1 Thursday, 12 June 2014
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.44 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
9 This is case IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 I'd like to deal briefly with a -- let me see. No, I'll leave
12 that until after we've heard the next witness.
13 Are there any preliminaries to be raised?
15 [Prosecution counsel confer]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 MS. HASAN: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours. Good --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, yes --
19 MS. HASAN: -- morning, everyone.
20 JUDGE ORIE: -- Ms. Hasan, you want to -- because we ended
21 yesterday with a submission you made on -- on two different statements.
22 Has that any follow-up?
23 MS. HASAN: Well, we still have concerns about the process
24 involved, and my understanding was that was going to be addressed this
25 morning, before the appearance of the witness.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Any other matter?
2 MS. HASAN: No.
3 JUDGE ORIE: No. Then the Chamber would like to be informed in
4 detail about the two statements. You said yesterday, Ms. Hasan, that
5 they were signed on the same date. Is that accurate?
6 MS. HASAN: That's correct. It appears to me that it's the same
7 witness acknowledgment or confirmation that is appended to both versions
8 of the statement.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 Mr. Lukic, could you clarify what happened? And in order to
11 avoid any confusion, the Chamber is aware that there are two versions of
12 the statement. The one is -- consists of 27 paragraphs; the other one
13 consists of 25 paragraphs. So, in order to avoid any confusion, could
14 you always refer to which one, the 27 or the 25 version, you are dealing
16 Mr. Lukic.
17 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. Good morning, Your Honours.
18 I will try to explain the confusion that arose in connection with
19 this witness. The 25-paragraph statement is longer, although it has less
20 paragraphs, and it was part of a -- our 92 ter package offered with this
21 witness, actually, coming witness.
22 The witness signed that statement, and it's obvious from the
23 signature page where it -- it says that he signed a statement that has
24 nine pages. And that's that -- actually, this 25-paragraph statement.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Let's have a look at the ...
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But could you please -- we see that, that it
3 was -- well, at least there is a signature on the statement, 2nd of May,
4 and then we also see the numbering of those pages may require some
5 additional explanation as well. It moves from 18 to 2, 3, 4, 5, 26,
6 which is a rather strange order. But -- okay. Could you tell us exactly
7 chronologically what happened. The witness was interviewed when?
8 MR. LUKIC: As it says here, he was interviewed in March and
9 April 2013, and in February 2014.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That -- what happened then. He was
11 interviewed. When was his statement put on paper?
12 MR. LUKIC: His statement was put on paper after that, but, as
13 you know, it wasn't signed.
14 JUDGE ORIE: I know that. But when was it put on paper?
15 Immediately after the last day. That's in February. Or ...
16 MR. LUKIC: I don't know that.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. How did it then happen that two versions were
19 MR. LUKIC: As you could see, several people spoke to this person
20 but not at the same time.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 MR. LUKIC: And I know that the last conversation --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Well, we do not know whether they were all there
24 during all these interviews or not because that information is not
25 provided here. So it could well be that all three have been present
1 during all the four days, but it's also possible that not all of them
2 attended all the four days. Do you know?
3 MR. LUKIC: Not all of them, I think, attended all four days.
4 JUDGE ORIE: No, that's what you think. Yes, okay.
5 So interviewed, you don't know when it was put on paper. How did
6 it happen that two versions were drafted?
7 MR. LUKIC: Two people worked at the same time parallelly --
8 parallel --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 MR. LUKIC: -- and they produced two statements. The longer
11 statement, 25-paragraph statement, was offered through 92 ter motion but
12 we had the shorter one in our system as well, of course. Essentially,
13 there is -- I think there is nothing different in those statements, only
14 probably in different words. They even compared each other's statements,
15 that's compilation, actually. They mixed their work.
16 But our Case Manager was back home when we had to file the -- the
17 signatures. From the field, we got only two pages to expedite things.
18 We got only first and the last page in e-mail, and we forwarded that to
19 the Prosecution so they have only this first and last page as we got in
20 the e-mail. Since our Case Manager was not here, somebody else had to do
21 his job and did it wrongly, attached signatures to the shorter statement,
22 and then it was sent as allegedly and it was not checked that it should
23 be with the statement of nine pages, not with the statement of five
24 pages. And that's what created all the confusion.
25 So the witness, and you will probably ask him, the witness signed
1 the statement, nine-page statement.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: When did the witness sign the -- which statement?
3 MR. LUKIC: He signed nine-page statement on the -- here it says
4 10th of April.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But the question is --
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I can see that. But when did he sign it?
7 MR. LUKIC: We have witness here. Maybe it's better to ask him.
8 JUDGE ORIE: No, but, Mr. Lukic --
9 MR. LUKIC: I really don't know that.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, you should know. You should know whether
11 the witness signed the statement on the day on which he is said to have
12 signed it under present circumstances. Under normal circumstances I
13 would agree with you that you accept that it was signed on the date as
14 mentioned, but when there are two versions, when the signature apparently
15 can be attached to another statement, then under those circumstances,
16 you, as lead counsel, should know exactly what happened.
17 So you say: I do not know whether it really was signed on the
18 10th of April?
19 MR. LUKIC: I don't know.
20 JUDGE ORIE: You don't know where it was signed?
21 MR. LUKIC: I know it was signed in Sarajevo. They had to go
22 into the field.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But you do not know what was then presented to
25 MR. LUKIC: Nine-page statement.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Nine-page statement.
2 MR. LUKIC: I asked the statement yesterday while on the phone
3 with Ms. Hasan, I asked the witness, "Which statement was presented to
4 you," and he told me that it was nine-page. I put number nine.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Let's then --
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I ask why wasn't this signed statement with
7 the date of 10th April attached to the 92 ter motion? There was, as we
8 see it, only an unsigned version of the statement, although you had
9 already the signed -- the signature of the witness.
10 MR. LUKIC: That -- that's why it creates confusion on my part as
11 well. I think that it's not signed on this date. Otherwise we would
12 attach. Obviously they had to go into the field after 5th of May, so ...
13 JUDGE ORIE: And then if he signed on the -- after the
14 5th of May --
15 MR. LUKIC: Could be 10th of May. I really --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. But if it says that --
17 MR. LUKIC: I tried --
18 JUDGE ORIE: If it says that it was signed on the 10th of April,
19 then --
20 MR. LUKIC: Now -- now my colleague -- sorry. My colleague
21 Ivetic is telling me that we got it on the 12th of May, so it must be
22 10th of May.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. But if you had to send back someone early
24 May to get a signature, then, to say the least, one is surprised to find
25 a signature dated the 10th of April. We'll ask the witness about it,
1 and --
2 MR. LUKIC: That's why we think that's the best not go with the
3 statements and that's why we propose to have this witness viva voce.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that doesn't resolve the whole of the problem.
5 Especially not the last portion of the problem I hinted at; that is
6 that there may be a falsity in the dates of signature, and if this
7 happens here, of course, the Chamber, as always, until now, relied on
8 your professionality, but if these kind of things happen and if just
9 signatures are attached to statements one version, another version, one
10 working on it, another person working on it, comparing, but nevertheless,
11 they're all the same but they're not the same, they're different, that's
12 something that is of great concern to the Chamber. That's also the
13 reason why even if the witness testifies viva voce, that we,
14 nevertheless, want this to be sorted out in detail.
15 MR. LUKIC: I -- I had a strange question, Your Honour, last
16 night. One of the investigators in the field, from the field, asked me,
17 should I have date of the -- when we took the statement or the date when
18 he is really signing. So --
19 JUDGE ORIE: If that is a question, then please do something
20 about the training of your persons --
21 MR. LUKIC: I did explain, and it was last night so ...
22 JUDGE ORIE: The concern only grows at this moment.
23 MR. LUKIC: Yes. But I think that he hasn't started giving the
24 statements for signatures yet. So he --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Well, we do not know that. And we do not know who
1 you are talking about. Let's --
2 Mr. Groome.
3 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, can I say that earlier I had this
4 concern and it is growing in my mind, the disconnection between the
5 signature page and the statement. I'm going to ask the Chamber to give
6 an instruction that, from this point forward, the statements and the
7 signature page, the signatures should appear after the last paragraph in
8 the statement and not be some separate document. I think that would
9 alleviate some of the issues that are coming to the fore now.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
11 MR. LUKIC: The statements are -- some of the statements are
12 already sent, I think, to the field and for the translation at the same
13 time, and I think that we have the same pattern.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Lukic, that's, of course, also a lack of
15 professionality. If I receive a draft which I'm supposed to sign, if I
16 have the signature page separate, I'll send my staff back and insist on
17 having part of the decision on the page I sign. That's simple,
18 professional behaviour, and I do understand that it's -- now, and if you
19 deviate from that, that's one. But if you then attach the statement
20 to -- the signature page to a statement to which it doesn't belong, then
21 the basis for this professional rule becomes the more clearer.
22 Mr. Groome.
23 MR. GROOME: Can I also ask that Mr. Lukic have the witness
24 initial and date each page of the statement since that would remove any
25 kind of confusion when it was reviewed by the witness.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, we'll see how this develops because we
2 do understand from Mr. Lukic that some statements are signed already.
3 We'll later consider how to deal with those. At least for any new
4 statement, Mr. Lukic, this would be the rule: No separate signature
5 pages and every page of the statement to be signed or as initialled.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Then if the Defence is ready to call its next
8 witness, Mr. Batinic, could he be escorted into the courtroom.
9 The Chamber may wish to clarify the issue with the witness first,
10 Mr. Lukic.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 [The witness entered court]
13 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Batinic. Before you give
14 evidence, the Rules require that you make a solemn declaration. The text
15 is now handed out to you. Could you please make that solemn declaration.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.
17 I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,
18 and nothing but the truth.
19 WITNESS: MILORAD BATINIC
20 [Witness answered through interpreter]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Batinic. Please be seated.
22 Mr. Batinic, before you'll be examined by the Defence, there are
23 a few questions about a statement you've given to Defence counsel.
24 Could I have 1D01604 on the screen.
25 Mr. Batinic, do you see the cover page of this statement; and do
1 you recognise the signature?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it's my signature.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Could we go to the last page of the same document.
4 Mr. Batinic, on this last page, do you recognise the signature?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it's my handwriting.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Do you see the date below it? And could you tell us
7 whether you wrote that date or whether you -- someone else did.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's my handwriting.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Now, did you write this down on the 10th of April,
10 as it says?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think I wrote this on the
12 10th of April, in the presence of the gentleman from Belgrade.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Could you tell us exactly then where you were
14 when you signed this statement?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] East Sarajevo.
16 JUDGE ORIE: With whom were you.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was with Mr. Dundjer.
18 JUDGE ORIE: With Mr. Dundjer alone?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Now, this was not one of the dates on which you were
21 interviewed. Could you tell us how you came to the place in
22 East Sarajevo where you signed this statement, this page?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. Dundjer came and called
24 me to come. There were other witnesses signing papers. He was in a
25 hurry, under some sort of pressure. Many people had to do this
1 paperwork. Those were orders from The Hague, as I was told.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, how much time did you take to sign? Was
3 it a matter of minutes, was it half an hour? Did you have to wait very
4 long? Could you describe in detail what happened on that day.
5 First of all, who invited you? Was it done by telephone?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it was a telephone call. I
7 had been invited before to be there in East Sarajevo --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, let's now focus on the day when you went there
9 for your signature.
10 You received a call. From whom?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I got a telephone call from
12 Belgrade, telling me that Mr. Dundjer would be there on that day and that
13 I should also come to sign this.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. What was the place where you would meet him?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's the office of the
16 administration for co-operation with The Hague, as far as I could see.
17 And other witnesses beside me had come. But I reviewed my document and
18 said some corrections were needed because some things did not really fit.
19 JUDGE ORIE: I take it step by step.
20 You received a phone call. How many days before you were
21 supposed to go to that building?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it was the day before.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Had you received at that time already a written
24 version of the statement drafted on the basis of the --
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. I did not receive the
1 statement. I saw it at the Office for Co-operation with The Hague
3 JUDGE ORIE: You went to the office. Could you tell us how many
4 witnesses or persons you considered to have come for the same purpose
5 were there, approximately?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not everybody came at the same
7 time. There was a number of people, and, for a while, I sat in a cafe
8 waiting. I didn't want to interfere with the lawyer's job. But when I
9 was there, there were two more people. Then I left. Other people were
10 coming. After that, I took them to Pale, I mean, Mr. Dundjer. And some
11 people signed their statements in Pale. Because Mr. Dundjer was very
12 pressed for time.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's -- let's take it again step by step.
