1 Monday, 1 September 2014
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is the case
9 number IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 The Chamber was informed that the Defence wanted to raise a
13 MR. LUKIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Only a short thing. I
14 just spoke with the Prosecution. We would just ask for an additional
15 20 minutes for direct with this witness, so it would be 50 minutes in
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That is on the record.
18 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Is the Defence ready to call its next witness?
20 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour, we are. Mr. Milorad Bukva.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bukva.
22 Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
23 Meanwhile I use the time to deal with one matter, and it has got
24 to do with Witness Keserovic. From the 17th to the 19th of June of last
25 year, Witness Keserovic testified before this Chamber as a Prosecution
1 fact witness.
2 On the 19th of May of this year, the Defence filed its
3 Rule 65 ter witness list which included Witness Keserovic. On the
4 23rd of May, following inquiries made by the Chamber as to why
5 Prosecution witnesses were included on a Defence witness list, the
6 Defence made submissions that it intended to call Witness Keserovic to
7 provide further testimony. You can find this at transcript pages 21427
8 to 21429, and 21586 to 21587.
9 The Chamber interpreted the Defence's submissions in its witness
10 list and in court as a request to recall the witness for further
12 On the 3rd of June, 2014, the Prosecution responded to the
13 Defence's request not opposing the proposed recall. However, on the
14 27th of August, the Defence informed the Chamber that it is unlikely that
15 it will want to recall Witness Keserovic and that the Defence is looking
16 for a replacement witness.
17 [The witness entered court]
18 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber therefore, without prejudice, hereby
19 dismisses the Defence request to recall Witness Keserovic as moot and
20 strikes him from the Defence witness list.
21 Good morning, Mr. Bukva.
22 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
23 JUDGE ORIE: It was not very polite to continue with other things
24 when you entered the courtroom. Apologies for that.
25 Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you make a
1 solemn declaration. The text is now handed out to you. May I invite you
2 to make that solemn declaration.
3 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. We didn't hear any interpretation. Now
5 I can imagine, more or less, what the interpretation would have been.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Wrong channel. We apologise.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could we then hear the interpretation
8 although ...
9 THE INTERPRETER: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth,
10 the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
11 WITNESS: MILORAD BUKVA
12 [Witness answered through interpretation]
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated, Mr. Bukva. We had a little
14 problem with the translation. If you would have any problem in hearing
15 in your own language what is said, please draw my attention to that.
16 Mr. Bukva, you'll first be examined by Mr. Lukic. You find
17 Mr. Lukic to your left. Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.
18 Mr. Lukic, please proceed.
19 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
20 Examination by Mr. Lukic:
21 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Bukva.
22 A. Good morning.
23 Q. For the record, will you please tell us your full name.
24 A. My name is Milorad Bukva.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now pull up in e-court 1D1724.
1 This is Mr. Bukva's statement. I also submitted a hard copy of this
2 statement. And if the usher would be so kind to hand one to the
3 Prosecution first for them to ascertain that it's a clean copy.
4 [In English] I left it with the -- already with them. So just be shown
5 to the Prosecution, please.
6 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Bukva, you have it both on the screen and on
7 paper, the first page of this document. Do you recognise your signature?
8 A. Yes, it is my signature.
9 Q. Do you recognise the statement before you?
10 A. Yes, I do. It is my statement.
11 Q. Did you provide that statement to the Defence team of Mr. Mladic?
12 A. Yes.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we see the last page, now.
14 [In English] We should have -- okay.
15 Q. We see it also on the screen. Do you recognise the signature on
16 the last page?
17 A. Yes. It's mine.
18 Q. If I were to put to you the same questions today, would you
19 answer the same as in the statement?
20 A. Certainly.
21 Q. To the best of your knowledge, is this statement accurate and
23 A. Yes. It is accurate and everything in it is correct.
24 MR. LUKIC: Your Honours, I would tender at this moment the
25 statement of Mr. Bukva.
1 JUDGE ORIE: In the absence of any objections, Madam Registrar,
2 the number would be?
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 1D1724 will be Exhibit D608.
4 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
5 MR. LUKIC: I would -- I would just read now a summary statement,
6 with your leave. Thank you.
7 As a professional soldier, Milorad Bukva will speak about his
8 education and military duties he performed.
9 He will present his observations regarding the inter-ethnic
10 situation in Sarajevo before and after the multiparty elections, about
11 the Muslims organising into paramilitary groups, about the organised
12 criminal attacks on the JNA facilities, personnel and their families, and
13 about the pullout of the JNA units from Sarajevo.
14 Milorad Bukva will testify about the establishing of the
15 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps and its composition. He will present information
16 about the 1st Corps of the Muslim army of B and H and about the forces of
17 that corps in Sarajevo.
18 Milorad Bukva will speak about the constant fire by Muslim forces
19 from all neighbourhoods of Sarajevo, about the sniper fire and sniper
20 nests. He will also testify about continuous abuse of the Red Cross
21 emblem by the members of the 1st Corps of the ABiH and about the
22 1st Corps opening artillery fire from the hospital perimeter, the health
23 centre, schools, and kindergartens.
24 He will also present information about the camps for Serbs, about
25 the killings and constant abuse of the Serbs, the sexual abuse of Serb
1 women, their being prevented to leave the city, et cetera.
2 I don't know if something is wrong, but I'm not receiving English
3 translation at this spot. I don't know if everybody else is okay.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's because you are talking in English.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 MR. LUKIC: I am, that's right.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 MR. LUKIC: Maybe that's why.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Lukic.
10 MR. LUKIC: Thank you. Good morning, everybody.
11 JUDGE ORIE: It's Monday.
12 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're welcome.
14 MR. LUKIC: Milorad Bukva will also testify as to what the
15 UNPROFOR personnel stated regarding Markale 1 and Markale 2 at the
16 meetings he attended himself.
17 Further, he will testify about General Mladic's comportment
18 towards war prisoners and civilian population and his attitude towards
19 the Serb paramilitaries. He will speak about General Mladic as a person
20 and a leader. Mr. Bukva will also present information about the number
21 of family members murdered during World War II and about the Serb mass
22 graves in Dubica and its surroundings, where he comes from.
23 That was the short summary and I will, with your leave,
24 Your Honours, have some questions for Mr. Bukva.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed as you suggested.
1 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 For that purpose, at the beginning we'll need 1D3629. It's a map
3 Mr. Bukva marked in Galic case. We'll -- we uploaded different map since
4 this one is not the right one. So I'll probably have to come back. I'll
5 continue and try to solve the problem.
6 MS. MacGREGOR: Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 MS. MacGREGOR: Good morning. I believe that the correct map has
9 a different 65 ter number, if I -- I think that it's at 1D3093. That
10 should be the correct map.
11 MR. LUKIC: Can we have then -- yes, that's the map we are
12 looking for. Then we will have to correct Mr. Bukva's statement in
13 paragraph 20.
14 Now in -- just for the record, since Mr. Bukva does not know the
15 numbers, he just knows the map shown to him, then in paragraph 20 instead
16 of "65 ter 1D3629," it should be put "1D3093." And I want to thank to my
17 learned friend for her help.
18 JUDGE ORIE: But then the witness has a hard copy of his
19 statement with him.
20 Could you look at paragraph 20 of the hard copy and could you
21 look at the map which is on your screen. And could you tell us whether
22 what you referred to in paragraph 20 is what is marked on this map.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is this map. But what we
24 see on the screen is only one half of the map. There is another half.
25 MR. LUKIC: That's the next page of the same document,
1 Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. What we have on our screen now is the
3 first -- no, what we have on our screen now is the second page which is
4 the city centre of Sarajevo rather than what we saw on page 1 of this
5 document; page 1 mainly dealing with the western part, including
6 Dobrinja, of Sarajevo.
7 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
8 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. You are right.
9 So this document has to be understood that the second page is
10 actually the right part of the first page. They should be connected in
11 that way. That's the right part then --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Unfortunately we have now twice the --
13 MR. LUKIC: That's the --
14 JUDGE ORIE: There are we are.
15 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
16 Q. [Interpretation] Just for the record and to understand this map
17 that you marked, Mr. Bukva, in the Galic case, would you just tell us
18 what these abbreviations or acronyms mean? We see KM, for instance.
19 A. It's the usual sign for the command post of a certain unit.
20 Q. What is Lpbr?
21 A. That's the acronym for light infantry brigade.
22 Q. What is R?
23 A. R is how I marked locations where weapons and ammunition were
25 Q. What about N?
1 A. N is a designation for weapons and ammunitions depots.
2 Q. TN?
3 A. TN means locations where heavy weaponry was deployed and
5 Q. Whose units did you mark on this map?
6 A. Enemy units.
7 Q. So that we don't go through them one by one, because one whole
8 day in the Galic case was spent marking this map, only tell us what the
9 numbers on this map mean; for instance, 142nd Lpbr?
10 A. That's the establishment name of the unit. In this case
11 142nd Light Infantry Brigade. Or this flag in the shape of a square,
12 inside it's written "1.K," it means the 1st Corps. I should just like to
13 emphasize that these were the chief targets we identified in the area of
14 responsibility of the 1st Corps of the BH Army. There were many more, of
15 course. But these were the main ones and the most interesting to our
17 Q. On this map -- for instance, you mentioned 1K, the 1st Corps. Is
18 that the command or the units of the 1st Corps?
19 A. That was the command post of the 1st Corps, and in this specific
20 case it is located at the address Danijel Ozma Street number 2, and that
21 was across the street from the building of the Presidency. The place
22 where the command of the 1st Corps was was a residential building, and
23 its basement was used for the requirements of the command of the
24 1st Corps while the rest of the building was still occupied by local
25 residents, the same people who lived there before the war, civilians.
1 Q. Was it normal for the commands of the units of the BH Army to be
2 placed in civilian facilities?
3 A. That was practically a rule. I would just like to say that two
4 or three units were located in the prewar barracks of the former JNA.
5 All the other Muslim units used buildings of a similar type like the one
6 that was used for the 1st Corps command. This was something that the
7 Muslims resorted to often and, like I said, it could be considered a
9 Q. And what were your duties? Could you please tell us briefly.
10 A. When the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps was formed after a decision of
11 the Assembly of Republika Srpska of Bosnia and Herzegovina, as it was
12 called before, on the 12th of May, 1992, I was appointed chief of
13 intelligence and security corps part -- as part of the intelligence and
14 security department of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps. And that was my post
15 throughout the entire period, with the formation of the Army of
16 Republika Srpska and the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps until the signing of the
17 Dayton Agreement.
18 Q. And could you please tell us, what were your duties? What was
19 your organ doing?
20 A. My department that I led was assigned with gathering information
21 of all kinds, but the focus was information about the armed forces of
22 Bosnia and Herzegovina. So my department mostly dealt with gathering
23 information about the enemy, about the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina,
24 the so-called armija. Of course, we gathered different kinds of
25 information, too, about the general situation in the field, about the
1 relations within the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the morale, the
2 weapons that the army had, their plans, their objectives, movements,
3 regrouping of the forces, and all the things that are important from the
4 security aspect, a high level of security as far as our units were
6 Q. And this gathering of intelligence, did that also include the
7 positions of the enemy forces?
8 A. Yes, absolutely. The most complete answer to your question would
9 precisely be the last thing that I said. Everything that was important
10 regarding the enemy, everything that was important and that could affect
11 the security of our armed forces and our civilian population that was in
12 the combat zone.
13 Q. Thank you. And can you please tell us what the sources of your
14 information were?
15 A. We used various sources for information. Most frequently,
16 reconnaissance of enemy communications, then conversations or interviews
17 of people who switched to the other side or who escaped from territories
18 under Muslim control, by monitoring the media, enemy media, by direct
19 reconnaissance on lines of contact, by sending our reconnaissance units
20 into the depth of enemy territory, information coming from settlements.
21 That would be more or less it.
22 Q. And when you listen to enemy communications, were you able to
23 anticipate enemy actions? Do you have any examples for that?
24 A. There are many, many examples of that. At the
25 Slobodan Princip Seljo barracks, which was a former JNA barracks, we
1 formed a listening centre by apparatus that we had at hand with just some
2 professional devices, and we were able to successfully monitor enemy
3 communications traffic, particularly at the beginning of the war.
