1 Friday, 4 July 2014
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is the case
8 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 We'll first conclude the evidence of this witness. Meanwhile, I
11 remind the parties that on the 23rd of June the Chamber has stated that
12 it wishes to be provided with a map containing various positions
13 mentioned by Witness Milos Skrba in particular the Gugina Kucar [phoen]
14 crossroads and a feature called number 8, Osmica, in order to better
15 understand the witness's testimony. And the Prosecution indicated that
16 it would further endeavour to get additional information, and the Chamber
17 wondered whether the Prosecution is in a position to provide the Chamber
18 with the map containing the necessary information.
19 MR. SHIN: Yes. Good morning, Your Honours.
20 We have located -- we do have the location for this Osmica. We
21 are not able to locate the other place yet. And if we could be given
22 until the end of today to respond to Your Honours, perhaps we could meet
23 with Mr. -- well, with the Defence counsel as well to see if they could
24 assist in that regard.
25 JUDGE ORIE: That request is granted.
1 [The witness takes the stand]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Tusevljak.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, I would like to remind you that
5 you are still bound by the solemn declaration you have given at the
6 beginning of your testimony.
7 WITNESS: SLOBODAN TUSEVLJAK [Resumed]
8 [Witness answered through interpreter]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Shin will now -- yes, and that is one. We also
10 do understand that you have brought the document we asked you to bring
11 with you.
12 Perhaps, Mr. Usher, could you already receive that document from
13 the witness so that the Chamber and the parties can have a look at it.
14 Meanwhile, Mr. Shin will continue his cross-examination.
15 Mr. Shin.
16 Cross-examination by Mr. Shin: [Continued]
17 Q. Good morning, Mr. Tusevljak.
18 A. Good morning, Mr. Prosecutor.
19 Q. Now, yesterday when we left off we were discussing the
20 60-millimetre mortars in your company, and we were dealing with
21 paragraph 13 in your Karadzic statement. And I'm going to read it to you
22 in its entirety since we have it only in English.
23 MR. SHIN: Could I please have the document assigned to D540
24 brought up on the screen. And if we could please turn to the second
1 Q. We'll wait until it's up. Actually, since it's going to be in
2 translation for you, Mr. Tusevljak, I'll just begin reading it.
3 "When the SRK was formed, my unit was named the 1st Platoon of
4 the 4th Company of the 2nd Battalion of the 1st Smbr, and we held the
5 same positions until the end of the war. We only had one mortar but no
6 mortar bombs."
7 Now, Mr. Tusevljak, the language of that paragraph, it's simple
8 and it's clear; correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. When I asked you further questions, you first stated that by the
11 word "we" you meant the company not the platoon, and you said "that's
12 another error" in your statement. Now, you said that was an error
13 because you knew that anyone reading this -- these two sentences would
14 naturally be confused and think that you were talking about your platoon.
15 That's why you said that's another error; correct?
16 A. Yes, they belong to the company, to the -- these two mortars.
17 That was part of the company. As a platoon, we didn't have any mortars.
18 The company command was above us, and behind the company HQ was that
19 mortar. It was set up higher. Actually, in a valley.
20 Q. Mr. Tusevljak, you said that this was another error in your
21 statement because you knew that somebody reading this would, of course,
22 think that you were talking about the platoon. That's my question to
23 you. That is why you said this was an error in your statement.
24 A. Yes. We, as a platoon, we didn't have -- I mean --
25 Q. [Overlapping speakers]
1 A. -- it's an error. Perhaps when I said "we," I meant the company.
2 Q. Yes. And then on further questioning, you agreed that the
3 company did not "only have one" mortar but that it had two. That's what
4 you said; correct? You remember that.
5 A. Yes, yes.
6 Q. And on even further questions you were even willing to say that
7 it was possibly three mortars; right?
8 A. Yes, it's possible. I said I didn't know. I know that one was
9 operational. As for the others, they were not used. Perhaps they were
10 not operating, something about the sights. I think that's what the crew
11 of the mortars told me.
12 Q. Mr. Tusevljak, please listen carefully to my question. Now your
13 statement said we only had one mortar, and already now you're willing to
14 admit the possibility of three; correct?
15 A. Yes. When I said "one," I meant the one that was in working
16 order. The others, one or two, they were not in working order. That's
17 what I meant.
18 Q. Then when I asked you about this phrase "no mortar bombs," you
19 told this Court that all you meant by that was that there were no mortar
20 shells on one day, the 8th of June, 1992, out of a four-year war - one
21 day you say your company had no mortar shells; is that correct?
22 A. Yes, on the 8th of June we didn't have any. They were needed.
23 We asked for mortar fire from that one, but they said they didn't have
24 any shells.
25 Q. And you would agree with me that in your Karadzic statement, as
1 we discussed yesterday, there is nothing to indicate the limitation of
2 that phrase "no mortar bombs" to just one day out of the entire war.
3 There is nothing in your statement that does that, is there?
4 A. I think so. That's how it was written. That's how it was
5 formulated. I know what I meant to say, but as for the way it was put,
6 it's not clear to me.
7 Q. Mr. Tusevljak, that's the way it was written and that's the way
8 you signed it. That's the way you signed that statement.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Now in light of the changes, when we look again at paragraph 13
11 of your Karadzic statement, isn't it clear that anyone reading that
12 paragraph would be misled in their understanding about the situation
13 regarding mortars in your company?
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection.
15 Your Honours, I think that this is the third time that one and
16 the same question is being repeated to which the witness already replied
17 yesterday and today.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Shin.
19 MR. SHIN: What was the witness's answer to that question?
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think that the problem is, Mr. Stojanovic,
21 that the witness is not properly answering the question. So, therefore,
22 then you can put it again to the witness.
23 Please proceed, Mr. Shin.
24 MR. SHIN:
25 Q. Mr. Tusevljak, do you need the question again?
1 A. No, no. I understand.
2 Q. So what's your answer? Anyone reading that would be misled about
3 the situation regarding mortars in your company. That's obvious;
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. So --
7 A. Yes, I think --
8 Q. -- knowing that someone reading that would be misled, you said
9 nothing. You said nothing when you signed this statement. You said
10 nothing during proofing, you said nothing here in Court until I started
11 asking you questions about this. In fact, on Wednesday when Defence
12 counsel asked you "does this" these statements, "fully correspond to what
13 you wish to say, what you did say, and what your recollection is," that
14 was another opportunity for you to correct this misleading impression
15 that your statement had left; isn't that correct? That was another
16 opportunity. Just tell me. It's correct that this was another
17 opportunity to do -- to make this correction?
18 A. Yes, yes, it's correct. But again, I'm not a lawyer. I didn't
19 really understand properly that that would mean something else other than
20 what I meant to talk about. That it can be interpreted differently.
21 Q. Mr. Tusevljak --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Shin, Mr. Shin.
23 MR. SHIN: Yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: That's [indiscernible].
25 MR. SHIN: Okay.
1 Q. Now yesterday, Mr. Tusevljak, before we finished you
2 acknowledged -- or before we finished, you said about the
3 8th of June 1992, you said:
4 "There were a few shells, most of them were incendiary but on the
5 8th we didn't have any. These were just used to light up the sky at
7 Now, Mr. Tusevljak, incendiary shells, they are used to set their
8 targets on fire. That's what they're for; correct?
9 A. Yes, incendiary ones. But I didn't know that they had incendiary
10 ones for mortars. They were illuminating ones which would light up the
11 area at night. I knew that some sort of action was being prepared so we
12 would observe what was going on, but on the evening of the 7th of June
13 they used three or four of those shells which are illuminating ones.
14 They don't have any other function.
15 Q. They also had regular shells, the kind that explode on impact?
16 A. Yes, I think there were a few of them up there at that command
17 before that. I think that there were some, but I don't know how many.
18 All I can remember is that on the 7th in the evening we were firing --
19 actually, they were firing the tracing ones so that we could observe
20 positions. You could hear the sound of trucks, preparations for the
21 attack, probably, so we asked for this area to be illuminated. We didn't
22 have any, actually. I asked for fire to be executed in front of our
23 positions. We didn't have any shells.
24 Q. You didn't know how many shells, so you can't really say that
25 they had very few shells. You've just told us that you didn't know.
1 A. When I was up there during those days, I think that there was a
2 box. Next to that there was another box with these tracer shells. I saw
3 that. I was talking with these guys and they said only that one was
4 functional and that was the only one that could fire, and that's why I
5 think that there wasn't a lot. It wasn't a depot. It was in the field,
6 it was covered with tent material, water proof material, but it's not up
7 to me. It's not my job to know how many of these things they had.
8 Probably on the 8th they didn't have any.
9 Q. We'll return to that issue of the mortar shells. Now let's just
10 go to the structure of your company. It's correct that there were four
11 infantry platoons; correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. There was also a scouts or a reconnaissance section; correct?
14 A. Well, it wasn't a special squad or something. It was a young man
15 who would go somewhere where it would be better -- there would be a
16 better position to observe the positions in front of us. There was no
17 particular surveillance or reconnaissance units. Somebody would get a
18 task to go, have a look, come back to the lines, so that they could at
19 least get a look at what was in front of us.
20 Q. Mr. Tusevljak --
21 A. There was no squad --
22 Q. -- maybe I --
23 A. -- as such. That's true.
24 Q. Please focus on my questions, and if I feel that you're going
25 astray, I may indicate that you're going beyond the scope of the
2 Now, apart from the 60-millimetre mortars, were there any other
3 mortars in the company?
4 A. I don't think so. I didn't see it. I know that this 60 was
5 close by, but I don't know about anything else.
6 Q. So during your four years with the company, as far as you know,
7 is your evidence that there was no other mortar apart from the
8 60-millimetre mortars in your company?
9 A. I don't think so. I think that behind the company quite a
10 distance away in the depth there was a mortar unit that also provided
11 support fire for us, and that's where they had five or six mortars. I
12 don't know what kind. But I know that they were deep in the depth of the
14 Q. Okay. I'm going to turn to a different topic now. In your
15 statement for this case in paragraph 2, you state:
16 "There was one sniper in my platoon and it was actually a sniper
17 that belonged to the battalion according to the establishment."
18 MR. SHIN: And it's not on this document, so we won't need it on
19 the screen. It's the other document, D539. But let's stay with this
20 document, because I will be returning to it, please.
21 Q. Mr. Tusevljak, in your Karadzic statement on paragraph 26 --
22 MR. SHIN: And that's E4 -- and that's page 4 on this document.
23 Q. -- you mention that at the end of 1993 a trained sniper was sent
24 to your unit.
25 Now, my first question to you is: Are we talking about the same
1 person or is this someone different? So in your Mladic statement you
2 mention that there was one sniper in your platoon; in your Karadzic
3 statement you mention that at the end of 1993 a sniper was sent to your
4 unit. The same person or different people?
5 A. It's the same person. It was that one and only person that came
6 then. It's the same person.
7 Q. What was this person's name?
8 A. Believe me when I say that I don't know. He was not part of our
9 company. He was sent either from the battalion or the brigade, and we
10 complained to the battalion commander that we couldn't work around in
11 that area because of the sniper from the other side, and then he sent
12 somebody to try to neutralise the other sniper.
13 Q. And, in fact, a sniper is an effective way to eliminate a sniper;
15 A. I think that a sniper would work against a sniper. Then it's
16 better to do it that way, for him to find him and neutralise him.
17 Q. Now, you've told this Court that --
18 MR. SHIN: And that's paragraph --
19 Q. Well, you've told this Court that there were 230 members of your
20 unit who were killed during the war, and you said that:
21 "They were killed in fighting. Most of them were killed in
22 sniper fire."
23 Now, you, as a platoon leader, you're responsible for the safety
24 of your men; correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. So given the scope and scale of what you say is a sniper fire
2 against you, it would be natural for you to ask for snipers to counter
3 that sniper fire; is that right?
4 A. Yes. In this case we asked about Asimovo Brdo, but there were
5 snipers from the town as well. They would fire at us all along the
6 street, at our company, directly. The sniper from Asimovo Brdo that was
7 opposite us, he was able to have an overview from the command to
8 Banjalucka Street, and that's why we asked for the command for a way to
9 deal with this.
10 Q. So, Mr. Tusevljak, is this the -- this time at the end of 1993
11 when a sniper was sent to you, was that the only time you asked for a
12 sniper or did you ask for a sniper on more occasions?
13 A. We asked for it before, a couple of times either a sniper or some
14 weapon. We knew more or less where the two houses were from where the
15 sniper was shooting from Asimovo Brdo, but they didn't have anybody to
16 send to us, so then later they sent this man.
