1 Wednesday, 15 October 2014
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
9 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 Any preliminary matters?
12 Mr. Stojanovic.
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. I
14 just wanted to use the opportunity to say that the next witness,
15 Radojca Mladjenovic, would require more than 30 minutes that we had
16 originally asked for. Therefore, we would kindly ask your indulgence to
17 grant us 45 minutes to examine that witness.
18 JUDGE ORIE: We'll consider that, Mr. Stojanovic. But let me
19 just have a look. I have Mladjenovic not as the next witness. I have
20 Mr. Ujic as the next witness. Yes.
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honours.
22 The witness who comes after Mr. Ujic is Mr. Mladjenovic.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's then clear. We'll consider it.
24 Mr. Weber.
25 MR. WEBER: Just since we're addressing time matters, I'm still
1 going to try to do my cross-examination on the current witness in two and
2 a half hours. However, I did review. Since there was one associated
3 exhibit that was not tendered yesterday, I may need to put some other
4 things into the record which might carry me slightly over and I just want
5 to alert the Chamber as to that since I had anticipated that that
6 associated exhibit was going to be tendered.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 MR. WEBER: But I'm still going to try to maintain my time
10 JUDGE ORIE: That's appreciated. The proof of the pudding is in
11 the eating.
12 Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom? I think the
13 usher is already trying to find him.
14 [The witness takes the stand]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Maksimovic.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, I'd like to remind you that you
18 are still bound by the solemn declaration you have given at the beginning
19 of your testimony, and I would also like to remind you that you do not
20 appear as a teacher -- no --
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot hear you. Can --
22 JUDGE ORIE: One second.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't hear very well. Can you
24 put up the sound?
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You'll be assisted. Is it better now?
1 THE WITNESS: Okay.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's okay now.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Then I repeat what I said, that you are still bound
5 by the solemn declaration you have given at the beginning of your
6 testimony. And I would also like to remind you that yesterday I made a
7 few observations about your role in this courtroom; that is, not a
8 professor, a teacher, a person who gives exegesis of texts written by
9 others, but that we expect you to give us the information on matters
10 you've observed yourself, you heard, you've seen, et cetera, rather than
11 more general observations.
12 WITNESS: RATOMIR MAKSIMOVIC [Resumed]
13 [Witness answered through interpreter]
14 Mr. Ivetic will now continue his examination-in-chief.
15 Mr. Ivetic.
16 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
17 Examination by Mr. Ivetic: [Continued]
18 Q. Sir, yesterday we left off talking about your encounters with
19 General Mladic. I would like to ask you based upon these encounters,
20 your observations and knowledge of General Mladic, and your military
21 background, how would you assess his attitude towards warfare and the
23 A. More or less all of us, including General Mladic, fosters
24 military values and was raised on traditional Serbian officers. I have
25 never heard anything bad about the enemy side from General Mladic,
1 nothing defamatory, nothing derogatory. I personally believe that his
2 experience of the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina was very difficult. But
3 he had to place himself at the head of the Serbian army in order to avoid
4 a repetition of the past which was not glorious.
5 General Mladic acquired those values that I would like to share
6 with you. If the Trial Chamber will allow me, I would like to tell you
7 what are the values of a Serbian general and a Serbian officer. I
8 believe that he is a rare --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, that goes beyond the question, to tell us
10 what -- you were asked for an impression on the basis of your personal
11 encounters with General Mladic.
12 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
13 MR. IVETIC:
14 Q. Based on your encounters with General Mladic, which particular
15 values did he seem to embody?
16 A. The general is a very capable man, very energetic man, very
17 modest man. He never asked for any privileges in his life while he was
18 in command of the Serbian army. He never enjoyed any special treatment.
19 The proof of that is that he ate the same food as everybody else. He
20 visited the troops whenever he could, the troops on positions. He
21 imparted fatherly advice. I observed all that.
22 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat the last sentence.
23 MR. IVETIC:
24 Q. Could you please repeat the last sentence of your answer as the
25 interpreters did not catch it.
1 A. I noticed all that when I met with General Mladic, what I just
2 told you.
3 Q. And in terms of the values that seemed to be embodied and
4 expressed by General Mladic, could you tell us a little bit more about
5 his attitude towards the opposing side, the enemy side? How did he treat
7 A. I can only talk about the relationship between General Mladic and
8 the Sarajevo Romanija Corps and his attitude and his -- and what he told
9 the Sarajevo Romanija Corps about the enemy side. The most important
10 thing is this: There was never a suggestion that only the Muslim
11 territory should be attacked, the settlements populated be the Muslim
12 population. An example for that is Butmir and Hrasnica. Those
13 settlements are inhabited predominantly by a Muslim population. When I
14 visited Famos in 1993 and Famos was on the line of contact with Hrasnica
15 and Muslim positions, the general manager, Berijan [phoen], who is now
16 unfortunately is deceased, told me that they had allegedly visited
17 General Mladic and asked him to launch an attack to repel Muslims a bit
18 further away from Famos. On that occasion, General Mladic said that it
19 would never occurred to him to do that because it was their territory.
20 And now in hindsight I would say that that was an exceptionally fair
22 And this shows that the respect for the Muslim population in that
23 area was never an issue. As far as the other aspects of the work of the
24 Sarajevo Romanija Corps are concerned, General Mladic trusted the corps
25 and its commanders. He knew that the Serbian population from Vogosca to
1 Ilidza and Hadzici or Vojkovici and all the villages at the foot of
2 Trebevic were doing nothing else but defending their own households,
3 their own land, and that's all. Nothing else. He knew that that was the
4 biggest motive of their fight, to protect those villages.
5 General Mladic on two occasions assisted the corps the first time
6 and the second time when he made sure that some companies arrived from
7 Krajina to man the combat positions on the Vogosca-Rajlovac axis. That
8 was of a short duration. Otherwise, he had full trust in the
9 Sarajevo Romanija Corps and its combat capabilities.
10 And another thing that I would like to say about General Mladic.
11 There was a prevalent opinion that he was not well disposed towards
12 General Milosevic. On one occasion, General Milosevic invited me to his
13 office and he showed me the official grade written on his behalf by
14 General Mladic. The grade that General Mladic gave to General Milosevic
15 contained some 20 elements. General Mladic gave General Milosevic all
16 fives. He gave him only one grade four. And General Milosevic said he
17 was delighted when he said that -- he said that General Mladic obviously
18 respected everything that General Milosevic was doing in his effort to
19 preserve the Serbian territories in the Sarajevo sector.
20 In other words, it is not true. Those were just rumours that
21 there was any love lost between the two of them.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, you skillfully circumvented my effort to
23 get the witness back to the question and to his personal observations.
24 I've now listened for five minutes where the witness dealt with a lot of
25 matters which are totally unrelated to the question. If you want this
1 Chamber to take your request for time seriously, then please keep better
2 control of the witness.
3 Please proceed.
4 MR. IVETIC: I would like to --
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: I have a question for clarification, please.
6 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: If you don't mind.
8 Sir, at page 5, line 9, you said or you're recorded as saying:
9 "There was never a suggestion that only the Muslim territory
10 would be attacked."
11 Now, my question to you is: Which other ethnic territory did he
12 say must be attacked?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Is this a question for me?
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Of course.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No territories were ever attacked,
16 not even outside of the zone of Sarajevo Romanija Corps. I'm not aware
17 of that. But he respected --
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: What did you mean --
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- the territories of which --
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, sorry. You've answered my question.
21 You've answered my question. Thank you so much. What did you mean by
22 not only the Muslim territories would be attacked?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I may have misspoken.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: If you have misspoken, thank you so much.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I meant the territories inhabited
1 by Muslims.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
4 MR. IVETIC: Thank you. If we could return to D686 MFI, and
5 page 2 in the Serbian and page 2 to 3 in the English, paragraph 6.
6 Q. Here you talk of the advantage of the ABiH 2.5 or 3:1 over the
7 SRK. Given your military training and given the odds, was it ever even
8 feasible for the Sarajevo Romanija Corps to try to take over Sarajevo
10 A. In principle, when cities are being conquered, the ratio of
11 forces should be 3:1. In other words, the attacker has to have the
12 strength three times greater than the defence. In this case, this was
13 not the case. Therefore, there was no reason. There was not any
14 indication that the Sarajevo Romanija Corps would launch an attack and
15 commit suicide in that way. Fire from Sarajevo did not have to be open
16 on our positions, and then we returned fire and there was a lot of
17 collateral damage. In other words, the initiative was in the hands of
18 the 1st Corps which was prevalent and its troops were better rested and
19 in a better shape than the troops of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps.
20 MR. IVETIC: If we could turn to paragraph 8, which is on the
21 same page in both versions.
22 Q. Here you talk of Muslim propaganda to portray Sarajevo as
23 St. Petersburg. What more can you tell us about your personal
24 observations in this regard dating from the time in your detention at
25 hotel Europa?
1 A. That's the 3rd May onwards. I heard on the radio, there was a
2 lot of propaganda that in Dobrinja Serbs had killed 17 children. While I
3 was in Europa hotel, I recorded 42 explosions in the space of one hour on
4 a rock above Bistrik. I recorded all those on a map, 42 explosions.
5 They should have portrayed the situation as Sarajevo having been under a
6 constant cannonade of Serbian forces. The objective of the propaganda
7 was to tarnish the enemy side as much as possible, to boost the combat
8 readiness of its own forces, to engage the -- their own people to support
9 their forces, to make the recruitment efforts easier.
10 In any case, there was a lot of propaganda about Serbs who cut
11 off Muslim hands and then played football with them. And there was
12 another thing that is something that is commonly heard in wars, that
13 fingers are made into necklaces, and so on and so forth.
14 I had a personal encounter in Europa hotel with a high
15 representative of Muslims who happened to be there. I would like his
16 name to be protected, Mr. President. I will tell you who he was but I
17 don't want to say that in public session.
18 Q. Does this relate to my question as to your personal observations
19 of efforts of propaganda to portray Sarajevo as St. Petersburg?
20 A. That the city was encircled, which it wasn't. I studied the --
21 Q. Let's -- let's go back.
22 A. -- the blockade of Leningrad, but Sarajevo had absolutely nothing
23 whatsoever to do with Leningrad.
24 Q. We are pressed for time. I want you to please clarify for us.
25 When you say 42 explosions were -- were those explosions on the same
1 rock? Were they in a different area? I don't understand your answer in
2 that regard. Could you please explain that for us.
3 A. I could see that all of those explosions happened in the same
4 place. Then I started plotting those places on a map and they repeated
5 in the same place. There will be a cloud of dust and then an explosion,
6 a cloud of dust and then an explosion. And it is very important for me
7 to tell you about my meeting, and I would kindly ask you to go into
8 private session because I don't want to say the person's name in
9 open session. May I?
10 Q. Well --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Is that about the same high representative you --
12 that happened to be in the Europa hotel? Is that what you want to tell
13 us about?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any specific reason why that person could
16 not be called by his name, if it's a he?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, he was a businessman. He was
18 the head of state of commodity reserves. I don't know whether he
19 returned to Sarajevo or not. I don't know. But he was a high official.
20 He informed my family ...
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He informed my family that I was
23 being held hostage in hotel Europa, that man. But I wanted to say
24 something else, Mr. President. We spoke --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Let's take it one by one. You wanted to tell us
1 about a meeting with this high representative. You asked for
2 private session. We have listened to the reasons you have given and the
3 Chamber finds no reason to hear that specific portion in private session.
4 So please tell us about the meeting and tell us with whom you met.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was not a meeting. I just
6 happened to meet him in hotel Europa where he was because he couldn't go
7 to his apartment. We spoke. He is an intellectual. And then he
8 informed my family that I was being held hostage in hotel Europa. But
9 this is what he told me --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But tell us first.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Microphone not activated]...
12 gone -- he was the director of state commodity reserves, Ibro Prses. I
13 have his business card. I'm sorry, I did not bring it from home. I can
14 send it to you. And this is what he told me.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Tell us what this man -- how do you spell his last
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] P, as in Pittsburgh, R as in
18 Rostok, Ibro Prses.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Please proceed. If it's relevant, it is
20 about portraying Sarajevo as St. Petersburg. That was what the question
21 was about. Could you tell us what, in that respect, he said to you?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He didn't speak to me about that.
23 He told me something else which I believed to be true.
24 JUDGE ORIE: If it relates in any way to any question Mr. Ivetic
25 will put to you, then you may raise that. But at this moment that
1 question was focused on propaganda portraying Sarajevo as St. Petersburg.
2 Mr. Ivetic, I leave it in your hands how to proceed.
3 MR. IVETIC: Well, I would like to move to my next topic and then
4 after that see, if we have time remaining, then we can return to this.
5 But I would like to move to the next topic which I would like to explore
6 with the witness.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But before you move to this other topic, I have a
8 question for the witness.
9 MR. IVETIC: Go ahead, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Witness Maksimovic, you said that you had a map
11 where you plotted the location of explosions. From whom did you get this
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was not a map. I didn't have a
14 map. I recorded the explosions on a simple piece of paper because I
15 wasn't allowed to have anything else and later on I tore up this piece of
16 paper and threw away the pencil, because I was a hostage. I was ready to
17 condemned all of this --
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I stop you. I only asked about the map. You
19 said on page 8 -- no, page 9, line 1:
20 "I recorded all those on a map, 42 explosions."
21 This is what you said. And later on you repeated that:
22 "Then I started plotting those places on a map and they repeated
23 in the same place."
