Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 25316

 1                           Monday, 8 September 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you and good morning, Your Honours.  This

 9     is the case number IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

11             Judge Moloto is for reasons of authorised Tribunal business is

12     unable to continue to sit for a period which is likely to be of short

13     duration, and Judge Fluegge and myself are satisfied that it's in the

14     interest of justice to continue to hear the case in the absence of Judge

15     Moloto.  And since we expect that it will not be for a period of longer

16     than five working days, we decided that we'll proceed under Rule 15 bis.

17             Are there any preliminary matters?  I am not informed of any.

18     Therefore, we are at a point where the Defence is invited to call its

19     next witness, a witness to be called by videolink.

20             Mr. Ivetic.

21             MR. IVETIC:  That's correct, Your Honour.  The Defence at this

22     time would call Milosav Gagovic via videolink.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Let's then first establish whether the

24     videolink is functioning.

25             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink]  Good morning, Your Honours.


Page 25317

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Madam Registrar.

 2                           [The witness enters court via videolink]

 3             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink]  We can hear you and we can see

 4     you and witness just entered the videolink room.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could you inform us who else are in the

 6     videolink room?

 7             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink]  Apart from myself and the

 8     witness, there is one ITSS official.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar, for that.

10             Good morning, Witness, Mr. Gagovic, I presume.

11             I see that you are now putting on your earphones.

12             Good morning, Mr. Gagovic, I presume.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [via videolink] Good morning.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Gagovic, before you give evidence, the Rules

15     require that you make a solemn declaration.  The text will be handed out

16     to you.  May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.

17                           WITNESS:  MILOSAV GAGOVIC

18                           [Witness answered through interpretation]

19                           [Witness testified via videolink]

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [via videolink] I solemnly declare

21     that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Gagovic.  Please be seated.

23             Mr. Gagovic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Ivetic.  Mr. Ivetic

24     is a member of Mr. Mladic's Defence team.

25             Mr. Ivetic, you may proceed.


Page 25318

 1             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 2                           Examination by Mr. Ivetic:

 3        Q.   Good morning, Colonel.  Can you please state your full name for

 4     the record.

 5        A.   Good morning.  I'm a retired colonel.  My name is

 6     Milosav Gagovic.

 7             MR. IVETIC:  I would ask that you be shown 1D4121, a witness

 8     statement from the Karadzic proceedings.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [via videolink] It's quite small.

10     The letters are small.  I cannot see anything.  But the document is in

11     front of me, yes.

12             MR. IVETIC:  Then I'm waiting for the same to come up on e-court

13     on this end.

14             If we could please turn to the last page in the Serbian language.

15        Q.   Sir, I would direct your attention to the signature at the bottom

16     of the page, and I would ask if you could identify for us whose signature

17     we see there.

18        A.   Yes, that's my signature.

19        Q.   And subsequent to signing this statement for the Karadzic case,

20     did you have occasion to review the same in the Serbian language to

21     ascertain if everything is correct therein?

22        A.   I have just looked at it.  I've read it and signed it.

23        Q.   And do you stand by everything as contained in your written

24     statement as being accurate?

25        A.   Yes.


Page 25319

 1        Q.   And, sir, if I were to ask you today questions about the same

 2     topics as contained in your written statement, would the answers that you

 3     would give today be in essence the same as in the statement?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And given that you have taken a solemn declaration to tell the

 6     truth, would those answers as contained in the statement be truthful in

 7     nature?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I tender the statement 1D4121 into

10     evidence at this time.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, the statement would receive number?

12             THE REGISTRAR:  That would be Exhibit D622, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence in the absence of any

14     objections.

15             Please proceed.

16             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

17             Your Honour, we also have three associated exhibits that as of

18     yet are not in evidence out of the five that are mentioned in the

19     statement.  However, since the statement is from the Karadzic case, it

20     has 65 ter numbers from that case.  So I wanted to seek Your Honour's

21     guidance as to how we should memorialise the corresponding Mladic

22     numbers.  I would suggest, perhaps, filing a chart as an additional

23     exhibit listing both sets of numbers and then advising the parties and

24     the Registrar of the number of that document once it's in e-court, if

25     that's Your Honour's preference.


Page 25320

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Filing a chart, and I take it from Ms. Bibles

 2     nodding that she agrees, that it would be an appropriate solution.

 3             MS. BIBLES:  That's correcting Your Honour.  A table of

 4     concordance, thank you.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Table of concordance to be filed by the Defence,

 6     Mr. Ivetic.

 7             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I will do that and then I

 8     will advise Your Honours accordingly of the identification number for

 9     that document.

10             At this time I would like to read are a brief summary of the

11     witness's statement which has been explained to the witness.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

13             MR. IVETIC:  Between 1988 and 1992, Colonel Gagovic was the

14     assistant for logistics in the JNA 4th Corps in Sarajevo.  From 10 May

15     1992 to 1 June 1992, he was the acting commander of the JNA 4th Corps in

16     Sarajevo.

17             His testimony is that the SDA headed by Alija Izetbegovic seemed

18     to follow the goals publicly promulgated by Izetbegovic; namely, that an

19     Islamic state could be created in Bosnia-Herzegovina, whereas the SDS and

20     Dr. Karadzic wanted all the constitutive people of Bosnia-Herzegovina to

21     be created equality.

22             Already in 1990 and 1991, the 4th Corps received information

23     about SDA and HDZ paramilitaries being formed in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  The

24     referendum on independence was presented by Izetbegovic to the JNA as

25     really being a move to strengthen his personal bargaining position with


Page 25321

 1     the other republican presidents rather than for independence.

 2             After said referendum, a witch hunt started against Serbs in

 3     Sarajevo.  Various Serbs were killed and families received threats to

 4     leave their apartment or be killed.

 5             A paramilitary commanded by Sefer Halilovic made up of Muslims

 6     from the Sandzak region in Serbia attacked Ilidza in April 1992 from

 7     Sokolovic Colony.  The BiH presidency asked for the JNA to intervene and

 8     send a unit to this area.  However, when the JNA complied, the crew of a

 9     JNA transporter was taken captive and killed by the Muslim forces.

10             After the JNA was blockaded in its barracks, the Muslim forces

11     attacked the airport.  The HJNA reached an agreement with Alija

12     Izetbegovic, witnessed by General MacKenzie and Colm Doyle, for a

13     peaceful withdrawal of the JNA from Sarajevo.  However, the Muslim side

14     attacked the convoy and reneged on the agreement killing five JNA

15     colonels, eight military policemen, and one Muslim civilian female

16     serving in the JNA, while wounding and taking captive others.  Those

17     taken captive were beaten at the Partizan Sports Complex.

18             The witness knows of several documents issued by the Muslim

19     leadership in Sarajevo instructing that JNA convoys be attacked.

20             The witness states that the JNA was not working on a division of

21     Sarajevo.

22             And that completes the summary.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.  If you have any additional

24     questions you may put them to the witness.

25             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.


Page 25322

 1        Q.   Colonel, I do have some more questions.  If we could first look

 2     at paragraph 11, which is on page 3 of the English and page 5 of the

 3     Serbian in your statement.

 4             Here you talk of a witch hunt against Serbs in Sarajevo following

 5     the Bosnian referendum.  Who were the perpetrators of these various

 6     incidents and killings that you have described in this paragraph?

 7        A.   Those who played a main role in the killings that I mentioned in

 8     this paragraph were, up until that time, paramilitary forces of the

 9     Muslims.  And they were supported, in my opinion, by the legal

10     leadership.

11             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters note, we can hardly hear the

12     witness.  The interpreters are not able to hear the witness.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.

14             Could the witness come closer to the microphones because the

15     interpreters have difficulties in hearing him, and could we restart.

16             Is it -- could you say a few words, Witness, so we can check

17     whether the interpreters are now able to hear you?  Are there any

18     problems as far as the interpretation is concerned?

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Your Honour, it seems that when the witness

20     began the volume was loud and then it's suddenly so low we can hardly

21     hear him.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That seems to be a technical problem because I

23     also hear -- when the witness starts speaking I hear him clearly.

24             And then -- is it -- could you speak another few words,

25     Mr. Gagovic?


Page 25323

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [via videolink] Let me continue

 2     now.  The first incident was the killing of the father of the bridegroom

 3     Nikola Gadovic and the priest was also killed, the one who was supposed

 4     to perform the marriage of the bride and groom.

 5             After that, sportsmen were attacked.  There was a person who was

 6     in the Bosnia-Herzegovina martial arts team and he was supposed to take

 7     part in a demonstration for the independence of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Then

 8     there were the two Trifkovic brothers.  One of them was crucified on the

 9     Jewish cemetery like Christ as one could say.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I stop you there.  You're repeating what we

11     find already in the statement.  The question was:  Who were responsible

12     for those incidents?  Rather than to repeat to describe them.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [via videolink] All right.  I don't

14     know how much of this information you have.  The legal and the legitimate

15     authorities of the city of Sarajevo and of the Republic of Bosnia and

16     Herzegovina were responsible because it's normal that the organs that the

17     people elected would be responsible for everything that goes on in a

18     republic.  And this was carried out by members of the paramilitary forces

19     and the police forces that were then made up by -- made up of Muslims.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, perhaps the source of knowledge and the

21     identification of perpetrators might need some further attention.

22             MR. IVETIC:

23        Q.   Sir, could you please tell the Court what is the bases of your

24     knowledge of the perpetrators of these incidents in paragraph 11 in your

25     statement?


Page 25324

 1        A.   Based on information that was available during that time and

 2     through the television and from other information, the daily newspapers,

 3     and, of course, on the basis of everything that happened, the corpses and

 4     the victims that were being buried in Sarajevo during that time.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bibles, is there any dispute about these

 6     incidents having taken place?

 7             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Or do you challenge --

 9             MS. BIBLES:  -- in terms -- in terms of the events themselves,

10     obviously there has been testimony about this.  We don't -- there may

11     be -- there is dispute, perhaps, about the details.  But in terms of the

12     events having taken place and been newsworthy, certainly not.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And the Prosecution does not challenge that if

14     an attack on a Serbia wedding party taken place, that it would not have

15     been Serbs who attacked that wedding party.  Is that -- without saying,

16     then, who exactly was responsible.

17             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, I would have to defer.  I would have to

18     do some checking before I could agree to that on the record.  Thank you.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But there is no challenge at this moment in

20     this respect.

21             Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

22             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

23             If we could now move --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  And it may be clear that if this is part of the

25     statement where perpetrators are mentioned, that it comes as a bit of a


Page 25325

 1     surprise that the witness learned it from television and from the media

 2     because then we'd rather have a look at the media and find out what was

 3     published about the events at the time, the events in itself not being in

 4     dispute.

 5             Please proceed.

 6             MR. IVETIC:

 7        Q.   If we can move to paragraph 31 through 32 of your written

 8     statement.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  That's in page 11 of the Serbian and page 7 and 8 of

10     the English.

11        Q.   Here, sir, you are describing the situation revolving around the

12     Faletici weapons depot.  Can you please provide for details about whom

13     attacked whom and how the Serb TO got involved in this incident?

14        A.   The weapons depot in Faletici was guarded by members of the

15     Yugoslav Peoples' Army.  The attack was carried out by the paramilitary

16     forces of the Muslims.  There was a conflict between the security and the

17     attackers.  There was a TO company in the immediate vicinity of the

18     Serbian municipality of Pale, because the depot was halfway between Pale

19     and Sarajevo.  The company went to protect the security of the depot.

20     The Muslim forces pulled back.  According to the data that was available

21     to us, there were no dead or wounded on either side.

22             The Serb forces then managed to get their hands on the equipment

23     and weaponry that was in the Faletici depot.  The presidency of Bosnia

24     and Herzegovina intervened with the command of the 2nd Military District

25     requesting that they be given two-thirds of the weaponry because


Page 25326

 1     allegedly, according to the population structure, the ratio between the

 2     Serbs, Muslims, and Croats, that was proportion that was due to them.

 3     The JNA didn't have the opportunity to take back the weapons, and so the

 4     General Staff decided to bring a certain amount of requested weaponry

 5     from the Pancevo depot.  This was light infantry weaponry.

 6             In agreement with the B and H presidency and the UNPROFOR

 7     command, the weapons were to be shipped to the facility where UNPROFOR

 8     was.  This was the former PTT engineering building in Sarajevo and that

 9     it should not be handed either to the population nor to the paramilitary

10     forces directly.  However, when the first trailer-trucks arrived with the

11     weapons and crossed into the territory being covered by the Muslim

12     paramilitary forces, the trailer-trucks were stopped and the weapons were

13     looted and taken from the vehicles.  The other vehicles were stopped and

14     so there were no more weapons shipments.

15        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Just to clarify one aspect.  You mentioned

16     Pancevo.  Where is Pancevo located?

17        A.   Pancevo is in the immediate vicinity of Belgrade in the Republic

18     of Serbia.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I put a question to the witness, in the

20     meantime.

21             I would like to know how you, Mr. Gagovic, learned about all of

22     that, what you told us just a minute ago?  What is the source of your

23     knowledge?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [via videolink] I was assistant

25     commander for logistics at the time, and the assets and vehicles went


Page 25327

 1     through Lukavica, where I was billeted, together with my organs.  We

 2     exerted our influence for the assets to arrive to the PTT engineering

 3     building.  We secured their passage until we reached the territory

 4     controlled by the paramilitary Muslim forces.  I think it was close to

 5     the Nedzarici line in Sarajevo.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you for that clarification.

 7             MR. IVETIC:

 8        Q.   Now, Colonel, were all weapons depots guarded by the JNA or with

 9     were there also depots guarded by other entities?

10        A.   In Sarajevo and it's environs, there were depots secured by

11     organs of the TO.  They were the depots of smaller units, territorial

12     companies and battalions.  There was also a depot in Busovaca which

13     belonged to the JNA, however it was guarded by the Croatian TO bodies;

14     that is to say, Bosnian Croats, those who resided in Bosnia that did not

15     come from Croatia.  Unfortunately, there was a clash at that depot

16     between the Croatian guards and Muslim bodies who came to take the part

17     of weapons they believed belonged to them.  Eleven Muslim members were

18     killed on the occasion.

19             Alija Izetbegovic, the president of the presidency, personally

20     engaged in -- was personally engaged in dealing with the problem,

21     together with Franjo Boras and Mr. Boban.  There was a danger of further

22     escalation between the Muslim and Croatian population.  They came up with

23     a solution that I'm not aware of.  In any case, the event that took place

24     at the Busovaca depot was never publicised.  It never went public.

25        Q.   Now, sir, in relation to those depots -- weapons depots that were


Page 25328

 1     guarded by the JNA, what were the standing orders from the JNA General

 2     Staff?  Were they supposed to give those weapons to any of the sides in

 3     the Bosnian conflict?