17 Q. Now in your Karadzic statement at paragraph 26, the document that
18 we have on the screen, you say that after this sniper was killed by a
19 Muslim sniper:
20 "After this, no other snipers arrived."
21 And you've just explained that. You also say:
22 "I also know for a fact that the neighbouring platoons did not
23 have any snipers in their ranks."
24 First of all, by "neighboring platoons" you're talking about the
25 other three platoons in your company; correct?
1 A. Yes, they were to the left and to the right of me.
2 Q. So is your testimony, then, that there were no snipers at all in
3 your company?
4 A. That's right. There were none. Had there been any, then they
5 wouldn't have needed to send somebody from the brigade or the battalion.
6 I don't know where he came from. But in any event, he was sent by the
7 battalion command.
8 Q. Let me put a slightly different question to you. Isn't it true
9 that soldiers in your company used sniper rifles?
10 A. Perhaps in the company, yes, but these were these old snipers.
11 We had one at the company command. Somebody could take the sniper rifle
12 and use it if they needed it. We couldn't use it because we were so
13 close by and nobody could be effective against such a precise sniper who
14 fired at Ozrenska and at us. He was a good sniper shooter and nobody
15 could deal with that, so we practically didn't use the sniper rifle.
16 Q. So your evidence is that there was only one sniper rifle in your
17 company. Is that what you're saying?
18 A. I think that there was one. I saw one at the command. I didn't
19 read there if there were any more, but I think I only saw that one at the
20 command of the company in the racks.
21 Q. Okay. We're now going to go look at some documents, and these
22 documents pertain to weapons in your company.
23 MR. SHIN: Could I please have 65 ter 30867.
24 Q. Now, Mr. Tusevljak, while we're waiting for this to come up on
25 this -- on the screen, let me explain to you what it is. It's a document
1 from the 2nd Battalion, 4th Company - your company - and it's dated the
2 22nd of October, 1993. We see that in the upper left-hand corner now.
3 And we also see the location Ozrenska. That would be Ozrenska Street;
5 A. Yes, Ozrenska Street.
6 Q. And at the bottom --
7 MR. SHIN: It's the second page in the English.
8 Q. -- you see that it's signed by Mr. Major Dragutin Loncaric.
9 We've already discussed who he is. Now you see a reference to the
10 Zbrojevka Brno rifle -- or weapon. We've discussed that yesterday.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Could we go back to the first page.
12 MR. SHIN: Yes, I'm sorry, the first page in English.
13 Q. And that's the fourth item there. A little further down we see
14 references to two M-84s, we talked about that. You told us about an
15 effective range if you had an optical sight for that. And by the way,
16 that weapon was also referred to as the sower of death, right,
17 "sejac smrti"?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And likewise we find references to M-48s, a weapon we discussed
20 yesterday. Now starting at line 6 -- so going back near the top of this,
21 just before -- just under the letter PAN, we see the entry MB-60 mm; that
22 is a 60-millimetre mortar. And we see that appearing three times. So
23 that means there are three 60-millimetre mortars; correct? Are we clear
24 on that now?
25 A. Yes, I see it. I see it.
1 Q. And we also see just below that MB-82 mm. That is an
2 82-millimetre mortar; correct?
3 A. Yes, that is what it says.
4 Q. So, in fact, the company had an additional mortar and it was an
5 82-millimetre mortar; correct?
6 A. I have never seen it. I saw the one I mentioned already.
7 Perhaps it was not in operation at the time. And the other two, I've
8 never seen them. It was somewhere further away. I am not aware of the
9 82-millimetre piece ever engaging anything, too. I don't even know
10 whether it was there at all. Perhaps it's just on the list. I'm not
11 familiar with it.
12 Q. Mr. Tusevljak, we'll see some other documents pertaining to that.
13 But your evidence right now is that during your four years you had no
14 knowledge that an 82-millimetre mortar was ever engaged; is that correct?
15 A. Yes. I don't think I saw it at all.
16 Q. We also see further down a reference to -- and I think it's
17 the -- or it's the bottom of the page in B/C/S.
18 MR. SHIN: I believe it's the second page in English.
19 Q. We see a reference to two Osa. Yes, there it is. Now, an Osa
20 that's a portable rocket launcher, multi-use; correct?
21 A. Yes, Osa is portable but it has a single tube. It has one rocket
22 that can be used to engage tanks, for example.
23 Q. And we also see at the bottom --
24 MR. SHIN: And back on page 1 in the English.
25 Q. -- that there are two weapons listed as broving, and those are
1 browning machine-guns of different calibres; correct?
2 A. Yes, correct.
3 MR. SHIN: Your Honours, the Prosecution would tender 30867.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Document 30867 receives number P6624,
6 Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: P6624 is admitted.
8 MR. SHIN: Now, can I please have 65 ter 30868 brought up on the
10 Q. Now, Mr. Tusevljak, while we're waiting for that to come up, I'll
11 explain what it is. It's a document from the 4th Infantry Company,
12 2nd Battalion. Again, the location is Ozrenska we see on the upper left,
13 and it's dated the 3rd of December, 1993. Now we see that it's signed by
14 Lieutenant Dusan Zurovac for the commander. We've heard about him
15 already. He's a supply officer at the 4th Company's command.
16 Now, we see that he's requesting various ammunition, including
17 one crate of 60-millimetre shells and two crates of 82-millimetre shells.
18 That would suggest that the 82-millimetre mortar was used; correct?
19 A. I said I don't know. I only know about the 60-millimetre pieces.
20 I'm not aware of the whereabouts of the 82-millimetre piece. I guess it
21 was there, but we were further down. I've no clue. I never asked for
22 anything of the sort. I didn't even know there was one. I only knew of
23 the 60-millimetre piece. I'm not aware of this one. Maybe it was lent.
24 The pieces were carried around all the time. I really don't know.
25 MR. SHIN: Your Honours, the Prosecution would tender 30868.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
2 MR. SHIN: Now, I'd like -- I'm sorry.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Document 30868 receives number P6625,
4 Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: P6625 is admitted.
6 MR. SHIN: Now, I'd like to continue on with another document.
7 But before doing that, if Your Honours would permit, I would like to pass
8 out a hard copy of what is currently D545 because I would like the
9 witness to compare that with what's going to be on the screen in B/C/S
10 and in English.
11 JUDGE ORIE: No objections I take, Mr. Stojanovic. We --
12 MR. SHIN: We have copies available, of course, for -- the
13 Defence can find it on the screen. But we have hard copies available for
14 the Defence and for Your Honours when we go through this process.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed as you suggested, Mr. Shin.
16 MR. SHIN: Thank you, Mr. President.
17 Now could we please have on the screen 65 ter 30865. And we'll
18 take a moment and just wait for that document to come up.
19 Q. Now, Mr. Tusevljak, if we look at the document on the screen, if
20 you look on the left you see that it's a handwritten document. And I'm
21 going to go to some specific pages first before we consider this document
22 as a whole.
23 MR. SHIN: Can we first go to page in the English 4 and the
24 B/C/S 4.
25 Q. Now, Mr. Tusevljak, do you see on the left-hand side of that page
1 in B/C/S the quote -- let me try that again: "
2 1st Platoon leave request for 30 May, 1992, Milivoje and
3 Miroslav Cavarkapa." Now that refers to the Cabarkapas that we saw on
4 the list for the 1st Platoon, and that's a document that you have right
5 in front of you; correct?
6 A. Yes, correct.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Where do we see the -- only if you request. It is
8 under 29th of May, the second half of the left part of the page and then
9 a couple of lines down. Yes, I see.
10 MR. SHIN: Yes, I am sorry.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, well, we found it.
12 MR. SHIN: Okay. We'll try to give greater clearance on where
13 the passages are that are referred to.
14 Now can we go to page 9 in both languages.
15 Q. Now in the B/C/S on the left, Mr. Witness, do you see where it
16 says Miso Vasic?
17 MR. SHIN: And that's around the middle of the page in English.
18 Q. Have you found that? It's around the fourth line from the top,
19 Mr. Tusevljak.
20 A. One moment. Yes, Miso Vasic. Found him.
21 Q. And it's signed Mile Vasic; correct?
22 A. Mile. Yes, Mile.
23 Q. Now, if you look at the document in your hand, if you look -- oh.
24 MR. SHIN: If I could have a moment please, Your Honour. We're
25 just checking what language the witness has in front of him.
1 Q. Mr. Tusevljak, if you're looking at a document that has some
2 English on it, you'll find that on the second page you have in the
3 original language in the -- in the B/C/S. Yes.
4 MR. SHIN: And my thanks to Ms. Stewart for pointing this out.
5 Q. Now, if you look at line number -- line number 6, that's
6 Mile Vasic. If you could take a look at the serial number of his
7 automatic weapon, that matches what we see on the screen in front of us;
8 correct? 316912 [Realtime transcript read in error" 3196912"]. That's
9 the unique identifying number of his weapon.
10 A. Yes, that's right.
11 Q. And let's go to one more.
12 MR. SHIN: Let's go to page 12 in both the English and the B/C/S.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Shin, could you please check if the number on
14 line 25, page 17, is correct.
15 MR. SHIN: Thank you for pointing that out, Your Honour. I spoke
16 too fast again. So let me say it slowly. It's 316912.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
18 MR. SHIN: And, of course, that's the number we see in the
19 document; that is, D545.
20 Q. Now, Mr. Tusevljak, on the screen you have -- on your right do
21 you see the name Dragomir Gornja and the letters and numbers AP469022.
22 Which is written over the crossed out number 666792.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Shin, does the number start with AP or does it
24 start with PAP?
25 MR. SHIN: Yes. The number -- the letters just before the number
1 that's crossed out do start with PAP. Thank you for correcting that,
2 Your Honour.
3 Q. Now, Mr. Tusevljak, if you look at the document in front of you,
4 you see number 26, the name Dragutin Gornja, and you see handwritten
5 here - so in handwriting, not typed - the letters and numbers AP 469022.
6 Now, despite the difference in the spelling of the first name, we're
7 talking about the same person; correct?
8 A. Yes, correct.
9 Q. I would now turn to a couple references in this document that you
10 may be more familiar with.
11 MR. SHIN: Let's turn to page 20 in both languages, please.
12 Q. And just above -- and on the right side, if we could just --
13 MR. SHIN: Thank you.
14 Q. Just on the right side of that in the B/C/S, just above where it
15 says 8th of August 1992 --
16 MR. SHIN: If I could just have one moment, Your Honours. In
17 English it's in the right column at the very top.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But I find the 5th of August, 1992.
19 MR. SHIN: Yes, you're correct, Your Honours. It's 5th of
20 August. My mistake.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We should have the B/C/S version, the right side
22 of the -- this handwritten page fully on the screen. Thank you.
23 MR. SHIN: Oh, I'm sorry. I -- maybe I should have been more
24 clear. In the English I'm looking in the middle of the right-hand column
25 in the line that begins "1st Platoon ..." So, in fact, the date is the
1 8th of August in the next line below.
2 Q. Have you found that, Mr. Tusevljak? The whole line reads -- yes?
3 A. Yes, I found it.
4 Q. "1st Platoon, 5 hand-grenades, Slobo Tusevljak." That's you;
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Mr. Tusevljak, there are more references we can go through, but
8 let me just ask you: This is a notebook of supplies and of
9 administrative matters relating to the 4th Company; correct?
10 A. Yes, correct. I think so.
11 Q. Are we right that it's a notebook of the company supplies
13 A. Yes, I think it is his. He kept record of it.
14 Q. Do you recognise his handwriting?
15 A. No. There were different company officers and I don't know who
16 was in that position at the time. It must be somewhere in the book.
17 Q. And one of the company supply officers was Dusan Zurovac;
19 A. Correct, sir.
20 MR. SHIN: Your Honours, the Prosecution would tender 30865.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Document 30865 receives number P6626,
23 Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: P6626 is admitted.
25 MR. SHIN:
1 Q. Now, Mr. Tusevljak, we're going to go to a few other places in
2 this -- in this notebook.
3 MR. SHIN: Could we please have page 4 in both the English and
4 the B/C/S. And I'll wait until it's brought up on the screen. In the
5 English I'll be going to the right-hand column at the top. Now, in the
6 B/C/S it will also be in the right-hand -- at the top.
7 Q. Mr. Tusevljak, it's -- here, you see at the top it says
8 "1st Platoon, one case shells for M-60 mortar," and there is a signature.
9 Do you recognise that signature? That says Kapuran, doesn't it?
11 A. Yes, probably. Yes.
12 Q. So --
13 A. I see it now.
14 Q. -- that would be the commander of the 1st Platoon who preceded
16 A. Precisely, sir.
17 Q. And we see that this appears just above the date 30 May, 1992.
18 And if we look on the left side of this page in both languages, we see
19 that the preceding entry - and therefore the relevant entry - is the
20 29th of May, 1992.
