1 Friday, 23 May 2014
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.36 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
9 This is the case IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 It was announced that the Prosecution wanted to raise a
12 preliminary issue -- Defence wanted to raise a preliminary issue. I
14 You are equal for me, Mr. Lukic.
15 MR. LUKIC: Thank you for that, Your Honour.
16 I just actually spoke with my learned friends from the opposite
17 side, and we agreed, I think, that if there is a large document envisaged
18 to be used during the cross-examination, that they would mark the page so
19 we do not have to print, like, 500 pages document, and we are actually
20 both willing to save some trees.
21 JUDGE ORIE: That's appreciated. And the trees will appreciate
22 it as well, I take it.
23 MR. LUKIC: So that's all we had.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, that sounds very reasonable and very
1 MR. GROOME: Good morning, Your Honours. I agree, it is
2 reasonable, and I have already sent an instruction to the team.
3 JUDGE ORIE: That's great.
4 Then could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bibles.
7 MS. BIBLES: Mr. President, I've advised the Defence in advance
8 that after reviewing the transcript from yesterday, there's going to be
9 no further cross-examination.
10 JUDGE ORIE: No further cross-examination.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 [The witness takes the stand]
13 WITNESS: BRANKO RADAN [Resumed]
14 [Witness answered through interpreter]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning --
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
17 JUDGE ORIE: -- Mr. Radan. I would like to remind you that
18 you're still bound by the solemn declaration that you've given at the
19 beginning of your testimony, that you'll speak the truth, the whole
20 truth, and nothing but the truth.
21 The Chamber was informed by the Prosecution that they have no
22 further questions for you in cross-examination. However, Judge Moloto
23 has a further question for you.
24 Questioned by the Court:
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning, Mr. Radan.
1 A. Good morning.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes at page 35, line 23, of the transcript, you
3 answered the question about the population of your area at the time. You
5 "Well, earlier we were not divided and there were no divisions by
6 where people lived, but we are talking about a majority. A majority of
7 Serbian population lived there. Most of the people were Serbs, but
8 previously nobody paid attention to that."
9 Do you remember that piece of evidence?
10 A. Yes, I remember that.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Now, you are -- in your statement, you
12 stated that: According to the population census of 1991, Novo Sarajevo
13 municipality had a total of 95.089 inhabitants, of whom 35 per cent were
14 Muslim, 35 per cent Serbs, and 9 per cent Croats, 15 per cent Yugoslavs,
15 and 4 per cent others.
16 Surely according to this statement, Serbs were not in the
17 majority. Would you agree?
18 A. In the entire municipality, according to the census, they were
19 not a majority, but there were quite a few of those who were not one or
20 the other or the third.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's not the point. The point is -- the Serbs
22 were not in the majority.
23 A. Yes.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: That is the correct position, not what you told us
1 A. Yesterday I spoke about the territory that was under the control
2 after the beginning of the war, under our control; that's what I'm
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: No. We were talking about Novo Sarajevo
5 municipality. But, anyway, thank you so much. I just wanted to get that
6 point clear. Thank you so much.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I have one question for you as well.
9 In paragraph 21 of your statement, you say:
10 "At the beginning of the war, most of the victims were killed by
11 sniper fire from the Muslim side," and then you explained that every
12 single day, from early morning until dusk, snipers fired from
13 Debelo Brdo, the Executive Council building, the, as you corrected it,
14 the Bristol Hotel, and so on.
15 If you are talking about the beginning of the war, what period of
16 time do you have exactly in mind?
17 A. The beginning from the war is from the 4th of the April, 1992.
18 That is to say, in that period all the way up until the end of the war,
19 there was sniper fire coming from those positions that I mentioned. It
20 was aimed at the territory of Grbavica and Vrace. That is to say, the
21 urban areas.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Since you used the language "at the beginning
23 of the war," I understood that this may have changed during the war. Or
24 were, during the whole of the war, most of the victims killed by sniper
25 fire from the Muslim side? And if not, up until what moment were most
1 victims killed by sniper fire from the Muslim side? I'm trying to get a
2 better idea of the time.
3 A. Combat activities took place practically every day. Whereas
4 sniper activity was sporadic, and that was a response to certain
5 individual situations.
6 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not -- you're telling apparently things you want
7 to tell me but you seem not to be very inclined to answer my questions.
8 You said:
9 "At the beginning of the war, most of the victims were killed by
10 sniper fire from the Muslim side."
11 Now let me first try to understand that.
12 Do you mean that more victims were killed by sniper fire from the
13 Muslim side than victims were killed by sniper fire from the Serb side?
14 Or are you comparing victims of sniper fire, victims of Muslim sniping
15 fire, against all victims of war, among the Muslims apparently killed by
16 Serb fire? What exactly are you telling us here?
17 A. In order to give you an accurate answer, I would need to
18 elaborate at length. It could not have been systematised in terms of
19 months, let alone days. So that is to say that all of this was caused by
20 the situation itself on the ground. That is to say, it was impossible to
21 say when there was more of what and so on and so forth. Special records
22 were kept by those who were keeping records of fatalities, the wounded
23 and so on. All of this information was not accessible to me every day.
24 These records were kept by the civilian police, the hospitals, the
25 funeral parlours, and so on, so they kept these records.
1 However, in order for me to give you a complete answer that I
2 wish, I'm not in a position to give it now. It could not have been
3 systematised in the following way. For example, to say during the first
4 month, this was the number of sniper victims from the sniper fire coming
5 from the Muslim side. We don't even have figures about the other side,
6 and the fighting was intensified as the situation developed. And from
7 the beginning of May, from Dobrovoljacka onwards, fighting was
8 intensified on all sides. That is to say, we were Grbavica. Grbavica
9 was surrounded on three sides; that is to say, from Debelo Brdo -- yes?
10 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you there for a second.
11 First of all, I'm re-reading again now the first line. In order
12 to understand what it means. It says:
13 "At the beginning of the war, most of the victims were killed by
14 sniper fire from the Muslim side."
15 Now, that can be understood in two different ways. The one is
16 most of the victims of snipers were killed by Muslim snipers. Or, and
17 that's another way of understanding this sentence, at the beginning of
18 the war, most of the victims, overall victims, were killed by sniper fire
19 from the Muslim side. So there the emphasise on whether it was sniper
20 fire or any other fire, that's a way of understanding it. Whereas the
21 first way of understanding this language would be more people killed by
22 sniper fire by the Muslims than people were killed by sniper fire from
23 the Serbs.
24 Now, which of the two are you referring to here?
25 A. If we focus on this statement, "in the beginning of the war,"
1 then, if we exclude the incident in Dobrovoljacka, the beginning of the
2 war, if we exclude that, then we could say that there were more victims
3 from sniper fire in the beginning of the war. That is to say, from the
4 Muslim side.
5 JUDGE ORIE: It's still unclear. Do you intend to say more
6 people were killed by sniper fire than by shelling, by, whatever, other
7 cause of death. Is that what you want to say? Or do you want to say
8 there were more victims by sniper fire fired by Muslims than there were
9 victims from sniper fire fired by Serbs?
10 Which of the two is -- what do you tell us in this sentence?
11 What are you comparing?
12 A. I cannot give you a comparison as to how many casualties there
13 were on the Muslim side.
14 JUDGE ORIE: If you say "most of the victims were killed by,"
15 that is already a comparison. That is more yes than no.
16 Now, more yes what than --
17 A. I'm sorry. This is a comparison only on our side. That is the
18 information we had available. How many victims there were, how many
19 people were killed in combat, and how many were killed by sniper fire.
20 So this was just on our side. It was impossible to carry out any kind of
21 comparing with the other side.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That clarifies a rather unclear sentence. So
23 what you're telling us is that more people died from sniper fire than
24 from combat or shelling or whatever other violence of war. It was sniper
25 fire that caused most victims. And you can't compare that with what
1 happened on the other side, whether there were more victims of sniper
2 fire than shelling or more victims from shelling, or how many at all, you
3 wouldn't know. That clarifies the matter considerably for me.
4 Please proceed.
5 Judge Fluegge has one or more questions for you.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Follow-up question to this issue.
7 You just said -- a minute ago you told us that you base your
8 information on the reports which were filed, the -- the records of your
9 municipality from the hospitals, and so on. Is that the -- the source of
10 information, or do you base it on your own observation?
11 A. Only on the basis of relevant records. My observations cannot
12 cover the entire territory. So all of this was summed up from one period
13 to another. It was either on a weekly basis or reports submitted to the
14 Assembly, so these were just -- this was just relevant information that
15 was collected from the police, from funeral parlours and so on. So only
16 from these relevant sources, not based on my observations.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And these reports and written information, was
18 that related only to Novo Sarajevo, to your municipality, or did you
19 receive information also from other parts of the entire region?
20 A. It was summed up at the level of the entire republic. I just had
21 information in the territory of the municipality of Novo Sarajevo.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: If you say "the entire republic," do you refer to
23 the Republika Srpska?
24 A. Yes, Republika Srpska.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
1 JUDGE ORIE: I have one follow-up question.
2 If you're talking about medical records and I'll be transparent,
3 I've seen a few in my life, especially over the last ten years but also
4 in this case. Often medical records say: Killed by a bullet. Vulnus
5 sclopetarium or something like that. It comes immediately in Latin to my
6 mind. How can you say that that is then someone killed by a sniper? I
7 mean, what's the -- how could you draw any such conclusions on the basis
8 of such medical records?
9 A. With all due respect for your assertion, I was never in a
10 position to see that kind of very succinct report just saying: Killed by
11 a bullet. Usually there's a description when and where this happened,
12 whether somebody was just a passer-by was killed by sniper or whether
13 somebody was killed in combat and so on. But not just killed by a
14 bullet. I was not in a position to see a report like that. This was
15 done by serious people who knew why they were doing this, and they
16 realised that these records were being collected that would be relevant
17 for the families involved and also later for those dealing with war
18 victims and so on.
19 JUDGE ORIE: I was mainly referring to the strict medical
20 reports. That is, what the doctor says when a body is brought in, into
21 the hospital. But even if you have a broader report, is it -- I've heard
22 often that people may have been killed by a stray bullet or by -- or that
23 there was a military target nearby. How can you be so sure on the basis
24 of those reports that the fire was sniper fire?
25 A. I did not go into that. I was not the one who would say whether
1 the report was right or not. So those who wrote reports took an oath, as
2 persons in the field of medicine, so they should write up everything they
3 know. A stray bullet can also be identified as a bullet coming from a
4 sniper or in combat. I just had an opportunity to see things stated that
5 had actually happened and what the cause of death was, and so on.
6 JUDGE ORIE: So you say it depends in every individual case on
7 the circumstances whether or not you can determine whether it was a
8 bullet fired by a sniper or whether it was a bullet fired by any other
9 combatant or person?
10 A. Yes, precisely.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Fluegge has one or more questions for you.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Now one additional question to that.
14 How can a medical doctor in his report establish the ethnicity of
15 the sniper?
16 A. Well, it wasn't only medical doctors who were on this commission
17 that kept the records. The doctor would not be the one who would assess
18 the bullet and so on and so forth. This is being handed over to those
19 who are professionals, who can establish the calibre of the ammunition
20 involved, and at that time people knew who had what kind of ammunition,
21 so this was the source on the basis of which it could be established with
22 approximate accuracy whose bullet this was and where it had come from.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: At that point in time, at the beginning of the
24 war, was it possible to distinguish by the ammunition from which side,
25 from the Serb side or the Muslim side, the bullet was fired? Did they
1 really have different ammunition at that time?
2 A. Well, not fully. Not 100 per cent. But it was known where these
3 positions were from which fire had been coming. Professionals could
4 establish this approximately, what the origin of the ammunition was and
5 where it might have come from.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, any need for further questions?
8 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you. I will have to go
9 through some documents the Prosecution used yesterday.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please do so.
11 Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:
12 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Radan.
13 A. Good morning.
14 Q. We're not going to take very long today. You'll be free to go
15 soon. I'm just going to ask you briefly about what the Judges had asked
16 you about.
