1 Monday, 13 October 2014
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.40 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 After a non-sitting week, we'll resume which case,
7 Madam Registrar?
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
9 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.
11 I'd like to deal briefly with a few matters -- no, perhaps I
12 leave them. None of them are really urgent. We leave them until after
13 we've heard the testimony of the first witness, the first witness who
14 will appear before this Court through videolink.
15 Mr. Stojanovic -- Madam Registrar, is the videolink functioning
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, it's confirmed to me that videolink
18 is functioning properly.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Then let's establish whether the -- at this moment I
20 can see the representative of the Registry seated next to what I expect
21 to be today's witness.
22 [The witness entered court via videolink]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Could you confirm that you can hear us and that you
24 can see us?
25 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, yes. We have the
1 connection running.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Can you see us? Can you hear us?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is some noise, a buzzing
4 noise. It's not perfect. I have this buzzing.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any way to resolve that? Is it a local
6 problem on the other side of the videolink?
7 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, we would need a
8 couple of minutes to finish the tests. We didn't have time to finish
9 them. With your permission, could we please take five minutes.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we'll take a short break of five minutes
11 so that the audio is also functioning well without any disturbance.
12 The Chamber would like to be informed once the tests have been
14 We take a break of most likely not more than five minutes.
15 --- Break taken at 9.43 a.m.
16 [The witness stands down via videolink]
17 --- On resuming at 9.55 a.m.
18 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber understands that the technical problems
19 have been resolved. Let's give it another try.
20 Could we seek, first of all, confirmation from the other side of
21 the videolink that both video and audio are working well.
22 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honour, thank you. The
23 connection has improved and we can continue. I apologise for the delay.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 [The witness takes the stand via videolink]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Then could we hear from the representative of the
2 Registry who else are present in the room -- in the videolink room?
3 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, this is me,
4 Anna Vertelinkova, representative of the Registry. The witness is with
5 me and a member of the ITSS.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you so much for that.
7 Then, Witness, I take it that you're Mr. Gagovic.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you
10 make a solemn declaration that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth,
11 and nothing but the truth. The text is now handed out to you. If it
12 doesn't cause you any physical problems, could I invite you to stand and
13 make that solemn declaration.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
15 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
16 WITNESS: MILADIN GAGOVIC
17 [Witness answered through interpreter]
18 [The witness testified via videolink]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Gagovic. Please be seated.
20 Mr. Gagovic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Stojanovic.
21 Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.
22 Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.
24 Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
25 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Gagovic.
1 A. Good morning.
2 Q. I would kindly ask you to give us your full name, slowly, for the
4 A. My name is Miladin Gagovic.
5 Q. Mr. Gagovic, have you given a statement, a written statement, to
6 the Defence team of General Mladic in response to the questions put to
7 you by the investigators?
8 A. Yes.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would kindly ask
10 that we have document 65 ter 1D01670 in e-court.
11 Q. Mr. Gagovic, in front of you, I suppose you can see the statement
12 that we also can see here in the courtroom. I'm asking you if the
13 signature on the cover page of the statement is yours and if the
14 information contained on this page is accurate?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now please look at the
18 last page of this document.
19 Q. We also can see it here in front of us in e-court. Is this also
20 your signature and is this the date written on the statement written by
21 your hand?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, before we continue, the Chamber does
25 not have the document on its screen in e-court. There we are. Yes. It
1 has been fixed.
2 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. Mr. Gagovic, during proofing for your testimony, you indicated
5 that there were two typos in your statement.
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Let's look at paragraph 4, and I
7 would like the court services to zoom in on paragraph 4 in the witness
8 statements in the e-court.
9 Q. You said that the word "evezelje [phoen]" should be -- or,
10 rather, "vozulja" should be eliminated; is that correct?
11 A. Yes, it is.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] This should be moved away.
13 Q. You also told me that in paragraph 14 of your statement, please
14 pay attention to that.
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And also in e-court can we zoom
16 in on paragraph 14.
17 Q. The toponym "Kace" is mentioned, and you told me that the name of
18 that geographic location is Kacelj, so LJ should be added to the end of
19 that word; is that correct?
20 A. Yes, it is.
21 Q. Now that we have made those two corrections for the record, I
22 would like to ask you whether if I were to ask you the same questions
23 today would you adhere to your statement including the two corrections
24 that we have made? Did you provide your statement to the best of your
25 knowledge and recollection?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Does this statement represent the true account of what you know
3 about the events that you testify about?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to
7 tender Miladin Gagovic's statement into evidence. At the moment, it is
8 65 ter 1D01670.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Before we do so, Witness, would you give the
10 same answers as far as the substance is concerned -- no, I think you've
11 answered that question already.
12 Any objections?
13 MR. JEREMY: Good morning, Your Honours. No objections.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Jeremy.
15 Madam Registrar, the number would be?
16 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D1670 receives number D682,
17 Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: D682 is admitted into evidence.
19 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honours, I
21 would like to read a summary of Miladin Gagovic's statement.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so, Mr. Stojanovic.
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Witness Miladin Gagovic is an
24 All People's Defence teacher by profession. Before the war broke out, he
25 was appointed as the commander of a company in the part of the town known
1 as Dugo Polje by the Crisis Staff in Foca. Donja Polje. He had 80 men
2 under him in his unit.
3 The conflict in Foca broke out in April 1992. The fighting
4 lasted some ten days. The Serb established power in Foca and the units
5 which had participated in the fighting were organised according to the
6 principle of Territorial Defence. The VRS did not exist in Foca at the
8 The command chain went via the Crisis Staff up to June 1992, when
9 the 1st Foca Brigade was established in Previla. That unit became an
10 element of the Foca tactical group, headed and commanded by Marko Kovac.
11 He was -- the witness was the company commander in this unit up to
12 14 September 1992, when he was wounded and referred for treatment.
13 From December 1992, he was the assistant for logistics in the
14 battalion, and then from 1994 he was in charge of personnel affairs in
15 the Foca Brigade.
16 He will testify about the fact that the Muslim population started
17 leaving Foca even before the conflict started. They went wherever they
18 could and most of them left towards Gorazde, particularly after the
19 fighting started in the town of Foca.
20 Finally, the witness speaks about the front line which was set up
21 facing Gorazde and claims that in late May 1992 they did not send reports
22 to the superior command and that the communications with the command went
23 by courier.
24 His unit never received either an oral or written order to act
25 against Muslim civilians to expel them or to do anything illegal in their
2 This was a short summary of this witness's statement, and with
3 your leave, Your Honours, I would have just a couple of questions for the
5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Mr. Gagovic, in your statement in paragraph 9, you mention the
8 establishment of a tactical group, the establish of the 1st Foca Brigade.
9 You were appointed a company commander at that time. Could you please
10 tell the Trial Chamber when that happened and where?
11 A. The 1st Foca Brigade was established in the Previla sector in
12 late June, on the 27th or 28th of June. That's when I was appointed a
13 company commander.
14 Q. When you say in the Previla sector, could you please tell the
15 Trial Chamber where the Previla sector is?
16 A. Previla is in the territory of the Foca municipality, some
17 25 kilometres away from Foca in the direction of Jabuka commune.
18 Q. Up to then, up to that date, i.e. the 28th of June 1992, was
19 there an organised military structure in Foca as part of the
20 Army of Republika Srpska?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Before that date as the company commander in Donje Polje, who did
23 you receive your direct orders from?
24 A. I received my orders from the Crisis Staff of Foca.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 I would kindly ask you in light of paragraph 12 of your statement
2 to tell us what happened when you returned to your unit after the
3 treatment? That was in 1993, 1994 -- 1994. Where was the command of the
4 Foca Brigade then? Where were you physically located?
5 A. The command was in the Foca sector in a place known as Velecevo.
6 Q. Please give us some more details about the facility. What was it
7 used for before the war?
8 A. The facility was a prison before the war. As far as I remember,
9 it was for women only. That's where the brigade command was located
10 during the war.
11 Q. What were your specific tasks as the officer in charge of
12 personnel affairs in the brigade?
13 A. My duty was to be in charge of personnel affairs, to set up
14 units, to send people for treatment, to replace them with other people.
15 Those were my regular duties. I also sent reports on the strength of the
16 unit and their presence in various parts of the battle-field.
17 Q. In your statement, Mr. Gagovic, you said that Muslims started
18 leaving Foca even before the conflict broke out and especially after the
19 conflict broke out and during the skirmishes in the town of Foca. How do
20 you know that? How do you know that Muslims started leaving even before
21 the war?
22 A. I stand by my statement. I lived in Foca before the war started.
23 My next door neighbours were Muslims. They left and they -- as they were
24 leaving they asked me, What are you waiting for? Why did you not leave
25 already? After they left, I sent my family to Montenegro as well.
1 Q. What about the other inhabitants of Foca, those of Serb
2 ethnicity? Did they act in the same way as you? Did they also send
3 their families away from the combat zone?
4 A. I believe so. A lot of people left Donje Polje because
5 Donje Polje was where the most Muslims resided in Foca.
6 Q. Thank you, Mr. Gagovic. I have no further questions for you at
7 the moment.