21 MR. SHIN: Now could we please -- and that's in the middle of
22 both pages. If we could please turn to page 7 in both the English and
23 the B/C/S. I will be looking in the English on the left-hand side and in
24 the B/C/S -- I'm sorry, it's page -- I'm sorry, it's page 8. If I said 7
25 that was my error. And in the English we'll be looking at the left-hand
1 column. I believe in the B/C/S it may be the right-hand column. Okay,
2 I'm --
3 JUDGE ORIE: We had it on our screen a minute ago, I think --
4 MR. SHIN: No, I'm -- I have to correct myself again. It is
5 page 7, my mistake. Yes. This is the correct page.
6 JUDGE ORIE: We had this on our screen a minute ago.
7 MR. SHIN: Yes. No, I'm sorry --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
9 MR. SHIN: I made two errors to get myself back to the correct
11 Q. Do you see, Mr. Tusevljak, the line that says: "Mortar Section,
12 two cases, shells for an 82-millimetre mortar, received by Lj. Bozic"?
13 A. Yes.
14 MR. SHIN: And if we could now go to the next page.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Shin, is there any relevance in looking at what
16 appears above there for the 1st Platoon?
17 MR. SHIN: Yes, and we might as well just do that now, then.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 MR. SHIN:
20 Q. Above that we see for the 1st Platoon, Mr. Tusevljak, 15 rifle
21 grenades, 150 bullets for a 7.9-millimetre sniper rifle. This is under
22 the entry for June 1992. That indicates -- that entry itself, that
23 indicates that there was a sniper rifle in the 1st Platoon; doesn't it?
24 A. Yes. At the beginning there was one. But as I said, when I
25 assumed the duty, it was at the company command in a house about 200
1 metres away from our platoon's positions. I think I even referred to it
2 somewhere in the statement. I didn't say we had one sniper rifle, which
3 we could make use of, but it was always up there.
4 Q. I don't think that was your evidence, but we'll continue now.
5 And we'll just go through a couple more of these because the Judges have
6 this document now and there are other issues that can be examined.
7 MR. SHIN: Let's turn to page 9 in both the English and the
8 B/C/S. And it's on the right-hand side, I believe, of both languages at
9 the top.
10 Q. We see the entry "Scouts." And there we see there are 100,
11 7.9 millimetre bullets for a sniper rifle. And you say something about
12 just the beginning.
13 MR. SHIN: I will go to one final entry, at page English and
14 B/C/S 65. And it's on the right-hand side of this document.
15 Q. At the very top, we see 12th of March, 1995 -- I'll wait until it
16 comes up, page 65. At the top we see Ilija Latkovic issued a sniper
17 rifle ..." And we will have other evidence on who specifically
18 Mr. Latkovic was.
19 MR. SHIN: I would like to turn to another document, please.
20 Could I please have document 65 ter 30864.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Shin, wouldn't it be fair to alert the witness
22 that we jumped three years ahead.
23 MR. SHIN: Yes, I believe I had read the date out. But I --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but we --
25 MR. SHIN: But I was seeking, in fact, a contrast, the beginning
1 and the end. That was the intent of my question, if that was not clear.
2 My apologies.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The page we are looking at now is 1995,
4 Witness, whereas the previous pages were from spring 1992.
5 MR. SHIN: That's correct. So I guess -- the -- the contrast now
6 is quite clear. If I could please have 65 -- yes, we have that now. And
7 I would ask to go to English page 5 and B/C/S page 4. Yes.
8 Q. Now we see that this is a document from the 2nd
9 Infantry Battalion, 4th Company. Again, Ozrenska. The date is the
10 15th of January, 1994. The document - we needn't go to the signature
11 page - it's signed by Dusan Zurovac.
12 MR. SHIN: Now if we could go not next page in English and stay
13 on this page in B/C/S.
14 Q. Witness, you can see number 25. It says Rajko Curo. And we see
15 the word "sniper" appearing twice. The second time the phrase is "sniper
16 Tandzara." Do you see that?
17 A. Yes, I see it.
18 Q. Now, the Tandzara, which we discussed yesterday, that has an
19 effective range of over 1000 metres with a scope; correct?
20 A. Yes, I think so.
21 MR. SHIN: And if we turn now to the next page in the B/C/S and
22 stay on this page in English and number 39.
23 Q. We see a reference to "sniper."
24 MR. SHIN: And one more. If we could turn to English page 8 and
25 B/C/S page 6. And now we're going to look at number 83.
1 Q. Under the -- after the name Savic, Blagoje, we see this phrase,
2 "... sniper, M-48 with optical sight." Mr. Tusevljak, this does show
3 that there were snipers in your company or individuals using sniper
4 weapons; correct?
5 A. I see it in the documents but I wasn't aware of it. This
6 documentation dates back to April and May 1992. At the time the war
7 hadn't even gun yet. I don't know what people purchased up there or had
8 at Ozrenska. I know that this guy, for example, was some kind of company
9 commander so perhaps he had to make a list. But later on when I became
10 commander of the 2nd Platoon, these were no longer used. I didn't have
11 it. The one we did was up with the company. I never saw anyone coming
12 to my positions with the -- a sniper rifle. Indeed, there was no need
13 for it. However, this was at the very beginning. That's how I see this
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Shin.
16 MR. SHIN: Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Was there any reason why we did not look at 89 - and
18 that's my first question. And the second question is whether you could
19 take the witness and the Chamber --
20 MR. SHIN: Yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: -- back to the date of this document.
22 MR. SHIN: Yes. If we -- for the date, if we could turn to
23 English 5 and B/C/S 4.
24 Q. And to be fair to you, Mr. Tusevljak, perhaps we went quickly
25 past this, but I think the date is clearer there. And it is for
1 January 15th, 1994.
2 MR. SHIN: And, yes, Your Honours, there are -- there will be
3 other information that's relevant in all these documents, but in the
4 interest of time I have cut short some of those parts.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 MR. SHIN:
7 Q. So you see the date, Mr. Tusevljak?
8 A. Yes, yes, I see it now. But a moment ago I saw a document dated
9 back in April or May where there was some reference to a sniper. But,
10 for example, this document, Cero Rajko [phoen]. I knew him. He lives in
11 Ozrenska Street. I think he was killed on that date or by that date. I
12 don't know how come he's in this document. I think he was killed. I
13 don't know.
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic.
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Given the last response by the
17 witness to the effect that Rajko, Cero, was killed, I think it would be
18 only fair to the witness to show him the title of this document to see
19 what is asked for in the document.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, you could have done so in
21 re-examination if you wished to do. You can object against questions.
22 The Chamber may give guidance to parties, how to proceed while
23 questioning. But you could have left this until re-examination.
24 Please proceed.
25 Although I must add to that that sometimes in obvious situations
1 it may sometimes be appreciated if there is any assistance. I do not
2 know whether this is such an occasion. I leave that in Mr. Shin's hands.
3 Please proceed.
4 MR. SHIN: Certainly.
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honour.
6 Just one sentence. The questions were in the context of the fact of --
7 if the unit had snipers at this particular date, but the heading of the
8 document perhaps could provide an answer. That's why I spoke out.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, do you understand English? Do you
10 understand English?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not really.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Could you take your earphones off for a second.
13 Mr. Stojanovic, you are entering into a debate on what, as we see
14 in English, "claimed weapons" means. Now, if I claim a weapon and I have
15 already the numbers of the weapons there, there are two ways of
16 understanding "claimed weapons," those that were claimed and received and
17 those that are still claimed and have not yet been received.
18 Now please explain to me why you have already the serial numbers
19 of the weapons you have not yet received. That is a discussion which can
20 take place but not as an intervention in the examination by Mr. Shin.
21 I hope that before you do it again, you think it over twice.
22 MR. SHIN: And just on that - and I don't wish to engage into an
23 argument - but the document itself indicates what the status of some of
24 these individuals are, and I'll leave it at that.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Apart from that, sometimes handwriting adds to
1 the information which suggests that it's updated regularly and --
2 MR. SHIN: That's correct, Mr. President.
3 JUDGE ORIE: And therefore for three or four reasons,
4 Mr. Stojanovic, it would have been better to think it over twice before
5 you intervened. And I again repeat that sometimes in obvious cases, and
6 apparently this is not such an obvious case, that it can be appreciated
7 but be very careful with that.
8 Mr. Shin, you may proceed after the witness has put on his
9 earphones again.
10 Svedok, Witness. The witness even doesn't understand my B/C/S.
11 That is problematic.
12 Please proceed.
13 MR. SHIN: Yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but if I say please proceed, Mr. Shin, I'm also
15 looking at the time.
16 MR. SHIN: I would need five minutes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Five minutes. Then I would suggest that we continue
18 for five minutes, take the break, and that the witness would be
19 re-examined after the break.
20 MR. SHIN: Could I tender this document, please. This is
21 65 ter 30864.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Document 30864 receives number P6627,
24 Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: P6627 is admitted.
1 MR. SHIN: I would like to turn to a -- 65 ter 30869.
2 Q. Now, Mr. Tusevljak, you've explained yesterday that you only know
3 about the sniping incident called F4 from what certain lawyers have told
4 you. But you also say that you know this area, and so I want to ask you
5 something that you were shown in your Karadzic testimony. Now, you were
6 shown this photo taken from the Ozrenska Street to a particular location.
7 And when you were testifying in Karadzic, you were asked whether this
8 shows a line of sight, and you acknowledged that it did. You stand by
9 that testimony; correct?
10 A. Yes, sir.
11 MR. SHIN: Your Honours, the Prosecution would tender 30869.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Document 30869 receives number P6628,
14 Your Honours.
15 MR. SHIN: And this --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Well --
17 MR. SHIN: -- photograph is a photograph taken from
18 Ozrenska Street towards the location of the incident, sniping incident
19 F4. We'll be looking at a zoomed-in picture next.
20 JUDGE ORIE: That was exactly what was missing when you tendered
22 MR. SHIN: Yes, I --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Because line of sight, line of sight by the millions
24 in this worlds, Mr. Shin.
25 MR. SHIN: Yes, my apologies. I'm hurrying a little which is not
2 JUDGE ORIE: No, no.
3 Witness, do you confirm that this is a picture from
4 Ozrenska Street to the place where incident F4 happened?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, sir. I see the place, but
6 this is all the way to the right from my positions. I was all the way to
7 the left. From this part you could see it. Ozrenska is down there and
8 the positions are right down there, and this is up there on some hill or
9 something. But you can see it.
10 JUDGE ORIE: But this was under the control of your armed forces,
11 wasn't it?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not quite sure whether this
13 place was held by our company or the neighboring company. But, yes, all
14 the way down to Grbavica. I'm not sure which company.
15 JUDGE ORIE: That's the reason why I used the expression "armed
17 One second please, Mr. Shin.
18 P6628 is admitted into evidence.
19 Please proceed.
20 MR. SHIN: And one final document. If we could please have
21 65 ter 30870.
22 Q. It's a zoom -- it's a zoomed-in photograph version of this
23 photograph, which you've also seen before, Mr. Tusevljak. And you
24 recognise that as a zoomed-in picture from the previous one; correct?
25 You were shown both in the Karadzic case.
1 A. Yes, sir.
2 MR. SHIN: Your Honours, the Prosecution would tender 30870.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Document 30870 receives number P6629,
5 Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: P6629 is admitted.
7 MR. SHIN:
8 Q. And a final question for you, Mr. Tusevljak. You were explaining
9 to the Judges that this was not held by your company. Now, in the
10 Karadzic case you believed that the position from where this
11 photograph -- these photographs were taken was held by the 2nd Company,
12 not by your platoon. Do you stand by that testimony in the Karadzic
14 A. Yes, sir. My platoon was all the way to the left, far away.
15 This is either at the very end of the AOR of my company and the beginning
16 of the AOR of the next company. I'm not quite sure because the
17 photograph is quite focused. But our platoon's area of responsibility
18 was all the way to Asimovo Brdo, so I didn't really see much of this. I
19 couldn't see this place at all. We were lower down. There were the
20 buildings, the taxi --
21 Q. [Overlapping speakers]
22 A. -- driver's hole, so it wasn't possible to see this place from
23 where we were.
