1 Thursday, 29 May 2014
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.45 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone. We had a late start. The
6 first delay was caused by technical problems, and then there were other
7 problems, which caused further delay.
8 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
10 This is case IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
12 The Chamber was informed that there were a few preliminary
13 matters to be raised. Defence first.
14 MR. LUKIC: Good morning, Your Honours.
15 First, we want to inform the other party and the Chamber that
16 Exhibit Number D460, MFI'd, and introduced through Witness Trapara was
17 now completed, and we ask your order for the old number, ET 1D08-0858, to
18 be replaced with a completed translation that bears number 1D11-1847.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And the only reason why it was not admitted
20 was the lacking translation. There were no other problems.
21 Madam Registrar, the English translation now in e-court may be
22 replaced by 1D11-1847.
23 Thank you, Mr. Lukic for that.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE ORIE: It's hereby then admitted into evidence because the
1 old one was MFI'd and the new English translation removes any obstacle to
2 admission. Admitted therefore.
3 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Next one, another matter, Mr. Lukic.
5 MR. LUKIC: Yes, yes, Your Honour.
6 Yesterday we saw that the Prosecution inquired about the
7 composition of the witness statement and how it was produced. We want to
8 inform Your Honours that our witnesses do not participate in composing
9 the statement. They give the statement to members of our team. They do
10 not know how that statement is finalized. If the Prosecution wants to
11 inquire how those statements are composed, they should address us.
12 It is our understanding that we include in the statement what we
13 think that should be included, and the Prosecution has the previous
14 statements for cross-examination. We saw many times in this courtroom,
15 specifically when the Prosecution introduced transcripts, that they took
16 out parts from transcript, from testimony, not only from statements.
17 Then we had the opportunity to cross-examine, to read the transcript. If
18 we want to ask something, we can ask the witness.
19 So there is no need to clarify such things with our witnesses.
20 We also do not have work product from the investigators from the
21 Prosecution. So we do not know what they included in their statements.
22 And I think that the work products are not mandatory for disclosure.
23 So I didn't want to object yesterday when this witness was on the
24 stand because I didn't want to raise that issue in front of him. But
25 as -- as of now, I ask the Prosecution if they want to inquire why
1 something is added or left, they can inquire through cross-examination.
2 And that's all what we have as a preliminary matter this morning,
3 Your Honours. Thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. On the latter point, Mr. Groome, do you
5 want to respond.
6 MR. GROOME: Just briefly, Your Honour. I think certainly the
7 Prosecution is entitled to explore differences between the statements,
8 including omissions and additions, just as the Defence did. I'm not
9 exactly sure what particular questions Mr. Lukic is objecting to, but may
10 I suggest that he do object and maybe address them in the context of a
11 specific question that's put to the witness. But as far as I'm aware or
12 as far as -- my position is that all the questions we've asked have been
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I say something. The only -- the only little
15 contradiction, Mr. Lukic, in what you are saying, you said at the
16 beginning that if the Prosecution wants to know how your statements are
17 composed ask you and not the witness. But your last sentence says:
18 "... they can inquire through cross-examination. And that's all
19 we have as a preliminary matter this morning."
20 And that's what they did. They inquired through
22 MR. LUKIC: They inquired about the parts of the statement they
23 want to inquire. But they cannot inquire with our witnesses how the
24 statement is composed. They do not know.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. But --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Well, no --
2 MR. LUKIC: But differences, of course, they can cross-examine.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Okay, thank you.
4 MR. LUKIC: That's not an issue.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: That clarifies.
6 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
7 JUDGE ORIE: And it may be a bit more complex. Of course, if you
8 ask a witness about a process of composing a statement which they do not
9 know about, then the simple answer would be: I can't tell you. So,
10 therefore, there is no problem.
11 And your comparison with the selection of transcript portions is
12 not the best comparison I could think of. Because, first of all,
13 everything is available. It's clear that it's a selection. And the
14 issue, as far as I understood it, for the Prosecution, may be that,
15 although there are dates of interviews - sometimes three, four days -
16 that result in almost literally the same text as a statement, and I think
17 that that is what triggered some attention.
18 But, again, I fully agree with you that if a witness is asked a
19 question about how a statement was composed, if he doesn't know, his
20 answer cannot be anything else than: I do not know. But, of course, if
21 there are differences with the previous statements, and if the
22 Prosecution thinks that it may have some meaning, they can verify with a
23 witness, either whether the witness didn't say it again or didn't tell
24 you again, that's something which is within the realm of knowledge of the
25 witness; or whether they intentionally left out and, if so, for what
1 reason. I mean, those questions, of course, a witness could answer. And
2 therefore composition of a statement is a bit more of a complex issue
3 than just who wrote down at what moment, what exactly, but also on the
4 basis of what were notes taken. Did you say -- did you repeat this
5 again, you have told it the Karadzic Defence before, et cetera. These
6 are, as far as I can see at this moment, questions a witness can answer.
7 I don't know whether you have any objection to that as well.
8 MR. LUKIC: All I'm objecting is -- the questions asked about --
9 posed to the witness how the statement is composed --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --
11 MR. LUKIC: -- because they do not know that.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then I think matters become more or less
13 clear and --
14 MR. LUKIC: And if I can just explain why the statements are
15 almost the same. Of course, the same people, the same incidents, the
16 same indictment. Of course, that we had only some additions or
17 omissions. If the -- we are not interested, for example, in detailed
18 functioning of SDS or stuff like that. But if the witness is talking
19 about the same incident, and this witness did yesterday, the same
20 incident he testified previously in the Karadzic case, of course, that we
21 do not change much in that statement. We tried not to change much --
22 JUDGE ORIE: The issue is whether you change much or whether the
23 witness changes much, it's still a statement of a witness --
24 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
25 JUDGE ORIE: -- rather than a copied version of, and, of course,
1 you can ask questions about how the interview developed. All these
2 questions, in my view, are legitimate questions. But I do agree with
3 you, there are questions where the witness couldn't give an answer, and,
4 therefore, the answer would always be: I can't tell you, I don't know.
5 And we keep a close eye on that if such things will happen.
6 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: That is then dealt with. There was a preliminary
8 matter also by the Prosecution to be raised.
9 MR. WEBER: Good morning, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Weber.
11 MR. WEBER: Yesterday during the court proceedings, there was a
12 copy of the statement with notes on it. The Prosecution has had the
13 opportunity to -- to review that and we would be asking to increase our
14 cross-examination time, if we could respectively request that, for up to
15 45 minutes. Although I will try to be much more efficient in my
16 examination than the additional 45 minutes but we would need some
17 additional time.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
19 MR. LUKIC: I spoke with my colleague, Weber, this morning, and
20 we do not have any objections.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, when the Chamber left this courtroom
23 yesterday, I said to my colleagues, Oh, I said to the witness that it
24 would be given back after the break, and I noticed that he had not
25 received it yesterday, so I felt that I had not kept a promise.
1 Is the original available to be returned to the witness?
2 [Prosecution counsel confer]
3 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, we do have the copy here. And we can
4 provide it back to the -- to the Registry. However, could we see how the
5 examination goes and then decide whether or not it's something that the
6 Chamber may want --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Unless the witness raises the issue himself, that he
8 has not received it back yet --
9 MR. WEBER: Okay.
10 JUDGE ORIE: But it is his property and he gave it to you
11 voluntarily and not in a situation -- at least in a situation where he
12 could expect to get the original back. So for one reason or another,
13 that should be done, and if there would be any dispute as to handwriting
14 or, et cetera, and if you for that purpose need the original, you can
15 keep it for the session. If the witness raises the issue, we'll have to
16 deal with it.
17 So we leave it, at this moment, and we expect you -- and we'll
18 first wait for the -- how the examination develops.
19 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honour, and understood.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Then could the witness be escorted into the
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 [The witness takes the stand]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Maletic.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
1 JUDGE ORIE: First of all, our apologies that you had to wait for
2 half an hour, but we had some technical problems and some other
3 procedural issues we had to deal with first. But you're now here.
4 I'd like to remind you that you're still bound by the solemn
5 declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony, and
6 Mr. Weber will now continue his cross-examination.
7 Mr. Weber.
8 WITNESS: DRAGAN MALETIC [Resumed]
9 [Witness answered through interpreter]
10 Cross-examination by Mr. Weber: [Continued]
11 Q. Good morning, Mr. Maletic.
12 A. Good morning.
13 Q. Yesterday you mentioned that you had a conversation with
14 Predrag Trapara before your testimony started. Is it correct that you
15 discussed matters related to your testimony with him?
16 A. It was an informal conversation, and I only learned the names of
17 those two girls from him. I was aware of the event, but I didn't know
18 their names. He told me the names.
19 Q. How did this subject come up?
20 A. I don't recall it in such detail.
21 Q. You've both -- by the date you gave, it appears you both have
22 been here for -- for over a week. Did you talk with Mr. Trapara on any
23 other occasions?
24 A. We spoke before he began testifying.
25 Q. Okay. Was that on one occasion or on multiple occasions?
1 A. Perhaps a couple of times. I don't remember.
2 Q. Okay. Was this on a daily basis before he testified?
3 A. We discussed everything. Life and such. We talked about
4 anything that we could -- that we could think of when we saw each other.
5 Q. And my question, just going back to it, related to basically how
6 often you spoke with him between when you arrived in The Hague and before
7 Mr. Trapara's testimony. Can you tell us whether that was every day, a
8 couple of days? Approximately how many times?
