Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 23886

 1                           Friday, 11 July 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 8     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             The witness may be escorted into the courtroom.

11             The matter you would like to raise, Mr. Traldi, is of such

12     short -- it is about P6659, I take it.

13             MR. TRALDI:  Yes, Mr. President.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  And I also do understand that you have received an

15     English translation and that the revised translation has been uploaded

16     into e-court under doc ID 0324-1848-1 ET.  And that you would request

17     that the revised version replace the English translation currently

18     attached to it.

19             MR. TRALDI:  We would.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  I was only reading the text written by your case

21     manager so therefore I knew that you would agree.

22             And I take it that, Mr. Lukic, the Chamber will grant leave to

23     replace the version but the next question is admission.  Is there any

24     objection, apart from the language issue, against admission?

25             MR. LUKIC:  No, Your Honour.


Page 23887

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Then the new version may replace the originally

 2     uploaded version and P6659 is admitted into evidence.

 3             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Your Honour.  One other very brief

 4     matter, if I might.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 6             MR. TRALDI:  We have been informed that the Registry searched its

 7     physical evidence vault and was unable to locate the B/C/S original of

 8     Mr. Kecmanovic's expert report for the Kvocka case, and indeed, the

 9     version uploaded under 65 ter 30955 is the only one that appears to be in

10     any of the Tribunal's systems, as best we can tell.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The Chamber appreciates that everyone, Defence

12     and Prosecution, tried to do its best to locate the expert report, yes,

13     and of course the Registry as well.  But matters are as they are now.

14                           [The witness takes the stand]

15                           WITNESS:  NENAD KECMANOVIC [Resumed]

16                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Kecmanovic.  Perhaps before you

18     put on your ear-phones I should say dobar dan.  No, it's dobro jutro --

19     no, it's fine, put them on.  I was just addressing you before you had put

20     on your ear-phones.  Therefore I thought I should do it in your own

21     language, but I leave it to that.

22             Before we continue I'd like to remind you that you're still bound

23     by the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your

24     testimony.  Mr. Traldi will now continue his cross-examination.

25             Mr. Traldi.


Page 23888

 1             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 2                           Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi: [Continued]

 3        Q.   Good morning, sir.

 4        A.   Good morning.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  Could we start by calling up 65 ter 30955, page 31.

 6     This is another portion of Mr. Kecmanovic's report for the Kvocka case.

 7        Q.   While it's coming up, sir, yesterday you testified that it was

 8     your impression that VRS forces randomly shelled Sarajevo from the

 9     surrounding hills; right?

10        A.   And I made a correction regarding that issue.

11             MR. TRALDI:  And for this document, we will have page 31 in the

12     English and the B/C/S lacks that page.

13             Now --

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The B/C/S can be removed from the screen,

15     I think.

16             MR. TRALDI:  Yes, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's page 31 you're asking for?

18             MR. TRALDI:  Yes, and that's the correct page.

19        Q.   This is a part of the report which you drafted; correct?

20        A.   Can I have it in B/C/S, please?

21        Q.   This is the portion that we don't have the B/C/S original in the

22     systems.  So unless you have it in your possession, we do not have the

23     B/C/S of this section.  So if I can ask again, this is a portion of the

24     report that you drafted; correct?

25        A.   Yes, that's right.


Page 23889

 1        Q.   And it's undated but it was drafted several years after the war;

 2     correct?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And you'd spent the intervening years living in Belgrade; right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Now, under the heading, "The Sarajevo tragedy," at the bottom of

 7     the page in English, you are discussing the situation of Sarajevo Serbs

 8     and you write as follows:

 9             "But as soon as the front lines were established around Sarajevo,

10     they actually became victims of a twofold terror.  The outside terror of

11     their ethnic kin who randomly showered them with shells from the

12     surrounding hills."

13             And then you make allegations about mistreatment of Serbs in

14     Sarajevo.  So my question is:  In your report, drafted several years

15     after the war, you presented the random shelling of Sarajevo by VRS

16     forces as a fact, didn't you?

17        A.   I made a correction regarding that in the previous proceedings.

18        Q.   So this report contains your impressions rather than facts about

19     what happened?  Or did you believe it when you drafted the report to be a

20     fact?

21        A.   Those were my impressions.

22        Q.   Now, you also received reports about the heavy shelling of

23     Sarajevo at the Bosnian Presidency; correct?

24        A.   It was something we experienced because I was in Sarajevo.  It

25     was not a matter that was dealt with by the reports received by the


Page 23890

 1     Presidency.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I again ask you now to answer the

 3     questions.  You've stated already that you lived there, that you

 4     experienced it.  The question now was whether you also received reports

 5     about the heavy shelling.  It's of no use to say that you experienced it

 6     because you've told us that already.  It's of no use not to answer the

 7     question.  The question was whether you also received reports.  And this

 8     is one of my last warnings.  Otherwise, we'll have to really -- we have

 9     to take a different route in your testimony.

10             I mean, you came here and we fully acknowledge the importance of

11     your testimony for the Defence but if you refuse to directly answer

12     questions that are put to you, and if you again and again stress what you

13     want to say rather than to answer a question, this might have

14     consequences for the weight to be given to your testimony and even

15     perhaps for whether we want to further hear your testimony.  Let that be

16     clear to you.

17             You've stated that you experienced it.  Now the question is

18     whether you also received reports.  Would you please answer that

19     question.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 30947.  Page 1 in both

22     languages.

23        Q.   Now, these are -- this is the transcript from the 114th session

24     of the Bosnian Presidency on the 9th of June, 1992.  You attended that

25     session; correct?


Page 23891

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   On page 1 in both languages, right at the beginning, we see

 3     General Halilovic briefing the Presidency and he states --

 4        A.   I apologise.  Can we go to the very top of the transcript so as

 5     to be able to see whether I was present during this session?  Because

 6     I didn't attend them all.

 7        Q.   Well, you've just testified that you attended it but if we look

 8     at page 10 in the B/C/S version, I think we'll see your name.  We don't

 9     have a full attendee list here on page 1.  And that's your name,

10     Kecmanovic, right between Izetbegovic and Halilovic; right?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   If we could go back to page 1, General Halilovic states in the

13     second sentence:

14             "First, this artillery fire which was opened at the city during

15     the last 70 hours, non-stop, as far as we were able to work out, at the

16     city of Sarajevo regardless of what devastation results it had, there is

17     a revolt of the people to resist?"

18             Do you see that text?

19        A.   I see it.

20        Q.   Artillery fire had been particularly heavy for the few days

21     before the 9th of June; correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, the translation is only partial, and

24     the original is complete.  I'd propose that we upload as 65 ter 30947A

25     B/C/S version that corresponds to the partial translation and I'd ask


Page 23892

 1     that an MFI number be reserved for when we've done that.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And if there is any other context need,

 3     Mr. Lukic, I take it that you'll make proposals for that purpose.  Yes.

 4             Madam Registrar, could we reserve a number for what will be an

 5     excerpt of the -- of the minutes of the BiH Presidency meeting held on

 6     the 9th of June, 1992.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Reserve number for document 30947A would be -- is

 8     P6660, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

10             MR. TRALDI:

11        Q.   Now, sir, I want to turn to the pre-war political events you

12     discussed during direct examination.  You mentioned one specific session

13     of the Bosnian Assembly in paragraph 8 of your statement, the session on

14     14 and 15 October 1991.  Do you recall that session?

15        A.   Not very precisely, although I was in attendance.

16        Q.   And you don't mention in your statement that you were there

17     yourself, do you?

18        A.   I can't recall precisely whether I attended the whole of the

19     session because I was under no obligation to do so.  I could be present,

20     though, without the right of vote, in the capacity of party president.

21        Q.   Now, you say in your statement that your party, afterwards, "said

22     it was against the Muslim-Croat coalition making decisions that

23     contravened the views of the Serbian side."

24             That is all you say in your statement about this Assembly

25     session; correct?


Page 23893

 1        A.   The position of my party was to object one-sided decisions of any

 2     of the three sides, in the tripartite bodies of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 3        Q.   Well, it appears you're referring to a two-decided decision, but

 4     regardless, my question was:  That is all you say about this session in

 5     your statement; correct?

 6             MR. LUKIC:  If I may.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  The portion of the statement should be put on the

 9     screen so this witness can check.  He cannot know by heart the whole

10     statement.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  But then of course you need to --

12             MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  If the question is whether that's the only thing,

14     then you should put the whole.  But I think it would perhaps be good to

15     have the relevant portion on the screen, Mr. Lukic.  To that extent

16     I fully agree with you, but it doesn't resolve the problem.  Please

17     proceed.

18             MR. TRALDI:  I'm happy to have that paragraph called up.  We need

19     paragraph 8 of D556.  And I notice the witness no longer has the B/C/S

20     hard copy that was provided to him yesterday.  But I'm happy for him to

21     be provided with a clean one again.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Then he'll be provided with it again.

23             MR. TRALDI:

24        Q.   Sir, paragraph 8 is on, I believe, page 4 of the B/C/S.  And

25     page 5 of the English.


Page 23894

 1        A.   Which paragraph?

 2        Q.   8.  So I'll put to you again:  It's correct, isn't it, that all

 3     you say about this Assembly session is that your party said it was

 4     against the Muslim-Croat coalition making decisions that contravened the

 5     views of the Serbian side and you explained why you took that position.

 6     That's all you say about this session; right?

 7        A.   In the second sentence of this paragraph, you can find what

 8     I just referred to.  It was in keeping with our principled approach that

 9     the three ruling parties must refrain from making any moves on their own.

10     That is to say that a three-way consensus had to be behind all decisions.

11        Q.   Again, that is all you say about this session in your statement;

12     correct?

13             I see you've nodded but you have to articulate your answer for

14     the record.

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Now, Radovan Karadzic also spoke at this session, didn't he?

17        A.   Yes, as far as I remember.

18        Q.   Toward the end of the debate, he made a shocking statement that

19     the Muslim people would perish in the war that would be provoked by the

20     independence of Bosnia and Herzegovina against the will of the Serbs,

21     didn't he?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And you did not consider that relevant to mention in your

24     statement for this case, did you?

25        A.   It was quoted multiple times.  It was very well known, and


Page 23895

 1     I found it unnecessary to stress that particular fact yet again.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  Now, just to have the record completely clear, I'm

 3     going to ask Ms. Stewart to play a clip from P2004.  For the record it

 4     will start at 9.29 and end at 9.56 of that exhibit.  My understanding is

 5     the booths have been provided with a transcript of this portion of the

 6     video.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  And then you'll put questions to the witness about

 8     it?

 9             MR. TRALDI:  I will.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, because just to look at it, that it happened

11     seems to be not very much in dispute.  If it is about the speech

12     delivered by Mr. Karadzic.

13             MR. TRALDI:  Just to remind the booths, the portion we are

14     playing will start on page 3 in the transcript in both languages.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  And we have to then play it twice, Mr. Traldi.

16             MR. TRALDI:  I believe it was confirmed for when it was played

17     and introduced into evidence.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  If that is the case, we can play it one time only.

19     Please proceed.

20                           [Video-clip played]

21             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "... it is not good what you are

22     doing.  This is the road that you want Bosnia and Herzegovina to take,

23     the same highway of hell and suffering that Slovenia and Croatia went

24     through.  Don't think you won't take Bosnia and Herzegovina to hell and

25     Muslim people in possible extinction.  Because Muslim people will not be


Page 23896

 1     able to defend itself if it comes to war here.  Please, I know these are

 2     serious words."

 3             MR. TRALDI:  That's the end of the clip.

 4        Q.   Sir, I do have some brief questions for you about that clip.

 5     First, that's the statement that we were just discussing; right?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   You said yesterday, during direct examination, that Serbs in

 8     Bosnia were aware of what happened in Croatia and concerned about the

 9     change in the Croatian constitution in 1990.  Now, a reference to the

10     highway to hell, and the path to death and destruction that Croatia and

11     Slovenia went through, Muslims and Croats in the Assembly and elsewhere

12     would have been aware of the consequences of the war that by then had

13     broken out in Croatia, wouldn't they?

14        A.   I apologise, I did not understand the question.

15        Q.   I'll try to ask it more simply.  By the time he gave this speech,

16     Muslims and Croats in Bosnia would have been aware of the consequences of

17     the war in Croatia for the Croatian population there, wouldn't they?