24 MR. SHIN: No further questions, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Shin.
1 We will take a break and the witness will be escorted out of the
3 However, Mr. Stojanovic, the revised B/C/S and English versions
4 of the statement that were uploaded, and I'm talking about D498 --
5 [The witness stands down]
6 JUDGE ORIE: -- they were uploaded separately and without 65 ter
7 numbers. Now, if you want the current document to be replaced by it,
8 Madam Registrar would need a revised version properly uploaded with the
9 original and translation uploaded and connected under one 65 ter number.
10 That's what needs to be done in order to achieve what you wish to
12 We take a break and will resume at 11.00.
13 --- Recess taken at 10.40 a.m.
14 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Shin.
16 MR. SHIN: Yes, Mr. President, while we're waiting perhaps I
17 could just address the Osmica issue and indicate where we believe it is
18 and perhaps we could hear more from the Defence on where it may be.
19 JUDGE ORIE: If you do that already among yourself and then if
20 you agree that we receive your shared opinion about it, and if there is
21 any disagreement then, of course, the Chamber --
22 MR. SHIN: Okay.
23 JUDGE ORIE: -- would hear where you think it is --
24 MR. SHIN: Yes.
25 JUDGE ORIE: -- and where Mr. Stojanovic thinks it is.
1 MR. SHIN: Of course, Mr. President.
2 [The witness takes the stand]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tusevljak, you will now be re-examined by
4 Mr. Stojanovic.
5 Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
7 Re-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
8 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Tusevljak, when you spoke with this Defence
9 during proofing for your testimony, did you also talk about the fact that
10 your platoon did have a sniper which was from the battalion?
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we now look at
13 document D539, please. Could we look at paragraph 2 of this document,
15 Q. It is written here that you said:
16 "In my platoon, there was one sniper and that was the sniper that
17 belonged to the battalion by establishment."
18 Is that what you said when asked by Mr. Shin that you told us?
19 A. Yes, yes. I did say that that was in the statement.
20 Q. All right. Thank you. And can you explain to the Trial Chamber
21 what does it mean "belonged to the battalion by establishment" and not to
22 your platoon?
23 A. That means that that sniper was not issued to anyone. It was
24 recorded as its sniper. The battalion commander issued a sniper rifle so
25 that we could use it. We were not issued one in our platoon and that is
1 why it was recorded and at the company command.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at document
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, have I misunderstood something?
6 Isn't it that Mr. Shin mainly focused on the presence of snipers in the
7 company and that asking questions about a platoon or battalion doesn't
8 resolve that that much? Because battalion is not company, is it?
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I agree, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: So --
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And I just wanted to complete
12 these questions regarding his platoon and the possession of sniper rifles
13 pursuant to his own statement.
14 Q. Well, this is what I wanted to ask you, Witness. This is a list
15 of weaponry of the 1st Platoon of the 4th Company. And you had the
16 opportunity to see this list. Could you please tell me: Are you able to
17 answer according to your best recollection when -- what is the period of
18 this list?
19 A. Sir, I think this is a list from 1993, late 1993. I'm not here
20 so that means that I probably moved to the other platoon. Or it could be
21 1994. I cannot remember exactly. This is after I moved. I'm not on the
23 Q. Thank you. And then when you see this, and based on what you
24 know about weapons, could any of these weapons in the 1st Platoon of the
25 4th Company be described as a sniper rifle?
1 A. No, I don't think so, because these two rifles, M-48s, we used
2 them. They were modified. The mouth of the barrel was modified. There
3 was a kind of a shape made so that you could use it to fire bombs. The
4 PM machine-guns, they didn't have any optical sights -- actually, they
5 did but it was in a case at the command. We didn't really need that.
6 Q. When you say they were not needed because of the distance, what
7 do you mean?
8 A. Well, I am thinking of the enemy lines in front of us. They were
9 so close that we didn't need to use any optical sights. It was very
10 close and the machine-guns were placed between houses where there was a
11 clearing, so they were at those locations. We couldn't see the town
12 away, farther away from us because there were these houses that were
13 right there in front of us.
14 Q. I am going to end with questions relating to those two
15 photographs. Do you recognise the position or that place and those
16 houses where that photograph was taken which you said was part of
17 Ozrenska Street?
18 A. No, I don't recognise the houses. But just based on my
19 recollection, it's possible that quite a distance to the right of us,
20 that's where it was. You could see some street. This is possible that
21 it's from some section of Ozrenska Street to the right, but I don't know
22 it for a fact. I don't recognise the houses because that was far away
23 from where I was.
24 Q. And did you personally have any information that the platoon or
25 company that was right next to you were using sniper rifles?
1 A. No, sir. I didn't go there. We had enough problems in our own
2 platoon so that we never went to those other positions. I didn't know
3 anything about that. I didn't know anything about whether there were any
4 snipers or sharpshooters there.
5 Q. Now that after the examination-in-chief and the cross-examination
6 you pointed to the possible interpretations and factographical mistakes,
7 do you stand by what you said in these two statements in their entirety?
8 A. Of course I do. I stand by everything I said according to my
9 recollection except for those amendments or changes that were probably
11 Q. Thank you.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And, Your Honours, I'm going to
13 finish with the following suggestion because I was notified that the
14 redacted version of document which is MFI D540 has now been uploaded into
15 e-court with the remark that the document that was redacted has the
16 65 ter marking 1D02065A. And can we please ask for the documents to be
17 entered into e-court as Exhibit D540?
18 Q. Witness, sir, thank you very much.
19 A. Thank you.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Could we have a look at it first.
21 MR. SHIN: Yes, of course. I was simply going to ask if we could
22 look at it first.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Could we go through the pages one by one. We don't
24 have to look, only if we arrive at a page where we find -- and I think
25 it's paragraph 25. If we arrive at the page where the -- we expect
1 the -- yes. Next page, please. There we are. Let's have a look. Yes.
2 The reference to further elaboration on F10 is skipped. Here is
4 Last page, please. Yes.
5 Madam Registrar -- and let's just check.
6 What you showed to us is 1D02065A.
7 Madam Registrar, you may replace the document which is at present
8 under MFI D540 by the one just shown to, that's 1D02065A.
9 Do we have a translation yet with the redaction? Or I should ask
10 for the original, as a matter of fact, because -- yes, the English
11 version is signed. Has the original been redacted as well,
12 Mr. Stojanovic? If not, I think if we clearly put on the record that the
13 redacted portion in the English language is not in evidence and therefore
14 we can ignore whatever remains in the B/C/S version.
15 Under those circumstances, Madam Registrar, you may replace the
16 English version by the new one.
17 And D540 is admitted into evidence.
18 Any further questions, Mr. Shin?
19 MR. SHIN: No further questions. Just one matter. We have the
20 witness's original --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Has it been shown to the Defence? As a matter
22 of fact, I have instructed that it be shown to the parties. I take it
23 that you have inspected the original.
24 MR. SHIN: Yes, we've looked at it and we don't have any
25 questions arising from it.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Stojanovic?
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may just ask:
3 I didn't receive the translation of the last couple of words, so I
4 couldn't really follow what Mr. Shin said.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Shin wondered what to do with the document that
6 was handed over by the witness, and he also explained to us that he has
7 no further question in relation to this. I then said that I had given
8 the instruction to show it to both parties for inspection. The Chamber
9 has no further questions on it. Do you have any further questions in
10 relation to that?
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Then, please, with the assistance of the usher, give
13 it back to the witness.
14 Mr. Usher, could you please assist.
15 Mr. Tusevljak, the Chamber appreciated very much that you have
16 brought the document. It's returned to you now. This also concludes
17 your evidence in this court. I would like to thank you very much for
18 having come to The Hague and for having answered all the questions that
19 were put to you, questions put to you by the parties and by the Bench,
20 and I wish you a safe return home again.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
22 [The witness withdrew]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Before I invite the Defence to call its next
24 witness, I would like to deal with a few procedural matters. One of them
25 I dealt with already, that was the statement of Mr. Lalovic, D498. Has
1 the document been uploaded in [indiscernible] yet or not yet? I said
2 something about it before the break.
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. And I
4 received information that it has been uploaded, this number for the
5 statement of this witness.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but I gave some comments on the way in which it
7 was uploaded. Has this been corrected, Mr. Stojanovic? Because it was
8 uploaded separately without 65 ter numbers where it should be jointly
9 uploaded with a 65 ter number?
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
12 THE REGISTRAR: I confirm that I --
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I received it.
14 THE REGISTRAR: And it's been uploaded at the same 65 ter number
15 with the additional suffix a.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 THE REGISTRAR: So it's uploaded as 1D01650A, 65 ter number.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, you may replace the newly uploaded
19 document -- no, you may replace the old document with the newly uploaded
20 one. That was one matter. Yes, was it MFI'd, Madam Registrar? It was.
21 THE REGISTRAR: It was MFI'd, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then it's hereby also admitted. D498 is
23 admitted into evidence.
24 For the next item, we briefly turn into private session.
25 [Private session]
11 Pages 23484-23488 redacted. Private session.
14 [Open session]
15 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
17 We'll now take the time to deal with the scheduling of witnesses
18 until the summer recess.
19 Mr. Groome, you asked to reserve time for that.
20 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. And Ms. Bibles will deal with
21 this matter. Thank you.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 Ms. Bibles.
24 MS. BIBLES: Your Honour, I have received or we have received the
25 list of Defence proposed witnesses to the end of the break. We had
1 provided a list of witnesses that we would not object to; i.e., they --
2 for example, they fell within our agreement or they did not fall within
3 the agreement but we agreed they could come. My quick review of the list
4 reveals that most of the witnesses are fine but there are two witnesses
5 that we would object to. They have not testified previously.
6 I'll address that with the Defence team at the next break, and I
7 think at that point then we can probably give better advice to the
8 Trial Chamber and prepare the issue better.
9 JUDGE ORIE: So we'll then wait for you -- well, later this
10 morning. There is one issue, the two witnesses, GRM159 and 158, they are
11 both scheduled for the 14th of July. Are they among the ones -- I
12 remember that there was some discussion as to whether there would be need
13 to cross-examine them at all but that depended on a further agreement on
14 skipping or at least doing something with part of their statements. I
15 think it had to do with relevance or tu quoque issues.
16 Now, has that been resolved? Because on this list we see that no
17 time is reserved for cross-examination.
18 MS. BIBLES: That's accurate, Your Honour. The --
19 JUDGE ORIE: The matter has been resolved?
20 MS. BIBLES: The matter has not been resolved. I believe, as the
21 Chamber may recall, we had suggested that these may be appropriate for
22 92 bis consideration.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MS. BIBLES: But we have discussed the matter. We have advised
25 that at this point based on the statements alone there would not be
2 There may be -- if there was cross-examination, it would be very,
3 very small with respect to one witness.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you further see whether you could reach
5 an agreement on whether to make these witnesses 92 bis witnesses where
6 the Prosecution apparently has not much to deal with in
8 Mr. Lukic, has the Defence made up its mind already on the matter
9 or ...?
10 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, we do not have resources as the
11 Prosecution has, so for us it's not that easy to organise all the
12 witnesses and to contact them. I was just informed --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yeah, but --
14 MR. LUKIC: -- a few seconds ago that two witnesses from this
15 list we provided this morning cannot be here, because we were not able to
16 contact them --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but --
18 MR. LUKIC: -- before.
19 JUDGE ORIE: -- Mr. Lukic, you're dealing with other matters.
20 MR. LUKIC: I know.
21 JUDGE ORIE: But to change a Rule 92 ter witness into a 92 bis
22 witness does not take much time. You just have to tell them, You don't
23 have to come and the statement which needs to be taken anyhow, 92 ter,
24 92 bis, it has to be signed anyhow. The only thing is the attestation.
25 It doesn't take any more than that. So I was focusing exclusively on
1 GRM158 and 159. And I think I announced that we would further hear from
2 the parties after the next break once they had sat together with coffee
3 or tea.
4 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And the Chamber, to the extent possible, would
6 like to be informed further with the matter with GRM158 and 159 would
7 have been resolved, at least as far as the Defence is concerned, because
8 I can imagine that even if the attestation would not be received before
9 the 14th of July, if the witness becomes a 92 bis witness then we are not
10 in a hurry. It could well be done in August or September or whenever
11 because the witness doesn't have to come to The Hague. I should say the
13 Then having dealt with that, I don't think that I have any other
14 procedural issue at this moment which means that we could invite the
15 Defence to call its next witness. The next witness would be?
16 Mr. Stojanovic.
17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Sinisa Maksimovic.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
19 MS. BIBLES: Mr. President.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Bibles.
21 MS. BIBLES: There is -- I have 55 words that might eliminate a
22 procedural issue.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. 55 words. I'll count them. Please proceed.
