Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 23706

 1                           Wednesday, 9 July 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.  No preliminaries

11     announced.  Therefore, could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

12             Mr. Weber?  Oh, you're just waiting for the witness to come in.

13             MR. WEBER:  Good morning, Your Honours, yes.

14                           [The witness takes the stand]

15                           WITNESS:  LUKA DRAGICEVIC [Resumed]

16                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Dragicevic.  Before we continue,

18     I'd like to remind you that you're still bound by the solemn declaration

19     that you've given at the beginning of your testimony.

20             Mr. Weber will now continue his cross-examination.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning to you and to

22     everybody else in the courtroom.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, would you like the witness to have his

24     statement before him or --

25             MR. WEBER:  It's fine for now.

Page 23707

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then we leave it as is.  Please proceed.

 2             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 30926 for

 3     the witness.

 4                           Cross-examination by Mr. Weber: [Continued]

 5        Q.   I would like to return to the document we left off with

 6     yesterday.  It is from the VRS Main Staff sector for morale, religious,

 7     and legal affairs.  It is dated 19 November 1994.  This is three days

 8     before you became the assistant commander in the SRK, correct?

 9        A.   That's correct.

10        Q.   The subject of the document is entitled: "Directions on some

11     current issues regarding public information."  These are directions from

12     the Main Staff on how to inform the public, right?

13        A.   That's correct, yes.

14        Q.   These directions were sent to the sector for morale, religious,

15     and legal affairs of the SRK, correct?

16        A.   That's correct, although there is something different in the

17     typed text.  It states Main Staff of the VRS as if it's typed on a

18     different machine and then the type is different in the rest of the text

19     but this is not a problem.

20        Q.   Okay.  When you became an assistant commander, you familiarised

21     yourself with the Main Staff directions for your department; is that

22     right?

23        A.   When I arrived, first of all I was briefed by the commander of

24     the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps about the general situation in the area of

25     responsibility of the corps.  And, of course, with -- he informed me

Page 23708

 1     about the elements of morale, his assessment of the current state of play

 2     with respect to morale in the units.

 3        Q.   Sir, if you could listen to my carefully and if you could please

 4     focus very precisely on what I'm asking, did you familiarise yourself

 5     with the Main Staff directions that were in place for your department

 6     when you became an assistant commander in the SRK?

 7        A.   I provided you with a correct answer.  If I were to go through

 8     this document, then I would be able to give you the answer with -- that

 9     you're after.  Initially, I was briefed about the general state of

10     affairs concerning morale in -- of the units in Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, to tell us that you gave the right answer,

12     it may be true what you said but that's not an answer to the question.

13     The question simply was:  Did you familiarise yourself with the

14     Main Staff directions that were in place?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I were to read this document,

16     I would be able to give a correct answer to your question.  I gave my

17     order about how things were.  I do not know the content of this document.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  We are not talking about this document.  We are

19     talking about instructions given by the Main Staff previous to your

20     arrival, whether you familiarised yourself with those directions, whether

21     you, at the time, whether you familiarised yourself with them,

22     irrespective of whether this one is included.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.  I understood what I was

24     briefed about on the day when I arrived.  Of course, later on I studied

25     in greater detail those directions and other elements of morale and

Page 23709

 1     general guidance concerning the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Next question, please, Mr. Weber.

 3             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have page 2 of both

 4     versions.

 5        Q.   I'd like to direct your attention to item 12, which is towards

 6     the lower portion on both pages.  This direction states:

 7             "Mask our offensive activities maximally.  Do not inform the

 8     public about these but in the advance stage present them as part of the

 9     natural right to self defence and a force response.  In other words, a

10     counteroffensive."

11             This is an instruction by the Main Staff to intentionally

12     misinform the public about VRS operations, correct?

13        A.   I think the text reads "do not inform the public."  Well, this

14     is, in terms of military way of doing things, why should the public be

15     informed about military plans.  Military plans are secret by their

16     nature.

17        Q.   Sir, that's not my question.  And sorry to cut you off, but I'm

18     going to start doing that a little bit more.  My question to you was:

19     This is an instruction by the Main Staff to intentionally misinform the

20     public about VRS operations, correct?

21        A.   As far as I can understand, I see that it's not claimed here that

22     public should be misinformed.  It reads the public should not be informed

23     about military operations before they take place.  This is how

24     I understand and read the situation.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  So you take out one line of all of it and you

Page 23710

 1     apparently ignore that the text rather clearly states:

 2             "Give an image, present it in a way different from what it really

 3     is."

 4             Any comment on that?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, of course, this is the basic

 6     rule.  You have to conceal your plans about future military operations.

 7     This is rule number 1, so to speak.  We are not going to inform the

 8     public about what we are about to do.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Next question, please, Mr. Weber.

10             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, I'm happy to follow up on these things.

11        Q.   Here is how you discuss the activities of the SRK in your

12     statement in this case.  I'm going to read you a few passages here.  In

13     paragraph 22 you state:

14             "The main goal of the army was to defend and protect the

15     people" --

16        A.   Apologise.  I do not have the text in front of me.

17        Q.   Sure.

18             MR. WEBER:  If we could have D554, paragraph 22.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  And any problem if the witness would have a hard

20     copy?

21             MR. WEBER:  No.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be provided with a hard copy.

23             MR. WEBER:

24        Q.   Sir, here is how you discuss the activities of the SRK in your

25     statement.  In paragraph 22, you state:

Page 23711

 1             "The main goal of the army was to defend and protect the people

 2     who happened to be in VRS-controlled territory.  Our strategy was not to

 3     occupy all of BiH but to defend those parts which ethnically belonged to

 4     the Serbian people."

 5             In paragraph 22, you also state:

 6             "The strategy of the SRK was to defend the living space of the

 7     Serbian people and to protect itself and other loyal citizens in the area

 8     of Sarajevo and Romanija."

 9             In paragraph 23, you state:

10             "We knew that in the coming several months, we were to face a

11     difficult period of an all-out Muslim offensive."

12             Paragraph 24, you state:

13             "We knew what we were defending and it gave us incredible

14     strength."

15             Just to give one more example.  In paragraph 34, you state:

16             "Our fighters knew what they were defending.  They were defending

17     their homes and families and they knew they would have to sacrifice their

18     lives in order to be successful."

19             In all these statements, you are presenting the SRK's activities

20     as part of a right to self defence, correct?

21        A.   Yes, of course.

22        Q.   You are not describing the strategy of the VRS or SRK as

23     offensive at all.

24        A.   Well, you cannot have self defence without some offensive

25     operations to gain certain positions which -- to make the self defence of

Page 23712

 1     the territory and the people effective.  It doesn't -- this was not an

 2     offensive to -- with the aim of taking the whole of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 3     Offensive operations were taken to gain positions which would allow us to

 4     implement our strategy of defending the territory.  We had to carry out

 5     certain offensive operations to improve our tactical or operational

 6     positions, but the essence of the strategy was defensive.  It was not our

 7     intention to occupy all of Bosnia-Herzegovina and subjugate other peoples

 8     but to defend the right of the Serbian people to live, continue living

 9     freely in the territories that they had inhabited for centuries.

10        Q.   Okay.  So do I understand that you're basically saying that what

11     the VRS was doing was a counteroffensive to defend themselves?

12        A.   Of course.  If somebody carried out offensive operations or

13     threatened certain areas belonging to the Serb people, of course.  It was

14     our mission, our task, to capture those territories --

15        Q.   Sir, sir --

16        A.   -- and put them under our control and liberate that part of the

17     people.

18        Q.   Sir, if you could just answer my question.  You answered it, I

19     believe, right out of the gate there.

20             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution tenders 65 ter 30926 into evidence.

21             MR. IVETIC:  No objection.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30926 receives number P6646, Your

24     Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

Page 23713

 1             MR. WEBER:

 2        Q.   Yesterday, at transcript page 23703, you acknowledged that you

 3     issued work guidelines to subordinate units and to your own department.

 4     How often would you issue these work guidelines?

 5        A.   Whenever I estimated and/or the command estimated that I was

 6     given a task to do so, this happened relatively often.  There was no

 7     rules about them, unlike reports which had to be regular.  Guidelines

 8     would be issued whenever the situation necessitated or whenever a

 9     superior officer demanded that of me.

10        Q.   Okay.  Would you issue guidelines more frequently to the

11     subordinate commands or to your own department?

12        A.   When acting in my capacity of assistant commander for morale,

13     legal and religious affairs, and this was the most often the case,

14     I would issue guidelines falling within that remit.

15        Q.   Okay.  Not sure you answered my question.  Did you more

16     frequently issue work guidelines to the subordinate commands or within

17     your own department?

18        A.   Well, no.  Those guidelines would be issued to subordinated

19     units.  Within the department for morale, legal, and religious affairs

20     I would issue guidelines on a daily basis.  Whenever we got together, we

21     discussed issues, current issues.  We drew conclusions, and I issued

22     requisite orders concerning the activities of my department.

23        Q.   Is it correct that you issued guidelines to all of the SRK

24     brigades?

25        A.   In principle, yes, to all of them.  In other subordinated units

Page 23714

 1     to the command of the S -- RSK [as interpreted], if there was a need to

 2     separate certain brigades or parts of brigades, this was done as well.

 3     This all depended on the situation on the ground.  This dictated and

 4     informed who we addressed those guidelines to.

 5        Q.   The purpose of work guidelines was to instruct members of the SRK

 6     on how to improve morale, correct?

 7        A.   Yes, to the sections and organs for morale, religious, and legal

 8     affairs of the subordinated units.  Those guidelines addressed them.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just can I interrupt, Mr. Weber?

10             Witness, at page 8, line 15, you are recorded as saying, the

11     command of the RSK.  Did you mean RSK or SRK?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Obviously it should read "SRK."

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

14             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

15        Q.   As a morale officer, it was your job to keep members of the SRK

16     focused on the main objectives of the war effort of the VRS, true?

17        A.   Well, first and foremost I was in charge of preserving and

18     building combat morale.  This was my basic duty.  And of course, I took

19     the requisite measures based on that basic task, to achieve the goals

20     that had been set to that department of mine.

21        Q.   Yes.  And were these to keep members of the SRK focused on the

22     objectives of the war effort of the VRS?

23        A.   Of course, yes.  They were aimed at making the members of the SRK

24     and to accept the overall situation, and to explain to them why they

25     should conduct themselves in the way it was described in the directions

Page 23715

 1     and guidelines and that all of these things had a purpose and an

 2     explanation.

 3             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 30902.

 4        Q.   Colonel, these are the SRK command notification and guidelines

 5     for the work of the organ for moral guidance dated 2 December 1994.  The

 6     document contains strictly confidential number 12/2-252.  These

 7     guidelines are type signed from you.  This particular copy of the

 8     guidelines was certified as true by Captain Bajic who yesterday you said

 9     that you believed to be the assistant for morale of the Ilijas Brigade.

10     Is it correct that this document relates to your organ of the SRK

11     command?

12        A.   Although it is not very well visible, I believe this is so, yes.

13        Q.   We can see that -- we can all see that this document deals with a

14     few different things, but I would like to focus your attention to the

15     fifth paragraph of these work guidelines, where you wrote:

16             "Our task is to strengthen the combat morale of our soldiers and

17     officers and to build up confidence in our capabilities and in the

18     excellence of Serbian arms.  Yes, we are genetically stronger, better,

19     more handsome, and cleverer.  Try to remember how many Muslims there were

20     among top ten pupils, students, or soldiers.  Only a few.  Why?  Because

21     they are poturice and only the weakest of the Serbs became poturice."

22             My question:  Do you acknowledge that this is derogatory

23     language?

24        A.   No.  Basically this is all true and confirmed my previous

25     experience.  Life experience.  Since I am interested in biology I know

Page 23716

 1     that the phylogenesis and genetic mutation is something that stems from

 2     it.  I stand by all of it.  Of course, there is a bit of propaganda here

 3     as well --

 4        Q.   Sir --

 5        A.   -- as it is one of the ways to build up combat morale.

 6        Q.   Sir, I'm going to go through each sentence with you but right now

 7     I'd like to stop.  I looked up the definition of racism in the

 8     Oxford Dictionary which said -- which defined it as:

 9             "The belief that all members of each race possess

10     characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race.

11     Especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another

12     race or races."

13             Sir, based on this definition, you are a racist, correct?

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic?

15             MR. IVETIC:  Object to counsel testifying.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course, not.

17             MR. IVETIC:  Object to counsel testifying.  And if he's talking

18     about race, this appears to be talking about people of the same race and

19     according to the common definition of that term.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Now, where does counsel testify, Mr. Ivetic?

21     I think he gave the basis for his question.  He said what he found in a

22     dictionary as the meaning of an expression and that he wants his question

23     to be understood in accordance with that meaning of that word.

24             MR. IVETIC:  And, Your Honours, during the case of the

25     Prosecution, every time we tried to present something we had to present

Page 23717

 1     it --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  No, [Overlapping speakers].

 3             MR. IVETIC: -- on the screen as an exhibit.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we -- so the issue is that you say it's not in

 5     that -- it should be established by putting that dictionary --

 6             MR. IVETIC:  Correct.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  If that's the case, you can perhaps leave the

 8     question for later if that's what Mr. Ivetic considers there should be

 9     doubts about, then we should accept that.

10             Mr. Weber.

11             MR. WEBER:  And if counsel can also please just quickly look up

12     the Oxford Dictionary definition of racism, I believe --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  No, it's --

14             MR. WEBER:  -- [Overlapping speakers].

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Counsel is right that it's up for you to do that.

16     However, if you would have phrased the question not referring to that

17     specific dictionary, you could have phrased the question exactly the same

18     way and then you would not have testified, you would have explained.