17 Did you go into details of investigations or did you just take
18 what other services had already established without any additional
20 A. I fully trusted those who compiled those reports. I'm not the
21 one who appointed them. Somebody else was in charge of that and what was
22 taken into account was that these should be professional people and that
23 they should work with full responsibility. So I fully trusted their
24 reports without the right or obligation to double-check that.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like to ask that we be
2 shown in e-court P6524, a Prosecution Exhibit.
3 Q. I'm going to take it in the same order as the Prosecution did
4 yesterday. Of course, the documents that I will be using, that is.
5 Do you see the document?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Are you able to read it without your glasses?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Well, I cannot.
10 A. Well, my sight is preserved.
11 Q. This is a document from the 5th of June, 1992. It's a report on
12 the activities. And, under item 3, it says accommodation of the
13 population and refugees are mentioned. All refugees from the occupied
14 territory and people who were left homeless, accommodation was provided
15 for them.
16 Who are these refugees? On the 5th of June, 1992.
17 A. These were mostly refugees who managed, who managed to cross into
18 our territory from the territory that was under the control of the
19 so-called Bosnia and Herzegovina Army. Armija. So people from Sarajevo.
20 Q. And what was the ethnicity of those people who are referred to as
21 refugees in this document?
22 A. Mostly they were Serbs. Serbs who were fleeing to our territory.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can I look at the next page, please,
24 where we're going to focus on paragraph (f).
25 Q. This paragraph describes a shop under the control of the
1 Crisis Staff where people can buy goods at prices set by the
2 Executive Board. Could anybody buy goods in this shop, regardless of
3 their ethnicity?
4 A. We did not discriminate or divide people along ethnic lines. We
5 didn't do that anywhere, and we did not do that here either. Nobody
6 asked any questions of people who came to buy goods. The shop was under
7 the control of the Crisis Staff and the Executive Board because, at that
8 time, we did not have any company that could engage in such trade. So
9 there was no division. We didn't discriminate among people in this shop
10 or anywhere else.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at the following page,
13 please, where we will look at paragraph 6 -- item 6.
14 Q. The paragraph says that frequently -- citizens of all
15 nationalities assemble frequently, especially in Grbavica and our public
16 attitude is very correct. We appoint a head of every building.
17 Did you know how often were these meeting held? If you know, if
18 you don't --
19 A. These meetings were not scheduled at certain times. They would
20 just be held as needed, and the main goal was not to alarm the
21 population, to calm the population. And if you permit me, I'm also going
22 to say that at the beginning or shortly before the war broke out, we had
23 barbecue barricades in response to the other barricades. And we called
24 our citizens of other ethnic groups to socialise so that we can break
25 down this fear, these stereotypes, and this was something filmed by
1 different TV stations, federal ones, our TV stations, and it was
3 Q. Excuse me. In the same paragraph, and there's a sentence that
4 the Prosecution put a question to you about, and said:
5 "Secretly the police applied the usual procedure towards people
6 who were engaged in military activities against us."
7 First, let me ask you this: Did you take part in any way in the
8 police procedures relating to people engaged in military activities
9 evidently here against us, meaning against the Serbian side?
10 A. No, I never took part in any activities like that, but we had the
11 military police, the civilian police force. We had a special commission
12 that looked into specific incidents. These -- this data was summarised
13 for the purposes of defence and also in order to calm down the situation
14 in the field, on the ground.
15 Q. And then in the next sentence you say -- actually, the document
17 "We informed the Muslims that they would be safe if they were
18 militarily neutral towards us, and so far the situation has been good."
19 Could you please tell us how you informed the Muslims that they
20 would be safe? Did you send them a message?
21 A. Well, the Muslims could feel that they were safe because they
22 were not separate in any way from Serbs and Croats. There was no
23 discrimination. They were equal in relation to pensions, humanitarian
24 aid, medical services, the central kitchens where milk was distributed
25 every day to all citizens who needed the milk. They could not feel in
1 any way that they were being discriminated against in relation to Serbs
2 or anyone else. Thus, this was our way of showing that all citizens were
3 the same to us and that the authorities that I was a part of were
4 behaving in a legal manner.
5 Q. The next sentence towards the end of the document says:
6 "We visited the nunnery in Gornji Kovacici."
7 These nuns, what ethnic group did they belong to?
8 A. These were Catholic nuns. They had everything they needed.
9 Local Serbs, their neighbours, took care of them. At one time, because
10 they were shelling on the other side, they said that they wanted to pull
11 back from that place, but I personally went and asked them that, if they
12 wanted to, we could relocate them but that they should remain on our
13 territory. That time they did stay, but then later they didn't feel safe
14 anymore and so they moved to a different location. And with the
15 co-operation of Colonel Zarkovic, they crossed to the other side and went
16 to Kiseljak. This is what I know about that.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, it does appear your question was not
18 answered. You asked about ethnicity; you were told about the region.
19 MR. LUKIC: In Balkans it is very often mixed, but I will repeat
20 my question.
21 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Radan, could you please answer.
22 A. They were Croats. Croats.
23 Q. Thank you. Throughout the war, in the Novo Sarajevo
24 municipality, in Grbavica, that was under Serb control, did any Muslims
25 remain there throughout the entire war?
1 A. Yes. According to our records, there was about 1.350 to 1.450 or
2 1.500 who -- Muslims who were there at the end of the war.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we just briefly look at the next
5 page in the same document. We're going to look at paragraph 2.
6 Q. We see here on this page - we don't need to read everything - but
7 there was a municipality by the president of the Presidency of
8 Republika Srpska to form War Presidencies. And then the document states
9 that there was no need for that in the Novo Sarajevo municipality area.
10 But a Municipal Assembly is suggested, in turn, that it should be
11 established. The Novo Sarajevo Municipal Assembly existed before the war
12 also; is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. So why was there a need for it to be formed again?
15 A. Because of the division and polarisation, all the main municipal
16 infrastructure in Novo Sarajevo was on the other side, in the federal
17 part. All the institutions, the Municipal Assembly were all on that
18 side. And the things that we had at our disposal, we had about
19 25 councilmen who remained in that area, so there was an initiative to
20 form the municipality of Novo Sarajevo, Serb Novo Sarajevo, again, and we
21 assembled all the councilmen who were in our territory, and we held a
22 founding Assembly session, and that, in turn, could elect all the other
23 structures of authority.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we look at P352 in e-court,
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we leave this document. A few minutes ago
3 you told us that you informed the Muslims in your area that everything
4 is -- is okay and there was no discrimination and everybody was prepared
5 to stay.
6 Now you're saying the Municipal Assembly had to be constituted
7 consisting of the Serb municipal -- Municipal Assembly because of all the
8 divisions. Are you able to distinguish exactly at what stage this took
9 place, if -- I don't see why there should be a -- a Serb-only Municipal
10 Assembly if relations were as good as you explained them.
11 Can you just clarify that little apparent inconsistency.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, it was not the desire
13 of the Serb population to undergo divisions. It was not at our
14 initiative. The divisions - I don't want to go back to dates now and
15 when the war broke out - but the division and the name of the
16 Novo Sarajevo Serb municipality is a legal heritage. In order for us to
17 be legal, to have legal status, we had to form our own municipality.
18 This was a conclusion of the Assembly of the Serbian Republic of
19 Bosnia and Herzegovina. So that is the basis on which we formed it.
20 The municipality councilmen were all Serbs because no Muslim or
21 Croat councilmen happened to be on our territory. Had they remained on
22 our territory, we would have co-opted them into this Serbian municipality
23 of Novo Sarajevo.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: My question wasn't answered. Anyway --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, have you done with the document?
1 MR. LUKIC: Yes, I am.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Then I would have a few questions in relation to the
4 The document we were just discussing says something about food
5 supplies. That's the first page. But before going to that, first,
6 somewhere in the document "fighters" are mentioned. Fighters. Do I
7 understand them to be fighters in the -- in your armed forces?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At this point in time it was still
9 the Territorial Defence. The Army of Republika Srpska had not been
10 formed yet. It was still the Territorial Defence.
11 JUDGE ORIE: 22nd of June. But my question was not whether it
12 was TO or VRS on the 22nd of June. My question was whether it was your
13 armed forces, that is, Serb, whether TO or VRS, I'm not -- were these
14 Serb armed forces when you referred to "fighters"?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For the most part. For the most
16 part. Almost 100 per cent.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Now, then, I take you back to the food
18 supplies. Food will be supplied, there was a list of civilians, which --
19 and I'm talking about food supplies, that is under 2 (b) on the first
20 page of this document. Lists of civilians were made, and food supplies
21 amounting to 50 per cent of peacetime supplies were distributed to those
22 on the lists.
23 Then it says:
24 "The basic criterion was to provide food for the families of
25 fighters and refugees from the occupied territory."
1 Now, you've explained to us that "fighters" were Serb fighters.
2 You earlier explained to us that "refugees" were Serbs which had fled
3 occupied territory. So they got food. Others didn't get food. At least
4 it doesn't say anything about Muslims or -- it's just families of your
5 own fighters and your refugees, they would get food, no one else. Or at
6 least that was not the criterion.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this same report,
8 under 1, states that it was necessary to form local commune
9 Crisis Staffs. There were ten local communes in Novo Sarajevo
10 municipality, and there were local commune commissioners who were obliged
11 to make lists. This was mostly a rural area. They had to make lists of
12 families that needed assistance in this ratio as you mentioned. But the
13 urban part, where Muslims and Croats lived, were also on the lists,
14 according to different areas of the local communes. Nobody was excepted
15 from receiving this aid. Everybody received what they were supposed to
16 receive. Serb, Muslim, Croats --
17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please
18 repeat the names of the communes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Could you repeat the names of the communes you
20 mentioned earlier.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As it says: Lukavica -- 1,
22 Lukavica; 2, Tilava; Petrovici; Miljevici; Studenkovici; Kovacici,
23 Gornji Kovacici, Donji; Jewish cemetery; Grbavica 1; Grbavica 2; Vraca 1;
24 Vraca 2; Petrovacka Street. These were all local communes that had to
25 keep records about those killed on the ground. They were the ones who
1 would report on the situations first and, among other things, it was
2 their duty to deal with humanitarian aid, the fair distribution of
3 humanitarian aid.
4 JUDGE ORIE: I put to you that what you're telling us is not in
5 line with what we see in this document, and I'm focussing now on the
6 paragraph on food, which says: "Supplies were distributed to those on
7 the lists," and who would be selected and what the criterion was, was a
8 specific group.
9 Now you are telling us that it was different than what is
10 described here. Is that how I have to understand your testimony?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I claim is what I've just
12 said. I said what I know for a fact. There was no discrimination at
13 all. And in the last paragraph, when it says what the criterion was, was
14 to feed refugees from occupied areas. They were mostly hailed from rural
15 areas. Whereas the urban parts where Muslims and Croatians remained, I
16 claim that they received the same things that I received in Vrace, which
17 is also another urban part. And I guarantee that that was so. My
18 neighbours, both Croats and Muslims - and you can check that because they
19 are still alive, they are still there - they received the same rations as
20 I did. They didn't receive a kilo more or less than the rest of us
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's not what the document tells us, but you
23 say that is what happened in reality. Is that how I have to understand
24 your -- because that leads me to my other question. You said there was
25 no discrimination. Muslims could not feel unsafe. That's what you said.
1 Due to the circumstances, there was no reason, I understand you to say,
2 to feel unsafe.
3 At the same time, you told us yesterday that part of the criminal
4 activities - group of nine, including Batko - that they primarily
5 targeted Muslims, and only after that, Serbs, and that no adequate action
6 was taken in time. That's one thing you told us.
7 Yesterday you also told us that there was a kind of a spontaneous
8 agreement of exchange, but it wasn't real exchange but one group is
9 moving to one side, another group moving to the other side of the
10 confrontation lines; whereas, in documents, it is called "expulsion." It
11 was reported in the Republika Srpska press as expulsion.
12 Therefore, I'm struggling. I'm telling you to find out what
13 explains your almost idyllic picture you're giving us and the documentary
14 evidence which gives a different picture. And I found -- find that now
15 again in relation to the food distribution, the food supplies, what I see
16 on paper, is different from what you're telling us. So it's not only in
17 relation to the food supplies but on the various subjects that you are
18 giving a picture which is not the same as we find in these documents.