18        A.   For both the Serbs and Croats, yes.

19        Q.   And the impact on them of Mr. Karadzic's words would have been,

20     as you described it, shocking, wouldn't it, and terrifying?

21        A.   I was present when Karadzic spoke these words, and it was meant

22     to be cautionary.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, in that report, you used the word

24     "shocking."  The question is whether the impact indeed would be shocking

25     for the population listening to it.


Page 23897

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can say that it was a shocking

 2     warning, so as to include both.

 3             MR. TRALDI:

 4        Q.   And a terrifying one, right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Now, you said in your statement that your party expressed its

 7     opposition to making decisions without the consent of one of the

 8     constituent peoples.  Did your party also express its opposition to the

 9     idea of one of the constituent people of Bosnia-Herzegovina perishing in

10     a war?

11        A.   It did not have to do with individual political statements.  It

12     had to be applied to the principle of voting and decision-making.

13        Q.   So do I understand your evidence to be that your party, after

14     this shocking statement, took no position on it but opposed what the

15     Muslim and Croat coalition had done at that session; is that right?

16        A.   We opposed one-sided decisions.  As for the individual statements

17     of politicians, sometimes we reacted, at other times we did not.  It

18     wasn't a matter of principle.  We explicitly stood for what we -- what

19     I stated in paragraph 8.  We were in favour of all decisions being

20     reached by consensus.

21        Q.   I understand that as a good politician, you're explaining to us

22     your party's principles.  What I'm asking is:  Did you take a position on

23     this specific statement?

24        A.   I'm not sure.  I don't know.  I can't say either way.

25        Q.   Now, the Bosnian Serbs also formed a separate Assembly in


Page 23898

 1     response to what happened at this Assembly session; that's right, isn't

 2     it?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And you don't mention that in your statement, do you?

 5        A.   The establishment of the Assembly, no.

 6        Q.   Your party took no position on the forming of a Serb Assembly,

 7     did it?

 8        A.   We considered that to be a logical consequence of the outvoting

 9     that happened in the joint parliament.

10        Q.   And you, yourself, attended the founding session of that

11     Assembly; right?

12        A.   Yes, as a guest.

13        Q.   And a plebiscite, as you testified about yesterday, was also

14     organised in response to what had happened on the 14th and 15th; correct?

15        A.   That's correct.

16        Q.   And you didn't oppose that plebiscite; right?

17        A.   Do you mean personally or as a party?

18        Q.   As a party.

19        A.   I believe we didn't.

20        Q.   And you're aware, aren't you, that Serbs and non-Serbs were

21     issued different coloured ballots?

22        A.   I don't remember that.  I can't really say either way.  If you'll

23     allow me, I would like to give a brief explanation.

24        Q.   At the moment, I'm interested in the question I've just asked.

25        A.   Yes.


Page 23899

 1             MR. TRALDI:  And so let's pull up 65 ter 07941.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the English translation is not

 3     released.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi?

 5             MR. TRALDI:  I believe we are in the process of remedying that,

 6     Your Honour.  I just ask your indulgence for a minute.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  And I'm told it's been released now.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, because it was on your list, so therefore it's

10     to be expected, but we now have it.

11             MR. TRALDI:  It's -- yes.

12        Q.   And so we can see the original on the left side in blue; right?

13        A.   Yes, yes.

14             MR. TRALDI:  And could we have 65 ter 07942?

15             THE REGISTRAR:  English translation not released, Your Honour.

16             MR. TRALDI:  It is now.

17        Q.   And we can see this ballot in yellow; right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And we can also see without going through it in detail that there

20     is different text on this ballot, that there is less text on this ballot

21     than the one before; correct?

22        A.   I've just read what it says here on this yellow paper.  Could you

23     please return the other ballot, the white or blue one, the red or blue

24     one.

25        Q.   The blue is 07941.  There is more text on this one by comparison;


Page 23900

 1     right?

 2        A.   That's right.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can we have the English translation back?  Thank

 4     you.

 5             MR. TRALDI:

 6        Q.   And for instance, the references to the Serb people in this blue

 7     ballot are absent from the yellow ballot that we just looked at, aren't

 8     they?

 9        A.   That's right.

10        Q.   I'd put to you that these different coloured ballots in the

11     plebiscite were also not mentioned in your statement; right?

12        A.   I wasn't aware of this.

13        Q.   I'd put to you that this was widely known at the time.  You were

14     a member of and active in Bosnian politics, weren't you?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Did you know Radovan Karadzic was asked about this on video?

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, the last question and answer are

18     ambiguous.  You did put to the witness that this, being the two different

19     ballot papers, was widely known at the time.

20             Witness, when you answered yes, did you acknowledge that this was

21     widely known at the time?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't know about it.  Now, if it

23     was widely known, I would assume that I would have supposed to have known

24     it but I wasn't aware of these two different ballots.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  So the answer to the first part of the question is:


Page 23901

 1     I couldn't tell you.  And the answer to the second part, then, must be

 2     about a yes that you were a member of an active -- you were active in

 3     Bosnian politics.  You confirm that?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

 6             MR. TRALDI:

 7        Q.   Now, did you know that Mr. Karadzic was interviewed about the

 8     plebiscite, including about the different coloured ballots?

 9        A.   I don't remember that.

10        Q.   Can I take it that you also don't remember your party taking any

11     position on the plebiscite being administered differently to members of

12     different ethnic groups?

13        A.   Perhaps now would be a good moment for me to describe briefly

14     what my party did, the party that I led, and our position on the

15     plebiscite.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  No, we would like you to answer the question.  If at

17     the very end there is any need to address any matter which is directly

18     related to a question, you have an opportunity to do so, but at this

19     moment, you're invited to focus on the question put to you by Mr. Traldi.

20             MR. TRALDI:

21        Q.   Would it be useful for me to ask that question again?

22        A.   Please go ahead.

23        Q.   Can I take it that you also don't remember your party taking any

24     position on the plebiscite being administered differently to members of

25     different ethnic groups?


Page 23902

 1        A.   I'm certain that we did not take any position on that.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I'd tender these two ballots,

 3     65 ter 07941 and 07942.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Under one number or two numbers?  Madam Registrar.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 7941 receives number P6661 and

 6     document 7942 receives number P6662, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  P6661 and P6662 are admitted.

 8             MR. TRALDI:

 9        Q.   Around this time, Serbian autonomous regions were also declared;

10     right?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And you mentioned this on direct examination, but it's not in

13     your statement either; right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   You did, at the time, however, publicly express concern about the

16     establishment of SAOs in areas where Serbs were a minority because you

17     believed those would lead to interethnic tensions, didn't you?

18        A.   That's right.

19        Q.   Now, your party, the SRSJ, was one of several multi-ethnic

20     political parties in Bosnia; right?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Your policies put you in opposition to all the ethnic nationalist

23     parties, the Serbian SDS, Croatian HDZ, and Muslim SDA; correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   You discuss one of those, the SDA, in detail in your statement


Page 23903

 1     and you were asked about them again during direct examination.  By the

 2     time of the elections in 1990, however, all three parties were

 3     essentially mono-ethnic and running on nationalist platforms; right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And ethnic nationalism was already a political force in the

 6     former Yugoslavia before that, in all three ethnic communities?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   You talked about Muslim nationalism a bit during direct

 9     examination.  I'll just look at one example of Serb nationalism out of

10     many.  Vojislav Seselj, who studied at the University of Sarajevo while

11     you were on the faculty, had become a prominent nationalist figure by

12     this time, hadn't he?

13        A.   Yes.

14             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 30965?  This is an interview

15     with Mr. Seselj as reprinted in one of his books, "Politics as a

16     challenge to the conscience."  And the interview is dated 1989, the

17     18th of April.  Once it's come up I'll ask for page 6 in both languages.

18        Q.   And we see in the middle of the page in both languages someone

19     represented with the initials MN ask Seselj how the state should be

20     created.  Do you see that?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Now, turning to page 7 in the English, and I believe also in the

23     B/C/S, in the last paragraph before the initials NN appear at the next

24     question, Mr. Seselj opines on the borders of Serbia and he says:

25             "The present core Serbia, Vojvodina, Kosovo and Metohija,


Page 23904

 1     Montenegro, Bosnia and Herzegovina" --

 2        A.   My apologies.  Where can I find that?

 3        Q.   The top of the page in the B/C/S, second sentence.

 4        A.   Yes, I can see it now.

 5        Q.   I'll start again.

 6             "The present core Serbia, Vojvodina, Kosovo and Metohija,

 7     Montenegro, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Macedonia, Dubrovnik, Dalmatia, Lika,

 8     Kordun, Banija, Eastern Slavonia and Baranja, should all be within the

 9     borders of Serbia."

10             This is nationalist rhetoric; right?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And you mentioned the reaction that you thought Serbs had had to

13     the republishing of the Islamic Declaration.  Now, the

14     Islamic Declaration doesn't mention Bosnia and Herzegovina, does it?

15        A.   That's correct.

16        Q.   Mr. Seselj, on the other hand, mentions Bosnia and Herzegovina

17     and says it should be part of Serbia; right?

18        A.   Yes.

19             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 30965.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, I didn't look yet whether this is an

21     excerpt or I take it it's not the whole of the book?

22             MR. TRALDI:  No, no, no.  It's this interview.  It's an excerpt

23     from a chapter as I recall.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  I see it's 7 pages in English.

25             Mr. Lukic, any objections?


Page 23905

 1             MR. LUKIC:  No.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar?

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30965 receives number P6663,

 4     Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  P6663 is admitted into evidence.

 6             MR. TRALDI:

 7        Q.   Now, I want to turn now to the Cutileiro Plan, and you were

 8     familiar with that; right?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   You attended meetings chaired by Mr. Cutileiro in Sarajevo?

11        A.   Not all of them.  From time to time my party was invited to join

12     the talks.

13        Q.   So you attended some of the meetings held in Sarajevo?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   You did not, however, attend the sessions of the committee in

16     Lisbon; right?

17        A.   I was supposed to travel to Lisbon.  However, the flight was

18     cancelled.

19        Q.   So you did not attend the session; right?

20        A.   In Lisbon, no.

21             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 30951?  This is an opinion piece

22     written by Mr. Kecmanovic on 26 February 1992.  And we'll zoom in on the

23     bottom left-hand part of the page in the B/C/S.  I'm looking at the end

24     of the first paragraph.

25        Q.   At the time, you wrote as follows:


Page 23906

 1             "The Lisbon proposal will not, as claimed by some, destroy the

 2     sovereignty of BH.  Instead it is the most realistic way of ensuring its

 3     stability.  The radical circles of the SDS are seeking to sever parts of

 4     BH with the predominantly Serbian population from the republic and

 5     establish new states."

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can the B/C/S be enlarged with respect to the

 7     first paragraph?

 8             MR. TRALDI:

 9        Q.   And you can see SDS and BiH right above each other on the

10     left-hand side.  I'm reading around that portion.  So I'll stop there for

11     a moment.  It's correct that the SDS was, in your view at the time,

12     seeking to establish new states; right?

13        A.   I only make reference to some extreme examples but not as the

14     fundamental policies of any party.

15        Q.   Who do you see as representing those extreme examples in the SDS?

16        A.   Well, I cannot single anyone out, but I know that they -- there

17     were some radical solutions in their discussions within the party.

18             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 30951.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar?

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30951 receives number P6664,

21     Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

23             Mr. Traldi, will you follow up on this, on extreme or is it --

24     have you done with it?

25             MR. TRALDI:  I have just one follow-up question.


Page 23907

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay, then we'll wait for that.

 2             MR. TRALDI:

 3        Q.   Sir, you refer to discussions within the party.  You weren't a

 4     member of the SDS; right?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   And weren't privy to those discussions?

 7        A.   No, of course not.

 8        Q.   So you're not sure who took which side of those discussions?

 9        A.   Well, I think -- I'm not certain but as far as I can remember,

10     I think that Mr. Karadzic himself or perhaps Mr. Koljevic, the late

11     Mr. Koljevic, mentioned at some point that there were such relations

12     within the party.