24 This is page 10, lines 1 and 2.
25 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter may have misunderstood the
1 witness and apologies for that.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm looking at this locations
3 through my window. There was no map. There was just an ordinary piece
4 of paper which I later tore.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. Thank you. The -- it is clarified
6 now because the interpreters may have misunderstood you. Thank you very
8 JUDGE ORIE: Then I have one very short question: Where exactly
9 is hotel Europa located?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Europa hotel is on the edges of
11 the town, precisely between Bascarsija and Sarajevo downtown. And this
12 hotel was donated by a Serb. His name was Jeftanovic and he was the one
13 who built this hotel.
14 JUDGE ORIE: What's the distance as the crow flies to Bistrik?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, almost a kilometre.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. --
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 800 to 900 metres.
18 MR. WEBER: Judge, if it assists, I don't think there is going to
19 be much dispute about where hotel Europa is located. And I -- if it
20 assists the Chamber we can find it on a map, I'm sure.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if the parties agree with that, but in order
22 to understand fully the testimony of the witness, of course, for us it
23 would be important to know what he observed from where exactly.
24 Please proceed.
25 MR. IVETIC: I believe we may have already some evidence on the
1 record from a protected witness as to the location of that hotel.
2 JUDGE ORIE: It may be. I hope you'll forgive me for not having
3 every single line in my head.
4 MR. IVETIC: I was only reminded of it by my colleague as well,
5 so I fall into the same boat as Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Please proceed.
7 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
8 Q. Now, I would like to move to another topic, sir. How were the
9 relations with the Bosnian Croats, that is between the HVO and the
10 Army of Republika Srpska, in the zone of responsibility of the
11 Sarajevo Romanija Corps?
12 A. I am going to talk about what I was personally involved in and
13 what I experienced. On the 10th or 11th of June, General Mladic sent me
14 to Ilidza. I accepted unwillingly but I obeyed his order. He even
15 offered me the post of the brigade commander, which I rejected since I
16 was not an appropriate officer for that. I wasn't greedy to grab the
17 post and then make some foolish mistake.
18 When I arrived there on the 11th of July, I mean at Ilidza, I
19 inspected the positions from Hadzici and Kiseljak leading to us. I had
20 an encounter with an HVO representative. It happened accidentally in --
21 on the pass called Kobiljaca where the house was of another man. The HVO
22 representative's last name was Bosnjak. We had a conversation and I told
23 him that Kiseljak had never created problems for Serbs in Sarajevsko
24 Polje and that they should continue in the same spirit and that we don't
25 need to open a front line with them.
1 I don't know how I would have faired if somebody from the higher
2 command heard my statement. It doesn't mean that they heeded my advice
3 but I had a very frank and sincere conversation with him. Further on
4 concerning the relations between the HVO and the SRK, it's something that
5 I didn't have any impact on.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
7 MR. WEBER: Well, the answer stands, I guess, now, but we did
8 have an objection on the broadening of the scope of this topic based on
9 the lack of notice previously. I let the initial thing go because we did
10 say that we would be okay with the witness talking about his direct
11 experience which he had been doing up until the last comment.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, I don't think we have to -- an
13 observation was made by Mr. Weber. If you do not disagree with him, you
14 are invited to continue.
15 MR. IVETIC: I'm trying to find the last comment that he's
16 talking about that goes beyond the witness's personal knowledge. I'm not
17 locating it in the transcript. So I'm a little bit confused by his
18 comment, to be quite frank.
19 MR. WEBER: I rose because when the witness started to say:
20 "Further on concerning the relations between the HVO and the
21 SRK ..."
22 It appeared he was broadening from his experience to more general
24 JUDGE ORIE: We do not know yet whether he did or he did not.
25 That's when you interrupted him. It could well be. It could also be
1 that he would have stayed within the realm of his own observations.
2 Mr. Ivetic, but you're reminded of what apparently seems to have been
3 agreed upon between the parties.
4 MR. IVETIC: I know of no such agreement, Your Honour, with the
6 JUDGE ORIE: You didn't -- you didn't contradict Mr. Weber
7 yesterday when he said that he would allow you to continue as long as you
8 stayed within the certain matters, and I thought that that was agreed.
9 But, if not, there is no agreement and Mr. Weber will be on his feet
10 whenever he thinks that it goes beyond --
11 MR. IVETIC: That's fine. I --
12 JUDGE ORIE: He expects you to -- okay. Then --
13 MR. IVETIC: And again, I don't think we've gone beyond anything
14 that was in the proofing statement. I --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's -- let's move on.
16 MR. IVETIC: I'm really confused by this because I believe that
17 this was precisely put -- set forth in the proofing statement which was
18 sent according to the same rules that the Prosecution used.
19 JUDGE ORIE: I invite you --
20 MR. IVETIC: So why do we have different rules? The Prosecution
21 proofing noting was --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. -- Mr. --
23 MR. IVETIC: The proofing note was sent in advance of the
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, I'm now trying for a couple of lines to
1 invite you to continue and we'll act as we see how the matter develops.
2 Please proceed.
3 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
4 Q. Sir, did you have any personal involvement and personal knowledge
5 of any other interactions with the Bosnian Croats and/or the HVO in the
6 zone of responsibility of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps during the course
7 of your deployment during the war? And if so, could you tell us about
9 A. So let us settle this: That was the only contact I had with the
10 HVO at Kobiljaca. There were no other contacts. However, in November of
11 1993, following General Galic's order who was in Vogosca at the time with
12 his staff, when the HVO commander from Kiseljak by the name of Rajic came
13 seeking assistance from General Galic and permission for the Croatian
14 population from Central Bosnia, that is to say between Kakanj, Kraljeva,
15 Suceska, Breza, and Vares, to come to our territory - specifically Nisic
16 Viseran [phoen] - General Galic probably had approval from General Mladic
17 to accommodate the Croat's request, and then Rajic said that he needed a
18 high-ranking officer in order to try to console the people who were
19 frightened to go out and they were anxious.
20 General Galic ordered me to go along with Rajic to the Nisic
21 plateau, or rather towards Vares, and said that I should act as a
22 guarantor that nothing would happen to the population. We went down to
23 the village of Dastansko. The sight was terrible. People were
24 terrified. It was extremely cold. There were several thousands of
25 people from Vares and other places. They reached the Nisic plateau in
1 the area of Okruglica village.
2 Rajic and I -- or, rather, I asked Rajic to invite his battalion
3 commanders so that I can converse with them.
4 Q. If we can take one step backwards. You still have not told us
5 the circumstances that were in place why these people needed to be
6 accommodated and why you had to go out there. What was going on that
7 these people needed to be accommodated on SRK territory?
8 MR. WEBER: Objection. Foundation. If it's directly related to
9 this and he was personally told something, that's fine. If there is a
10 foundation for it and he was informed of why in direct relation of this,
11 fine. But the question is overly broad and there has been no foundation
12 established as of yet.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, if there is a risk of the witness going
14 beyond his personal observation, could you --
15 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
16 JUDGE ORIE: I was not asking you at this moment anything,
17 Mr. Maksimovic. Could you phrase the question in such a way that that
18 risk is limited as is possible in the present circumstances?
19 MR. IVETIC:
20 Q. Sir, if we could limit ourselves to your personal knowledge at
21 that time - that is to say, when you went with Mr. Rajic to meet these
22 people, these Bosnian Croat civilians - what was your personal knowledge
23 of what was going on such that they had to be met by you and accommodated
24 on SRK territory?
25 A. They quite simply fled the Muslim offensive that was being
1 launched in the area and hence they crossed over to our territory. In
2 other words, they abandoned Vares and other places due to the Muslim
3 offensive and in fear of retaliation. This is what I directly knew and I
4 know about it. They managed to withstand the offensive for a long time
5 but ultimately they were defeated. They crossed over to our territory
6 and the political leadership gave them permission. I was there to
7 operationalise this decision and I acted as a person to whom the Croats
8 can appeal if they had misunderstandings with someone else. Eventually
9 they accepted that and they left to various places including to Serbia
10 over Croatia. As far as I know, there were no problems relating to their
11 evacuation across our territory.
12 Q. What can you tell us, again based upon your personal knowledge
13 and direct involvement, about what happened to the Bosnian Croat soldiers
14 from these villages around Vares? What did they do? Where did they go?
15 A. They agreed to cover a 6-kilometre-long front line to fill in the
16 gaps that they had made, and that we all prevent the approach of Muslims
17 to the Nisic plateau. They remained at these positions for seven months
18 until, I think, June of 1994. They had agreed to that.
19 Q. If I could ask a clarification you said in your response, "And
20 that we all prevent the approach of Muslims." Who is the "we" in this
21 scenario? Who was working together to prevent the approach of Muslims to
22 say Nisic plateau?
23 A. Well, we were the Army of Republika Srpska and now we were
24 reinforced by about 1200 Croats from their army who were holding these
25 positions facing Selacke [phoen] mountain which was a gap because they
1 were in Vares. Once they left Vares, it opened up a door for the Muslims
2 to attack the Nisic plateau and we had to defend that because our
3 survival depended on that. The Nisic "visoravan" was an extremely
4 important feature in terms of operational issues. We kept it under our
5 control the whole time because there was Serbian villages, Okruglica,
6 Perkovici, Vacici [as interpreted], and so on.
7 Q. Ship-of-the-line Captain Maksimovic, on behalf of my client and
8 the rest of my team, I thank you for answering my questions.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.
10 Mr. Maksimovic, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Weber.
11 You'll find Mr. Weber to your right. Mr. Weber is counsel for the
13 You may proceed, Mr. Weber.
14 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honours.
15 Cross-examination by Mr. Weber:
16 Q. Good morning, sir.
17 A. Good morning.
18 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit D689 for
19 the witness.
20 Q. Mr. Maksimovic, coming up will be a document associated to
21 paragraph 70 of your statement. It is a list of officers at the
22 Pale RKM. First, can you please confirm for us that this document refers
23 to the officers at the Pale rear command post of the
24 2nd Military District in April of 1992?
25 A. I have memorised some of the family names. There is no reason
1 not to believe that this is an accurate list, that was a forward command
2 post in the tourist hotel at Pale. I arrived there --
3 Q. Sir --
4 A. -- towards the evening of 22nd April.
5 Q. Sir, could you please listen to my questions carefully. I'm
6 going to try to go orderly and efficiently and ask you very precise
7 questions. We see it was called a Pale RKM. The RKM stands for rear
8 command post; correct?
9 A. Reserve command post is also a forward command post, but later on
10 during the war the tourist hotel was used as a rear facility --
11 Q. Sir, sir --
12 A. -- of the corps.
13 Q. -- I'm going to go orderly here.
14 A. But that was not the case at the time. That was not a rear
15 facility at the time, only later.
16 Q. Okay. You were assigned this command post between the 22nd and
17 the 30th of April, 1992; correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. These were the officers you were assigned to the command post
20 with; correct?
21 A. No. They were already there when I arrived.
22 Q. Directing your attention to the third name on the list, it is
23 Branko Filipovic. Is it correct that Branko Filipovic was in charge of
24 the operations staff at the command post?
25 A. Yes. Branko Filipovic. He was.
1 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P03795 for
2 the witness.
3 Q. Sir, coming up before you is a 6 April 1992, 2nd Military
4 District RKM operations record from Branko Filipovic. The first
5 paragraph states:
6 "The overall activity of this part of the Command has focused
7 primarily on monitoring the situation in the course of ... operations in
8 and around Sarajevo. In addition, we have continued to work on troop
9 deployments and we have organised communications."
10 Does this report accurately represent the responsibilities of the
11 officers at the Pale RKM in April of 1992?
12 A. I cannot comment on it. I arrived on the 22nd of April. By
13 nature of things, a larger operational command must have a reserve
14 command post. The main leader of that team was Colonel Brano Filipovic.
15 All I can tell you is that while I was there between the 22nd and the
16 30th, reports were coming in about operations all over Bosnia aimed
17 against JNA members.
18 Q. Sir, I'm trying to go orderly here.
19 A. Members --
20 Q. Just so -- before we get into different topics, were you --
21 MR. IVETIC: If I could perhaps clarify one thing.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 MR. IVETIC: The English translation has a word that is not in
24 the B/C/S original. This document does not mention troop deployments.
25 The deployments are in relation to communications.
1 MR. WEBER: Work on deployments. I will have it checked but I
2 see that there is maybe a notation that's added there.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, apparently you wanted to seek
4 confirmation or denial that this was an accurate description. The
5 witness said, I can't say because, but for the last ten days of April it
6 might be that he could answer the question.
7 MR. WEBER: Okay. That's what -- Your Honour, that was my next
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 MR. WEBER:
11 Q. Sir, were you personally involved in any of the activities that
12 are described in this document once you arrived at the Pale RKM?
13 A. No. Furthermore, the team there didn't take me seriously, my
14 being a naval officer. They didn't give me any tasks or assignments. I
15 was just sitting and listening to briefings without any participation in
17 Q. Toward the end of this report, it states:
18 "We have maintained constant contact and coordination of
19 operations with the Pale Crisis Staff."
20 Were you aware of this coordination of operations with the Pale
21 Crisis Staff during your time at the command post?
22 A. I spent eight days there. Crisis Staffs existed in every
23 municipality which is according to the law. Obviously, the naval
24 district tried to reduce as much as possible the scope of any combat
25 operations between --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Which -- I'm stopping you again. Would you please
2 answer to questions rather than to tell us whatever comes to your mind.
