Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 21848

 1                           Friday, 30 May 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is the case

 9     number IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

12             While we are waiting for him, could I briefly deal with the

13     following matter:  The Prosecution requested - and I'm talking about

14     Exhibit D471 - that the Defence provide them with information concerning

15     the provenance of that document which was MFI'd.  The Chamber would like

16     to know whether the Prosecution has received the necessary information,

17     and if so, whether in light of that information it has any objections to

18     the admission of D471.

19             MR. GROOME:  Good morning, Your Honours.  No, we have not.  But

20     I'll address that with Mr. Lukic during the first break.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll hear from you.

22                           [The witness takes the stand]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Dzida.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Please be seated.


Page 21849

 1                           WITNESS:  MILORAD DZIDA [Resumed]

 2                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Dzida, I would like to remind you that you are

 4     still bound by the solemn declaration you have given yesterday at the

 5     beginning of your testimony, that you'll speak the truth, the whole

 6     truth, and nothing but the truth.

 7             Mr. Stojanovic will now continue his examination.

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, following up on

 9     yesterday's questioning of the witness, I propose that after you decided

10     to admit his statement that you also admit document 65 ter 09142 as an

11     attachment to the statement.

12             MR. WEBER:  No objection.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Weber.

14             One second, please.  The Chamber just will verify what exactly it

15     is.  It is an associated exhibit and it is -- let me have a look.  It's

16     the document of the 4th Corps Command, strictly confidential.  Yes, no

17     objections.

18             Madam Registrar, the number would be?

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 9142 receives number D491, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  D491 is admitted.

21             You may proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will read a brief summary of

23     the evidence of Witness Milorad Dzida, and I will ask him a few short

24     questions later.

25             Witness Milorad Dzida was a company commander in the


Page 21850

 1     215th Mountain Brigade of the 4th Corps of the JNA at the outbreak of the

 2     war.  From the 9th of August, 1993, after he had been wounded several

 3     times, he was reassigned to the 7th Battalion of the 1st Romanija Brigade

 4     to the duty of the deputy commander for intelligence at which position he

 5     remained until the 17th of October, 1994.  He then took over the duty of

 6     the battalion commander at Nisici where he remained until the end of the

 7     war.

 8             The witness talks about the duties which he received from the

 9     command of the 7th Battalion on the 6th of February, 1994, after the

10     incident at the Markale market.  He says that, as an intelligence

11     officer, he took a team comprising the representatives of the Main Staff

12     of the VRS, the SRK, the UNPROFOR, and his brigade to the firing position

13     of the 120-millimetre mortar.  He had the occasion to hear the words of

14     the interpreter, who was a member of the UNPROFOR team, that it was not

15     possible that on the previous day it was fired from these weapons.

16     Warrant Officer Jakovljevic, who was a member of the team, drew up

17     reports about this incident for the needs of the SRK on behalf of the

18     brigade.

19             Witness Dzida further testifies that several days later, a group

20     of UNPROFOR officers carried out inspection once again together with a

21     female interpreter.  When the officers inquired, she interpreted the

22     words of the French major who said that the 7th Battalion had nothing to

23     do with the incident at Markale.

24             Further, the witness points out that they had strict orders to

25     observe any cease-fire or truce and that the fire of his battalion was


Page 21851

 1     always aimed at firing positions of the enemy and never at civilians or

 2     civilian facilities.  The civilians in the city could only be hit if

 3     military targets were targeted and if such targets were located close to

 4     civilian facilities.

 5             He also testifies about the way that the opposing side waged war,

 6     pointing out that the forces of the 1st Corps of the Army of

 7     Bosnia-Herzegovina were far superior with regards to manpower, mentioning

 8     as an example that facing his battalion was the 110th Brigade of the

 9     1st Corps of the Army of the BiH.

10                           Examination by Mr. Stojanovic: [Continued]

11        Q.   [Interpretation] In the statement, which you accepted as true and

12     correct yesterday and today, you talk about having had the occasion to

13     learn about the fact that members of paramilitary formations, who were

14     ethnic Muslims, were being armed.  Could you tell me, where did you

15     receive such information and were you personally familiar with such

16     events?

17        A.   I had a couple of --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.

19             Mr. Weber.

20             MR. WEBER:  If you don't mind, since there is two bases of

21     knowledge in that question, if he could please separate them.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, could you please split up your

23     question.

24             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

25        Q.   The first question which I would like to ask you is whether you


Page 21852

 1     had personal and direct information about these events.

 2        A.   I had personal and direct information about these events in the

 3     building where I lived.  In December, bars were placed in the common

 4     basements in the building and the residents could no longer enter this

 5     area.  You had to address two people if you wanted to take what -- the

 6     food that you had prepared for the winter.  So on the 6th of January I

 7     could see for myself because I had a conflict with the president of the

 8     residents union.

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please be asked to slow down.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could you please slow down when you speak

11     because your speed of speech is such that the interpreters cannot follow

12     you.

13             You said you had a conflict with the president of the residents

14     union.  Please proceed and finish your answer.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I meant the tenants council, yes.

16     Because I -- I could not leave in the basement my winter preserves.

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Can you tell the Court what you found in the basement?

19        A.   Yes, they placed weapons there during the night and there were

20     bars on the door so nobody could enter.  When I went to the police

21     station to report this, we never received any response from them.  After

22     me, a neighbour also reported this, and five or six days later we had

23     still not received any answer.  I know, I heard from Radomir Neskovic who

24     was detained there, he had remained in my apartment, I heard from him

25     that weapons were being kept down there.


Page 21853

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  You said that this all happened in December.

 2     December of what year, Mr. Dzida?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] December 1991, late December 1991.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

 5             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Would you please tell the Court if you learned indirectly

 7     anything about where the paramilitary formations that you talked about,

 8     the Patriotic League and the Green Berets, were being trained for the

 9     forthcoming war events?

10        A.   Well, the training was conducted in an area in Trebevic.  The

11     place is called Dobro Vode, and then the Unica hotel at Igman, also the

12     Mraziste and Igman hotels.  My colleague, Mustafa Gegaj, spent quite a

13     long time at training in Igman, and during the war he worked as deputy

14     commander in charge of intelligence in the Hrasnica Brigade.  There were

15     several colleagues who spent 15 to 20 days at the training sessions.

16        Q.   Where do you have this information from?

17        A.   I learned this because Mustafa was absent from work for two and a

18     half months, and then later, there was also a man who used to work in the

19     MUP and remained in Hrasnica.  He published a book and the book includes

20     Gegaj's picture.  It's called "Hrasnicka Golgota" or

21     "The Hrasnica Passion."

22        Q.   I will now ask you about the period in 1994 when you performed

23     the duty as the deputy commander of the 7th Battalion for intelligence.

24     As a unit, was your zone of defence attacked by the Army of BiH?

25        A.   Yes, on several occasions.  I remember the two most tragic


Page 21854

 1     attacks that they launched.  One was on the 27th of May, 1994.  That was

 2     when six of our men got killed at Zecija Glava and we had seven or eight

 3     wounded.  Of the six men, four had been hit in the eye, in the head, that

 4     is to say.  I even remember some of their names, if you would like to

 5     hear that.

 6             The other attack that they launched took place on the

 7     18th of September, 1994.  They then launched an attack along the entire

 8     line and the thrust was against two companies, the 4th and the

 9     1st Companies, that is.  And in both companies, around seven men got

10     killed.  And we also had some losses at Spicaste Stijene.

11        Q.   You have mentioned the Spicaste Stijene location.  While you were

12     performing the duty in the 7th Battalion, were any other attacks launched

13     at the Spicaste Stijene positions by the ABiH?

14        A.   Most attacks were directed at the Spicaste Stijene location.

15     There is a cave there and across from the cave and -- there is also a

16     wooded area, so these parts are somewhat forward and they were the

17     targets of attack.  We couldn't carry out reconnaissance properly --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.

19             Mr. Weber.

20             MR. WEBER:  Maybe I'm missing it, but if Mr. Stojanovic could

21     assist me where he discusses Spicaste Stijene.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  In the statement, you mean.

23             MR. WEBER:  Yes.  If I'm missing -- if I'm missing it, I'm sorry.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, Spicaste Stijene, where does it

25     appear in the statement?  Or in the 65 ter summary, I take it.


Page 21855

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it's paragraph 24

 2     of his statement, only now it's been expanded in this answer.  It's been

 3     expanded with this place name, but he does discuss the area.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  You mean that the casualties described in May 1994,

 5     that is the events, and it very much looks like it, on the 27th of May,

 6     and that apart from that, locations mentioned which are not far away from

 7     Spicaste Stijene.

 8             MR. WEBER:  Thank you.  Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  The link is clear now.  Please proceed.

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

11     Your Honour.  I will finish by this.  Let me just ask one more question.

12        Q.   As for the place names that you talked, Zecija Glava, Faletici,

13     where was the area that you called Spicaste Stijene located?

14        A.   Across from Vasin Han, it's 8 to 9 kilometres from

15     Spicaste Stijene across the defence area covered by my battalion.

16        Q.   Was your battalion specifically in charge of the Spicaste Stijene

17     area?

18        A.   Yes, it was, the 1st Company.

19        Q.   Thank you for your answers, Mr. Dzida.  I have no more questions

20     for you.

21        A.   You're welcome.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.  Before we give an

23     opportunity to start the cross-examination of the witness.

24             Mr. Dzida, could you tell us how often approximately, as far as

25     you know, did the ABiH forces try to take control over Spicaste Stijene?


Page 21856

 1     So I'm not talking about exchange of fire but I'm talking about an

 2     attempt to take control.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have understood.  They tried to

 4     do that on several occasions.  They even managed twice to take away parts

 5     of Spicaste Stijene from us and then we managed to recapture them.  Later

 6     on we placed a wire fence that could stop their rockets.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm mainly interested in how many times.  You said

 8     they succeeded twice and you then regained it.  Apart from these

 9     successful attempts, how many attempts were there which then likely were

10     unsuccessful?  Was it three, was it ten, was it 20?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were many a number, but I

12     can't remember the exact number.  Quite a few attacks against

13     Spicaste Stijene.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Some people would consider 20 quite a number, others

15     would consider five quite a number, others would consider -- could you

16     approximate, even if you don't know the exact number?  Was it closer to

17     five than it was to ten or closer to twenty or -- if you remember.  If

18     you say:  I can't answer the question --

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Whenever they attempted to launch

20     an attack against the zone of responsibility of the 7th Battalion, it was

21     always via Spicaste Stijene.  At least 15 times, if not more.  But I'm

22     certain it wasn't fewer than that.  And these were quite violent attacks.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

24             Mr. Weber, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?

25             MR. WEBER:  Yes, Your Honour.


Page 21857

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Dzida, you'll now be cross-examined by

 2     Mr. Weber.  You find Mr. Weber to your right.  Mr. Weber is counsel for

 3     the Prosecution.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 6                           Cross-examination by Mr. Weber:

 7        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Dzida.

 8        A.   Good morning, sir.

 9        Q.   In paragraph 4 of your statement you indicate that you were

10     wounded on two occasions.  With respect to your first wounding, on the

11     4th of May, 1992, how long were you away from your duties with this

12     injury?

13             MR. WEBER:  Judge, I --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Dzida, what -- do you have anything in front of

15     you?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is all typed and signed.

17     Typed text.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but you are -- Mr. Weber, I can imagine that if

19     you refer to a certain paragraph of the statement, then the witness may

20     want to read the statement because you refer to it.

21             But would you -- is that your statement, Mr. Dzida, which you

22     have in front of you?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, any notes on it or is it just the typewritten

25     text?


Page 21858

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There are some minor corrections

 2     where there were typos, but I won't be using it because I'm quite

 3     familiar with what it contains more or less.

 4             On the 3rd of May --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.  Please put them away and don't consult

 6     them unless you have asked permission for that.

 7             Mr. Weber, whenever you refer to a paragraph, make sure that the

 8     witness understands exactly what you're talking about.

 9             MR. WEBER:  Of course.  And, Your Honours, I'm mainly referring

10     to the paragraph for the record's sake.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

12             MR. WEBER:  I can ask the question without the reference to the

13     paragraph, just because it's pretty simple information.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Perhaps you could first put your question and

15     then say for the Court the paragraphs also.

16             MR. WEBER:  Of course, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  That's clear.

18             MR. WEBER:  Yes.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

20             MR. WEBER:

21        Q.   Sir, I'd like to ask you about your first wounding on the

22     4th of May, 1992.  How long were you away from your duties with this

23     injury?

24        A.   On the 3rd of May, 1994, my unit received a task to go to the

25     Jewish cemetery sector in order to secure the withdrawal from the


Page 21859

 1     Marshal Tito barracks.  It was the 4th Corps of the JNA --

 2        Q.   Sir -- sorry to cut you off, sir, but if you could please listen

 3     to my question.

 4             It appears in your statement that you were injured on the

 5     4th of May, 1992.  I'm just simply asking you how long you were out with

 6     that injury.  We can see the information that you're providing is part of

 7     your statement already.  There is no need to repeat that.  If you could

 8     just tell me how long were you out with that injury.