19 Do you have an explanation for these differences in perception
20 between you and those who were creating these press reports and these
21 documents? Do you have an explanation for that?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you will allow me, I tried to do
23 that yesterday as well, but I didn't have the time to explain things
25 When it comes to the freedom of movement, i.e.,
1 non-discrimination, it was a war, so nobody could have been at ease, and
2 that applied to Muslims, Croats and Serbs alike. But the care was the
3 same for all three ethnicities given the situation we were in. It was a
4 war, and according to the very definition of a war, nobody can feel at
5 ease, nobody can feel relaxed.
6 Second of all, regardless of this document, but this document
7 doesn't say that Muslims and Croats didn't receive the same things as the
8 Serbs, so even this document says that.
9 Furthermore, you say that the media, the Serbian media, that is,
10 said that the -- that the Muslims had been expelled. In the SRNA report
11 on the 1st of October, which was only one day later, it doesn't say
12 clearly. They were just opinions, there was just a summary of all the
13 opinions of all of those who were interviewed about what they knew. I
14 told you what I know and this is the most approximate description of the
15 situation that took place on the 30th September. And I claim that
16 Muslims were not expelled on that day.
17 I had an occasion to see reports by the other side. None of the
18 300 Muslims who -- were cited there said that they were ill-treated or
19 expelled by us, i.e., by the other side. They provided those statements
20 on that same afternoon to some institutions, including UNPROFOR and the
21 Red Cross, and they never said that it was due to ill-treatment that they
22 crossed over or that they were expelled.
23 And as for the exchange that I spoke about, I said that it was a
24 gesture of good will and that Muslims were allowed to cross over as a
25 gesture of good will. At the same time, on 15th of November, some 15 or
1 20 buses were allowed to cross over to the territory of Republika Srpska.
2 JUDGE ORIE: What you're doing at this moment is rather repeating
3 what you said before rather than explaining the apparent difference in
4 the perception of those who created reports and press messages and your
5 personal experience. I leave it to that.
6 Mr. Lukic, I intervened when you said you had dealt with the
7 document. Any further questions for the witness?
8 MR. LUKIC: Yes, of course.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
10 MR. LUKIC: Not on this document, though.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, no --
12 MR. LUKIC: It's the break time.
13 JUDGE ORIE: We could take the break. Could you give us an
14 estimate as to how much time you would need after the break.
15 MR. LUKIC: Not if you continue helping me.
16 JUDGE ORIE: No, no, I mean time you use, not time I use.
17 MR. LUKIC: Less than you use.
18 JUDGE ORIE: You don't know what I have on my mind what time I
19 still want to use.
20 MR. LUKIC: Probably 15 minutes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: 15 minutes. Okay, then we'll keep an eye on that.
22 We first take a break, but not until after the witness has been
23 escorted out of the courtroom.
24 [The witness stands down]
25 JUDGE ORIE: And we'll resume at ten minutes to 11.00.
1 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.
2 --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, while we're waiting for the witness to
4 come in, the Chamber observed that --
5 [Defence counsel confer]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic. Mr. Lukic, the Chamber observed that
7 sometimes there seemed to be inconsistencies, smaller ones or bigger
8 ones, between documentary evidence we have received and statement of the
9 witness. And then in the examination of the witness he sometimes refers
10 to materials which -- on which he relies, and, of course, it would
11 certainly help to assist the Chamber to have access to those materials so
12 as to be better able to assess the weight to be given to the documents
13 the witness is contradicting, documents that could support the witness's
15 [The witness takes the stand]
16 JUDGE ORIE: But, meanwhile, Mr. Lukic, you may proceed.
17 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Radan, let's continue.
19 Yesterday the Prosecutor showed you a document which I would like
20 to call up.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] P352. P352.
22 Q. You will see that it is a notebook. We can see typed-up versions
23 of that notebook.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm interested in page 305 in B/C/S
25 version and page 296 in English. These are not the same numbers I found
1 earlier this morning in e-court and that version is used by the Defence.
2 Let's return one page. Let's go back one page in B/C/S. I'm
3 satisfied with the English page.
4 JUDGE ORIE: We're now looking at B/C/S page 304 in e-court, and
5 English 296 in e-court.
6 MR. LUKIC: That's right. Now we have everything on the screen
7 what we need.
8 Q. [Interpretation] The Prosecutor showed you the same document. It
9 deals with a meeting that was held on the 11th of May, 1992. It says
10 here that Colonel Kovacevic reported that he had been the brains of the
11 weapons distribution for ten months and that, up to then, 69.000 Serbs
12 had been armed.
13 At that time, JNA members who responded to mobilisation calls,
14 what was their ethnicity?
15 A. They were exclusively Serbs. Because Alija Izetbegovic invited
16 Muslims not to join the army or the Territorial Defence.
17 Q. And then in the following sentence, we read that
18 Colonel Kovacevic asks for the chief of the -- chief of logistics to be
19 kept in his position. In the first sentence of his presentation, you can
20 see that he was the assistant commander for logistics, or PkPo, at the
21 Command of the 2nd Military District. I don't know how much you know
22 about military matters.
23 A. Very little. Let me tell you straight away that I don't know
24 much about that.
25 Q. So you wouldn't know whether the procurement of weapons for units
1 was within the purview of that man?
2 A. No, I was a foot soldier. I never received any rank, so I really
3 wouldn't know.
4 Q. Thank you. Let's move on.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The following document is P3030.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, could you please activate your
9 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
10 Q. [Interpretation] These are conclusions. There is an accompanying
11 letter, and it says that enclosed with the document, the requested
12 assessment with annexes concerning the situation and problems in the
13 territory of Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina is being sent.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And can we now go to the following
15 page. The relevant period is March 1992 and the period preceding that.
16 Q. I'm interested in page 4, the same page that the Prosecutor
17 showed you.
18 MR. LUKIC: In English version, we need previous page, please.
19 Can you go one page back in English version.
20 JUDGE ORIE: We're now at page 3 in the English version in
22 MR. LUKIC: I don't know how this happened, but we need next page
23 in -- in English. I don't know if --
24 JUDGE ORIE: You mean next to 3 or next to 4?
25 MR. LUKIC: Next to 3. It's -- it's top of the page.
1 JUDGE ORIE: That is 4.
2 MR. LUKIC: Second. Where it says "second," yeah.
3 Q. [Interpretation] So this was put to you yesterday, and it says
4 here in this report:
5 "The Serb people opted for Yugoslavia. If this option is not
6 viable, only a confederal Bosnia and Herzegovina would be taken into
8 "Quite simply a third option does not exist.
9 "The leadership of the Serb people and the Serb people as a whole
10 are fully prepared to -- for war, should the confederal option not be
12 As for this war, to the best of your knowledge, were the Serbs
13 preparing for it through attempts to ruin the common country, destroy it,
14 or preserve it?
15 A. To the best of my knowledge, and I follow this carefully, reports
16 from the Assembly, and I also attended some meetings, Serbs invested all
17 of their energy to remain in Yugoslavia. If all of Yugoslavia could not
18 remain, then Bosnia-Herzegovina should be in Yugoslavia nevertheless, and
19 not in any variant whatsoever did they consider war then or did they opt
20 for war. So all of this that is stated under number 2 is true. That is
21 to say that every effort should be made to prevent a war. If a war were
22 to happen, then we should defend ourselves because others wanted
23 something different.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, could I ask the witness -- the document
25 doesn't say: "If finally we are attacked." The document says:
1 "The Serbian leadership and the Serbian people are fully prepared
2 to wage a war."
3 You're telling us something which is -- and I'm going back to
4 what I said earlier, you're giving us a picture, right or wrong, I'm not
5 giving any opinion about that, but which is totally different from what
6 the text of this document says. "Fully prepared to wage a war."
7 Wage a war is -- is to engage in a war and not if we are
8 attacked, we have to defend ourselves. That's -- that's not the same
9 language. I'm just pointing it to you so that you are aware that at
10 least it may be perceived in a different way as you explain it, on the
11 basis of the text.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I? Would you allow me just one
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This document says that there are
16 three options on the table. That is to say, if not a single one of the
17 three is to be used, then the Serbs would be ready for war but they would
18 never start it first.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Well, that's not what the document says. It says
20 if -- first of all, it says a third option simply does not exist.
21 Therefore, it only gives two options.
22 And then it says: "If what we consider appropriate is not
23 accepted, we are ready -- we are fully prepared to wage a war."
24 Now I'm not giving any opinion about whether it was justified or
25 not, but the way in which you translate it seems to be not fully
1 consistent with the language of that document. Unless you want to tell
2 us, you would never start it because you would first try other peaceful
3 means to settle the issues; but if you would be unsuccessful, that you
4 would then wage a war, although you would not start by considering waging
5 a war but you would start by seeking peaceful solutions.
6 If that is what you want to tell us then -- then it seems to be
7 more in line with the text which is before us.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely, just as you had put it.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Which is not the same as what you said but ...
10 we now understand at least what you intended to say.
11 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
12 MR. LUKIC: I just want to clarify one thing. My question was
13 not based only on this document. And I'll read to you, Your Honours, my
15 My question, in line 10, page 26, says:
16 "As for this war, to the best of your knowledge, not based on
17 this document, were the Serbs preparing for it through attempts to ruin
18 the common country or to save it," but we cannot see in the transcript
19 "or to save it."
20 So my question was based on the knowledge of this witness, so
21 there was no need to bring him back strictly to this document. The
22 Prosecution wanted to stick to this document. That was not my intention
23 and that was not the question I posed to the witness and he was not
24 answering that question. He was answering my question.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic --
1 MR. LUKIC: And I asked him about his --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, you may have misunderstood me --
3 MR. LUKIC: I didn't. Trust me.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. If you understood me well, then there is no
5 need to further explain, isn't there.
6 Let's move on. What I did is I did put to the witness that what
7 he answered to your question was inconsistent as far as language is
8 concerned with what we find in a document. And that is a perfectly
9 adequate question, I would say. Even if your question didn't take him to
10 that document, I can take him to the document when he has answered your
11 question and to see whether his answer is consistent with what we see in
12 this document.
13 Let's move on.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Lukic, may I draw your attention to line 17
15 of page 26.
16 The witness in response to your question said:
17 "So all of this that is stated under number 2 of the document."
18 He related his answer to this document in front of us.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I may also add, Mr. Lukic, you asked the
20 question you asked after you showed the witness this document and
21 referred him to what the Prosecutor said and that is why your question,
22 broader as it might be, cannot be separated from this document because
23 you relate it to this document.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's move on, and let's try to get -- to get
25 the complete answers to all the questions we may have.
1 Please proceed.
2 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Q. [Interpretation] Your knowledge about the situation in the
4 municipality of Novo Sarajevo, is it restricted? And do you draw on all
5 of your knowledge just from this document or is your knowledge about what
6 happened in your municipality broader than what can be found in this
8 A. With all due respect do this document, this is the first time I
9 see it, so I could not draw my knowledge on this document. I tried to
10 draw my knowledge from many other documents and from the media and talks
11 and broader and narrower knowledge. So, with all due respect, this
12 document is not the only source of my information.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, in this context, I repeat what I said
14 earlier. If the witness relies on other documentation, then, of course,
15 the Chamber is interested to see that documentation so as to further
16 support the evidence of this witness.
17 Please proceed.
18 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
19 Q. [Interpretation] I'm not going to put any more questions to on
20 the basis of this document because, as you said, this is the first time
21 you see it. But on the other page, there is this math as to how many
22 people were armed through corps, 62.000 --
23 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could Mr. Lukic repeat the
24 numbers. This is too fast for interpretation.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please repeat, Mr. --
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] So according to corps or, rather,
2 through corps, these were corps of the then-JNA, the 9th Corps, the
3 10th Corps, the 5th Corp, the 17th Corps, and the 4th Corps. The total
4 number of people armed was 62.690 persons. And it is stated within the
5 4th Military District there is an additional 6.500 persons in volunteer
6 units which brings to us a grand total of 62.190 and that is the number
7 that is referred to in the report of Colonel --
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I interrupt? May I interrupt you, Mr. Lukic?