13             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, that completes my questions about the

14     topic, if Your Honour had additional questions.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You said it was the radical fraction within

16     that party.  Now, could you tell us where you found that the mainstream

17     opinion in the party was that -- was different from what you describe

18     here as the radical position?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The official policy of the

20     Serbian Democratic Party, and that was the dominant position, was to

21     support the Lisbon solution.  The Lisbon treaty or agreement.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  And did that remain over time?  Or -- I mean that no

23     new states should be established.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the continuous policies from

25     Lisbon to the Dayton Accords that were also signed by the Serb side as


Page 23908

 1     well as the other two, the Croatian and the Bosniak side, support for a

 2     common state with entities, cantons and so on.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

 4             MR. TRALDI:

 5        Q.   I'd like to look at Lisbon in a little more detail.  The central

 6     issue of the Cutileiro discussions was the effort to ethnically divide

 7     Bosnia and Herzegovina; right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And you were aware then that the Bosnian Serbs were seeking an

10     ethnic division of the territory; right?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   In fact, this was a matter of public discussion and everyone was

13     aware of it; correct?

14        A.   At this time, there was -- there were discussions in the

15     political circles in Sarajevo, also outside of the Lisbon talks, there

16     were talks between the parties directly.  Simply put, that was the topic

17     of the day:  How to divide Bosnia and yet keep it integral and whole.

18     And there were various combinations as to how to accomplish that.

19        Q.   Now, you subsequently became aware that the position of the

20     Bosnian Serbs at that time was that they couldn't live with the Muslims,

21     didn't you?

22        A.   After the clashes that went on for a long time, this was not

23     easily resolved and this was simply the consequence of what preceded it.

24        Q.   So you did subsequently become aware that that was the Bosnian

25     Serbs' position; right?


Page 23909

 1        A.   As a reaction, yes.

 2        Q.   Now, you said earlier that the Serb side had signed and supported

 3     the Cutileiro Plan.  Did you mean the plan as it was on the

 4     18th of March, 1992?

 5        A.   Well, the primary desire of the Serbian people and the Serbian

 6     Democratic Party as well as my party was to remain in Yugoslavia.

 7     However, as that was impossible and there was no tripartite agreement,

 8     the Lisbon agreement --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I'll put the question to you again.  When you said

10     earlier that the Serb side had signed and supported the Cutileiro Plan,

11     were you referring to the plan as it was on the 18th of March, 1992?

12     Would you please answer that question that was put to you.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot answer that question

14     precisely.  When you mentioned the date, does that mean that there were

15     changes in this agreement?  Or -- I don't understand.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, that's a fair matter, Mr. Traldi?

17             MR. TRALDI:

18        Q.   I'm referring to the date that it was discussed in the Serb

19     Assembly which I think you're aware of and has been discussed with you in

20     all your previous testimonies.  Did you mean that the Serb side signed

21     and supported the plan as it existed on that date?

22        A.   The date confuses me, but otherwise, yes, there was support for

23     the Lisbon agreement.  That is precisely why I asked you if there were

24     different versions of the agreement.  I know, generally speaking, that

25     the Lisbon agreement was supported by the SDS and the other two sides.


Page 23910

 1        Q.   Well, I'd like to test your evidence in that respect, but looking

 2     at the clock, I see I may have to do it after the break.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You certainly will have to do it after the

 4     break.

 5             Mr. Kecmanovic, we take a break of 20 minutes, and you may follow

 6     the usher.

 7                           [The witness stands down]

 8             MR. TRALDI:  Mr. President, while the witness is exiting I can

 9     inform the Chamber 65 ter 30947A is now in e-court.  It's been

10     provisionally marked as P6660.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic -- and you tender it now?

12             MR. TRALDI:  I do, although if Mr. Lukic would like to wait until

13     after the break to give his position, I wouldn't oppose that.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic?

15             MR. LUKIC:  I'll use the break to check it.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We will resume at 10 minutes to 11.00.

17                           --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

18                           --- On resuming at 10.54 a.m.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  While we are waiting for the witness to come in,

20     Mr. Lukic, I think yesterday we cut shorter the time limit for a response

21     to the tu quoque submissions made by the Prosecution mainly because one

22     of the witnesses would appear pretty soon.  Therefore we changed it from

23     Wednesday to Monday.  I do understand that the Prosecution has now

24     withdrawn in relation to that witness, at least, the tu quoque objection.

25     So therefore for the other witness, where there is no withdrawal or no


Page 23911

 1     withdrawal yet, I do not know, the time limit is Wednesday now.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3             Before the witness is with us, I went through the excerpt that

 4     has number P6660 and I -- Mr. Traldi and I agreed that I have no

 5     objection for admission in this form, but we also agreed that I could add

 6     anything I deem necessary.  So already I can see that I will ask for

 7     another two pages.  So I don't know if we should wait until that

 8     translation is ready or it should be different number but I think it's

 9     not the best idea.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi.

11             MR. TRALDI:  I'm happy to wait until the translation is received.

12     Of course, we will want to look it over at that point.  Will the Defence

13     be putting in the request for the translation?  We are happy to do it.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  That offer is accepted.

16                           [The witness takes the stand]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, on behalf of the Defence you will ask.

18             Mr. Kecmanovic, we will continue with the cross-examination, at

19     least Mr. Traldi will.

20             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

21             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

22        Q.   Sir, first, to explain the focus on the date of 18 March, that's

23     the date you mention in your statement when the Cutileiro Plan was

24     presented to the RS Assembly by Mr. Karadzic; right?

25        A.   I don't remember precisely, but most likely.


Page 23912

 1             MR. TRALDI:  Just for clarity, perhaps if we could have -- I

 2     believe it's paragraph 55 of the witness's statement, D556.  The English

 3     is on page 22.  And I see the B/C/S has already been located.

 4        Q.   So in paragraph 55, you give that date; right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have P4582?  This will be

 7     Radovan Karadzic's speech at the 42nd session of the Bosnian Serb

 8     Assembly.  I'll be looking for page 6 in the English and the bottom of

 9     page 4 in the B/C/S.

10             And what he says is:  "On 18 March" -- begins in the middle of

11     the page in the English.

12             "On 18 March we won the battle for" --

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Where is it in the B/C/S?

14             MR. TRALDI:  At the bottom of the page, as I said, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I missed that, sorry.

16             MR. TRALDI:  That's all right.

17             "On 18 March we won the battle for our republic.  We won it on

18     18 March, thanks to the skill of Mr. Krajisnik."

19             And he gives some additional details.  And then three lines from

20     the bottom, and turning to the top of page 5 in the B/C/S, ten lines from

21     the top exactly, he says:

22             "Then Alija said yes to three Bosnias for the first time and that

23     it would be an ethnic basis and that was fatal for him.  They showed us

24     completely unacceptable maps but Cutileiro said you can accept this as a

25     basis for further discussion.  Then we" --


Page 23913

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  We move to the next page in English.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 3             "Then we seized it with both hands, yes, as a basis for further

 4     discussion, yes.  It was important to us that it was in three, that it

 5     was on a territorial basis, and that there was some kind of map in

 6     existence by which we could establish our right to territory as between

 7     45 and 50 per cent, you know what Cutileiro's map looked like.  Then

 8     Bosnia exploded, then we were accepted as a side in the conflict.  The

 9     international community made a serious mistake because they sent

10     Cutileiro and Carrington to us before the war because they accepted us as

11     a side in the conflict.  If they had ignored us and kept quiet,

12     recognised Bosnia and said afterwards that there was some kind of

13     insurrectionists there who were wrecking their own state, we would be in

14     serious difficulties, nobody would be talking to us."

15        Q.   Now, that's a lengthy excerpt but I'll have a few specific

16     questions for you about it.

17             First, Mr. Karadzic is clear that the Bosnian Serb leadership

18     found the maps attached to the Cutileiro Plan completely unacceptable;

19     right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And had no intention of accepting those maps as they were; right?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   He's saying, I'd put to you, that the Bosnian Serbs' goal was to

24     use the plan to lock in their right to a separate ethnic entity while

25     subsequently seeking control of more territory than was granted them in


Page 23914

 1     the plan.  Isn't that right?

 2        A.   That is the same percentage as contained in the Dayton Accords,

 3     between 45 and 50.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, that wasn't the question.  Would you please

 5     answer the question?  Mr. Traldi will repeat it if you ask him to do so.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Please.

 7             MR. TRALDI:

 8        Q.   I'd put to you that Mr. Karadzic is saying that the

 9     Bosnian Serbs' goal was to use the plan to lock in their right to a

10     separate ethnic entity while subsequently seeking control of more

11     territory than was granted them in the plan.  Isn't that right?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Now, that's a different picture of their position on the

14     Cutileiro Plan than the one you paint in your statement, isn't it?

15        A.   I stated what the general position was vis-ā-vis the

16     Cutileiro Plan rather than discussing any territorial details.

17        Q.   And the Bosnian Serb leadership at this -- at the time of the

18     plan, 18th of March, already claimed territory which went beyond the

19     territory they would have been granted by the Cutileiro Plan; right?

20        A.   I really don't know that.

21             MR. TRALDI:  Well, let's look at P4580.  This is the record of

22     the 11th session of the RS Assembly, dated the 18th of March.  I'm going

23     to ask that we turn to page 10 in the English and 12 in the B/C/S.

24             Sorry, to 38 in the English and 56 in the B/C/S.

25             Do we have both?  At the bottom of the page, in the English --


Page 23915

 1     I'm not certain where it appears in the B/C/S.  I see a 54 on the page.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  That seems to -- I saw a reference to Bosanska Krupa

 3     on the page we previously had on our screen.  It was the second

 4     paragraph.  I might be mistaken.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  I strongly suspect Your Honour is correct, then.

 6     Yes.  Exactly, Your Honour.  Thank you.

 7        Q.   So what Mr. Vjestica says, speaking of his own municipality, is:

 8             "Bosanska Krupa is a textbook example, it's been six months now

 9     since the current MUP, inspections or other services have not been to our

10     Serbian territories around Mount Grmic, into this area of Serbian

11     municipalities.  They cannot, we do not let them.  They do not dare to.

12     We have de facto occupied our own territories."

13             And we will turn to the next page in English.

14             "But here, we must reach an agreement that all Serbs, in all

15     municipalities, both the newly formed and the existing ones, take over

16     the power because we have not taken over.  Mr. President, I think that

17     you have to give us an order, that after the next session of the Assembly

18     you should order this, that we arrange it for the areas where it has not

19     been done and to implement this, that the Serbs should occupy their

20     territories so that no other forces could enter them.  Thank you."

21             And then it reflects there is applause.

22             So that municipality, Bosanska Krupa --

23             MR. LUKIC:  I'm sorry for interrupting.  I'm on B/C/S channel now

24     and there is really a wrong typo, typo mistake in this text, and the

25     translators are reading it that way.  It says "dvoje" and it has no


Page 23916

 1     sense.  It should be "svoje" so the Professor is not confused.  Or as it

 2     is translated in English, "Our territories."

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  If it is an obvious mistake, Mr. Lukic, we

 4     appreciate --

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Because "dvoje" also has a meaning so it's not

 6     obvious.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  If it's not obvious you shouldn't have discussed it

 8     in the presence of the witness.  That's the reason why I'm saying that.

 9     You consider the original B/C/S to be -- to contain a typo where it says

10     "svoje" -- no --

11             MR. LUKIC:  "Dvoje."

12             MR. TRALDI:  Could I just ask that the witness take the

13     headphones off.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I think the witness may well understand the English

15     language.  You take off your ear-phones.

16             MR. LUKIC:  It's not a big issue.  I just do not want this

17     witness to be confused.  "Dvoje" means "both," "svoje" means "our."  So

18     he could get the impression that somebody wants to take two territories,

19     both territories.  And "svoje" means "our" territory.  So if it's

20     translated into English as "svoje," I think it's correct.  But still it

21     was read the way it was written in this document.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I see that the last two words of the previous

23     paragraph do say "svoje" territory.  Because we started reading at the

24     Bosanska Krupa school example, I think it was.

25             MR. TRALDI:  Yeah, "skolski primjer."


Page 23917

 1             MR. LUKIC:  In both paragraphs.  First paragraph that was read,

 2     three lines from the bottom of that paragraph, on the left-hand side, it

 3     says, "dvoje teritorija."  And the same in the next paragraph, second

 4     line from the bottom, also says, "dvoje teritorija."

