1 Tuesday, 10 June 2014
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is the case
8 number IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 No preliminaries, therefore the witness can be escorted into the
12 [The witness takes the stand]
13 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Andan.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, I'd like to remind you that you
16 are still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning
17 of your testimony.
18 Ms. Bibles will now continue her cross-examination.
19 MS. BIBLES: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 WITNESS: DRAGOMIR ANDAN [Resumed]
21 [Witness answered through interpreter]
22 Cross-examination by Ms. Bibles: [Continued]
23 Q. Good morning, Mr. Andan. When we finished --
24 A. Good morning.
25 Q. When we finished on Friday, you answered questions about events
1 leading up to the operation against the Yellow Wasps. Before we go back
2 to that line of inquiry, I'd like to ask about some of the
3 paramilitary -- other paramilitary formations which were undermining the
4 war effort for which you had personal knowledge. Was one of these
5 paramilitary groups that you dealt with the Panthers led by Mauzer?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And, in fact, at one point during the summer of 1992, isn't it
8 true that you arrested or detained Mauzer?
9 A. In legal terms, it would be better to say that I brought him into
10 custody and that he was remanded.
11 Q. Is it true that his side-arm, a Heckler with a silencer, was
12 removed at this point in time?
13 A. Yes, that's correct.
14 Q. And would you agree that the underlying facts which led to this
15 bringing him into custody had to do with a large amount of stolen
16 property and the illegal detention of three Muslim men?
17 A. That first time when he was brought into custody, it did not have
18 to do directly with what you referred to just now. That first part had
19 to do with constant attacks and denying the Ministry of the Interior --
20 or, rather, not carrying out legal regulations in the municipality of
21 Bijeljina. That's why he was brought in for the first time.
22 Whereas the second time, it was based on the intelligence that we
23 had; namely, that certain illegally obtained goods were being stored and
24 that that warehouse should be entered, that we should check what is
25 there, and at that point in time we did not know that in part of this
1 cooling plant that hadn't been used at the time, that detained Muslims
2 were actually being held there in part of it.
3 Q. And addressing your attention to this second time, can you
4 describe whether it's true that the Panthers surrounded the police
5 station with tanks and weapons?
6 A. That's correct. Surrounded us because they were dissatisfied
7 with the fact that their supporters were being brought in; that is to
8 say, their fighters who were bringing looted goods in from the front
9 line. They surrounded us using all kinds of weapons, asking that we -
10 that is to say, Mr. Davidovic and I - should no longer be at the helm of
11 the security services centre in Bijeljina.
12 Q. Do you recall roughly when this occurred?
13 A. I think it was the month of July, before the operation in
15 Q. Can you confirm that once the police station was surrounded, you
16 were in that situation, that an agreement was reached in which Mauzer was
17 released but his side-arm was not given back to him?
18 A. Yes, that's right.
19 Q. Is it your opinion, based on your experience and dealings with
20 Mauzer, that he is a criminal?
21 A. Well, you see, I as a policeman ran a check on Mauzer. I did not
22 find him registered in police records. He did not have a criminal
23 record. But all the other manifestations that were there, all of the
24 things that happened during the war lead me to ascertain the fact that he
25 took advantage of the war in order to engage in criminal activity.
1 Q. Is it true that Mauzer was never prosecuted for offences that he
2 and his men committed in 1992?
3 A. When the premises were searched, the ones that you referred to a
4 moment ago, where we found the detained Muslims, a criminal report was
5 filed. I claim that with certainty. And it was sent to the prosecutor's
6 office. Now, why it was not dealt with any further than that, I really
7 cannot tell you.
8 Q. Just to make sure that we have a clear answer to the question,
9 you would agree or is it true that he was never prosecuted for those
11 A. No, he was not tried as far as I know.
12 Q. In terms of the stolen property that was recovered, your answer
13 as to what happened to that property was addressed in the
14 Stanisic/Zupljanin trial at transcript page 21444, lines 23 and 24. And
15 your answer was:
16 "Mauzer's unit should have been resubordinated to the VRS
17 according to the command structure and we gave these items to the army."
18 Do you stand by that answer today?
19 A. Yes. All the time we tried not to have Mauzer's paramilitary
20 unit in Bijeljina. We talked to Colonel Milic several times to have him
21 placed under control. Therefore, we called the members of the military
22 after we found what we found at the warehouse and the military police
23 took over everything that was found at that warehouse. It wasn't really
24 a warehouse, it was a cooling plant but they used it as a warehouse. So
25 it was handed over to the military police and an inventory was made.
1 Q. In terms of Mauzer's role with the VRS, let's go to 65 ter 1925,
2 a commendation of the VRS dated 9 March 1995.
3 MS. BIBLES: If we can go -- I believe it's just a one-page -- or
4 to the first page of the document.
5 Q. When the document comes up - yes, it's probably a good time to
6 put on your glasses - I'll ask if you know what type of document this is.
7 Mr. Andan, having been in the VRS for a number of years, are you
8 familiar with this type of document?
9 A. Yes, I'm familiar with this type of document.
10 Q. And what is it?
11 A. If you allow me, I'm going to make a brief introduction. I will
12 try to be as brief as possible. In that year, in 1992, towards the end,
13 as far as I know, perhaps it was September or October, Mauzer was
14 included in the Army of Republika Srpska in the Eastern Bosnian Corps;
15 that is to say, from then onwards, it is the VRS that had control over
17 This document speaks about his combat activities at a given point
18 in time. I mean, he --
19 Q. Mr. Andan --
20 A. -- demonstrated bravery and decisiveness and --
21 Q. -- we're getting ahead of ourselves, and I guess I should ask it
22 a different way: You will agree that this document is a commendation
23 being given by Mr. Mladic or General Mladic at the time; is that correct?
24 A. That's right.
25 Q. You see in the document that the Mauzer combat group was being
1 commended specifically for toughness, chivalrous and gallant conduct.
2 Now, Mr. Andan, that does not comport with the description of the Mauzer
3 group that you dealt with in 1992. Does it bother you at all that a
4 criminal like Mauzer received such high praise?
5 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bibles, shall we make a distinction between a
6 person and a group to start with? And second, if you just want to jump
7 from 1992 to 1995 in a totally different area, perhaps don't stop the
8 witness if he makes the bridge which you should have made.
9 Please proceed.
10 MS. BIBLES:
11 Q. Mr. Andan, you have given a description of what happened with
12 Mauzer or Mauzer's group as they went on, and my question was: Even
13 acknowledging that, that there were different activities, knowing what
14 you know about Mauzer and the Panthers in 1992, did it bother you that he
15 went on to receive this kind of praise in the war?
16 A. I view this as a commendation to the unit. I agree with you that
17 he did not deserve this kind of commendation, but the unit as a unit did
18 deserve a commendation.
19 MS. BIBLES: Your Honour, I would tender 65 ter 1925.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1925 receives number P6579,
22 Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: I have one question for you, sir. This group that
25 surrounded the police station with a tank, is it the same group of
1 Mauzer's that was being commended in 1995?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Bibles.
5 MS. BIBLES:
6 Q. Next I'd like to turn and ask about your information and contacts
7 with members of Arkan's Men. Is it correct that in Bijeljina, in 1992,
8 Arkan's Men unlawfully took a large quantity of weapons from the police
9 station that had been confiscated from the Muslims?
10 A. Not only weapons, that's true, they took all those weapons,
11 everything that suited them, they took that. They took a large number of
12 traffic documents, driver's licenses, stamps, and other documents that
13 were blank. So they took all of this that can be found in any legal
14 department, if you will.
15 Q. Based upon your work in 1992, do you think that there was a link
16 between Arkan's Men and Mauzer's Panthers at that time?
17 A. I think. I cannot say with certainty now. I don't think that it
18 was a link then, because I know once when Arkan visited Bijeljina that
19 some colleagues said to me that he had some kind of conflict with Mauzer
20 and that he threatened him at that point, but all of this is indirect
21 knowledge. It's not that I know it personally.
22 Q. Mr. Andan, obviously we've discussed your testimony in
23 Stanisic/Zupljanin. Do you recall answering similar questions during
24 that trial?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And the transcript references would be 21653, starting at line 4.
2 You were asked the question:
3 "And what was the relationship, if any, that you know about
4 between Mauzer's group and Arkan's Men? Were they in competition with
5 each other, were they co-operating with each other? What do you know
6 about that?"
7 Your answer was:
8 "I'll begin with a short introduction, so I hope you won't mind a
9 longer answer.
10 "At that time the Bijeljina police station was exposed to strong
11 influence by Arkan's group. Through operative work, we learned that they
12 had unlawfully taken a large quantity of weapons, both long-barrelled and
13 short-barrelled weapons, that had been confiscated from the Muslims.
14 They were registering these weapons at the Bijeljina police station
15 without anyone interfering. They were taking driving licences, traffic
16 permits, weapons permits from the police station, even blank forms for
17 such licences and permits.
18 "I think that there was a link between the Serb Volunteer Guard
19 commanded by Arkan, and the Panthers commanded by Ljubisa Savic, also
20 known as Mauzer. It was my conclusion that I drew from various
21 conversations and interviews that they were in direct communication."
22 Can you tell us whether your opinion about this connection or
23 link has changed since your testimony in Stanisic and Zupljanin?
24 A. No, it hasn't changed, but I know for sure that when the war
25 conflict broke out, there was this "love" and it went on probably until a
1 moment when a conflict broke out for this or that reason. But at any
2 rate, at the moment when I arrived in Bijeljina, that was July, that love
3 was not the same as it was in the beginning of the war. So there is no
4 change in my statement today as compared to that.
5 Q. Perhaps we could clear up this confusion. Is it your answer
6 today that there was a link between these two groups, Arkan's Men and
7 Mauzer's Panthers?
8 A. There was.
9 Q. All right. Thank you. I'd next like to address how groups like
10 Arkan's Men and Mauzer's Panthers originally came to Bosnia. Are you
11 aware that members of the Bosnian Serb leadership invited groups like
12 this into Bosnia at the beginning of the war?
13 A. I was still in Sarajevo then when Arkan entered Bijeljina
14 together with his unit. When three members of the Presidency,
15 Biljana Plavsic, Fikret Abdic - now, was he a member of the Presidency,
16 but he was on this delegation - and the minister of defence, a Croat,
17 when they came to Bijeljina, I know that on television then, as far as I
18 can remember, Biljana Plavsic stated that she had invited Arkan to come
19 to Bijeljina. If I remember that period, 1992, correctly, it could have
20 even been the month of March. So Biljana took upon herself the
21 responsibility of having Arkan invited to Bosnia-Herzegovina.
22 Q. I'd next like to go to Zvornik which was where the Yellow Wasps
23 operation took place. Were you aware of the expulsion of Muslims from
24 Kozluk in Zvornik?
25 A. When intelligence was being carried out in the field, of course
1 we learned about that, too.
2 MS. BIBLES: If we could have 65 ter 19766 on our screen, please.
3 Q. Mr. Andan, this is a Drina Corps command report from
4 17 December 1992. I'll first ask if you have seen this report before.
5 A. No, I haven't seen this before.
6 Q. I'd ask you to turn your attention to the bottom of the first
7 page --
8 MS. BIBLES: And that should be in both languages.
9 Q. -- in the paragraph that reads:
10 "With the arrival of paramilitary organisations to the
11 Zvornik municipality, particularly the arrival of Arkan and his people,
12 this territory was liberated from the Turks. Turks made up 60 per cent
13 of the municipality's population and it has now been cleansed and
14 replaced with an ethnically pure Serb population."
15 I first want to clarify that in this command report the word
16 "Turks" referred to Muslims; is that true?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And second, isn't it true that the actions of the paramilitaries
19 against Muslims and Croats was supported and commended by the VRS in the
21 A. I don't know of any such cases, but the local authorities did do
23 Q. Mr. Andan, wouldn't you agree that this Drina Corps document is
24 in fact noting in a positive manner that Zvornik was ethnically cleansed
25 by paramilitaries?