3 The question simply was whether you were aware of coordination of
4 operations with the Pale Crisis Staff during your time at the command
5 post. Were you or were you not?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Please, next question.
8 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 11089 for
9 the witness.
10 Q. Sir, coming up will be a 6 January 2000 "Nin" magazine article
11 entitle: "My Truth." This was previously shown to you during your
12 testimony in the Karadzic case. The article contains an interview
13 provided by General Kukanjac, the former commander of the
14 2nd Military District in Sarajevo.
15 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have page 3 of the B/C/S
16 and page 5 of the English translation.
17 Q. While we're turning to that, sir, do you recall being asked about
18 this article in the Karadzic case?
19 A. I don't recall being asked about this, although I personally know
20 Kukanjac. I spent three days with him at the command post.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, the question was whether you remember to
22 have been questioned about it. Not whether you knew Mr. Kukanjac
23 personally. I really have to again stress --
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember.
25 JUDGE ORIE: First of all, I have to stress that you shouldn't
1 interrupt me. But second, you are at risk that your testimony, which is
2 given and you are called as a witness by the Defence, that you are at
3 risk to affect the probative value by not answering questions. Could you
4 please keep that in mind. It's important for the Defence. It's
5 important for the Chamber to hear answers to questions rather than other
7 Mr. Weber, you have got an answer now.
8 MR. WEBER: Okay.
9 Q. Sir, then I'll go -- I'll go back through it with you. I'd like
10 to direct your attention to subparagraph (d) which is in the middle of
11 the page before you. This paragraph is in the part of the article where
12 General Kukanjac is discussing what he did since the beginning of 1992.
13 In this paragraph General Kukanjac states:
14 "When we realised what was being done and what was going to
15 happen, we began to pull out the entire mobile assets of the JNA in a
16 timely manner; in an endeavour by both officers and soldiers, employing
17 perfect organisation, we managed to pull out, preserve, and retain
18 everything; even if there had been cases of seizure by the enemy, we
19 would immediately make it up manifoldly; the Muslim-Croat horde never got
20 hold of a single plane, helicopter, tank, armoured personnel carrier,
21 gun, mortar, motor vehicle ...," and then there is an ellipse.
22 Do you see this portion of the article?
23 A. Yes, I do. I do.
24 Q. I put it to you that this information contradicts your evidence
25 relating to the weaponry left behind for the ABiH, and specifically what
1 you say in paragraph 66 of your statement which is that:
2 "JNA weapons stayed in the Viktor Bubanj, Marshal Tito,
3 2nd Military District command, and Jusuf Dzonlic barracks." Do you
5 A. I don't agree with that.
6 Q. Yeah.
7 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I tender this article into evidence.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Document 11089 receives number P6816,
10 Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
12 Witness, could I ask you about this same paragraph. You said JNA
13 weapons stayed in all these barracks including heavy weapons. Could you
14 be a bit more precise. What heavy weapons stayed in the Viktor Bubanj,
15 Marshal Tito, and the Jusuf Dzonlic command posts or barracks?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't say explicitly that things
17 stayed there, but they did. I don't know how much. I don't know what
18 quota [indiscernible]. As for what I stated, I base that on my stay at
19 the corps. I learned that from operative organs and the activities in
20 Sarajevo that were -- [In English] Okay.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I didn't ask you where you learned it. First of
22 all, I read your statement:
23 "JNA weapons stayed in all these barracks including heavy
24 weapons ..."
25 So that you didn't say that they stayed there is at least not in
1 line with your written statement. My question simply was: Including
2 heavy weapons, what heavy weapons if you know?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that they had 105-millimetre
4 howitzers as well as two or three tanks. I don't know any further
6 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Well, they stayed in these barracks, if I
7 understand you well, or is it that you say, We later learned that they
8 had these available?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In principles, those stayed there
10 and then there was activities which proved that that was the case.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Now, nothing stays anywhere in principle. Either
12 something stays somewhere or it doesn't stay somewhere. Do you mean to
13 say that you have no exact knowledge about it but that you assume or that
14 you conclude that they must have stayed there?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I conclude that the Marshal Tito
16 and other barracks were abandoned and they -- the people simply ran from
17 those and that they left combat assets behind.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You concluded that. You have no personal
19 knowledge, no personal observation of that?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
22 It's time for a break.
23 We take a break, Mr. Maksimovic. We would like to see you back
24 in 20 minutes.
25 THE WITNESS: Okay.
1 [The witness stands down]
2 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at 5 minutes to 11.00.
3 --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.
4 --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, perhaps needless to say but the portion
6 you put to the witness and suggested to him that there was a
7 contradiction, there is not necessarily a contradiction between the two
8 because if General Kukanjac says something about even if there had been
9 cases of seizure, it -- what the witness said does not exclude that these
10 were those cases.
11 [The witness takes the stand]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Well, now we have heard his later answers about his
13 knowledge about the matter, so there's no need. But please be careful in
14 suggesting or putting to a witness that there is a contradiction when the
15 text does not fully justify such a position.
16 MR. WEBER: I understand what Your Honour is saying and thank
17 you. I'm actually -- based on Your Honour's questions, I'll move to a
18 different topic.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --
20 MR. WEBER: And I was going to follow up on that with P4946 just
21 so the Chamber has the record which would further provide information on
22 that. So it was going to be a segue, but Your Honour established a lack
23 of personal knowledge, so I'm not going to further explore the topic.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed. It was also a more general --
25 MR. WEBER: Thank you.
1 JUDGE ORIE: -- observation.
2 Please proceed.
3 MR. WEBER:
4 Q. Mr. Maksimovic, I'm going to change topics with you now and I
5 want to discuss a figure you mention in paragraph 7 of your statement.
6 In your statement you state that the SRK had about 22.000 men. Is it
7 your evidence that the SRK never had more than 22.000 men between 1992
8 and 1995?
9 A. This is indeed my evidence.
10 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 31413 for
11 the witness.
12 Q. Sir, before you is a comparative review of changes in strength of
13 the SRK for the period of 4 April to 31 December, 1992, with updated
14 information as of 24 February, 1993.
15 Before we discuss some of the details in the document, do you
16 recognise the units that are mentioned in this review under the name of
17 unit column?
18 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any way to enlarge it for the witness so
19 that we only have the ...
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, these are some figures which
21 surpass mine, but I guarantee that the 22.000 who were armed, that's what
22 I had in mind. This is everybody, even the auxiliary personnel. They
23 were all members of the corps. In operative terms, there were only
24 22.000 troops and of those only 12.000 fighters one could rely on. If
25 you reduce the figure even further and if you select from those --
1 MR. WEBER:
2 Q. I'm going to ask you about some of the formations in here. I was
3 just wondering if you recognised the units mentioned. Just so that we
4 make sure that we have a common understanding of the document, I just
5 want you to focus quickly on number 12 which refers to the first Rpbr
6 with what appears to be a full strength of 6.043. And then according to
7 my math, if you subtract the killed and wounded soldiers, a current
8 strength of 5.254. Do you see that information?
9 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could you -- Witness, Witness --
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you please repeat? Something
11 about 6.000?
12 MR. WEBER: If we could have the centre of the document enlarged
13 for the witness.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the witness is asking you to repeat --
15 MR. WEBER: And then I was just making sure that he could see it.
16 If we could please have the centre of the document further enlarged for
17 the witness.
18 Q. Sir, I just want to follow across --
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The centre of the document should be enlarged.
20 MR. WEBER: Yes. Potentially --
21 JUDGE ORIE: No, no --
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Especially line 12.
23 MR. WEBER:
24 Q. Sir, what I was referring to, it appears according to this report
25 that the 1st Rpbr has a total, a full strength, according to this
1 document, of 6.043 which we see, if you read across to the right, on --
2 on the line, is there. And then there is a number of 193 and -- related
3 to the number of killed members of that brigade. And 596 for the wounded
5 MR. WEBER: And then if we could please scroll over to the right
6 a little.
7 Q. We see that there -- in the last column, which is entitled "The
8 Current Strength," there is a number of 5.254. Do you see this
10 A. Yes, but the date? When was this recorded? Was it in 1992?
11 Q. So --
12 A. What is the date of the table? What is the date?
13 Q. If we could -- I read it to you.
14 MR. WEBER: But if we could then zoom out.
15 Q. What this review indicates is that it's for the period of 4 April
16 to 31 December, 1992, and then right underneath that you can see that
17 it's updated with current information from 24 February, 1993. So it
18 would be our position that that final column to the far right would
19 reflect the number based on the current information as of the
20 24th of February, 1993.
21 Sir, do you understand that that -- that's how this document
22 reads? Just before discussing it with you, I just want to make sure that
23 we are on the same page.
24 A. This document contains some parts of the former JNA. If we are
25 talking about the 4th of April, 1992, they were deployed in the logistics
1 base. This --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Witness ---
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is astonishing. What I'm
4 reading is astonishing. Okay.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, the actual strength as the document appears
6 to be present is the 24th of February, 1993. Wait for a question.
7 THE WITNESS: Okay.
8 JUDGE ORIE: You understand how the table is structured. Wait
9 for the question Mr. Weber will put to you.
10 MR. WEBER:
11 Q. Just so we have clarification, is it correct that the
12 1st Romanija Brigade, Light Infantry Brigade was the largest SRK brigade
13 which is reflected in this document with the highest totals of personnel?
14 A. I didn't deal with numbers. That was at the beginning of the
15 war. Later the number was reduced and that's why I said 22.000. It is
16 possible that it was that many but not all of those were operative
17 members of the staff. A lot were auxiliary personnel.
18 Q. Okay. So when you say "operative," do you mean active members of
19 the military as opposed to reserves?
20 A. No, no. That includes reserves. Nobody was active there. They
21 were all reservists. It was a people's army. None of them were
22 22-year-old recruits. They were troops ranging in age from 20 to 60.
23 And for your information, sir --
24 Q. [Previous translation continues]... ^ 10589 2.30.07
25 A. May I?
1 Q. We've heard a lot of information about these things so I'm not
2 going to dwell too much on it. I just -- want to just direct your
3 attention to lines 16 to 18.
4 A. [In English] Okay.
5 MR. WEBER: If we could scroll over to the left for the witness a
6 little bit.
7 Q. We see that there is reference to the Rajlovac, Vogosca, and
8 Kosevo Brigades. We'll talk about these brigades some more a little bit
9 later, but right now while we're on this document, is it correct that
10 these three brigades joined together and became part of the
11 3rd Sarajevo Brigade when it was formed in early 1994?
12 A. [Interpretation] Yes, they all became the 3rd Vogosca Brigade.
13 The Rajlovac and Kosevo Brigade, that is.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. It is correct. They were united into another third brigade
16 because both the Rajlovac and Vogosca had less men than a brigade.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, none asked you why it was. Mr. Weber was
18 just seeking whether they were joined in the third brigade. You've
19 answered that question.
20 Please proceed.
21 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please tender this document
22 into evidence.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Document 31413 receives number P6817,
1 Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
3 MR. WEBER:
4 Q. Sir, is it correct that individuals were mobilised into the SRK
5 during the early months of the war?
6 A. Please repeat.
7 Q. Sir, is it correct that individuals were mobilised into the
8 Sarajevo Romanija Corps during the early months of the war?
9 A. I can't answer your question because I have to respect the
10 Chamber's request. I was not present when those things were done, so I
11 cannot answer your question.
12 Q. Okay. I'll move on to something else then.
13 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 31430 for
14 the witness.
15 Q. Before you will be appearing a 28 May, 1992, order from SRK
16 commander Tomislav Sipcic related to the training of young soldiers.
17 Under item 1, the order states:
18 "All Corps units are to assemble mobilised young men who have
19 still not done military service and send them to Pale municipality to
20 undergo training lasting 30 days."
21 At the end of the paragraph, the order states:
22 "After the 30-day training, the young soldiers will be sent to
23 combat arms units, where they will continue their specialist training in
24 order to be trained for combat specialities."
25 As a member of the corps command at the time, can you tell us
1 what type of specialist training was provided for these individuals after
2 their initial training in Pale?
3 A. I never spoke to Sipcic. I never communicated with him. At that
4 time I was in Sokolac and I assisted Lieutenant-Colonel Bosanac in
5 establishing a brigade in Sokolac, so I wouldn't know anything about
7 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, is your answer that you do not know what
8 kind of specialist training was provided for these individuals that had
9 been after their initial training? You do not know or do you know?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know what training it is,
11 Mr. President.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's in handling --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Then answer that question because that was the
15 question. What was the specialist training?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was actually basic training in
17 using basic armament; i.e., rifles.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Is that after the 30-day training that what is
19 described here as specialist training, is that when they learned how to
20 handle a rifle?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's the training. And then
22 after that people are ear-marked for various specialties as signalsmen,
23 as mortar crew members, and so on and so forth. That's how things should
24 have been.
25 JUDGE ORIE: That's where they got specialist training on?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Basic, yes. Basic.
2 MR. WEBER: Judge, if I could make a go?
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
4 MR. WEBER:
5 Q. Sir, in the initial training, did everyone receive -- when they
6 joined the SRK, did they receive what you are describing to be basic
8 A. Whoever was recruited had to undergo that to be made usable. Can
9 I add something else?
10 Q. Sir, is this what you are referring to as basic training? Just
11 so we can have some idea of what you're discussing.
12 A. We are talking about young lads who had not served in the army
14 Q. Sir, sir, before explanations, I'm just trying to figure out for
15 the record is this what you're referring to as basic training? What
16 everyone went through when they joined.