4 And so I can immediately give you an example from the beginning
5 of the war. War had not officially broken out yet, but this was an
6 attack on a JNA column in Dobrovoljacka Street. I just happened to be
7 there when Izetbegovic, from Lukavica, where he was brought from the
8 airport, informed Ganic in a telephone conversation about the plan of the
9 withdrawal of the command from Bistrik. And then after that telephone
10 conversation when Ganic --
11 Q. I'm sorry. Could you tell us who was supposed to pull out?
12 A. The command from Bistrik under the command of General Kukanjac.
13 So after that conversation, Izetbegovic and Ganic continued the
14 conversation and chaos broke out in the enemy communications. We could
15 clearly hear different armed groups calling to each other and openly
16 calling for Osa and Zolja weapons to be brought, everything that they had
17 that was available to them of weaponry. On the basis of that
18 communication, it was quite clear that the column in Dobrovoljacka Street
19 would be attacked, and this is what did happen.
20 For some eight to ten minutes of that conversation on enemy
21 communications lines, I actually told General Djurdevic [as interpreted]
22 about those eight to ten minutes of communication, and General Gagovic
23 also, who at that time was in Lukavica. I was disappointed when
24 General Djurdjevac just commented on that by saying, "Bukva, we have
25 guarantees from Mr. Doyle and the UNPROFOR commander that the process of
1 the pullout of the command from Bistrik would proceed without any
2 incidents." Unfortunately, my assumptions turned out to be correct and
3 there was a massacre that took place in Dobrovoljacka Street.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bukva, could I ask you a question. The Chamber
5 has heard some evidence about the events in the Dobrovoljacka Street but
6 not, as far as I remember, from the preceding communications within the
7 federation circles.
8 Now when you listened into this communication, was it -- first,
9 was it recorded; second, was it transcribed in one way or another?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The audio that I talked about was
11 recorded and it's somewhere in the archives. I don't know exactly what
12 happened to the recording.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask the parties whether any effort was made
14 to trace such recordings?
15 Because, Mr. Lukic, often when the Prosecution relies on
16 intercepted communications, they often come with audio and
17 transcriptions. Is there any underlying audio or are there any
18 underlying transcripts or have you searched for them or have you sought
19 the co-operation of the Prosecution to find it?
20 MR. LUKIC: We did talk with Mr. Bukva about that, and we
21 couldn't locate those intercepts. But I think that maybe the next
22 question can put a bit more light on this, if --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then I'll wait for that. But you did not speak
24 with the Prosecution about it?
25 MR. LUKIC: No, we did not.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
2 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
3 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Bukva, you said that this should be
4 somewhere in the archives. Did this archive remain in Republika Srpska
5 or did the JNA take it with you when it withdrew to Serbia?
6 A. No, the archive is in Republika Srpska. The last place where I
7 know it was located was the Vrbas barracks in Banja Luka.
8 Q. Thank you. And this communication took place on the same day
9 that the attack happened; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now I would like to ask you something else. We will try to get
12 to --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, could I nevertheless ask one or two
14 follow-up questions.
15 You said the last place where you know it was located was the
16 Vrbas barracks in Banja Luka. When was it that you know that it was
17 located there?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was on the 8th of March, 2007,
19 when I was demobilised from the Army of Republika Srpska. That was the
20 last day of my active military service and the last day that I know that
21 the archive was at the Vrbas barracks in Banja Luka.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And do I then understand that, if I could say
23 so, that control over these archives has always been in Republika Srpska
24 hands and not in federation hands?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, that is correct. It was
1 always in our possession.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 Could I ask the Prosecution to try to find out whether any such a
4 collection of audio is known to it, either in audio or in transcription.
5 Please proceed.
6 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Bukva, one follow-up question about this.
8 Today do you have to ask permission from the Defence Ministry of Bosnia
9 Herzegovina in order to have access to anything that is located at the
10 Kozara barracks?
11 A. Yes, that was a rule already when I was still in active military
12 service. Right after the Ministry of Defence of Bosnia Herzegovina was
13 formed, as well as all the other joint defence organs, everything that
14 had to do with the archives and other military issues was directly in the
15 jurisdiction of the Ministry of Bosnia and Herzegovina, including the
16 archive in this case. That was also treated in the same way. As far as
17 I know, these rules are still in force today.
18 Q. Thank you. I would briefly like to put some questions to you
19 about the departure of the JNA and the forming of the
20 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps. When the JNA left the territory of Bosnia and
21 Herzegovina, what did that lead to, their departure from the territory?
22 A. The departure of the JNA from the territory of Bosnia and
23 Herzegovina was a political decision reached or respected fully by the
24 military leadership of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia in an attempt
25 to contribute to a peaceful resolution of the conflict in
1 Bosnia-Herzegovina. I have to say that the Yugoslav People's Army in the
2 period before the interethnic conflicts broke out was a significant
3 factor of stability in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and I have proof of that.
4 At least on two occasions, and perhaps even three, the civilian
5 population asked to be allowed to go into the barracks where I served,
6 Slobodan Princip Seljo, in Lukavica, and when they came I spoke to those
7 people, among whom were Serbs, Muslims, Croats, about their fears which
8 grew from day-to-day for the simple reason that armed groups of Muslims
9 began to appear in the Dobrinja settlement. These groups were headed by
10 well-known Sarajevo criminals, such as Juka Prazina, Musan Topalovic,
11 Caco, Ismet Bajramovic, Celo, and so on and so forth. And this caused
12 fear among the civilian population, and they sought safety in the
13 compound of the barracks where I was serving. I repeat: This happened
14 twice, perhaps even three times. I don't remember exactly. This in
15 itself indicates that the people trusted the JNA.
16 The political decision that I referred to led to a situation, a
17 political situation, of complete differentiation along ethnic lines
18 because with the departure of the JNA, the people understood that
19 something that they had faith in until the day before had disappeared,
20 and it was clear that hard times were coming. So everybody followed the
21 principle: I'm going to where my people are a majority. This led to
22 demographic shifts among ethnic lines, and already at that time it was
23 known, this truth was becoming evident among the people, that war in
24 Bosnia-Herzegovina was inevitable.
25 I have to emphasize that the greatest disappointment with the
1 departure of the JNA was felt among the Serbian people, because the Serb
2 people were traditionally committed to the JNA and they always supported
3 the army. The fact that the JNA left the territory created the need to
4 respond in an adequate manner to Muslim and Croat preparations for what
5 was about to happen, and the Serb people self-organised, created armed
6 groups, and then later they formed the Army of Republika Srpska.
7 Q. I'm sorry, we have little time left and a lot to cover. Could
8 you just, please, give me briefer answers. Tell us, briefly, what was
9 the first time when you met General Ratko Mladic?
10 A. I don't remember the exact date when I first met
11 General Ratko Mladic, and that's understandable, but I know it was after
12 the decision of Republika Srpska to establish its army and after the
13 departure of the JNA from Bosnia-Herzegovina. I know that for a fact
14 because I clearly remember the situation when I met General Ratko Mladic.
15 It was in the building of the command of the unit I served in, the
16 351st Communications Regiment, Signals Regiment. And since I was the
17 only one from that unit left in Lukavica, I met the general in the
18 hallway of that building and suggested to him to occupy the office of my
19 former commander.
20 Q. Why were you left there alone? Where were the others from your
22 A. With the withdrawal of the JNA, my unit, the 351st Signals
23 Regiment of the Federal Secretariat for National Defence, left with all
24 the other troops to the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. I, as a native
25 of Bosnia-Herzegovina, had expressed my desire to stay there and my
1 commander did not have a problem with it.
2 I also have to stress that the Muslims left the Yugoslav People's
3 Army, I mean officers and non-commissioned officers who are Muslim, took
4 place after the JNA decided to leave Bosnia-Herzegovina. Muslim officers
5 and non-commissioned officers were until that moment part of the JNA and
6 after that they left the JNA. Out of an approximate number of
7 120 officers and NCOs in my unit, approximately two or three of us
8 remained. And another noteworthy thing to say in view of certain
9 misinterpretations concerns the assets that were left behind: One rifle
10 with one combat set, that's 150 rounds; one pistol; two hand-grenades,
11 and that was it. All the rest was taken by the unit to the Federal
12 Republic of Yugoslavia --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And one helmet.
15 JUDGE ORIE: If you ask the witness to give short answers
16 focussed on your question, then you should stop him at the point where he
17 moves away from your question rather than to -- it's you who --
18 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour, although --
19 JUDGE ORIE: -- is in control of the --
20 MR. LUKIC: Mr. Bukva covered several next questions. I wanted
21 to ask about the assets left behind after the withdrawal of JNA. But
22 thank you. And --
23 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Bukva, we really have to stream-line this
24 from now on. So from which units was the Army of Republika Srpska
25 established? Especially the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.
1 A. After the departure of the JNA, the VRS was formed of the units
2 that remained on the ground along territorial lines, and we used them to
3 form as much as possible the VRS and the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps. Those
4 were these troops.
5 Q. In your view, when did the Army Republika Srpska become
7 A. It went very slowly because the decision was taken on the
8 12th of May, 1992. It took a long time to do that job because it's a
9 process, a time-consuming one. But at any rate, at the end of 1992 you
10 could call it an army, an organised army.
11 Q. Thank you. I should like to ask you something about the Muslim
12 side now. Who were the leaders of the Patriotic League? To whom did the
13 Patriotic League belong? What kind of information did your service
15 A. The Patriotic League was the militant wing of the SDA. It was
16 the prime mover of the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Hardened criminals in
17 Sarajevo were used for that purpose. It was enough to give them weapons
18 to know that an armed conflict would ensue. The political leadership of
19 the SDA was fully aware, and it was done with complete awareness.
20 Q. Did your service gain any information about the existence of
21 prisons in Sarajevo for Serbs?
22 A. Within the general range of issues that we collected information
23 on, we also had information about these prison locations, but our
24 information was incomplete and many of them remained undetected until the
25 end of the war because some of them were private prisons.
1 Q. Since you observed the enemy, tell us if the enemy attacked Serb
2 positions and how often?
3 A. That happened very often. The Sarajevo theatre of war was known
4 as one with daily activity, and in these offensive operations it was the
5 Muslim forces that were active, even during cease-fires. The intensity
6 of combat operations did not change even during cease-fires. Cease-fires
7 were observed only briefly by the Muslim side and very rarely.
8 Q. Did Serbs have an interest in maintaining cease-fires?
9 A. Absolutely. I must stress that the Serbs had never even thought
10 about war before. Serb people had a very strong desire for a peaceful
11 solution to the Bosnia-Herzegovina issue, and their hope that the war
12 would stop never died because the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, by the end of
13 1943 [as interpreted], was exhausted by combat. We observed strictly
14 every cease-fire agreement and we had strict orders from the Main Staff
15 of the Army of Republika Srpska to that effect.
16 MR. LUKIC: I think it's a break time.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Well, Mr. Lukic, I specifically did not call a break
18 because you are three minutes off from your 50 minutes, so therefore I
19 thought you would finish and then we take a break.
20 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
21 We'll then have shortly to go to private session.
22 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
23 [Private session]
25 [Open session]
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Mr. Bukva, did your service obtain any information as to whether
5 Muslim forces used hospitals, schools, et cetera, from which to open
7 A. Yes, we can see it on the map. There are several locations that
8 confirm this. For instance, primary school -- I don't see very well the
9 name of the school, but one battalion of the 102nd Brigade was in the
10 Pavle Goranin primary school. We have already discussed the command post
11 of the 1st Corps. For instance, also at Hrid, there was a battalion of
12 the 115th Infantry Brigade. Then the weapons workshop at Marin Dvor was
13 located in a machine engineering school. Or the detachment Djerzelez was
14 located at Dobrinja in a kindergarten.
15 Q. Thank you, Mr. Bukva. We have no further questions at this
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
18 Mr. Bukva, we'll take a break. After the break, you'll be
19 cross-examined by Ms. MacGregor. We'd like to see you back in
20 20 minutes.
21 [The witness stands down]
22 JUDGE ORIE: We'll resume at 11.00.
23 --- Recess taken at 10.36 a.m.
24 --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.