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you for the
9 time given to me.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.
11 I have one very simple question, a line which I just do not
12 understand. It may be a translation issue. Paragraph 14, the first
13 sentence reads:
14 "The line Borovac-Hrinci," et cetera, "was established as a
15 separation and defence line."
16 Then the second sentence reads:
17 "In late may 1992, the line Osanica," et cetera, "was
19 And the third sentence reads, "One they we withdrew." "Day"
20 being spelled as t-h-e-y. I've got no idea whether there is any mistake.
21 Whether the witness could tell us again what the third sentence means
22 which apparently in the original starts with "jedan dan."
23 Witness, could you tell us what that short sentence, starting
24 with the word "jedan" means?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One day we were attacked on the
1 line Borovac-Hrncici-Gorca voda by Muslim forces from the direction of
2 Gorazde. We suffered losses, we had dead and wounded, and we withdrew to
3 another line.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Is there a technical problem Mr. Stojanovic?
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have not
6 received interpretation from the moment the witness started speaking.
7 Neither the General nor I received any interpretation.
8 JUDGE ORIE: You mean started speaking in the response to my
9 question or during the last ten minutes entirely?
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] We heard you, we heard the
11 interpretation of your words, but we did not hear the witness's answer in
12 B/C/S. There was no sound coming from that side.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I'll briefly read what was translated to us
14 because it goes well beyond my question, as a matter of fact. The
15 witness, and he should carefully listen whether it reflects his words,
17 "One day we were attacked on the line Borovac-Hrncici-Gorca voda
18 by the Muslim forces from the direction of Gorazde. We suffered losses,
19 we had dead and wounded, and we withdrew to another line."
20 And what I also heard but which seems not to appear -- no, I
21 think "one day" is the clue to the answer.
22 And, Mr. Stojanovic, I asked just to explain the day and I now
23 gained the impression, but you are better able to verify that, this where
24 "day" is spelled at t-h-e-y, that it should have been spelled as d-a-y,
25 so "one day we withdrew."
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One day.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think the witness has now confirmed this.
3 This being clarified, Mr. Jeremy, are you ready to start your
5 MR. JEREMY: Yes, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Then I'll first tell the witness by whom he'll be
8 MR. JEREMY: Well, Your Honours, before that, I would say that on
9 the basis of the -- the statement and on the basis of the direct
10 testimony that I've heard today, I don't have any cross-examination. I
11 made a time estimate on the basis that the videolink motion filed on the
12 7th of August, 2014, suggested that this witness would have unique
13 evidence on the functioning and organisation of units in Foca,
14 particularly of the tactical group and its relationship towards the
15 Crisis Staff, VRS, and General Mladic. On that basis, I reserved some
16 time for cross-examination.
17 JUDGE ORIE: But --
18 MR. JEREMY: But I've not heard that evidence, so I don't have
19 any cross-examination. Thank you.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Jeremy.
21 I would have a few questions, Witness.
22 Questioned by the Court:
23 JUDGE ORIE: In your statement, you tell us that you were a
24 company commander and that you were appointed as such verbally --
25 A. Yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Verbally, and I'm referring to paragraph 5 of your
3 Now in paragraph 6 of your statement you are referring to the
4 month of April where armed fighting in Foca related to the take-over of
5 power and control lasted about ten days. Were you in any way as a
6 company commander involved in that fighting, or were those subordinate to
7 you involved in that fighting?
8 A. No. I provided security for the hospital. You will find it in
9 paragraph 4 in my statement.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And that happened in the month of April as
12 A. Yes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now in paragraph 9 of your statement, and I
14 read it, it says:
15 "It was announced that the Crisis Staff was established, that a
16 tactical group was formed, somewhere in June 1992. And the
17 1st Foca Brigade was formed at Previla when I was a company commander."
18 The first part of this sentence, "it was announced that the
19 Crisis Staff was established," was that also in June 1992?
20 A. Yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, I have some difficulties in reconciling
22 that you performed your duty as a company commander in April, appointed
23 by the Crisis Staff, if the Crisis Staff was established only in
24 June 1992. Do you have an explanation for that?
25 A. The Crisis Staff had existed when the conflict broke out in the
1 territory of the municipality, and it was the Crisis Staff that appointed
2 me as the company commander until June 1992. And then in June 1992 when
3 the 1st Brigade was set up, I was also appointed as a company commander
4 until the moment when I was wounded on the 14th of September, 1992, in
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So the Crisis Staff existed already in
7 June 1992 when the 1st Foca Brigade was formed because it was operational
8 already in April. Is that well understood?
9 A. Yes.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, perhaps it's the language of the
11 statement which confused me, the sequence of events. The matter is clear
12 to me now.
13 Have the questions by the Bench, Mr. Stojanovic, triggered any
14 need for further questions?
15 And I should ask you the same, Mr. Jeremy.
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jeremy.
18 MR. JEREMY: No, Your Honours. Thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: No further questions.
20 Mr. Gagovic, this concludes your testimony in this court. It was
21 pretty short. At the same time, you should well understand that the
22 evidence you've given is mainly to be found for this Chamber in the
23 statement which was admitted into evidence and which is a statement of
24 several pages.
25 I would like to thank you very much for coming to the videolink
1 room and for having answered questions that you were put to you by one of
2 the parties and by the Bench, and I wish you a safe return home again.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: We can conclude the videolink.
5 [The witness withdrew via videolink]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, is your next witness ready after the
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think so, although we were
9 supposed to check during the break whether he has arrived.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I'll use the remaining time for a few
12 The first is that the Prosecution has advised the Chamber that it
13 has received the B/C/S translation for P6748, which is 65 ter 31236,
14 which was MFI'd through Witness Mihajlo Vujasin on the 16th
15 of September, 2014, pending translation. This is all to be found on
16 transcript page 25650. The translation has be received and is uploaded
17 into e-court under doc ID M000-8567-BCST.
18 If there are no objections from the Defence, the Chamber will
19 instruct the Court Officer to attach the translation and that P6748 is
20 now admitted into evidence.
21 If there are any problems, Mr. Stojanovic, within 48 hours you
22 can revisit the matter if there is any need to do that.
23 Then I'd briefly deal with the documents which were MFI'd during
24 the testimony of Nenad Kecmanovic.
25 During the testimony of Nenad Kecmanovic, two documents were
1 marked for identification: P6660, an excerpt from the transcript from
2 the 114th Session of the BiH Presidency; and D557, the Islamic
3 declaration by Alija Izetbegovic.
4 Through an informal communication, the Chamber was informed that
5 the parties have agreed on a selection to tender under P6660 but that a
6 translation remains outstanding.
7 Any update as far as the translation is concerned?
8 MR. TRALDI: Yes, Mr. President, and good morning. We received
9 that just last week and have provided it to the Defence and are just
10 waiting for them to confirm that it's sufficient.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'd like to hear soon from you,
12 Mr. Stojanovic, in relation to the excerpt and its translation of P6660
13 so that the then reduced version can be uploaded.
14 As regards D557, the Chamber was informed that the Defence wanted
15 to tender the entire 77-page document, even though only a small number of
16 pages was discussed with the witness. The Chamber would like to receive
17 the reasons for tendering the entire document and requests the Defence to
18 make submissions by the 20th of October of this year.
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] We understand, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Then finally another matter in relation to the
21 notebooks of Witness Indjic.
22 The parties have received copies of the notes handed over by
23 Witness Indjic. The Chamber indicated on the 16th of September, 2014, at
24 transcript page 25574 and -75 that it would await any submissions from
25 the parties thereon. The Chamber now sets the dead-line of the
1 27th of October, 2014, for these submissions.
2 And now there is another matter. Since we had a late start
3 anyhow, I'll deal with the last item which is on my agenda, but we have
4 to move into private session for that purpose.
5 [Private session]
11 Page 26612 redacted. Private session.
7 [Open session]
8 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 The Chamber is informed that the next witness will arrive by
11 11.00. We therefore take a break and we'll resume at 11.00.
12 --- Recess taken at 10.40 a.m.
13 --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
15 You're on your feet, Mr. Lukic.
16 MR. LUKIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Yes, I am.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning.
18 MR. LUKIC: While the witness is entering, but before he starts,
19 I would kindly ask for another half an hour.
20 [The witness enters court]
21 MR. LUKIC: So we need one hour with this witness. He was sick
22 the first time -- the first day he came late and I couldn't figure out
23 properly how much time do we need before this morning.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we'll see how your examination-in-chief
25 develops and until this moment we have no objections.
1 MR. LUKIC: I can tell you --
2 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers]
3 MR. LUKIC: -- I want to go through this witness with the
4 statement of one of the Prosecutor's Witness, RM081.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And --
6 MR. LUKIC: So that's why we'll need more time. And we'll
7 probably have to go into private session for that all the time.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I'll say one thing about that. It's usually
9 not that we go through the statement of another person with a witness,
10 you ask him questions about the same matter, and if there is any
11 inconsistency or any contradiction then, of course, you put to the
12 witness what another witness may have said. Just in order to have an
13 orderly examination.