19             MR. WEBER:  Okay.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we would have saved five minutes and it also

21     more or less indicates that it's perhaps a bit of a non-issue.

22             MR. WEBER:  Okay.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

24             MR. WEBER:

25        Q.   You already answered the question that I had.  So I'd like to go

Page 23718

 1     through the statements in this paragraph a little bit more.  You say:

 2     "Yes, we are genetically stronger, better, more handsome and cleverer."

 3     You are talking about people of Serb ethnicity, correct?

 4        A.   Yes.  My life experience confirms it and I stand by it.

 5        Q.   You believe that you are genetically more handsome than people of

 6     the Islamic faith?

 7        A.   I said that my experience confirms it.

 8        Q.   So that's a yes, that's what you believe?

 9        A.   Of course.  If I didn't, I wouldn't have written it.  I do like

10     to stress that there is some degree of calculated propaganda so as to

11     build up our soldiers' morale.

12        Q.   We will come to what you just said in a second.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I first try to find out the following.

14             In English, we read:

15             "Yes, we are genetically stronger, better, more handsome and

16     cleverer."

17             Now, you can read that in two different ways.  The first is we

18     are genetically stronger, we are better, we are more handsome; and the

19     other way of reading it is, yes, we are genetically stronger, genetically

20     better, and genetically more handsome.  Now, which of the two?  Do you

21     say that being better and more handsome is also genetically defined?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  I think exactly the same way

23     as it is stated.  The genetic part refers to the adjective stronger, but

24     I don't have the text before me and I'm unable to follow.  It refers to

25     the first term, not the whole phrase.

Page 23719

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then may I advise you to more carefully

 2     listen to the previous question.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.  The problem is not in

 4     listening.  The problem is in me not seeing.  It's too small.  Could we

 5     zoom in on the passage?

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you can't see the question on the screen so

 7     it's also a matter of listening.  Could we enlarge the relevant portion

 8     of the -- which is approximately in the middle of the page.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Paragraph 5.  But we move the English for a short

10     moment.  And then enlarge paragraph 5, please.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  If the translation shows some ambiguity I wonder

12     whether the original text also does so.  That's not -- and I would like

13     to have that verified.

14             MR. WEBER:  We had this document actually verified so the text

15     was as it is -- appears in the --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  I'd like to hear from the Defence --

17             MR. WEBER:  -- currently available translation.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I would like to hear from the Defence whether they

19     consider the original as ambiguous as the translation.

20             Please proceed for the time being.

21             MR. WEBER:

22        Q.   Sir, this is blatantly racist language, isn't it?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   When you say, "Try to remember how many Muslims there were among

25     the top ten pupils, students or soldiers," you're not just talking about

Page 23720

 1     Muslim soldiers here, right?

 2        A.   Soldiers too.  You can see it nicely.  The question is also how

 3     many soldiers there were among the rest.  I worked as an officer, and I

 4     know that I trained soldiers of many ethnicities and this was a

 5     conclusion of mine based on experience again.

 6        Q.   Sir, this is not limited to soldiers, correct?

 7        A.   No.  But it does include them as well.  It's precisely as it's

 8     stated.

 9        Q.   You, as a senior officer, could you tell us what impact this

10     language would have on members of the SRK?  Particularly young recruits

11     who were new to the army?  What was your intended effect of this?

12        A.   The basic goal was to build up combat morale, and to have the --

13     to make the officers and soldiers have faith in themselves so that they

14     grow in self-confidence, confident of their own ability.

15        Q.   And I take it from your testimony today that you find this to be

16     a perfectly acceptable way of trying to build up this morale in the

17     soldiers of the SRK?

18        A.   These instructions were intended first and foremost for the

19     officers working on the issues of morale and religious affairs in

20     subordinate units.  Given the situation in the field, this was not merely

21     a theoretical position.  It was dictated by the situation --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  No, Witness.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- and among other ways --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness --

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- we tried to build up

Page 23721

 1     self-confidence in this way too.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  The simple question was whether you considered this

 3     to be an acceptable way of achieving what you said was your task.  And

 4     I take it from your answer that you just say yes in your view this was an

 5     acceptable way.  Is that correctly understood?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The language is acceptable.

 7     Perhaps the choice of words is not the best one, but I did mention that

 8     there are elements of propaganda therein.  If we were to discuss it

 9     whether it was scientific and 100 per cent correct I'd rather not go into

10     it.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you've explained that.  But you considered it

12     acceptable under the circumstances?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Please move on, Mr. Weber.

15             MR. WEBER:

16        Q.   Going back to paragraph 22 of your statement in this case, you

17     state that the VRS strategy was "to defend those parts which ethnically

18     belong to the Serbian people."  You still view the actions of the VRS as

19     being justified because of your Serb ethnicity today, correct?

20        A.   I did not understand the question.

21        Q.   Do you still view the actions of the VRS as being justified by

22     your ethnicity?

23        A.   I fail to understand at all.  What is it that you're asking of

24     me?

25             JUDGE ORIE:  The question is not very clear, Mr. Weber.

Page 23722

 1             MR. WEBER:  Sorry.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please, because it's a rather complex

 3     matter you are addressing at this moment, and I think the witness is

 4     right in asking you to do it in a more elaborate way.

 5             MR. WEBER:

 6        Q.   In your statement, when you say "to defend those parts which

 7     ethnically belong to the Serbian people," you are saying that the actions

 8     of the VRS were justified because of Serb ethnicity, correct?

 9        A.   I'm still trying to grasp the meaning of the question.  If you

10     have in mind whether our offensive actions --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, I invited you not to repeat the question

12     in a different way but --

13             MR. WEBER:  I was trying to work through your directions.  I'll

14     move on.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  You failed to do that.  Please proceed.

16             MR. WEBER:  All right.

17             If we could go to the next paragraph on the -- if we could

18     return, actually, to the document we were looking at on the screen, which

19     was 65 ter 30902.

20        Q.   Mr. Dragicevic, I'd like to go to the paragraph that follows.

21     It's actually just one sentence that follows the paragraph we were

22     looking at.  So this is approximately the sixth from the top.  The

23     paragraph states:

24             "A solid and well thought out punch in the nose would make them

25     change their faith once again."

Page 23723

 1             When you were referring to changing their faith, you are

 2     referring to the "poturice," as you describe them, aren't you?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Sir, are you saying that religious conversion justified the

 5     actions of the SRK?

 6        A.   No, I'm not saying that.  I'm saying that they frequently changed

 7     faith, and ethnicity even.  Hence, I drew the conclusion that it would be

 8     easy for them to do so again, to move on to the next faith or ethnicity.

 9        Q.   And as a person in morale, is it correct that you were seeking to

10     encourage a solid and well-thought-out punch on the nose in order to

11     accomplish this?

12        A.   During a previous period while I commanded a brigade in Visegrad,

13     I have to say, at the risk of being immodest, I never suffered any

14     defeat.  I always came out victorious and it was precisely that that

15     I based my experience on.  This information covers that experience.

16        Q.   Sir, again you haven't answered my question.  Is it correct that

17     you were seeking to encourage a solid and well-thought-out punch on the

18     nose in order to accomplish this, this conversion?

19        A.   Of course.  In that way, I wanted to encourage those I was

20     addressing; i.e., the subordinate commands and units.  The basis of my

21     statements is in my previous experience.  I knew how one needs to wage a

22     fight against them to be successful, against members of the ABiH army.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I just try to avoid that there is a basic

24     misunderstanding.

25             Apparently, Mr. Weber reads "well-thought-out punch on the nose"

Page 23724

 1     to be inflicted upon the poturice so that they would change their faith

 2     once again, and I must say that sounds at least rather logic.  In your

 3     answer you're saying you are addressing your own subordinates.  But could

 4     you please tell us what you meant in your answer?  You said you wanted to

 5     encourage those I was addressing, it is the subordinate commands and

 6     units.  It looks as if you're addressing them to inflict the

 7     well-thought-out punch on the nose to the "poturice," to encourage the

 8     "poturice" to change their faith again.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  The last part is incorrect.

10     This is what I wanted.  It was my previous experience that I wanted to

11     convey to the people I was addressing in order to encourage them and to

12     tell them that no great effort was needed.  They only needed to be

13     decisive and believe in achieving victory.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  But it reads, for -- I'd say for many perhaps, that

15     you say, "Well, some force will be enough to make them change their faith

16     again," "them" being the "poturice."  Is that misunderstood?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know whether they would

18     change faith, but no one would be forcing them to do so.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  But you would use force with a certain aim, isn't

20     it?  That's what the line is about.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was directed towards achieving

22     combat success and the best possible results.  That is the meaning of

23     this entire paper.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  We've heard your explanation.

25             Please move on, Mr. Weber.

Page 23725

 1             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution tenders 65 ter 30902 into evidence.

 2             MR. IVETIC:  No objection.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30902 receives number P6647, Your

 5     Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  P6647 is admitted.

 7             MR. WEBER:

 8        Q.   I would like to change topics.  In paragraph 2 of your statement,

 9     you indicate that you were the chief of staff and then commander of the

10     Visegrad Brigade in 1992.  Is it correct that the Visegrad Brigade was

11     part of operations group Podrinje?

12        A.   During what?  The term "Operations Group Podrinje" is something

13     I'm not aware of, but do be more specific in terms of period.  I've never

14     heard of an operations group Podrinje.

15             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P3677 for

16     the witness.

17        Q.   This is a VRS Main Staff order to set up

18     Operations Group Podrinje dated 14 July 1992 from General Mladic.  We

19     know this is a few days before you took up your position.  In the first

20     paragraph of this order, there are references to two meetings that were

21     held on 7 and 11 July 1992.  Before we move on, I just want to simply ask

22     you:  Did you attend either of these meetings?

23        A.   No.  And it is the first time that I see this document.

24             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have page 3 of the B/C/S

25     and page 2 of the English translation.  I'm going to be focusing on item

Page 23726

 1     4.

 2        Q.   Colonel, directing your attention to item 4 which discusses the

 3     setting up of Tactical Group Gorazde.  In this section General Mladic

 4     indicates that the 2nd Podrinje Lpbr is to be composed of certain units.

 5     Before we discuss these units, is it correct that your brigade in 1992

 6     was the 2nd Podrinje Lpbr?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   According to this order, your brigade is to be composed of

 9     battalions and manned with the available forces in the Visegrad and Rudo

10     municipalities.  When you took over your position or when you assumed

11     your position in July 1992, who were the forces that were available to

12     man VRS battalions from the Visegrad municipality?

13        A.   At the point of my arrival, the brigade was based on companies.

14     The purpose of this order, in my view, was to make command easier because

15     it was difficult to command the units spread all over that large

16     territory.  Although I had never seen this order, nevertheless

17     I implemented it once I became brigade commander.  The situation dictated

18     that there was a reorganisation of the brigades in this manner.  However,

19     there is one thing that is not clear.  The Visegrad Brigade was based on

20     personnel from the Visegrad municipality rather than from Rudo.

21        Q.   Okay.  Sir, I want to be clear about this.  Is it correct that

22     the 1st Visegrad Light Infantry Brigade was incorporated into the

23     2nd Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade?

24        A.   No.  The initial title was the Visegrad Brigade.  It was later

25     changed to become the 2nd Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade.  It is the

Page 23727

 1     same unit.  However, it was -- there was a change of name and

 2     establishment.

 3        Q.   I think generally we are talking about the same thing, but just

 4     to be clear, was -- the initial Visegrad Brigade, that was commanded by

 5     Vinko Pandurevic, correct?

 6        A.   Correct.

 7        Q.   You also incorporated volunteers from Serbia, right?

 8        A.   That is correct, but I wanted to explain the procedure.

 9        Q.   Sir --

10        A.   We as the brigade could not take anyone in.  Someone had to have

11     been mobilised and sent to the brigade.

12        Q.   Okay.  Sir, we will go through this and if we can do it in an

13     orderly fashion.  I'll keep my questions simple.  The way that the Serb

14     volunteers were incorporated into your brigade was through the SJB, the

15     police station in Visegrad, correct?

16        A.   No.  It went through the military secretariat.  The SJB was

17     included in the part of the process which had to do with the screening of

18     those people arriving, based on their own procedures related to security,

19     et cetera.  The military secretariat accepted such volunteers who had

20     gone through the screening process with the SJB.  They would make sure

21     they had served their military term and did their part of the job.  Then

22     they would mobilise them and such people would receive a draft call which

23     they needed to bring to the brigade.  The brigade received such people.

24     It couldn't take anyone in directly, otherwise it would have been

25     unlawful and it could not be done without the previous checks.

Page 23728

 1        Q.   Were members of the SJB Visegrad, so the policemen themselves,

 2     conscripted into your brigade?

 3        A.   No.  Police is a separate segment.  They functioned separately

 4     from us.  Of course, there was cooperation concerning the situation on

 5     the ground, but they themselves were not members of the brigade.

 6        Q.   Did the members of the SJB Visegrad participate in VRS

 7     operations?

 8        A.   Yes, Of course.  There would be a request sent to their superior

 9     order -- organs, and if that request was resolved in a positive manner,

10     they, if needed, would take part in operations.

11             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I see we are at time for a break.  I was

12     about to move on for a little bit.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

14             MR. WEBER:  If we take it right now --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, if this is a suitable moment for the break.

16             We'll ask the witness to follow the usher and be back in 20

17     minutes.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19                           [The witness stands down]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at ten minutes to 11.00.

21                           --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

22                           --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

23                           [The witness takes the stand]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  You may proceed, Mr. Weber.

25             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honours.

Page 23729

 1        Q.   Mr. Dragicevic, aside from the groups that we discussed already,

 2     were there any other groups that were incorporated into the

 3     2nd Podrinje Brigade?  Specifically in July 1992.