24 MS. BIBLES: Your Honour, on 10 June at transcript 22452, I asked
25 for additional time to provide further submissions on the admission of
1 two statements currently MFI'd as P6585 and P6586. At this time I
2 withdraw my motion for admission while we explore other avenues of
3 presenting the relevant substance of these statements into evidence.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Bibles. It doesn't come as a
5 surprise because it was announced already.
6 Madam Registrar, P6585 and P6586 are vacated.
7 [The witness entered court]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Maksimovic.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Before you give evidence, Mr. Maksimovic, the Rules
11 require that you make the solemn declaration that you'll speak the truth,
12 the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. The text is handed out to
13 you. I would like to invite you to make that solemn declaration.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
15 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
16 WITNESS: SINISA MAKSIMOVIC
17 [Witness answered through interpretation]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated Mr. Maksimovic.
19 Mr. Maksimovic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Stojanovic.
20 You'll find him to your left. Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.
21 You may proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
24 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, for the record, kindly tell us your first
25 and last name slowly.
1 A. Sinisa Maksimovic.
2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness be asked
3 to approach the microphone. Thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could you come a bit closer to the
6 THE WITNESS: Okay.
7 JUDGE ORIE: The interpreters have difficulties hearing you.
8 Witness, you -- you said "okay," was that because you understood
9 my English or it was interpreted to you?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understood.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you understand English. That's sometimes
12 useful for us to know.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To a certain extent.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 Mr. Stojanovic, please proceed.
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 Q. Mr. Maksimovic, please tell the Court whether at some point in
18 time you provided a statement to General Mladic's Defence team in written
20 A. I did.
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can we please have
22 1D01605 in e-court. Page 1, please.
23 Q. Sir, are the details contained in this first page correct and is
24 this your signature?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Let us now go to the last page, please. Is the signature on the
2 last page of the document yours? And the numbers 20/05/2014, is that in
3 your own handwriting?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Thank you. If I were to put the same questions to you today that
6 were put to you while preparing your statement and during proofing,
7 having solemnly declared to speak the truth, would you remain with the
8 statement you provided to General Mladic's Defence team in its entirety?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I seek to tender the
12 accompanying documents with this statement, 65 ter numbers 1D02052.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Are you tendering the statement or the associated
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] First the statement and then the
16 associated exhibits, Your Honour. I apologise. First I'd like to tender
18 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bibles, no objections?
19 MS. BIBLES: No objections. No objection.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D1605 receives number D547,
22 Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ORIE: D547 is admitted into evidence.
24 And I hasten to add to that, Mr. Stojanovic, that it seems that
25 due to the colour of the copying that for this statement, again, and that
1 apparently the cover page and the last page, the signature page, have
2 been separated once because they are totally different in colour as far
3 as copying is concerned. The ERN numbers -- the -- therefore, I would
4 again, if you separate those parts of a document I would insist in the
5 future that not only the first and the last page are signed but that the
6 other pages are initialed as well, and once the statement is complete
7 that you also attach a complete translation. I can see on the signature
8 page that the witness signed for five pages, but that, for example,
9 doesn't appear in the English version.
10 Now not dramatic at this moment but a very careful and accurate
11 handling of documents is, as we know by now, an absolute requirement.
12 Associated exhibits. You mentioned one already, that was, I
13 think 1D1 --
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I will repeat.
15 JUDGE ORIE: 1D -- well, there is no need. 1D02052.
16 MS. BIBLES: Your Honour, we do object to this map. It's a
17 street map which lacks clarity, and, upon reflection, does seem to
18 confuse and mislead with respect to the area involved. So we would
19 object to this associated exhibit at this time.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Could we have a look at it.
21 And could you meanwhile, Mr. Stojanovic, respond to the
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. I believe
24 that that is not correct and that the witness marked the positions on
25 this map, according to his best recollection, positions of his unit and
1 position of two features that are referred to in our case.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Well, whether he marked anything or do you want to
3 say that he confirmed pre-marking -- unless the witness did it himself.
4 Witness, could you have a look at the screen. Those red oval
5 signs and the lines, did you mark that yourself or was it marked for you
6 and did you state it? Did you state about those markings?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This map was presented to me in the
8 Karadzic case and I marked the positions of my unit. And in the depth
9 two features or rather two villages. In the technical sense, I don't
10 know whether I actually made the markings or not, but this does represent
11 what I know about that part of the territory.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bibles, is your problem that you disagree with
13 the markings in the statement? Because you said it did not -- it was
14 unclear and vague and ...
15 MS. BIBLES: We've two objections. First is: I'm not sure I
16 understood the answer when the witness indicated that in the technical
17 sense he does not know whether he made the markings or not.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I take it that he wants to say that he, not
19 himself, did not put those red ovals or the red line on that map but that
20 it was done either upon his instruction or without his instruction but
21 that he stated or testified about it. That is how I understood his
22 testimony. And the witness nods to confirm that at this moment.
23 MS. BIBLES: Second, Your Honour, looking at the map itself we
24 obviously have had a number of maps presented with respect to the area of
25 Sarajevo and around Sarajevo. This is a street map which is very
1 confusing in light of the actual topography and the various areas that
2 are at issue with respect to this map. And that would bear --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Could you be a bit more concrete? I mean, it looks
4 very much as a -- as an extract of a map we have seen very often before.
5 Or is there anything ...?
6 MS. BIBLES: Well, one of the confusing aspects, Your Honour, is
7 a place that is very much at issue is referred to as Sharpstone. With
8 respect to this particular area, which does not appear to be reflected on
9 the map, and that appears to be what -- part of the substance of this
10 witness's testimony would be about that area.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Typically seems to be a matter which, if he marked
12 it in this way, you can further test those markings during
13 cross-examination, I would say. I do not see anything in the map itself
14 apart from you would have wished, perhaps, some features to be found more
15 explicitly. The objection is overruled.
16 Madam Registrar, the number would be?
17 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D2052 receives number D548,
18 Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
20 Any other associated exhibits, Mr. Stojanovic?
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, two more. I'm going to
22 read both of them: 65 ter numbers 1D02053 and 1D02054.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bibles, no objections?
24 MS. BIBLES: No objections, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D2053 receives number D549. And
2 document 1D2054 receives number D550, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Both are admitted into evidence. I see that in the
4 statement of the witness the Mladic 65 ter numbers are used, so therefore
5 we don't have to pay further attention to the Karadzic exhibit numbers
6 unless you would want to further explore the Karadzic statement on the
8 In that case, Ms. Bibles, you should clearly state on the record
9 that what 65 ter number in this case corresponds with the 65 ter number
10 and -- oh, the exhibit number in the Karadzic case.
11 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honours, I
13 would like to read the summary of the statement.
14 Witness Sinisa Maksimovic in the course of the war carried out a
15 series of establishment and superior duties at the Sarajevo front,
16 starting as a signals officer at the signals platoon at the SRK command,
17 duties in the Intervention Platoon in the Igman Brigade, and company
18 commander in the 1st Romanija Brigade in Mrkovici and in the
19 Igman Brigade. He took part in the fighting at Igman in the summer of
20 1993 when the Army of Republika Srpska occupied positions of the
21 Brezovaca facilities and the Tresnido Brdo [phoen] trig point from which
22 the B&H army fired from their artillery weapons at positions of the VRS
23 and at civilian buildings in Hadzici.
24 After reaching an agreement with UNPROFOR, the VRS withdrew from
25 this position because the UNPROFOR was supposed to take them over and
1 keep them under their control. However, he witnessed a deception on this
2 point because immediately after the VRS withdrew from this feature, it
3 was captured or taken over by the B&H Army.
4 Similar situation where the B&H Army and UNPROFOR acted together
5 occurred during the NATO bombing in late August and in September 1995.
6 UN Rapid Intervention Forces from positions of the B&H Army and together
7 with them with aerial support from -- fired from artillery weapons of the
8 highest calibre and range at positions of the VRS at which time their
9 command post was struck, the witness's command post.
10 This witness was also an eye-witness of artillery fire by the B&H
11 army with 120- and 82-millimetre mortars and from howitzers at Ilidza.
12 The witness is familiar with positions of the VRS and the B&H Army in the
13 section of Spicasta Stijena and Grdonj hill because with his company he
14 held the position in the forest on the slopes of Grdonj hill.
15 The vantage point and the highest trig point of Grdonj hill was
16 held by forces of the B&H Army who had a good vantage point over that
17 part of town as well as Spicasta Stijena, the peek of which was held by
18 the VRS.
19 Neither his nor the neighbouring units at the time when he was in
20 the area had any sniper weapons, and knowing this terrain in connection
21 with incident F16 from the indictment, the witness asserts that the VRS
22 positions were over 1.000 metres away from where the incident took place.
23 Your Honours, that would be the summary and now I'm going to put
24 some questions to the witness.
25 JUDGE ORIE: But I suggest you do that after the break.
1 We take a break and we resume at 20 minutes past midday after the
2 witness has left the courtroom.
3 We'd like to see you back in 20 minutes.
4 [The witness stands down]
5 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at 20 minutes past 12.00.
6 --- Recess taken at 12.02 p.m.
7 --- On resuming at 12.23 p.m.
8 JUDGE ORIE: We are waiting for the witness to come into the
10 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honours, the interpreters have a
11 correction. At the end of the previous session Mr. Stojanovic actually
12 said that he has no questions for the witness.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Which means that Ms. Bibles can start her
14 cross-examination right --
15 MS. BIBLES: Yes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: -- after the arrival of the witness.
17 [The witness takes the stand]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Maksimovic, since Mr. Stojanovic has no further
19 questions for you, you'll now be cross-examined by Ms. Bibles. You'll
20 find her to your right. And Ms. Bibles is counsel for the Prosecution.
21 Ms. Bibles, please proceed.
22 MS. BIBLES: Thank you, Mr. President.
23 Cross-examination by Ms. Bibles:
24 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Maksimovic.
25 A. Good afternoon.
1 Q. Mr. Maksimovic, I would first like to start with a few questions
2 about the statement that has been prepared for this case, for the Mladic
3 case. First, could you tell us how many days you were interviewed in
4 preparation for this statement?
5 A. I didn't understand whether you mean preparations in The Hague or
6 the total preparations for my testimony?
7 Q. Preparation prior to your arrival at The Hague in preparation for
8 signing your statement.
9 A. I think that it was in April 2013, that was the first time. Then
10 twice in October, and then again in December. That was the last time.
11 In 2013.
12 Q. Did you review a draft statement on any of those dates?
13 A. Each time I would come to prepare, I would be shown what I had
14 said and then corrections were made, whether everything was all right or
15 not. The last time when I received my complete statement, I made
16 handwritten corrections, I sent it back, and then I received the final
17 version of my statement, I signed it, and that's the statement that we
18 just looked at.
19 Q. All right. If we could direct attention to the fourth page of
20 your statement under the section that has a bold "F16." I would like you
21 to take a look at that when it comes up on the screen.
22 MS. BIBLES: And that would be D547.
23 Q. Could you please take a look. As we see F16, there is one
24 sentence, and then there is a paragraph that begins -- could you please
25 carefully read that first sentence?
1 A. To read it out loud?
2 "About an alleged sniper-related incident on the
3 6th of March, 1995, from Spicasta Stijena towards Sedrenik."
4 Q. Great. And just the line below that, could you read it to
5 yourself and tell me whether it's accurate?
6 A. I suggested this also the last time that I read it. I was
7 actually not the company commander in this period and this is what is
8 missing at the beginning of the sentence.
9 Q. And, I'm sorry, could you clarify for us whether you were or were
10 not the commander of the company on the 6th of March, 1995?
11 A. I was transferred to the Igman Brigade in 1994 in the month of
12 December so that I was not there at that period, but I did speak about
13 this incident because I was familiar with the terrain. At the beginning
14 of the paragraph what is missing is that "although during this period I
15 was not the commander of the company."
16 Q. So just to be clear, you meant to say that you were not the
17 commander of the company in who --
18 A. During that period.
19 Q. Okay. So is it true then that you have no direct or personal
20 knowledge of events which occurred in that -- the zone of that company on
21 the 6th of March, 1995?
22 A. None that would be direct or personal. That's correct.
23 Q. Now at the top of this section, it's titled "F16," do you know
24 what is meant by F16?
25 A. I think that is a marking from the indictment, the marking that
1 somebody allocated to an incident that is in the indictment.
2 Q. In the Karadzic case a similar paragraph of your statement began
4 "It has been explained to me that 6 March, 1995, a sniper
5 incident also allegedly occurred."
6 Could you tell us what was explained to you about the 6 March
7 1995 incident prior to the Karadzic statement?
8 A. I was shown photographs from the place where the incident took
9 place. I was shown the supposed place where the projectile was fired
10 from. I was just talking about the units' positions and the possibility
11 or impossibility of firing from that position.