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and in the previous paragraph, it says,

 6     "svoje teritorija," last two words.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  That's right, but that paragraph, I don't know if

 8     it's read out or not --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  No, it was not read out but the following paragraph

10     was not -- yes, was read out.

11             But should occupy, you say, our territories.  Is that what you --

12             MR. LUKIC:  I think it's logical as it was translated into

13     English but the witness should hear the same.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, I think the meaning would be, if you

15     occupied their territories you make it your territory but the claim is

16     that they are our territories already and now to be occupied by the

17     Serbs.  That's -- I think the meaning is not that much different although

18     differently phrased.

19             MR. TRALDI:  I'm happy to read it as I initially did and have the

20     booth translate my words to the witness if that would be agreeable to

21     Mr. Lukic.

22             MR. LUKIC:  Absolutely.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

24             MR. TRALDI:

25        Q.   And it's the last sentence before the word "applause," sir.


Page 23918

 1             So that last sentence reads from the beginning --

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Only the witness has to have his headphones --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  The witness has to put his earphones on.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  Of course, sorry.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  We had a small linguistic problem, Mr. Kecmanovic.

 6     Mr. Traldi will now continue.

 7             MR. TRALDI:

 8        Q.   I'm going to reread that sentence.  It begins:

 9             "Mr. President, I think that you have to give us an order that

10     after the next session of the Assembly you should order this, that we

11     arrange it for the areas where it has not been done and to implement

12     this, that the Serbs should occupy their territories so that no other

13     forces could enter them.  Thank you."

14             And then it reflects applause.

15             Now, Mr. Vjestica's own municipality, Bosanska Krupa, was not

16     granted to the Bosnian Serbs by the Cutileiro Plan, was it?

17        A.   I'm really not aware of such territorial details of the

18     Cutileiro Plan, at least not precisely.  I don't know whether Bosanska

19     Krupa was made part of it or not.

20             MR. TRALDI:  Well, could we have 65 ter 30950?  And this is a map

21     colour coded to represent the Cutileiro Plan.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Is there any disagreement about the matter between

23     Prosecution and Defence?  Bosanska Krupa not to be Serb in the

24     Cutileiro Plan because otherwise we just put it to the witness if the

25     parties agree on it.


Page 23919

 1             MR. TRALDI:  I'm going to go through the map in a little more

 2     detail.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  I'm afraid that I don't know the Cutileiro Plan that

 4     well.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please proceed then as you suggested.

 6             MR. TRALDI:

 7        Q.   So if we look to the northwest, Bosanska Krupa bears the colour

 8     code for a Muslim area; right?  You can see on the legend that the pale

 9     colour is for Muslim areas?

10        A.   I see it, yes.

11        Q.   And Prijedor and Sanski Most are also colour coded for Muslim

12     areas; right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Just to the southeast of there, can you see Donji Vakuf also

15     colour coded for a Muslim area?  Just south of Jajce and east of Kupres

16     and Sipovo?

17        A.   I see it.

18        Q.   And looking to the east of the country, along the Drina River,

19     Zvornik, Vlasenica, Bratunac, Visegrad, Srebrenica, Rogatica, and Foca,

20     those are all colour coded as Muslim areas; right?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Are you familiar with an area known as the Posavina corridor?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And the Posavina corridor is not entirely coded red for a Serb

25     area, is it?  There are portions colour coded for Muslim and then some


Page 23920

 1     municipalities that are blue for Croat?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Now, the areas I just mentioned were all claimed by the Bosnian

 4     Serbs, though; right?

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We cannot hear the

 6     witness, he is speaking off mike.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you please speak into the microphone?  The

 8     interpreters can't hear you.  And repeat your answer.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the document you quoted a moment

10     ago, there is only a reference to Bosanska Krupa.

11             MR. TRALDI:

12        Q.   I understand that.  I also know that you're aware of the Serb

13     autonomous regions that had been declared at this time.  And I'd put to

14     you that the regions I just mentioned, with a couple of exceptions, are

15     part of those Serb autonomous regions and were all part of the Serbs'

16     territorial claims.  That's true, isn't it?

17        A.   Yes.

18             MR. TRALDI:  And for the Chamber's reference, the SAOs are

19     reflected in P3930 and a map at P178, page 6.

20        Q.   And, sir, the Chamber has received evidence that the

21     Bosnian Serbs took control of almost all of the areas I just mentioned

22     during 1992, many of them as early as April 1992.  Were you aware of

23     that?

24        A.   Was that before or after the Cutileiro Plan which was rejected by

25     the Muslim side?


Page 23921

 1        Q.   That's after the Cutileiro Plan.  After the 18th of March.

 2        A.   After it was rejected?

 3        Q.   Sir, you're here to testify.  What's your evidence as to when you

 4     say the Muslim side withdrew from the Cutileiro Plan?

 5        A.   I was trying to say the following:  Any territorial changes as

 6     compared to the Cutileiro Plan occurred after it was rejected.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, carefully listen to the question.  When do

 8     you say the Muslim side withdrew from the Cutileiro Plan?  That was the

 9     question.  Would you please answer the question.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know when precisely but

11     upon return from Lisbon, after it was initialled.

12             MR. TRALDI:

13        Q.   So I'd put this as April 1992.  The Cutileiro Plan, we have

14     explained, Karadzic presented to the Assembly on the 18th of March.  But

15     I'd put to you again that many of these territories were taken over by

16     the Bosnian Serbs as early as April 1992.  That's true, isn't it?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   In fact, yesterday you testified that the Bosnian mobilisation on

19     the 4th of April, 1992, had "practically meant introducing war into

20     Bosnia and Herzegovina."  Fighting had already broken out, including in

21     Bijeljina, before that, hadn't it?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And so it's not true, is it, to say that war was introduced to a

24     place where the war had already started?

25        A.   There had been local skirmishes before, but I wanted to say that


Page 23922

 1     in general terms, war broke out in Bosnia after that.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I tender this map.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar?

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Only -- sorry, only one thing.  I don't know if it's

 5     only me, but I can see on the left, top left corner, for four

 6     municipalities different colour, like greenish, Velika Kladusa, Cazin,

 7     Bihac, Bosanska Krupa.  So is there any explanation for that on this map?

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, it seems to be right and even in the

 9     legend it seems lightly greenish as well, but isn't this specifically a

10     matter the parties could agree on?  I take it that maps to the

11     Cutileiro Plan are somewhere in official documents.

12             MR. TRALDI:  There is one already in evidence.  It's harder to

13     work with visually on the screen which is why I've used this one but I --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  And greenish and white here is the same for you and

15     is at least not red and not blue.

16             MR. TRALDI:  I agree that both green and white are neither red

17     nor blue.  If Mr. Lukic would like, I can refer him to the one that's in

18     evidence, somewhat harder to work with, and he can double check that it

19     corresponds and we can come back to the matter.  If that would suit

20     everyone.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Lukic, the Chamber will admit this map into

22     evidence but you're free to revisit the matter if the green and white

23     causes problems of substance.

24             Madam Registrar?

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30950 receives number P6665,


Page 23923

 1     Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  P6665 is admitted.

 3             MR. TRALDI:  And for Mr. Lukic's reference, the map to which

 4     I referred is at Exhibit P3106, page 4.  And came in as an associated

 5     exhibit to the evidence of Witness Okun.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 7             MR. TRALDI:

 8        Q.   I want to turn now, sir, to three meetings you mention in your

 9     statement which occurred soon after the failure of the Cutileiro Plan.

10     First, a meeting at the Terme Hotel, and for reference this is discussed

11     at paragraph 16 of your statement.  Do you recall that meeting?

12        A.   It was a long time ago but I do remember in general terms.

13        Q.   So I have just simple questions for you about this.  Nothing

14     specific was discussed at that meeting by way of plans or proposals that

15     might have achieved peace, was it?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Is your answer that I'm correct that nothing specific was

18     discussed at that meeting that might have achieved peace?  Is that right?

19        A.   Yes, yes.

20        Q.   And nothing of value came out of that meeting, did it?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And next, you discuss a meeting between Mr. Izetbegovic and

23     Mr. Krajisnik about dividing Sarajevo so that Muslims would control the

24     city centre and Serbs would control the suburbs.  Do you recall that

25     meeting?


Page 23924

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And Mr. Koljevic, who you mention in your statement, told you

 3     that Mr. Karadzic had also agreed to the plan discussed at that meeting;

 4     right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And he would have had to due to his role; right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  I'm going to ask now that Ms. Stewart play a clip

 9     from "Death of Yugoslavia" and that we look at how Mr. Krajisnik and

10     Mr. Izetbegovic described the meeting.  That's 65 ter 30851A.

11     I understand the translation has been confirmed by CLSS.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  If that's the case, we can play it once.

13                           [Video-clip played]

14             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Izetbegovic:  When the cannons

15     above the city started pounding, when the destruction of the city was

16     under way, Krajisnik offered that we meet, to strike a deal on Sarajevo,

17     as he put it."

18             [In English] "Anchor:  They chose the now abandoned parliament

19     building for their secret talk."

20             [Interpretation] "Krajisnik:  I arrived first.  It was already

21     dark.

22             "Izetbegovic:  Before this, we were friends, in a way.  We were

23     like friends because we had worked together in the parliament for some

24     time before that.

25             "Krajisnik:  Then I saw their security men.  They had automatic


Page 23925

 1     rifles with silencers or something like that, and I said:  'Is that what

 2     you call a gun?  The Serbs are much better equipped.'  I was just trying

 3     to be funny.

 4             "Izetbegovic:  He told me:  There is no way to avoid dividing the

 5     city.

 6             "Krajisnik:  We had always been thinking about dividing Sarajevo

 7     so Muslims had their part and the Serbs theirs.  This is no secret.

 8             "Izetbegovic:  I did not accept the division.  I turned him down.

 9     We said goodbye and he gave me a pen as a memento."

10             MR. TRALDI:

11        Q.   Now, Mr. Krajisnik is clear there that the Serbs always intended

12     to divide Sarajevo; correct?

13        A.   I apologise.  I wouldn't say that he said that they always had

14     that intention.  It was only in those conditions, the wartime conditions,

15     that were then a reality in Sarajevo.

16        Q.   So you would agree with me that by the time of this meeting, the

17     Serbs intended to divide Sarajevo; right?

18        A.   That was a proposal put forth by Krajisnik, put forth to

19     Izetbegovic.

20        Q.   And then, yes, they clearly had that intent, right, if they were

21     proposing it?

22        A.   The intention was ad hoc, it had to do with a situation in which

23     we were all -- in which we found ourselves, the wartime condition.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, could we have the transcription of the

25     video footage on our screen so that if the witness says this is not what


Page 23926

 1     Krajisnik said, that we with verify that?

 2             MR. TRALDI:  Yes, Mr. President.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  And by rephrasing your question, I understood that

 4     to be a confirmation of the correct understanding of the witness of what

 5     was said.

 6             MR. TRALDI:  It was my attempt to move efficiently,

 7     Mr. President, and focus on what I was interested in.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  If it's just for practical purposes then

 9     we -- okay, please proceed.

10             MR. TRALDI:  If you look at the bottom, Mr. Krajisnik says:

11             "We had had always been thinking about dividing Sarajevo."

12             So that's the text that he actually speaks.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

14             MR. TRALDI:  And that's the text that the interpreters read

15     during the video.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, you're right.

17             MR. TRALDI:

18        Q.   And we are agreed, too, I think, that by the time of this

19     meeting, the Serbs intended to divide Sarajevo?

20        A.   Perhaps there is miscommunication here.  There was a front line

21     around the Sarajevo -- around Sarajevo, and Krajisnik's proposal was to

22     maintain that situation until the Bosnia-Herzegovina situation is finally

23     resolved.

24        Q.   Sir, I'm not suggesting -- I'm not asking you about which part

25     would be under the control of the Muslims and which part would be under


Page 23927

 1     the control of the Serbs.  What I'm asking you is what Mr. Krajisnik

 2     clearly says in this video, and what you've said was his proposal at that

 3     time, that was what the Bosnian Serb leadership intended at that time;

 4     right?