9 I'm lost. You said to the witness you're not going to further ask him
10 about this document because it's the first time he sees. And then you
11 are referring to figures and I'm not quite sure where you are reading
13 MR. LUKIC: I just want to draw your attention what this
14 document --
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which document?
16 MR. LUKIC: The same document that's on the screen.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: But is it on this page where we are?
18 MR. LUKIC: It's not.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Take us to the page, please.
20 MR. LUKIC: I didn't want to torture the witness. I wanted to
21 cut it short, but we can go to the page. It's page 5 in B/C/S.
22 JUDGE ORIE: If you read it, the Chamber is entitled to know
23 where you're reading from.
24 MR. LUKIC: Page 5 in B/C/S. I hope it's the same page in
25 English version. It's the next page in English [overlapping speakers] --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Page 6, perhaps.
2 MR. LUKIC: Yeah. We can see numbers, one below the other.
3 Yeah, now we have it in the middle of the page.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: What were you saying about the numbers?
5 MR. LUKIC: Under (d), number of men in the corps zones.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Which page in B/C/S? It's not the right page.
7 MR. LUKIC: It's page probably 6.
8 JUDGE ORIE: It's --
9 MR. LUKIC: It's page 5 in the document.
10 JUDGE ORIE: It's page 6 in e-court.
11 MR. LUKIC: Must be -- must be 7 --
12 JUDGE ORIE: We have it before us.
13 MR. LUKIC: 7 in B/C/S, sorry. It was double pages. Then the
14 next one again. There is some double pages in this document, in e-court.
15 JUDGE ORIE: In e-court, it's supposed to be --
16 MR. LUKIC: Now we have it on the top of the page.
17 JUDGE ORIE: That's page -- page 8 in B/C/S e-court.
18 Let me just -- Mr. Lukic, you referred to weapons being
19 distributed through the corps, whereas I find JNA distributed so many
20 weapons, and the SDS --
21 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: But -- okay. We'll carefully read what you have
23 drawn our attention to. But this is not just about distribution of
24 weapons through the corps. It is the number of men in the zones of
25 responsibility of the corps, and it apparently refers to distribution of
1 weapons by the JNA, without further details as how they were distributed
2 by the JNA, and by the SDS. And, further, it says something about the
3 position of volunteers, and that the volunteer units are not part of the
4 JNA and the TO establishment structure.
5 So -- so there's a lot of information apparently there which one
6 would need to analyse very carefully before one could draw any
7 conclusions from it.
8 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, that's why I just draw your attention to
9 this page, and I know that I cannot ask this witness nothing about --
10 JUDGE ORIE: No, that's fine. Perhaps at a later moment then you
11 may further elaborate on what is found in this part of this document.
12 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
14 MR. LUKIC: May I move on?
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 MR. LUKIC: Thank you. Next document we need is P353.
17 [Interpretation] This is a notebook. We need the page that the
18 Prosecution showed you: B/C/S page 307. And, in the English version,
19 page 308.
20 [In English] I was checking the handwritten version, and
21 obviously in B/C/S the pages are not the same. We have to go back one
22 page in B/C/S version. Yeah, that's it. We need middle of the page
23 where Koljevic is reporting this meeting. It's recorded that it's
24 meeting from 10th of July, 1992.
25 Q. [Interpretation] You were told -- well, it says here, Koljevic is
1 saying: "Batko is terrorising Grbavica, must be arrested."
2 A. Arrested.
3 Q. Yes, arrested. Through this sentence -- I think it's clear. I
4 don't even think I have to ask you. I think it's clear that the army is
5 not giving assistance or support to this Batko who is being discussed.
6 A. Yes, and --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, if you're telling to the witness it's
8 clear and that you don't have to ask questions, then you should move on
9 to --
10 MR. LUKIC: But I have another one.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. But that's not what happened. Okay. You
12 have another question. Could you please put that question to the
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Well, yes, perhaps, if the
15 Trial Chamber thinks I should put that question.
16 Q. When somebody asks for an arrest, is that support or is that an
17 attempt to work against that person?
18 A. Is that a question for me?
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. Well, everything here fits in with the indications or the
21 intentions that we had as we were working on the ground. It's all
23 Q. Yes, that was my second question, actually. You anticipated it.
24 We are now finished with this document.
25 Mr. Radan, thank you very much. Even though I already said it
1 before that I didn't have any questions, now I really mean it. I have no
2 further questions for you. Thank you.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
4 Have the questions triggered any need for further questions,
5 Ms. Bibles?
6 MS. BIBLES: No, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: This means -- one second, please.
8 This means, Mr. Radan, that we are at the end of your examination
9 as a witness. I'd like to thank you very much for -- first of all, for
10 coming to The Hague, and, second, for having answered all the questions
11 that were put to you by the parties or by the Bench, and I wish you a
12 safe return home again.
13 You may follow the usher.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
15 [The witness withdrew]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Before the Defence will be invited to call its next
17 witness, I would like to deal with a few procedural matters. Perhaps
18 then take a break and then start the examination of the next witness
19 after the break.
20 I first would like to deal with a few matters in relation to the
21 revised witness list which was filed by the Defence.
22 The witness and exhibit lists were filed a few minutes after the
23 deadline that was set by the Chamber, and they received, as a result, the
24 filing date of the 19th of May, 2014, but despite this, the Chamber
25 accepts this late filing.
1 For some of the witnesses who are indicated to testify as
2 Rule 94 bis witness, that is, experts, the Chamber wondered whether the
3 gist of their evidence is really their expertise or, rather, their
4 factual observations. I just, in this context, note entries numbers 36,
5 51, 80, 83, 104, and 184. But I leave the matter for the time being in
6 the hands of the parties.
7 The Chamber notes that the Defence - and that is in line with the
8 Chamber's Rule 73 ter decision - has cut down the times for
9 examination-in-chief for many witnesses. Other than removing
10 Prosecution [sic] witnesses from its list, the Defence has removed
11 Witnesses GRM086, GRM120, and GRM313, but then replaced these with two
12 new witnesses, GRM337 and GRM338. The Defence has not significantly
13 reduced the number of witnesses, and the Chamber wonders whether this may
14 also have led to somewhat unrealistically low estimates for some of the
15 witnesses. Of course, we do encourage the efficient examination of
16 witnesses but just by striking minutes, you have not yet shortened a
17 testimony of a witness.
18 The Chamber further notes that the time claimed for expert
19 witnesses - I'm referring to GRM036, GRM049, GRM083, GRM087, GRM109,
20 GRM134, and GRM140, GRM191, and GRM193 - is 30 minutes for each of these
21 experts. If that means that the Defence will mainly rely on expert
22 reports and would have no further questions for those experts, then, of
23 course, it may be a very efficient way of proceeding.
24 If, however, it would be on the back of your mind also to examine
25 those witnesses on perhaps sometimes complex expert issues, then one
1 could wonder whether 30 minutes is a realistic estimate for the time
2 needed for that, and the Chamber would like the Defence to thoroughly
3 think about such issues.
4 For Witness GRM045, the witness list indicates an estimated time
5 for examination-in-chief of 30 minutes. However, the mode of testimony
6 for this witness is Rule 92 bis, and the Defence is invited to clarify
7 this contradiction.
8 For the last item, I'd like to discuss -- I would like to move
9 into private session.
10 [Private session]
11 Pages 21428-21432 redacted. Private session.
7 [Open session]
8 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 For the public record, the Chamber has just issued an oral
11 decision whereby it ordered, proprio motu, pursuant to Rule 75(A) of the
12 Rules, that the testimony of Witness RM019 remains in closed session.
13 We take a break, and I also take it that the Defence will be
14 ready to call its next witness after the break.
15 MR. IVETIC: We will, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Then we will take a break, and we resume at
17 ten minutes past 12.00.
18 --- Recess taken at 11.47 a.m.
19 --- On resuming at 12.11 p.m.
20 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber was informed that the Prosecution would
21 like to raise a preliminary matter.
22 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honours, just briefly.
23 In line with our earlier discussions about Rule 90(E), I do
24 inform the Chamber that this witness did receive a 90(E) warning when he
25 testified before the Karadzic case. With respect to my examination of
1 him, I do intend to ask him about his involvement in shelling
2 Scheduled Incident G4. He was the legal advisor for the brigade during
3 the shelling incident. We'll ask him specific questions about that.
4 Thank you.
5 JUDGE ORIE: It might not be wise to give him, then, that warning
6 in the beginning, in a general sense. But if you would indicate when you
7 would like me to inform the witness -- well, whether it's a warning or
8 whether it's informing him, that's -- that's two ways of saying the same
10 MR. GROOME: Right. I will do that, Your Honour. Thank you.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Ivetic, I leave it to you whether you find
12 any reason to -- to at an earlier stage put this to the witness.
13 Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
14 I already -- I -- in addition to the decision in relation to
15 Witness RM019 I delivered before the break, in order to avoid any
16 confusion, I'd like to add that we decided, proprio motu, to -- that the
17 testimony of this witness remains in closed session but also includes
18 pseudonym. That remains as well.
19 Second, the Chamber received information from the Prosecution
20 that, in view of the information they received from the briefing by the
21 Defence, that they extended their time estimate for cross-examination
22 from two to two and a half hours.
23 MR. GROOME: That's correct, Your Honour.
24 [The witness entered court]
25 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Mijatovic. Could I invite you
1 to stand for a second.
2 Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you make a
3 solemn declaration. The text is handed out to you. May I invite you to
4 make that solemn declaration.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, let me greet you and
6 I would kindly thank you for the invitation to ...
7 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the Defence invited you. There's no need to
8 say that. If you would just make that solemn declaration, that would be
9 it for the time being.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
11 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
12 WITNESS: NIKOLA MIJATOVIC
13 [Witness answered through interpreter]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Mijatovic. Please be seated.
15 Mr. Mijatovic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Ivetic.
16 Mr. Ivetic is a member of the Defence team of Mr. Mladic, and you'll find
17 him to your left.
18 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
19 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Examination by Mr. Ivetic:
21 Q. Good day, sir.
22 A. Good day to you, Mr. Ivetic.
23 Q. Sir, could you please state your name, including your last name,
24 for the record.
25 A. My name is Nikola Mijatovic.
1 MR. IVETIC: At this time, I would like to call up in e-court
2 65 ter number 1D01607.
3 Q. Sir, if we can look together at the first page of the document in
4 the Serbian original, can you tell me if you can confirm whose signature
5 appears at the bottom of the page?
6 A. This is my signature.
7 MR. IVETIC: If we can turn to the last page in e-court in both
8 versions, that should be page 8.
9 Q. Sir, there's also a signature and a date on this page. Can you
10 tell me if you recognise the same?
11 A. This is my signature. And the date is 16 May 2014.
12 Q. Now, subsequent to signing this statement, sir, did you have
13 occasion to review the statement in the Serbian language for purposes of
14 verifying if there were any corrections or additions required?
15 A. I had an occasion, and together with you, I made some additions.
16 MR. IVETIC: If we could first turn to page 2 in the English and
17 page 2 in the B/C/S of this document, 1D01607.
18 Q. I'd like to focus, sir, on the second paragraph and the
19 discussion of the neighbour that warned of plans to murder you. And if
20 we could, at the same time, look at paragraph 5 of the statement, where
21 it also says that a neighbour told you of a planned murder of you in your
22 automobile. And I'd like to ask you to clarify are these the same
23 incidents involving the same neighbour?
24 A. It was not the same neighbour. In that case, the young man was
25 from a mixed marriage. His father was a Serb. And in the second case,
1 the gentleman was a Muslim, and if you want me to tell you his name, I
2 don't want to do it publicly. The man helped me, I don't want to
3 discredit him and complicate his life. I'm very grateful to him for
4 having done what he did.
5 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, if we could briefly go into private
6 session for the purposes of getting the individual's identity.
7 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
8 [Private session]
21 [Open session]
22 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
24 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Q. Sir, now if we could look at paragraph number 4 on the same page
1 in both versions. The harassment of Serbian children based on their Serb
2 ethnicity that you describe here, what is the basis of this testimony?
3 What the basis of your knowledge of the same?
4 A. My children, my three children, my three daughters, suffered
5 harassment. They would be harassed by my neighbours, and that started in
6 1990 and 1991. The children of my other friends and relatives fared the
7 same, but particularly my children were involved in that.