17 A. Yes, the basic training was accelerated and those who had never
18 held a rifle in their hands before - I'm talking about young lads - had
19 to undergo that.
20 Q. Okay. Let's pause here for a second and just go step by step.
21 As part of this basic training when they learned to handle rifles, would
22 they be taught marksmanship with those rifles? How to fire those rifles
23 with accuracy.
24 A. It's routine training. There was fire practice, targets, firing
25 in order to dispel fear of arms in rukez ^ c. There is nothing
1 specialist about that. This is basic training where they are taught how
2 to defend themselves from an attack and how to respond to an attack.
3 Q. Sir, I'm going to ask you again and please just focus on my
4 question: Now, were you aware that at this time that the SRK, as part of
5 its rifles, possessed M48 and M76 rifles?
6 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Witness, it seems that you're very busy
7 reading rather than listening to the question. The SRK, part of its
8 rifles, did they possess M48s?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Most of them were M48s.
10 JUDGE ORIE: So the answer is yes. Did they possess M76 rifles?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course they had those as well.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
13 Next question please, Mr. Weber.
14 MR. WEBER:
15 Q. Now, would people be -- receive training on these M48 and M76
16 rifles as a part of the basic training or would that come after?
17 A. You're asking me about this training. I told you that people
18 were recruited and then whatever follows. And as for the pace of
19 training, the --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Witness, Witness --
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- process of training, I was not
22 in charge. I wouldn't know.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, during the first basic training, did newly
24 recruited soldiers learn how to fire M48s and/or M76 rifles?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- they underwent that training.
3 It all depended on what weapons they were given.
4 JUDGE ORIE: You've answered the question.
5 Next question please, Mr. Weber.
6 MR. WEBER:
7 Q. In paragraph 36 of your statement, you claim that "the level of
8 training at the SRK can be called lack of training." Sir, it actually
9 seems that you have awareness of the fact that there was training that
10 was offered from the very outset of the war. I put it to you that this
11 contradicts the evidence or at least the portrayal of how you've depicted
12 it in your statement. Do you have any comment?
13 A. Yes, I do have comment. The contingent that was trained, they
14 were -- it was a small number of people. I don't know how many. Perhaps
15 across the entire corps, perhaps several hundred men were trained. As
16 for the rest, those were mostly people who had served in the former JNA.
17 They didn't undergo any training. They were poorly trained. They could
18 only fire a bullet if somebody opened fire at them and to defend
19 themselves in that way. That's why I said that there was a general lack
20 of training across the military.
21 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I just put the question to him for the
22 sake of putting our case to him, so the Prosecution would tender 31430
23 into evidence.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Document 31430 receives number P6818,
1 Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
3 MR. WEBER:
4 Q. Sir, I just want to go through a little bit of your positions to
5 hopefully provide some clarity on this. Is it correct that you were
6 assigned to the morale and information sector of the
7 2nd Military District between the 30th of April and 15th of May, 1992?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Okay. Yesterday you testified, and this is at transcript pages
10 26756 to -57 that you first met General Mladic at his request on 15 May,
11 1992, and that he referred you to General Gvero after you had introduced
12 yourself. Do you know why General Mladic sent you to General Gvero?
13 A. On the 15th of May, the 2nd Army District was no longer. When I
14 was released from hotel Europa, I came to Pale, I was at the forward
15 command post, and I was invited to report to Crna Rijeka to
16 General Mladic on the 14th of May. I told you about our encounter
17 yesterday. And then he referred me to General Gvero because he was the
18 assistant for morale in the Main Staff.
19 Q. After you saw General Mladic, did General Gvero give you a
20 further assignment; and more specifically, your assignment to the
21 Sarajevo Romanija Corps?
22 A. On the 15th of May, the atmosphere was very heavy because of the
23 events in Tuzla and Brcanska Malo [phoen]. The first thing that Gvero
24 ordered me to do ...
25 Q. Sir, if you could answer my question, did General Gvero give you
1 a further assignment to the Sarajevo Romanija Corps? Just a simple yes
2 or no.
3 A. No.
4 Q. Okay. At that time, was it your understanding -- or actually,
5 where did he assign you at that time? Or did he provide you with an
6 assignment? I guess I'm ahead of myself.
7 A. The assignments are made according to the will of the commander.
8 On the 24th of May or the 23rd, I went to help Lieutenant-Colonel Bosanac
9 in setting up a brigade at Sokolac to be his assistant and to participate
10 in the forming of the brigade.
11 Q. Okay. Does that have anything to do with any of your encounters
12 with either General Mladic on General Gvero on the 15th of May?
13 A. Well, yes, General Gvero was acting probably on orders of
14 General Mladic when he told me to go there. I accepted that and I went
16 Q. Okay. In terms of your official assignment, is it correct that
17 you served as part of the morale guidance, religious, and legal affairs
18 sector of the SRK command between 15 May and 22 June, 1992?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Okay. Was your superior during this time Colonel Ljuban Kosovac?
21 A. Ljubo did not issue any orders to me. I -- or immediately went
22 to Ilidza on the north-westerly axis and I remained there until my
23 departure for Belgrade.
24 Q. Okay. And -- we -- just so we're clear, this is just between the
25 period of 15 May and 22 June, 1992; correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Okay. Is it correct that you were assigned to the military
3 history institute of the VJ General Staff administration for information
4 and morale guidance between 28 July, 1992, and 1 April, 1993?
5 A. No, I was working at the institute. No. I returned to my former
7 Q. Okay. When you say that -- just so we're clear, I'm saying that
8 you did work for the military history institute during this period, and
9 was that the military history institute of the VJ General Staff
10 administration for information and moral guidance?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. In paragraph 4 of your statement, you indicate that you returned
13 to the SRK on 1 April, 1993. Upon your return, were you assigned to the
14 SRK command sector for moral, religious, and legal affairs? That's the
15 sector you were assigned to; correct?
16 A. Yes, yes.
17 Q. During this time, is it correct that you were subordinate to
18 Colonel Kosovac, who was the assistant commander for moral, religious,
19 and legal affairs at the SRK command?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And thank you, sir. I appreciate those clarifications.
22 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 31433 for
23 the witness. Okay.
24 Q. Sir, this is a -- what I'd like to discuss with you, actually,
25 just so you understand the topic, a little bit further, the tasks of your
1 department and the SRK. Before you is a plan of moral guidance and
2 psychological activities and informing.
3 MR. WEBER: And if we could actually go to the last page in both
4 versions, quickly. And if we could enlarge the very lower right corner,
5 the signature area in the B/C/S version for the witness.
6 Q. Sir, directing your attention to the lower right, can you confirm
7 that this is the signature of Colonel Kosovac?
8 A. This is his signature. I do not know it, though. But I think it
9 is his signature. I have never seen it, therefore I cannot memorise it.
10 Q. Okay. You recognise the stamp of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps
11 command; correct?
12 A. It says here that this is the command of the
13 Sarajevo Romanija Corps.
14 Q. I understand what the stamp says --
15 A. I never looked carefully at any stamp, so I cannot --
16 Q. Let's go through the document.
17 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please return to the first page
18 in both versions.
19 Q. Under item 1 of this plan entitled, "Moral and Informing," the
20 plan lists as a permanent task --
21 MR. WEBER: And I believe that's now cut off for the witness in
22 the B/C/S version.
23 Q. As a permanent task:
24 "Present the objectives of defence and the liberation struggle
25 adopted by the RS state and political leadership." Was this one of your
1 tasks? And I just see the --
2 A. Can you please repeat the question?
3 Q. As a permanent task, it says:
4 "Present the objectives of defence and the liberation struggle
5 adopted by the RS state and political leadership."
6 Was this one of your tasks, to present these objectives?
7 A. Yes. Yes, it was. Let me just look at the heading.
8 Q. Sir, let me know when you're ready for me to continue.
9 A. You may continue.
10 Q. Okay. Thank you. We see that the plan lists news agencies as
11 one of the cooperating bodies.
12 MR. WEBER: If we could scroll over a little bit to the right for
13 the witness.
14 Q. Does this mean that these objectives were intended to be
15 presented through the media?
16 A. Well, we didn't have any specific contacts with the media. That
17 was not done at our level. That was more at the level of the Main Staff
18 and the civilian authorities. Our exclusive scope of work involved only
19 the corps in direct communication with the men who were manning the
21 Q. Okay. Well, do you know if the objectives being referred to
22 here, and that's the objectives of defence and the liberation struggle,
23 if they were presented at all through the media with statements
24 emphasising how the VRS is defending the endangered position of the
25 Serbian people in age-old Serbian lands and things of that such?
1 A. That was not done at the corps level but rather at a higher
2 level, so there is nothing disputable about this.
3 Q. And that's how the -- the Main Staff level presented these
4 objectives; correct?
5 A. I cannot remember what the Main Staff used to say or tell. I
6 cannot comment on that because I was not aware of what was the Main Staff
7 doing and how the civilian authorities at the republican level were
8 operating in terms of disseminating information.
9 Q. And, sir, just so you understand my position on this, it appears
10 according to this document that the responsible -- who's from -- it's
11 from your superior. It appears to indicate that the responsible body for
12 this is the SRK command. So it would be our position that the command of
13 the SRK was also involved in this, just so you understand that.
14 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have the last page of
15 both versions. And if we could assist the witness by focusing on item 2
16 on the page.
17 Q. Under item 2 there is another permanent task which, according to
18 this, the responsible body is the organ for moral guidance, religious,
19 and legal affairs in the SRK and the units. The permanent task that's
20 listed here states:
21 "Through systemic spreading of misinformation in the media, cover
22 up our real intentions and instigate conflicts and dissent among the
23 enemy's ranks and the ranks of the enemy's supporters."
24 Is it correct that one of the tasks of your organ was to
25 systematically use the media to spread misinformation that covered up the
1 real intentions of the Army of Republika Srpska?
2 A. Now I am starting to doubt this document because this is all new
3 to me. Now this item that speaks about religious activities. I never
4 met any of the priests during the war. And as for these other entries, I
5 cannot confirm it. As I said, I am becoming suspicious about this
7 Q. Sir, you haven't answered my question. Was this one of your
8 tasks, to spread misinformation in the media?
9 A. No, no.
10 Q. Okay.
11 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution would tender this document into
13 JUDGE ORIE: Would you have any explanation, Witness, as to why
14 this document says that this is a task for the organ for moral, guidance,
15 religious, and legal affairs in the SRK, whereas you say it was not -- at
16 least not part of your task? Do you have any explanation for this?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With pleasure I can do that. This
18 is the first time that I'm seeing this document describing these
19 activities. My official title was assistant commander of the corps for
20 moral guidance; however, my main duty was to offer assistance on the
21 north-westerly axis. Therefore, I wasn't very much involved in these
22 activities but rather in the activities of patching up gaps in the
23 establishment that occurred. In other words, I wasn't very much involved
24 in all of this.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Now, I see that you are saying that this was not
1 what you were tasked with. Were you aware of others performing a task as
2 described here within the organ for moral guidance, religious, and legal
3 affairs in the Sarajevo Romanija Corps?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have to tell you that the organ
5 for morale of the SRK was rather inert and passive. They didn't do much
6 in that area. And, Mr. President, as I told you, the very fact that
7 people were defending their own home ground, their families, was quite
8 sufficient. We didn't need anyone to boost our morales further.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So I do understand your answer to be that you
10 are not aware of anyone in your organ for moral, guidance, religious, and
11 legal affairs of the SRK to be involved in the performance of such a
13 MR. WEBER: Judge, could I ask a follow-up question?
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Ivetic is on his feet, so I ...
15 MR. IVETIC: The document was tendered. I'm waiting to object to
16 the document based upon the witness's suspicions raised about the
17 document, his inability to confirm the content of the document and his
18 inability to confirm the signature on the document. Thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MR. WEBER: Well --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
22 MR. WEBER:
23 Q. Mr. Maksimovic, so you're aware, this document comes from the
24 archives in the Kozara military barracks in Banja Luka. And it's our
25 position that it is authentic. Before I ask you something related to
1 that, is it correct that you attended the morning meetings of the corps
3 A. Yes, in most cases. Whenever I was in Lukavica, the general
4 would invite me.
5 Q. Okay. And you've already said that Colonel Kosovac was your
6 superior. I put it to you that you're purposefully distancing yourself
7 from knowledge in this document because it is unfavourable to the sector
8 that you were a part of. Do you have any other comment?
9 A. I don't think you're right. I have no ill-intentions. I made a
10 declaration to speak the truth. However, if there is something
11 dubitable, I cannot confirm it either in a positive or a negative way.
12 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution would again tender this document.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I have one further question. You said you
14 expressed some doubts of the document. Could you tell us what your
15 doubts are apart from the content which we have discussed?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Due to its contents.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of its --
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Especially the entry relating to
19 religious affairs.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's content rather than the format or the
21 appearance of the document.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, may I just have a
23 minute to tell you something? Sometimes there are some sentences which
24 are rather for the sake of formality. You know that an impression is
25 made that there was some religious impact. However, in practice there
1 was very low intensity of these activities. This was more for the sake
2 of --
3 JUDGE ORIE: We are discussing at this moment the document, not
4 whether the tasks as described in this document were performed or
5 achieved. That's a different matter.
6 Mr. Weber, the document apparently is an attachment number 6 to
7 another document. Do you know what it is related to?
8 MR. WEBER: I do, Your Honour. And if I could have a second
9 here. I believe it's related to the plan of moral and psychological
10 activities and informing of the -- if I could just have one second.