 5        A.   At that point in time, yes.

 6             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I tender this clip 65 ter 30851A.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar?

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30851A receives number P6666,

 9     Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  P6666 is admitted into evidence.

11             MR. TRALDI:

12        Q.   As for the third meeting you mention in your statement, that was

13     at Lukavica, and you discussed with Momcilo Krajisnik whether you should

14     join the Izetbegovic Presidency.  That's correct too, isn't it?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Now, you don't mention this in your statements but Mr. Koljevic

17     called your home the evening before you were supposed to join the

18     Presidency; right?

19        A.   I don't remember talking with him.

20             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 30941?

21        Q.   And I think I'd suggest to you, maybe it would refresh your

22     recollection, if you weren't at home at the time and he spoke to your

23     wife.  Is that correct?

24        A.   It is possible that he spoke with some member of my family.  The

25     phone lines were on.


Page 23928

 1             MR. TRALDI:  Could I have page 142 of this document?

 2        Q.   This is your testimony in the Krajisnik case.  Now, the eve of

 3     your entry into the Presidency, that would have been around the

 4     31st of May, 1992; right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Now, reading starting at line 11, you're testifying, and you say:

 7             "I'm reminding you of this and what I said yesterday.  When you

 8     read this out, I happened to remember, for example, that on the eve of my

 9     entry into the Presidency, becoming a member of the Presidency,

10     Nikola Koljevic called up by phone but didn't find me at home, so he

11     talked to my wife.  He told her that it wouldn't be a good idea; quite

12     the contrary, it would be bad thing if I were to join the Presidency,

13     that that would be a great detriment to the Serb people.  My wife

14     recounted that conversation ..."

15             I take it she recounted the conversation to you and that's how

16     you learned of it; right?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And you stand by your testimony in this respect, given in the

19     Krajisnik case?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   So Mr. Koljevic did call and say it would be bad for the Serb

22     people if you joined the Izetbegovic Presidency?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   That was for public relations reasons essentially; correct?

25        A.   I didn't quite understand the question.


Page 23929

 1        Q.   Well, you were -- he was concerned, wasn't he, that it would

 2     enable the Izetbegovic Presidency to portray itself as a multi-ethnic

 3     institution that had Bosnian Muslim and Bosnian Croat and Bosnian Serb

 4     members; right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Now, the Presidency -- I'm done with this testimony now.

 7             The Izetbegovic Presidency discussed, in your presence, the

 8     problem of people being expelled from the territories where they lived by

 9     force, didn't they?

10        A.   Yes.

11             MR. TRALDI:  Can 65 ter 30944 be called to our screens?  It's an

12     excerpt from the transcript of the 128th BH Presidency session dated the

13     24th of June, 1992.

14        Q.   You attended that session; correct?

15        A.   Can you please just check on top of the page?  You can see

16     whether I was present.

17        Q.   I think the top of the page again doesn't have a list of

18     attendees, but if we turn to page 3 in the English and 4 in the B/C/S

19     I think we might find your name.  You'll see it's second or third down,

20     rather, on each page.  Between Pelivan and Pelivan.  Do you see your

21     name?

22        A.   Yes, yes, I see it.

23        Q.   Now, we see here Mr. Akmadzic discussing prerequisites, at the

24     top he's clearly discussing negotiations that lead to peace, and then

25     below your name he says:


Page 23930

 1             "There are prerequisites which are cease of war operations,

 2     recognition of the single system of government, and negotiations which

 3     have as their foundation the creation of pure ethnic territories cannot

 4     be accepted."

 5             Do you see that?

 6        A.   I see it.

 7        Q.   So the Presidency is discussing avoiding the creation of pure

 8     ethnic territories?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Now, to be fair, turning to the next page in both languages, you

11     take part in the discussion?

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we have a look at that page?

13             MR. TRALDI:

14        Q.   And you propose a particular formulation:

15             "That begins with the pre-war situation in respect of that

16     picture or national structure, the demographic structure in BiH, that

17     this be the starting point and not some that no changes of any kind will

18     be accepted in the national structure of the population that have been

19     produced by war, moving away, et cetera."

20             That was your proposal; correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And you responded with this formulation because you were aware at

23     this point that there had been changes in the national structure of the

24     population; correct?

25        A.   On all three sides, a lot of people had left Sarajevo.


Page 23931

 1        Q.   And changes on all three sides that had been produced by war;

 2     right?

 3        A.   That's correct.

 4        Q.   And by people moving away in fear of that war and of other things

 5     that were happening at the time?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  Could we turn to the next page in both languages,

 8     please?

 9             We see there is more discussion, and at the very bottom of the

10     page in English, Mr. Izetbegovic says:

11             "So this provision needs to be woven in somewhere, about

12     non-acceptance," and then we will turn to the next page in English, "of

13     any -- any change to the demographic picture, to the demographic

14     situation that were created by war."

15             And you respond below it:

16             "Those are territorial ethnic changes caused by violence, war,

17     genocide, moving away, et cetera."

18             And again, you were aware that changes in the ethnic structure of

19     Bosnia's population were occurring for all those reasons; right?

20        A.   This quote, I believe, is incorrect and I can tell because the

21     reference to Halil -- there is a reference to Halil which would refer to

22     General Halilovic and that's not the way that I called him or addressed

23     him.  This must have been what Izetbegovic said because he used that form

24     to address him.  However, it doesn't really differ much from the earlier

25     quotes.


Page 23932

 1        Q.   I think you're reading a different quote of yours.  I direct your

 2     attention to the bottom of the page.  Do you see what you've said there?

 3             "Those are territorial ethnic changes caused by violence, war,

 4     genocide, moving away, et cetera."

 5        A.   Yes, yes.

 6        Q.   [Microphone not activated] That's you speaking, right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And you knew at that time that changes in the ethnic makeup of

 9     Bosnia and Herzegovina were happening for all those reasons?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And you'd received reports in the Presidency that people were

12     moving out, Muslims and Croats were moving out of Serb-claimed

13     territories for all those reasons; right?

14        A.   I knew directly only the fact that Serbs were trying to flee

15     Sarajevo, and as for the other thing, I knew that indirectly through

16     reports.

17        Q.   Sir, you're speaking of territorial ethnic changes.  You've said

18     in your statement that Serbs were being stopped from leaving Sarajevo.

19     So I'd put to you that when you're speaking of territorial ethnic

20     changes, you're speaking of changes in the makeup of Serb-claimed

21     territories that were being reported to you and to the other members of

22     the Presidency.  That's true, isn't it?

23        A.   Yes.  That is what I say there.

24             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I tender this document.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar?


Page 23933

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30944 receives number P6667,

 2     Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  P6667 is admitted.

 4             Mr. Traldi, if you're moving to another subject, I think we are

 5     close to the time where we would take a break.

 6             MR. TRALDI:  I think it's an excellent time for a break,

 7     Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Witness, we will take a break of 20 minutes.

 9     You may follow the usher.

10                           [The witness stands down]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at 10 minutes past mid-day.

12                           --- Recess taken at 11.50 a.m.

13                           --- On resuming at 12.17 p.m.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  We have a late start due to technical problems,

15     which seem to be resolved.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Mr. Traldi and me are using body language because we

17     are trying to fit into today's schedule to finish with this witness.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Usually it's the Chamber to be blamed for it, but

19     now it's really technical problems that --

20             MR. TRALDI:  I'm just trying to get LiveNote up and running

21     before we start, but I think we will be able to share the remaining time

22     basically evenly.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  It's good to hear that the Chamber doesn't need to

24     encourage you to pay proper attention to this issue, because if the

25     witness could leave today, before the weekend, that would be good, or at


Page 23934

 1     least during the weekend and not to stay over.

 2                           [The witness takes the stand]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 5             Could we have 65 ter 30946.

 6        Q.   This will be an interview published in Belgrade Borba, an

 7     interview with you, in which you discuss territorial ethnic changes of

 8     the sort that we were discussing before the break.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  If we could have page 2 in the English and the top

10     of the far right column on page 1 in the B/C/S.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you zoom in, please?  I can't

12     really read.  It's too fine print.

13             MR. TRALDI:

14        Q.   Of course.

15             MR. TRALDI:  The top of the far right column for the witness.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Can you read it now, Witness, because --

17             MR. TRALDI:  And it's the right column, middle of the page in the

18     English.

19        Q.   Now, you're asked:

20             "Do you have a personal position on the criteria according to

21     which that split should be carried out?"

22             And you answer:

23             "In my opinion, only two criteria are possible.  One is for the

24     split to be carried out in accordance with shares in the national

25     structure of the population.  In other words, for each people to receive


Page 23935

 1     approximately as much territory as the percentage that it represents in

 2     the total number of inhabitants of BH.  The one who has a third of the

 3     population cannot claim two-thirds of the territory or vice versa.  Or,

 4     since there are three constituent peoples, the criterion may be that the

 5     total territory should be divided into three approximately equal parts.

 6     The Serbs would receive approximately the same thing under both criteria,

 7     while the Muslims and Croats would fare very differently in one case or

 8     the other."

 9             So my first question:  This refers to dividing the control of

10     territory in Bosnia-Herzegovina on an ethnic basis; right?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Second, as I understand it, you're suggesting here that the RS,

13     the Bosnian Serbs, should have been entitled to approximately one-third

14     of the land, whichever of those criteria was applied; right?

15        A.   Yes.

16             MR. TRALDI:  Turning to page 4 in the English, and looking at the

17     box on the bottom of page 1 in the B/C/S, bottom centre, we see the

18     heading, "Aggressors and aggressors," a little lower on the page in the

19     B/C/S than where we are now.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Traldi, could you check if we have the right

21     portion in the B/C/S?

22             MR. TRALDI:  We don't yet.  Could we zoom out for a moment?  And

23     it's where it says at the very bottom centre, "Agresor i agresor."

24        Q.   You're asked a question here:

25             "If the Serbs are not the aggressors as they claim in contrast to


Page 23936

 1     the world, then how can one justify the fact that they have used weapons

 2     to conquer more than two-thirds of the territory in spite of the fact

 3     that they only have one-third of the population in BH?"

 4             Now, you were aware that Bosnian Serbs were claiming two-thirds

 5     of the territory at this time; right?

 6        A.   Yes, they had under their control about 70 per cent of the

 7     territory, I think.

 8        Q.   And this is as of August 1992.  Now, you answer:

 9             "The problem is that in BH, neither the first side nor the second

10     nor the third has shown any willingness, either in peace or war, to

11     respect any sort of principles of justice, tolerance, respect for the

12     interests of others, et cetera.  Just as in parliamentary competition,

13     i.e. in the political phase, the Muslims and Croats did not shrink from

14     abusing their numerical superiority to outvote the Serbian side, the

15     Serbian side did not shrink from using its advantage in heavy weapons in

16     wartime conditions."

17             And that's right, isn't it, that the Serbs had used their

18     advantage in heavy weapons throughout the months leading up to

19     August 1992 when you gave this interview?

20        A.   Yes.  Well, owing to that, they actually placed under their

21     control 70 per cent of the territory.

22        Q.   Those are the territories from which, in the Bosnian Serb

23     Presidency, you'd received -- or sorry, in the Bosnian Presidency, you'd

24     received reports that there were territorial ethnic changes occurring

25     because of violence and war and genocide; right?


Page 23937

 1        A.   Could you please repeat your question?

 2        Q.   That 70 per cent of the territory you just mentioned, that's the

 3     territory where, when you were in the Bosnian Presidency, you received

 4     reports that there were territorial ethnic changes occurring because of

 5     violence and war and genocide; right?

 6        A.   Those reports did not show the situation in the Mostar valley

 7     where the situation was reversed, where the Serbs were victims.

 8        Q.   So --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  That's not an answer to the question, I think.

10     Could you please answer the question?  You were shown a little time ago

11     part of the minutes of a meeting in which you said something, and the

12     question now is whether the 70 per cent you mentioned a minute ago is

13     about territories, as you said in that meeting, that they were ethnically

14     changed or the ethnic changes were occurring because of violence and war

15     of genocide, whether you were talking about approximately the same

16     territories.  Or at least those 70 per cent to be included in what you

17     said during that meeting.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Probably.