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection.
10 It is an unclear question, causing confusion with the witness.
11 He needs to be asked whether he discussed the case with Trapara or
12 whether they talked about each other's lives, as the witness said.
13 There's a big difference.
14 JUDGE ORIE: No, no. Mr. Stojanovic, you can object to a
15 question, but you can't tell Mr. Weber what he should have asked.
16 Another matter is that the witness said already that it has been
17 several times. I don't know ... and your last question was: "Can you
18 tell us whether that was every day, a couple of days? Approximately how
19 many times?"
20 Could you be a bit more precise on how many conversations you had
21 with Mr. Trapara? You said: "Perhaps a couple of times."
22 Was it three times, five times, ten times?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Twice or thrice.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Was that on one day, or was it on more than one day?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps in a couple of days.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Did you speak with him alone; that is, under
2 four eyes? Or were others present during those conversations?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We were together. I spoke to him.
4 I spoke to Pedja because we hadn't seen each other for quite sometime.
5 We talked about each other's families, life, et cetera.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Pedja is -- is whom? Is that the same person, or is
7 that a third person?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Predrag Trapara. It is the same
10 JUDGE ORIE: Same person.
11 My question was whether you had these conversations under four
12 eyes or whether others were present as well. Was at any moment during
13 such a conversation someone else present who either listened or may have
14 participated in your conversations?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember such details.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Was ever any of the members of the Defence team
17 present when you had a conversation with Mr. Trapara?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, please proceed.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: One additional question, please.
21 When did you arrive in The Hague?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 16th, in the evening.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Weber.
25 MR. WEBER:
1 Q. When you spoke with Mr. Trapara, was it at the same location on
2 these different occasions?
3 A. I think we spoke in the hotel, in the lobby.
4 Q. And just so we have a clear record, was that on every occasion
5 that you spoke with him, that you're describing?
6 A. I'm not sure what you mean?
7 Q. I'll rephrase. Did you speak with him anywhere else besides the
9 A. I don't think so. Well, perhaps we did take a walk because I
10 walked a lot in these days. But I can't remember whether we took any
11 walks together. I don't think so, though. I think I only spoke to him
12 in the hotel.
13 Q. You've broadly said that you spoke with Mr. Trapara about a lot
14 of things; everything, I believe, is what you said. Aside from the two
15 girls, did you speak with him about any topic that related to your
16 evidence here, or Mr. Trapara's?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Did you watch Mr. Trapara's testimony?
19 A. No, I had no occasion to do so.
20 Q. Did you speak with Mr. Trapara at all after his testimony?
21 A. I think we saw each other after his testimony because he was
22 preparing to travel. But that was it.
23 Q. When you saw him after the testimony, did you discuss anything
24 related to his own testimony?
25 A. No.
1 Q. You didn't even ask him something simple, like: How did it go?
2 A. I don't remember. We don't share any particular common
3 interests, so there was no reason for me to ask.
4 Q. Okay. Have you seen or communicated with any other people that
5 have either testified already in this case or will be testifying in this
7 A. I saw some people who had testified and who are yet to testify,
8 but we didn't broach the topic. Because all of us were in different
9 places at the time, and we didn't have much in common.
10 Q. If we could just break this up. If you could just please give us
11 the names of the people that you've spoken with.
12 A. Mr. Cvoro. I have already mentioned Predrag Trapara.
13 Slavko Gengo. I don't recall any other names or --
14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: I can't recall the
15 names of the others.
16 MR. WEBER:
17 Q. Okay. There are possibly others that -- that were present. Do I
18 understand you correctly? Or that you've had conversations with?
19 A. During my stay here, I saw some of those people. We talked, we
20 learned about each other, we took walks, et cetera.
21 Q. Have you spoken with Milorad Dzida?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Okay. When I just asked you a second ago about the names, is
24 there any reason that you did not recall that you had spoken with
25 Mr. Dzida?
1 A. I said I couldn't remember, but I spoke to everyone who was here
2 until now. So whoever was here, up until now, I spoke to them.
3 Q. Was this all at one time or were these --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Could I --
5 MR. WEBER: Okay.
6 JUDGE ORIE: That's not a clear answer to the question.
7 A minute ago, when asked for names, you said:
8 "I don't remember the names of those with whom I had a
10 Mr. Weber then asked you, when you said a minute later, that you
11 had a conversation with Dzida, why you didn't remember his name a minute
12 before. Your answer now is, I spoke to all of them, which is not an
13 answer to the question. The question was: Why didn't you remember that
14 specific name, where you seem to remember it one minute later and without
15 any hesitation. Did you speak with Dzida; yes, I did. That's the
17 Have you an answer why a minute later you remembered the name?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I recalled his name. So let me say
19 it again. I talked to all of them. It's just that at that particular
20 moment I couldn't recall his name. So I talked to all of the witnesses
21 thus far.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Weber.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Weber, if I may just clear something on the
25 So you did speak to Mile Sladoje? If do you this, you're not
1 recorded. Say it loud -- say in your voice.
2 JUDGE ORIE: If you're nodding, it doesn't appear on --
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: On the record.
4 JUDGE ORIE: -- the transcript.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did you speak with Mile Sladoje?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We met. We hadn't met before,
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, but you spoke. You said you have spoken to
9 all of them. Mile Sladoje was here. Did you speak with him?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Branko Radan?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Dusan Skrba?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Nikola Mijatovic?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thanks.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Then one additional question.
19 You -- did you touch upon the subject of the testimony you were
20 all to give here in this courtroom? Did you talk about that?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Most of them I only met here,
22 so I talked to them when we were introduced, and so on.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So if I understand you well, you never
24 discussed testimony to be given or the subject of appearing before this
25 court as a witness. And then, suddenly, at one moment, either your
1 counterpart or you say: By the way, the names of the girls were A and B.
2 And that was not in the framework of any discussion about testifying. It
3 was just -- came out of the blue? You're not discussing testimony, and
4 suddenly he said: By the way, if you wouldn't know the names, these were
5 the names; or you said: Do you remember the names?
6 I have difficulties in understanding how this suddenly comes up
7 if you are speaking with no one about your testimony appearing as a
8 witness. Whereas the main and -- reason for you all to be here is that
9 you were called as witnesses.
10 I would -- if I were in such a situation -- it's not forbidden.
11 It's not in any way forbidden. I would have discussed with those I would
12 meet, because why not? I mean, that's what you're ... could you explain
13 that to me.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I talked with Predrag Trapara
15 shortly about the case. With others, I did not. Because we were not in
16 the same positions. Predrag Trapara was a member of our battalion. So,
17 in discussion, a short one, about my statement, when I mentioned this, he
18 reminded me of the names of the girls. I was aware of the incident, but
19 I did not know the names. He just told me that he did know them and that
20 was why I noted them, and I had been aware of the incident.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Weber.
22 MR. WEBER:
23 Q. Sir, yesterday you brought to court a copy of your statement with
24 notes on the -- the back page, or last pages. Could you just tell us
25 what these notes are?
1 A. I noted something down for myself in case I needed a reminder,
2 and that's it. Probably you were the first that read it but that was
3 something that I wrote.
4 Q. Were these notes based on your own personal knowledge or the
5 knowledge of anything that you heard or information you received from
6 anyone else?
7 A. Well, some of the things I heard or learned from others and so on
8 and so forth.
9 Q. Okay. If the Prosecution -- we'll go to these notes, and I'd
10 like to discuss them with you.
11 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 30720. If
12 we could please go to page 10 of the B/C/S and page 1 of the English
13 translation. There's just a single page of translation related to the
14 notes, but it's the full copy of the statement that was brought.
15 JUDGE ORIE: I see the text on one of the screens before me but
16 not mine. There we are.
17 MR. WEBER: Thank you very much.
18 Q. Sir, these are the notes that you produced yesterday in court.
19 On the page before you to the left, can you confirm that this is your
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. When did you write these notes?
23 A. These days, when I arrived here, to The Hague.
24 Q. Were they written all at once or on different occasions?
25 A. On several occasions.
1 Q. Now, there appears to be three lines drawn across the paper which
2 appear to divide your notes into four different sections. I'd like to go
3 through each one with you.
4 The first section, the translation that we have available states:
5 "If there were any it is allowed during the war time since there
6 were no conditions, that is the escape. There were no liquidations and
7 therefore such allegation is insignificant. And even if the conditions
8 were met but they weren't, such security vigilance is tolerant during the
10 Mr. Maletic, could you just tell us what -- what this is about.
11 A. This is about an order, and I'm reacting to it. I think it dated
12 from 1993. I was asked why, when someone approached the first line of
13 the front, if he wouldn't stop and began to flee, why he should be
15 Q. Okay. How did this come up that you felt that you needed to take
16 a note about this order?
17 A. I was confronted with it the previous time, when I was a witness
18 in the Karadzic case. That was why I noted it, approximately.
19 Q. Was this something that you discussed with other witnesses who
21 A. No.
22 Q. Okay. Let's go to the second section. It appears -- or it
24 "This is absolutely related to the military targets" --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Before we go to the -- this paragraph. The first
1 line in the previous paragraph reads: "... that is the escape."
2 Escape from what?
3 "If there were any it is allowed during the war since there were
4 no conditions, that is the escape."
5 Escape from what?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Escape from the separation line
7 that was the forward front line.
