1 Wednesday, 29 October 2014
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.36 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: While we are waiting -- well, first of all,
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is the case
8 number IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 While waiting for the witness to be escorted into the courtroom,
11 I'd like to address the Defence in relation to the reopening of the
12 Prosecution's case in chief.
13 On the 23rd of October, the Chamber granted the Prosecution's
14 motion to reopen its case to present the evidence of 13 witnesses. Three
15 of these 13 witnesses already appeared during the Prosecution's case as
16 expert witnesses.
17 [The witness takes the stand]
18 JUDGE ORIE: As such, the Chamber understands the Prosecution to
19 seek their recall to present further evidence. As the Chamber still has
20 to decide whether the disclosed reports fall into the expertise of these
21 experts, the Chamber instructs the Defence to include its position on the
22 procedural question of recalling the witnesses in its Rule 94 bis notice.
23 Good morning, Mr. Kralj. Mr. Kralj, before we continue I'd like
24 to remind you that you are still bound by the solemn declaration you have
25 given at the beginning of your testimony. And Mr. McCloskey will now
1 continue his cross-examination.
2 Mr. McCloskey.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. And good morning.
4 WITNESS: SLAVKO KRALJ [Resumed]
5 [Witness answered through interpreter]
6 Cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey: [Continued]
7 Q. Good morning, Colonel.
8 A. Good morning to everybody.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: And could we go back to the intercept that we
10 left off, it was 65 ter 25113.
11 Q. And, Colonel, as you'll recall, I believe you agreed with me that
12 this was an intercept where Mr. Obucina was calling and co-ordinating
13 with General Tolimir about issues related to approvals for Srebrenica.
14 And just taking a look at that, do you still agree that that -- that's
15 fundamentally what this is about?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. All right. And if I could, I want to ask you about one comment
18 that the General Tolimir makes, it's near the bottom of the page. It's
19 the box where we see three lines of his speaking. And Tolimir says:
20 "The commander gave him approval for what he requested. Milos
21 failed to understand and the commander approved what can go in and out of
23 Now can you tell us who General Tolimir, in your view, is
24 referring to when he says "the commander"?
25 A. In my view, the commander would be General Mladic.
1 Q. And you gave the same answer to Madam Fauveau in 2008, did you
2 not? In your answer, you said:
3 "Always Mladic. General Mladic."
4 Does that sound familiar?
5 A. When the term "commander in the Main Staff" is mentioned, then it
6 would be General Mladic, and yes, it does sound familiar.
7 Q. All right.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would offer this into evidence.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 25113 will be Exhibit P6857.
11 JUDGE ORIE: P6857 is admitted.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY:
13 Q. Now you also talked about the topic of the final clearance for a
14 convoy into the Republika Srpska, and would you agree with me that that
15 was always given by the Main Staff? They were always the ones that, for
16 security reasons and others, determined the security route and gave the
17 final clearance for a convoy to enter?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. So if General Mladic did not want a particular humanitarian or
20 UNPROFOR convoy to go into the RS, he could prevent that from happening?
21 A. Your question is not very clear when you say if he wanted or
22 didn't want a convoy to go through. If there was a reason, a convoy
23 would not be allowed to go through and it really did not depend on what
24 Mladic wanted or didn't want.
25 Q. Could General Mladic order a convoy not to go through?
1 A. The General could give that order but if there was a reason
2 behind that, a justified reason.
3 Q. Colonel, General Mladic controlled what went in and out of the
4 Republika Srpska, didn't he?
5 A. Occasionally he did have an insight into those things, but that
6 was not his only task.
7 Q. I think we can leave it at that. Let's go on to another subject.
8 You talked a lot about what you had learned about what was going on in
9 the enclaves.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'd like to go to 65 ter 04819.
11 Q. And, sir, I -- this is a photograph that was taken by a Dutch
12 soldier, a lieutenant named Johannes Rutten who testified in April 2000
13 in the Krstic case that this was a photograph he took during his time at
14 Srebrenica, which was from January 1995 to July 1995. He explained that
15 this was the UNPROFOR garbage truck dumping their garbage on a hill-side
16 and this was the population -- some of the population of Srebrenica
17 foraging [Realtime transcript read in error "forging"] for food in their
18 garbage. Did you know that in the winter of 1995 this is what the
19 population of -- some of the population of Srebrenica was doing?
20 A. I've not seen this photo before. I'm not familiar with this. It
21 may have been edited.
22 Q. You don't -- you don't know -- you didn't have any information
23 that the population was starving during the winter of 1995?
24 A. No.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. McCloskey, you are recorded as having said
1 "forging for food" when you talked about this part of the population that
2 was at the dump. The transcript says you said "forging." I don't think
3 you said "forging."
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think we can simplify it by saying "looking"
5 for food.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would have meant another word and I -- but all
8 right. I would offer this into evidence and I can offer the four pages
9 of Rutten's testimony that would authenticate it given the challenge of
10 the witness. And Rutten's four pages are 65 ter 31494, pages 1 through 4
11 in e-court.
12 MR. LUKIC: We would object to introducing the statement of the
13 witness in this way.
14 JUDGE ORIE: And reasons for your objections are?
15 MR. LUKIC: I think that the witness should be here and testify
16 in this case.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would agree had it been a full statement,
19 92 bis or -- would apply. But this is four pages where he merely
20 authenticates that he took this photograph, gives us the time-frame, and
21 what he believes is happening in it. Perhaps Mr. Lukic would agree with
22 my summary of what he said. I'm fine with either. But I think given
23 that what the witness has said, that it would be helpful and important
24 for the Court to have this factual information.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, does Rule 92 bis not apply if you
1 have a short statement or just a couple of -- a short testimony?
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: I don't -- I think the Court has quite a bit of
3 discretion in this area and that if it is something that is simple and
4 direct as something as a -- the authentication of a photograph, that you
5 have the discretion, I think under 89(C), to make an exception. And I
6 don't think 92 bis is all-encompassing to something this brief.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, any further submission?
8 MR. LUKIC: I have nothing further, Your Honour.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: And I can assist the Court by briefly noting a
10 couple of the comments that Lieutenant Rutten makes so you can see what
11 we're talking about specifically.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps the issue is we're hearing at this moment
13 the evidence of this witness. The witness says that he doesn't know
14 anything about it, so that's through the back door now the -- we start
15 with the paragraph, the photograph which in itself which shows a kind of
16 two vehicles, one picture taken from one vehicle, a large group of people
17 elsewhere, and you interpret what it is. And then the witness says, "I
18 do not know anything about it." And now to -- the issue is -- Mr. Lukic,
19 apart from that this witness doesn't know anything about it, is there any
20 disagreement on what this picture purports to present?
21 MR. LUKIC: This is the first time I have made connection between
22 the picture and his testimony, so I'm just reading the testimony --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
24 MR. LUKIC: -- in front of me.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Then if you would do that, we will have it marked
1 for identification, the photograph, for the time being, and we'll
2 consider your -- your tendering of a portion of the transcript of the
3 testimony of Mr. Rutten.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: And, Mr. President, if I could, as I know you
5 have explained many times, that -- that even if --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic should speak not at the volume audible
7 for others.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: It -- that even if a witness doesn't know
9 anything about a particular document, if they are speaking to the subject
10 of the document, and of course this witness has spoken to restrictions
11 and the condition of the Muslims at length --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- in his statement and in his testimony, and of
14 course this document goes to the heart of that issue.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll consider the matter.
16 Madam Registrar, could you please assign numbers first of all to
17 the photograph and second to the excerpt of the testimony of Mr. Rutten.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the photograph having 65 ter 04819
19 will be assigned number P6858. And the four-page statement having 65 ter
20 number 31494 will receive number P6859.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Both are marked for identification.
22 Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY:
24 Q. Colonel, I want to call your attention to a statement made from a
25 tape that this Trial Chamber has heard where Colonel Obradovic identified
1 the voice on the tape as General Mladic.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: And this was in P1789.
3 Q. And the statement says:
4 "How many humanitarian aid convoys will," and then it's
5 incomprehensible, "about which they argued with me for a year and until I
6 took everything did not let anything through. I would not have taken
7 Srebrenica or Zepa if I had not starved them in the winter. Since
8 February, I let through only one or two convoys."
9 This was Mladic's attitude towards the enclaves, wasn't it? From
10 your work with him.
11 A. I have never heard of this statement. I am not familiar with a
12 position of his towards convoys. I only know what was noted on the
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. Let's go to 65 ter 31500.
15 Q. It's on the same subject. I'm showing you an outgoing code cable
16 to Annan from -- in the United Nations New York from Akashi. And I want
17 to take you to the second paragraph.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: It should be probably page 2 in the B/C/S.
19 Q. And here it says:
20 "None of the UNHCR convoys to the enclaves have received
21 clearance. The Srebrenica convoy has been cancelled. The Sarajevo
22 convoy has not left Zenica. The BSA," meaning Bosnian Serb army, "are
23 demanding a 50-50 share of the aid to which UNHCR will not agree. The
24 UNPF resupply convoys have suffered a similar fate. The two convoys to
25 Gorazde were blocked by the BSA and have returned to Sarajevo. The
1 convoy scheduled to depart from Zagreb for Sarajevo has not yet received
3 And we can see a date of 14 June 1995. So this demand for a
4 50-50 share was -- of the convoys would have been something you must have
5 known about in your work. Where was this coming from?
6 A. The state co-ordination humanitarian body was in charge of the
7 distribution policy. Therefore, I'm not familiar with this, and I'm also
8 not familiar with the contents of this document.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would offer this into evidence.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 31500 will be Exhibit P6860.
12 JUDGE ORIE: P6860 is admitted.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we go now to 65 ter 17806.
14 Q. Colonel, as we're waiting, this is another outgoing code cable to
15 Annan from Akashi. Akashi is in Zagreb by the way. This one is now
16 dated 6 July.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: And if we could go to page -- well, let's see
18 that first page just to -- so we can orient ourselves to the people and
19 the dates. We see its subject is entitled: "Humanitarian Situation in
20 Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina."
21 Now let's go to page 2 for the English under paragraph 4. And it
22 should be page 2 to 3 in the B/C/S.
23 Q. Take a bit of time to read it. And we can see under the eastern
24 enclaves that it says:
25 "UNHCR aid deliveries to the eastern enclaves were generally good
1 in April 1995 when some 82 per cent of the food target was met. UNHCR
2 was also successful in gaining fairly regular access to the enclaves in
3 early May. However, due to the deteriorating situation following the May
4 air strikes, UNHCR was forced to cancel some convoys to Gorazde for
5 security reasons while others were denied access by the Bosnian Serbs.