 4        A.   To my knowledge, no.  If you could be more specific, then I could

 5     be more specific in my answers.

 6        Q.   Were there any Bosnian Serb volunteer groups, as I believe how

 7     you would consider them, that were already existing prior to July 1992

 8     that were incorporated into your brigade?

 9        A.   I already explained how one could become member of this brigade.

10     There was no other way except if a regular unit of the VRS would come to

11     help us out.  But specifically, there was no other way to incorporate any

12     other groups into the brigade --

13        Q.   Sir --

14        A.   -- in that period that I spent there.

15        Q.   Sir, I'm going to cut you off because you're explaining to me a

16     process.  My question was factual in nature.  Were there any Bosnian Serb

17     volunteer groups that were existing prior to July 1992 that were

18     incorporated into your brigade?

19        A.   I don't know of any such thing.  It was impossible for anybody to

20     enter the brigade except through going through a process -- the process

21     that I explained to you sometime ago.

22        Q.   Do I understand correctly that your answer today is no, there

23     were no Bosnian Serb volunteer groups incorporated into your brigade?

24        A.   As far as I know, no.  In a way where a group would come to the

25     brigade and the brigade would accept it.  No.  Individuals had to be

Page 23730

 1     mobilised through the mobilisation section, to be issued with draft

 2     calls, and then they would be deployed in specific units.  In July, the

 3     brigade had only companies.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  I try to cut matters short.  Were individuals

 5     incorporated which were known to have been before they were incorporated

 6     to be a group of volunteers, even though admitted individually?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the procedure is the same.

 8     Nobody could enter a brigade without --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Don't repeat your previous answers.  Were -- in

10     accordance with the procedure you already described, were individuals

11     incorporated which were known to have formed a group before they were

12     incorporated?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know about that.  That's

14     possible, but the mobilisation centre would determine who would go into

15     which brigade.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  You don't know.  Please proceed.

17             MR. WEBER:

18        Q.   Is it correct that you testified before the high court in

19     Bijelo Polje Montenegro on 19 February 2002?

20        A.   I can't remember the year, but it is true that I testified before

21     a high court in Bijelo Polje.

22        Q.   In that case you testified to events that related to the

23     abduction of over 20 Muslim men at the Strpci train station in Rudo on

24     27 February, 1993.  That's what the case was about, correct?

25        A.   That's correct.

Page 23731

 1        Q.   During that testimony, did you take an oath to tell the truth?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Was that oath similar to the one you took before your testimony

 4     in this case?

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber --

 6        A.   I can't recall.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  -- how many different oaths you are aware of to tell

 8     the truth and different -- a bit of the truth or all of the truth?  I

 9     mean, it's a useless question, unless there is any specific reason to put

10     it to the witness if you have any reason to believe that these oaths are

11     different from what they are everywhere else in the world.

12             MR. WEBER:  Fine, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

14             MR. WEBER:

15        Q.   In your testimony before the high court in Montenegro, is it

16     correct that you discussed your time as a commander in the

17     Visegrad Brigade and those who were under your command?

18        A.   Yes, I testified about the period while I was brigade commander.

19        Q.   Are you aware that Milan Lukic has been convicted before this

20     Tribunal for crimes committed against the Muslim population of Visegrad?

21             MR. IVETIC:  Object, beyond the scope of the indictment.

22     Visegrad is not in the indictment.

23             MR. WEBER:  This goes to the witness's credibility, and I'm just

24     asking if he was aware of this.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  The objection is denied.  Please proceed.

Page 23732

 1             MR. WEBER:

 2        Q.   Are you aware that Milan Lukic has been convicted before this

 3     Tribunal for crimes committed against the Muslim population of Visegrad?

 4        A.   Yes.  I learned it from the media, about the judgement that was

 5     handed down here.

 6             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 30929 for

 7     the witness.

 8        Q.   Before you is the trial record of your testimony in February 2002

 9     before the high court.  I'm going to go through a number of statements

10     that you made during these proceedings.  While we go through these

11     statements, I may have a few additional questions.  After I go through

12     these statements we will discuss some material related to the statements

13     that you made.  Do you understand?

14        A.   I understood.  I hope I will be able to see what I had testified

15     about concerning the gist of your question.

16             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have page 2 of the B/C/S

17     and page 3 of the English translation.

18        Q.   First, I would like to discuss what you said about the

19     composition of your brigade.  Toward the middle bottom part of the page

20     before you, the trial record states:

21             "The brigade was made up of companies.  It included an

22     intervention company.  Boban Indjic from Visegrad was the commander of

23     this intervention company until he was wounded, when Rade Tanovic came."

24             First, do you see this portion?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 23733

 1        Q.   Can you confirm that this was your testimony about your brigade

 2     and Boban Indjic?

 3        A.   I confirm all the text that you read out loud.

 4        Q.   Toward the bottom of the same page, you are recorded as stating:

 5             "I knew Milan Lukic of Visegrad by sight.  And I know that he was

 6     neither a member of my brigade nor a soldier."

 7             MR. WEBER:  Could we please have the next page of the B/C/S

 8     original for the witness.

 9        Q.   It continues:  As far as I know he was in prison in Uzice and

10     Belgrade during the time I was brigade commander.  I do not know anything

11     about his activities in the Visegrad area."

12             Can you confirm that this was your testimony about Milan Lukic?

13        A.   Yes, I confirm everything.

14        Q.   In this testimony, you say that you knew Milan Lukic by sight.

15     Where would you see him?

16        A.   Well, specifically, the first time I saw him was in town.  I very

17     rarely went through town because I had no time for that.  I was in a car.

18     The driver pointed out him -- pointed him to me.  It was in town in front

19     of a cafe that he owned.  He was standing in front of it.

20        Q.   Okay.  You said that was the first time.  When was it?

21        A.   Maybe late autumn.  It was quite cold, very cold, foggy, frosty.

22     Could be the end of 1992 or the beginning of 1993.  I can't be more

23     specific than that.

24        Q.   Okay.  How often would you see Milan Lukic?

25        A.   During combat operations in Visegrad, in other words while I was

Page 23734

 1     brigade commander, and after that head of -- chief of the tactical group,

 2     very rarely.  I can't really recall whether I saw him any other time.

 3     I remember that he was wearing not military-issue camouflage fatigues.

 4     It looked more like a police-issue fatigues, white and grey stripes.

 5        Q.   We will come back to this.

 6             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have page 5 of both

 7     versions.

 8        Q.   In the third paragraph on the page before you, this is also in

 9     the upper portion of the page of the translation, you are recorded as

10     stating:

11             "There were two volunteer platoons.  In military operations,

12     these platoons were attached to the intervention company.  I know that

13     they had official designations as our units but perhaps the soldiers had

14     other slang names for them.  I heard some of the names used by the

15     soldiers such as Osvetnik, Garavi Sokak, and that that was what they used

16     to call each other.  However, none of the units had official names like

17     these."

18             Can you confirm that this was your testimony before the high

19     court?

20        A.   Yes, I confirm.

21        Q.   You refer to the Osvetnik and Garavi Sokak in this statement.

22     Isn't it correct that these were groups of Bosnian Serb volunteers who

23     existed in Visegrad that then came under your brigade's command?

24        A.   Well, all -- not all conscripts could be volunteers from the area

25     of Visegrad.  They were mobilised and they cannot by definition be

Page 23735

 1     volunteers if they come from Visegrad, if they are conscripted.

 2        Q.   Okay.  These groups -- individuals from these groups were

 3     conscripted into your brigade, correct?

 4        A.   I don't know whether those were groups or not.  I never dealt

 5     with that problem.  But at any rate, people who did -- who had done their

 6     military service, military term, they were conscripted and mobilised into

 7     the Visegrad brigades and which later on became 2nd Podrinje Light

 8     Infantry Brigade.

 9        Q.   Okay.  We will come back to these groups.  At the end of this

10     page you stated in response to a question concerning whether smaller

11     units from the Visegrad Brigade could carry out operations without you

12     knowing.  You stated:

13             "A unit could not carry out any military operation as a unit

14     without my knowledge."

15             Was this your testimony?

16             MR. IVETIC:  Object, Your Honours.  If he's going to quote the

17     testimony, he's going to have quote the same -- the whole testimony, not

18     take one sentence and stop there and say that's the whole testimony.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I take this to be an invitation for Mr. Weber

20     to give a larger quote than he did.

21             MR. IVETIC:  That's correct.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

23             MR. WEBER:  Well, Your Honour, I was just merely putting the fact

24     to him.  But if you want me to read the question and the answer I can.

25        Q.   The trial record states:

Page 23736

 1             "Asked by the prosecutor whether one of the small units from the

 2     Visegrad Brigade could carry out a military operation without him knowing

 3     about it, the witness replied:

 4             "'A unit could not carry out any military operation as a unit

 5     without my knowledge.'"

 6             Was that what you said?

 7             MR. IVETIC:  And the answer continues.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, something for re-examination, I think.

 9             Unless -- Mr. Weber, I have not read what follows.  If that sheds

10     a totally different light on it, then of course it's a bit narrow-minded

11     to just put a thing where you know that later the other part will be put

12     to the witness.  I have not read it.

13             Mr. Ivetic, you know what the remedy is.

14             And Mr. Weber is reminded that that doesn't make much sense.

15             Again, I haven't read it so I have no opinion about it.

16             MR. WEBER:  Yeah.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's proceed.

18             MR. WEBER:

19        Q.   Sir, that was your testimony before the high court, correct?

20        A.   Yes, yes.  This is how I testified.  I commanded my subordinated

21     units, not platoons which are lower level but the two battalions and the

22     intervention company and staff units.  These were my direct, immediate

23     subordinates, and I commanded over them.

24             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have page 8 of the B/C/S

25     and page 7 of the English translation.

Page 23737

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you do agree that you were asked in that

 2     proceedings about smaller units and you didn't make any distinction

 3     between platoons or battalions?  You agree with that?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not fully understand you, but

 5     what I can tell you is that I commanded directly the subordinate units

 6     which are battalion level and the intervention company which was part of

 7     the brigade by establishment.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I was asking you about the testimony you gave

 9     in those other proceedings, not about what happened on the ground.  But

10     if you don't understand it, let's move on.

11             MR. WEBER:

12        Q.   At the very beginning of this page --

13             MR. WEBER:  This is near the top of the page of the translation

14     also.

15        Q.   -- the trial record records you as stating:

16             "I was also informed about the other abduction which occurred in

17     Sjeverin through the media as well, just as I was about this Strpci

18     case."

19             Can you confirm that this is what you said?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   I'd just like to ask you about your awareness of this other

22     abduction.  Are you aware that the Sjeverin abduction occurred on

23     22 October 1992, and it involved the taking of 16 Muslims from Sandzak,

24     15 men and one woman who were riding a bus, that these individuals were

25     abducted in the village of Mioce [phoen] and taken to Visegrad where they

Page 23738

 1     were never seen again?  Are you aware of these facts?

 2        A.   Yes, I know about this.  I learned from the media about these

 3     facts.

 4        Q.   When you testified before the high court, were you aware that

 5     Milan Lukic was a suspected perpetrator for both the Sjeverin and Strpci

 6     abductions?

 7        A.   Yes.  I learned of that, yes.

 8        Q.   Before I test the truthfulness of some of the statements that

 9     you've confirmed from the high court, I'd also like to ask you:  Are you

10     aware that Milan Lukic was arrested on unrelated gun possession charges

11     four days after the Sjeverin abduction, precise date being 26 October

12     1992?

13        A.   I know that he was arrested and I learned, of course, that the

14     reason for the arrest was possession of weapons.  But I can't remember

15     the time.  I believe it was in November/December 1992, I think.

16        Q.   Okay.  We're going to go through some materials related to this

17     arrest.

18             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 30932 for

19     the witness.  The Prosecution requests that this document not be

20     broadcast to the public.

21        Q.   This is a Republic of Serbia State Security Service Uzice Centre

22     Official Note dated 2 November 1992.  In the first line of this document,

23     it indicates the source of the information is Milan Lukic, the leader of

24     the Osvetnici group.  During your 2002 testimony in Montenegro, this was

25     the group that you said was attached to the intervention company of your

Page 23739

 1     brigade, right?

 2             MR. IVETIC:  Objection, misstates the evidence.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  It does, Mr. Weber.  I think the witness testified

 4     that people were incorporated which were called, although not officially

 5     named, as the Avengers.  But that they were called that, although it

 6     wasn't their official name.

 7             But that -- but --

 8             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I dis --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  If you read --

10             MR. WEBER:  I disagree because I read him his quote from his

11     state court testimony which said:

12             "In military operations these platoons were attached to the

13     intervention company..."

14             And he went on to say that they used slang names for them

15     including the names Osvetnik and --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Which suggests that it's the same --

17             MR. WEBER:  Yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  -- but which has not been established yet.  To that

19     extent it misrepresents.  Although it's on a detail, I'm aware of that.

20     But the more precise your language, the more you'll avoid these kind of

21     objections.

22             MR. WEBER:

23        Q.   This is the group that you referred to in your high court

24     testimony, correct, the Osvetnik?

25        A.   I testified before the high court that the soldiers would call

Page 23740

 1     one another in their argot different names.  Specials, poison, avengers.

 2     These were internal nicknames.  This is what I heard.

 3        Q.   Are you stating that you heard of the group Osvetnik?

 4        A.   I did not hear about the group Avengers, but what I said here and

 5     what I said at -- before the high court, this I maintain.

 6        Q.   Okay.  I'd like to just show you a little bit of -- have you look

 7     at a little bit of information before we move on to another part of this

 8     report.  According to this Official Note, this interview of Milan Lukic

 9     occurred on 26 October 1992 after he was stopped at a check-point in

10     Serbia and found to be in possession of weapons.  Do you see this

11     information on the page before you?