8 JUDGE ORIE: "If there were any ..." What does the "any" stand
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Any escapes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: What is "allowed during the war time"?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If someone approaches the forward
13 line, if he doesn't stop or if he begins to flee, such a person shall be
15 JUDGE ORIE: So "if there were any" relates, rather, to
16 liquidations than to escapes. Because "if there were any, it is allowed
17 during the war time." "Any," then, being to liquidate someone who tries
18 to escape?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is fired -- one is supposed to
20 fire at those who are attempting to escape.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, in this context, if I read the whole of
22 the line, the last few words "that is the escape," makes no sense anymore
23 in this line. Because then it would read "if there were any," that is,
24 firing at people who tried to escape, "it is allowed during the war time,
25 since there were no conditions, that is the escape."
1 It doesn't make sense to me at all, especially not the last
2 couple of words.
3 So, then, again, my question, escape from what, becomes more
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Escape from the forward line, to
6 the enemy line.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I still have difficulties in understanding it,
8 but I leave it to that at this moment.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: My problem - if I may just ask a question - is
11 that Judge Orie asked you "if there were any," and he said what is the
12 "any." You said escape, and later you said liquidation.
13 So which is which between those two? If there were any escapes
14 or if there were any liquidations? Seems to make sense if there were any
15 escapes it is allowed during war time since there were no conditions --
16 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Liquidation. I interrupted you. Say what you
18 want to say.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I continue there, and I say
20 there -- "since there were no conditions," that is, the escape, there
21 were no liquidations. And therefore such allegation is insignificant.
22 "And even if the conditions were met but they weren't, such security
23 vigilance is tolerant during the war."
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, you may proceed.
25 MR. WEBER:
1 Q. Was this a justification that you were expecting to provide for
2 allegations of sniping committed by members of the Sarajevo-Romanija
4 A. No.
5 Q. What's the allegations that you're referring to?
6 A. You will probably reach that section. It's an order of mine, the
7 details of which I cannot remember now. It dates from 1993. That
8 certain -- I can't remember now, but if we reach that part, I will note
9 it for you, and I will tell you what it is about.
10 Q. Sir, as I understand your evidence as of right now, you are
11 saying that you can't remember the nature of the allegations; is that
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: As I understand the witness, he doesn't remember
14 the order. Your -- he hasn't answered your question.
15 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honour. You're right.
16 Q. Do you recall the nature of the allegation?
17 A. If we get to that case, I will probably recall. I cannot
18 remember right now.
19 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, I know the schedule today was a
20 little -- I can take the break if Your Honours would like to go past
21 schedule or I can continue --
22 JUDGE ORIE: I think it would be best to take the break now and
23 then to continue in the usual order.
24 MR. WEBER: Okay.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness first be escorted out of the
2 [The witness stands down]
3 JUDGE ORIE: We take a break, and we'll resume at ten minutes to
5 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.
6 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE ORIE: I again have to apologise. There was some urgent
9 matters which kept us busy and which we thought would be more quickly
10 resolved than they actually were.
11 Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
12 [The witness takes the stand]
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, you may proceed.
14 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honours.
15 Q. Mr. Maletic, I'm going to go on to the second section from the
16 top in these notes. It states:
17 "This is absolutely related to the military targets and that can
18 be justified from the tactical point of view because it is related to the
19 military force from the opposing side. There was no such order, written
20 or verbal, in terms of civilians. There were many enemy points in that
21 area and legitimate military targets."
22 What was this section about?
23 A. During my previous testimony, I was confronted by something that
24 another witness said, that they were given orders to shoot at anything
25 that was moving, which is not correct. So I noted this in case you were
1 to ask me the same thing. I would say that the idea was that it was
2 legitimate to target military targets and that there was never either a
3 written or a verbal order to target civilians but to target enemy
5 Q. The section, I believe, concludes that -- with the statement:
6 "Such statements are arbitrary and fabricated. If he made such
7 statement, did he act upon it."
8 What statements are you talking about?
9 A. I wonder, actually - this is my opinion - I wonder if he had such
10 an order to shoot at the other side. If he received something like that,
11 did he act in accordance with it. That's what I'm wondering here.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Who is this "he"?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. There was a
14 testimony. It was a protected witness, and it was presented to me that
15 he claimed that we ordered that any moving targets on the opposing side
16 should be shot at. And I claim that we never issued any such orders,
17 that civilian targets were to be shot at, but, rather, just the military
19 JUDGE ORIE: Who presented that to you?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was during the previous trial.
21 That's where they presented it to me and so I noted it down.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I -- of course, the Chamber has no -- has not
23 looked into the Karadzic transcripts and so, therefore, I take it that
24 the parties will be able to identify what the witness is now talking
1 Please proceed.
2 MR. WEBER:
3 Q. Was this anything that you discussed with anyone prior to your
4 testimony in this case?
5 A. No.
6 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, unless you had any other questions on
7 this section I was going to go to the next one.
8 JUDGE ORIE: You can go to the next one. But, of course, the
9 Chamber would -- since it's not in evidence would appreciate if the
10 parties would verify whether and what statement was put to the witness in
11 a previous testimony as he tells us now, whether that happened; and, if
12 so, what statement that was.
13 MR. WEBER: Understood, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, and I leave it to either you,
15 Mr. Stojanovic, or you, Mr. Weber. Please proceed.
16 MR. WEBER:
17 Q. The next section states:
18 "Pursuant to the decision of the RS Supreme Court in 1992, the
19 status of a volunteer in the RS -- VRS is that the volunteer in the VRS
20 has no attribute of voluntariness but is a legitimate and legal member of
21 the VRS who can join the army voluntarily but as such could not leave the
22 unit without authorisation of the command because he had the same
23 treatment like any other combatant."
24 Same question, Mr. Maletic: What is this about?
25 A. I noted this for myself, and it is with regard to volunteers.
1 Q. Why did you -- why would you make note of volunteers in advance
2 of your testimony?
3 A. Why not?
4 Q. Okay.
5 A. It was a note of mine, a personal note.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber is asking you what the relevance of such a
7 note was in this context. And to say: It's my note, and why not? You
8 could have made notes about the Olympic Winter Games as well, but that,
9 of course, is not -- doesn't explain what the relevance for it is.
10 So could you please answer that question.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, if the Prosecutor were to ask
12 me about volunteers, then I would read out this paragraph to him.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Why about volunteers? Have you been a volunteer?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Why did you deal with -- why did you expect to be
16 asked about volunteers?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I expected that, so in case I
18 was asked that, I wanted to know what I would say. I was asked about
19 that in the previous trial so that was why I supposed that the Prosecutor
20 could ask me that here.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Now I understand that. Thank you.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Were there any volunteers in your unit or the
23 units you were in?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, there were a few volunteers.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
1 Please proceed, Mr. Weber.
2 MR. WEBER:
3 Q. Since we're on that topic, could you tell us their names?
4 A. Whose names?
5 Q. The names of the volunteers that were in your unit.
6 A. I couldn't tell you. I can't remember the names. In my unit, in
7 my company, there were between 100 and 120 men and around 1.000 men in
8 the battalion, so I can't remember the names.
9 MR. WEBER: Did Your Honours have any other questions about this
11 JUDGE ORIE: No. Please proceed.
12 MR. WEBER:
13 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Could we move briefly into private session.
17 [Private session]
11 Pages 21793-21794 redacted. Private session.
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
15 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution, at this time, tenders 65 ter 30720
16 into evidence.
17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No objection.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the number would be?
19 THE REGISTRAR: Document 30720 receives number P6540,
20 Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: P6540 is admitted.
22 MR. WEBER:
23 Q. Mr. Maletic, I'm now going to through a number of topics with you
24 for the rest of today.
25 Starting when you were the battalion's assistant commander for
1 intelligence and security, did you allow people to freely move around
2 your zone of responsibility?
3 A. Well, there was freedom of movement. I don't understand.
4 Q. Did you ever issue orders to deprive individuals of their freedom
5 to move throughout your zone?
6 A. Yes.
7 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 30693.
8 JUDGE ORIE: The right answer to the previous question would
9 therefore have been: We allowed but not always. If you order
10 restrictions on it, then the answer "there was freedom of movement" is
11 not a complete answer.
12 Could I remind you that you're not only bound to tell us the
13 truth but even the whole truth.
14 Please proceed.
15 MR. WEBER: Thanks for your patience, Your Honours.
16 Q. Sir, before you is an information report you sent to the
17 4th Company on the 6th of March, 1993. In this document, you indicate
18 that there were three foreign journalists from Australia and Holland on
19 RS territory.
20 You state that these journalists:
21 "Demonstrated unhidden hatred and lack of objectivity where Serbs
22 were concerned. By their writing, footages and reporting, the said
23 persons caused invaluable harm to the Serb people on the international
25 Is it correct that these journalists were reporting on the
1 activities and crimes that were being committed by the VRS and you felt
2 this coverage was not objective?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Okay. Then what -- how did they lack objectivity, according to
6 A. That information we received from the brigade command. And then
7 we sent it further down to the level of companies. And then we would
8 forward that; that is to say, information received from the brigade
10 Q. Sir, please listen to my question carefully. What I asked you
11 was: How did these journalists lack objectivity?
12 A. Well, probably -- well, you see here, the mentioned journalists
13 in their work to date demonstrated unhidden hatred and lack of
14 objectivity towards Serbs. That's written here.
15 Therefore, control should be enhanced and if these persons are
16 found, they should be deprived of their freedom of movement and brought
17 into the battalion command.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, there seems to be a confusion between
19 question and the understanding of the answer. You asked whether the
20 witness felt and what, according to him, was not objective.
