Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 21941

 1                           Monday, 2 June 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 8             This is case IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             The Chamber was informed that both parties would like to raise a

11     preliminary matter.

12             The Prosecution first.  Mr. Groome.

13             MR. GROOME:  Good morning, Your Honours.

14             Mr. Lubura is scheduled to testify this week and he is the first

15     witness where we have formally made an application to tender his Karadzic

16     cross through 98 and 92 bis.  I was just wondering whether -- Mr. Jeremy

17     is here to answer any particular question the Chamber might have

18     regarding this particular witness and I'm certainly available to answer

19     any questions in general about the proposal, but it would be helpful, I

20     think, not only for us but probably for everyone involved in the trial to

21     have an indication of how we might best prepare for this examination.

22             Thank you.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Groome.  As a matter of fact, it was

24     on our agenda as well.  We are considering how to proceed because you

25     made proposals on the 19th of May on the tendering of -- tendering of

Page 21942

 1     portions of transcripts, and I think we have no definite answer yet.  We

 2     are still considering it.  So if you would -- we'll try to speed that up

 3     so that you are in a position that you know what to expect, when it comes

 4     to Mr. Lubura.

 5             MR. GROOME:  And related to that, Your Honour, if perhaps we

 6     could have just some clarification about the witness order for the week.

 7     I think there is some uncertainty in our mind about who the next witness

 8     is after Mr. Lalovic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I think we will continue with Mr. Cvoro.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Lukic.

12             MR. LUKIC:  I discussed the same issue with Mr. Jeremy and

13     Mr. Groome.

14             Mr. Cvoro is a bit longer witness, I think, and we have to finish

15     Mr.  Lubura on Tuesday, so we were thinking maybe it's wiser to start

16     Mr. Lubura immediately after Mr. Lalovic.  But I forgot to mention that

17     on Friday.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Because then it was about --

19             MR. LUKIC:  [Overlapping speakers] ... Lalovic.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  About Mr. Lalovic.

21             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Although I think reference was made to it once

23     on the Monday and the Tuesday, that's -- I have a recollection of that.

24     But it was not very explicit last Friday.

25             Then this means that it's even more urgent that we deal with the

Page 21943

 1     issue of -- of the evidence of Mr. Lubura, and we'll give it priority at

 2     this same morning still.

 3             MR. GROOME:  Thank you, Your Honours.  And just we did not

 4     anticipate -- we anticipate the earliest possible time we would have to

 5     cross-examine Mr. Lubura was tomorrow, so we wouldn't be prepared to go

 6     forward with the cross.  But I think if we proceed this way, it's

 7     unlikely that we would get to the cross anyway.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that is clear.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we proceed, Mr. Lukic, you -- I think it was

11     clear that the Defence opposed the -- the proposals made by the

12     Prosecution.  Is there anything you'd like to add to that in -- apart

13     from what you told us already in court.  I think you compared it with

14     what happened during the Prosecution's case and that you never did it,

15     whether true or not, I think that was then contradicted by the -- by the

16     Prosecution.

17             Is there anything you'd like to add to what you said last time on

18     the matter.  Not to repeat it, but ...

19             MR. LUKIC:  I just asked for Mr. Ivetic to be with us since he

20     was dealing with that issue.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

22             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, just perhaps some helpful information.

23     I'm not sure whether -- the Chamber doesn't seem to be aware that there

24     was a filing filed by the Defence last week.  I don't know --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I --

Page 21944

 1             MR. GROOME:  Oh, okay.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  As a matter of fact there was, and that was on my

 3     agenda.  As a matter of fact, that on my agenda was an announcement that

 4     if we would not have yet determined what to do with your proposals

 5     that --

 6             MR. GROOME:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  -- I should not make any further filings.  That was

 8     --

 9             MR. GROOME:  Okay.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  -- was on my agenda [overlapping speakers] ...

11             MR. GROOME:  Yeah, I just wanted to make sure that you were aware

12     of that, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yeah, we are aware of that.  And then if you would

14     like to add anything, Mr. Lukic, you should do it at the beginning of the

15     next session, because we are now urgently seized of the matter and

16     especially since the witness may already start his testimony later today,

17     then we don't have much time, and we would not like to leave Mr. Jeremy

18     without any guidance.

19             Nothing else.  Then --

20             MR. LUKIC:  Actually, as a matter of fact --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

22             MR. LUKIC:  -- I have one more.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Please.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honours we saw these days that our witnesses are

25     cross-examined on the issue whether they talk to each other or do not

Page 21945

 1     talk to each other.  I can inform you that apart from the VWS Section, we

 2     warn our witnesses not to talk with each other about the case.  The fact

 3     is that they are usually placed in the same hotel as a group, so they do

 4     so socialise with each other.  They claim to us that they do not talk

 5     about that -- the case.  The only one who told us that he discussed the

 6     case with another witness was Mr. Maletic, and we instructed him to

 7     report that to the Chamber.

 8             So we are uncertain how to proceed on this issue.  Should the

 9     witnesses be placed in different hotels; should they be told not to speak

10     to each other at all; or should they be told to talk about the case?

11             I see all Your Honours disagreeing with my last proposal and I

12     that I we all agree on that.  But we -- we do not know how to convince

13     both Your Honours and the Prosecution that they do not talk about the

14     case.  We would rather have some guidance how to prevent any suspicion.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, Mr. Lukic, to prevent suspicion always depends

16     on the factual circumstances.  We'll consider that.  Now, if are you not

17     in the same hotel but if you were on the same flight, then it may not

18     always be very effective, and it -- I think it's rather natural that if

19     you come to The Hague to testify that there's an inclination to speak

20     about the purpose for which you came to The Hague, whether it's in

21     general terms or whether that's in more specific terms.  Therefore,

22     we'll -- we'll consider it, what to do -- let me leave it to that.  We'll

23     consider whether we'll give you any guidance or not.  We'll further

24     discuss the matter and --

25             At the same time, I think that witnesses are bound not to speak

Page 21946

 1     about the case once they've -- once they've taken the stand and we always

 2     instruct them not that.  Even there whether that instruction is always

 3     followed, one never knows.  But in itself, to say, You cannot speak to

 4     someone else, that, of course, is not easy, that people could not have

 5     conversations privately on matters if they come from the same area or if

 6     they want to exchange their views on how nice The Hague is that's, of

 7     course, something the Chamber is not -- we're not mastering the personal

 8     relations of witnesses.

 9             But we'll consider it further.  But certainly at this moment

10     there's no instruction for the witnesses to talk about the case.  They

11     might even do it without such instructions.

12             MR. LUKIC:  But, if I may, Your Honour --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

14             MR. LUKIC:  -- what I noticed that after the witness starts with

15     his testimony, I noticed that he is not socialising at all with others.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  I don't know --

17             MR. LUKIC:  Especially with us.  So --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  No they -- of course, you shouldn't even come close

19     those witnesses --

20             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  -- once they have taken the stand.

22             MR. LUKIC:  But --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  And I'm not --

24             MR. LUKIC:  -- we enter the hallway, for example, in the hotel,

25     and he would be standing somewhere in the hallway.  He would return

Page 21947

 1     immediately and leave.  And I would see that is he not in the same

 2     company with others when we enter the hallway of the hotel.  So after --

 3     after he starts his testimony, I'm sure that they don't have any kind of

 4     contact.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, at least if I take it purely from a factual

 6     point of view, then you can affirm that, as long as they are within your

 7     sight, they are not seeking any contact with you, and they're not

 8     socialising with others.  What happens after they have turned, we do not

 9     know, you do not know.  Just from a factual point of view, I leave it to

10     that, and it strengthens your conviction that they are abiding what they

11     are supposed to do.  That's how I understand your words.

12             MR. LUKIC:  That's exactly what I wanted to try to refer to

13     Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's clear.  We'll consider whether or not

15     any further instruction -- any further guidance will be given.

16             Thank you, Mr. Lukic.  Nothing else?

17             Then if the Defence is ready to call its next witness, no

18     protective measures, Mr. Lukic.

19                           [Defence counsel confer]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, no protective measures for the next

21     witness?

22             MR. LUKIC:  No protective measures, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then could Mr. Lalovic be escorted into the

24     courtroom.

25                           [The witness entered court]

Page 21948

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Lalovic.  Before you give

 2     evidence, the Rules require that you make a solemn declaration.  May I

 3     invite you to make that solemn declaration, of which the text is now

 4     handed out to you by the usher.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

 6             I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

 7     and nothing but the truth.

 8                           WITNESS:  DRAGAN LALOVIC

 9                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated, Mr. Lalovic.

11             Mr. Lalovic, you will first be examined by Mr. Lukic.  Mr. Lukic

12     is counsel for Mr. Mladic, and you'll find him to your left.

13             Please proceed.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

15                           Examination by Mr. Lukic:

16        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Lalovic.

17        A.   Good morning.

18        Q.   First of all -- actually, let us call up 1D1650.  That should be

19     the statement of General Lalovic.

20             Do you see it on the screen in front of you?

21        A.   I do.

22        Q.   The signature at the bottom, is that your signature?

23        A.   Yes, it is my signature.

24        Q.   Let us take a look at the last page now.  Do you see that?

25        A.   I do.

Page 21949

 1        Q.   Is that your signature on the last page?

 2        A.   Yes, it is.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we take a look at the previous

 4     page, please, in both versions.  Let us please focus on paragraph 28.

 5     The Defence is going to ask for this paragraph to be deleted from the

 6     statement and I'm going to explain why.

 7             I showed Mr. Lalovic this document on the computer screen, and it

 8     had to be zoomed in 400 per cent, in order to see what is written there.

 9     We all know that the print is very fine on this chart.  However, here, in

10     The Hague, when we looked at it very carefully, Mr. Lalovic realised that

11     he is marked on that chart as the commander of the 1st Motorised Brigade,

12     and the impression that we both had when we watched it in the electronic

13     version was that General Lalovic was shown as part of the Main Staff in

14     1995.

15             So now we're going to ask for this paragraph 28 to be excluded

16     from the statement altogether because the organisational chart is correct

17     in this respect.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome.

19             MR. GROOME:  Just to say that would it be more appropriate for

20     General Lalovic to give his assessment of the chart and -- I mean, that's

21     the evidence that's being led rather than Mr. Lukic recounting the

22     evidence from a conversation over the weekend.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  At the same time, of course, it's Mr. Lukic

24     who can propose not to tender part of this statement.  That is, I would

25     say -- and if you strike it when -- I take it that you'll -- or it's just

Page 21950

 1     the last line?

 2             MR. LUKIC:  No, we'll strike the whole the paragraph.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  You strike the whole of the paragraph.  Then you're

 4     invited to upload a new version.

 5             And, Mr. Lalovic, your statement would not be any less true if we

 6     take out paragraph 28, would it?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It can be taken out.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome, is that -- that resolves the matter.

 9             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

11             Mr. Lukic, you're invited to upload a new version.  We have now

12     on the transcript that the witness signed this complete version but that

13     the witness says that striking paragraph 28 doesn't make it any less true

14     for the remaining paragraphs.

15             Please proceed.

16             MR. LUKIC:  And we have one more correction but only in English

17     version, and I was kindly warned by Mr. Groome this morning that there is

18     mistake in the translation of one number.  In -- in English version, we

19     need paragraph 19.  In both versions.

20             In the fourth line of paragraph 19, in English version, we can

21     see a date, 6th of April, 1993.  And it should read 1996, 6th of April,

22     1996.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes --

24             MR. LUKIC:  I think we -- [Overlapping speakers] ...

25             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ... you don't even need to be

Page 21951

 1     a trained translator to --

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, it's not logical the way it was now written.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The only thing -- matter is then whether it's

 4     inconsistent whether 1993 or 1996 is the right date is still to be

 5     considered.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  You could ask the witness.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Mr. Lalovic, please take a look at paragraph 19 --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  It cannot be 1993 or 1995 would be wrong.  That's

11     another possibility, but ...

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Could you please take a look at this sentence in paragraph 19:

14     "From the 26th of May 1995 to" what should is say there?  The 6th of

15     April of, what, 1996, is that correct?

16        A.   That's right.  1996, I served as the chief of military police

17     affairs at the security department of the Herzegovina Corps command.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  That's hereby corrected.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

20        Q.   [Interpretation] The statement corrected in this way, does it

21     faithfully portray what you said?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   What you said to me, you talked to me; right?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Thank you.  If I were to put the same questions to you today,

Page 21952

 1     would you basically respond in the same way?

 2        A.   I would.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honours, I would like to tender this statement

 4     as well the associated documents and we would like to have it admitted.

 5             MR. GROOME:  The Prosecution does not object to the admission of

 6     the statement.  However, we would seek to -- to -- to discuss and make

 7     submissions on the associated exhibits.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's start then with the statement itself.

 9             Madam Registrar, the statement would receive number.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D1650 receives number D498,

11     Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  D498 is marked for identification, and once the new

15     version where paragraph 28 is taken out is uploaded and 1993 corrected --

16     I would rather not do that.  That's clearly on the transcript at this

17     moment, and I'm always a bit hesitant to make smaller changes within a

18     document.  But it's clearly on the transcript that goes without saying

19     that 1996 is the right date.

20             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

21             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we first go to the associated exhibits, if you

23     take them one by one, Mr. Lukic, then.  The first one being?

24             MR. LUKIC:  1D2524.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  1D... let me just have a look.  On your list, I have

Page 21953

 1     got three associated exhibits or is it -- we have two lists.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  We have two different lists, perhaps.  I have one

 4     which is at the bottom dated the 2nd of May, 2014, but that's not the

 5     final one.

 6                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Okay.  1D2524, Mr. Groome.  Which is SFOR

 8     Sarajevo BH, letter to the minister, Mr. Lazarevic.  That's at least the

 9     description I see.

10             MR. GROOME:  Perhaps Mr. Lukic could indicate where in the

11     statement the witness talks about this, and maybe address the

12     particularities of the exhibit.  When I reviewed the exhibit, it was --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

15             MR. GROOME:  -- not apparent to me how it was associated.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Give me one second.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  It also does not appear in annex B to the motion,

18     the 92 ter motion, Mr. Lukic.

19             MR. LUKIC:  It's paragraph 23.  So -- it says:  "My appointment

20     to this duty is reflected in document 65 ter 1D2524, which also shows

21     that my appointment was approved by SFOR."

22             MR. GROOME:  If we look at the exhibit itself, there appears to

23     be, I think, four documents.  The first one appears to be correspondence

24     related to the assignment of Nikola Delic, the second one purports to be

25     from SFOR and includes a reference to the witness as well as other VRS

Page 21954

 1     officers and their assignments.  The letter appears to be a response to a

 2     letter from Minister Lazarevic dated the 12th of March 2001, but I note

 3     and draw the Chamber's attention the letter also seems to bear a fax

 4     stamp from either the 12th of May 2000 or 5th of December 2000 depending

 5     on whether the fax machine was set to the American standard or the

 6     European standard, and it does appear to be from a US general.

 7             The third document contains blanks and is purporting to be signed

 8     by Manojlo Milovanovic.  Again, it isn't clear what the relevance of the

 9     document is.  And finally there is a decree announcing the retirement of

10     General Milovanovic.  And again, I query how this is relevant or

11     associated to the statement.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, may I take it that you want to sort out

13     this or?