12        A.   Yes.  That's what it says.

13        Q.   Before I move on, I just want to note for the record the weapons

14     because we will come back to them later.  These weapons included a

15     Thompson submachine-gun, a 7.62 millimetre rifle, hand grenades, and a

16     7.65 millimetre pistol, according to the document.

17             MR. WEBER:  Could we please have page 2 of both versions.

18        Q.   In the middle of the page, Milan Lukic is recorded as stating:

19             "I participated in all important military operations in the

20     Visegrad area.  This was a real interethnic war and I came to the front

21     with only one goal:  To protect Serbs and Serbdom in this area.  Since

22     the arrival of Vinko Pandurevic, I was under his command, in legal units

23     of Republika Srpska."

24             Before I move on to another statement, do you see this part of

25     the document before you?

Page 23741

 1        A.   I see it.

 2             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have page 3 of both

 3     versions.

 4        Q.   Toward the top of this page, Milan Lukic is recorded as stating:

 5             "In Visegrad, I found a bad situation, a small numerical

 6     strength, low morale with commander Luka Dragicevic and commander of the

 7     Tactical Group 1, Vinko Pandurevic, who was at the Rudo front together

 8     with Lieutenant-Colonel Mitrasinovic."

 9             Based on these statements, is it correct that Milan Lukic was in

10     fact part of your brigade?

11        A.   No.  He never was.  I never heard of his individual participation

12     in any brigade command activity.  He couldn't have because he was not a

13     member of it.

14        Q.   We are going to go through some more documents.

15             MR. WEBER:  But, Your Honours, at this time the Prosecution

16     tenders 65 ter 30932 into evidence under seal.

17             MR. IVETIC:  Objection, Your Honour.  During the Prosecution case

18     whenever we tried to use statements of third parties not brought as

19     witnesses, Your Honours said you have to bring the persons to attest to

20     the statement.  This is a statement.  Therefore we object.  The

21     Prosecution cannot enter this document for the truth of the matter

22     asserted in this matter.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you make any distinction between different kinds

24     of statements?  If it was a statement taken for the purposes of

25     proceedings before this Tribunal, certainly you're right.  Now, did we

Page 23742

 1     always insist on that if statements were taken for other purposes?  And

 2     if so, could you please assist us in pointing at the decisions we took in

 3     that respect?

 4             MR. IVETIC:  I'd have to ask some time review the record.

 5     I can't recall the transcript page off the top of my head, but I could at

 6     the break look for it.  So if we could then mark for identification and

 7     perhaps resolve the matter and wait for the submissions.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  The objection pending, Madam Registrar, could you

 9     assign a number so that we can mark for identification this document.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30932 receives number P6648, Your

11     Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  And is marked for identification.  Under seal.

13             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 30934, page

14     3 of the B/C/S and page 4 of the English translation.

15        Q.   Sir, coming up before you is the criminal report related to

16     Milan Lukic's arrest on 26 October 1992.  I'm just showing you this

17     document --

18             MR. WEBER:  Excuse me, Your Honours.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could we enlarge it?  I can't see

20     it well.

21             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, just out of an abundance of caution,

22     based on what Ms. Stewart just informed me, if we could not have it

23     broadcast for the time being.

24             Thank you, Ms. Stewart.

25        Q.   I'm just showing you this document before we move on to another

Page 23743

 1     document so you see the serial numbers of the weapons - in particular,

 2     the serial number for the Thompson, which is 91053; and the serial number

 3     for the 7.65 millimetre pistol, which is K315414.  This criminal report

 4     also indicates there were four grenades.  Do you see this information,

 5     before we move on?

 6        A.   I see it.

 7             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution now please have 65 ter 08519,

 8     page 2 in both versions.  And, Your Honours, I plan on tendering this

 9     document with the next one.

10             If I could please have the next page of both versions.  I believe

11     it's the other page of the B/C/S.  I do not believe we have the correct

12     page of the B/C/S on the screen.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I think we have -- or isn't it?  No, perhaps not all

14     of it, but I see number -- let's have a look.  Perhaps it's partly here

15     and partly on the next page.

16             MR. WEBER:  Is this page 1 or page 2 in the B/C/S?

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's have a look.  We have the various --

18             MR. WEBER:  I'm sorry, page 1 in the B/C/S.  If we could have

19     that.  Here we go.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Yes, it's the same form but filled in.  Yes.

21     Please proceed.

22             MR. WEBER:

23        Q.   This is a receipt for weapons received by Milan Lukic dated

24     28 September 1992, almost a month before his arrest.  At the bottom we

25     see that this receipt contains the stamp of the army of the republic of

Page 23744

 1     the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina Visegrad command.  And the

 2     serial numbers of the Thompson and the pistol match the ones in the

 3     criminal report we just looked at.  There is also reference to hand

 4     grenades.  I put it to you that the Visegrad command supplied Milan Lukic

 5     with weapons.

 6        A.   I cannot confirm that position of yours.  But the logistics

 7     person at the command could confirm it or deny.  There is a problem with

 8     the date, though, because it seems to have been changed, the 28th of

 9     September 1992.  I think originally it was a different month, and then it

10     was changed.  This is what I can see at a first glance.  There is nothing

11     else I can say about the document.  I didn't issue it and I was not in

12     command at the time.  I don't know how it came about.  You would need to

13     ask those who had issued those weapons.

14        Q.   Okay.

15        A.   This is a receipt.  I don't think regular soldiers were issued

16     against receipts -- issued with weapons.

17        Q.   Okay.  Let's go through one more document.

18             MR. WEBER:  And actually I'll tender all three together.  Could

19     the Prosecution please have 65 ter 02555 for the witness.

20        Q.   Before you are certificates from you, for Milan Lukic and

21     Dragutin Dragicevic.  According to the top certificate, Milan Lukic was

22     engaged in units of the VRS in Visegrad from 19 May 1992 to the present.

23     The stamp on the documents are the same as the ones we just saw on the

24     weapons receipt.  I put it to you that you have not been truthful about

25     your knowledge of Milan Lukic and his association to your brigade and

Page 23745

 1     these certificates that I've just shown you demonstrate that.  Do you

 2     have any comment?

 3        A.   Of course, I responsibly claim that you are incorrect.  This is a

 4     fake document.  First of all, I didn't sign it, although we can see my

 5     name printed.  But please show me the date when this certificate was

 6     issued, and the place where there should be a date seems to have been

 7     covered.  It's black.

 8        Q.   So, sir, are you denying that these are your initials on the

 9     certificate by the signature line?  I get it, it's type signed.

10        A.   As you could see from all other documents, I never initialled

11     them.  I signed them.  It was the only signature I used and it was on my

12     military ID when I was made 2nd Lieutenant; that is to say, an active

13     officer.  I have always used that signature, including the present.

14     I never initialled it.  This is obviously a fake certificate.  If you

15     show us the date --

16        Q.   Sir, sir --

17        A.   -- you will be able to see for yourself.  Please let me explain,

18     if you want --

19        Q.   Sir, I do have more questions about it.  Are you saying you do

20     not recognise these initials?

21        A.   Of course I don't recognise them and the initials aren't mine.

22     That is not my signature.

23        Q.   Were there occasions when people signed for you?

24        A.   Show me the date of issue for this certificate, and I'll explain

25     it all.

Page 23746

 1        Q.   That wasn't my question, sir.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  You told us that again and again.  If it's a fake

 3     document, what would be the purpose of concealing the date?  Can you

 4     explain that to me?  Because you insist so much on it.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course.  I insist upon it so as

 6     to make it clear for you.  This is poor grammar as well.  Somebody

 7     managed to get ahold of a form and obviously they didn't --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Stop.  I'm stopping you there.  You insist that

 9     looking at the date would clarify issues for us.  First question I put to

10     you:  What is the -- what's the purpose of, if you want to make a fake

11     document, to conceal it?  Or is it a forged document; that is, that it is

12     your signature but that the date has been removed which sheds then light

13     on what you just told us?  Which of the two:  Is it entirely fake or is

14     it changed as far as the date being taken off, taken out?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The document is completely fake.

16     The date is important because it needs to be compared with the stamp

17     because the stamp changed.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  If I indicate that you should stop speaking because

19     I have the next question.  I have now an answer to my first question.

20     You say it's a completely fake document.  And then my question is:  What

21     is the purpose, if you create a fake document, to conceal a date?

22     I would put -- on such a totally fake document, I would put on it the

23     date which is most convenient to me.  Could you tell us what the purpose

24     of erasure of the date is?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The purpose is obvious.  These two

Page 23747

 1     appeared before a court, both.  This document was created for the court

 2     so as to show before the court that they belonged to the VRS, whereas

 3     they did not.  They were both sentenced in Belgrade.  Let alone the fact

 4     that this was not filled out in a soldierly way.

 5             First of all, we did not have a reconnaissance sabotage platoon

 6     but we had a sabotage reconnaissance platoon.  Next --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  That goes beyond my question.  My question was what

 8     was the purpose of erasing the date.  I've received an answer to that

 9     question.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I have a question.

11             Mr. Dragicevic, could you please tell us to what institution the

12     stamp on this original belongs?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As you can see, on the stamp, this

14     is the first stamp that was used, one can clearly see it reads:  "The

15     Army of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina."  Later on, we became

16     the Army of Republika Srpska and the stamp was changed.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

19             MR. WEBER:

20        Q.   Just on the notion of the stamp, that would have been the stamp

21     that would have been used prior to that change, correct?

22        A.   Yes.  While that was the case, we used this stamp and this kind

23     of template.  But this form, this kind of certificates, could not have

24     been issued for that purpose.  Its purpose was different.  It served to

25     acknowledge that members of the army were in receipt of assistance, say,

Page 23748

 1     from the Red Cross or another organisation.

 2        Q.   In response to Judge Orie's question, you said this document was

 3     created for the court so as to show before the court that they belonged

 4     to the VRS.  How do you know that?

 5        A.   I testified twice at the district court in Belgrade and I know of

 6     this document.  These two appeared before the court and were sentenced,

 7     and it's quite clear that this kind of form was allegedly issued to them

 8     at the relevant time.  It begs no further clarification.  If there was a

 9     date, everything would be clear.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  It's therefore your conclusion that it must have

11     been produced for court purposes.  Is that how I have to understand your

12     testimony?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  I'm completely convinced,

14     basically.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

16             MR. WEBER:

17        Q.   Are you aware that the Uzice district court terminated the

18     detention of Milan Lukic on 4 November 1992 because evidence was

19     presented which indicated that Milan Lukic and the co-accused

20     Dragutin Dragicevic were members of the Visegrad Brigade of the Army of

21     Republika Srpska?  Are you aware of that?

22        A.   I'm not aware of it.  Had he been a member of the army, we would

23     have had that piece of information.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers]

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] However, he had not been and we

Page 23749

 1     never had that information.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please stop talking when I give you a

 3     clear sign to do so?  You've answered the question, you're not aware of

 4     it.  We are not seeking, unless specifically asked for that, your further

 5     elaborations.  You're not aware of it.  That answers the question.

 6             Mr. Weber.

 7             MR. WEBER:

 8        Q.   I'm simply putting this to you, that you -- actually, your

 9     brigade issued this certificate for these individuals to secure their

10     release back in late October, early November 1992.  Do you have any other


12        A.   That is absolutely untrue.  It did not take place with my

13     knowledge.  I was even threatened with murder by the relatives of this

14     Milan Lukic because they wanted me to issue a certificate of -- like

15     that, and risking my life, I refused.  He had not been mobilised, he was

16     not a soldier, and not a member of the brigade.  My life was under threat

17     directly.  I believe many others feared him, and that out of fear they

18     may have been prone to issue fake certificates, although I'm not sure.

19     That is my assumption.

20        Q.   Okay.  You've been claiming up till now that you did not have

21     much knowledge, and then you just said:  "I was even threatened with

22     murder by the relatives of this Milan Lukic because they wanted me to

23     issue a certificate...," when did this happen?

24        A.   It happened when he was in the Uzice prison, during that time.

25     Their explanation was that if he were to receive an army certificate, it

Page 23750

 1     would be a mitigating circumstance because he had certain weapons

 2     illegally and that was what he was charged with.

 3             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, I'm going to move on to some additional

 4     materials somewhat related to the topic.  I can tender the three

 5     documents now or actually tender them with another two that I'm going to

 6     be using.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps you then wait.

 8             Could you -- Mr. Weber, could you shed a bit more light on the

 9     provenance of these documents?

10             MR. WEBER:  I can if we can do that -- [Overlapping speakers].

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Because I'm not asking you to do it now but

12     before the Chamber will further consider admission.

13             MR. WEBER:  Sure.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

15             MR. WEBER:  Actually, Your Honour, then could we have them all

16     marked for identification.  I believe with the other MFI, if we can just

17     pool these together and then discuss them all at once.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we could do so.

19             Mr. Ivetic, I see you are apparently in agreement.

20             MR. WEBER:  And I can read the 65 ter numbers if you'd like.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you could do that, yes.

22             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution would be tendering 65 ter numbers

23     30934, 08519, and 039 -- excuse me --

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  02555.

25             MR. WEBER:  02555.  Thank you, Your Honours.

Page 23751

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30934 receives number P6649.

 3     Document 08519 receives number P6650.  And Document 02555 receives number

 4     P6651, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  All three marked for identification, under seal.

 6     Only the first one under seal, that is P6649.  The others public

 7     documents.

 8             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honours.  I believe we are at a time

 9     for a break.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  We are.

11             Witness, we take a break of 20 minutes.  You may follow the

12     usher, and we'd like to see you back at 10 minutes past 12.00.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Certainly.  Thank you.

14                           [The witness stands down]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at 10 minutes past 12.00.