8 Q. If we can take a look at paragraph 7 together.
9 MR. IVETIC: That can be found in e-court at page 3 of the B/C/S
10 and page 3 in the English.
11 Q. Here, in the statement, sir, you are mentioning a primary school
12 1st Maj on Cetinjska Street, and I note that the Serbian version mentions
13 a machine-gun nest or "mitraljesko gnezdo" while the English translation
14 mentions a sniper nest. What can you tell us in relation to this? Which
15 accords with your recollection of what was present approximately 150
16 metres from this school on Cetinjska Street?
17 A. As a matter of fact, there were both, both a sniper nest and a
18 machine-gun nest at the beginning of the war. There was also a mortar
19 position nearby, and -- and that's the truth of the matter.
20 Q. And while we are at this paragraph, can you provide any further
21 details about your source of the information contained herein about the
22 1st Maj school being used as a makeshift prison for Serbs?
23 A. The source of that information was my sister-in-law -- or,
24 rather, my wife's sister. Her son, Srdjan Lazic was brought in merely
25 because he had my videocamera. And first he was taken to the MUP. He
1 was a 15-year-old child at the time but he was tall. He was already very
2 tall at the time. And he was first taken to the MUP, which was across
3 the street from my building, and then to the school some 100 metres away
4 from the MUP. And he told me that he had seen that a Serb had his head
5 cut off and those who cut his head off with a sword cursed his Chetnik
6 mother. He saw that people had their limbs broken. There was a case
7 when --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Could I -- could I, first of all, invite you to slow
9 down so that the interpreters can follow your speed of speech.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well. Very well.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, a lot of information comes as a kind of
12 a waterfall. Could you please try to get some structure in it. Because
13 it's unclear whose head was cut off and whether that happened at that
14 moment or -- well, it's pretty unclear.
15 Please listen to Mr. Ivetic's questions and try to focus your
16 answers on what he asks you because the source of the information
17 apparently was the son of the sister of your wife. That was the
19 Please proceed.
20 MR. IVETIC:
21 Q. Sir, could you clarify for us what exactly it was that the son of
22 the sister of your wife told you took place at the school and to whom, by
24 A. That school had already been transformed into a prison at the
25 beginning of the war. Muslims had cut a Serb's head off. He concluded
1 that he was a Serb because they cursed his Chetnik mother. And also
2 another Serb had his limbs broken by paramilitary formations, the
3 so-called Green Berets and the Patriotic League, who were already active
4 in Sarajevo at the time.
5 MR. IVETIC: If we can now turn to paragraph 23. That is to be
6 found on page 5 in the English and page 6 in the Serbian in e-court.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Could I just seek clarification on one or two items.
8 Do I understand that this 15-year-old boy was present when the
9 head of a Serb was cut off?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: And --
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if his mother had
13 not intervened, I suppose that he would have ended up in the same way.
14 She went there, she screamed and cried and wailed and pleaded, and she
15 managed to have him released.
16 JUDGE ORIE: So apparently his mother was nearby as well.
17 Do you know the identity of the Serb whose head was cut off?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Believe me, I don't know.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
20 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
21 Q. If we could look at paragraph 23 of your statement. That should
22 be on the screen before you, sir.
23 And I'd like to ask you: Does this paragraph accurately and
24 fully state your reasons for not believing document P2795 from the Galic
25 trial, or do you wish to add some further detail?
1 A. As far as I know, I was very familiar with that line at the time.
2 Across from that line were the combat positions of the so-called
3 BiH Army, i.e., the Muslim army. They were across the road from our
5 What was typical of that part of town was that across the road
6 from our facilities, and I'm talking about Nedzarici, was that those were
7 5- to 7-storey buildings whereas the constructions in Nedzarici were
8 two storeys high at the most. Throughout the war there were no civilians
9 in this neighbourhood because it would not have been logical to expect
10 any of the civilians to walk between two combat lines --
11 Q. Sir, if I can ask for some clarification --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Before we do so, Mr. Ivetic, we are apparently
13 listening to a comment of the witness on a P exhibit in the Galic case.
14 Is the Chamber aware of the content of that? Have we been provided with
15 it? Because it's difficult for us to understand, not that he doesn't
16 believe it, but he has doubts as the statement says, which is not exactly
17 the same, but how could we follow this evidence if we are not aware of
18 what the underlying document says?
19 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, this is the statement as it was in the
20 Karadzic case, this particular selection. And, unfortunately, we do not
21 have in the JDB from the Galic case this particular exhibit so as to --
22 we have the testimony from the Karadzic case where they referred to it.
23 So --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Are you seriously presenting us a comment of the
25 witness in a statement on a document which you say you don't have?
1 MR. IVETIC: This is the witness statement as was given to me,
2 Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: You are responsible for the presentation of
4 evidence, Mr. Ivetic. You can't hide behind those who have given you a
5 statement. I mean, if I see it at first sight, you could have asked
6 those who provide you with the statement for which you primarily bear
7 responsibility to have it adduced as evidence. But I do understand that
8 you don't have it.
9 So most likely then you would not understand what the witness's
10 testimony is either or on the basis of other unknown to us transcripts.
11 Mr. Groome, are you able to assist or --
12 MR. GROOME: First, Your Honour, I believe there's a
13 typographical error in the statement. It references P2795 from the Galic
14 case. I'd encourage Mr. Ivetic to check the transcript of the Galic case
15 at T-16856. I believe the correct number is P2759. And, Your Honour, we
16 have looked at that and it is P1079 in this case.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me just -- one second, please.
18 Yes, if that assists -- at least we could have a look at P1079 in
19 this case and see whether it makes sense and whether there's a fair
20 chance that we're talking about the same document.
21 Meanwhile, please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
22 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
23 Q. Now, sir, in relation to the positions of the ABiH that you have
24 identified, where were they in relation to the 7- to 10-storey buildings
25 identified in your statement?
1 A. Our positions were some 50 metres away. Some were -- some of
2 them were even closer. Sometimes only a street divided us. I'm
3 specifically talking about Alipasino Polje --
4 Q. Sir, I'm asking about the ABiH positions, not the VRS positions.
5 Where were the ABiH positions in relation to the 7- to 10-storey
7 A. In Alipasino Polje, in military field and Dobrinja 5, those were
8 the high-rise buildings that surrounded Nedzarici. Those buildings
9 housed the positions of the Muslim army, the so-called BiH Army.
10 Q. Looking at paragraph 28 of your statement, which is to be found
11 on page 7 in both languages, you have identified a military headquarters
12 and a 120-millimetre mortar near the site of the incident in question in
13 Hrasnica. Are those the only two military installations in Hrasnica that
14 were known to you, or are there others?
15 A. There were others as well. I'm surprised that this has been
16 omitted. I've already told you so, because I mentioned them. The
17 brigade in Hrasnica had some 80 heavy weapons, three tanks, five APCs.
18 It had 105-millimetre howitzers, 120-millimetre howitzers,
19 100-millimetre cannons. I personally observed a multi-rocket-launcher
20 and I ordered my men to fire that rocket-launcher in Hrasnica. In other
21 words, there were a lot more weapons and assets than are mentioned here.
22 I've already spoken about that. I believe that due to speed those facts
23 have been omitted from my statement.
24 Q. Thank you. And how large is the area of Hrasnica? That is to
25 say, the area where all these military installations were located that
1 you have just listed for us.
2 A. The area could be 3 to 4 kilometres long and approximately
3 2 kilometres wide. It was a small neighbourhood. It was not a town
4 or -- it was not a village either. It was just a neighbourhood.
5 Q. Now, apart from the corrections and clarifications we've talked
6 about today, do you stand behind your written statement, as we have in
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. If you were to be asked the same questions today about the same
10 topics as in your statement, would you provide the same answers, in
11 substance, subject only to the corrections and additions that we've gone
12 through in court?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And now that you have taken the solemn declaration in the
15 courtroom, do you affirm the truthfulness and accuracy of this statement,
16 subject to the clarifications --
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Wait for me to finish my question. Subject to the clarifications
19 and corrections we went through?
20 A. Yes.
21 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours -- Your Honours, at this time I would
22 tender --
23 JUDGE ORIE: There seems to be something wrong. Your microphone
24 seems to be activated, nevertheless we don't hear. Could you please
1 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honours. At this time I would tender the
2 statement of the witness, 1D01607, into evidence under Rule 92 ter.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome.
4 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the proofing note that we received on
5 Wednesday evening listed a number of corrections, one of which seems
6 significant that has not been dealt with. Can I draw Mr. Ivetic's
7 attention to paragraph 11 of the statement. Has to do with a date.
8 MR. IVETIC: Ah, yes.
9 Q. If we can look at paragraph 11, sir - and that should be on page
10 4 in both versions - here you have several dates and several positions
11 that you held in the brigade. Are all the positions that you held in the
12 brigade accurately depicted here, along with the dates that you held
13 those positions?
14 A. This is obviously a mistake. I was the chief of security in the
15 Ilidza Brigade --
16 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please slow down.
17 MR. IVETIC:
18 Q. Sir -- sir, could you speak more slowly.
19 A. On the 27th of May, i.e., towards the end of May 1992, I was
20 seriously wounded. I suffered a bullet wound. I was clinically dead. I
21 was treated for three months in the hospital, so it could not have been
22 in 1992. It must a typo. This was the same period of 1993. That's why
23 I said that this should be corrected.
24 Q. If I can ask you, sir, after spending time in the hospital, to
25 what position in the brigade were you first assigned, and when did that
1 take place?
2 A. When I returned from the hospital, I was assigned to the
3 logistics unit. I spent several months there. After rehabilitation,
4 when I was feeling better, I became the assistant brigade commander for
5 information, morale, and religious issues. After that, I became chief of
6 security in the Ilidza Brigade. And then sometime in July 1993 -- or,
7 rather, in September 1994, I apologise, I became the Chief of Staff and
8 deputy commander of the Ilidza Brigade.
9 Q. Do you recall the date when you would have become the assistant
10 for information, morale, and religious matters in the brigade?
11 A. This could have been in November 1992. In any case, it was
12 before the new year of 1992 [as interpreted]. It probably was in
14 Q. And with respect to becoming the chief of security in the
15 brigade, do you -- am I correct -- could you tell us that date? It's a
16 little unclear from your answer what that date was.
17 A. It could have been sometime in March or April 1993.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Ivetic, I'm not quite sure, but at page 55,
19 lines 22 to 23, whether the witness wanted to say before the new year of
20 1993 or of 1992. Because previously he said it was November 1992.
21 MR. IVETIC:
22 Q. Mr. Mijatovic, are you able to assist Judge Moloto with
23 clarifying your answer. Was it the new year of 1992 or 1993 that you
24 meant to reference?
25 A. Before the new year 1993, which means that this was in
1 November 1992.
2 Q. Okay.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thanks.
4 MR. IVETIC:
5 Q. Now, sir, apart from this further clarification, do you stand by
6 your witness statement as it is written?
7 A. I do, yes.
8 Q. Subject to the solemn declaration you have taken, do you affirm
9 that the answers therein are truthful and accurate?
10 A. I confirm that my answers are truthful and accurate.
11 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I would tender 1D01607 into evidence
12 as the next Defence exhibit.
13 MR. GROOME: No objection at this stage, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Groome.
15 Before we decide -- Witness, could you tell me, you commented in
16 paragraph 23 on alleged activity in the home for the blind, which was
17 contained in a document that was shown to you. Could you tell us what
18 exactly that document with which you disagreed, what it said?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I was in the Galic case, when
20 General Stanislav Galic was being tried, my commander, the commander of
21 the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, I remember an instance when they talked
22 about a guy. There was no name. The guy wasn't identified, or the part
23 of the body where he was wounded. There was just a report that some
24 young man was injured -- wounded, that he was taken to the hospital and
25 given medical assistance.