1 A. Yes, but it also refers to looting and taking away the property
2 seized by paramilitary formations.
3 Q. So, Mr. Andan, isn't it true that the actions that were supported
4 and commended by the VRS in this document were the actions where they
5 were ethnically cleansing areas like Zvornik?
6 A. We cannot generalise as far as the VRS is concerned. This is
7 just a unit - I mean, a local unit - that is doing that. I cannot say on
8 a general level that the army had accepted that, that the Main Staff had
9 accepted that, and that he commended that kind of conduct. But it is
10 evident -- I mean, now, where is this here? Which formation? This
11 document was written, yes, and it's in the superlative, that is to say,
12 the part that refers to that cleansing of the Muslim population.
13 Q. So, Mr. Andan, wouldn't you agree that this document sets up a
14 scenario that you saw over and over again in Bosnia, and that is the
15 paramilitaries were welcomed and praised for their actions in ethnically
16 cleansing areas, but when they became problems, it was when they were
17 looting and stealing from Serbs; isn't that true?
18 A. I wouldn't agree with you. From the moment when I joined the
19 Main Staff, at regular briefings concern was expressed or, rather, there
20 were efforts made to eliminate paramilitary formations from all of the
21 areas. In my previous testimony here, I said that they had not been
22 everywhere in all the territories that were under the control of the Army
23 of Republika Srpska. Paramilitaries chose affluent places where they
24 could loot and transfer the looted goods to Serbia and elsewhere. That's
25 how they functioned throughout 1992, I would say.
1 Q. Mr. Andan, isn't it true that by the time you were in the VRS,
2 which would have been September 1992, that the paramilitaries' work in
3 those affluent regions in cleansing the area had been completed?
4 A. No, it wasn't completed. My task, if I had not been transferred
5 to the Army Republika Srpska under the circumstances that you are
6 familiar with, would have been to go to Foca with the forces of the
7 Ministry of the Interior, and we were to deal with the paramilitaries in
8 Foca, Pelcer [phoen], and that siege should have spread across the
9 territory of Republika Srpska. In 1992, there were a lot of places where
10 there were paramilitary formations.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bibles, you put to the witness earlier that --
12 you asked him whether this was not reflecting a scenario which you would
13 find elsewhere as well, including that the paramilitaries were welcomed,
14 but then they became a problem when they were looting and stealing from
16 Now, from the portion you read to the witness, it -- I do not see
17 that they were looting and stealing from Serbs, rather that they were
18 perhaps looting and stealing. Could you tell us or put to the witness
19 where you found what you said this -- what this document demonstrates?
20 The witness hasn't seen it before, he told us, so it's only fair to him
21 that you read to him the portions you are implicitly referring to.
22 MS. BIBLES: Yes, Your Honour. Perhaps I was jumping ahead. At
23 line -- transcript line 10 or page 10, lines 23 and 24, the witness
24 himself went into the looting and taking away of properties.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 MS. BIBLES: I agree, however, it does not say regarding Serbs.
2 So I'll clarify that question.
3 JUDGE ORIE: So that's one. And second, the document doesn't say
4 so. So you are --
5 MS. BIBLES: If --
6 JUDGE ORIE: -- seeking confirmation of a -- more or less a
7 standard scenario, where the factual description of that scenario is
8 missing in this respect and where the document, at least what you read to
9 him, does not say it either.
10 MS. BIBLES: It will be -- I'll --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please --
12 MS. BIBLES: I'll withdraw that question.
13 JUDGE ORIE: -- keep that in the back of your mind.
14 Yes, please proceed.
15 MS. BIBLES: There are a number of documents we'll be looking at,
16 Your Honour, and I apologise for jumping the gun, so to speak, there.
17 Q. Mr. Andan --
18 MS. BIBLES: And actually, first I'd like to tender 19766.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Document 19766 receives number P7580,
21 Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it 75 or 65? Madam Registrar? Is it --
24 THE REGISTRAR: I apologise, it's P6580, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: And admitted under that number.
1 MS. BIBLES: Thank you.
2 Q. We'll return a little later to more of the details about
3 paramilitaries, but I would like to go back now to the operation against
4 the Yellow Wasps. On Friday you indicated that the operation started in
5 the second half of July. Now, you've indicated some personal challenges
6 in remembering exact dates, so let's take a look at a document that might
7 refresh your memory.
8 MS. BIBLES: If we could have 65 ter 1D2255 on our screens.
9 Q. And, Mr. Andan, this appears to be a report drafted by you on the
10 1st of August, 1992. As this has come on our screens, have I described
11 that document accurately?
12 A. No, this is not the right document. This is a combat report.
13 Q. Who drafted this combat report?
14 A. Our daily task was to inform the ministry about the situation on
15 the front line in our area of responsibility.
16 Q. Let's see. This is the correct document. Let's --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Let's see. Mr. Andan, the question was whether this
18 report was drafted by you. That's the simple question. Is it, whether
19 it's the right or the wrong document, the one you have on your screen --
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I can remember, the
21 question and the document should both refer to the paramilitaries in
22 Zvornik and their arrest. However, this is a report from the front line
23 for that day. If I understood the Prosecutor properly. And I did draft
24 this document -- or, rather, I signed it.
25 JUDGE ORIE: That was the question, I think.
1 Please proceed, Ms. Bibles.
2 MS. BIBLES:
3 Q. Mr. Andan, I'll --
4 A. I don't think that that was the question. It wasn't the
5 question, but you can check. I apologise.
6 Q. Mr. Andan, I'll be -- try to be very specific in my questions so
7 that we don't have confusion. I ask you to look at the penultimate
8 sentence in this document that reads:
9 "The operation to mop up Zvornik is yielding positive results
10 with regard to security and general situation in Zvornik."
11 I have three questions. First, reading this and looking at the
12 date, are you able now to tell us when the operation against the
13 Yellow Wasps actually began?
14 A. I apologise, I don't have that sentence here. Do you want me to
15 read the document to you?
16 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any confusion as to what the witness has on
17 the screen and what we have on our screen?
18 Do you see a document with some handwritten text at the top and
19 at -- there is a -- the line just above where the main text starts reads:
20 "Your dispatch number 10-11/92 of 17 July 1992."
21 Is that the document you have before you?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, now I can see it. I have that
24 "The operation to mop up Zvornik is yielding positive results
25 with regard to the security and general situation in Zvornik."
1 Yes, this is the document. I apologise. Could you please repeat
2 your question.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Please, Ms. Bibles, repeat your question.
4 MS. BIBLES:
5 Q. Mr. Andan, reading this document with the date, are you now able
6 to tell us when the operation against the Yellow Wasps would have begun?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Can you tell us that date?
9 A. I can't remember. I don't know.
10 Q. Would it have been a few days before this document was drafted,
11 or weeks, or can you give us a rough time-frame?
12 A. I don't think that it was weeks, but it was days before.
13 Q. Can you tell us whether the VRS was involved at this stage in the
14 operation against the Yellow Wasps?
15 A. Yes, they were involved.
16 Q. You were asked to comment on this particular sentence when you
17 testified in the Stanisic/Zupljanin trial, and you said in part:
18 "... we had practically completed this operation by wiping out
19 these and actually expelling them from the Zvornik municipality, these
20 paramilitaries ..."
21 Do you stand by that answer as to this sentence?
22 A. Yes, it was completed at the moment.
23 MS. BIBLES: If we could now turn to 65 ter 17386, which is --
24 Q. It appears to be another document that you drafted regarding the
25 Yellow Wasps operation.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Any plans for the document which is on our screen?
2 MS. BIBLES: I will tender, Your Honours, 65 ter 1D2255.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D2255 receives number P6581,
5 Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
7 Please proceed.
8 MS. BIBLES:
9 Q. Mr. Andan, have you been able to see enough of this document to
10 determine whether this is one that you drafted?
11 A. Yes, I did.
12 Q. What is this document, just briefly?
13 A. This is a criminal report filed against Vojin Vuckovic and others
14 who were all members of the paramilitary formation in Zvornik.
15 Q. Just to make sure that I'm clear, is this the charging document
16 charging the offences against the Yellow Wasps that you've described in
17 your statement and your testimony?
18 A. Yes, there are also crimes that they were charged with. All of
19 those things that they had committed in Zvornik.
20 Q. Does the first part of this document, I believe the first two and
21 a half pages, name those individuals who were charged with the offence?
22 A. I believe that there are several names there and then further
23 down it says "and others," if I remember the document well. We could not
24 name all of them, so we named only the most important ones and added
1 MS. BIBLES: If we could just turn to page 2, briefly.
2 Q. And let you take a look to see if that language is there.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, there is only one page in B/C/S.
4 MS. BIBLES:
5 Q. Perhaps I'll ask a question, and if you don't recall -- while we
6 try to find the rest of the B/C/S translation of this document. If you
7 don't recall, we'll come back to that question later.
8 Following the list of people charged, did you then next go to the
9 charge that these people were facing? Did you describe the offence?
10 A. I believe so.
11 Q. Is it correct that they were charged only with a violation of
12 Article 151, aggravated robbery?
13 A. I don't see the document, but if this is what you're claiming I
14 am willing to agree with you.
15 Q. We'll come back to that question once we have the full B/C/S
16 translation of the document. In the meantime we'll turn to 65 ter 9706,
17 which appears to be another document that you authored regarding the
18 Yellow Wasps operation as well.
19 Have you been able to determine whether this is a document that
20 you authored?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Can you tell us what the purpose was for this document?
23 A. It was our common practice before the war that once an operation
24 was completed, it had to be analysed and then information was drafted.
25 That information would contain all of the most important elements of the
1 operation and then people would be informed, the heads of the Ministry of
2 the Interior. And if that operation was significant, also the Presidency
3 of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina was also informed. And in this
4 case, it was sent to all the relevant bodies in Republika Srpska. Due to
5 the significance of the entire activity, we resorted to the old tested
6 way when it came to informing the heads of the government and the
7 Ministry of the Interior.
8 MS. BIBLES: If we could turn to page 2 in both versions.
9 Q. I'd like you to look at this page. And is it correct near the
10 top of the page you detail the items which were recovered from the group
11 including weapons, cars, and gold?
12 A. Yes, the second paragraph, if I'm not mistaken.
13 Q. And then looking down to the bottom of the page, I have questions
14 about a paragraph where it explains that persons will be detained pending
15 charges and that others will be turned over to Serb armed forces or to
16 the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia depending on their citizenship.
17 First, why were Bosnian Serbs being turned over to the Serb armed
19 A. Well, they were military conscripts and there was a priority to
20 recruit them to the military forces. That's why they were handed over to
21 them. This means that they were not sent to serve a punishment. They
22 were put at the disposal of the Army of Republika Srpska so that they
23 could be referred to various units where they would then serve.
24 Q. Can you tell us why Serbian citizens were deported rather than
25 being prosecuted?
1 A. If I understand the criminal report well, those who were
2 responsible for all those criminal activities - there were 11 of them -
3 they were charged. And for the others who were members of the
4 paramilitary formation were not charged and that's why they were
5 deported; in other words, we could not obtain evidence to the effect that
6 those people had indeed committed crimes.
7 Q. I'd like to turn now to the last page in the last paragraph of
8 your report, and I draw your attention to the information that
9 Dusko Vuckovic, known as Repic, was committing massacre, genocide, over
10 citizens of Muslim ethnicity. In this paragraph you explain that Serb
11 armed forces, MPs, and national security operatives were taking care of
12 this information. Did you follow-up on this information?
13 A. Well, I didn't do any follow-up. I was not in a position to do
14 that because very soon after that I was removed from the MUP; i.e., I was
15 chased away, to be more precise. So I was in no position to do any
16 follow-up. But I know for a fact that this kind of information, either
17 verbatim or somewhat different, was sent to the Ministry of the Republic
18 of Serbia. I'm talking about Vuckovic and his brother Repic and the
19 crimes that they had committed.
20 Q. Were you aware that Repic confessed to the military police
21 regarding these killings in 1992?
22 A. I'm not aware of that detail, but I know that based on the
23 results of our activities he was tried in Sabac and sentenced.