12 Q. And who did you have this discussion with?
13 A. There was somebody there from the Defence team. I think it was
14 Sladojevic. He was a member of Mr. Karadzic's Defence team.
15 MS. BIBLES: I'd now like to move to paragraph 5 of D547.
16 Q. And I'd like to ask you a question about paragraph 5 of your
17 Mladic statement.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: While this comes up on the screen, I would just
19 like to ask the witness about F16.
20 If I understood you correctly, in March 1995 you were not the
21 commander of the company in whose zone of responsibility that specific
22 position was on.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Why did you sign this statement with this
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because I spoke responsibly about
2 the unit's positions and the possibility due to the distance of whether
3 it was possible to shoot or not. So it was my subjective opinion about
4 the possibility of firing, and it was my assumption that this incident,
5 just like many other incidents, could have happened because of a stray
6 bullet or something.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is not my question. I asked you why did you
8 sign this statement with this mistake in relation to your command or not
9 being in command?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was an oversight on my part. In
11 the final version of my statement, I did correct a few errors but that
12 one I missed, so it was only when I came to The Hague in the proofing I
13 drew Mr. Stojanovic's attention that this word is missing, not that at
14 that period I was not the commander. That's the problem.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Then I state for the record that during
16 examination-in-chief this correction was not mentioned. Thank you.
17 MS. BIBLES:
18 Q. Now, directing your attention to --
19 JUDGE ORIE: If I could --
20 MS. BIBLES: Sorry.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue on this item, I'm perhaps also
22 addressing the Defence. Apparently in this part of the statement
23 something is filled in:
24 "Although during this period /I/ was the commander of the
1 I wonder where the "I" comes from because the "although" suggests
2 that there is knowledge despite not being in command over there. The
3 "although" is otherwise unexplainable, and therefore I would invite the
4 parties to review and to see whether there may be any -- any explanation
5 in the original text which, of course, I cannot read myself, but at least
6 it is suggested that the "I" does not clearly appear in the original one
7 but textually we'll have to look at it.
8 Ms. Bibles, because it now becomes so much of a focus that we
9 should pay proper attention to it.
10 Please proceed.
11 MS. BIBLES: Perhaps we should go back to the section of F16.
12 Q. Mr. Maksimovic, in reading the B/C/S sentence, the first sentence
13 that has to do with the command of this unit. In B/C/S does it indicate
14 the subject of command, who it is, whether it's you or someone? Is it --
15 I guess what I'm asking is: Is this sentence - this first sentence - in
16 B/C/S grammatically correct?
17 JUDGE ORIE: What -- yes, we could ask the witness, but, as a
18 matter of fact, I announced that we should ask experts in language rather
19 than --
20 MS. BIBLES: Sorry.
21 JUDGE ORIE: But I do not mind if the witness answers the
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, did you have a look at your original?
25 Could you tell us whether in the third line of where we read F16, whether
1 it's -- as far as you are concerned, it's clear who was in command of the
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the Serbian language this
4 sentence is confusing, because it says "although during this period was
5 the commander of the company," so it's nonsense. Although the sentence
6 should state, "Although during this period I was," or "I was not the
7 commander of the company." I felt that this was a typing error, and I
8 did draw Mr. Stojanovic's attention to this when we spoke about it at the
9 hotel. I didn't think that it would create any major problems, but I can
10 here clarify now that from my entire statement it is evident that I was
11 not at that command post throughout that whole period. And so this
12 sentence should correctly state: Although during this period I was not
13 the commander of the company. I think it's a grammatical error.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now you have drawn the attention of
15 Mr. Stojanovic to that error?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, what did you do with that
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that is correct,
20 Your Honours. I felt that based on the contents of the paragraph that
21 you can see in front of you, you can clearly see that it is contradictory
22 because later in the same --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic --
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] -- paragraph it says
25 December 1994 until the end --
1 JUDGE ORIE: -- I'm going to stop you there. Another puzzle for
2 the Chamber where a witness clearly draws your attention to what he
3 considers to be a mistake and you leave it as it is and you leave it to
4 us then to read everything in context and then find the month of December
5 and then have to conclude that there was a mistake, whereas the witness
6 is clear that he has drawn your attention to it. It's coming closer and
7 closer to malpractice, Mr. Stojanovic. Please be aware of that.
8 Ms. Bibles, you may proceed.
9 MS. BIBLES:
10 Q. Going back now to paragraph 5 of your statement, I just want to
11 clarify a matter and it would be the -- unfortunately the bottom of
12 page 2 and the top of page 3 in the English.
13 Here you indicate that you completed your officer education on
14 26 June, 1992, and were appointed company commander at Mrkovici.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: 1992 or 1994, Madam Bibles?
16 MS. BIBLES: 1992, Your Honour. Or, I'm sorry, 1994. You're
17 absolutely correct.
18 Q. Do you stand by that statement in this -- in your Mladic
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Mr. Maksimovic, the reason that I asked that question is that in
22 paragraph 4 of your signed Karadzic statement --
23 MS. BIBLES: Which perhaps we could take a look at 1D02051,
24 paragraph 4.
25 Q. -- you suggest or say that you finished your education on the
1 26th of June, 1994, and became the company commander in Mrkovici on
2 27 July, 1994. Is that -- which of the two statements is more correct
3 with respect to when you became the company commander?
4 A. I can say this: After I completed my education, I had about 20
5 days of time that I spent at the command of the 1st Romanija Brigade
6 until I was transferred. I cannot give you the exact date when I came to
7 Mrkovici. I cannot remember it. I cannot remember what day it was.
8 While waiting to be transferred, I and the chief of staff of the
9 1st Romanija, we toured some positions including the battalion command,
10 the company command at Mrkovica. It was summer. I don't know whether it
11 was already July. I couldn't really tell you precisely. So after the
12 last tour with the chief of staff, I was told that I would be transferred
13 to that company.
14 Q. Who did you take over for? Who was the prior company commander
15 that you replaced?
16 A. The person that I replaced was Mr. Blasko Rasevic.
17 Q. I'd next like to clarify some of your military experience that
18 may be relevant to this case.
19 MS. BIBLES: If we could go back to D547 and paragraph 1.
20 Q. Paragraph 1 of your statement describes that prior to the war you
21 lived in Blazuj, Ilidza municipality. Were you a member of the
22 Territorial Defence for Blazuj?
23 A. No. In 1991, in September, I began serving my regular military
24 service with the JNA Prokuplje, the Republic of Serbia. Until the
25 15th of May, 1992, I stayed there when I was returned together with a
1 number of other soldiers to Lukavica. In other words, I had no occasion
2 to be a member of any other armed forces save for the regular JNA. Upon
3 arrival in Lukavica, I stayed with the signals unit. There was a radio
4 relay station near the SRK command and we as soldiers maintained
5 communication between the Main Staff and the SRK command. It was at
6 Trdomici [phoen] hill nearby. After that, I asked to be reposted to my
7 native town of Blazuj. I was indeed sent there and joined the unit
8 comprising my friends, neighbours, and family members. I accompanied
9 them to the lines we held at the very beginning of the war. I'm not sure
10 I discussed it here, but I can tell you that we held the lines at the
11 foot of Igman at the same or about the same altitude as the quarry.
12 After that sometime in --
13 Q. Thank you. We'll go through the relevant portions with you. And
14 I just wanted to clarify then, in paragraph 2 when you say that you were
15 reassigned to the SRK, this is the reassignment you're talking about from
16 your mandatory service to the SRK?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And then you've described that you requested a transfer to the
19 Igman Brigade. Do you know when the Igman Brigade was created?
20 A. No, I don't know precisely.
21 Q. Do you know approximately?
22 A. You see, sometime during May 1992 combat activities began and
23 some units came into being; thus, I never inquired particularly about
24 this one. I really can't say when it was established.
25 Q. Do you know if it was formed from the Blazuj Territorial Defence?
1 A. I don't think so, because in Blazuj there was a JNA barracks. I
2 think the unit was formed from JNA members, at least those who stayed.
3 And then all other available men from the settlement itself joined.
4 Q. Now in paragraph 2 you describe that Dunjic was the commander of
5 your unit. Was this Major Velimir Dunjic?
6 A. Yes. At some point of time he commanded a brigade. I don't know
7 whether he was already in command when I joined the Igman Brigade or
8 afterwards, but I do know that he was one of the commanders who together
9 with me and my unit participated in certain combat activities. That is
10 the period I remember him from.
11 Q. Is it true that the Igman Brigade was one of the smallest
12 brigades in the SRK?
13 A. I don't know, perhaps.
14 MS. BIBLES: If we could see 65 ter 30877.
15 Q. Sir, this is a combat readiness report for the
16 Igman Light Infantry Brigade for the first half of 1993. Do you see the
17 description in the upper left side of the report on the state of combat
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And I can tell you that it's signed by Lieutenant-Colonel Cojic.
21 Would you like to look at the last page on the signature line?
22 A. No need. I do recall Lieutenant-Colonel Cojic. I recall his
23 last name although we never met. Since so much time has elapsed, I don't
24 remember him particularly well.
25 MS. BIBLES: If we could go to page 4 in both versions.
1 Q. While this is coming up, in the fist line of paragraph 3 of your
2 statement, you state:
3 "I became a member of the Igman Brigade Intervention Platoon with
4 the 4th Battalion in January 1993."
5 Now turning your attention to page 4 here, we see a listing of
6 the units that comprise the Igman Brigade in 1993. And I have a question
7 about which unit you were a part of. Were you a part of the
8 4th Infantry Battalion or were you part of, down at the bottom, the
9 Independent Intervention Company?
10 A. My unit belonged to the 4th Infantry Battalion in Blazuj. I'm
11 not aware of this other unit you referred to.
12 Q. While we're on page 4, just below the listing of these units is a
13 description of several brigade facilities which require manpower from the
14 brigade. I want to ask you about four of these. There is the Hadzici
15 maintenance and repair depot, the --
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Ms. Bibles.
17 MS. BIBLES: Yes, sorry.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Are you sure that we have the corresponding page
19 on the screen?
20 MS. BIBLES: Let's see. Ah, no.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
22 MS. BIBLES: We don't. Let's see. The English is correct, so I
23 believe we need to go perhaps back, if I remember everything correctly,
24 on the B/C/S. No. I'm sorry. We need to go to page 5 in B/C/S. My
1 Q. Does that make more sense?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Yes. Okay. Now, then, going below the list that we were just
4 asking about, I want to just ask a couple of questions about these four
5 facilities: The Hadzici maintenance and repair depot; the Zunovnica
6 ammunition depot; and then barracks in Blazuj; and is it Usivak? Are
7 these all within the area of responsibility of the Igman Brigade?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. In paragraphs 3 and 4 of your statement, you describe ABiH fire
10 on Hadzici and Ilidza. Were these four locations some of the targets of
11 that fire?
12 A. You see, as for Hadzici, in addition to the military facilities
13 you mentioned, the targets were all over the place. Hadzici is so
14 situated that it was exposed to shell fire, machine-gun fire from higher
15 up incessantly and randomly it seems to me. Specifically, the way I see
16 that shelling of Hadzici and Ilidza, I could not observe that one of
17 these facilities was hit in a particular moment in time. I only know
18 that both soldiers and civilians were often injured by fire coming from
19 Igman. Somewhere in my statement I mentioned it. Very well.
20 Q. I'd like to go back to talking about the intervention unit.
21 MS. BIBLES: But before I move on, I tender 65 ter 30877.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Document 30877 receives number P6630,
24 Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: P6630 is admitted.
1 MS. BIBLES:
2 Q. Is it true that around the 31st of August, 1993, there was a
3 substantial reorganisation of the Igman Brigade?
4 A. Please clarify.
5 Q. Your statement explains that in September of 1993 you went to the
6 officer school in Banja Luka. Isn't it correct that at that same time
7 three intervention companies in the Igman Brigade were eliminated?
8 A. Yes. I do recall that when I left the Intervention Platoon of
9 the 4th Battalion, shortly afterwards the Intervention Platoon was
10 disbanded and the soldiers moved to other units. But that was not my
11 personal experience. I only heard about it because by that time I had
12 already gone to Banja Luka.
13 Q. All right.
14 MS. BIBLES: Perhaps it would be helpful to look at the order
15 reorganising the brigade for the next few questions. That would be
16 65 ter 30889.
17 Q. And, sir, while this comes to our screen, this was signed by
18 Colonel Cojic on 31 August, 1993. And again, can you see the upper
19 left-hand side where it lists the subject of this order?