19             MR. TRALDI:

20        Q.   And by this point you'd been in Belgrade for two months; right?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Meeting with Serb officials in the SFRY government, like

23     President Cosic?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   This continued to be your opinion as to what was happening on the


Page 23938

 1     ground in Bosnia, didn't it?  The Serb side was using its advantage in

 2     heavy weapons?

 3        A.   What is the question?

 4        Q.   Actually I have a couple more quotes to show you from the article

 5     and I'll ask it then.  At the end of the paragraph that we are looking

 6     at, you say:

 7             "With respect to the territorial ambitions of the Serbian side,

 8     double its share in the national structure of the population, it is

 9     strange that people are keeping silent about the fact that today we have

10     completely symmetrical conduct on the Croatian side.  Naturally both are

11     equally unacceptable."

12             Your view was that Serb and territorial -- sorry, Serb and Croat

13     territorial claims were both unacceptable; right?

14        A.   Could you please read the quote, the part that you're quoting,

15     through the end so that my point can be clear?

16        Q.   I think I did.  It reads:

17             "With respect to the territorial ambitions of the Serbian side,

18     double its share in the national structure of the population, it is

19     strange that people are keeping silent about the fact that today we have

20     completely symmetrical conduct on the Croatian side.  Naturally both are

21     equally unacceptable."

22             And what I asked you was:  It was your position then, wasn't it,

23     that Serb and Croat territorial claims in Bosnia-Herzegovina were

24     unacceptable?

25        A.   Yes.


Page 23939

 1        Q.   Turning to page 3 in the English and page 2, left-most column in

 2     the B/C/S, you're asked at the bottom of the page in English, and the

 3     middle of the left column in the B/C/S, under "Everyone in his own

 4     crowd":

 5             "Then you do not believe in the proclaimed return of all the

 6     refugees as a countermeasure to the partially implemented ethnic

 7     cleansing" --

 8        A.   Could you please zoom in?

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Only on the left column.

10        Q.   It's the top quote, you can see "etnicko ciscenje" in the B/C/S.

11     So I've read the question.  You respond:

12             "Unfortunately, I think that there will be much" --

13        A.   [No interpretation]

14        Q.   Let me finish your answer, sir.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We need the right portion on the screen --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  The witness is -- yes.  And the witness is

17     apparently not able to follow it.  Could we --

18             MR. TRALDI:

19        Q.   Do you see the first question you're asked under:  "Svako svome

20     jatu [phoen]"?

21        A.   [No interpretation]

22        Q.   And that's the question I read out a moment ago, isn't it?  You

23     have to articulate your answer for the record, sir.

24        A.   I would appreciate it if you could read it one more time because

25     I wasn't able to follow earlier.


Page 23940

 1        Q.   Happy to do it.

 2             "Then you do not believe in the proclaimed return of all the

 3     refugees as a countermeasure to the partially implemented ethnic

 4     cleansing."

 5             And you answer:

 6             "Unfortunately, I think that there will be much more territorial

 7     and ethnic concentration during the upcoming peace than was done in this

 8     regard by war operations, destruction, and expulsions."

 9             And it was your position at the time that the ethnic

10     concentration that had occurred up to this point had been caused by war

11     operations, destruction, and expulsions; right?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And you said earlier you'd been in Belgrade for two months at

14     this time, you'd been meeting with Serb officials in the SFRY, senior

15     officials, that remained your position as of this time, end of

16     August 1992?

17        A.   Yes, for the most part.

18             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 18097?

19        Q.   This is another interview you gave around the same time.  I'll be

20     looking for the third and fourth paragraphs.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, I noticed that in the English

22     translation, names are mentioned again and again where they appear not to

23     be in the original.  Now, could you -- not in this one but the previous

24     one.  Could you carefully check that there are no other new elements

25     introduced?  You see it's always Vucinic, Kecmanovic.  Now, it may well


Page 23941

 1     be that it's explained in the beginning but it certainly does not appear

 2     in the original text, and therefore that always raises some concern.

 3             MR. TRALDI:  I believe the names you've mentioned are the

 4     interviewer and the interviewee.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  No doubt about that, but apparently someone has been

 6     editing rather than just translating.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  We are happy to have it reviewed, if that would

 8     assist.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, at least check carefully that that's the only

10     thing and then I take it that there is no major problem, is there?

11     Please proceed.

12             MR. TRALDI:

13        Q.   As to this interview, at the first -- at the top it says

14     Presidency member resigns and we are talking about you here, you'd

15     resigned by the end of August 1992 from the Izetbegovic Presidency;

16     right?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Looking at the third and fourth paragraphs, we read:

19             "The process of dismembering of Bosnia-Herzegovina along its

20     ethnic seams within the internationally recognised territory has gone

21     beyond the point of return, Kecmanovic said on Monday night, explaining

22     the reasons for his resignation.  The Muslim Bosnia, the Croatian

23     Herceg-Bosna, and the Serbian Republic are territorially defined entities

24     with a population ethnically homogenised by force."

25             By that point, large areas of the Republika Srpska had indeed


Page 23942

 1     been ethnically homogenised by force, hadn't they?

 2        A.   Not only by force, but by fear as well.

 3             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 18097.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar?

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 18097 receives number P6668,

 6     Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  P6668 is admitted.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  I'd ask that the previous document, 30944, be marked

 9     for identification and we'll review it as you've suggested,

10     Mr. President.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam -- well --

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Kindly check the number.

13             MR. TRALDI:  I'm told that what I meant was 30946.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I think, as a matter of fact, that at this moment

15     I made an observation in relation to that one.  I expect the Prosecution

16     to carefully look at it, but it's not a reason at this moment not admit

17     yet.  But I leave it open that the parties can revisit, if it turns out

18     that there is more edited than just the names of the interviewer and the

19     interviewee.

20             MR. TRALDI:  I'm in your hands in that respect, Mr. President.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Then you tender it, I take it?

22             MR. TRALDI:  I do.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Madam Registrar?

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30946 receives number P6669,

25     Your Honours.


Page 23943

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  P6669 is admitted into evidence.  And of course

 2     I expect the parties to revisit it pretty soon if there is any reason to

 3     do that.  Please proceed.

 4             MR. TRALDI:

 5        Q.   Now to finish this topic, sir, in paragraph 55 of your statement,

 6     you speak about the movement of populations and you say it was possible,

 7     you believe, to transform Bosnia and Herzegovina territorially and

 8     ethnically without any radical or forced changes to the ethnic structure

 9     on the ground.  Do you remember saying that?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Whether or not it was possible, based on your statements at the

12     time, that's not what happened, is it?

13        A.   There were some official proposals, but they were all rejected by

14     the Muslim side.

15        Q.   So I'd put to you that in your statement, you're saying it was

16     possible to do this when you know, and you said publicly at the time,

17     that what actually happened was that the ethnic composition of Bosnia was

18     transformed in a completely different way, through violence, through war,

19     through genocide.  That's right, isn't it?

20        A.   Yes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Again, the last question, you didn't answer the

22     question, but you thought it more important to give the reasons why you

23     think it didn't happen, and even did not answer the question itself.

24     Could I please ask you again to focus on the question.

25             MR. TRALDI:


Page 23944

 1        Q.   I want to turn now to the Vance-Owen Plan.  I'm going to move

 2     through it very quickly.  I know you're aware of a great many details so

 3     I'm going to make an effort to put to you the key details and ask you to

 4     confirm them.

 5             The plan was based on the idea of a central state of Bosnia with

 6     a number of regions; right?

 7        A.   Yes, more or less, to the extent I can recall.

 8        Q.   It was an attempt to preserve a sovereign multi-ethnic state?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   It was initially met with some reluctance by all three warring

11     parties?

12        A.   Yes, as far as I remember.

13        Q.   In April 1993, Slobodan Milosevic was pressured to support it and

14     he in turn pressured the Bosnian Serb leadership to support it; is that

15     right?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And the Bosnian Serb Assembly met about it in early May 1993;

18     right?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And General Ratko Mladic, the commander of the Bosnian Serb Army,

21     forcefully demonstrated during the Assembly deliberations the amount of

22     land the Serbs would have to give back as part of the plan, and it was

23     then rejected; right?

24        A.   I'm not aware of any details of the Assembly discussion.  I do

25     know that the plan was rejected by the Serbian Assembly, though.


Page 23945

 1             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have Exhibit 1D02002?  This is the

 2     witness's expert report in the Simic case.  And I'm looking for page 41

 3     in the English, 38 in the B/C/S, paragraph 82.  I think we may have a

 4     different page in the B/C/S.  If we could go back three pages.  Now we

 5     have the right page in the B/C/S, and if we could get page 41 in the

 6     English, please.

 7        Q.   Did you -- you wrote this expert report yourself; right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And reading at the end of the paragraph, we see:

10             "The latter," that refers to the Bosnian Serb Assembly, "meeting

11     on 5 and 6 May, voted overwhelmingly against ratification of the

12     Vance-Owen Plan.  On this occasion, as before, it was the map that

13     constituted the biggest problem for the Serbs, something that

14     General Ratko Mladic, the commander of the Bosnian Serb Army, forcefully

15     demonstrated during the Assembly deliberations.  In a referendum held on

16     15 May, the Bosnian Serbs decisively rejected the plan which was now

17     truly dead."

18             Does this refresh your recollection as to whether General Mladic

19     made such a speech at that Assembly session?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And do you stand by what you've written here, that after that

22     speech, the plan was rejected?

23             MR. LUKIC:  I'm sorry, I have to intervene here.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.  Mr. Lukic.

25             MR. LUKIC:  It's not the proper presentation of the evidence.


Page 23946

 1     It's not after the --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, it was after in time, it was after, isn't it?

 3             MR. LUKIC:  After in time, yeah, but it's after my birth as well,

 4     so it's not my fault.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, it is -- first of all, whether it's --

 6     let me first -- if this should be understood as an objection, then it's

 7     denied.

 8             So could you please first answer the question?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We need to be precise, please.

10     Could you read out the sentence in question?  On that occasion as

11     previously --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  Witness, you should first answer the question.

13             MR. TRALDI:

14        Q.   Sir, you can see the sentence.  Do you stand by your evidence as

15     reflected here?

16        A.   I stand by it.  Yes.

17        Q.   And so it's right, isn't it, that after General Mladic's speech

18     on this occasion, the Vance-Owen Plan was rejected?

19        A.   That's not what it says.

20        Q.   Well, it says that he gave a speech at the Assembly session.  It

21     says that the Assembly rejected it.  And it says that then, ten days

22     later, or nine days after the end of the session, the Bosnian Serbs

23     decisively rejected the plan.  You stand by all those things; right?

24        A.   I have in mind the specific issue of General Mladic.  In my

25     report, it is only stated that he --


Page 23947

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me stop you there.  Witness, let me stop you

 2     there.

 3             What we see happening is that a text is put to you, that

 4     apparently Mr. Lukic has some concern as whether the Chamber would

 5     consider a chronology as a causal relationship.  Now, this Chamber is

 6     able to make a distinction between time and causality.  That's one.

 7     Second, whether there is any causal relationship, the Chamber of course

 8     will consider that.  What Mr. Traldi does is that he points to certain

 9     fact which, I take it, Mr. Traldi, you would consider relevant to

10     establish such a causal relationship, and you're not distancing yourself

11     from such a causal relationship, you're only referring to time, but of

12     course there is some suggestion in that.  The Chamber is fully able to

13     cope with that, so neither the witness nor the parties need to have any

14     further concern about the matter.  Please proceed.

15             MR. TRALDI:

16        Q.   Sir, you stand by he gave a speech, after that speech the

17     Assembly voted it down.  On the 15th, the Bosnian Serbs decisively

18     rejected the plan.  That's all true, right?