11 [Prosecution Counsel Confer]
12 MR. WEBER: Yes. It was the document I thought it was. We've
13 also uploaded the report that it was a part of, 65 ter 31435. We'd be
14 happy to tender both of the documents into evidence. There is some of
15 the language reflected in this, the other report, which was drafted by
16 Colonel Kosovac and approved by General Galic.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Now, it's fine that you give me a number. But that,
18 of course, doesn't tell me much about, apart from that it's attached to
19 another document which has a number. That's what it tells me.
20 MR. WEBER: The other document is the plan of moral and
21 psychological activities and informing of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps,
22 and it was -- I have it down as signed being by Colonel Kosovac and
23 approved by General Galic.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Then does it have a date?
25 MR. WEBER: The plan is actually undated. But based on the
1 individuals that are assigned, basically Colonel Kosovac, it would be our
2 position that it's sometime in 1993.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can we have that on the screen, 65 ter 31435?
4 JUDGE ORIE: Now this plan apparently is -- what we see on our
5 screen now is an attachment number 6 to something else as well?
6 MR. WEBER: Yeah. I see that it's part of what is listed as
7 Drina, and I believe, if my recollection serves me right, I can confirm
8 further over the next recess, but there was a whole series of attachments
9 to the Drina materials and there were multiple attachments. So this
10 civic attachment that I'm bringing up is the attachment number 6, which
11 is the plan related to moral and psychological activities and informing
12 of the SRK and the attached list, because that was the topic that I was
13 going to go into with the witness since it pertained to his sector.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 Now, Mr. Ivetic, you said it was about the doubts of the witness.
16 We know more about what kind of doubts the witness has. The witness
17 doesn't know the document, so that is clear that we could not deal with
18 it as introduced in, I would say, the traditional way by the witness. At
19 the same time, the witness gave evidence about matters that are described
20 in the document. Is there any objection against admission in more
21 general terms?
22 MR. IVETIC: Yes, under what bases? What is the bases for
23 admission? What is the rule or the bases for admission?
24 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the rule is -- the rule is -- I believe we
25 have had that about 50 or 60 times, that the witness gives evidence about
1 matters which are directly related to what we find in documents. And
2 under those circumstances, I think we deviated from a kind of general
3 rule that bar table documents should be combined. And that's the
4 basis -- would be the basis for admission, I take it, Mr. Weber.
5 MR. WEBER: And I am -- as a member of the corps command, I am
6 also offering this to go to his credibility. So he's denied it and he
7 hasn't confirmed things, but --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Well, there are two things.
9 MR. WEBER: Yeah.
10 JUDGE ORIE: That is the kind of objections Mr. Ivetic refers to
11 and the purpose --
12 MR. WEBER: Yes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: -- of admitting the documents.
14 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Purpose is not the same of admissibility in itself
16 which is about relevance of probative value and that is not something
17 invoked by Mr. Ivetic.
18 MR. WEBER: Okay. Thank you for that clarification.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic.
20 MR. IVETIC: Responding only to the issue of the bar table
21 submission of document. Your Honours have now said that you have
22 deviated from a rule. I am operating under guidance that Your Honour has
23 issued as to when the Prosecution was to make final bar table submissions
24 of documents. If the document is being presented for the truth of the
25 matter asserted in the document, I submit it is improper to do it through
1 a witness who has no personal knowledge about the document and then to
2 say it is a bar table submission. The time for such submissions has
3 passed and we need to know the entirety of the case that the Defence must
4 answer of the Prosecution. We cannot be constantly adding to the
5 Prosecution's case when it suit the Prosecution during the Defence case.
6 We don't know how to deal with these documents. We relied upon
7 the guidance of the Chamber when the final bar table submissions of the
8 Prosecution would be and what case we would have to answer in our Defence
9 case, and now we're being surprised with new documents at every turn with
10 every witness. As you've said, this has happened 50 or so times. I
11 don't think it has been 50, but it has happened a number of times with
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Apparently it escaped your attention what the
14 reasons were for the Chamber not to make those part of general bar table
15 submissions but rather admit them in the context of a testimony of a
16 witness. The objection is denied.
17 Madam Registrar, let me just see whether you have given a --
18 MR. WEBER: And, Your Honours, I don't know if you want one or
19 both of the documents.
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE ORIE: I think we were discussing the original document.
22 That objection is denied. Now -- yes, then let me just see. That was,
23 Madam Registrar, was number?
24 THE REGISTRAR: Document number 31433.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The number would be?
1 THE REGISTRAR: Receives number P6819, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: P6819 is admitted into evidence.
3 The reasons for the denial of the objection, Mr. Weber, for the
4 document which is on our screen now, do not apply. I hope that you're
5 aware of that because you've not asked any question about the content of
6 this document to the witness.
7 MR. WEBER: I -- I would just leave it to your discretion and
8 [Microphone not activated]
9 MR. IVETIC: Microphone, microphone.
10 MR. WEBER: I was only seeking to tender the first one.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, okay.
12 MR. WEBER: And I was just leaving it to your discretion whether
13 you wanted the second one or not.
14 JUDGE ORIE: You're not tendering it? That's what I establish.
15 MR. IVETIC: It's time for the break and my client had sent a
16 message asking for the break now.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll take the break now, then.
18 Mr. Maksimovic, we would like to see you back in 20 minutes. We
19 resume at 10 minutes past 12.00.
20 [The witness stands down]
21 --- Recess taken at 11.54 a.m.
22 --- On resuming at 12.15 p.m.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Ivetic, there seems to be a confusion now
24 and then about the admission of documents. When I used the word "bar
25 table" as an other option, I perhaps have not been very clear in my
1 language. Perhaps I should have talked about the admission of a document
2 not through someone who is, has personal knowledge about that document or
3 is familiar with it already or -- and that, of course, would include the
4 author of a document, but rather speak about that category than bar table
5 because bar table is the avenue through which the document is introduced
6 whereas the category I was referring to was of a different kind. It's
7 not an avenue through which but it is about the relation of the document
8 with the testimony given by a witness.
9 [The witness takes the stand]
10 JUDGE ORIE: But the Chamber will come with some further
11 explanation on this soon so that we avoid any confusion in the near
13 MR. IVETIC: I would appreciate that, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, could I provide some further
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you may do so.
18 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, I just wanted to make sure that there
19 was an accurate statement concerning the list that I just tendered that
20 was an attachment. During the break - and this is P6819 -- during the
21 break I was able to acquire further information. It's part of a register
22 of documents from the SRK corps -- well, the corps, delivered to the
23 Main Staff of the VRS, and we have the cover for it which is dated the
24 2nd of February, 1994, and these were two of the -- what was shown and
25 admitted was one of the attachments and then the second document was also
1 one of those attachments. So I just wanted to give that to the Chamber
2 so that it was informed of that.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for that information.
4 You may continue, Mr. Weber.
5 MR. WEBER:
6 Q. Mr. Maksimovic, I would now like to switch topics with you and
7 discuss someone who you have previously testified about. Is it correct
8 that you are familiar with Slavko Aleksic? At this time I am simply
9 asking yes or no.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Slavko Aleksic never undertook anything on his own initiative
12 without the knowledge of the SRK command; correct?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. Slavko --
15 A. As far as I know.
16 Q. Slavko Aleksic acted exclusively pursuant to orders passed
17 through the SRK chain of command?
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic.
19 MR. WEBER:
20 Q. Correct?
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic.
22 MR. IVETIC: I believe that the manner in which these questions
23 are being asked calls for specification. Without talking about specific,
24 concrete acts or specific, concrete circumstances where in these
25 statements might have been said, the simple assertion in a very generic
1 and vague manner about an individual I believe is --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There are two. To some extent, I do agree
3 with you, Mr. Ivetic.
4 First of all, Mr. Weber, the answer to the first question is most
5 likely not reliable and that relates to the question because whether
6 Slavko Aleksic never undertook anything of his own initiative without the
7 knowledge of the SRK command, you mean to say in a professional context
8 which, of course, is not part of the question. I may take it that he has
9 gone into town and buy a bread without the previous. Therefore, and that
10 is the second issue, and I tend to agree with Mr. Ivetic, if you ask him
11 whether the witness is aware of any occasion where Slavko Aleksic
12 undertook anything on his own initiative without the knowledge of the SRK
13 command, then you have phrased the question in such a way that the answer
14 is -- and then still in his professional capacity I would say because the
15 witness may be familiar with the acts and conduct of Mr. -- of the
16 person --
17 MR. WEBER: I --
18 JUDGE ORIE: -- on a private level.
19 MR. WEBER: I --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's just a matter of phrase it in such way
21 that you avoid any of the comments rightly --
22 MR. WEBER: Yeah.
23 JUDGE ORIE: -- put by Mr. Ivetic.
24 MR. WEBER: I will do this another way. I was trying to be
25 expedient and just confirm previous things I'd stated. Could the
1 Prosecution have 65 ter 31442, page 19.
2 Q. And, sir, is it correct that you previously -- well, I'll just go
3 through this.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could you repeat the number of the document.
5 MR. WEBER: 31442, 65 ter.
6 Q. Sir, during the Karadzic proceedings you were asked about a
7 quotation from actually the Seselj case and something Mr. Seselj said
8 during his proceedings.
9 MR. WEBER: And then going to -- going to line 18.
10 Q. The question that was posed to you in the Karadzic case was:
11 "And just with regard to the content of that statement, I'd like
12 to read to you from page 8673 of the transcript in the Seselj proceedings
13 something that Dr. -- or Mr. Seselj quoted, and I'd like to ask if you
14 can confirm that. He says, starting at line 6, that you wrote, referring
15 to you:
16 "'Aleksic never undertook anything of his own initiate or without
17 the knowledge of the corps command. He acted exclusively pursuant to
19 You were then asked:
20 "Can you confirm that that's what you set out in your statement
21 from Mr. Seselj."
22 Your answer was:
23 "I can confirm that because that was also the opinion of the
24 corps command" --
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we turn the page, please.
1 MR. WEBER: Oh, I'm sorry. Thank you, Your Honour. And if I can
2 have the next page.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And we need only one version because there is no
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: The next page doesn't seem to say what you were
6 saying, Mr. Weber.
7 MR. WEBER: I think we're on a different page. I'm looking for
8 31578 which should be page 20 of this upload. And as I'm continuing
9 reading here.
10 Q. Your answer was, starting at line 2 here:
11 "I can confirm that, because that was also the opinion of the
12 corps command, that he did not do anything. He just defended his small
13 area of responsibility very difficult and very dangerous, the
14 Jewish Cemetery."
15 Do you stand by this evidence?
16 A. I do.
17 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution now have 65 ter 30852.
18 Q. Sir, I do want to discuss a little further with you Mr. Aleksic
19 in relation to this document. This -- coming up before you will be a
20 16 December, 1993, request for ammunition from Slavko Aleksic. According
21 to the document, he was the commander of the anti-tank company of the
22 Jewish Cemetery. Were you aware that Mr. Aleksic held this position as
23 part of this company?
24 A. I must tell you how I met Aleksic. When I arrived in the corps,
25 I --
1 JUDGE ORIE: You must answer the question, Witness.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well then. Correct. He was
3 in charge of anti-tank combat.
4 MR. WEBER:
5 Q. The document indicates that it was sent to a battalion commander
6 by the name of Blagoje Kovacevic. Is it correct that Blagoje Kovacevic
7 was actually the brigade commander of the 1st Smbr at this time in 1993?
8 I'm just asking you this for clarification purposes.
9 A. What date is that?
10 Q. December 1993.
11 A. I believe that Stojanovic was commander that year. Aleksic had a
12 low rank. Later on he was in the Igman Brigade or Blazuj Brigade. I
13 can't confirm about Kovacevic.
14 Q. Well, in terms of the zone of responsibility at the time in the
15 Jewish Cemetery, is it correct that that was in the zone of
16 responsibility of the 1st Smbr, the 1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade?
17 A. Yes. It was within the zone of responsibility of the
18 Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade, and I just remembered that Kovacevic was the
19 commander of the battalion. He was not in direct -- he was in direct
20 contact with Aleksic because Aleksic was a member of that battalion. Now
21 we have clarified that matter.
22 Q. Okay. Now I want to further explore what other detail knowledge
23 that you have regarding this company with this document. And if you
24 could look over the types of ammunition being requested. Were you aware
25 that Mr. Aleksic's company possessed weaponry for this type of
1 ammunition? So if you could take your time, look at the list, and then
2 let me know what your answer to your question -- my question is.
3 A. Yes, this is ammunition for infantry defence. He had a very
4 small area in the Jewish Cemetery. 7.62, 7.9. Yes, that's the
6 Q. Okay. And also --
7 JUDGE ORIE: The question was --
8 MR. WEBER:
9 Q. Well, whether he was aware. Because I'd like to know -- because
10 you're made a very general statement about Mr. Aleksic. We do have
11 further details, so I'm just probing the depth of your knowledge, so --
12 JUDGE ORIE: But even -- Mr. Weber, your question was whether --
13 MR. WEBER: -- whether you were aware.
14 JUDGE ORIE: -- the company possessed weaponry for this type of
15 ammunition, and then the witness said --
16 MR. WEBER: I --
17 JUDGE ORIE: -- this was ammunition for infantry defence but he
18 has not told us whether weaponry, in which this ammunition fits in,
19 whether that was available.