 9        A.   I was wounded on the 4th of May, 1992.  I returned to the unit on

10     crutches after the medical treatment.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  When was that?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 4th of May in 1992 at

13     quarter to 6.00 a.m.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Now just to be sure:  You were wounded on that day

15     and you returned on that same day, with crutches, to your unit?  Is that

16     how I have to understand your testimony?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the same day, after four or

18     five hours of receiving treatment at the hospital, I returned to my unit

19     because I knew -- I had a doctor in my unit.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Let's try to be as efficient as possible, and

21     we are under time restraints, Mr. Dzida.  The shortest and accurate

22     answer would have been:  I was away only for a couple of hours.  That's

23     what Mr. Weber wanted to know, how long were you away.  And whether there

24     were a doctor or no doctor or whether it was on crutches or not, a couple

25     of hours is apparently your answer to the question.


Page 21860

 1             Please proceed.

 2             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.  But I'm a soldier,

 4     not a lawyer.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Just listen to the questions carefully and try to

 6     answer them.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MR. WEBER:

 9        Q.   Were you able to immediately return to active duty?

10        A.   Immediately.  I returned to duty immediately.

11        Q.   In your statement you also discuss a second occasion where you

12     were wounded on the 6th of May, 1993.  Where were you when you sustained

13     these injuries?

14        A.   I was in the defence sector at Vihari, Vihari Kijet [phoen], near

15     Podgreb.

16        Q.   You indicate on the second occasion that you received a total of

17     21 wounds.  How long were you away from active duty on the second

18     occasion?

19        A.   Over one month.

20        Q.   Mr. Dzida, today I'm going to start by discussing the activities

21     of the 216th JNA Brigade before it was renamed the 1st Romanija

22     Infantry Brigade.  I'd just like to clarify initially a few things with

23     you.  Is it correct that you were first mobilised into the 216th Brigade

24     between 30 June 1991 and 16 August 1991?

25        A.   Mobilisation started on the 30th of June, 1991, and on the


Page 21861

 1     16th of August, 1992, we returned the equipment.  So that was the first

 2     mobilisation.

 3        Q.   All right.  Then you were mobilised on a second occasion on

 4     17 September 1991; is that correct?

 5        A.   Correct, the 17th of September, 1991, the second mobilisation was

 6     carried out; that is to say, the additional mobilisation.

 7             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit D491 for

 8     the witness.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  While we are waiting for it, Mr. Weber, I've got no

10     idea where Vihari Kijet may be.  If you could either clarify together

11     with the Defence --

12             MR. WEBER:  Very well.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  -- so that the answer serves its purpose.

14             MR. WEBER:

15        Q.   Sir, this is a 4th Corps analysis dated 21 August 1991 that you

16     discuss in a paragraph of your statement.  Do you recognise this

17     document?

18        A.   I think I do.

19        Q.   Is it correct that you also commented upon this document in your

20     statement for the Karadzic case?

21        A.   Yes.

22             MR. WEBER:  Could I please have page 4 in both versions.  And for

23     the witness, I'm going to be focusing on information that's at the very

24     top of the original.  And for Your Honours, it's information in the

25     centre of the page in the translation.


Page 21862

 1        Q.   Sir, in your Mladic statement in paragraph 12, you discuss this

 2     report and it's similar to your discussion in the Karadzic statement.

 3     However, I'm going to read you an additional sentence which appeared in

 4     your Karadzic statement.  I'm just simply asking you if you could confirm

 5     this.

 6             In your Karadzic statement, you added with respect to this

 7     document:

 8             "Response was very poor, which is confirmed in the

 9     above-mentioned document on page 4.  The first paragraph that was shown

10     to me which says that 1.218 soldiers did not respond to mobilisation.

11     They were Muslim reservists."

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Are you referring to paragraph 12 in the Mladic

13     statement?

14             MR. WEBER:  It is -- I'm referring to the -- my apologies for the

15     confusion, thank you.  I'm referring to paragraph 10.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

17             MR. WEBER:  And I confused it with the Karadzic paragraph number.

18     My apologies for the confusion.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

20             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Paragraph 10 of?

22             MR. WEBER:  The Mladic statement.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  And then you pointed at the differences with the

24     Karadzic statement.

25             MR. WEBER:  Correct.  I apologise for the confusion.


Page 21863

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please proceed.

 2             MR. WEBER:

 3        Q.   Sir, do you need me to repeat your statement from the Karadzic

 4     statement?

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm sorry, I'm still lost.

 6             MR. WEBER:  Okay.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm still lost.  I don't see the words "the

 8     response was poor" in paragraph 10.  I see it in paragraph 12 and that's

 9     where it ends.

10             MR. WEBER:  That's correct.  Sorry for the confusion.  In the

11     Mladic statement, he comments on the document on one occasion in

12     paragraph 10.  In the Karadzic statement, he commented on the document in

13     two separate paragraphs.  The now paragraph 12 of the Mladic statement

14     had an additional comment that -- in the Karadzic statement that also

15     made reference to this document which is now visible in the current

16     paragraph 12 of the Mladic statement.  I apologise for that confusion.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  However, all what you have read out I don't see in

18     paragraph 10.

19             MR. WEBER:  Correct.  I -- it was my confusion.  Paragraph 12 of

20     the Mladic statement -- all right.  Let's just go through it.  In

21     paragraph 10 of the Mladic statement, there is reference to this

22     document.  In paragraph 12 of the Mladic statement --

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  This is 0914 --

24             MR. WEBER:  Correct.  In paragraph 12 of the Mladic statement, he

25     discusses how the response was poor.  Formerly in the Karadzic statement,


Page 21864

 1     that -- the paragraph that is now paragraph 12 of the Mladic statement

 2     made a second reference to the same document which is why I'm trying to

 3     get the witness to confirm now.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Go ahead.

 5             MR. WEBER:  Okay.

 6        Q.   Sir, with respect to this document in the Karadzic case, you

 7     stated:

 8             "Response was very poor, which is confirmed in the

 9     above-mentioned document on page 4.  The first paragraph that was shown

10     to me which says that 1.218 soldiers did not respond to mobilisation.

11     They were Muslim reservists."

12             Do you stand by this statement on this document?

13        A.   This goes for the entire brigade.  This number of people did not

14     respond, that's certain.  These officers, NCOs, military conscripts,

15     motor vehicles, and cattle.  I don't see the number of people who did

16     respond.  I don't see that here at all.

17        Q.   Okay.

18             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution --

19        Q.   So, sir, you confirm your previous statement that the -- in this

20     document, the 1.218 soldiers that did not respond were Muslim reservists;

21     is that correct?

22        A.   I did not confirm that they were reservists.  Most of those who

23     did not respond were Muslims, because some Muslims did respond to the

24     call up for our unit.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Witness, Witness, the question to you was:  Are


Page 21865

 1     the 1.218, all of them, are they all Muslims?  That's the question.  Not

 2     whether other Muslims did respond.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, approximately that would be

 4     the number.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's the ethnicity that we are asking for.  The

 6     number is 1.218.  Were they all Muslims?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that time when we compiled that

 8     report, we didn't say whether it was just Muslims or whether there were

 9     some Serbs among them.  At any rate, that's the number of people who did

10     not respond.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  And the question now to you is whether those 1.218

12     were Muslims?  If you know.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've told you that most of them

14     were Muslims.  As far as I can remember my previous answer to

15     President Karadzic, it was the same, the same answer.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And "most of them," that means 95, 98 per cent

17     of the number mentioned here?  Close to that?  Almost --

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Approximately that much.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  So almost all of them.

20             Please proceed.

21             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honours.

22             Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 30704.

23        Q.   Mr. Dzida, coming up before you will be a document dated

24     5 January 1995.  It is a recommendation for decoration of the

25     1st Romanija Infantry Brigade from SRK commander Dragomir Milosevic.  In


Page 21866

 1     this recommendation, General Milosevic discusses the experiences of the

 2     brigade from the 30th of June 1991 onward.  I'm going to go through it

 3     with you part by part here.  And if, sir, you could please listen to my

 4     questions, I'm just going to go step by step.

 5             In the first few sentences, he refers to operations in the

 6     Banja Luka sector between 1 July and 15 August 1991 which successfully

 7     secured the Mahovljani airport.  Did you participate in these operations?

 8        A.   It is correct that I participated but it wasn't an operation.  We

 9     came there for training and by the way we also secured the airport.

10        Q.   In the middle of the first paragraph, General Milosevic discusses

11     a series of tasks that were completed by the brigade between August 1991

12     and March 1992.  He states:

13             "In addition to its engagement in combat operations, the brigade

14     also organised training of Serbs in crucial specialist areas ..."

15             And he names some of these areas.  Starting with the first one,

16     is it correct that members of the 216th Brigade received specialist

17     training in areas such as sniping?

18        A.   That is not correct.

19        Q.   Okay.  Do you say that because you did not receive that training?

20        A.   My unit -- as far as my unit is concerned, I don't think that

21     anybody underwent such training.

22        Q.   Is it correct that you cannot exclude the possibility that others

23     in the brigade received such training?

24        A.   I claim that others didn't go either.  That's for sure.  Because

25     according to establishment, in a platoon there are three snipers, and


Page 21867

 1     these are ordinary M-76 snipers with ordinary optical sights.  So

 2     according to establishment, these snipers did exist but nobody went for

 3     this kind of training, and I claim that with full responsibility.

 4             And also I'm going to ask you to make the Serbian letters more

 5     visible because I don't have the right glasses.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  If portions of anything should be enlarged, please

 7     ask for it.  If there is a specific portion you can't read, although the

 8     text, of course, can be read to you as well.

 9             And do I understand that you are telling us that --

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, all right, if you were to

11     enlarge it when you're putting a question to me, I mean the Serbian

12     part --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not used to being interrupted.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do apologise.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  This document which is authored by

16     Dragomir Milosevic, Major-General Dragomir Milosevic, says that organised

17     training of Serbs in crucial specialist areas was performed.  Do I

18     understand that you say that this is a false report by

19     Dragomir Milosevic?  Because you deny that it's true, what is written in

20     this report.  So you say it's a false report or?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's not what I said.  But units

22     that responded to call-up had training every day.  And it was tactical

23     training and combat rules and so on, so I mean this is training,

24     practical training, in the JNA.  When people are called up, they should

25     do something so they wouldn't just be sitting around.  As for this kind


Page 21868

 1     of specific thing, no.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  The report says that there was specialist training

 3     within this brigade for snipers.  You're saying this didn't happen.

 4     Therefore, either the report is not true or what you're telling is not

 5     true.  I'm not saying that you're intentionally saying something which is

 6     not true, but I'm saying the two contradict each other clearly.  Any

 7     explanation for that?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm just telling the truth and I am

 9     saying the truth, and I'm telling you that there were no sniper shooters.

10     And when proposals are made, they are always exaggerated so that they

11     would fair better.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  It is about training of snipers, specialist training

13     of snipers within the brigade.  That's what the report is about.  You say

14     it's not true?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My unit did not give anyone, did

16     not go out for training, and as far as I can remember --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not talking about unit.  I'm talking about

18     specialist snipers training within the brigade as described in the

19     report.  If you say it's not true, then the document is inaccurate.  If

20     you say "I don't know" or "I wasn't aware of it," that's a different

21     matter.  I'm just trying to find out where we are.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, there was no

23     training, specialist training for snipers.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  You have no knowledge of such training.

25             Please proceed, Mr. Weber.


Page 21869

 1             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 2        Q.   The second area indicates that there was squad commander

 3     training.  Did you receive this training as a company commander in the

 4     216th Brigade?

 5        A.   I underwent all training in peacetime before mobilisation; that

 6     is to say, starting with reserve officers school to - what was the

 7     name? - the training for platoon commanders, company commanders, and

 8     training for deputy commanders of battalions.

 9        Q.   Okay.  You've mentioned that there was some training after you

10     joined the 216th Brigade.  What type of training was that?

11        A.   Regular training that was planned.  I joined the 16th in 75.  The

12     216th Mountain Brigade, according to the war deployment of the then

13     state, the SFRY.

14        Q.   When you say "regular training," what type of training are you

15     talking about?

16        A.   Every few years they asked us to come for some kind of training.

17     After finishing reserve officers school, then I worked as a trainee.  And

18     then every two years there was training, and that was the plan of the JNA

19     in the SFRY.

20        Q.   Sir, if I could direct your attention back to the document in

21     front of you, and if you have any trouble seeing it, please let us know.

22     General Milosevic goes on to discuss some of the brigade's early

23     operations between September 1991 and March 1992.  He makes references to

24     operations in Dubrovnik during this time.

25             My question is very simple:  Did you participate in these


Page 21870

 1     operations?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   It indicates that another part of the brigade went to

 4     Borovo Naselje near Vukovar in Slavonia.  Did you participate in these

 5     operations?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Between which months did you go to Borovo Naselje?  Specifically,

 8     was it with the rest of the brigade in November 1991 or that -- part of

 9     that brigade?

10        A.   End of November 1991, when the fourteenth cease-fire was signed.

11        Q.   Is it correct that you operated -- the part of your brigade that

12     went, that you operated as a subordinate unit of Operation Group South?

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Could we scroll down this document, please.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We should go to the next page in English.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Borovo Naselje is continuing on the second page.

16     That's also where Dubrovnik is found, Mr. Weber --

17             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  -- where we couldn't see it earlier.  So we now have

19     it.