25 JUDGE ORIE: While we're waiting for the witness to be escorted
1 into the courtroom, I would briefly deal with a videolink matter.
2 On the 27th of August, the Defence has filed a motion to hear the
3 testimony of a witness via videolink but erroneously gave two dates of
4 testimony: First week of September, and the week of the
5 22nd of September. The Chamber understands the reference to the first
6 week of September to be a mistake and considers the request to relate to
7 the week of the 22nd of September. And that's the reason why we would
8 like to confirm with the Defence that this interpretation is correct, and
9 I saw that you were nodding yes, Mr. Lukic.
10 MR. LUKIC: Yeah, I'm not the most reliable source on this issue.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Well --
12 MR. LUKIC: And if you allow me to check with my case manager,
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.
15 [The witness takes the stand]
16 JUDGE ORIE: And if our reading is correct in considering the
17 time needed to facilitate such a request, the Chamber would like to ask
18 the Prosecution if it could already indicate when a response can be
19 expected. We'll hear from you later, Ms. Bibles.
20 Ms. MacGregor, if you're ready to start your cross-examination.
21 Mr. Bukva, you'll be cross-examined by Ms. MacGregor.
22 Ms. MacGregor is counsel for the Prosecution.
23 But before we start, Mr. Lukic had something to tell us.
24 MR. LUKIC: I forgot, Your Honours, to offer associated exhibits
25 into evidence.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --
2 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] --
3 JUDGE ORIE: First in general terms, any objections against
4 associated exhibits announced?
5 MS. MacGREGOR: No, Mr. President.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll deal with that in a minute, Mr. Lukic.
7 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: But let's not make the witness further wait for us
9 to deal with administrative matters. We'll, at the end of this session,
10 deal with the associated exhibits.
11 Please proceed.
12 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you, Mr. President.
13 Cross-examination by Ms. MacGregor:
14 Q. Good morning, Colonel Bukva. A few preliminaries. You were --
15 A. Good morning.
16 Q. You were a witness for the defence in General Galic's trial at
17 this Tribunal in 2003; is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. During that trial you testified for three days; is that correct?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. Now, on your visit to The Hague this time, can you tell us when
22 you arrived in The Hague?
23 A. This time I arrived on Tuesday. I was here at 8.00 in the
24 evening. Yes.
25 Q. So today being Monday, you've been here almost a week.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And did you follow the testimony of the Defence witness who
3 preceded you, Velimir Dunjic?
4 A. Partially, yes. Partially. On the internet.
5 Q. Did you speak with Mr. Dunjic after his testimony finished?
6 A. No, I didn't see him afterwards. He left. I don't know when.
7 Q. I'm going to move on now to some general questions about the
8 structure of the SRK intelligence section that you were posted to.
9 Starting in May 1992, is it correct that you worked in the SRK section
10 for intelligence and security affairs?
11 A. Yes, it's correct, but it's correct that it wasn't sector,
12 section, but department. It had two departments: The security
13 department and the intelligence department, and the chief of the
14 department was one person. The chief of the security department was at
15 the same time the chief of the security intelligence affairs of the
16 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.
17 Q. Who is the chief that you're now referring to?
18 A. The chief of the department for security and intelligence affairs
19 of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps was at that time
20 Lieutenant-Colonel Lugonja, and he was the head of that department during
21 the whole war. So I -- I was the chief of the -- both intelligence and
22 security departments of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, and he was my
23 superior along that line of reporting.
24 Q. I want to make sure that the record doesn't become confused with
25 the word "section," "department," et cetera, especially because it's
1 possible some of it is lost in translation. So to be clear,
2 Colonel Marko Lugonja was the chief of the SRK section for intelligence
3 and security affairs; is that correct?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. And you worked directly under him as the chief of the
6 intelligence department at the corps level?
7 A. That is correct. Yes.
8 Q. Now, I think you also just said that you were also the chief of
9 the security department underneath Colonel Lugonja; is that correct?
10 A. No, no. I'm going to be completely precise. The department for
11 security and intelligence affairs of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps
12 comprised two entities, two departments: One for intelligence - and I
13 was the chief of that department; the other one was for security affairs,
14 and the chief of that department was Lieutenant-Colonel Lugonja at the
15 time. But the chief of the security intelligence affairs was the chief
16 of the department of security, Lieutenant-Colonel Lugonja. So do you
17 understand that? Those -- the chief was Lugonja of those both
18 departments and he was my superior.
19 Q. Thank you for your clarification. It may help to explain, if you
20 can answer, as you were the chief of the intelligence affairs, who was
21 the chief of the security affairs also underneath Colonel Lugonja?
22 A. Lieutenant-Colonel Lugonja was performing two functions. He was
23 the chief of the intelligence security department and at the same time
24 the chief of the security department. I was the chief of the
25 intelligence department, and let me just add that I was also his deputy.
1 In his absence I stood in for him.
2 Q. Thank you for the clarification. Did you also have colleagues
3 Marinko Milidrag and Brane Lubura?
4 A. Yes, they were in the department. I have to say that we lacked
5 manpower as far as cadre was concerned because we focused on
6 lower-ranking organisational units to bring them up to full complement.
7 So besides Marinko and Lubura, we also had Zoran Kos who was in charge of
8 some administrative affairs. As for professional duties, we had Lugonja,
9 he was the chief, there was me, Milidrag, and Lubura.
10 Q. As a member of the SRK intelligence staff, is it correct that
11 Colonel Lugonja had two chains of command that he was required to report
13 A. No, you couldn't put it that way. There are no two chains of
14 command. The department for security and intelligence was an
15 organisational unit of the command of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, but it
16 was an element by establishment of that command. And so in the command
17 it was subordinated to the corps command, in the command and disciplinary
18 aspect. But in the professional aspect, our department was subordinated
19 to the administration -- to the security administration of the Main Staff
20 of Republika Srpska Army. So the chief of the department was not - let
21 me put it that way - subordinated to the corps commander in the
22 professional sense, I repeat.
23 Q. I may have confused the question by talking about two chains of
24 command. To simplify it, on some matters Colonel Lugonja was required to
25 report directly to the SRK corps command, and on other matters he was
1 required to report directly to the VRS Main Staff intelligence structure;
2 is that correct?
3 A. No. In the professional sense, Colonel Lugonja reported
4 exclusively to his superior command along the professional line; i.e.,
5 the security administration. But as an organ of command, he could inform
6 the commander about some things but not to report to him or to submit
7 reports to him about his work. He didn't have to do that.
8 Q. We'll come back to his reports to the corps commander in a few
9 minutes. I want to go to what you've just said about the professional
10 reporting line. The top of that for Colonel Lugonja, or the next step
11 up, so to speak, would be General Tolimir at the VRS Main Staff; is that
13 A. No. His superior was Beara because Beara was the chief of the
14 security administration. His immediate superior was Beara, but the next
15 superior up the chain was Tolimir, yes, that is correct.
16 Q. Thank you. You referred to reporting that Colonel Lugonja may
17 have done to the corps commander. Now, the corps commander during the
18 time you were in the SRK was either General Milosevic or General Galic
19 depending on the date; is that correct?
20 A. Correct, yes.
21 Q. And the corps commander held daily morning meetings with his
22 command staff at which different units reported on the activities over
23 the course of the past 12 hours; is that correct?
24 A. No, I have to correct you in one part. The morning briefings at
25 the corps commander were attended by the command organs of the corps;
1 chiefs of the departments, the administrations, and so on. They were not
2 attended by commanders of the units, operational units. Only the organs
3 of command of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.
4 Q. Otherwise my description is accurate?
5 A. Could you please repeat your question?
6 Q. Sure. The corps commander held daily morning meetings, the staff
7 that was present was as you just described, and that staff would report
8 on the activities that had occurred during the past 12 hours; is that
10 A. Yes. One correction regarding that as well. At that meeting,
11 the organs of command would first of all be informed about the events
12 over the previous 12 or 24 hours, but these meetings were held in the
13 operations centre and that was an office, a room where all the data from
14 the field would come in over the previous 24 hours. So at that morning
15 meeting, all the organs of command had the opportunity to receive
16 information about the current situation at the front, and in -- depending
17 on the events or on the overall situation, they could plan their
18 activities and possibly make proposals for some activities of our forces.
19 Q. Are you saying, at the morning meetings, that the organs of
20 command would both receive the information from their subordinates and
21 report that information to the corps commander?
22 A. Not submit reports. They would mostly receive assignments. I
23 said depending on the situation and reports from the field that all came
24 into the operations centre, the organs of the command, after certain
25 analysis, would receive assignments in terms of planning possible
1 activities on our part.
2 Q. We've spent a lot of time on what is a very simple question and,
3 in fact, I'll just read to you some of your testimony from Galic so you
4 can understand the basis of my question. This is at transcript
5 page 18366 of your Galic testimony.
6 "The way that the corps command worked, the commander made it an
7 obligation to have a morning meeting, and this was an extensive meeting.
8 Its objective was that the organs of the command learn about the
9 situation on the front in the previous 12 hours of the previous night."
10 Do you agree with your testimony? Can you please answer verbally
11 for the record?
12 A. Yes, that is what I said.
13 Q. And you often --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. MacGregor, I'm a bit puzzled by page 29,
15 line 14, where you talk about receive the information from their
16 subordinates. It's not entirely clear to me how in that meeting those
17 present would receive any information from their --
18 MS. MacGREGOR: I was --
19 JUDGE ORIE: -- subordinates.
20 MS. MacGREGOR: I was -- sorry, Mr. President. I was also
21 unclear in my understanding of the --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if you clarify it with the witness --
23 MS. MacGREGOR: Yeah --
24 JUDGE ORIE: -- that would be most appropriate way of proceeding.
25 MS. MacGREGOR: If you can give me one moment to look back at the
1 source of the question.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
3 MS. MacGREGOR:
4 Q. Colonel Bukva, you answered one of my questions, and this is at
5 page 29 of the temporary transcript, starting around line 4, you answered
7 "These meetings were held in the operations centre, and that was
8 an office, a room where all the data from the field would come in over
9 the previous 24 hours. So at that morning meeting, all the organs of
10 command had the opportunity to receive information about the current
11 situation at the front."
12 So my question to you is: From whom were they receiving the
13 information about the current situation at the front?
14 A. The information, in the form of regular combat reports, was
15 received from regular units, from the brigades, and these regular daily
16 combat reports would report on the situation at 1700 hours and the
17 situation in the morning. So the brigade commands, yes, were obliged to
18 submit regular combat reports which were all sent to the operations
19 centre where the duty operations officer of the corps was. And he, in
20 turn, would report to all the organs of the command about the situation
21 on the basis of reports that he received from the units, from the
22 brigades. He would compile one report and then would report or inform
23 the organs of the command about the situation in the field.
24 So I hope that I was clear. This would be done on the basis of
25 reports that were coming in from the brigades, and these -- this
1 information would be submitted at these morning briefings which were
2 organised by the commander.
3 JUDGE ORIE: This clarifies the matter.
4 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. President.
5 Q. In the absence of Colonel Lugonja, as his deputy you would
6 sometimes attend these meetings; is that right?
7 A. That is correct. As his deputy, yes.
8 Q. In the Galic trial you attended -- you testified that you
9 attended 20 to 30 per cent of such meetings. Do you stand by that
11 A. Yes, yes. I do. That is a percentage that I am sure of, 20 to
12 30 per cent at the most.
13 Q. I'm going to talk now -- ask a few questions about reports that
14 were drafted by you or also by your colleagues in the intelligence
15 unit -- intelligence department. Now, these written reports were
16 required to follow a certain form; is that right?
17 A. Which reports are you thinking of? Could you please say that
18 again for me?
19 Q. Intelligence reports.
20 A. No, they didn't have to be drafted in any specific format. No.
21 Q. For example, what would the first item of the report be about
23 A. I cannot answer that question. I don't understand. I said that
24 the reports that we were submitting to the superior in the professional
25 sense didn't have any specific kind of form. I assume that you're
1 thinking of combat reports that were being sent from the
2 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps to the Main Staff. If that is your question,
3 then, yes, I can answer that question.
4 Q. No, but I do want to ask you about combat reports. Am I correct
5 that you did not create combat reports?