6 Access to Srebrenica and Zepa was, however, unhindered. In June, UNHCR
7 access to Srebrenica and Zepa has been sporadic: after a one month
8 period, Zepa received its first convoy of 50 MT of mainly food supplies
9 on 21 June, and after six months of clearance refusal, one convoy with
10 shelter material reached Srebrenica. Srebrenica also received a number
11 of food convoys in June which helped to alleviate the increasingly
12 difficult food situation in the pocket (UNHCR was only able to meet some
13 30 per cent of the food aid target in June). So far, only one UNHCR
14 convoy has got into the enclaves in July - a 64 MT convoy to Srebrenica
15 on 4 July. There have been reports by the Bosnian Government about the
16 death by starvation of 13 civilians in Srebrenica in the past week.
17 UNHCR is not in a position to confirm these reports but their Srebrenica
18 office assessment is that although the food situation is precarious, it
19 has not reached a level where the population is facing malnutrition."
20 Now before getting to the part about the condition of the
21 population, this description of some material making it and some material
22 not making it, is that generally, in your view, a fair reflection of what
23 was allowed in to Srebrenica and the other areas discussed in this -- in
24 this document?
25 A. I don't know what you mean when you say "a fair reflection" of
2 Q. Does this look relatively accurate? I know it was a long time
3 ago, but does this look to you to be a -- an relatively accurate or
4 closely accurate account of the work you were doing, given your close
5 involvement in these approvals?
6 A. I was not involved in giving approvals, rather in the drafting of
7 certain documents when Colonel Djurdjic was not there so that something
8 that had been approved could get through, but this information is
9 relevant and I wouldn't want to give my comments on what Yasushi Akashi
10 is writing. I hadn't received this information. I hadn't seen this.
11 As for the dead, I am quite skeptical because in order to reach
12 loftier objectives, we know that they were carrying out propaganda in
13 order to get a military intervention. Died of hunger. No one died of
14 hunger in this war.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would offer this document into evidence.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 17806 will receive number P6861.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Can we now go to 65 ter 04394.
20 Q. As we're waiting for this, sir, I can tell you this is a combat
21 report from the army of the BH command, the 28th Division, in Srebrenica,
22 in the name of their Chief of Staff Ramiz -- Major Ramiz Becirovic. And
23 it's dated 6th July 1995 which is the same date as the UN document we
24 saw. Now you may also recall that 6 July was the date that the attack by
25 the VRS on the Srebrenica enclave began, just as a historical reference.
1 So that first page where they are talking about the actions of the
2 aggressor is not something I'm interested in with you.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: So if we could go to the next page in the English
4 and in the B/C/S. And if we could go under the situation of the -- the
5 humanitarian situation.
6 Q. And I would point out, and I think you'll agree, that this combat
7 report is from the 28th Division to its own command. It's not to any
8 international. It's to its own command. And let's look at -- see what
9 they're telling their command about the humanitarian situation. And I
10 quote under paragraph 4:
11 "The situation continues to be exceptionally difficult. The food
12 convoy announced for today has not arrived. Elderly and weak persons are
13 in an exceptionally difficult situation due to starvation. The first
14 people to die of hunger in the area of Srebrenica after the
15 demilitarisation were registered today. I request that every effort be
16 made to deliver food to our area."
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, now, I said several times today that you
18 should speak at an non-audible volume. Now take that seriously
19 because -- you can whisper if you want to consult with counsel, otherwise
20 we will have to go back to the system with the little notes and that's
21 not what you prefer, I think.
22 Please proceed.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY:
24 Q. So again I'll ask you, were you getting intelligence reports or
25 other information that you were able to intercept from the Muslims
1 speaking to each other that indicated the people of Srebrenica were
2 dieing of hunger, some people were?
3 A. I'm not aware of that.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would offer this document into evidence.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 04394 will be Exhibit P6862.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY:
9 Q. Now lastly I have one last document on a topic that you discussed
10 yesterday and that is medical evacuations. So I want to take you to --
11 the year is now 1994 for a document that's dated 4 November 1994. And it
12 has to do with a situation prior to that in July 1994, I believe. And we
13 understand that you did not become part of the Main Staff until
14 November 1994, but I recall you did tell us that you learned quite a bit
15 about what had happened before from the documents there.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: So if we could have 65 ter 3489 before us.
17 Q. All right. We can see from this that this is a report and it's
18 just the front page of the report. And it, as we can see in the middle
19 of that front paragraph, it's from the Special Rapporteur
20 Tadeusz Mazowiecki on the human rights situation in the territory of the
21 former Yugoslavia. There is many pages to this document, but I am only
22 interested in three, this first page, so you can see what it is about.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: And then I want to go to page 22 in the B/C/S,
24 page 17 in the English, entitled: "Interference with Humanitarian Aid and
1 Q. So looking at paragraph 65 down at the bottom. I won't read it
2 at this point. We see, as we scan it briefly, it's talking about thefts
3 from convoys, which is not something I want to ask you about.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: And if we could go to the next page. In the
5 English it should be page 18.
6 Q. And it notes at the top of the page:
7 "Bosnian Serb de facto authorities have also interfered with
8 humanitarian activities in Gorazde by their refusal to permit medical
9 evacuation of seriously ill people by helicopter. On 21 July 1994, the
10 Special Rapporteur issued a public appeal calling for the immediate
11 reversal of an evacuation refusal which was endangering the lives of some
12 34 people. The Bosnian Serb de facto authorities eventually allowed an
13 evacuation only on 5 October 1994, when 24 patients were taken from the
14 enclave. The delay in giving consent resulted in the deaths of two
16 Now, I think we recall you earlier saying something to the effect
17 that medical evacuations were allowed. This is obviously a very serious
18 report on the horrible consequences of two people. Was this something
19 that you had heard about when you arrived and started working on these
21 A. As for medical evacuations, it was much safer for these persons
22 to travel by land. Helicopters are very sensitive and certain procedures
23 had to be observed. They had to be announced and there was air control
24 and landing and so on. For medical evacuation or for transporting
25 UNPROFOR officials into the enclaves, when helicopters were used for
1 these purposes, sometimes the Muslim forces would use the corridors
2 allowed for their own helicopters. I saw some records to that effect.
3 And once I had the opportunity of participating in checking a helicopter
4 that was transporting officials from Sarajevo to Gorazde. It had been
5 agreed that the helicopter was supposed to land at the airport, the
6 Heliodrom, the football stadium in Sokolac. And it was checked when it
7 arrived and when it left.
8 So I don't understand. If it wasn't possible to be transported
9 by helicopter, why didn't they ask for a land transportation? I'm also
10 challenging these two victims. There are no names, surnames. Anything
11 can be stated for propaganda purposes.
12 Q. Now would you like to answer the question? Did you hear about
13 this incident, this situation in this report?
14 A. I did not hear about that.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would like to offer, and under the guide-lines,
16 just these three pages so you don't have this entire report. Though I
17 have no objection if for context or for some reason they want the entire
18 report, which I believe is 22 pages of some length.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you're tendering at this moment these three
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 MR. LUKIC: I --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. --
25 MR. LUKIC: Just for the record, we received -- actually, I
1 received this document this morning at half past 8.00, but I do not
3 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Madam Registrar, the number would be?
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the three pages --
5 JUDGE ORIE: They are not uploaded separately?
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: We'll make an A of those pages so that --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then we reserve a number for it. We don't
8 have yet the A number, although we expect that it will be -- where are
9 we? Yes, it's disappeared from my screen.
10 But, Madam Registrar, what we have on our screen at this moment
12 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter 3489, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: 3489A, most likely, still to be uploaded, would
14 receive what number, Madam Registrar?
15 THE REGISTRAR: P6863.
16 JUDGE ORIE: That number is reserved.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we go now to 65 ter 31527 on this same
21 Q. And what you'll -- what you see here, you can see that that's the
22 first page of the classic -- what we've already seen, a translated UN
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could go to the next page. And page 2 in
25 the B/C/S and in the English. I apologise. I believe we've -- we've got
1 it now.
2 Q. So within that translated UNPROFOR request, we see this
3 reference. It's dated 19 July 1994, from UNPROFOR, entitled: "Helicopter
4 medivac from Gorazde."
5 "Could you please approve helicopter medivac of sick and wounded
6 civilians from Gorazde to Sarajevo on Thursday, 21 July ..."
7 Which as we saw was the date in the Mazowiecki report.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You should add 1994.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: 1994, yes.
10 Q. "The BH Command received a letter from the Republika Srpska Army
11 on 18 July," then it gives the number. "The response to this letter is
12 being drafted and will be sent to you as soon as it is ready. However,
13 this medical evacuation has to be done as soon as possible before some
14 patients from the list die."
15 And then it's handwritten: "But Serbs can die."
16 Now, this Serbian version that -- that's a version that you in
17 your team or someone in the Main Staff had translated so it can be
18 properly considered; correct?
19 A. No. We would receive a copy of the English version and a copy of
20 the translation from the office at Pale from the UNPROFOR military
21 observers. We would just compare the translation to see whether it was
22 correct and whether there were any typos on the facts and so on.
23 Q. Sir, you've already gone over similar documents like this where
24 you identified General Mladic's signature. Isn't this a similar UNPROFOR
25 request that you are looking at and people in the VRS are making
1 handwritten notes on?
2 A. I would be interested in what it is that you're asking me.
3 Q. Isn't this one of the requests that was considered by the
4 Main Staff?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And we see it handwritten at the top "ne," no. And with it
7 handwritten: "All of it can be done by land if that is also approved."
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can we go to the top of the page in English?
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Your Honour. This is in --
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: To the far top of the page, please.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY:
12 Q. This is in effect what you had mentioned when I showed you the
13 previous report, that they should go by land. So can you tell us, do you
14 recognise this handwriting where it says "ne" and "all of it can be done
15 by land if that is also approved"? And then there is initials.
16 A. These are the initials of Manojlo Milovanovic.
17 Q. And how about the handwriting that we see there, that "all of it
18 can be done," et cetera?
19 A. Very often he would write using the Latin script. It is his
20 initials. Now, whether it is his handwriting, I cannot say for sure.
21 Q. How about the handwriting where it says, "But Serbs can die"? Do
22 you recognise that?