 4        A.   The General Staff order was that no one was to be issued with

 5     those weapons without prior approval.  In agreement with the TO command

 6     of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the weapons could only be distributed as part of

 7     that entity.  As for immediate use - that is to say, the weapons that had

 8     been previously used to train the TO of Bosnia-Herzegovina - the order

 9     could have been issued by the zone staff commander, the TO zone staff,

10     that is.  I believe that some time in September 1991 that right was

11     revoked and the most senior officer who could issue orders to have their

12     weapons issued for purposes of TO training became the corps commander.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Now I'd like to turn to paragraph 35 of your

14     statement.

15             MR. IVETIC:  To be found on page 8 in English, page 12 in the

16     Serbian.

17        Q.   And, sir, here you are discussing a document that changed the

18     name of some of the JNA 4th Corps units.  I'd like to direct your

19     attention to the document P4443 and would first ask you if this is, in

20     fact, the same document at issue?

21        A.   Yes, the document before me is the one you referred to.

22        Q.   Now, sir, during the Dragomir Milosevic trial --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we have a look at P4443 --

24             MR. IVETIC:  Oh, I apologise.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  -- as well.


Page 25329

 1             MR. IVETIC:

 2        Q.   Now, sir, during the Dragomir Milosevic trial you are recorded at

 3     transcript page 8701 as not recognising this document and saying that you

 4     cannot exclude it perhaps being a fake.  Can you please explain for us

 5     your current position as to the authenticity of this document?

 6        A.   When I testified in the Milosevic case and when I was shown this

 7     document, I asserted at the time, as I do now, that the signature on this

 8     document is mine.  I was then asked whether this document could be a

 9     counterfeit, and I did say that I could not exclude that possibility.

10     However, I really could not recall why I would have signed this document.

11     Later on I consulted the drafter of the document.  He confirmed as

12     follows:  The order referred to in this order issued by the command of

13     the 2nd Military District, although I cannot read it now because it is

14     too small, was the one that this is -- was based on.  Since many units of

15     the 4th JNA Corps were manned by military recruits, soldiers and officers

16     from Bosnia-Herzegovina - that is to say, Bosnian Serbs, Muslims, and a

17     small number of Croats - as of the 4th of May, the 4th Corps was ordered

18     to have all FRY citizens should be moved back to Yugoslavia.  And it was

19     then decided that the 4th Corps would become the Sarajevo Romanija Corps.

20             Given the fact that they knew how many of their members were FRY

21     citizens in the 4th Corps, they decided to rely on BH citizens to form

22     the nucleus of those units.  Some units were established anew as well.

23     The military district command on General Staff orders decided not to use

24     the establishment names when forming the units of the 4th Corps --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.


Page 25330

 1             Mr. Ivetic, you were asking about why the witness now

 2     considers -- would exclude that it's a fake.  Is there any dispute about

 3     this being a -- not a fake document but an authentic document?

 4             MS. BIBLES:  Certainly the position of the Prosecution is that it

 5     is an authentic document.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then --

 7             MS. BIBLES:  He has previously disputed that fact.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Why do we have to -- if that was a mistake in

 9     the past, why do we have to explore exactly why that was a mistake by the

10     witness where he now says that it's an authentic document.  And apart

11     from that, he's going into all kind of details which certainly are not

12     part of the question, Mr. Ivetic.  If you're interested in them, then

13     please put a focused question to the witness so that he can answer that

14     one instead of for minutes and minutes to explain the background of why

15     the 4th Corps was changed by name and please proceed.

16             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  But I would stress that we

17     have a discrepancy that we explored with the witness and which the

18     witness is explaining.  I hope that Your Honours are not saying that that

19     is an improper procedure to do with the witness, to discuss discrepancies

20     in prior testimony, because I think that's precisely what we are supposed

21     to do.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  But as a matter of fact, the present testimony

23     is not contested and you are supporting that as well.  There is no --

24     unless the Prosecution would later on in cross-examination start

25     discrediting the witness because he did not exclude for a possibility in


Page 25331

 1     the past.

 2             Is that your intention, Ms. Bibles?

 3             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, I think his testimony in the Dragomir

 4     Milosevic case was actually much stronger than excluding the possibility

 5     that it was a forgery.  We may --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

 7             MS. BIBLES:  -- pursue that in cross-examination.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  If that's the case, then you could also leave

 9     it for re-examination, but -- Mr. Ivetic, there seems to be no dispute

10     about the accuracy of the -- what the witness tells us now.

11             Please proceed.

12             MR. IVETIC:  Okay.  If we can then return to the witness

13     statement which is now marked D622, and if we could go to page 2 in

14     English -- and the bottom of page 2 and top of page 3 in the Serbian,

15     paragraph 5 of the statement.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  The bottom of page 2 is redacted, Mr. Ivetic.  I had

17     a similar --

18             MR. IVETIC:  I'm sorry.  Top --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  -- in the [Overlapping speakers].

20             MR. IVETIC:  It's on the bottom of page 2 in the B/C/S.  In the

21     English, paragraph 5 is the top of page 2 just above the reaction.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Paragraph number is?

23             MR. IVETIC:  5.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  5.  Because elsewhere in the statement we find a

25     reference to paragraph 6.  Paragraph is 6 --


Page 25332

 1             MR. IVETIC:  Redacted.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  -- redacted as well.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. IVETIC:

 5        Q.   Sir, in -- sir --

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   -- in paragraph -- in paragraph 5 --

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Sir, in paragraph 5 you mention a document from the JNA --

10        A.   There is no tone in my headset.

11        Q.   Can you hear me now?

12        A.   Yes, I can.

13        Q.   Sir, in this paragraph, you mention a document from JNA security

14     organs about the SDA paramilitaries.  I would like to show you 1D4202.

15             MR. IVETIC:  And if we can also call it up in e-court.

16        Q.   The first question I would have is:  Is this the document that is

17     referenced in this paragraph of your statement?

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Ivetic, this number is included and mentioned

19     in the Karadzic statement.  Is this the right statement in our case?

20             MR. IVETIC:  I apologise.  You're correct, Your Honours.  It's

21     1D4122 in our case.

22        Q.   And, sir, the question I have for you is:  Is this the same

23     document that is discussed in paragraph 5 of your statement?

24        A.   Yes, the contents are the same.  But this one seems to have been

25     copied several times.


Page 25333

 1        Q.   Now, this document talks of Muslim JNA members participating in

 2     meetings of these SDA paramilitaries.  What action did the JNA take

 3     against its members identified as participating in the Bosnian Muslim

 4     paramilitaries?

 5        A.   They were not sanctioned.  There were no measures applied, save

 6     for interviews which took place with those officers.  It was put to them

 7     that they may face consequences resulting from different events should

 8     Bosnia-Herzegovina problems be -- continue being dealt with in this way,

 9     through political leadership.  The work of those officers was monitored

10     by security organs, the very ones submitted this report.  When certain

11     officers sensed that they were being monitored, some of them did not wish

12     to change their course of action and left the JNA units.  They joined the

13     side they believed to be theirs.  As far as I know, not one of them was

14     sanctioned.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, could you guide the Chamber where we

16     find exactly the events or the incidents you were referring to in your

17     question?

18             MR. IVETIC:  Okay.  If we can turn to the last page in both

19     languages of the document that's up on the screen, we will see a

20     discussion of a captain, I believe, Sakib Mahmutovic.  On the English at

21     the top, we also have 2nd Lieutenant Safet Bejtovic.  If we go to the

22     prior page in English we have --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  But let me see.  Let me try to understand it.

24             Mahmutovic is described as a potential supporter at a meeting of

25     a group I'm not yet aware of.  I mean, this document is new for the


Page 25334

 1     Chamber, so therefore if you could take us with the witness through the

 2     document in such a way that we understand his testimony.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  Okay.

 4        Q.   Sir, could you please tell the Chamber what kind of information

 5     was reported to the JNA 4th Corps collegium by way of this report and

 6     others like it submitted during the relevant time-period?

 7        A.   I was a member of the corps commanders collegium as was the chief

 8     of intelligence, Lieutenant-Colonel Simovic at the time.  The collegium

 9     of the corps commander was regularly briefed on the contents of such

10     documents.  They involved events in the field and the activities of

11     certain political parties vis-ā-vis the JNA and amongst themselves as

12     well as their communication with their ethnic community and the other

13     communities.

14             The information flow continued in 1991 when the chief of security

15     at the corps command was Lieutenant-Colonel Fikret Muslimovic.  Upon his

16     departure for the national defence school, he was replaced by the former

17     desk officer of the department, Colonel -- actually,

18     Lieutenant-Colonel --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, there seems to be a great

20     misunderstanding.  Your question was:

21             "Now, this document talks of Muslim JNA members participating in

22     meetings of these SDA paramilitaries."

23             The only thing I'm trying to understand is where do I find this

24     in this document so that I know what the witness is talking about.

25             Witness, could you assist us in where exactly in this four-page


Page 25335

 1     document where Muslim JNA members participating in meetings with SDA

 2     paramilitary is to be found?

 3             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, perhaps there is a misunderstanding.

 4     Every paragraph on every page discusses that.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [via videolink] You have the names.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Then perhaps we should read -- let me see.

 7             Well, I'm unable to immediately identify in a four-page document

 8     whether this is the gist of the -- the gist of the document, but I'll ask

 9     for a copy to be printed out and have a look at it at the next break.

10             Then please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

11             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

12        Q.   Colonel, do you know why it was that the JNA did not take any

13     more stringent disciplinary action against its members and former members

14     who participated in such meetings?

15        A.   Because it was the position of the General Staff that the JNA, as

16     the military organisation, should not get involved in any political

17     matters in the field.  As for the officers themselves, they had the right

18     to be affiliated with a political party.  By the same token, the

19     institutions of the corps command were under an obligation to conduct

20     interviews with those officers trying to indicate to them that they took

21     a wrong turn along the way.  At the time, it was seen as a political

22     affiliation or a political opinion.  By that time, no political party was

23     openly against the JNA or the joint state.  At least according to the

24     statements they were making at the time.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Now I'd like to move to my final area of questioning


Page 25336

 1     on paragraph 40 of your statement, the last page in both languages.

 2     Again, your statement being D622.

 3             And, sir, in paragraph 40, you talk of a twisted image as to the

 4     number and distribution of heavy weapons in Sarajevo.  Could you please

 5     detail for us what is the twisted image you speak of and what was the

 6     true facts on the ground as to the heavy weapons number and distribution

 7     in Sarajevo?

 8        A.   The image was twisted not only in terms of the number of assets

 9     as well as many other pieces of information that was presented at the

10     time.  When it comes to artillery assets in the possession of both the

11     Serb and Muslim side, especially on the Serbian side, the numbers were

12     inflated even ten-fold.  So in the media, one could see notices to

13     citizens that there are 500-plus artillery pieces deployed around

14     Sarajevo as well as rocket systems and so on and so forth.  However, the

15     corps had the following assets of 120-, 130-millimetres as well as

16     150-millimetres.  We had a total of 54 artillery pieces including four

17     rocket systems of 128-millimetre calibre.  On the Muslim side, some 34

18     artillery pieces were left behind including a multiple rocket launcher of

19     128-millimetre calibre.

20             The media presented to the public that one side had several

21     hundred pieces, whereas the other side basic had none.  They said that no

22     weapons were left on the other side that used to belong to the JNA and

23     the training centre in Sarajevo.

24        Q.   Thank you, sir.  That question concludes my direct examination.

25     I thank you, Colonel, for your evidence.


Page 25337

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [via videolink] You're welcome.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, I had a glance through the document.  I

 4     tried to do it very quickly, Mr. Ivetic.  It seems that there is two

 5     specific versions are mentioned, one apparently retired JNA officer.  The

 6     other one a bit mysterious whether Mr. Imamovic was retired or was not

 7     retired.  That's what I could make up.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  And then on the list page, a Second Lieutenant Safet

 9     Bijetovic and a Captain Sakib Mahmutovic that I referenced during the

10     direct examination when I first called this document up.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Indicative information that was supposedly in

12     contact with their man at the MUP BH.  Yes.  There are certainly reasons

13     for the reporter to believe that there are links.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Ivetic, are you tendering this document?

15             MR. IVETIC:  It is an associated exhibit and so it was going to

16     be one of the ones that I was going to prepare a chart of concordance

17     for.  There are three that are not in evidence of the five that are

18     identified in the Karadzic case.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, talking about a chart of concordance, I think

20     that in your annex B to the motion that already the numbers in both the

21     Karadzic case and in the Mladic case appear next to each other, so there

22     seems to be already on the record some kind of a chart of concordance.

23             MR. IVETIC:  There is that.  That's why I asked for Your Honour's

24     guidance as to whether we need to do another one as an exhibit or whether

25     we can rely on what's been filed with the 92 ter.  I apologise for that.


Page 25338

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I think we can rely on what has been filed for the

 2     92 ter.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  Okay.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Especially since --

 5             MR. IVETIC:  In --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  -- we have now paid specific attention to where to

 7     find it.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  Okay.  Thank you then, Your Honour.  In that case I

 9     would also tender 65 ter numbers 1D --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.

11             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I just take the time to -- okay.

13             Yes, please proceed.

14             MR. IVETIC:  65 ter numbers 1D04122.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That is the --

16             MR. IVETIC:  The document we just looked at.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just have a look.  Yes, the one signed by

18     Simovic.

19             No objections, Ms. Bibles.

20             Perhaps we go through the --

21             MR. IVETIC:  The list.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  -- the list and see whether there are any

23     objections.  And if not.

24             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

25             The next one would be 1D03108.


Page 25339

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear no objections.

 2             Next one.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  1D00176.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of no objections.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  That would be the only three that need to be

 6     admitted.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  The other two have already been admitted.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, 1D040122 would receive number.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D623, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

12             1D03108 would receive?

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D624, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

15             1D00176 would receive number.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D625.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

18             We are at a point of having a break.

19             Witness --

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [via videolink] Yes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  -- we'll take a break of 20 minutes.  We'd like to

22     see you back after 20 minutes when cross-examination will be conducted by

23     Ms. Bibles.

24             We resume at 10 minutes to 11.00.

25                           [The witness stands down via videolink]


Page 25340

 1                           --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

 2                           --- On resuming at 10.53 a.m.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we just establish whether the videolink is

 4     still functional?

 5                           [Witness takes the stand via videolink]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, I don't hear Madam Registrar at the far end and

 7     I see an indication on my screen that the microphone is switched off.

 8     But it's now on again.

 9             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink]  Your Honours, I hereby confirm

10     that we can hear you and we can see you.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we can proceed.

12             Mr. Gagovic, you'll now be cross-examined by Ms. Bibles.

13     Ms. Bibles is counsel for the Prosecution.

14             Ms. Bibles, you may proceed.

15             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you, Your Honour.