14             MR. LUKIC:  We can sort this out, but we included that document

15     as we found it uploaded.  I was not sure whether I should break down that

16     documents uploaded by the Prosecution, and I take only one page from

17     those documents.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I suggest that you sit together with

19     Mr. Groome during the break, try to find out how and what is the

20     relevance, that you then isolate that from other irrelevant materials,

21     and that you come back to us to see whether part of the document for

22     which we find the ERN number in paragraph 23, whether that still is to be

23     tendered or not.

24             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, it may also assist Mr. Lukic and the

25     Chamber to note that the Prosecution does not challenge any of the

Page 21955

 1     assignments that General Lalovic had during his career, so I'm not sure

 2     that any of it would be important.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  His approval by SFOR, I don't know what the

 4     relevance of that is and I don't know whether SFOR, what kind of an

 5     approval that is.  But, of course, we do not look into the documents

 6     unless they come to us and once they are tendered.

 7             Mr. Lukic, please reconsider in the absence of any challenge to

 8     the appointments, and if you still think you need some, please sit

 9     together with Mr. Groome and see what you can leave out and what still

10     remains relevant in this respect.

11             Yes.  That was about 1D2524.

12             Next one, Mr. Groome -- Mr. Lukic.

13             MR. LUKIC:  Next one was uploaded.  Also it was a huge document.

14     Actually, not huge, but probably almost 100 pages.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Large.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.  And now we have this number with A which

17     actually deals only with one page.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  That 1D2525a.  Is that --

19             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes?

21             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.  That's actually two-page document.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Command of the 1st -- combat report extract of

23     1D2025.

24             MR. LUKIC:  And reference is in paragraph 29 of the statement of

25     this witness.

Page 21956

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome.

 2             MR. GROOME:  Again, Your Honour, when I read the document I did

 3     not see any reference to any location that was directly relevant to these

 4     proceedings so I -- again I question the relevance of this document,

 5     although I do accept that it -- it is mentioned by the witness in the

 6     statement.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Could we scroll down to paragraph 29 in the

 8     statement, please.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

10             MR. LUKIC:  And the document is signed by the witness.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Document is signed by the witness.

12             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  That does not necessarily make it relevant, but --

14     and we have --

15             MR. GROOME:  Can I note that the copy that's uploaded in e-court

16     does not appear to have the signature of the witness that I can see.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah, it's typed.  Typewritten name.  I'm sorry, my

18     mistake.  Because it's a cable document, obviously.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I see there's an information report sent in

20     relation to this on the 1st of June.  But that is not about ... no,

21     that's about 28.

22             Relevance, Mr. Lukic --

23             MR. LUKIC:  [Overlapping speakers].

24             JUDGE ORIE:  -- apart from being signed by the witnesses.  I

25     mean, not everything that is signed by a witness makes it relevant for

Page 21957

 1     the case.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  This document further elaborates the claim from the

 3     paragraph 29.  And we -- here we have that the witness in this

 4     paragraph claims that Muslim forces were much better equipped than the

 5     VRS and that they were taking the initiative in the field.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  And from this document, it is obvious that actually

 8     at that time offensives were launched and attacks and obvious that

 9     initiative in 1994 was on Muslim forces.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome.

11             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, again I don't see the direct relevance

12     but I'll defer to the Chamber.  If the Chamber thinks that it can be

13     assists by the document, then I certainly have no strong objection to its

14     admission.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I understand the hesitation by the

16     Prosecution as it not being part of their case, that one party was

17     stronger or that in combat one party took an initiative or not, that

18     that's not central in their case.

19             Is that well understood, Mr. Groome.

20             MR. GROOME:  It's even more specific than that, Your Honour.  The

21     locations referred to in this engagement, the only marginal relevance is

22     that a road between Sarajevo and Srbinje was -- there was an effort to

23     cut it off.  But as far as I can tell, nothing else seems to be directly

24     relevant to the matters being discussed here.

25             MR. LUKIC:  It's very important X and Muslim forces were actually

Page 21958

 1     launching offensives from Sarajevo to go through these areas and to

 2     connect with Gorazde and --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  It will be admitted.

 4             Madam Registrar, 1D02525a will receive number.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Number D499 Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  D499 is admitted into evidence.

 7             Any -- that's all, Mr. Lukic.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  That's all, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  That's all.  Then if you have any further questions

10     for the witness, please proceed.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.  I'll just read very short statement

12     summary.

13             As a professional soldier, General Lalovic served in Zagreb,

14     Croatia, for 15 years.  He left Croatia in 1991 and relocated to Bosnia

15     and Herzegovina.

16             On the eve of the armed conflict, Mr. Lalovic was situated in

17     Sarajevo, and he witnessed the events that took place in the city in

18     spring of 1992.  He will testify about the blockades of roads and the JNA

19     facilities and barracks.  He will describe the attacks on the JNA

20     vehicles and personnel.

21             Mr. Lalovic will speak about the personnel of Muslim ethnicity

22     leaving the ranks of the JNA.

23             The witness will testify about his encounters with

24     General Ratko Mladic.

25             And General Lalovic will also describe his post-war professional

Page 21959

 1     engagement.

 2             And that was a short summary.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  If you have any further questions, you

 4     may proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.  I have just a few questions

 6     for General Lalovic.

 7        Q.   Good morning, once again, General.  Let me ask you:  Do you know

 8     when roadblocks, the barricades started to be set up in Sarajevo and who

 9     did it first?

10        A.   The first barricades in Sarajevo were set up on the 1st of March,

11     1992, by Muslims.  The purpose was to limit movement in the city of

12     Sarajevo and to create disruption.  The barricades were manned by armed

13     civilians who stopped cars and passers-by sought to see their documents.

14     Sometimes they took away IDs from individuals and prohibited further

15     movement.  Considering that chaos began to reign, the discussion was made

16     to form joint patrols from members of the 605th Motorised Regiment, of

17     which I was a member, and members of the special unit of the republic

18     SUP, secretariat for internal affairs of Bosnia Herzegovina.  The

19     commander of that unit was Dragan Dikic and one of his assistants was

20     Zoran Cegar.  These patrols were set up and they acted jointly in the

21     territory of the city of Sarajevo and around it.  They disarmed the armed

22     civilians on barricades.  They prevented certain features, especially

23     military installations, from being surrounded and blocked and enabled

24     movement in the city of Sarajevo and around it.  That lasted until the

25     month of April.  When interethnic relations became more difficult, then

Page 21960

 1     tensions were heightened in the MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 2        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Were there any killings in Sarajevo against JNA members in

 6     April 1992?

 7        A.   In my statement, I've already said that the first mortar attack

 8     against the Command of the 2nd Military District was on the

 9     22nd April 1992.  I can't remember the exact date now, but three days

10     after that attack, close to the Military District Command, two unarmed

11     soldiers from the command of the garrison were killed in a cafe.  Those

12     soldiers had stopped at that cafe to have a drink because it was close,

13     and that's where they were killed.

14        Q.   At the time, did you witness any propaganda against the JNA; and

15     which media spread that propaganda?

16        A.   As interethnic tensions became worse and the sentiment against

17     the JNA became negative, psychological propaganda increased, and negative

18     information was increasingly spread against the JNA.  The culmination was

19     on the 22nd April 1992 with that mortar attack against the

20     Military District Command and the attack on a column of soldiers in

21     Dobrovoljacka Street.  At the moment of that mortar attack, Radio

22     Television Sarajevo, who was at the forefront of these activities,

23     stopped the regular broadcast and informed citizenry that the

24     Yugoslav People's Army had opened artillery fire against the Presidency

25     of Bosnia-Herzegovina which, of course, wasn't true.  The same happened

Page 21961

 1     on the 3rd of May when a column of JNA troops were attacked in

 2     Dobrovoljacka Street.

 3        Q.   During those days was there an infantry attack against the

 4     Command of the 2nd Military District, were the guards attacked?

 5        A.   Again, I can't remember the exact date in April, but a civilian

 6     motor vehicle was passing by the command, and somebody in that car opened

 7     fire at the guard standing outside the command.  The guard was wounded,

 8     and the rest of the guards opened fire at the vehicle, on which occasion

 9     three persons were killed.

10             When the on-site investigation was conducted, it was found that

11     the passengers in that car were in civilian clothes.  They were armed,

12     they had a combat set of ammunition, and even explosives.

13             MR. LUKIC:  Can we have paragraphs -- first the statement of

14     Mr. Lalovic, D498, MFI'd.  And we need paragraphs 13, 14, and 15 on the

15     screen.

16             I don't know about your screens, but I have nothing on mine.

17             Now --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Now have something on our screens.

19             MR. LUKIC:  In English version, we can see all three paragraphs.

20     In B/C/S, that's enough.  You don't have to move to another page.

21        Q.   [Interpretation] So in these paragraphs, you describe the attack

22     against the JNA hall in Sarajevo.

23             Could you tell us if any members of the JNA tried to lift the

24     blockade off Colonel Suput and his group?

25        A.   When Colonel Suput with his group was ambushed and fire was

Page 21962

 1     opened on them, and when they organised a defence and couldn't move

 2     further towards the JNA hall, which they wanted to unblock, the commander

 3     of the sabotage detachment, Captain First Class Marko Labudovic who was

 4     at the military hospital in Sarajevo with part of his detachment, set out

 5     to help Colonel Suput, unblock him, and then continue jointly to lift the

 6     blockade of the JNA hall.  Captain Labudovic set out with two Pinzgauers

 7     with 20 men in them.  When they got to Skenderija, they were ambushed

 8     from all sides and strong infantry fire was opened on them, and they

 9     suffered huge losses.  Four officers were killed; seven soldiers were

10     killed; and six were wounded.  Only three soldiers managed to get away by

11     the skin of their teeth with the help of a passer-by, and they were not

12     hurt.

13             The Muslim forces used street-car wires to burn the bodies of the

14     dead and even the wounded soldiers.  Captain Marko Labudovic was lying

15     there until the evening seriously wounded and bleeding and dying.  The

16     Muslim forces did not allow anyone to approach him and assist him.

17             Towards the evening, the Muslims were passing by in their

18     vehicles and drove over Captain Labudovic's dead body, and that was shown

19     on television.  Four officers were killed there:  Captain First Class

20     Marko Labudovic, Lieutenant Obrad Gvozdenovic, Lieutenant Ivan Cvetkovic,

21     and Lieutenant Nihad Kastrati.

22        Q.   Nihad Kastrati is which ethnicity?

23        A.   Albanian.  And he remained in the unit until the end, until he

24     got killed.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, the Chamber misses the exact relevance of

Page 21963

 1     this.  The witness describes which outright could be considered as awful

 2     behaviour by -- apparently by the Muslims.  But the relevance for this

 3     case -- and I do not know to what extent it is contested by the

 4     Prosecution that Muslim forces or paramilitary forces or sometimes,

 5     perhaps, even civilians may have behaved in a totally unacceptable way

 6     but that doesn't make it directly relevant for the case.

 7             Mr. Groome.

 8             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.  Without commenting on whether or

 9     not I agree with what General Lalovic has just given evidence about, it's

10     certainly our position that this is not relevant to the case.

11     General Mladic is not charged with starting the war, just simply his

12     conduct during it.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

14             MR. LUKIC:  But we have testimony of Expert Witness Donja who

15     testified on Sarajevo, and his complete testimony is -- is in direct

16     contradiction with this testimony of General Lalovic.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then that we'll have to review then exactly

18     the -- to what extent it clearly contradicts whether Donja's report

19     excludes these events to have happened or similar events to have

20     happened.  But please proceed at this moment.  I just want to let you

21     know that for the core of the case against Mr. Mladic -- Mr. Mladic, who

22     is by the way is invited to remain seated.

23             Mr. Mladic, you know you should be seated.  You can consult with

24     counsel even in a seated passion.  And we are close to a break anyhow and

25     then you'll have ample opportunity to consult.

Page 21964

 1             But please proceed, meanwhile, Mr. Lukic.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] General --

 4             THE ACCUSED:  [Microphone not activated]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  You can -- at this moment, if there is any urgent

 6     matter, you can speak with Mr. Stojanovic, Mr. Mladic, and in five

 7     minutes you have ample opportunity to further consult with Mr. Lukic.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

10        Q.   [Interpretation] In the course of those two days, the 2nd and 3rd

11     May, 1992, how many members of the army were killed?

12        A.   On the 2nd and 3rd May 1992 from the 65th Motorised Regiment, 14

13     soldiers and officers were killed and ten members were wounded.  In total

14     in the command of the 2nd Military District, 42 persons were killed and

15     over 20 wounded.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Just one more thing briefly.  Do you know anything

17     about the attack in Dobrovoljacka Street?  That's my last question.

18        A.   On the 2nd and 3rd May, I happened to be in Lukavica in the

19     Slobodan Princip Seljo barracks.  Part of the column that had been

20     attacked arrived at those barracks; officer, soldiers, and civilians in

21     vehicles, and I saw them with my own eyes.  When they arrived and got out

22     of the vehicles, they were half naked, barefoot, sometimes only in

23     underwear, disarmed.  They were crying, falling to the ground, knocked

24     their heads against walls and trees, in shock from the mistreatment and

25     the shooting that had happened in the Dobrovoljacka Street and which they

Page 21965

 1     survived.  Those people were saying that the Muslim paramilitaries took

 2     them out of the vehicles, lined them up, disarmed them, made them

 3     undress, made them strip, took away their personal belongings, anything

 4     they had on them, and then ordered them to lie down on the metalled road.

 5     And then one of the Muslims would show up and open volleys of automatic

 6     fire at them.  Some were killed.  Some were wounded.  Some, the lucky

 7     ones, survived.  That's how Colonel Bosko Mihajlovic, Colonel Mira Sokic,

 8     were killed.  Colonel Ratko Katalina [phoen] was wounded, as well as

 9     Colonel Josip Ivanovic.  I know that in that column Colonel Radulovic,

10     head of the medical service of the 2nd Military District, was killed.  He

11     was in an ambulance, a marked ambulance, and when he opened the door to

12     speak to those people who were doing that, people in civilian clothes but

13     armed, he opened the door of the vehicle and told them, People, what are

14     you doing?  And one of the members of the Muslim forces opened fire and

15     killed him on the spot without a word.

16        Q.   Thank you, General.  That's all we had in direct examination.

17     Thank you.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

19             We'll take the break first, Mr. Groome.  Again, the time

20     indicated for cross-examination was two and a half hours.

21             MR. GROOME:  That's correct, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll take the break but not until after the

23     witness has been escorted out of the courtroom.

24             We'd like to see you back in 20 minutes.

25             And we will resume at ten minutes to 11.00.

Page 21966

 1                           --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

 2                           [The witness stands down]

 3                           --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we start the cross-examination of the

 5     witness, yes, Mr. Ivetic is here.  I think the last -- I would say

 6     extensive submission the Chamber received is that of the 26th of May,

 7     2014.

 8             Mr. Ivetic, since I did not know exactly whether the Prosecution

 9     wants to add anything, I at least gave an opportunity to the Defence to

10     further express itself.  There's no need to repeat that because that's --

11     well, I wouldn't say a lengthy filing but at least it's eight pages.  If

12     we leave out the first and the last one, it's still six pages of

13     substantial comment dealing with Aleksovski, et cetera.