1 The point there was to accuse us, the Serbian side, of sniper
2 fire against civilians. And I said, well, the name of the person is not
3 cited. It doesn't say where he was wounded. There's no mention of the
4 weapon that wounded him. I remember that case very well. I was here. I
5 don't remember if it was the same courtroom or not. But I think that
6 perhaps I also talked about the situation, the description about that
7 event, and that's why I said that I just doubted all of the things that
8 were said then about it.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do you have -- you said it was about a -- the
10 name of the person was not cited but it was about a young man which was
12 I'm -- what I found -- find as most likely the only possible
13 reference in P1079 is that reference is made to a Bosnian civilian, male,
14 age 48 - of course, people may wish still to be young at the age of 48 -
15 but wounded by SA fire, alleged to be fire at Kovaci.
16 Therefore, I do not see any reference to the home of the blind.
17 Was that mentioned in that report on which you commented?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Kovaci. I know about a part of
19 town that is on the other side of Sarajevo. Kovaci is in Bascarsija.
20 And that case that you're talking about has nothing do with the area of
21 responsibility of the Ilidza Brigade where I was. If you know Sarajevo
22 and where Bascarsija is, then this is above Bascarsija.
23 JUDGE ORIE: I know where Bascarsija is. I'm totally lost as far
24 as paragraph 23 is concerned and since the witness says that he would
25 give the same answer -- Mr. Groome.
1 MR. GROOME: If I can assist, Your Honour.
2 I believe what the witness -- I think the witness's memory is
3 failing him on what happened in Galic, but having read the Galic
4 transcript, I believe if you look at e-court page 4 and if you look at
5 item 24(B), I think that's the part that was relevant in that case.
6 JUDGE ORIE: 24(B). Let me have a look. 24, and then B. Let me
7 see. Let me read, then, what is found in the document on which you
8 apparently have commented.
9 It says: The command, or commander, COMD, 1st BN, which stands
10 for abbreviation -- I don't know whether it's a brigade or -- BN ...
11 MR. GROOME: Battalion.
12 JUDGE ORIE: "Battalion of the BSA," which stands for Bosnian
13 Serb Army, I take it, "Ilidza Brigade, admitted the sniping by Bosnian
14 Serb Army from BP 859578 (house for blind people). He promised that
15 there would be no more sniping from that place."
16 It doesn't say anything about a young person having been wounded.
17 It says something about a statement given by the commander of the
18 Ilidza -- of the 1st Battalion of the Ilidza Brigade who apparently had
19 admitted the sniping by the Bosnian Serb Army from the house for the
20 blind people.
21 You now say: I personally doubt it. What do you doubt? That he
22 said so, or do you doubt that there was sniping activity?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm hearing it for the first time
24 that he admitted it.
25 Secondly, I don't know -- I mean, I stand by what I said when the
1 case was presented to me. I think we need to find that. I don't know if
2 it's the same incident, but I know 100 per cent that, at that time, it
3 was about a young man who was wounded. He was not named. They didn't
4 say where he was wounded. Just that he was wounded and taken to the
5 hospital. I don't know.
6 As for this commander, you can ask him what he saw and what he
7 said. I wasn't there. I cannot confirm or deny what is said. I'm
8 talking about the event that I asked about, that it was impossible from
9 our side to hit a civilian because the buildings in front of us had 7 to
10 10 storeys, and you cannot believe that civilians were walking around in
11 front of our positions. I think that you would agree with me. I mean,
12 the lines. I mean, we would be divided by a street, so you can
13 imagine --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Let's -- so these are conclusions you've drawn.
15 Because the document, at least the part I read, doesn't say anything
16 about civilians. It's -- just says "sniper activity," not referring in
17 any way to civilians yet. But you say it's illogical and therefore it
18 can't be true. Is that how I have to understand your testimony?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely. It was about the
20 incident that I was questioned about.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, we do not know at this moment what it
22 is. But now at least it becomes a bit more clear what it is all about.
23 Then ...
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the number for the 92 ter witness
1 statement would be.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D1607 receives number D468,
3 Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: D468 is admitted into evidence.
5 Mr. Ivetic, I noticed that one of the persons who interviewed the
6 witness was counsel, Mr. Stojanovic. So, therefore, to say, "that is how
7 I received it," he is seated 1 and a half metre behind you.
8 Please proceed.
9 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I would like to tender at
10 this time two associated exhibits. 1D02295 and 1D02296.
11 MR. GROOME: No objection.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the numbers.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D2295 receives number D469,
14 Your Honours.
15 And document 1D2296 receives number D470, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: D469 and D470 are admitted.
17 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
18 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour. At this time I would like
19 to read a summary of the Rule 92 ter evidence. I have during proofing
20 explained the purpose of this summary to the witness.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
22 MR. IVETIC: Mr. Nikola Mijatovic lived in the Alipasino Polje
23 part of Sarajevo with his family until neighbours told him about multiple
24 plots to kill him because he was a prominent Serb living there for about
25 ten years. He and his family left Sarajevo in April 1992 as a result.
1 Before he left, Mr. Mijatovic noted information received from
2 others that Bosnian Muslims were organising the distribution of weapons
3 to those considered reliable. He personally witnessed a truck of rifles
4 that was parked in front of his apartment, which he reported to the
5 police, but he suspects the Bosnian Muslim police officers told the truck
6 driver to hide the same.
7 He noted that the demeanour of Bosnian Muslim neighbours became
8 hostile towards Serbs before he departed Sarajevo and that even Serb
9 children were abused due to their ethnicity.
10 Upon departing Sarajevo, the witness became part of the
11 Ilidza Brigade, eventually becoming chief of security and then
12 Chief of Staff. His testimony is that the ABiH utilized civilian schools
13 to manufacture grenades and launchers.
14 His testimony is that the ABiH side shelled the power transfer
15 station which covered both Ilidza and Sarajevo, cutting off power, and
16 then falsely blaming the Serbs.
17 His testimony is that the ABiH often shelled Ilidza from near
18 where UNPROFOR was situated, despite complaints about the same.
19 According to his information, the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps
20 suffered from a severe shortage of artillery and mortar ammunition. It
21 is for these reasons that the corps was compelled to use modified aerial
22 bombs. The trajectory of these bombs was predetermined and could be
23 controlled. As with any other type of guided weapons, there was a chance
24 of minimum deviation due to meteorological conditions. The objective for
25 using modified aerial bombs was defence, to defend themselves against
1 ABiH attacks, and prevent a breakthrough by the ABiH through the lines
2 and thus prevent an ABiH massacre of the civilian population of Ilidza.
3 No one in his brigade nor, as far as he knows, in the corps
4 command intended to terrorise civilians in part of the city controlled by
5 Muslim forces. He received reports that Muslims were also using modified
6 aerial bombs.
7 The witness also discusses the incident G10, noting that certain
8 ABiH military targets were in that part of Hrasnica, including a command
9 of the BH Army, and a 120-millimetre mortar.
10 As to G13, the witness points out this was during a fierce
11 Bosnian Muslim offensive when both sides were actively shooting.
12 Than completes a summary of the statement.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.
14 Any further questions for the witness.
15 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
17 MR. IVETIC:
18 Q. If we can turn to page 4 of your statement and paragraphs 15 and
19 16, here, sir, you are talking about the Muslim side giving false
20 information to the UN that the Serbs were targeting civilians, and you
21 give an account of when the ABiH shelled a power transfer station and
22 then blamed the Serbs for -- for -- for cutting off electricity.
23 I would like to look at document 1D02085 with you.
24 Sir, if you could focus on this document, it's dated
25 13 December 1992, and it's a report of your brigade signed by the
1 commander. If we look at item number 1, does this appear to be related
2 to the attack of the power transfer station that you describe in your
4 A. May I answer?
5 Q. Yes.
6 A. This refers to this case, although there were a number of cases
7 of shelling damage of this Muslim transformer station. This is a station
8 that Sarajevo was supplied through, as well as Serbian Ilidza, as well as
9 the waterworks. So if you hit the station and the oil is lost, then
10 there would be no water for Serbian Ilidza or for other parts of
11 Sarajevo, in the city and on the outskirts of town.
12 So everything went through this transformer station, and it was
13 something that was used for constant pressure and for deceiving the
14 public because what they wanted was to create the impression that the
15 Serbs were constantly inflicting terror. But actually our people were
16 wounded near the station.
17 When this happened I remember very well. As far as I remember,
18 there were 30 tonnes of oil that leaked from the station, and it's
19 something that we were storing near the airport. We had received this
20 from --
21 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch from whom --
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And that is how the transformer
23 station was supplied with this oil.
24 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please. One second, please.
25 Could we first seek -- you told us about the 30 tonnes of oil
1 that leaked from the station and you had received this from whom or from
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because I was personally there. I
4 went when this happened, and so, yes --
5 JUDGE ORIE: You spoke so quickly that the interpreters did not
6 hear what you said. "We -- we had received this from," and then they
7 failed to hear what you then said. Could you please repeat that.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We received the oil from UNPROFOR,
9 the oil that we used once the transformer station was repaired. We got
10 it through them because it was impossible for us to obtain it because of
11 the money, transport, and all these things. But throughout that whole
12 period, the water supply system was inoperative as well. Nothing could
14 JUDGE ORIE: The only thing I asked you is to repeat from whom
15 you got that oil. The simple answer, therefore, is from UNPROFOR.
16 Carefully listen to the next question Mr. Ivetic will put to you
17 and focus your answer on the question, rather than telling us the whole
18 story of the war, which I can imagine is on your mind, but you're here to
19 give answers to these questions.
20 Please proceed.
21 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Q. Did the Bosnian Muslim side offer any assistance in repairing the
23 transfer station?
24 A. No, there was no offer of help.
25 Q. And in item 1 of this document, there is discussion that on this
1 occasion the ABiH also struck the hospital and other civilian facilities.
2 Does this document accord with your recollection of this incident?
3 A. I remember it vividly because this shelling was a specific case,
4 and that's why I remember it. There was a policeman, Zeljko Knezovic.
5 In the same day, his father and mother were killed, and they died at the
6 Zica hospital where the civilians were being treated because of this.
7 There were other wounded and other people who died as well, but I just
8 happen to remember this particular case of Zeljko. There were other such
9 cases, though.
10 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I would move --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, I'm a bit lost again by looking at this
12 document. Because you asked a question in relation to the Muslim side
13 providing false information to UNPROFOR. Could you assist me in finding
14 that in the report by the Ilidza Brigade Command under number 1, because
15 as far as I can see, it doesn't say anything about reporting to UNPROFOR
16 so --
17 MR. IVETIC: No, Your Honour. It's the statement of the witness
18 in paragraph 16 where he says:
19 "On this occasion, the Muslim side falsely informed the UNPROFOR
20 that we were the ones who had cut off their electrical supply."
21 JUDGE ORIE: Let me have a look. Yes, yes, I misread. I
22 focussed on 15, and I should have carefully read 16 as well.
23 Nevertheless, the reporting here -- oh, you just wanted to say
24 this was the incident related to what the witness said about the
1 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us anything about the report itself?
3 How did they report it to UNPROFOR?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Should I answer? Mr. Ivetic,
5 should I answer?
6 JUDGE ORIE: You should answer because I put the question to you,
7 yes. Yes --
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, I apologise. I'm sorry.
9 The usual line of reporting of UNPROFOR would go from the
10 battalion up to the brigade level. From the brigade, up to the corps
11 level. The corps would inform --
12 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not asking about how usually reporting went on.
13 What I'm asking you is what you could tell us exactly about the way in
14 which the Muslim side reported this incident to UNPROFOR. What did they
15 exactly say?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They told UNPROFOR that we had
17 shelled the transformer station briefly. But actually it was a total
18 lie. When the UNPROFOR members went to the scene --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Let's keep it to that. I -- have you seen a written
20 report, or what -- how do you know exactly that they blamed you for this
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because UNPROFOR, when they came to
23 us, they told us this.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's clear. You were told by UNPROFOR.
25 And what did UNPROFOR, then, exactly say they had reported?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They said that we had fired at the
2 transformer station. But then when we went to the scene, experts for
3 mortar weapons and artillery weapons, together with UNPROFOR, determined
4 that the shots - there were a number of them - the shots had come from
5 the Muslim side. And since there were UNPROFOR observers next to all of
6 our weapons, all we did was say to them: Well, why don't you just ask
7 your people if we had fired from anywhere?