14 Apologies, Mr. Jankovic, I take it, for not welcoming you when
15 entering the courtroom and to continue our discussions we had. Apologies
16 for that.
17 Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you make a
18 solemn declaration, the text of which is now handed out to you. May I
19 invite you to make that solemn declaration.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
21 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
22 WITNESS: MILENKO JANKOVIC
23 [The witness answered through interpreter]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated, Mr. Jankovic.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jankovic, you will first be examined by
2 Mr. Lukic. You'll find Mr. Lukic to your left. Mr. Lukic is counsel for
3 Mr. Mladic.
4 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
5 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I would kindly ask the
6 assistance from the usher just for a second to give Mr. Jankovic clean
7 statement. Can you check with the Prosecution, please.
8 Examination by Mr. Lukic:
9 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Jankovic.
10 A. Good morning.
11 Q. In front of you you have a statement --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, whatever this witness may have in front
13 of him, it's a good tradition that we first establish his identity.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] I'm trying to establish that,
15 the numbers. We speeded up a bit this morning, so I don't have the
16 number of this witness's testimony.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Could it refresh your memory, Mr., if -- let me see.
18 I do not see even the translation.
19 Would it be 1D01696a, signed witness statement of Jankovic,
20 Milenko, which you would like to have on the screen?
21 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Let's --
23 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Let's have a look at it.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And now you could ask the witness for his name.
1 MR. LUKIC: When you were not here, Your Honour, I was very
2 cautious. Now I'm pretty relaxed because I know I'm under good control.
3 Thank you.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I'm already the second who reminded you of that.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Can you please state your full name slowly for the record.
7 A. My name is Milenko Jankovic.
8 Q. Mr. Jankovic, have you given a statement to the Defence team of
9 General Mladic?
10 A. Yes, I have.
11 Q. On the screen before you, can you see the cover page of the
12 statement and the signature? Do you recognise it?
13 A. Yes, I can see it and that's my signature.
14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the speakers please
15 pause between questions and answers. Thank you.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Mr. Jankovic, I already asked you to make a pause after my
18 question because it needs to be translated into English, so wait for a
19 few seconds before you start your answer.
20 A. Very well.
21 MR. LUKIC: Can we have the last page of the same document.
22 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Jankovic, in front of you, you can see the
23 last page of the statement. Do you recognise the signature on it?
24 A. Yes, I do. That's my signature.
25 Q. We are now going to make a correction that you drew my attention
1 to last night, specifically in paragraph 5.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have paragraph 5 of
3 your statement on the screen. That's page 2 in the B/C/S and page 3 in
4 the English.
5 Q. Mr. Jankovic, it says here that you joined the Rogatica Company
6 in May of 1992 and that at the time you assumed the duty of the Rogatica
7 company commander. Is that correct or should it be amended?
8 A. It should be corrected because I did not have very clear
9 recollection of all the dates at the time when I gave my statement, so
10 therefore later on after reading certain documents, I came across
11 information that it took place on the 25th of July, 1992, following the
12 death of my relative who was the company commander of the
13 Rogatica Brigade at the time.
14 Q. What was his name?
15 A. His name was Milos Jankovic.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: What took place, then? Was it the formation of
17 the company or the appointment of the witness?
18 MR. LUKIC: Appointment of the witness the day after the killing
19 of the previous commander.
20 Q. [Interpretation] When was Milos Jankovic killed?
21 A. Milos Jankovic was killed on the 24th of May --
22 Q. May or July?
23 A. Wait a minute. No, I'm sorry. July. I am a bit confused.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could you tell us what documents you read
25 which made you aware of the date not being the correct date?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The documents that I read are the
2 following: I had a list of the combatants who got killed in the area of
3 Rogatica municipality from the outbreak of war until the end of war, and
4 that refreshed my memory concerning the date when I actually took over
5 this position.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
7 Please proceed.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Have you brought these documents with you to The Hague?
10 A. Yes, these documents are in my hotel room.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 MR. LUKIC: For the record I would just read how first three
13 sentences of the statement, paragraph 5, should read now after this
14 correction. I quote:
15 "This lasted two or three months. Then a unit was formed, the
16 Rogatica Company, sometime in May 1992. I joined the company at about
17 this time and took up the duty of the commander of the Rogatica Company
18 on 25th July, 1992."
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Lukic, just a clarification for me. The
20 first sentence reads in the original statement:
21 "This lasted two to three months."
22 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Now you read:
24 "This lasted two or three months."
25 MR. LUKIC: I misread, then.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Okay, then the original stands.
2 MR. LUKIC: The original stands.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
4 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
5 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Jankovic, this morning the OTP asked me
6 something which I would like to clarify with you. In paragraph 3 of your
7 statement, it reads that one such unit was formed in Pjesevica village.
8 [In English] P-j-e-s-e-v-i-c-a. Only P-j-e-c-e, no s, c-e.
9 A. If I may be of any help.
10 Q. [Interpretation] So is this the correctly spelled name of the
12 A. No, it should read P-l-j-e-s-e-v-i-c.
13 MR. LUKIC: Plj, Plj. Yes. So P-l-j-e-s-e-v-i-c-a, a.
14 JUDGE ORIE: We quickly move on now because the last spelling on
15 the transcript seems to be the correct one.
16 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Let's move on quickly before we have another
19 Please proceed.
20 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
21 Q. [Interpretation] After these corrections had been made,
22 Mr. Jankovic, is the information you provided in your statement truthful
23 and accurate?
24 A. All the information contained in the statement are truthful and
1 Q. If I were to put the same questions to you today, would you
2 provide the same answers?
3 A. I would completely give the same answers.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 MR. LUKIC: Now I would move and offer this statement into
6 evidence, Your Honours.
7 MR. MacDONALD: No objections, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D1696a receives number D683,
10 Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
12 Now the transcript started reading that Mr. Jeremy was expressing
13 there were no objections, then apparently this was removed but your words
14 are not reflected at this moment.
15 MR. MacDONALD: The Prosecution has no objections, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Well, now you're Mr. Bos, but still not your own
17 identity but you are relatively new, Mr. MacDonald, aren't you.
18 MR. MacDONALD: Once again, Your Honours, no objection to that.
19 JUDGE ORIE: There we are. It took Mr. Lukic three times to get
20 the right thing on the transcript, so --
21 MR. LUKIC: It's not only me this morning.
22 JUDGE ORIE: -- therefore it's one-to-one at this moment.
23 Yes, please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
24 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I would just read the short
1 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so. I take it that you have explained to
2 the witness the purpose of doing it.
3 MR. LUKIC: Yes, I did. And I did not have time to distribute
4 this to the translators, but I will be reading slowly and it's very
6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The English booth doesn't
7 have either version.
8 MR. LUKIC: Milenko Jankovic was born 20th of April, 1961, in
9 Rogatica. Witness will testify of arming of Serbs in Rogatica, their
10 self-organisation in villages in Rogatica municipality. He will explain
11 his knowledge on forming of Rogatica Brigade, its organisation, strength,
12 and activities in its zone of replenishment. He will testify on Muslim
13 attacks in Rogatica municipality in 1992, particularly from the direction
14 of Kozici, bordering with area controlled by Muslims.
15 He will testify on clashes which occurred in June 1992 when city
16 of Rogatica was partially put under control of Serb forces. He will
17 explain circumstances of Muslim population leaving Rogatica. Upon
18 Rogatica Brigade was established, witness was company commander in the
19 same. He will testify on reporting and relation with other parts of VRS.
20 He will also testify on incidents from indictment related to Rogatica
21 municipality, like about his knowledge about Rasadnik and
22 Veljko Vlahovic school.
23 And that was the end of this short summary.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
25 One very short question about the summary: Where in the
1 statement does it say that Serbs were armed in Rogatica?
2 MR. LUKIC: Paragraph 4.
3 JUDGE ORIE: I read there that trusted people were armed. Is
4 that to understand that only Serbs were trusted?
5 MR. LUKIC: I --
6 JUDGE ORIE: "Arms were only given to trusted people."
7 MR. LUKIC: But among others things Serbs as well, among other
8 people, or we can clarify with the witness.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps I immediately put that to the witness. In
10 your statement, Witness, where you say that only trusted people were
11 given arms when arming was organised by the Territorial Defence. Could
12 you tell us whether trusted people were to be found among all
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll try to explain. Those were
15 the people who did not drink, who had no criminal past, who were not
16 aggressive, or displayed any --
17 JUDGE ORIE: I was talking about ethnicity. Were any arms issued
18 to non-Serbs?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot say this exactly. I think
20 that was the case because in my unit I also had Muslim members.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Were they armed by the Territorial Defence at this
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
25 Please proceed.
1 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Jankovic, very briefly, who was at the head
3 of the Territorial Defence and what was his ethnicity? And I'm talking
4 about Rogatica.
5 A. Are you referring to the Serbian Territorial Defence?
6 Q. No, the joint TO.
7 A. At the head of the joint TO was Meho Agic or Mehmed Agic. I
8 think that was his name.