14             Is there anything you'd like to add?

15             MR. IVETIC:  No, Your Honours, except to point out in addition to

16     that filing that Your Honours mentioned, we also made significant

17     reference to the same issue in one confidential reply of 5 May 2014 and

18     one public reply of 15 May 2014 in relation to Rule 92 ter submissions of

19     the Prosecution.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  That's -- to the extent we have not looked at

21     that yet, and I must admit that my recollection doesn't serve me

22     immediately, but I think, as a matter of fact, in discussing and

23     preparing a decision that we paid attention to that but we'll verify it

24     and we'll then give our decision preferably still today.

25             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, if I could be allowed just to make one

Page 21967

 1     observation.  We're now I believe six or seven witnesses into the Defence

 2     case and there have been occasions where, I think, that if this procedure

 3     had been followed that the cross-examination would have been shorter, so

 4     I think having coming this far I do think there will be some tangible

 5     benefits to be achieved if the Chamber were inclined to grant this

 6     relief.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  I can, and there my recollection serves me well,

 8     that the element of timing certainly is being considered by the Chamber

 9     at this moment, whether it saves time or not.

10             If there's nothing else, Mr. Ivetic, don't feel obliged to stay

11     with us, although it is always a pleasure to you have in court.

12             Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

13                           [The witness takes the stand]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lalovic, you'll now be cross-examined by

15     Mr. Groome.  Mr. Groome is counsel for the Prosecution, and you'll find

16     him to your right.

17             Mr. Groome, you may proceed.

18                           Cross-examination by Mr. Groome:

19        Q.   Good morning, General Lalovic.

20        A.   Good morning.

21        Q.   I think it would be fairer to you and more efficient in my

22     examination of you if you had a copy of your statement in hard copy

23     before you.

24             MR. GROOME:  So unless there's an objection from the Defence and

25     the Chamber permits, I'd ask that the witness be a handed a clean copy of

Page 21968

 1     his statement.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, could the usher assist.

 3             MR. GROOME:

 4        Q.   Sir, what's your current occupation?

 5        A.   Currently I am a retiree.

 6        Q.   And in addition to receiving a pension, do you engage in any paid

 7     work at the moment?

 8        A.   I do.  Twenty days ago I began working for a company near the

 9     town of Brus in Serbia in the village of Plese.  There's a refrigeration

10     plant for fruit processing there, and I am now managing that plant.

11        Q.   I want to now just make sure that I understand in general terms

12     your statement, and that's one of the reasons why I've provided with you

13     a hard copy.

14             The first eight paragraphs of your statement relate to your

15     military career; correct?

16        A.   Correct.

17        Q.   And paragraphs 9 to 17 concern events leading up to the war;

18     correct?

19        A.   Correct.

20        Q.   Paragraphs 18 and 19, they return to your military career;

21     correct?

22        A.   Correct.

23        Q.   Now, we see at paragraphs 20 and 21, you deal with interaction

24     that you personally had with General Mladic while he was chief of the

25     Main Staff; correct?

Page 21969

 1        A.   Correct.

 2        Q.   And then at paragraphs 22 to 25, we return to a discussion of

 3     your career; correct?

 4        A.   That's right.

 5        Q.   Now, at paragraphs 26 to 27, you deal with matters related to

 6     General Mladic while he was a fugitive; is that correct?

 7        A.   General Mladic at the time I discussed in these paragraphs was

 8     not a fugitive, as far as I know.  I don't know what your interpretation

 9     is though.

10        Q.   We'll deal with that in a few moments.  But it certainly is about

11     your interaction with General Mladic or matters related to him after the

12     conflict was over.

13             In order for the transcript to record your answer, you have to

14     actually say something.

15        A.   Precisely, as you put it.  In this part the paragraphs 25 and 26

16     and what I said therein pertains to my contacts with General Mladic after

17     the war.

18        Q.   Okay.  Sir --

19        A.   I did say, though, that General Mladic was not a fugitive at the

20     time, although you used that term.  I was not aware of him being a

21     fugitive at the time.

22        Q.   Okay.  I'll talk about that in a few minutes but I do simply want

23     to make sure I understand the general import of your statement.

24             Now, paragraph 28 has been now struck from your -- your evidence.

25     And finally, paragraph 29 relates to document D499 in evidence, and

Page 21970

 1     you -- would you agree with me that deals primarily with matters related

 2     to the Herzegovina Corps?

 3        A.   That's right.

 4        Q.   So let's go back now to the two paragraphs where you give

 5     evidence about General Mladic during the conflict.  I want to first draw

 6     your attention to paragraph 20.

 7             Now, the main point of paragraph 20, as I read it, is that

 8     General Mladic was aware of the international laws applicable during the

 9     war and that he emphasised that you and others should act in accordance

10     with them.  Is that a correct summary of that paragraph?

11        A.   Yes, it is.

12        Q.   In your view was General Mladic fully versed in the laws of war?

13        A.   I can't say with any certainty that he was fully versed.  But

14     having taken the courses he had, taking into account his rank, and the

15     position he was at, I would be inclined to believe that he was pretty

16     familiar with it.

17        Q.   And would you be inclined to believe that he was pretty familiar

18     with the Geneva Conventions?

19        A.   I believe he was.

20        Q.   And would you be inclined to believe that he was familiar with

21     the prohibitions against genocide?

22        A.   I believe so.

23        Q.   And how about the prohibitions against crimes against humanity?

24        A.   I believe he was.  You've asked me that already and I answered.

25     I can't say to what extent and it wasn't up to me to check, but this is

Page 21971

 1     merely a belief of mine.

 2        Q.   Now, paragraph 21 states that you had the opportunity or an

 3     opportunity to see Mladic in Kalinovik during Lukavac 93 operation;

 4     correct?

 5        A.   That's right.

 6        Q.   And so that we are clear, was this in a professional context or

 7     in a social context?

 8        A.   We met for the first time in Trnovo when it was liberated.  It

 9     was a professional encounter.  Later, we met several other times in that

10     professional capacity, given the fact that at the time we did not have

11     time to socialise.

12        Q.   Okay.  Now when you gave your statement to the Defence, you

13     intended to provide all of the evidence that you believe was relevant to

14     the Chamber's consideration of this case; correct?

15        A.   That is correct.

16        Q.   Is there any information now that you're here that you think now

17     is relevant but you'd like an opportunity to provide that evidence to the

18     Chamber, or have you provided all of your relevant evidence?

19        A.   I have no other information.  I think I said all I knew.

20        Q.   Now, during the conflict you were in the Herzegovina Corps;

21     correct?

22        A.   Yes.  My brigade carried out combat operations in the area of the

23     Herzegovina Corps on its right flank, where the Herzegovina and the

24     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps met.

25        Q.   Now, do you accept that you did not witness - that is, personally

Page 21972

 1     see or hear events - directly related to the crimes charged in the

 2     indictment against General Mladic?

 3        A.   I am not aware of any details of the indictment, but to my

 4     knowledge in terms of how familiar I am with that indictment, I can say

 5     that I was not directly involved in those events.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Now, General Lalovic, let's go back to paragraph 21, and

 7     you state that you had an opportunity to see General Mladic --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. -- first of all, I think the witness rightly

 9     commented to your question that he may not be familiar with all the

10     details of the indictment, and, Mr. Groome, I think that appropriately

11     would have to have been asked to him first.  And, second, I think your

12     question was about knowledge of event, whereas, the answer of the witness

13     was about involvement in events, which is not the same.  So if you'd

14     please seek to clarify that, not necessarily in one or two questions but

15     keep that in mind.

16             MR. GROOME:

17        Q.   Let me take His Honour's counsel and ask you more particular

18     questions:  Are you aware that the indictment charges General Mladic with

19     crimes related to Srebrenica in 1995.  Have you heard my question?

20        A.   I have.  I am aware that he was charged with that, but that's all

21     all I now.

22        Q.   You weren't present in Srebrenica in July 1995, were you?

23        A.   No, I was not.

24        Q.   He is also charged with crimes arising out of the siege of

25     Sarajevo.  Are you aware of that?

Page 21973

 1        A.   I am aware of that.

 2        Q.   During the period of the conflict, were you at the time assigned

 3     to duty in the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps?

 4        A.   No, I was not.

 5        Q.   And then, finally, he is charged with some crimes that occurred

 6     in the municipalities in 1992 through 1995, mostly under -- in the area

 7     of responsibility of the 1st Krajina Corps.  Were you ever assigned to

 8     duty in the 1st Krajina Corps?

 9        A.   No, I wasn't.

10        Q.   Do you have any personal knowledge about events that transpired

11     in the area of responsibility of the 1st Krajina Corps?

12        A.   No, I have no personal knowledge.

13        Q.   Now, if we can now turn to paragraph 21, where you say had you an

14     opportunity to see General Mladic.  My first question is, and -- I'm

15     sorry, that you saw him during Lukavac 93.  Did you see him in the

16     forward command post in Kalinovik?

17        A.   It was a forward command post of the Herzegovina Corps.  The

18     corps command commanded its units from that position, taking part in the

19     Lukavac 93 operation.  General Lukavac came there to meet with

20     General Grubac, where General Grubac briefed him on the situation.  That

21     is when I had the occasion to encounter General Mladic.

22        Q.   I'm going to read you how the English record has recorded your

23     answer and ask you whether it's correct.

24             You have been recorded as saying General Lukavac came there to

25     meet with General Grubac.  Did you intend that to be your evidence?

Page 21974

 1        A.   General who?

 2        Q.   Let me ask it this way:  Who was the general that came to meet

 3     General Grubac?  Was it General Mladic?

 4        A.   Yes, it was General Mladic, commander of the Main Staff of the

 5     VRS.

 6        Q.   Okay.

 7        A.   He came to the forward command post.

 8        Q.   Now, Operation Lukavac 93 was a remember complex operation but it

 9     is one that the Chamber should have the benefit of your evidence about.

10     What I'm going to do is read you three short paragraphs summarising the

11     operation, and I'll ask you whether you agree with what I've said.  At

12     the end of reading that summary of the operation, I'll give you an

13     opportunity to add any additional information you wish.

14             Can we agree to proceed in that fashion?  Again, I need you to

15     answer for it to be recorded in the transcript.

16        A.   Please go ahead.  Read it out.

17        Q.   Okay.

18             "Operation Lukavac 93 lasted between the beginning of July 1993

19     to mid-August 1993.  The primary objectives of this operation were: One,

20     to directly link the Herzegovina region to the rest of Republika Srpska;

21     and two, to sever the Muslim supply route to Gorazde.  The VRS began its

22     offensive on the 2nd to 3rd of July when Tactical Group Kalinovik

23     attacked towards the Rogoj pass from the south," and that's R-o-g-o-j.

24     "VRS forces broke through ABiH defences to seize the Rogoj pass and the

25     town of Trnovo eight days later."

Page 21975

 1             Do you agree with my summary of the operation so far?

 2        A.   In principle, I agree.  However, the forces of the VRS did not

 3     occupy or take Trnovo but liberated it.  Before the war, Trnovo had been

 4     more a Serb than a Muslim town.  That is why I say that they liberated

 5     it.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Let me continue.

 7             "After seizing Trnovo, VRS troops then advanced west towards

 8     Mount Igman and Mount Bjelasnica.  VRS forces also advanced to the centre

 9     of the Bosnian government's Gorazde supply route and thus linked the

10     Herzegovina Corps and the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.  The Army of

11     Bosnia-Herzegovina was pushed east into Gorazde enclave and the VRS

12     succeeded in destroying the supply corridor to Gorazde.  The VRS then

13     tried to destroy the supply line into Sarajevo over Mounts Igman and

14     Bjelasnica."

15             Do you agree with my summary of that portion of the operation?

16        A.   I agree with that as well.  Although, I don't know whether there

17     may have been an interpretation mistake when I heard that it was the goal

18     of the VRS to destroy the supply line from Igman to Sarajevo.  The VRS

19     had -- had as its objective to cut off that supply line rather than

20     destroy it.

21        Q.   Okay.

22        A.   If I may.  These objectives were set by a superior command.  I am

23     aware of them, but there was no need for me to know them necessarily.  I

24     don't know what is the importance of me agreeing or disagreeing.  If my

25     superior command during the war set an objective and issued a task to me,

Page 21976

 1     it was my obligation to see it through and to achieve the objective set.

 2     However, you have been referring to some superior command objectives

 3     which I needn't necessarily know as the brigade commander.

 4        Q.   Okay.  I want to read the last portion of the operation and once

 5     again ask you to comment on whether you agree with my recounting of it.

 6              "On the 31st of July, the VRS launched a surprise attack on the

 7     summit of Mount Bjelasnica.  VRS troops advanced about 10 kilometres up

 8     Bjelasnica and Igman over the next four days.  This succeeded in cutting

 9     the last Bosnian government supply line into Sarajevo.  The VRS held

10     these positions until it withdrew under pressure from the international

11     community and threats of action by NATO.  The VRS withdrew from

12     Mount Igman by the 19th of August, 1993."

13             Do you agree with that portion of my summary of the operation?

14        A.   Please read out the first part again concerning the 31st of July.

15     What happened then?  I didn't pick it up.

16        Q.   Okay.  I'll read that first sentence:

17             "On 31 July, the VRS launched a surprise attack on the summit of

18     Mount Bjelasnica."

19        A.   I don't know how it could have been on the 31st of July to attack

20     Bjelasnica if there was combat along that axis as of the 2nd of July.

21     When the attack on Rogoj began on the 2nd of July, that is when

22     operations began and Trnovo and Rogoj were liberated.  Our forces went

23     further afield to Bjelasnica.  In my understanding, it couldn't have been

24     a surprise attack on Bjelasnica.  I would call it something that would

25     have been expected.  You asked me whether I agree and I'm trying to

Page 21977

 1     answer in a profession way.  To me, professionally speaking, it could

 2     have not been a surprise attack on Bjelasnica.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Sir --

 4        A.   It was something to be expected.  I have no knowledge about the

 5     latter part of what you read out.  As to whether the supply line to

 6     Sarajevo was completely cut and when the forces were pulled from Igman

 7     and why.  I have no such knowledge.

 8        Q.   So, sir, what is your best recollection as to when the VRS

 9     launched an attack on the summit of Mount Bjelasnica?

10        A.   You said when it was.  I don't know when exactly it was.  I don't

11     recall the date.  I just told that you it was no surprise attack.  It was

12     to be expected.  As a soldier to me --

13        Q.   Sir, there's no --

14        A.   -- there's a great it difference.

15        Q.   -- need to repeat your answer.  You've already told us that you

16     don't believe it was a surprise particular.

17             MR. GROOME:  Can we please see 65 ter 30647 on our screens.  It

18     is an order for further operations dated 26 June 1993 and bears the

19     title: "Lukavac 93."

20        Q.   It will be up on your screen in a minute.

21             While we're waiting for that, General, can I ask you to confirm

22     that the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps also had an opportunity role to play in

23     Lukavac 93?

24        A.   It certainly did, as far as I recall.

25        Q.   We can now see the document on the screen.  I'm going to give you

Page 21978

 1     a moment to familiarise yourself with the details of the document.  Then

 2     I'm going to read from this first page which sets out the current

 3     assessment of the situation.

 4             It states:

 5             "By fighting our forces and the HVO, the Muslim leadership is

 6     trying to maintain its domination over Central Bosnia, solve the issue of

 7     Vares, and then through a great offensive, to unblock Sarajevo, establish

 8     wider corridor between Sarajevo and Gorazde and connect Gorazde with Zepa

 9     and Srebrenica."

10             My question to you is very simply:  Does this agree with your

11     recollection of the situation that prevailed at the end of June in 1993?