16                           Cross-examination by Ms. Bibles:

17        Q.   Good morning, sir.

18        A.   Good morning.

19        Q.   Sir, from your statement, we understand that your role as acting

20     commander for the JNA 4th Corps ended on 1 June 1992.  Did you physically

21     leave Sarajevo after that date?

22        A.   Yes, I was not an acting commander but representing the

23     commander.  So that's a little bit more of a milder function.  But, yes,

24     after that I did leave.

25        Q.   Thank you for the clarification.  Is it true that you retired


Page 25341

 1     shortly after this time-period?

 2        A.   Yes.  I was placed on the retirement list already in April

 3     because I met all the conditions.  But since there was a change,

 4     practically the JNA ceased to exist, then once I came to Sarajevo I went

 5     to visit my family, and then on the 6th of June I submitted my request

 6     for retirement.  I was --

 7        Q.   Thank you, sir.

 8        A.   -- approved a leave of three months but I had left before my

 9     retirement was due.

10             You're welcome.

11        Q.   Sir, I'd like to direct your attention to the 10th and 11th of

12     May 1992.  You were at Lukavica on that date?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   During these dates, did General Mladic come to Lukavica to tell

15     you and others that he had assumed the duties of the commander of the

16     2nd Military District?

17        A.   Yes, General Mladic came to Lukavica on the 10th of May with

18     General Kukanjac who was the commander of the 2nd Military District

19     before him, and they said that there would be a switch, and they said

20     that Mladic was appointed acting commander of the 2nd Military District.

21        Q.   And, sir, I believe you previously testified that General Mladic

22     went from unit to unit to get to know people under his command.  My

23     question for you is whether General, is it Baros, B-a-r-o-s, was included

24     in that list that he communicated with during that time period?

25        A.   General Baros did not actually belong to the 2nd Military


Page 25342

 1     District command.  He was the director of the training centre that was

 2     directly subordinated to the infantry of the General Staff.  However,

 3     since he was in the area of responsibility of the 2nd Military District

 4     of the JNA and the barracks were blocked, then General Mladic was

 5     contacting him.  I was also in touch with him as a representative of the

 6     corps commander, as well as certain organs of the UNPROFOR and the

 7     European community.

 8        Q.   And, sir, was General Baros available over the telephone and

 9     radio?

10        A.   General Baros did not have telephone.  He communicated via radio.

11             MS. BIBLES:  If we could have P2728, which is an 11 May 1992

12     intercept, the transcripts brought to our screen, please.

13        Q.   Sir, you're aware from previous testimony that some conversations

14     of yours were intercepted including one on the 11th of May 1992 between

15     yourself, General Mladic, and General Baros.  Is that -- does that

16     accurately depict your knowledge about this conversation?

17        A.   Yes, I did have conversations with General Baros.  Practically, I

18     was his main link with the world outside of the barracks because he

19     didn't have any other means to communicate other than via radio, and then

20     I would passes on information by telephone because I was the only one who

21     had the telephone number.  So I was his link with the command and the

22     barracks.  Others didn't have telephones, so you will get the impression

23     that everything was actually being done over that one telephone that

24     happened to be in my office.

25        Q.   And, sir, that explains why there are a number of intercepted


Page 25343

 1     communications with your voice on them?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Sir --

 4             MS. BIBLES:  And if we could turn now to page 3 in both

 5     languages.  And I'd like to focus about a third of the way down in

 6     English.  I think it's close to that in the B/C/S.

 7        Q.   Sir, during this conversation, General Mladic reassures

 8     General Baros in several ways.  One is here where he points out that:

 9             "All right.  You don't have to hurry.  You have time.  You have

10     food down there.  You have water, ammunition.  Don't worry about

11     anything."

12             Sir, based on your knowledge, was it true that the soldiers there

13     did have food, water, and ammunition so that they could hold out for some

14     time?

15        A.   The Marsal Tito barracks did not have soldiers but cadets of the

16     military high school.  These were practically kids of 14, 15, 16, 17

17     years of age.  They were minors and there was a group in the final years

18     of the military academy.

19        Q.   Sir --

20        A.   There were just guards who were actually soldiers --

21        Q.   Sir --

22        A.   -- in the barracks.  Of course, food was provided through

23     UNPROFOR.  UNPROFOR made it possible for us to receive food supplies

24     because until the 10th or the 11th of May, I was the logistics deputy or

25     assistant.  So through UNPROFOR and the team of the General Staff that


Page 25344

 1     was conducting negotiations with the government and the presidency of

 2     Bosnia-Herzegovina about the blockade and the units leaving the barracks,

 3     especially the cadets.  So at --

 4        Q.   Sir --

 5        A.   -- no point in time were we left without water --

 6        Q.   Sir --

 7        A.   -- without food --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, it's now three times that Ms. Bibles tried

 9     to intervene, perhaps because you are moving away from the question.

10     Could you please listen.  Perhaps you may not have heard it because you

11     are listening to the interpretation.  Could you carefully listen now to

12     the next question by Ms. Bibles.

13             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you, Your Honour.  And actually I'll move --

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [via videolink] Yes.

15             MS. BIBLES:  If we could actually now go to page 2 in the B/C/S.

16     And in the English we'll start at the bottom of page 1 and then turn to

17     page 2.

18        Q.   Sir, in this part of the conversation General Mladic says:

19             "The entire town has been sealed off and the entire Muslim

20     population.  They can't touch you.  I will put it to them today in no

21     uncertain terms because if they dare touch a single hair on the head of

22     any of our members or on the head of any member of our soldiers' families

23     or anyone else who will not submit to them ..." --

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can we --

25             MS. BIBLES:  Oh, I'm sorry.


Page 25345

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can we move to the next page in the English,

 2     please.

 3             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Now we have it.

 5             MS. BIBLES:  And I'll pick up with:

 6        Q.   "... or anyone else who will not submit to them, then that will

 7     be the end of them."

 8             Sir, in proximity in time with this phone call, did Mladic tell

 9     you what he intended for Sarajevo with this threat?

10        A.   As for this conversation and all the other conversations after

11     the telephone or the microphone would be handed over, I did not listen or

12     listen into General Mladic's conversations that he had with General Baros

13     or anyone else.

14             When he came here on the 10th of May, General Mladic came to, as

15     he said when he was acquainted with the situation in Sarajevo and

16     broader, that he together with the presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina and

17     the president or the presidency of the Serbian republic, as it was called

18     at the time, would resolve all problems peacefully.  And I can tell you

19     that --

20        Q.   Sir -- oh, I'm sorry.

21        A.   -- I did listen to that conversation from my office.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Please, Ms. Bibles.

23             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you.

24        Q.   Sir, I'd like now show you a document that reflects some of the

25     negotiations involving the barracks.


Page 25346

 1             MS. BIBLES:  If we could go to P321.  We'll be looking for page 8

 2     in both languages.  And I would direct attention to number 4.

 3        Q.   Sir, as this comes up, I can tell you that we're looking at a

 4     20 May 1992 UNPROFOR report of a meeting which included General Mladic.

 5             MS. BIBLES:  And I see the original is a little weak.

 6        Q.   I'll just say that General Mladic is described in this meeting

 7     that if a peaceful solution couldn't be found to the barracks --

 8             MS. BIBLES:  Whoops.  Oh, I'm sorry, it's the English that's

 9     week.

10        Q.   That if a peaceful solution couldn't be found to the barracks --

11             MS. BIBLES:  There we go.

12        Q.   -- that he would use other methods and destroy half the city.

13             Sir, we've now considered evidence of what General Mladic

14     promised General Baros in terms of retaliation.  And now we see a threat

15     in a meeting with UNPROFOR.  Isn't it true that you had the assets, I

16     believe you called them, the heavy artillery, to do exactly as

17     General Mladic had threatened on the 20th of May?

18        A.   I was not aware of that threat of Mladic's until now.  I didn't

19     attend the negotiations because the General Staff team was there that

20     represented the Yugoslav Peoples' Army and that conducted the

21     negotiations.  Sometimes the commander of the military district was

22     present as well and that was General Mladic at the time.  He did not have

23     enough assets, not even to destroy one single building never mind half of

24     Sarajevo.  However, he had a tendency to make threats with an empty

25     rifle, as the saying goes.


Page 25347

 1        Q.   Sir --

 2        A.   And an empty rifle presents a threat to both the person that is

 3     being threatened and the person who is holding that rifle.

 4        Q.   All right, sir.  I would now like to direct --

 5             MS. BIBLES:  Actually, Your Honour, at this point a Rule 90(E)

 6     caution may be appropriate.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I don't know what your question will be, but

 8     if you consider --

 9             MS. BIBLES:  I might.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  -- it to be appropriate, then I'll deal with it.

11             But before we do so, Witness, did I understand you well that you

12     said that General Mladic at the time did not have the assets to even

13     destroy one building, is that -- one single building?  Is that your

14     testimony?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [via videolink] Yes.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

17             Then at the request of Ms. Bibles, Mr. Gagovic, I read the

18     following Rule to you:

19             "A witness may object to making any statement which might tend to

20     incriminate the witness.  The Chamber may, however, compel the witness to

21     answer the question.  Testimony compelled in this way shall not be used

22     as evidence in a subsequent prosecution against the witness for any

23     offence other than false testimony."

24             I've read this Rule to you.  It means that if a truthful answer

25     to any of the upcoming questions of Ms. Bibles would be -- would tend to


Page 25348

 1     incriminate yourself, that you would then be in a position to address me

 2     and to ask whether you are under an obligation to answer that question.

 3     You may even say, "I don't want to answer that question because a

 4     truthful answer would tend to incriminate myself," and then the Chamber

 5     will give a ruling on that.  Is that clear to you?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [via videolink] Yes, it's clear.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Then please proceed, Ms. Bibles.

 8             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you.  If we could go to 65 ter 31232, please.

 9        Q.   And, sir, this is a communication between you and an individual

10     whose last name is Vukota, V-u-k-o-t-a, from 16 May 1992.  And, sir,

11     while this is coming up, I'll ask whether the name Vukota was a JNA

12     lieutenant who stayed in Bosnia after the JNA -- as the JNA departed?

13        A.   Not Vukota.  Vukovic is a PhD holder and a colonel of the

14     Yugoslav Peoples' Army.  He taught at the air force military academy in

15     Rajlovac.  I think he taught psychological or philosophy.  I'm not sure.

16     But it's one of those two subjects.

17        Q.   Thank you.  So would the --

18        A.   So --

19        Q.   Would the name --

20        A.   -- he came from the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  He hailed

21     from there and territorially he came from there.

22        Q.   With -- by May -- or 16th of May 1992, do you know where he was

23     located?

24        A.   On the 16th of May 1992, he was in Rajlovac.  His family was

25     there.  He was with the territorial unit -- actually, it was still not


Page 25349

 1     the Army of Republika Srpska but still the Territorial Defence unit in

 2     Rajlovac.  They were securing the Rajlovac area.  And I think it was

 3     below the slopes of the Hum, above Pofalici, towards Rajlovac.

 4        Q.   And, sir, in this conversation you're reported as -- or he --

 5     excuse me.  In response to your question as to whether he's resisting, he

 6     tells you that he is:

 7             "With all my strength I'm striking, but I've got no wheat."

 8             You respond with:

 9             "There is wheat, just tell me where I should cover you from."

10             He responds with:

11             "Strike with all your strength on those and you won't be wrong."

12             And then there appears to be a discussion following this about

13     locations.  First in the context of this conversation, what did you mean

14     by "wheat"?

15        A.   Most probably it was about -- it referred to ammunition, rifle,

16     machine-gun ammunition and so on.  The conversation was conducted on the

17     16th of May when Muslim units from the Sarajevo area launched an attack

18     on Rajlovac which had a Serb majority population.  The Rajlovac

19     Territorial Defence put up a resistance to the attacking forces.  And

20     then when I was informed about it, because that happened in my area of

21     responsibility since I was representing the commander.  So when I was

22     informed about the attack, I asked whether they were putting up

23     resistance to the attack and he said yes, but they didn't have enough

24     resistance.  And I said, you can't have a shortage of ammunition.  You

25     must have some.  But you also have our support, because the attack was


Page 25350

 1     carried out during a signed cease-fire, which was signed on the 14th of

 2     May, if I'm not mistaken, between the Serb republic leadership, the

 3     Muslims, UNPROFOR, and representatives of the JNA general command.

 4        Q.   Sir, I'd -- I --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I just first verify the following.

 6             Witness, you said you know someone by the name of Vukovic, not

 7     Vukota.  Now in --

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [via videolink] His last name was

 9     Vukovic and his first name was Vukota.  Dr. Vukota Vukovic, colonel.  He

10     is the person that I spoke with.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  That answers all my questions in this respect.

12             Please proceed.

13             MS. BIBLES:

14        Q.   Sir, in -- and just by way of background I'll let you know that

15     the Trial Chamber has heard evidence that there was intense action around

16     Sarajevo, including shelling, around the 14th of May, 1992.

17             MS. BIBLES:  And, Your Honours, that would be, say,

18     Witness Wilson and P320 at paragraph 40.

19        Q.   But, sir, I want to move on.  If we could go to the last page of

20     this document, which reflects a second phone call between the two of you.

21     You've been asked for more assistance in the second phone call.  You

22     obtain, it appears, the location details.  And then you ask:

23             "Has it so far been okay what was sent?"

24             The answer is:

25             "Great.  Please do the elevation 695," is it Velesici butts, and


Page 25351

 1     that's my confusion about what the translation may be for this location,

 2     but going back to the quote:

 3             "In that part in the very populated area of residence, that

 4     should be stricken as heavy as possible, and this part above the creamery

 5     and further as well."

 6             Sir, the simple first question is whether you provided fire after

 7     this at elevation 695?

 8        A.   Artillery fire was of the barrage type and the firing was

 9     executed in agreement with the other side between the attackers and the

10     defenders in order to prevent the attackers from breaking through and to

11     get them to return to their positions.  However, that area is not

12     populated.  There were no civilians there and there was nothing else

13     there other than weaponry of the two warring parties.

14        Q.   Sir, is -- sir --

15        A.   I don't know the size of the forces but it was probably a unit

16     that was working in close co-ordination with the units in Rajlovac.

17             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, at this time I'll tender 31232.

18             MR. IVETIC:  No objection.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar -- Mr. Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P6724, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Is admitted into evidence.

22             MS. BIBLES:

23        Q.   Sir, next --

24             MS. BIBLES:  I'd ask that P2729 be brought to our screens.

25        Q.   And, sir, I'm directing your attention now, as this comes up, to


Page 25352

 1     a 12 May 1992 phone call from an individual named - is it Popadic? - from

 2     Ilidza?  Do you know who that is?

 3        A.   Yes, he was the commander of the Ilidza Territorial Defence.

 4        Q.   If you'll bear with us just a moment while we have the English

 5     translation placed on the screen.