20 MR. WEBER: Okay. Well --
21 JUDGE ORIE: If you don't want to -- if you want to skip that
22 question, fine, but --
23 MR. WEBER: I'm not there yet, Your Honour. I believe that
24 page 58, line 3, my question was actually phrased "were you are aware,"
25 so I was first seeking to confirm what the witness's level of awareness
2 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
3 Please proceed, then.
4 MR. WEBER:
5 Q. So were you aware that Mr. Aleksic's company possessed this
6 ammunition? Or possessed weaponry for this type of ammunition that we
7 see here?
8 A. I am not sure about all of the ammunition. I'm just aware of the
9 calibre 7 and 12.7 to the ordinal number 7, that is.
10 Q. And when you're saying that you're aware of that, you're aware
11 that there was rifles that could fire that type of ammunition that was in
12 the possession of this company?
13 A. I don't know what they had. I toured those positions only once.
14 When I provided a statement for Aleksic, I had consulted with
15 Colonel Lugonja and asked him whether he had acted on the orders of the
16 command and he confirmed that he did. He was very disciplined when it
17 came to combat operations in Grbavica. I'm talking about Aleksic. So he
18 was under the strict command of the corps and he obeyed that.
19 Q. When did Colonel Lugonja tell you this?
20 A. People who were in charge of the Seselj Defence asked me if I
21 could say something about Aleksic.
22 Q. Sir, that's not my question.
23 A. And I told them --
24 Q. I was asking you, you just mentioned that Colonel Lugonja
25 provided you information concerning Mr. Aleksic. When did he tell you
2 A. When I drafted a statement for Aleksic. Lugonja was a very well
3 informed man. The best informed man in the corps.
4 Q. Could you give me year?
5 A. [In English] Question?
6 JUDGE ORIE: When did Mr. Lugonja tell you?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember. Ten years ago,
8 when we talked when I drafted that statement. That wasn't something I
9 would try to remember because I thought it was a matter of routine. I
10 put some questions to him. He read what I wrote. He confirmed that
11 everything was correct.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Now, did you present that in your statement as
13 information by Mr. Lugonja or did you present that in your statement as
14 information from yourself?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've just told you. I consulted
16 with Lugonja. I read one page to him and he agreed with everything.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I've heard that and that caused me to put this
18 question to you. Did you in your statement say, "This is what
19 Mr. Lugonja told me and I'm presenting it as such to you," or did you
20 present it as your own knowledge?
21 Is the statement available, Mr. Weber?
22 MR. WEBER: [Microphone not activated]
23 JUDGE ORIE: But could you please answer my question, whether --
24 how you presented that?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I signed that statement with full
1 Lugonja's consent. The text, I mean.
2 JUDGE ORIE: That was not my question.
3 Mr. Ivetic, we slowly are coming to a point where the Chamber has
4 to consider whether or not it makes any sense to continue this
5 examination where the witness on numerous occasions again and again and
6 again is not answering questions.
7 MR. IVETIC: I disagree, Your Honour. And I think Your Honour is
8 taking a position that is unfair. And I ask Your Honour to consider the
9 question that you asked and the answer that you received when you asked
10 just now, if I can go back, at line 19 through 20:
11 "Did you in your statement say, 'This is what Mr. Lugonja told me
12 and I'm presenting it as such to you,' or did you present it as to your
14 And then you ask, "Is the statement available ..."
15 Could you please answer my question how you present it.
16 And he said, "I signed that statement with full Lugonja's
17 consent," which is not a perfect translation of what was said in Serbian.
18 But, in any event, he said he signed the statement with --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And of course I was talking about presenting
20 it as far as the content is concerned and not as far as signatures are
22 MR. IVETIC: Which you can follow up with, but to present it as
23 the witness is not answering your question, I believe, is a severe -- is
24 a more drastic interpretation of what the witness actually said.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Look at page 60, line 15, where I explained to the
1 witness quite clearly what I meant by presenting, whether he said, This
2 is what Mr. Lugonja told me or, This is what I -- in the statement. And
3 I am -- I have taken notice of your observations, Mr. Ivetic, and so has
4 the Chamber, and I would remind Mr. Mladic that he should not speak
6 I have a few questions. The statement for Mr. Aleksic, Witness,
7 Witness --
8 THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, if you speak aloud again, you know what
10 the consequences will be. If there is any problem with the translation?
11 Apparently there is.
12 Mr. Mladic apparently does not receive interpretation.
13 Mr. Ivetic, the reference I just gave was a wrong one. The line,
14 I think you should focus on, is page 60, lines 18, 19, and 20, where I
15 further explained what I meant with how it was presented. I leave it to
16 that for the time being. I just correct my reference.
17 Has the problem with the audio been resolved? It has been
19 MR. IVETIC: It totally has.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Then we can continue. Yes.
21 I was asking you, Witness, that statement for Mr. Aleksic, in
22 what context did you prepare that?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] His people. People who were in
24 charge of his Defence. They asked me to do that in Zemun.
25 JUDGE ORIE: And was that statement, as far as you're aware of,
1 ever used?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Is any of the parties aware of any statement given
4 by this witness in relation to Mr. Aleksic?
5 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, the core of our initial awareness was
6 based on what Mr. Seselj said during his case and how he represented it,
7 so then, no.
8 MR. IVETIC: Likewise from the Defence.
9 JUDGE ORIE: I beg your pardon?
10 MR. IVETIC: Likewise from the Defence. The only reference is
11 the reference in the transcript to where it was read in the Karadzic case
12 referring to the Seselj case. I've not seen a physical statement.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. Then we don't have that available. It
14 is --
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: But nonetheless, maybe we can -- can I just ask a
16 few questions here.
17 Sir, you drafted the statement and you showed it to
18 Colonel Lugonja.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: And having done that, you then signed it as your
21 own statement.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
24 Just to make it clear, in your statement you didn't refer to
25 Colonel Lugonja, you just submitted it as your own statement?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I signed it. But I stand by
2 what I said.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much and I appreciate that.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.
5 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, can I tender the document into
7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Document 30852 receives number P6820,
9 Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
11 MR. WEBER: And, Your Honours, for the next topic I'm going to
12 explore something that -- could I go into private session.
13 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
14 [Private session]
24 [Open session]
25 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
2 MR. WEBER:
3 Q. Sir, is it correct that you were ordered to report to the Vogosca
4 tactical group on 11 July, 1993?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You were ordered to the Vogosca tactical group two days after it
7 was formed; correct?
8 A. Probably. I cannot remember.
9 Q. Was it shortly after its formation?
10 A. I know that it was summer time and that General Galic asked me to
11 go up there to provide assistance because they had a shortage of
13 Q. The commander of the Vogosca tactical group was Dragan Josipovic;
15 A. Yes, yes.
16 Q. As of July 1993, you were subordinated to Dragan Josipovic of the
17 Vogosca tactical group command; correct?
18 A. Yes, that was, however, a temporary strength or composition.
19 Q. Well, is it correct that for that temporary assignment, and we
20 understand that tactical groups are temporary in their formation, is it
21 correct that you were part of the command staff of the Vogosca tactical
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. General Galic came to visit the command of the Vogosca tactical
25 group two or three times per month; correct?
1 A. No, that was not a rule.
2 Q. Sir, I'm not asking if it was a rule. I'm asking if that is what
3 occurred. Is it correct that General Galic came to visit the command of
4 the Vogosca tactical group two to three times per month?
5 A. It never happened that he would come two or three times a month.
6 He would come whenever he felt it was convenient or appropriate for him
7 to come, but it was never three times in a month.
8 Q. Okay. Well, during your time there, approximately how many times
9 per month do you recall him coming to visit?
10 A. He did not come specifically to Vogosca. Whenever he came, he
11 would visit Ilijas, Hadzici, and other places, the whole area. I cannot
12 tell you exactly. He came according to his own schedule.
13 Q. Okay. Let's see if we can make this shorter.
14 MR. WEBER: But, unfortunately, Your Honours, I need to return
15 into private session for it.
16 JUDGE ORIE: We return into private session.
17 [Private session]
11 Page 26828 redacted. Private session.
21 [Open session]
22 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
24 MR. WEBER:
25 Q. Now, sir, the units subordinated to the Vogosca tactical group
1 were the Vogosca Brigade, the Ilijas Brigade, the Rajlovac Brigade, and
2 the Kosevo Brigade; correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Is it correct that the zone of responsibility for the
5 Vogosca tactical group extended to the Grdonja feature as part of its
6 eastern border and included a portion of Mrkovici?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. The western border of the tactical group's zone of responsibility
9 included Rajlovac; correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 31235 for
12 the witness.
13 Q. Sir, this is a 1 March, 1994, SRK command report from
14 General Galic to the VRS Main Staff. According to the beginning of the
15 report, there was a 5 February order from the VRS Main Staff concerning
16 TG Vogosca, and then General Galic indicates that the Rajlovac, Kosevo,
17 and Vogosca Brigades had been integrated into the 3rd Spbr. Is it
18 correct that the Vogosca tactical group was disbanded in February 1994
19 when these three brigades were merged into the 3rd Sarajevo Brigade?
20 A. That is correct.
21 Q. Is it correct that Dragan Josipovic was made the commander of the
22 3rd Sarajevo Brigade?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Is it correct that you were the deputy commander of the
25 3rd Sarajevo Brigade up until June 1994?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Throughout your statement, you describe various positions you
3 held during this time-period; in particular, I'm referring to
4 paragraphs 4 and 15. Is it correct that you failed to mention that you
5 were the deputy commander of the 3rd Sarajevo Brigade in your statement?
6 A. I did not forget that. I think I did mention it, mention that.
7 But then again, it was a provisional situation. There was no commanding
9 Q. Well, sir, in paragraph 4 of your statement you say:
10 "Between 1 April, 1993, and 1 September, 1994, I was at the
11 Sarajevo Romanija Corps SRK command."
12 And in paragraph 15, you say:
13 "Due to the lack of command staff as assistant for morale, I was
14 occasionally dispatched in 1993 and 1994 to the north-western front to
15 the Vogosca 3rd Sarajevo Brigade and the Igman Brigade."
16 And then you say where the brigade's zone of responsibility
17 stretch from. So my question was actually very precise. In those
18 paragraphs you do not mention your position and that being that you were
19 the deputy commander of the 3rd Sarajevo Brigade; correct?
20 A. That is not so. Both de facto and de jure, I was in the corps
21 and I was discharging those duties. So that is correct. I discharged
22 those duties in my capacity of a member of the corps staff. However, it
23 was Galic who made all the decisions that were relevant for me.
24 Q. Okay. The Chamber has your statement, so I'm not going to go in
25 circles with you about what is and is not in there. But just for
1 fairness, I'm also going to put to you that you don't mention in your
2 statement that -- your assignment to the command of the Vogosca tactical
3 group. Do you have any comments on that?
4 A. I don't know how it happened that way, how it went unnoticed.
5 Q. Okay. Let's go on. Is it correct that Miroslav Krajisnik became
6 the assistant commander for morale in the 3rd Sarajevo Brigade?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. In the report in front of us, General Galic indicates that the
9 3rd Sarajevo Brigade was formed as an infantry brigade with all elements
10 and units ready to accomplish combat tasks. Is it correct that the 3rd
11 Sarajevo Brigade took over the weaponry and equipment which was
12 previously available to the Rajlovac, Kosevo, and Vogosca Brigades?
13 A. They didn't take over anything. Everything was left on the
14 positions, only organisation-wise it was the 3rd Sarajevo. According to
15 its capacity and its numbers, it was below the standard that is
16 applicable to a brigade.
17 Q. Okay. You're speaking about qualifications, but I think you've
18 answered my questions for the most part.
19 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution would tender 65 ter 31235 into
20 evidence. And we note for the record that the 5 February, 1994 -- oh,
21 I'm sorry, Your Honour. That the 5 February, 1994, Main Staff order
22 referred to in this document is admitted as P4345.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Document 31235 receives number P6821,
25 Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
2 MR. WEBER:
3 Q. Sir, have you ever heard of Operation Lukavac 93?
4 A. Yes, I have.
5 Q. Okay. Today at temporary transcript page 7, you stated:
6 "No territories were ever attacked, not even outside of the zone
7 of Sarajevo Romanija Corps. I'm not aware of that."
8 My question to you is: Do you consider that the 546 square
9 kilometres of territory that was liberated by the SRK during the
10 Lukavac 93 operation to be an offensive operation, an offensive action?
11 A. That was a well-thought out operation including the mountainous
12 area between Jahorina and Treskavica in order to achieve a link-up
13 between the territories of Herzegovina and the Romanija plateau. It was
14 a very treacherous terrain for this operation.
15 Q. Sir, you're not answering my question. Just simply, do you
16 consider that to be an offensive operation?
17 A. Yes, yes.
18 Q. Okay.
19 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have -- I'm sorry, it's
20 Exhibit P6549, currently marked for identification.
21 Q. Sir, before you is General Galic's 26 June, 1993, order for
22 further operations concerning Operation Lukavac 93.
23 MR. WEBER: And I'm going to ask that we actually go directly to
24 page 3 in both versions.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Could we have the English on the right side of our
2 MR. WEBER: And I was looking for page 3 in both versions. I
3 believe we have it in the B/C/S but not the English.
4 Q. Sir, I'm going to direct your attention to the first full
5 paragraph after the indentations. The paragraph states:
6 "The goals of the offensive are linking of the majority of our
7 forces ..." I'm not sure actually if this is correct "... compromising of
8 offensive activities of Rajlovac and Vogosca Brigade and possible
9 unblocking of Sarajevo from the direction of Visoko."
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could the English version be enlarged a bit.