12        A.   I cannot comment upon this.  It is an order issued by the SRK

13     which was never sent to me.  I really cannot comment.

14        Q.   Sir --

15        A.   I don't know why you are putting this question to me when I was

16     not a member of the SRK.

17        Q.   Sir --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me intervene for a moment.

19             Witness, the question was whether what you now read or what is

20     read to you, whether that is in line with the situation you remember that

21     it existed at the end of June 1993.

22             So you're not asked to say, I saw the document, or -- just what

23     is read to you:  The situation described in that document, is that

24     consistent with your recollection of the situation at the end of

25     June 1993?  That's the question.

Page 21979

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The situation in June 1993 was as

 2     follows.  Trnovo was in Muslim hands, and the communication between

 3     Foca-Trnovo-Sarajevo was cut off, or Kalinovik-Trnovo-Sarajevo, the

 4     roads.  Then the Muslim forces had established a corridor from Konjic via

 5     Trnovo to Gorazde, and they supplied their forces in Gorazde through that

 6     corridor.  That was the situation.  Now, if this coincides with that,

 7     that is what I know.

 8             MR. GROOME:

 9        Q.   Okay.  It seems that, at least in part, this comports with your

10     recollection.

11             Could I ask now -- well, let me ask you this:  Do you recall that

12     one of the primary objectives of this operation that you personally

13     participated in was to link the Herzegovina Corps and the Sarajevo Corps

14     so that there would be no enemy forces between the two corps?

15        A.   That was one of the objectives.  It was.  And the forces of the

16     Herzegovina Corps and the forces of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps took part

17     in that operation.

18        Q.   Was it also an important objective of this operation to prevent

19     the unblocking of Sarajevo?

20        A.   I'm not aware of that.  I don't know in which sense.  Who would

21     prevent the unblocking of Sarajevo?  I'm not aware of that.

22        Q.   Were you aware of the fact that the operation was, in part, to

23     create conditions for the take-over of Sarajevo, or possible take-over of

24     Sarajevo?

25        A.   I'm not aware of that either.

Page 21980

 1             MR. GROOME:  Can I ask that we go to page 3 of the English and --

 2     I'm sorry.  Page 3 in both.  In the original it is very bottom of page 3

 3     but does carry over to page 4.

 4        Q.   I want to read you a passage with respect to the detailed

 5     objectives of the SRK.

 6             "Take possession of buildings on Igman and Bjelasnica, preventing

 7     manoeuvre of the Muslim forces to and from Sarajevo, prevent its

 8     unblocking, and create conditions for its take-over."

 9             MR. GROOME:  Could I ask that we advance the page for the -- in

10     the B/C/S so that the witness can see the remainder of what I've read.

11     Okay.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I haven't read this.  It was on the

13     other page.  Could you get this one back?

14             MR. GROOME:  We'll go back to page 3 in the B/C/S, please.

15        Q.   So my question to you is:  Do you agree that I have accurately

16     read what the objectives of the SRK were as reported in this order.

17        A.   If that is what is written here, then that is probably the case.

18     But I was not aware of these objectives in such detail because, again,

19     I'm telling you, I did not receive this document.

20        Q.   Fair enough.

21             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, could I ask that this document be

22     marked for identification.  I intend to use it with another witness

23     later.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30647 receives number P6549,

Page 21981

 1     Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  And is marked for identification.

 3             MR. GROOME:

 4        Q.   Now, General Lalovic you're from Kalinovik; correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And that's the same place where General Mladic is from; correct?

 7        A.   Correct.  General Mladic is from one village and I am from

 8     another village.  But we're both from the municipality of Kalinovik.

 9        Q.   And how far away are the two villages?

10        A.   Well, they're about 4 or 5 kilometres away from each other.

11        Q.   And do you still have a home in Kalinovik?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   And --

14        A.   No.  In 1971, my father moved --

15        Q.   Sir --

16        A.   -- out of Kalinovik to Lukavica near Sarajevo and that's where he

17     built a house.

18        Q.   Don't need all that detail but if you can simply just confine

19     yourself to the precise question.  Did you know General Mladic growing

20     up?

21        A.   I didn't know him when I was growing up because General Mladic,

22     as a very young man, left Kalinovik to continue his schooling, so I did

23     not have an opportunity to meet him then.

24        Q.   Now General Mladic's grandfather's name is Filip Lalovic.  Do you

25     recognise the name Filip Lalovic, same last name as you?

Page 21982

 1        A.   I know that his name was Filip Lalovic and I knew this

 2     grandfather Filip Lalovic.

 3        Q.   And is there a relationship, family relationship between

 4     Filip Lalovic and your Lalovic family?

 5        A.   In order for you to understand that, allow me to explain.

 6        Q.   Please go ahead.

 7        A.   The Lalovics are the most numerous family in Kalinovik.  They've

 8     been living there for -- or, rather, in at least half of the villages of

 9     the municipality of Kalinovik.  General Lalovic's mother and grandfather

10     Filip lived in the village of Kuta, and my family lived in the village of

11     Vlaholje.  The distance between these two villages is also approximately

12     4 to 5 kilometres.  The Lalovic family, since they are so spread out,

13     they -- all members are not that close to one another anymore.  So I am

14     not a close relation of grandfather Filip and the mother of General

15     Lalovic -- oh, sorry, General Mladic.  But at any rate, we are distantly

16     related.  Let's put it that way.

17        Q.   Okay.  I just want to make sure that the record has recorded your

18     evidence correctly.  I'm going to read what's been recorded now.  I think

19     there may have been a mistake.  I'd just ask you to simply correct it

20     without going into the entire answer again.  The records you as saying:

21             "General Lalovic's mother," possibly grandmother, "and

22     grandfather Filip --"

23        A.   Sorry, that was the mother of General Mladic.

24        Q.   Okay.

25        A.   Sorry.

Page 21983

 1        Q.   So General Mladic's mother and General Mladic's grandfather lived

 2     in the village of Kuta?  And we know how far away it was from yours.

 3        A.   Kuta.

 4        Q.   Okay.  Now how would you characterise your personal relationship

 5     with General Mladic at this point in time?

 6        A.   My personal relationship with General Mladic is one that I would

 7     describe as a professional relationship of two professionals.  If we're

 8     speaking in the present, two generals.  If we are talking about then,

 9     that is to say, the time of war, then a general and a lieutenant-colonel

10     or rather colonel or rather a relationship between the commander of the

11     Main Staff and the commander of one of the brigades of the Army of

12     Republika Srpska.

13        Q.   Okay.

14             MR. GROOME:  Could I ask that P352 be brought to our screens.

15             Now, General Lalovic, in paragraph 12, you recount that

16     General Kukanjac requested Ejub Ganic to end attacks on the JNA in

17     response to an attack on the 22nd of April, 1992, that you describe in

18     the preceding paragraph.  I've read your evidence.  I'm not asking you to

19     go through it again.  I have one very simple question.  My question is:

20     How did you know what General Kukanjac knew?  What's the basis of that

21     knowledge?

22        A.   I don't understand the question.  I don't find it clear.  What is

23     that I know that General Kukanjac knew, yes?

24        Q.   How did you know that General Kukanjac made this request of

25     Ejub Ganic to end attacks on the JNA.  How do you know that?

Page 21984

 1        A.   I learned that from Colonel Suput, the commander of my regiment.

 2     At the time when this attack took place, Colonel Suput was at the command

 3     of the 2nd Military District with part of the Protection Regiment that

 4     was securing the command of the 2nd Military District, whereas I was at

 5     the Butila barracks with the remainder of the regiment that had been

 6     stationed there.  And Colonel Suput and I were in constant communication

 7     along several channels; radio communication, telephone.  And he said that

 8     to me.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Thank you for that.

10             MR. GROOME:  Now could I ask that we go to page 277 in the

11     original and page 268 in the English.

12        Q.   Now I'm going to show you an entry that is in -- is from the

13     military notebook of General Mladic, and you are mentioned in these

14     notebooks in several places.  The entry that I want to draw your

15     attention to is one in which it appears you and others met with

16     General Mladic on the 9th of May, 1992.  And my first question while

17     you're looking at that first page:  Am I correct that this would be three

18     days before the VRS was established?  The 9th of May.

19        A.   I beg your pardon.  Could you please tell me what the date is

20     exactly, when this happened, and also the place where this happened?

21        Q.   All of our knowledge is based on the notes, so now you can see

22     it.  I think we had the wrong page up there a minute ago.

23             So my first question before we deal with the substance of this --

24     this entry is simply:  Am I correct that the 9th of May, 1992, was three

25     days before the VRS was established.

Page 21985

 1        A.   You're right.

 2        Q.   Now the entry seems to be from a meeting that General Mladic had

 3     with the 2nd Military District Command.  My first question is:  Is to ask

 4     you to simply confirm that this entry was made while both you and

 5     General Mladic were in the JNA.

 6        A.   If it was on the 9th, then, yes, we were members of the JNA; but

 7     at this meeting -- I was not at that meeting.  I did not see

 8     General Mladic then.

 9        Q.   So if we look down, there is a reference to Colonel Milan Suput's

10     deputy, Lieutenant-Colonel Lalovic.  Do you agree that that is a

11     reference to you?

12        A.   I was Colonel Suput's deputy and Chief of Staff of the

13     Protection Regiment, but I did not attend this kind of meeting on the

14     9th of May.  I first saw General Mladic in Crna Rijeka when the Army of

15     Republika Srpska was established and when he came to the command post.

16     That's when I first saw him.  I don't know exactly what the date was, but

17     the army was established on the 12th of May so it must have been soon

18     after that.

19        Q.   Now do you recall Colonel Milan Suput going this meeting?

20        A.   Colonel Milan Suput could not been at that meeting when he was

21     taken prisoner at the time.  And he was in Muslim dungeons where he was

22     tortured.  He was taken prisoner on the 3rd of May and he was freed on

23     the 13th of May.  He was exchanged on the 13th of May at Stupska Petlja.

24        Q.   Okay.  I don't believe you can be helpful interpreting some of

25     the text in this meeting.  Let me change topics.

Page 21986

 1             Now, General Lalovic, you are aware that several cases before

 2     this Tribunal, including this one, involved accused who are members of

 3     the Main Staff of the VRS?

 4        A.   You're expecting me to answer?

 5        Q.   Is that correct?

 6        A.   Yes.  Yes, I know that.

 7        Q.   And you would appreciate that in any case related to the members

 8     of the Main Staff the documents they received, that they authored, that

 9     they signed, that they sent to subordinates.  All of these documents

10     would be quite relevant to these trials.  Do you agree with that?

11        A.   Yes I agree with that.

12        Q.   All of these documents would be found in the archive of the

13     Main Staff of the VRS; correct?

14        A.   That is where they should be.

15        Q.   Do you know where the archive of the Main Staff is located?

16        A.   I don't know.

17             MR. GROOME:  Could I ask that 65 ter 6140 be brought to our

18     screens.  It is a statement by Manojlo Milovanovic that was given to the

19     government of Republika Srpska.  In one section of the statement, he

20     deals with the whereabouts of this archive.

21        Q.   I'll give you a moment to see the first page.  Then I'll ask that

22     we go to page 3.

23             MR. GROOME:  Can we please go to e-court page 3 in both copies.

24        Q.   And in the original text, General Lalovic, could I draw your

25     attention to the bottom of the page.  In this portion of

Page 21987

 1     General Milovanovic's statement, he is describing his efforts to get a

 2     document from the archives of the VRS Main Staff and it recounts a

 3     conversation he had with you.

 4             "It took me until the middle of 2000 to get to the archives.

 5     Precisely on 14 June of that year, a meeting of the Supreme Defence

 6     Council was held in Crna Rijeka and I wanted to obtain some documents

 7     from the archives about the counter-attack carried out against Bihac at

 8     the end of 1994.  However, Colonel Lalovic told me that the archives

 9     could not be accessed but were in a safe place."

10             My first question is whether you acknowledge that the Lalovic

11     that General Milovanovic is referring to is, in fact, you.

12        A.   Probably it is me if it says Dragan Lalovic --

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note we can no longer hear the

14     witness.

15             MR. GROOME:

16        Q.   Sir --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  The interpreters have difficulties in hearing you.

18     Could you please speak into the microphone or perhaps the microphone with

19     the [Overlapping speakers] ...

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that he meant me.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now you said probably it is me if it says

22     Dragan Lalovic.  But it says Colonel Lalovic.  That would still be you?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's me probably.  I think it's me.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

25             MR. GROOME:

Page 21988

 1        Q.   So that question be absolutely sure if we look just few sentences

 2     above where I've just read from, it says:

 3             "Mladic wished it so and then it was Colonel, and later General,

 4     Dragan Lalovic, also because Mladic wished it so."

 5             Does this eliminate any doubt that you are the Lalovic who is

 6     being referred to by General Milovanovic?

 7        A.   Any doubt has been eliminated.  He is talking about me.

 8        Q.   And, in fact, you were at a meeting of the Supreme Defence

 9     Council on the 14th of June, 2000; correct?

10        A.   The 14th of June?  And what's the year?

11        Q.   2000.  According to General Milovanovic.

12        A.   A meeting of the Supreme Defence Council?

13        Q.   Perhaps --

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   Perhaps there's translation issue.  We will check that.

16             Do you acknowledge that you spoke with General Milovanovic with

17     respect to his request to obtain some documents from the Main Staff

18     archives?

19        A.   No.  No, I do not confirm that.  I don't remember him asking me

20     that, and I would be surprised if he asked me for that.  I'm surprised

21     because General Milovanovic knows - just as I know - that, at the time,

22     all organs of the Main Staff that went to Bijeljina --

23        Q.   Sir --

24        A.   -- had their own archives with them and brought them to Bijeljina

25     when the Main Staff was dissolved and when the General Staff headed by

Page 21989

 1     Pero Colic was established.  So all organs of the Main Staff that left

 2     from Crna Rijeka to Bijeljina, they took their archives along with them.

 3     And I'm surprised, I mean, that he could have put it that way.  I

 4     personally was asked by the chief of the security administration,

 5     Colonel Beara, to transport the archives of the security administration

 6     to Bijeljina and to hand it over to the new chief of the security

 7     administration, General Savcic, which is indeed what I did.  If -- I

 8     don't know.  I don't know.  I'm surprised.  I'm really surprised he could

 9     have stated something like that.

10        Q.   Let me ask you:  When did you transfer the archives of the

11     security administration to Bijeljina?  When did you do that?

12        A.   That was sometime -- sometime at the end of 1996.  The

13     General Staff in Bijeljina was established in November 1996.

14        Q.   And the -- the archive that you're referring to, was this part of

15     the Main Staff archive?

16        A.   That's right.  That's right.  It was part of the Main Staff

17     archive.  And Colonel Beara ordered me to take the archives to Bijeljina.

18     All of that was packed.  And they loaded this onto a vehicle and I drove

19     that there, in boxes, and I handed that over to the new chief of the

20     Security Administration, General Savcic.

21        Q.   And as I understand your evidence, this portion of the Main Staff

22     archive, you personally brought it up to Bijeljina.  That's correct?