24 Q. We'll step through this in a focused manner.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I --
1 MS. BIBLES: Yes.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- put one question in the meantime just to
4 You said a minute ago, Mr. Andan, and I quote:
5 "I'm talking about Vuckovic and his brother Repic ..."
6 When I'm looking at the document, I see here "the information
7 obtained by" some units "indicate that Dusan Vuckovic, also known as
8 Repic" was committing massacre." It seems to be the same person,
9 Vuckovic and Repic, or are these two different persons?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were two Vuckovic brothers,
11 Vojin and Dusan also known as Repic, if I'm not mistaken. Vojin was
12 known as Zuco and his brother was known as Repic.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. This clarifies it.
14 And I have another question. On page 19, lines 20 to 22, you
16 "If I understand the criminal report well, those who were
17 responsible for all those criminal activities - there were 11 of them -
18 they were charged."
19 Can you tell us what you know about any prosecution, trial,
20 sentencing of these 11 people? What happened to them after they were
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In legal terms, the Ministry of the
23 Interior sends a criminal report to the prosecutor's office and that's
24 where its responsibilities stop. That was up to the prosecutor's office.
25 Neither as private persons nor officially did we ever want to do any
1 follow-up. We were not allowed to do that. But in the meantime, I heard
2 that they were never tried.
3 There was a lady called Biljana, I don't know what her last name
4 was but I know she was a prosecutor and she was the one who took over the
5 case. I believe that she is still a prosecutor in the prosecutor's
6 office of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. She is still a prosecutor.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I understand from your answer that you heard in
8 the meantime that they were never tried. What is the source of this
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard it from some private
11 sources. I spoke to Davidovic, for example. I joined the army, we met
12 somewhere. They were released. And around my house I saw Zuco
13 observing, he was looking for me, and then I inquired about them, and
14 then I heard that there were no charges against them and that they were
15 all actually let go. They were released.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
17 JUDGE ORIE: I still have a few questions for you in this
18 context, Witness.
19 On the basis of the document which is now on the screen, which is
20 dated the 4th of August, you explained to us that the persons mentioned
21 in there on page 2 in the English, Vojin Vuckovic, Dusan Vuckovic,
22 Tanaskovic, et cetera, that they were to be sent back to the units --
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Tanaskovic, yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That they were to be sent back to their units
25 because there was insufficient evidence to prosecute them. Is that well
2 Perhaps we have a look at page 2 in English and most likely
3 page 2 in B/C/S as well, but I'm not certain about that. Yes.
4 You explained the line saying these person will be detained until
5 criminal reports, et cetera, and then later it states:
6 "Depending on the citizenship they will be turned over to the
7 Serb armed forces or deported to the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia."
8 Now, you said: We did that because they had to be sent back to
9 their units because there was no sufficient evidence to prosecute them.
10 Is that correctly understood?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, you didn't understand me
12 properly. Perhaps I can explain, if I may.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 11 people who were handed over
15 to the prosecutor's office did not not belong to the group of the others.
16 In other words, these 11 were tried. The others were not because no
17 evidence could be obtained to the effect that they had committed crimes.
18 Those who were citizens of Serbia were deported and those who were from
19 Republika Srpska were placed at the disposal of the Army of
20 Republika Srpska. So we were talking about two groups: The first one
21 that was tried and the other group which was never tried.
22 JUDGE ORIE: You mean the other 54? We're talking about the
23 other 54 that were sent back to their units.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct, yes.
25 JUDGE ORIE: And these ones, they were -- the 11, they were kept
1 in detention for how long?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the time, police detention could
3 go on for 72 hours, I think; that is to say, without a prosecutor being
4 involved, the police could remand people in custody for up to 72 hours.
5 Once we would take statements from these persons and collect witness
6 statements, when we'd complete the entire file, then the police detention
7 would be done.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but you -- I think the charges were filed on
9 the 28th of August, that is, 24 days after this report was filed. And it
11 "These persons will be detained until the criminal reports are
12 filed to the prosecutor's office in charge thereof in Bijeljina."
13 But you say they could be kept in detention for three days, but
14 you more or less announce here that you'll keep them in detention until
15 the charges have been -- the criminal reports are filed to the
16 prosecutor's office. When was that then done?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The further procedure would be as
18 follows: If the three days would be up, then we'd address the
19 prosecutor's office and then we'd ask them to decide on detention. In
20 the first stage it would be one month, and then if necessary it could go
21 on. I as a legalist believe that if police detention would be up after
22 72 hours, then we would ask the prosecutor's office, and then they would
24 JUDGE ORIE: Was that done in this case?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Probably, yes. If you have
1 mentioned this. But then I don't believe that they could have been
2 detained for a month. When all the documents are put together, that can
3 be seen. But I claim if police detention was up after three days, then
4 we would address the prosecutor's office and then they would continue
5 their detention and that would be it.
6 JUDGE ORIE: But I'd like to know what happens rather than --
7 because on the 4th of August you write: "These persons will be detained
8 until the criminal the reports are filed," I do understand that's for a
9 couple of days, and I just want to know what happened after that. Were
10 these reports filed, were they detained any further? If you know.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the moment when we set up this
12 file, then they were released, then it was the prosecutor's office that
13 took them over, if you will, and they were the ones who released them.
14 JUDGE ORIE: So you transferred them to the prosecutor's office,
15 and the prosecutor's office said: Let's release them.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You know what the prosecutor did,
17 but I told you about this part; that is to say, how far our powers went.
18 Once they are handed over to the prosecutor's office, we have nothing to
19 do with it any longer.
20 JUDGE ORIE: No, and they were released. That's -- I'm not
21 saying you released them, but the fact was that they were then released
22 after a few days. Thank you.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Obviously. Obviously.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 Ms. Bibles, I'm looking at the clock. It's time for a break
2 Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.
3 We'd like to see you back in 20 minutes, Mr. Andan.
4 [The witness stands down]
5 JUDGE ORIE: We take a break and will resume at five minutes to
7 --- Recess taken at 10.36 a.m.
8 --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.
9 JUDGE ORIE: While we are waiting for the witness to be escorted
10 into the courtroom, Ms. Bibles, according to our bookkeeping system, that
11 is, Madam Registrar's bookkeeping system, you've got one hour and
12 15 minutes left.
13 MS. BIBLES: Thank you, Your Honour. I understand from
14 Ms. Stewart that I might actually have a minute less than that, but I do
15 anticipate --
16 JUDGE ORIE: No, well, then to be quite honest, one hour,
17 16 minutes was reported to me and not 1 hour, 14 minutes, but --
18 [The witness takes the stand]
19 JUDGE ORIE: -- the truth is always in the middle. One hour,
20 15 minutes.
21 Please proceed.
22 MS. BIBLES: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Q. Mr. Andan, I promised you that we would go back to a document --
24 MS. BIBLES: And that would be 65 ter 17386.
25 Q. -- once we believe that we had corrected the uploading issue with
1 the B/C/S section. I'd like to do that now.
2 MS. BIBLES: If we could go to page 3 of 17386.
3 Q. Mr. Andan, is it your recollection that we were discussing the
4 charges that you had drafted for the Yellow Wasps? Is that your
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. As you look at this page, does this help refresh your
8 recollection or do we need to go to the next page?
9 A. It's all right.
10 MS. BIBLES: I'm not sure that we have the right page in English
11 up. Perhaps we could go to the next page, please.
12 JUDGE ORIE: What you are looking for, Ms. Bibles?
13 MS. BIBLES: This document does not appear to like us today. Are
14 we on page 3 in e-court on both pages? There we go. We're in the
15 correct page on English. Page 5 in B/C/S.
16 Q. Mr. Andan, does this page contain the charges which you drafted
17 regarding the Yellow Wasps?
18 A. Yes, this is a description of the crimes that they had committed.
19 Q. And are we reading this correctly at the top of the page that
20 they were charged with a violation of Article 151, which would be
21 aggravated robbery?
22 A. I don't see that article here. Maybe you can see it, but I see
23 the description.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Three lines from the bottom in the first paragraph,
25 just above "opis djela" [phoen]. You found it, Witness?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. I have.
2 MS. BIBLES:
3 Q. Are we correct that they were charged with violations of
4 Article 151, aggravated robbery?
5 A. Yes, that's evident.
6 MS. BIBLES: And I'd next ask that we go to 65 ter 30779, which
7 is a statement taken from Dusko Vuckovic from the 4th of August, 1992.
8 Q. Mr. Andan, as this document is coming up on the screen, I believe
9 you described that there were two Vuckovic brothers?
10 A. Yes, Vojin and Dusan.
11 Q. Do you see the name of one of the two brothers on the document
12 that has come up on the screen?
13 A. Yes, Dusko.
14 Q. Is he the one known as Repic?
15 A. Yes, that's him.
16 Q. Could you take a moment to look at this document that's in front
17 of you. And I would direct your attention to the bottom of the first
18 page --
19 MS. BIBLES: And I will turn the page.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Then we have to scroll down in the B/C/S.
21 MS. BIBLES: Yes. Thank you.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Have we indeed seen the last -- the bottom of the
23 first page before it was turned to the second page?
24 MS. BIBLES: Ah.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, not fully.
1 MS. BIBLES:
2 Q. Do you need to go back to the first page and read the bottom?
3 JUDGE ORIE: And could we do the same in English.
4 MS. BIBLES: Yes.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I've seen it.
6 MS. BIBLES:
7 Q. Okay.
8 MS. BIBLES: If we could go back to the second page.
9 Q. Is it correct that this is a statement in which Repic admits
10 committing murders of non-Serbs at Celopek?
11 A. Yes, but on this page, Marko Pavlovic cannot be commander of the
12 police station. He was head of the TO staff in Zvornik. Ratko was
13 commander of the police station in Zvornik, whereas he here admits that
14 he committed the crime of murdering the civilian population in Zvornik,
15 non-Serb civilian population.
16 Q. Mr. Andan, I want to clarify the record. And first, to be fair
17 to the record, Dusko Vuckovic was tried and convicted in Serbia after the
18 war in 1996 of these offences. Is that your understanding?
19 A. Yes. I think he was tried in Sabac and that he was sentenced to
20 I don't know how many years in prison.
21 Q. But going back to August of 1992, is it true that he was released
22 along with the rest of the Yellow Wasps who you had arrested?
23 A. I don't think he was released. I think that we handed him over
24 to the military police, as far as I can remember. And I think that that
25 is contained in some documents, including this criminal report. Person
1 number 9 was handed over to the military police.
2 Q. Do you know who took the statement that we're looking at?
3 A. One of the operatives who worked at the security services centre
4 in Bijeljina then. I don't know exactly. But a person from the crime
5 prevention service, that's for sure.
6 MS. BIBLES: Your Honours, at this point I would tender documents
7 09706, 17386, and 30779.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Document 97006 receives number P6582,
10 Your Honours.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You misspoke, I think. It should be document
13 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, document is 09706. And it receives number
14 P6582, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: P6582 is admitted.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Document 17386 receives number P6583,
17 Your Honours. And document 30779 receives number P6584, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: P6583 and P6584 are admitted.
19 MS. BIBLES:
20 Q. Mr. Andan, is it your understanding that after the Yellow Wasps
21 were released that they went to Pale and met with Mrs. Plavsic?
22 A. We had information that Zuco - and now, who was with him, I don't
23 know - went to Pale after that, that he met with Mrs. Plavsic and
24 Malko Koroman, the then chief of the police station in Pale. That's the
25 information that we had. And I think that I spoke of that when I
1 previously testified.
2 Q. Now, Mr. Andan, you've previously testified that as a result of
3 this and other actions in the summer of 1992, that some Serb propaganda
4 circulated at the time accusing you and others you worked with of
5 protecting Muslims and arresting Serbs for small crimes. Do you stand by
6 this testimony?