16                           --- Recess taken at 11.51 a.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 12.12 p.m.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

19             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I just wanted to alert the Chamber and

20     the parties that I might not use the full day today.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

22             MR. WEBER:  I might not need the last session.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I take it that Mr. Ivetic may need some time for

24     re-examination.

25             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honours.  At this stage probably 15

Page 23752

 1     minutes.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  So therefore there is a fair chance that we

 3     would conclude the testimony of this witness today, which is appreciated.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  And I guess while we're waiting, Your Honours, I can

 5     direct Your Honours to transcript page 18652 through 18654 in relation to

 6     a non-ICTY statement of an out of court person, 1D1370, which was denied

 7     admission in relation to the Prosecution case in chief.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's have a look.

 9                           [The witness takes the stand]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, you may proceed.

11             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 30936.

12        Q.   This is a report from the 2nd Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade

13     dated 22 February 1993, from a deputy security commander,

14     Captain Vucelja.  At this time, were you the commander of this brigade?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   This report indicates that there are no paramilitary formations

17     or groups in the brigade but there are groups under the brigade command

18     including the Osvetnik.  After having seen this document, do you agree

19     that the groups that are mentioned here were respecting your brigade's

20     command?

21        A.   I think I've already explained.  Soldiers addressed each other

22     with these names that meant something to them, but among our formations

23     there were no groups called this.  There were platoons, companies, and

24     later battalions, when the establishment was changed.  It could only have

25     been the 1st Platoon of the 1st Company or the 1st Company of the

Page 23753

 1     1st Battalion and so on.  As for the different names, they used all sorts

 2     of names.

 3        Q.   These names that these individuals used, these are the names

 4     that -- the group names that they used, right?

 5        A.   I can't confirm that.  I don't know if they called each other

 6     those names individually or more of them accepted such nicknames.

 7     I really never bothered.

 8        Q.   I put it to you that this document shows -- also shows that

 9     Milan Lukic's group, the Osvetnik, were respecting your brigade's

10     command.  Do you have any comment?

11             MR. IVETIC:  Objection, states facts not in evidence.

12             MR. WEBER:  Disagree, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  One second, please.  What is not in evidence?

14             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, if we have a discussion about this --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Oh, is it about the document not being in evidence

16     yet?  What -- what -- I do not fully understand your objection, Mr.

17     Ivetic.

18             MR. IVETIC:  No.  The --

19             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, for this discussion the --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I don't know whether it's -- if it's -- could

21     you take off your ear-phones for a second.

22             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I believe the witness said --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  No, the witness said he knows some English.  Then

24     could the leave the courtroom for a second and to remain standby.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said I don't speak English.

Page 23754

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Very limited from what I understand but

 2     nevertheless.  Even in the English language, some issues might be raised

 3     which could be overheard.

 4                           [The witness stands down]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  What's not in evidence, Mr. Ivetic?

 6             MR. IVETIC:  I don't believe it's in evidence -- and I just lost

 7     the question.

 8             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, maybe I can assist --

 9             MR. IVETIC:  Milan Lukic's group.

10             MR. WEBER:  In the Serbian DB report that we looked at, it

11     started that Milan Lukic was leader of the group named the Osvetnik, so

12     that is the basis of this.  The witness has disagreed with it.  I'm going

13     through this line of cross-examination to test his credibility, and I'm

14     confronting him - which is the way I phrased my question, that I put it

15     to you - and I'm putting the proposition to him.  I believe this is

16     perfectly proper.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Ivetic, if you put something to a witness

18     as a proposition then it doesn't need to be in evidence.  As a matter of

19     fact, you seek that to become evidence, isn't it?

20             MR. IVETIC:  But it doesn't say "I put it to you Milan Lukic...,"

21     it says "I put it to you that this document shows," this document being

22     the one on the screen now.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

24             MR. IVETIC:  So we're mixing apples and pears.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  It's the proposition that this document is

Page 23755

 1     indicative for what Mr. Weber says.  Now, whether he's asking for a

 2     conclusion on the document, that's a different matter, would perhaps be a

 3     different objection, but Mr. Weber puts that to the witness.  This

 4     document shows that.  It's not in evidence.  It's clear, what he seeks.

 5     As a matter of fact, he seeks the witness to draw conclusions which --

 6             MR. IVETIC:  But this document does not mention Milan Lukic.

 7     That's my point.  They're trying to.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  No, doesn't need to do that.  That's because it's

 9     about conclusions.

10             MR. IVETIC:  Okay.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  And that -- could the witness be escorted back into

12     the courtroom.  It may go without saying but the objection is denied.

13                           [The witness takes the stand]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, perhaps you again put to the witness what

15     you wanted to put to him.

16             MR. WEBER:

17        Q.   Sir, drawing your attention back to the document, I put it to you

18     that this document further shows that Milan Lukic's group, the Osvetnik,

19     were respecting your brigade's command.  Do you have any comment?

20        A.   Of course I can.  It says here that those names could bring about

21     an association or are reminiscent of existence of paramilitary groups.

22     I also said that they called each other different names but group -- as a

23     group could not have existed.  There are 1st Detachment, 1st Platoon,

24     1st Company, 1st Battalion, et cetera, et cetera.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you are -- the one who reports here uses

Page 23756

 1     the expression "group," isn't it?  All these groups.  So he refers to

 2     them as groups.  Have you any comment on that?  And I see that in the

 3     original also the word "grupa" is used.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He used that term but there were no

 5     other groups.  There are detachments, which are part of a platoon,

 6     platoon is a part of a company.  How large were those groups?  I don't

 7     know.  But there were no groups as groups.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  We've heard your explanation.

 9             Please move on, Mr. Weber.

10             MR. WEBER:

11        Q.   In the last answer you just used a pronoun, you said "he."  Who

12     are you referring to?

13        A.   Whoever signed this document.

14             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution tenders 3096 -- 30936 into evidence.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before we do that, I have one or two questions.

16             Witness, do you know Captain Veselin Vucija?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course I know him.  He was, as

18     it's stated here, assistant security -- or deputy security commander.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Of which unit?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 2nd Podrinje Light Infantry

21     Brigade.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are you able to tell us to what institution the

23     stamp there on the original belongs to?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not very legible.  I can't

25     make out anything except to establish that there is a rubber stamp.

Page 23757

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is it any better now?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I can make out command of the

 3     2nd Podrinje and the rest is illegible, but it's evident that this would

 4     be a command of the 2nd Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I thank you very much.

 6             Yes, Mr. Weber.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  You tendered the document.  I think we marked them

 8     for identification.  Or is this a new series which is not --

 9             MR. WEBER:  This is new series [Overlapping speakers].

10             MR. IVETIC:  No objection.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  No objection to this one.

12             Madam Registrar, the number would be?

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30936 receives number P6652, Your

14     Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  P6652 is admitted.

16             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 30933, page 1 of

17     the original and page 2 of the translation.  The Prosecution asks that

18     this document not be broadcast to the public.

19        Q.   Sir, before you is another Serbian DB official note from the

20     Uzice centre.  This one is dated 4 March 1993 and it relates to the

21     Strpci abduction on 27 February 1993.  Directing your attention to the

22     bottom of the page before you --

23             MR. WEBER:  Which I believe is on the next page of the

24     translation.  I think we've gone one page too far in the translation.

25     There we are.

Page 23758

 1        Q.   -- there is a reference to -- there is actually multiple

 2     references to Boban Indjic who is described as the leader of the

 3     Garavi Sokak.  And there is also references to a truck that was used or

 4     is associated with the Strpci train abduction.  Do you see this

 5     information?

 6        A.   I can see it, yes.

 7        Q.   Is it correct that the Boban Indjic that is referred to here is

 8     the one that you referred to in your previous high court testimony as

 9     being a part of your infantry -- intervention company?

10        A.   Yes.  He was commander of the intervention company.

11             MR. WEBER:  Could we please have the next page in the B/C/S for

12     the witness before I ask my next question.

13        Q.   Sir, I just wanted you to see the complete information.  On this

14     page of the report at the top, it indicates that a policeman from Rudo

15     saw the truck proceeding along the route from Strpci after the abduction

16     of the passengers on the train.  According to this report, the policeman

17     recognised Indjic as one of the people in the truck.  Do you see this

18     information?

19        A.   If you could please specify whether it's towards the top or

20     bottom or?

21        Q.   It should be at the very top of the page before you.

22        A.   On the next page?  I have page 2 here.

23        Q.   I'll refrain from stating the name of the individual, and if you

24     could do the same --

25        A.   Yes, yes.

Page 23759

 1        Q.   -- but if see a reference to a policeman from Rudo --

 2        A.   Yes, I can see it now, yes.  Thank you.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Have you read that first paragraph on this page?

 4        A.   Well, no.  I looked for those family names.  Am I supposed to

 5     read it out loud.

 6        Q.   Yes, sir.  I just want to give you an opportunity to read

 7     the paragraph before I ask you a question.  The very top paragraph.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  There is no need to read it out loud but just to

 9     familiarise yourself with the names in there.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's clear, yes, thank you.  I've

11     read it.

12             MR. WEBER:

13        Q.   Sir, my question to you based on this information is simple.

14     I put it to you that the men from your brigade participated in the Strpci

15     abduction on the 27th of February 1993, based on this information.  Do

16     you have any comment?

17        A.   According to this information, it seems to be so, judging by the

18     name.  And source of information is a policeman from Rudo.  I'm not sure

19     whether he would be the right person to be able to recognise anybody but

20     I'm not going to dwell on that.  But, however, I maintain that the

21     brigade had nothing to do with this incident or abduction in Strpci,

22     neither did it have such a crazy idea, neither did it have any plan, nor

23     did it use any of its units for such an act.  This would be an interstate

24     problem and no sane commander would really want to go into it.

25        Q.   You just made a bunch of denials.  Did you personally investigate

Page 23760

 1     whether or not men from your intervention company were involved in the

 2     Strpci abduction?

 3        A.   No.  I never received that kind of information before the trial,

 4     before the high court in Bijelo Polje.  Only then, or sometime earlier

 5     from the press, I'd learned that one of the members of the brigade, a

 6     volunteer by the family name of Stojisavljevic, had been arrested

 7     initially reportedly because of smuggling, and then later on I found out

 8     that this was -- the reason was Strpci.  But this was after the war.

 9     Only then did I learn that some members of the Visegrad Brigade had taken

10     part in such crime.  By that time, I was not in a position to take any

11     action because the brigade had ceased to exist and I had left that

12     position.

13             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution tenders 30933 into evidence at this

14     time under seal.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30933 receives number P6653, Your

17     Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  P6653 is admitted.

19             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  As under seal, yes.

21             MR. WEBER:  Thank you.  Could the Prosecution please have

22     65 ter 02556.  Okay.

23        Q.   This is a 2nd Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade command report

24     dated 21 October 1993 from a Major Pajevic.  Is it correct that you were

25     the Chief of Staff of the Visegrad tactical group at this time?  You were

Page 23761

 1     no longer in this brigade specifically?

 2        A.   Yes, that's correct.  Let me point out one obvious --

 3        Q.   Sir, sir, I'm going to ask you about the document.  If you could

 4     please wait.

 5        A.   [Overlapping speakers]

 6        Q.   Sir, sir --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, Witness, you are here to answer questions.

 8     If there is anything you would like to add to that, you may ask for my

 9     permission to do so.  So then you address me and you just do not continue

10     to speak out what you had on your mind.  Is that clear to you?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

13             MR. WEBER:

14        Q.   Sir, let's see if we address what's on your mind.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  The witness would like address me --

16             MR. WEBER:  Okay.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  -- and I gave him an opportunity to do so.  What is

18     there you want to address at this moment?  And I add to that which cannot

19     wait until later.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But it is important.  If you take a

21     closer look, you see that --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no, no.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- he was a member of the brigade

24     from -- well, the brigade did not exist at the time.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, witness, witness, you had asked for

Page 23762

 1     permission, that is what.  And I asked you what is there what could not

 2     be said at the end.  Take a pencil, make it a little note if you want to,

 3     and at the end of your testimony you'll have an opportunity, if not

 4     already covered by the re-examination, and you'll be re-examined, and

 5     then you'll have an opportunity at the end to add anything which is

 6     relevant in relation to the questions that were put to you.  Please

 7     proceed, Mr. Weber.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             MR. WEBER:

10        Q.   Was the 2nd Podrinje Brigade part of the Visegrad tactical group?

11        A.   Yes, after the Visegrad tactical group had been formed.  But let

12     me note that the tactical group is a temporary formation, the

13     Visegrad Brigade or rather 2nd Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade was part

14     of the Drina Corps.

15        Q.   I appreciate what you're saying.  My next question would be:  In

16     October 1993, was the Visegrad -- was the 2nd Podrinje Brigade part of

17     the Visegrad tactical group?  Was the Visegrad TG in existence at that

18     time?

19        A.   Yes, the TG Visegrad did exist, but its competences lie primarily

20     in coordinating combat operation --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  No one asked you about the competences.  In the

22     answer to your previous questions you added already something Mr. Weber

23     was about to ask you.  Here, whether Mr. Weber is interested in

24     competences, "yes" or "no," wait for the next question which you may now

25     put to the witness, Mr. Weber.

Page 23763

 1             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 2        Q.   Sir, I'm going to go through each part of this report with you.

 3     The first sentence of this report indicates that Milan Lukic's dad asked

 4     for a certificate confirming his participation in the brigade.  Were you

 5     aware of this?  That on the 21st of October 1993, Milan Lukic's dad asked

 6     for this certificate?

 7        A.   I don't know.  By that time, I'd transferred to the staff of the

 8     tactical group.  I was chief of staff.  This document is something that

 9     Vojko Pajevic drafted and he can explain everything about that.  At that

10     time I was not part of the 2nd Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade.  I held

11     no post there.  I was at the tactical group Visegrad.