 6             All right.  Sir, towards the bottom of the page on the English

 7     translation, we see a request for targets that should be fired.  It

 8     appears to be a request, again, for assistance.  And the question is

 9     whether these targets may be too far away from you, and you ask where the

10     targets are.

11             MS. BIBLES:  If we could go to the next page.

12        Q.   And, sir, do you see the discussion of the various locations that

13     are requested?  Behind the Coca-Cola.

14        A.   Yes, I see that.  This was a group that was more of a

15     paramilitary Muslim group than a military group, and they had two mortars

16     that were mounted on motor vehicles.  They were constantly moving then

17     they would stop in a certain place, and then they would fire mortar

18     shells at the Ilidza neighbourhood.  We were asked, as it was previously

19     agreed, to neutralise the fire and any attempts at such attacks on the

20     civilians population.

21        Q.   And did you respond to this request?

22        A.   I was obliged to respond, but we did not because they left those

23     positions.  Once they fired a couple of projectiles on Ilidza, then they

24     moved.  They went into the city.

25        Q.   Thank you.  So --


Page 25353

 1             MS. BIBLES:  And we can -- well, I didn't have any further

 2     questions about this document, but I'll stop and see whether the Chamber

 3     has any.  No.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  We have no questions.

 5             MS. BIBLES:  Okay, thank you.

 6        Q.   Thank you, sir.  And I'd now like to shift direction and ask a

 7     couple of questions in the general area of paragraph 36 of your statement

 8     where you discuss your relationship with other entities.  First, would

 9     you agree that in April and May of 1992 you were in constant

10     communication with the leadership of the Republika Srpska?

11        A.   I was not in communication in April and on the 10th of May

12     because it was not my role to maintain communications with any

13     institution.  In May, I was appointed representatives of the command of

14     the 4th Corps for talks and negotiations with the opposing side with the

15     leadership of the Serbian republic and the municipalities -- actually,

16     crisis staffs, not municipalities, that had been formed in certain

17     municipalities.  Communications were maintained with those crisis staffs

18     and then also with representatives of the Muslim Bosnian army and

19     representatives of the Serbian side of the Territorial Defence of

20     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  I also conducted negotiations with Fikret Abdic, who

21     was appointed by the Bosnia and Herzegovina presidency to be a liaison

22     with the Yugoslav Peoples' Army.

23        Q.   Sir, do you recall testifying in Dragomir Milosevic?

24        A.   Yes, I did testify.

25        Q.   Didn't you testify that you were in constant communication with


Page 25354

 1     the leadership of the Republika Srpska?

 2        A.   I definitely did not say that.  I was not in constant

 3     communication with them.  I could not have been.  I assumed command on

 4     the 11th of May.  Before that, there was another corps commander.  I was

 5     simply a liaison with the presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina and it went

 6     through Fikret Abdic.

 7        Q.   Perhaps I've confused the dates.  After the 10th of May, were

 8     you, and I'll change the term, were you in communication with the

 9     leadership of the Republika Srpska?

10        A.   Following the 10th of May, the only contact I had with the

11     leadership of the Serbian republic took place when the president of RS,

12     Dr. Radovan Karadzic, came to Lukavica.  He offered that I assume the

13     position of commander once the Sarajevo Romanija Corps was established.

14     I thanked him for the offer.

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We did not hear the end of

16     the answer.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [via videolink] The Muslim side

18     also made the same offer.  They offered that I command the

19     Bosnia-Herzegovina TO.  I thanked them as well and I refused the offer.

20     I told them I was a national of the FRY who was to return to his state.

21     I told them that the problems they had were their own and that they

22     should deal with them.

23             MS. BIBLES:

24        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Sir, do you recall being asked about your

25     communications with the leadership of Republika Srpska when you testified


Page 25355

 1     in the Dragomir Milosevic trial?

 2        A.   I don't off the cuff, but do remind me --

 3        Q.   Sir --

 4        A.   -- and then I might confirm or deny.

 5        Q.   And the reference would be at transcript 8706.

 6                  "Q.  By 'leadership of Republika Srpska' who in particular

 7     are you referring to, sir?

 8                  "A.  Well, specifically, we were in communication with the

 9     President of Republika Srpska, Radovan Karadzic at the time."

10             Does that refresh your recollection about this area testimony?

11             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I believe it's been a standing

12     procedure in this courtroom to have the transcript on the screen when

13     it's being quoted.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bibles.

15             MS. BIBLES:  And, I'm sorry, Your Honour, I did not get this

16     preloaded.  I'll withdraw the question at this point, Your Honour.

17        Q.   Sir --

18        A.   This confirms what I stated but not the way my statement was

19     interpreted.  There was a communication link by phone like the one we are

20     sharing now.  It doesn't mean that we were in contact or that we made

21     agreements as to what to do.  We only used it in cases when their forces

22     were engaging the JNA so as to exert influence.  It wasn't --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [via videolink] -- that there were

25     convictions taking place but there was a phone line.


Page 25356

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bibles has withdrawn the question.  Nevertheless

 2     the witness has started to answer it.

 3             I'm looking to you, Mr. Ivetic, what to do under the present

 4     circumstances?  We can strike the answer because the question has been

 5     withdrawn.  We also could receive the evidence if you consider it.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  Well, I think -- I think the witness did have his

 7     recollection refreshed, so in that sense it's okay.  But in terms of

 8     context, if there are going to be additional questions relied on from

 9     this transcript, we would like to have the same privileges that were

10     enjoyed by the Prosecution, that is, to have the documents on the screen

11     so that we can view the context and see if there are any questions that

12     arise from the direct.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  So for the testimony from the witness until

14     now, you say that although the question has been withdrawn, you do not

15     insist on striking the answer.  The testimony stands.

16             If Ms. Bibles --

17             MS. BIBLES:  That's fine, Your Honour.  And I apologise --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  And then for any future question in this context,

19     you should show the relevant portion of the transcript.

20             Please proceed.

21             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, we could put the relevant portion of

22     the transcript on the screen if --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Then if you have any further questions --

24             MS. BIBLES:  I do.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  -- then please do as instructed.


Page 25357

 1             MS. BIBLES:  I do.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I, before you continue, seek one

 3     clarification.

 4             Mr. Gagovic, some minutes ago you referred to Mr. Karadzic who

 5     came to Lukavica and offered you to assume the position of commander once

 6     the Sarajevo Romanija Corps was established.  You thanked him for this

 7     offer, as you said, and what was the result of all of that?  Did you

 8     accept it or not?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [via videolink] I did not accept.

10     I think I clarified that.  I'm not sure you understood.  I thanked him

11     for the offer and I suggested to him that he should pick another officer

12     who was a BH national.  I told him I was an FRY national.  And following

13     the lifting of the blockade of the barracks, my intention was to go back

14     to the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I -- the reason why I asked you was that when you

16     gave your answer earlier, the interpreters didn't catch the end of your

17     answer.  But now you were referring to Mr. Karadzic's offer or the offer

18     of the Muslim side?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [via videolink] Both sides made an

20     offer.  One offer was made by President Karadzic and the other by the

21     Muslim side.  They offered that I act as the TO BH commander.

22     Colonel Hasan Efendic was at that position at the time.  I thanked them

23     as well and refused.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Okay.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [via videolink] Giving the same


Page 25358

 1     explanation.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [via videolink] I suggested that

 4     they should talk to the Serbian republic in order to reach a common

 5     understanding.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much for that clarification.

 7             MS. BIBLES:

 8        Q.   Sir, in paragraph 36 --

 9        A.   You're welcome.

10        Q.   -- you indicate that you co-operated with various legal

11     representatives including the Serbian MUP.

12             MS. BIBLES:  I'd like to go to 65 ter 31231.

13        Q.   And, sir, this is an intercept of a phone call on the 14th of

14     May, 1992, between yourself and Mico Stanisic.  This is a very short

15     intercept.

16             MS. BIBLES:  And I would ask that we play this.  I recognise that

17     we may have to play it twice.

18                           [Audiotape played]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bibles, has a transcript been provided to the

20     booth?

21             MS. BIBLES:  Yes, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then you play it again so that we can receive

23     translation.

24                           [Audiotape played]

25             THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] MG:  Yes.


Page 25359

 1             "NN:  Hello.

 2             "MG:  Yes.

 3             "NN:  Good afternoon.

 4             "MG:  Good afternoon.

 5             "NN:  Communications centre of the Serbian ministry.

 6             "MG:  What can I do for you, this is Colonel Gagovic.

 7             "NN:  Just a second, the Minister wants to talk to you.

 8             "MS:  Hello.

 9             "MG:  Yes.

10             "MS:  Good afternoon.

11             "MG:  Good afternoon.

12             "MS:  This is Mico Stanisic.

13             "MG:  What can I do for you?

14             "MS:  Are you okay?

15             "MG:  Well, great.

16             "MS:  What's up at your place?

17             "MG:  Well, we are waging the war.

18             "MS:  Are you?

19             "MG:  Well, yes.

20             "MS:  Due to the confidentiality of the phone number I am going

21     to -- I just wanted to tell you that I am here in Vrace.

22             "MG:  Yes.

23             "MS:  So you can call me if you need anything.

24             "MG:  All right.  I have the phone number for Karlo.

25             "MS:  Great.


Page 25360

 1             "MG:  All right.

 2             "MS:  And this is Miler.

 3             "MG:  All right.

 4             "MS:  Write it down.

 5             "MG:  Of course.

 6             "MS:  That's a deal.

 7             "MG:  Cheers.

 8             "MS:  Have a nice day."

 9             MS. BIBLES:

10        Q.   Sir, first, do you recognise your voice in that phone call?

11        A.   I suppose it's mine although I'm not 100 per cent certain.  The

12     tone of voice seems slightly off but it is possible that the conversation

13     took place.  Minister Stanisic probably called me once he reached the

14     area of responsibility of the 4th Corps command.

15        Q.   Sir, do you recognise Mico Stanisic's voice in this phone call?

16        A.   No.  I didn't speak to him often.  I wouldn't be able to

17     recognise his voice.  Given the tone of the conversation and its

18     seriousness, I suppose it could be him.

19        Q.   Sir, he gives what appears to be a code-name, which is Miler.  Is

20     that the code-name that he would have used?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   Do you --

23        A.   Do you mean if I used it as a pseudonym?  No, no.  I always

24     introduced myself by my first, last name, as well as by rank no matter

25     who I talked to.


Page 25361

 1        Q.   Can you tell us who Karlo is?

 2        A.   If I'm not mistaken, it was the police commander in Novo

 3     Sarajevo.  Since there was some miscommunication in terms of the

 4     competence of JNA members and that of the police of the Serbian republic,

 5     we were in contact whenever there was a dispute, especially if it

 6     referred to traffic and other priorities.

 7        Q.   Sir, in this conversation you indicate, I believe:

 8             "Well, we are waging the war."

 9             And this is the 14th of May 1992.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness please wait for the question.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [via videolink] [Overlapping

12     speakers].

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness first wait for the question to be

14     put to him.

15             MS. BIBLES:

16        Q.   Sir, are you talking about the kind of activity that we've

17     discussed on the 14th of May in 1992?

18        A.   No.  It was simply the term that was under such wartime

19     circumstances.  We were waging a war and we were in a position to defend

20     ourselves.  It wasn't in the context of any further operations and so on

21     and so forth.

22        Q.   Sir, I do have a question.  Isn't it true that when it came to

23     combat, periods of combat, the Serbian MUP was subordinated to your

24     command?

25        A.   No, the Serbian MUP was never under my command unless something


Page 25362

 1     had to be dealt with within the area of responsibility which was our

 2     competence.  If they became involved, we intervened.

 3             MS. BIBLES:  And, Your Honour, I would tender 31231.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I would, however, have a few additional

 5     questions.

 6             Witness, you were asked about the words spoken:  "We are waging

 7     the war."  You said, well, we were just in a war.  That's all.  Nothing

 8     special.  Now, the question was:  "What's up at your place?"  Then

 9     apparently you said, "Well, we are waging the war."

10             And is there any use on the 14th of May to tell your interlocutor

11     that the war was ongoing?  I mean, wasn't that common knowledge not worth

12     of any question apart from if you wanted to know what exactly happened at

13     the location referred to?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [via videolink] He didn't know

15     anything.  He just came to Vrace.  It was a part of Sarajevo that was not

16     engaged.  It was not controlled.  The police was billeted in the former

17     police high school of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  When he arrived from Pale, he

18     called.  It was just a chitchat so to say, well, we're waging the war.

19     By that time, we were engaged in intensive talks with the presidency and

20     the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina in order to have the JNA barracks

21     and members deblocked.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

23             Mr. Ivetic is on his feet.

24             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I have been directed to the B/C/S

25     original for this intercept which does not correspond entirely to the "We


Page 25363

 1     are waging a war."  In B/C/S is [Interpretation] "While the war is being

 2     waged, sort of."

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, thank you, Mr. Ivetic, for taking us to the

 4     B/C/S original.

 5             Ms. Bibles, you tendered 31231.

 6             Mr. Registrar, approximate the number would be.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P6725, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

 9             MS. BIBLES:  And finally, if we could go to P3855 and we'll be

10     looking at paragraph 7 which I believe is on page 3 in the English and

11     page 2 in the B/C/S.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  While we're waiting for that to be brought to our

13     screens, Ms. Bibles, you earlier referred in relation to I think the

14     testimony of Mr. Wilson to P320, paragraph 40, referring to the 14th of

15     May.  I see a reference to the 14th of May in paragraph 41, not --

16             MS. BIBLES:  Oh.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  -- however in paragraph 40.  Could you please verify

18     whether --

19             MS. BIBLES:  I will, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please do so.

21             And meanwhile, proceed.

22             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you.

23        Q.   Sir, on the 15th of May 1992, Mico Stanisic issued an order for

24     the Serbian MUP.

25             MS. BIBLES:  And that's the document which is hopefully coming


Page 25364

 1     up.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.

 3                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 4             MS. BIBLES:

 5        Q.   Sir, I -- it -- I just realised that that document may not be in

 6     Belgrade.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  And that's confirmed from Belgrade.

 8             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

10             MS. BIBLES:  I'm sorry about that.

11        Q.   Sir, in this document Minister Stanisic orders that the Serbian

12     MUP be subordinated:

13             "While participating in combat operations, the units of the

14     ministry shall be subordinated to the command of the armed forces.

15     However, the ministry units shall be under the direct command of certain

16     ministry officials."

17             Sir, I put it to you that, in fact, rather than having a

18     co-operative relationship with the Serbian MUP, when it came to combat

19     the Serbian MUP in fact was subordinated to your command?