7 A. Yes, this specifically pertains to Bijeljina. The information
8 service, civilians, radio television, local newspapers, they accused me
9 and Mr. Davidovic of protecting Muslims and that we are arresting on
10 false charges or trumped up charges "Serb fighters." As a matter of
11 fact, at a session of the Assembly of Bijeljina, a request was made to
12 expel me from the municipality of Bijeljina and to have him returned to
13 the federal SUP.
14 Q. And by "him" you mean Mr. Davidovic?
15 A. Yes, yes. That Davidovic should be returned to the federal SUP
16 where he had come from and that I should be expelled from the area of
17 Bijeljina precisely because of what I told you about just now.
18 Q. In paragraph 7 of your statement and I believe at parts of your
19 testimony, you have alluded to a suspension or being removed from the
20 Serbian police. Is it true that following your work arresting the
21 paramilitaries you were suspended from the Serbian police in August of
23 A. I've already said this. I never received an official document.
24 I just told by Mr. Kovac, who had come from Pale to Bijeljina, he said
25 that I should no longer come to the MUP, that they think that I shouldn't
1 work any longer, and that they don't need me any longer. Just one more
2 sentence, please. You will allow me. Let me say this: Mr. Kovac was
3 very brazen when he said this. When I asked him for an explanation, he
4 said this: Professionally you did everything for top marks, but we used
5 you as a one-off condom. That's it. That was my conversation with
6 Mr. Kovac and that's how I left the ministry.
7 Q. From the ministry you went to work with the VRS; is that correct?
8 A. Correct. A few days -- actually, I spent a few days in
9 Bijeljina. I didn't do anything. Mr. Salapura showed up, I mean, he
10 came to see me at home, and he said that if I was interested, if I wanted
11 to, would I like to be transferred to the Army of Republika Srpska, and I
12 accepted that.
13 Q. Is it correct that from September of 1992 to September of 1993,
14 you worked as an intelligence officer for the 65th Motorised Protection
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. And I believe you refer to this in your statement that during the
18 time in this assignment, you also led a sabotage detachment in 1993; is
19 that correct?
20 A. Yes, yes. Officially there was no commander of the sabotage
21 detachment. For a certain period of time I led that detachment.
22 Q. Did you lead this detachment as part of Lukavac 93?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. In the statement provided for this case, you describe two times
25 that you saw the accused with prisoners, both appear to be during
1 Lukavac 1993; is that accurate?
2 A. Could you please clarify that question, please?
3 Q. In the statement that you provided for this case, which I think
4 is in front of you if you'd like to review it, you describe two times
5 that you saw --
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It's not on the screen.
7 MS. BIBLES: I'm sorry.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It should be called up.
9 MS. BIBLES: Yes. If we could --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Did you intend to refer to a hard copy?
11 MS. BIBLES: I'm sorry, I was referring to a hard copy but it
12 would not hurt to pull up this statement on the screen.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 MS. BIBLES: And I believe that's D512. And if we go to page 3,
15 I believe, in both versions in e-court, which describes one of the
16 contacts that the accused had with a prisoner. And then if we could turn
17 to the next page.
18 Q. With respect to paragraph 16, that is the second reference that
19 I'm alluding to here. Did both of these events occur during
20 Lukavac 1993?
21 A. Yes, both.
22 Q. Can you tell us if there were other times that you saw him with
23 prisoners during the war?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Now, in paragraph 15 and then 16, the bulk of this portion of
1 this statement, you describe this incident where you come upon of group
2 of 20 to 30 Muslim prisoners. You noticed injuries on the prisoners.
3 Were these clearly visible injuries?
4 A. I think it was an incident. They surrendered to the Army of
5 Republika Srpska in that operation that was carried out then.
6 JUDGE ORIE: The question was whether the injuries were clearly
7 visible. How they got there, who inflicted them is not the question.
8 First, could you clearly see them?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were visible injuries on the
10 faces of some of the soldiers of the Muslim army.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
12 MS. BIBLES:
13 Q. Is it true that you did not take statements from these prisoners,
14 take photographs of their injuries, or interview the soldiers?
15 A. No, because at that moment I was not in that role. I mean, that
16 was done by the security organ of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.
17 Q. But you don't have information that those things were done by
18 anyone, do you?
19 A. No.
20 Q. In fact, to the best of your knowledge, the order was that they
21 be taken to Kula. Isn't that your understanding of where they were to
23 A. General Mladic, who showed up there, he asked me: Who are these
24 guys, where are they from? He said that the security organ should be
25 informed, that they should come and collect them, and write down their
1 names and that they should be transferred to the Kula prison, and that an
2 adequate number of Serbs who are being held prisoner in Sarajevo should
3 be exchanged for them.
4 Q. Well, let's go back to paragraphs 11 through 14.
5 MS. BIBLES: Which I believe is the page in front of this or
6 before this one.
7 Q. In these paragraphs you describe events surrounding a prisoner
8 who is captured in Trnovo. Is this Asim Zulic that you are talking
10 A. Yes, yes, I remember his surname because as chief of police in
11 Stari Grad, I had problems with the Zulic family. They were constantly
12 involved in crime. And I remember that name very well. It doesn't have
13 to do with this Mr. Zulic personally. It's some relatives of his.
14 Q. Well, the next question I had is whether you knew Mr. Zulic prior
15 to the war?
16 A. I don't think I had direct contact. Perhaps he knew me as a
17 senior inspector, but I, as far as I know, did not know him. And I don't
18 know whether he was an active-duty policeman before the war anyway.
19 Q. Your statement describes and what I think was captured in the
20 summary is Mr. Zulic's attitude towards the accused and that that
21 attitude was appreciative. I'd like to ask you some questions and some
22 very specific questions about the evidence. In paragraph 12 you
23 describe, with quotes, a statement that Mladic made to Zulic. Were you
24 present when those statements were made?
25 A. Yes, I was present.
1 Q. Can you tell us where this conversation took place?
2 A. I don't know where that conversation took place. It was in front
3 of a house, in any case. There were several soldiers and officers there.
4 Mr. Mladic turned up. He sat down with him and he told him, "Don't be
5 afraid. Your life is guaranteed. You will be exchanged. You will be
6 taken to the Kula prison."
7 During that conversation, as far as I can remember, and I believe
8 that my memory serves me well, he was offered a cup of coffee. He drank
9 that coffee. And after that conversation, he sat down in a Puch car and
10 he was transferred to Kula in that Puch, if my memory serves me right and
11 I believe it does.
12 Q. At some point during that incident, did you become aware that
13 Mr. Zulic was president of the Committee for Exchange of Prisoners?
14 A. The way I understood it was that Mr. Zulic was an officer in the
15 police station.
16 Q. Who took Mr. Zulic away?
17 A. I can't tell you. A vehicle came escorted by the police or the
18 military and he was taken away. I don't know who did it, really.
19 Q. Did you stay with General Mladic after Mr. Zulic was taken away?
20 A. No, I didn't. I had some other tasks to carry out. I did what I
21 had to do there and then I departed with the lads that I was with at the
23 Q. Do you have any information as to whether General Mladic spoke
24 with Zulic a second time that same day?
25 A. I was there only once.
1 Q. Are you aware that Mr. Zulic was interviewed with General Mladic
2 on SRNA the following day?
3 A. I've never seen that. There was a combat going on, so I didn't
4 have the time nor the opportunity to watch TV.
5 Q. Mr. Andan, I'd like to take a look at -- have you take a look at
6 65 ter 30758, which is a statement taken or given by Mr. Zulic in, I
7 believe, 1996. If we could pull up the first page, to give you a
9 A. I apologise. Despite having my spectacles on, I can't see a
10 thing here.
11 Q. The B/C/S version is difficult to read. I'd ask you to --
12 MS. BIBLES: Perhaps we could look more closely at the first
13 paragraph in the statement.
14 Q. Mr. Andan, we'll turn to page 4 in both versions and focus on
15 part of this statement. Do you see the name -- before we turn away
16 there, did you see the name of Mr. Asim Zulic?
17 JUDGE ORIE: You're back on the first page where you may be able
18 to read it. Could we zoom in on the first paragraph, especially the --
20 Do you see the name of Asim Zulic?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can see Asim Zulic, son of
22 somebody, born in 1952. I can see that. And I can see that the
23 statement was provided on the 1st of March 1990-something. The year is
24 not clear.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Bibles.
1 MS. BIBLES:
2 Q. Mr. Andan, I'd direct your attention going back to page 4. And
3 then we'll turn to page 5.
4 MS. BIBLES: And if we could go to page 5 in the English. And
5 I'll ask that we focus on the B/C/S version near the bottom of the page.
6 Q. I believe as you look towards the lower third you can make the
7 out the name Mladic, Ratko -- Komandant Ratko Mladic at eight lines from
8 the bottom?
9 JUDGE ORIE: The last two words on the line 9 from the bottom,
10 Witness. You found it?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "At that moment the aggressor
12 commander said Mladic," something, and then I can't read the rest. And
13 he said: "Don't kill him." I can see that. "Report to the Red Cross,
14 we'll see what we are going to do about him," is that what you had in
15 mind? "In the basement escorted by the police officers," and then I
16 can't see, "an unknown person or man, about 50 years of age, of medium
17 height," somebody addressed him as president. And then he starts asking
18 questions about Kolak and I can't see the rest of that.
19 MS. BIBLES:
20 Q. Mr. Andan, let's go -- really key in on the quote attributed to
21 Mr. Mladic.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Before we do so, could we have the bottom part of
23 the previous page in English so that we see how it starts. Because
24 that's the part apparently the witness read. Could we move to the next
25 page in English.
1 Please proceed, Ms. Bibles.
2 MS. BIBLES:
3 Q. Mr. Andan, Mr. Zulic's quote, if you would look closely at this,
4 as to what Mr. Mladic actually said, was:
5 "Don't kill him and don't report him to the Red Cross. We will
6 see what we will do with him."
7 Wouldn't you agree that Mr. Zulic's recollection of the statement
8 made to him by Mladic would be the most accurate description?
9 A. No. I was there and I told you what he said. I can repeat that.
10 Q. Mr. Andan --
11 MS. BIBLES: If we could move to page 5 in B/C/S.
12 Q. -- Mr. Zulic describes that after his contact with Mladic, that
13 he was taken into a basement and interrogated. He describes that
14 although the interrogation was fairly short, that he was abused after he
15 answered every question. Do you have any reason to doubt that he was
16 interrogated after he was arrested?
17 A. I have no reason to doubt or not to doubt. I don't know who
18 interrogated him. I don't know when.
19 Q. Mr. Andan, Mr. Zulic describes that he saw Mladic a second time
20 that same day when Mladic came to the interrogation in the basement and
21 asked him questions about troop strength and other questions about
22 strategy. Wouldn't you agree that Mr. Zulic's recollection of that day
23 would be better than your lack of knowledge with respect to those events?
24 A. He was in that position and I suppose that he remembers all the
25 details. I told you what I remember.
1 MS. BIBLES: I'd next like to turn to page 6 in both versions.
2 Q. And I would ask you to look, even though it's difficult, at the
3 top of the page in B/C/S for your name.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can see the name of Avdir Vatic
5 [phoen]. I don't see my name anywhere.
6 MS. BIBLES:
7 Q. Mr. Andan, I believe seven lines down in the middle of the page
8 you'll find your name, Dragan Andan. And in this page it's a little
9 darker than some of the rest of the type, and that seems to be fairly
10 clear. Could you take another look below the Avdo Vatric name?
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with all due
12 respect, a reference is made to line 7 on this page. I believe it would
13 be fair to tell the witness that his name is mentioned on line 2 of this
14 page because that would give the witness the entire context of the event,
15 and it would only be fair. If the witness was aware of the entire
16 context, he would be able to put Mr. Zulic's words into a context and
17 only then would he be able to answer the Prosecutor's questions.
18 JUDGE ORIE: That's very long for saying: Could we start at
19 line 2 where the name is mentioned as well. Do we need to go back to the
20 previous page or is it sufficiently clear? Because it seems that the
21 name of the witness appears in the middle of a sentence. Perhaps we
22 should ...