11 MR. WEBER: And it's the upper third.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
13 MR. WEBER:
14 Q. Sir, considering your role in the Vogosca tactical group, did you
15 participate as part of the operations Lukavac 93, as part of the -- as
16 part of those operations that came after this order? We see reference to
17 two subordinate brigades of the tactical group, the Rajlovac and
18 Vogosca Brigades.
19 A. The primary task of the tactical group was to defend its zone of
20 responsibility, and it did so parallel with the Lukavac 93 operation.
21 Since there was great danger, General-Colonel Milosevic was there in
22 order to reinforce our defences.
23 Q. Sir, I put it to you that this paragraph is -- contradicts what
24 you keep on describing as a defensive, because it clearly says that these
25 are offensive activities, "The goals of the offensive ..."
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you abandoning the question you had asked
2 which was not answered?
3 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, if you want the -- yeah -- I'll defer to
4 you on my next question if you'd like the --
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: I want to know if you are abandoning it.
6 MR. WEBER: Well, I think you have kind of answered this in part.
7 Q. Is it correct that these two brigades -- that they were under the
8 Vogosca tactical group as part of these operations, these offensive --
9 what's described as offensive?
10 A. These brigades stayed at their positions. They didn't go
11 anywhere. They were not involved in offensive operations between
12 Jahorina and Treskavica.
13 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, at this time. Your Honours. I think
14 we're back.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 MR. WEBER: I would tender this document into evidence at this
18 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE ORIE: We have a number already. I believe it's already an
22 MR. WEBER: I'm sorry, Your Honours. Ms. Stewart just actually
23 reminded me of something important, that was it was MFI'd pending a final
24 CLSS translation which we do not yet have. So if we can just keep that
25 of record then the --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then the --
2 MR. WEBER: MFI should stay.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 MR. WEBER: [Overlapping speakers]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Because it's said here that the OTP intended to use
6 this document with another witness --
7 MR. WEBER: Yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: -- later.
9 MR. WEBER: I'm now using it.
10 JUDGE ORIE: You are now using it with another witness but still
11 it's not translated. We'll wait for the translation.
12 Mr. Ivetic.
13 MR. IVETIC: I rise, although I don't know if the -- well, the
14 inference has been made that the witness somehow is -- said that there
15 were no offensive actions. That's not what he said, and I turn to the
16 paragraph 10 of this statement which is actually talking about this
17 precise operation that we have just had cross-examination about where he
18 actually identifies it as being offensive operations. So I think that
19 there has been a little bit of misrepresentations in terms of the actual
20 testimony of this witness on record about this operation which is not at
21 all contradicted by the testimony that we have just heard.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE ORIE: One second please, Mr. Ivetic.
24 Yes, Judge Moloto may have a question for you.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Ivetic, I'm looking at this paragraph 10 where
1 from line 2 it says:
2 "During which time it carried out offensive operations ..."
3 MR. IVETIC: That's correct.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: But I thought you were rising on the fact that
5 these were not offensive operations but defensive operations.
6 MR. IVETIC: No, no.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm mindful -- okay.
8 MR. IVETIC: What I'm saying is that the Prosecution had
9 intimated that this witness had denied that offensive operations had been
10 undertake by the SRK and the witness's testimony is to the opposite which
11 he has confirmed again today.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: My apologies.
13 MR. WEBER: But I think a lot of this is argument and we're not
14 necessarily spending time on it but the original question related to
15 statement today in court in which he said no territories were ever
16 attacked, not even outside the zone of Sarajevo Romanija Corps. So I was
17 using Lukavac 93 because it's actually the most dramatic example of
18 taking of areas before that, so...
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: And then we --
20 MR. IVETIC: And then we had the follow-up of that in court today
21 where he said no solely Muslim areas were attacked. No exclusively
22 Muslim areas were attacked.
23 JUDGE ORIE: It's also, to some extent, semantics, whether an
24 attack --
25 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: -- is always offensive or whether a counterattack we
2 have had that --
3 MR. IVETIC: And Your Honours have heard a lot of evidence about
4 this operation too.
5 JUDGE ORIE: And let's leave it to that at this moment.
6 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, I see the time. I do not have much
7 more. I will finish rather early in the next session.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
9 MR. WEBER: Before the end of the day.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Then how much time you think you would need?
11 MR. WEBER: I'm going to go to one more document.
12 JUDGE ORIE: One more document.
13 Mr. Ivetic, how much time you would need in re-examination?
14 MR. IVETIC: I should be able to finish within ten minutes, eight
15 to ten minutes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Then it still could make sense to have the next
17 witness standby.
18 Therefore, could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.
19 We'll take a break. We would like to see you back in 20 minutes,
20 Mr. Maksimovic.
21 [The witness stands down]
22 JUDGE ORIE: And we will resume at 1.30.
23 --- Recess taken at 1.12 p.m.
24 --- On resuming at 1.32 p.m.
25 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, if I may use the time.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 MR. WEBER: Just so the Chamber doesn't think I made up a random
3 figure, I -- in my -- in one of my previous questions, I referred to
4 546 square kilometres taken during Lukavac 93. The source of this was
5 P4439, page 2.
6 [The witness takes the stand]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, you may proceed.
8 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 31425.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's P6821 -- I beg your pardon. I'm sorry.
10 I'm wrong.
11 MR. WEBER:
12 Q. Sir, coming up before you is a 14 April, 1994, VRS Main Staff
13 intelligence sector security department report from
14 Colonel Ljubisa Beara.
15 MR. WEBER: If we could please have page 2 in both versions.
16 Q. In the first paragraph of the report, Colonel Beara states:
17 "On 12 April, 1994, I was at Sarajevo 3rd Infantry Brigade
18 attending a briefing of the battalion and assistant commanders. The
19 briefing was led by Colonel Maksimovic, the Brigade Chief of Staff. The
20 briefing was also attended by 'Vojvoda' Jovo Ostojic, the commander of
21 the SRS volunteers detachment which came to 3rd Spbr at the end of
23 Do you recall this meeting?
24 A. The meeting did take place, I'm sure. I remember. But like
25 through a fog.
1 Q. Okay. Well, do you recall who attended the meeting besides
2 yourself and Colonel Beara?
3 A. I'm sure that the commanders of the brigades were there.
4 Q. Okay. You sound like you might be guessing. Do you have any
5 clear recollection of individuals who were present at this meeting?
6 A. I only remember the issues that they had with Ostojic. When they
7 were unarmed, the problem was how to arm them. There were no weapons.
8 We managed to gather some weapons. They were dispatched to their
9 positions. They did not feel safe in their positions. After 25 days I
10 disarmed them and I returned them to where they came.
11 Q. Sir --
12 A. This is true and nothing else. As for the rest --
13 Q. Sir, is it correct that this SRS volunteer detachment, when it
14 came to the 3rd Spbr, was under your command since were the chief of
15 staff which correlates to the deputy commander?
16 A. Yes, they were subordinated to the command.
17 Q. Which included you; correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. In the second paragraph, Colonel Beara indicates that you
20 complained to him about Jovo Ostojic and Vukasin Kuzman, aka Pena, a
21 member of the SRS and a former battalion commander at Rajlovac Brigade
22 who blamed you "for not getting the volunteers any automatic weapons,
23 uniforms, and other equipment while they were 'dying for the Serbian
25 I know you've briefly commented on this so far, but was that --
1 was that exactly what your complaint was?
2 A. Kuzman was not the commander of the Rajlovac Battalion. He was
3 the commander of the Krivoglavci, Josenac Brigade. As for Jovo Ostojic,
4 I can't complain of him. I talked to him. He accepted my suggestions.
5 With his help, I managed to send them back. He was listening, he saw
6 that things were not as they should be, and that's why he returned. I
7 had a lot of problems with Kuzman because he is a very arrogant man. He
8 is not up to the responsibility of the task.
9 Q. Sir --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Witness --
11 MR. WEBER: Yeah.
12 JUDGE ORIE: -- again Mr. Weber read to you what was reported by
13 Mr. Beara. Now, what he read to you, that you had complained to him, is
14 that accurate? Did that happen? Did you not search complaints as read
15 to you?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sure that I complained because
17 some people did not want me there. Beara did not make things up. He did
18 not invent that complaint.
19 JUDGE ORIE: So the way in which he describes your complaints is
20 therefore accurate; is that well understood?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
23 MR. WEBER:
24 Q. At the end of the paragraph, and this is paragraph -- the second
25 paragraph, Colonel Beara states:
1 "Maksimovic rose above the whole thing and ordered his logistics
2 assistant to equip the volunteer unit."
3 Is it correct that this is what you did: You gave orders to
4 provide weapons to these volunteers?
5 A. Yes. We asked for weapons, we found them in the Ilijas and
6 Vogosca Brigade, and we armed them.
7 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have page 3 of the
8 English version and stay on the same page but at the bottom of the B/C/S.
9 This is the top in the English.
10 Q. Sir, directing your attention to the last paragraph on the page
11 before you --
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can we go to the top of the --
13 MR. WEBER: English.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- English page.
15 MR. WEBER: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Q. In this paragraph Colonel Beara states:
17 "On 26 March, 95 volunteers came to the brigade and another seven
18 on 11 April. They were given an area around Golo Brdo and Zuc to
20 JUDGE ORIE: It reads "or Zuc."
21 MR. WEBER: "Or Zuc." Thank you for the clarification,
22 Your Honour.
23 Q. In your statement you claim that there were 30 unarmed volunteers
24 who came to the 3rd Sarajevo Brigade. Is it correct that in fact the
25 number of volunteers that came to the brigade were greater than what you
1 have said so far in your statement?
20 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
21 [Private session]
8 [Open session]
9 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 You may proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
12 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 If we could please turn to P6816, the first page in both
15 Re-examination by Mr. Ivetic:
16 Q. Sir, while we wait for the document I will tell you this is the
17 article from "Nin" magazine from the year 2000; that is, I guess, a form
18 of an open letter from General Kukanjac which you were asked questions
19 about during the cross-examination.
20 Now, the title of the piece is "My Truth," and then in the first
21 paragraph of both versions, it is explained that General Kukanjac
22 approached the "Nin" editorial board and wanted to repudiate some
23 allegations published in their magazine. And in the preamble to his
24 letter, it states that the allegations as to his name were in 1999.
25 Were you aware of the allegations or criticisms of Kukanjac that
1 would have been circulated in 1999 that he was responding to by way of
2 this open letter?
3 A. I didn't know that.
4 Q. Were you aware of any negative comments or besmirches to the
5 reputation of Kukanjac that were circulated following his withdrawal from
6 Sarajevo and from the 2nd Military District of the JNA?
7 A. The 2nd Military District was disbanded. Kukanjac and I talked
8 in Belgrade on several occasions. He complained about some people in
9 Belgrade. He did it publicly. He said that they did not show support
10 and understanding for his position while he was in Sarajevo. I can't say
11 anything bad about Kukanjac or his attitude towards me or our
12 relationship. He came to where I lived in collective housing on several
14 Q. Okay. Now I'd like to then move on. You were asked at temporary
15 page 29 about the number of troops in the SRK, and this was in relation
16 to document P6817. And while we wait for that document, at temporary
17 transcript page 29 you said that the SRK had 22.000 men under arms of
18 which only 12.000 were fighters you could rely on. What exactly did you
19 mean? What kind of distinction were making between the 22.000 and the
20 12.000 figure?
21 A. The 12.000 that I mentioned were soldiers who were engaged on the
22 lines of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps on the inner circle bordering on the
23 city. As for the rest of them, that was a semi-combat complement of the
24 military. They were employed in the rear -- in the elements of the rear.
25 Further on, I wanted to say that the Sarajevo Romanija Corps was
1 stretched to its outer limits. Unlike the enemy side which had three
2 times as many soldiers and their soldiers were resting for three days
3 since then they would spend one day in the trenches, this means that the
4 Sarajevo Romanija Corps was never a danger for Sarajevo. It was never a
5 source of hardship in the city of Sarajevo. And I can also say that --
6 Q. Sir --
7 A. -- the Army of Republika Srpska, including the
8 Sarajevo Romanija Corps, could never have taken Sarajevo because Sarajevo
9 could never have been taken from the low lying land but from the hill
10 tops. All the enemy forces entered Sarajevo from Pale. The Main Staff
11 never undertook any preparations to that effect. Let's sum up. The
12 Sarajevo Romanija Corps was there to protect the --
13 Q. Sir --
14 A. -- the Serbian substance in Sarajevo field.
15 Q. -- you were asked by Mr. Weber whether the distinction between
16 operative and auxiliary troops was a reference to active and reserve
17 officers and you said it was not, but you were not asked to give your
18 definition of what is the difference between an operative and auxiliary
19 troop or soldier. So please tell us, what is the difference between
20 "operative" and "auxiliary" troops?
21 A. Operative units could manoeuvre, could go to different theatres
22 of war, who could be engaged in defence and in attack. And in the
23 Sarajevo Romanija Corps, when I say "operative," I mean that they were
24 there to protect the area and territory under the control of Serb forces.
25 Let me give you an example. A modern brigade of the former JNA,
1 in case of a war, it would have crushed the Sarajevo Romanija Corps
2 immediately. A modern brigade had 3- to 4.000 people and was considered
3 a truly operational unit.
4 Q. And now if you could define for us what is the core element that
5 defines an auxiliary unit?
6 A. Auxiliary units are mainly units of the rear, quartermasters
7 service, technical service. Every brigade has that.