23 A. No.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would offer this into evidence.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I put another question to the witness --
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Please.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- in this respect.
3 You see on the top of the page in the B/C/S twice handwritten
4 "ne," on the far left and in the middle. Was that a common practice, to
5 put "ne" twice?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was not common practice.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Sorry, I just -- on one question --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, I thought that you would tender this document.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: I was and I'm --
12 JUDGE ORIE: That's the reason why I'm following up.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Please, go ahead. Let me --
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 31527 will receive Exhibit P6864.
15 JUDGE ORIE: P6864 is admitted.
16 Please put your next question to the witness, Mr. McCloskey.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY:
18 Q. These two "nes," can you tell are they the same initials, the
19 same person? Or two different people writing "ne"? If you know.
20 A. I cannot. At the time I wasn't there.
21 Q. All right. So that's in evidence. Last document, Colonel Kralj,
22 last questions.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Can we have -- this -- sorry, it is the same
24 document. It's just another page in it. Slightly confused on that. But
25 it's page 1. And then if we could go to page 1, which is from the
1 Main Staff to the UNPROFOR command.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We are on page 1 of the document -- sorry, which
3 document? Which document do you mean?
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yeah, that's -- that's where we want to be.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Which document is this?
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's now P6864. It's, as you recall, these --
7 these packets came in with the -- first it was the VRS response and then
8 within those responses were copies of the UNPROFOR requests with the VRS
9 notations on them. So now we're going to what the VRS, in the
10 Prosecution's understanding, believe is a response regarding these
11 various convoy requests.
12 And we can see that it's a -- if you -- if we go to the next
13 page, we'll see that it's in the name of Lieutenant-General Milovanovic.
14 So let's go back to the first page.
15 Q. And we see General Milovanovic saying to UNPROFOR on
16 20 July 1994, number 1:
17 "Helicopter medical evacuation on 21 July 1994 from Gorazde to
18 Sarajevo. We insist on equal treatment of the sick Serbs on the Muslim
19 territory and the sick Muslims in the enclaves. We are waiting for your
20 response that you are preparing."
21 And when we look at this in combination to the handwritten note
22 on that same -- on that related request that says "Serbs can die," is
23 this an example of how the Main Staff dealt with these issues, not
24 letting sick Muslims out until sick Serbs are out, playing with lives
25 like that? Is this what it looks like?
1 A. It looks different to me. That sick people are supposed to be
2 treated on the Muslim side as well and that UNPROFOR could assist this
3 treatment on this territory, whereas they only care about Muslims in the
4 enclaves and nobody cares about the Serbs, the sick Serbs in Muslim
5 territory. Probably General Milovanovic had more information about this
6 and that is why he acted in this way. Concrete information.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, I'd offer this into --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- evidence.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness specify.
11 Could you tell us what specific information he had on just this
12 item, that is the -- that is a number of civilians, as it was asked, to
13 be evacuated by helicopter? What was the information he had?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot say because I wasn't there
15 at the time, and I know that they always asked that our people, who were
16 in Sarajevo or in other places under Muslim control, should have
17 appropriate care, receive proper medical care. They did not have that.
18 When they would flee across the lines, they would say that they did not
19 have any kind of care whatsoever, let alone medical care.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Well, these were apparently people that still could
21 cross lines, whereas we are talking about evacuation by helicopter of ill
22 people here.
23 Now you earlier, when asked about it without these details, you
24 told us more or less that it required all kind of preparations and I
25 think we see in the follow-up of this document, we see how the request
1 was made, what details were given, et cetera, et cetera. Now, you gave
2 us in earlier answers the impression that the Main Staff was very much
3 willing to co-operate if proper procedures were followed, whereas the
4 document we have now before us says, "No, we don't do it if you don't do
5 the same." That is -- that has got nothing to do with preparations and
6 safe landing, et cetera. It's just a -- if I could say, a political
7 statement. If you don't do it, we'll not do it either. That's a
8 different type of picture than you gave when answering previous
10 Could you explain why the documents depict a situation which is
11 not -- seems not to be fully in line with what you told us in your
12 previous answers?
13 Now, it's the last time, Mr. Mladic. It's really, I'm -- you
14 speak, either you have to wait until the break or you use notes. It's
15 now the fifth time today that I have to say it to you and there is no
16 need for that. You fully understand it. You should just do it.
17 Witness, could you -- could you explain why the impression you
18 give in your answers is quite different from what we see in this document
19 and in other documents we've seen before about convoys and humanitarian
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this was an individual
22 case. Every case was dealt with on its own and there could have been
23 different influences. In this specific case, a possibility was
24 considered to improve the situation of the sick and frail who were in the
25 territory under Muslim control. I have no other explanation. And this
1 is all I know.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it's -- it sounds as if it's a general policy
3 statement rather than a decision in an individual case. Was this the
4 policy, not to evacuate sick if not certain conditions were met in the
5 opposite direction?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it was not a general policy.
7 JUDGE ORIE: What then explains that it's used here as an
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It says here: "We are awaiting
10 your answer." Obviously, there had been previous discussions about this
11 topic, because it says that an answer is in the pipeline and is awaited.
12 JUDGE ORIE: But the line before it reads:
13 "We insist on equal treatment of the sick Serbs on the Muslim
14 territory and the sick Muslims in the enclaves."
15 That sounds very much as a general policy statement, isn't it?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, no policy was within my
18 JUDGE ORIE: We take a break.
19 Mr. McCloskey, where are we as far as time is concerned?
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: This document, of course, is already in evidence.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Pardon my confusion. And the excerpt pages from
23 65 ter 03489 have been assigned P06863. They've now been uploaded in
24 e-court under 65 ter 03489A. And that ends my cross-examination.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. McCloskey, is this 3489 or 4389?
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yeah, 03489A.
2 JUDGE ORIE: A.
3 Madam Registrar, I think we had reserved a number for it already.
4 That was --
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the number reserved was P6863.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
7 Mr. Kralj, we take a break. We would like to see you back after
8 the break for re-examination, if there is any need for re-examination.
9 You may follow the usher. Well, you're doing it already.
10 [The witness stands down]
11 JUDGE ORIE: We take a break and will resume at five minutes to
13 --- Recess taken at 10.38 a.m.
14 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.
15 JUDGE ORIE: We'll wait for the witness to be escorted into the
17 [The witness takes the stand]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kralj, you'll be re-examined by Mr. Lukic.
19 Mr. Lukic, please proceed.
20 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:
22 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Kralj, good morning once again.
23 A. Good morning.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to call up P6855.
25 Q. You've seen this document, Mr. Kralj. It is dated 12 September
1 1992. It was issued by the command of the 1st Krajina Corps. There is a
2 reference to Major Slavko Kralj, you. You were asked about this
3 document, whether you had sent intelligence to your command. I would
4 have a question about this document as well. Did UNPROFOR observers whom
5 you escorted know that you reported back to your command?
6 A. UNPROFOR observers did not know that.
7 Q. So how did they perceive your role? If you know, from
8 conversations with them.
9 A. They knew that my role was to receive them at the border
10 crossing, since they arrived from Croatia, and to escort them along the
11 route of the withdrawal of forces north of the Sava River where they were
12 supposed to carry out controls in keeping with the agreements. I was
13 their guide, their interpreter, their escort, and their security detail
14 on that route. Having inspected the area, they returned to their
15 original base in Croatia.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. And now I would like to
18 call up P1469.
19 Q. This is Directive 7. My learned friend McCloskey showed it to
20 you yesterday. This is the cover letter sent by Manojlo Milovanovic.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We are interested in the last page in
22 both versions.
23 Q. You can see here that the document was signed by
24 President Radovan Karadzic. You told us that you didn't know anything
25 about directives, but since you were shown this one, I'll try to deal
1 with contestable parts very quickly. In this document we are interested
2 in the page that the Prosecutor showed you.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In English it would be page 14 and in
4 B/C/S page 21.
5 Q. [Microphone not activated]
6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Microphone.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Under 6 is something that we will have to remember because we are
10 going to see another document. I'm interested in 6.1, actually: "Moral
11 and psychological support."
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] On the following page or, rather, two
13 pages further on, because there is one empty page.
14 Q. You were shown that this directive says that:
15 "Through the relevant stated military organs responsible for work
16 with UNPROFOR and humanitarian organisations shall, through the planned
17 and unobtrusively restrictive issuing of permits, reduce and limit the
18 logistics support of UNPROFOR to the enclaves and the supply of material
19 resources to the Muslim population, thus making them dependent on our
20 good will while at the same time avoiding condemnation by the
21 international community and international public opinion."
22 On yesterday's record, page 65, line 21, you said that
23 General Ratko Mladic and Djuric were responsible for the implementation
24 of this directive. [In English] Only it's Djurdjic.
25 [Interpretation] And now let's look at Directive 7.1, drafted by
1 General Ratko Mladic, concerning the implementation of this directive
2 signed by President Radovan Karadzic.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm interested in P1470.
4 JUDGE ORIE: You said "drafted." Signed or drafted?
5 MR. LUKIC: It was signed.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's not the same. You said it was drafted
7 by General Mladic.
8 MR. LUKIC: Maybe I -- I did.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 MR. LUKIC: But it was drafted and signed by Mr. -- or it was
11 signed by General Mladic --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Well, then you're giving -- you're giving evidence.
13 MR. LUKIC: Okay. We'll -- first I want to show the first page
14 to the witness and then we'll see the last page.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Mr. Kralj, what we have before us is a directive for further
18 combat operations, operative number 7/1.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In keeping with the words of
20 Judge Orie, let's look at the last page in both versions.
21 Q. Do you recognise General Mladic's signature here?
22 A. Yes.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now we need to go to page 5 in
24 B/C/S and page 6 in English.
25 Q. The same part of the directive which concerns support for combat
1 activities, again bullet point 6.1 which concerns moral and psychological
2 support. Look at that part and then we'll move to the following page.
3 MR. LUKIC: If we can please scroll down to the end of the page.
4 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Kralj, please look at the bottom of this
5 page and then we will go to the following page. Did you read the bottom
6 of the page under 6.1?
7 A. Yes.
8 MR. LUKIC: Can we go to the next page in the B/C/S version and
9 scroll down to the bottom of the page in English version.