20             MR. IVETIC:  I would object.  It misstates the document.  The

21     document does not talk about combat.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bibles, there is -- could you please quote,

23     then, from the document, exactly the portion --

24             MS. BIBLES:  Certainly, Your Honour.  The whole --

25             MR. IVETIC:  The whole of item number 7 should be read to have


Page 25365

 1     the context.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  And could we nevertheless have it on our screens so

 3     that we could follow the reading even the if the witness is unable to

 4     follow the document.

 5             MS. BIBLES:

 6        Q.   And, sir, I'll read this slowly.

 7             "The use of the ministry units in co-ordinated action" --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  It's not on our screens yet --

 9             MS. BIBLES:  Oh, sorry.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  So ...

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We don't have it.

12             MS. BIBLES:  It's P3855.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I see a document on my screen now.  Yes.  Apparently

14     if it's paragraph 7, it's in its entirety in B/C/S on the screen.

15     However, for the English we should move to the next page after two lines.

16             Could you please restart reading.

17             MS. BIBLES:  Certainly.  And, Your Honour, you were quite right

18     with respect to Witness Wilson's statement, it was paragraphs 41 through

19     43 which address the 14th of May shelling.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

21             MS. BIBLES:  Now --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

23             MS. BIBLES:

24        Q.   "The use of the Ministry units in co-ordinated action with the

25     armed forces of the Serbian Republic of BH may be ordered by the minister


Page 25366

 1     of interior, commander of the police detachment --"

 2             MS. BIBLES:  Oh, I'm sorry.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we move to the next page.  Yes, there we are.

 4             MS. BIBLES:

 5        Q.   "... of the ministry for the Sarajevo CSB and the chief of the

 6     CSB of the ministry (for the territory under his jurisdiction).

 7             "Commander of the police detachment and chiefs of CSB shall

 8     inform the Ministry Staff of any use of the units described in the

 9     preceding paragraph.

10             "While participating in combat operations, the units of the

11     ministry shall be subordinated to the command of the armed forces;

12     however, the ministry units shall be under the direct command of certain

13     Ministry officials."

14             And that's the end of paragraph 7, sir?

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Well, we don't --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  In the English --

17             MS. BIBLES:  That's correct.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  -- there's no number 8.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, number 8 now appears.

20             MS. BIBLES:

21        Q.   Sir, I put it to you that, in fact, in participating --

22             MS. BIBLES:  Unfortunately, I've lost my original question.

23        Q.   That rather than having the co-operative relationship with the

24     Serbian MUP, and I'll add it's described in paragraph 36 of your

25     statement, that when it came to combat, the Serbian MUP in fact was


Page 25367

 1     subordinated to your command.

 2        A.   Was that the question?  The Serbian MUP was not subordinated to

 3     the command in any respect, the command of the 4th Corps that is.  Nor

 4     did the 4th Corps command command MUP.

 5             I do not exclude a possibility of a unit like a platoon or a

 6     company joining the territorial component of the Serbian republic in

 7     co-ordination in case of the JNA being attacked by the other side as it

 8     happened on a number of occasions in that period.  It was the period of

 9     truce where the units should have -- leave Sarajevo from their barracks

10     to go to the FRY.  We can see in this order by Minister Stanisic that he

11     ordered that the Ministry of the Interior shall be in command.  Not even

12     their territorial component.

13             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, I'd note it is break time.  I have less

14     than ten minutes remaining.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm looking at the Defence, whether you'd prefer to

16     have the break to prepare for re-examination or whether you would prefer

17     to take the break now?

18             MR. IVETIC:  We could take the break now, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll take the break now.

20             Witness, we'll take a break of 20 minutes.  We'd like to see you

21     back in -- at 10 minutes past 12.00.  We stand adjourned.

22                           [Witness stands down via videolink]

23                           --- Recess taken at 11.53 a.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 12.13 p.m.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's just verify whether the videolink is still


Page 25368

 1     functioning well.

 2                           [Witness takes the stand via videolink]

 3             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink]  Your Honours, I confirm that we

 4     can see you and we can hear.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 6             Ms. Bibles, please proceed.

 7             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, over the break I've determined there is

 8     no further cross-examination.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I have one matter I would like to raise.

10             Ms. Bibles, you have put to the witness a few questions about

11     telephone conversations about what happened on the 14th of May,

12     discussions about targets.  The witness explained that he didn't

13     follow-up the orders, et cetera.  Now, does that contradict the

14     Prosecution's case in that respect?  Because then it would be fair to put

15     it to the witness.  And it's even required by the Rules.

16             MS. BIBLES:  Absolutely, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, would you please --

18             MS. BIBLES:  There won't be any --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  -- do that exercise so that the witness has an

20     opportunity to comment on what, in the Prosecution's view, happened.

21             MS. BIBLES:

22        Q.   Sir, you've heard the Judge's discussion and you've heard me put

23     several questions to you about targeting different locations that you

24     were asked to -- to target by at least two different individuals in

25     intercepts we've heard, and you've heard me explain that the Trial


Page 25369

 1     Chamber has heard evidence that on the 14th of May there was shelling in

 2     Sarajevo.  You have denied all of that.  And so I would put it to you

 3     that your testimony has not been accurate in that regard.  What would you

 4     have to say about that?

 5        A.   On the 14th of May Sarajevo was not shelled.  This is a

 6     completely different concept.  There was fire at the periphery of the

 7     elevation point between Rajlovac and Sarajevo in order to prevent the

 8     attack of Muslim forces on the Rajlovac neighbourhood, because the day

 9     before the Muslim forces carried out a massacre of the Serb population in

10     the area of Sarajevo called Pofalici.  So in order to prevent something

11     like that from happening again, the JNA fired and was obliged to prevent

12     any massacres on any of the population, and that is different from the

13     concept of shelling.  Please, there was no shelling.

14             I have been living in Sarajevo -- Novo Sarajevo for 27 years, so

15     I have been the recipient of awards from the city of Sarajevo.  I am a

16     citizen of Sarajevo.  So my task was, as the corps commander, to bring

17     out members of the Yugoslav Peoples' Army without any casualties or

18     losses.  These were people who had been blocked in the barracks inside

19     Sarajevo, and I was supposed to protect those who were threatened,

20     regardless of whether they were Serbs or Muslims, as much as I was able

21     to.

22             This was not my war.  This was the war of the people of Bosnia

23     and Herzegovina.  I said that to the presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina

24     as well.  Personally to the President Alija Izetbegovic on the 2nd of

25     May.  And I proposed that they resolve that in a different way, but that


Page 25370

 1     was up to them.  That was not up to me.

 2             JNA units were engaged only in areas where they were defending

 3     themselves.  If they were defending a barracks, they were defending a

 4     barracks.  If they were defending their positions outside of the

 5     barracks, they would be defended.  It did not attack anyone anywhere.

 6        Q.   Sir, in the course of defending, and I believe you -- in your

 7     answer, you indicated that the JNA fired, isn't it true that the JNA used

 8     heavy artillery?

 9        A.   Well, yes, it's called heavy artillery.  Multi-calibre artillery.

10     It's 120-millimetres.  It does not even belong in the category of

11     artillery.  It's treated as infantry weaponry, which is more precise at

12     shorter ranges.  Multi-calibre artillery of the corps was located behind,

13     in a village behind Pale called Sokolac, and that artillery did not fire

14     and was not used.  Only the artillery that was located in the Lukavica

15     area was used.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps one follow-up question for the witness.

17             The Prosecution has presented evidence which includes that firing

18     on or around the 14th of May was estimated to include 5- to 10.000 rounds

19     of artillery of having been fired onto the city on that day.  Do you have

20     any comment on that evidence about the numbers of rounds fired?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [via videolink] That's just as I

22     said.  It's a distorted picture about the number of artillery weapons.

23     So we have another distorted picture about the number of projectiles

24     fired.

25             Usually one burst of fire is fired from ten weapons, and that


Page 25371

 1     would be ten projectiles in an area of 500 metres in front of the

 2     attacking forces in order to warn them not to proceed, otherwise they

 3     would suffer casualties.  And that is the role of the JNA artillery.

 4     That is what they did, and this was not done in the city of Sarajevo.

 5     This would be something completely different.

 6             The fire was executed in an unpopulated area, where the actual

 7     town garbage dump is located.  General MacKenzie can testify to this.  I

 8     was in touch with him and agreed with him on certain things as well as

 9     Fikret Abdic who was the representative of the presidency of Bosnia and

10     Herzegovina.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I have one other question for you.  You were

12     asked to comment on firing at elevation 695.  You said:

13             "Artillery fire was of the barrage type, and the firing was

14     executed in agreement with the other side between the attackers and the

15     defenders in order to prevent the attackers from breaking through and to

16     get them to return to their positions."

17             Could you tell us where the -- one second, please -- where the

18     intercept, as far as I could hear, does not refer to any agreement.

19     Could you tell us whether that agreement is recorded somewhere or could

20     you tell us how that agreement was reached?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [via videolink] The agreement was

22     reached between representatives of the Serbian republic, the Muslim

23     representatives, representatives of the JNA from the General Staff, which

24     was there as a negotiating team with the leadership of Bosnia and

25     Herzegovina, and this was in the presence of the UNPROFOR commander.


Page 25372

 1     There was no representative of the European community.  He had already

 2     left Sarajevo.

 3             This was in the building of UNPROFOR where their seat and command

 4     was.  A non-attack agreement was signed and then in the case of attack

 5     there would be fire directed at the side that was attacking.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  So the -- one second, please.  So the agreement was

 7     that if one of the parties would attack, that the other party would

 8     respond to such an attack.  Is that how I have to understand the

 9     agreement?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [via videolink] Precisely.  Of

11     course.  The side that is attacked has to defend themselves.  That is

12     inevitable.  The massacre in Pofalici that occurred the day before played

13     a part in this defensive action, and this is something that

14     General MacKenzie was well aware of.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  If I remember well, in that telephone conversation,

16     you were asked to fire at a certain position without any further

17     explanation why you would have to fire at that position.  Is that well

18     understood?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [via videolink] Yes, you understood

20     me correctly.  It was precisely in order to prevent the attacker from

21     coming to the Rajlovac settlement and again committing a massacre against

22     the Serbian population, which had occurred the day before in Pofalici.  I

23     think that was also a factor.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you agree with me that none of that appears in

25     the telephone conversation where just a request to fire at a certain


Page 25373

 1     position is mentioned?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [via videolink] Well, you know, I

 3     agree with you.  There was just the request in the telephone conversation

 4     for this to be done and thereby this problem is resolved of having the

 5     attacker reach the Rajlovac neighbourhood.  That settled that issue.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 7             Mr. Ivetic, are you ready to?

 8             MR. IVETIC:  I am, Your Honours.

 9                           Re-examination by Mr. Ivetic:

10        Q.   Colonel, I have --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I'm sorry.  Colonel, you will be re-examined by

12     Mr. Ivetic.  Mr. Ivetic is, as I told you before, is a member of the

13     Defence team of Mr. Mladic.

14             Please proceed.

15             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

16        Q.   Colonel, I have just a few questions for you.  First of all,

17     during May 1992, what were the standing orders from your JNA superiors

18     relating to the use of heavy weapons against civilian targets; that is to

19     say, were civilians allowed to be targeted and if so under what

20     circumstances?

21        A.   Sir, it was prohibited in the strictest of terms to use

22     artillery, not only on civilian targets but on targets whereby the

23     civilian population would be jeopardised, because the other side used

24     areas in neighbourhoods to fire at barracks, at JNA units, and

25     Territorial Defence units of Republika Srpska.  And if there was a


Page 25374

 1     response to that fire, then it would be said that the Serb side was

 2     firing at the civilian population.  Use of higher artillery weaponry from

 3     April until late May was exclusively under the authority of the commander

 4     of the military district.  A lower-ranking commander did not have the

 5     right to use such heavy weaponry unless previously approved.

 6        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Now I'd like to turn to a document the

 7     Prosecution used, Exhibit P02728.

 8             And as we wait for that document, I can say that this is the

 9     conversation recorded between Milos Baros, yourself, and General Mladic

10     that you said was in relation to the cadets that were blockaded in the

11     barracks.  If we -- first of all, could you describe for us --

12        A.   [Overlapping speakers].

13        Q.   I'm sorry, go ahead.

14        A.   No, no, go ahead, please.

15        Q.   Could you describe for us what were the conditions that the

16     cadets were facing in the barracks at that time being the 11th of May

17     1992?

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think it's necessary to have the B/C/S and not

19     the English twice on the screen.

20             MR. IVETIC:  I agree.  We should have the same number.  It should

21     be -- yeah, 2728.  It should have a B/C/S component.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We had the B/C/S previously during

23     cross-examination on the screen.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  There we are.

25             MR. IVETIC:  There we go.


Page 25375

 1        Q.   So, sir, again my question is:  Could you describe for us, what

 2     were the conditions that the cadets were facing in the barracks at that

 3     time; being, the 11th of May 1992?

 4        A.   The cadets in the Marsal Tito barracks in Sarajevo were blockaded

 5     on the 2nd and the 3rd of May.  From that day on, they were exposed to

 6     sporadic fire from mortars and they were shelled when they were in the

 7     barracks compound.  Two civilian employees were killed who worked in the

 8     canteen of the Marsal Tito military school.

 9             The units that were firing every day were forcing those cadets,

10     those kids who were blockaded there, to hold on to their weapons and to

11     try to save their lives.  So you can imagine what psychological state

12     they were in when they were exposed to that.  Because of that, we tried

13     to make sure that they weren't hungry or thirsty.  Everything else meant

14     that they were sealed off and exposed to shooting every day.  Their

15     position was a difficult one, both in physical and psychological terms.

16        Q.   And, sir, this document, this conversation that is recorded, at

17     page 3 in both versions identifies that there are approximately 280

18     cadets that are stuck in the facility.  Were there any estimations as to

19     the number of opposing forces that were blockading these 280 cadets?

20        A.   The -- well, you could leave the barracks only from four gates.

21     The gates were guarded by four battalions of the Muslim side, which would

22     make sure the exits were covered by fire.  Any attempt to exit meant that

23     the cadets were exposed to danger.  That's why they were waiting for a

24     peaceful resolution.

25             Unfortunately, that barracks was the last one to be deblocked in


Page 25376

 1     Sarajevo.  On the 5th of June, I had already left Sarajevo by that time.

 2     That was the 5th of June, 1992.  The youth there was not trained for

 3     armed combat.  They were trained to lead the units.  So even though that

 4     was so, they were in such a situation that they were forced to fight for

 5     their -- fight to save their lives.

 6        Q.   Sir, for those that are less militarily trained, the four

 7     battalions of the Muslim forces, what would the numeric strength be of

 8     those combined four battalions?