6 A. No, you are incorrect.
7 Q. One of your duties was to draft combat reports as opposed to
8 intelligence reports?
9 A. No. Combat reports were drafted by the command and they were
10 signed by the commander. That's a combat report. And that report has
11 certain elements. The first item would be information about the enemy;
12 the second item would be one's own forces and so on and so forth.
13 Q. I asked if you drafted combat reports. Based on the answer that
14 you just gave, I understand that you did not.
15 A. No, no.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 A. No.
18 Q. Now you've had an opportunity to review this statement in front
19 of you. You've talked about several documents in that statement. All of
20 them are combat reports; is that right?
21 A. Right.
22 Q. None of them are intelligence reports; is that correct?
23 A. No, it's not.
24 Q. Which document in your statement do you discuss that is an
25 intelligence report?
1 A. I don't think there are any. I believe there is only an order to
2 subordinate units or, rather, subordinate organs. I'm not sure.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. MacGregor, twice now where the question of the
4 same structure, that is, a negative, and then to ask confirmation, it
5 creates a confusion, apparently. Could you please keep this in mind when
6 phrasing your next questions.
7 MS. MacGREGOR: Yes, thank you, Mr. President.
8 Q. Moving back to the topic of intelligence reports. As an
9 intelligence officer, you were tasked with providing high-quality
10 information about anything that would impact the risk to the corps; is
11 that correct?
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. And earlier today when Mr. Lukic asked you about sources, you
14 talked about a number of sources that you consulted, including listening
15 to communications. Would you also speak to people that had come through
16 from the Muslim-controlled parts of Sarajevo?
17 A. I did so myself in a number of cases when such talks were of
18 special interest or, rather, when the sources, the people who had crossed
19 over to our territory from the Muslim side, had extremely interesting
20 information that was useful to us. In such cases when we had an
21 especially interesting source, I would talk to these people and my
22 associates, such as Milidrag Lubura. But most of such cases were handled
23 by our organs in brigades in the location where the person crossed over
24 to our territory. For instance, if the person crossed over into the
25 territory covered by the Ilidza Brigade, the case would be handled by our
1 organ within the Ilidza Brigade.
2 Q. This would include Serb civilians or Serb members of the armed
3 forces who had come over from the Muslim-controlled sides; is that
5 A. Any person who would come over from the Muslim-controlled
6 territory, including civilians and Serbs who had been mobilised by force
7 and managed to escape at some point to territory under our control. But
8 it was not only Serbs. Any person who had managed to leave Sarajevo or,
9 rather, the part of the Sarajevo that was under Muslim control. There
10 were convoys that exited Sarajevo legally, such as one that I remember,
11 the convoy of Jews, of the Roma, et cetera. Only the Serbs did not have
12 the right to leave Sarajevo, so there was no Serb convoy, and it was for
13 understandable reasons because they were used as live -- human shields.
14 And I remember another convoy, a convoy of Macedonians. Those were the
15 three organised convoys that left Sarajevo.
16 Q. Earlier today at transcript page 11, this was in your testimony
17 about using various sources for information, you included:
18 "... conversations or interviews of people who switched to the other
19 side." Can you just clarify -- sorry, it's not in your statement. It
20 was from your testimony this morning. Do you need me to repeat the
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. So I'm not referring to your statement. I'm referring to an
24 answer that you gave this morning. You were talking about the sources of
25 information and you referred to: "... conversations or interviews of
1 people who switched to the other side." And my question is just what you
2 are referring to with that phrase, "people that switched to the other
4 A. Maybe that's a little inconsistency, but it's implied that these
5 people had crossed over to our side. We're talking about the same thing.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 A. I could not be possibly interviewing people who had left our side
8 to the other one. I could only talk to people who had come over to our
10 Q. Thank you for the clarification. That does explain it.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask for one clarification as well.
12 You said only the Serbs did not have the right to leave Sarajevo.
13 Were the Muslims free to leave Sarajevo as they wished?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was no organised departure of
15 Muslims from Sarajevo that I know. I mean, in convoys. I don't know why
16 they would leave Sarajevo, but I know that they did leave based on the
17 intelligence we had. And I have to say that, in doing so, they abused
18 the Sarajevo airport which our forces had turned over to the UN force
19 exclusively for humanitarian needs. Still, we had information that
20 certain structures in Sarajevo - that is to say, the Muslims - were
21 leaving for third countries using that airport.
22 And another thing --
23 JUDGE ORIE: No, I stop you.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Muslims --
25 JUDGE ORIE: I stop you there at this moment. You apparently
1 make a distinction between organised departure and non-organised
2 departure. When you talk about Muslims abusing the airport, was that
3 because they had a right to leave or was this unauthorised departure?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's precisely what I wanted to
5 clarify. The airport was abused insofar as, at the beginning, the
6 Muslims were leaving across the runway illegally, and for the most part
7 these were armed troops, armed Muslim troops. And again, later, at a
8 certain point they built the tunnel under the runway with the entrance at
9 Dobrinja and one exit at Donji Kotorac, and that's the way in which they
10 abused the airport.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Now I go back to my initial question. You said
12 Serbs were the only ones who were not allowed to leave. I take it that
13 you were referring to Serb civilians?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Now in general terms, were Muslim civilians free to
16 leave as they wished, apart from at night crossing a runway or in very
17 small numbers, perhaps, using a tunnel, but in general terms were Muslim
18 civilians free to leave?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know the answer to that
20 question. But it is a fact that there was not a single Muslim convoy
21 that left Sarajevo.
22 JUDGE ORIE: So when you said only the Serbs are not allowed to
23 leave, that's not accurate in the sense that you do not know, as you told
24 us now, whether Muslims were free to leave?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My personal opinion is that --
1 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not --
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- these two issues have nothing in
4 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not asking you about your opinions. I'm asking
5 you about facts.
6 Please proceed, Ms. MacGregor.
7 MS. MacGREGOR:
8 Q. Returning to the issues of sources of intelligence. You had
9 personnel along the front line who would monitor the activities of the
10 enemy and report to you; is that correct?
11 A. Yes, my subordinates did that.
12 Q. And you would monitor the media?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now, you talked about how it wasn't just Serbs who you would
15 interview for intelligence information. Did you also speak to non-Serbs
16 that were captured by the VRS?
17 A. No. For the most part, if you mean prisoners of war, these talks
18 were conducted by our lower-level organs - that means organs in
19 brigades - because the information in the possession of these persons was
20 of most interest to brigades.
21 Q. You said before that if a brigade unit subordinate to you came
22 across information that was important, that then you would speak to that
23 person. So surely it's possible that a captured ABiH soldier would have
24 information that was important from an intelligence perspective; is that
25 not correct?
1 A. Maybe I wasn't quite clear. My section did that work but not me
2 personally. I remember one case in particular. It was -- I can't
3 remember the name of the person or the brigade. He was the intelligence
4 organ in his brigade, and in a state of inebriation he crossed over into
5 our territory and I interviewed him personally. That's the only case I
6 can remember. I can't remember the name.
7 Q. I'll refer you to your testimony --
8 A. Later on that man --
9 Q. Excuse me. I'll refer you to your testimony from temporary
10 page 34. I asked you if you would speak to people that had come through
11 from the Muslim-controlled parts of Sarajevo. Your answer, at line 34,
12 line 8:
13 "I did so on a number of cases when such talks were of special
14 interest or, rather, when the sources, the people who had crossed over to
15 our territory from the Muslim side, had extremely interesting information
16 that was useful to us. In such cases when we had an especially
17 interesting source, I would talk to these people and my associates," and
18 then it continues to say most of the cases were handled by organs
19 underneath -- in the brigades where they came in.
20 So I understand you are saying mostly it was handled by the
21 brigades, but you said yourself in a number of cases of special interest
22 you would perform the interviews. So is that correct? If you can answer
23 verbally for the record.
24 A. Yes, that's correct. But that did not concern only prisoners of
25 war. I said persons who had come in from the other side. It could be
1 civilians, it could be prisoners of war.
2 Q. So if at some point --
3 A. But I clarified --
4 Q. At some point a prisoner of war would have information that would
5 be of special interest to an intelligence section, is that not true?
6 Actually, let me rephrase that. Is it true that a captured POW would
7 have helpful intelligence information?
8 A. Well, that goes without saying. That's why I said that the
9 brigades dealt with the bulk of that work. Why? Because the POW would
10 be somebody from the vicinity of that brigade and he would have
11 information about the forces facing that brigade, and it's logical that
12 our brigade intelligence officer would conduct the interview, but
13 sometimes somebody in the section would handle the interview. I just
14 remembered this intelligence officer who wandered off into Grbavica and I
15 talked to him for about ten minutes, seeking information that I was
16 interested in at the time in a room designated for the purpose, not in
17 the -- on the premises of the brigade.
18 Q. When I ask you a question, if you can try to answer it accurately
19 the first time, because this takes a lot of time. So, for example --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. MacGregor, you introduced the most recent part
21 of your questioning by referring to prisoners of war. That caused most
22 of the confusion. We clearly see that we have information dealt with on
23 the brigade level and by the level on which the witness functioned, and
24 we have prisoners of war and those who crossed over. This is constantly
25 going through another -- and in your questions, especially the last
1 series of questions, you started by reference to the prisoners of war.
2 That creates confusion. Not to say that the witness was in every respect
3 always accurate, but apparently he's thinking in two different groups and
4 two different levels, and an accurate phrasing of the question would have
5 certainly avoided most of the confusion.
6 Please proceed.
7 MS. MacGREGOR: Yes, Your Honour. The term "prisoner of war"
8 actually came first from the witness.
9 Q. Mr. Witness, if I can just try to clarify what your evidence is.
10 I asked you if you spoke to non-Serbs that were captured by the VRS, and
11 your answer was:
12 "No. For the most part, if you mean prisoners of war, these
13 talks were conducted by our lower-level organs."
14 So you can clarify for me if we're talking about -- let's talk
15 first about prisoners of war. Did you sometimes conduct interviews of
16 prisoners of war? If you can answer verbally for the record, please.
17 A. I've already explained. Only in one case did I feel the need to
18 interview such a prisoner myself, otherwise no.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. The bulk of that work was done by our brigade organs.
21 Q. So is there a second category of persons, which I would describe
22 as non-Serbs captured by the VRS, would you consider that to be a
23 separate group from prisoners of war? For example, civilians.
24 A. Yes, yes. Civilians, Serbs and Croats alike.
25 Q. And Muslims.
1 A. No. Muslim civilians did not cross over to our side.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Here again there is a possible source of confusion.
3 When you are talking about these civilians - as you said, Serbs
4 and Croats alike - did you capture them when they crossed over?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You can't say that we detained
6 them, but when they crossed over it would be noticed and logically, since
7 they were coming from enemy territory, they would be interviewed.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. That's -- that's a clear answer.
9 Ms. MacGregor, I indeed misspoke. You started your line of
10 questioning with persons captured --
11 MS. MacGREGOR: Yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: -- and then the witness apparently, immediately in
13 his answer, understood people being captured as prisoners of war. And
14 apparently here now there is a category, again, of people who were
15 interviewed, crossed over, but were not captured and in that sense were
16 no prisoners of war. And there is another, if I may give you some
17 guidance on another matter as well, it may also be important to make a
18 distinction between those dealt with at the brigade level and those dealt
19 with at the witness's formation level but not necessarily be interviewed
20 by him personally. That is still a distinction that may create some
22 Please proceed.
23 MS. MacGREGOR: I think I will probably return to this topic when
24 I have a chance to look over the past few pages of testimony. I'm going
25 to continue with a new topic before we take the break, if that's okay,
1 Mr. President.
2 JUDGE ORIE: That's okay. We have another seven minutes to break
4 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you.
5 Q. For the time being we're going to set aside the topic of what
6 sources you consulted. I want to refer now to the topics that you were
7 required to report about. So is it correct that you would collect
8 intelligence on, for example, the number of personnel under the ABiH?
9 A. Yes, yes. I said any information that was of interest to our
10 units. Anything that could pose a threat to our troops and civilians was
11 interesting to us, including the strength of the enemy, the weaponry they
12 had, their plans, deployment, movements, regrouping, all these things
13 were directly linked to our interests.