21 MR. WEBER: Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: The witness's answer was: We received these orders
23 and we passed them on. Meaning that the witness may not have developed
24 his own judgement on the objectivity but it was sent to him.
25 MR. WEBER: Yeah.
1 Q. Sir, if we could go to the signature line on this document. It's
2 on the second page, I believe. Or at the bottom.
3 Sir, that's -- that's your signature on this document, is that
4 correct? This is a report from you?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Sir, is on that basis, since you are the actual author of this
7 document, what your reference was to the journalists' lack of
8 objectivity, what you did mean by that?
9 A. I received that information from the brigade command, and I sent
10 it on to company level. I rephrased the order, sent it to company level,
11 so I am not familiar with the journalists. I'm only familiar with the
12 information that I passed on. But I compiled this note or, rather, this
13 information and I signed it.
14 Q. That's understood. You've mentioned this, that the -- that --
15 well, in this document, you order the 4th Company to immediately deprive
16 the journalists of their freedom of movement and seize their documents,
17 material, and equipment.
18 Did -- did your battalion, after you gave orders like this, carry
19 them out?
20 A. We did not have this specific case, so we did not bring them in.
21 Q. Okay. Is it correct that you had the ability to control the
22 movement of individuals throughout your zone of responsibility? You had
23 the ability to issue orders to do such a thing; correct?
24 A. We could not follow the depth of movement. We could not follow
25 anyone. And the journalists were there. This refers to the first line
1 of combat, the actual front line.
2 Q. Is it correct that you had the authority to issue orders to
3 restrict the movement of others?
4 A. No. We got that by way of information or orders from the brigade
5 command. I did not have the right to ban movement.
6 Q. Okay. Did you -- I'll move on then.
7 MR. WEBER: We tender this document into evidence, if we could,
8 please. 65 ter 30693.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Document 30693 receives number P6541,
11 Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: P6541 is admitted.
13 MR. WEBER:
14 Q. Sir, is it correct that soldiers are prohibited from committing
16 Sir, did you hear my question?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Okay. I'll repeat it since the record might not be clear right
20 Is it correct that soldiers are prohibited from committing rape?
21 A. That's always prohibited, in wartime and in peacetime, to rape.
22 Q. Did you ever investigate any soldiers in Grbavica for committing
24 A. No.
25 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P346,
1 page 158 of the English translation, and page 160 of the B/C/S.
2 Q. Sir, coming up before you will be an entry from General Mladic's
3 notebooks dated 25 March 1993. It's with respect to a meeting between
4 General Mladic and Prime Minister Radomir Lukic. In this entry, and it's
5 a little up from the bottom for you, General Mladic records:
6 "Some soldiers rape even Serbian women (in Grbavica). (Lukic)
7 himself took someone who had done this out of Sarajevo (he wouldn't say
8 his name)."
9 Is it correct that this entry reflects the living conditions that
10 were existing inside of Grbavica?
11 A. I am saying for my own part -- actually, first, when I was
12 company commander in 1992, as for my area of defence, these soldiers did
13 not rape anyone. That is what I am asserting.
14 As for in-depth in Grbavica, I don't know what happened there.
15 Q. Sir, this entry is from 1993. You were the assistant commander
16 for security and intelligence for this area in 1993. Are you saying that
17 were not aware of something that General Mladic was aware of and the
18 prime minister of Republika Srpska was also aware of?
19 Is that what you're saying?
20 A. I'm trying to say that that did not happen in my battalion.
21 Q. Okay. Are you aware of soldiers committing rape in Grbavica?
22 A. I was not aware of that.
23 Q. Sir, I put it to that you your testimony of not knowing about
24 these rapes lacks credibility. General Mladic and Prime Minister Lukic
25 were aware of these rapes and that you were in a position to know, and
1 here today you are claiming not to. Do you have any comment?
2 A. I am saying that no one from my battalion, that is to say, I
3 don't know of any rapes, and no one from my battalion committed any
4 rapes. That is what I'm saying.
5 Q. Did anyone -- did General Mladic or anyone else from the --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, you know that you are supposed to remain
7 seated, and -- Mr. Stojanovic.
8 No -- no loud speaking, Mr. Mladic. And if you stand up again,
9 you're removed from the courtroom. Let that be clear. And the same is
10 true for any loud speaking on from now.
11 Please proceed, Mr. Weber.
12 MR. WEBER:
13 Q. Is it then correct that you never received any instruction from a
14 superior command or General Mladic to investigate this information?
15 A. An investigation was not carried out. I repeat: I did not know
16 and there were no rapes in my battalion. So there was no investigation
18 JUDGE ORIE: Could -- could I seek clarification.
19 You are again and again repeating "in my battalion." I do
20 understand clearly from your answer that you say that no soldier in your
21 battalion committed rape.
22 Do you have any awareness of soldiers outside your battalion or
23 even non-soldiers committing rapes in Grbavica?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not aware.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Weber.
1 MR. WEBER:
2 Q. Did any Serb women from Grbavica ever make a complaint?
3 A. I am not familiar with such information. Maybe some reports were
4 made at the police station, the civilian police station. That was in the
5 depth of the territory, but, believe me, I'm not aware of that.
6 As for everything that happened in depth, it was the civilian
7 police that was in charge, and they were carrying out these tasks,
8 preventing looting, rape, and so on.
9 Q. Sir, just so you know, it's our position that that answer is --
10 is not correct, that the military authorities would have had the
11 authority over carrying out discipline for soldiers who committed rapes.
12 Do you not agree?
13 A. No problem. But I claim that there were no rapes in my
14 battalion. That's what I've been saying.
15 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next topic.
16 Is it correct that soldiers are prohibited from looting?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did you ever investigate any soldiers in Grbavica for looting?
19 A. No.
20 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P357,
21 requesting page 79 of the English and page 80 of the B/C/S.
22 Q. Sir, coming up before you will be another entry from
23 General Mladic's notebooks, dated 21 January 1993, from a session with
24 the Supreme Command.
25 In this entry, I'm going to be directing you to the notes under
1 Colonel Kovacevic's name. This entry records Colonel Kovacevic as
3 "He (Colonel Milosevic) is very brave and audacious. He did not
4 cope well at Grbavica because did he not prevent looting and crime ..."
5 Is it correct that your initial brigade commander,
6 then-Colonel Dragomir Milosevic, did not take action to prevent the
7 looting and crime in Grbavica?
8 A. As far as I know, there were always orders about the prohibition
9 of crime, looting, and so on.
10 Q. It appears from this entry that looting and crime were taking
11 place in Grbavica. Were you aware of this?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Again, sir, we have General Mladic at a meeting with the
14 Supreme Command, which appears to include President Karadzic, the prime
15 minister again, what appears to be possibly Bogdan Subotic and other
16 high-ranking members. Is it really your evidence that General Mladic and
17 these individuals in these very high positions would know about looting
18 and crime in Grbavica and you who is the assistant commander of security
19 and intelligence for that very area would not?
20 A. Yes. Yes, I didn't know.
21 Q. Again, I put it to you that your evidence on this lacks
22 credibility. You were there every day and you were in a position to
23 know, and you are claiming not to. Do you have any comment?
24 A. All I can say is that I don't know what happened in depth in
25 Grbavica because it is a large piece of territory. I'm not familiar with
2 Q. It was your zone of responsibility; correct?
3 A. It wasn't solely our zone of responsibility, and it wasn't only
4 our soldiers were there. Grbavica is much bigger than that. There were
5 other soldiers, and there were policemen there. So it wasn't exclusively
6 my zone of responsibility.
7 Q. And I just want to be clear: Are you claiming that with respect
8 to when you were a company commander or also when you were battalion
9 commander -- or assistant commander? Excuse me, sir.
10 A. Both.
11 Q. Is it your evidence that you never became aware of any soldiers
12 that were committing looting or other crimes?
13 A. As concerns my unit, that is correct.
14 Q. Sir, my question wasn't limited to your unit.
15 A. I said I wasn't familiar with that. I only spoke of my unit. As
16 for the rest, I had no such information or knowledge.
17 Q. Sir, I'm just going to pause here for a second. Throughout your
18 statement, you claim to have very detailed information about stuff that
19 is going on on the opposing side of the confrontation line, areas that I
20 imagine you did not actually go to. How is it that you are claiming that
21 you have no knowledge of areas that you were around during the -- the
22 time of the war, that were, in fact, part of your zone of responsibility?
23 A. I interviewed defectors, those who escaped from the other side,
24 and I obtained information in that way. That is why -- how I knew about
25 what was going on on the other side. At least to a certain extent.
1 Q. What I'm saying to you, sir, is that there seems to be quite a
2 contrast. How is it not -- that you would not know similar information
3 about what is going on on your own side?
4 A. As for the depth of our territory, it was in the area of our
5 police. They were taking care of it. They were actually tasked with
6 working there.
7 Q. Okay.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, please move on.
9 MR. WEBER: Okay. Thank you.
10 Q. I'd like to go onto -- is it correct that a military is
11 prohibited from forcing the expulsions of civilians from an area?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you ever take any action to -- or with respect to expulsions
14 of civilians from Grbavica?
15 A. I didn't understand your question. Could you reformulate?
16 Q. Did you ever participate or become aware of expulsions of
17 civilians from Grbavica?