23 Ms. Bibles, you will give the guidance.
24 MS. BIBLES: Yes, if we could move back to page 5 at the very
25 bottom of the page.
1 Q. Mr. Andan, I see you don't have your glasses on. Could you try
2 to take a close look at the bottom of page 5 in the B/C/S version,
4 A. I have my glasses, yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps it's easier if you read it slowly to him,
6 Ms. Bibles, because the quality of the B/C/S is not that good and
7 difficult to immediately decipher.
8 MS. BIBLES: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Q. Mr. Andan - and perhaps if we go to the next page, this will be
10 of assistance - what the English versions describes is:
11 "Dragan Andan, a former employee of the Serb" -- excuse me, "RS
12 BH MUP, Ministry of Interior, came up to the car. He was wearing a
13 uniform. He opened the door to the," and I believe it's "Puh vehicle,"
14 P-u-h, "and asked me, 'Do you recognise me?' I told him that I did and
15 he asked where I was captured and inquired about the former Trnovo SJB
16 commander, Avdo Vatric. I told him that Avdo Vatric had stayed with the
17 army which left Trnovo. Dragan Andan closed the door of the Puh vehicle
18 and we moved on."
19 Do you have a recollection of that contact with Mr. Zulic the day
20 after he was arrested?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Mr. Andan, I believe you testified that you were unaware that
23 there was an interview of Mr. Zulic with Mr. Mladic with SRNA?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. So would it surprise you to know that in an interview with SRNA,
1 that Mladic humiliated and embarrassed Mr. Zulic during the course of
2 that interview?
3 A. I can't comment because I did not see that.
4 Q. Would it surprise you, then, if the behaviour of Mr. Mladic
5 towards Mr. Zulic was so embarrassing that members of Mladic's own family
6 tried to get him to stop?
7 A. I don't know why you are asking me that. I can only talk about
8 what I personally saw.
9 Q. Mr. Andan, I'm asking you this because three paragraphs of your
10 statement describe the incident with Mr. Zulic and describe that
11 Mr. Zulic was appreciative towards Mr. Mladic. So wouldn't you agree, as
12 a police officer, as a human being, that it would make sense to see what
13 Mr. Zulic himself says about this incident?
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but that's different from putting questions to
15 the witness. There is a clear --
16 MS. BIBLES: Okay.
17 JUDGE ORIE: -- view that this witness's recollection is --
18 differs from the recollection which we learned from a statement given by
19 Mr. Zulic.
20 But your last question was about a different matter, that is,
21 whether this witness would be surprised that Mr. Mladic -- it certainly
22 does not correspond with his observation of what he says he observed
23 himself. And all the rest, Ms. Bibles, would he be surprised if his
24 neighbours would have stopped him, if his family would have stopped him,
25 if it happened at all, I mean, whether the witness would be surprised or
1 not is not the most vital issue that we have to hear about. There
2 clearly is a different recollection or at least a clearly different
3 description of the event.
4 Please proceed.
5 MS. BIBLES: If we could see 65 ter 30759, please.
6 Q. Mr. Andan, an investigator with the Office of the Prosecutor
7 spoke with Mr. Zulic on 13th of May, 2014, and you're now looking at or
8 you will be looking at the statement that was taken. I would ask you to
9 take a few moments - it's a relatively short statement - to review it,
10 specifically with respect to the treatment of Ratko Mladic towards
11 Mr. Zulic.
12 MS. BIBLES: And if we could go to the next page.
13 Q. It appears you finished reading this page. You're ready for the
14 next --
15 A. May I?
16 MS. BIBLES: If we could turn to the next page, please.
17 Q. Mr. Andan, your statement describes Mr. Zulic's attitude
18 regarding his treatment at the hands of Ratko Mladic. You talk in your
19 statement, and I believe it's paragraph 14, that even today Mr. Zulic is
20 appreciative. Wouldn't you agree now that having read his original
21 statement and the current statement, that his attitude about Mr. Mladic
22 and the treatment he received is different than the interpretation that
23 you provided?
24 A. Madam, Madam Prosecutor, my brothers Radenko and Mladen also
25 surrendered to the BiH Army. They didn't survive. Their throats were
1 slit in 1993 in Sarajevo. Zulic has stayed alive. We can have different
2 opinions. We can have different views of various things. I told you
3 what I saw. I told you what I witnessed. I cannot say anything about
4 Zulic's statement after so many years for various reasons. If you want
5 me to tell you what the reasons are, I am more than happy to share them
6 with you.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, Mr. Mladic, you remain seated. You can
8 consult at an inaudible volume.
9 I hear you, Mr. Mladic. Mr. Mladic, stop. I can hear you even
10 with my earphones on. So if you want to consult with counsel, you are
11 able to do so but at a volume inaudible for anyone. The rule is quite
12 simple. I am not obstructing that.
13 Ms. Bibles, could you please resume. Or as a matter of fact, the
14 witness has answered the question, I would say, yes. Please proceed.
15 MS. BIBLES: Yes.
16 Q. Mr. Andan, as I'm wrapping up here, thinking back to paragraph 6
17 of your statement, you advise that the Yellow Wasps were eliminated as
18 part of the operation that was conducted and yet that didn't really tell
19 us the whole truth about the Yellow Wasps, did it?
20 A. In what context? What do you mean?
21 Q. That the Yellow Wasps, in fact, were released after a period of
22 time in custody, and they went to Pale and were received by Mrs. Plavsic
23 and were not prosecuted for the offences. Wouldn't you agree that those
24 things were left out of your statement?
25 A. I've already clarified that several times here. I told you that
1 we filed a criminal report and it was up to the prosecutor why they
2 didn't follow-up. As far as the police were concerned, the case was
4 Q. Mr. Andan, in paragraph 6 of your statement you say:
5 "In that period there were quite a few police activities. Again,
6 the struggle with paramilitary formations. And what is most important,
7 the elimination of a paramilitary formation called the Yellow Wasps in
9 Wouldn't you agree that that leaves out rather critical
10 information and evidence regarding the Yellow Wasps?
11 A. What?
12 Q. Mr. Andan, I'll move on. Isn't it true that in terms of value
13 for the Trial Chamber of your statement, the most important aspects of
14 your statement really isn't what you said but what you left out of the
16 A. I don't agree with you. I answered all of your questions. I
17 even told you what is not contained in the statement. So whatever may
18 have been left out, I shared with you verbally. And let me just tell you
19 that the Yellow Wasps as a paramilitary formation never recovered after
20 our operation. They were never re-established as a formation and they
21 were never active in the territory of the Republika Srpska after that.
22 MS. BIBLES: Your Honour, I would tender 30758 and 30759.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Could you remind me the --
24 MS. BIBLES: These were the statement of Mr. Zulic, the original
25 statement --
1 JUDGE ORIE: And the declaration?
2 MS. BIBLES: And the declaration, yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: And the declaration fits into what rule?
4 MS. BIBLES: 89(C), Your Honour. It's relevant. For one, he
5 verifies the information in the first report.
6 JUDGE ORIE: And a written statement taken for the purposes of
7 this Tribunal where the witness does not appear for cross-examination, is
8 that something that we would need to deal with under Rule 92 bis or
9 92 ter?
10 MS. BIBLES: Your Honour, we certainly could. However, given the
11 testimony of this witness, both in his statement and in the courtroom,
12 the argument would be that this is relevant for you to consider for the
13 purposes of evaluating his statement.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But Rules 92 bis and 92 ter are not talking
15 about the kind of relevance. They give rather strict rules on
17 MS. BIBLES: Your Honour, I -- and I -- the first statement that
18 was taken, the Bosnian statement, was not actually taken for the purposes
19 of this Tribunal.
20 JUDGE ORIE: That's the reason --
21 MS. BIBLES: Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: -- why I said this in relation to the second one and
23 not in relation to the first one.
24 MS. BIBLES: Your Honour, considering again the Prosecution's
25 perspective on this is that Mr. Andan did confirm some of the details in
1 the Bosnian statement, that Mr. Zulic was arrested, that Mladic was
2 there, those sorts of things, and that he has sufficiently provided
3 enough information to -- to allow the document to come in as authentic.
4 We believe he doesn't have reason to doubt that Mr. Zulic reported the
5 document or that reported the information in the document.
6 In terms of evaluating his statement, Mr. Andan's statement, we
7 suggest that it's in the interest of fairness and in the interest of
8 justice in trying to assess his testimony that it would be appropriate to
9 consider as well the statements of Mr. Zulic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have any case law in support of your position
11 in that if once the statement is taken at the time by the local
12 authorities, that his statement taken later with the specific purposes to
13 use it in the ICTY proceedings, that that is not subject any further to
14 the formalities of 92 bis and 92 ter?
15 MS. BIBLES: Your Honour, off the top of my head I do not -- what
16 I would ask is that we MFI these documents and that I could provide
17 supplementary material with respect to admission at a later time.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Well, for the first one that may be different but
19 let me -- Mr. Stojanovic, what would be your position?
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, like last time, we
21 are opposed to having this statement admitted into evidence. The
22 statement of a person and this was not done for the needs of this court
23 and it's not a proper 92 bis or 92 ter statement. We had an identical
24 situation last week and, again, we were opposed to having such statements
25 admitted into evidence, especially after the witness spoke today and
1 responded to questions put by the Prosecution in relation to this
2 statement. Therefore, we believe that this statement cannot be admitted
3 into evidence.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, which statement are you referring to
5 now, the old one or the new one?
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Number one, I am talking about
7 the old statement given in November 1993. And with your leave, I'm going
8 to speak about this statement, when you ask me about that, and I'm going
9 to be opposed to that, too, quite simply because in this statement that
10 was given to an investigator two months ago, it says:
11 "I stand by the statement I gave in November 1993."
12 JUDGE ORIE: Now you earlier said the statement of a person not
13 done for the purposes of this court. Now, wouldn't that widen the
14 options for admission if it is not taken for the purposes of proceedings
15 before this court?
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour. But
17 it's for the Prosecution to say, and not in this way as its been proposed
19 JUDGE ORIE: Both documents will be MFI'd.
20 Madam Registrar.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Document 30758 receives number P6585. And
22 document 30759 receives number P6586, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ORIE: P6585 and P6586 are marked for identification.
24 We take a break but not until after the witness has been escorted
25 out of the courtroom.
1 [The witness stands down]
2 JUDGE ORIE: And we will resume at 20 minutes past 12.00.
3 --- Recess taken at 11.59 a.m.
4 --- On resuming at 12.27 p.m.
5 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
6 [The witness takes the stand]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Let's proceed, Ms. Bibles.
8 MS. BIBLES: Your Honour, I've concluded my examination. Thank
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Bibles.
11 Just one little question. You referred to a SRNA interview,
12 et cetera. Is there -- is that in evidence?
13 MS. BIBLES: It is not. It's referred to by Mr. Zulic. We do
14 not have a copy of that SRNA interview --
15 JUDGE ORIE: There is no copy?
16 MS. BIBLES: Right.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Any further questions, Mr. Stojanovic?
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] A few questions, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have in e-court
21 document 65 ter 1D02275.
22 Re-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
23 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Andan, during the cross-examination by the
24 Prosecutor, you were asked quite a few things about Brcko. This is what
25 I'm asking you now. To the best of your recollection, in July 1992,
1 after you left Brcko, this paramilitary formation, the Red Berets, was it
2 placed under the command of the Army of Republika Srpska?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Could we please take a look at this together, paragraph 3 from
5 the bottom of this report of yours.
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have the next
7 page in English, Your Honours.
8 Q. In this dispatch that you're sending to the Ministry of the
9 Interior on the 24th of July, 1992, among other things, you say:
10 "Through our operative activities, we learned that the members of
11 the Red Berets are still not subordinated to the military organs (twenty
12 of them), and the Brcko garrison of the Serbian army gave them the
13 dead-line to do so by 1800 hours."
14 This is my question for you: Do you remember whether at any
15 point in time these 20 or so members of the Red Berets joined the regular
16 ranks of the Army of Republika Srpska?