9 Q. For the record, what was his ethnicity?
10 A. Meho Agic was a Muslim.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, could you also clarify the apparent
12 existence of two TOs, the Serb TO and a joint TO, and which TO then was
13 distributing weapons?
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Mr. Jankovic, you heard the Judge's question. Can you answer it?
16 A. Following the division of the municipality into two parts, the
17 Serbian municipality and the Muslim municipality, automatically there was
18 a division in the police force and Territorial Defence. The Serbian
19 Territorial Defence armed the Serbian population, including a number of
20 Muslims who were attached to the Serbian population.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness also tell us up until what point
22 in time there was the joint TO and when the TO, the Serb TO, was
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Mr. Jankovic, you heard the question. I'm sure that you have
1 problems with the dates, but can you tell us?
2 A. I cannot give you an exact date, but I do know --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, you are supposed not to tell the witness
4 already in advance that he may have problems. He will tell us and there
5 should be no suggestion --
6 MR. LUKIC: He told me.
7 JUDGE ORIE: -- of that kind. Yeah. Okay. Then he will tell
8 us. It should not be part of the question.
9 Not an exact date. But you said you do know what?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know the municipal assembly of
11 Rogatica made the unanimous decision on dividing Rogatica municipality
12 into two municipalities. I really can't remember the date of that
13 meeting, but according to that decision the administration, the police,
14 the Territorial Defence, everything was divided into the Serb
15 municipality on the one side and the Muslim municipality on the other.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you remember the month that this happened, if
17 you don't remember the date?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's difficult for me to remember
19 the month when that happened. I know that it was in 1992.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know whether it was in the
22 month of ...
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. So you don't know exactly. Let's not speculate, then. You
25 mentioned earlier today that you --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, nevertheless, I'm still confused.
2 Considerably confused.
3 Witness, I asked you to explain what were the people trusted
4 sufficiently to receive weapons. You said they were those who were not
5 drinking but also Muslims would receive weapons. I asked you in relation
6 to paragraph 4 of your statement, that Muslims were -- whether Muslims
7 were provided as well, I asked were any arms issued to non-Serbs. Your
8 answer was:
9 "I cannot say this exactly. I think that was the case because in
10 my unit I also had Muslim members."
11 I asked were they armed by the Territorial Defence at this
12 moment, and you said yes.
13 Was that at that point in time the Serb Territorial Defence which
14 was providing arms to Muslims?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Were they given directly to the Muslims or were they
17 given to you as a --
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, not directly to Muslims. They
19 were given to people who at the time were the organisers of village
21 JUDGE ORIE: And village guards therefore were of mixed
22 ethnicity? Is that well understood?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were villages where those
24 guards were of mixed ethnicity.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Now, in your unit, as you called it, who were the
1 Muslims that received weapons through these channels? Could you give us
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were two brothers, Ezo and
4 Himzo Golic who received them.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
6 Please proceed.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 Q. You told us about your unit. What about Muslim members in other
9 units who received weapons to those celubs [phoen]?
10 A. Yes, for example in Stojan Petkovic's unit there were also two
11 brothers who were Muslims. I can't remember their names but their family
12 name was Drago. They were from the village of Socica, the hamlet of
14 Q. Very well. And now I'm going to ask you. We'll try not to go
15 into private session because after my question I'm just going to cite the
16 paragraph number of the statement of a protected witness, RM081.
17 MR. LUKIC: This is the guidance I got from Judge Orie where you
18 want to see the statement on the screen.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Well, let's -- you first have to ask the witness
20 about the facts.
21 MR. LUKIC: Okay.
22 JUDGE ORIE: If the facts are facts which are subject of any
23 statements by any other witness, then you can put it to the witness after
24 he has answered the questions, but of course the first question is has he
25 read already those statements?
1 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: He has?
3 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Witness, did you receive any instructions,
5 specific instructions when you were reading a statement?
6 And we now move into private session before you answer that
8 Madam Registrar, can we --
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is correct that I --
10 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please. We first move into
11 private session.
12 [Private session]
22 [Open session]
23 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
25 MR. LUKIC: May I continue, Your Honour?
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
3 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Jankovic, did Serb policemen decide to walk
4 out from the joint SUP? Did they do it of their own will or did that
5 happen under some other circumstances?
6 A. As far as I know, I mentioned that decision on the split of the
7 municipality into the Muslim and Serbian municipalities, and I also
8 emphasised that at the same time the Ministry of the Interior was split
9 as well as the Territorial Defence. In other words, this was pursuant to
10 a municipal decision on the division of the municipality into two parts.
11 In other words, it was done on a decision not of an -- of anybody's own
13 Q. Thank you. Were there markings on the uniform of the Serb
14 policemen depicting the SDS?
15 A. No, never.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Still, the decision, and I do not know whether the
18 Prosecution would be in a position to agree with you on when that
19 decision was taken, but we'd very much like to have a better time-frame
20 in order to better evaluate the answers of this witness.
21 So was it a written decision, was it an oral decision, is it
22 documented, et cetera? That is all relevant factual information this
23 Chamber would need.
24 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, we heard our witness, Mr. Sokolac, and
25 the document was introduced through his testimony.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then why not put to the witness whether it
2 would refresh his recollection if -- and the date of that decision was,
3 if the parties would agree on that.
4 MR. LUKIC: I -- I really had problems with this witness with the
5 dates, and I was trying to avoid --
6 JUDGE ORIE: No, I'm -- at this moment, I'm seeking whether the
7 parties can agree on the date of that decision.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] We'll have that decision
9 shortly if -- my colleague will go out and bring the decision.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well I -- the first thing I would like to have
11 is a date.
12 Prosecution, any suggestion as to the date?
13 MR. MacDONALD: Yes, Your Honour, through the Defence witness,
14 Mr. Sokolac, there was a report dated the 22 of June, 1992, which
15 referred to the date of the division as the 2nd of May, 1992.
16 JUDGE ORIE: 2nd of May. Is that also the Defence's position,
17 that the 2nd of May was the date of the division?
18 MR. LUKIC: That's what I know.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes.
20 MR. MacDONALD: For the record, Your Honour, that is P6773.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
22 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: And before you do so, Mr. Lukic, just to refer you
24 to the question you asked at page 34, lines 24, it was a leading
1 "Were there markings on the uniform of the Serb policemen
2 depicting the SDS?"
3 The correct question is: Were there any markings, if so, what
4 were they?
5 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Jankovic, we heard the number of the
7 document as well as the date. Do you know if in the building of the
8 municipality there was an arms depot belonging to the
9 Territorial Defence?
10 A. I am an employee of the administrative services of the
11 municipality of Rogatica, and I know only too well that that building
12 does not even have a basement.
13 Q. In your conversations with others, did you hear that weapons were
14 stored there at any point in time?
15 A. I never heard that there were any weapons in the municipal
16 building of Rogatica, that it was ever -- that they were ever stored in
17 the building of the municipality of Rogatica.
18 Q. Did you hear that the military wanted to take something from the
19 Territorial Defence in Rogatica?
20 A. Yes, I did.
21 Q. Just a moment. What?
22 A. Yes. I heard that members of the then JNA arrived in front of
23 the public security station building in Rogatica to take over the
24 military files of JNA members from the then department of defence. I
25 know that Mr. Ahagic was ready and willing to hand over that
1 documentation. However, members of the Rogatica police station prevented
2 that. An incident occurred. A member of the police in civilian clothes,
3 whose family name was Alagic, tried to disarm a member of the then JNA,
4 who was Albanian by ethnicity. I don't know his name. And then the
5 soldier used his knife and hit the police member. No fire was open at
6 the time. There was no exchange of fire of any sort.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I think also reference as to, apparently,
12 also the content of the statement of a protected witness should not be
13 done in open session. You can do that later, ask for private session,
14 say that this related to that, that related to this, but you already --
15 you already give some information about what a protected witness has
17 And therefore, Madam Registrar, would you please make a
19 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
20 MR. LUKIC: Shall I just ask then every time to go to
21 private session just to quote? Because it will be too late to go -- if I
22 go -- because I will have a lot of paragraphs.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I do not know whether -- do you want to put
24 them to the witness or ...?
25 MR. LUKIC: I can put it to the witness as well.
1 JUDGE ORIE: But then -- no.
2 MR. LUKIC: I thought --
3 JUDGE ORIE: If you just --
4 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers]
5 JUDGE ORIE: -- refer to what paragraph that statement is, then
6 you ask for private session later on and say the testimony of this
7 witness about A is linked in the Defence's view to paragraph so-and-so of
8 the protected witness, you can make that a list, or even do it in writing
9 and make a confidential submission but not do it the way in which you
10 were doing it.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Then I would proceed
12 along the same lines, and finally we will end up with a list. When we
13 have the final version of the transcript, we will be able to pin-point
14 the paragraph number. [In English] Let's go to the private session. I
15 think it would be much faster and we should have then this statement on
16 our screens but not to be broadcasted to the public. And I don't know if
17 you have to put down the blinds behind the witness, because he has to
18 have this statement on his screen.
19 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
20 JUDGE ORIE: If you would read the relevant portion of the
21 statement to the witness, but then -- yes, we don't have any B/C/S
22 version. Or summarise it.