23        A.   Personally, personally.  I personally drove it up there.

24        Q.   And you personally gave it to the new chief of

25     Security Administration, General Savcic.

Page 21990

 1        A.   General Savcic.  Packed in boxes.  I didn't open that when this

 2     was loaded onto the vehicle and I did not open the boxes when I brought

 3     that to him.  I brought it to him and I said, Sir, Colonel Beara is

 4     sending you the archive of the Security Administration.  It is in these

 5     boxes.  Please appoint someone to receive this.  And he asked a person to

 6     do that, and what was done with it afterwards, I don't know.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome.

 8             MR. GROOME:

 9        Q.   Approximately --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome.

11             MR. GROOME:  Yes.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  It's time for a break, approximately.

13             MR. GROOME:  Okay.  Can I just ask a couple of more questions on

14     this topic and then I'll move on.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, then we'll take the break in a couple of

16     minutes.

17             MR. GROOME:  Thank you.

18        Q.   Can you tell us approximately how many boxes you drove up to

19     Bijeljina?

20        A.   Well, it was in a passenger vehicle, a Golf.  It could have been

21     five or six box, maximum.

22        Q.   So do you deny that you ever had a conversation with

23     General Milovanovic about the location of the archives?

24        A.   I don't remember that I ever talked to him about that.  It's

25     possible that he asked me that, but I don't remember.

Page 21991

 1        Q.   And my last question for the morning is:  Is there any reason

 2     that you can think of why General Milovanovic would fabricate a

 3     conversation with you about the archives of the Main Staff when giving an

 4     official statement to the Republika Srpska government?

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Objection.  Calls for speculation.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, not necessarily.  If you ask, Why did he do

 8     it?  May call for speculation.  But, Do you know of any reason?  It could

 9     be any circumstance.  But apart from that, the witness answered the

10     question.

11             MR. GROOME:  Just so the record is clear --

12        Q.   Your answer is as you sit here today you know of no reason why

13     General Milovanovic would fabricate this account of a conversation with

14     you?

15        A.   I don't know.  I don't know.

16             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, that's -- that concludes that

17     particular topic.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then I'd ask the usher to escort the witness

19     out of the courtroom.

20             Mr. --

21                           [The witness stands down]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I noted that Mr. Mladic, several times,

23     expressed either agreement with or at least he sometimes spoke even a bit

24     louder.  Mr. Mladic is ordered to refrain from any expression of

25     agreement, disagreement, appreciation, whatever, any comment on the

Page 21992

 1     testimony of this witness, and that should be clear to him, and I do

 2     understand from his body language that he has understood this instruction

 3     very well.

 4             We take a break, and we resume at quarter past 12.00.

 5                           --- Recess taken at 11.55 a.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 12.16 p.m.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8                           [The witness takes the stand]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lalovic, Mr. Groome will now continue his

10     cross-examination.

11             Mr. Groome.

12             MR. GROOME:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13        Q.   Now, General Lalovic, General Milovanovic has appeared before

14     this Chamber and therefore the Chamber will be able to make its own

15     evaluation regarding this conversation.

16             My simple question to you is:  Do you accept that if someone did

17     hide the Main Staff archives, evidence relevant to the Tribunal's work,

18     that doing so would be an attempt to undermine the work of the Tribunal?

19        A.   It's possible.  I accept it.

20        Q.   Did you visit General Mladic at the Detention Unit after arriving

21     here in The Hague?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   How many times?

24        A.   Oh, no, I didn't.

25        Q.   Did you intend on visiting him before you leave The Hague?

Page 21993

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I am permitted.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic, no loud speaking.  You can consult with

 4     Mr. Stojanovic, if you wish, at such a level -- microphone off.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Nothing aloud.  Nothing aloud.

 7                           [Defence counsel confer]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, making gestures does not -- is not sufficient,

 9     Mr. Mladic.

10             Please proceed, Mr. Groome.

11             MR. GROOME:

12        Q.   Now, General Lalovic, I don't take any issue with what you say

13     about your military career, but do want to ask you a few questions about

14     your time in Kosovo.

15             Now, in your statement at paragraph 22, you say that you went to

16     the National Defence School in Belgrade on the 1st of September, 1988.

17     You then say:

18             "The training was interrupted due to the breakout of war in the

19     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the bombing that commenced on

20     24 March 1999.  Thereupon I was sent to the Pristina Corps Command where

21     I stayed until the signing of the technical agreement of 10 June 1999."

22             Is it your recollection that you did not go to Pristina until the

23     24th of March, 1999?

24        A.   That's correct.  But I would like to answer the previous question

25     you asked me.  I -- I didn't answer.  You asked me if I should like to

Page 21994

 1     visit General Mladic at the Detention Unit.  Was that the question?

 2        Q.   The -- the record recorded you saying if I am permitted.

 3             Is there significant else you'd like to say in addition that you

 4     will if you are permitted?

 5        A.   I didn't register that my answer was, in fact, understood.  It's

 6     precisely the way you say.  I should like to visit him, if I am

 7     permitted.

 8             Now, if you want an answer to the second question, I can.

 9        Q.   Right.  So is it your recollection that you did not go to

10     Pristina until 24 March 1999?

11        A.   No, I had never been to Pristina before.

12        Q.   Am I correct in saying that the Pristina Corps was a subordinate

13     command of the 3rd Army?

14        A.   You're right.

15        Q.   Now, this Tribunal in the judgement of Milutinovic and others, at

16     paragraph 588 found that General Nebojsa Pavkovic decided on the 1st of

17     February, 1999, to re-establish a forward command post for the 3rd Army

18     in Pristina.  And said:

19             "Due to the growing complexity of the security situation in the

20     3rd Army's zone of responsibility during 1999, Pavkovic, by then 3rd Army

21     commander, decided again to again establish a forward command post in

22     Pristina on 1 February 1999."

23             My question to you is:  Might you be mistaken about when you went

24     to Pristina?

25        A.   No, I'm not mistaken.  I went to the Pristina Corps when the

Page 21995

 1     bombing of the SFRY -- of the FRY - correction - had already started.

 2     The attack started on the 24th of March, 1999.  That's when my training

 3     was interrupted.  And not only mine, the training was interrupted in the

 4     entire National Defence school and all the schools in Belgrade and all

 5     the trainees were sent to various units.

 6        Q.   Okay.

 7        A.   I happened to be sent to the command of the Pristina Corps.

 8             MR. GROOME:  Could I ask that we --

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Groome, just one correction.  I think you

10     misspoke when you first referred to September 1988 in -- on page 51, line

11     19.

12             MR. GROOME:  Just let me pull it up, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You said 1988 but it should be, I suppose, 1998.

14             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.  That's correct.  I'm sorry if I

15     misspoke.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

17             MR. GROOME:  Thank you for that.

18             Could I ask that we see 65 ter 30730 on our screens.  This is an

19     order of the VJ signed by Lieutenant-General Nebojsa Pavkovic on the

20     2nd of February, 1999, assigning Dragan Lalovic and 16 other officers to

21     man the forward command post in Pristina.

22        Q.   Now, Mr. Lalovic, you can see the document on our screens.  I

23     will give you a few moments to familiarise yourself with it.

24        A.   I've looked at it.

25        Q.   Now, according to this order of February 1999, person by the name

Page 21996

 1     of Lieutenant-Colonel Dragan Lalovic was to be part of the forward

 2     command post.  Is this a reference to you?

 3        A.   That's not me.  At that time, I was a colonel.  I was a trainee

 4     at the National Defence School and this is a lieutenant-colonel,

 5     Dragan Lalovic, who had communications, in fact, signals, as his military

 6     specialty, and I believe he was chief of communications at the Command of

 7     the 3rd Army.  I know him.  He is a native of Montenegro.

 8        Q.   Is this the same command post that you then say you went to on

 9     the 24th of March?

10        A.   That's the command post.

11        Q.   Now you say you -- you say in paragraph 22 of your statement that

12     you stayed in Pristina until the 10th of June; correct?

13        A.   Correct.

14        Q.   So between the 24th of March and the 10th of June, 1999, you were

15     present in the forward command post in Pristina; correct?

16        A.   I was on the command of the Pristina Corps in that period.  In

17     the operations and training.  They defined my assignment as assisting

18     them, which means I was not appointed to any command position.  Instead,

19     I organised training and helped the chief of that section.  I did

20     whatever was required.

21        Q.   Now, as I'm sure you know, a judgement was entered with respect

22     to Mr. Pavkovic and others on the 26th of February, 2009, in which

23     Mr. Pavkovic was sentenced to 22 years.

24             I'm going to read you a passage from the judgement summary and

25     then ask you a question.

Page 21997

 1             "The Trial Chamber therefore finds that there was a broad

 2     campaign of violence directed against the Kosovo Albanian civilian

 3     population during the course of the NATO air strikes conducted by forces

 4     under the control of the FRY and Serbian authorities, during which there

 5     were incidents of killing, sexual assault, and the intentional

 6     destruction of mosques.  It was the deliberate actions of these forces

 7     during this campaign that caused the departure of at least 700.000 Kosovo

 8     Albanians from Kosovo in the short period of time between the end of

 9     March and the beginning of June 1999."

10             Now my question you to is the following.  The judgement in this

11     case has been affirmed on appeal.  Do you accept that crimes were

12     committed in the -- in Kosovo, as described by the -- the Trial Chamber?

13             MR. LUKIC:  Sorry I would object.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

15             MR. LUKIC:  I don't think this is a question for this witness.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome.

17             MR. LUKIC:  There is no foundation for this question at all.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome.

19             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I'm entitled to explore whether or not

20     the witness has a bias for or against the work of this Tribunal.

21             MR. LUKIC:  He should know facts from the trial to be able to

22     establish -- I mean, he is not legal expert.  I don't know.  I really

23     don't think this is a proper question for this witness.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 21998

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  The objection is sustained.

 2             You may proceed, Mr. Groome.

 3             MR. GROOME:

 4        Q.   Let me then limit my question to you to factual knowledge.

 5             You were present in the command in Pristina at the time that

 6     serious crimes were committed.  Were you aware of the commission of

 7     crimes by VR -- by FRY and Serbian authorities, including killing, sexual

 8     assault, and the intentional destruction of mosques?  Were you aware of

 9     crimes?

10        A.   I was not aware of those crimes.  I was at the command of the

11     corps where decisions were made concerning combat operations, where

12     combat operations were planned, and they were targeting exclusively armed

13     Siptar forces.  I was not aware of those acts, nor did I see any.

14        Q.   Were you aware while you were present that 700.000

15     Kosovo Albanians were forced from their homes during these events?

16        A.   No, I was not aware of that.

17        Q.   Now I'd like to change topics.  In paragraph 22, you state:

18             "From 15 February 1997 to the 31st of August 1998, I was the

19     commander of military police security detachment.  The detachment was

20     established and stationed at Crna Rijeka and its duty was to secure war

21     command posts of the VRS and General Ratko Mladic."

22             What was your understanding of General Mladic's position at this

23     stage?

24        A.   My understanding was that the position of General Mladic at that

25     stage was the same as the position of any other general of his level.

Page 21999

 1        Q.   And let's be more specific.  Tell us specifically what was your

 2     understanding of his position.  What was -- what were his duties during

 3     this period?  Between February 1997 and August 1998.

 4        A.   It was not mine to think about that.  General Mladic was, by

 5     virtue of the decrees and decisions of the competent authorities, given

 6     certain appointments that went with a certain status.  If his status was

 7     such that he was supposed to be at a war command position in the Army of

 8     Republika Srpska, then that's how it was.  What -- what other

 9     understanding was I supposed to have?

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome, you are putting questions to the witness

11     in relation to the position of Mr. Mladic.

12             That is at least an ambiguous question because there are several

13     aspects of that position.  One of them, and I may perhaps ask the

14     witness, were you aware of any indictment brought against General Mladic?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I knew that.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Groome.

17             MR. GROOME:

18        Q.   Sir, as commander of the military police security detachment, you

19     commanded the people who were directly responsible for Mr. Mladic's

20     security; correct?

21        A.   Correct.

22        Q.   My question is very simple.  During the period that you were the

23     commander responsible for his security, what was your understanding of

24     his title?

25        A.   I said that a moment ago.

Page 22000

 1        Q.   Well the --

 2        A.   Just give me a minute to explain.  By his position and rank

 3     according to the rules that prevailed at the time, General Mladic was one

 4     of the top military officers who were entitled to security provided by

 5     military units.  The decision to form that detachment was made by the

 6     competent authority in Serbia.  It was not my decision to set up that

 7     detachment, nor was it my decision to appoint myself commander of that

 8     unit.  The competent authorities decided to form that unit and appoint me

 9     commander, and if they decided that I should discharge that duty, then I

10     don't see why I should have had any doubts or refused to execute this

11     order.  If I had refused, I would have opened myself to prosecution.

12        Q.   Now, sir, this is the second rather lengthy answer with all I'm

13     seeking is a simple one or two words.  That's what I ask you for now.

14     Maybe the transcript is somehow missing what you are saying.  What was

15     the command or what was the duty of Mladic during February 1997 and

16     August 1998?

17        A.   I don't know what his duty was.

18        Q.   Okay.

19        A.   I didn't have any access to the decrees appointing General Mladic

20     or the orders given to him.

21        Q.   Where --

22        A.   And it was not my job to know.

23        Q.   Where was he stationed?

24        A.   General Mladic was stationed, from the beginning of March 1997,

25     in Crna Rijeka, at the command post.  After that, he left for Belgrade,

Page 22001

 1     and he was based in Serbia.

 2        Q.   When did he leave for Belgrade?

 3        A.   In early March 1997.  I think it was the beginning of March.  I

 4     don't remember the date, but I believe it was in the beginning of March.

 5        Q.   And can I ask you to say the year again?  There seems to be some

 6     confusion.

 7        A.   1997.

 8        Q.   And you accompanied him to Belgrade?

 9        A.   No, I didn't.  He was accompanied by the men who were told to do

10     so.

11        Q.   Now, you said --

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can I ask for some clarification.

13             MR. GROOME:  Sure, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sir, you said that from beginning of March 1997,

15     General Mladic was stationed in Crna Rijeka.  Was it in this same month -

16     March 1997 - that he moved for Belgrade?  To Belgrade.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't understand the question.

18     Could you say that again?

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  On page 58, lines 22 to 23, you said:

20             "General Mladic was stationed, from the beginning of March 1997,

21     in Crna Rijeka, at the command post."

22             That is what we can find in your statement as well.

23             Then you said he went to Belgrade at the beginning of March 1997.

24     That means in the same month; is that correct?  Or is there some

25     confusion?  Could you please clarify.

Page 22002

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Until the beginning of March 1997,

 2     General Mladic, who -- was in Crna Rijeka at his war time command post.

 3     When the war began in 1997, he left for Belgrade, Serbia.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can you help me?  Which war are you referring to

 5     which began in 1997?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not talking about war.  I'm

 7     talking about the month of March.  General Mladic was at his war time

 8     command post in Crna Rijeka until the beginning of March 1997.  In the

 9     beginning of March 1997, he departed for Belgrade, Serbia.

10             Is it clear now?

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And when -- from which time on did he reside in

12     Crna Rijeka?  When was that post set up?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Crna Rijeka was a command post of

14     the war time staff of the VRS, was established on the 12th of May, 1992,

15     when the VRS was established.  That's where the Main Staff of the VRS was

16     based.  And when it was disbanded in November 1996, that's when the

17     Main Staff of the VRS was disbanded, and a General Staff was set up in

18     Bijeljina, headed by General Pero Colic.  General Mladic spent all his

19     time there and never went anywhere until he departed for Serbia.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you for that clarification.