12        Q.   Do I understand your simple answer then is you were not aware of

13     Milan Lukic's asking -- father asking for a certificate on this date?

14        A.   That's correct.

15        Q.   This report continues to state that Milan Lukic joined the

16     brigade as a volunteer on 26 April 1992 and is still a member of it.

17     However, he was in prison at the time of this report.  Do you know what

18     Milan Lukic was in custody for at this time?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   In your earlier high court testimony, you said you were aware

21     that Milan Lukic was in custody.  How did you know that?

22        A.   I said that I was aware about November and December 1992.  Of

23     course, I heard later that he was detained on several occasions, but I

24     didn't know when or on what grounds.  I knew about his detention in Uzice

25     because I was directly in a way involved because I received threats

Page 23764

 1     corroborated by weapons and being asked to give a certificate about his

 2     membership in the brigade but he was not a member.  He was not part of

 3     any platoon.  And this is the basic document which testifies to

 4     somebody's membership in a brigade.

 5        Q.   This document then indicates that Milan Lukic made a contribution

 6     in liberating Visegrad, and "the army grew to like him for being who he

 7     was.  And they request his release so he could lead his company again."

 8     Based on this document from your former brigade that you were commander

 9     of, is it correct that you have not provided truthful testimony

10     concerning your brigade's relationship with Milan Lukic?

11        A.   No.  In no way could this be said, particularly because I was

12     personally exposed to threats of death.  This document in my opinion

13     serves a purpose concerning Lukic but he was never a member of the

14     brigade and by the same token he could not have been a commander of a

15     company in that same brigade.

16        Q.   Did you ever report or communicate the threats you received to

17     your superiors?

18        A.   No, because a security organ was present at the time and he may

19     have informed the station -- the public security station because those

20     people were civilians, those who threatened me were civilians, not

21     military personnel.

22        Q.   Did your -- did you ever take any action, your brigade, to remove

23     these civilians or individuals from your zone of responsibility, that

24     were threatening you?

25        A.   No.  That was within the purview of security organs or the

Page 23765

 1     police.  But frankly speaking, I did not pay much attention to that.

 2     There were so many other duties concerning combat operations that it

 3     never crossed my mind.  I suppose that I should have done something but

 4     I simply did not have the time for that, except for carrying out my basic

 5     duties and missions.

 6             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, the Prosecution tenders 65 ter 2556 into

 7     evidence.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  No objection.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.

10             Madam Registrar.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 2556 receives number P6654, Your

12     Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

14             MR. WEBER:

15        Q.   I want to change topics now.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we do so --

17             MR. WEBER:  Okay.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  -- can we perhaps then briefly deal with the earlier

19     objection that is about the admission of the statement given before the

20     Court.

21             Mr. Ivetic, you referred us to certain transcript pages and in

22     relation to a certain document.  Isn't it true that the situation there

23     was that portions of that statement were read to the witness and that the

24     person who had given the statement was on the list of witnesses to be

25     called and that under those circumstances, where the Defence said that it

Page 23766

 1     was sufficient to have read out the relevant portions of the statement,

 2     the remainder of it to be irrelevant, that -- and also in view of the

 3     fact that the person who gave the statement would be called as a witness

 4     later on, that under those circumstances, you objected to admission,

 5     which leads me -- first of all, is that your recollection as well?

 6             MR. IVETIC:  Unfortunately, it's not a witness I dealt with nor

 7     was I in the courtroom for that one.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  But I take it that if you take me to the transcript

 9     pages --

10             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  -- that you have read them yourself?

12             MR. IVETIC:  I have read them.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

14             MR. IVETIC:  And my recollection is that at that time we did not

15     have a witness list.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  But was it announced that that person would be

17     called as a witness?

18             MR. IVETIC:  I believe --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  I mean, I read that pretty clearly --

20             MR. IVETIC:  -- that my colleague said -- my colleague said

21     perhaps he'll be a witness or probably he'll be a witness, yes.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  So there was a fair chance that he would be

23     called as a witness.

24             Now, Mr. Weber, you've read the relevant portions of the

25     statement before the Court.

Page 23767

 1             MR. WEBER:  No, Your Honour.  I mean if you do require

 2     submissions I would like to have an opportunity to actually look at the

 3     stuff associated with this.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then we will further consider it.  But you

 5     know at least the reference Mr. Lukic made.  Let me see.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  I believe there were two inferences -- yeah.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  "I will probably bring that witness to our case,"

 8     that's probability, but at least in that expectation and the relevant

 9     portions to have been read out to the witness, that altogether led to a

10     denial of the objection.  That's the circumstances.

11             Mr. Weber, perhaps you consider that and see whether that would

12     need you to read other portions of the statement to the witness.  I do

13     not know.

14             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I'll fully respond at a time where I'm

15     fully informed.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But please keep this in the back of your mind

17     in continuation of your cross-examination.  Please proceed.

18             MR. WEBER:  Yes.

19             Your Honour, just for the record, though, we do believe that the

20     document itself is properly admissible and does not constitute a

21     statement that in the fact of what counsel is describing.  So I'll fully

22     respond later, but just --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  We'll later hear them from you.  For the time

24     being, please proceed with as you said you would tackle a new area.

25             MR. WEBER:  Yes.

Page 23768

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 2             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3             Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P4439.

 4        Q.   Sir, coming up before you is the SRK combat readiness report

 5     dated 23 June 1994, at the bottom, and I believe the date 29 June 1994

 6     appears at the top.  I know this document is from before your time in the

 7     corps command, but I want to go through a few portions of it to see what

 8     you're aware of before you became a commander.

 9             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have page 2 of both

10     versions.

11        Q.   This combat readiness reports starts with an introduction by the

12     SRK commander.  In June of 1994, were you aware that this was Stanislav

13     Galic?

14        A.   I knew about this information that he was a commander of the

15     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, but I never knew him personally.

16        Q.   Okay.  I want to go through some of what is said here.  In the

17     second paragraph, that's before you, the report states:

18             "Looking back on the past 27 months, I would say that not one day

19     had gone by without combat (either defence or in attack) and measures

20     being taken to control the territory and secure the facilities.  As far

21     as the implementation of the tasks set for us in the Main Staff VRS,

22     Directives 1 through 6, this corps has executed all its tasks with a

23     varying degree of success."

24             Before I read the next paragraph, I just want to ask you:  As a

25     commanding officer, were you aware of Directives 1 through 6?

Page 23769

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   Okay.  The next paragraph starts:  "The following can be viewed

 3     as success.  The unwavering blockade of the Muslim part of Sarajevo and

 4     the prevention of frequent attempts of the de-blockading both from within

 5     the city out and from outside the city in."

 6             And then there is further details about operations.  Were you

 7     aware of this information prior to becoming an assistant commander in the

 8     SRK?

 9        A.   Do you have in mind all of this?  I wasn't aware of it.  I said

10     so.

11        Q.   Okay.  Let's ask for a very simple thing.  Were you aware that

12     there was an unwavering blockade of the Muslim part of Sarajevo before

13     you became a member of the SRK?

14        A.   No.  I knew that the SRK blocked the 1st Corps of the ABiH, which

15     used most of Sarajevo as its base to engage the SRK.  That is true.

16        Q.   Are you saying that you first learned this when you joined the

17     SRK or you knew this before you became an assistant commander in the SRK?

18        A.   When I became assistant commander, then I learned of it, of

19     course, and I could see it myself because I went in the field to find out

20     the truth.  I saw it personally.

21        Q.   Just while we're on this page, if you could just read it and let

22     me know if you know anything about the -- if you knew anything about the

23     operations that are mentioned in this paragraph.  Just "yes" or "no."

24        A.   I knew.  I had information about these operations, but as the

25     officer.  I think I was still in Visegrad at the time.

Page 23770

 1        Q.   In fact, operation Lukavac 93 which is mentioned here involved

 2     the Drina Corps, correct?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   You participated in this operation?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   This was an offensive operation, correct?  It sought to liberate

 7     territory.

 8        A.   The goal was to liberate Serb areas which had been occupied.  In

 9     order to conduct the operation, we needed to traverse certain parts that

10     were controlled by the ABiH.

11        Q.   You do not mention this operation in your statement, correct?

12        A.   I don't think so.

13             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have page 7 of the B/C/S

14     and page 10 of the English translation?

15             Your Honours, and just to inform the Court, I believe that there

16     is a translation error in the portion that I'll be reading.  The word

17     "blokadi" has been translated as "siege," but I believe it should be

18     "blockade."  I just wanted to give everyone a heads-up on that.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  As always, the parties' knowledge of what the

20     translation should have been, that may be a reason for you to resubmit

21     it --

22             MR. WEBER:  Of course.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  -- to CLSS and not to bring your own interpretation.

24             MR. WEBER:  Yes.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  That's what I always tell all parties.  If there's

Page 23771

 1     any doubt it should be verified by and if need be corrected by CLSS.

 2             MR. WEBER:  And we are doing --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  But already I do understand for present purposes

 4     that you think that there may be a mistake.

 5             MR. WEBER:  Yes.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  And that we therefore should carefully look at the

 7     original language.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

10        Q.   Before you is the part of the combat analysis where the SRK

11     reports on its own situation.  I'd like to direct your attention to the

12     bottom portion of the page before you which is also towards the bottom in

13     the translation.  The paragraph states:

14             "What we cannot present through numbers and which has a crucial

15     effect on the situation in the units are the assessments showing the

16     morale of units to still be at the satisfactory level which is also

17     confirmed through facts that Sarajevo is successfully held under...," and

18     this is the word, in the translation it says "siege," in the B/C/S I

19     believe the word is "blokadi," "... and all of the more important tasks

20     were carried out successfully."

21             When you became an assistant commander in the SRK, did you assess

22     the morale of the soldiers in the SRK in a similar way as this?  Which is

23     based on whether or not -- which appears to be based on whether or not

24     they successfully held Sarajevo under blockade?

25        A.   Of course I carried out assessments, to the extent possible.

Page 23772

 1     I was aware that the war had been underway for over three years by the

 2     time I reached the SRK, and that the units and commands encountered

 3     numerous problems.  Because of its duration it had a significant impact

 4     on the personnel.  However, through work conducted by assistant commander

 5     for morale, we tried and succeeded, as confirmed by our victory in their

 6     latest offensive, to --

 7        Q.   Sir --

 8        A.   -- convince the people that despite those problems we had to

 9     soldier on, and we succeeded.

10        Q.   Sir, if I can just interrupt you, in your assessments, did you

11     assess the morale of SRK members based on whether they successfully held

12     Sarajevo under blockade?

13        A.   No.  It was whether they were successful in implementing their

14     combat tasks.

15        Q.   Yes.  And if their combat tasks included keeping Sarajevo held

16     under blockade that would have been one of those tasks, right?

17        A.   Holding the 1st Corps of the ABiH under blockade was one of the

18     predominant tasks of the SRK.  It was not to hold Sarajevo under

19     blockade, because a part of Sarajevo was under our control.

20             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P6523 for

21     the witness.

22        Q.   Before you is an order with conclusions and tasks dated 1 April

23     1994 from General Galic.  In the beginning paragraph of the document,

24     there is reference to Operation Zvijezda, excuse me if I pronounce it,

25     94, which the SRK was taking part in with the Herzegovina Corps and the

Page 23773

 1     Drina Corps.  Did you participate in this operation?

 2        A.   I think I did, but I'm not sure what is understood by Star 94?

 3     Yes, yes, I did take part.

 4        Q.   Okay.  If we could then go down to the second paragraph, there is

 5     a reference to forces and combat equipment which "on the request and per

 6     agreement of the Chief of Staff and commander of Visegrad TG."  You were

 7     the Chief of Staff of the Visegrad tactical group at this time, am I

 8     right?

 9        A.   I can't find it.  Which paragraph did you say?

10        Q.   It's the second paragraph of the document before -- above the

11     word "tasks."

12        A.   No.  This had to do with the Chief of Staff of the corps and his

13     agreement with the Visegrad tactical group commander.  I didn't take part

14     in that agreement.

15        Q.   Do you not see the words "Chief of Staff" and "commander of

16     Visegrad tactical group," Visegrad grad TG?

17        A.   I see it, but as the Chief of Staff it was up to me only to

18     implement what the TG commander ordered me to do so.  This obviously

19     concerns the Chief of Staff of the SRK and the commander of the Visegrad

20     TG.

21        Q.   Okay.  Well my question was really simple.  It was were you the

22     Chief of Staff of the Visegrad TG at this time?  The document is dated

23     1 April 1994.

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Under the heading of the document, in the subject line, it

Page 23774

 1     indicates that these are conclusions and tasks from a briefing at SRK

 2     command on 31 March 1994.  Did you attend this briefing?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   Did you attend any briefings at the SRK command before you --

 5     before you joined the SRK?

 6        A.   No, never.  I never attended it, and I was never present at any

 7     meeting.

 8        Q.   The tactical group commander was Dragisa Masal correct?

 9        A.   Yes, Colonel Dragisa Masal.

10        Q.   And it says my reference wasn't complete.  He was the commander

11     of the Visegrad tactical group?

12        A.   Precisely.

13        Q.   Would he attend meetings at the SRK command related to joint

14     operations between the Drina Corps and the SRK?

15        A.   I don't know that.  But what we just read states that it was as

16     per agreement and request as arranged between the Visegrad TG commander

17     and the Chief of Staff of the SRK.  I don't know where they reached that

18     arrangement, whether they were somewhere in the field or in Sarajevo.

19     I was not present.

20        Q.   Okay.

21             MR. WEBER:  If we could go to page 2 of the English translation.

22        Q.   Under item 8, it states:

23             "Fortify positions around Sarajevo by erecting wire and concrete

24     barriers which would in turn strengthen the belief that they really are

25     blocked (in a camp)."