23 MR. LUKIC: Okay. I can read it.
24 JUDGE ORIE: If it's not too long --
25 MR. LUKIC: No.
1 JUDGE ORIE: -- please read it. But only in private session.
2 MR. LUKIC: Private session, yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
4 [Private session]
11 Pages 26635-26638 redacted. Private session.
17 [Open session]
18 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
20 We'll take a break and we'll resume at 25 minutes past 12.00.
21 --- Recess taken at 12.07 p.m.
22 [The witness stands down]
23 --- On resuming at 12.32 p.m.
24 JUDGE ORIE: We're waiting for the witness to be escorted into
25 the courtroom.
1 Mr. Stojanovic, the Chamber understood that it's your wish not to
2 start the examination-in-chief of the next witness. Let us be very
3 clear. You should be prepared. That's one. And whether we'll insist on
4 the witness to come to this building, we'll see how the present witness,
5 the examination of the present witness develops, and then we'll decide in
6 accordance with that. But you should be prepared if any time is left.
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Microphone not activated]
8 THE INTERPRETER: No microphone.
9 [The witness takes the stand]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Your microphone was not activated, but I did
11 understand, Mr. Stojanovic, that you have no problems with what I just
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That is correct, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 Mr. Lukic, please proceed.
16 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. We can stay in the
17 open session.
18 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Jankovic, can you quickly tell us a few
19 names of the ten first Serbian soldiers that were killed on the
20 19th of June, 1992? The ones that you can remember.
21 A. Those killed were Sava Losic; then last name Stjepanovic, I can't
22 remember his first name; also killed was Miladin Losic; Tomo Rajak;
23 Miroslav Jovicic; and some others whom I cannot remember at the moment.
24 Q. [Microphone not activated]
25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
2 MR. LUKIC: Yes, I was warned. Thank you.
3 Q. [Interpretation] Did any of the Serbian units in Rogatica have
5 A. No, and I can guarantee for that because I have the knowledge
6 that this kind of devices, flamethrowers, were removed from the JNA
8 Q. Had there ever been any activity by the Uzice Corps in the area
9 of Rogatica or any part thereof?
10 A. I can fully confirm that the Uzice Corps or any units belonging
11 to it was operational in the area of Rogatica.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Was not operational.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Let's move now to Veljko Vlahovic school. Can you tell us who
15 was accommodated there?
16 A. The people who were accommodated in the Veljko Vlahovic school
17 were both Muslim and civilians of other ethnicities. The purpose was to
18 provide protection for them in the course of combat that was going on in
19 the town of Rogatica.
20 Q. Can you remember any names of non-Muslims who were accommodated
22 A. My uncle was in the school, secondary school, Veljko Vlahovic.
23 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the name of his
25 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could you please repeat the name of your
1 uncle who was at the Vlahovic school.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] His name was Milorad Neskovic and
3 his wife, Vera. There was also a relative of mine named Veljko Sucula.
4 There was also Vlasta Gavric, she was a Croat woman married to a Serb.
5 There were also the Brusin family, the whole family, daughter Silvja,
6 sons, Zdenko and Boro. I don't remember the name of his wife. And there
7 were other families as well whose names I cannot recall right now.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, in your statement you say that you never
9 entered the secondary school. What's the source of your knowledge who
10 were there?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is true that I had never gone to
12 the Veljko Vlahovic secondary school; however, I learned about this from
13 the soldiers who were securing the facility about who was accommodated
15 JUDGE ORIE: Now, what's the purpose of securing a facility if
16 they are just there for their own well-being?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The purpose was as follows: The
18 facility was security solely in order to prevent anyone coming to it
19 because everybody was armed at the time and preventing any incidents from
20 happening. There were families who lost their members and in order to
21 prevent any form of retaliation that is why there was personnel on duty
22 inside the facility.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And was that the result, that everyone could
24 leave sound and safe that facility being -- having been protected there
25 by these guards?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] People are free to go wherever they
2 wanted. However, it was suggested for the benefit of their personal
3 safety not to leave the facility.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. My question was whether everyone who had been
5 protected there survived well having enjoyed this protection?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think so. I have no information
7 that anyone was killed in the facility. I don't think that ever
9 JUDGE ORIE: And no one was taken by anyone else from that
10 facility and did not survive?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not to my knowledge.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 Q. The ground around the Veljko Vlahovic school, was it mined in
15 that period, June, July, August, September, and further on of 1992?
16 A. I can say with 100 per cent certainty that there were no
17 minefield around this facility. How do you plant mines around a school
18 in town? It's inconceivable. And I can claim that with full
20 Q. Do you know where the food was being prepared for the people who
21 stayed at the Veljko Vlahovic school?
22 A. The meals were prepared for those people at Upi Trans, and it was
23 delivered at the same time as it was delivered to members of the
24 Rogatica Territorial Defence.
25 Q. You say at the same time. Was it the same food or was it
2 A. Totally identical.
3 Q. How do you know that? What kind of connection do you have with
4 Upi Trans?
5 A. Well, the headquarters of the 1st Rogatica Company was at Upi
6 Trans and that is where the kitchen was which provided meals for members
7 of the Territorial Defence as well as for the people who were at the
8 secondary school Veljko Vlahovic in Rogatica.
9 Q. Was there any water-supply in the school or was there a shortage
10 of water?
11 A. There was water throughout the whole period because waterworks
12 were operational. There were sanitation and other equipment in the
13 school. The school had some ground floor rooms where windows were facing
14 east, whereas there were no windows on the west side of the school. And
15 there were two flats inside the facility occupied by a caretaker and one
16 of the teachers.
17 Q. After the fighting in Rogatica, did you see any burnt bodies
18 scattered around Rogatica?
19 A. I never saw a charred body in my life in Rogatica.
20 Q. Following the combat operations, did you see a lot of decomposing
21 bodies in Rogatica?
22 A. No, I didn't because it's simply impossible. Decomposing bodies
23 are a source of infectious disease; therefore, all the bodies should have
24 been buried and as I say I never saw any of them on the streets.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could you limit yourself to what you saw
1 and whether it would be possible or not on what should have been done is
2 a totally different matter. If there is any question in relation to
3 that, Mr. Lukic will ask you.
4 Please proceed.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 Q. Do you know where Teocak is near Rogatica?
7 A. Yes, I do.
8 Q. Were you able to see that area?
9 A. Yes, I was.
10 Q. Where from?
11 A. From the Upi Trans facility where the company was stationed.
12 Q. Did you see fires burning at Teocak where people were burnt or
13 did you see any fires at all that were burning for a long time?
14 A. I did not notice anything at Teocak and that same thing applies
15 to the soldiers who were securing Upi Trans. Had that been the case,
16 they would have been obliged to report such incidents.
17 Q. Now briefly about buildings, religious buildings. There were
18 mosques in Rogatica. One of them was destroyed. Do you know when was
19 the first one destroyed?
20 A. The first one was destroyed on the 24th of July, 1992. I'm
21 sorry, 24th of June.
22 Q. Was this part of Rogatica under Serb control when this mosque was
24 A. The Serbian forces were not in control of that part of the town
25 where the mosque was destroyed.
1 Q. Have other religious buildings been destroyed in Rogatica such as
2 the synagogue or the Catholic church? Do you know anything about that?
3 A. Muslim forces -- or members of Muslim units, rather, burned the
4 synagogue, but the Catholic church remained intact because it was located
5 in the Serbian part of the town of Rogatica.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you know who destroyed the mosque on the
7 24th of July, 1992?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. But I know that TO
9 members in Rogatica were not in that part of town at that time. I don't
10 know who destroyed the mosque.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Let me ask you: How come you know that that was on the
13 24th of June? What else happened on that day?
14 A. You know how. On that day our APC made a contact with the other
15 part of the Serb territory and passed through that part of the town. An
16 anti-tank mine was planted near the mosque and Slavisa Milackovic, who
17 was driving the APC, was killed on that occasion. A passenger in the APC
18 was wounded on that occasion. All that happened by the debris of the
20 Q. [Microphone not activated] I would like to move on to something
21 else. Do you know Tomo Batinic?
22 A. Yes, I know him.
23 Q. Was he wounded during the war?
24 A. Yes, he was wounded. I believe that that happened in
25 November 1992 in the Socica sector, in late November of that year, that
2 Q. After that, did he immediately get involved in the work? What
3 happened to him after the wounding? What kind of a wound was that?
4 A. It was a serious bodily wound. Mr. Batinic lost an eye and he
5 had serious injuries on his leg as well as lacerations on his face. He
6 was referred for further treatment in Belgrade. He spent there over a
7 year, and as far as I know he did not return. He did not occupy any
8 other duties after he was wounded.
9 Q. Immediately after he was wounded, did he move around the town?
10 Did he meet with people? Did he talk to people? Did he visit places
11 around Rogatica? Was he able to do that?