20 A. Okay. I see it.
21 Q. Do you have any need to see the last page or the signature page
22 of this order before we go through it in more detail?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Turning to page 2 in both version, hopefully, we'll look at
25 point 6, and we see that it states:
1 "On 1 September, 1993, the following unit shall cease to exist:"
2 And it lists three intervention companies. The T or the
3 Tomo Veljancic Intervention Company, the Hadzici Intervention Company,
4 and the Blazuj Intervention Company. Which one of these intervention
5 companies were you a member?
6 A. The Blazuj Intervention Platoon.
7 Q. Were you familiar with the other two intervention companies?
8 A. I'm aware of them. I knew some people who were members of those
9 units. Perhaps not very closely, though.
10 Q. Turning to page 3 at point 7 in both versions --
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I --
12 MS. BIBLES: Oh, yes.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- before it disappears from the screen, I ask
14 the witness: We saw in the document a reference to the
15 Blazuj Intervention Company. Your answer was in relation to the
16 Blazuj Interference Platoon. Was it a platoon or a company?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a platoon. It had between
18 25 and 30 people, maybe even less. But, in any case, it was no company
19 but a platoon and it belonged to the 4th Blazuj Battalion.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And there was no Blazuj Intervention Company?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] None that I know of.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Because we see this term in this document, which
23 we have in front of us.
24 JUDGE ORIE: But could I -- in addition to that, I see two times
25 the word "ceta" and one time the word "vod," where apart from that I see
1 also on the first line "the brigade," which seems not to be translated or
2 at least -- could you slowly read the three lines aloud? Witness?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Item 6 you mean?
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. To start at the second line and then to read
5 the second, third, and fourth line of that paragraph. So starting with
6 "interventa ceta," that's where I -- yes.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The intervention company of the
8 Tomo Veljancic Brigade.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Next line would be?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Hadzici Intervention Company
11 and the Blazuj Intervention Platoon. Those three units existed as part
12 of the Igman Brigade.
13 JUDGE ORIE: That seems to resolves the matter. Could the -- I
14 don't know who prepared this translation, but at least we would like to
15 have it reviewed and to be made more accurate.
16 Please proceed.
17 MS. BIBLES: Thank you.
18 Q. And then turning to page 3 at point 7, we read that:
19 "The T. Veljancic Intervention Company, the
20 Hadzici Intervention Company, and the Blazuj" -- well, I'm going to call
21 it a platoon for now, "Intervention Platoon, have made a vast
22 contribution through their work so far and their struggle for the freedom
23 of the Serbian people and the forming of Republika Srpska.
24 "I wish all members of these units good health and good luck in
25 combat in the new units of the VRS."
1 Did you receive a personal commendation for your work in the
2 Intervention Platoon in -- that would be consistent with this -- this
4 A. To be honest, I don't recall it because I went to Banja Luka for
5 schooling. I don't know whether my colleagues received this. I probably
6 did not, otherwise I would be able to recall it.
7 Q. Now, going to the first intervention company, the
8 Tomo Veljancic Intervention Company, do you know if the members of that
9 company were local or if they came from outside the SRK?
10 A. I think there was a number of locals in that company's structure.
11 I don't know how it was structured, though. But there were mainly young
12 guys who were fearless. For the most part in such intervention units,
13 the personnel was young. In terms of each of these units' structure, I'm
14 not aware of it. I know that in addition to us, the locals in the
15 Intervention Platoon, there were also some refugees from the federation,
16 from the district of Zenica and from Central Bosnia.
17 MS. BIBLES: Now, actually, if we could go back to page 2 just
18 below point 6.
19 Q. We see there that with respect to the Tomo Veljancic Intervention
20 Company, you see subsection a, you see that they are being disbanded and
21 that members from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia are being sent back
22 to the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. So do you have any idea how many
23 men of that company may have come from the FRY?
24 A. No, I don't know how many came from the FRY. But I do know there
25 were several. I'm not certain of the figure, but I don't think there
1 were all too many.
2 Q. Are you aware whether the units' commander was known as
3 Branislav Gavrilovic or Brne?
4 A. Branislav Gavrilovic, aka, Brne. That was the name of that
5 unit's commander.
6 MS. BIBLES: Your Honours, as I move on, I would tender 30889.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Document 30889 receives number P6631,
9 Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
11 Before you continue, Ms. Bibles, I would like to hear from the
12 parties whether they wanted to discuss the scheduling issues at the end
13 of this session or early in the next session. I don't know where we
14 stand at this moment, whether there is already something to be discussed
15 or whether you would still need the next break.
16 MR. LUKIC: I could use next break, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then perhaps it's better to wait --
18 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: -- until after the break.
20 Yes, please proceed Ms. Bibles.
21 MS. BIBLES: Thank you.
22 Q. Mr. Maksimovic, do you know whether that unit was organised by
23 the Serbian Radical Party?
24 A. I'm not personally aware of that.
25 Q. Were you aware that Gavrilovic had received weapons from the
1 Republika Srpska police?
2 A. No. I can only discuss what I know from personal experience.
3 Probably something may have said something of the sort, but I don't know
4 about that.
5 Q. All right. Well let's take a look at a document.
6 MS. BIBLES: 65 ter 14627.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bibles, is that to establish that those weapons
8 were actually provided by or received by?
9 MS. BIBLES: It's the nature of the weapons with respect to what
10 that --
11 JUDGE ORIE: I mean --
12 MS. BIBLES: -- the giving of the weapons would signify.
13 JUDGE ORIE: I mean, if the witness doesn't know anything about
14 it, it's no need to further educate him on these kind of matters so that
15 he would learn what may have happened. If you have any useful questions
16 to put to him in this context, of course you are free to do so, but
17 sometimes there is a tendency of telling the witness what he doesn't know
18 nevertheless is true which is not something which the Chamber would
20 MS. BIBLES:
21 Q. Mr. Maksimovic, is it -- was it an average thing or a normal
22 thing for pistols to be issued to soldiers or TO members by the police?
23 A. As far as I can see here, the date is the 11th of April, 1992.
24 And I'm trying to recall when one might call "normal" at the time. I'm
25 trying to figure out whether it was according to procedure or not. It
1 was at the beginning of the war, and speaking from this place now I would
2 say that it was probably not a correct thing to do. But at the time it
3 may well have been. But then, that's my personal view.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bibles, normality is not really a factual issue.
5 MS. BIBLES: All right.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
7 MS. BIBLES:
8 Q. We'll move away from this document for the time being. Were you
9 aware in 1992 that Gavrilovic's units trained a number of Serbian
10 volunteers who fought in Sarajevo?
11 A. I don't know.
12 Q. What was your understanding of the reputation of Gavrilovic?
13 A. Well, at the very beginning of the war, I remember him enjoying
14 the reputation of an intrepid soldier surrounded by a very strong team.
15 There were no particular rumours, but he was just known as someone who
16 did something at a certain point in time which provided him with a
17 certain reputation in my mind and in the mind of others in terms of his
18 warriorship, so to speak. That's all. But there's nothing more that I
19 could say in particular.
20 Q. You prefaced your answer with "at the beginning of the war." Did
21 you come to learn more about his reputation or did his reputation change
22 throughout the course of the war?
23 A. Could you please be a bit more specific as to changed in what
25 Q. I'll go to some very specific questions. But first I'll check
1 the time. In paragraph 3 of your statement you explain that you took
2 part in an operation in 1993. Was that also referred to as Lukavac 93?
3 A. 1993. Yes.
4 Q. Were you aware that Gavrilovic and his men also took part in this
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did his unit work in co-operation or co-ordination with your
8 intervention unit or platoon?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Were you aware that Gavrilovic's unit took prisoners during this
12 A. Yes, his unit and my unit both had prisoners specifically in that
14 Q. Do you know whether Gavrilovic's men murdered prisoners in this
16 A. I don't know. All I know is that we handed our prisoners over to
17 the brigade command -- or, rather, the military police escorted them.
18 We're talking about three soldiers who were a Serb, a Croat, and a Muslim
19 by ethnicity.
20 Q. Did you hear anything about what happened to prisoners that had
21 been taken by Gavrilovic and his men?
22 A. I think that they were also handed over to the brigade command,
23 but I don't know that personally. All I know is that the soldiers that
24 we had captured were handed over for interrogation. I don't know what
25 happened to them later. One of those prisoners I know was called Pero.
1 I cannot remember his last name. I know that he actually switched sides.
2 From our side he switched to the B&H army. I don't know where that was.
3 Q. I think you're referring to -- I'm sorry. You're referring to
4 one of your prisoners or a prisoner of your platoon?
5 A. Yes.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I put --
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- a question.
9 Do I have to understand that Pero was part of your army and you
10 arrested him as a prisoner before he switched over?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. He was a member of the
12 B&H Army. He was captured and then taken to the brigade command, but
13 then a few years later, perhaps, I heard that he escaped. I don't know
14 where and when. I wouldn't be able to say that.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: So he was not switching over from your army. He
16 just escaped as a prisoner and went to the BiH.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard that.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bibles, I'm looking at the clock.
21 Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.
22 We would take a break of 20 minutes, Mr. Maksimovic.
23 And meanwhile, Ms. Bibles, you thought it would be helpful to
24 look at the order reorganising the brigade for a few questions. You
25 referred to it by 65 ter 30889 but that is now admitted as P6631. That's
2 The other, the translation issue about "companies" or "platoons,"
3 would it be the Prosecution who will submit the translation for review
4 and revision?
5 MS. BIBLES: We'll do so, Your Honour. Thank you.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we take a break and will resume at 20
7 minutes to 2.00.
8 [The witness stands down]
9 --- Recess taken at 1.21 p.m.
10 --- On resuming at 1.43 p.m.
11 JUDGE ORIE: I would like to give an opportunity to the parties
12 to address the Chamber on scheduling issues. Where are we at this
14 MR. LUKIC: Ms. Bibles and I worked hard today on this issue and
15 I think that we reached the agreement at the end. And, Your Honours,
16 would you like me just to send you a list or you want me to --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if you -- if you are in agreement --
18 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: -- then the Chamber is -- it's unlikely that the
20 Chamber would intervene in any way and then we would like to receive a
22 MR. LUKIC: Okay.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Has the matter of 92 ter, 92 bis also been resolved
24 for the two witnesses with the same name?
25 MR. LUKIC: We removed them from that list --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 MR. LUKIC: -- for testimony for the next period. So we'll sort
3 it out somehow.
4 JUDGE ORIE: So you still can consider how to deal with that.
5 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: So -- and are the parties also committed to avoiding
7 chaos and to try to really finalise the scheduled testimony within the
8 time-limits. I want the realistic approach; that's one. And sometimes
9 we may lose 10 or 15 minutes. But the Chamber is not expecting the
10 parties to lose 30 or more minutes just on nothing, on chaos and
12 I take it that you have considered that as well and that you are
13 expected to be realistic approach.
14 MS. BIBLES: Your Honour, we have attempted to estimate as best
15 we can given the variables --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 MS. BIBLES: -- our testimony. Our concern is obviously going up
18 against the recess we would not want a witness postponed over the course
19 of the recess.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MS. BIBLES: And we may come a little short based on our
22 estimates --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
24 MS. BIBLES: -- but right now it looks -- it looks very solid.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Then the Chamber would like to receive a list with
1 the times and the dates.
2 And to use our time as efficiently as possible to ask the witness
3 to be escorted into the courtroom now right away. I asked that the
4 witness be escorted into the courtroom right away.
5 [The witness takes the stand]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Maksimovic, Ms. Bibles will now continue her
8 MS. BIBLES: Thank you, Mr. President.
9 Q. Mr. Maksimovic, to finish the area that we were discussing prior
10 to the break, you mentioned a prisoner who you knew named only Pero. Was
11 that the first name? You nodded.
12 A. I'm not sure. I don't know if his first name was that or if it
13 was his nickname. I really couldn't say.
14 Q. If I suggested a last name of Koblar, would that refresh your
15 recollection at all?
16 A. It's possible, yes.
17 Q. It's possible his name was Pero Koblar?
18 A. Yes, it's possible.
19 MS. BIBLES: If we could have 65 ter 30888 brought to the screen,
21 Q. Now, Mr. Maksimovic, this is a statement given by Pero Koblar.
22 I'll ask you to look at the identifiers in the top of the first page,
23 please. Now you -- prior to the break, you also described that he
24 escaped, and you see in the introduction line here that part of his
25 statement has to do with an escape. Does this appear to be same
1 individual that you were describing prior to the break?
2 A. Very probably, yes. Perica Koblar, yes, I think that that was
3 his name.