 9        A.   The four battalions that were blocking were not completely in

10     keeping with the establishment.  Some of them numbered 200 or 400 or 600

11     men.  But in any case, we did not want it to permit any of the cadets to

12     get killed when they were leaving the barracks.  Their lives were the

13     most precious thing that we had, so we wanted to do everything to prevent

14     them from getting killed.  That was one thing.

15             The other thing:  If the unit had tried to break out of the

16     barracks, it would have encountered the next in line Muslim units that

17     were located in Sarajevo.  According to their statements, these units

18     numbered between 50- and 70.000 men.

19        Q.   Sir, in some answers to some prior questions you've identified

20     Fikret Abdic as the BH representative for negotiations.  To your

21     knowledge, did General Mladic have any specific conversations with

22     Fikret Abdic to try and resolve the issue of the barricaded cadets?

23        A.   General Mladic had several talks with Fikret Abdic when he took

24     over as the commander of the 2nd Military District.  One of the talks he

25     conducted by telephone from my office.  I was present for that because


Page 25377

 1     before that I had spoken to Abdic.

 2             General Mladic arrived and then he joined that conversation with

 3     Abdic.  And it was about the following:  He first asked Fikret Abdic,

 4     calling him Babo, I don't know if they knew each other from before or

 5     not.  He said, "Come on, let's settle our problems between ourselves.

 6     The two of us speak the same language.  You are from Kladusa, I am from

 7     Kali Novik.  So let's not allow others who arrive and who speak

 8     differently to be the ones to resolve our problems."

 9             Fikret Abdic replied, "Perhaps it's too late for that, General."

10     And then Mladic said, "It's never too late if the two of us try and if we

11     have the will to resolve this peacefully."

12             Then he asked him to go and visit his mother's house, which the

13     Muslim forces had torched a few days before, and to check whether his

14     mother had burned down in the house.  His brother had a house in Pofalici

15     and that's where his mother lived and that house was set on fire.

16             Mr. Abdic said that I was informed that the artillery units had

17     set it on fire when they were shelling.  And then Mladic said, "Right.

18     They set my house on fire and my house happens to be between two Muslim

19     houses, those are my neighbours, and neither of those houses had burned

20     down.  So look at that, Babo.  You can see what kind of artillery I

21     have."

22        Q.   Thank you, sir.

23             MR. IVETIC:  Now I'd like to call up document P3855.

24        Q.   I apologise again.  This is the document that you do not have

25     with you in Belgrade.  It is the document issued by Mr. Stanisic to the


Page 25378

 1     MUP forces.  And I would like to ask you about the terminology used.  We

 2     saw in paragraph 7 of the same that they were talking about co-ordinated

 3     action.  Could you please explain for us what is co-ordinated action as

 4     opposed to resubordination in JNA military jargon?

 5        A.   Co-ordinated action is if several units are engaged in the

 6     Defence of an area or a barracks, then they co-ordinate the fire amongst

 7     themselves that is directed at the attackers.  According to regulations,

 8     you can only have one command, so then the fire is directed in

 9     co-ordination.

10        Q.   And, sir, could you explain for us what is the difference between

11     that scenario and the classic scenario of resubordination in the military

12     sense?

13        A.   Yes.  When we are talking about resubordination, that means that

14     that unit would be completely subordinated to the command or the specific

15     commander conducting an operation or the defence of an area or a

16     barracks.  When you have co-ordination, then you have co-ordinated fire

17     of units who are not necessarily under one single command.  For example,

18     there was a police station at Vrace from the municipality of Novo

19     Sarajevo.  At the same time, you had a Yugoslav Peoples' Army unit which

20     was guarding the monuments from World War II of executed Serbs and Jews.

21     And then you had a command post of the corps command.

22             And now if an attack occurred on any one of those structures,

23     then fire would be co-ordinated so that there would be co-ordinated

24     firing at the enemy, and it does not necessarily mean that each one of

25     these elements was subordinated to the one and the same command.  I don't


Page 25379

 1     know if I was clear enough.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, you asked about resubordination.  The

 3     witness explained that resubordination would mean that there would be

 4     complete subordination.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  Correct.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, the text of the document clearly talks about

 7     subordination, although apparently in a certain sense limited, that the

 8     command of the unit itself would still be in the hands of certain

 9     ministry officials.

10             MR. IVETIC:  That's correct.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Therefore, the resubordination seems to be a

12     different concept.  At least that's how I understand the testimony, it

13     being that the direct command of certain ministry officials would

14     certainly then govern the internal functioning of that unit but the unit

15     in itself being subordinated, at least I have -- I'm trying to fully

16     understand the document.  But to say this has got nothing to do with

17     subordination is -- sounds a bit odd, where the document itself says:

18     "The units of the ministry shall be subordinated to the command of the

19     armed forces."  The -- it looks as if the witness says that that's not

20     what it is.

21             MR. IVETIC:  And, Your Honours, I would note that the document

22     comes from a police official not from an army official such that their

23     understanding of terminology may be different and that's why I ask for

24     the military understanding of the term in my questions.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, whether that resolves the issue is a --


Page 25380

 1     it seems then that at least the police officials considered themselves to

 2     be subordinated, if it comes from the police.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  Well, they also use the term "co-ordinated action"

 4     --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  -- so I think that they distinguish between

 7     different scenarios.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Let's then --

 9             MR. IVETIC:  I'd just have one other question.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I just -- I just did raise the issue so that you

11     have an opportunity to further elaborate on it if you wish to do so and

12     not to hide from you that the appearance of the word "subordination"

13     seems not to be without relevance for me.

14             Please proceed.

15             MR. IVETIC:

16        Q.   Now, sir --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  If the witness could wait for the next question.

18             Please proceed.

19             MR. IVETIC:

20        Q.   Sir, the document signed by the Police Minister of Interior Mico

21     Stanisic says:

22             "While participating in combat operations the units of the

23     ministry shall be subordinated to the command of the armed forces;

24     however, the ministry units shall be under the direct command of certain

25     ministry officials."


Page 25381

 1             The first question I'd like to ask you:  Did you ever plan any

 2     combat operations at the JNA 4th Corps in May to June 1992 that included

 3     police forces from the Ministry of Internal Affairs?

 4        A.   One small digression to the question or actually to the

 5     minister's order.  He did not state decisively in the order to whom the

 6     police was to be subordinated, but it was to be subordinated to the armed

 7     forces.  I believe that this was done in the period when the

 8     Sarajevo Romanija Corps was being formed.  This is the period from the

 9     14th of May.  There was still six days left before that setting up of the

10     corps was to be completed by establishment.  So in that sense, he

11     maintained the right to command the police but at certain points it was

12     being resubordinated to the armed forces.  It does not say that it was

13     being resubordinated to the command of the JNA 4th Corps.

14        Q.   I understand that, sir.  And the Prosecution insinuated that the

15     police were under your command, so I'm asking you:  Did you ever plan any

16     combat operations at the JNA 4th Corps in May to June 1992 involving

17     police forces?

18        A.   Never.  Not a single operation involved their participation.

19     While I was there, they were not intended for combat operations.  They

20     were there only to regulate the situation in the territory of the Serbian

21     republic; in this specific case, the municipalities of Ilidza and Novo

22     Sarajevo.

23        Q.   Colonel, I thank you on behalf of myself and my client,

24     General Ratko Mladic, for your answers to my questions.  I have no

25     further questions for you.


Page 25382

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bibles, any further questions for the witness

 2     triggered by the re-examination?

 3             MS. BIBLES:  No, Your Honour, thank you.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  And the Chamber has no questions either.

 5             Mr. Gagovic, this concludes your testimony.  I would like to

 6     thank you very much for making yourself available as a witness and for

 7     having answered the questions that were put to you by the parties and by

 8     the Bench, and I wish you a safe return home again.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Thank you, Mr. President.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, this concludes the videolink

11     testimony.

12                           [Witness stands down via videolink]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm looking at the Defence.  Is the Defence ready to

14     call its next witness?

15             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

17             MR. LUKIC:  We are.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, would you prefer to start with the

19     testimony of the witness and then to interrupt it after some 20 minutes,

20     take a break, and then -- or would you prefer to start after a break?  We

21     then take a break until ten minutes past 1.00, and would have another 65

22     minutes to go.  I leave it in your hands.

23             MR. LUKIC:  I would take the other offer.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  You would take the second option.

25             Then that's how we'll proceed.  We'll take a break and we will


Page 25383

 1     resume at 10 minutes past 1.00.

 2                           --- Recess taken at 12.49 p.m.

 3                           --- On resuming at 1.14 p.m.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  While we are waiting for the witness to be brought

 5     in, I'll just deal with one matter related to Witness Indjic.

 6             Last week Witness Indjic testified before this Chamber.  During

 7     the course of his testimony, the witness made references to notes which

 8     he keeps at his house.  The witness agreed to make these notes available

 9     to the Tribunal but requested that an officer of the Tribunal accompany

10     him.

11             On the 4th of September, the Chamber requested the Registrar to

12     appoint an officer responsible for the chain of custody of the notes

13     after being handed over.  The confidential status of this decision is

14     hereby lifted.

15             During the witness's testimony, the Chamber also ordered the

16     witness as well as anyone else not to destroy or dispose of the notes.

17     The Registry informed the Chamber in the afternoon of the 4th of

18     September of this year that the witness had expressed some hesitation

19     about handing over the notes voluntarily.  It was then clarified to the

20     witness that there was no order from the Chamber about having to hand

21     them over and that it was entirely up to him whether he would hand over

22     the notes.

23                           [The witness entered court]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  We have received news from the Registry that the

25     witness has handed over the notes and that they are currently in the


Page 25384

 1     possession of the Registry.

 2             And this concludes this statement.

 3             Good afternoon, Mr. Lukic.  Mr. Lukic, unless you have any

 4     problem in standing, could I invite you to stand.  But if you would

 5     prefer to remain seated, please do so.  The Rules require you to make a

 6     solemn declaration.  The next is now handed out to you.  May I invite you

 7     to make that solemn declaration.

 8             Mr. Usher, have you handed out the -- well, if you have

 9     difficulties in standing, then -- okay.

10                           WITNESS:  VLADIMIR LUKIC

11                           [Witness answered through interpretation]

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I solemnly declare that I will

13     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.  Please be seated.

15             Mr. Lukic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Lukic.  Mr. Lukic,

16     you'll find him to your left, is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

17             Mr. Lukic, you may proceed.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

19                           Examination by Mr. Lukic:

20        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Professor Lukic.

21        A.   Good afternoon.

22        Q.   For the record, please tell us your first and last name.

23        A.   My name is Vladimir Lukic.  I was born in 1933 in Sanski Most in

24     the village of Dabar.

25        Q.   Thank you.


Page 25385

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] May we have 65 ter 1D02457 on the

 2     screens.  It is Mr. Lukic's statement.  I would kindly ask the usher to

 3     hand over a hard copy of the statement to Mr. Lukic.  The Prosecution has

 4     already been convinced that it is a clean copy.

 5        Q.   Professor, do you recall having provided a statement to members

 6     of Mr. Karadzic's Defence team?

 7        A.   I do.

 8        Q.   Please turn over to the last page.

 9        A.   Yes, this is my statement bearing my signature.

10        Q.   Thank you.  The statement originates from the Karadzic case, thus

11     we may have some issues with the numbers.  However, I hope that

12     Mr. Traldi and I will be able to point you to the right paragraph of the

13     statement so as to avoid any confusion.  Is the statement you provided

14     accurate and truthful as given to Mr. Karadzic's Defence team?

15        A.   It is absolutely truthful and it is mine.

16        Q.   If I were to put the same questions to you today, would you

17     basically provide the same answers?

18        A.   There is no doubt that I would respond to those questions the way

19     I already have.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] At this moment, we would like to

21     tender Professor Lukic's statement into evidence.

22             MR. TRALDI:  No objection, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter number 1D2457 will be D626.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.


Page 25386

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I will read out the shortened version

 2     of Mr. Lukic's statement and will have only a few questions following

 3     that.  [In English] May I do so, Your Honour?

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

 6             In early June 1992, Vladimir Lukic was appointed commissioner for

 7     the municipality of Novo Sarajevo.

 8             From July the 1st until 19th of December, 1992, Vladimir Lukic

 9     worked as a representative of the Republika Srpska at the UNPROFOR in

10     Sarajevo.

11             Vladimir Lukic received many reports about crimes against Serbs

12     in Sarajevo.  He passed on all reports and eye-witness accounts to the

13     UNPROFOR but did not receive satisfactory responses.

14             Vladimir Lukic found UNPROFOR to be negatively disposed towards

15     the Serbian side in a number of respects.  UNPROFOR was inconsistent in

16     enforcing the ban on firing from its immediate vicinity.  It was further

17     always assumed without checking that shelling was committed by Serbs.

18             He observed that when Serbian artillery fired at a target in the

19     city, it was always a military target, although UNPROFOR would

20     nonetheless describe it as a civilian target.

21             UNPROFOR, according to Professor Lukic, was aware of the Muslim

22     snipers in Sarajevo.

23             In mid-December 1992, Vladimir Lukic was offered by Radovan

24     Karadzic to be prime minister of the new government and he accepted that

25     offer.


Page 25387

 1             The position of the government was that all citizens of the RS,

 2     regardless of ethnicity, must be guaranteed freedom of movement according

 3     to their freely expressed will.

 4             The government constantly called for the establishment of the

 5     rule of law and the protection of all citizens including refugees

 6     regardless of ethnicity.  This included ordering the ministries of

 7     interior and defence and the security service of the VRS to use all legal

 8     means to protect civilians and their property regardless of ethnicity.

 9             The electricity situation in Republika Srpska was dramatically

10     bad which affected all sides of society.  The Muslim side repeatedly cut

11     power supply lines.

12             The government of Republika Srpska called for the unhindered

13     passage of humanitarian convoys to both Muslims and Croats.

14             The government tried, with all its powers, to prevent private and

15     illegal relocation of refugees and demanded that criminal proceedings be

16     initiated against those who were involved in such activities.

17             The government experienced significant problems with the

18     municipalities which functioned as states within a state with significant

19     power.  The presidency and the government fought to centralise government

20     in keeping with the constitution.

21             This was statement summary of Professor Lukic and with your leave

22     I would just pose several questions for this -- for our witness.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.  [Interpretation] Can we please have

25     document 1D02443 in e-court.


Page 25388

 1        Q.   Professor, it has to do with paragraph 20 of your statement.  I

 2     wanted to remind you of the numbers.  The number we will be referring to

 3     is different from the number used in the previous case.  A corresponding

 4     table was provided to the Prosecution and the Chamber for their perusal.