20             Please proceed.

21             MR. WEBER:

22        Q.   Sir, when you went to the area of Borovo Naselje in 1991, did

23     your part of your brigade operate as part of Operation Group South,

24     OG South?

25        A.   I think they belonged to the Novi Sad Corps.


Page 21871

 1        Q.   Would that be OG North?  Do you know?  If you don't know, that's

 2     fine too.

 3        A.   I don't know.  I don't know.  I don't know.

 4        Q.   In the third paragraph, I believe on the page in front of you,

 5     which is now the first full paragraph at the top of the English

 6     translation, General Milosevic states:

 7             "Parts of the brigade that were not engaged in the fighting in

 8     Eastern Slavonia and Dubrovnik were engaged in securing materiel and

 9     technical equipment in the Han Pijesak sector and securing transport from

10     Ustikolina to the Slavonia front."

11             Is this correct that this was the -- what the remainder of the

12     brigade did who did not go to either Dubrovnik or Borovo Naselje?

13        A.   As far as I know, they were providing security.  I don't remember

14     this because I wasn't there for Ustikolina.

15        Q.   Very well.

16             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution tenders 65 ter 30704 into evidence at

17     this time.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30704 receives number P6543, Your

20     Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  P6543 is admitted into evidence.  Could we have a

22     close look at the transcript in this respect.  Yes, there we are.

23             Please proceed.

24             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25        Q.   Sir, before the next break, I just want to see if we can get


Page 21872

 1     through one relatively brief topic.  In the supplemental statement that

 2     has been admitted in this case, you indicate that you returned to Ilidza

 3     after 16 August 1991.  Is it correct that you then left Ilidza again in

 4     mid-September when you rejoined the 216th Brigade?

 5        A.   I will try to understand but the question was not put to me

 6     clearly.  It is correct that I returned from Han Pijesak on the

 7     16th of May, so then on the 17th of May -- or, rather, August, I -- I

 8     reported at the company.  Then Hebib, the technical director, met me

 9     there --

10        Q.   Sir, if I could just cut you off before we get too far afield.

11     Is it correct that you were in Ilidza between 16 August and

12     17 September 1991?

13        A.   I am telling you that on the 17th, I think, August, I was at

14     Ilidza.  And -- I mean, later I was wasn't in Ilidza because I got this

15     decision on annual leave, and I had an apartment at Dobrinja V, and they

16     sent me off on holiday because they told me there was no work for me

17     anymore.  The technical director, Hebib Mustafa -- no, it wasn't Mustafa,

18     but Hebib it was.  He was a Muslim.

19        Q.   Sir, did all this happen between the -- my questions are very

20     simple:  Did all this happen between the 17th of August and the

21     17th of September, 1991?

22        A.   I'm telling you now that I was at Ilidza then and I did not go

23     back to Ilidza until the additional mobilisation took place.  I mean,

24     there was no need for me to go there.  I got this decision on annual

25     leave and there was no need for me to go there.


Page 21873

 1        Q.   Okay.  The remark you just made, I think, will be clear enough.

 2             In your previous testimony in the Karadzic case, this is at

 3     transcript page 29565, you stated:

 4             "In 1991 I left Ilidza and did not return to Ilidza until the end

 5     of the war.  I only passed through Ilidza."

 6             Then just so -- to be fair and to have a full account of this,

 7     then at -- two pages later, at 29567, you stated:

 8             "... I left Ilidza in 1991.  I went to see some friends on

 9     occasion in February 1992, and after that I didn't go to Ilidza again."

10             Do you stand by this testimony?

11        A.   Well, passing through Ilidza from time to time is not a stay in

12     Ilidza.  I understood you to be saying that I passed through Ilidza every

13     now and then during one month or stayed in Ilidza during one month?

14        Q.   Sir, I just read what you said in your previous case.  I'm just

15     asking you:  Do you stand by those statements?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   You were also asked in the Karadzic case, and this is on

18     page 29567:

19             "Q.  Did you ever see or hear about paramilitaries in Ilidza,

20     notwithstanding your in-and-out nature?"

21             Your answer was:

22             "I did not see them nor did I hear about them."

23             Do you stand by this testimony today?

24        A.   As far as I can remember, I did not see any paramilitaries there,

25     either Muslim or any other, at Ilidza.  But I heard that such Muslim


Page 21874

 1     units existed, and I believe that's what I said.

 2        Q.   Okay.  So, sir, do I understand correctly you are departing from

 3     your previous Karadzic statement that you did not see or hear about

 4     paramilitaries in Ilidza?

 5        A.   I repeat:  I didn't see them.  But as far as I can remember, I

 6     did hear about their existence.  People asked me where they were being

 7     trained and where they were.

 8        Q.   Well --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's go back to the question that was put to you,

10     Witness.

11             Mr. Weber read to you that in the Karadzic case your testimony

12     was that you did not see them nor that you heard about them.  Today

13     you're telling us still that you did not see them but - and that seems to

14     be different - that you did hear about them.  Is that well understood?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There may have been an error or,

16     rather, maybe I didn't say things through, but I did hear that there were

17     such units at Ilidza.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, if you quote from a previous case

19     questions like:  "Did you ever see or hear about paramilitaries in

20     Ilidza," of course the Chamber doesn't have any context.  So whether it

21     is part of a line of questioning about Serbian paramilitaries or

22     Muslim paramilitaries or both is totally unclear to us.  And perhaps for

23     our understanding it would be good --

24             MR. WEBER:  Sure.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  -- that also the context is provided to us.


Page 21875

 1             MR. WEBER:  No problem, Your Honours.  I'd be happy to provide

 2     it.  I see it's the break time.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it's time for a break.

 4             Witness, we take a break.  And we'd like to see you back,

 5     Mr. Dzida, in 20 minutes from now.  You may follow the usher.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7                           [The witness stands down]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at 5 minutes to 11.00.

 9                           --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

12             Mr. Weber.

13             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, just so the Chamber has the references

14     for today, the Prosecution has uploaded the Karadzic statement as

15     65 ter 30709.  And the Prosecution has uploaded the Karadzic transcript

16     as 65 ter 30710.  It appears I recreated the similar confusion as in the

17     last case, and I will be going to Karadzic transcript page -- strike

18     that.  I'll be going to 65 ter 30710, page 18 --

19                           [The witness takes the stand]

20             MR. WEBER:  -- once the witness comes back.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Please be seated, Mr. Dzida.

22             Mr. Weber will now continue his cross-examination.

23             Mr. Weber, please proceed.

24             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honours.

25        Q.   Mr. Dzida, I'm going to read you another part of your Karadzic


Page 21876

 1     transcript hopefully to clarify something that we were discussing right

 2     before the break.  During the Karadzic proceedings, Judge Kwon read you a

 3     portion of your statement.  He stated:

 4             "'During 1990, until 1992, I could not see paramilitary units on

 5     Ilidza, which, as it was later found out, the Muslims had already formed

 6     in the whole BiH by that time.'"

 7             He then asked you:

 8             "So here you referred to paramilitary units on Ilidza.  Did you

 9     mean Serb paramilitary units or Muslim paramilitary units?"

10             You answered:

11             "Your Honours, in this statement I said in 1990 up until 1992, I

12     didn't notice paramilitary units on Ilidza.  So it says up to 1992.  1992

13     isn't taken into account."

14             Judge Kwon, he asked you:

15             "No, my question was whether you meant Muslims or Serbs?"

16             You answered:

17             "Muslims.  At the time the Serbs didn't have any units."

18             Do you stand by this evidence?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Okay.

21             MR. WEBER:  Unless Your Honours have any other questions, I'm

22     going to move on.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Please move on.

24             MR. WEBER:

25        Q.   Throughout portions of your original B/C/S statement in this


Page 21877

 1     case, you referred to your brigade as the 1st Rpbr.  Could you just

 2     please clarify for us what this reference is to?

 3        A.   This is an infantry brigade or, rather, the Romanija Infantry

 4     Brigade or, rather, the 1st Romanija Infantry Brigade.

 5        Q.   In paragraph 5 of your statement, for the Chamber's reference,

 6     you have a sentence that states:

 7             "On 20 August 1992, the SRK command sent me to Jabucko Sedlo with

 8     the task of pulling out the civilian population and the part of the unit

 9     attacked by Muslims."

10             I just want to clarify this location with you.  Is Jabucko Sedlo

11     located to the north of Gorazde and the south of Rogatica?

12        A.   North of Gorazde.

13        Q.   And located to the south of Rogatica; is that correct?

14        A.   That's how it should be.

15             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 30702,

16     page 7 of the English and page 6 of the B/C/S.

17        Q.   Sir, for a little bit here, I'm going to be discussing with you

18     some information -- the information that we have available related to

19     your military service.  We do not have much information available for

20     you, so I'm going to be asking you to assist us with explaining a couple

21     of things.

22             Before you is a document from your military records.  It is an

23     assessment for the period of 30 June 1991 to 26 September 1996.  Can you

24     confirm that this is your signature on the bottom left side of this page?

25        A.   Yes, I can.


Page 21878

 1        Q.   In this assessment it indicates that in 1992 and 1993 you were

 2     the commander of a CVP company and you were wounded on two occasions.  Is

 3     this information accurate?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Is this a military police company?

 6        A.   First it was an infantry company, and then a military police

 7     company.

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not understand the last

 9     portion of the witness's answer.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat the last portion of your

11     answer because the interpreters were unable to catch it.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The first time I was wounded I was

13     in the infantry company, and then in October 1992 I was reassigned to the

14     military police company.  And then the following year on the 6th of May,

15     I was wounded in that company.  In the military police company, that is.

16             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, may I proceed?

17        Q.   The next sentence states:

18             "You were entrusted with the duty of commander of an infantry

19     battalion of the 1st Rpbr."

20             According to your statement in this case, paragraph 5, it

21     indicates that you took up this post on the date of 17 October 1994.  Is

22     it correct that the reference in this assessment refers to your

23     assignment as of October 1994?

24        A.   It is true that I was appointed on the 17th of October, 1994, and

25     I became the commander of the 4th Battalion in the Nisici plateau sector.


Page 21879

 1        Q.   Do you agree that the reference in this assessment that -- as to

 2     when you were -- that you were commander of an infantry battalion relates

 3     to that assignment as of October 1994?

 4        A.   I believe so.

 5        Q.   Do you -- do you --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  It might be -- the whole system seems to be ...

 7             If I switch on my microphone it doesn't work either.  Now it

 8     seems to -- could you try again, Mr. Weber.

 9             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

10        Q.   Do you agree that this text does not make reference to the

11     time-period when you served as an assistant commander for security and

12     information?

13        A.   No, there is no reference to that.  I don't know why that was

14     omitted.  I suppose it was a simple mistake, because I discharged those

15     duties as well until the moment when the battalion commander was

16     appointed.

17        Q.   Your answer's understood.  We're going to go through some more

18     information.  Do you also agree that this assessment does not specify the

19     brigade which you were part of as a company commander?

20        A.   The gentleman who drafted this, he was a member of the

21     2nd Romanija Brigade, which was set up after the signing of the

22     Dayton Agreement sometime in February.  One brigade arose as a result of

23     that and it was omitted, and there is no reference to any of the

24     documents to the 1st or the 2nd Romanija Brigades.

25             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have page 5 of the


Page 21880

 1     English and page 4 of the B/C/S of the same set of materials.

 2        Q.   Sir, I did want to go to the first page of this assessment

 3     because there is a reference to your post of assistant commander for

 4     information and security.  On this first page it indicates that you held

 5     four posts between the dates of 30 June 1991 and 26 September 1996.  Can

 6     you see the section where these four posts are indicated?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   There's no dates indicated for these, so what I'd like to ask you

 9     right now is; what is your best recollection of when you served in the

10     post of assistant commander for information and security?

11        A.   From the 9th of August, 1993, up to Easter, which was in

12     April 1994.  And then I became the deputy battalion commander after

13     Easter.  It was after Easter, I'm sure, but I don't remember the date.

14     On Easter I received the decision for my appointment as the deputy

15     battalion commander, and this assessment was drafted much later, in

16     peacetime, when a new unit had already been set up.  That's why there is

17     no reference to all of the units that I served in.

18        Q.   You just mentioned a new unit.  What unit was that?

19        A.   It was a peacetime unit which was the 512th Brigade, which was

20     composed of two former brigades.  My last appointment was the assistant

21     commander for logistics or, rather, a desk officer for logistics.  And I

22     was also the deputy assistant commander for logistics.

23             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, at this time the Prosecution tenders

24     65 ter 30702 into evidence.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.


Page 21881

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30702 receives number P6544,

 2     Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

 4             MR. WEBER:

 5        Q.   Mr. Dzida, I'm now going to go through some additional documents

 6     with you and some information is just unclear to us, so we --

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No problem at all, go ahead.

 8             MR. WEBER:

 9        Q.   -- we'd like you --

10             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 30705.

11        Q.   This is a Drina Corps command request number 17/16-25, dated

12     13 October 1993, to all units.  Mr. Dzida, as you can see, the document

13     requests information about those who were killed or wounded from the

14     beginning of the war until May 1992.

15             I have a simple question on this document before we move on to

16     the -- another document.  Do you agree that this request is sent to the

17     subordinate units of the Drina Corps?