10 Q. [Interpretation] Are you done reading?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. In this Directive 7.1 which was written by General Mladic, did
13 you come across the word from Directive 7 by President Karadzic; i.e., to
14 restrict, reduce the logistical support by UNPROFOR and the supply to the
15 Muslim population?
16 A. In this directive there is no such thing.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic --
18 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: -- it took us five minutes to establish that those
20 words do not appear in 7.1, which, irrespective of what conclusions you
21 would draw from that, seems not to be in dispute between Prosecution and
22 Defence, is it, Mr. McCloskey?
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, it's not, Mr. President.
24 JUDGE ORIE: No. Therefore why do we need five minutes to
25 establish that?
1 MR. LUKIC: Because I objected yesterday that Mr. McCloskey was
2 showing to this witness only --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Then you put --
4 MR. LUKIC: -- directive 7.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Then you put to the witness 7.1 and you say to the
6 witness, "Mr. Witness, I put 7.1 now to you. The text which your
7 attention was drawn to yesterday does not appear in this text."
8 Prosecution and Defence agree on that. That takes 30 seconds and then
9 you ask the questions you want to ask the witness.
10 MR. LUKIC: And then you would say that I was leading the
12 JUDGE ORIE: No, if you would --
13 MR. LUKIC: And I don't have the right to lead it -- lead him.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, if the parties agree on a matter -- and I
15 think I'm insisting again and again and again to see what is in dispute
16 and what is not in dispute and to focus what is in dispute.
17 MR. LUKIC: Okay.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Now, there is one thing which is not in dispute is
19 that this text does not appear in 7.1 where it appears in 7.
20 Am I wrong, Mr. McCloskey?
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, that's always been the case.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Apart from that, 7.1 is in evidence so to that
23 extent it would not be leading. It doesn't elicit any new evidence
24 triggered by your pointing at this, so therefore don't waste time,
25 Mr. Lukic. Be focused and try to get from this witness what you are
1 seeking to get from him and not spend time on the issues as I explained
2 it to you.
3 Please put the questions to the witness which are relevant.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Mr. Kralj, we claim that the Prosecutor informed you only about
6 Directive 7 yesterday. They didn't show you Directive 7.1. All the
7 answers you provided about that excluded Directive 7.1. That's what I'm
8 going to ask you. If there is Directive 7.1 which was signed by
9 General Mladic, the Army of Republika Srpska and you personally, do you
10 comply with Directive 7 which was signed by President Karadzic or do you
11 comply with Directive 7.1 which was signed by General Mladic?
12 A. The VRS and I personally would comply with directives, i.e.
13 orders, issued by General Mladic.
14 Q. Yesterday you said that the implementation of Directive 7 was in
15 the hands of General Mladic. Was Directive 7.1 the way for him to
16 implement the directive that he had received from President Karadzic?
17 A. This was the way to write General Mladic's units, directives
18 based on President Karadzic's directive.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, let me try to put a primarily relevant
20 question to the witness.
21 Having established that the text about the convoys about the
22 humanitarian aid does not appear in 7.1 signed by Mr. Mladic, where it
23 does appear in Directive 7, do you know why that text does not appear in
24 7.1 where it did appear in Directive number 7?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
2 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let us now take a look at P6857.
4 Q. You were shown this conversation. You say that it took place
5 between Mr. Obucina and General Tolimir. Mr. Obucina says he asked you
6 about that exchange for Srebrenica. Were some humanitarian aid exchanged
7 with Srebrenica or does this have to do with something else? This text,
8 does it have anything to do with humanitarian aid? Can you see that?
9 A. That cannot be seen, that this has to do with humanitarian aid.
10 Exchanges often took place in respect of military observers who were in
11 safe areas.
12 Q. All right. Were prisoners exchanged?
13 A. There were exchanges of prisoners, too.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let us take a look at document --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask one additional question in relation to
18 On the 23rd of June, 1995, was there any exchange of prisoners
19 being prepared at that moment?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Were there any prisoners exchanged in, well, let's
22 say, the weeks following the 23rd of June, 1995?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Who was Milos in this conversation, if you know?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Milos was the chief of the sector
1 for civilian affairs and a member of the state co-ordination body for
2 humanitarian co-operation, and within that body there was another member
3 who dealt with the subject of prisoners.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Was Milos in any way involved and was this committee
5 directly involved in the exchange of prisoners?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was involved.
7 JUDGE ORIE: In what way?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He had a person who carried out
9 prisoner exchanges.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Who was that person?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It can be seen there in that
12 document. I cannot recall, exactly.
13 JUDGE ORIE: And the -- which document do you exactly mean?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I mean the decision on the
15 establishment of the state co-ordination body of March 1995.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could you give the full name of Milos?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Milos Djurdjic.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Before you get anything out of your pocket -- Mr. Kralj, you're
22 not supposed to use any notes of yours here.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection, that's not correct. And people have
25 been allowed to review their notes --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Well, yes --
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- to refresh their recollection, and so
3 directing something like that is not his position in any event.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Well, Mr. McCloskey, but never without the approval
5 of the Chamber. To that extent, I would say Mr. Lukic is perfectly
7 Perhaps the most elegant way of dealing with it, before you do
8 this, could you tell us what you intend to be shown and then ask the
9 Chamber for permission. That's the elegant way to deal with it, but
10 basically I understand your observation. You wanted to stop the
11 witness --
12 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: -- without permission to look at it.
14 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: And that's appreciated.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. And, Mr. President, the Prosecution would
17 like to see what he had in his pocket as you might also understand.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Well, we are not usually doing searches in pockets
19 of witnesses, but let's -- let me -- Mr. Kralj, but what kind of document
20 or piece of paper did you want to consult when you took it out of your
21 pocket? What is it?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that I had the name of that
23 person who was in the co-ordination body and who was in charge of the
24 exchange of prisoners. I think that I had it written down.
25 JUDGE ORIE: For any specific purpose that you have it with you
1 here, or do you have a list of things that you should not forget about
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Quite simply so that I wouldn't
4 forget if I'm asked.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. I do not --
6 MR. LUKIC: I have no problem with that. I can deal with this
7 with the witness.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll leave it to that.
9 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Mr. Kralj, this is going to take up a bit of our time, but if you
12 are consulting something -- I mean, I don't know what it is that you
13 have. We will have to hand that over to the Prosecution, then.
14 A. I give up on showing anything.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Well --
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Let us proceed, then.
18 MR. LUKIC: Let us see D366, please.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps while waiting for that, I would like to seek
20 one matter.
21 I asked you, Witness, whether Milos was in any way involved in
22 the exchange of prisoners and whether the committee was, and your answer
23 was: "He was involved." Was the committee involved in the exchange of
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The committee was involved in the
1 exchange of prisoners, and Milos was supposed to secure unhindered
2 passage in agreement with the army.
3 MR. LUKIC: I misspoke. It should be D336.
4 [Interpretation] So this is the Official Gazette of
5 Republika Srpska. And on the next page in the B/C/S version, and the
6 third page of the English version. Perhaps -- actually the fourth page
7 in the English version.
8 [In English] Everything is not translated. Let's try with the
9 second page. Well, then, the first page. Maybe only this is translated
10 into English. That's the correct page. Thank you.
11 Q. [Interpretation] We see a decision here on forming a state
12 committee for co-operation with the United Nations and international
13 humanitarian organisations. You've mentioned mid-March 1995 a moment
14 ago. As regards this committee, yesterday you saw that
15 Dr. Nikola Koljevic was the chairman of this committee, that
16 Maksim Stanisic was the deputy chairman, and then there were nine members
17 that were listed. Did you ever attend meetings of this body?
18 A. I was aware of the work of that body, and with Colonel Milos I
19 visited the premises and took part in one session.
20 Q. Did you see how this body reached its decisions? Did they take a
21 vote? Could you explain that to us? Could you tell us how the
22 decision-making took place?
23 A. Majority vote.
24 Q. All right. Colonel Milos Djurdjic, I assume, had one vote?
25 A. Just one vote.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We are done with this document.
3 Could we now take a look at P6860, please.
4 Q. Do you remember this document? You have already seen it today.
5 The date is the 14th of June, 1995. At this time, that is to say,
6 June 1995, were Serb positions already bombed by NATO forces -- or,
7 rather, May 1995. Do you recall?
8 A. The bombing started at the end of May 1995.
9 Q. At that moment, did the Serb side believe that UNPROFOR had sided
10 with the enemy side?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Was UNPROFOR informed even before the bombing that if bombing
13 does take place they would be considered to be the enemy party?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Was UNPROFOR informed after the bombing started that the Serb
16 side considered them to be an enemy in this conflict?
17 A. They were not considered to be the enemy until the very beginning
18 of the bombing.
19 Q. Did the Serb side have any information to the effect that within
20 UNPROFOR there were people who were navigating NATO air strikes, leading
21 them to Serb positions?
22 A. The Serb side had intelligence to the effect that in the
23 territory there were people who could and were equipped to guide NATO
24 aircraft so that they could hit targets as precisely as possible.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could I take you back to one of my
1 questions I asked you a while ago; that is, whether the Main Staff
2 considered UNPROFOR to be the enemy in terms of the armed conflict. You
3 then said no. I now do understand that on from a certain point in time
4 they did, so your previous answer was at least not the whole of the
5 truth. Would you agree with me?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My answer was the truth, but the
7 situation on the ground led UNPROFOR to the position of a party to the
8 conflict once the bombing started.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That means, therefore, that your answer was
10 part of the truth because it's valid only for a certain period of time
11 and not, when the question was asked without any restrictions, is not a
12 complete answer to the question?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. At the same time, what about UNPROFOR rapid deployment forces?
17 Did they bomb the Serb side? Do you know about that?
18 A. I do not know about that specifically.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Was it UNPROFOR, Mr. Lukic, that bombed?
20 MR. LUKIC: That's part of UNPROFOR.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Not NATO.
22 MR. LUKIC: Rapid force. On Mount Igman. Rapid force, it was
23 part of UNPROFOR.
24 Q. [Interpretation] Although this position had been taken, did the
25 VRS and the Main Staff of the VRS continue to co-operate with UNPROFOR?
1 A. The situation was normalised and normal co-operation continued
2 after a brief period of time.
3 JUDGE ORIE: What time does the witness have on his mind? Was
4 this after the Srebrenica take-over or before the take-over of Srebrenica
5 that the situation was normalised again?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After the take-over of Srebrenica.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
8 Please proceed.
9 MR. LUKIC: Give me one second.
10 Q. [Interpretation] Although NATO bombarded Serbian positions with
11 UNPROFOR's help, was humanitarian aid delivered to the enclaves in May
12 and June?