17 A. Twice the unit of the police from Bijeljina intervened in Brcko.
18 The first time we eliminated or we thought that we had eliminated the
19 Red Berets. We went on other missions and they rose again, and the
20 situation of chaos, if I can call it that, prevailed in Brcko once again.
21 We intervened a second time and then there was an armed rebellion of the
22 Red Berets because we had arrested most of their members and some of them
23 became renegades. They even took some heavy weaponry with them and they
24 went to Ugljevik.
25 At that moment, I heard via radio communication that they had
1 kidnapped Major Sehovac and they asked me to have their members released
2 or they would kill Sehovac. I gave them a laconic answer: Kill him. If
3 the Serb army has anything, it has plenty of officers. They didn't kill
4 Sehovac. They handed over all the weapons. We made a list. They all
5 hailed from Serbia, and at the Raca border crossing we gave them all to
6 the Serbian authorities.
7 Q. Thank you. Your experience in view of all the work you did in
8 the police and the Army Republika Srpska, the Main Staff of the Army of
9 Republika Srpska, did they have the sincere intention of doing away with
10 all of these paramilitary formations throughout Republika Srpska?
11 A. My explicit answer is: Yes. This was an ongoing topic on the
12 agenda of all meetings that I attended, that they should be disarmed,
13 that they should be sent back to Serbia or other places that they had
14 come from outside Bosnia-Herzegovina. At one point in time, it was more
15 of a problem than the front line itself. However, in order to carry this
16 through, a different kind of support was needed as well. You know how we
17 faired in Bijeljina. This political support was not always on the side
18 of those who wanted to settle scores with such criminals.
19 Q. Thank you. I am waiting for the interpretation. Please don't
20 hold that against me.
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have in e-court
23 Q. While we're waiting for this document to be called up,
24 Mr. Andan -- well, now you can see it in front of you. This is a
25 document of the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska. The date is
1 the 28th of July, 1992, and it is entitled: "Disarmament of Paramilitary
2 Formations, Order -"
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And now I would like us to take
4 a look at page 3 in the B/C/S version, or rather, the last page in the
5 English version. I'm sorry, not this page but the previous page in
6 English. Thank you.
7 Q. Signed General Ratko Mladic, commander of the Main Staff.
8 Paragraph 2 of this order states as follows:
9 [As read] "Individuals and groups which had carried out crimes,
10 looting and other types of criminal acts are not to be included into
11 units ... such persons are to be disarmed, arrested, and criminal
12 proceedings are to be initiated against them in the Serb Republic of
13 Bosnia-Herzegovina army courts regardless of their citizenship."
14 Paragraph 5 says, this is General Mladic's order:
15 "I forbid all paramilitary formations, groups, and individuals in
16 the territory of the SRBiH. In the future, criminal proceedings should
17 be conducted against commanders, relevant military and territorial
18 organs, and authorities who allow paramilitary organisation and evasion
19 of recruitment and conscription in accordance with the SRBiH Law on the
21 In view of this document, this order of General Mladic's, your
22 contacts with General Mladic, this is my question for you: Would this
23 document precisely reflect the positions of General Mladic in terms of
24 how paramilitary formations should be dealt with throughout the war?
25 A. Yes, fully. I know of several examples from my own practice.
1 General Mladic issued an order if Arkan and his men moved towards the
2 Drina that they should be arrested and that they should not be allowed to
3 enter Republika Srpska at any cost. At one moment I heard him say, "If
4 necessary, even use force and fire-arms when Arkan is in question."
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, again can we take
7 a look at one of the documents used by the Prosecution, P6583.
8 Q. This is a criminal report that has to do with the Yellow Wasps.
9 We'll look at it together.
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have page 3 of
11 this document in B/C/S, and I think that it's the same page in English.
12 Yes. And it says here -- Your Honours, I would like to draw your
13 attention to the first paragraph in English version.
14 In B/C/S can we please have the next page.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The third page.
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Yes, page 3.
18 [No interpretation].
19 JUDGE ORIE: We do not receive English translation. Could you
20 please restart reading, Mr. Stojanovic.
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I understand.
22 Q. So this is a document that says the following and, Mr. Witness,
23 could we please take a look at this together.
24 Because of the suspicion that the following persons in a certain
25 period in Karakaj from the 28th of June until the 29th of July, 1992, in
1 Karakaj --
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And, Your Honours, now the
3 English text starts on this page that you have in front of you.
4 Q. As for Zvornik, the group did not belong to the armed forces of
5 the Serbian Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina," and then that is continued.
6 After all these years and after all the testimony that you
7 provided, do you still stand by the following: That these paramilitary
8 formations, at the time when they were being arrested and at the time
9 when they were doing what they were doing, did not belong to the Army of
10 Republika Srpska?
11 A. Yes, I absolutely stand by that, that they did not belong to the
12 VRS. Those who were expelled and who returned were returned by certain
13 political personages from Republika Srpska.
14 Q. While we are still on this page where it says that you are
15 charging them with the following, the commission of the crime of
16 aggravated robbery, Article 151, paragraph 1 of the criminal code of the
17 then-Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, this is what I'm asking
18 you now. If you remember. Do you remember that the minimum sentence is
19 five years and the maximum sentence is 20 years in prison for that?
20 A. Yes, according to the old ZKP, it is 5 to 20 years in prison.
21 Q. According to the law that was in force then, is that the most
22 serious? Is that the highest sentence that can be imposed, 20 years in
24 A. Yes.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And, Your Honours, could we
1 please have the first page of this document. And I would like to
2 conclude on that note.
3 Q. This criminal report, according to this document, was first sent
4 to the public prosecutor in Zvornik. Bijeljina was crossed out and then
5 Zvornik was put there. Do you know that at that time there was a
6 military prosecutor's office and a civilian prosecutor's office?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And what's the reason -- yes, I will slow down. I am sorry about
9 this. The reason why this is being sent to the civilian prosecutor's
10 office, is it because the status of these persons was that of civilians
11 not military personnel? Is that your view?
12 A. Yes, if they were military personnel, we would have filed this
13 with the military prosecutor's office. However, they were
14 paramilitaries, they were therefore civilians, and we actually filed this
15 criminal report with the civilian prosecutor's office.
16 Q. Thank you. And do you know that the district court in Sabac in
17 1993 started criminal proceedings against Dusko Vuckovic, nicknamed
18 Repic, because of the war crime of persecution of the civilian
19 population, Article 142 of the criminal code of the former SFRY?
20 A. We sent all the relevant documents to the MUP of Serbia because
21 they were investigating the case of Repic then, and I know that Repic was
22 sentenced to prison. I cannot remember what year that was and what the
23 actual prison sentence was.
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I hope that we can
25 stipulate. I hope that the Prosecution agrees. His prison sentence is a
1 document that -- is stated in a document that we received from the OTP,
2 and let me just say that the Defence states that he was found guilty and
3 sentenced to ten years imprisonment and --
4 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please. One second, please.
5 Witness, you said that you didn't know when he was sentenced. Is
6 it that you do not know the exact year or don't you know approximately
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can't give you the
9 exact year. But I know that he was sentenced and that he served his
10 sentence. I've already told you that while we were in Bijeljina, we were
11 requested to submit the relevant documentation.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Was it briefly after he had committed those crimes
13 that there was a prosecution and a sentence? Or was it long after that
14 or ...?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't answer that question. I
16 believe that a year or two or perhaps even three years lapsed before his
17 trial was over, I think.
18 JUDGE ORIE: I was not asking about how much time the trial took.
19 I was asking when approximately that judgement was rendered, whether you
20 have any recollection as even to approximately the period when that
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know, but I believe that
23 the war was still on.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Which means before December 1995?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Again, if I knew I would tell you
1 immediately. I know that he was sentenced but I don't know when that
2 happened. I really can't remember.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Could the parties assist me approximately about the
4 year so that it can be put to the witness.
5 MS. BIBLES: Yes, Your Honour. I believe 65 ter 30778 may be of
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now I'm usually not looking at
8 65 ter documents --
9 MS. BIBLES: Oh, sorry.
10 JUDGE ORIE: -- unless they have been admitted into evidence.
11 That's --
12 MS. BIBLES: I believe that's the document Mr. Stojanovic was
13 referring to.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. So you apparently agree on the judgement.
15 Could you tell me, then, what date appears on that judgement.
16 MS. BIBLES: If I'm reading this correctly, Your Honour, it
17 appears that it would be July 8th of 1996.
18 JUDGE ORIE: July 8th, 1996. Thank you.
19 Then, Mr. Stojanovic, anything else?
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Just one more
21 document and one more question. I would like to call up 65 ter, which
22 also probably has a P number but I don't know it, 01925 is its
23 65 ter number.
24 THE REGISTRAR: For the record, Your Honours, this is
25 Exhibit P6579.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 Q. Sir, this document is what you already saw during the
4 cross-examination. Let me first ask you a couple questions and then I
5 will draw your attention to certain parts of this document.
6 When it comes to the 1st Bijeljina Light Infantry Brigade, also
7 known as the Panther Brigade, after having joined the VRS in November, as
8 you said it yourself, and that was in 1992, was it one of the better
9 organised and better equipped units in the Army of Republika Srpska?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you ever hear that that unit, when it was engaged as a unit
12 of the VRS, participated in any kind of crime?
13 A. No, I didn't hear any such thing nor was there any police
14 evidence to that effect.
15 Q. Thank you. And now can I draw your attention to the document.
16 In the preamble --
17 JUDGE ORIE: You said one document, one question. I do
18 understand that after the two questions you've put already on this
19 document that you're now entering a new series of questions or?
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. There have
21 been a few questions, but I still need just one more document and this is
23 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then please conclude within a reasonable
24 number of minutes.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Certainly.
1 Q. In the preamble of this document, it says that the commendation
2 concerns the achievements in combat and the successful breakup of the
3 offensive of the 5th Corps of the Muslim army. And it says the
4 Combat Group Mauzer from the 1st Light Infantry Brigade in Bijeljina.
5 When you read this document, would you draw an inference that the
6 entire brigade was commended or just one part of that brigade known as
8 A. Only a combat group was commended.
9 Q. Thank you. And then I will finish with the next question.
10 You've had an occasion to be a guest on TV in Federal Sarajevo after the
11 war. On that occasion, did the viewers called in? Were there any
12 questions about the situations that you are testifying about today?
13 A. Yes, that was last year. I appeared on Alfa Television at their
14 invitation. I arrived in Sarajevo. And I didn't know that it was a live
15 show where the anchor and I were talking and viewers called in. There
16 were questions from viewers about the group of Muslim members of the
17 BiH army who surrendered in Bjelasnica and with whom I had immediate
18 contact after that. I sent them to the Foca prison. From there they
19 were exchanged, they went to Sarajevo, and after the war, a few of them
20 contacted me and thanked me personally for my conduct towards them. And
21 I have to say that there were no ugly questions from any of the viewers
22 in that show. Before I testified here, I had to fill out a questionnaire
23 for The Hague Tribunal where I mentioned my appearance on TV and I
24 mentioned when that was staged.
25 Q. Thank you, Mr. Adnan, I have no further questions for you.
1 JUDGE ORIE: If the questions in re-examination triggered any
2 need for further questions? If not --
3 MS. BIBLES: No, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, is there any document you may have
5 used which you wish to tender but have not tendered.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Especially 1D2275?
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. It's just
8 one document that has not been admitted. And if I'm not mistaken, the
9 65 ter number is 1D2275. The other documents have already been admitted
10 into evidence in this case.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D2275 receives number D513,
13 Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
15 This, then, Mr. Andan, concludes your testimony. I would like to
16 thank you very much for coming a long way to The Hague and you had to
17 stay here for a couple of days, although the weather was not as bad as it
18 often is. I'd like to thank you again for having answered all the
19 questions that were put to you by the parties and by the Bench, and I
20 wish you a safe return home again.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Would it be a common
22 practice in this court for me to ask you something?
23 JUDGE ORIE: You may ask me something, but if it is about
24 greeting of the accused, which is a question which is not -- okay, then
25 please ask me whatever you want to ask --
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not saying --
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it's a professional question.