18        A.   I can't say because I don't know.  I was in the Sarajevo Corps,

19     and the Drina Corps was set up on the 26th of October, 1992.

20        Q.   Okay.  Is it correct that there is no reference to this being

21     sent to any units of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps?  Do you agree with

22     that?

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, just --

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This document could not sent to the

25     SRK if the 2nd Corps sent it to its subordinate units.  Only a higher


Page 21882

 1     instance could have dispatched it for the 2nd Corps to receive it.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, this is what happens if you ask a witness

 3     to comment on what apparently is not in a document, then it starts

 4     explaining why, and whether that's solid knowledge, yes or no, is a

 5     different matter.  But if a document does not refer to something, then

 6     there is hardly any need to ask a witness whether it does unless that

 7     witness has a specific knowledge about the origin of the document or how

 8     it was created.  But otherwise, what's not in a document, everyone who

 9     can read can find out what is not in a document.  Again, apart from

10     special circumstances.  It's not the first time that you are doing it, so

11     therefore I would encourage you to refrain from these kind of things.

12             If there is any need for the next question for the witness to be

13     aware of it, then you can just put it to the witness that you see nothing

14     is said there, irrespective whether the witness confirms, or agree on the

15     matter with the Defence.

16             MR. WEBER:  Thank you.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

18             MR. WEBER:  Thank you very much, Your Honours.  I do understand

19     and I'll move on.

20             Your Honours, I'm going to be tendering this document, actually,

21     with the next one.  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 30706.

22        Q.   Sir, this is a 1st Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade response on

23     the same day to the Drina Corps request that we just looked at.  I would

24     like to draw your attention to number 4 in the section for

25     "Serious Wounded."  It states:


Page 21883

 1             "Milorad (Milos) Dzida, from Rogatica, born in," blank, "wounded

 2     on 4 May 1992 in Sarajevo, Vrbanja Most."

 3             Is it correct that this is a reference to you?

 4        A.   Yes, this is a reference to me because I was registered with

 5     Rogatica municipality, from which the 216th Mountain Brigade came during

 6     a mobilisation.  From the beginning of the war to its end, I remained

 7     with the 1st Romanija Brigade.

 8        Q.   Were you in the 1st Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade on this date,

 9     on the 13th of October, 1993?

10        A.   No, I was not.  I was not there.

11        Q.   Okay.  Were you ever in the 1st Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade

12     prior to this date?

13        A.   I was never its member save for the time when I went to

14     Jabucko Sedlo to save civilians from Gorazde because they had been

15     encircled by Muslims.  That's when I actually arrived in Rogatica

16     municipality.  When the Serbs abandoned Gorazde, I returned to my

17     original unit.

18        Q.   This document is from Rajko Kusic.  If you need to see it, we can

19     turn to the second page in the B/C/S and the English.  Or third page.

20             This document comes from Rajko Kusic.  Were you ever under his

21     command?

22        A.   I was never under his command.  I relied on his command for my

23     logistics supply when I was sent to Gorazde to help the people there.

24        Q.   Do you have any explanation as to why the 1st Podrinje

25     Light Infantry Brigade would be reporting about you?


Page 21884

 1        A.   Just a while ago I told you that the military department in

 2     Rogatica is where I was registered.  They sent me to serve in the army.

 3     I was a military conscript registered with them.  Rogatica mobilised

 4     people and sent them to the 216th Mountain Brigade.  My chart was with

 5     that department.  I lived in Sarajevo but I never deregistered from the

 6     military department in Rogatica; not for military purposes, that is.

 7        Q.   If you could help us clarify that.  Is it correct that you were

 8     registered as a -- in Rogatica and that is why the records of the

 9     Drina Corps reflect that you were possibly one of its members and not the

10     SRK?

11        A.   This is a probable explanation.  I was never a member of the

12     Rogatica Brigade.  I was always in the Drina Corps.

13             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution tenders 65 ter 30705 and 30706 into

14     evidence.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30705 receives number P6545.  And

17     document 30706 receives number P6546, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  P6545 and P6546 are admitted into evidence.

19             MR. WEBER:  I would just like to go through two more documents in

20     a similar fashion, and with the Chamber's instruction, I'll go through

21     the first one rather quickly.

22        Q.   But, sir, I'd like you to see it.

23             MR. WEBER:  Can the Prosecution please have 65 ter 30707.

24        Q.   Sir, I'm just going to describe the document to you but I wanted

25     you to see the document.  So if after I get done describing it you need


Page 21885

 1     anymore time to read it, just please let us know.  This is a Drina Corps

 2     command request numbered 05/1-377, dated 12 November 1994.  So just over

 3     a year after the last document we saw.  This request asks for updated

 4     information on the killed and wounded soldiers.

 5             And, sir, if you could look at line number 2 in particular before

 6     we go to the next document.  It states:

 7             "Send the data for the years since the beginning of the war.

 8     With regard to 1994, the closing date is 31 October 1994."

 9             Sir, I'm just going to ask you, before we go to the next

10     document, have you had enough time to look at this document?

11             MR. WEBER:  If the Prosecution could now please -- and,

12     Your Honours, just for the record, it appears the witness has nodded that

13     he's looked at it.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we noticed that.

15             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 30708.

16        Q.   Sir, this is a 1st Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade response the

17     next day to the Drina Corps request that we just looked at.  I'd like to

18     draw your attention to section B before we go on to a later page.

19             Under the section, there is information related to wounded

20     members of the brigade.  If you could look at the category row, there are

21     years and then there are the letters T and L underneath the years.

22             Is it correct that the letter T is for the word "tese" or "teze"

23     meaning "seriously wounded," and the letter L is for the word "lakse"

24     meaning "lightly wounded"?

25        A.   It should be so.  T, seriously, and L, lightly wounded.  But once


Page 21886

 1     again, it's a document from the Drina Corps and not from the

 2     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.

 3        Q.   Okay.  I just wanted to go through some information on this

 4     before we go to the next page.  Under Roman numeral --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, how do we have to understand the

 6     footnotes in relation to letters T and L in the English version?

 7             MR. WEBER:  I do not think that they are accurate.  I leave it in

 8     the context of the document.  That's why I was asking the witness to

 9     clarify.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, they do not appear in the original and

11     therefore you suggest that we ignore those comments contained in those

12     footnotes.

13             Please proceed.

14             MR. WEBER:  Under Roman numeral II, there is data for reserve

15     forces.

16        Q.   Sir, if you could follow me across on the row for officers, this

17     row indicates that there were two reserve officers who were seriously

18     wounded and six reserve officers who were lightly wounded in 1992.  One

19     reserve officer who was seriously wounded in 1993.  And then if you go

20     across the row, the total appears to bring it to three seriously wounded

21     officers and six lightly wounded reserve officers.

22             Do you see the row that I'm referring to?

23        A.   Yes.

24             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have page 4 of the

25     English and page 3 of the B/C/S.


Page 21887

 1        Q.   Now, sir, there is a list attached to this response.  Under the

 2     heavily wounded section, there are three officers listed:  Two in 1992

 3     and one in 1993.  Under the section for lightly wounded officers, there

 4     are six individuals listed, all from 1992, and it appears your name is

 5     listed at number two.

 6             Would your explanation of this document be the same as what you

 7     previously stated with respect to the documents we looked at from 1993,

 8     your explanation for being included as part of the Drina Corps records?

 9        A.   I told you how it could be possible that the military department

10     provided the information to the Rogatica Brigade, as I don't see how else

11     it could have been.  I was never subordinated to the Rogatica Brigade.

12             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution at this time tenders 65 ter 30707 and

13     30708 into evidence.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me, if I may.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you may after I have heard the numbers from

17     Madam Registrar.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Documents 30707 receives number P6547, and

19     document 30708 receives number P6548, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Dzida, what did you want to say?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This time, the first time when I

22     was wounded, I was a member of the Yugoslav People's Army because the

23     Army of Republika Srpska had not yet been established and the reports

24     were sent to military departments.  That's most probably why I figure in

25     this list.  Because I was wounded the first time on the 6th of May --


Page 21888

 1     excuse me, the 4th of May, 1992.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  P6547 and P6548 are admitted into evidence.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. WEBER:

 5        Q.   Sir, I'd like to move on to a new topic now and discuss your

 6     statements in first the Karadzic case and then the Mladic case.  Is it

 7     correct that you provided a statement in the Karadzic case?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Prior to signing that statement, is it correct that you were

10     interviewed on at least two occasions by members of the Karadzic Defence

11     team?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   The names of the individuals who interviewed you from the

14     Karadzic Defence team were Slobodan Batnic [phoen] and Milomir Savcic; is

15     that correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   You knew both of these individuals prior to your interviews with

18     them; is that correct?

19        A.   Superficially.

20        Q.   Well, is it correct that you knew them from during the war?

21        A.   Just a little, superficially.  I may have met them in passing and

22     so on.  We didn't have anything in common.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  The question was whether you knew them from during

24     the war.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard of them but we didn't


Page 21889

 1     socialise.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  The question was whether you knew them from during

 3     the war.  That is a time-period.  Not where, not what you were wearing,

 4     not what you spoke about, but whether it was during the war that you got

 5     to know them.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, we didn't meet during the war.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Then tell us when you -- since when you knew them

 8     and how you knew them.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With Milomir I had coffee for the

10     first time when we conducted the interview here.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

12             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit D489.

13        Q.   Sir, coming up before you will be your statement in this case,

14     the Mladic case.

15             Is it correct that you were interviewed on four occasions prior

16     to your signing this statement?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Could you tell us approximately how long each of these interviews

19     were?

20        A.   They lasted at least an hour to an hour and a half each.  I

21     usually had to leave and I was in a rush because I had some obligations.

22        Q.   Is it correct that you know Mr. Slavko Gengo?

23        A.   I do.  He used to be my commander.

24        Q.   In Mr. Gengo's statement that is admitted in this case, it

25     indicates that he was interviewed on two of the same dates as you; these


Page 21890

 1     dates being the 28th and 29th of October, 2013.

 2             Did you see Mr. Gengo on either of these dates?

 3        A.   I did.  I just don't remember which dates they were.

 4        Q.   Was -- when you saw Mr. Gengo on either the 28th or

 5     29th of October, 2013, was anyone else present besides the two of you?

 6        A.   We were never together.  We were always separate.  I always

 7     insisted to finish as soon as possible.  I had to complete my work

 8     because I had to perform some work at a company.

 9        Q.   Okay.  According to the statement --

10             MR. WEBER:  And if we could please go to the last page, which I

11     believe contains the date that it was signed.

12        Q.   According to this statement, it indicates that you signed this on

13     the 10th of May, 2014.  This also corresponds to the date Mr. Gengo

14     signed his statement.  Did you see him on that date, 10 May 2014?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   When was the most recent occasion that you --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask -- perhaps, Mr. Weber, could I ask,

18     then, a few questions?

19             MR. WEBER:  Sure.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  The 10th of May, where did you sign this statement?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Pale.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could you be a bit more precise, where in

23     Pale?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In a building called the

25     Tradesmen's Centre in Pale.


Page 21891

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now you made some corrections to your

 2     statement.  Recently we received the corrections.  Apparently they were

 3     made in The Hague although there is no date on it.  This signed

 4     correction, did you sign that when you -- after your arrival in

 5     The Hague?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  On the 10th of May, why did you not make the

 8     corrections on that day?  Could you explain that to us?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 10th of May I read it and I

10     didn't immediately notice that there were any typos or errors.  And then

11     later on, I corrected them at home, when I read the statement for the

12     second or third time.  It was then that I corrected the errors.  And so

13     some of my recollections were left out.  They were not recorded.  And I

14     had forgotten or I didn't have enough time when I was with

15     President Karadzic.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  You said you didn't have enough time when you were

17     with -- let me read it again.  With President Karadzic.  Could you

18     explain that.  When did you have not sufficient time for what exactly?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Then, when the public prosecutor

20     lady asked me, I couldn't remember the name because she kept interrupting

21     me, and I had no time, the time that was allowed to me to answer some

22     questions.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  But I'm talking about your statement, the statement

24     as we received it.  Or is that a statement which is the same as the

25     statement you gave in the Karadzic case?


Page 21892

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Similar.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  You said you read it on the 10th of May.  How much

 3     time did you have to read it on that date?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  As far as I remember, up to

 5     25 or 30 minutes, because I needed about five to six minutes per page to

 6     read it and sign it.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 8             Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

 9             MR. WEBER:

10        Q.   When was the most recent occasion that you have seen or spoken

11     with Slavko Gengo?

12        A.   Before my departure I saw him passing and I talked to him from a

13     car.  And I saw him when I arrived here as well, and then we talked but

14     not about the case.

15        Q.   When you saw him before your departure, where did you see him?

16        A.   In Pale.  As far as I remember, I think it was near the

17     Dva Goluba cafe restaurant.

18        Q.   When did you arrive in The Hague?

19        A.   On the 16th of May.

20        Q.   When did you see Slavko Gengo after the 16th of May?

21        A.   I saw him in Belgrade at the airport, and I was surprised because

22     I didn't know at the time that he was travelling too.  But he was

23     accommodated in a different hotel, and two or three days later we

24     happened to meet accidentally.