Page 23775

 1             Were you aware of these tasks which came from the SRK commander

 2     at that time when you joined later that year, in 1994?  Did you become

 3     aware of this?

 4        A.   No, but "in a camp" is in quotation marks indicating that it

 5     wasn't a camp, at least that's what our grammar dictates.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Well, a more general question:  Do you think that people

 7     kept inside wire and concrete barriers under the conditions where they

 8     would feel like they were really being blocked would feel like they were

 9     under siege?

10        A.   I don't understand.  What people?

11        Q.   Well, if there were positions that were fortified around Sarajevo

12     by erecting wire and concrete barriers which would strengthen the belief

13     that they are really blocked, wouldn't this create a feeling that people

14     were under siege by the SRK?  Do you agree with that?

15        A.   I'm asking you what people you have in mind?  Who was supposed to

16     feel that way?

17        Q.   Those people inside the barriers.  Whomever they are.

18        A.   In my view, these are actions and procedures aimed at persuading

19     the enemy side, i.e. members of the 1st Corps of the ABiH, that they are

20     under blockade.  It is obvious and can be seen from here that no complete

21     blockade was possible.  It was just to create that impression with the

22     enemy.  That is the gist of it.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I also ask -- yes.  Could I ask one question.

24     You emphasised that "in a camp" is in quotation marks and you explained

25     that this means in your language that they were not in a camp, but I read

Page 23776

 1     that - and please correct me when you're language dictates otherwise -

 2     that as if they were in a camp, that that is what it means although not

 3     really being in a camp.  That is how I understood it in the English

 4     translation.  If you have any comment on it, please give it.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You are perfectly right.  That was

 6     the point, to create the impression of.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We have heard sufficient evidence about

 8     Sarajevo to know that it's not strictly a camp.

 9             Please proceed.

10             Yes, yes, Judge Moloto may have one question.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sir, you earlier said that this surrounding was

12     surrounding the 1st Corps of the ABiH, but this paragraph 8 here says

13     fortify positions around Sarajevo, and this is what Mr. Weber has been

14     putting to you, that the surrounding was around Sarajevo, not just around

15     the 1st Corps of the ABiH.  Do you have any comment?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course, that's what it reads.

17     But in soldierly parlance, we never discuss civilians.  When we say

18     Sarajevo, we have in mind the units of the enemy placed in Sarajevo.

19     There is much confusion and imprecision but it's always meant the enemy

20     side, the enemy forces; i.e., armed units and personnel.  It does not

21     include civilians.  When we refer to personnel, we mean enemy soldiers,

22     not the inhabitants.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We have heard evidence to the effect that units of

24     the ABiH Army were within the civilian population of Sarajevo.  How did

25     you surround them and exclude surrounding the civilians?

Page 23777

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my statement, I say that the

 2     position of Serb settlements had been in existence for many centuries

 3     before the war.  They were naturally located around the urban part of

 4     Sarajevo.  Of course, there were Serbs in Sarajevo itself as well.  When

 5     the war broke out, the inhabitants organised themselves to provide

 6     defence but it was around Sarajevo.  That's where their homes were,

 7     that's where they lived.  No one brought them in and no one came from

 8     elsewhere to surround Sarajevo.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I didn't suggest that they were brought in.  I

10     said how did you obviate surrounding civilians when you surrounded the

11     army?  I don't think what you said answers my question, but if you don't

12     have an answer to my question, just say so.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course I have an answer.  Those

14     who held their own civilians captive were supposed to free them rather

15     than using them as a shield.  They used their own people, their

16     civilians, in the town itself as a shield in front of the forces of the

17     1st Corps.  They are responsible for the plight of civilians in Sarajevo

18     and not those who fought the 1st Corps.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  You're not answering my

20     question.

21             You may proceed.

22             MR. WEBER:  If I could just ask one question before we --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  One question, Mr. Weber.

24             MR. WEBER:

25        Q.   Sir, is what you've just been answering to Judge Moloto basically

Page 23778

 1     what you put out in your propaganda during the war?

 2        A.   No.  That's the truth.  What the gentleman asked me, it is

 3     mission impossible.  How could anyone do that?  To select in the city

 4     itself?  Make a distinction between civilians and soldiers?

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  We take a break.  Could the witness be escorted out

 6     of the courtroom.

 7             Meanwhile, Mr. Ivetic, I'm addressing you when the witness leaves

 8     the courtroom.  One of the other differences the Chamber notices in

 9     relation to what is found on transcript pages 18652 to 18654, that the

10     statement we discussed at that time was a statement by a third person,

11     that third person, perhaps to be called as a witness or not, but at least

12     was not in court at that moment to answer any questions about the

13     statement he had given.  It was a third person.  Now, does that change

14     your position in any way?

15             MR. IVETIC:  It strengthens it, Your Honour.  The statement that

16     they're trying to admit here is the third person not in court.  That's

17     the bases of my objection.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I thought we were referring to this witness giving

19     testimony in --

20             MR. IVETIC:  No, I did not object to that document.  I objected

21     to the statement of Milan Lukic who is not in court and who is not giving

22     evidence in this case, and therefore was the bases of my objection to

23     that document.

24             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, we're mixing a whole bunch of things up

25     and I don't agree with that.  And it's an Official Note of an interview

Page 23779

 1     with Milan Lukic from the Serbian DB, and if we -- you'd like

 2     submissions, we can make them at the proper time.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I mixed it up.  My apologies for that.  We take

 4     a break and we will resume at 25 minutes to 2.00.

 5                           [The witness stands down]

 6                           --- Recess taken at 1.17 p.m.

 7                           --- On resuming at 1.37 p.m.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, the Chamber -- Mr. Ivetic, we have looked

 9     at the transcript.  Mr. Weber introduced 65 ter 30929 and said this was

10     the trial record of your testimony in February 2002 before the high

11     court.  Now, a couple of pages later after we had dealt with that, we see

12     that Mr. Weber said:

13             "Q. We are going to go through some more documents.

14             "MR. WEBER:  But, Your Honours, at this time the Prosecution

15     tenders 65 ter 30932," which is still the same court record.

16             And then -- under seal.  And then you said:

17             "Objection, Your Honour.  During the Prosecution's case whenever

18     we tried to use statements," et cetera.

19             So we understood this in direct response to the tendering of the

20     trial record known under number 65 ter 30392 but apparently you had

21     something else in mind.

22             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honour, and I note the record now reflects

23     three different numbers that you have said.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, if there is any need to correct the record if

25     at that moment - and it's not about me, but it's about Mr. Weber saying

Page 23780

 1     that we are going to go through some more documents, but at this time the

 2     Prosecution tenders and then that number into evidence.  If he has

 3     mentioned any others at that point in time, then we need a correction of

 4     the provisional transcript.

 5             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I think this is actually becoming more

 6     confused.  30929 is the witness's -- is the trial record from the

 7     witness's previous testimony in 2002.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  309 --

 9             MR. WEBER:  29.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Oh, yes.  I see that it's 932, yes.

11             MR. WEBER:  And then 30932 is a state security report from the

12     Serbian DB.  So I was using a separate document at that time, and my

13     reference in the Serbian DB document I believe was to using even more

14     documents along the lines of to further support what Milan Lukic had said

15     in that document.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

17             MR. WEBER:  So --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  We have to sort that out.  I was confused by the

19     numbers now.  And --

20             MR. IVETIC:  I can clarify it by reminding Your Honours that with

21     respect to this witness's prior testimony, my objection was that the

22     entire answer was not being read into the record.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

24             MR. IVETIC:  And with respect to the Milan Lukic interview, that

25     is the one that I objected to under the grounds and the transcript

Page 23781

 1     reference that I cited of the other witness.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I see that now.  I think we have misunderstood

 3     it.  Apologies for that.  And we'll further consider the objection and

 4     what was tendered.

 5                           [The witness takes the stand]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, if you're ready, you may continue.

 7             Apologies, Mr. Dragicevic for dealing with another matter when

 8     you entered the courtroom which is not very polite.  Please proceed.

 9             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honours.

10        Q.   A few minutes ago before the break, you said:

11             "How could anyone do that?  To select in the city itself?  Make a

12     distinction between civilians and soldiers?"

13             Sir, as a senior commander in the SRK, is it your evidence that

14     you believe it was not possible to distinguish between the civilians and

15     soldiers in Sarajevo during your operations?

16        A.   I didn't say that.  I said what I said.  It is impossible if you

17     are blocking a corps, which uses most of Sarajevo as its base, not to

18     block the civilians who are being held captive by the very same 1st Corps

19     of the ABiH.  That's what I said.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, and the way in which you phrased the

21     question is, of course, twisting the evidence of the witness.  It was

22     about blockades, not about any operations.  And therefore, if you would

23     put that to the witness, it should be clear that he's not confused

24     because he was talking about a blockade and you are now saying are you

25     saying that it was not possible to distinguish between civilians and --

Page 23782

 1     during operations.  Now, that's a different matter and you should have

 2     alerted the witness on the shift you made.

 3             Now, the witness happily enough was aware of it, apparently, but

 4     it was up to you, in all fairness to the witness, to have done that.

 5             Please proceed.

 6             MR. WEBER:  Moving on, could the Prosecution please have

 7     Exhibit P361.  And specifically could the Prosecution please have page 56

 8     of the B/C/S original and page 46 of the English translation.  I was

 9     looking for the original, if we could.  I believe that there is a B/C/S

10     transcription but there is also a handwritten original.  Okay.

11        Q.   This is an entry from General Mladic's notebooks dated 7 May 1994

12     related to an analysis of operation Zvijezda 94, or Star 94.  We see in

13     the text that it relates to a presentation that was held on this date

14     which appears to have taken place in Srbinje.  Were you present for this

15     meeting, this presentation?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Okay.

18             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please go to page 60 of the

19     B/C/S original and page 50 of the translation.

20        Q.   I'd like to direct your attention towards the bottom of the page.

21     Before you are General Mladic's own notes about his own presentation

22     given at this meeting.  Toward the bottom of the page, the notes state:

23             "We are not completely done with the M in the enclave of Gorazde.

24     The enclave" --

25             MR. WEBER:  And if we could please have the next version in both

Page 23783

 1     languages.

 2        Q.   "The enclave needs to be cut down, reduced, and made to suffer

 3     losses, especially on the outskirts, beyond a 3 KM perimeter.  And in

 4     this way ensure there is no perspective for the survival of the M in this

 5     area."

 6             Do you agree that the notation M stands for Muslims?

 7        A.   Yes, Muslims under arms.  This is primarily referred to, armed

 8     Muslim forces.

 9        Q.   Okay.  You're interpreting that, right?  It just says M.

10        A.   Well, if -- you said yourself that M stands for the Muslims, I'm

11     just explaining that what is referred to is the Muslims, their armed men

12     and units.

13        Q.   Okay.  When -- when -- the statement in this way, ensure that

14     that there is no perspective for the survival of the M in this area,

15     isn't that referring to all Muslims in the area of Gorazde?  Don't you

16     agree?

17        A.   I cannot agree with you because all of us very often use the term

18     "Muslims" but -- when meaning the "Muslim army."  I do believe that this

19     is what is referred to here.  Muslims is Muslim army.

20        Q.   Is it correct that you were personally involved in these

21     operations, to cut down and reduce the Gorazde enclave to the point where

22     there was no perspective for Muslims in the area?  I'm just putting it to

23     you.

24        A.   Yes, I did take part to use combat operations to incapacitate the

25     Muslim forces.  Let's not forget that in 1992, Serbs who had lived there

Page 23784

 1     were en masse driven out of the territory of Gorazde.

 2        Q.   Sir, let's stay focused on the matters at hand.

 3             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 30937 for

 4     the witness.

 5        Q.   This is a 7 April 1994 TG Visegrad order related to the Zvijezda

 6     94 operation.  Is it correct that this document is from you?

 7        A.   That's correct, yes.  But it's the left hand part is not very

 8     legible.

 9        Q.   I appreciate that.  With that being noted I just wanted to ask

10     you about some specific information that is legible.  In the document,

11     you ordered the transfer of guns to the Cabra area and tell the

12     2nd Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade to position them in a way that will

13     allow them to directly fir eon the town.

14             Can you see this information?

15        A.   Yes.  They are to be positioned in the way that will allow them

16     directly to fire, but when this term "grad," "town," refers to Muslim

17     positions within the town.

18        Q.   Okay.  Sir, just please stay focused on my question.  I'm going

19     to go through the information.  Where is the Cabra area?

20        A.   This is located on the left bank of the Drina and the left bank

21     of the Praca, above Ustipraca which is an elevation above Ustipraca.

22        Q.   What town could be directly fired upon from this area?

23        A.   We did not target any town.  We targeted their positions along

24     that axis.  This is to do with the orientation of the guns towards their

25     trenches and other fortifications which were located along the axis of

Page 23785

 1     our attack.

 2        Q.   Sir, I'm not asking for an explanation of the order.  I'm just

 3     merely asking you what the order states.  It says "in a way that will

 4     allow them to directly fire at the town."  What town are you referring

 5     to?

 6        A.   It refers to the positions in the town of Gorazde or, in other

 7     words, in the positions along the axis of Ustipraca and Gorazde.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  So the town referred to here, and that was the

 9     question, Gorazde.  That's clear.

10             Could the witness also tell us what the reference to 1091 would

11     mean?  Does this number say anything to you, after the portion that is

12     illegible?