14 You came. What happened exactly?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Various witnesses came to the
16 office. They were given their statements, and they would review them and
17 sign them.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Now, just you yourself, you received your statement?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I reviewed my statement, and I
20 said corrections are needed because some dates do not correspond.
21 However, Mr. Dundjer said: Sign it, please. You will make the
22 corrections in The Hague. Because I could see he was pressed for time.
23 JUDGE ORIE: So you signed the statement, though you had
24 indicated that corrections were needed but they were not made yet?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: How much time did you get to review your statement?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I received a copy of the statement
3 that I didn't sign. I signed one copy and gave it to Mr. Dundjer, and I
4 saved one copy for me, so I had practically months to review it.
5 JUDGE ORIE: But at the moment when you signed it, you received
6 it, how much time elapsed between the moment you got the statement in
7 your hands until you signed?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So when I signed the original
9 statement, I received a copy that I took home. And that signed statement
10 was given to Mr. Dundjer. They were identical.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, do I understand that the corrections you
12 thought would be necessary, that you only detected them after you had
13 signed, or did you immediately say: It's not accurate. It needs to be
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely. I said it immediately.
16 I said immediately: There are mistakes in names and dates, et cetera.
17 Mr. Dundjer said: It's not a problem. You will make these corrections
18 together with lawyer Lukic. He was simply under pressure for those
19 documents to be filed as soon as possible. Those were orders in
20 The Hague. And he was then dealing with 20 different witnesses, I think.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. 20 witnesses is the total number of people you
22 saw were around at any point in time? Is that how I have to understand
23 it? Or is it that you were told that there were 20? Or how did you come
24 to the number of 20?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll explain. That morning when I
1 arrived, perhaps around 9.30, I know that some people had already passed
2 through that office and signed their statements. There were some people
3 around at that moment when I was in a cafe. Other people were coming and
4 going, and then we left for Pale.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Can I stop you there first. How did you know that
6 others had come all ready and had already signed? Had they left? And if
7 so, how did you know that they had been there?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know. The secretary was there.
9 And I heard from her that some people had already signed their
10 statements, before me. And then later, I drove Mr. Dundjer to Pale where
11 there were some more people signing statements.
12 JUDGE ORIE: We'll come to that in a second.
13 So you got the statement. You reviewed it, said that there were
14 inaccuracies, and you were invited nevertheless to sign.
15 Now, how much time did you take to read through it up till the
16 moment that you were urged to sign despite inaccuracies? Was it
17 ten minutes? Was it half an hour? Was it an hour?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know exactly how many
19 minutes, but I did review the whole statement in detail and indicated
20 which corrections needed to be made. And twice I said: I don't want to
21 sign this. It's not correct. And he responded: Go on, sign it. Those
22 are orders from The Hague. You will correct it on the ground with
23 Mr. Lukic. So then I signed.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. And then you signed. You do not know exactly
25 how much time you needed for that. Okay. And then you said you went to
1 Pale with Mr. Dundjer.
2 Why did you go to Pale? Did he ask you or ...?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said: I'll give you a lift to
4 make it shorter, because there are more people to sign their statements,
5 and I took them to Pale because I know the place.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. How many people were in your car? Was there
7 just Mr. Dundjer or were there others and what was their function?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Only Mr. Dundjer. Two or three
9 more people came to Pale.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And were they persons who had also signed or
11 were they just people you knew or what the other three people -- or do
12 you mean the three people came to Pale for signing their statement?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely, Your Honour. They
14 signed their statements in Pale.
15 JUDGE ORIE: And they were not your car?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Do you remember who these three were by name?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember one name, Mr. Cvoro, who
19 had already testified by now. The other two I don't remember. I
20 remember only Mr. Cvoro.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You met him here in The Hague? You met him in
22 Pale and not in The Hague?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I met him in Pale, not
24 The Hague.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Now, were you present when these three persons in
1 Pale signed their statements?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I was there. I know the two
3 of them signed. As for the third one, I went out into the street to have
4 a smoke, so I didn't see the third man actually signing, but I'm sure he
5 did. And then I went back to East Sarajevo.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Were you also present when they reviewed their
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I remember two of them who
9 signed before me.
10 JUDGE ORIE: How long did they take for reading the statement
11 before they signed? If you remember.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember they signed very
13 quickly. They had already made their statements before somewhere else.
14 I think they just gave it a quick glance and signed.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Did they make any comments in relation to the
16 content of their statement?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, there was no comment.
18 JUDGE ORIE: After that, you returned home, if I understand you
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I took Mr. Dundjer back to the
21 hotel where he was staying, which is in East Sarajevo.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Now, there is another version of your statement. I
23 don't know whether you're aware of that. That is -- could we have a look
24 at 65 ter 1D07028.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In the meantime, I would like to ask one
2 Sir, we saw -- at the moment, we still see on the screen the date
3 of 10th of April, 2014. Did you really sign it on that day or one month
4 later, on the 10th of May?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can see the date, 10 April.
6 Whether it's true that I really signed on 10 May, I really don't know. I
7 don't know whether it was a month ago or two months ago.
8 JUDGE ORIE: How did you -- the date, did you look at your watch?
9 How did you --
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand, sorry.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. How did you -- I mean, you said you have --
12 was it -- were you told to say the date is the 10th of April or -- or did
13 you verify yourself whether it was the 10th of April?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't wear a watch, and I didn't
15 check. I just asked around, what's the date, and I was told 10 April.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: But do you know whether any month is April or
17 May even if you don't remember the date.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think I signed it on the
19 10th of April. Now I see that it's -- says 10 May. I didn't pay
20 attention. These are formalities to me. I signed because it was my
21 statement. And I asked around: What's the date today?
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sorry, you said just now:
23 "Now I see that it's -- that it says 10 May."
24 Where do you see that?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't see anywhere. I see
1 10 April, so it's the month of April. Now I see where the mistake lies.
2 At that time I wasn't paying attention.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Which mistake?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, if it really happened on the
5 10th of May and the document says 10 April, then it's a mistake. But as
6 for the statement itself, I signed it. This is my signature.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I understand that. But I'm not saying that it
8 was on the 10th of May. I'm just asking you: Was it from today
9 one month ago or two months ago, in your memory?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, you should really ask
11 Mr. Dundjer. I really don't remember the date. Time passes very quickly
12 for me. I don't pay attention to dates. Only when I see it in my
13 agenda, when I am dealing with journalists, when I'm dealing with
14 tourism, et cetera, when I have commitments, but I don't pay attention to
15 dates otherwise.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I'm not talking about dates but about months.
17 Was it one month ago or two months ago?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm really not sure. It could have
19 been either.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Could we first go to -- yes.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: How many statements in total did you sign?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I signed this statement. Whether
23 maybe I signed something last year at the first confrontation, maybe.
24 But it would have been more than a year ago. But I remember signing this
25 statement clearly. It was nine pages.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you just answer me clearly. How many
2 statements do you remember signing? Don't tell me a story. Say two,
3 three, four, one.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I signed one statement. That's
5 what I know for sure. It's this statement.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. The reason I'm asking you this
7 question is this. Today, at page 11 of the transcript, lines 18 to 23,
8 you said the following. Line 21 you were being asked by Judge Orie:
9 "Had you received at that time already a written version of the
10 statement drafted on the basis of," and then there was an overlap.
11 Your answer was:
12 "No, no. I did not receive a statement. I saw it at the Office
13 for Co-operation with The Hague Tribunal."
14 Just hold that.
15 At page 12, from -- page 12, line 24, to page 13, line 7, the
16 following is recorded:
17 "I received a copy of the statement that I did not sign. I
18 signed one copy and gave it to Mr. Dundjer and I saved one copy for me,
19 so I had practically months to review it."
20 Now, first you said you did not have -- receive any statement.
21 You saw it at the office administration where were told to sign. Now you
22 say you had practically months to review it.
23 Can -- how do you explain the difference?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'll repeat once
1 The statement that I signed at the office is the same as the copy
2 of the statement that I took home. I'll come back to that.
3 It's that signed statement. That statement was in my apartment,
4 and I reviewed. However, since Mr. Dundjer had said that Mr. Lukic would
5 be there to make the corrections, I didn't go into any further detail. I
6 just let him know that corrections needed to be made. So I signed the
7 statement in a rush because, as I was told, The Hague Tribunal ordered
8 that all the statements had to be signed. The man was really in a hurry,
9 dealing with a lot of people. So I signed the statement after telling
10 him many times that I didn't want to sign it because it's not entirely
11 correct, but after his insistence, I finally signed it, nevertheless,
12 to -- to simply make his life easier because he was really in big
13 trouble. I'm talking about Veljko Dundjer.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Let me clarify this briefly. When you said:
15 "... so I had practically months to review it," did you mean from the
16 moment you signed it up to now, here in The Hague? Do you mean this
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After the signing, that's this
19 period that I mean, I had the statement at my home for a month, maybe
20 two, and I had already said after glancing through it that corrections
21 needed to be made, and -- I had no further communication with people from
22 Belgrade --
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I just --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Okay --
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I understand that. I just wanted to clarify when
1 you -- when you are talking about the months to review it, it was the
2 month or two months after the signature?
3 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. I'll take it there --
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: I will take it there step by step again.
6 There were two copies. One you retained; the other one was
7 signed, and you left it behind.
8 Now, you had, you said, a month - at the same time it could be
9 one month or two months - to review it. What did you then -- how did you
10 communicate the details of the changes you wanted to be made? Did you
11 wait until you arrived in The Hague? Did you -- were you in touch with
12 Belgrade? What happened? Tell us exactly.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The most precise answer is that I
14 was waiting for Mr. Lukic to make these corrections in The Hague.
15 Because I'm not good at handling computers, it would have taken a lot of
16 time for me to do it back there. I thought we would do it here, and
17 that's what I had arranged with Mr. Dundjer.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. So you didn't do anything until you arrived
19 in The Hague.
20 Now, you arrived in The Hague. What then happened? You sat
21 together with Mr. Lukic or with someone else? With whom did you sit
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With Mr. Lukic. I was sitting with
24 him and making these corrections.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Now, your statement, which we looked at a minute
1 ago, was 27 paragraphs.
2 Could we have on the screen page 5 in the original.
3 You see that it has 27 paragraphs.
4 Now, did you ever see a new version of --
5 MS. HASAN: I hesitate to interrupt, Mr. President. But I
6 believe that this version we're looking at now is the --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, is the one --
8 MS. HASAN: If I'm not mistaken is the second version.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's the second version. Okay. Then I -- I
10 apologise. The one who is now before you is 27 paragraphs; whereas the
11 previous one was 25 paragraphs.
12 Now, can you explain exactly what did you tell Mr. Lukic what had
13 to be changed?
14 Did he come up with a proposal, or did you propose to him what
15 had to be changed?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I beg your pardon. I didn't make
17 any proposals to him and he didn't make any proposals to me. I just said
18 these are the corrections that should be made. And these are the
19 corrections that were made because I know, on the basis of the document,
20 what is correct and what is not correct and what I said and what is not
21 in line with the document.
22 Now, how this happened, how these paragraphs happened, I really
23 don't know. I just know that I was sitting with Mr. Lukic so that we
24 could make the corrections in this nine-page document.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now what changes were made, then, exactly?
1 I -- we see that there's a one -- on the cover page, there is a
2 handwritten correction but that's about your name. What else was then
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember very well the date was
5 1994 and it was supposed to be 1992 or 1993. So it's these minor points,
6 these nuances. The essence was not the change. For example, I have this
7 example. It says Novitski [phoen] instead of Olivier Mrowicki, things
8 like that. Names, years, that's the kind of mistake that was made, so it
9 changes the entire context. I think that most of the mistakes were of a
10 technical nature.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Now you indicated that that had to be changed. Did
12 you then see a new copy in which the changes were made or ...
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, precisely I have that copy,
14 so with Mr. Lukic, the one that I made with him, and I looked at it and
15 it was all correct. So I got that printed out, the corrections that we
16 had made.
17 JUDGE ORIE: So there was a new version compared to the one you
18 signed in Sarajevo, in which names, dates, years were changed. Was there
19 anything else that had changed?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Corrections of names, corrections
21 of years, I don't know what else was changed. Now how come 25, I don't
22 know. I mean, the first version was 27. Now, what it was that was
23 abbreviated, I don't know. Because of time and these proceedings, I
24 don't know. I just stuck to the things that I know, saying: This name
25 is not correct, this year is not correct, the context is not the one that
1 is being discussed. Those were my observations made to Mr. Lukic.