13 A. Humanitarian aid did arrive both in May and June.
14 Q. Very well.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now let's see P6860, please.
16 [In English] P6861.
17 Q. [Interpretation] Once again we can see a UN report which was sent
18 to Mr. Annan in New York. My learned friend showed you bullet point 4 in
19 this report.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would therefore kindly ask the same
21 page to be displayed on the screen now. [In English] So it's the next
22 page in B/C/S as well, please.
23 Q. [Interpretation] In the report itself, although we don't have it
24 on the screen -- oh, no, we do have it. It says UNHCR was forced to
25 cancelled some convoys to Gorazde for security reasons, while others were
1 denied access by the Bosnian Serbs. In June, UNHCR access to Srebrenica
2 and Zepa has been sporadic. Did you in the Main Staff know, were you
3 privy to the information that the Muslim side in Srebrenica reported over
4 40.000 people residing in Srebrenica? As a matter of fact, the real
5 number was about 34.000.
6 JUDGE ORIE: If you are concerned about being blamed for leading,
7 Mr. Lukic, you whisper already the answer in the ears of the witness,
8 isn't it? That's what we call leading, yes.
9 MR. LUKIC: I'll move on.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Well, we could ask the witness whether he has any
11 knowledge about the number of the population being reported by the
12 Muslims. You could ask that. If he knows, he can tell us.
13 Witness, did you have access to any information provided by the
14 Muslims about the number of people living in the Srebrenica area?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not have access to that
16 information then. I only learnt that here at the Tribunal.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
18 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
19 Q. [Interpretation] This report is dated 6 July 1995. It was
20 compiled on the 6th of July, 1995, in New York. It says in this report,
21 towards the end of bullet point 4 in the last quarter of that
22 paragraph --
23 MR. LUKIC: We'll need the next page in B/C/S version. We
24 have --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, you say this was a document drafted in
1 New York. From what I read, it is sent by Akashi to Annan --
2 MR. LUKIC: Ah, to -- sorry.
3 JUDGE ORIE: -- and that Akashi is located in Zagreb.
4 MR. LUKIC: Zagreb. My mistake.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it's --
6 MR. LUKIC: I stand corrected.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but it's an important matter.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] ...
9 JUDGE ORIE: It is a hidden way of leading as well, Mr. --
10 MR. LUKIC: I apologise, I stand corrected.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then please proceed.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Mr. Kralj, I apologise. I misspoke. The document was drafted on
14 the 6th of July, 1995, by Mr. Akashi in Zagreb. It says in the report:
15 The Bosnian government was informed about 13 civilians in Srebrenica
16 in -- who died of starvation last week. Well, that was in June, that's
17 when the first people died of starvation. You said that the Muslim side
18 used that as propaganda and that you did not believe such information.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now I would like to call up the
20 following document that was shown to you by the Prosecutor, and that was
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, again, if a document is dated the
23 6th of July and if people died the last week, 13, then that's not in
24 June, that is mainly in July and perhaps to some extent in June. You --
25 MR. LUKIC: Last week.
1 JUDGE ORIE: -- are giving interpretation -- last week, that is
2 the week --
3 MR. LUKIC: From the 6th. Last week from the 6th starts seven
4 days before or ends 14 days before that date.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just have a look --
6 MR. LUKIC: That's how I at least understand that.
7 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand "last week" to mean the seven days
8 before the date when --
9 MR. LUKIC: At least.
10 JUDGE ORIE: -- a document is -- what?
11 MR. LUKIC: At least. At least seven days before. Or 14,
12 14 days before. It's last week anyways and we'll see what the next
13 document says on that topic, the document that is in front of us. This
14 is a document --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just see. One second, please.
16 MR. LUKIC: -- composed by the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina,
17 Muslim side, on the --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's first try to establish.
19 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: If I write something on the 6th of July and I'm
21 talking about the last week, my understanding is that that's the seven
22 days preceding the 6th of July. Would we agree on that?
23 MR. LUKIC: Even if I agree with that, I don't have to change
24 my --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, fine.
1 MR. LUKIC: -- my questions.
2 JUDGE ORIE: But you said it was in June, whereas for me it's at
3 least --
4 MR. LUKIC: Beginning of July.
5 JUDGE ORIE: -- five days in July, yes.
6 MR. LUKIC: Yeah, okay.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Please proceed.
8 MR. LUKIC: The same day, 6th of July, we have another document
9 composed by the Army of B&H.
10 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Kralj, the date is 6th July 1995 and the
11 time is 1700 hours.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We are interested in the last page in
13 both versions of the document, bullet point 4, and the title is:
14 "Humanitarian Situation."
15 Q. I'm going to read so you don't have to if the letters are too
17 "The situation continues to be exceptionally difficult. The food
18 convoy announced for today has not arrived."
19 This is the day when combat started as you could see in the first
20 sentence of the document.
21 "The elderly and the frail are in an exceptionally difficult
22 situation due to starvation. The first people to die of hunger in the
23 area of Srebrenica after the demilitarisation were recorded today."
24 Again, no names of those who allegedly starved to death. Would
25 you agree with me -- or rather, in your view, does this document
1 contradict the one that was sent out by Mr. Akashi?
2 JUDGE ORIE: That's not a question for the witness. That's a
3 question that, whether it contradicts or not, is an interpretation of a
4 text. If the witness knows anything about those who died and when they
5 died, we'd like to hear that. But whether one document which is not
6 written by the witness contradicts another document which is not written
7 by the witness either is not a question you'd put to a witness. It's a
8 matter which may be argued among the parties but is not a matter of
9 knowledge of facts.
10 Please proceed.
11 And we could ask the witness whether he knows anything about it.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Mr. Kralj, do you know of anybody who starved to death in
14 Srebrenica on the 6th of July or thereafter? Obviously according to
15 Ramiz Becirovic, before that day from the moment the enclave was
16 demilitarised nobody died of starvation --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Witness -- Mr. Lukic, you are giving evidence.
18 MR. LUKIC: I'm not.
19 JUDGE ORIE: That's not what the document --
20 MR. LUKIC: It's in this document [overlapping speakers] --
21 JUDGE ORIE: No, the document says that it was registered on that
22 day. To die on one day and to register that death as caused by a certain
23 event is not the same. You can ask the witness whether he knows anything
24 about people dying from starvation. If he knows anything and about
25 details, he could tell us. But it's now the second question which is --
1 first of all, the first question was one you couldn't put to the witness.
2 The second one now is misrepresenting the evidence. Would you please put
3 your next question to the witness.
4 MR. LUKIC: We received by another witness's --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Whatever --
6 MR. LUKIC: -- provided by the Prosecution that there is no any
7 kind of register of death in Srebrenica, so --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That means that then the document is false
9 because registration --
10 MR. LUKIC: If there is any register of deceased, we would like
11 to see it.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, we are not discussing at this moment
13 other evidence, that's argument not for the witness. Please put your
14 next question to the witness and refrain from further discussing the
15 matter in the presence of the witness.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Do you know that deaths from starvation were recorded in
18 Srebrenica on the 6th of July or before that or after that, on any date
19 for that matter?
20 A. I don't know that deaths from starvation were recorded in
21 Srebrenica. This is nothing but propaganda that they engaged in very
22 often in order to get as much humanitarian aid as possible.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, whether it's propaganda or not was first of
24 all not asked; and second, is opinion rather than observation of facts.
25 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
1 MR. LUKIC: I apologise, Your Honour. My client just asked,
2 which is -- I don't remember ever happened, that he has to leave the
3 courtroom for a brief period of time.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MR. LUKIC: If we can have either regular break --
6 JUDGE ORIE: We have time for a break.
7 MR. LUKIC: And it's time -- break time anyways.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. How much time would you still need, Mr. Lukic?
9 MR. LUKIC: Not much. I have to see two more documents so
10 probably five, six minutes. But we have to interrupt now --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. We'll do that after the break. But would you
12 carefully consider the type of questions that you are putting to the
13 witness and to stay well within defined lines of what is appropriate to
14 ask in re-examination and what is not.
15 We take a break. The witness can follow the usher.
16 [The witness stands down]
17 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at 20 minutes past 12.00.
18 --- Recess taken at 12.00 p.m.
19 --- On resuming at 12.22 p.m.
20 JUDGE ORIE: While we are waiting for the witness to come in, the
21 Chamber has received the joint submission of the parties regarding the
22 notebooks of Milenko Indjic.
23 The parties have agreed, at least suggested, that the Chamber
24 orders that the notebooks be returned to Witness Indjic and that
25 Mr. Indjic may be released as a witness in this case. The Chamber
1 follows that suggestion, which means that the Registrar -- the Registry
2 is hereby instructed to return the notebooks to Mr. Indjic.
3 [The witness takes the stand]
4 JUDGE ORIE: And that Mr. Indjic be informed that he is released
5 as a witness in this case.
6 Mr. Lukic, we'll be rather strict on time. Please proceed.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. First of all, I'm going to read out that last question of mine,
9 when you included propaganda in your answer, and what I asked you was
10 whether you knew that there were any deaths from hunger in Srebrenica on
11 the 6th of July, before that, after that. That's on page 44, line 10.
12 And in line 13 you said:
13 "I do not know of any starvations being recorded in Srebrenica."
14 This is what I'd like to ask you: The representatives of
15 UNPROFOR, did they ever submit any documents to you stating that someone
16 had died in Srebrenica, Zepa, Gorazde, Tuzla, died of hunger?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Thank you. In document P6863, something was put to you in
19 relation to the 21st of July, 1994; namely, that evacuation of persons
20 had been prevented. And that was also supported by document P6864.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we take a look at this document
22 in e-court, P6864.
23 Q. We see that General Milovanovic in his letter to UNPROFOR, dated
24 the 20th of July, says in paragraph 1 -- actually, before that, before
25 the numbers, he said:
1 "We hereby inform you that we did not approve the movements of
2 UNPROFOR teams and convoys as follows:"
3 And it says here:
4 "Helicopter medical evacuation on the 21st of July, 1994, from
5 Gorazde to Sarajevo."
6 After that there is another sentence:
7 "We insist on equal treatment of the sick Serbs on the Muslim
8 territory and the sick Muslims in the enclaves."
9 Were you told that UNPROFOR should act equally towards the Serb
10 side and the opposing side? How did you understand the role of UNPROFOR
11 in that respect?