25        Q.   To understand correctly, is it correct that the two of you


Page 21893

 1     travelled here to The Hague together on the 16th of May?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you know, was he the only other witness in this

 4     case with whom you travelled together or were there more persons on that

 5     same plane that travelled to The Hague in order to appear as witnesses?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.  Because we didn't

 7     sit together.  I sat far away from him, so we were not close to each

 8     other on the plane, and I didn't know anyone else.

 9             MR. WEBER:

10        Q.   You said you saw him two or three days after your arrival.  Did

11     you speak with him at any other time after your arrival in The Hague?

12        A.   I've told you that we talked but we never discussed the cases

13     because of which we came here.  When we were received by the VWS, we got

14     a paper telling us that it was prohibited to discuss such matters.

15        Q.   Did you watch Mr. Gengo's testimony?

16        A.   No, I couldn't do it.

17        Q.   Since you've been in The Hague, have you seen any other witnesses

18     who have appeared or will appear during these proceedings?

19        A.   Yes, a few.  But I hadn't known most of them before.

20        Q.   I just want to go back to one more simple question.  Is -- could

21     you tell us approximately how many times per year you see Slavko Gengo?

22        A.   Very few.  If you want the numbers, perhaps four or five times.

23     But we would meet briefly.  I am retired and I sometimes work on the

24     basis of contracts and I work for 10 or 12 hours a day, so I just go to

25     work or I'm at home.  When I have free time, I go to my native village


Page 21894

 1     and there I till some land, so I have very little time.

 2        Q.   Sir, I'm going to move on to actually another topic.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Before you do that --

 4             MR. WEBER:  Okay.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  -- may I put a question to the witness?

 6             MR. WEBER:  Sure.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I am referring to the beginning of page 42 of

 8     today's transcript.

 9             Sir, you were asked by Mr. Weber about the 28th and

10     29th of October, 2013, when you were interviewed by the Defence team of

11     Mr. Mladic.  And Mr. Weber asked you:

12             "Did you see Mr. Gengo on either of these days?"

13             And your answer was:

14             "I did.  I just don't remember which dates they were."

15             Then the next question of Mr. Weber was more or less:  Was anyone

16     else present besides the two of you?  And then your answer was:

17             "We were never together.  We were always separate."

18             Can you explain that, that you saw Mr. Gengo, yes, and that you

19     were never together?  I would like to understand the situation.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw him in passing here, but we

21     were not together in the same office when we had to do this with regard

22     to the case.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You are saying that you saw him here.  Was that

24     interview conducted here in The Hague or in --

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the corridor, in the corridor.


Page 21895

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Which corridor?  Here in The Hague?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The corridor of the rooms where we

 3     met with the Defence team.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I'm asking you about end of October 2013.  Was

 5     that -- did that happen here in The Hague?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We were not together in the same

 7     room even then, not together at the same time.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Here in The Hague or somewhere else?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 29th of October, I'm talking

10     about this date, 2013.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Where?  Here in The Hague or where else?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Pale.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank --

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All my meetings with the gentlemen

15     took place in Pale.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you for this clarification.

17             Mr. Weber.

18             MR. WEBER:

19        Q.   Sir, I want to move on to discuss the commission you describe

20     after the Markale shelling.

21             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, for the record this is in paragraphs 18

22     to 21 of the witness's statement.

23        Q.   In your statement you claim that there were a mixed commission

24     that investigated your firing positions on the 6th of February, 1994, a

25     day after the shelling.  Is it correct that the commission you describe


Page 21896

 1     was not formed and it did not carry out an investigation?

 2        A.   It's not correct.  There was a commission and it did carry out an

 3     on-site investigation.

 4        Q.   You did not know any of the names of the UNPROFOR members who

 5     took part in this commission; is that correct?

 6        A.   No, I didn't know the names then because we were not entitled to

 7     ask for their names or record their names, even when they came to carry

 8     out regular inspection duties.

 9        Q.   Is it correct that you do not know how many UNPROFOR members were

10     part of this inspection?

11        A.   I think that there were five or six of them, plus the

12     interpreters.  But there weren't fewer than five, that's for sure,

13     because their Toyota was full.  It was a passenger vehicle.

14        Q.   Is it correct that you do not know the names of anyone from the

15     VRS Main Staff who were part of this commission?

16        A.   I don't remember the names.

17        Q.   Is it correct that you do not know the names of anyone from the

18     SRK command who were part of this commission?

19        A.   Likewise, I don't remember their names.

20        Q.   Is it correct that you don't know the name of any representatives

21     from the brigade command who took part in this commission?

22        A.   Well, from the brigade command there was the late Mile Pajic,

23     Captain First Class, and First Class Warrant Officer Jakovljevic, I think

24     that his first name was Ilija.

25        Q.   All right.  I want to go through a couple of things now with


Page 21897

 1     you -- well, are those the only names that you can recall that were

 2     possibly part of this commission?

 3        A.   I only remember those who were from my own brigade.

 4        Q.   Okay.  In your statement --

 5             MR. WEBER:  And, Your Honours, for the record, this is in

 6     paragraph 18.

 7        Q.   -- you state:

 8             "On 5 February 1994, I think that it was in the afternoon, the

 9     brigade command informed us that this incident had occurred and that a

10     mixed commission would come to the battalion on that day or the following

11     day to carry out an on-site investigation."

12             You say that the brigade command informed "us."  Who were you

13     with when you first learned of this incident?  Was it Mr. Gengo?

14        A.   I heard of that incident from Mr. Gengo because he conveyed that

15     to me at the meeting in the morning on the 6th.  We had a meeting and I

16     was proposing where I should go on that day, and then he told me where I

17     should go, that I should go with the commission that will come to tour

18     the area.

19        Q.   All right.  That wasn't exactly my question.  This part of your

20     statement appears to indicate that on the 5th of February, 1994, the

21     brigade command informed "us."  Who were you with when you were informed

22     about this commission?

23        A.   That statement, where it says "we," I meant the commander.  So it

24     was through him.  It's not that they called me personally to tell me.

25     They talked to the commander.


Page 21898

 1        Q.   When you say "the commander," are you referring to your battalion

 2     commander, Mr. Gengo?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   In the Karadzic case --

 5             MR. WEBER:  And, Your Honours --

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Before you move on --

 7             MR. WEBER:  Sorry.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  -- I would like to clarify this matter.

 9             In your statement you said:  "... the brigade command informed

10     us ..."

11             Does it mean that Mr. Gengo as the commander informed himself and

12     you?  So I'm really a little bit confused.  Can you explain that?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Gengo knew, I mean, that he

14     received this order and he told the brigade command about this when we

15     met in the morning when this commission was supposed to be accompanied.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The sentence then should read:  The brigade

17     commander, Gengo, informed me.  Would that be correct?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Informed me in the morning hours of

19     the 6th.  That is how it should read.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Weber.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  We have to take a break now, Mr. Weber.

22             Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.

23                           [The witness stands down]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  We take a break and will resume at 20 minutes past

25     midday.


Page 21899

 1                           --- Recess taken at 11.59 a.m.

 2                           --- On resuming at 12.22 p.m.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, do I understand that you have shared the

 4     information about the origin of D - what was it? - 417?

 5             MR. LUKIC:  D471.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  D471, yes.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  We investigated about the provenance of this document

 8     and we found it among the documents of the Tribunal.  It is admitted in

 9     Karadzic case under number D2510, and it was admitted in Galic case under

10     number D1312.

11                           [The witness takes the stand]

12             MR. GROOME:  And we've done our own check, Your Honour, and I

13     withdraw any objection to the admission of the document.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  D471 is admitted into evidence.

15             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

17             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, just to inform the Chamber, I've

18     informed the Defence that I'll be finishing shortly.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20             MR. WEBER:  And so -- for scheduling purposes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

22             MR. WEBER:

23        Q.   Mr. Dzida --

24        A.   [No interpretation]

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We could not understand


Page 21900

 1     what the witness said.  It was off mike.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you were far away from the microphone when you

 3     said something, Mr. Dzida.  So if you could repeat it.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is a draft coming from up

 5     here.  There is something blowing in my direction.  That's what I said.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  I'll ask Madam Registrar to take care that something

 7     is done about it.  If it is bothering you too much --

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can take it.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Then Mr. Weber will continue his cross-examination.

10             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 30709,

11     page 6.

12        Q.   Mr. Dzida, I'm just going to go through a couple of your

13     statements about this commission from the past.  I'm going to start with

14     your statement in the Karadzic case.  And, sir, since the -- there is not

15     a translation available for this, please be patient with me.  I'm going

16     to read it to you.

17             MR. WEBER:  And I'm going to be reading, for the record, from

18     paragraphs 16 and 17.

19        Q.   Your statement in the past case states:

20             "With regard to the incident referred to as G8, I know the

21     following:  On 5 February 1994, I think it was in the afternoon, the

22     brigade command informed us that that incident occurred and that a mixed

23     commission would come to the battalion on that or the following day to

24     carry out an on-site investigation."

25             The beginning of the next paragraph states:


Page 21901

 1             "On 6 February 1994, between 0900 and 1000 hours, representatives

 2     of the GS /Main Staff/ of the VRS /Army of Republika Srpska/, the

 3     SRK /Sarajevo-Romanija Corps/, UNPROFOR, and the 1st Rpbr came," and then

 4     you continue to describe.

 5             Sir, does this accurately record, what I've read to you, your

 6     past statement from the Karadzic case?

 7        A.   Roughly.  As far as I can remember, the commander appointed me in

 8     the morning at that meeting to be team leader.

 9             MR. WEBER:  If we could please go to page 10 of this same

10     statement.

11        Q.   In this same statement in the Karadzic case, you provided

12     corrections in additional paragraphs to the statement, and you made

13     corrections during your proofing in the Karadzic case on this same topic.

14     In paragraph 29 you stated:

15             "Two or three days after the Markale incident in February 1994,

16     an UNPROFOR commission unexpectedly came to inspect our positions and

17     mortars.  The brigade command informed us that this UNPROFOR commission

18     would come and inspect our positions in half an hour."

19             Is it correct that this is a clarification that you made during

20     the Karadzic case?

21        A.   I'm sorry.  Could you please just repeat the beginning of your

22     question before this text that you read out?

23        Q.   Sure.  Your Karadzic statement states:

24             "Two or three days after the Markale incident in February 1994,

25     an UNPROFOR commission unexpectedly came to inspect our positions and


Page 21902

 1     mortars."

 2             Do you need me to read further?

 3        A.   No.  The team leader came then.  I think he was a major, a

 4     Frenchman.  And after arriving in our battalion, I mean, that's what was

 5     meant, he informed me that there was no firing from the defence area of

 6     our battalion.  And he gave a gift both to me and to the commander, a

 7     belt.

 8        Q.   Sir, I'll read on in your paragraph.  But I just wanted to first

 9     confirm that this was a correction that you made during the Karadzic

10     case.

11             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with all due

12     respect, just -- is it a correction or --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, one second.  Could you please take your

14     earphones off.

15             MR. LUKIC:  But Mr. Stojanovic is speaking in B/C/S.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  That's the reason --

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm speaking in B/C/S.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, Mr. Stojanovic.

19             Mr. Weber, I noticed that on a page not shown to us, it's page 9,

20     it says:  "Additional information elicited on the 30th of November,

21     2012" --

22             MR. WEBER:  Yes.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  -- "translated by the Karadzic Defence team."

24             Whether it's a correction or not, and I take it, Mr. Stojanovic,

25     that was one of your concerns, still may have to be established.  And you


Page 21903

 1     presented it as:  Is it true that you make this correction.  I think you

 2     should inquire first into what this additional information -- what caused

 3     him to give this additional information.

 4             If that deals with the matter, then we have no problem with you

 5     speaking B/C/S, Mr. Stojanovic.

 6             Could the witness put on his earphones again.

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with all due

 8     respect, could you please focus on paragraph 21 in this case, lest there

 9     be any misunderstanding.

10             MR. WEBER:

11        Q.   Sir, how about this.  I'll read out the full paragraph,

12     paragraph 29, from your statement in the Karadzic case.  And this is

13     under a section entitled: "Additional Information," that you provided

14     during that case.  It says:

15             "Two or three days after the Markale incident in February 1994,

16     an UNPROFOR commission unexpectedly came to inspect our positions and

17     mortars.  The brigade command informed us ... this UNPROFOR commission

18     would come and inspect our positions in half an hour.  The UNPROFOR

19     commission concluded that the mortars were not used for quite some time

20     and that there were no traces of mortar use.  In addition, they concluded

21     that our crew did not even approach the mortars recently.  A Russian

22     member of the inspecting team measured and calculated the angles around

23     the mortars and had a discussion with the rest of the team.  One or two

24     days later, a French officer came to our command, told us that they had

25     concluded that our unit had not opened fire during the Markale incident,


Page 21904

 1     and gave his belt to the battalion commander, Gengo," it says, "as a

 2     present.  The UNPROFOR team told us that we were the only unit in that

 3     area that they were interested in.  We were also the only unit in that

 4     area."