2 JUDGE ORIE: And then a new version was presented to you in which
3 the changes were incorporated?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I have that version. I think
5 it's in my hotel room.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And was that signed by you in any way or ...
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I can remember, I didn't
8 sign it. It's a correction.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And when was it that you sat together and that
10 you made these --
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was the day when I saw
12 Mr. Lukic. That was that Monday, since I flew in on Sunday. So we
13 started -- I mean, saw each other every day. I think the correction was
14 made on the first day. That would be Monday.
15 JUDGE ORIE: And when did you then receive the new copy, the new
16 version you say you have in your hotel room?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Lukic printed it out for me
18 immediately so I had it there in front of me. It was there.
19 JUDGE ORIE: So at the very moment that you made these
20 corrections, they were put in the computer and immediately a printout was
21 made on the basis of your corrections.
22 Would you still have that corrected version in your hotel room?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I should. I should have it. If
24 it's in the hotel room, that's where it is. It can be nowhere else.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Would you be willing to provide that changed version
1 to the Chamber?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll be pleased to do that. And I
3 will take the statement, if it is there.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, if you say you left it in your hotel
5 room, how could it not be there anymore?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think so.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could --
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Should be there. I have a few
9 statements here. These are questions, actually. If it's not in the
10 hotel room, then Mr. Lukic has it. I know that he printed it out for me,
11 so maybe it's in his office. In my hotel room, I have quite a few
12 papers, so I looked at it after he printed it out for me. I really don't
13 know. Maybe I took it to the hotel room. I'll take a look. But it
14 certainly does exist. I finished these corrections with Mr. Lukic. I
15 reviewed the document. There was no need for me to sign it.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Now you have a few papers in front of you.
17 You say: "These are questions." Could you explain to us what the papers
18 are that you were just pulling out of your pocket. Questions written
19 down by whom and for what purpose?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll be very happy to answer that
21 question to you. Because of these problems concerning statements,
22 yesterday Mr. Lukic said: Then we're going to do this live, that is to
23 say, without these signed statements. So our time is very brief, so this
24 is a reminder for you to be reminded of what the questions are going to
25 be. So that is what I have here. It is simply as a reminder for me to
1 see how the trial will go. Time has been shortened so we simply won't be
2 able to go through the statements, I guess the Court does not accept
3 them, so these are the questions and they are right here.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Is it just questions or is there more on these
5 pieces of paper? Is there also hints to answers or any other notes?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it's simply his questions. I
7 have them here, and then I made some notes, simply for the sake of my
8 memory, so that I could remember the exact things that happened. I can
9 give this to you. These are the questions. So that is how he explained
10 the process to me, that it would be live. There are some problems with
11 statements. They do not overlap. There are corrections so we'll have to
12 deal with it this way, unfortunately. But these are the questions that
13 will be put.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you jotted down reminders for the answers
15 to be given to those questions?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, precisely. Precisely. Just
17 to have it in front of me. I mean, well, of course, you can put all the
18 questions you like, Your Honour. I am ready to answer all the questions
19 you may have.
20 JUDGE ORIE: No doubt about that, Witness.
21 Just, did you jot down those reminders for answers to be given in
22 the presence of Mr. Lukic, or did you do it after he had left, or -- how
23 did you do that?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. Last night. I
25 sat down, simply trying to remember. It was a reminder for me
1 personally. You see, I'm a historian by training, that's my profession,
2 so chronology is important for me. And this a court, an exceptional
3 court, and I have to give expectational answers and it's a honour for me
4 to do so. That you ask me to come, that is.
5 JUDGE ORIE: You -- a minute ago, you offered that we could have
6 a look at the papers you just had. We gladly accept that offer. So if
7 you could provide it to the usher, then we may have a look at it and may
8 share that with the parties. Yes.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I can bring it to you myself.
10 The gentleman doesn't have to make an effort.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, well, that's how it works in this courtroom.
12 We will take a break. Witness, we'll take a break. And we'll
13 resume at 11.00. You may follow the usher. And hopefully soon we'll
14 start with your examination.
15 THE WITNESS: Met plezier, Meneer Judge.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Understood.
17 For the interpreters: With pleasure, Your Honour.
18 [The witness stands down]
19 --- Recess taken at 10.42 a.m.
20 --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.
21 JUDGE ORIE: We resume for a moment without the witness.
22 The Chamber received copies of the papers -- has received the
23 original of the paper the witness had before him which he said were
24 questions and his own annotations as reminders for answering those
1 Apart from that, it seems that the witness also has given us one
2 page which seems to be VWS guidance or information for a witness; at
3 least that's what we thought it most likely would be.
4 Then we have not sought, up till this moment, any translation of
5 the document, including the handwriting of the witness. But it would be
6 unfair to say that we do not have a -- a bit of an impression of some
7 subjects that are dealt with in those questions, if only on the basis of
8 the titles.
9 Mr. Lukic, the Chamber would like to know whether you have --
10 because we are not talking about two versions at this moment anymore, but
11 about three versions of a statement. Do you have a copy of the statement
12 which was produced last Monday, as the witness said, on the basis of his
13 comments and corrections to the statement he had signed earlier? He had
14 seen earlier, I should say.
15 MR. LUKIC: What I have with me, Your Honour, is information
16 report I sent to the Prosecution with those corrections.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
18 Ms. Hasan.
19 MS. HASAN: Yes, we did receive the information report on the --
20 Tuesday evening, the 10th. It is has been uploaded under 65 ter 30802.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that one of the parties will use that
22 later or will put questions to the witness.
23 MR. LUKIC: You'll see three dates were corrected and one name.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So that corresponds very much with what the
25 witness told us, the type of -- yes.
1 Then it's still a puzzle how the two versions, the
2 25-paragraph and the 27-paragraph, how they could be produced. We have
3 not looked at it in detail at this moment, but, of course, by comparing
4 them, you could ask yourself whether they were produced independently,
5 where you would expect a totally different text, or whether they are in
6 one way or another related, the one to the other --
7 MR. LUKIC: They are related. But this shorter version with more
8 paragraphs is -- is written by another team member who was trying,
9 reading the first, the longer one, not -- not being able to understand
10 everything, trying to cut it down and make it more understandable.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Which suggests that the content of the new version
12 could not be any different, at least could not add anything, because that
13 person apparently had not spoken to the witness --
14 MR. LUKIC: The person did speak with the witness. So he had his
15 own notes. So it's some kind of compilation.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you tell us who that was Mr. Lukic.
17 MR. LUKIC: Sasa Lukic.
18 JUDGE ORIE: It was Sasa Lukic who made a new version. And the
19 first version was drafted by --
20 MR. LUKIC: Dundjer Milenko.
21 JUDGE ORIE: By Dundjer Milenko. Yes. Further, I would give you
22 an opportunity to comment on what the witness said about signing
23 statements. Changes will be made later in The Hague, sign now.
24 MR. LUKIC: Yeah. I had -- I screamed at my investigators in the
25 field when I heard about it because I told them --
1 JUDGE ORIE: When did you hear about it?
2 MR. LUKIC: When the witnesses -- when this witness complained
3 here that he was told that the changes would be made in The Hague. I --
4 I was trying to explain to the investigators that then it's too late.
5 The changes have to be done before, in advance, to give them to the
6 Prosecution if there are any changes.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, the first thing you would have had to do
8 was to inform the Chamber that signatures were requested from witnesses
9 where they did not yet agree with the statements. That was your duty to
10 do first of anything else, even before starting screaming to your team
12 I leave it to that.
13 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I put one observation on the record.
15 The Witness Batinic told us that he was, together with
16 Witness Cvoro at Pale and signing statements. I just looked into the
17 statement of Witness Cvoro, this is D492, and this is dated
18 10th of May, 2014. I just want to put that on the record because we had
19 that discussion about the date.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And it is not only about Witness Cvoro but all
21 the other statements apparently were signed on the 10th of May. We have
22 seen many of those dates, so apparently there has been -- most likely
23 there has been a mistake in the date.
24 Ms. Hasan, I would like to give you an opportunity as well to
25 briefly comment on what we've heard until now, to see whether we can
1 proceed or whether there's anything else we should do at this moment.
2 MS. HASAN: Thank you, Mr. President.
3 There are still some areas for clarification. I can do that
4 during the cross-examination. However, there are some matters that
5 perhaps Mr. Lukic can clarify. For instance, as I understand it now,
6 Milenko Dundjer takes a first statement from the witness. At some later
7 time - and we don't know when - Sasa Lukic sees the witness, receiving
8 information. I don't know if it's the same information from the witness,
9 additional information. At some point the Defence has received more
10 information for this witness because in the second version of the
11 statement, while it is true that there are some language changes, some
12 abbreviations, some paragraphs are cut, there are additions to the
13 statement. So there was clearly a point in time where more information
14 was given to this witness which, to me, it's not clear when the Defence
15 was aware of that new information because we only received the proofing
16 note on the 10th of June, which was two days ago. I don't know when
17 Sasa Lukic met with this witness and compiled this second version, which
18 we didn't see until yesterday.
19 Second, in the proofing note, it provides that the witness
20 reviewed his statement which is 65 ter 1D1604. This is the second
21 statement, second version. As far as I understood from the witness, this
22 was not the statement that he reviewed. And the clarifications that are
23 made in this proofing note are to the second version of the statement.
24 JUDGE ORIE: The second version being the short one. The
1 MS. HASAN: No, it would be the long -- the 27-paragraph.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I think the 27-paragraph is -- let me check now, and
3 let's put that clear forever. The -- let me have a look. The
4 27-paragraph is the paragraph [sic] which contains six pages and is
5 wrongly attached to the signatures.
6 MS. HASAN: Correct.
7 JUDGE ORIE: So the witness has reviewed the longer one, which is
8 25 paragraphs.
9 MS. HASAN: Yes --
10 JUDGE ORIE: So that's the one he reviewed when signing. And
11 that is the one which was -- not the one uploaded into e-court but --
12 MS. HASAN: Correct. Not the one uploaded into e-court but
13 apparently the one that was discussed during the proofing session.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you'd say that in this comedy of errors,
15 they put the wrong -- or tragedy of errors, I do not know how to say, but
16 that they put the wrong statement to the witness, at least it's recorded
17 that they put the wrong statement to the witness to review. Well, we
18 hear his testimony anyway viva voce, questions are known already --
19 MR. LUKIC: I can -- I can clarify a bit this confusion.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MR. LUKIC: Since I was not aware that there were two statements,
22 I gave the witness his statement. He actually brought it with him, the
23 statement which he was given in the field. And since I had 1D1604
24 uploaded as his statement, he was working with his statement when he was
25 talking about the dates, I was working with the statement that was
1 uploaded. So that's why being unaware of the existence of the -- the
2 other statement, that's why I made the proofing note according to the
3 statement I had and I worked with but he worked with his statement.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I haven't seen the proofing note so I do not
5 know whether references to paragraphs would confirm or would --
6 MR. LUKIC: We can send Your Honours the proofing note as well --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Anything else at this moment, Ms. Hasan, you
8 would like to raise.
9 MS. HASAN: Yes. If we can get clarification as to who appended
10 the declaration that was filed with the 92 ter package to the new
12 JUDGE ORIE: Who changed the -- Mr. Lukic.
13 MR. LUKIC: Declaration was changed?
14 JUDGE ORIE: No. But who attached the wrong statement to the
15 first and last signature pages?
16 MR. LUKIC: Mr. Ivetic did it. Since our case manager was not
17 here. His --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 MR. LUKIC: His wife, our case manager's wife was expecting at
20 that time. He [sic] gave a birth so he was home for a couple of days.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Everything fine with the baby?
22 MR. LUKIC: Everything's fine with the baby.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's important.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: And the mother.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and the mother.
1 MR. LUKIC: I dumped this task to Mr. Ivetic who was not
2 obviously privy with everything that should be done, but he could not say
3 no because we had to do it. And it was done wrongly.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now a lot of matters have been clarified, not
5 to say that some concerns remain. But, Ms. Hasan, anything else?
6 MS. HASAN: I believe I can address the rest of the matters
7 during the cross-examination.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then we'll ...
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
11 [Prosecution counsel confer]
12 MS. HASAN: Your Honours, just as the witness is being brought
13 in, my understanding is that the witness speaks English very well, so
14 should there be any matters that the witness should not hear, it's
15 probably best that he leave the courtroom.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's try to avoid it, but ...
17 MR. LUKIC: I just want to say it's my fifth question to ask him
18 which languages is he speaking so it would be clarified as well --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes, well --
20 MR. LUKIC: -- at the beginning. He speaks Dutch as well.
21 JUDGE ORIE: As I said before, we have not sought it to be
22 interpreted for us. So it's still a surprise what the questions will be.