14 Q. Did this include information about the morale of enemy forces?
15 A. Combat morale. We were interested in the combat morale of the
16 enemy army, their willingness to fight. Because, you see, there were a
17 lot of incidents in their ranks, mutual clashes, internal clashes, and
18 this information was of great importance to us.
19 Q. You referred to the number of personnel as an example of
20 information that you would collect. So, for example, if a VRS combat
21 operation resulted in a loss of a significant number of personnel, would
22 that be helpful intelligence to gather?
23 A. By all means that information would be relevant to our estimates.
24 It would be useful, but it was not of particular interest. We always
25 received that information as part of our quest for other intelligence.
1 Q. Why is it that a loss of a significant number of personnel would
2 not be particularly interesting from an intelligence perspective?
3 A. I didn't say that we were not interested. I said that
4 information would be obtained in pursuit of other interests. It was not
5 a priority. It was useful but it was not our primary interest. Because
6 there were far more important issues in which we were more interested.
7 We were, for instance, more interested in how many troops were alive than
8 dead, for instance, in a brigade that was facing us. It's much more
9 important how much personnel, how much able-bodied fighting men they had.
10 It was far more important than finding out their losses.
11 Q. Surely the amount of personnel alive is directly related to the
12 amount that are killed in action for determining that intelligence.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Could I try to cut this short. Apparently the issue
14 you want to raise and the issue you are questioned about, Mr. Bukva, is
15 that you are interested in the strength, personnel strength of the
16 troops. And, of course, if a significant number of the troops would die,
17 then a smaller number would remain but could be completed with others, I
18 take it. And therefore you're emphasizing that you'd like to know how
19 many troops remained at the end after losses, after completion,
20 et cetera, rather than the exact number of people who had died in an
21 operation. Is that well understood?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, roughly. That's a good
23 understanding. For our purposes, far more important is the information
24 of combat-ready personnel. The information about losses could be
25 interesting but not necessarily.
1 JUDGE ORIE: There are a lot of -- Ms. MacGregor, there are a lot
2 of implied assumptions in there. That is that if troops -- if a
3 significant number dies, that you would know in advance how many there
4 are, so therefore how many remain, and that they would not be completed,
5 et cetera. There is a lot of implied assumptions which, I think, the
6 witness constantly has on its mind and which you have not made explicit
7 by yourself and that creates perhaps here and there the -- the talk on
8 not fully understanding each other.
9 Please proceed.
10 But when I say "please proceed," it is time for a break.
11 Mr. Bukva, if you would follow the usher. We would like to see
12 you back in 20 minutes.
13 [The witness stands down]
14 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at 20 minutes past 12.00.
15 --- Recess taken at 12.01 p.m.
16 --- On resuming at 12.23 p.m.
17 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like to start with the associated exhibits which
18 I'd forgotten before the break, or at least there was no time left.
19 Mr. Lukic, could you briefly mention the numbers.
20 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. It's 1D319.
21 JUDGE ORIE: 1D00319 receives, Madam Registrar, number?
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 1D00319 receives D609.
23 JUDGE ORIE: D609 is admitted.
24 Next one, Mr. Lukic.
25 MR. LUKIC: 1D02969.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 1D2969 receives D610.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I noticed that I think our staff -- it was not
4 easy to get access to the translation. Is there no translation? No
5 translation issue if I understand well.
6 Next one -- let me see. D610 is admitted.
7 Next one, Mr. Lukic.
8 MR. LUKIC: Next one is 1D02970.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 1D02970 receives D611.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
12 Next one.
13 MR. LUKIC: Next one is 1D02971.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
15 THE REGISTRAR: 1D02971 receives D612.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
17 And then, I think, the map marked by the witness is the
19 MR. LUKIC: Yes. And it's a corrected number. It's 1D3093.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And that receives number?
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 1D03093 receives D613.
22 JUDGE ORIE: D613 is admitted into evidence.
23 As far as the map is concerned, I noticed that in e-court there
24 is no translation, even not for the small portions of text which appear
25 on the map. Most of it has been properly explained, perhaps not every
1 single word. It seems that there is some reference to mortars, for
2 example, 120-millimetre mortars, which I do not understand because it's
3 written on a place, could be mobile mortars, could be anything.
4 But could you please check, Mr. Lukic, together with the
5 Prosecution, whether you are satisfied with the -- whether both parties
6 are satisfied with the text and the accessibility of that text to the
7 parties and therefore to the Bench as well.
8 Then meanwhile the witness can be escorted into the courtroom.
9 Two observations.
10 Mr. Lukic, perhaps it's -- there is no need to draw your
11 attention to the fact that the Chamber is always best assisted, if it
12 comes to protective measures, and I have specifically in mind at this
13 moment the request for protective measures of -- oh, I'm sorry. I -- I
14 would have to move in private session. I'll do that later today. I've
15 said nothing, I think, which could -- needs any redaction.
16 Then, Ms. MacGregor, we heard a lot of questions and are all
17 rather general and vague. If you could come to your point so that we
18 know exactly what the relevance of all of it is, apart from knowing the
19 structure. Of course, knowing the structure is not unimportant but
20 it's -- we would like to see you to come to your point as soon as
22 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you, Mr. President.
23 If, while we're waiting for the witness, we could have
24 Exhibit P4900 come up, that may save some time, and we'll be looking
25 first at the fist pages in both versions.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bibles.
2 MS. BIBLES: Your Honour, you previously asked when we would have
3 a response to the videolink. We'll have that filed no later than
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's appreciated.
6 The same, by the way, Mr. Lukic, is true for the
7 examination-in-chief. Vague and general statements, answers such as:
8 The Serbs never thought about the war. I mean, that's -- that's not easy
9 to test that or perhaps very easy to test that, I do not know, but it's
10 not of great assistance to the Chamber to have these general
11 statements --
12 MR. LUKIC: Yeah.
13 JUDGE ORIE: -- rather than concrete matters which, of course,
14 the Chamber is primarily interested in.
15 MR. LUKIC: I -- as I remember, I just asked about cease-fires
16 and the witness added this. So it was not part of my question.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But statements like: Most of the cease-fires
18 were violated by, then I think the Chamber would very much appreciate to
19 have one cease-fire violated so that it can be tested by the other party
20 as well, whether it really -- whether the perception of the witness of
21 such a violation is accurate and -- rather than general sweeping
22 statements about violation of cease-fires.
23 [The witness takes the stand]
24 MR. LUKIC: I think that in these documents we can find --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
1 MR. LUKIC: -- cease-fires that are not followed.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 MR. LUKIC: And according to the statements, it's the other side
4 to be blamed for.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yeah. Okay. Then we reached, then, a more concrete
7 Ms. MacGregor, please proceed.
8 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you, Mr. President.
9 Q. Colonel Bukva, if you see on the screen in front of you, on the
10 left side of the screen in the B/C/S language, do you see the rules of
11 service for military security organs. And do you recognise this
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Does this document outline the rules for the work of your unit?
15 A. Yes.
16 MS. MacGREGOR: If we can please turn to page, in the English,
17 13, in the B/C/S, 11.
18 Q. We're going to look now at chapter 3, paragraph 29. In this
19 paragraph there is a reference to security organs conducting
20 counter-intelligence evaluation. Can you please tell the Chamber what is
21 meant by "counter-intelligence evaluation"?
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't see "counter-intelligence" in
23 paragraph 29, unless there is a part of it I don't see.
24 MS. MacGREGOR: Sorry. You're right. It's paragraph 27, a
25 little bit further up on the English and hopefully on the same -- it may
1 need to go -- yeah. Thank you.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You should repeat your question.
3 MS. MacGREGOR:
4 Q. Colonel Bukva, do you see the reference to "counter-intelligence
5 evaluation" that we're discussing? I see that you're nodding. Can you
6 just explain what your understanding of --
7 A. Yes, yes.
8 Q. What's your understanding of that term?
9 A. Counter-intelligence evaluation is a thought process in the work
10 of the intelligence and security organs. It's one of the tasks of the
11 security organs. It's done on the basis of gathered intelligence data,
12 and its objective is, on the basis of the evaluation of the intelligence,
13 to propose measures that lead to the prevention of intelligence threats
14 to one's own forces. So a counter-intelligence evaluation could be in
15 the form of a document, but actually it's a continuing, ongoing thought
16 process of intelligence organs that alters depending on the situation in
17 the field. If I have been clear.
18 The security organ at any point in time must have a proposal for
19 solutions for a specific situation in keeping with the intelligence that
20 is available to it on the basis of its intelligence work.
21 Q. Is counter-intelligence evaluation a thought process that you
22 applied in your intelligence gathering -- one of the thought processes
23 that you applied?
24 A. No, no. It states here clearly that security organs --
25 intelligence organs, that's a different category. These are two separate
1 organs that in principle function for the same objectives. Security
2 organs, on the basis of intelligence data that we prepare for them and
3 other information available to us, conduct this process of
4 counter-intelligence evaluation and propose to the command organs
5 prevention measures.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MS. MacGREGOR: We can take this document from the screen.
8 Q. Colonel Bukva, I'm now going to turn to your evidence about the
9 locations of ABiH and VRS forces in Sarajevo during the war. In
10 paragraph 18 of your statement, you discuss specifics about the personnel
11 strength of the ABiH, and you state that the ABiH had 38.000 armed
12 soldiers in Sarajevo.
13 Now, you testified in the Galic trial that the ABiH had 35.000 to
14 38.000 armed men. Is your Galic testimony accurate?
15 A. Yes, correct, on the basis of information that was available to
16 us at the time. This figure corresponded to the actual figures, the
17 number of men under -- carrying weapons in Sarajevo.
18 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to repeat the
20 MS. MacGREGOR:
21 Q. Can you repeat the number -- can you please repeat the number you
22 just provided in your last answer?
23 A. I said based on information that we had at the time, the number
24 over the four-year period varied, but it ranged from 35.000 to 38.000
25 armed soldiers in Sarajevo.
1 Q. You testified in the Galic trial, and this is at transcript
2 18364, lines 4 through 11, I'm going to read an excerpt from that
4 "I said at the beginning that in the city itself there were about
5 38.000 armed troops. Out of that there were 30.300 or, let's say, 31.000
6 were in the BH Army units -- were part of the BH Army units. And several
7 special units, special MUP units also existed in Sarajevo, in the part of
8 the Sarajevo under Muslim control. We assessed that these troops
9 amounted to the strength of one brigade."
10 Is it correct that approximately of the 35- to 38.000 that you've
11 referred to, is it correct that 31.000 were in fact in the ABiH?
12 A. Again, I say that the number varied. In any event, according to
13 our estimate, it -- our estimate was what I just referred to, and we
14 operated on the basis of the assumption that these figures were accurate
16 Q. Were between 4- and 7.000 of those personnel in fact members of
17 special MUP units?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. If you could please take a look at paragraph 23 of your
20 statement. Now, the second sentence of this statement -- excuse me, this
21 paragraph, you talk about the location of the command post of the
22 105th Light Infantry Brigade at Bistrik.
23 A. Yes. Yes.
24 Q. Now, if you look at paragraph 24 you -- in the third sentence of
25 that paragraph, you talk about the position of the 115th Brigade
1 positioned at Bistrik. So I just wanted to clarify with you: Are both
2 of these references correct or should they both be referring to the
3 115th Light Brigade?
4 A. Right. Actually, the command posts of both of these brigades
5 were at Bistrik, the 105th and the 115th Brigade. At Bistrik, that was
6 the higher command of the 4th Corps -- actually, that was the location of
7 the former 4th JNA Corps command.
8 Q. In a moment we'll have an opportunity to look at the map that you
9 marked in the Galic trial and then we'll return to this topic. Now, in
10 paragraph 21 of your statement you state that the ABiH had heavy weaponry
11 positioned at Zlatiste. Now, Zlatiste was actually held by the VRS,
12 wasn't it?
13 A. No, no.
14 Q. When you refer to Zlatiste, can you just describe where that is
15 in Sarajevo?