18 A. No. I'm not aware of any civilians being forced to leave
20 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P307.
21 Q. Sir, coming up before you is a UN CIVPOL occurrence report dated
22 30 September 1992. It's regarding the expulsion of Muslim civilians from
24 In the second paragraph, this report indicates that the
25 preliminary information confirmed that the expulsion was in progress, and
1 the Muslims were gathering at the Bristol Hotel.
2 It further indicates that the civil affairs unit was unaware of
3 the exact situation at that time.
4 If I could direct you down to the fourth paragraph, which, in the
5 B/C/S, continues onto the next page, the report indicates the civil
6 affairs unit arrived and made a series of observations.
7 MR. WEBER: Could we please have the next page for the witness in
8 the B/C/S?
9 Q. As you read on, the unit was able to confirm that approximately
10 300 Muslim civilians were expelled by the Serbs from the area of
12 Do you agree that this act, that expelling Muslim -- part of the
13 Muslim population from Grbavica was an act that was prohibited by the
14 rules of war?
15 A. Expulsion is prohibited. As for those who left Grbavica, perhaps
16 it was in agreement with the civilian authorities that they demanded to
17 leave. I don't know about that. You would need to put that question to
18 a representative of the civilian authorities.
19 Q. Are you again claiming that you were not aware of this event?
20 A. I claim that I was unaware of this situation.
21 Q. Okay. This paragraph continues to state information about the
22 Red Cross. It says, and this goes onto the next page in the English:
23 "Red Cross member confirmed that the expelled Muslims travelled
24 to this area by foot using two different bridges, one identified as
25 Vrbanja Most, near the Assembly building, and the other one just behind
1 the hotel."
2 Is it correct that Vrbanja Most was a bridge that was located in
3 your area of responsibility, your zone of responsibility when you were a
4 company commander, that that was one of the borders of your company's
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. I put it to you that your evidence is incredible that
8 300 individuals would be expelled across the very bridge for which you
9 would be responsible. Do you have any comment?
10 A. No.
11 [Prosecution counsel confer]
12 Q. Sir, I have a few questions now before the next break about
13 Veselin Vlahovic, also known as Batko, and Zoran Vitkovic, who you
14 discuss in paragraph 39 of your statement.
15 During your Karadzic testimony, this is at page 30878, you
17 "I spoke about Zoran Vitkovic and I said that since at the time I
18 was a soldier, I only know - and I included that in my statement - that
19 there was a group under the command of Zoran Vitkovic and they were
20 headquartered in the building --"
21 And then the transcript cuts off.
22 There's an interpreter's note, then, in the transcript indicating
23 the name of the building was not heard.
24 Could you please tell us the name of the building where this
25 group was headquartered?
1 A. Digitron Buje.
2 Q. Where is this building located in Grbavica?
3 A. I don't know how to explain. I don't have a photograph to
4 explain. It is at the foot of some stairs which eventually lead you up
5 to Vrace.
6 Q. Okay. How big was the size of Batko's group that was
7 headquartered in this building?
8 A. I don't know.
9 Q. Were these individuals volunteers?
10 A. I don't know. I briefly mentioned everything I knew about the
11 group in my statement. That's all I know.
12 Q. During your -- during your Karadzic testimony, it continues:
13 "They used to go to certain sections of the front line where the
14 Serbian fighters needed assistance because they were under enemy attack.
15 During one such attack by the Muslim forces, Zoran Vitkovic got killed."
16 Do you stand -- stand by this statement today, from your Karadzic
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. When you say that this group would go to certain sections of the
20 front line where Serbian fighters needed assistance, who are the Serbian
21 fighters you are referring to?
22 A. They went to assist wherever Muslims attacked and wherever help
23 was needed. That's all I know.
24 Q. Is it correct that this is -- this was help on the front lines
25 where your forces were positioned?
1 A. They didn't come to assist me. They didn't come to lend
2 assistance in the area between one bridge and the other.
3 Q. Who are the --
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I just interrupt.
5 I just wanted to find out from you, Witness, when you say "they
6 went to assist whenever Muslims attacked," who were the Muslims
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Serb positions.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] -- what positions, what
10 Serb positions? Serb civilian positions or Serb -- what positions were
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do have you in mind this group
13 which came to assist?
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] -- the group, that's
15 what you are telling us, the group that you are telling us came to
16 assist. What Serb positions were being attacked? What do you mean by
17 "Serb positions"?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Wherever it was necessary. If a
19 Serbian line was in danger, they came to assist.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: What Serbian line? Just tell me what Serbs were
21 being attacked. What is this Serbian line or this Serb position?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When a line was established, the
23 group would come to particular parts of that line if there was any need.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Who established the line?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Both we and the Muslims established
1 lines. We were on one side, and they were on the other side.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: When you say "we," who do you mean?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Serb army on one side and the
4 Muslim army on the other.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: When you say "the Serb army," you mean the VRS?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you would have answered the first question
9 by "VRS lines," then it would have avoided the whole of the confusion.
10 But if I understand you well, if VRS positions, that is, military
11 positions, the Serb -- the Republika Srpska Army positions were attacked
12 by the Muslims, then those volunteers would come to assist against such
13 an attack.
14 Is that well understood?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. What I said was that this
16 group, which existed at the beginning of the war, came to assist. But
17 they did not stand guard like my soldiers. They came to assist.
18 JUDGE ORIE: So they came and assisted when an attack was
19 launched in defending the Serb positions, the VRS positions. Is that
20 well understood? I'm not asking about standing guard. I'm coming to
21 assist when an attack took place. To defend the VRS positions.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that the group commanded by
23 Zoran Vitkovic went wherever necessary, to assist in order to defend VRS
24 positions. In one such attack, Zoran Vitkovic was killed, and the group
25 disbanded. His soldiers went their separate ways. I don't know what
1 then happened with those soldiers. They were simply no longer to be
3 That is what I talked about.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, I was talking also about the period
5 in which the group existed. I mean, you can't say much about the
6 activity of a group if it doesn't exist any further.
7 So I think the way in which I summarised it, you did not at least
8 challenge or contradict that. That is, they came, this group, when still
9 in existence, came at times when VRS positions were under attack to
10 assist in defending those positions.
11 That is how I understood your testimony. And unless you have a
12 clear comment on it, then I'm looking at both parties, whether this is
13 how one would reasonably understand this.
14 There's no need to look at the Defence, Mr. Witness.
15 Mr. Maletic, is that --
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: It's five minutes past 12.00. We'll take a break,
18 Mr. Mladic, so then you have an opportunity to consult with
19 Mr. Stojanovic.
20 Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom. We'll take a
21 break of 20 minutes.
22 [The witness stands down]
23 JUDGE ORIE: We'll resume at 25 minutes past 12.00.
24 --- Recess taken at 12.05 p.m.
25 --- On resuming at 12.31 p.m.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, you are on your feet. It seems to be the
2 day of the short delays in our start, but let's try next time to be all
3 there in time.
4 Mr. Weber.
5 MR. WEBER: Yes. I just wanted to, in terms of court scheduling,
6 inform the Chamber that I think I'll be approximately another 20 minutes,
7 so ...
8 JUDGE ORIE: I think, then, in view of the information I have,
9 that is still within the time-limits. There was quite a bit of
10 questioning by the Judges as well. That's okay. 20 minutes.
11 [The witness takes the stand]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, already an indication as to how much
13 time you'd then need?
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] At this moment, Your Honour, my
15 assessment that -- is that I will need ten minutes at the most.
16 JUDGE ORIE: That means that the next witness should remain
17 standby to start his testimony today.
18 Please proceed, Mr. Weber.
19 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P353,
20 page 173 of the English, and page 171 of the B/C/S.
21 Q. Sir, we're going to be looking at another entry from
22 General Mladic's notebooks. This one is from the 16th of June, 1992, and
23 it records a meeting with Colonel Dragomir Milosevic and the other
24 commanders of units in Sarajevo.
25 MR. WEBER: And if, for the witness, we could please have the
1 next page in the B/C/S. I believe that's where the statement I will be
2 reading is present.
3 Q. In this entry, Colonel Milosevic is recorded as stating:
4 "Civilians, free people, and soldiers steal. Zoran Vitkovic is
5 the chief of those who steal ..."
6 Is it correct that this is the same Zoran Vitkovic that you are
7 referring to in your statement?
8 A. I think it is the same person. I am not aware of the fact that
9 there may have been two Zoran Vitkovics.
10 Q. Sir, in this entry, Dragomir Milosevic, who is your brigade
11 commander, again, at that time, is aware of Zoran Vitkovic as being the
12 chief of those who steal and that soldiers are also stealing. How is it
13 that you can explain to us that you were not aware of this?
14 A. I explained the situation about my unit. I also explained that I
15 basically didn't know Zoran Vitkovic and that he was not a member of my
16 unit, nor was I a member of his unit.
17 Q. Sir, I just want to read you a passage from your Karadzic
18 testimony, and this is regarding the same exact entry that we're looking
19 at right now.
20 The question that was put to you is:
21 "And that's the same Zoran Vitkovic that you referred to in your
22 statement, isn't it, Mr. Maletic?"
23 Your answer:
24 "Yes, yes. I spoke about Zoran Vitkovic and I said that since,
25 at the time I was a soldier, I only know - and I include that in my
1 statement - that there was a group under the command of Zoran Vitkovic
2 and they were headquartered in the building."
3 Do you stand by this evidence?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Sir, I again put it to you that your evidence is not credible.