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, last question in this context. This
9 transformer station, was it situated in an area controlled by the
10 Bosnian Serb Army or by the Bosnia-Herzegovina Federation Army?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was under the control of the
12 Army of Republika Srpska. It was on our territory, on Serb territory.
13 In the area of Blazuj. That was the precise location. Close to the
14 Bosna river source. And that's what the station was called, Vrelo Bosne.
15 But then it was exposed to fire from the Muslim side from all directions.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you were blamed for firing at an
17 installation which they said was on your own -- of the territory --
18 territory controlled by yourself. Is that ...
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. But that was not the first
20 false accusation. It was one in a series of such false accusations by
21 the Muslim side.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
23 MR. IVETIC: Thank you. I would tender 1D02085 into evidence.
24 MR. GROOME: Is Mr. Ivetic able to provide any provenance
25 information? I can't seem to locate where the document came from.
1 MR. IVETIC: There appears to be a stamp from the Galic case in
2 the upper right-hand corner of the B/C/S original. It was disclosed to
3 us in that form and the translation appears to be a CLSS translation. So
4 I would surmise that this was used in the Galic case. We got it off the
6 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, can I ask that it be marked for
7 identification to just give us an opportunity to investigate where the
8 document came from?
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. No objections, I take it, Mr. Ivetic.
10 MR. IVETIC: No, no objections.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Merely technical verification.
12 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the number would be?
14 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D2085 receives number D471,
15 Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
17 MR. IVETIC: Is marked for identification --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Is marked for identification. I apologise. It's
19 time for me to take a break, I think.
20 We'll take a break, Witness, and we'd like to see you back in
21 20 minutes. You may now follow the usher.
22 [The witness stands down]
23 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at 1.30.
24 --- Recess taken at 1.11 p.m.
25 --- On resuming at 1.32 p.m.
1 MR. IVETIC: While we wait for the witness, Your Honour, I can
2 also give Mr. Groome additional information about 1D02085. That was
3 admitted as Exhibit D02510 in the Karadzic case.
4 MR. GROOME: Thank you for that information.
5 JUDGE ORIE: I take it, Mr. Groome, that we'll hear within the
6 next two or three court days about your position about this document.
7 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 [The witness takes the stand]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, you may continue your examination.
11 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, sir.
12 If we could return to the written statement, Exhibit D00468. And
13 if we can look at page 3 in both languages.
14 Q. While we wait for that, sir, I can introduce it. In this
15 paragraph, paragraph 6, you talk about the lorry filled with weapons that
16 you ran into outside of your apartment building. And I would like to ask
17 you if this is the only such incident that you have personal knowledge of
18 near your home of weapons being shipped clandestinely prior to the
19 outbreak of the war?
20 A. That's not the only case. There were other cases. There was me
21 and then I reported that to the police station opposite my house. This
22 other case was when I was with Boro Ivanisevic, my neighbour from the
23 11th floor. The third case was this information from my very own
24 brother. At that time, he was a senior inspector at the police station
25 in Hadzici. That is the first station, the first municipality right next
1 to Ilidza. And they caught this -- or, rather, captured this truck full
2 of ammunition and weapons, Muslim, of course --
3 Q. I'd like to take them one by one sir.
4 Could I first ask you to provide us the details of the other
5 incident that you identify in reference to your neighbour from the
6 11th floor.
7 A. We saw this vehicle then. As far as I can remember, it was a
8 Zastava; 3 and a half tonnes. You could see that inside there were
9 wooden boxes with military equipment. I mean, rifles are kept in boxes
10 like that. So that was that incident.
11 Q. Okay. Now can you tell us of the details of the incident
12 involving your brother, the police inspector at Hadzici.
13 A. A subordinate policeman of his, Camur, an ethnic Serb, he was on
14 duty near the quarry. There is this quarry near the exit out of Hadzici
15 and then policemen were often on duty there. On that day, he realised
16 that there was a freight truck there escorted by a police vehicle but the
17 police vehicle did not have rotating lights. And that intrigued him and
18 that made him suspicious, didn't have rotating lights, and any police
19 vehicle would have to have that when escorting this kind of truck and
20 also they couldn't have been on in that case. And then he stopped these
21 colleagues and said: Who are you escorting and what? And they said:
22 Flour. And then he said: Since when do people give a police escort to
23 flour? And then that made him suspicious and he lifted this tarpaulin
24 and then he saw these boxes with rifles.
25 He informed my brother and the commander of the police station
1 and -- you used a Motorola to inform my brother, who was his superior,
2 and also the commander of the police station, a Serb, because he knew
3 that these were Muslims. He recognised them. And also this police
4 escort, these policemen were too. And then the secretary of the
5 committee came and the president of the municipality. They were Muslims.
6 And these guys were locked up there. I mean, it was right there on this
8 They convinced them that they should all go back to the police
9 station in Hadzici and that's about 700 metres -- that is about 700 to
10 800 metres from the police station, that they should go back and then the
11 policemen would take this vehicle and go back to the station. And these
12 people obeyed them because they didn't want to create a conflict right
13 there on the spot, and they believed that that is what would happen
14 ultimately. But there were no -- there were no divisions yet, concrete
15 ones, between the policemen, Serbs and Muslims. The Serbs believed that
16 the Muslims would honour their word.
17 Q. Sir, at the end of the day, what happened to that lorry that was
18 discovered with the rifles in the escort of a police vehicle without
19 rotating lights?
20 A. Well, it simply disappeared. This truck never came to the police
21 station. It just went along and went to the Muslim population that it
22 had been intended for in the first place.
23 Q. I would now like to draw your attention --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask --
25 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, what you're telling us is what you heard
2 from your brother, or do you have any personal knowledge of these events?
3 That is --
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard about this from my brother
5 and his colleague, Tiho Glavas. He was the commander of the station in
6 Hadzici. It's not a secret so I can mention his name. And also directly
7 from this Camur who stopped all of this. So all of this is first-hand,
8 if you can put it that way.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I would call it second-hand if you hear it
10 from them, but let's not argue about that.
11 Please proceed.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I just ask for a clarification.
13 You said in a previous answer: Well, the truck simply
15 How do you know that it went to the Muslim population if it just
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, because of what I said. The
18 Muslim policemen were escorting this vehicle and also this freight
19 vehicle, the driver and the person accompanying him all of -- all of them
20 were Muslims. So it's a very realistic assumption, that they went to
21 where it had been intended for and to whom it had been intended.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: So I take it, it's your assumption? Thank you.
23 MR. IVETIC:
24 Q. I would now like to draw your focus on the time-period after the
25 war already began. And do you have any personal knowledge of weapons or
1 ammunition being clandestinely transported to the Bosnian Muslims during
2 that time-period?
3 A. I have several personal experiences of ammunition being
4 transported to Muslims.
5 One of these cases was when we stopped a UNHCR convoy. When we
6 lifted the container there on the trailer, and underneath, as far as I
7 can remember now, about 30 ammunition boxes were found there for
8 anti-aircraft guns, Brownings, and sniper ammunition was found as well
9 and infantry ammunition too. This is one case.
10 Now, there was this other case. I was personally present when,
11 in this convoy that was taking humanitarian aid to Sarajevo, we also
12 found ammunition for snipers and for Brownings and even some weapons too.
13 The next case was --
14 Q. Finish the next case. Then I'd like to ask you a question about
15 additional information about this.
16 A. Yes. I personally also realised that UNPROFOR vehicles that had
17 Brownings on them, say, 30 APCs, would get in and they would all have
18 these heavy machine-guns, and when they would leave town, even during a
19 routine control, military policemen told us, and I personally saw some of
20 these situations, ten or 15 Brownings would be missing in a convoy of
21 30 vehicles.
22 Now let me tell you about this proportion, where they
23 disappeared, these Brownings. We asked them and they told us that
24 Muslims seized them in the town of Sarajevo.
25 Q. I'd like -- I'd like to go back to the -- you talked about
1 stopping UNHCR convoys. On how many occasions were you able to confirm
2 that UNHCR convoys were being used to clandestinely transport weapons to
3 the Bosnian Muslim side?
4 A. Several times. But twice we confirmed this. By having these TV
5 cameras there that were on the spot. Actually, we managed to get them
6 there and then they managed to film this.
7 So several times. But then we have these two documented cases,
8 as we call it. I would sometimes be out in the field. Then the military
9 police would find this, even without me.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Ivetic, can I just clarify one point before it
11 disappears from the screen.
12 Sir, at page -- at page 73, starting from line 22, you say:
13 "Yes, I personally also realised that UNPROFOR vehicles that had
14 Brownings on them, say 30 APCs would get in ..."
15 I'm not quite sure how the APCs are connected with the UNPROFOR
16 vehicles. Can you explain that a little bit? I just see that little
17 phrase, "say, 30 APCs," getting thrown into that sentence and I'm not
18 quite sure what it means, how the two are connected.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These are APCs, transporters that
20 UNPROFOR takes. No dilemma. I really don't understand. I'm so sorry.
21 What is it that you don't understand? These are APCs, transporters of
22 UNPROFOR that usually had Brownings or anti-aircraft guns mounted on
23 them. But there were APCs that had anti-aircraft guns of 20-millimetres.
24 However, these were those that were supposed to transport personnel and
25 they had Brownings on them. Brownings are heavy machine-guns or, rather,
1 anti-aircraft guns, but then they can also be used to fire at
2 artillery -- at infantry too, at any rate.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask a follow-up question about the same
4 answer you gave.
5 You say you personally also realised that UNPROFOR vehicles that
6 had Brownings on them, say, 30 APCs, would get in, and they would all
7 have these heavy machine-guns. I do understand that they were equipped
8 with these guns. And when they would leave town, even during a routine
9 control, military policemen told us, and you saw some of these
10 situations, ten or 15 Brownings would be missing in a convoy of
11 30 vehicles.
12 Is it your testimony that it's your assumption, that since they
13 did not have all those Brownings on these vehicles when they left town,
14 that they must have been left with the Muslims? Is that how I have to
15 understand your testimony?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely, Mr. President.
17 Precisely. Because we checked the vehicles, and they were not in the
18 vehicles. And then we wrote written reports about that to our command.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, the -- the factual part of your statement
20 is you saw APCs leaving town without these heavy machine-guns mounted on
21 it. That's the facts that you observed. What explained that, whether
22 they were under repair, or whether they were taken by Muslims, or whether
23 they were just -- you -- do you have any knowledge about that, or is it
24 just your observation that you saw them without these Brownings?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, they were not being repaired.
1 Because UNPROFOR soldiers themselves told us that, allegedly, Muslims had
2 seized these weapons from them in town. This information was obtained
3 from UNPROFOR soldiers. So there's no assumption there that they were
4 being repaired. Allegedly they were seized from them.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. They were stolen, if I understand you -- well,
6 they were stolen by the Muslims from UNPROFOR. Yes -- well, that
7 clarifies part of your answer.
8 Then the other matter is the recorded incidents of smuggling
9 weapons. You said two were recorded. The others were not recorded. Do
10 you mean to say not recorded by a camera, or were they not recorded, were
11 they not documented in the hierarchical lines and -- I mean, the two you
12 observed yourself, Mr. -- yes, please.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good question. And let me explain.
14 Twice I said that we recorded this, as far as I know. I happened to be
15 there when we captured them, if I can put it this way. Actually when we
16 caught them smuggling for Muslims, ammunition. That was filmed on
18 Then there was this other case when this would be recorded in
19 writing, and our superior command would always be informed about that.
20 So it's not that it was unrecorded. It was recorded but in writing, not
21 on camera. That's what I meant.
22 JUDGE ORIE: And then complaints were lodged, I take it, at the
23 UNPROFOR Command?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A higher command, yes, that was
25 authorised to have relations with UNPROFOR.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
2 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
3 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, at this time I'd like to take look
4 video. 1D00358. Transcripts have been provided to the booths. We have,
5 I believe, played this video with prior witnesses during the Prosecution
6 case so I don't know whether we still need to do it twice. Shall we
7 play --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Is that where it is recorded how the contraband was
9 detected in --
10 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: We could --
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just before, the number of the ID has not been
13 recorded. Can you just make sure we've got it.