12 A. UNPROFOR is supposed to be neutral and to treat the parties to
13 the conflict in the same way.
14 Q. Let us now take a look at a document that the Prosecution said
15 they would use during your cross-examination but they didn't.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we have 31526, that's the
17 65 ter number. Could we please have that in e-court.
18 JUDGE ORIE: I think announcements are always what parties may
19 use during examination or cross-examination and not what they will use.
20 MR. LUKIC: No --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you say you "would use."
22 MR. LUKIC: Well, it's not on my list, that's why I wanted to
23 give the explanation why.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, well, first of all, you don't have to explain
25 anything of the kind to the witness.
1 Please proceed.
2 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 [Interpretation] This is a document where it says that it was
4 sent from the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska on the
5 22nd of July, 1994.
6 Could we take a look at the last page.
7 Q. We see a stamp here. Also we see the name of Manojlo Milovanovic
8 typed out. Do you recognise the signature?
9 A. Yes, that is the signature of General Milovanovic.
10 Q. The first sentence says:
11 "I have received your letter and" --
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we see page 1 of the English, please.
13 MR. LUKIC: Yes, sorry, Your Honour. In both versions we need
14 the first page, I'm sorry.
15 Q. [Interpretation] In respect of medical evacuation, paragraph 1
16 reads as follows:
17 "Your evaluation of the medical evacuation was that there were
18 successes and there was a lack of success, that is to say, that there was
19 co-operation and that there was a lack thereof."
20 Further on, General Milovanovic says:
21 [As read] "I regret that you did not completely clarify your
22 conclusion and that I am forced to do so myself.
23 "Medical evacuations were always successful when we were the ones
24 who approved evacuation of Muslims; however, whenever we requested
25 evacuation of Serbs, you did not accept that and evacuation was not
1 successful. Therefore, the problem lies in your different treatment of
2 the parties to the conflict."
3 General Milovanovic goes on to explain that. But now we are
4 going to skip over to paragraph 4.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Which is on the next page in both
7 Q. This is what paragraph 4 says:
8 "Your claim that medical evacuations from the areas surrounded by
9 the Army of Republika Srpska have been repeatedly prevented is not true.
10 You have no evidence of that and that is why you were not able to present
11 it. You probably do not have information about how many humanitarian
12 acts Serbs carried out in relation to Muslims and Croats. I would be
13 extremely glad if you were to ask Muslims and Croats to treat Serbs in
14 the same way as Serbs treat them."
15 And then in paragraph 6 it says, referring to the letter of the
16 other side, UNPROFOR:
17 "In item 9, you admit that UNPROFOR does not do enough for
19 Towards the end of this paragraph, it says:
20 "UNPROFOR has access to Serbs on the territory under the control
21 of the Muslims and the Croats and the VRS" --
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Next page.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. -- "does not hinder you in any way in that respect."
25 MR. LUKIC: Can we have the next page, please.
1 Q. [Interpretation] This has to do with this topic and this letter
2 that General Milovanovic is sending to the UNPROFOR command in Sarajevo
3 to Colonel Kofret [phoen]. Do you know -- do you personally know, do you
4 have any experience to that effect, that Serbs asked for the humanitarian
5 evacuation of Serbs from territory that was held by Muslim and Croat
7 A. I don't have any information about that.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, Mr. Lukic, if you would have put this
9 question five minutes ago to the witness without reading the whole of the
10 document, then we would have really stayed within the five or six minutes
11 you announced. We are now -- I don't know whether you have -- if you
12 have one more question, you can put it to the witness, but you have
13 wasted most of your time and most of the time of this Court.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Microphone not activated]
15 JUDGE ORIE: I beg your pardon? Microphone.
16 MR. LUKIC: I don't think that we wasted the time.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Well, Mr. Lukic, I'm not inviting you to comment on
18 that. It is established unanimously by this Chamber during the break
19 that the time you used in re-examination was mainly wasted.
20 MR. LUKIC: Can you point so I know --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Leave it to that.
22 MR. LUKIC: -- in future what was wasted?
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I want you to put your last question to
24 the witness and I don't want to enter into a further debate with you on
25 the matter. This is not a debating club.
1 Please proceed.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Was it the policy of the VRS, of its Main Staff, not to allow
4 medical evacuations and not to allow civilians to leave?
5 A. No.
6 JUDGE ORIE: If that was your last question, Mr. Lukic --
7 MR. LUKIC: We would introduce this document to evidence,
8 Your Honour.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: No objection.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 31526 will be Exhibit D729.
12 JUDGE ORIE: D729 is admitted.
13 Any further questions, Mr. McCloskey?
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: If I could ask, Mr. President, there was a -- in
15 regard to the intercept with Obucina, there was a challenge suggesting
16 that was a or could be an exchange of prisoners. I would like to get
17 into that topic if that would be of help to the Court.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it seems to be a matter which was in dispute.
19 Please proceed.
20 MR. LUKIC: If I -- if I could --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 MR. LUKIC: Sorry for the interruption. If I may clarify, the
23 witness said he knows nothing about the exchange of the prisoners but he
24 thinks that's an exchange or rotation of a --
25 JUDGE ORIE: There is no reason for you to repeat how you
1 understood what the witness says.
2 MR. LUKIC: Yes, but it's --
3 JUDGE ORIE: We have heard the testimony of the witness. There
4 was clearly a difference in interpretation and understanding of this
5 document and --
6 MR. LUKIC: Yet --
7 JUDGE ORIE: And Mr. --
8 MR. LUKIC: After a clarification, Your Honour, it's not our
9 understanding anymore that it can deal with exchange of prisoners.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Well --
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. And in fact, if we could -- we've
12 identified what is likely a translation error in the word "exchange,"
13 that may help clear it up. And if the Defence will agree that this has
14 to do with the rotation of humanitarian workers, then I'd -- I can sit
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, you more or less stipulated what it is
17 not, that it's not about an exchange of prisoners. Now Mr. McCloskey
18 invites you to agree on what it then was. I don't know whether you would
19 agree to that as well but ...
20 MR. LUKIC: I have the answer of the witness. He thinks that's
21 it's a rotation of UNMOs. But to be honest with you, I --
22 JUDGE ORIE: You don't think so.
23 MR. LUKIC: No, not that I don't think so, I --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Well, what the witness thinks, as a matter of fact,
25 is not of great probative value, but if you do not agree that it is and
1 if you say it's what the witness thinks it may be is not yet or not the
2 position of the Defence, then Mr. McCloskey will ask some further
3 questions on the matter, I take it.
4 Mr. McCloskey.
5 Further Cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey:
6 Q. Colonel, the rotation of UNMOs, the United Nations Military
7 Observers, does that fit under the category of humanitarian topics or is
8 that more of an UNPROFOR issue?
9 A. It pertains to UNPROFOR.
10 Q. So since you've mentioned that this intercept --
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Which is P -- I'm sorry.
12 Q. We'll get you that intercept.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is P6857, if I'm not mistaken.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, you're absolutely correct. Thank you.
15 Q. You've mentioned to us, and we'll all remember, that you felt
16 that this was a discussion with the -- about the co-ordinating body for
17 the humanitarian issues. So let's go to one more intercept.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: 65 ter 25112. And I want -- hopefully I'll have
19 the transcript of this intercept on the board.
20 Q. And you'll see that it's a 23 June intercept. We unfortunately
21 don't have the times, so we can't compare that. But we'll remember that
22 23 June was the date of the subject intercept that we had just talked
23 about. And we see that this one is a conversation between Petko Obucina
24 and Colonel Milos Djurdjic. And you have told us about who those folks
25 are. And just so everyone knows, Colonel Djurdjic is deceased; is that
2 A. Unfortunately that's correct.
3 Q. And we see this early on in -- an unknown man says: "Yes."
4 And Petko says: "Milos, it's me again."
5 And the unknown man says: "Who are you?"
6 And Petko says: "Ah, it's ..."
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: The transcription was done by the Miletic Defence
8 team, Your Honour, I'm sorry. We haven't corrected that. Your Honour,
9 that should be ignored as well.
10 Unknown man: "Greetings, sir."
11 And Petko says: "What's up Mr. ...?"
12 The unknown man says: "Hello. Well, my boss is busy on the
13 other line."
14 Petko says: "Busy?"
15 "Yes, yes."
16 And then finally Milos Djurdjic gets on the line and says:
18 Petko says: "I just spoke to the General."
19 Milos Djurdjic has a question: "Which one?"
20 And Petko says: "Tolimir."
21 Djurdjic says: "Where?"
22 "On 154."
23 Can we go to the next page in English?
24 Q. And you do recall the previous conversation was between --
25 Tolimir was involved in that.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: So let's go also in the Serbian.
2 Q. And we go down and we see that Petko says:
3 "He said: If Milos didn't, like he didn't understand it well,
4 the main boss said that they can go to Srebrenica and they should go and
5 come out."
6 Milos says: "Yes."
7 And Petko says: "And he said, we will tell Milos that."
8 Milos says: "Good."
9 Petko says: "And he told me to tell the professor that it's
11 That would be Professor Koljevic; correct?
12 A. Professor Koljevic, yes.
13 Q. Milos says: "Good."
14 Petko says: "Well, could you please ..."
15 Milos says: "I'll wait for them to tell me that."
16 Petko says: "Good. Look, could I ask you something ..."
17 Milos says: "Just don't ... have them rotate tomorrow, for God's
19 Petko says: "Have them what?
20 Djurdjic says: "Have them rotate tomorrow."
21 Petko says: "... for tomorrow there's a notification, as far as
22 I remember."
23 And we can follow it down the rest of the way.
24 Milos says: "Well, I have to see with ... talk to Tosa."
25 Tosa is Tolimir, is it not, sir?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now, did your office handle the rotations of the staff of MSF,
3 Doctors Without Borders, into and out of Srebrenica?
4 A. Everyone and everything that entered Srebrenica and that left
5 Srebrenica was within Milos's line of work, MSF included.
6 Q. So in looking at these intercepts together, do they appear
7 related to you?
8 A. They are related.
9 MR. LUKIC: Translation.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
11 MR. LUKIC: It was translated "if they have any connection with
12 each other," and Mr. McCloskey asked "any connection with you."
13 JUDGE ORIE: Let me check that.
14 MR. LUKIC: And that's why the answer was: "They are related,"
15 but ...