16 A. That is - how can I explain it to you? - it's at Mount Trebevic
17 below -- in any event, it's a location at Trebevic, let's say, roughly
18 above -- above Skenderija. Perhaps a better orientation point would be
19 the Olympic venue. I think that the Olympic venue for the bob-trail was
20 below it. So Zlatiste is there --
21 Q. Let's look at --
22 A. -- near that Olympic bob-trail.
23 MS. MacGREGOR: If we could look at D613, page 2 of that exhibit.
24 Q. This is the map that you marked in the Galic case. We're going
25 to look at the east side of Sarajevo on this map. And if you like, we
1 can just have one page up on the screen so that it's bigger, the east
2 side of the map. Page 2. Okay.
3 So, sir, if I can direct your attention slightly to the right
4 middle are the words in red "Stari Grad." Now, I see the word "Zlatiste"
5 to the south-west of Stari Grad. Do you see where I'm referring to?
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could we enlarge it a bit further for the
8 JUDGE ORIE: But then including the word "Zlatiste," I would
9 suggest. That is further down. Could we zoom out again. Could we move
10 to the lower part of the map.
11 MS. MacGREGOR: Your Honours, I also have a hard copy that I
12 could provide to the witness if that would --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I think at this moment we can clearly see it
14 on the screen.
15 Witness, do you see the words "Zlatiste" which seems to be below
16 the yellow road lowest on the map, which may well be the Pale-Lukavica
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I do see it. Yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Please -- please proceed.
20 MS. MacGREGOR:
21 Q. And is the location on this map consistent with your
23 A. Could you please reformulate the question? What do you mean,
24 "according to your recollection"?
25 Q. Does this map seem accurate to you?
1 A. Yes, this is a map of the Sarajevo city.
2 MS. MacGREGOR: If we can zoom out again and, in fact, show both
3 sides of the map, east and west. I'm also going to ask if the court
4 usher can provide this hard copy of the map to the witness. It may
5 assist when we're looking at multiple places at the same time.
6 I do have one hard, colour copy as well extra if it would assist
7 the Bench.
8 Q. Sir, if you look at Zlatiste on the map that you marked in the
9 Galic case, you see that you have not marked at Zlatiste the
10 112th Vitez Motorised Brigade. In fact, you've marked the 112th Vitez
11 Motorised Brigade on page 1 of the map.
12 A. Yes, that is the Boljakov Potok sector. Boljakov Potok. There
13 is one thing that is creating confusion here. According to what I know,
14 one area in this section has a similar name, Zlatiste or something like
15 that. In any event, what is being discussed here is this area here, not
16 Zlatiste in any case because at that point Zlatiste was on our side. We
17 were controlling the area that was on this side of the road. So this is
18 an inconsistency here, because the location that I am speaking of is the
19 one that is marked. So in terms of the name, geographically,
20 Boljakov Potok is where I indicated the heavy weaponry of the
21 112th Vitez Brigade is there. There is a location that has a similar
22 name, so it's possible that there is some confusion here because of that.
23 So it is not in the area that we're looking at here on this side, the
24 area with the name of Zlatiste.
25 Q. I think now that the matter has been clarified on the record,
1 that there are two places that have the name Zlatiste.
2 MS. MacGREGOR: If we can please look --
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Same or similar. Or similar. And
4 that's how it's been recorded in the transcript, as Zlatiste. It could
5 be that but it could be similar. I mean, it's been a long time since
6 then, so I cannot remember the precise name.
7 MS. MacGREGOR:
8 Q. On the eastern side of the map --
9 MS. MacGREGOR: And for e-court, we can just look at the eastern
10 side for this question so it will be bigger.
11 Q. If you focus on approximately the centre of the map to the right,
12 you'll see where you've marked the 115th Brigade. There is what looks to
13 me two places where you marked the number 115. Do you see those
14 locations? It's blown up as well on this --
15 A. Yes, yes.
16 Q. Do you see that --
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. -- between those numbers, 115 and 115, on the map the area of
19 Bistrik is marked? Do you see that?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Now looking over to your left and up a bit, we see a flag with
22 the number 105 in it. Now, I return again to my question about the
23 location of the 105th versus the 115th. From this map they do not appear
24 to both be in Bistrik, but what is your testimony about their location?
25 A. The point is the command of this brigade was in Bistrik, but the
1 whole unit was based in this installation marked by a flag inside which
2 "105 Pbr" is written. That's where the whole unit -- the actual unit
3 was. But the command post was in Bistrik.
4 Q. The command post of which brigade was in Bistrik?
5 A. The 105th Brigade. Its command post was in Bistrik. But this is
6 an inconsistency. The place marked by the flag marks the location of the
7 unit, the whole unit.
8 Q. So you have not marked the location of the 105th Brigade command
9 post on this map; is that correct?
10 A. You noticed that well. It's an inconsistency, indeed. But the
11 information is correct. The flag should have been in Bistrik. Instead,
12 I marked the actual place of deployment of the unit. I made a mistake.
13 This is not the command post but the unit, whereas the command post was
14 in Bistrik together with the 115th Brigade.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask the witness one clarification.
17 We see these little flags in the map. Sometimes at the bottom of
18 the flag there is a small triangle, sometimes there is a small circle.
19 Could you tell us first what a flag with a small triangle stands for?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I almost have forgotten these
21 topographic designations and how units should be marked. The triangle
22 with a flag that is rhomboid is a designation for a brigade. A circle
23 with a triangular flag marks a battalion, I believe. The command post of
24 a battalion. For instance, the triangular flag in a circle is a
25 battalion command.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Could you then explain to us. You see the
2 lowest marking in the map with a text attached to it, which seems to
3 refer to a school, see you -- do see that? It's just above the word
4 "Stari Grad" at this moment at the very lower part of the map.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stari Grad, yes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's at Hrid.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Just above that. Do you see handwritten text? Two
9 words, the second apparently being "skola"?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Stop.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. This is a primary school.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Now, there is a line between that text to a
14 flag which is just above it with a circle at the bottom and then a
15 triangular flag above it. Could you tell us exactly what that indicates?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Inside the flag we see "1/115."
17 That's the 1st Battalion of the 115th Brigade. It was deployed in a
18 primary school in a part of town called Hrid. 1 means the 1st Battalion,
19 slash 115, meaning from the 115th Brigade.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that explanation. May I seek one more
21 clarification to better understand how certain items are referred to. Do
22 you see -- in the centre of this map, do you see "GS KM" in a square box?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I see it. It says "GS" --
24 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] Is that -- what does GS stand
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a rectangular flag with a
2 line -- two lines inside. GS means Main Staff of the Army of
3 Bosnia-Herzegovina. And below that, we see KM and that was the command
4 post of the Main Staff of the BH Army, and it was inside the building of
5 the Presidency of the BH.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now I -- it seems that there is a line between
7 the bottom of this rectangular flag to a triangle which is a little bit
8 further to the left, just left below where it reads "100-112," do you see
9 that little triangle?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: What does that triangle stand for? Is that the --
12 how is that linked to any of the text in flags?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They are linked by this line. This
14 triangle is part of the flag. But to make the picture more
15 understandable, that's how we draw the sign. Whereas the triangle --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand that the triangle indicates
17 the location where the Main Staff was situated and that is depicted by a
18 line with a -- linking this square flag to that little triangle.
19 My last question is: The 100-112 reference stands for what?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You see a triangular flag here and
21 inside it -- and in its base is a circle. Next to it we read "KM." This
22 is not "100," it's "IDO," that means reconnaissance sabotage detachment,
23 slash 112, that's the number of the brigade from which this detachment
24 came. So this is a command post and the unit was deployed in the same
25 place. Daniel Ozma Street number 7, I believe. That's where this
1 reconnaissance sabotage detachment of the 112th Brigade was deployed.
2 JUDGE ORIE: You've answered my questions.
3 Mr. Lukic, this is exactly the type of information which one
4 would expect in a legend, or perhaps you could agree on the basis of the
5 evidence of the witness what the legend would be for this map and the
6 translation for it.
7 Please proceed.
8 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you, Mr. President.
9 If we can please have in e-court 08282B, as in boy. Also, if I
10 could ask the court usher to bring the hard copy of the map and place it
11 on the easel.
12 Your Honours, this map is very difficult to see in e-court. I've
13 made colour copies for each of you and also for the Defence.
14 Unfortunately, the very best copy is the copy that the witness will be
15 looking at.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, for the record the document is
17 Exhibit P2952.
18 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you.
19 Q. Colonel Bukva, the map that's being placed next to you is a map
20 of the ABiH. It's dated 15 March 1995. I'm going to be asking you to
21 look at that map and to compare something with the map that you marked in
22 the Galic trial. So in a moment I'll ask you to get up and have a look
23 at the map. I'll remind you that while you're pointing at the map and
24 far away from the microphone, it will be hard to record your answers so
25 if you can wait a moment before you head over there so I can explain to
1 you what we'll be looking at.
2 Okay. Do you see on the right-hand side of the map that there
3 are numbers marking the grids? At this point you can just nod if you
4 want to let me know that you understand. On the very right-hand side of
5 the map there is handwritten numbers.
6 A. You mean these numbers?
7 Q. Correct. And there are similar numbers along the bottom of the
8 grid -- excuse me, along the bottom of the map. Do you see those
9 numbers? I see that you're pointing to them?
10 JUDGE ORIE: The witness was first pointing to the numbers 52 to
11 62 at the right-hand side of the map, and then later to the numbers at
12 the bottom ranging from 23 to 40.
13 Please proceed.
14 MS. MacGREGOR:
15 Q. I'm going to ask you to look on that map where the 102nd Brigade
16 is marked, and I'll give you some guidance. If you look at the grid
17 between -- I'll start on the right-hand side, it's between 56 and 55, at
18 that particular row. And then if you go over to the left, looking along
19 the bottom, between numbers 26 and 27.
20 MS. MacGREGOR: Your Honours, I have circled in red on the hard
21 copies that you have the flag that I'm going to be asking the witness
22 about, and also for the Defence.
23 Q. Colonel Bukva, do you see there in that square a flag with the
24 marking -- excuse me, with the number 102?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Okay. Now keeping your eye on that to orient us, two grid
2 squares to the right are four oval shapes that mark the neighbourhood of
3 Alipasino Polje. Are you able to locate that neighbourhood? It's in the
4 same row between bottom map grid numbers 28 and 29.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I can confirm that the witness was pointing with
6 his pointer directly to these four ovals.
7 MS. MacGREGOR: And I see that the witness is also nodding.
8 Q. If you -- you can have a seat again so that you can look at your
9 own map.
10 Now, I'm going to ask you on your own map, on page 1 of that map,
11 to look at where you've marked the 102nd Brigade.
12 MS. MacGREGOR: In e-court if we can please have D613, page 1.
13 It's approximately in the middle of that page. Okay. That perspective
14 is good.
15 Q. Witness, do you see, either on the screen or in the hard copy in
16 front of you, where you've marked the 102nd?
17 A. Yes, I see that.
18 Q. Now, if you again look for the neighbourhood of Alipasino Polje,
19 you'll see that you've marked the 102nd Brigade almost directly above
20 that neighbourhood. Do you agree with that description?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. So you've marked it much further west -- excuse me, much further
23 east on your map than the marking on the ABiH map of this same brigade;
24 is that correct?
25 A. The command post of the 102nd Infantry Brigade, according to our
1 information, was in the wire factory at Alipasin Bridge. You can see
2 here Alipasin Most, bridge. This is -- could I look again at your map?
3 The command of the BH Army. There is a difference but I still maintain
4 that this information -- this data is from 1995; right?
5 Q. According on the date on the map, yes.
6 A. This is certainly the data that we had. At that moment it was
7 correct. Especially because right next to the command post of the
8 102nd Brigade was an ammunition plant. It's possible it moved for
9 security reasons. It happened during the war, command posts were
10 relocated because there was always a danger they would be detected and
11 exposed to artillery and other fire.
12 Q. Could I --
13 A. According to this, according to their map, their MAD, mixed
14 artillery battalion, was in this location, if you look at the map that I
15 drew. So it's possible that this command post moved to what was earlier
16 the command post of their mixed artillery battalion.
17 Q. I believe you're referring to the MAD that you marked on your map
18 on the -- is that correct? The one that is slightly to the left and
19 above the 102 --
20 A. Yes. Yes.
21 Q. But even that flag where it says "MAD" is still significantly
22 further east than the location marked 102 on the ABiH map; correct?