4 In my police practice over the number of years, I've had a lot of
5 investigative activities and interviews and we were always forbidden to
6 put leading questions. I don't know whether this is the practice of this
7 Court as well. However, during the cross-examination of the Prosecutor,
8 I've had several leading questions which I don't think is in compliance
9 with court practice.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Well, as a matter of fact, it is. In the common law
11 tradition leading questions are usually admissible but in
12 cross-examination only. So you noticed it right, that most of the
13 leading questions were put to you in cross-examination which is
14 acceptable in that system. Quite willing always perhaps at other moments
15 to discuss legal matters but --
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
17 JUDGE ORIE: -- I think I should give you a brief answer. You
18 may follow the usher.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Please don't hold it against us.
21 The two of us come from the same legal system, hence our questions,
22 dilemmas, and prejudices.
23 [The witness withdrew]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Is the Defence ready to call its next witness? No
25 protective measures, the next witness being Mr. Guzina.
1 Ms. Bibles.
2 MS. BIBLES: Your Honour, may Mr. Traldi and I be excused and
3 leave you in capable other hands.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you mean the hands of Mr. Jeremy.
5 MS. BIBLES: Yes, Your Honour, exactly.
6 [The witness entered court]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Before you give evidence, Mr. Guzina, the Rules
8 require that you make a solemn declaration. The text is now handed out
9 to you.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
11 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
12 WITNESS: SVETOZAR GUZINA
13 [Witness answered through interpreter]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, please be seated.
15 Mr. Guzina, you'll first be examined by Mr. Stojanovic. You'll
16 find him to your left. Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.
17 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
20 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness.
21 A. Good afternoon.
22 Q. Could you please tell us your name for the record, but slowly.
23 A. Svetozar Guzina.
24 Q. Have you provided a statement to the Mladic Defence team about
25 the war events?
1 A. Yes.
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to call up
3 65 ter 1D01620.
4 Q. Sir, you can see a page with your personal details and a
5 signature. My question is whether these are your personal details and
6 whether this signature is your signature?
7 A. Yes, this is information about me. This is my signature and the
8 date is 15 May 2014. That's when I signed the document in Visegrad.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And now can we go to the last
11 page of the same document.
12 Q. The document in front of you contains a witness confirmation,
13 according to which you have provided the statement voluntarily, fully
14 aware that it could be used before this Tribunal. Is this your
16 A. Yes, this is my signature.
17 Q. Thank you. If I were to put the same questions to you today as
18 are contained in your statement after having made a solemn declaration
19 before this Court, would you still adhere to your entire statement?
20 A. Yes, I would adhere to my entire statement.
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to
22 tender the witness statement into evidence. The 65 ter number is
24 MR. JEREMY: No objection.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, you submitted two versions of the
1 statement, one confidential, the other publicly with some redactions.
2 Which is which?
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honour. I
4 would kindly draw your attention to paragraph 8 in the witness statement
5 and one of the footnotes says that the reason why we did that was the
6 witness's request to -- not to broadcast the name mentioned in here for
7 the reasons stated in the statement.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Well, let's turn into private session for a second.
9 [Private session]
11 Pages 22470-22471 redacted. Private session.
15 [Open session]
16 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
18 Document 1D1620 is marked for identification under number D515
19 and under seal -- 514, I misspoke. 514, under seal, MFI'd.
20 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Could we please admit as associated exhibits the following
23 documents. According to 65 ter they are 1D02123.
24 MR. JEREMY: No objection, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D2123 receives number D515,
2 Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: D515 is admitted.
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Then I would like to tender
5 document 65 ter 1D02 -- actually, 1D02124.
6 MR. JEREMY: No objection.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D2124 receives number D516,
9 Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: D516 is admitted.
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Then I would like to tender
12 65 ter 1D02125.
13 MR. JEREMY: No objection.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D2125 receives number D517,
16 Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
18 Last one, Mr. Stojanovic.
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And finally, 1D02122.
20 MR. JEREMY: No objection.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D2122 receives number D518,
23 Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: D518 is admitted.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honour, I
1 would now like to read out a summary of the witness's statement.
2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We have not received a
3 copy in writing.
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Svetozar Guzina, until the war
5 broke out, lived as a restaurant owner in Sokolovic Kolonija. He was an
6 eye-witness, an active participant in interethnic conflicts and armed
7 incidents in his neighbourhood.
8 He speaks about specific personal knowledge concerning the arming
9 of the Muslims as early as spring 1991 until the war broke out. After he
10 was forced to leave his home, he came to Ilidza and joined the Army of
11 Republika Srpska. He became commander of the 5th Battalion and, after
12 the reorganisation, the commander of the 1st Battalion of the
13 Ilidza Brigade. He held that duty until the end of the war.
14 The area of responsibility of his battalion was the area of
15 Nedzarici. Throughout the period of the war, his order [as interpreted]
16 had strict orders from the superior command that they should not fire at
17 civilians. He personally obeyed that order and carried it through in his
18 orders to his subordinates. He does not know of a single incident when
19 civilians or civilian targets were targeted intentionally.
20 He speaks about his experience when he had the positions of the
21 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina on the other side of the front line, and they
22 were a legitimate military objective. He says that the Army of
23 Bosnia-Herzegovina, when fighting against his battalion, used vehicles on
24 which mortars or machine-guns were mounted.
25 Also, he will testify about his view of F9 and he says that it is
1 an incomprehensible war situation; namely, that a civilian person at the
2 time of fighting is moving in front of positions on the front line on the
3 other side of the street, claiming that there were no sniper positions at
4 that location.
5 Finally, he testifies about humanitarian convoys and civilians
6 moving through the area of responsibility of his battalion, and he says
7 that he had orders from the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska to
8 allow unhindered movement of convoys of humanitarian aid.
9 Maybe I should start my questions after a break.
10 JUDGE ORIE: We could do that.
11 Then we take a break first, a break of 20 minutes.
12 Witness, we'd like to see you back at 20 minutes to 2.00.
13 And most likely cross-examination will then start at -- for the
14 last 15 minutes, Mr. Stojanovic, I take it.
15 The witness may follow the usher.
16 We resume at 20 minutes to 2.00.
17 [The witness stands down]
18 --- Recess taken at 1.18 p.m.
19 --- On resuming at 1.42 p.m.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jeremy.
21 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, I apologise for not letting you know
22 sooner, but just to make you aware that this witness received an
23 admonishment pursuant to Rule 90(E) in the Karadzic case.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think we discussed this thoroughly and we
25 leave it -- not knowing what questions will be put to the witnesses, we
1 leave it in the hands of the calling party whether or not they consider
2 it wise to give a 90(E) warning. In most of the cases, as a matter of
3 fact, there was no reason to believe that questions came even close to
4 what could create a 90(E) situation. Therefore, we -- if Mr. Stojanovic
5 would further encourage the Chamber to give a 90(E) warning, we would do
6 it, but not at this moment.
7 Further, D514 is admitted into evidence. It is the unredacted
8 version of the statement. Now, the redacted version -- it's admitted
9 under seal. The redacted version is already public as an attachment to
10 the 92 ter motion. And since it's only a minor redaction, the public
11 will not -- will have an opportunity to ...
12 [The witness takes the stand]
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, when I -- I was unclear. I started a sentence
14 and didn't finish it. The unredacted version of the statement is
15 admitted under seal and is D514. The redacted version was an attachment
16 to the 92 ter motion and is available to the public.
17 Then please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I'd
19 like to call up 1D517, D517 that is.
20 Q. Witness, I'll ask you to look at the map. This is a map of
21 Sarajevo, of course. Could you please help me and mark some of the
22 places that we might find interesting. In paragraph 38 of your
23 statement, you mention the old pensioners' home as the highest or tallest
24 building in Nedzarici and that's where UNPROFOR troops were billeted and
25 where their observation posts were.
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask the usher to
2 provide the witness with a pen so that the witness may mark the facility
3 where UNPROFOR had its observation post.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] How do I erase what I just marked
5 because my marking should be a bit more to the left?
6 JUDGE ORIE: The usher will assist you.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This would be the place, more or
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. And now you have just made a blue circle. Can you put the word
11 "UNPROFOR" or just the two letters, UN, next to that circle?
12 A. [Marks]
13 Q. Thank you. According to your recollection, how far was that
14 facility from the institute for the blind children, approximately?
15 A. Some 200 to 250 metres. Or perhaps even less than that.
16 Q. Thank you. And now, in June 1994, when it comes to that
17 facility, was there an observation post there also, an UNPROFOR
18 observation post?
19 A. Yes. UNPROFOR took that building in late 1993 or early 1994. It
20 was at the Serbian request because Muslim forces always provoked us and
21 lied about fire being opened from our positions. With the consent of the
22 brigade commander and the corps commander, we invited UNPROFOR to take up
23 that facility to be able to observe the entire situation and to become
24 aware of the lies uttered by the Muslims. And those lies were told all
25 the time before they installed themselves on the roof of the old
1 pensioners' home.
2 Q. How far was the old pensioners' home from the front line?
3 A. If you look at the map, you will see that it is on the very front
4 line because our positions were on the left-hand side of that street
5 which ran through Nedzarici at the time. Effectively some 50 metres at
6 the most.
7 Q. In this part of the defence sector of your battalion, what was
8 the distance between the positions of the BiH Army and the features that
9 they occupied and your positions?
10 A. The positions of the 1st Battalion in this area were on one side
11 of the street, whereas the Muslim forces were on the other side of that
12 same street. We were in the houses on one side of the street, which was
13 our side, whether the -- the Muslim troops were in the buildings that
14 were some 10-storeys high in the neighbourhood known as Dobrinja V.
15 Those were very difficult positions. And I can say that the most
16 difficult positions during the war were those in Nedzarici.
17 Q. Thank you. Since you lived in Sarajevo before the war, when it
18 comes to Alipasino Polje, Svrakino Selo, where was the police station
19 before the war and during the war?
20 A. I was in that police station on several occasions. My neighbour,
21 Cedo Fabijancic [phoen] worked there. It would be across the street from
22 the geodezik institute.
23 Q. Can you make a mark?
24 JUDGE ORIE: Could we first of all slow down and make a break
25 between question and answer, and answer and question, otherwise your
1 words will be lost.
2 Please proceed.
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. The witness marked
4 or made a rather large circle.
5 Q. I would kindly ask you to put letters PS next to that circle.
6 A. [Marks]
7 Q. The letters will stand for the police station. Thank you. And
8 while we have this exhibit on the screen, could you please tell me who
9 was it who held the positions immediately behind your battalion, behind
10 the airport runway?
11 A. Muslim forces, in Butmir neighbourhood. According to
12 intelligence, that battalion faced my positions; i.e., the positions of
13 the 1st Battalion of the Ilidza Brigade.
14 Q. During those war years, did you suffer from infantry and
15 artillery fire opened from those positions of the BiH Army? Were you
16 targeted from there?
17 A. Yes, from the very first day of the war we were targeted from
18 Butmir across the airport runway. It was both artillery and infantry
19 fire. We know that the artillery of that battalion in Butmir was in the
20 institute. They constantly shelled our positions, the positions of my
22 Q. I will slow down while I wait for the interpretation. And now I
23 will ask you to again take the pen and make a circle around the institute
24 from which you were targeted.
25 A. [Marks]
1 Q. And also draw arrows towards your positions --
2 A. [Marks]
3 Q. -- that were targeted from that sector.
4 A. [Marks]
5 Q. Thank you. And now could you put letters AV, standing for the
6 direction of the artillery fire you were exposed to, above the three
7 arrows that you draw.
8 A. [Marks]
9 Q. Thank you.
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And now, Your Honours, I would
11 like to tender the marked map into the evidence of this case.