16 JUDGE ORIE: One second.
17 MR. LUKIC: Maybe the answer would be the same.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I -- yes, are the two conversations as
19 recorded, are they related or did you intend to say that they were
20 related to you?
21 THE WITNESS: These two conversations are related, the
22 conversations, because they deal with the same issue.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: And, Mr. President, I was incorrect when I
25 thought the intercept transcript was from the Miletic Defence team. It
1 was not. It was our own translation that we had received from others.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Then I take it that you'll remove any suggestive
3 remarks in it which you did not read and which you already said should be
5 MR. LUKIC: And if I may, if you are going to -- if my learned
6 friend is finished with this document, I have an intervention regarding
7 the document as well. In crucial part it's not correctly translated in
8 English document.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then it means --
10 MR. LUKIC: I could --
11 JUDGE ORIE: -- that both --
12 MR. LUKIC: I could read --
13 JUDGE ORIE: -- there is a translation issue and there is an
14 issue with interpretative remarks in the document which shouldn't be
15 there. I'd suggest that -- do you intend to tender it Mr. --
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: -- McCloskey? Yes. Then I'd suggest that we just
18 reserve a number for the time being, not doing anything else, and it's
19 about this intercept which certainly will not go in as it is now.
20 Madam Registrar, the number for the intercept still to be
21 reviewed, intercept 23rd of June, 1995, speaking Obucina and Djurdjic,
22 would be what number?
23 THE REGISTRAR: The number would be P6865, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: And I would suggest, Mr. Lukic, that this number now
25 being reserved, that you tell Mr. McCloskey what your concerns are as far
1 as the translation is concerned. Then we hear from the parties later.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, I'm sure we can work that out. So I -- one
3 last document on that --
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just before you go to the last document,
5 Mr. McCloskey, it looks like your question was not answered. You asked
6 whether these documents were related to the witness, the witness answered
7 the question are they related to each other.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY:
9 Q. Witness, do you -- having been able to study these documents, can
10 you put yourself -- do you have any memory of yourself of this -- of
11 being involved in these in any way, being on the -- on the phone or
12 involved or with knowledge?
13 A. Yes, I picked up the phone. I said to Obucina that Milos was on
14 another line and I actually gave the receiver, the telephone to
15 Colonel Djurdjic. As for the rest of the conversation, I am not familiar
16 with it.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Now, could we then just -- going through the text,
18 it starts with Obucina saying, "Milos, it's me again," and then an
19 unknown person says, "Who are you?" And then Obucina says, "I, it's" --
20 and apparently you are speaking at that moment? You are the unknown man?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, then we don't need it in the document
23 but it's in evidence by other means, that the person speaking is
24 Mr. Kralj before giving the phone to Milos.
25 Please proceed.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. We'll fix these. And I guess we can get
2 rid of the question mark and the parentheses then, but we'll get back to
3 you on that.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Well, we have it in evidence. It's not part of the
5 conversation. So it should be taken out. But the Chamber heard evidence
6 that the person speaking not identifying himself, in court has told us
7 that it was him.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. Thank you. So this is in evidence.
9 So let me go to one last document on a similar issue. It's P2156.
10 Q. And as we're waiting for that to come up, I can tell you that
11 this is -- it is one of the Main Staff convoy issues related to
12 humanitarian convoys. It's in the name of General Miletic which is on
13 the second page. And this is dated 12 June, so I am not suggesting that
14 it is associated necessarily one way or another what we've seen in the
15 last two conversations.
16 My question is: Is this as we see this, where they are -- the
17 Main Staff we can see is agreeing with authorisations number 1382 MSF
18 pertaining to members of its organisation exiting Srebrenica. But it
19 goes on and makes clear that this is only the exit of the following
20 persons from the area. Is this an example of the way the Main Staff
21 dealt with MSF's request to enter and exit the Srebrenica enclave?
22 MR. LUKIC: Just for which period?
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: For the date of this document.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, well, I think the witness didn't limit himself
25 to a certain period when he said that everything that went in and out,
1 perhaps apart from him being at the Main Staff, but --
2 MR. LUKIC: The previous document was for the 23rd June.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: And that --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- was my point. I don't know if this is
6 related. I'm using this, as I said, as an example. If this witness can
7 give it -- tell us about it.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Well, Witness, the question therefore is where you
9 earlier testified that whatever came in and went out was -- had to be
10 approved, that you said that MSF was not excluded from that general rule,
11 to say so, whether this is an example of such a decision on whether or
12 not MSF people could in this case leave Srebrenica.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, I wonder, as a matter of fact, what's
15 the use at all of such a question. I mean, it's logic rather than
16 anything else, but I leave it to that.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Would you like answer to that, Mr. President?
18 JUDGE ORIE: No, it's a -- let's move on.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right.
20 Q. Colonel, we see at the bottom of this document in English:
21 "In other words, no foreign MSF officials shall be allowed to
22 enter the enclaves," on the next page, "except for, perhaps, drivers who
23 will transfer the above-mentioned persons to Belgrade."
24 This Court has heard evidence that during this period the -- from
25 roughly March through July 1995, that rotations of international
1 personnel many times were allowed to leave but were not allowed to come
2 back. Were you aware of this, that many times international folks, be
3 they UNPROFOR, MSF, UNMOs, or others, were allowed to leave the enclave
4 but were not allowed to come back or be replaced?
5 A. No, I'm not aware of that.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Nothing further, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.
8 Since the Chamber also has no further questions for you,
9 Mr. Kralj, this concludes your testimony. I would like to thank you very
10 much for coming to The Hague, first of all, and then for having answered
11 all the questions that were put to you, put to you by the parties, put to
12 you by the Bench. I wish you a safe return home again and you may follow
13 the usher.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
15 [The witness withdrew]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Is the Defence ready to call its next witness?
17 MR. IVETIC: We are, Your Honours. It would be Dr. Veljko Maric.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I take it that the usher will escort the
19 witness into the courtroom.
20 Mr. McCloskey, you are leaving. You'll be replaced by?
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I will -- I will stick around.
22 JUDGE ORIE: You'll stick around. Okay.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: If Ms. Melikian would be able to leave, that
24 would be how we're going to do it.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 Mr. Lukic, you're on your feet.
2 MR. LUKIC: One procedural matter --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
4 MR. LUKIC: -- before the witness enters.
5 Yesterday our 65 ter 1D2223 was MFI'd as D721. There was an
6 error in the English translation. The B/C/S document was dated
7 2nd of May, 1994, but the English translation showed the date of
8 2nd of May, 1995. The OTP sent the document back -- back to CLSS asking
9 that they revise the English translation to correct the date. The new
10 corrected English translation of the D721 MFI'd has been uploaded into
11 e-court under doc ID 1D17-2058. So the Defence would seek permission to
12 replace the English translation currently in the e-court with the new
13 corrected English translation, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Madam Registrar is hereby instructed to
15 replace the present English translation by the one -- the new one just
16 mentioned by Mr. Lukic, the new doc ID being 1D17-2058. And there are no
17 objections to admission, I think, therefore -- but, Madam Registrar, you
18 are on your feet.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. If I could kindly ask Defence
20 counsel to release the document in -- the translation in e-court so it
21 could be attached accordingly.
22 MR. IVETIC: If I can assist, I'm told by our back room that
23 actually the doc ID number is 1D17-0258, and that should be released.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then I give a new instruction to
25 Madam Registrar; that is, to replace the present English translation by
1 the new one provided under number 1D17-0258.
2 [The witness entered court]
3 JUDGE ORIE: And D721 is admitted into evidence.
4 Good afternoon, Mr. Maric.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Before you give evidence, I would like to invite you
7 to make a solemn declaration of which the text is now handed out to you.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
9 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
10 WITNESS: VELJKO MARIC
11 [Witness answered through interpreter]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated, Mr. Maric.
13 Mr. Maric, you'll first be examined by Mr. Ivetic. You'll find
14 him to your left, he's standing. And Mr. Ivetic is a member of the
15 Defence team of Mr. Mladic.
16 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
17 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
18 Examination by Mr. Ivetic:
19 Q. Good morning, Doctor. Can you please state your full name for
20 purposes of the record.
21 A. Veljko Maric.
22 MR. IVETIC: At this time I would ask that you be shown
23 65 ter number 1D4414 in e-court.
24 Q. Sir, we can see this is a witness statement from the Karadzic
1 MR. IVETIC: If we could please take a look at the last page in
2 both versions.
3 Q. I would ask you, sir, if you could identify for us who is --
4 whose signature appears on the Serbian original at the bottom of the
6 A. This is my signature. I signed the document on the
7 16th of March, 2013.
8 Q. And, Doctor, subsequent to signing this statement in the Karadzic
9 case, did you have occasion to review and read the same in the Serbian
10 language to ascertain if everything is correct therein?
11 A. The opportunity was given to me, I read it, and I have objections
12 to three paragraphs. I would like to clarify certain things. I would
13 like to expand, if necessary, I would like to expand on those three
14 paragraphs in the statement.
15 Q. We will go through them. First, sir, I'd like to take a look at
16 paragraph number 2.
17 MR. IVETIC: And that should be on the first page of the
18 statement in both languages.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the first page.
20 MR. IVETIC:
21 Q. And, sir, in paragraph 2 where you talk about the outpatient
22 clinics of the Foca hospital, what corrections would you like to make?
23 A. The hospital in Foca has several outpatient clinics in Miljevina,
24 Celebici, Godjenje, Tjentiste, and Ustikolina, whereas Gorazde is not an
25 outpatients' clinic. It is the medical centre of Gorazde. In Bosnia,
1 every municipality has its medical centre, Kalinovik, Cajnice, Rudo,
2 Visegrad, Rogatica. They all belong to the Foca hospital but they are
3 different organisational units.
4 MR. IVETIC: Okay. And if we could look at paragraph 4 which is
5 also on the first page in both versions.
6 Q. Do you have any corrections that you wish to make in relation to
7 this paragraph?
8 A. On line 1 it says, "Before the war in Bosnia." I would like to
9 add the word "Herzegovina." I don't know why it was omitted in the first
10 place, Bosnia and Herzegovina.
11 Q. And now if we could take a look together at paragraph 5.
12 MR. IVETIC: Which is at the bottom of this page in both
13 languages and then continues on to the next page in both languages.