13        A.   I'm sorry.  Thank you, Mr. President.  I erred.  This does not

14     refer to the town of Gorazde but to a fortification immediately before

15     Gorazde, opposite Ustipraca.  Now I was in two minds.  I'm not sure that

16     ZIS artillery cannot reach Gorazde from Cabra.  A Cabra is a strong

17     fortification called "grad."  I presume that 1091 may refer to the number

18     of the target.  And this is illegible.  I could not make out.  But 1091

19     is the reference number of a target.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Is there a target list with those numbers?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot claim decisively but we

22     did determine the targets to be fired at.  In my opinion this may refer

23     to that.  I cannot read the whole text.  But this does not specifically

24     refer to the town of Gorazde but to a hill which is named Grad.  It can

25     be seen from Ustipraca with the naked eye.  It's semi- to the right in

Page 23786

 1     that direction.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Both parties are invited to provide whatever

 3     additional documentary evidence which would shed light on what 1091 may

 4     refer to.  An elevation or a number on a target list, whatever.  Please

 5     proceed.

 6             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution tenders this document into evidence.

 7     It's 65 ter --

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Most probably this is an elevation,

 9     number of the elevation, but I'm not sure.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Then it should perhaps not be too difficult to find

11     it for the parties.

12             MR. IVETIC:  No objection to the tendering of the document.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30937 receives number P6655, Your

15     Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

17             Mr. Weber, any chance that you would finish within the next few

18     minutes?  So as to --

19             MR. WEBER:  I just have one more document to show the witness.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please.

21             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 30901.

22        Q.   Sir, this is a SRK command order dated 2 September 1995.  It

23     appears to be from you, correct?

24        A.   Yes, but not from the command of the SRK but from IKM and the

25     number is illegible.  I think it's IKM at 2 at Vogosca.  That would be

Page 23787

 1     forward command post of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps where I was as

 2     commander of that forward command post.

 3        Q.   In this document at number 3, it says that Igman and Ilidza

 4     infantry brigades would prepare AB launchers which will be ready for

 5     taking over of military posts according to the Talus 1 -- I believe that

 6     that's a Talus 1 operation.

 7        A.   Not military code but firing position,

 8     "vatrinja polozje [phoen]," firing position.

 9        Q.   Yes.  AB launchers from those positions.  Then we see a little

10     further down in the document that the Igman and Ilidza Brigade will

11     prepare two FABs each of 250 and 105 kilogramme and load them on the

12     vehicle of the Igman Infantry Brigade, and 3rd Sarajevo Infantry Brigade

13     will also load.  My question to you on this document is very simple.  Is

14     it correct that you issued orders related to the launching or

15     preparations for the launching of modified air-bombs?

16        A.   No.  This is my order, but it states here clearly on the basis of

17     an order by the SRK commander.  On the basis of that order I write my

18     order addressed to the units which I currently command and that would be

19     the IKM 2 Vogosca.

20        Q.   Okay.  Thank you for that clarification.

21             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, I tender this document.

22             MR. IVETIC:  No objection.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30901 receives number P6656, Your

25     Honours.

Page 23788

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 2             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, no further questions at this time.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Weber.

 4                           Re-examination by Mr. Ivetic:

 5        Q.   Colonel, yesterday at transcript page 23702 you were asked about

 6     your education and training in legal matters.  Now I want to ask you, did

 7     you have people with legal training in the department to assist you with

 8     your work?  And by "department" I mean the department for morale,

 9     religious affairs, and legal affairs within the SRK?

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I thought he mentioned that yesterday, that he did

11     have.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  And I think it's also in his statement.

13             MR. IVETIC:  Okay.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

15             MR. IVETIC:

16        Q.   You mentioned an assistant for legal affairs,

17     Captain Milenko Kuzmanovic.  Was he a lawyer or legally trained?

18        A.   Yes, he held a law degree.

19        Q.   Now returning to your department's work at the SRK giving

20     lectures on adherence to laws, international criminal law, who actually

21     conducted the trainings?  Was it you?

22        A.   No.  That would be my legal affairs assistant within the

23     department.  But also at brigade level we would have people with law

24     degrees who would deal with legal affairs within brigades, within the

25     section for morale, religious, and legal affairs.

Page 23789

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, the reference to the international

 2     criminal law, where do I find that?

 3             MR. IVETIC:  The law of war it should be.  The law of war it

 4     should be the reference.  I apologise.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You said international criminal law, which is

 6     different.

 7             MR. IVETIC:  Different.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 9             MR. IVETIC:

10        Q.   If we can ask first for you to clarify, you said your legal

11     affairs assistant within the department.  Was that person trained as a --

12     trained in law?

13        A.   Yes, he held a law degree.

14        Q.   Now I'd like to turn to your time spent in Visegrad.  And we

15     talked today about two volunteer platoons within the Visegrad Brigade.

16     Why were they called volunteer platoons, sir?

17        A.   Well, those were people who resided outside the territory of the

18     municipality of Visegrad or outside the Republika Srpska.  They would

19     come from Montenegro for the most part, Serbia, other parts of

20     Bosnia-Herzegovina, some from Russia.  We called them that but they

21     entered and were incorporated into companies as platoons or as

22     individuals.  These were not groups.  These were platoons.

23        Q.   Okay.

24             MR. IVETIC:  And if we can turn briefly to 65 ter number 30929,

25     page 5 in both versions.  It would be page 6 in the B/C/S and page 5 in

Page 23790

 1     the English.

 2        Q.   You were asked earlier today about your prior testimony in the

 3     trial in relation to Mr. Ranisavljevic, and at that time you were asked

 4     about whether one of the smaller units from the Visegrad Brigade could

 5     carry out a military operation without you knowing about it.  And in your

 6     answer, only the first line was read that said:  "A unit could not carry

 7     out any military operation as a unit without my knowledge," and then your

 8     answer continued:

 9             "I again emphasise that none of the units could move about in the

10     field without my knowledge because I would have to find out about it.

11     However, individuals from the brigade who were given a furlough by a

12     company commander for visiting their relatives to bathe and partake in

13     other free time activities, the movements of these soldiers could not be

14     followed, nor could I know where they were going.  This was not my task

15     and the brigade commander could not do this."

16             Do you stand by this prior testimony from this trial as being

17     truthful and accurate?

18        A.   Yes.  This is completely true.  I commanded units, not

19     individuals.

20        Q.   Okay.  And if we could look at the answer to the next question,

21     which is at the bottom of page 5 in English, and it will be on the same

22     page in page 6 in the B/C/S, where you were asked whether volunteers from

23     Serbia were assigned to the Visegrad Brigade, and your testimony is

24     recorded as follows:

25             "Volunteers coming from Serbia would report to the Visegrad MUP,

Page 23791

 1     Ministry of the Interior, and then to the military recruiting office, and

 2     they would then receive a summons for mobilisation by which they were

 3     assigned to the Visegrad Brigade thereby becoming an integral part of it.

 4     This was the case for the accused Nebojsa Ranisavljevic."

 5             Is this the procedure that you described earlier today when you

 6     mentioned the SJB and the recruitment office?

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, I can answer the question.  It's exactly

 8     the same --

 9             MR. IVETIC:  Okay.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  -- he described, so therefore there is no need to

11     ask it again.

12             MR. IVETIC:  Fair enough.  If we can call up 65 ter 02555.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  For the record, it's number P6651 MFI'd, Your

14     Honours.

15             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

16        Q.   Sir, this was the document shown to you by the Prosecution.  The

17     heading says "Command of the 1st Visegrad Light Infantry Brigade."  Did

18     such a command or such a formation ever exist, to your knowledge?

19        A.   To my knowledge, no.  Maybe at the time of being set up, but

20     I never heard of us being referred to.  We were 1st Visegrad Brigade and

21     then 2nd Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade, but this is not the gist of it.

22     What the --

23        Q.   Understood?

24        A.   -- misuse of this certificate is the gist of the -- the crux of

25     the matter.

Page 23792

 1        Q.   We have limited time.  I'd like to try and get through everything

 2     so we can finish you today.

 3             Now you mentioned the absence of a date.  Is anything else

 4     missing from the header of this document that you would expect to find

 5     from a legitimate document issued by the VRS?

 6             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I think that there is some leading

 7     aspect to that but there is also -- it's vague.  There are many different

 8     types of documents issued by the VRS.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  The objection is denied.  The witness may answer the

10     question.

11             Anything that strikes you as missing?  That's --

12             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, for such a document, this is

14     a certificate.  It's a common document.  This form can stand.  There may

15     have been other details in the letter head but this certificate serves

16     local purposes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  You were not asked about that.  Is there anything

18     that strikes you as missing compared to what you would expect for such a

19     document?  From your answer I take it that it's nothing.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Maybe the date below.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We have paid attention to the date already.

22             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Are you done with this document?

24             MR. IVETIC:  No.  No, I'm not.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Please proceed.

Page 23793

 1             MR. IVETIC:

 2        Q.   We talked about the stamp earlier.  I'd like to direct your

 3     attention to the number that is indicated in the stamp, number 1.  What

 4     officer in the brigade would be assigned the number 1 stamp?

 5        A.   Personnel officers.  Personnel officers had custody of rubber

 6     stamps.

 7        Q.   Do you recall as chief of staff what the number of your stamp

 8     would have been?

 9        A.   I can't.

10             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I'm done with this document.  If you

11     have something further.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I have one question.  The document is a double one,

13     the one dealing with Milan Lukic, but there is another part which refers

14     to Dragutin Dragicevic.  To your knowledge is that person any way related

15     to you?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, although I did have quite a lot

17     of problems because of his surname being the same as mine.  I don't

18     believe that he was from Zvornik, not from Visegrad at all.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, the answer is no, that is sufficient.

20             Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

21             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

22        Q.   And following up on Your Honour's question, was

23     Mr. Dragutin Dragicevic ever a member of the Visegrad Brigade?

24        A.   To my knowledge, no.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Now if we could turn to Boban Indjic.  During the

Page 23794

 1     time period you were at either the Visegrad Brigade, the

 2     Visegrad tactical group, or the 2nd Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade, did

 3     anyone ever report to you that Boban Indjic had been accused of

 4     committing a crime?

 5        A.   No.  Not only Boban Indjic but any other member of the brigade.

 6        Q.   Okay.

 7             MR. IVETIC:  If we could turn to 65 ter number 02556.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  For the record, this is Exhibit P6654, Your

 9     Honours.

10             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11        Q.   This is another document that the Prosecution showed to you.  And

12     earlier you wanted to point something out to us in this document about, I

13     believe, the dates that are listed that Milan Lukic joined the brigade.

14     Could you please complete your submission that you wanted to say?  What

15     is the significance of the date 26 April 1992?

16        A.   The 26th of April, at that time Visegrad Brigade did not exist.

17     It was established 19th of May 1992.  Therefore, he could not have been a

18     member of that brigade.  Of course, I stand by my statement that he was

19     never a member of the Visegrad Brigade as long as I was in Visegrad

20     either as commander, Chief of Staff of the brigade, and commander of the

21     tactical group -- Chief of Staff of the tactical group.

22        Q.   Did you ever receive or see this document during the time period

23     that you were at the Visegrad tactical group?

24        A.   I never saw it, and it can't be deduced from this document who is

25     the addressee, who this document is addressed to for consideration or

Page 23795

 1     decision.  There is no addressee of this document.  There is no

 2     indication of who is this document addressed to.

 3        Q.   Thank you, Colonel.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  I apologise to the interpreters and the transcribers

 5     for the speed of my questioning, but I've completed my redirect.

 6             Thank you, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Judge Moloto has one or more questions for you.

 8                           Questioned by the Court:

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

10             Sir, at page 82 lines 22 to 23 of today's transcript, you say --

11     sorry, let me just find it.  You say you had quite a lot of problems

12     because of this Dragutin Dragicevic having the same name as you.  What

13     kind of problems did you have?

14        A.   By inertia everyone thought he was a cousin of mine because of

15     his last name, and they wanted me to be able to provide some kind of

16     protection due to that fact during the proceedings at the district court

17     in Bijelo Polje and the high court in Belgrade.  It came from the

18     defence; that is to say, the counsel for the accused.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay, thank you so much.  That's fine.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Have the questions of the Bench triggered any need

21     for further questions?

22             If not, Mr. Dragicevic, I'd like to thank you very much for

23     coming to The Hague and for having answered all the questions that were

24     put to you by the parties.  But before I conclude, I told you that you

25     would be given an opportunity at the end to add anything you thought we'd

Page 23796

 1     need to know directly related to any question put to you.  If there is

 2     anything you'd like to add to that, so not general statements but

 3     anything that you said for a proper understanding of this and this answer

 4     to that and that question, you need to know A, B, or C, you have an

 5     opportunity to do so.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, I'd like to thank

 7     you.  Second of all, it seems to me that I owe you a response to a

 8     question I did not hear yesterday.  And I don't want to leave it without

 9     a reply if in any way able to do so so as to correct my mistake.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The only thing:  You say I owe you a response

11     to a question I did not hear yesterday.  If that is a question which was

12     not put to you, there is no need to reply to that.  And I was a bit

13     confused by you then saying, "And I don't want to leave it without a

14     reply."  But what question was it that you say you didn't hear?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You put it but I was unable to hear

16     it, and I don't know what the question was at all.  Maybe you can recall

17     it.  In any case, I'm just sorry for not having provided you with an

18     answer.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, that's appreciated that you're concerned

20     about my questions being answered.  I have no recollection of any

21     questions which I've put to you to which I did not receive an answer such

22     that I would invite you to answer that question now.

23             So we will then leave it to that.  Thank you again and I wish you

24     a safe return home again.  You may follow the usher.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you as well.

Page 23797

 1                           [The witness withdrew]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn for the day and we resume tomorrow,

 3     Thursday, the 10th of July, in this same courtroom, I, at 9.30 in the

 4     morning.

 5                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.19 p.m.,

 6                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 10th day of July,

 7                           2014, at 9.30 a.m.