 5             As you can see on the screen, it was a -- the Elektroprivreda

 6     company of Republika Srpska that issued the document.  It's subcompany

 7     Distribucija Pale.  On the 11th of January, 1993, it informed the

 8     government of Republika Srpska - it says to prime minister Vladimir Lukic

 9     personally - of some apply and distribution issues in Visegrad, Rogatica,

10     Sokolac, Pale and Vogosca.  Do you recall having seen this document?

11        A.   Certainly I do.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness kindly

13     repeat the last sentence.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you repeat the last sentence.  You said:

15             "Certainly I do."

16             And what did you then say?

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   The interpreters did not hear your last sentence when I asked if

19     you recalled the document.

20        A.   I do recall the document.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Perhaps you come a bit closer to the

22     microphone, Mr. Lukic.

23             Please proceed.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

25        Q.   [Interpretation] What do you recall about this document?


Page 25389

 1        A.   The moment I arrived in Pale I saw there was no electricity and

 2     that the generators were used to power it.  It became clear to me --

 3        Q.   Stop for a moment, Professor.  It is in the statement already.

 4     But do you recall anything specific as regards this document?

 5        A.   I remember that we took measures to have electricity brought from

 6     Visegrad to Rogatica and Pale as well as Sokolac, and to have electricity

 7     supplied to Vogosca where the military production facilities were.  We

 8     managed to do so by going to Rogatica and conducting a meeting there with

 9     our unit commander.  We asked of him to move the front line held by

10     Muslims, because they regularly fired at our power cables cutting off

11     electricity in the process.  He promised to do so to vice-president to

12     Mr. Koljevic, to Mr. Tolimir and myself, to do so.  He indeed did manage

13     to push back enemy positions by some 4 to 4 and a half kilometres.

14             With the help of our electrical company as well as a number of

15     people from Serbia who also required electricity, because we provided

16     electricity to them from our hydroelectric plant, we managed to bring

17     electricity to all of the settlements I enumerated.

18             More importantly, our military equipment production was set in

19     motion in Vogosca.  There was no further need in those locations for the

20     power generators, meaning we no longer had to use fuel for lightening and

21     other needs.  I think it was a very important step which we did at the

22     outset.  Later on, we managed to bring electricity to some other of our

23     settlements around Sarajevo.

24        Q.   Thank you.  I wanted to show you another document.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In our case it is 1D02445.


Page 25390

 1        Q.   It has to do with paragraph 74 of your statement.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, if you deal with the document during the

 3     testimony of the witness, you could tender that and then --

 4             MR. LUKIC:  [Overlapping speakers].

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  -- and reduce the number of associated exhibits.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Because I agree with the Prosecution that I will --

 7     if you have their e-mail, there was objection by the Prosecution

 8     regarding six documents from our list.  I will tender only two from bunch

 9     of these six, and I will not tender other four.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay but --

11             MR. LUKIC:  And I --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  -- I then still do not know which ones --

13             MR. LUKIC:  But I can --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's deal with as many --

15             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  -- documents as possible during the testimony of the

17     witness and what then remains, we'll see.

18             MR. LUKIC:  I would then tender this document, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  No objections.

20             Mr. Registrar.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 1D2443 will be Exhibit D627.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  D627 is admitted.

23             MR. LUKIC:  And the next one I would like to have in the e-court

24     is 1D02445.

25        Q.   [Interpretation] We have the document before us, Professor.  It


Page 25391

 1     is a decision on the appointment of a republican commissioner in the

 2     municipality of Odzak.  In the signature block we see the name

 3     Vladimir Lukic.  Can you see that?

 4        A.   Yes, I can.

 5        Q.   It is you, correct?

 6        A.   Yes.  No doubt.

 7        Q.   We see that the date is the 19th of February, 1994.  How come

 8     commissioners were still being appointed to municipalities at the time if

 9     you recall?

10        A.   It's difficult to recall each and every event, but it is worth

11     mentioning the fact that Republika Srpska at the time functioned as a

12     confederation of municipalities.  Depending on their individual financial

13     status, they tried to be as independent as possible.

14             What was important was that in this particular municipality,

15     there was a tendency -- well, I think they wanted to command the armed

16     forces themselves as well as to govern some other aspects of life and

17     society.  We revoked that right and the commissioner was appointed to

18     bring it within some normal limits.

19        Q.   We see the decision itself but did the commissioner indeed take

20     over his duty and work in the field?

21        A.   Yes.  For a short period of time before the municipalities were

22     finally organised.  We later attempted to have each and every

23     municipality properly set up with its municipal assembly, the council,

24     and so on and so forth.  At that time, all of the commissioners, of whom

25     there were many by that time, gradually left their positions leaving the


Page 25392

 1     job to municipality organs.

 2        Q.   Thank you, Professor.  This was all we had for you.

 3        A.   Thank you.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  I don't know if, Your Honour, you want me to explain

 5     on each paragraphs those documents I'm not going to tender refer --

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  But perhaps first --

 7             MR. LUKIC:  This one I would tender into evidence.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  This one you would like to tender.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.

11             Mr. Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 1D2445 will Exhibit D628, Your

13     Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

15             Mr. Lukic, there is a large number of associated exhibits, isn't

16     it?  Some of them have, I think it -- we started at 89, which is

17     certainly above the number that the Chamber would be inclined to accept

18     unless there was any precise explanation as to why we need them.  That's

19     one issue.

20             The second issue is that although many of the documents are

21     anything between one and five pages, there are still some 15 between the

22     10 and the 20 pages, but we have certainly also documents which go well

23     beyond 20 pages going up to 285 pages or 466 pages, the very long ones.

24     Do we really need all that?

25             MR. LUKIC:  No.  What we need is the portion of the document


Page 25393

 1     discussed by the witness in his statement.  Very often, even if it's a

 2     60-page document, it's referred only to one paragraph.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But --

 4             MR. LUKIC:  [Overlapping speakers].

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  -- uploaded, is only the one paragraph uploaded.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  No, we don't have the -- because we used the Karadzic

 7     statement and documents.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  But -- yes.  But we have to --

 9             MR. LUKIC:  [Overlapping speakers].

10             JUDGE ORIE:  We have to try to organise that in a different way

11     because if there are 466 pages in evidence of one of these documents,

12     then the Chamber will read it and will rely on 466 pages.  That's how we

13     work.

14             So therefore it's up to you, perhaps, to agree with Mr. Traldi

15     what are the relevant pages and to ask Mr. Traldi whether he would like

16     to add pages for purposes of context and then to come to a conclusion

17     what need to be tendered.  And then, of course, we would need certainly a

18     table of concordance --

19             MR. LUKIC:  We --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  I saw that in the list we saw that the new numbers

21     are mentioned.

22             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah.  We --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  But if we have reduced sized documents, then of

24     course we need a new table of concordance.

25             MR. LUKIC:  I will -- now you have chart of concordance 92 ter.


Page 25394

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  No -- but that's the 65 ter numbers as -- as they

 2     are used now.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  And I take it -- unless you want to reduce under the

 5     same 65 ter number the --

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Well, we'll agree with the Prosecution --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  -- which is the best way.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then this still does is not resolve the huge

10     number.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Have you thought about that?

13             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.  This is our only witness that comes from the

14     government.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

16             MR. LUKIC:  So we thought that it's necessary for us to include

17     as many documents as possible through the witness, and he has the

18     personal knowledge of I think almost every single document --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20             MR. LUKIC:  -- we proposed to be admitted with his statement.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, there are also four documents without an

22     English translation if I'm --

23             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  -- I am well informed.

25             MR. LUKIC:  I spoke with Mr. Traldi this morning and I asked him


Page 25395

 1     if he wants me to read paragraphs that we want -- actually, that were

 2     discussed in the statement of Professor Lukic, and Mr. Traldi told me

 3     that it's not necessary.  But if Your Honours think that I should do

 4     that.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  Just to clarify, I had meant that I thought it would

 6     be more efficient to request a translation of those paragraphs --

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

 8             MR. TRALDI: -- not that they should be admitted without a version

 9     in English.

10             MR. LUKIC:  We asked for translation of those whole documents,

11     but those documents could be MFI'd then before the translation is

12     finished.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I suggest, Mr. Lukic, that we'll start with

14     the cross-examination now, that you'll prepare a new list of what still

15     remains, what your plans are, with -- whether or not to translate,

16     whether there is any agreement with Mr. Traldi in reducing the size of

17     it, and that you present that tomorrow.  So that's -- and then we'll

18     discuss whether -- what can be admitted and what should be MFI'd.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Only I'm afraid that maybe by tomorrow, we will not

20     be able to have those short versions of the documents in the e-court.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, if you have an agreement with Mr. Traldi,

22     that's a good start.  And then the -- perhaps on your list, you put it

23     short version still to be uploaded into e-court so that we know that

24     there is an agreement, that we know how many pages there are, but that we

25     also know that we cannot yet MFI it but that we'll then reserve a number


Page 25396

 1     for it so that we proceed in the most efficient way.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

 3             MR. TRALDI:  And, Mr. President, on a related note and for

 4     completeness, I note that there are a couple of documents, 65 ter

 5     1D02506, I believe, is one example, for which a partial translation has

 6     already been uploaded and the B/C/S is complete.  My understanding after

 7     speaking to my learned friend is that the Defence is relying only on the

 8     portions of those documents which have been translated into English.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So it's limited to that.

10             Okay.  We'll look at your --

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  But in these cases, the relevant part of -- in

12     B/C/S should be uploaded as a new document so that it corresponds

13     perfectly with the English translation.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honours.

15             MR. TRALDI:  And we'd just ask, perhaps, for the precision of the

16     record, many of these are minutes, that the cover page be uploaded too so

17     that it's identifiable.

18             MR. LUKIC:  We agree.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then perhaps, needless to say, that a few of

20     the documents that were on the your associated exhibit list are already

21     in evidence.  I think that we have identified three.

22             MR. TRALDI:  I think it may be four now.  I think one was

23     admitted last week.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  It may be four now.  Yes, that could be.

25             So if you please keep that in mind as well and now come with a


Page 25397

 1     now consolidated list in which all this information is put together and

 2     that we -- so that we can proceed.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Having dealt with that, Mr. Lukic, you'll now be

 5     cross-examined by Mr. Traldi.  You'll find Mr. Traldi to your right.

 6     Mr. Traldi is counsel for the Prosecution.

 7             Mr. Traldi, please proceed.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 9                           Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi:

10        Q.   Good afternoon, sir.  I'm sorry, were you able to receive

11     interpretation?

12        A.   Could I please have the interpretation?

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, there seems to be a problem.  Could the usher

14     assist.  Let's see whether you're on the right channel and whether all

15     the -- can you still not hear my -- Mr. -- can you hear the

16     interpretation of what I say now?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I can hear it now.  Yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we can proceed.

19             MR. TRALDI:

20        Q.   Good afternoon, sir.

21        A.   Good afternoon.

22        Q.   Sir, you mention in paragraph 5 of your statement that you knew

23     Professor Koljevic before the war and you say:

24             "We had identical views on the prewar situation in the former

25     Yugoslavia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, and especially Sarajevo."


Page 25398

 1             And you're referring here to Professor Nikola Koljevic, a member

 2     of the Republika Srpska presidency during the war; correct?

 3        A.   Correct.

 4        Q.   And you also mention there that on one occasion in, 1991, you met

 5     with Radovan Karadzic.  He was then the president of the SDS; right?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  Can 65 ter 31216 be brought to our screen.

 8        Q.   And while it comes up, you and Mr. Karadzic discussed the best

 9     way to link the Krajina with the Semberija region; right?

10        A.   We did not discuss anything.  He just put one question to me and

11     that was what was the best link between Krajina and Bijeljina; i.e., the

12     eastern part of Republika Srpska.  And I answered that it's always the

13     route along the valley, that would be the right bank of the Sava River,

14     where the road goes today and it always went in that direction towards

15     Brcko and Bijeljina.  And that was all of our conversation on that topic.

16     The two of us did not have any other conversations at that time.  We

17     didn't even know each other.

18        Q.   Now, if you look at your screen, this is a map you marked in the

19     Karadzic trial, it shows the length that you recommended; correct?

20        A.   Yes, more or less.  That's that route.  You cannot mark that road

21     precisely on this map because there are some distortions, but you could

22     understand that as the approximate route.  Yes.

23        Q.   And you recommended this route because it was the easy to defend;

24     correct?

25        A.   I recommended the route because all the roads leading to


Page 25399

 1     Bijeljina were more or less closed.  They were closed from May 1990

 2     onwards, and then in mid-1990 all the roads were closed or dangerous.  So

 3     that was that route.  It would be easier if we wanted a firm position.

 4     It's always to defend a mountain or a hill road rather than a road in a

 5     valley from the point of view of defence.  But when we are talking about

 6     traffic, then we know that valley roads are better than mountain roads

 7     and that they are the most favourable routes for laying down roads.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  I'd tender this document, 65 ter 31216.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P6726, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  And admitted into evidence.

12             MR. TRALDI:

13        Q.   And just in relation to your last documents about the document.

14             MR. TRALDI:  I'd ask that we have 65 ter 31218, page 36 at the

15     bottom.

16        Q.   This will be the transcript of the first day of your testimony in

17     the Karadzic trial.

18             MR. TRALDI:  And we'll be starting at line 25.  So we'll continue

19     to the top of the next page in a moment.

20        Q.   And you were asked to mark this map, and you said:

21             "Now, Dr. Lukic, the usher will assist you with the pen, and I'd

22     like on you to please draw that link," turning to next page, "between

23     Krajina and Semberija through the Sava River valley that you proposed to

24     Dr. Karadzic in 1991."

25             And you answered, "This isn't" -- and as you said today:


Page 25400

 1             "This isn't very precise, I apologise.  But along the right bank

 2     of the Sava, of course wherever you could go through.  And this is the

 3     right way in all weather conditions, and the easy to defend."

 4             So you testified in the Karadzic trial that you were recommending

 5     the easiest route to defend, didn't you?

 6        A.   I did probably say that, but the most important feature of a

 7     valley route would be for traffic, for roads, and it's much easier than

 8     mountain roads.  But if you want to be very precise, then a hill road is

 9     always more easily defended, especially the one that goes to the highest

10     parts, to the crests of the feature.  But they are not so easy if we have

11     inclement weather.

12        Q.   Sir, you've -- sir, excuse me.

13        A.   Excuse me, excuse me.  I just wanted to say something more.  That

14     people who are not well versed in that don't know.  When we say

15     "defence," it can be defence from floods, from avalanches --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers].

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  -- from different other serious

18     threats.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me stop you.  Mr. Traldi asked you whether you

20     were recommending the easiest route, and then you started explaining a

21     lot.  Mr. Traldi then tried to interrupt you, and you showed irritation

22     and you wanted to continue.  You went well beyond the question.

23             Mr. Traldi can interrupt you in order to take you back to what he

24     asked you.  There is no reason at that point in time where you went

25     beyond what Mr. Traldi asked you to show any irritation or to continue as


Page 25401

 1     you wish rather than to follow the questions that are put to you by

 2     Mr. Traldi.  Let that be clear.

 3             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

 4             MR. TRALDI:

 5        Q.   Now, sir --

 6             MR. TRALDI:  If we could turn to the next page, actually, of this

 7     document.