12 A. No. He was seriously wounded. He lost an eye. His leg was
13 injured. Therefore, he was not in a position to move around the town
14 immediately after wounding. He was urgently transported to Belgrade and
15 he stayed there for treatment for over a year.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could you tell us whether Mr. Batinic was a
18 civilian, was he a military man? Was he -- what position did he have, if
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that time Tomislav Batinic was
21 the president of the assembly. He was a civilian. He was not a soldier.
22 He was a civilian.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. And just one more piece of information, if you know. How was he
2 A. Mr. Batinic was in a vehicle and that vehicle hit a tank mine.
3 He was returning from a field mission. The driver of the vehicle was
4 killed and Tomo was wounded in the way I described.
5 Q. While you participated in the events in and around Rogatica, did
6 you ever see a plan according to which one-third of Muslims from Rogatica
7 had to be killed, one-third baptised and convert to do Christianity, and
8 the last third should leave?
9 A. I claim with full support that I never heard from anybody, and
10 especially not from my superiors, that something of that kind was planned
11 to happen in the town of Rogatica.
12 Q. And just one more seemingly unimportant piece of information:
13 Did you know Mirko Planojevic?
14 A. Yes, I knew him.
15 Q. Did he have a brother?
16 A. He did have a brother. His name was Ozren Planojevic.
17 Q. Mr. Jankovic, this is all that our Defence has prepared for you
18 and we thank you for answering our questions.
19 A. Thank you.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
21 Before we give an opportunity to the Prosecution to cross-examine
22 you, Judge Fluegge would have one or more questions for you.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Just briefly.
24 Witness, you told us about the destruction of the synagogue.
25 Where have you been when this happened?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was in the part controlled by the
2 Serbian army or, rather, the Territorial Defence.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: How far away from the synagogue?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Some 1500 metres, I believe.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could you see the destruction with your own eyes?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: How do you know that this was done by Muslim
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know because that part was under
10 the control of Muslim units exclusively. Two Serbian cafes were torched
11 at the same time as the synagogue and some private Serbian houses as
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is a conclusion you have drawn from the
14 location of the synagogue; correct?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: One other question. You told us about -- this
17 can be found on page 47, lines 19 to 21:
18 "I," talking about the school, "I learned about this from the
19 soldiers who were securing the facility about who was accommodated
21 What kind of soldiers were these? To which unit did they belong?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those soldiers were from the
23 Territorial Defence, a company of the Territorial Defence.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Which Territorial Defence, the joint one or the
25 Serbian one?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Serb Territorial Defence.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. MacDonald, are you ready to cross-examine the
5 MR. MacDONALD: I am, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed.
7 You'll now be cross-examined by Mr. MacDonald. You'll find him
8 to your right. Mr. MacDonald is counsel for the Prosecution.
9 Please proceed.
10 Cross-examination by Mr. MacDonald:
11 Q. Witness, I'd like to move chronologically through events in 1992
12 as briefly as possible. Can you tell the Court when you first joined the
13 Territorial Defence in 1992?
14 A. 20th of April, 1992.
15 Q. Now, in paragraph 4 of your statement in relation to the
16 distribution of weapons by the Territorial Defence, you state you were
17 called when some of the weapons were received. Who exactly called you?
18 A. The commander of the Territorial Defence.
19 Q. And who was that?
20 A. Mr. Rajko Kusic.
21 Q. So for the sake of clarity, this is the Serbian
22 Territorial Defence that you're referring to?
23 A. Precisely so.
24 Q. You say you joined the 20th of April, 1992. When did this call
25 take place?
1 A. I can't remember the date, but it was around that time when the
2 Territorial Defence was first organised. That's when we were called.
3 Q. Can you describe for the Court the type of weapons that you
4 mention in paragraph 4 in relation to this arming?
5 A. Only small calibre infantry weapons.
6 Q. How many men were in the unit at the end of April 1992?
7 A. I have to stress that I'm referring only to the village of
8 Pljesevica where I lived and where defence was indeed organised. There
9 were approximately some 50 or 60 people there but unarmed. Because small
10 quantities of weapons were distributed, they were handed over to the
11 village guards whose goal was to protect the population from a possible
13 Q. I believe you state that Milos Jankovic, your cousin, was the
14 leader of the unit in Pljesevica. Who was his superior?
15 A. Precisely so. The commander of the Territorial Defence was his
17 Q. So far as you're aware, did your unit, the one in Pljesevica,
18 ever receive any orders from Mehmet Adzic?
19 A. We never received any such order. Ever. I don't know. I'm not
20 familiar with that.
21 Q. For the sake of clarity, Witness, did that unit have any other
22 goal other than protecting the village of Pljesevica at the time at the
23 end of April of 1992?
24 A. The only task that unit had was to protect the village.
25 MR. MacDONALD: I wonder if at this point the Prosecution can
1 have 65 ter number 31407, please.
2 Q. All right. Witness, what you see before you is an order from the
3 1st Romanija Brigade to the command of the Rogatica Brigade on
4 21st April 1992. It is a request for an assessment on the readiness of
5 Territorial Defence units for combat.
6 MR. MacDONALD: If we can move to the second page in both.
7 Your Honours, I have to apologise here. The English translation,
8 unfortunately, did not contain the signature which Your Honours see on
9 the B/C/S translation. I did bring that to the attention of those who
10 translated it and I believe a revision is in process. When I move to
11 tender this document, I will ask to MFI it, Your Honours, in due course.
12 JUDGE ORIE: That's clear. Please proceed for the time being.
13 MR. MacDONALD: I am obliged.
14 Q. Witness, who has signed this document?
15 A. It says Dragoljub Macar. I didn't know the man, personally.
16 MR. MacDONALD: Okay. If we can go back to the first page in
17 both, please.
18 Q. Now, it -- I appreciate I've said this already, Witness, but just
19 to highlight the fact this is on the 21st of April, 1992.
20 MR. MacDONALD: Can the Prosecution please have 65 ter
21 number 31408. And, Your Honours, the second document is linked to the
22 first document which is why I'm moving directly to it just now. Thank
24 Q. Witness, this is a report on the 30th of April, 1992. Do you see
25 at the top just underneath to whom it is being sent that it states:
1 "Pursuant to order dated 21st April, 1992, I hereby submit a
2 report ..."
3 Do you see that language?
4 A. I cannot see it very well. Can this be zoomed in or something?
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. MacDonald, otherwise you'll read the relevant
6 portion you want to draw the attention of the witness to.
7 MR. MacDONALD:
8 Q. Well, Witness, this report does state it's being given pursuant
9 to an order dated 21st April, 1992.
10 MR. MacDONALD: If we can move to the last page in both
12 Q. I'm right, Witness, in saying that it's been sent by the
13 Territorial Defence commander Rasko Kusic on 30th April; that's right,
14 isn't it?
15 A. I can see his name but there is no signature.
16 Q. Thank you. Can we --
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It's not "Rasko Kusic" but "Rajko Kusic." Just
18 for the record.
19 MR. MacDONALD: I am obliged, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Do we see on the -- let me see. Yes, I see that we
21 are in paragraph 8 in the original, which is not visible in the English
22 translation. But may I take it that we are looking at that because we
23 see in capital letters, "We kindly request ...," which is part of
24 paragraph 8 of this document. I'm just comparing the left --
25 MR. MacDONALD: Yes, you're right, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: -- to the right.
2 MR. MacDONALD: Your Honour is correct that the paragraph numbers
3 are not reflected.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
5 MR. MacDONALD: If we can now please move to page 2 of the
6 English and page 3 of the B/C/S. My apologies, I have inverted those
7 numbers. Page 3 of the English and page 2 of the B/C/S. Thank you.
8 Q. Witness, near the top of the page we see the heading:
9 "Pljesevica Company - Centre 2." Now, that's your unit, isn't it?
10 A. Yes, Pljesevica Company indeed was our unit.
11 Q. Now just under it we see a -- well, we see the words "controlling
12 the entrance into the city from the direction of Sarajevo towards Konanje
13 and Zivaljevina and then securing," and there are a number of locations
14 that follow.
15 Is that in fact what your unit was doing on the
16 30th of April, 1992?
17 A. As far as I know one part of the neighbourhood of Karanfil was
18 joined to that unit unbeknownst to me. That unit that was in the
19 territory of Pljesevica did not control the entrance to the city from the
20 direction of Sarajevo.
21 Q. Can I just clarify the first sentence of your answer there. One
22 part of the neighbourhood was joined to, I assume, your unit, but that
23 was not known to you. Can you just explain what you mean by that?
24 A. I mean, the report. Maybe some other unit's competencies were
25 reported as being part of the Pljesevica Company competency. I claim
1 with full responsibility that we were not in that part of town and that
2 we did not control the passage of vehicles on that road. Not towards the
3 end of April.
4 Q. But you were deputy commander of this company, weren't you,
6 A. That's correct.
7 MR. MacDONALD: If we can move on to the next sentence.
8 Q. Weaponry and possession. And it says "2 x 12.7mm PAM." What
9 weapons are those, Witness?
10 A. That's an anti-aircraft machine-gun, 12.7 millimetres.
11 Q. And did your unit in fact have two anti-aircraft guns, Witness?
12 A. It is correct that two arrived in the unit but one was handed
13 over to Donje Polje and one remained in the village of Pljesevica.