4 MS. BIBLES: If we could turn to page 8 in the English and page 9
5 in the B/C/S. If we look at -- I believe it's the bottom of the page in
6 the English version and the top of the page in B/C/S.
7 Q. Koblar describes being questioned in Gavrilovic's presence. Do
8 you see that reference at the top of the page 9 in the B/C/S?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And then down below he describes, without going into the entire
11 paragraph -- but one of Gavrilovic's men on the left of Gavrilovic, or
12 known by Brne, asked a prisoner named Zika in which operations he had
13 participated. And Zika answered 11 -- I think it's Plavih, the soldier
14 raised his AP and fired a burst on Zika. So my question to you is: Were
15 you aware of this unit murdering prisoners during this operation?
16 A. No, I was not aware of this. After capturing Golo Brdo, my unit
17 immediately received the assignment to go to the right to Stupnik. The
18 action was still underway so then we continued on our way. Once we
19 captured those trig points, we heard about fierce infantry fighting that
20 was being waged behind our back, practically. This is what we heard and
21 we received information that our unit, which had taken up the line at
22 Golo Brdo, had been attacked by the B&H army and that they were holding
23 up well. So we went in that direction. So I definitely don't know
24 anything about these other things here.
25 Q. Now you -- you had heard about a Pero and you now believe that is
1 this individual, Mr. Koblar. How did you hear about Pero Koblar?
2 A. I don't know now whether that was while he was actually taken
3 prisoner. I don't know. I didn't capture him. I don't know which of
4 the men did it. I found out that one of them was called Pero. It kind
5 of leaked among the soldiers. Somebody took him. I don't know who it
6 was. And then when we consolidated our lines, we went to our next
8 Q. Do you have any reason to dispute the account of the murder that
9 you read here in Mr. Koblar's statement?
10 A. I didn't read the entire statement. I see the beginning here. I
11 have nothing to say definitely about it. I cannot talk about things that
12 I don't know anything about.
13 Q. It appears we will not finish with your testimony today. Would
14 you agree to take this statement with you over the weekend, it is a
15 rather long statement, but to see if that assists you any in assessing
16 this -- this information?
17 A. It's not a problem at all. I can read it. You mean you would
18 like me to state my view about the truthfulness of the statement? Of
19 course, it's something that I cannot do, but I can read it.
20 Q. I would ask you to read the whole statement and then I may have
21 some additional -- or I would have some additional questions for you on
22 Monday. So we can --
23 A. Very well.
24 Q. We can move on --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Bibles.
1 MS. BIBLES: Yes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Will you provide the witness with the statement
3 during this hearing, or would he receive it through the intervention of
4 the Victims and Witness Section?
5 MS. BIBLES: The -- we can print this out at the conclusion of
6 the court session and give it to the court usher to give to the witness.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Well, first, give it for inspection to the Defence
8 and then give it to the witness.
9 MS. BIBLES: Yes, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's proceed as you suggest.
11 Please proceed now.
12 MS. BIBLES:
13 Q. Well, we'll shift directions and go back to some more details in
14 your statement. From the 20 -- well, sometime in the summer of 1994 to
15 December 1994, you were in the 1st Romanija Brigade of the SRK and you've
16 described that you were the company commander at Mrkovici. And that's
17 described in paragraphs 5 through 9 of your statement. In paragraph 6
18 you describe information that you had received about something that
19 occurred in February of 1994. I want to be very clear that you were not
20 in the 1st Romanija Brigade in February of 1994?
21 A. No, no.
22 Q. And it's correct that you were not anywhere near Sarajevo,
23 actually, on the 5th of November, 1994?
24 A. I was not near Sarajevo, no.
25 Q. So it's true, isn't it, then, that you have no direct or personal
1 knowledge of the events of the 5th of February, 1994, about Markale
3 A. I don't have any personal knowledge. I know only what I heard.
4 MS. BIBLES: If we could go to D547.
5 Q. And look at the end of paragraph 5 in your statement. With
6 respect to your area of responsibility as company commander of the
7 Mrkovici Company of the 1st Romanija Brigade, is it accurate to say that
8 your area of responsibility did not extend back actually to the village
9 of Mrkovici or Radava?
10 A. The villages of Mrkovici and Radava were in the depth of the
11 territory. Members of my unit were actually the inhabitants of those two
12 villages. The area of responsibility encompassed, if I can remember
13 correctly now, about 12 trenches or so belonging to my unit.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please go to the next page in English. We wanted
15 to see the last part of paragraph 5.
16 MS. BIBLES: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Q. Am I reading your answer correctly, that your area of
18 responsibility in this position was -- would this have been the
19 confrontation line?
20 A. I didn't understand you quite, I'm afraid.
21 Q. Your -- you've just testified at line -- well, now 84, starting
22 at line 13:
23 "The area of responsibility encompassed, if I can remember
24 correctly now, about 12 trenches or so belonging to my unit."
25 Can you describe to us what that means?
1 A. These were points of resistance in a connected system of defence.
2 It was my company's responsibility to take care of those 12 or 13
3 trenches that were linked with cross-trenches. They were well fortified
4 and of key importance to the villages of Mrkovici and Radava and the part
5 of Republika Srpska that was ours, Blazuj, Hadzici, Ilidza. The road
6 connecting those parts with the rest of Republika Srpska actually passed
7 not far from the lines that were covered by my unit. It was about some
8 50 or a bit more, a hundred metres as the crow flies, between our main
9 road and the front line. The trenches were well fortified.
10 In the depth of the territory, if you allow me to explain -
11 meaning the villages of Mrkovici, Radava, what else, Mocevci [phoen] -
12 that's where these villages were.
13 Q. Now moving to page 4 of your statement in the section below F16,
14 you describe adjoining units in a way that's a little confusing. So I'd
15 like to go over those again to see if I understand. You used in this
16 section --
17 MS. BIBLES: And this would be in both versions the third full
18 paragraph down that begins with, "I further want to specify ..."
19 Q. You describe the adjoining units based on left or right. Is it
20 all right with you if we go through these and try instead of using "left"
21 and "right" to use "west" or "east" of your position at -- at the line at
22 Mrkovici? So from your position at Mrkovici, let's first go west. From
23 your position in the 1st Romanija Brigade there going west, wasn't the
24 next unit over the Kosevo Brigade?
25 A. The Vogosca Kosevo Battalion. It was mostly the
1 Kosevo Battalion; that's putting it more precisely. Up there we refer to
2 that unit as the Vogosca Brigade because we were practically the last
3 unit in the 1st Romanija that had a neighbour to the right, another
4 larger unit that was not directly part of it. That's to the west.
5 Q. And then actually further west from Kosevo -- the Kosevo area,
6 would actually be the Vogosca Brigade?
7 A. I think that it was all one unit. Perhaps it was the
8 4th Sarajevo Brigade. I -- I don't know exactly. I'm not sure how it
9 was called. I think it was called the 4th Sarajevo Brigade.
10 Q. Could it have -- I'm sorry. Could it have been the 3rd?
11 A. It was a long time ago.
12 Q. Reading your statement, it seems that you're familiar with a
13 location known as Spicasta Stijena, which was also known as Sharpstone.
14 Would you agree with that?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And is it true that with the exception of one night and maybe a
17 couple of days in 1994, this location was held by the VRS from 1992 to
19 A. Yes. We or the VRS held positions there with some brief
20 interruptions. On several occasions, those positions were taken by the
22 Q. Is it correct that Sharpstone, this location, is an elevated
23 point which allows good views of the eastern part of the city of
25 A. There is a good view from the feature of the village of Sedrenik
1 and further afield towards the city of Sarajevo itself. However, it was
2 not the highest trig point in the area of responsibility, or at least not
3 in that part.
4 Q. Okay. But -- but the primary point, I guess, is what you could
5 see from Sharpstone. And I believe --
6 JUDGE ORIE: The witness has --
7 MS. BIBLES:
8 Q. -- you have answered that --
9 JUDGE ORIE: -- answered that question, I think.
10 MS. BIBLES: Yes, yes.
11 Q. Now, despite the fact that you have no personal knowledge of the
12 incident on the 6th of March, 1995, or F16, I would like to ask a couple
13 of questions about the more general comments that you made while
14 discussing this incident in your statement.
15 Now you -- in your statement, you've estimated a thousand metres
16 between the Serbian positions and the victim's location. I'd like to ask
17 you about that. Is it true that you were never provided the specific
18 details of the location of the victim's location?
19 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bibles, the witness did not give an estimation.
20 He said it was more than a thousand metres and he did not present that as
21 an estimate but as knowledge.
22 MS. BIBLES: Oh, I'll go back into that.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
24 MS. BIBLES: Thank you.
25 Q. And how did you come up with the distance of more than a thousand
2 A. I know the area and I also saw some photographs. My conclusion
3 was that the distance was rather great. In the Karadzic case, the
4 Defence team provided me with some photographs taken from Spicasta
5 Stijena. There was information marked on them and it was stated that
6 some of the incidents took place at a distance of over 1.000 metres.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Could I intervene for a moment.
8 Do I understand that you never measured specifically on a map or
9 otherwise that distance and that it's just your conclusion based on your
10 knowledge of the terrain?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Specifically, I couldn't make any
12 measurements because I wasn't there.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Whether you could or not, you didn't do it. That's
14 what I'm asking you.
15 Ms. Bibles, and I'm also looking at you, Mr. Stojanovic, it's of
16 no use to further explore what in the view of a witness the distance
17 would have been if there are maps. The only thing -- and even so,
18 irrespective of whether the witness knew exactly where the victim was,
19 it's just of no use as long as we have maps. So let's move on and listen
20 to evidence which gives a better factual basis for whatever.
21 Please proceed.
22 MS. BIBLES: Thank you, Your Honour. I was just clarifying that
23 he had not -- he had not mapped this -- he had not taken other measures.
24 Q. Mr. Maksimovic, one of the questions with respect to your
25 statement in this particular area has to do with what you were trying to
1 say about the weapons or the personnel who were available at Sharpstone.
2 Now, I'll try to go to the core of the matter. Isn't it true
3 that the SRK and the 1st Romanija Infantry Brigade did, in fact, have
4 weapons and personnel who could fire with accuracy at or over a thousand
6 A. A unit such as a corps would probably have all assets available
7 to it as envisaged by the establishment structure.
8 Q. And again, you were not -- we've established that you were not in
9 this company during any part of 1995 and would not have specific
10 knowledge as to who or what equipment was present during that 1995
12 A. I was not a member of that unit, so I can't discuss it. I don't
14 MS. BIBLES: Mr. President, at this point I would be shifting to
15 another topic. I'm looking at the clock, and this may be a good time to
16 rest for the day.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we'll adjourn for the day, Mr. Maksimovic.
18 We'd like to see you back on Monday, the 7th of July, at 9.30 in
19 the morning. Ms. Bibles is aware that she has another 50 minutes
20 available for cross-examination. I would like to instruct you that you
21 should not speak or communicate in whatever way with whomever about your
22 testimony whether already given or still to be given. Now, you will be
23 provided with a copy of the statement.
24 Has it been presented to the Defence already?
25 Mr. Usher, could you please assist and show -- oh, is it printed
2 MS. BIBLES: It's a long enough statement. Ms. Stewart was
3 concerned about this so we're printing it out right now.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, when I said you had 50 minutes left I
5 had forgotten that it was two and a half hours you announced rather than
6 two hours, so even 80 minutes are left.
7 Mr. Usher, could you assist and show to Mr. Stojanovic the
8 document that is to be provided to the witness.
9 Now, Witness, if I say you should not communicate with anyone
10 about your testimony, that includes matters like what will be provided to
11 you and that is an order of the Court. And that also means that if you
12 would violate that order, that you are subject to, well, pretty heavy
13 penalties in terms even of imprisonment of long duration.
14 We'll wait for the statement to be printed out.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE ORIE: May I take it that the statement is not 500 pages or
17 something like that? No, no, that's now --
18 Mr. Usher, could you provide it to Mr. Stojanovic for inspection.
19 Mr. Stojanovic, as an eye-witness I can assure you that no one
20 added anything in writing on it, so if it is the document then --
21 Mr. Usher, could you please provide the witness with that statement.
22 You have the whole of the weekend to read through it,
23 Mr. Maksimovic. We highly appreciate that you are willing to spend your
24 time on reading the statement. We would like to see you back Monday
25 morning, 9.30. You may now follow the usher.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
2 [The witness stands down]
3 JUDGE ORIE: We adjourn for the day and will resume Monday, the
4 7th of July, 2014, in this same courtroom, I, at 9.30 in the morning.
5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.18 p.m.,
6 to be reconvened on Monday, the 7th day
7 of July, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.