23 But the question is superfluous now since both parties agree on
24 the witness mastering the English language.
25 Please proceed.
1 [The witness takes the stand]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Batinic, at this moment no further questions
3 about statements or versions or whatever. You'll now be examined on the
4 substance of the matter by Mr. Lukic. Mr. Lukic is counsel for
5 Mr. Mladic.
6 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Examination by Mr. Lukic:
8 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Batinic.
9 A. Good morning to you too. How are you?
10 Q. You're not here to put questions to anybody, not even to ask me
11 how I am. I am the one who will be putting all the questions.
12 A. I apologise.
13 Q. Just a little joke to break the ice.
14 A. Of course, it's in order.
15 Q. Can you please tell us for the record what is your name.
16 A. My name is Milorad Batinic. And more people know me as Lola,
17 which is my nickname.
18 Q. What about your education, can you tell us about that?
19 A. I have a university degree. I am a history teacher. However, I
20 have not been teaching for a while.
21 Q. Where did you live before the war?
22 A. I lived in Blazuj, about 15 kilometres away from the centre of
23 Sarajevo, near Ilidza.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask you to make a small pause between
25 question and answer and answer and question, so as to avoid overlapping
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. We did say that we should make little pauses. You can look at
4 the screen and you will see when the interpretation of your words, or
5 mine, stops.
6 What languages do you speak, Mr. Batinic?
7 A. I speak English and I'm fluent in Dutch.
8 Q. What is the nationality of your wife?
9 A. My wife is of Dutch origin. She's a Dutch citizen.
10 Q. Where did you work before the war?
11 A. My last employment was at Vrace, which is a memorial park. I
12 worked there as a curator.
13 Q. And how long did you go to work?
14 A. Until mid-April. The war had already started but we could still
15 go to work. One day we could no longer enter the city. There were
16 barricades, there was shelling, so it was dangerous.
17 Q. Please wait for the questions to be interpreted.
18 What about your parents? Where did they reside?
19 A. My parents lived in Sarajevo, on the main street in the very
20 centre of Sarajevo.
21 Q. What about the health of your parents?
22 A. My father is now 90, but my mother was not -- was not in good
23 health, and she died as a refugee in 1996.
24 Q. How did your mother move about at the beginning of the war?
25 A. She was wheelchair-bound because she had a leg amputated. With
1 the help of my father and with our help, she could move about, but only
2 with our help.
3 Q. Did you try to take your parents out of the city?
4 A. Yes, I did try desperately to take them out of the city. Owing
5 to my friend who's a Muslim - currently this is Bosniak nationality -
6 after the third attempt, he managed to bring them to the separation line.
7 And to this very day I am grateful to him for having done that.
8 Q. Did you help anybody else to move out of Sarajevo and when was
10 A. Yes, I remember that very well. During the war, in 1993, in the
11 month of December, I worked with the UNMO section of UNPROFOR. With the
12 help of a UN observer, I helped somebody to get out of the occupied part
13 of the city, and I also helped a friend of my wife's to go to the Serbian
14 part of the territory.
15 Q. Who was it who prevented civilians from leaving the city?
16 A. It was the Bosnian government, i.e., the Muslim authorities.
17 That's what we called them at the time. They were the ones who put
18 obstacles before the people. After they obtained many certificates, they
19 needed yet another one so many couldn't leave. In 1994, the so-called
20 blue roads were opened, but we have very little time, and I'd rather not
21 go into any detail of those developments. It would be too much.
22 Q. Did the Serbs prevent civilians from leaving the town?
23 A. No, never. They actually wanted to leave because their families,
24 their relatives were in the town.
25 Q. Did civilians get killed by sniper fire on the Serbian side of
1 the city?
2 A. Yes, of course. Especially in the part that was under the
3 control of Serbian soldiers, in the part of Sarajevo which is known as
5 Q. Did civilians get killed by other kind of fire in the Serbian
6 part of Sarajevo?
7 A. There was a case in October with UN observers. I went to the
8 hospital where an 11-year-old girl was dying, helpless. She had lost
9 both legs, and the doctors could not sedate her because there were no
10 medicines and we all cried. So people died as a result of shelling. The
11 doctors cried. I cried myself. My best man, who was a surgeon, said she
12 would be gone in ten minutes. And that proved to be correct.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to make a
14 break after the questions.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ilidza had been shelled. That's
16 when that happened.
17 JUDGE ORIE: You are again invited to make a break after the
18 question before you start your answer.
19 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
20 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Q. [Interpretation] It was not recorded what was shelled.
22 A. The centre of Ilidza was shelled.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to call up 1D2798 in
25 Q. And before the document appears on the screen, could you please
1 tell us whether any member of your family was killed or injured in
3 A. My two uncles were killed. The first one in Grbavica, as a
4 result of sniping from the Muslim side. He was a Croat, and he was on
5 his way to fetch his retirement money cheque.
6 Q. What was his name?
7 A. His name was Milovan Markovic. And the case we have on the
8 screen is the case of my other uncle, Marinko Vujicic.
9 Q. We'll come to that.
10 Let me ask you, you see the image on the screen. What does it
12 A. This is the exhumation of my uncle, Marinko Vujicic. He been
13 killed in Dobrinja at the beginning of 1992. His body was exhumed with
14 the help of Americans, sometime in 1998 or 1999, but I'm not sure of the
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to call up 1D02799.
17 Q. What did you know about the way your uncle, Marinko Vujicic, was
19 A. My aunt, Milojka Vujicic told me that he had been taken away from
20 their apartment. She said that members of some police force had arrived.
21 She told me that he been tortured, that he had been detained. He was
22 beaten up there. And after that, she never inquired about him. She
23 didn't know anything about his fate. Only later did she learn that had
24 he been killed and buried very close to their apartment, perhaps 400
25 metres away from their building in front of another building.
1 Q. Is this another photo from the exhumation of your uncle?
2 A. Yes, I took the photo myself.
3 Q. What does this photo depict?
4 A. This photo depicts some broken bones.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now let us look at 1D2797.
6 Q. You see a man in a uniform. Who was he?
7 A. He was a member of the Green Berets of the American army. Those
8 forces were in charge of special operations. I was their interpreter and
9 translator and they were the one who is helped me with the exhumation.
10 They secured the place.
11 Q. Who does the skull belong to?
12 A. To my late uncle, Marinko Vujicic.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender all the
14 three photos into evidence.
15 MS. HASAN: Your Honour, I do object to the admission of the
16 photos. The -- well, I haven't objected to the testimony coming in. The
17 photos, as far as I can tell, are not relevant to the responsibility of
18 the accused for the crimes charged in the indictment.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
20 MR. LUKIC: The photos and the whole part of the testimony is
21 very important to understand our rebuttal of the witnesses who testified
22 here for the Prosecution.
23 JUDGE ORIE: In what respect?
24 MR. LUKIC: Because they denied that there were any crimes. We
25 had even the inspector, police inspector, who praised himself that he was
1 this charge of war crimes in Sarajevo.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
3 Ms. Hasan.
4 MS. HASAN: I maintain the objection.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is denied.
7 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
8 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. And now we will move on to --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Madam Registrar, the number would be?
13 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D2798 receives number D520. Document
14 1D2799 receives number D521. And document 1D2797 receives number D522,
15 Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: D520 up to and including D522 are admitted into
18 MR. LUKIC: May I proceed?
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you may.
20 However, could the parties at any point in time consider to agree
21 on whether crimes were committed, whether snipers fired also at people
22 living in the Serb-controlled areas of Sarajevo. I don't know whether
23 you have ever discussed it, because we hear evidence that persons were
24 killed by shelling.
25 Now, is it the position of the Prosecution that shells never fell
1 there or -- it's all rather vague and rather -- killed by a shell
2 somewhere. But if the parties were in a position to agree on these
3 matters, that would -- might save a lot of time, and I would suggest that
4 you sit together and see what would or would not be possible in that
6 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, as I repeatedly stated throughout the
7 trial, the Prosecution is willing to sit down and seriously consider any
8 proposal from the Defence. Of course, we would want to be able to verify
9 that the fact that we agree to is accurate. We wouldn't want the Chamber
10 to include facts that are inaccurate simply because we agreed to them.
11 So -- but we're happy to do that at any time.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, would that be a suggestion to give it a
13 serious effort?
14 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. We will -- we have this task
15 of making the statements first. And only when -- because everybody is
16 submerged into this task, we all do -- are working on that part so --
17 JUDGE ORIE: It saves a lot of time in taking statements to deal
18 repetitiously with matters which might not be in dispute. So, therefore,
19 an investment there could save time in the long-term.
20 Please proceed.
21 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
22 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Batinic, and now I will have a few questions
23 about your military engagement. When were you mobilised?
24 A. The classical mobilisation started on the 20th of June. My
25 relatives and my neighbours and myself were taken to the line near Zenik.
1 That would have been the classical mobilisation. But when it comes to
2 the arming of the Territorial Defence to which we all belonged, that had
3 taken place even before that.
4 Q. This is just an introduction I wanted to make to ask you how you
5 became an interpreter.
6 A. I'll have to laugh a bit, Your Honours. I believe it's the only
7 case that somebody became an interpreter in that way.
8 On the 28th of June, that was my first combat experience
9 defending a position, and my machine-gun broke down. The next day, I
10 went to the Igman Brigade to have my machine-gun repaired because it had
11 jammed in the middle of fighting. They repaired it for me, and the next
12 day I went again to get ammunition so I can go back to my position. And
13 while I was waiting for this logistics man, I was sitting outside and saw
14 a truck arriving. I believe there were three observers and a girl with
15 them, and I greeted them in English. They went in to see the commander
16 while I continued to sit outside, and some half an hour later, the
17 commander, whom I, by the way, didn't know at all, called me in and
18 asked: Do you speak English? I said yes. And then he said: Okay.
19 From now on, you'll be an interpreter.
20 That's how I became an interpreter in the brigade.
21 Can I explain a bit about what happened?
22 Q. As you see, the record says that you became an interpreter in the
24 A. That's what the commander said: From now on you'll be my
25 interpreter. However, as I was working with Military Observers -- and I
1 was even wearing my normal uniform at the time and none of the UNMOs told
2 me that I am not supposed to wear that uniform. One day, a Danish man
3 came in and said: How can you wear the VRS uniform when you are --
4 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness be asked to slow down,
6 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you're invited to slow down. Otherwise
7 part of your words will be lost.
8 We were at the point where you said:
9 "One day, a Danish man came in and said: How can you wear the
10 VRS uniform when --" and then, would you please resume from there.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I'll slow
12 down. I'm just in a hurry because our time is short and there are so
13 many things to say.
14 So he said: How can you still wear a uniform when you are a
15 UN interpreter? And I said: Well, nobody had told me this before. So I
16 went to see the commander Blagota Kovacevic [phoen]. And the commander
17 says: Well, if that's what they told you, then turn your uniform back in
18 to supplies. And from that time on, I went around in civilian clothing.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I just put one question for clarification of
20 the records to you.
21 You were referring to the 28th and 29th of June. Which year are
22 you referring to?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you for asking, Your Honour.
24 That was year 1992.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: I also have a question for clarification. You
2 told us that your commander called you in after you greeted some people
3 in English. And said from then on you are going to be a commander --
4 you're going to be an interpreter for him.
5 Now this was a VRS commander, is that not so?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes --
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you please explain the transition from being
8 an interpreter for the commander to being an interpreter for the UNMOs,
9 because the two are now being mixed. I'm not quite sure when you became
10 the interpreter for the UNMOs.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'll explain the
13 On the 30th of June, I received an UNPROFOR ID card indicating I
14 was an interpreter although not a qualified one. So I had on the Serb
15 uniform with a UN ID card. That's where the confusion lay. Because
16 nobody had told me at that point that I, as a UN interpreter, cannot be a
17 uniformed person. But the commander had initially told me I would be his
18 interpreter. I was an interpreter, actually, for both him and the UNMOs.
19 And in July, a Dane arrived, who was better trained than the other
20 observers, and he was the first one who told me: How can you wear a
21 uniform? You are a civilian. You are a UN interpreter. So I went to
22 see my commander, and he said: Well, in that case, take your uniform
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]
25 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 [Interpretation] I would now like to look at a video-clip. I
2 gave the transcript in both B/C/S and English to the booths. The audio
3 is rather bad, but I believe with the -- between the audio and the text
4 we can understand it. We would rely on both the text and the audio.