21             MR. GROOME:

22        Q.   Now where in Belgrade did General Mladic go?

23        A.   General Mladic left for Belgrade to live in his apartment, in his

24     house.  I know that soon after he arrived, the wedding of his son Darko

25     was organised, and he attended that wedding.

Page 22003

 1        Q.   And during this period, you were still responsible for his

 2     security; correct?

 3        A.   I was the commander of the security unit, whereas the direct

 4     security detail around him consisted of men whom I designated.

 5        Q.   And how long did he remain in his apartment in Belgrade?

 6        A.   I don't know that.  I don't remember.  I really can't tell you.

 7     I don't remember.

 8        Q.   Until August 1998, do you know if General Mladic moved out of his

 9     apartment in Belgrade?

10        A.   No.  General Mladic never moved out of his apartment.  It's still

11     his apartment, and his wife still lives there.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I invite you to carefully listen to the

13     answer [sic].  The answer was not whether he still owned that apartment

14     and whether his family was living there, but Mr. Groome is interested in

15     knowing on when, in fact, Mr. Mladic discontinued to live in that

16     apartment.

17             Could you please answer that question?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.  I just did.  I said

19     that General Mladic never moved out of that apartment.  He never stopped

20     living there.  Occasionally he left the Belgrade apartment to go to some

21     military facilities.  And, again, occasionally he returned from those

22     facilities to the apartment.  That is why I am saying that he never left

23     the apartment.  I don't know what you understand by that term.

24             In my understanding, if someone leaves or moves out of an

25     apartment, they leave it for good.  I don't know what your meaning of it

Page 22004

 1     is.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  My meaning is that you spend most of your time not

 3     in that apartment any further.  That is what I understand by to

 4     discontinue living there.  Doesn't mean that you never go back but it

 5     means that you are most of the days not living in that apartment and that

 6     have you other places where you spend most of your days and nights.

 7     That's what I understand by living or not living in an apartment.

 8             Could you tell us from when on Mr. Mladic did not any further

 9     spend most of his days and nights in his apartment in Belgrade?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] While I commanded the unit, which

11     was between the 15th of February, 1997 and the 24th of February, 2001.

12     General Mladic occasionally stayed had his Belgrade apartment and

13     sometimes went to certain military facilities where he spent certain

14     periods of time.  I can't tell you exactly how much time he spent in his

15     apartment as opposed to the time spent in those facilities.

16             The last time I saw --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I wasn't asking that.  I asked when most of the time

18     he did not further stay in his apartment.

19             I give you one last chance to answer that question.  If not, I

20     just have to establish that you are not directly responding to my

21     question.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to provide a direct

23     answer, but I can't because General Mladic spent some time in February,

24     the last time in February 2001 where I saw him for the last time, just

25     before I left my position for a more senior one in the 7th Corps of the

Page 22005

 1     VRS where I was appointed the Chief of Staff.  That is why I can't answer

 2     your question directly.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Was then -- in February 2001, was Mr. Mladic

 4     spending most of his time habitually living in his apartment in Belgrade?

 5     Would he be there four, five, six days a week, or would he be there once

 6     every month, or perhaps once every second month, or?  And I'm now talking

 7     about the time when you said you -- February 2001.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  He was then staying most of the time in his

10     apartment in Belgrade, or not?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I remember, at that time,

12     he was mostly in his apartment.  At least to the extent I am able to

13     recollect it.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome.

15             MR. GROOME:

16        Q.   Sir, so I understand your evidence correctly, you were

17     responsible for General Mladic's security between February 1997 and

18     February 2001, a period of four years; correct?

19        A.   Correct.

20        Q.   Now you said just a moment ago in a response to a question by

21     Judge Orie that he sometimes went to certain military facilities where he

22     spent certain periods of time.  Can you please name those military

23     facilities?

24        A.   I can.  Just before that, let me tell you this:  Out of the four

25     years, I spent one year at the National Defence School between the 1st of

Page 22006

 1     September, 1998, and the 1st of September, 1999.  That -- during that

 2     time, I was not at that position.

 3             I apologise, could you now repeat your last question.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps next time you first answer the question and

 5     only then tell us what you apparently find important to tell us.

 6             The question simply was to name those military facilities.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] While I held the position of the

 8     unit commander, General Mladic --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  No, [Indiscernible].  No.  Name of the military

10     facilities where Mr. Mladic spent yet undefined times.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] General Mladic spent some time in

12     the military facility at Rajac as well as the Stragari military facility.

13             MR. GROOME:

14        Q.   Did he also stay at Topcider?

15        A.   No.  Not while I was there.

16        Q.   Are you sure about that?

17        A.   I'm certain.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  And -- and at any time you were not there, did he

19     then spend time in the facility just mentioned by Mr. Groome?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that.  While I was

21     there, in barracks, while I was at that position, there was personnel in

22     the Topcider barracks, meaning the personnel engaged in providing

23     security for General Mladic.  So he may have come to talk to them on

24     occasion, but I don't know whether he did.  I wasn't posted there all the

25     time.

Page 22007

 1             MR. GROOME:

 2        Q.   So, sir, you're saying that personnel engaged in providing

 3     security for Mladic, these are personnel under your command?

 4        A.   They were under my command.

 5        Q.   And for what period of time were they at Topcider -- was your

 6     personnel at Topcider?

 7        A.   I can't say precisely.  I know that they were there when the air

 8     campaign started.  They were there then on the 24th of March.  I don't

 9     know how much earlier they were sent there.  I can't say precisely.

10        Q.   Would I be correct in saying that his presence at these military

11     facilities was not public information?

12        A.   You would be.

13        Q.   Would I be correct in saying information that he was at these

14     facilities, including Topcider, was something that was considered to be

15     secret?

16        A.   It was considered secret for many; although, for some, it wasn't.

17     It was secret for most.  Usually you don't publicise where a particular

18     person that a security escort is being provided for is at any point in

19     time.

20        Q.   Was it something that was kept secret from other military

21     personnel at these facilities, including Topcider?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   So is it your evidence that during the times he was at these

24     military facility, including Topcider, it was known by other military

25     personnel stationed there, that General Mladic was staying there?

Page 22008

 1        A.   Sir.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  [Overlapping speakers]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, one second.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  [Interpretation] Objection.  [In English] This

 5     gentleman never confirmed that Mr. Mladic was in Topcider and it was

 6     proposed to him now --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  He also did not exclude for that possibility.  So I

 8     think if the question would have been phrased correctly by Mr. Groome, it

 9     would have been military facilities potentially including Topcider.  That

10     would be the right phrasing of the question.  But the witness didn't

11     exclude for that possibility.

12             MR. LUKIC:  When he was enumerating the objects, he knew he was

13     enumerating and he gave us two names --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but --

15             MR. LUKIC:  And then the position was, I mean by the Prosecution,

16     he said --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  And then he answered the question by saying that his

18     people who were -- to give security to Mr. Mladic were at Topcider and

19     that he would not exclude for the possibility that Mr. Mladic went there

20     to see him.  That's exactly the -- what I [Overlapping speakers] ...

21             MR. LUKIC:  But he -- but to see --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Let's --

23             MR. LUKIC:  -- [Overlapping speakers]... be there.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  -- we have -- well, if you go somewhere then you are

25     there, Mr. Lukic.  Perhaps not permanently.  But let's stay out of that

Page 22009

 1     at this moment.  Let's return to the question --

 2             MR. GROOME:

 3        Q.   Sir --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, perhaps you repeat the question, Mr. Groome.

 5             MR. GROOME:

 6        Q.   Well, sir, in light of Mr. Lukic's comments if the people under

 7     your command assigned to take care of General Mladic are somewhere, is it

 8     your expectation as a commander that they're with him, the people that

 9     are protecting him are there with the person they're assigned to protect?

10     Is that not a fair conclusion?

11        A.   It is not a logical conclusion to be drawn.  First of all, I

12     didn't say that General Mladic stayed at the Topcider barracks.  I said

13     that I do not exclude the possibility that he came to see them.  If he

14     did, to talk to them, it was perhaps for half an hour or an hour --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, how -- could you tell us, because you're now

16     repeating what you said already and what I summarised and I didn't hear

17     from Mr. Lukic that I wasn't summarising it accurately, you said he would

18     be there for half an hour or an hour.  You couldn't exclude for that.

19     How do you know that?  Why couldn't he have been there for three or four

20     hours?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know because I received reports

22     from the people who were there, the people who provided security detail

23     for General Mladic.  They were billeted in one building of the Topcider

24     barracks, while General Mladic was either in his apartment or in the

25     military facility.

Page 22010

 1             From there, the personnel went to wherever General Mladic went if

 2     he was in movement.  They provide security at his -- the place of his

 3     apartment and in the facility as well.  So from the Topcider barracks,

 4     people were dispatched to go about their security tasks.  That is my

 5     answer.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  What, of course, Mr. Groome draws your attention to

 7     that it seems not to be very practical to billet those who are providing

 8     security for Mr. Mladic at a place and specifically a place where he

 9     never was or only exceptionally for half an hour or an hour.  That is

10     what Mr. Groome is drawing your attention to.  Any comment on that?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can comment.  I'm a

12     professional in that regard.  I was a member of the military police for

13     15 years, and I was engaged in such affairs.  When a person is being

14     secured, that person is never staying with the people providing security.

15     He's always in one place and the personnel in another.  They are never

16     together and this case was such.  We provided security for General Mladic

17     in his apartment.  We can't stay there.  I needed to have accommodation

18     for the people, a place where they can shower, eat, and function normally

19     in order to be rested and ready for the task.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yeah.  I can understand that if we're talking about

21     an apartment where an individual is living.  I have more difficulties in

22     understanding this if someone is residing in a military facility where

23     there may be, like in Topcider, may be facilities security as well in the

24     same premises or nearby, to take their showers and to sleep.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When he went to Rajac, he was

Page 22011

 1     accompanied by a group of people who were billeted in that facility.

 2     General Mladic would stay in one building and the people in another.

 3             When he went to Stragari, that facility already had its own

 4     security provided by the Army of Yugoslavia and then General Mladic was

 5     accompanied by a very small group, like two escorts and a driver at the

 6     most.  They would then be accommodated in one of the buildings in the

 7     facility where General Mladic was, close to him.  However, the facility

 8     at Topcider --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- was something we considered to a

11     base for the unit which provided security for him.  They spent their time

12     there.  When needed, they left the base to perform their tasks wherever

13     it was that General Mladic went.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I see.  Do I understand that you were fully familiar

15     with all the details of the whereabouts of General Mladic during that

16     period of time?  If even occasional visits of half an hour or one hour to

17     Topcider were reported to you, if your people had to accompany him when

18     he was in his apartment, when you were aware of all the facilities where

19     your people went and stayed when General Mladic was there?  Do I

20     understand that you had full oversight of every movement of

21     General Mladic.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One couldn't say so.  I did not

23     have full oversight.  I wasn't there permanently.  Most of my time was

24     spent at Crna Rijeka, but I did receive reports from my subordinates.  So

25     I can say that in 90 per cent of the cases, I knew where General Mladic

Page 22012

 1     was, or I learned of it later.  Sometimes they wouldn't notify me

 2     immediately where he was to go.  There was no logic that they should

 3     share that via communication links.  They were sufficiently independent

 4     and could organise themselves.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome, please proceed.

 6             MR. GROOME:

 7        Q.   So, sir, this -- where we're -- you're at now is 90 per cent of

 8     the time between February 1997 and February 2001, you knew where

 9     General Mladic was?  Do I understand your evidence correctly?

10        A.   You understood it well.  But I can't reconstruct everything.  If

11     you were to ask me to what date to what date he was in his apartment or

12     at Stragari or at Rajac, I can't tell you that.

13        Q.   Now, on the 11th July 1996 three Judges of this Tribunal issued

14     an international arrest warrant for General Mladic.  Earlier today, you

15     said that you were aware of that arrest warrant.  My question to you is:

16     Were you aware of that arrest warrant prior to taking up command in

17     February 1997 --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome, could you point us as --

19             MR. LUKIC:  Objection.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  -- where the witness said that he was aware of the

21     arrest warrant.

22             MR. GROOME:  It was a response --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  A question was put to him about awareness of an

24     indictment and not about an arrest warrant, as far as I remember.

25             MR. GROOME:  I stand corrected.  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 22013

 1        Q.   The same day that the indictment was confirmed by three Judges of

 2     this Tribunal on the 11th of July 1996, they issued an international

 3     arrest warrant.  Were you aware that there was an international arrest

 4     warrants issued by this Tribunal?

 5        A.   I was aware of the warrant.  I learned about it from the media.

 6     As for any arrests, I don't recall that.  If it was made public in the

 7     media -- well, I considered it to be one and the same thing.

 8        Q.   So my question then is:  Were you aware at the time you took

 9     command of the unit responsible for General Mladic's security, were you

10     aware that an arrest warrant and an indictment had been issued?

11        A.   I learned of it through the media.  I knew that an indictment was

12     issued.

13        Q.   Were you aware that there has -- a sizeable monetary reward had

14     been posted for information that could lead to his apprehension?  Were

15     you aware of that?

16        A.   I could see that from the media.  I knew.

17        Q.   So at the time you took responsibility for his security, were you

18     aware that there was an arrest warrant, plus a sizeable reward, for

19     information leading to his capture.  Were you aware of that at the time

20     that you assumed command of the unit responsible for his security?

21        A.   I knew that the indictment was issued, and I knew about the

22     monetary reward.  I learned it from the media.

23        Q.   My question is:  When did you learn it?  Did you learn it before

24     you assumed command in February 1997?

25        A.   I learned of it around that time.  I don't know whether it was

Page 22014

 1     before or after.

 2        Q.   Now, in paragraph 26 of your statement it says, in part:

 3             "At that time we provided security for General Mladic against

 4     criminals and individuals who would attempt to cause him harm in any

 5     manner."

 6             Would you have considered an effort by SFOR to apprehend

 7     General Mladic pursuant to a warrant issued by this Court to be something

 8     you would have protected General Mladic from?

 9        A.   Any SFOR attempt would be in keeping with the arrest warrant, but

10     it never materialised.  If it had, I would have been forced to implement

11     my task, which was to protect General Mladic at the time.  At the time,

12     there was no arrest warrant for General Mladic in my country issued by

13     our authorities.  If there was no arrest warrant, how could I allow that

14     General Mladic be -- would be arrested if I were tasked with providing

15     security for him?

16        Q.   Do I conclude from that, that you do not or did not recognise the

17     legal authority of an arrest warrant issued by this Tribunal?

18        A.   I don't think you can conclude that.  Until the International

19     Tribunal turns to me directly or to one of my superiors requesting that

20     we arrest him and deliver him, the question remains purely hypothetical.

21     If it happened, then someone more senior to me, starting with the

22     president of Republika Srpska down, would have to decide that I should

23     deliver him.

24        Q.   Sir, you've given evidence that he travelled to Belgrade in 1997.

25     What order or what instruction did you give the men under your command if

Page 22015

 1     they were to be stopped by SFOR attempting to arrest General Mladic?

 2        A.   When he went to Serbia, there was no possibility for him to be

 3     arrested by SFOR, and there was no need for me to issue any instructions

 4     in that regard.