19        A.   No.  Let us stay with the text precisely.  I didn't write here

20     that following his speech, the Assembly voted it down.  Or rather, that

21     his speech changed the tone of the Assembly.  That's not what one can

22     read from here.  On that occasion, the map was a problem as it had been

23     previously.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you are doing exactly what I asked you not

25     to do:  To be concerned about this Chamber not knowing the difference


Page 23948

 1     between causal relationship and chronology.  Therefore, you demonstrate

 2     now again that you either have not understood me or that you do not wish

 3     to understand me.  Simply, do you stand by the referendum held on the

 4     15th of May decisively rejecting the plan, which was now truly dead, by

 5     the Bosnian Serbs?  Do you stand by that?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If formulated the way you put it,

 7     yes.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you stand by on the 5th and the 6th of May, that

 9     there was an overwhelmingly -- vote overwhelmingly against the

10     ratification of the Vance-Owen Plan?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you stand by the fact, as written here, that the

13     map constituted the biggest problem for the Serbs and that

14     General Ratko Mladic, the commander of the Bosnian Serb Army, forcefully

15     demonstrated that during the Assembly deliberations?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

18             MR. TRALDI:  To just briefly look at the causal issue, I'm going

19     to ask Ms. Stewart to play one more clip.  And this has been given

20     65 ter 22466A.  We have not had the transcript confirmed in this case.

21     We just had it made.  So we may need to play it twice.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  We need to play it twice.  Mr. Kecmanovic, that's

23     for purposes of verification of interpretation.  So you'll see it twice.

24                           [Video-clip played]

25                           [Video-clip played]


Page 23949

 1             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "RM:  We have to show to all those

 2     present the current situation.  Not everyone can see it from up close

 3     like we soldiers can.

 4             "MB:  When we saw those maps, Milosevic and I looked at each

 5     other.  We couldn't understand what he was talking about.

 6             "RM:  It shows the results achieved by our leadership, our people

 7     and our army.

 8             "BP:  It was so clear when he presented two maps.  There was a

 9     factual map and a transparent map showing the Vance-Owen proposals,

10     showing the current situation in the field.  It was very visual.  And the

11     delegates could see how much territory the Serbs would get by the

12     Vance-Owen Plan."

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             MR. TRALDI:

15        Q.   Now, first, that's the speech you were describing in your report;

16     right?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And Ms. Plavsic's reaction reflects the importance of

19     General Mladic's speech in it those deliberations; right?

20        A.   Yes.

21             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 22466A.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic?

23             MR. LUKIC:  I'm sorry, but in front of me on paper I have only

24     B/C/S version and here, on the titles, I read, under line 7,

25     "victorious."  There is no such a word in B/C/S.


Page 23950

 1             MR. TRALDI:  To preserve the time for both of us and ensure we

 2     finish today, I'd be happy to have it MFI'd and talk to Mr. Lukic at the

 3     break.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  It will be MFI'd.  Madam Registrar?

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 22466A receives number P6670,

 6     Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  P6670 is marked for identification pending further

 8     consultation between the parties.  Please proceed.

 9             MR. TRALDI:

10        Q.   I'm going to turn to my last topic now which is your departure

11     from Sarajevo.  Aside from you and Mr. Pejanovic, was there also a Serb

12     named Simovic who had remained part of the BiH government?

13        A.   He was there for a while but he too left Sarajevo later on.

14        Q.   He told you in June of 1992 that there were messages from Pale

15     that you Serbs who remained in the BiH government should leave your posts

16     in Sarajevo; right?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And we've agreed, at that time, it would have been advantageous

19     for the Republika Srpska government if the Serbs who were in the Bosnian

20     government departed.  You'd agree with that; right?

21        A.   That was not my opinion.  You mentioned the conversation

22     involving Mr. Koljevic at the time.

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction -- interpreter's note:

24     Could the witness kindly repeat the end of his answer because he trailed

25     off.


Page 23951

 1             MR. TRALDI:

 2        Q.   I think you need to repeat your answer after saying I mentioned

 3     the conversation with Mr. Koljevic.  The interpreters couldn't hear the

 4     rest.

 5        A.   You mentioned Mr. Koljevic's call and his conversation with my

 6     family suggesting that I do not become a member of the Presidency.

 7     Nevertheless, I did.  And as I used my judgement at the time, I relied on

 8     it again when I left.  It was on my own, of my own accord.

 9        Q.   I want to test that evidence.  Before we do, you agreed with me,

10     I think, when I mentioned that phone call from Mr. Koljevic, that it was

11     a public relations problem for him, for the RS government, that you and

12     other Serbs remained part of the Izetbegovic government; right?

13        A.   No.  I think the conversation took place at the time I was

14     invited to join the government.

15        Q.   That's right.  That would have been a month earlier.  I had put

16     to you at the time --

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   -- that he'd told your wife it would be a detriment to the Serb

19     people for you to join the government.  And you agreed with that.  That's

20     right, isn't it?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And I'd put to you, when we were discussing it, that that was

23     because it would be a public relations problem to have Serbs in what

24     would then appear to be a multi-ethnic, inclusive, Bosnian national

25     government.  I'd put it to you again now.


Page 23952

 1        A.   It is possible that it was their interpretation.  That it was

 2     their opinion.  It certainly wasn't mine.

 3             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 30941, page 144?

 4        Q.   This will be another part of your Krajisnik testimony.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  I don't yet have it on my screen.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  But it's on its way.  I can see that on the screens

 7     before me.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  I lack your foresight, I'm afraid, but it is here

 9     now.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please proceed.

11             MR. TRALDI:

12        Q.   It was put to you:

13             "Well, Professor, I don't want to split hairs about particular

14     people and the reasons they may have entered or remained for a particular

15     period of time, but in the political situation of that moment when the

16     Bosnian government wanted -- was presenting itself as a unitary

17     multi-ethnic government and the -- and Republika Srpska wanted to

18     repudiate or denounce that position, it was advantageous if the Serbs who

19     were in the government departed.  Correct?"

20             And you started your answer by saying:

21             "Yes, you're right.  That is correct."  And then you explained a

22     particular event.

23             Do you stand by your testimony in the Krajisnik case?

24        A.   I do not have that text translated.

25        Q.   But you heard it through your ear-phones; correct?


Page 23953

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  If you want it to be read again because there is no

 2     B/C/S version of this.  There is, but there is an audio which --

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask you to do so.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please read it again, Mr. Traldi.

 5             MR. TRALDI:

 6        Q.   It was put to you -- I'll focus on the critical part of the

 7     question if that's all right.

 8             "... in the political situation of that moment when the Bosnian

 9     government wanted -- was presenting itself as a unitary multi-ethnic

10     government and the -- and Republika Srpska wanted to repudiate or

11     denounce that position, it was advantageous if the Serbs who were in the

12     government departed.  Correct?"

13             And your answer reads:

14             "Yes, you're right.  That is correct."

15             My only question for you at the moment is:  Do you stand by your

16     Krajisnik testimony as truthful?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Now, soon after the conversation you had with Mr. Simovic, in

19     early July 1992, you arranged with Mr. Izetbegovic to go to Lukavica and

20     then to Pale to meet with the Bosnian Serb leadership; right?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   You had to make arrangements because in early July, it wasn't

23     possible to move out of Sarajevo freely; right?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   This had been the case since early May; correct?


Page 23954

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  Now, could we have 65 ter 02451?  These are the

 3     minutes of the 14th session of the Republika Srpska Presidency.  It's

 4     held 3 July 1992.

 5        Q.   That's just before you left Sarajevo; right?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   If we could turn to page 2 in both languages, item 12 is a

 8     conclusion that:

 9             "Mr. Kecmanovic, Mr. Pejanovic, Mr. Simovic, Mr. Nikolic and

10     other Serbs shall be publicly invited to withdraw from their positions in

11     official bodies of the Republic of BH or to publicly renounce their role

12     as representatives of the Serbian people in those organs."

13             Do you see that text?

14        A.   I see it.

15             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 02452?  These are the minutes

16     of the 15th session of the Republika Srpska Presidency.  This session is

17     held 6 July 1992.

18        Q.   That's around when you left Sarajevo; right?

19        A.   Yes.

20             MR. TRALDI:  Now, I'm particularly interested in item 3 for which

21     we need to turn to the bottom of page 2 in the English and to page 3 in

22     the B/C/S.

23        Q.   This indicates that Dr. Koljevic and Momcilo Krajisnik were

24     appointed to talk to you, Professor Kecmanovic, and determine conditions

25     for your resignation.  And it says that in order to resign, you should


Page 23955

 1     present certain demands to Mr. Izetbegovic.  Do you see that text?

 2        A.   I see it.

 3             MR. TRALDI:  If we could turn to item 4, on page 3 in the

 4     English, still on page 3 in the B/C/S.  It's actually just -- it's

 5     point 4 in item 3, so I think I may have confused matters slightly by how

 6     I labelled it, but it's at the top of the page in the English.

 7        Q.   "The Serbian Republic of BH shall amnesty, protect, and enable

 8     all those who resign from the Muslim-Croatian leadership to leave the

 9     Serbian Republic of BH."

10             You see that text as well; right?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   I have a few questions about this document.  First, it's correct

13     that after you left Sarajevo, you met with both Mr. Koljevic and

14     Mr. Krajisnik; right?

15        A.   I also met with other members of the leadership.

16        Q.   Those included Ms. Plavsic and Mr. Karadzic; right?

17        A.   That's right.

18        Q.   Aside from them, you did, just for the clarity of the record,

19     meet with Mr. Koljevic and Mr. Krajisnik; right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And in fact, you told them about the situation in Sarajevo;

22     right?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And they talked to you about the situation around Sarajevo?

25        A.   Yes.


Page 23956

 1        Q.   And it's correct that after those talks, you went by helicopter

 2     to Belgrade?

 3        A.   That's correct.

 4        Q.   You were offered to go with Mr. Karadzic immediately but you went

 5     the following day in a helicopter with Mr. Koljevic; is that right?

 6        A.   That's right.

 7        Q.   So the Bosnian Serb government enabled you to leave the

 8     Republika Srpska; right?

 9        A.   That was agreed in Sarajevo at the Presidency.  It was agreed

10     that I should go both to Pale and Belgrade.

11        Q.   And you never went back to the Izetbegovic Presidency, did you?

12        A.   That's right.

13        Q.   Soon afterwards, you did resign, didn't you?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   So after the document we've just seen was issued, you did meet

16     with the people appointed to negotiate with you, they did enable you to

17     leave Republika Srpska, and you did resign.  That's all true, isn't it?

18        A.   The conversation that is announced here, with the conditions that

19     were presented, such a conversation with Krajisnik and Koljevic did not

20     happen.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I stop you there.  That was not the question.  Did

22     you meet with those?  I think you confirmed that already.  Did they

23     enable to you leave the Republika Srpska?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  And did you resign?


Page 23957

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 3             MR. TRALDI:

 4        Q.   I have one final exhibit.  But before I pull it up, it says here

 5     the Serbian Republic of BH shall amnesty those who resign from the

 6     leadership; right?  At point 4?

 7        A.   I don't know anything about that.  No one said anything of that

 8     nature to me.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 01737E?  Once the transcript

10     comes up, I'll ask Ms. Stewart to play the audio.  This is part of a

11     conversation between General Mladic and President Karadzic recorded on

12     the 2nd of December, 1995, and Mr. Karadzic is speaking at the end of the

13     portion that's been redacted on this page.  The transcript continues to a

14     second page.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  We have the same issue as far as audio or video is

16     concerned.  Now, of course, if there is no disagreement among the parties

17     on whether this reflects the original audio, then of course we could just

18     do it by reading which is -- this is an official translation, I take it,

19     it's not just --

20             MR. TRALDI:  I didn't do it myself, no, Mr. President.  It's an

21     official translation.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, to that extent, of course, it has been

23     verified already.

24             MR. TRALDI:  That's true, Mr. President.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic?  But officially of course our


Page 23958

 1     interpreters are interpreting from audio and not -- so therefore the same

 2     rationale still applies.  Let's hear it twice to be consistent in our

 3     approach.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  That's fine, Mr. President.

 5             I'm not getting anything either so I might just read the relevant

 6     portion if that's more suitable.  I know we are pressed for time.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Please read it to the witness.

 8                           [Audiotape played]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  It should be played again.

10                           [Audiotape played]

11             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Karadzic:  I mean ... it's that

12     little Stankovic, let's say, their man.

13             "Mladic:  And who is Stankovic?

14             "Karadzic:  Stankovic, don't you remember going back to ... he

15     was in the leadership as well ...

16             "Mladic:  I don't know.  Which Kecmanovic, that buffoon of ours

17     who was in ...