5 Could we play 1D02796. My colleague Mr. Ivetic will do it.
6 JUDGE ORIE: We'll a play it twice. Is it a long version?
7 MR. LUKIC: It's two and half minutes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Two and a half minutes. Okay, we'll play it twice.
9 The first round to verify the accuracy of the transcript, and then in the
10 second round hear the translation, interpretation.
11 Please proceed.
12 [Video-clip played]
13 MR. LUKIC: Can we see it the second time with the translation
14 now, please.
15 JUDGE ORIE: We play it again and we'd like to hear the
17 [Video-clip played]
18 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Today the medical personnel of the
19 Blazuj hospital found two tanks with interesting contents among the
20 oxygen tanks received as humanitarian aid.
21 "The oxygen tanks were opened in the presence of UNPROFOR, and in
22 one of them gunpowder was found while the other was filled with mortar
24 "We are asking Dr. Pejic how did these tanks end up in the
1 "Dr. Pejic: This is how they arrived. The police at the border
2 crossing at Kobiljaca established that there were some oxygen tanks being
3 transported to the Kosevo Hospital or somewhere else, and pursuant to
4 some procedure, they took out ten tanks to be delivered to this area
5 here. Out of those ten, this hospital got five.
6 "To our astonishment, we found out that two of the five tanks did
7 not contain oxygen, that they were much heavier than the others.
8 "At first we thought it was water or something frozen, because
9 the weather was so cold, but even when it got warmer the tanks were as
10 heavy as before. And then we decided to call in the people who knew how
11 to handle these things.
12 "They opened the tanks and found out that they contained
14 "Female reporter: We do not know how many shipments like this
15 one have arrived in the hands of Muslim fighters through the UNPROFOR
16 under the motto 'Humanity Without Borders,' and we do not know how many
17 missiles have been made from their contents, do we?
18 "But considering the fact that in the recent months all the Serb
19 positions around Sarajevo, especially those at Hadzici and Ilidza, have
20 been shelled with handmade missiles every day, killing many innocent
21 civilians, especially children, we can say that with certainty a lot of
22 such shipments have arrived."
23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Were you present -- we've heard and seen this video. On this
1 occasion, were you present on the spot, at the scene?
2 A. Yes, I was present at the scene. In fact, Dr. Pejic had called
3 into the -- had called in UNMOs, and we were the first team who arrived
4 there. We established already in the depot that they contained
5 gunpowder, these tanks, and after that, members of the French Battalion
6 were called in, along with French -- along with television crews. But in
7 the first part, when the tanks were opened inside the depot, we were the
8 only ones there, and I was the interpreter.
9 Q. You heard what Dr. Pejic said. Was it established that one tank
10 contained mortar fuses and the other gunpowder?
11 A. Yes. We opened the first tank also, and a minute after we opened
12 the tank, the gunpowder turned into some sort of emulsion, a gel-like
13 substance, probably because of the contact with air.
14 MR. LUKIC: We would offer this video into the evidence.
15 MS. HASAN: Your Honours, I don't object to the video but we need
16 a little bit more clarification about its provenance, where does it come
17 from, what's the -- broadcast from where. I don't think we even know the
18 date of this incident.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
20 MR. LUKIC: I will try to cover that with the witness.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Then we put it on hold tendering it until we have
23 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
25 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
1 Q. [Interpretation] You heard what my learned friend Ms. Hasan wants
2 to know. Do you know who made this footage? Do you know the time when
3 this was happening? If you know.
4 A. This was footage made by a local Serb television, after the
5 report from Mr. Pejic -- Dr. Pejic. But I know that we arrived before
6 the TV crew, and in the depot we opened one of the tanks.
7 As for the time, I am certain it is 1992. The weather was rather
8 cold, and looking at the image of this Danish reporter, with whom I spent
9 some time together under shelling sometime later, I would guess it was
10 October or November. I know I was wearing a blue jacket, and it was
11 rather cold.
12 Q. Does this footage correspond to what you saw on the ground? I
13 mean, does this reflect the same situation as when you were present.
14 A. Well, I'm looking at it. I am looking at the transcript in order
15 not to reply too fast.
16 Yes, it's certainly that same footage. But after our first
17 on-site investigation, the French -- the French Battalion arrived, and
18 then the TV crew, and Dr. Pejic [Realtime transcript read in error
19 "Dr. Karadzic"] was still there.
20 MR. LUKIC: If the objection by the Prosecution still stands, I
21 can ask for this video to be MFI'd, since Dr. Pejic will be here and he
22 will testify about the same video.
23 JUDGE ORIE: May be good reason to ask a number to be assigned
24 and MFI the video.
25 Madam Registrar.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D2796 receives number D523,
2 Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: D523 is marked for identification.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I say something
5 about what is written here. The record says "Dr. Karadzic." No, it was
6 Dr. Pejic.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I see Dr. Pejic will be here but -- oh,
8 further [overlapping speakers] --
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I see "Dr. Karadzic."
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I heard that the -- interpreter saying
11 Dr. Pejic was still there. But the transcript will be reviewed after
12 this hearing, Mr. Batinic, so it's appreciated that you offer your
13 assistance --
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I mean to say is I was never
15 with Dr. Karadzic, and he wasn't there, at this place.
16 JUDGE ORIE: It has been clarified.
17 Mr. Lukic, we'll take a break in five minutes from now.
18 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. Noted.
19 Q. [Interpretation] Very briefly, we can move on to another topic
20 and finish it quickly.
21 Were you present at the transportation of people from one side of
22 the confrontation line to the other by UNPROFOR?
23 A. Do you mean the airport?
24 Q. The airport.
25 A. Yes, I remember that very well. It was sometime in 1993, if I
1 remember well. I was accompanying a Danish observer, Mr. Jan Pedersen, a
2 member of an UNMO section. He also had the chief of Lima with him, a
3 Russian observer, Sergei Fyodorov [phoen]. There was also a Swiss man
4 recording the whole event on camera, on video camera, and I was there as
5 an interpreter.
6 I remember the Military Observers had received a report, and I
7 was there interpreting, concerning some suspicious activity across the
8 airport; namely, that French forces were transporting Muslim troops
9 across the airport. That was a shocking report, and we went to have a
10 look. It was at night-time. We went there, and we were perhaps
11 800 metres away from the runway on the side controlled by the VRS at a
12 terrace of a house under cover, and we had a very good view of what was
13 going on since there was no rain and the visibility was quite good.
14 Under the headlights of the patrolling APCs, you could see that a part
15 of -- that Muslim soldiers were boarding French APCs, about ten men per
16 vehicle, and then they were moved to the other side. The members of the
17 patrols were not involved, only one part of them were involved, those
18 closer to Dobrinja.
19 It was a shock to us. It was all recorded and it was all turned
20 over to the UNPROFOR staff but we never saw that footage. It was never
21 published. It seems to have vanished. And from what Jan and Sergei
22 said, they called it "French taxi." So, for money, the French soldiers,
23 the French UNPROFOR, gave a lift to the enemy side. A month later, the
24 tunnel was opened so there was no need for that service anymore.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
1 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour, it's break time.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Time for a break.
3 We'd like to see you back in 20 minutes, Mr. Batinic.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
5 [The witness stands down]
6 JUDGE ORIE: We'll resume at 20 minutes past midday.
7 --- Recess taken at 12.02 p.m.
8 --- On resuming at 12.27 p.m.
9 JUDGE ORIE: We're waiting for the witness to be escorted back
10 into the courtroom.
11 Meanwhile, I put on the record that the original of the papers
12 that the witness provided to the Chamber have been returned to him during
13 the last break.
14 Mr. Mladic wants to consult apparently. Mr. Stojanovic, first
15 thing you should tell him is that he can remain seated.
16 Please be seated, Mr. Mladic.
17 MR. LUKIC: I think that Mr. Mladic wants to address
18 Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Well, he needs -- if he wants to address the
20 Chamber, Mr. Lukic, you know what it is. You can ask permission,
21 identifying exactly what Mr. Mladic intends to do, but it's not just
22 standing up and claiming that he can address the Court.
23 MR. LUKIC: We -- Mr. Mladic wanted us to raise the same issue
24 and I wanted to finish with this witness, thinking that we had enough
25 fuss today.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 MR. LUKIC: He wants to address the Chamber regarding his health,
3 that he cannot follow the trial for five days a week, that he really
4 feels sick.
5 [The witness takes the stand]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Then what should be done is that you file again or
7 make any submissions to express that, and it's also a matter which should
8 not be delayed too much. Therefore, if you would need time, you can make
9 submissions tomorrow morning, and -- so that we hear about it without
11 MR. LUKIC: And we, you know, instructed Mr. Mladic to tell the
12 doctor who is coming this afternoon the same.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. Well, you don't -- the Chamber is
14 not -- whatever Mr. Mladic thinks that he should tell the doctor, he
15 should tell the doctor. That is with or without instructions. And
16 certainly the Chamber stays out of it. The Chamber will receive later a
17 report, and we'll carefully consider whatever is written in that report.
18 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
19 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Batinic, can we continue?
21 A. Of course.
22 Q. Do you remember --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
24 Mr. Mladic, you should not inappropriately seek contact in any
25 way with the public gallery. This is where it happens, not in the public
1 gallery, so refrain from such actions.
2 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
3 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. [Interpretation] So, Mr. Batinic, do you remember that you
5 interpreted something at a meeting concerning incidents in May 1992,
6 known as the breadline incident in Vase Miskina. Could you tell us
7 briefly about that meeting?
8 A. Yes, I remember interpretation in relation to that incident that
9 had happened in the past. I wasn't working as an interpreter at the
10 time. However, I remember a meeting - it was sometime in the beginning
11 of 1993 - that had to do with this topic. It was in the Igman Brigade.
12 The commander was lieutenant-colonel at the time, Spasoje Cojic. He is
13 an artillery man otherwise. And I think that UNMOs were being made aware
14 of this, and then the team was still in the brigade, and we often talked.
15 I was present at the only interpreter for at that team. At that time the
16 team was called Lima 2. Later on it changed its name to Sierra Whiskey
17 1. I remember that Commander Cojic explained that it is the Serb side
18 that is always blamed for everything. And then, as an artillery expert,
19 he said --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Could I interrupt for a second.
21 The question was about a meeting concerning incidents in
22 May 1992. You're now telling us about the beginning of 1993. Is -- I'm
23 just seeking clarification.
24 MR. LUKIC: I incident was in May 1992. And that incident
25 from --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And the meeting was in the beginning of 1993?
2 Is that ... yes, that's what the witness said. This clarifies the issue.
3 Yes. In the -- in the English translation, it's unclear whether
4 May 1992 refers to the incidents or to the meeting. That's -- that's
5 what I sought to clarify.
6 MR. LUKIC: Mm-hm.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, continue, where you were
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I shall
10 proceed --
11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We can barely hear the
12 witness. Could he please be asked to speak into the microphone, and
13 could all unnecessary microphones please be switched off. Thank you.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please come closer to the microphone. The
15 interpreters have difficulties hearing you.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can you hear me better now?
17 So, in 1993, actually, it was the time when the brigade
18 commander, Cojic, got to meet the Military Observers and this was an
19 extensive meeting dealing with different topics, and, in a way, this was
20 touched upon too. Namely, that the Serbs were always Satanised by the
21 media. And then Commander Cojic mentioned, as an example, that incident
22 from 1992, May, it was towards the end of May 1992. It was called the
23 breadline incident. It was televised at the time. It was an incident
24 when many civilians got killed in this bread line. And I know full well
25 that he explained that it wasn't the Serb forces that had caused this
1 incident. Rather, that it had been staged.
2 He explained this by saying the following. No projectile was
3 ever fired at the bread line. Rather, in this narrow street,
4 Vase Miskina, there were land-mines that were in cellars of buildings in
5 this street. Also, according to the pathology reports, there was a
6 statement of the body parts that were injured, and on the basis of that,
7 he said with 100 per cent certainty that this was not a mortar shell.
8 Rather, that the whole incident had been staged.
9 Q. The people that you interpreted for, did they object, or did they
10 agree, or did they simply take no position?
11 A. As far as I can remember, these people had no position
12 whatsoever. They listened carefully because they are officers too. Now,
13 what part of the military they belonged to, I really don't know. But,
14 quite simply, they listened to that, surprised.
15 Q. Now I'd like to move onto a different topic. The content is
16 similar. The Markale incident on the 5th of February, 1994.
17 As an interpreter, did you participate in this meeting that had
18 to do with this incident? Can you tell us who the participants were and
19 when this took place?
20 A. I remember very well. Again, this Jan Pedersen was on the team.
21 He is a Dane. This was 1994, February. On his Motorola, he heard from
22 UN headquarters in Sarajevo that they were asking for an urgent
23 investigation regarding this incident. So we tried to establish direct
24 contact with General Stanislav Galic, who was commander of the
25 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.