12 MR. JEREMY: No objection.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
14 THE REGISTRAR: This document D517, as marked by the witness,
15 receives number D519, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. And is admitted into
18 However, Mr. Stojanovic, if I look at the basis of this map, 517,
19 as we started with, markings by the witness are -- I see here and there
20 a -- not really a hand-made marking but apparently something. So I'm not
21 questioning at this moment this one but rather 517. What exactly is
22 found there? The witness said something about it, but whether these are
23 clear markings is still to be seen. Perhaps you could later inform us
24 about that.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I'd like to
1 draw your attention to a paragraph. Please bear with me. I'm looking
2 for the relevant paragraph in the witness's statement.
3 JUDGE ORIE: I found it where it is when he said he marked
4 certain positions. But whether an oval is the same --
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's right.
6 JUDGE ORIE: -- as a square and a -- I do not know exactly. For
7 the -- some of the features it's even unclear what building it is. I
8 mean, for the Oslobodjenje and the students' home it seems to be pretty
9 clear. But, for example, what is the case with the feature to the left
10 of the Oslobodjenje building is -- what exactly is to be found in
11 Stupsko Brdo is pretty unclear. I leave it to you perhaps
12 to [overlapping speakers] --
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
14 Q. Witness, while we still have the map in front of us, could you
15 please tell the Chamber about the facility left to the Oslobodjenje
16 building? It is marked with a rectangle. What is it?
17 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to repeat and
18 come closer to the microphone.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat your answer and speak a bit
20 closer into the microphone.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Next to the Oslobodjenje building,
22 there was a new old pensioners' home. It was a multi-coloured building
23 and we called it a parrot or a parrot building, papagajka [phoen], I
24 believe that that was that.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Was that the position from which you were exposed by BiH Army
3 A. Yes, continuously from day one.
4 Q. Thank you. And now can you tell me about the rectangular
5 facility somewhat below from the parrot building in the area of
6 Stupsko Brdo?
7 A. Are we talking about the school of theology?
8 JUDGE ORIE: No, apparently we're not because the theological
9 faculty is a little bit further down and circled with an oval. I'm
10 talking about the rectangular where the letters BR from Stupsko Brdo are
11 found within that rectangular.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those were Muslim positions, so
13 this could be the so-called Betonara [phoen].
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Would that be the position from which you were exposed to
16 BiH Army units' fire throughout the war?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And now as to the facilities --
19 JUDGE ORIE: If I read in the statement:
20 "I have used red rectangles to mark the dominant features under
21 Muslim control facing our zone."
22 And -- yes, but I would like to know the specific one I referred
23 to, that is, the rectangle where the letters BR are found within that
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, now I understand much better.
1 The positions marked with rectangles were Muslim positions which we
2 targeted throughout the war in response to their constant fire from the
3 students' residential home, the furniture building -- factory building
4 and so on and so forth.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Now what is then the position? Could you describe
6 that? Was that the factory building, was it the -- the rectangle where
7 we find the letters BR from Brdo within the rectangle, what kind of
8 facility was that? What -- the position was housed in what or next to
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a concrete building, a
11 three-storey building.
12 JUDGE ORIE: It was --
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And it wasn't --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it was not the concrete factory. It was not
15 the Betonirka, but it was just a concrete building.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Now, to the right of that there is an oval, next to
18 where you marked AV. What does this oval exactly refer to?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The oval shape represents the
20 barracks in Nedzarici. It was under the control of Serb forces.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, to say that it's very, very clear in
22 paragraph 38 is another matter. But let's move on.
23 This one was tendered, I think? I think it's admitted already.
24 Madam Registrar?
25 Then let's move on, Mr. Stojanovic.
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
2 And now I would like to call up 65 ter 11152.
3 Q. Witness, in your statement you described orders by the superior
4 command with regard to the transport of humanitarian aid. I'm asking you
5 this: When it comes to the defence sector of your battalion, were there
6 any routes taken up by humanitarian convoys in order to reach Sarajevo?
7 A. Yes. We constantly let convoys through into the city of Sarajevo
8 across our lines of defence.
9 Q. Was there a standing order by the Main Staff throughout the war
10 to comply with the procedure and to allow an unhindered passage of
11 humanitarian convoys?
12 A. Yes, there was a procedure in place and throughout the war we
13 allowed convoys through the Nedzarici check-point to go to Sarajevo.
14 However, they had to comply with the procedure and they had to be
16 Q. In the document that you see before you at the moment, it says --
17 and the document was issued by the command of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps
18 on the 15th of May, 1993, it is titled: "An order for unhindered passage
19 of humanitarian convoys." In the preamble, it says:
20 "On the basis of directive by the Presidency of Republika Srpska,
21 in order to comply with the cease-fire I order," and then what follows is
22 the body of the text, where it says:
23 "... ensure undisturbed passing and protection of the delivery,
24 equipment, and personnel that is to help the civilian population of the
25 opposing side."
1 Under 2, it says that there is a ban on abuse. Under 3, full
2 compliance with Geneva Conventions. And under 4, which is not marked
3 with number 4 but it is the last paragraph, where it says that it should
4 be ensured that all units and complete personnel of the SRK army get
5 familiarised with this and respect this order.
6 My question is this: Do you remember whether you had an occasion
7 to see an order of this kind imposing on all the units of the SRK this
8 type of conduct?
9 A. I am familiar with this order. This was implemented. Every
10 single soldier was familiar with this order. Convoys were allowed to go
11 through our check-points without any problems, save for perhaps one or
12 two that were not duly announced.
13 Q. Did you also witness situations when convoys contained things
14 that were not announced, some of which were military equipment and
15 similar things?
16 A. Yes. At the beginning of the war, when I was an operative in the
17 Ilidza Brigade, a convoy that was en route from Ilidza to Butmir was
18 stopped near the health institute and it was quite by incident that it
19 was noted that there were some crates below the containers. When we
20 lifted the containers, we found a lot of weapons which were carefully
21 hidden between the containers en route to Butmir. Obviously, we seized
22 all that, and after that, we became suspicious of UNPROFOR and all of
23 their ensuing convoys. That's why we were very careful and we checked
24 carefully the contents of those convoys.
25 Q. What was your personal relationship like with representatives of
2 A. Well, this is what I can say. It was correct, especially with
3 the liaison officers who liaised with me every day. On orders from the
4 Main Staff and the corps, my duty was to talk to the liaison officer from
5 UNPROFOR whenever necessary, so we had constant contact.
6 I can actually take this opportunity to commend UNPROFOR. They
7 did help me a great deal in one particular situation, because they let me
8 know that the Muslim forces were digging two tunnels towards my
9 positions. The second one was at Stupsko Brdo towards my positions near
10 the barracks.
11 THE INTERPRETER: And the first one the interpreter did not hear.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This really surprised me, this
13 report that I received from them, very much so, because it came from the
14 military observer from Jordan. But the man, probably when he saw what
15 the situation was and when he saw how difficult the situation of my
16 battalion was and how hard it was for me too, he informed me that the
17 Muslims are building a tunnel, that they are digging a tunnel, that I
18 should be careful.
19 And as for this one tunnel at Stupsko Brdo, they actually crossed
20 my lines, they killed two of my men and wounded some, and fighting for
21 that position went on for an entire day. Only when a tank and APC were
22 brought in I managed to resolve that position and to regain my position.
23 It was in Serb hands again.
24 Whereas the second tunnel --
25 JUDGE ORIE: One second, I don't think, as a matter of fact, that
1 the tunnels were the subject of questioning. You delved in that area.
2 Next question, Mr. Stojanovic. You've used your time, by the
3 way, but could you see whether there is one last question.
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [No interpretation]
5 JUDGE ORIE: We do not receive English.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear the English now?
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we now hear you.
8 Could you please restart your question.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. That will be my last
11 Q. Mr. Witness, during those four years of the war, how many members
12 of your battalion were killed and how many were wounded?
13 A. In the 1st Battalion of the Ilidza Brigade, 167 soldiers were
14 killed. About 400, and perhaps even a bit more, were wounded either once
15 or a few times. I myself was wounded four times.
16 Q. Thank you, Witness. I have no further questions of you. And now
17 it is the Prosecutor who will be putting his questions.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Well, that's still to be seen. I don't know whether
19 it makes sense, Mr. Jeremy, to start. I would have one or two questions
20 for the witness which I perhaps could put and then you will be
21 cross-examined tomorrow.
22 Witness, you were just shown an order consisting of three parts
23 about the passage of humanitarian goods and the third one was about the
24 Geneva Conventions. And you said every soldier was familiar with this
25 order and it was implemented. Was every soldier also familiar with the
1 third paragraph which is about the Geneva Conventions, were they aware of
2 the contents of these conventions?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I think that everyone was
4 aware. At the very outset, at the very beginning of the war, there was
5 this flyer that had come from the Presidency of the Republika Srpska, the
6 President, Dr. Radovan Karadzic, and that was what was written; namely,
7 that the Geneva Conventions should be respected, and if people were taken
8 prisoner, that the rights of prisoners, POWs, should be observed, and
9 that civilians should not be fired at. So all soldiers of
10 Republika Srpska knew that, how they were supposed to behave at any given
11 point in time.
12 JUDGE ORIE: And you were in a command position, did you have
13 thorough knowledge of these conventions and -- beyond what you just told
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, roughly put. I mean, I was
16 aware, yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Because if you say that you were instructed that
18 prisoners of war should be -- the rights of prisoners of war should be
19 observed, at least what you would need to know is what the rights of
20 prisoners of war are.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, to give him water, to give
22 him food, to protect him from further suffering. If he is wounded to
23 take him to the hospital, to hand him over to further organs for their
24 processing. That was our task and that is what we did.
25 I have two cases that I can tell you about. Muslim children from
1 Butmir crossed over to my position and they were safely returned, four of
2 them. Also, there was this Muslim soldier, I know his name and surname,
3 Cigic Alija, he was a neighbour of mine --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Could I interrupt you. Muslim children were treated
5 in accordance with rules on prisoners of war?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I told you what happened in
7 my situation and then you will decide whether this was right or not.
8 These Muslim children were --
9 JUDGE ORIE: No, I'm more puzzled by your understanding of what a
10 prisoner of war is, because I've not heard ever of children being treated
11 as prisoners of war under the regulations. It's -- at least it raises
12 some doubt as to your knowledge of what a prisoner of war is.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Obviously we haven't understood
14 each other. I am just giving you an example, something that happened.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But an example --
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] An example of what I did.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But my questions were about the rights of
18 prisoners of war, and if you give as an example on how you treat a child,
19 then this may raise some doubts as to your understanding of what a
20 prisoner of war is.
21 Could I ask you, could you tell me briefly because in paragraph 3
22 a distinction is made between the convention of the law on customs of
23 war -- of a land war, 1907, and the Geneva Conventions. Could you
24 briefly explain to me where is approximately the difference between this
25 1907 convention on the law of land and the Geneva Conventions of 1949?
1 Could you tell me approximately where is to be found under one -- in one
2 and what is to be found in the others?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge, sir, I am not an officer who
4 attended officers school. I am a man who is in the catering business,
5 who owned a restaurant of his own, who completed a school for catering
6 and tourism, and I didn't really deal with such matters.
7 JUDGE ORIE: The only thing that I'm exploring is what it means
8 if one says this was fully implied if you do not know exactly what it is
9 about. Now, I'm not blaming you, I'm just asking you whether you could
10 give me what is to be found under one and what is to be found in the
11 other. Apparently, you can't tell me, and there may be good reasons for
12 that, I was not asking yet about the reasons.
13 So do I understand your answer to be that you could not tell us
14 what approximately is found in the one and what is approximately found in
15 the other?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for those answers.
18 Could -- I would like to -- we will adjourn for the day and I
19 would like to ask you to come back tomorrow morning at 9.30. And
20 meanwhile, I instruct you that you should not speak with anyone about
21 your testimony, whether that is testimony you have given today or whether
22 it's testimony still to be given tomorrow. And then we'd like to see you
23 back tomorrow morning. You may follow the usher.
24 [The witness stands down]
25 JUDGE ORIE: We will adjourn for the day and we will resume
1 tomorrow, Wednesday, the 11th of June, at 9.30 in the morning, in this
2 same courtroom, I.
3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.19 p.m.,
4 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 11th day
5 of June, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.