6 Here we have General Mladic and the commanders of the brigades of the SRK
7 being aware of this information, and I put it to you it is not credible,
8 your evidence of a person who you discuss, that you were not aware of his
9 proclivity for stealing. Do you have any comment?
10 A. I said everything I knew in my statement. I stand by that.
11 MR. WEBER: If we could please go into private session for the
12 next matter.
13 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
14 [Private session]
11 Pages 21815-21818 redacted. Private session.
16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
19 Please proceed, Mr. Weber.
20 MR. WEBER:
21 Q. Mr. Maletic, were you informed by your superiors about anything
22 related to the use of prisoners for forced labour?
23 A. I do not understand the question.
24 Q. Well, in paragraph 18 of your statement, you indicate that your
25 superior command informed you about the actions that were against the
1 rules of war. Did they tell you anything about forced labour?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did they tell anything about whether using prisoners of war for
4 dangerous work details is contrary to the rules of war?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Are you aware that placing prisoners in life-threatening
7 conditions is prohibited?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Mr. Maletic, at this time, I'm going to ask you to watch a video
10 and then I will have a few questions for you. If at any point in time
11 you need to re-see a portion of the video or watch it a second time, just
12 let us know and we'll replay parts of it for you.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any text in it, Mr. Weber?
14 MR. WEBER: There is. We've disseminated the transcripts to the
15 booths. I'm going to be asking Ms. Stewart to please play a portion of
16 Exhibit P81.
17 JUDGE ORIE: What's the duration approximately? Because we have
18 to play it twice if there's any spoken text.
19 MR. WEBER: 58 seconds.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
21 MR. WEBER: And it's beginning at time code 1 minute, 49 seconds.
22 [Video-clip played]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, we received everything in English, but I
24 do not know whether the English text was also received in B/C/S by those
25 who are listening to the B/C/S channel.
1 Was B/C/S, was there any translation? I see Mr. Mladic nodding
2 no. Therefore, it will be played again and then I expect B/C/S
3 translation to be on the earphones of those who are listening to the
4 B/C/S channel.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we were a bit confused by some of the Defence
7 team members nodding that there had been translation but Mr. Mladic
8 nodding that he had not received it.
9 Let's play it again. And if you could give us further
10 information about time-frame, et cetera, Mr. Weber.
11 MR. WEBER: This came in through Mr. Van Lynden's evidence and I
12 can look up additional information for the --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. He is speaking himself, at least that's what I
14 heard but --
15 MR. WEBER: Yes, that is correct.
16 JUDGE ORIE: -- he doesn't say what year or what month or what --
17 MR. WEBER: I'm going to be asking the witness further questions
18 about his awareness and knowledge after the clip is played.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. Let's play it again.
20 [Video-clip played]
21 "At Kula that doesn't happen, but the men are forced to work in
22 fields close to Sarajevo's battlegrounds. Some are being hit out in the
23 open, but more have suffered according to the prisoners when they're
24 taken to dig trenches in Sarajevo's front lines, in complete
25 contradiction of all war conventions."
1 "They take us in teams of ten to dig trenches between front line
2 buildings. Usually three dig and three others throw out the earth. It's
3 dangerous. One prisoner has been killed and two wounded.
4 "The Serb warden promises the men will be released if an exchange
5 can be arranged. But none of them are likely to ever be able to return
6 to their home village, now firmly in Serb hands.
7 "Aernout van Lynden, Sky News, Sarajevo."
8 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, if we could just confirm with the
9 witness that he actually received some type of translation --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I listened to the B/C/S channel and there was
11 a clear translation on there and same for the French, so there's no --
12 you've heard it in your own language, I take it.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
15 MR. WEBER: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
16 Q. Before going into what we just saw, is it correct that your
17 battalion used prisoners from the Kula KPD to perform labour on the front
19 A. Rarely, but yes.
20 Q. Okay. Is it correct that you personally were involved with the
21 use of prisoners from the Kula KPD?
22 A. No.
23 Q. We just heard some comments of prisoners who were from the Kula
24 KPD. This is from an international broadcast. Were you aware of these
25 allegations at any time during the war?
1 A. I don't remember. I don't know.
2 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution now please have --
3 Q. So you never saw any type of broadcast like the one that we just
4 saw during your time as a company commander or as an assistant commander
5 in your battalion?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Very well.
8 MR. WEBER: If we could please go to 65 ter 3068 -- sorry, 30686.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Before -- before we continue, how did you learn
10 about occasionally using prisoners to perform labour on the front lines?
11 How did you learn that, if it was not from Sky News, which I can
12 understand, but how did you learn about that?
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have a document here in front of
15 me which I signed. It's a report on the escape of two prisoners. They
16 worked in the area of our battalion --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'd asked you how you learned about it. Do
18 you say it was at this occasion that you learned about it? Because I
19 didn't refer to any document in my question.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was aware of this document
21 because I signed it.
22 JUDGE ORIE: I'll wait first for the questions further to be put
23 by Mr. Weber and then see whether there are any remaining questions.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: I have -- I have a few questions.
25 You -- you were the commander of your battalion, weren't you?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Who was the commander?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the time, it was
4 Aleksandar Stojanovic.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you know who ordered these people to do this
6 labour that you refer to where you were asked:
7 "Before going into what we just saw, is it correct that your
8 battalion used prisoners from the Kula KPD to perform labour on the front
10 And you said: "Rarely, but yes."
11 Who had given this order for them to do this job?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It wasn't an order. It's probable
13 that our battalion commander requested from the Kula prison management
14 and probably asked for a specific number of prisoners who would work on
15 the line.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, how did you become aware of the fact that the
17 prisoners were made to work on the front line by your battalion?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I was informed.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: By who?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I suppose the battalion commander.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Weber.
22 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, and just since it was a query from the
23 Chamber, I would note paragraph 17 of Mr. Van Lynden's statement that
24 indicates that the video was from September 1992.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that.
1 MR. WEBER: It's Exhibit P66.
2 Q. Mr. Maletic, before you is a report you drafted on 21 May 1993
3 regarding the escape of two Muslim prisoners.
4 Directing your attention to the second paragraph, it mentions
5 Zeljko Mitrovic from your battalion. He was one of the individuals that
6 you said attended your battalion meetings. What specifically was his
7 position and his responsibility?
8 A. He came to meetings occasionally, and he worked with civilians,
9 with prisoners, and other civilians.
10 Q. Was that his sole responsibility in your battalion?
11 A. I think so, yes.
12 Q. In the fourth paragraph, you write about how the prisoners were
13 shot at while they attempted to escape.
14 Who is it that authorised the use of deadly force against
15 prisoners in the event that they attempted to escape?
16 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please quote exactly what you're referring
17 to, Mr. ... I now see.
18 MR. WEBER: [Overlapping speakers] ...
19 JUDGE ORIE: Are you -- you are referring to Mitrovic and the two
20 soldiers who were with him immediately fired after the prisoners but they
21 did not prevent the escape. That was it.
22 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honour. And I -- if that was not
23 clear, I -- I can use the exact quote.
24 JUDGE ORIE: No, we have now read that. Could you please answer
25 the question: Who authorised firing at civilian prisoners trying to
1 escape under those circumstances?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No one approved. It was believed
3 that if someone was trying to escape from our front line to the enemy
4 front line, then we should fire because they were not supposed to
5 disclose where our position was.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Now, are you telling us that if you take civilian
7 prisoners from a prison, you put them close to the confrontation line
8 where they are at risk to be hit by fire from the opposite party, and
9 that if they try to escape such a situation, that it's justifiable to
10 shoot at them because they might disclose your positions, where you had
11 brought them yourselves?
12 Is that your explanation?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't bring them there.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Your people brought them there, isn't it? They
15 didn't say, Where shall we go today? Let's go to the confrontation lines
16 and see whether we can build some bunkers.
17 They were brought there by your -- by your people, isn't it?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct. But if they
19 had not escaped, nobody would have fired at them.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And if they would not have been brought there,
21 they would not have been in the position to disclose your positions.
22 Isn't it?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Now, do you consider that under those circumstances
25 that the laws of warfare, first of all, allow them to bring them there;
1 and, second, to shoot at them if they want to escape that situation?
2 Is that your position?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, that's not my position. I just
4 made a note about what happened and how. I know that it is prohibited to
5 use prisoners to work on the forward front line, and I did not order
6 this. I just made a note about what happened.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I think you did a bit more, but ... okay.
8 Let's leave it.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I follow up on that one.
10 You told us a few minutes ago:
11 "It was believed that if someone was trying to escape from our
12 front line to the enemy front line, then we should fire because they were
13 not supposed to disclose where our position was."
14 That was your belief. Now, you can't say that was not your
15 position. What's your position?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In this situation, my position is
17 not important. I just wrote a note in terms of what had happened. Do
18 understand what I'm saying?
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not asking about the note you wrote. I'm
20 asking you about what you testified here a few minutes ago. If you want
21 the reference, I can tell you. It is page 59, at lines 17 to 20.
22 JUDGE ORIE: It was just read to you. You expressed yourself on
23 you believed what was appropriate to do under those circumstances.
24 And the question -- my question and Judge Moloto's question was:
25 On what basis do you believe that this is appropriate to do?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Since they had already come on the
2 basis of somebody's order to the front line, if they're working on the
3 front line, so it would only be logical if they started to flee, they
4 would disclose where our positions were. And they were made aware of
5 that, that if they tried to escape, they would be shot at.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's then clearly your position.