 5        Q.   How did he get from Crna Rijeka to Serbia?

 6        A.   From Crna Rijeka to Serbia, he travelled along the road from

 7     Crna Rijeka-Han Pijesak-Vlasenica and Zvornik used by all other motor

 8     vehicles.  He crossed the bridge at Karakaj where the border crossing to

 9     Serbia is, just as any other person would have.

10        Q.   So again I return to my -- to my question:  What did you instruct

11     your subordinates who were responsible for his security to do if SFOR

12     made an attempt to arrest General Mladic?

13        A.   I didn't even consider that variant.  At the time, I had no

14     intelligence of SFOR wanting to arrest General Mladic.

15        Q.   So it's your evidence that despite an arrest warrant and a

16     reward, you never considered the possibility that SFOR would want to

17     arrest General Mladic?  Is that your evidence?

18        A.   I didn't consider that.  I didn't consider the possibility

19     because I had no such information.  I have to say that sometime in

20     mid-1996 in Vlasenica, I met with a -- an American brigade commander.  I

21     think his name was Colonel Battista [phoen].  The topic of the meeting

22     was not General Mladic.  It was something unrelated to it, concerning

23     some soldiers who were carrying arms where they shouldn't have.  And they

24     belonged to a certain unit in Vlasenica.  Then Battista said, We are not

25     looking for General Mladic or Karadzic.  He started discussing it and

Page 22016

 1     mentioned it along the way.  He said, We're not looking for them, but if

 2     they showed up here at this moment, I would have to arrest them.  That is

 3     why I didn't even consider that possibility.

 4             Secondly, no one even announced that possibility.  We were in

 5     contact with SFOR and they never announced it.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  We are close to a break.

 7             I have one or two questions for you.  You said in one of your

 8     previous answers:

 9             "Until the International Tribunal turns to me directly or to one

10     of my superiors requesting that we arrest him and deliver him, the

11     question remains purely hypothetical."

12             Do I understand that you had no knowledge of the International

13     Tribunal turning to your superiors - that means your government - to have

14     Mr. Mladic be arrested and delivered to the Tribunal?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, General Mladic

16     became a wanted man in Republika Srpska in May 2000 roughly at the same

17     time in the territory of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.  I don't

18     know whether the International Tribunal or any other international

19     institution addressed the organs of government of Republika Srpska, the

20     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, or the military organs directly to have

21     General Mladic extradited.  I really don't know.  That did not reach me.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  You -- you learned everything from the media but not

23     that he was wanted and to be transferred to The Hague?  You thought that

24     it was just not serious to indict him and?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't think it was not

Page 22017

 1     serious.  I just didn't consider this indictment.  I didn't.  I ...

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  But an indictment without an accused to appear

 3     before a court, that -- you were not aware that he -- this Tribunal

 4     really had taken every steps to secure his presence here in The Hague,

 5     including his transfer?  You were not aware of that?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that time, I did not know.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  One question by Judge Fluegge.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You told us you received the duty to provide

11     security for Mr. Mladic.  Who was it who gave this task to you?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Supreme Commander of Army of

13     Republika Srpska, the president of Republika Srpska, who ordered the

14     establishment of such a unit.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  He, that means Mr. Karadzic personally?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the time it was

17     Mrs. Biljana Plavsic who was the president, not Karadzic.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And she ordered you to provide this security; is

19     that correct?  Personally or in writing?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not personally.  She ordered the

21     establishment of this unit, and such orders are written up on the

22     establishment of a unit.  And then that went through the General Staff of

23     the Army of Republika Srpska.  No one gave me a personal order.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  But a written order, to be the head of this unit

25     where -- that had to provide security; correct?

Page 22018

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.  That's right.

 2     Written order appointing me commander.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Did you remember when this order was issued?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  No, I don't remember exactly

 5     when it was issued.  Probably during those days.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  We take a break, but could the witness first be

 7     escorted out of the room.

 8                           [The witness stands down]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Since the Defence told us that the witness would

10     have to leave, I'm a bit concerned about the time.

11             Mr. Groome, could you give us any indication?

12             MR. GROOME:  I think we should be able to finish today,

13     Your Honour.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Which means how much time left for Mr. Lukic?

15             MR. GROOME:  I don't know that.  I don't know how much time

16     Mr. Lukic --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  But if you are confident that we finish

18     today -- [Overlapping speakers] ...

19             MR. GROOME:  Well, I'm sorry, I should say that I have used an

20     hour and 15 minutes.  I don't think I will use the full time that I

21     anticipated.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  How much time do you think you would still need?

23             MR. GROOME:  Let me take a look, Your Honour, and I'll give a

24     more precise answer.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, if you could either communicate with Mr. Lukic

Page 22019

 1     and see how you divide the time.  I don't know how much time Mr. Lukic

 2     would need.

 3             MR. GROOME:  I believe Mr. Lukic said to me earlier today that he

 4     is available for early tomorrow morning as long as we get him out of

 5     here, so I'm not sure that time is as much a pressure as the Chamber

 6     believes.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I do not know.  But we follow the suggestions

 8     by the -- we'll hear from the parties --

 9             MR. LUKIC:  I think he has to finish today.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We'll hear from the parties how we proceed

11     until quarter past 2.00, and if there's any dispute in a solution, then,

12     of course, the Chamber will take the necessary decisions.

13             We resume at 20 minutes to 2.00.

14                           --- Recess taken at 1.23 p.m.

15                           --- On resuming at 1.43 p.m.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  While waiting for the witness to be escorted into

17     the courtroom, meanwhile, perhaps a brief question.  The focus was on

18     arrest warrants issued 2000.  I didn't hear any question about arrest

19     warrant issued in 1995, 1996.  That's -- that surprises me a bit because

20     it was so much earlier, isn't it.

21             MR. GROOME:  That's true, Your Honour, but after the Rule 61

22     hearing the Chamber issued an international arrest warrant.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

24             MR. GROOME:  And clearly there's a fine line between the two, but

25     it seemed to me that the more unequivocal arrest warrant was the one

Page 22020

 1     issued in July 1st 1996.  Otherwise, I guess one would question the

 2     purpose of the Rule 61 hearing.

 3                           [The witness takes the stand]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Okay.  Let's -- have the parties agreed on

 5     timing?  Yes, that's appreciated.

 6             Please proceed, Mr. Groome.

 7             MR. GROOME:  Just let me say what the agreement is.  Mr. Lukic

 8     has said that has no questions.  And I have -- I have 50 minutes left, I

 9     will endeavour to do it in 30 minutes.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  You see how confident the Chamber is that if you

11     reach an agreement that, without even knowing the details, that we rely

12     that it goes well.

13             Please proceed.

14             MR. GROOME:

15        Q.   So, Mr. Lukic has asked me to correct something with you.  He

16     says that he believes the record has incorrectly recorded what you said

17     about when you believed General Mladic became a wanted man in

18     Republika Srpska.

19             So can you repeat the time-period or date when you believe he

20     became a wanted man in Republika Srpska.

21        A.   Well, I cannot say what the exact date would be.  As far as I can

22     remember you've already asked me that and I said it was around February.

23     Now, was it before the establishment of this unit or after that?  I don't

24     know exactly.  And I think that is what I said when you asked me.

25        Q.   No -- okay.  We'll leave it there.  Mr. Lukic can clarify more if

Page 22021

 1     he needs to.

 2             Now, you've said that Biljana Plavsic created the unit.  Now she

 3     was president up until 1998.  So my question is:  Under whose authority

 4     or who was your superior for the time that you had your unit protecting

 5     General Mladic while he was in Belgrade?

 6        A.   My superior command was the General Staff of the Army of

 7     Republika Srpska.  According to the then-rules of the military police,

 8     this unit was subordinated to the chief of General Staff of the Army of

 9     Republika Srpska and professionally it was the chief of the

10     Security Administration that was in charge of it.

11        Q.   And is it your evidence that that is the case up until 2001, when

12     you no longer -- when you ceased to function in this capacity?

13        A.   That's right.

14        Q.   Now --

15        A.   That's the way it was until 2001, when my function ceased to

16     exist.  But how it was after that, I don't know.

17        Q.   Now there's been a lot of discussion about international arrest

18     warrants, warrants issued nationally.  I want to boil it down to an

19     essential question:  Isn't it true that you were not prepared to act

20     solely on the -- an international arrest warrant issued by this court?

21        A.   Well, I was not prepared to act because the organs in charge in

22     my country did not ask me to do that.  It wouldn't be clear to me what it

23     is that I'm supposed to do.  The authorities of my country appoint me to

24     do such and such a job, and the international authorities are asking for

25     something completely different.  I would have been in a major dilemma, as

Page 22022

 1     a matter of fact.

 2        Q.   You now have just said that the authorities in your country were

 3     asking to you do something completely different than the international

 4     authorities.  What precisely was your understanding of what you -- the

 5     authorities of your country were asking you to do?

 6        A.   My understanding was that the authorities asked me to have this

 7     unit secure the war command post and provide security for General Mladic.

 8        Q.   Now, we started this discussion with paragraph 26 of your

 9     statement.  I want to return to that.  You say in relation to the Law on

10     Co-operation with the ICTY:  "The relevant law was adopted in June 2001

11     when I was no longer involved in securing the general."

12             My question to you is:  Is it true that after you left you no

13     longer had anything to do with securing General Mladic?

14        A.   That is correct.  I had nothing to do with securing

15     General Mladic.

16        Q.   And that includes not only in an official capacity but in an

17     unofficial capacity?

18        A.   That's right.  I had nothing to do with providing security for

19     General Mladic in an official capacity.  And as for an unofficial

20     capacity, I had no need for that to deal with his security, and I did not

21     deal with his security.

22        Q.   Do you acknowledge that in 2003 the European Union placed a

23     travel ban on you because it had information that you were part of a

24     network providing support to indicted war criminals, including

25     General Mladic?

Page 22023

 1        A.   I admit that that is what the European community did, but I do

 2     not admit that I did anything in respect of the security of

 3     General Mladic after I left that unit.

 4        Q.   Do you acknowledge that in 2003 the United States also placed a

 5     travel ban on you for the same reasons?

 6        A.   Yes, yes, for the same reason.  But I'm saying once again this

 7     was based on their information up until 2001 when I was there.  After

 8     2001, February 2001, I did not take part in General Mladic's security.

 9        Q.   Do you acknowledge that on the 29th of May, 2003, you were placed

10     on a list of the USA Office of Foreign Assets which restricted your

11     ability to conduct international financial transactions because it

12     believed that you were part of a network that was supporting war

13     criminals.  Do you acknowledge that?

14        A.   I acknowledge that.  But I was not part of that network that gave

15     this support, but I do acknowledge that this had been done by the United

16     States.

17        Q.   Do you acknowledge that on the 7th of July, 2003, the Office of

18     the High Representative in Bosnia placed a freeze on your bank accounts

19     in Bosnia because of information it had that you were part of a network

20     that was supporting war criminals.  Do you acknowledge that?

21        A.   I acknowledge that too.  But I was not part of this network, as

22     they had put it.  But I acknowledge that that is what they did.

23        Q.   Now all of these restrictions on your travel and finances, they

24     remained in effect until General Mladic was captured; correct?

25        A.   Well, I don't know until that was -- well, what they based that I

Page 22024

 1     mean.  I don't know.

 2        Q.   When were they lifted.  When were you able to travel again, when

 3     were your bank accounts able to be accessed again?

 4        A.   I had no bank accounts anyway.  And I mean, these bans were

 5     lifted a few years ago, as far as I know.  I don't know the exact year.

 6        Q.   Now you deny that you gave assistance to war criminals.  Do you

 7     acknowledge that someone who helps hide a person -- well, do you

 8     acknowledge that someone who helps hide a person that has been indicted

 9     by this Tribunal -- I'm sorry, strike all of that.

10             You've denied giving assistance to war criminals.  Do you

11     acknowledge that providing financial assistance to someone who is a

12     fugitive is in fact rendering assistance to them?

13        A.   I accept that.  Whoever this gives that kind of assistance, yes,

14     I accept that.

15        Q.   Now, on the 8th of July 2004 SFOR soldiers as well as police

16     executed a search warrant on your apartment in Banja Luka; correct?

17        A.   That was not my apartment.  That was the apartment of

18     Colonel Jovan Lalovic.  And SFOR missed on that score.  It was the

19     apartment of Colonel Jovan Lalovic and they were looking for

20     General Lalovic in that apartment.  That was not my apartment.  SFOR

21     never searched a single apartment of mine or any place where I was

22     staying.

23        Q.   Now, paragraph 25 of your statement, you talk about being

24     relieved of duty and you say:

25             "On 11 July 2003, the SFOR commander relieved me of the above

Page 22025

 1     duty because I allegedly assisted General Ratko Mladic in his hiding.

 2     That was certainly not true."

 3             Have I read that correctly?  Have you characterised your evidence

 4     correctly?

 5        A.   You paraphrased my words correctly.  It is correct that the

 6     commander of SFOR replaced me, but I'm saying that it's not true that I

 7     helped General Ratko Mladic hide because while I was commander of the

 8     security unit the General was not hiding.  You already asked me about

 9     that, and we talked about the apartment and the facilities where he

10     stayed from time to time.  He moved about Belgrade like any other

11     citizen.  He went to the market-place to shop.  He went to stores to buy

12     bread.  He went to football games.

13        Q.   Sir --

14        A.   He met in different places with some of his --  please go ahead.

15        Q.   We'll all doing our best to try to allow you to catch your plane

16     today, so if you can please be brief in your answers to me, it would be

17     appreciated.

18             While General Mladic was a fugitive did you ever authorise

19     payments be made to him?  I saw you nod your head but I didn't hear an

20     answer.  Did you ever authorise payments to General Mladic?

21        A.   No.  No.

22        Q.   Did you --

23        A.   I did not authorise any payments to General Mladic.

24        Q.   Did you ever order your subordinates to process payments for

25     General Mladic?

Page 22026

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   Now while he was a fugitive, my office undertook efforts to

 3     locate him.  The national authorities of Bosnia and Herzegovina also

 4     undertook efforts.  As part of their efforts, they undertook a series of

 5     interviews.  I want to deal with things three different people said about

 6     you in their statements to the Ministry of Security of Bosnia and

 7     Herzegovina.  Each of these three people came into knowledge that you

 8     were instrumental in assisting Mladic.

 9             Person number one was one of the people who processed payments to

10     the VRS and VJ members.  He saw Ratko Mladic was being paid and

11     questioned it.  He said that an authorised officer would verify the

12     payment list and it usually was Colonel Dragan Lalovic.  Do you accept

13     that person 1 is referring to you?

14        A.   If this person is mentioning Colonel Dragan Lalovic, then this

15     person is referring to me.

16        Q.   Person 2 said that when he saw Ratko Mladic's name on a payment

17     list for a unit that he knew Mladic did not belong to that he went to

18     Colonel Dragan Lalovic and told him that he would not process the

19     paperwork without someone's order.  He said you told him that you had

20     been ordered to process the payment and you were, in turn, ordering him.

21     Do you accept that person number 2 is referring to you?

22        A.   Person number 2 is referring to me.

23        Q.   Do you accept what person number 2 says as being truthful?

24        A.   I have to explain that to you.  The payment of officers is

25     carried out on the basis of appointment orders and on the basis of the

Page 22027

 1     report on handing over duty.  The appointment decision is made by the

 2     authority in charge, and the report on the hand-over of duty is compiled

 3     by the personnel organ who then gives it to the person involved, and then

 4     that person signs it and then the so-called work lists are written up.