23 A. I repeat: For the reasons I described, it's possible they
24 changed the location of their command post. It wouldn't be unusual. But
25 for us, the location of the wire factory at Alipasin Bridge was the
1 identified command post of the 102nd Brigade at that time.
2 Q. Okay. You've referenced just now that at times command posts
3 would relocate or reorganise because of strategic advantages or other
4 reasons. Is it correct that intelligence on where enemy forces were
5 located is specifically relevant only when you know the certain date of
6 that intelligence? And I'm not sure if I've asked that in a confusing
8 Let me ask it this way: If I asked you where something was
9 located, is it correct that your answer might change depending on what
10 date I was asking about?
11 A. You're right. It's a variable, and movements on the front line
12 are a regular occurrence. For instance, if we had some artillery in one
13 firing positions and the situation requires that they be moved, our prior
14 information would no longer be correct. Units move and positions move.
15 All elements of a combat disposition are in a certain juxtaposition at
16 one moment and in a different juxtaposition at a different moment. The
17 brigade would redeploy its units and move them from one theatre of war to
18 another, from one part of the front line to another.
19 Q. So in your statement --
20 A. That's why this is a complex matter. It has to be followed
22 Q. So in your statement in paragraphs 20 through 27, you describe
23 very specific locations of ABiH forces and weaponry, but you don't
24 include any dates as to what -- as to when this intelligence would be
25 accurate. So as you've described it in your statement, it's difficult to
1 verify where things are located without a date; is that correct?
2 A. No, that's not correct. This data relates to the period when the
3 corps was under the command of General Galic.
4 JUDGE ORIE: But that still is quite a period of time, isn't it?
5 If you say they move from one place to another, that could have been done
6 during the tenure of General Galic as well.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. MacGregor.
9 MS. MacGREGOR: [Microphone not activated] As I understand it,
10 the map -- the ABiH map is already in evidence --
11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
12 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you. As I understand it, the ABiH map is
13 already in evidence, so I won't be moving that into evidence. Okay.
14 JUDGE ORIE: There is one issue, Ms. MacGregor. You gave us a
15 marked version to look at and I take it that the copy in evidence is not
16 the marked version. Therefore, it's important that we know exactly what
17 you marked for us and what we looked at, which is, I would say, one of
18 the few clear flags on that map.
19 MS. MacGREGOR: Correct.
20 JUDGE ORIE: And perhaps it would be best if you enlarge the
21 relevant portion, including the Alipasino Polje area, and tender that
22 into evidence so that it's later possible to know what we looked at and
23 what we compared as far as positions are concerned.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE ORIE: There is a suggestion that you tender again the same
1 map with your marking and on -- at page 2, an extract of that map which
2 more clearly indicates exactly where that marking is in relation to the
3 surrounding -- surrounding buildings and streets, et cetera.
4 MS. MacGREGOR: And if it's all right with the Chamber, I'll work
5 on that --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 MS. MacGREGOR: -- on a break and get back to you. I think
8 unfortunately when it's zoomed in on e-court, it is very, very difficult
9 to see. So I think Judge Fluegge's --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I did that, and it certainly gives a better
11 indication than just without. At least it's clear where the flag is.
12 It's also clear where Alipasino Polje is, so it gives a better
13 opportunity to get an impression of where that flag exactly is located.
14 MS. MacGREGOR: If Your Honours have an opportunity to look at
15 the hard copy, it actually is incredibly much easier to see everything on
16 that map than -- than you would guess from the e-court version.
17 JUDGE ORIE: I tend to disagree, but we have them both.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam MacGregor, if I might just ask a question.
19 Am I correct to say that in fact that flag we are talking about you
20 associate with the 102nd Light Brigade, and I thought you said that 102
21 is -- can be seen on the map here, and I would like you to show it to me
22 if you can, please.
23 MS. MacGREGOR: If you give me a moment just to review your
24 question, Your Honour.
25 The 102nd can be seen on the large map in the location -- the
1 large ABiH map in the location where I've placed a red circle on the hard
2 copy which I've provided to the Chamber.
3 JUDGE ORIE: But I think what --
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
5 JUDGE ORIE: What just -- can we see there, is there an
6 indication of 102? Can we read something that makes that flag or is
7 it --
8 MS. MacGREGOR: On the hard map next to the witness, yes, you
9 can. On the version that you have, I certainly can't read "102" in
10 there. I don't know --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Our eyes may be --
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That's just below the flag itself, a little bit
13 to the right. Is that correct?
14 MS. MacGREGOR: I actually think it's inside the triangle of the
15 flag, Your Honour. It's --
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You can't see anything on the hard copy.
17 JUDGE ORIE: That's exactly why we have difficulties. Could we
18 again have Exhibit - what was it? - 2959 -- 2952 on our screens. And
19 could we enlarge on where the flag appears.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: No, further down.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Much further.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Much further down. To the left. To the left.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Where now can we --
24 MS. MacGREGOR: A little --
25 JUDGE ORIE: -- see the --
1 MS. MacGREGOR: A little north-west of centre.
2 JUDGE ORIE: No, I see where it is, but I would like to read the
3 "102" somewhere.
4 MS. MacGREGOR: Again, it's inside the flag. At this level you
5 won't be able to see it.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And --
7 MS. MacGREGOR: It is on the hard copy of the map.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can you explain, Ms. MacGregor, the number below
9 the flag, a little bit to the right?
10 MS. MacGREGOR: Your Honour, I --
11 JUDGE ORIE: One -- one second, please.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE ORIE: We take a break now, and the Chamber would like to
16 have an opportunity to look at the map which is in the courtroom at this
17 moment so as to know for sure whether we really -- we find 102 just --
18 what seems to us to be just below the flag rather than in the flag
19 itself. We would like to have an opportunity to do that. But we first
20 invite the witness to follow the usher and be back with us in 20 minutes
21 from now.
22 [The witness stands down]
23 JUDGE ORIE: We take a break, but most likely the Chamber will
24 first have a look at the map but does that --
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. If we leave the courtroom, if then we would
2 find an empty courtroom in two or three minutes after that, then we have
3 a look at the map. And we resume at quarter to 2.00.
4 --- Recess taken at 1.27 p.m.
5 --- On resuming at 1.47 p.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: We briefly move into private session.
7 [Private session]
23 [Open session]
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, needless to say that in addition to what I said
2 in private session, of course, the Chamber always gives an opportunity to
3 further explore any reasons for any such request and only decides after
4 it has heard all that.
5 Then the witness can be escorted into the courtroom.
6 Meanwhile, I put on the record that the Chamber during the break
7 had a look at the map which is now in the courtroom and which we have
8 looked at under number P2952. And on the original from which the -- from
9 which the e-court version is scanned, it is clear that the flag the
10 Prosecution has drawn our attention to, in the flag itself the numbers
11 102 are clearly visible, whereas immediately below the flag, at the
12 bottom of the flag, there is a clear reference to the
13 102nd Light Infantry Brigade. I put that hereby on the record. If the
14 parties would disagree on it, the Chamber would like to know that without
16 [The witness takes the stand]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And as the suggestion or at least a request to
18 upload an extract of the map so that we know exactly what flag you have
19 drawn our attention to, because there are more flags on that map, is
20 still standing.
21 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you, Mr. President.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. MacGregor.
23 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you. And we won't be using the map
24 anymore. I don't know if it needs to remain on the easel or not.
25 JUDGE ORIE: We can leave it where it is --
1 MS. MacGREGOR: Okay.
2 JUDGE ORIE: -- at this moment.
3 MS. MacGREGOR: If I can please have Prosecution Exhibit P4900 in
4 e-court; specifically, page 21 of the English version and page 17 of the
5 B/C/S version.
6 Q. While we wait for that to come to the screen, Colonel Bukva, I'm
7 again going to show you the document that we looked at before, the rules
8 of service for military security organs. We're going to focus on
9 chapter 5, a few paragraphs in this chapter. And the title of the
10 chapter 5, as you see hopefully on your screen now, is: "The Operational
11 Procedure of Security Organs in Criminal Procedure." I draw your
12 attention to paragraph 52.
13 MS. MacGREGOR: It may help to enlarge the B/C/S left-hand side
14 of the screen. Thank you.
15 Q. Now, I read from paragraph 52:
16 "When there are reasonable grounds to suspect that a crime within
17 a security organ's competence has been committed ..."
18 Now stopping there, can you explain for the Chamber what types of
19 crime would fall under a security organ's competence as referred to here?
20 A. Perhaps I won't remember all of them that are listed in that law,
21 but first of all, I just need to remind you that these rules of the
22 security service applied to peacetime conditions and it was taken over
23 from the former JNA. In the rules of the procedure of the JNA, it is
24 stated, among other things, that crimes - and here we're talking about
25 crimes committed against the armed forces - are those crimes which
1 jeopardise the security -- the personal security and the property of the
2 armed forces.
3 To be clear, once again, I have read the whole paragraph, what is
4 being discussed here are crimes that are perpetrated against members of
5 the armed forces.
6 Q. You've said -- you said these rules were the rules of the former
7 JNA, and is -- is it correct that the VRS, for the most part, adopted
8 these rules?
9 A. Yes, yes. Like I said, this rule was taken from the JNA. And it
10 applied to peacetime conditions. Since Republika Srpska never proclaimed
11 a state of war, we operated according to the peacetime rules. So this
12 article was in force in the VRS.
13 Q. And it was in force during the years of the war, even though
14 technically the VRS had not declared a war. Is my understanding correct?
15 A. Republika Srpska never declared a state of war, not the VRS. The
16 assembly is the one that declares a state of war as the supreme organ of
17 power. Since this did not happen in Republika Srpska, then the
18 Army of Republika Srpska operated according to peacetime rules, and the
19 security services, accordingly, operated to this rule which had been
20 inherited from the JNA.
21 Q. Thank you for the clarification. Continuing with paragraph 52
22 where we left off:
23 "... authorised officers of the security organ are obliged the
24 take necessary measures to ensure that the perpetrator of a crime is
25 found, that the perpetrator or accomplice does not go into hiding or
1 escape, that traces of the crime and objects that may serve as evidence
2 are discovered and secured, and also that all information that may be of
3 use for the successful pursuit of criminal proceedings is gathered."
4 Is that description consistent with your understanding of your
5 obligations during your time at the SRK intelligence department?
6 A. Here we're talking about the obligations of the security organs,
7 and this is a completely different area which doesn't have anything in
8 common with the intelligence organs. So this paragraph does not refer to
9 intelligence organs. And in the heading of the chapter it states: "The
10 Operational Procedure of Security Organs in Criminal Procedure." So they
11 did have some duties in relation to investigative procedures, but
12 intelligence organs did not do any such jobs.
13 Q. So you were not required to, for example, ensure that
14 necessary -- excuse me, to take necessary measures to ensure that a
15 perpetrator of a crime is found?
16 A. That does not -- that is not stated in the law. The law did not
17 oblige us to do that, no.
18 Q. Your focused on the use of the word "security" -- excuse me, the
19 phrase "security organs" at the top of the chapter. I'd like to look a
20 little bit more into how this manual defines that term so that we can
21 better understand it.
22 MS. MacGREGOR: If we can please look at paragraph 2. This is
23 both e-court and English -- excuse me, both English and B/C/S e-court
24 page 6.
25 Q. We're going to look now at a chapter that's called: "Competence
1 and Tasks of Security Organs." Would you agree with me this, again, only
2 refers to security organs and not to intelligence organs?
3 A. That is correct. I agree.
4 Q. If you look at paragraph 2, there is a reference to detecting and
5 preventing activities aimed against the armed forces and the preparations
6 of the armed forces for the country's defence. Now, your job was to
7 detect information that would put the SRK at risk; is that right?
8 A. Yes, yes.
9 MS. MacGREGOR: If we can please look at paragraph 6(b). It's on
10 the same page in the B/C/S but on the next page on the English.
11 Q. I'll read again:
12 "Security organs are responsible for the detection, tracking, and
13 prevention of hostile activities by individuals, groups, or organisations
14 against the armed forces and members of the armed forces ..."
15 Now, would you agree that your job included the detection,
16 tracking, and prevention of those hostile activities?