 5             Is this the additional information that you provided in the

 6     Karadzic case?

 7        A.   At the beginning perhaps there was a mistake in translation or

 8     something like that, but 100 per cent sure it was the 6th when this mixed

 9     commission was held, the Serbs and the UNPROFOR.  And then later on it's

10     correct that this Frenchman came, this major.  I think they belonged to

11     the Foreign Legion, engineering.  And I think he was their commander.

12        Q.   Sir, I put it to you that this additional information that you

13     provided in the Karadzic case appears inconsistent in terms of what you

14     described in the Mladic statement; in particular, the timing.  That it

15     appears that you are describing similar events that occurred two or

16     three days after the incident, and then you are also describing when the

17     French officer came as being two days after that.

18        A.   Yes, but the first check was carried out on the 6th.  That's

19     100 per cent sure.  It started at 10.00 and it went on for about

20     three hours, a bit more than that, when the representatives of the Serbs

21     were there.

22        Q.   Is it correct that you did not offer a report of your own related

23     to this visit?

24        A.   Well, I did not make a report because my chief of security was

25     there and his deputy was there, and we together --


Page 21905

 1        Q.   I'm sorry, sir, did you have anything else to say?

 2        A.   Together we made this report, and I was there when it was coded

 3     and sent to Serb [as interpreted] because I could not send reports

 4     through my superiors, through the chief of security of the brigade.

 5             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honours.  I have no further

 6     questions.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we give an opportunity for further

 8     examination.  This French officer, did he come back a few days after the

 9     commission had visited you, as you said, on the 6th of February?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, in a few days.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  He came back alone?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He had a few officers with him and

13     an interpreter, some girl.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  And did they again go to the site where

15     120-millimetre mortars had been or did they just report the outcome of

16     their earlier visit?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He had not been there during the

18     earlier visit.  We went to both areas where the mortars were and we came

19     back to the command.  We did not stay there.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just check.  So if I understand you well,

21     there was a visit on the 6th of February?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  And --

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And this other one was two or

25     three days -- well, I can't remember the exact date.


Page 21906

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now what were then the results, to the extent

 2     you know, of this first visit?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for the first visit, this is my

 4     understanding of what the interpreter said to us when we asked, and our

 5     mortars were not used.  That is 100 per cent sure.  And there was no

 6     firing coming from there.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Interpreting from what language into what language?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Into Serbian.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  My question was from what language into what.

10     You have answered the second part of my question, but what were the

11     persons speaking whose words had to be translated?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not very knowledgeable.  I

13     only speak Serbian.  I've never spoken any other language, believe me.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  So you don't know --

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But I'm talking about his

16     statement, what he said to us, I mean this interpreter.  What he said to

17     me, and to Pajic and Jakovljevic.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Do you know whether he was translating at that

19     moment, or did he give his personal impressions?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that he was translating.

21     After all, I don't know whether he had the right to present his personal

22     views.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  So -- but you do not know whether he was

24     translating --

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm just telling you what he said


Page 21907

 1     to us then.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Now, you also describe this visit and you

 3     said: "They measured the azimuth."

 4             Could you explain to us what you exactly meant by that?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Some of these officer were

 6     measuring the azimuth, and they were doing this calculation in terms of

 7     the mortar and they were using a compass and so on, and they were writing

 8     things but I could not see.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  What do you mean exactly by "azimuth"?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the cardinal points.  Things

11     like that.  Also the distance was measured --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Just --

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- in terms of where the mortar was

14     standing.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Distance from where to where?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Where the barrel was turned and

17     then they measured the distance and this azimuth, and then they got their

18     compasses out, orienting themselves.  I know that they were trying to see

19     where north/south was and ...

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Again, what do you do you mean by they measured the

21     azimuth?  What do you understand to be the azimuth?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The point where we were.  And then

23     they were looking at where the mortars were because they had their own

24     maps and they wouldn't allow us to look at those maps.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Now, again, you say the azimuth, the point


Page 21908

 1     where you were.  Does that mean, for example, the grid reference?  The

 2     exact location?  Is that what you mean by "azimuth"?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes.  Yes.  Yes.  The

 4     co-ordinate, the point, exactly where we were.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, what is often referred to as a grid reference.

 6     On a map you look at -- you are at 76 point -- that is what you call

 7     azimuth.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then you said they measured the distance.

10     Distance between what and what?  Because distance means --

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were looking at the mortar

12     itself, how the barrel was turned, in which direction.  As far as I can

13     remember, they were walking back and forth, taking a few steps back and

14     forth.  In terms of accent that was used, our comment was that this must

15     have been a Russian, an expert for artillery.  I mean, the accent of the

16     speech that he had.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  What language was he speaking?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think he spoke English, but his

19     accent.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  So what you are telling us is that --

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wasn't sure.  But that's an

22     assumption.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  You told us a minute ago that you are not that good

24     in languages that you could tell us what people were speaking and when

25     their words were translated.  And I do understand your testimony to be


Page 21909

 1     now that you were able to hear what accent this officer had when he spoke

 2     English.  Is that correctly understood?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I've told you after that he

 4     spoke English.  I wasn't sure, but I understood his accent because he

 5     spoke differently from the others.  He knew that language less than the

 6     other officers did.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  So you were able to hear that the others were

 8     speaking English, whereas a while ago when I asked you from what

 9     language --

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm telling you they spoke

11     differently.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me take you back.  A minute ago when I asked you

13     from what language translation was made into your language, and then you

14     said:  "Well, I'm not that good at languages.  I couldn't tell you."  And

15     now you're telling us that translation was made from English into

16     Serbian.

17             Have you any explanation why a minute ago you did not know what

18     language they spoke that was translated to you and where you now seem to

19     be certain about it being English and even being able to distinguish

20     between the accent in the English language?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure.  However, I said that

22     it was English.  I said that I believed that it was English.  I believe

23     that the language spoken was English.  I'm not sure.  However, when he

24     spoke, I realised that he spoke in a different accent than the others.  I

25     didn't understand what they were saying and not everything was


Page 21910

 1     interpreted for us.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Now I would like to come back to the

 3     distance.  The distance is to be measured between one point and another

 4     point.  What distance did they measure?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Around the mortar.  That's where

 6     they took measurements and that's where they measured the distances.

 7     From one mortar to the next, the way they were deployed.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  So the distance between one barrel and another

 9     barrel of this mortar --

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Yes, yes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, let me -- and then I do understand they used a

12     compass.  Do you have any expert knowledge --

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you have any expert knowledge on mortars?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not really.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Did they further explain why, as you heard from the

17     interpreter, these could not have been the mortars that were used to fire

18     projectiles that had landed on the Markale market?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When the truce was declared,

20     everything was cleaned.  Caps were put on the barrels so they would not

21     go bad and the crews never approached those mortars.  And it -- you could

22     see with a naked eye that no mortar had been fired.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  You said caps were put on the barrels and you said

24     the crews never approached those mortars, but that's not what this

25     commission could establish, could they?


Page 21911

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You could see on the spot there

 2     were no traces, nobody had been walking around them.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  These mortars had been there unattended and there

 4     were no footsteps, is that what you are saying as an explanation on --

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is my explanation.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Now just your personal opinion:  Do you think that

 7     you could fire at the centre of the city of Sarajevo with those mortars

 8     as far as the location is concerned?  I'm not asking whether they did or

 9     whether -- it's a 120-millimetre mortar, whether that can fire in such a

10     way from that location so that it would be possible for a projectile to

11     land on the Markale market?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand your question fully.

13     My personal opinion about 82 mortars [as interpreted], but this is

14     120-millimetre artillery.  There is no way a shell could have landed

15     there.  There is a six-storey building and several three- or four-storey

16     buildings.  I used to come to that market every week for several years.

17     I know the layout.  And there were never so many people there at any one

18     time that one round could have done so much damage.  Historically, it was

19     unknown.  And in any case, that round could not have flown over that high

20     building and could not have landed there.

21             I really have my doubts about the whole thing.  I believe that

22     something had been planted.  I am convinced.  And the round was never

23     fired from there.  Either I or Gengo approved firing of the rounds when

24     targets were defined according to range finders and those were only

25     military targets.  We did not have that many rounds so we were very


Page 21912

 1     careful how many we used; in other words, none of the crew were allowed

 2     or dared fire a round independently.  I claim with full responsibility

 3     that that was not done from the positions of the 7th Battalion or from

 4     any of the positions of the VRS.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you tell us whether the members of the

 6     commission that visited this site, whether they had expert knowledge

 7     about mortars?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe so.  Two of the officers

 9     were very familiar with artillery.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  And how do you know that?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because the others were standing on

12     the side and they were looking for a good spot from which they could

13     define co-ordinates and the distance between the barrels and everything

14     else, and they were the only ones who commented on the situation.  The

15     others didn't.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  And were they the foreign officers or were they

17     members --

18             MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  -- of the VRS?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were UNPROFOR members,

21     foreigners.  Our men did not have the right to approach the barrels.  We

22     were just observers.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  But it was a mixed commission, wasn't it?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, but they were the ones doing

25     and we were the ones watching.


Page 21913

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And you said from their comments you

 2     understood that they were experts.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  You couldn't understand their comments, could you?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, but we heard it from the

 6     interpreter, providing that the interpretation was accurate.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  So you now describe the commission as UNPROFOR

 8     coming close to the location of the mortars; VRS Main Staff,

 9     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, staying at a distance, not even verifying their

10     measurements or -- the UNPROFOR made?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We were all rather close to the

12     barrels.  When we came close to the mortars, we were standing near the

13     trenches where our troops were deployed, and they were the ones who

14     approached the mortars and took all the measurements.  They did

15     everything.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Did they share the measurements with you?  Did they

17     write it down and give it to you or to the Main Staff people?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They marked those measurements in

19     their own maps.  As far as I know, they did not give us anything.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  So that commission didn't share anything they noted

21     down at that moment with the --

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nothing was handed over.  I believe

23     that they promised that they would send everything through official

24     channels.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  And they have kept that promise or did they break


Page 21914

 1     that promise?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what happened.  If

 3     they did send anything, it was sent to a superior command.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You said:  "I believe that they promised ..."

 5     You are not certain about that?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They did promise, but I don't know

 7     whether they delivered on that promise.  I think that they should have

 8     sent it to our superior command.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And is it, then, that a few days later another

10     UNPROFOR group came to the spot?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  And how was that composed?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The head of that group was a French

14     major.  I believe that they belonged to the legion of foreigners.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  And what did they do exactly during that visit?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We inspected both mortar positions,

17     and on the way back, we also looked at Moscanica water source.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  And did they measure anything?  And if so, what did

19     they measure?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, they didn't measure anything.

21     They just looked at the positions and then they returned.  The whole

22     visit was perhaps 10 minutes long.  That's how long we stayed in the

23     positions.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  And without having measured anything, I do

25     understand you heard from the interpreter that the battalion had nothing


Page 21915

 1     to do with this incident?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That major said it personally when

 3     we returned to the command.  He gave us belts, to me and to my commander,

 4     while the interpreter interpreted for us.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Did they explain to you how just looking at

 6     the spot a bit, how they could establish that the battalion had got

 7     nothing to do with the incident, not having measured anything?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that the statement was

 9     provided based on the previous investigations which were carried out both

10     in Sarajevo and on the spot by the mortar positions.  That was not his

11     personal opinion.  I believe that he just conveyed what his superiors

12     thought.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  And was the first visit, did he tell that that had

14     been part of the information on which his superiors had concluded that

15     your battalion had got nothing to do with it, was that part of the

16     information on which this conclusion was drawn?  And I mean with the

17     first visit, the mixed commission you told us about.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's the way I understood him.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  I have no further questions.

20             Have the questions by -- first of all, Mr. Stojanovic, any need

21     for further questions?

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.  And I thank

23     you.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Have the questions by the Bench triggered any need

25     for further questions by the Prosecution?


Page 21916

 1             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, if I can just check one thing.  No,

 2     Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Then this concludes your testimony, Mr. Dzida.  I'd

 4     like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague and for having

 5     answered all the questions that were put to you; questions put to you by

 6     the parties, questions put to you by the Bench.  I wish you a safe return

 7     home again.  You may follow the usher.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9                           [The witness withdrew]

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Is the Defence ready to call its next witness?

12             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I'm afraid we'll have to wait until the usher

14     returns --

15             MR. LUKIC:  Probably.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  -- in order to have the witness escorted into the

17     courtroom.

18             Mr. Groome.

19             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, if I can make use of this time.

20             Last week the Chamber had made an inquiry about UNMO documents

21     related to Lima V and I undertook to provide additional information this

22     week.  Unfortunately, I think I underestimated the size of the task and

23     also the workload that we have, so I just want to inform the Chamber that

24     we are working on it actively and it may take some more time.  And as

25     soon as we are able to provide fuller information to the Chamber, we will


Page 21917

 1     do that.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, if you please -- could we agree that -- well,

 3     let's say that we hear from you somewhere in the next two weeks, would

 4     that be -- or would you need more time?  The problem is if we have no

 5     agreed moment when we hear from you, there is always a risk that it slips

 6     out of our minds.

 7             MR. GROOME:  I appreciate that.  I think Mr. Stojanovic undertook

 8     to provide that before the break.  Could we set that as the date, the

 9     control date.  But I think we will be able to provide something well in

10     advance of that.  So we would undertake to provide it at the same time as

11     the Defence, but we'll endeavour to do it before then.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Yes, before the summer recess --

13             MR. GROOME:  Yes.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  -- you say, yes.  Okay.  Then we'll hear from you

15     before --

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honour.  We

17     spoke to our witness who mentioned those reports, and he promised to send

18     us information about those members of UNPROFOR with whom he spoke and

19     then we will investigate further.