1 First we went to the Igman Brigade in order to establish contact
2 to see where the general was and then we heard that the general was
3 attending a meeting in Ilidza that was under Serb control. We got into a
4 vehicle and we went to Hotel Serbia, as it was called at the time, where
5 the general had a meeting. However, we did not have an opportunity to
6 contact the general, who was attending a meeting. However, his security
7 man, if I can call him that, came to speak to us, Colonel Marko Lugonja.
8 When speaking to Marko, when we told him what happened, I noticed
9 that then-Colonel Lugonja was quite simply astonished. His comment was:
10 Well, that's impossible. He said: The Serb side did not do this. Well,
11 we're not stupid to do that because, as he said, there are some
12 negotiations going on right now, somewhere abroad. But at any rate, come
13 back in an hour to headquarters, to my headquarters in Lukavica, and I am
14 going to give you all the necessary information. I will check what it
15 was that happened. I'm going to check through my security service and
16 see what it was that had happened.
17 After an hour or so, I and Jan went to Colonel Lugonja, who, in a
18 way, was standing in for Galic as his first officer, and he said:
19 Please, take a seat. I know what happened. We sat there in his office,
20 and he immediately took a remote control, turned on the TV and --
21 actually, he was showing us a video on TV. And he said: Now I'm going
22 explain this to you and please take a look at this carefully. My service
23 already had this recorded, and they explained what happened.
24 So as we were viewing this, he said: Pay attention to what is
25 happening here. Take a look at these two men who are running away from
1 the scene. This is suspicious. Please take a look at this. There is
2 some plastic leg here. How come that is there? There is no body there.
3 And then he said: Take a look at this. Look at these pyramids
4 of potatoes that are on the stalls. This is a marketplace, right. Not a
5 single potato had fallen. Look at the bottles that on stalls. Not a
6 single bottle fell, not a single bottle was broken.
7 Then, one thing can I tell you for sure, our intelligence service
8 during this incident or before the incident found out that over the past
9 seven days, from the mortuary Kosevo, no funerals were taking place. The
10 bodies were kept at the mortuary there. Then our service intercepted a
11 conversation between two ambulance drivers on the Muslim side and it can
12 be heard quite clearly when one of them is telling the other in coded
13 language: Bring me more icicles.
14 I'm not a military expert I'm not an artillery man, that is what
15 he said, but this is an enormous number of casualties if it's just a
16 mortar shell. Also there are many people who are wounded and I really
17 doubt that we were the ones who did that. It is not in our interest at
18 all. I am convinced that this is rigged, a rigged process.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The last sentence I would like to clarify. You
20 said: "I am convinced that this is rigged, a rigged process."
21 Is that your opinion or are you referring to the participant of
22 this meeting?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have no opinion
24 here. I am just interpreting simultaneously what Colonel Lugonja was
25 saying, so I'm referring to his words.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us exactly what day and what time
3 this conversation, this meeting, took place?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know the exact date. So as
5 for the date when this incident happened, Markale, well, that's when it
6 happened. And I and the UNMO heard about it via Motorola. He had
7 contact with UN headquarters; that is to say, the information came from
9 JUDGE ORIE: So it was on the day of the incident itself, which,
10 I think the parties would agree, is the 5th of February, 1994.
11 What time exactly when you were watching this television, this
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was already after 12.00 when we
14 were watching this. Perhaps two or three hours after the incident.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Thank you. We're done with that.
18 Now I'm going to ask you -- actually, we're going to move on to
19 the time when members of UNPROFOR were being taken prisoner after the
20 NATO bombing of Serb positions started.
21 Could you please tell us whether - and in which way - you took
22 part in observing the situation.
23 A. Yes, we are talking about the year 1995. I don't know whether it
24 was in spring or in summer. I was a member of the Sierra Whiskey team.
25 I was their interpreter. Olivier Mrowicki was the team leader. He was
1 an air force man.
2 Q. Just a moment, please. Do you know the -- that name was
3 misspelled. Could you please slowly tell us the name of that man.
4 A. He was a French captain at the time. He was an air force member.
5 Olivier Mrowicki with a W.
6 Q. Please look at the screen and see whether this has been spelled
8 A. No. Olivier is correct but it is not Murowitski. Let me spell
9 in the military way.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Could you do that again in the military way but a
11 bit slower.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It will be my honour, Your Honours.
13 I'm looking at the name Olivier is correct. And now
15 JUDGE ORIE: Could you have a look at the screen whether it's now
16 correctly spelled?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Under A, I can't see anything and
18 there's nothing below that.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. No, do you see page 59, line 14?
21 A. The -- the typing is going on, I believe.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the typing is going on. If you move on eight
23 lines, there you find a word spelled. Otherwise, the usher should assist
25 THE WITNESS: That's not correct. Yeah, that's correct. That's
1 correct now.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
3 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
4 Q. And we mentioned Olivier Mrowicki and then I interrupted you.
5 A. [Interpretation] Olivier Mrowicki was the team leader and his
6 deputy was Captain Andy, a Brit, I can't remember his last name. We were
7 in the sector of the Igman Brigade after the bombing. Commander Cojic
8 assigned a guard to join the team. The team was billeted in the former
9 cafe Mediterrane [phoen]. And in my conversation with the commander, I
10 told him that I guaranteed that there would be no problem, that people
11 would not flee, that I would be there all the time because I lived there
12 and so on and so forth. And that's how things transpired.
13 There were no problems at all, the observers were semi-free, I
14 have to say. Their movement was limited to the house and the area around
15 the house. There was also a guard there. That guard had an automatic
16 rifle. However, as days went by, the rifle would be left in the room and
17 while the guard was outside of the house, which means that that rifle was
18 accessible to everybody who wanted to get a hold of it. And the
19 observers enjoyed good treatment.
20 I remember well that together with Captain Mrowicki, we boarded
21 my vehicle to go to Ilidza. We didn't want to use an UNPROFOR vehicle in
22 order to avoid attention. The commander of the 1st Battalion, Sesa, even
23 gave him a Serb uniform.
24 Q. You mentioned the name Sesa [Realtime transcript read in error
25 "Seselj"]. Do you know his name?
1 A. His name is Svetozar Guzina.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask you -- yes.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I said: "You mentioned the name
5 Sesa." And instead of "Sesa" I read "Seselj." The name should be
6 corrected. It's good now.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, whenever you see such a little sign it
8 means that it will be verified after this hearing because there are
9 doubts already on the accuracy of spelling. There's no need to have it
10 corrected on the spot. Otherwise, sessions would take two hours longer a
12 Could I seek clarification?
13 Witness, you said they were semi-free, although they were limited
14 in their movement. Limited to the house and to the area around the
15 house. And then -- first of all, do I understand they were not allowed
16 to leave and go back to the units, would they?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. When I said that they were
18 semi-free, I meant that their movement was restricted. They were not
19 allowed to leave the territory. They could be in the house and around
20 the house. They were not tied. They were not forced to do anything.
21 They were not taken away. There was a guard there, but they were on
22 really good terms with that guard. They even shared drinks together.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then -- this is the type of semi-freedom
24 every prisoner has, isn't it? He can stand up in his cell, he can walk
25 in his cell. Even during a couple of hours, he may be outside in the
1 yard. Is that what you consider to be semi-freedom?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Then let me put my next question to you, which is,
4 you said: Well, the guard was outside the house, and his rifle was
5 accessible to everyone. You seem to suggest that those who were not free
6 to leave could have taken that gun and could have used it and -- and that
7 was all without -- they were free to do all that and nothing would happen
8 to them. That's the suggestion in your answer.
9 Is that well understood?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that we did not
11 understand each other. I'd like to put this whole thing in simpler
12 terms, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: I thought there might be some misunderstanding.
14 That's the reason why I'm seeking clarification.
15 What about access to the rifle? Would you really consider it an
16 option for them to go to that rifle and to use it and then take that
17 rifle and walk out? Is that your suggestion? If not, please tell us
18 what it is.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, let me simplify. The
20 Military Observers had their own rooms. They were not confined to a
21 classical prison. The guard who was assigned to watch them carried that
22 weapon only one day. Already on the following day he left his weapon in
23 the room while he went to the toilet or while he decided to leave the
24 room, which means that the observers were free in that respect.
25 JUDGE ORIE: So they could take that weapon and walk out? Is
1 that your suggestion?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They could but they did not. It
3 didn't even cross their mind. Because they knew that nothing would
4 happen to them, judging by the way that they were treated.
5 JUDGE ORIE: But they couldn't leave.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me give you an example.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Just --
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Their movement was restricted
9 but --
10 JUDGE ORIE: So they were not too free to leave. That's -- if I
11 understood you well.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You understood me well. That's
13 correct. However, Olivier Mrowicki --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. We've heard the other details you've
15 told us.
16 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
17 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Q. [Interpretation] Continue. You started by saying
19 "Oliver Mrowicki," who did what at that moment?
20 A. Since we were good friends and since we both knew the commander,
21 Svetozar Guzina, we went to his place for a drink and he told him: My
22 friend, I'm giving you a uniform. Put it on so nobody will provoke you,
23 so nobody will take you for an observer, and -- and Lola can take you
24 anywhere you want to go. And we did go to places. I took him to
25 Vogosca. There were telephone lines there so he could talk to his
1 family. And then we returned to the team.
2 We went shopping for food, fruit juices. One day, we even went
3 across Sierra 1, which was the check-point of the Serbian army and
4 police, in the direction of Kiseljak, which means that he left the
5 territory, in legal terms, which was under the control of the Army of
6 Republika Srpska. Then he put a French uniform on and the security guy
7 who was at the check-point who knew me gave me two hours. I told him we
8 had to go and fetch food and fuel, and the security guy told me: Lola,
9 you have two hours, you have to be back within two hours. I'm holding
10 you responsible, you have to come back within two hours.
11 We went in the direction of Kiseljak. We crossed the Serbian
12 check-point, and then we were stopped by Canadians, who were taken by
13 surprise. They thought that we were headed for the Serbian side. They
14 never realised that we had arrived from the Serbian side, and then they
15 directed us towards Kiseljak, and then Mrowicki played dumb and he said:
16 Thank you for directing us in that way. We wouldn't know where to go
17 otherwise and we were on our way to fetch food and fuel anyway.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, the whole introduction of this was
19 episode was a bit unclear to me. Was that French person alone in that
20 house? I mean, the description is not very clear. And I do understand
21 that he was confined to that house, but he could go with you wherever he
22 wanted to go but he should return. Well, it's -- it's entirely unclear
23 to me, if you read or re-read the beginning of this episode, then there
24 is no framework in which I can put that. So if you would please do that.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Mr. Batinic, was Mrowicki also a prisoner in that house?
2 A. That was not a prison.
3 Q. So who -- what was his position?
4 A. He was the head of the Sierra Whiskey 1 team, and the team
5 members were all in that house.
6 JUDGE ORIE: And then my next question would be, Mr. Lukic: Were
7 these other team members also taken out for shopping or for filling up
8 their cars with gasoline, or did they stay behind in this semi-freedom on
9 those premises?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the other observers
11 did not go anywhere with us. They were in the house or around the house.
12 They could not go shopping. I gave my word to Commander Cojic for
13 Mrowicki. I vouched for his safety with my life. I was grateful to
14 UNPROFOR, they saved my life in 1994, and it was my duty to repay that
16 JUDGE ORIE: Have you ever considered that Mrowicki felt unsafe
17 not to return when all the others were still in semi-freedom on those
18 premises? Have you considered that?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it never crossed my
20 mind. I trusted Mrowicki.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
22 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
23 Q. [Interpretation] Let us see. You went to Kiseljak. You arrived
24 there after you were instructed by Canadians how to get there and then
25 you returned to the house where the others were.
1 A. Yes. That was some two hours after we purchased the food and
2 gasoline. But then we faced the problem with the same Canadians. We
3 didn't know how to return to the Serbian territory. It was a mission
4 impossible. We went across Lepenica, there's a little road that I knew
5 from before the war, so that's how -- the road that we took to go back.
6 And then we laughed at how we outsmarted the Canadians because there are
7 rules in the war, and one of them is to be resourceful and see how to get
9 Q. Thank you. I must say that Judge Orie understood you better than
10 I did. I never realised that Mrowicki was in the same group as the other
11 observers but Judge Orie helped me to understand.