 5             A work list is a document, including the names of all the persons

 6     who serve in that military post, and the work list is signed by the

 7     commander.  I sign it.  With my signature, I just verify that these

 8     persons were at work.  I am not the person that is issuing payments to

 9     them, that is giving them money.  Salaries and money, that is what their

10     officers, their superiors, make possible.  In the case of General Mladic,

11     it is probably the General Staff or the 30th Personnel Centre.

12        Q.   During what period of time did you sign payment lists on which

13     you saw General Mladic's name?

14        A.   Then when I was commander of the unit.  Before that, that was

15     done by Colonel Beara.  When Beara left, then I signed it.

16        Q.   Let me quoting is person 2 also said.

17             "It is important to mention that the name of Ratko Mladic,

18     without any rank, was on internal lists which was logged for the unit

19     command, which was at the end of the month, each month, given to me by

20     Colonel Dragan Lalovic."

21             Again, do you accept that this is a reference to you?

22        A.   I accept that this is a reference to me, but then there was also

23     a reference to rank.  And all these lists that I signed were sent to the

24     General Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska in Banja Luka to the organ

25     in charge of exercising control so then this organ could also intervene.

Page 22028

 1     If somebody was not supposed to be on this list, they could intervene and

 2     say such and such a person should not be on that list.  Nobody

 3     intervened.  Nobody wanted to have General Mladic removed from that list.

 4        Q.   Sir, if you had not signed those lists, would the payment have

 5     gone through to General Mladic?

 6        A.   Had I not signed these lists, somebody else would have signed

 7     them and he would have certainly have received that.  And if I wouldn't

 8     have received it, it wasn't only General Mladic who would not have

 9     received his salary, nobody from the unit would have received his salary,

10     you see?  Actually --

11        Q.   Sir --

12        A.   -- it was not a salary.  It was a compensation.

13        Q.   -- a few minutes ago when I asked you did you ever authorise

14     payments to General Mladic?

15             "A.  No, no."

16             Is that answer true?

17        A.   Well, I signed this, that General Mladic was present in the unit.

18     That does not mean that I approved the payment.  That's what I mean.

19     Somebody else is approving the payment.  Had General Mladic not had an

20     order on appointment, I could have signed this list who knows how many

21     times, but he never would have received it had he not had an appointment

22     decision.  That is why I stated what I stated to you.

23        Q.   Person 3 gave information that payments for Mladic were collected

24     for him by officers stationed at Topcider barracks.  Would these officers

25     likely be your subordinates which you referred to earlier as being

Page 22029

 1     billeted at Topcider?

 2        A.   I don't know who collected it.  If that's true, I suppose it was

 3     his secretary or somebody.

 4        Q.   These were soldiers that collected the -- his payments.  Let me

 5     just tell you something else person number 3 said:

 6             "I don't know if the above described method of paying salaries

 7     was regulated in some rule-book.  I did it by the oral order of

 8     Unit Commander Dragan Lalovic."

 9             Do you accept that person number 3 is referring to you?

10        A.   Yes, he is referring to me.  But that is regulated by the

11     rule-book.  It could not have been done on my verbal order.  Everybody

12     knows how salaries and compensation sayings are received.

13        Q.   Do you acknowledge that you gave an oral order for payments to be

14     made to General Mladic at the time he was a fugitive?

15        A.   Could you please repeat that question.

16             MR. LUKIC:  I would object.  It's asked and answered.

17             MR. GROOME:

18        Q.   Do you --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  It is.

20             Please proceed, Mr. Groome.

21             MR. GROOME:

22        Q.   Do you accept the truth of what person number 3 has said about

23     receiving an oral order from you to pay -- make a payment to

24     General Mladic?

25        A.   What person 3 said is not true.  It's not true that I verbally

Page 22030

 1     decided how compensation would be given to General Mladic.  I couldn't

 2     have done that.  It's governed by rules and regulations, how salaries are

 3     paid out and how they are received.  That person is not right.

 4        Q.   Sir, do you recognise the name of Drazen Milovanovic?

 5        A.   Drazen Milovanovic?  No.  I can't remember.

 6        Q.   Do you recognise the name of Dragan Jakovljevic?

 7        A.   No.  No, you have to explain who they are.

 8        Q.   Both of these men were young soldiers guarding an underground

 9     shelter in Topcider.  On the 5th of October, 2004, both were killed.  A

10     military commission headed by Vuk Tufegdzic investigated the killings and

11     said that Jakovljevic killed Milovanovic and then committed suicide.  Do

12     you now recall who these two men were?

13        A.   I remember what you're talking about, but I heard it from media

14     reports.

15        Q.   A second investigation was carried out by the High Council of

16     Defence of Serbia and Montenegro?

17             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, Mr. Groome.

18             You were earlier asked do you recognise the name of

19     Drazen Milovanovic.  You said Drazen Milovanovic?  No, I can't remember.

20             Do you recognise the name of Dragan Jakovljevic?  No.  No, you

21     have to explain who they are.

22             And two minutes later you say yes, I read these names in the

23     media.  I heard from media reports.  I remember what you're talking about

24     but I heard from media reports.  And they were so extensive, weren't

25     they, these media reports?  Weren't they?

Page 22031

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When the gentleman asked me for the

 2     first time about these name, I really couldn't remember.  But when he

 3     started telling the story about the Topcider barracks, I remembered the

 4     cause because I learned from media reports what had happened.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Being so close to what your previous job was,

 6     nothing didn't ring a bell at all you heard these names?  Where even I,

 7     as newspaper reader, have read about that story so many times, including

 8     names.  And you, so close to your previous job, had no idea about these

 9     names?  Is that your evidence?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, sir, I don't know -- I don't

11     know what I have to do with these people and how am I supposed to

12     remember their names?  By that time, I had been retired for a long time.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I do understand that it was nothing of special

14     interest to you, even not in relation to your previous job, if I

15     understand you well?

16             Mr. Groome, you may proceed.

17             MR. GROOME:

18        Q.   A second investigation was carried out by the High Council of

19     Defence of Serbia and Montenegro headed by Bozidar Prelevic.  The

20     investigation concluded that both men were murdered by a third person.

21     Now the parents of these two young soldiers have repeatedly stated their

22     belief that their sons were murdered on a military base in Topcider

23     because they inadvertently learned that Mladic was hiding there.  In an

24     interview in 2013 to Balkan Insight, the father of Dragan Jakovljevic

25     told them:

Page 22032

 1             "'A month ago we got a letter signed by the former security of

 2     the ICTY indictee, in which it was described what happened that day.  The

 3     letter says that Mladic was present that day in the barracks and that our

 4     two boys noticed him,' said Janko Jakovljevic, the father of one of the

 5     dead soldiers in July last year.  Jakovljevic said that Mladic requested

 6     that the two soldiers be killed."

 7             As a former member of Mladic's security team who is at this time

 8     still on lists because it was believed that you were still participating

 9     in sheltering him, were you also aware that the soldiers were ordered to

10     be killed because they found out that Mladic was hiding at Topcider?

11        A.   I didn't even know that installation at Topcider existed until

12     that happened, until this happened.  That's one.  And, second, I had been

13     retired by that time for a long time.  I have nothing do with it, and I

14     can't believe it is as you represent it.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  It seems, Mr. Lukic, that Mr. Mladic wanted to

16     consult one counsel.

17             No, no, we're not taking a break.  You may consult with counsel,

18     write a little note, or we'll continue with the examination.  And switch

19     off your microphone.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic, Mr. Mladic you remain -- Mr. Mladic --

22             THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]

23             Could you please remove Mr. Mladic from the courtroom.

24     Mr. Mladic should be removed from the courtroom immediately.

25             We go into closed session.  We go into closed session.

Page 22033

 1     Mr. Mladic is to be removed from the courtroom.

 2                           [Defence counsel confer]

 3                           [Private session]

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15                           [Open session]

16             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

18             MR. GROOME:  Your Honours I'll conclude my questions there.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  You'll conclude your questions.

20             Mr. Lukic, any need for further questions.

21             MR. LUKIC:  Just several questions, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We are a little bit going beyond the time, but

23     I take it that there was such an urgent request for the witness to be

24     able to leave, I see nodding yes from the booth.

25             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

Page 22034

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

 2                           Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] My learned friend Groome was trying to clarify

 4     something with you but I don't believe it has been cleared up completely.

 5             In your opinion, both in the FRY and in Republika Srpska, when

 6     did it become illegal to help or guard Ratko Mladic?  Let me try to help

 7     you -- let me try to read what you said.  Page 74, line 13 it reads -- I

 8     will be reading in English and you will receive interpretation.

 9             [In English] "As far as I know, General Mladic became a wanted

10     man in Republika Srpska in May 2000, roughly at that time in the

11     territory of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia ..."

12             [Interpretation] I'm only interested if the year is correct here.

13        A.   It was in 2001.  If I said 2000 earlier, then it was a slip of

14     the tongue.  In fact, wait a moment.  2002.  I apologise.

15        Q.   I think that's what you said.

16        A.   After so many dates and years, I made a mistake.

17        Q.   Let's move on to finish this quickly.

18             You know that the president of Republika Srpska, Mr. Sarovic was

19     relieved of duty because he was expecting of helping General Mladic.  Do

20     you know that he is now conducting proceedings, a lawsuit because he had

21     managed to prove that he not been assisting General Mladic.  He is suing

22     for damages.

23        A.   I know that he was wrongly accused, but I didn't know about this

24     lawsuit.

25        Q.   In what kind of proceedings was it established that you were

Page 22035

 1     helping Mladic so that bans were placed on your travel, finances,

 2     et cetera?  Were you informed of these proceedings and were you a party

 3     to them?

 4        A.   No, I didn't know anything about it.  Nothing was explained to

 5     me.  It was only said to me that these measures were being applied

 6     against me because I am suspected of assisting war criminals.

 7        Q.   Regarding these payments, did you have the right to abolish

 8     somebody's acquired right and right to a salary or compensation or to

 9     institute somebody's right to receive salary when you were signing these

10     lists on which Mladic was?

11        A.   No.  I only said that I was signing those lists, and the lists

12     were only proof that somebody was present at work at that time on that

13     day or that month.

14        Q.   Do you know anything about the legal proceedings involving the

15     murders of these two soldiers at Topcider?

16        A.   No.  I'm only following media reports, if this is what you want

17     me to say here, I can.

18        Q.   No.  Do you know that in those proceedings General Mladic was

19     heard here in The Hague as a witness, not as a suspect?

20        A.   No, I didn't know that.

21        Q.   Thank you very much.  Thank you, General, for answering my

22     questions.

23                           Questioned by the Court:

24             JUDGE ORIE:  I would have one short question for you.

25             Earlier we looked at the statement of Mr. Milovanovic.  You refer

Page 22036

 1     that was about access to the archives and you remember that document,

 2     that statement, which is P6549.

 3             Now, in the beginning of that -- a little bit higher up on the

 4     same page, which is on -- and I'll read it for you, which is page 268 in

 5     English, General Milovanovic stated the following.

 6             "General Mladic and I put ourselves at the disposal of the VRS

 7     for up to six months and for the other six months to the Yugoslav army.

 8     General Mladic stayed in Crna Rijeka with his security guards who were

 9     supposed to protect him from being arrested by The Hague Tribunal.

10     Biljana Plavsic signed a decree about this.  In the beginning, the

11     commander of that powerful security, or security group, was

12     Colonel Ljubisa Beara because Mladic wished it so, and then it was

13     Colonel, and later General, Dragan Lalovic also because Mladic wished it

14     so."

15             In this statement, Mr. Milovanovic clearly says that the security

16     group was there to protect Mr. Mladic from being arrested by The Hague

17     Tribunal.  Did you -- and he mentions you as the second person at the

18     special request of Mr. Mladic, special wish of Mr. Mladic, to be -- to be

19     in command of that group.

20             Now, did it ever -- where Mr. Milovanovic appears to remember

21     that Madam Plavsic created this unit with, at least as one of its tasks,

22     to protect Mr. Mladic from being arrested in The Hague?  Is he wrong or

23     could you tell us or could you comment on this perception by

24     Mr. Milovanovic on what the purpose or at least one of the tasks of that

25     group was?

Page 22037

 1        A.   I don't know what he discussed with Mrs. Biljana Plavsic.  It's

 2     possible that that's what she said to him, but nothing like that in that

 3     form came to me from Biljana Plavsic.  As I've said before, my task was

 4     to provide security to the command post and to General Mladic.  Nobody

 5     said specifically that it was from The Hague Tribunal or anything else.

 6     I don't know what he discussed with Biljana Plavsic.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  No, whatever he discussed with her.  But apparently

 8     he has either on the basis of a discussion or by other means perceived

 9     this to be one of the tasks, and you say, I've got no idea about that.

10             And do I also understand that you deny that it was a specific

11     task for you to protect Mr. Mladic from getting arrested for The Hague?

12        A.   No, I'm not denying that.  We protected him and guarded him from

13     any and every threat.  So in that period if somebody wanted to arrest

14     him, it was our duty - and I've said this earlier today - to protect him,

15     and we would have done it under the circumstances where there was no

16     valid arrest warrant in the territory of our state.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I asked about whether it was a specific task for you

18     to take care that he would not be arrested for The Hague.  You say it was

19     not a specific task but it was included in our general task.  Is that

20     well understood?

21        A.   Yes, it's well understood.

22             Yes, Mr. Lukic has one more question for you.

23             Mr. Lukic, I tried to keep it short.  And we are dependent on the

24     benevolence of those surrounding us.  Yes.

25                           Further re-examination by Mr. Lukic:

Page 22038

 1             MR. LUKIC:

 2        Q.   Mr. Lalovic, do you know what was SFOR's mandate at the time?

 3     Was it SFOR's mandate to search for and arrest General Mladic?

 4        A.   I don't know what their mandate was.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome.

 6             MR. GROOME:  Unless he can establish a basis for this witness

 7     knowing about SFOR's mandate, I'd suggest he's asking for speculation.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Apart from that --

 9             MR. LUKIC:  But -- and we will find the documents and we should

10     check the mandate of SFOR for that time, and I'm sure that at that time

11     SFOR did not have mandate to search and arrest General Mladic.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, first of all, I did not talk about SFOR.

13     I just talked about being protected against arrest for The Hague.  So to

14     that extent my question doesn't trigger any SFOR issue.  And if you come

15     up with such --

16             MR. LUKIC:  I apologise.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  -- documents, Mr. Lukic, then of course the Chamber

18     will -- [Overlapping speakers] ...

19             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour, for giving me the opportunity

20     to pose this wrong question.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, well, that's very gentle of you.

22             Witness, this concludes your testimony.  We are happy that you'll

23     be able to travel back home again, which was your explicit wish.

24             Mr. Lalovic, I'd like to thank you very much for coming to

25     The Hague and for having answered all the questions that were put to you,

Page 22039

 1     put to you by the parties, put to you by the Bench, and I save you not

 2     only a safe return home but also a quick return home again.

 3             You may follow the usher.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

 5                           [The witness withdrew]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Not until after I have expressed our thanks to all

 7     those who are assisting us for -- enabling us to conclude the testimony

 8     of this witness.  We adjourn for the day and will resume tomorrow,

 9     Tuesday, the 3rd of June, in this same courtroom, I, at 9.30 in the

10     morning.

11                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.29 a.m.,

12                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 3rd day of June,

13                           2014, at 9.30 a.m.