20                           [The witness entered court]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  That's on the record.

22             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, may Ms. MacGregor and I please be

23     excused.  Do you mind if we --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

25             Good afternoon, Mr. Cvoro.


Page 21918

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you

 3     make a solemn declaration.  May I invite you to make that solemn

 4     declaration of which the text is now handed out to you.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 6     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated.

 8             Mr. Cvoro, you'll first be examined by Mr. Lukic.  You'll find

 9     him to your left.  Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

10             You may proceed.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

12                           WITNESS:  ZDRAVKO CVORO

13                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

14                           Examination by Mr. Lukic:

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Cvoro.

16        A.   Good afternoon to you, sir.

17        Q.   I will call up a document in e-court.  You will see it on your

18     screen.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to call up 1D1606.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, there is some fear that it may be the

21     wrong number and that what you really want to look at is 1D1601.

22             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  If that's the case, perhaps Madam Registrar could

24     show you --

25             MR. LUKIC:  Maybe I misspoke.  I think I called for 1D1606.


Page 21919

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And we wonder whether that's really the

 2     document.  Madam Registrar has a suspicion that you might want to see --

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Well --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  -- 1601.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  As always, Madam Registrar is right in these matters.

 6     I'm --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's look at that one and see whether you are happy

 8     to proceed.

 9             Madam Registrar, now is on the screen -- could you tell us, we

10     have now a statement of -- which mentions the name of Mr. Cvoro.  Could

11     you tell us what number that document is?

12             THE REGISTRAR:  This is document 1D1601.

13             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

15             MR. LUKIC:  And thank you to Madam Registrar.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  She assists the Defence in getting the right

17     document on the screen.

18             Please proceed.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

20        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Cvoro, I apologise.  A little confusion

21     occurred.  You can see the document on the screen, don't you?

22        A.   Yes, I do.

23        Q.   Did you see the statement before and did you sign it?

24        A.   Yes, I did see it before and I signed it.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at the last page, please.


Page 21920

 1        Q.   Mr. Cvoro, do you recognise your signature on this page?

 2        A.   Yes, this is my signature and the date when I signed the

 3     statement.

 4        Q.   Does this statement accurately reflect what you stated before the

 5     Defence team?

 6        A.   I said what I had to say.

 7        Q.   If I were to put the same questions to you today, would your

 8     answers be the same?

 9        A.   My answers would be the same.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honours, I would like to tender this statement

11     as well as the associated documents.  It's package 92 ter and we would

12     like to have it admitted.

13             MR. TRALDI:  Mr. President, first, good afternoon.

14             Second, just one brief objection regarding the statement.  I'm

15     informed there is a translation inconsistency in paragraph 2 as to

16     whether Mr. Cvoro was selected or elected to be president of the

17     Executive Board, and I wonder if that could be remedied before it's

18     admitted.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you have a look at the original, Mr. Lukic,

20     and see whether it is about election or selection.

21             MR. LUKIC:  Can we have witness statement, and we need page 2,

22     paragraph 2, in front of us.

23        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Cvoro, line 3.

24        A.   I was elected to that position because I offered the best plan of

25     work and I did not apply along party lines.


Page 21921

 1             MR. LUKIC:  I thank my learned friend for drawing my attention.

 2     I was not aware of this difference.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and I take it, then, in the original it's also

 4     about elections --

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Elections.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Now it's a minor thing.  Should we ask the revision

 7     of the translation or can we leave it to this as --

 8             MR. TRALDI:  With it having been corrected on the transcript,

 9     Mr. President --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

11             MR. TRALDI:  -- I withdraw my objection.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Madam Registrar, the statement -- let me see.

13     We have not yet had a number?

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D1601 receives number D492,

15     Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Then D492 is admitted into evidence.

17             Mr. Lukic, could we go through the associated exhibits.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.  One --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  First of all, Mr. Traldi, no objections against any

20     of the associated exhibits?

21             MR. TRALDI:  No, Mr. President.  I understand there is only one

22     that's not yet in evidence.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That would only be 1D02022.  Is that correct,

24     Mr. --

25             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, that's our associated exhibit and I --


Page 21922

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's the one and only.

 2             Madam Registrar, that document receives number?

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D02022 receives number D493,

 4     Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  D493 is admitted into evidence, and the other

 6     associated exhibit is already in evidence.

 7             Let's proceed.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.  I will read statement summary of this

 9     witness and it will be very short, even shorter than 35 lines.

10             Witness Zdravko Cvoro was president of the Executive Board of

11     Pale municipality.  He will testify about the situation in the

12     municipality of Pale in the relevant time-period.  The municipality of

13     Pale was overcome with trouble and distress of providing accommodations

14     and humanitarian aid to refugees.

15             Territorial Defence Staff controlled TO units and Crisis Staffs

16     were formed automatically for emergency situations.  The witness will

17     testify how crimes committed against Serbs by Muslims in other areas made

18     Muslim inhabitants of Pale fearful of retribution.

19             The president of Pale municipality and the witness actively tried

20     to get Bosnian Muslims to stay, and thus there was no forced expulsion of

21     Muslims.

22             That would be the summary.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  If you have any further --

24             MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  -- questions for the witness, then please go ahead.


Page 21923

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 2             Please can we have -- yes, we have paragraph 3 on our screen of

 3     Mr. Cvoro's statement, and I would have few questions in regard to this

 4     paragraph.

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Cvoro, what was the position of municipal

 6     authorities vis-ą-vis abandoned apartments?  What was their number in the

 7     municipality?

 8        A.   Since I was the president of the executive power, I ordered that

 9     each local commune and lower units had commissions set up.  Those

10     commissions would make lists of abandoned property.  In Pale, there were

11     over 2.000 weekend cottages because Pale was the lungs of Sarajevo.  It

12     is a small town which was a tourist destination.  It lived off tourism.

13     The climate and position of Pale lured many and inspired them to build

14     their weekend cottages there.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, if I may just ask a question.

16             Mr. Cvoro, do you have -- by any chance know by whom these

17     apartments had been abandoned?  I'm talking about ethnicity.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.  I'm talking about

19     Muslim apartments and Muslim properties.  And as for weekend cottages,

20     they belonged to Muslims, Serbs, and Croats alike, because a weekend

21     cottage is a holiday dwelling and many - including Muslims, Croats, and

22     Serbs - were not present in those weekend cottages at the time.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25        Q.   [Interpretation] Did you manage to protect the property of those


Page 21924

 1     people who had abandoned the municipality of Pale?

 2        A.   I take pride in the fact that all of the properties belonging to

 3     Muslims were mostly protected and preserved owing to the conscientious

 4     work of the commission.  Before they took possession of an apartment,

 5     they listed all the abandoned properties.  Whenever those houses were

 6     assigned to refugees and displaced persons, there was a record of the

 7     hand-over and they could only enter such properties under the control of

 8     municipal authorities.  I'm not saying that there were no abuses.  There

 9     were abuses, but we fought hard against those abuses.

10        Q.   Where did the first refugees arrive from in Pale?

11        A.   The first refugees arrived in Pale from the direction of

12     Sarajevo.  Those were Serbs.  They had abandoned their territories, the

13     places where they resided.  I was among the first who abandoned their

14     apartment and I arrived in Pale.  When I was making a decision as to what

15     to do, whether to stay or leave, I discussed the matter with my family

16     and we decided that I had better make a mistake than to be sorry for the

17     rest of my life.

18             Many of the Serbs who lived in Sarajevo fled to Pale.  And many

19     Serbs also came from the depth of the territory across Serb territories,

20     over mountains, and they arrived in Pale.  One of such groups of refugees

21     from Sarajevo consisted of the Serbian population from Pofalici.  Under

22     fire and facing skirmishes in the area, they fled, barefoot, without any

23     belongings, they travelled across the mountain, and I don't know how they

24     managed to get to Pale.  I was informed about them during the night.  I

25     arrived there and we opened the school for them where they were


Page 21925

 1     accommodated for the time being.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I'm looking at the clock.  It's time for

 3     a break.  Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.

 4             We'd like to see you back in 20 minutes, Mr. Cvoro.  You may

 5     follow the usher.

 6                           [The witness stands down]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  We take a break and we will resume at 20 minutes to

 8     2.00.

 9                           --- Recess taken at 1.22 p.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 1.41 p.m.

11                           [The witness takes the stand]

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   May we continue, Mr. Cvoro?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   You were talking about the refugees from Pofalici and that you

16     accommodated them at the school.  Where did you accommodate refugees

17     otherwise?

18        A.   Well, a large number of them were received by the inhabitants of

19     Pale; in particular, the elderly, the women, and the children.  They were

20     among the first.  And then, as there was a great number of refugees

21     arriving, we couldn't accommodate them all so we then forwarded some of

22     them to Serbia.  There were between five to ten buses with refugees that

23     we sent on to Serbia.  Sometimes even more.  But the Municipal Assembly

24     was in charge of the refugees.  So they would first gather together in

25     the big hall of the Municipal Assembly building, and we then brought them


Page 21926

 1     food and so on.

 2        Q.   I'm making a short pause because of interpretation.

 3             You said that five to ten buses left for Serbia, but in what

 4     time-period, as you didn't make any reference?

 5        A.   During the day.

 6        Q.   Did you prevent anyone from leaving?

 7        A.   None except for the conscripts, the recruits who had to respond

 8     to call-ups for the mobilisation of the TO and the army units.

 9        Q.   Did people of other ethnicities - that is to say, the Muslims and

10     the Croats - leave Pale at one point?

11        A.   Do you mean generally?

12        Q.   When they left.

13        A.   They left at their own request.

14        Q.   What about the Muslims who were recruits?  Could they leave?

15        A.   They stayed in Pale.  They simply boycotted the call-ups for

16     mobilisation.  Those who personally requested to leave, I don't know, but

17     it's possible that some even left for Serbia.

18        Q.   As for the Croats who lived in Pale, did they leave Pale in great

19     numbers?

20        A.   Most of the Croats stayed in Pale and joined the Army of

21     Republika Srpska.

22        Q.   All right.  You have told us in your statement about the position

23     to moving out, but we need another document.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] 1D2023, please.

25        Q.   You will soon see it on the screen in front of you.  It is a


Page 21927

 1     short document.  We can see that it's dated the 12th of June, 1992.  The

 2     president of the Municipal Assembly of Pale, Radislav Starcevic,

 3     addresses the secretary of the Pale SDS.  So that the party would adopt a

 4     general position on the moving out of the non-Serbian population from the

 5     territory of Pale municipality --

 6        A.   May I --

 7        Q.   Are you aware of this document?  Do you have a comment?

 8        A.   I'm aware of this document.  Radislav Starcevic was the president

 9     of the Municipal Assembly in Pale.  He was both a political figure and

10     the president of the legislative powers because the Assembly is the

11     highest legislative organ in the municipality, that is to say, of the

12     local authorities.  It's normal that he had to address somebody to have a

13     basis for convening the Assembly as problems arose with the Muslims

14     moving away.

15        Q.   Now let us briefly look at --

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] But I would tender this document.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D2023 receives number D494,

19     Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now let us look at another document,

22     1D2103, please.

23        Q.   Did you have an opportunity to see this document earlier?

24        A.   Yes, I have seen this document.  It's a document from the police

25     station in Pale and it followed from the Municipal Assembly decision from


Page 21928

 1     a session that was held on the 18th of June, 1992.

 2        Q.   What about this on the screen?

 3        A.   It's a request for a departure and for changing the place of

 4     residence.

 5        Q.   You mean it was addressed to the SUP in Pale?

 6        A.   No -- yes, addressed to the SUP in Pale, but it was the

 7     population, the Muslims from Pale who addressed this document to it.

 8        Q.   Did you see this document at the time or only during your

 9     preparations for testimony in the Karadzic case?

10        A.   Only during the proofing for my testimony in the Karadzic case.

11        Q.   At the time, did you learn from conversation with the colleagues

12     you worked with that such a request had been submitted and that there

13     were requests submitted by Muslims who wanted to leave the territory of

14     Pale municipality?

15        A.   Well, I just said a while ago that the decision or the

16     conclusion - I'm not sure how it was formulated - of the Assembly said

17     that the records about the departure of Muslims would be kept by the

18     public security station in Pale.  On the basis of that conclusion, this

19     request submitted by Muslims in which they asked to be allowed to depart

20     followed.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We would tender this document as

22     well.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D2103 receives number D495,

25     Your Honours.


Page 21929

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now if we could please have 1D2021,

 3     please.

 4        Q.   This document shows that SRNA, the Serbian press agency, reports

 5     on the 22nd of May about fighting in Renovica.  Did you know at the time

 6     that fighting broke out, and did you know that the Muslim forces were

 7     being armed in the territory of the Pale municipality?

 8        A.   Well, the MUP, that is to say, the police of the municipality,

 9     was discharging its duties at the order of the relevant ministry.  I as

10     the president of the Executive Committee or at the time -- when was that?