7 Mr. Weber, please proceed.
8 MR. WEBER:
9 Q. Did you ever arrest or detain or conduct any investigation
10 related to Zeljko Mitrovic and this event?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Is it correct that this report was sent to your superior
13 commands, in both the security organs and in the brigade?
14 A. Probably.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can we get the document back on our screens? It
16 disappeared in the meantime.
17 I just asked for the document. You should proceed.
18 MR. WEBER: Oh. Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Q. We see that this document is addressed to the administration of
20 the Kula KPD. My question was: Is it correct that you also -- or did
21 you send this report also to your superior commands, in both the security
22 organs and in the brigade?
23 A. Probably, yes.
24 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution tenders 65 ter 30686 into evidence.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Before we do that, I would like to put a question
1 with respect to this document.
2 If I remember correctly, you said it is not correct to bring
3 prisoners to the front line for work there under very dangerous
5 Is that correctly understood?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I would like to take you to -- back to this
8 document and in the third paragraph, it is said:
9 "According to Mitrovic, the place where the work was carried out
10 was under constant enemy infantry and rifle grenade fire, and observation
11 was difficult because it was dusk."
12 And then in the penultimate paragraph, there is this sentence:
13 "The work was carried out at night because that place was under
14 constant enemy fire, which made it impossible to carry out the work
15 during the day."
16 Have you any comment -- it is part of your report. Any comment
17 on the -- this statement that it was very dangerous to bring the people
18 there for forced labour?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have no comment to make in this
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You have been assistant commander for
22 intelligence and security. When you learned that these prisoners were
23 brought there, wasn't it your obligation to investigate this matter?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You see, there 's this one thing.
25 I mean, I was at that position in that location. I'm a civilian. Most
1 of us were civilians. We didn't have any active-duty personnel there.
2 We were not very well versed in this work, so I did not carry out an
3 investigation. I compiled a report, and that was the end of that.
4 If the superior command was supposed to do something, then they
5 would have informed me.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Did you alert anybody who was -- or, yes, was in
7 the position to carry out an investigation?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, could you please repeat
9 that question.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Did you bring this fact to the attention of those
11 who are responsible for investigation of possible or alleged crimes?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My superior was aware of that, that
13 is to say, the commander of the battalion, and the commander of the
14 brigade. Also my superior. They were aware of this. And I don't know
15 what happened beyond that.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: You say you were a civilian. Were you not a
18 soldier in a battalion? Together with all the other people that you
19 were --
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no. I mean, I wasn't
21 military personnel before the war. That's what I was trying to say. I
22 was trying to say that before the war, I was a civilian. So I was not
23 very well versed in many military matters.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thanks for the clarification. Thanks for the
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: At the time of this event, you have been a
2 lieutenant; correct?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
4 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution --
5 JUDGE ORIE: I think you tendered it.
6 MR. WEBER: Yes.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, number would be?
8 THE REGISTRAR: Document 30686 receives number P6542,
9 Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
11 MR. WEBER: I just have a couple of housekeeping items. One, I
12 apologise, I just misspoke. With respect to Exhibit P66, the reference
13 is in paragraph 63, not paragraph 17, on e-court page 17 to the
14 Kula video that was just shown.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 MR. WEBER: And then based on the review of the record, the
17 Prosecution no longer feels it is necessary to seek the admission of
18 P6539, marked for identification. We withdraw the tendering of that
20 JUDGE ORIE: And that was the --
21 MR. WEBER: The statement of Mr. Hrvacevic.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's -- then hereby the number would be
24 Any further questions, Mr. Weber?
25 MR. WEBER: No, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Before we take a break, Witness, I think you earlier
2 commented on your handwritten notes and you said something like:
3 "If we come to that item, I'll further explain to you."
4 Do you remember that you told us that?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Has any of the questions touched upon the issue you
7 were referring to? I think it was about an order.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That first paragraph on the page?
9 Is that it?
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's it.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Didn't come across that.
12 Didn't get to that.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us what it was now because I'm
14 interested. I think you said something about "my order" even. You used
15 that -- what order was that?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I got an order from the
17 superior command, and then I forwarded it to the companies. I mean, I
18 don't know. I cannot remember. But if that would come up, if that
19 document would come up, I would remember, so I cannot remember the
20 details. If we come across that document, then I'm going to tell you,
22 JUDGE ORIE: Now, if it was important enough for the witness to
23 prepare for a response, if any of the parties would have any idea about
24 what that order may have been, we'd like to hear that. So if there's any
25 order which would fit into this prepared comment.
1 Then we take the break now.
2 Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.
3 We'd like to see you back in 20 minutes.
4 [The witness stands down]
5 JUDGE ORIE: We take a break, and we resume at quarter to 2.00.
6 --- Recess taken at 1.23 p.m.
7 --- On resuming at 1.47 p.m.
8 JUDGE ORIE: We are waiting for the witness to be escorted into
9 the courtroom.
10 [The witness takes the stand]
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.
12 Re-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
13 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, just a few questions.
14 While you were carrying out the duties of company commander, did
15 you have specific orders from the superior command that the mistreatment
16 of the civilian unarmed population is prohibited?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. While you were company commander, did you have specific orders
19 from your superior command that had to do with prisoners of war and
20 obligations to treat these prisoners of war in accordance with the
21 Geneva Conventions?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. As company commander, did you abide by these obligations of
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. When you took over as assistant battalion commander for
2 intelligence and security, did you also have orders from the superior
3 command on the prohibition of any mistreatment of the civilian population
4 and the duty to act in accordance with the Geneva Conventions vis-ā-vis
5 prisoners of war?
6 A. Yes.
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please
8 have document P458 in e-court, and I would also like that ask that we
9 take a look at the last page of this document.
10 JUDGE ORIE: We're waiting for the document --
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] P458.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps one question until the document appears.
13 Did those same orders, did they also apply to civilian prisoners;
14 that is, treatment of civilian prisoners?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 Your Honour, I would just like to ask that in the English
19 version, we go one page back because the part that I wish to indicate
20 starts a bit before this, so that would be on page 5 in the English
21 version. Thank you.
22 Q. Mr. Witness, this has to do with instructions for further
23 activities of the command of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps dated the
24 7th of June, 1992, as you could see, in the letterhead. And there is the
25 signature of Tomislav Sipcic, corps commander, and it says:
1 "I most strictly prohibit the mistreatment of civilian unarmed
2 population and prisoners should be treated in the spirit of the
3 Geneva Conventions."
4 Do you see that? That is number 6, paragraph 6.
5 A. Yes, I see that.
6 Q. This order, as formulated, the one that you see before you, is
7 that the order that you received from your superior command?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you. Now I would like to ask you just a few things with
10 regard to this fact, that prisoners who were at the Kula KP Dom were at
11 the front line at one point in time and were digging trenches there.
12 Tell us this: Do you know anything about whether these persons
13 were civilians or prisoners of war?
14 A. No.
15 Q. The mentioned persons, according to the information that you had,
16 did they flee in the direction of the position of the Army of BH or in
17 depth in terms of the territory that was controlled by the Army of
18 Republika Srpska?
19 A. Towards the enemy positions. Towards the positions of the
20 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
21 Q. The fact that people were brought there to work during the night,
22 as was stated here, and in response to the question put by His Honour
23 Judge Fluegge, you said the time chosen by the person who escorted them,
24 was this time chosen by that person or somebody else for the sake of
25 their own personal safety?
1 A. On orders from the battalion commander, this work was carried out
2 at night in order to save their lives.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
4 MR. WEBER: I have been letting it go, but on that one I'm going
5 to object. Leading.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it certainly is leading. And apart from that,
7 it is a composite question as well. But very, very, very leading,
8 Mr. Stojanovic.
9 Please proceed.
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I will
11 try to make it simpler.
12 Q. So this is what my question is going to be. In two steps, sir,
13 who was the person within the system of command and control who would be
14 in charge of determining when these prisoners are supposed to work on
16 A. Who is supposed to set the time for them to work? Is that what
17 you mean?
18 Q. That's right.
19 A. It can be the battalion commander, the commander of the company
20 in whose territory this work is being carried out, so they decided to
21 have this work carried out at night in order to protect these people,
22 because if this work would take place during the day they would be
23 exposed. But they were a bit shielded, at least, because this work was
24 being carried out at night.
25 Q. Did you have the opportunity to see whether on the other front
1 line, on the other side, the side that was under the control of the
2 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, whether civilians were being used for similar
3 fortification work?
4 A. I did not have --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
6 MR. WEBER: Objection. Outside the scope of cross-examination.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic.
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I don't think so, Your Honour.
9 This is in the context of the document that I did not mind having
10 admitted into evidence in this case.
11 JUDGE ORIE: I disagree. The -- you may put your next question
12 to the witness, Mr. Stojanovic.
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Sir, I'm going to conclude with yet another question that has to
15 do with information about looting in the area of Grbavica.
16 Could you tell the Court how many units held this area that is
17 called Grbavica?
18 A. There were a few units, that is to say, our 2nd Infantry
19 Battalion, then the 1st Battalion, then the armoured battalion, and so
21 Q. Would you tell the Court, in relation to the front line that you
22 held during the war years, how far behind that -- behind your back is
23 that, this area that is called Grbavica? Tell us in terms of kilometres.