 8        Q.   And we're still in your Karadzic testimony.  You discussed

 9     communications problems.

10             MR. TRALDI:  And if we could zoom in beginning on line 11.

11        Q.   You'd discussed communications problems in the Republika Srpska.

12     And directing your attention to lines 16 at the end of the line through

13     20.  You said:

14             "And I believe that it is clear to you that since the Croatian

15     side and the Muslim side had established their forces much earlier, we

16     were already -- we already had fears that this communication problem

17     would cost us many lives."

18             So while I appreciate the topographical insight you've provided

19     today, I'd put to you that in the Karadzic case, you were in fact

20     discussing defence in the typical sense:  Defence against Croatian and

21     Muslim forces, defence against the possibility that they would cost you

22     many lives.  That's true, isn't it?

23        A.   Well, you cannot just neglect that because we were cut off in

24     that entire area and later as well.  No one from the Banja Luka or

25     Krajina area, both Krajinas, could cross to Bijeljina.  And perhaps it's


Page 25402

 1     not so nice and it's a notorious fact that because there were shortages

 2     of medicines, patients in Banja Luka were dieing because they could not

 3     get the medicines they needed, particularly well known among these events

 4     was the death of 12 babies there.

 5        Q.   That event that you referred to just now, that was in 1992;

 6     right?

 7        A.   Early 1992, yeah.

 8        Q.   But after you'd had this discussion -- sorry, after you'd made

 9     this recommendation to President Karadzic?

10        A.   Correct.  But the roads were already practically cut.  Many in

11     Bosnia and Herzegovina, particularly those to Croatia for Serbs from

12     Bosnia and Herzegovina.  This was as early as 1990.

13        Q.   That will complete my questions about this topic.

14             MR. TRALDI:  Can 65 ter 03202 be brought to the screen.  This

15     will be the transcript of a meeting between President Tudjman,

16     Professor Koljevic, and Mr. Franjo Boras in Zagreb [Realtime transcript

17     read in error "Zvornik Brigade"] in January 1992.

18        Q.   And I'm going to ask you about a couple of Professor Koljevic's

19     comments keeping in mind your statement that you and he agreed on all

20     matters about prewar Bosnia.

21             MR. TRALDI:  If we could begin by looking at page 8 in the

22     English and 10 in the B/C/S.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Traldi, I think you said that this

24     conversation took place in Zagreb.

25             MR. TRALDI:  I did, and I see --


Page 25403

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Not in the Zvornik Brigade.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  That's true, Your Honour.  I see that perhaps my

 3     speed was off.  I apologise, and I'll try to be more careful.

 4             I'd asked for 03202.  Several years earlier and in a different

 5     country.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  While we're waiting for that, Mr. Traldi, I observe

 7     that you added that the witness agreed on all matters.  That's not what

 8     the statement says.  We had identical views on the prewar situation.

 9     That is not necessarily "all."  You added that.

10             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Sometimes I agree in main areas with someone without

12     necessarily agreeing on every single item.

13             MR. TRALDI:  I'm going to explore some of the details of that

14     point.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

16             MR. TRALDI:  So perhaps --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  That's fine, but I just wanted to insist on accuracy

18     in quoting the witness.

19             MR. LUKIC:  I'm sorry.  While you had this conversation with

20     Mr. Traldi, there was no translation at all.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Oh.  Is there -- is there translation now,

22     Mr. Lukic?  Yes.

23             While --

24             MR. LUKIC:  I --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  -- you were able to follow, I --


Page 25404

 1             MR. LUKIC:  I was able to follow, but maybe this wording by

 2     Mr. Traldi would be good to have repeated but "all."

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I think it is for the witness irrelevant but for

 4     Mr. Mladic it may be.  But I don't know whether he received any ...

 5             I put on the record that when Mr. Traldi refers to the statement

 6     of the witness or to his earlier testimony that he should do that as

 7     accurately as possible.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MR. TRALDI:

10        Q.   Sir, I'm going to explore some of Mr. Koljevic's views at that

11     time in an attempt to determine whether those are among the views which

12     you had which were identical to his.  And we can see him begin speaking

13     at the bottom of the page.

14             MR. TRALDI:  And if we turn to page 9 in the English and 11 in

15     the B/C/S at the bottom, and it's towards the top in the English.  I

16     apologise.

17        Q.   He says:

18             "Instead of denying sovereignty, we tried to offer a surplus of

19     sovereignty.  Let it be a sovereign Muslim Bosnia and a sovereign Serbian

20     Bosnia and a sovereign Croatian Bosnia.

21             "Therefore, let it be a sovereign state of sovereign peoples."

22             Now, was dividing Bosnia into sovereign Muslim, Serb, and Croat

23     areas one of the points that you and Mr. Koljevic agreed upon?

24        A.   Well, I could have expected anything but a question like this.

25     This was before the war.  We agreed to the extent that we needed to fight


Page 25405

 1     against war.  We agreed that we should try to prevent any crimes from

 2     occurring.  We agreed that it would be a great shame to breakup

 3     Yugoslavia, and so on and so forth.

 4             As to what you asked me about now, nobody even could have dreamed

 5     then that war would happen and that there would be requests for the

 6     sovereignty of this people and that people.  Particularly relevant is the

 7     fact that I did not attend that meeting.  I wasn't even close.

 8     Therefore, I really, really must say that I am a bit surprised about

 9     getting a question like this.

10        Q.   I -- sir, I --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, Witness, there is no need to express your

12     views on the question.  Just answer.  That's what we expect you to do.

13             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

14             MR. TRALDI:

15        Q.   Sir, just to repeat my question:  Was dividing Bosnia into

16     sovereign Muslim, Serb, and Croat areas one of the points that you and

17     Mr. Koljevic agreed upon; yes or no?

18        A.   That was not discussed so we couldn't have agreed on it.  We

19     didn't even speak about that.

20        Q.   Now, he continues --

21             MR. TRALDI:  Turning to page 12 in the B/C/S.

22        Q.   "We thought that this could be achieved legally without erecting

23     physical borders, but instead have it organised administratively and

24     politically with complete sovereignty according to the Swiss principle.

25     Now, there is a very interesting thing here.  You know that


Page 25406

 1     geographically there is a mixture of peoples in Bosnia.  That would first

 2     require the reconstruction of Bosnian municipalities which have been

 3     established to the detriment of the Croatian and Serbian people, and we

 4     have established that, that can be established easily."

 5             And he goes on and gives the example of Travnik, towards the

 6     bottom of the page, which he says is a Croatian town.

 7             So was the need to reconstruct the borders of Bosnian

 8     municipalities a matter upon which you and Professor Koljevic agreed?

 9        A.   We did not even talk about it, so we couldn't have agreed on it.

10             MR. TRALDI:  Turning to page 13 in the English and 17 in the

11     B/C/S.  Mr. Boras is discussing specific territories.  That's at the top

12     of the page in the English.

13        Q.   And he discuss maps, and he says in the middle of the

14     paragraph --

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Do we have the right B/C/S version on the screen?

16             MR. TRALDI:  It's at the very top.  And I believe his remarks

17     begin towards the bottom of the previous page.  But we could go back to

18     the bottom of page 16 for the clarity.

19        Q.   So that's where he begins speaking and he mentions the maps.  And

20     then in the middle of the paragraph says:

21             "We think, however, that this should be preceded by a

22     reorganisation of municipalities, and referendums" --

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Now we need the next page in B/C/S.

24             MR. TRALDI:  And that's actually the only part of his remarks to

25     which I was going to call attention.


Page 25407

 1        Q.   The next speaker, Mr. Manolic responds:

 2             "The aim of that reorganisation would be the homogeneity of

 3     certain areas."

 4             And Mr. Koljevic responds:

 5             "Yes, the homogeneity of certain areas."

 6             Do you see that in the text before you?

 7        A.   Yes, I hear it and I see it.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  Turning to page 32 in English and 41 in B/C/S,

 9     Mr. Koljevic is speaking again.  And he says -- and it's in the middle of

10     the second paragraph in the English, Your Honours.

11        Q.   "Those enclaves which can be established on the municipal level,

12     they should be delimited and then we should see what can be done with the

13     transfer, what can be accomplished by agreement, and we should institute

14     fair exchanges and create an agency for the civilised transfer of

15     property and population which would be in the interest of those people.

16     The personal 'homogeneity' was, as you know, vilified in Yugoslavia.  Why

17     should it be something terrible for people to live with people who are

18     closest to them?"

19             So I'll ask again:  Was -- did you and Mr. Koljevic agree that it

20     was desirable to establish ethnically homogenous areas in Bosnia and

21     Herzegovina?

22        A.   I don't even remember that we spoke in this way during the war.

23     And before the war this didn't even occur to me.  I didn't know anything

24     about it.  We did not talk about those problems using those words,

25     Dr. Koljevic and I.


Page 25408

 1             MR. TRALDI:  And, Your Honours, I'd tender this document, 65 ter

 2     03202.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P6727, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  P6727 is admitted into evidence.

 6             Do we need all the 55 pages, Mr. Traldi?

 7             MR. TRALDI:  I -- I think for a fair context of the discussion

 8     between what would become two of the warring parties, it's probably best.

 9     But I'm happy to discuss the matter with the Defence.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps if you would do so and if the parties would

11     agree that a smaller portion would do as well, then that would be

12     appreciated.

13             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

15             MR. TRALDI:

16        Q.   Now, sir, you discuss a number of events in Sarajevo in your

17     statement.  I have only a few questions about this aspect of your

18     evidence.  To start, in paragraph 4, you say you were the representative

19     of the Republika Srpska at UNPROFOR from the 1st of July to the 19th of

20     December 1992.  Now, you served as a liaison between the Republika Srpska

21     government and UNPROFOR; is that right?

22        A.   No, no, it's not.  I was just a representative of Republika

23     Srpska with UNPROFOR, and there was a military officer, in the beginning,

24     at least, who was the liaison officer.

25        Q.   Now -- and you were the representative of the Bosnian Serb


Page 25409

 1     presidency; correct?

 2        A.   No, I was a representative of Republika Srpska.

 3             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 31229.

 4        Q.   And while it comes up, you were appointed to this position by

 5     Mr. Karadzic; right?

 6        A.   I was appointed to the position by the president of Republika

 7     Srpska, Mr. Radovan Karadzic.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  And this isn't translated yet.  But if we could look

 9     at decision 354, and it's on the right.

10        Q.   And if you could just read out the text under point 1 so that it

11     can be interpreted, please.

12        A.   "Decision on the appointment of a temporary representative of the

13     presidency of the Serbian republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina for contact

14     with UNPROFOR.  Dr. Vladimir Lukic is appointed temporary representative

15     of the presidency of the Serbian republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina for

16     contacts with UNPROFOR."

17             I do also have a decision to that effect.  It's slightly longer

18     but the text to that effect is the same.  And I did not read that the

19     decision goes into effect on the day it is reached and it would be

20     published in the Official Gazette of the Serbian people of Bosnia and

21     Herzegovina.  The date is the 27th of June 1992 and it's signed by the

22     president of the presidency of the Serbian republic of Bosnia and

23     Herzegovina, Dr. Radovan Karadzic.

24        Q.   And you reported on your work to President Karadzic; correct?

25        A.   To members of the presidency, depending on who I could reach or


Page 25410

 1     whomever got in touch with me.

 2        Q.   Now, in paragraph 15 you state that you received many protest

 3     notes from UNPROFOR in relation to incidents which UNPROFOR alleged to be

 4     incidents of Bosnian Serb shelling.  Many of these protests asserted that

 5     the VRS had shelled civilian targets; correct?

 6        A.   It's correct that I received them, but they were mostly verbal.

 7     It was mostly verbal information.  They weren't written documents.  But I

 8     responded with correct information to many of these protests because I

 9     could see for myself that what the UNPROFOR drew my attention to wasn't

10     quite correct, so --

11        Q.   Sir --

12        A.   -- there are plenty of examples where I provided precise data.

13        Q.   And in terms of the information you provided in response, you did

14     not have the authority to conduct investigations into such protests

15     yourself, did you?

16        A.   Why would I not, as a representative of the government of

17     Republika Srpska, not be able to provide information in instances where

18     my people were getting killed.

19        Q.   I didn't ask whether you could provide information.  I asked

20     whether you had the authority to conduct an investigation yourself.  Did

21     you or did you not?

22        A.   First of all, it concerned no investigation.  No one gave me any

23     such authority.  We never conducted investigations.  There was no written

24     correspondence between us and UNPROFOR.  We were in the same building,

25     one room next to the other.  We regularly --


Page 25411

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers]

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  -- spoke discussing what was

 3     correct or incorrect.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I stop you there.  You have answered the

 5     question that no one had given you any such authority to investigate.

 6             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  And just --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes -- and -- no, I'm looking at the clock.  I'd

 9     rather advise you not to proceed at this moment, Mr. Traldi.

10             Mr. Lukic, we'll adjourn for the day and we'll resume tomorrow

11     morning at 9.30 in the morning.  And I'd like to instruct you that you

12     should not speak or communicate with whomever about your testimony,

13     whether that is testimony you've given today or whether that is testimony

14     still to be given tomorrow and perhaps even the day after tomorrow.

15             Is that clear to you?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Yes, it is.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Then you may follow the usher and we'd like to see

18     you back tomorrow.

19                           [The witness stands down]

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] [Microphone not activated].

21             JUDGE ORIE:  No loud speaking, Mr. Mladic.  You know the rules.

22             Mr. Traldi, there was something you would like to address.

23             MR. TRALDI:  Just so I don't forget tomorrow, Mr. President, if

24     we could have 65 ter 31229 marked for identification pending a

25     translation, please.


Page 25412

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  That's the decision of appointment.

 2             Is there any dispute --

 3             MR. TRALDI:  It is.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  -- about it?  Is there any reason to have this as

 5     written evidence available?

 6             MR. TRALDI:  Um --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  We have the date.  We have who appointed.  It's been

 8     read out.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  I'm in your hands in that regard, Mr. President.

10     I -- I'd used it as a result of the witness's testimony as to who he was

11     the representative of.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  That's accepted.  It's marginal whether we

14     really need this kind of evidence, but I'll not -- the Chamber will not

15     obstruct you in tendering it.

16             Mr. Registrar, the number would be?

17             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be MFI P6728, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, marked for identification.

19             We adjourn for the day and we will resume tomorrow, the 9th --

20     the 10th of -- no, let me.  The 9th of September, 9.30 in the morning, in

21     this same courtroom, I.

22                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.21 p.m.,

23                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 9th day of

24                           September, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.

25