14 MR. IVETIC: 1D00358.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 [Defence counsel and accused confer]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, perhaps a good compromise would be if
18 you would just play it and we can -- of course the text spoken can be --
19 it is in evidence already, I do understand, but it refreshes our memory
20 as --
21 MR. IVETIC: It's not in evidence yet. It's was only --
22 JUDGE ORIE: It's not in evidence.
23 MR. IVETIC: No.
24 JUDGE ORIE: It has been played but not in evidence.
25 MR. IVETIC: I believe it was played with respect to Prosecution
1 witnesses who could not offer confirmation of the location, the date or
2 the incident.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. So it would make sense if this witness would
4 have been present at that moment.
5 MR. IVETIC: Correct.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then let's have a look at it.
7 Should it be played twice? Is there any -- is it text spoken --
8 MR. IVETIC: There is text spoken, yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Then we have to play it twice.
10 MR. IVETIC: Twice. No problem.
11 [Video-clip played]
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 MR. IVETIC: There seems to be an issue with the video.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, because it's moving up and down. The picture
15 is not showing exactly -- of course, we saw a few -- a few pictures where
16 apparently ammunition was shown to the camera. Now we see different
17 pictures. We've seen this before. What's the length of the whole of
18 the --
19 MR. IVETIC: Two minutes, Your Honours. Two minutes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Two minutes.
21 MR. IVETIC: Yeah.
22 JUDGE ORIE: I think we've looked at it for more than two minutes
23 already. I -- yes, I don't know -- Mr. Groome.
24 MR. GROOME: Certainly if Mr. Ivetic wants to go forward, I would
25 have no objection to him reopening his direct examination when he can
1 sort out the technical problems.
2 Can I ask, last time this was shown, at transcript 3836, the
3 Defence said they were still trying to determine the date of the video,
4 has that been done yet?
5 MR. IVETIC: The witness is hopefully the one who can provide us
6 that information --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Could we -- we want to see it in its entirety
8 later but we could already ask the witness whether he recognises anything
9 he has seen.
10 Witness, this video, there are some technical problems, but I
11 take it that you were able to at least see something, boxes being opened,
12 ammunition being -- in those boxes. Does -- have you been present
13 during -- at this moment at that place?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was present -- I was providing a
15 statement there because journalists asked me questions. Since that was
16 a --
17 JUDGE ORIE: One second. I take it step by step. Does that mean
18 that we could see you in the video?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No, not in this clip, no.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Not in this clip. Do you remember where this was?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course, I do. It was in Ilidza,
22 very close to Kasindolska Street. It happened in the spring of 1993. I
23 remember that very well.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do you have any further details? Spring could
25 still cover three months, but do you know whether -- what month it was?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that this could have been
2 in late March or mid-April. As far as I can remember, that would have
3 been the period. There were thousands of events in the war, so it's very
4 hard to remember the exact dates. And there were very many similar
5 cases. They were cases when we found shells in their APCs as well as
6 ammunition --
7 JUDGE ORIE: I asked you whether you knew where it was, when it
8 was, and you've answered that question.
9 Mr. Ivetic, I suggest that you try to resolve the -- the
10 technical issue and that, meanwhile, we proceed. At least we have now a
11 basis -- perhaps for further questions to the witness.
12 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
14 MR. IVETIC:
15 Q. I'd like to follow up with something you just started talking
16 about. You talked about cases where you found shells in their APCs.
17 Could you tell us, please, what you are talking about, whose APCs, and
18 what did you find.
19 A. We found shells, 81-millimetre mortar shells. That's a standard
20 NATO calibre. We found them in UNPROFOR vehicles, and those vehicles
21 belonged to the French Battalion which was deployed in Butmir airport, in
22 the base there. There was a verbal argument. We did not allow them to
23 proceed because mortar shells of that calibre did not belong to the APC,
24 which meant that they were being taken for the Muslims, who would have
25 then shelled our civilians, our children. And I personally --
1 Q. If I can interrupt -- if I can interrupt. Could you explain for
2 us, when you say "mortar shells of that calibre did not belong to the
3 APC," what are you trying to say? What does that mean? Was the APC
4 equipped with mortar -- with a mortar launcher?
5 A. No. Those APCs were not equipped with mortars. They have
6 infantry weapons, i.e., the APC crews have mortars [as interpreted] and
7 12.7-millimetre Browning machine-gun rounds. Everything else that was
8 found on an APC was being smuggled to the Muslim side in Sarajevo or
9 outside of Sarajevo for that matter.
10 Q. If I can ask clarification, sir. In the transcript at page 81,
11 line 2, you have said that the AP crews had mortars and 12.7-millimetre
12 Browning machine-gun rounds. Is that accurate, sir? Did the APCs have
13 mortars affixed to them the -- the --
14 A. No. Just the opposite what I said. They did not have mortars
15 and that proves that any mortar rounds found on any APC was being
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Simple question: Did UNPROFOR have any
18 mortars? To your knowledge.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] UNPROFOR did have mortars, but they
20 were in mortar positions. However, that type of APCs did -- were not
21 equipped with mortars. And when we intervened, we called the corps
22 command, and then the corps command called the battalion command in
23 Butmir, and it turned out that they did it independently and they had to
24 return to the base, which also proves that those rounds were intended for
25 the Muslims and were being smuggled to them.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Tell us what you observed, what you saw, what you
2 heard, and don't tell us what all that proves. Because it's for the
3 parties to argue what this proves or does not prove, and it's for this
4 Chamber to decide what the evidence proves.
5 So just limit yourself to what you saw, preferably personally saw
6 or heard from others, and don't draw any conclusions, because that
7 confuses the Chamber slightly.
8 Mr. Ivetic.
9 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
10 Q. Did you have occasion to find out about any other incidents of
11 ammunition or explosives being transported in humanitarian aid or
12 humanitarian equipment?
13 A. As I've already told you, there were many such cases, and one of
14 them was very typical. Another relative of mine, who was a member of the
15 border police, found things in oxygen containers. This was also recorded
16 by a video camera. We're talking about very large containers that can
17 contain between 100 and 200 kilos of explosive. There was gunpowder and
18 explosives in them, and during the control it was established that --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You did not personally observe that, did you?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it was my cousin. However, I
21 saw it on TV and I heard it from my cousin personally.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, if there is any documentation recording
23 of that, and it comes to my mind - I've forgotten much from the past -
24 but somewhere in the back of my mind it says that oxygen bottles were
25 recorded and documented. Rather than to hear second-hand from this
1 witness who has not observed it personally, perhaps we could look at that
3 MR. IVETIC: Well, Your Honour, our goal is to try to corroborate
4 those documents with hearsay testimony which, I believe, the
5 jurisprudence of the Tribunal does allow and which the Prosecution relied
6 on heavily.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, I noticed that this witness says that he
8 heard from his brother and saw on television about oxygen bottles, and
9 that already is a corroboration. And I think it was not argued that this
10 is not permissible. Yes. But whether we should hear all the details,
11 but you leave it in your hands. It's your time.
12 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Although it's almost over, your time but --
14 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: More than over, says my colleague.
16 MR. IVETIC:
17 Q. If I could turn to page 7 of your statement, which is D468,
18 paragraph 28 of the same, in relation to G10 in Hrasnica mentions a
19 Fikret Pljevljak.
20 MR. IVETIC: I would like it turn to Exhibit D00156 in e-court.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Document is under seal, Your Honours.
22 MR. IVETIC: If we could -- perhaps if we could go into private
23 session briefly.
24 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
25 [Private session]
11 Page 21475 redacted. Private session.
13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
16 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Can we please have P0592 in e-court.
18 Q. While we wait for the same, I could introduce it to tell that you
19 it is dated the 6th of April, 1995, and originates from General Milosevic
20 and is sent to your brigade. It is an order to prepare an aerial bomb
21 and says:
22 "The most profitable target must be selected in Hrasnica or
23 Sokolovic colony where the greatest casualties and material damage would
24 be inflicted."
25 Can you tell me how such an order would be interpreted and
1 implemented by your brigade upon its receipt?
2 A. In view of the fact that we were constantly warned by the
3 commander of the VRS and from the command of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps
4 that we should adhere to Geneva Conventions, that we had to comply with
5 rules of war, this would exclusively apply to military targets and it did
6 apply to military targets and nothing else. Civilian targets were
7 absolutely excluded from this order. That was the stance of our
8 Main Staff, the corps command, and us in the brigade, in the battalions.
9 All the time civilians had to be protected and excluded from military
10 activities, and this order can only be explained in that way, because
11 that was the only way to achieve the desired effect.
12 Q. Just to be clear, can this order be properly understood or
13 interpreted as ordering the use of bombs against civilian personnel from
14 a military standpoint, in your opinion?
15 A. Absolutely not. Not at all. The use against civilian population
16 is absolutely excluded, not only in terms of aerial bombs. We were
17 forbidden to open fire on personnel in -- not wearing uniform, let alone
19 Q. Very briefly, sir, what can you tell me about the casualties
20 suffered by your brigade and by civilians in the Ilidza municipality
21 during the war?
22 A. In my brigade, we had 460 dead, 2.150 wounded, of whom several
23 hundred seriously wounded. About 400 civilians were -- were killed in
24 Serbian Ilidza, most of them children. This bears witness to the
25 fighting and the kind of fighting the Ilidza Brigade was engaged in. We
1 had four brigades of Muslims, 101st, 102nd, 103rd, and 105th
2 Muslim Brigades on our separation line --
3 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness please be asked to slow down.
4 MR. IVETIC:
5 Q. Please speak slowly.
6 A. Thank you. Our final number was 2.000. There were six enemy
7 offensives that were launched against the Serbian Ilidza. Why so many
8 offensives in Serbian Ilidza?
9 Q. If I can interrupt. Could you clarify for us how many enemy
10 offensives were launched against Ilidza by the enemy? The number. How
12 A. 36. 36. I don't know if you heard me the first time around.
13 Q. One last question for you, sir. Based on your knowledge, how
14 many potential military targets would you have known to have existed on
15 the part of the territory controlled by the ABiH in Sarajevo; and what do
16 you base that assessment on?
17 A. About 1.000 military targets existed in Sarajevo and I based that
18 assessment on the following. The commander of the 1st Corps of the
19 BiH Army, which controlled Sarajevo, stated before this Tribunal that
20 they had between 75.000 and 80.000 people under arms --
21 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness please be asked to slow down.
22 MR. IVETIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. You have to speak slowly for the interpreters to be able to do
24 their job.
25 A. Thank you. 25 brigades with four battalions. That's
1 100 battalions each. A battalion had four companies. And that means
2 400 command posts all together, ranging from companies to brigades. If
3 we assume that each of the brigades has a minimum of 20 heavy pieces of
4 artillery, that is 500, plus 400, that's 900, and if we know that during
5 the war Sarajevo --
6 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand your explanation.
7 Mr. Ivetic, I'm also looking at the clock. Apparently what the
8 witness tells us is that he deduces the number of potential military
9 targets by analysing the number of troops and the way in which they were
10 organised and then draws his conclusions --
11 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: -- on the basis of that. If that is the
13 explanation, then we have understood it. Even without going into further
14 details, we know the type of --
15 MR. IVETIC: Then I'm happy to stop.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 We have to adjourn for the day. Do you have any further
18 questions for the witness? You'd announced that as the last question.
19 MR. IVETIC: That's correct, that was the last question. I just
20 have the videotape that hopefully I will figure out and then rest
21 the [overlapping speakers] --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then we'll see that.
23 Witness, Mr. Mijatovic, we adjourn for the day and we will resume
24 on Monday, after the weekend, at 9.30 in the morning. I would like to
25 instruct you that you should not speak or communicate with whomever about
1 your testimony, whether that is testimony you have already given or
2 testimony still to be given on Monday. There's a fair chance that we
3 would conclude your testimony on Monday.
4 You may follow the usher.
5 [The witness stands down]
6 JUDGE ORIE: I could -- could Victims and Witness Section explain
7 to the witness over the weekend that greeting of the accused is not
8 something one does as a witness when entering or leaving the courtroom.
9 Then we adjourn for the day, and we will resume, the 26th of May,
10 Monday, the 26th of May, at 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom,
12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.22 p.m.,
13 to be reconvened on Monday, the 26th day of May,
14 2014, at 9.30 a.m.