14 Q. Now, Witness, my understanding earlier was that your testimony
15 was that you received light infantry weapons only. Are these light
16 infantry weapons?
17 A. Those were not artillery weapons. An anti-aircraft machine-gun
18 is --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, don't change the question. The question is
20 whether these were light infantry weapons. There was no suggestion that
21 it was artillery or whatever. Are these light infantry weapons?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, in my opinion.
23 MR. MacDONALD: I'll move on, Your Honours.
24 I'll seek to tender both of those documents. Although pending
25 the signature on the first one with the English translation, I'd ask that
1 be MFI'd in the meantime.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 Madam Registrar, the first document.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Document 31407 receives number P6813.
5 JUDGE ORIE: And is marked for identification.
6 THE REGISTRAR: And document 31408 receives number P6814,
7 Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of no objections. P6814 is admitted.
9 MR. MacDONALD: If I can now move to May 1992.
10 Q. When the Rogatica Company was formed, how many men were in that
12 A. I don't know the exact number. Approximately a hundred men.
13 Q. Did the Pljesevica unit become this company or was it combined
14 with others to become this company?
15 A. Not the entire Pljesevica unit because most of that unit were
16 elderly men who were unfit for service. They were just village guards.
17 The newly set up company was composed of the population from
18 militarily-able-bodied men from the part of town known as Karanfil.
19 Q. Do you know a man called Zoran Bojat?
20 A. Please repeat the name. I did not understand it properly.
21 Q. Perhaps it's my pronunciation. Perhaps I can spell it, the
22 second name, B-o-j-a-t.
23 A. I know one from Pljesevica, the other from Borik. So I know two
24 people by the same name, Zoran Bojat.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 MR. MacDONALD: Can the Prosecution please have 65 ter 31406.
2 Q. This is a report by a Zoran Bojat to the
3 Intervention Platoon Territorial Unit in Pljesevica and it is dated
4 19 May, 1992. Witness, in your statement you stated your company was an
5 intervention one. Is this addressed to your unit?
6 A. I really can't read what it says here. Could you please read it
7 for me? The picture is simply not clear enough.
8 Q. Very well. In the top left-hand corner, it states,
9 "Territorial Defence, Intervention Platoon, Pljesevica." The title is,
10 "Report on reconnaissance of the area of Sjemec." I won't read the text,
11 but it is a report submitted by Zoran Bojat. It is dated 19 May, 1992,
12 from Borike.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it possible to zoom in on the B/C/S version?
14 MR. MacDONALD: Perhaps we can try and zoom in on the B/C/S
16 Q. Does that help, Witness?
17 A. Much easier. So I can read it, if you will allow me. Can I
19 Q. Perhaps just --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Wait for a question.
21 MR. MacDONALD:
22 Q. Perhaps just now, Witness, if you just tell us whether this was
23 addressed to your unit?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Was there another Intervention Platoon in Pljesevica?
1 A. This is an Intervention Platoon that operated within the Borik
2 battalion, and it was composed of people from Pljesevica.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you now answer the question put to you by the
4 Prosecutor, please. The question was are there more than one
5 intervention platoons in the -- in this unit of yours?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was no Intervention Platoon
7 at all.
8 MR. MacDONALD:
9 Q. My apologies, Witness. Perhaps there was a mistranslation, which
10 can clarify this. In your statement in paragraph 6, you state: "The
11 company I led was an intervention company"; is that correct?
12 A. That is correct. That is the company that had been formed in
13 Upi Trans, not in Pljesevica.
14 Q. So it -- you're not aware which unit this report is being
15 directed to?
16 A. I don't know anything about this report. I don't know who it is
17 addressed to.
18 Q. Perhaps I can take you to one part of it, nevertheless. The
19 second sentence, Witness, states, "General mobilisation was carried out
20 in the mentioned area ..." Were you aware of a general mobilisation
21 taking place on 19 May, 1992?
22 A. No, I don't know that there was general mobilisation. I do know,
23 though, that people organised themselves and set up units in order to
24 protect their villages and their families.
25 Q. Yes, Witness. You stated about self-organisation with regard to
1 your own unit but that was under the command of Rajko Kusic; that's
2 right, isn't it?
3 A. Yes.
4 MR. MacDONALD: Your Honours, I wonder if this might be a
5 suitable point to have a break.
6 JUDGE ORIE: It is a suitable time to have a break. Could you
7 tell us how much more time you would need after the break?
8 MR. MacDONALD: I would hope 30 minutes, Your Honours, but it may
9 stretch to 45.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then there is no need to keep the next
11 witness on standby.
12 Witness, we'll take a break of 20 minutes. We would like to see
13 you back after the break.
14 [The witness stands down]
15 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at quarter to 2.00.
16 --- Recess taken at 1.27 p.m.
17 --- On resuming at 1.48 p.m.
18 JUDGE ORIE: You are just to be ready that you're standing or is
19 there anything that you would like to address, Mr. MacDonald?
20 MR. MacDONALD: There is one matter that I would like to address,
21 Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 MR. MacDONALD: Just for Your Honours's information, I would not
24 seek to tender the document that we were discussing just before the
25 break, 31406.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
2 [The witness takes the stand]
3 MR. MacDONALD:
4 Q. Witness, if I can remain with May 1992. You say in your
5 statement other companies were formed in the Rogatica municipality, one
6 in Kozici and one in Borike. Who was in command of the company in Kozici
7 when it was formed?
8 A. Spiro Pavlovski, I think was his name, was commander in Kozici.
9 And in Borike that was a unit the size of a battalion - I made a mistake
10 there - and it was under a direct command of the TO commander.
11 Q. And you state that at some point a brigade was formed from all
12 the units in Rogatica. What date did that take place?
13 A. I cannot recall the date. It is true that a brigade was formed
14 after the TO became part of the Army of Republika Srpska, but I cannot
15 remember the day.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. MacDonald.
17 You said the Borike unit, size of a battalion. It was under a
18 direct command of the TO commander. Who was that?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was Mr. Rajko Kusic.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
21 Please proceed.
22 MR. MacDONALD: I would now like to discuss a document from the
23 1st Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade.
24 Q. Before I request it be called up, the Rogatica Brigade was
25 renamed to the Podrinje Brigade in late 1992; is that correct?
1 A. I think it was called exactly the 1st Podrinje Light Brigade.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. MacDONALD: Can the Prosecution --
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Did the name change in late 1992; is that
5 correct? That was also part of the question.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Believe me, I cannot remember at
7 the moment. I don't think so. I think the name remained the same.
8 Light brigade.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
10 You may continue.
11 MR. MacDONALD: I'm obliged, Your Honour.
12 Can the Prosecution please have 65 ter number 31402. If we can
13 move to the second page of the document in both languages.
14 Q. Now, Witness, this is a document dated 23rd November, 1994. It's
15 been sent to the Drina Corps command from Rajko Kusic, who is identified
16 as a commander of the 1st Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade. It concerns
17 an update to the list of officers in that brigade, and it will be
18 referring back to 1992.
19 MR. MacDONALD: If we can please move to page 3 in both
21 Q. And, Witness, what I'm interested, and here are the columns along
22 the top. I believe we see name, rank, date, place, and municipality of
24 MR. MacDONALD: And if we can scroll along to the right in the
25 B/C/S version.
1 Q. Almost in the middle of your page, a column that states "joined
2 VRS on." Can you see those columns, Witness, or would you like the B/C/S
3 made bigger?
4 A. Believe me, my sight is so bad. I can't find anything that you
5 made reference to.
6 Q. Perhaps we can try and make it bigger, the column. Does that
7 help you, Witness?
8 A. I can't see anything. Now I can see.
9 Q. And would you agree that it's a name, then rank, and then to the
10 right of the page date, place, and municipality of birth?
11 A. Yes. This is birth, identification number, date and place of
13 MR. MacDONALD: And if we can scroll to the right in the
14 document, please. Slightly further. Further to the right, sorry. If we
15 keep scrolling. If that's -- yes, if we can hold it there, please.
16 Q. The last full column on the right, Witness, am I right in saying
17 the title of that is "Joined VRS on"?
18 A. Yes, that's what it says.
19 MR. MacDONALD: If we can go fully back to the left. And my
20 thanks to the court assistants for scrolling back and forth.
21 Q. The first name is Rajko Kusic. Do you see that there?
22 A. Yes, I do.
23 MR. MacDONALD: If we can go back to the column "Joined VRS on."
24 Q. And that states the 20th of May, 1992, doesn't it, Witness?
25 A. That is correct.
1 MR. MacDONALD: And if we can once again scroll back to the left.
2 Q. If I can take you to the second name, one Milovan Lelek. Do you
3 know who that was?
4 A. Yes, I do.
5 Q. And who is he, Witness?
6 A. That was the man whom I replaced on the 30th of November, 1993,
7 at Borike, who had taken over the position of chief of staff of the
8 Rogatica Brigade from Mile Vujic.
9 MR. MacDONALD: If we can scroll back to the column "Joined VRS
10 on," please.