18             "Karadzic:  No.

19             "Mladic:  ... with Alija?

20             "Karadzic:  Yes, yes.  If someone says 'join the Presidency,' he

21     would join the Presidency.  But the greatest shame -- the greatest

22     disgrace for him, he's politically dead because -- because of that ..."

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The audio was very

24     unclear.

25             MR. TRALDI:  And we're missing actually the line I was looking


Page 23959

 1     for at the end in what was just read back from the interpreters.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Is there any way to play then again the last, well,

 3     let's say, 10 or 15 seconds?

 4                           [Audiotape played]

 5             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Mladic:  They granted him asylum in

 6     Belgrade."

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 8             MR. TRALDI:

 9        Q.   That's what is described in the previous document as well, right,

10     that members of the Izetbegovic government who resigned would be given

11     asylum?

12        A.   No one ever said anything to that effect to me.

13             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, that completes my examination.  I have

14     the last three documents to tender.  That's 02451, 02452, and 01737E.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar?

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 2451 receives number P6671.

17     Document 2452 receives number P6672.  And document 1737E receives number

18     P6673, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  P6671, 72, and 73 are admitted into evidence.

20             We take a break, Witness.  Mr. Kecmanovic, we would like to see

21     you back in 20 minutes.  You may follow the usher.

22                           [The witness stands down]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Well, I will not be able to finish --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  You'll not be able to finish.


Page 23960

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Obviously.  But then -- so we will --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  How much time would you need?

 3             MR. LUKIC:  With so many documents, probably at least two full

 4     sessions.  I'm ready to stay longer today.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but we have -- the Chamber may have problems.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  I would kindly ask, since we cannot contact the

 7     gentleman, that somebody from the VWS asks him if he can stay.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Or informs him that and asks --

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Maybe -- because we were told -- we fixed his

10     testimony for yesterday and today.  Maybe he has some obligations on

11     Monday, so then we will have to organise his return.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  It could well be.

13             Madam Registrar, could you take care that Victims and Witnesses

14     Section informs the witness that most likely we will not conclude today

15     and that therefore his availability over the weekend and on Monday should

16     be enquired.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  We take a break and then under those circumstances,

19     let's take a break of 23 minutes.  We resume at quarter to 2.00.

20                           --- Recess taken at 1.23 p.m.

21                           --- On resuming at 1.51 p.m.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  We will wait for a second for the witness to be

23     escorted into the courtroom.

24             Earlier I said that the Chamber could not continue to sit this

25     afternoon.  Now, there are many, many problems in doing that.  One of


Page 23961

 1     them, if I understand you well, Mr. Traldi, that you are -- you couldn't

 2     stay, which the Chamber fully accepts.

 3             The other matter is that the Chamber would have to sit 15 bis

 4     because I'm not available this afternoon.

 5             Third, we would need further assistance, we do not know whether

 6     the interpreters will be available because we can't require just

 7     interpreters to stay here forever.  So that is further explored.  So

 8     there are many, many, many reasons.

 9             Then of course we have Mr. Mladic.  If Mr. Mladic says:  It's

10     just too much for me, we have agreed on a certain court schedule, then we

11     will accept that.  If he says:  I want to be present, I want to attend,

12     and this is too much, we will fully accept that.  So there are many, many

13     reasons why we would not continue to sit.

14             However, if all these reasons are resolved, then of course we

15     would consider that.  Now that takes some time.  At least 10 to

16     15 minutes, to find out.  But let's go with the simple matters first.

17     What if we would have two more sessions this afternoon, would that be

18     agreed to by Mr. Mladic, because if not, we will not do it.  Mr. Lukic,

19     could you -- have you discussed the matter?

20                           [Defence counsel and accused confer]

21             MR. LUKIC:  I think there are other preconditions, but Mr. Mladic

22     says if Mr. Kecmanovic has to leave, he will try to be with us for two

23     more sessions.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  If that's -- and then perhaps we should take

25     a bit of a longer break so that -- okay.  That problem seems not too


Page 23962

 1     prohibitive for further hearing the case this afternoon.

 2             Prosecution, I do understand Mr. Traldi has to leave.  It's quite

 3     unusual to replace counsel, but I would like to hear from the Prosecution

 4     whether under the present circumstances --

 5             MR. TRALDI:  Yes, we wouldn't stand in the way of continuing,

 6     Mr. President.  And I appreciate your understanding.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's the second problem resolved.

 8             The third problem, and I have to address my colleagues --

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I convey to everyone that my colleagues would not

11     oppose against sitting, as we call it, 15 bis this afternoon if I would

12     not be present.  That's the third problem resolved.

13             Then the last one is whether we have sufficient support staff,

14     interpreters, security, I do not know.  We need the full team at --

15     court reporter as well.  That's -- of course the court reporter is

16     included in the full team.  And I think it would take us some -- at least

17     a couple of more minutes to find out whether that would be possible.

18             Now, at the same time, I know that one of the Judges has -- still

19     has a question for the witness, which preferably is put to him before the

20     re-examination starts.  Therefore, I am inclined to ask the witness to be

21     escorted into the courtroom so that at least he can answer that question,

22     and hopefully, at the end of this, I could inform him about the results

23     of Madam Registrar trying to compose a full team.

24                           [The witness takes the stand]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kecmanovic, as you've heard, the re-examination


Page 23963

 1     will take considerable time, more than the 15 minutes we have available.

 2     I also do understand that you reported not to be available on Monday.

 3     Therefore, every effort is made to see whether we could continue this

 4     afternoon.  It's highly uncertain whether that's possible, especially

 5     support staff might be the problem.  So therefore, at this moment we do

 6     not know whether we will continue this afternoon or whether you would

 7     have to be recalled at a later stage, and that could not be the end of

 8     July because then we -- the court is in recess.  It would then be late

 9     August or early September for further re-examination.  Of course, we are

10     trying to avoid that but that's how the situation is at this moment.

11             However, before we finally determine that matter, Judge Fluegge

12     has one or more questions for you which you're invited to listen to now.

13                           Questioned by the Court:

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Kecmanovic, I have to take you back to your

15     testimony yesterday.  On page 23862, you talked about detention

16     facilities for Serbs in Sarajevo in two hotels, Hotel Zagreb and

17     Hotel Europa.  How often did you visit this detention facility in

18     Hotel Zagreb?

19        A.   Twice.  I went twice to Hotel Zagreb.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can you describe the detention facility you saw

21     there?

22        A.   I did not enter the Zagreb hotel.  I went there asking that the

23     people who were being held there be released.  That was all.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That means you didn't visit the centre itself?

25        A.   I actually entered the hotel itself but not their cells.


Page 23964

 1     I didn't go to the rooms where they were held.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Did you talk -- did you see the people who

 3     guarded the detainees?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Were they in uniforms?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Which kind of uniform?

 8        A.   Some had military police uniforms, others civilian police

 9     uniforms.  Then there were uniforms from the reserve force of both the

10     military and police.  And some had some kind of passes, referred to in

11     some of the documents we saw yesterday.  At one Presidency session, there

12     is some discussion about those passes.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I'm not interested in any Assembly session.

14     I want to know what you saw.  To which army belonged the military police

15     people?

16        A.   It is very difficult to say.  There were people without any

17     uniform there as well.  With these passes --

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I'm talking about the military police you

19     mentioned first.

20        A.   Yes.  They were supposed to belong to the military hierarchy.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  To which army did they belong?

22        A.   The army of BH.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Did you see any insignia on them?

24        A.   Yes.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  How many of those have you seen?


Page 23965

 1        A.   In the detention facility itself or you mean in general?

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Of course I'm only talking about the detention

 3     facility.

 4        A.   Yes.  Two or three.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Where was this detention facility in the hotel

 6     located?

 7        A.   In the hotel basement.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Were you allowed to go to the basement?

 9        A.   No.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Where was the detention facility in Hotel Europa

11     located.

12        A.   I'm not sure whether it was only in the basement or in some other

13     premises as well.  I went up to the reception desk of the hotel asking

14     that they be released.  I was looking for specific detainees.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Did you enter the detention facilities itself?

16        A.   No.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I can now give the final report, Mr. Lukic, and

19     please listen very carefully.  It will be possible to have one session

20     this afternoon, which could be a 75-minute session, after a break.  You

21     would have ten minutes until now.  If you think you can manage, then we

22     would do that.  If you think that it would be irresponsible for you, as

23     Defence counsel, to proceed in this way, just tell us and we'll cancel

24     any session this afternoon.

25             MR. LUKIC:  First, I would like to ask Professor what would be


Page 23966

 1     the good time for him to come back, if necessary.  And if we cannot

 2     finish today, I don't see any point to torture everybody to continue

 3     longer.  I still could have him back.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  If you think you can't finish, we shouldn't do it.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  I think I cannot finish.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  There is more to be said about all that but we will

 7     not do that at this very moment.

 8             Then the one and final thing we would have to ask the witness

 9     is -- well, first of all, it's -- Monday, you say, it's -- you have to be

10     in Belgrade.  Now, we were all willing to accommodate you, to change our

11     schedules, to do whatever we could, and it turns out to be impossible.

12     My question to you is:  How urgent, how important, is the matter for you

13     to be in Belgrade on Monday so that you could not, as we all tried to do,

14     consider to change your plans?  And to be here on Monday morning?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is of exceptional importance.

16     I really cannot do it but I would be willing to stay today for as long as

17     needed.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but that doesn't help us out.  Could you shed

19     any light on exceptional importance?  I'm not asking for details, or if

20     you would like to deal with it in private session?  If you say in the

21     family there is something very important, that would -- or is it

22     political or is it -- I'm just asking you whether you could give us a bit

23     of an idea of what and how the importance is to be understood.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These are private reasons and I'm

25     not at liberty to discuss.


Page 23967

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I fully accept that.  Then when would you be

 2     available in the times to come?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I mentioned late July as a possible

 4     solution.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Not any earlier?  I mean, if we are talking about

 6     late July, when does late July start for you?  Does that start -- it's my

 7     recollection that the 24th is a Friday which means 27th is a Monday

 8     again.  Would you still be available in the week ending the 24th?  We are

 9     not sitting on the 25th but the 24th then is a Thursday.  That week, is

10     that -- falls that within the end of July or?  That's the week of the

11     21st of July.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I actually meant the very few last

13     days of July, the very last week.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  The court is not sitting then, so therefore then it

15     would be at its earliest late August, early September.  Are there any

16     dates you would not be available late August, early September?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Late August is an option.  But I

18     can only confirm precisely from Belgrade.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Could I invite you that you communicate with

20     the Victims and Witnesses Section if there are any dates on from, well,

21     let's say, approximately the 25th of August when you would not be

22     available, and -- because you have to communicate now through the

23     Victims and Witnesses Section.  You could not communicate with the

24     calling party or -- and we'll try to arrange a new date for further

25     re-examination, late August or in September.


Page 23968

 1             Before you leave, I would like to instruct you that you should

 2     not speak or communicate in whatever way, not in writing, not --

 3     whatever, about your testimony, whether that is testimony you've given

 4     today and yesterday or whether that's testimony still to be given upon

 5     your return.  If I said today, yesterday, testimony given until now.

 6             Therefore, any communication with this Tribunal should be

 7     channelled through the Victims and Witnesses Section.  Is that clear to

 8     you?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I wish you, although only temporarily, a safe

11     return home again, but we also hope to see you back in late August or in

12     September.  You may follow the usher.

13                           [The witness stands down]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, before we adjourn, could you ask

15     the Victims and Witnesses Section to take care of a constant channel of

16     communication with the witness, in case they would want to contact him or

17     if he wants to contact the Victims and Witnesses Section?

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we will -- one second.

20                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  There is one item we could deal with at this moment,

22     but we have -- we need to go into private session for that.

23                           [Private session]

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 23969

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20                           [Open session]

21             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I take it that on Monday you have a

23     witness ready to appear as the next witness?

24             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour, we do have a witness.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, you were on your feet but you're now


Page 23970

 1     down again so you were just waiting for the adjournment.

 2             We adjourn for the day and we will resume Monday, the

 3     14th of July, at 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, I.

 4                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.16 p.m.,

 5                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 14th day of July,

 6                           2014, at 9.30 a.m.

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