17 A. What is written in the paragraph refers to counter-intelligence
18 activities which are conducted by the security organs and organs of the
19 military police. So these are counter-intelligence activities whose
20 purpose is to prevent the endangerment of units of the JNA or, in this
21 case, units of the VRS. This --
22 Q. Where do you see the reference --
23 A. -- did not apply. You need to differentiate between security
24 work and intelligence work which has a completely different function.
25 Q. I understand. I'm attempting to do that. I don't see a
1 reference in paragraph 6(b) to counter-intelligence work. Can you show
2 us where that is?
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Counter-intelligence is, according to the
4 witness's evidence, is the function of security; therefore, this topic
5 here relates to counter-intelligence because it's for security. In --
6 MS. MacGREGOR: Your Honours, if I may ask him about this. The
7 entire manual is actually referring to security organs and --
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's right.
9 MS. MacGREGOR: -- then I'd like to ask his understanding of the
11 Q. I ask again: Is there a specific reference to
12 counter-intelligence in paragraph 6(b)?
13 MR. LUKIC: Sorry. We have it in the title. It says: "Security
14 organs should carry next tasks." So it says "security organs," so it
15 creates only confusion.
16 JUDGE ORIE: It's -- but I think the issue is whether it says
17 anywhere "counter-intelligence" because that was part of the witness --
18 his answers. I give an opportunity to Ms. MacGregor to further explore.
19 MS. MacGREGOR:
20 Q. There are two issues I'm trying to explore with you,
21 Colonel Bukva. So let's start with the issue of -- you have described
22 paragraph 6(b) as referring to counter-intelligence activities. Can you
23 explain why you believe 6(b) is only referring to counter-intelligence
25 A. It's not just 6(b) that refers to counter-intelligence
1 activities. Generally, all functions of the security organs could be
2 referred to by a single name and that would be counter-intelligence,
3 protection of units and institutions of the Army of Republika Srpska.
4 Protection from threats from the opposite side, coming from the enemy
5 side. So under one name, all measures that intelligence or security
6 organs undertake are counter-intelligence activities. These are
7 preventative measures, organisational measures, all types of measures
8 undertaken by security organs.
9 Q. In your answer you've just said that:
10 "... under one name, all measures that intelligence or security
11 organs undertake are counter-intelligence activities."
12 And then you said:
13 "These are preventative measures, organisational measures, all
14 types of measures undertaken by security organs."
15 So those two sentences are slightly different. The first
16 sentence implies that intelligence organs undertake counter-intelligence
17 activities. Do intelligence organs undertake counter-intelligence
18 activities as you understand that term?
19 A. No, no, you misunderstood me. Intelligence organs do not carry
20 our counter-intelligence measures. Counter-intelligence measures are the
21 result of the work and of the evaluation of the situation, the results of
22 information that is gathered and evaluation of the situation --
23 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to slow down.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Witness, could you please slow down and
25 could you resume your answer by where you said:
1 "... the results of information that is gathered and evaluation
2 of the situation ..."
3 And could you resume from there.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. On the basis of intelligence
5 information gathered and the conclusions on the basis of an evaluation of
6 the situation, security organs propose measures of a preventive nature,
7 organisation and technical nature or any other nature whose objective is
8 to neutralise negative influences or effects on the units of the Army of
9 Republika Srpska which would be coming from the enemy's side.
10 MS. MacGREGOR:
11 Q. You seem to be emphasizing right now that only the security
12 organs were involved in counter-intelligence evaluation. And I refer you
13 to your testimony earlier today at temporary page 49, where I ask you
14 about the reference to counter-intelligence evaluation in paragraph 29 of
15 this same document. Your answer, starting at line 19 on page 49, is as
17 "Counter-intelligence evaluation is a thought process in the work
18 of the intelligence and security organs. It's one of the tasks of the
19 security organs."
20 So I may be misunderstanding you but there are at least two times
21 where you have referred to counter-intelligence work as being a task of
22 both the security organ and the intelligence organ. So can you please
23 clarify if it is, in fact, a role that both types of organs undertake?
24 A. No, it's a misunderstanding, and I apologise if I'm the one who's
25 responsible for that, but I state decisively the following. I repeat:
1 Intelligence organs work on intelligence and that has nothing to do with
2 counter-intelligence. That work has nothing to do with
3 counter-intelligence work. As for the security organs, and I said that
4 when I speak about the counter-intelligence evaluation that is the basic
5 method of work of the security organs, exclusively the security organs.
6 So I don't know how this misunderstanding came about. So the main method
7 of work of security organs is counter-intelligence, and I said that it's
8 a thought process that goes on continuously.
9 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] --
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Ms. MacGregor, you should perhaps make a
11 distinction between counter-intelligence and counter-intelligence
12 evaluation. Counter-intelligence is not the same as counter-intelligence
14 MS. MacGREGOR: I understand what your point is, Your Honour. I
15 will go back through the testimony. I believe that it hasn't been that
16 clear as a distinction.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Now, could I --
18 MS. MacGREGOR: I'll move on.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Could I just try to seek some clarity. Let me just
20 try to tell you how I understood your testimony in this respect and if
21 could you then perhaps either confirm or say that I understood it all
23 I do understand that intelligence is collecting all kind of
24 information which -- especially about enemy forces, which is relevant for
25 any operational decision-making process. Is that more or less well
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, in principle, yes, that is
3 well understood.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Now I understand counter-intelligence to be the
5 activity to undermine the intelligence of the opposing armed forces; that
6 is, either to block their sources of information or to prevent them from
7 learning secret information from your armed forces. And I also
8 understood that you said gathering information about the enemy,
9 intelligence, was the task of the intelligence service; whereas
10 undermining, blocking, frustrating, the intelligence of the opponent
11 armed forces was the task of the security unit. That is how I more or
12 less understood your testimony. Is that well understood or do you say
13 no, you're totally wrong in understanding my testimony?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You have understood it excellently,
15 precisely as it should be understood.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Before I start blushing, Ms. MacGregor will continue
17 her examination -- her cross-examination.
18 MS. MacGREGOR: [Microphone not activated] If we can go back,
19 then, to paragraph --
20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
21 MS. MacGREGOR: If we can return to paragraph 6(b).
22 Q. This part I read to you is as follows:
23 "Security organs are responsible for the detection, tracking, and
24 prevention of hostile activities by individuals, groups or organisations
25 against the armed forces or members of the armed forces."
1 Would you agree that your role included the detection and
2 tracking of such information?
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think that was 6(a).
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.
5 MS. MacGREGOR:
6 Q. It's, if you look at 6(b), the detection and prevention -- oh,
7 I -- sorry, yes. With the word "tracking." Can you look, Mr. Witness,
8 at paragraph 6(a). I'll read again.
9 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you to Judge Fluegge.
10 Q. "The detection, tracking, and prevention of intelligence
11 activities ..."
12 MS. MacGREGOR: Actually, I'm sorry. I am sticking to 6(b) but
13 removing the word "tracking" and that -- I see where the confusion is.
14 Q. Colonel Bukva, were you responsible for the detection of hostile
15 activities by individuals, groups or organisations against the armed
17 A. Well, your question seems to indicate again that the gist has
18 been misunderstood. No. Intelligence work is directed towards the
19 enemy, not towards one's own forces. What you're talking about, 6(b), is
20 the work of the security organs, exclusively the work of security organs.
21 Q. Do you agree that the title of this manual is: "The Rules of
22 Service for Military Security Organs," the entire manual?
23 A. Yes, yes. I think that is what it says on the cover of the
25 Q. And you testified --
1 A. These are the rules of the security organs.
2 Q. And you testified this morning that these were the rules that
3 outlined your obligations as part of the intelligence organ?
4 MR. LUKIC: Objection. I wanted to object before. Now you
5 have -- at page 49, the question was put in reference of security organs.
6 Not intelligence organs. And all the answers were in connection to
7 security organs, when first it was [overlapping speakers] --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, you want to say that it misstates the
10 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is granted.
12 MR. LUKIC: There are separate rules for his service.
13 JUDGE ORIE: There was a ruling, Mr. Lukic. The objection is
15 Please rephrase your question.
16 MS. MacGREGOR: I'm not sure I understand the objection. I'm
17 referring to testimony that this witness gave earlier when we referred to
18 this document, much earlier. The first time we looked at this document.
19 And I can find the reference if you like. I see that we're past the time
20 for the end of the day, but I'm not referring to the testimony he just
21 gave just a few minutes ago.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then -- yes, what I should have done, as a
23 matter of fact, is I should have given you an opportunity to respond.
24 Where are you referring to if not to page 49?
25 MR. LUKIC: It's 49, line 3. It's --
1 JUDGE ORIE: No, no --
2 MR. LUKIC: It's not a couple of minutes ago.
3 JUDGE ORIE: But -- no, Ms. MacGregor has an opportunity to
4 indicate where she is referring to if it is different from what Mr. Lukic
5 referred to.
6 MS. MacGREGOR: I will have found it in a moment if you grant me
7 just a small dispensation. Okay. Sorry. Okay. I --
8 JUDGE ORIE: If -- you found it?
9 MS. MacGREGOR: Yes. I am at transcript page 48. And this is
10 when I first showed Colonel Bukva this document. And at line 24, I
12 "Does this document outline the rules for the work of your unit?"
13 And he answered:
15 And that is the question -- that is the answer that I was
16 questioning him about at this point in time.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And your next question makes clear that this
18 paragraph, there is a reference to security organs conducting
19 counter-intelligence evaluation.
20 MS. MacGREGOR: Yes, the next question which is specifically
21 about paragraph 28. The point I'm getting at is that the entire manual
22 is entitled -- is directed towards security organs. That's the only
23 point I'm trying to get across, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: There is no dispute in that respect. It all is
25 about security organs.
1 MS. MacGREGOR: And he's testified that the manual did apply to
2 his work. I just trying to confirm that. That's all I'm actually trying
3 to confirm.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: And I think what he's trying --
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: His unit. "If this document outlines the rules
6 of the work for your unit." That was your question. What do -- that was
7 very unclear. Which unit did you refer to?
8 MS. MacGREGOR: Shall I -- I'll put the question to him with more
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And could you please -- if you further want to
11 explore the matter, irrespective of whether that is -- will greatly
12 assist the Chamber, then perhaps the way in which it was organised - that
13 is, which tasks were put together in what kind of units and what these
14 tasks exactly were, security, intelligence - should be clearly
15 distinguished. The organisational aspect is not the same as the
16 functional aspect in terms of task. Could you please keep that in mind.
17 I'll leave it to you whether you want to further explore the matter.
18 MS. MacGREGOR: I would just have one question.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Then please put that question to the witness.
20 MS. MacGREGOR: I withdraw the question.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Well, then that's -- yes. Then please proceed.
22 MS. MacGREGOR: Yes.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's time.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have no -- yes, yes. It's time.
25 MS. MacGREGOR: Yes, I'm sorry. That's what I meant,
1 Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But is this a withdrawal only for the day or
3 for the week, to say so?
4 MS. MacGREGOR: I have further questions for this witness.
5 JUDGE ORIE: But not that one question you had on your mind?
6 MS. MacGREGOR: I'm going to take the opportunity to think on it,
7 Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's always very wise. I think everyone
9 would agree with that.
10 Mr. Bukva, we'll adjourn for the day. We'll resume tomorrow
11 morning at 9.30 in this same courtroom, II. And I inform the parties
12 that we are more or less condemned to stay in this courtroom II for the
13 rest of the week, the technical problems not having overcome yet.
14 But before you follow the usher, Mr. Bukva, I would like to
15 instruct you that you should not speak or communicate in whatever way to
16 whomever about your testimony, whether that is testimony you have given
17 today or whether that is testimony still to be given tomorrow. If that's
18 clear to you, you may follow the usher.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 [The witness stands down]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. MacGregor, in terms of time, where are we?
22 MS. MacGREGOR: [Microphone not activated] I believe -- I believe
23 I've used just over half of my time, and I intend to finish tomorrow,
24 probably not in the first section -- session but in the second session.
25 I would imagine I have about an hour to an hour and a half more of
2 JUDGE ORIE: Then that's clear to us. We adjourn for the day and
3 will resume tomorrow, Tuesday, the 2nd of September, 9.30 in the morning,
4 in this same courtroom, II.
5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.22 p.m.,
6 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 2nd day of
7 September, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.