24 A. Well, this is an area, it's a joint area of Grbavica and Vrace.
25 It was a couple of kilometres in depth.
1 Q. Thank you, sir. I have no further questions for you.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.
3 No further questions, Mr. Weber.
4 MR. WEBER: That's correct, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Moloto has one or more questions for you.
6 Questioned by the Court:
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just one little issue. Let me just get the
8 correct page.
9 Now, in re-examination, at page 67, starting from line 7, you
10 were asked whether you did have specific orders from your superior
11 command that had to do with prisoners of war and obligations to treat
12 these prisoners of war in accordance with the Geneva Conventions.
13 You said yes.
14 You were asked again: "As a company commander, did you abide by
15 these obligations of yours?"
16 You said yes.
17 My question to you is: How did you comply with these
19 A. While I commanded the company, we did not rely on civilians to
20 carry out fortifications and dig out trenches. That would be one
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: You -- you have agreed that these obligations
23 applied both to civilians and to prisoners of war. You have written a
24 report that we saw a few minutes ago to the KP Dom from where you said
25 the people were fetched from. I do not think that the KP Dom is the
1 place where they tried to comply with -- or that they're bound to comply
2 with Geneva Conventions.
3 My question to you is: As you wrote that report, what did you do
4 to comply with the obligations under the Geneva Conventions? Because you
5 were aware of this ill-treatment. And let me just add: To the KP Dom,
6 you are reporting the escape.
7 What about the ill-treatment of these students -- these
9 A. I didn't ask for such prisoners to be provided. I simply drafted
10 the report.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's not my question.
12 My question is: How did you comply with the Geneva Conventions
13 with respect to the fact that these people that you were reporting to the
14 KP Dom about were being used for forced labour in a dangerous area?
15 A. I didn't order that.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's not my question.
17 A. The order was issued by the battalion commander, and it was so
18 implemented. I merely reported on what had happened.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sir, I'm not asking you about an order. I'm
20 asking you about action that you took to comply with the
21 Geneva Conventions. What did you do? How did you comply with the
22 Geneva Conventions with respect to these people that you reported to the
23 KP Dom as having escaped?
24 If you don't -- if you don't -- if you didn't do anything, just
25 say you didn't do anything.
1 A. I didn't do anything.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. I have no further questions.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Could I, before -- I would have, most likely, one
4 more question. But I need the report of which I'm unaware of the exact
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please. Could I have 6542 on the
8 screen, please.
9 Yes, it is on the screen. If you give me one second.
10 I was a bit confused, but I don't find an answer in the document.
11 You earlier said that these were civilian prisoners, and later, when
12 asked whether these were civilians by Mr. Stojanovic, you said you didn't
13 know. I'm a bit confused by that.
14 Could you explain that?
15 A. Perhaps I didn't find the best way to express it. I don't know.
16 JUDGE ORIE: When not? When you ... when you were telling that
17 you didn't know whether they were civilians, or when you said that they
18 were civilians? I'm talking about the prisoners.
19 A. When I said that they were civilians.
20 JUDGE ORIE: And you do not know.
21 A. Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: People in the civilian prison, would you -- what
23 makes you think that they would be prisoners of war? If they're not
24 civilian prisoners.
25 A. I really don't know.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Isn't it true that the responsibility for prisoners
2 of war is with the army and not with civilian authorities?
3 A. Yes. But maybe they happened to be in that prison. I am not
4 familiar with such details.
5 JUDGE ORIE: And do you then report to the prison authorities
6 about their fate rather than to yourself, because if they are prisoners
7 of war, you would have to report to someone else, isn't it? To the
8 military authorities.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 A. This report was -- was sent to the administration of the KP Dom
11 Kula as well as to my superiors.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. We'll leave it to that.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE ORIE: I have no further questions.
15 Have the questions by the Bench triggered any need for further
16 questions. If --
17 MR. WEBER: No, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just for me to note that on the face of this
19 report, there's no sign that it was addressed to anybody within the
20 military hierarchy. We see that it was sent to the administration of the
21 Kula KP.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you testified, if I remember well, that it
23 was probably sent to the -- your superiors, your military superiors as
24 well, although we do not -- have not seen any documents about that.
25 That's -- that reflects the situation.
1 Can you confirm that?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I suppose I sent the same
3 kind of Official Note to my superior command, which is the brigade
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. This, then, concludes your testimony. I'd
6 like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague --
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE ORIE: If there's -- one second, please.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like to thank you very much for coming to
11 The Hague. And I hope and expect, as a matter of fact, that you'll
12 receive the original of your handwritten notes from the Prosecution.
13 They can be delivered to the witness, I take it.
14 Could the usher assist.
15 It's your property, so you can take it.
16 Again, thank you for coming. Thank you for having answered all
17 the questions that were put to you, and I wish you a safe return home
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you as well.
20 JUDGE ORIE: You may follow the usher.
21 [The witness withdrew]
22 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber asked for the next witness to remain
23 stand by. Now, I wonder whether it's a very good idea to bring him in
24 for five minutes, but ...
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber decides that, although we have only five
2 minutes left, that it would, nevertheless, be good to already have the
3 witness in.
4 Could the next witness be escorted into the courtroom.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, we might just briefly go through the
7 formalities in the 92 ter statement.
8 I noticed that with the last witness you didn't ask him to -- for
9 his name and his date of birth. Now you referred to the cover page of
10 the statement where it was all found, so I considered it to be included.
11 But usually the identity of the witness is explicitly established.
12 [The witness entered court]
13 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon. Before you give evidence,
14 Witness --
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
16 JUDGE ORIE: the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require that you
17 make a solemn declaration. The text is now handed out to you. May I
18 invite you to make that solemn declaration.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
20 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
21 WITNESS: MILORAD DZIDA
22 [Witness answered through interpreter]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. You -- please be seated.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 JUDGE ORIE: We expected, as a matter of fact, that we would call
1 you a bit earlier, so you'll stay with us only for a couple of minutes
2 today and then we'll resume tomorrow morning. And our apologies for you
3 having to wait for such a long time.
4 You'll now first be briefly examined by Mr. Stojanovic. You'll
5 find Mr. Stojanovic to your left. Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for
6 Mr. Mladic.
7 Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.
8 Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
9 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir.
10 A. Good afternoon.
11 Q. Could you kindly tell us your first and last name for the record.
12 A. Milorad Dzida.
13 Q. Thank you. Please tell the Chamber whether you provided a
14 statement to General Mladic's Defence at some point in written form.
15 A. Yes.
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can we please look
17 at 1D01603 in e-court, page 1.
18 Q. Mr. Dzida, we see here the statement of one Milorad Dzida born on
19 18 September 1954, and the document is signed. Are these details correct
20 and is that your signature?
21 A. Yes, the details are correct.
22 Q. Can we see your signature on this page?
23 A. Yes. It is my personal signature.
24 Q. Thank you. Let us look at the last page of the document next.
25 Please tell the Chamber whether, on this page, at the end of your
1 written statement, there is your signature and the date of the 10th of
2 May, 2014.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Mr. Dzida, if I were to put the same questions to you today as
5 specified in your statement, with the additions - that is to say,
6 corrections you made, which we are about to show to the Chamber - would
7 you, under oath, confirm it as such, as being truthful?
8 A. Yes.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, by your leave, can
10 we look at 65 ter 1D02793. I tried to follow the same way in order to
11 present some changes that the witness wanted to make before his
12 testifying here today, and I wanted to share it with you.
13 Q. In paragraph 1 of your statement, Mr. Dzida, you felt the need to
14 tell me that there was something that needed to be added. In other
15 words, the letter P was supposed to be added to the SRO acronym, and it
16 would stand for school of infantry reserve officers; correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: If the witness signed this supplement statement and
19 if he has reviewed it, then, for the Chamber, there's no need to go
20 through all the changes unless there is a specific reason, and you have a
21 opportunity to do that then tomorrow.
22 Witness, did you sign this document? I don't see the --
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, you complete the [overlapping
25 speakers] ...
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] [Overlapping speakers] ... thank
2 you for being practical, Your Honour. I would also kindly ask that the
3 statement by this witness, with the additions made to it, be entered into
5 [Prosecution counsel confer]
6 MR. WEBER: No objections, Your Honour, with the understanding
7 that the earlier question that if he would ask the same questions with
8 the corrections, I understood that to apply to this too.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That was a question which also related to the
10 changes made.
11 Madam Registrar.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D1603 receives number D489.
13 And document 1D2793 receives number D490, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: D489 and D490 are admitted into evidence.
15 Mr. Dzida, tomorrow there will certainly be more questions for
16 you. We'll adjourn for the day --
17 I have one question. Did you -- did you have conversations with
18 other witnesses which you met here after you arrived?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. But we did not discuss the
20 case or testimonies. We discussed private matters.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, I'd like to instruct you that you should
22 not speak with anyone, or communicate with anyone, about your testimony,
23 whether that is testimony already given, which is not much until now,
24 although the whole of your statement is now in evidence, so that's quite
25 a bit, and also not about testimony you are still about to give tomorrow.
1 So you are restricted in your communications with others in that respect,
2 and you should abide about that.
3 Having given you this instruction, you may follow the usher, and
4 we'd like to see you back tomorrow morning at 9.30 in this same
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.
7 [The witness stands down]
8 JUDGE ORIE: We adjourn for the day, and we'll resume tomorrow,
9 Friday, the 30th of May, 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, I.
10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.21 p.m.,
11 to be reconvened on Friday, the 30th day of May,
12 2014, at 9.30 a.m.