8 Q. Thank you. Now looking at the documents that was presented to
9 you, P6817, here among the various units that are identified and for whom
10 personnel are counted, we see, for instance, the transport battalion
11 number 5, the medical battalion at number 4, the engineering battalion at
12 number 6, the military prosecutors office at number 19, the military
13 court at number 20, and the -- the Han Pijesak RNC at number 11. Would
14 such personnel be considered combat ready troops in military parlance?
15 A. No.
16 Q. And would they --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Should we pay so much attention to this? Only a
18 slight difference. 22.000, 20.000 is almost the same, and it becomes
19 clear that -- I mean, that military courts are not the best ones to put
20 at the front, Mr. Ivetic, or even prosecutors.
21 Mr. Weber, it goes without saying.
22 Therefore, I -- Mr. Weber has paid some attention to the accuracy
23 of the number of 20.000, where the document brings us to 22.000 actual
24 serving. I wonder whether we should pay that much attention to these
1 MR. IVETIC: Well, Your Honours, it was raised by the Prosecution
2 as an --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 MR. IVETIC: -- effort to discredit this witness.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 MR. IVETIC: And I'm going through it and we see his explanation
7 for it.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I --
9 MR. IVETIC: That was not given during the cross-examination when
10 it was suggested that the difference between the operative and auxiliary
11 is active and reserve. So I'm trying to clear the record and give
12 Your Honours the full evidence so that you can know the truth.
13 JUDGE ORIE: And that's the reason why I let you go for a while,
14 but I can tell you that the military courts had caught my eyes already.
15 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I wasn't necessarily -- I mean, yes. I
16 think, Your Honour, the Prosecution would slightly disagree with the
17 reading of it in terms of your focussing on the current strength, I
18 believe, as of 24th February, 1993. But the column -- the full strength
19 of the RJA which --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but then you should have asked the witness
21 whether it was ever at full strength and not just -- -
22 MR. WEBER: Well, the document speaks for ourselves would be our
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But the statement of the witness does not
25 contradict that because he never said, The full strength, which was not
1 only on paper which we ever had, was 30.000. You should have clarified
2 that, to start with.
3 Let's move on. I think the issue is perfectly clear at this
5 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
6 Then I only again would thank Ship-of-the-line Captain Maksimovic
7 for his testimony. That was the last question I had in redirect.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you very much.
9 Mr. Maksimovic, since the Bench has no further -- let me first,
10 Mr. Weber, I had forgotten that you still have a round to go. No
11 questions from the Prosecution. This means that this concludes your
12 evidence, Mr. Maksimovic, and it concludes your testimony, and we would
13 like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague and for having
14 answered all the questions and we even noticed that you would even go
15 further and would have told us more, but I take it that you understand
16 that what we should focus on is best defined by the parties and the
17 Chamber always supports that. But it's appreciated that you wanted to
18 give a lot of information. We wish you a safe return home again. You
19 may follow the usher.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I thank you.
21 Could I be allowed to say goodbye to the general? Maybe it would
22 be a precedent, but I would like to do that and then I will go.
23 JUDGE ORIE: As a matter of fact. No, it is -- the accused has
24 heard that you wished to do that. That should do it. It's not common in
25 a court that the witness greets the accused even when he has concluded
1 his testimony. But the accused certainly has heard your request which
2 may mean something to him.
3 You may follow the usher.
4 THE WITNESS: Okay. [Interpretation] Very well then.
5 [The witness withdrew]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Is the Defence ready to call its next witness?
7 MR. LUKIC: Yes, we are, Your Honour. Our next witness is
8 Mr. Mile Ujic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could the witness be escorted -- yes,
10 apparently the Prosecution gets a bit nervous.
11 For what reason, Mr. Traldi?
12 MR. TRALDI: Not at all, Mr. President.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
14 MR. TRALDI: Just to note that Mr. Lukic and I had agreed that
15 this particular witness should be informed of his rights under Rule 90(E)
16 before his testimony commences.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I'll read Rule 90(E) to him.
18 MR. WEBER: And, Your Honours, just to make some space, if I
19 could ask your permission for Ms. Lee and I to be excused, although
20 it's --
21 JUDGE ORIE: You are. You are excused.
22 Language sometimes is puzzling, to ask for permission to be
23 excused. I take it that the Prosecution intended to ask to be excused.
25 MS. BIBLES: That's accurate, Your Honour.
1 [The witness entered court]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Ujic. Before you give evidence,
3 the Rules require that you make the solemn declaration.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
5 JUDGE ORIE: The text is handed out to you now.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. I solemnly declare that
7 I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
8 WITNESS: MILE UJIC
9 [Witness answered through interpreter]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated, Mr. Ujic.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, thank you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ujic, in relation to the solemn declaration you
13 have given a second ago, I'd like the draw your attention to the
14 following Rule, and I'll first read it to you:
15 "A witness," that would be you, "may object to making any
16 statement which might tend to incriminate that witness himself. The
17 Chamber may, however, compel the witness to answer the question.
18 Testimony compelled in this way shall not be used as evidence in a
19 subsequent prosecution against the witness for any offence other than
20 false testimony."
21 So if you fear that by giving a truthful answer you might
22 incriminate yourself, please address me and you can ask for not having to
23 answer that question in order to avoid that you would incriminate
24 yourself. Is that clear to you?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Clear.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Lukic.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
3 Examination by Mr. Lukic:
4 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Ujic.
5 A. Good afternoon.
6 MR. LUKIC: I would just ask the assistance of the usher so we
7 provide Mr. Ujic with his clean statement. We can show it to the
8 Prosecution first, please.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Lukic, as always, it is helpful to ask the
10 witness for his name --
11 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- especially in this case because the name was,
13 I think, not properly reported in the transcript.
14 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
15 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Ujic, can you please slowly state your full
16 name for the record?
17 A. Your Honours, my name is Mile Ujic. I was born on the
18 25th of May, 1951, in Rogatica.
19 Q. Thank you. In front of you, you have a document. Do you
20 recognise it?
21 A. Yes, I do.
22 Q. What is it?
23 A. That's my statement given to the Defence team.
24 Q. Let us just pause between questions and answers to allow the
25 interpreters to do their job.
1 A. Very well.
2 MR. LUKIC: Can we see 1D1701 on our screens, please.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you say the number again, please.
4 MR. LUKIC: 1D1701.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. We just missed that.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Mr. Ujic, do you see the signature on the cover page of this
9 A. Yes, I do. It's my signature.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please now go to the last page
11 on this document.
12 Q. Do you see a signature on this page and do you recognise it?
13 A. Yes, I do. It's my signature.
14 Q. Thank you. Is what is contained in this statement as your
15 account truthful and accurate?
16 A. To the best of my recollection, it is both truthful and accurate.
17 Q. If I were to put the same questions to you today, would you
18 essentially give the same answers?
19 A. I would give the same answers using the same words, let's say, in
20 99 per cent of the cases.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We would like to tender this
23 statement into evidence.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D1701 receives number D691,
1 Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
3 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
4 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Before we start, actually, I forgot to ask Your Honours for the
6 extension of direct. We sent e-mails yesterday to the Prosecution and to
7 Your Honours, and we would ask for one hour instead of 30 minutes for
8 direct examination of this witness.
9 MR. TRALDI: We certainly have no objection, Mr. President.
10 JUDGE ORIE: There are no objections.
11 Mr. Lukic, you can proceed. We'll not stop you at the usual
12 30 minutes. But, of course, it always depends on how it develops. Use
13 your time as efficiently as possible and if you bring good, solid
14 evidence to the Chamber, then we would give you even more.
15 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
17 MR. LUKIC: I hope I won't need more. Thank you.
18 First I will read statement summary of this witness and I will
19 proceed with the questions, with your leave, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
21 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
22 And I have to admit that this statement summary will be a bit
23 longer than its usual, but not too long.
24 Mile Ujic was born on 25th of May, 1951, and lived in Rogatica.
25 Shortly after the multiparty elections in 1990, he was elected president
1 of the Rogatica Executive Board. He was later appointed as department
2 head of the Rogatica Defence Ministry and acting chief of the
3 Rogatica Brigade.
4 According to Mr. Mile Ujic, nationalist provocations began to
5 manifest themselves in early 1991.
6 In June 1991, the Rogatica secretary for national defence
7 mobilised the reserve forces to assist with the crisis. Of the reserve
8 members of the Rogatica Brigade, 60 per cent had been Muslims. However,
9 a great number of Muslims did not respond to the mobilisation and those
10 who were mobilised to Han Pijesak and Zaluzani were later returned by bus
11 at the initiative of the SDA party.
12 While all military-fit Serbs were mobilised into the
13 216th Brigade, Muslim men filled the reserve police and received weapons.
14 It was clear that from early 1992 onwards there was no unity in
15 Rogatica. Police was divided and then in May 1992, the assembly
16 unanimously voted for the division of Rogatica into Muslim and Serb
18 The war in Rogatica began with the murder of a Serb, Mihaljovic,
19 Drazenko, on the 22nd of May, 1992, after which the Muslims refused to
20 return his body. Following this, the city was not safe to walk around.
21 Many Serb families moved to the countryside and Muslim families move to
22 Sarajevo and Gorazde.
23 Mile Ujic was aware that Muslim extremists burned down many
24 houses of Serbs who had left the town. They also set fire to Serbian
25 bars, a hotel, synagogue, and the power station, leaving Rogatica without
1 electricity for a long time.
2 The Rogatica municipality Serb Territorial Defence warned Muslim
3 citizens to surrender weapons. Some Muslims did surrender weapons and
4 those who did took refuge in a high school together with Serbian and
5 Croatian families and others who were afraid of the war.
6 Most people in Muslim villages were armed and ambushes were often
7 carried out on Serbian civilians using the roads. The Serb Crisis Staff
8 and the Serb Territorial Defence command asked these Muslims to
9 peacefully surrender weapons in exchange for security, but some did not
10 accept this. Those villages who were reluctant to join the conflict
11 surrendered weapons and enjoyed full protection.
12 During the liberation of Rogatica, the Rogatica Brigade suffered
14 This was the statement summary of Mr. Ujic's testimony.
15 JUDGE ORIE: You've got a few more minutes to ask the first
16 questions to the witness.
17 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Q. [Interpretation] So, Mr. Ujic, thank you for being patient. We
19 only have a few minutes so let me first ask you something about the army
20 of Muslims in the Rogatica area. Can you please explain to us the
21 position of the chief of police in Rogatica in the wake of multiparty
22 elections and in view of the division of offices within the police in
24 A. Yes, I'll do that. As it was said at the beginning of my
25 statement, following the first multiparty election, I was appointed the
1 president of the Executive Committee that had five members. According to
2 the ratio of population, the power divided --
3 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please slow down. Thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you are invited to speak slower so that the
5 interpreters can follow you.
6 Could you please resume. You said, "According to the ratio of
7 population, the power divided ..." and would you resume from there.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 60:40 per cent, which means that
9 the Muslims had three members on the Executive Committee, whereas the
10 Serb side had two members, myself and another one. By that logic of
11 majority people, it was the Muslims, the three members of the committee,
12 had the right to choose the departments that they wished. We were given
13 two other departments. One of those departments was the public security
14 station. However, as a rule, at least at the time of Bosnia-Herzegovina,
15 where the chief of the police was a Muslim or a Serb, the police station
16 commander would be a member of our other ethnic group. We expected that
17 since they had taken the position of the chief of the police station that
18 we would be given the police commander as a Serb. However, that did not
20 That position was covered by Ramiz Alajbegovic, the former
21 commander of the police station, who was also at the same time in charge
22 of the police reserve force. So this post that we were given in terms of
23 the division of power was as actually not being observed and honoured.
24 So we didn't have any representative in the police.
25 This same person, Ramiz Alajbegovic, recruited members for the
1 police reserve force following the departure of the Serbs. He was left
2 with the Muslim conscript. At the same time, incidentally or not,
3 Muslims returned from training in Croatia and were immediately integrated
4 into the police reserve force. All of them were given weapons, automatic
5 rifles and suchlike. So all of a sudden, the police grew manyfold
6 compared to the one that existed before the war. All of this contributed
7 to increased anxiety among the Serbs who felt endangered and threatened,
8 not only because they were a minority but because many of the conscripts
9 were mobilised for the Han Pijesak Brigade which even increased to the
10 level of minority that we were, and it aggravated the situation even
12 It was also difficult for me to work as the president of the
13 Executive Committee because I was under the pressure on the one hand from
14 the Serbs, and on the other hand I wanted to maintain peace in Rogatica
15 at any cost to keep the industry and businesses going. However, there
16 was a saber rattling on a daily basis and that's how it remained
17 throughout the war.
18 JUDGE ORIE: I think you went well already beyond the specific
19 question that was asked.
20 We'll conclude the hearing for today. You've been only with us
21 for a quarter of an hour, but we'll resume tomorrow, and we would like to
22 see you back at 9.30 in the morning. You may now follow the usher. But
23 not until after I have instructed you that you should not speak or
24 communicate in whatever way with whomever about your testimony, whether
25 that is testimony you've given today or whether that's testimony that's
1 still to be given. If you understand this, you may follow the usher.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand. Thank you very much.
3 [The witness stands down]
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, before we adjourn, could I also encourage
5 you to keep a firm hand in keeping the witness close to what you asked
6 the witness about.
7 We'll adjourn for the day and we'll resume tomorrow, Thursday, on
8 the 16th of October, 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, I.
9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.19 p.m.,
10 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 16th day
11 of October, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.