12 Now I would like to know this: In the house where they were
13 billeted, had they been brought there or was there a place where they
14 were normally billeted even before their freedom of movement was
16 A. They were in that house. The commander arrived with that
17 soldier. We talked, and that's where they stayed. And the commander
18 said, I remember what he said: I will have a different treatment to --
19 towards you. Please trust me. Don't provoke me in any way because
20 nothing happen to you. I'm restricting your freedom of movement but I
21 also guarantee you safety.
22 I believe that that guard was there not to guard them but rather
23 to protect them from the locals.
24 Q. Thank you. I believe that we're done with that topic as well.
25 And now, just briefly, I'd like to go back to the times preceding the
2 Before the war, what did you know about Muslim paramilitary
4 A. As early as in 1991, there were rumours. There were always
5 rumours about some organisations known as the Green Berets, the
6 Patriotic League. The war had already been on in Croatia. Ethnically
7 based parties had already been established. Ethnic groups were firmly
8 tied to their leaders and the staple topic was who was to blame. And
9 then we heard about the Green Berets as a group of armed people, but
10 there was no accurate information about that.
11 Q. What was their first action in Sarajevo?
12 A. From what I remember, the first action was the killing of a
13 member of a Serb wedding party. I believe it was in March 1992. And
14 that spread panic among the Serbs. People were asking what happened in
15 town. At that time we heard it was done by members of the Green Berets.
16 I believe the name of one man was Baranovic. He was taken into custody,
17 taken to the police station but very quickly released, so the Serbs
18 stopped believing in the justice system. It was obvious that he was the
20 Q. Mr. Batinic, thank you. Those were all the questions I had for
22 A. Thank you, too.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
24 Ms. Hasan, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?
25 MS. HASAN: Yes, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Batinic, you'll now be cross-examined by
2 Ms. Hasan. Ms. Hasan is counsel for the Prosecution. You find her to
3 your right.
4 Cross-examination by Ms. Hasan:
5 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.
6 A. Good afternoon. This is a honour for me, Ms. Prosecutor.
7 Q. Could I just, for the record, get you to state your name. I just
8 noticed we don't have that.
9 A. My name is Milorad, last name Batinic. My nickname is Lola.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I think it was on the record, Ms. Hasan, but I'm
11 just trying to find it.
12 MS. HASAN: Sorry, I may have missed it.
13 Q. Now, Mr. Batinic, I'm just going to go back to the statements
14 that were taken, or the statement that was taken, from you.
15 Now, you mentioned that you went to Pale together with the
16 Defence team member, Mr. Dundjer.
17 A. Yes, that's right.
18 Q. Where did you go in Pale?
19 A. We took the new road which goes across Trebevic because he was in
20 a hurry and that's a shortcut. So we arrived at the centre of Pale. We
21 met up there in a cafe facing the police station.
22 Q. And you drove Mr. Dundjer to -- to that cafe. Did you stay with
23 him throughout his meeting with the three other witnesses that you recall
24 having been there?
25 A. Yes. I was there with him, and I was at that cafe.
1 Q. And that's where you mentioned you saw Mr. Zdravko Cvoro; is that
2 right? Cvoro.
3 A. That's right. I remember Cvoro. I don't know about Zdravko, but
4 I remember Cvoro. It's also the name of a journalist I know, and that's
5 how I remember it.
6 Q. Did you speak to Mr. Cvoro in Pale?
7 A. I wouldn't call it speaking. We were just introduced. I shook
8 his hand, saying: I think I know you from somewhere, and the rest of the
9 conversation was done by Mr. Dundjer.
10 Q. Did you hear Mr. Dundjer discuss the evidence of Mr. Cvoro with
11 him during that meeting?
12 A. I don't know what they were discussing concerning the statement.
13 The point was to have the document signed. I don't think there was much
14 conversation. Mr. Cvoro had his statement before him. There was more
15 talk about the schedule of departures to The Hague.
16 Q. I'm going to ask you about a few other individuals, and I'd like
17 you to tell me in you saw these individuals either in Belgrade or in
18 Pale, and for each individual, if you did see them, can you specify
19 whether it was in Belgrade or Pale.
20 Mile Sladoje?
21 A. Is that Commander Sladoje?
22 Q. Yes.
23 A. Again, I'm not sure it's the same man, but I think I met him in
24 East Sarajevo, on that same day, when we went to Pale. I'm not sure if
25 that's the same Sladoje. I know another commander, Cedo Sladoje. But if
1 you show me the picture, I'll remember.
2 Q. Okay. And did you have any discussions with Mile Sladoje?
3 A. I don't know what we would have to talk about.
4 Q. I'm not asking you about what you would have to talk about. Did
5 you have a conversation with him?
6 A. Please. If you have a photograph, I'll remember which Sladoje it
7 is, because it's such a common surname. I don't want to make a mistake.
8 If you show me a photo, I'll remember everything.
9 Q. Let's try it this way. The Sladoje that you saw there, did you
10 have any discussions with that person?
11 A. If that's the same Sladoje, I believe I saw him. But I'm telling
12 you, I don't know which one of the two it was. Two years ago, I even
13 attended a funeral of one Sladoje.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, did you see more than one Sladoje when you
15 were there?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just one.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Tell us whether you had a conversation with him.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I talked to one Sladoje at the
19 cafe, while the others were over there, signing statements.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. So you have a conversation. What was the
21 subject of your conversation?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If that's the same Sladoje --
23 JUDGE ORIE: No, no --
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- if we're talking about the same
25 person, I asked --
1 JUDGE ORIE: We are not talking about -- I am talking exclusively
2 about the Sladoje you have seen there. You don't have to bother about
3 whether -- what Sladoje I have on my mind. I haven't told you yet. Just
4 talk about the Sladoje you saw there and tell us what the subject of your
5 conversation was.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I asked him, because the face was
7 familiar, and if that's that same Sladoje that was the commander of
8 security somewhere --
9 JUDGE ORIE: I asked you not to bother about whether he is the
10 same or a different one. I asked you about your conversation with that
11 person you say had the name Sladoje. What was the subject of your
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Since we know each other, more or
14 less, all of us, and it's a very common name, I asked him what he was
15 doing during the war. He said he was in the security. Then I asked him:
16 Do you know this man, or that man. But I personally didn't know him.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Hasan.
18 MS. HASAN:
19 Q. Just so you know, Witness, I'm going to read the names of other
20 individuals who signed declarations similar to you on the dates that you
21 were in Pale.
22 So I'd like to ask you then about Mr. Stevan Veljevic. Was he
23 present; and, if so, where?
24 A. I don't remember this Veljevic. He wasn't at all interesting to
25 me. Can I explain?
1 JUDGE ORIE: No. Ms. Hasan is just trying to find out whether
2 some persons were present and whether you remember them when you went to
3 the place where you signed your statement and later to Pale.
4 Carefully listen to the questions and answer them.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we do that, just to clarify this. You say
6 you don't remember this Veljevic. "He was not at all interesting to me."
7 How do you know that he was not interesting to you if you don't
8 remember him?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, when some names from
10 our region are mentioned, because we are a small country and I'm a
11 historian, when you mention a surname, the Google in my brain starts
12 working. I know some routes, I know where names come from, which area.
13 But when this Veljevic was mentioned, it didn't ring a bell. I didn't
14 make a connection.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. What you are saying is: I have no
16 recollection that any of the persons who were there was known to you by
17 the name of Veljevic. If that's your answer, then that's clear.
18 Ms. Hasan.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Now it's
20 clear to me too.
21 MS. HASAN:
22 Q. All right. What about Milorad Dzida?
23 A. I don't know about him. I've never seen him. Maybe he was
24 there. I only paid attention to this Cvoro because of the famous
25 anchorwoman named Cvoro. And I asked him about his family, where he is
1 from, because this woman is -- is very beautiful, and I thought perhaps
2 it's his daughter.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Now, could you please briefly answer the questions.
4 Ms. Hasan will now mention other names and what she wants to know is
5 whether there was any person there which you knew by that name. Nothing
6 more, nothing less, whether they had beautiful daughters or parents.
7 Ms. Hasan.
8 MS. HASAN:
13 [Private session]
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
13 MS. HASAN:
14 Q. So let's move on to the next person. Slavko Gengo.
15 A. Yes. Slavko Gengo. That's, in fact, the name whose name I
16 confused. That's the person I sat in the cafe with. I was sitting with
17 Slavko, and we discussed my brother-in-law, a Croat, who was with him in
18 the barracks before the war. Now it's coming back to me. Forget about
19 that first person. The one who sat with me in the cafe is Gengo.
20 Q. Sorry, you say "forget about the first person." Which person are
21 you referring to?
22 JUDGE ORIE: Is that the one --
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sladoje. Forget about Sladoje.
24 Gengo is the one who was with me in the cafe.
25 MS. HASAN:
1 Q. Now, with -- with your discussions with Mr. Gengo in the cafe,
2 besides talking to him about his -- about your brother-in-law, did you
3 discuss any of the information in your statement or any information in
4 his statement or -- or your upcoming testimony here?
5 A. Your Honour, we didn't discuss anything. We didn't discuss any
6 statements whatsoever.
7 Q. Dragan Maletic.
8 A. The name is familiar, but I can't remember.
9 Q. Is it familiar because you saw him that day?
10 A. Possibly. Very possible.
11 Q. Nikola Mijatovic.
12 A. The name is familiar. I may have seen him.
13 Q. You may have seen him. Do you -- do you recall having any
14 discussions with him on that specific day?
15 A. If I see a photograph, I might remember. From the name, I can't
16 tell you anything.
17 Q. Zdravko Cvoro. Oh, sorry, we already discussed him.
18 JUDGE ORIE: We've dealt with him, Ms. Hasan.
19 MS. HASAN: Yes.
20 Q. Predrag Trapara.
21 A. Trapara is a very large family, a common name. I don't know if
22 it's the same person --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, again, the simple question is whether there
24 was any person present known to you by the name mentioned by Ms. Hasan.
25 Was there anyone that was known to you as bearing the name Trapara?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember. I don't remember
2 that person.
3 MS. HASAN: Your Honour, I have three more names to go through.
4 I notice it's the break time but we can --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if the witness would limit his answer to what
6 is asked, then I think we could finish that part and you'll continue
7 after the break.
8 MS. HASAN:
9 Q. So if could you be brief. Branko Radan, was he there?
10 A. I don't know.
11 Q. Veljko Lubura.
12 A. I don't know.
13 Q. Dusan Skrba.
14 A. I don't know.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Could we turn into private session for a second.
16 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
17 JUDGE ORIE: If you are certain about the -- let's move into
18 private session for a second.
19 [Private session]
7 [Open session]
8 JUDGE ORIE: The usher could already prepare for the witness
9 to --
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We're in open session,
11 Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
13 We'll take a break. The witness will be escorted out of the
14 courtroom by the usher.
15 [The witness stands down]
16 JUDGE ORIE: And we'll resume at a quarter to 2.00.
17 --- Recess taken at 1.28 p.m.
18 --- On resuming at 1.48 p.m.
19 JUDGE ORIE: While we're waiting for the witness to be escorted
20 into the courtroom, I deal with the Defence request for leave to reply.
21 Such a request was filed on the 15th of May of this year. It was a
22 request for leave to file a reply to the Prosecution's response to the
23 Defence's Rule 92 ter motion pertaining to Witness GRM258.
24 The Chamber hereby grants the request.
25 [Prosecution counsel confer]
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps, meanwhile, I also deal with another
3 matter -- yes, the witness is there, so I'll refrain from continuing with
4 any other matter.
5 [The witness takes the stand]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan, you may proceed.
7 MS. HASAN:
8 Q. Mr. Batinic, I'd like you to take a look at the signature page
9 that you signed.
10 MS. HASAN: This is 65 ter 30799.
11 Q. Do you see it on your screen?
12 JUDGE ORIE: Nothing appears on our screens at this moment.
13 MS. HASAN:
14 Q. Well, let me just proceed and ask you: After --
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It's there now.
16 MS. HASAN: Could we see the second page, please.
17 Q. Witness, now, after you were -- when you were given your
18 statement that day and you carefully reviewed it, did you go through and
19 count the number of pages of the statement?
20 A. Yes, I've read -- I read it, and I counted the pages.
21 Q. And was it you who filled that in and wrote nine pages there.
22 That's your writing?
23 A. As for the number nine, I'm not sure.
24 Q. Okay.
25 MS. HASAN: Can we take a look at 65 ter 30798.
1 Q. Witness, this is what I think is the first statement, the
2 statement that you actually reviewed. I just want to flip through it and
3 ensure that, in fact, this is the one that you reviewed and signed off
5 MS. HASAN: If we could just turn to the second page.
6 Q. Witness, are you able to confirm that that was the statement that
7 you reviewed? If you need more time to look at it, I can get a hard copy
8 for you.