11 Q. And it states that he joined the VRS on 20th of May, 1992, as
12 well; doesn't it?
13 A. Yes, it does.
14 MR. MacDONALD: If we can move to page 4 in the B/C/S and page 6
15 in the English, please.
16 With Your Honours' leave, I would simply ask the B/C/S be put on
17 the screen and we perform the same operation as we did for the initial
18 two names.
19 I'm looking for number 22, which is at the bottom.
20 Q. Witness, number 22, is that your name that appears there?
21 A. Yes. That's my name.
22 MR. MacDONALD: And if we scroll along to the right, please.
23 Q. Under the column "Joined VRS ...," it says 20 May, 1992; is that
25 A. Correct.
1 Q. And, Witness, is this document accurate? Did you join the VRS on
2 the 20th of May, 1992?
3 A. According to the certificates that I provided from the draft
4 office say that as of the 20th of April I was member of the TO Rogatica,
5 and then as of 20th of May, 1992, I was a member of the Army Republika
6 Srpska. Therefore, I think this is accurate.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 MR. MacDONALD: If I can move on to the last chronological piece
9 I intend to tackle.
10 Q. You state in paragraph 15 of your statement that Rajko Kusic was
11 your immediate superior throughout the war. Until what date were you
12 subordinated to Rajko Kusic?
13 A. Until the 30th of June, 1995 -- sorry, 1996.
14 Q. Did you remain on the territory of Rogatica municipality
15 throughout -- well, until 1996?
16 A. Yes, I remained there in Rogatica until 1996 and further on.
17 MR. MacDONALD: Your Honours, with thanks to my colleague, I
18 would seek to tender the document 31402.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Document 31402 receives number P6815,
21 Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
23 MR. MacDONALD: I'm obliged.
24 Q. Witness, I'd now like to address a few statements you make in
25 your statement. You state that there were two collection centres in
1 Rogatica municipality, and that's at paragraph 12 of your statement. For
2 the sake of clarity, do you accept there could have been more of these
3 centres and that you were unaware of their existence?
4 A. I believe that there were only two, only two centres. The
5 Veljko Vlahovic secondary school and the Rogatica agricultural compound.
6 Q. The second one that you refer to, is that more commonly known as
8 A. It used to be an agricultural compound that was empty. It
9 belonged to Agrokombinat and yes, its popular name was, indeed, Rasadnik.
10 I suppose that it's because it used to be a nursery.
11 MR. MacDONALD: I'm obliged, Your Honour. Can the Prosecution
12 please have P06774.
13 Q. I am happy to read out the relevant parts to you, Witness. This
14 is from Rajko Kusic on the 30th of November, 1992, to the municipal
15 assembly of Rogatica.
16 MR. MacDONALD: In the second paragraph in the English,
17 Your Honours, about halfway down the page. It states -- sorry, in the
18 middle of the first paragraph, Your Honours. My apology.
19 Q. "With your approval we have gathered civilians at the secondary
20 school, church centre, and DP/socially owned enterprise/ Ergela in
21 Rogatica. In accordance with the circumstances we were providing them
22 with the same food as soldiers on the line had three times a day."
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please slow down while reading.
24 MR. MacDONALD: My apologies.
25 Q. Witness, this is your commander providing a report at the end of
1 November 1992 and he is referring to other centres in Rogatica
2 municipality. Do you accept there were other centres and you were
3 unaware of their existence?
4 A. If I may be allowed to explain.
5 Q. Certainly, yes.
6 A. A reference is made in here in this letter to the church centre
7 in Rogatica. I was aware of it but it was only a reception centre. As
8 far as I know, people didn't say there. They would be referred to the
9 school immediately after just having been received there.
10 Q. Very well.
11 MR. MacDONALD: Can the Prosecution please have P02229 on the
13 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness also explain Ergela or --
14 MR. MacDONALD: Oh, indeed, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You told us about a church but what about the
16 socially owned Ergela company, I take it, in Rogatica?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's the company Agrokombinat in
18 Rasadnik. I don't know where the term "Ergela" comes from. It used to
19 be a cattle farm sometime in the past.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. So you consider it likely that it's actually
21 the same but under a different name.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely so.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. MacDonald.
24 MR. MacDONALD: I'm obliged, Your Honours.
25 Q. Witness, the document in front of you now is a report from the
1 Republika Srpska Ministry of the Interior public security station in
2 Rogatica, dated 17 June, 2004. I will read the relevant parts to you,
4 MR. MacDONALD: For Your Honours in the first paragraph just
5 after the date 2nd of June, 2004, it states:
6 "The information was gathered regarding collection centres where
7 persons of Bosniak nationality stayed in the region of Rogatica."
8 Q. Witness, it then goes on to enumerate five such centres including
9 the former nursery-garden, the building of the malt-house factory, the
10 building of the high school, CJB Rogatica, and the building named the
11 rectory. Now, Witness, if I can ask you again: Do you accept there were
12 other collection centres in Rogatica other than the two that you were
13 aware of?
14 A. I don't know. Perhaps statements were taken from people when
15 they arrived. I'm aware of the secondary school centre, I'm aware of
16 this Rasadnik place.
17 Q. So, Witness, yes, you don't know about these other collection
18 centres. That's what you're saying?
19 A. I don't know.
20 Q. Very quickly with regards to the facility of Rasadnik. I'm right
21 in saying you never observed the conditions, rather, in which detainees
22 were held; is that correct?
23 A. Yes, I entered the facility on several occasions, but I did not
24 enter the area where people were kept. I just entered the office of the
25 manager of this facility.
1 Q. And with regard to the school, you've told us you're aware there
2 were sanitation facilities there. But, Witness, you have no idea of the
3 conditions in which detainees were held there either, do you?
4 A. I know that there was always water during the war because the
5 town was supplied from a source which was under the control of the
6 Territorial Defence of Rogatica municipality. I really didn't enter
7 those premises in order to see whether there was water or not, whether
8 there were facilities working or not.
9 Q. If I can move on, then. When you passed through Rogatica town,
10 Witness, did you never see detainees performing forced labour such as
11 chopping wood or cleaning up rubbish?
12 A. I know that detainees volunteered to work, to collect firewood,
13 to work on private farms, because they would receive better food. They
14 would even be given clothes and cigarettes. They volunteered for work.
15 I never knew that they were forced to work.
16 Q. I'll move on from that topic.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Could I just ask one question. You said that they
18 would receive better food. Now you explained this before, that they got
19 all this same food as all the soldiers got, three times a day. What was
20 better than?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If they worked in private
22 households, if they sowed potatoes or something, in private homes food
23 was better than from big cauldrons, and they also received cigarettes,
24 and, yes, they normally received the same food as all of us. But in
25 private homes, food was better.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, where does this knowledge come from? How do
2 you know exactly, for example, whether those detained in the
3 Veljko Vlahovic school would voluntarily have reported for work? How do
4 you know that? Of course, the Chamber has heard evidence about the
5 situations in those institutions. At least, therefore, I'm wondering
6 where your information comes from?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those people came to my line and
8 they prepared fuel wood there, and I know what they were saying, that
9 they were much better off if they were out working in the field than if
10 they stayed in the facility.
11 JUDGE ORIE: So they worked close to or in any connection with
12 the unit you were in at the front line?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not understand your question.
14 Could you please rephrase or repeat.
15 JUDGE ORIE: You said those people came to my line. May I take
16 it that that is the front line or confrontation line?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The defence line. The defence
19 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. And they had to work close to the defence
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They did not have to do anything.
22 They expressed a desire to work because nobody forced them to work, not
23 on my line, and they never worked on the line itself. They worked in the
24 depth of the territory, perhaps 200 metres or so away from the combat
25 line -- I apologise, from the Defence line.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
2 MR. MacDONALD: Yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: By the way, I see that it's time for -- to adjourn.
4 And could you give us an indication as to how much more time you
5 would need?
6 MR. MacDONALD: I think between probably around six or seven
7 minutes, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, could you give us an indication as to how
11 much time you would need as matters stand now?
12 MR. LUKIC: I am calculating, probably I will need six, seven
13 minutes too.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, we are considering whether or not we
15 could conclude the testimony of this witness which would then take
16 another 10 to 15 minutes.
17 MR. LUKIC: Probably 15 to 20.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Fifteen to 20. Perhaps it's wiser to adjourn for
19 the day. But then I take it that the parties will be very disciplined
20 tomorrow and not think very early in the morning so therefore there are
21 hours left.
22 Witness, before we adjourn for the day I would like to instruct
23 you that you should not speak to anyone or communicate in whatever other
24 way with whomever about your testimony, whether that is testimony you've
25 given today or whether that is testimony that you are still about to give
1 tomorrow. Is that clear?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand, yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Then we would like to see you back tomorrow morning
4 at 9.30. You may now follow the usher.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
6 [The witness stands down]
7 JUDGE ORIE: We adjourn for the day and we will resume tomorrow,
8 Tuesday, the 14th of October, 9.30 in the morning, in this same
9 courtroom, I.
10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.18 p.m.,
11 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 14th day
12 of October, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.