11     On the 22nd of June?

12        Q.   May.

13        A.   May.  Then I performed also the duty of the president of the

14     Crisis Staff.  I was informed of this activity, and I know that they went

15     in the direction of Renovica in order to disarm the Muslims.  On arrival,

16     shots were fired at them.  And I know that two policemen were killed,

17     whereas five or six - I don't know exactly - were wounded.  A conflict

18     broke out in Renovica then and the conflict never ended, and certain

19     lines were established on the ground in that area.

20        Q.   And what is the neighbouring area to Renovica, what is there?

21        A.   The local commune of Renovica comprises several villages,

22     settlements, and so on, and behind it is the territory of Gorazde, which

23     was held by the Muslim control throughout the war.  So behind this local

24     commune was Gorazde.  Also, a part of the local commune of Praca was

25     connected with the Muslim territory leading towards Gorazde.


Page 21930

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We would tender this document, too.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D2021 receives number D496,

 5     Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   At the time, was the Muslim municipality of Pale already

 9     proclaimed or not?

10        A.   I think not at the very beginning.  But much later, the Muslim

11     municipality of Pale was proclaimed, Pale Praca, and it exists to this

12     day.

13        Q.   What happened to the Serbs from these two places, from Renovica

14     and Praca?

15        A.   The Serbian population of Renovica immediately after the conflict

16     of the police and -- I don't know how to call them, army or whoever they

17     were, in Renovica, the rebels, the Muslims, the Serbs then left the

18     territory of Renovica, even though there hadn't been many.  90 per cent

19     of the population in the local community of Renovica were ethnic Muslims.

20     As for Praca, those who were at the separation line also left their homes

21     and withdrew towards Pale.

22        Q.   Thank you.  As for paragraph 16 of your statement, we don't have

23     to show it on the screen, but let me just ask you something:  How did the

24     Muslims leave Pale municipality?

25        A.   Generally speaking, I can say that they left at their own


Page 21931

 1     requests, in an organised manner, without any problems whatsoever.

 2        Q.   Did they take anything with them?

 3        A.   They took away all the moveable property.  They even took their

 4     motor vehicles.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi.

 6             MR. TRALDI:  Yes, Mr. President.  I think paragraph 16 deals with

 7     a specific group and so the witness may be somewhat confused about the

 8     questions he's being asked.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's -- paragraph 16 at least starts with

10     this truck -- trucks full of civilians coming from Bratunac.

11             MR. LUKIC:  I can clarify.  Thank you.  Thank you for my learned

12     friend's help.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   When you mentioned the organised departure of Muslims from Pale,

16     was that the general manner in which they departed?  I mean the Muslims

17     from Pale.

18        A.   Well, I said they left in an organised manner after the

19     Municipal Assembly decision and after they submitted requests to depart

20     from this territory, rather to change their place of residence.  So we

21     allowed them to do so.  They did not all leave in one single day.  It

22     depended on the means of transportation that we had at our disposal and

23     also security respects had to be taken into account, so they left in the

24     direction of Sarajevo successively.

25        Q.   All right.  Thank you.


Page 21932

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now 1D2024.  Could we just look at it

 2     briefly, please.

 3        Q.   We see in front of us a conclusion dated the 14th of July, 1992,

 4     Executive Committee of the Pale municipality.  Were you the chairman at

 5     the time?

 6        A.   Yes, yes, I was the chairman then.

 7        Q.   Of the Executive Committee?

 8        A.   Yes, of the Executive Committee.  We were not satisfied with the

 9     commissions that were on the ground and made lists of moveable and

10     immovable property.  So we reacted and we adopted this conclusion.

11        Q.   What did you actually want to achieve with this conclusion?

12        A.   We wanted to revise the previous work of the commissions as we

13     were not happy about it.  There had been some unlawful acts, some

14     property was misappropriated, and we then set up a revisory committee

15     whose duty was to review the situation on the ground, to question the

16     people who had made some abuses, and to take certain measures that were

17     appropriate.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we also see the last page of

19     the document, please.  That's page 2 in B/C/S.

20        Q.   It says down here "Chairman Zdravko Cvoro," but I don't know

21     whether this before it is "for"?

22        A.   Somebody signed that for me.  But I remember it.  I remember the

23     conclusion.

24        Q.   This is not your signature?

25        A.   No, it's not.


Page 21933

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have this document

 3     admitted?

 4             MR. TRALDI:  No objection, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D2024 receives number D497,

 7     Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Just give me one second.

10        Q.   [Interpretation] Just briefly, tell us in whose weekend cottage

11     you were in Pale and in what condition did you hand it over to the man

12     who was the owner?

13        A.   I said in my statement and I said during the trial of

14     Mr. Karadzic that I was in Hajrudin Somun's weekend cottage.  He was

15     either chef de cabinet or some advisor to Alija Izetbegovic.  At the very

16     outset - and he said that to me afterwards when we saw each other the

17     war - he heard that his weekend cottage had been burned down, destroyed,

18     that basically none of it was there anymore.  After the war he came and,

19     actually, he started working in the Ministry for Foreign Affairs, and

20     some colleagues from Pale worked there too.  He asked, "Do you know where

21     my weekend cottage is and who is there now?"  And they said that they

22     knew and that a man, Zdravko Cvoro, was there.  And he asked them for my

23     telephone number and he contacted me.

24             When he came to the weekend cottage, that was his property, of

25     course, when he looked around he burst into tears.  He said, "I cannot


Page 21934

 1     believe that everything is in its place."  And he said, "Zdravko, you're

 2     a better man than I am."  And I said, "Why, Hajrudin?"  And he said, "You

 3     kept everything for me and I don't know if I would have kept things for

 4     you that way."  And he said that he would thank me publicly through the

 5     media.  He did that and, among other things, he said what he said and

 6     finally he said, "It's not only that he kept everything for me, I even

 7     found the last newspaper that I read in that weekend cottage."

 8             I'm not saying this for my own sake.  I'm saying this on behalf

 9     of my fellow citizens who behaved in that way and in a similar way,

10     preserving the property of the Muslims in Pale.  All this property was

11     returned, preserved, and further on they did whatever they chose to do.

12        Q.   In what kind of condition did you find your apartment in

13     Sarajevo?

14        A.   Totally destroyed, without anything there.

15        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Cvoro.  That is all that I had for you for the

16     time being.

17        A.   Thank you.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

19             Mr. Traldi, are you ready to start your cross-examination of the

20     witness?

21             MR. TRALDI:  I am, Mr. President.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Mr. Cvoro, you'll now be cross-examined by

23     Mr. Traldi.  Mr. Traldi, and I see you are looking already at him, is

24     counsel for the Prosecution.

25                           Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi:


Page 21935

 1        Q.   Good afternoon, sir.

 2        A.   Good afternoon.

 3        Q.   Now, Mr. Cvoro, before we turn to some of the specific events

 4     that are addressed in your statement, I want to ask very briefly:  Have

 5     you spoken to anyone who has testified already in this case?

 6        A.   No, no, I don't know of anyone from this case that has anything

 7     to do with this kind of thing.

 8        Q.   Have you spoken to Dragan Maletic?

 9        A.   Dragan is my neighbour.  He lives 200 metres away from me, and I

10     haven't spoken to him at all about the case that has to do with this.

11        Q.   Setting aside the topic of any discussions you might have had

12     with him for a moment, my question is just:  Have you spoken to him since

13     you've arrived in The Hague about any topic at all?

14        A.   Well, we talked about some of our private matters.  He is

15     carrying out this training.  Then we talked about life and work in the

16     area of Pale.  As for his case or my case, they are not interlinked at

17     all.  I wasn't interested in his case and he wasn't interested in mine.

18        Q.   Have you spoken with anyone else who will be testifying in this

19     case at some later time?

20        A.   No, Mr. Prosecutor.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could I ask you:  You say he was not

22     interested in my case, I was not interested in his case.  What do you

23     know about his case so as to say that you are not interested in it?  What

24     does he know about your case, I take it your testimony, that he showed to

25     be not interested?  How can you do that without talking about it?


Page 21936

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, he was in the territory of

 2     Grbavica.  He did not even live in Pale during the war.  I assumed that,

 3     I mean, he was supposed to testify about that.  Also, he was not in the

 4     territory of Pale.  He is not familiar with that subject matter.  We did

 5     not discuss that.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  At the same time, not being interested in the other

 7     one's case suggests that you or he has expressed not being interested in

 8     it, isn't it?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, no.  No.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  You just assume that he's not interested in your

11     testimony?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, certainly.  He never even

13     asked me anything about that and I never asked him either.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I put a follow-up question to the witness.

16             Sir, I'm asking you now -- I'm asking you now.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, sorry.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You said to one of the first questions of

19     Mr. Traldi:

20             "No, I don't know of anyone from this case that has anything to

21     do with this kind of thing.  I don't know of anyone."

22             And then you confirmed that you have met Mr. Maletic.  Where did

23     you meet him?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you see, this is the way it

25     is:  I did not know Maletic at all until the Radovan Karadzic trial, and


Page 21937

 1     he's only 200 metres away from my house.  And we never saw each other

 2     anywhere.  We don't see each other in Pale.  I'm a pensioner.  He is an

 3     entrepreneur.  He's working.  We don't really have any contact as

 4     neighbours or any other kind of contacts so that --

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I stop you.  This was not my question.  Where

 6     did you meet him?  Did you meet him here in The Hague?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here in The Hague.  That's where we

 8     met.  He came before me.  We met at the hotel.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And at that time you knew that he is also here in

10     The Hague in order to testify as a witness; correct?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I saw him I assumed that he

12     came to testify.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And why did you say at the beginning:  "No, I

14     don't know of anyone from this case that has anything to do with this

15     kind of thing," when you were asked if you have spoken to anybody?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know whether that's what I

17     said.  I don't know anyone who is from my part.  Well, that's what I

18     meant.  I don't know what I said.  Or if I said it in that way.  From my

19     part of the testimony.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Traldi asked you:

21             "Have you spoken to anyone who has testified already in this

22     case?"

23             And then you said:

24             "No, no.  I don't know of anyone from this case ...," and so on.

25             I leave it to that, Mr. Traldi.


Page 21938

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  But at the same time it's a quarter past 2.00,

 2     Mr. Traldi.

 3             MR. TRALDI:  I have just one more question on this general topic.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's, then, this hear this one question and the

 5     answer and then adjourn.

 6             MR. TRALDI:

 7        Q.   Sir, you signed your statement on the 10th of May of this year.

 8     Where were you when you signed your statement?

 9        A.   In Pale.

10        Q.   And I should have been more specific, but what building in Pale

11     did you sign your statement in?

12        A.   The public security centre in Pale.

13             MR. TRALDI:  That was all I had on this topic, Mr. President.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Traldi.

15             We will adjourn for the day, but I would like to instruct you

16     first that you should not speak with anyone or communicate in whatever

17     other way with whomever about your testimony.  Testimony means testimony

18     you have given today but it also applies to testimony still to be given

19     next week, because we'd like to see you back on Monday morning at 9.30 in

20     this same courtroom.  You may follow the usher.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22                           [The witness stands down]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn for the day and will resume Monday, the

24     2nd of June, in this same courtroom, I, at 9.30 in the morning.

25             But you're on your feet, Mr. Lukic, so I don't know for sure


Page 21939

 1     whether we adjourn already.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  I don't want to interrupt you especially when you

 3     want to close the day, but you know that there is an issue about our

 4     fixed witness on Monday.  So you instructed me to ask you whether it

 5     would be possible, since this witness has to leave on Tuesday.  And I

 6     spoke with Mr. Cvoro.  He was not happy with the solution but he accepted

 7     that if that gentleman has to leave, he'll wait for his testimony to

 8     finish.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Have you -- apart from speaking to Mr. Cvoro, do you

10     also have conversations with the Prosecution?

11             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, the Defence has informed us and we have

12     no objection.  We are prepared to do Mr. Lalovic on Monday.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  The reasons are really so compelling that -- because

14     the Chamber is also not very happy with interrupted witness statements.

15             What is it that makes it so compelling?

16             MR. LUKIC:  The next witness got a new job and he cannot -- he

17     has been on that job only for 10 or 15 days, so he hardly got this short

18     period of time because he just started to work, and he's in a danger to

19     lose that job he was waiting for for more than a year.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber allows the change of the order of the

22     appearing of witnesses.

23             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  The present witness does not, at least not strongly

25     object, Prosecution does not object.


Page 21940

 1             Madam Registrar, could the Victims and Witness Section inform

 2     Mr. Cvoro that he is not expected at 9.30 in the morning.  Any chance

 3     that later in the morning he would --

 4             MR. LUKIC:  If possible, we would like to continue with Mr. Cvoro

 5     on Monday.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, if Mr. Traldi would like to --

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, depends on Mr. Traldi --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  -- if Mr. Lalovic is finished.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  So we expect him to take less than a whole

11     day in court.

12             MR. TRALDI:  I'd like that too, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We'll adjourn for the day and we'll start

14     hearing the next witness Monday morning and then after that continue with

15     Mr. Cvoro.  The date is still the same, 2nd of June.  Place is still the

16     same, courtroom I.  And the time is 9.30.  We stand adjourned.

17                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.20 p.m.,

18                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 2nd day

19                           of June, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.

20

21

22

23

24

25