9 A. No need for that. It's the 2nd of May, 2014. 25 paragraphs. As
10 far as I can remember, I signed 27 paragraphs.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, the 27-paragraph statement is not nine
12 pages. It's six pages.
13 So this one is nine pages so -- Ms. Hasan, if I'm not mistaken.
14 MS. HASAN: That's correct.
15 JUDGE ORIE: So if you signed a nine page and if you verified
16 that, couldn't be the 27-paragraph statement because that's shorter.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have that statement,
18 unsigned, in my room, and I will gladly give it to you. It hasn't been
19 signed. It has 27 paragraphs, so I don't understand this.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Neither do I at this moment.
21 Madam Registrar, is there a possibility that the Victims and
22 Witness Section would accompany the witness to his hotel room after the
23 end of this court session and receive from him the statement he says he
24 has in his hotel room. And that's the copy he received when signing but
25 the extra copy that he took home and which he had at home and which he
1 used for further preparing his comments to be given in The Hague.
2 That is a request to that -- that the Victims and Witness Section
3 will accompany you. The parties cannot do that, Witness, because they're
4 not allowed to have contact with you once you have taken the stand.
5 Ms. Hasan.
6 MS. HASAN: Thank you. That will be very helpful.
7 Q. Now, Witness, when you met with Mr. Dundjer to review your
8 statement, you have already told us that you -- there were some
9 corrections you wanted to make. Now, did you inform Mr. Dundjer what
10 those corrections were at that time?
11 A. There were mistakes in terms of years, names, and I said: I
12 won't sign this. And then Dundjer said pressure coming from The Hague to
13 get this done. I will do all the corrections with Lukic, and I only --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you've told us that already three times.
15 Just focus on the question put to you by Ms. Hasan, whether you informed
16 Mr. Dundjer at the time what the changes were you wanted to make.
17 Apparently you did. It is about dates and names?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
19 MS. HASAN:
20 Q. And did you see Mr. Dundjer take notes of those corrections?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Now, did you, subsequent to your meeting with Mr. Dundjer, or
23 before that, meet with a Sasa Lukic to discuss the information you were
24 to provide in your statement?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Did you meet with someone by the name of Boris Zorko [Microphone
2 not activated].
3 A. Yes. But not last time. Before that. I don't know exactly
5 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan, there may be some ambiguity in your
6 question as far as timing is concerned.
7 Witness, did you ever meet or were you ever interviewed by a
8 person by the name of Sasa Lukic?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I think that was last year.
10 In eastern Sarajevo.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Hasan.
12 MS. HASAN:
13 Q. Okay. And just in regard to Boris Zorko, you said you met with
14 him very briefly. Did he interview you about your evidence?
15 A. Boris Zorko was with Sasa Lukic. Last year we were in contact in
16 eastern Sarajevo, sometime in the autumn.
17 Q. Now, you --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue there, were you then interviewed
19 by Zorko and Lukic?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Last year? No. Except in
21 March last year. That was the first meeting. Then I gave some
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Why did you then meet them or were you in
24 contact with him in autumn -- in the autumn of last year?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is when they came to eastern
1 Sarajevo in relation to witness-related questions. I gave them some
2 other contacts so that they could contact some other people in respect of
3 the Defence.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us whose names you then gave to them?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Vojislav Carkic, a priest.
6 JUDGE ORIE: And apart from him?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't recall any others. I don't
8 think I mentioned anyone else.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you said, "I gave them some other contacts so
10 they could contact some other people." You're not saying: I gave them
11 one other contact so that they could contact one other person. But you
12 were talking in the plural, and I'm asking you who else you mentioned.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct, Your Honour. I mentioned
14 Lieutenant-Colonel Sergei Fyodorov from Moscow. What kind of contacts
15 were established with this person and whether that actually happened, I
16 don't know. That's why I said that in the plural. This had to do with
17 eastern Sarajevo, and that's why I mentioned that.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now a minute ago you said: "I don't recall
19 any others." And when I insisted, you immediately came with another
20 person. Any explanation for not knowing any others and half a minute
21 later to come with another name?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely because I focussed on
23 eastern Sarajevo, Your Honour. And Priest Vojislav Carkic stayed on with
24 Lukic and they talked, and this person has many more contacts. I
25 remembered the other name when you mentioned the plural, then I
1 remembered Sergei. But he is not in eastern Sarajevo, he is in Moscow.
2 He is in Russia.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you would please focus on the question as
4 put to you instead of developing your own framework of thought when
5 answering questions. Just listen to the question and answer them.
6 Please proceed, Ms. Hasan.
7 MS. HASAN:
8 Q. Now, at this interview that Mr. Lukic, Sasa Lukic, and
9 Boris Zorko conducted, was Milenko Dundjer present?
10 A. I'm not sure whether Mr. Boris or Mr. Dundjer were there.
11 Q. If I understand your evidence correctly, you, on one occasion,
12 meet with Sasa Lukic who interviews you and, on another occasion,
13 Mr. Milenko Dundjer also interviews you. Do I have that right?
14 A. Let's deal with this chronologically then. March last year, I
15 met Lukic, Sasa, and Boris, in Belgrade. After that, last autumn, Sasa
16 came. I think he was on his own. And then this other time, there was
17 Zorko and Dundjer. Because I drove them from the bus station to the
18 hotel in eastern Sarajevo. The last contact was precisely
19 Milenko Dundjer. That's the document that we talked about. Dundjer was
20 on his own.
21 Q. Did you meet with any of these three individuals again in
22 April of 2013? So a month after your initial interview?
23 JUDGE ORIE: Would you make it two weeks, Ms. Hasan, I have
24 the 26th of March --
25 MS. HASAN: That's correct.
1 JUDGE ORIE: -- and the 8th of April.
2 MS. HASAN: That's correct.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can just confirm that the last
4 contact was with Milenko Dundjer when I signed this document, this
5 statement, actually.
6 JUDGE ORIE: You have not listened to the question.
7 You referred to your interview in March 2013. Now, on the front
8 page, it says that you were also interviewed on the 8th of April, 2013.
9 That's over a year ago. Who was there in this interview two weeks after
10 your March interview which you said took place in Belgrade?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just remember Belgrade, that
12 April -- actually, no, I don't remember 2013.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Were you interviewed twice in the beginning?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was interviewed in Belgrade. And
15 the next one was this statement, the one that I signed here with Dundjer.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan, perhaps you should take the witness back
17 to the front page of his -- which he signed.
18 Could we have a look at --
19 MS. HASAN: That was 65 ter 30799.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Could we have a look at that.
21 Witness, could you have a look with me, 26th of March, 2013,
22 8th of April, 2013, are recorded as you being interviewed.
23 About the first one, you told us that was in Belgrade.
24 The 8th of April, 2013, could you tell us where that interview
25 took place and who interviewed you?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I see here -- well, I just
2 know that one signature was on the 26th of March, 2013. I don't know
3 about these other dates. The last signed document is where the date is
4 the 14th -- no, the 10th of October, 2014 [as interpreted]. I don't know
5 about the rest, except for the first date.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I don't see any October. What I see at this
7 moment is an interview on the 26th of March, 2013, which you confirmed
8 had taken place in Belgrade.
9 You're telling us that you were not interviewed or you have no
10 recollection of being interviewed on the 8th of April of last year?
11 You're nodding no, so that is a negative answer.
12 Then the 14th and the 16th, or the 14th to the
13 16th of February of this year, were you then interviewed?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Now, what then remains is the date on which you
16 signed this document, which was either the 10th of April or perhaps even
17 the 10th of May.
18 Now, you said on the 26th you were interviewed by whom exactly?
19 By Sasa Lukic? I'm talking about March 2013, in Belgrade. Who were
20 present there?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sasa Lukic and Boris.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you were never interviewed by
23 Milenko Dundjer on any of these dates?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct, Your Honour. I had no
25 conversation with him, just the signing of this statement that had
1 already been printed out.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
3 Please proceed, Ms. Hasan.
4 MS. HASAN:
5 Q. And, Witness, just at line 14, page 84 of today's transcript, you
6 say that on the 26th of -- on the 26th of March, 2013, that's -- you say:
7 "I just know that I had -- one signature was on the
8 26th of March, 2013."
9 Did you sign a statement on that date?
10 A. I think I signed one. That was last year. I mean, I signed it.
11 If my signature is there, then I signed it.
12 Q. Do you have a copy of that statement?
13 A. I never got that copy, and I never took it either.
14 [Prosecution counsel confer]
15 MS. HASAN: Your Honours, I'd ask that the Defence provide us
16 with copy of the statement signed by the witness on that date so that we
17 can review it this evening.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
19 MR. LUKIC: I can tell that you no -- not a single statement was
20 signed at that time. I can vouch for that.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Has a statement been taken and put on paper on that
22 date, irrespective of whether it was signed or not?
23 MR. LUKIC: All I have -- and you know about the confusion. I
24 can check with the office. But even if it is, then it's a work product
25 and we did not get from the Prosecution those work products. But I will
2 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the line between what is work product and what
3 is a statement, and of course the Prosecution is under an obligation to
4 disclose any statement ever taken by a witness. And, Mr. Lukic, under
5 the present circumstances, there may be some concern about what is
6 statement and what is not.
7 Yes, please proceed, Ms. Hasan, for the next two minutes because
8 we have to adjourn timely today.
9 MS. HASAN:
10 Q. So, Witness, on the 10th of June, you met with Mr. Lukic to, as
11 you say, make some corrections to your statement, the statement you had
12 with you; is that right?
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This year, you mean.
14 MS. HASAN: Yes, this year.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan, the witness talked about Monday. Now
16 Monday was the 9th of June. I don't know whether --
17 MS. HASAN: That's correct.
18 Q. It's the 9th of June that you met with Mr. Lukic and I received a
19 note about the corrections on the 10th.
20 So, Witness, do you recall that on the 9th of June, meeting with
21 Mr. Lukic to discuss the corrections you made? You wanted to make?
22 A. Well, yes, that's what I've said, that's what Mr. Lukic did.
23 Q. Now, you said you reviewed a document which recorded those
24 corrections. The corrections made on that document, was -- were those
25 the entire corrections that you made to your statement?
1 A. Mr. Lukic corrected everything. However, this document was not
2 received here. I'm sorry, may I just add something? That is why
3 yesterday we opted for this other version in vivo. That is to say, that
4 document had been rejected.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You gave your corrections to Mr. Lukic. Now,
6 did he incorporate them in your original statement, or did he make a
7 separate document which contains the changes you had made?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Mr. Lukic made the
9 corrections. What happened further on, I don't know.
10 JUDGE ORIE: What I want to know, you said he immediately then
11 produced the corrected statement. Did he -- or if you didn't see it,
12 please tell us. Did he then have a separate document saying: This is a
13 change, this is a change, this is a change? Or did he produce your
14 original statement with the changes incorporated in that statement in its
15 entirety? Which of the two? If you know.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I think, Your Honour, that
17 Mr. Lukic will explain that better. He is the one who made the
19 JUDGE ORIE: Have you seen the document containing the
20 corrections? Because, if not --
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, he typed that up, these
23 JUDGE ORIE: Was that one page? Or was that, again, six,
24 seven pages?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was several pages. I sat on the
1 balcony smoking as he was working.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. We leave it to that. We'll adjourn for
3 the day.
4 Mr. Groome, we have to finish.
5 MR. GROOME: Just asking that the witness be given the standard
6 admonition about not to speak to other witnesses.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course I will. And now, first of all,
8 Witness, once you leave the courtroom, you will be accompanied by the
9 Victims and Witness Section to go to your hotel and to fetch whatever
10 statements you still have. At least provide them all but certainly the
11 one which was given to you on -- in Sarajevo when you signed a copy of
12 your statement.
13 Second, I would like to instruct you that you should not speak or
14 communicate in whatever way with whomever about your testimony, and this
15 is a very serious instruction, not by phone, not in any other way, do not
16 speak with anyone or communicate with anyone about your testimony,
17 whether given today or still to be given tomorrow or the coming days.
18 If that's clear, you may follow the usher.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I take
20 note of everything, and I do apologise if I was a bit emotional. All of
21 this is something new to me.
22 I wish you all a good day.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
24 [The witness stands down]
25 JUDGE ORIE: We adjourn for the day, and we'll resume tomorrow,
1 Friday, the 13th of June, 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, I.
2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.18 p.m.,
3 to be reconvened on Friday, the 13th day of June,
4 2014, at 9.30 a.m.