14 Q. What correction or corrections would you like to make to this
16 A. After the conflict which happened on the 8th of April, 1992, the
17 Foca hospital was abandoned by specialists, a total of 32 of them. The
18 hospital was left with fewer than 20 specialists in 17 different
19 departments. Of the 32 specialists who abandoned the hospital after the
20 8th of April, 1992, belonged to all ethnic groups, fifteen were Muslims
21 and seventeen specialists were Serbs. They abandoned the Foca hospital
22 due to the conflict that happened on the 8th of April, 1992.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Lukic, you refer to paragraph 35. In my view
24 the statement has only 26 -- sorry, Mr. Ivetic. The statement has only
25 20 --
1 MR. LUKIC: Yes, you're too used to correct me. So it's
2 Mr. Ivetic today.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You're absolutely right, but I'm happy that I
4 first realised that I made the mistake. I'm sorry for that.
5 MR. IVETIC: I apologise if I misspoke. We are relating to
6 paragraph 5 which is at the bottom of page 1 and leads on to the top of
7 page 2 in both languages.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Paragraph 5.
9 MR. IVETIC:
10 Q. And one more clarification, Doctor. You mention specialists.
11 Could you be more specific as to what -- what type -- what is a
12 specialist? In what -- in what bases are you using that term?
13 A. All hospitals have specialists, surgeons, anesthesiologists,
14 specialists in internal medicine, pediatricians, and so on and so forth.
15 They are all specialists in their respective fields of medicine.
16 Q. Okay. Now apart from these three corrections and additional
17 information that you've provided, do you stand by everything as recorded
18 in your written statement and given to the Karadzic case as being
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. If I were to ask you today questions on the same topics as
22 contained in your statement, would your answers in substance be the same?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Given that you have taken a solemn declaration to tell the truth
25 today, would those answers as contained in your statement be truthful?
1 A. Yes, providing my corrections were included into the statement.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, at this time I would tender the
4 statement which is 1D4414, into evidence.
5 MS. HARBOUR: No objections, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Madam Registrar.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 1D4414 will be Exhibit D730.
8 JUDGE ORIE: D730 is admitted.
9 MR. IVETIC: Thank you. Your Honour, there are also three
10 associated exhibits that I would tender at this time.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, there were some objections to those or the
12 length, if I remember well. Yes.
13 MS. HARBOUR: Your Honour, it's our position that those are not
14 inseparable and indispensable to the statement, but we would have no
15 objection to them being led through the witness.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic --
17 MR. IVETIC: Well, Your Honours --
18 JUDGE ORIE: -- do you insist on having them admitted as
19 associated exhibits or --
20 MR. IVETIC: I do since they were covered in two paragraphs for
21 each of the documents. I think the statement does sufficiently discuss
22 the documents and they are integral to what is contained in the witness's
24 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Harbour, could you explain a little bit more? I
25 saw it in the response, I think.
1 MS. HARBOUR: Our position is simply that referencing the
2 document in the statement doesn't make them inseparable and
3 indispensable, and in this case, we don't think that they meet the
4 standard required for admission as associated exhibits. But we leave it
5 in Your Honours' hands.
6 MR. IVETIC: If I could be corrected, the first document, which
7 was 1D7238 in the Karadzic case and which is in our case 1D4415, is
8 discussed at length in three paragraphs of the statement. I believe that
9 is the criteria for a document to be considered integral. I'd be
10 interested to know what other criteria is being cited by the Prosecution.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Which paragraph exactly, Mr. Ivetic?
12 MR. IVETIC: Oh, I apologise. It's in paragraphs 11, 12, and 21
13 of the witness's statement, that that one document is discussed.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Now, I see that. And the document is a -- is that a
15 list of --
16 MR. IVETIC: List of patients, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: List of patients. Do we need, I do understand,
18 33 pages of lists of patients in order to establish that they are of all
19 ethnicities? I mean, the problem is that the Chamber if it receives
20 33 pages, it has the habit of looking at all those pages to see whether
21 it -- but if there is no disagreement between the parties that documents
22 do show that patients of the various ethnicities were treated, then I
23 think we can deal without. To that extent, you could ask yourself
24 whether it's indispensable.
25 MR. IVETIC: Well, Your Honours, Your Honours have indicated in
1 your guidance a certain number of documents per statement that are
2 permitted as associated exhibits. We are well under that with this
3 statement which is only asking for --
4 JUDGE ORIE: It's not about numbers. It's --
5 MR. IVETIC: It is. That's what the guidance was, Your Honours.
6 It was number of documents.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, the guidance was not only about the
8 number. Of course, the Chamber has said that if documents would qualify
9 as associated exhibits, and indispensability was one of the criteria for
10 that, that if they would qualify, that nevertheless the Chamber would
11 limit the number. So Ms. Harbour is not saying you are presenting too
12 many, she's saying it's not indispensable. And I'm trying to find out
13 whether the whole of the document, 33 pages, is indispensable in order to
14 understand the testimony of this witness.
15 Now, if there is no dispute about lists showing that patients
16 were treated of various ethnicities, then I would say we could perfectly
17 understand the evidence of this witness without going through those
18 33 pages. That is my point.
19 And I'm looking at Ms. Harbour, is there any dispute about that
20 those lists would show that various ethnicities were treated?
21 MS. HARBOUR: Your Honours, actually the lists do not indicate
22 the ethnicities of the patients.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Also not by names --
24 MS. HARBOUR: They --
25 JUDGE ORIE: -- because often there is a --
1 MS. HARBOUR: They list the patients' names --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --
3 MS. HARBOUR: -- so if one --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Often names are indicative for ethnicity.
5 MS. HARBOUR: Right. Of course.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any dispute about -- okay, if it's not the
7 list, is there any dispute about persons of various ethnicities being
8 treated in the hospital during the period of time as the lists are
10 MS. HARBOUR: No, we don't dispute that persons of various
11 ethnicities were patients at the hospital during this time.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And at the time would be when? Could the
13 parties agree on what are the times covered by the documents?
14 MS. HARBOUR: I would be happy to agree with the time-period
15 covered. It's quite clear from the documents which -- what the
16 time-period is.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
18 MR. IVETIC: It's from April 1992 through the end of 1992, is my
20 MS. HARBOUR: For one of the documents.
21 MR. IVETIC: Correct.
22 JUDGE ORIE: There seems to be no dispute about that matter, and
23 we can understand the evidence of this witness even without looking at
24 those lists. Therefore, the Chamber will further consider whether they
25 are indispensable, yes or no. If the parties would make -- want to make
1 any further submissions on that matter, because that's the issue, then
2 they are free to do so.
3 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour. The one -- there is one document
4 that relates to 1993 which is a list of Bosnian Muslim children that were
5 cared for at the hospital and then sent to another facility in Montenegro
6 in 1993. I don't know whether counsel has an objection to that or
7 whether they stipulate to that being as stated in the document.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And I think, as a matter of fact, that the
9 witness explains in his statement about what happened --
10 MR. IVETIC: Correct.
11 JUDGE ORIE: -- so you can understand that even without if
12 that's -- is that beyond dispute or?
13 MS. HARBOUR: Your Honour, that's the crux of our position, which
14 is that the statement is understandable without the documents. But,
15 again, we have no objection whatsoever to the Defence using these
16 documents and tendering them through this witness.
17 JUDGE ORIE: No. At the same time, of course, it's only needed
18 if it's a matter which is in dispute. If there is no dispute about these
19 matters, then we just can rely on the -- on the statement of the witness
20 and we do not need all the supporting evidence, which is lengthy.
21 So therefore, I'd suggest that the parties further -- for the
22 lists of patients in relation to the admission of patients of different
23 ethnicities there, it seems that we'll consider whether this is
24 indispensable at all. And for the last list I leave it at this moment to
25 the parties. We'll not yet decide on that.
1 The statement itself, of course, that's a different matter.
2 MR. IVETIC: I think it already got a number, if I'm not
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and I think -- have we admitted it already in
6 evidence or not? I have to check that. D730, if it was not yet admitted
7 into evidence, is now admitted into evidence.
8 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour. And I have one more
9 document that we have just put into e-court at the suggestion of the
10 Prosecution. It's 1D05232. It's a table correlating the adjudicated
11 facts from the Karadzic case to those in our case so that the references
12 to adjudicated facts in the statement can be connected to those in our
14 JUDGE ORIE: I take it then that there is no objection.
15 MS. HARBOUR: No objection.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 1D05232 will be Exhibit D731. And,
18 Your Honours, if the document could be released in e-court as I don't see
19 it. Thank you.
20 MR. IVETIC: I will make that request.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. D731, once released, is admitted into
22 evidence. Please proceed.
23 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours. I have a short summary of
24 the statement pursuant to our practice.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I'm just looking at the clock, Mr. Ivetic, and
1 I'm wondering whether we should not first take a break.
2 MR. IVETIC: Let's take the break. That's probably easiest.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you'll -- you asked for half an hour.
4 MR. IVETIC: That's correct.
5 JUDGE ORIE: That was inclusive the tendering of the statement,
6 et cetera.
7 MR. IVETIC: Absolutely.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, we'll take a break and we'd like to see you
9 back in 20 minutes from now. You may follow the usher.
10 [The witness stands down]
11 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at 20 minutes to 2.00.
12 --- Recess taken at 1.21 p.m.
13 --- On resuming at 1.42 p.m.
14 MR. IVETIC: While we wait for the witness, perhaps we can use
15 the time. I've been now in contact with Prosecution counsel and the
16 Prosecution indicated that we should identify the time-periods for the
17 documents that are at issue: 1D4415, the parties stipulate that the
18 documents relate to patients from the end of March through December of
19 1992; 1D4416, the parties stipulate that the documents relate to patients
20 from April to May 1992; 1D4417, the parties stipulate that the records
21 begin in January 1991 and contains entries through 1993, with the dates
22 of birth indicating that these are children.
23 JUDGE ORIE: And those stipulations make the content of the
24 statement well understandable, and therefore we do not need the lists.
25 Is that -- is that the conclusion the parties could reach as well? Or is
1 there any other reason why they are still to be considered as
2 indispensable for understanding the statement of the witness?
3 MR. IVETIC: Unless the Prosecution wants to cross-examine on the
4 lists at all, I don't know. We didn't discuss that.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, I can imagine that that -- that that
6 would cause you to present them as evidence.
7 Ms. Harbour.
8 MS. HARBOUR: We do plan to cross-examine on them.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. I then suggest that we wait until we've heard
10 the cross-examination, that you reserve your right to use them because
11 the Chamber would then be better able to understand the testimony of the
13 MR. IVETIC: Of course, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's proceed this way.
15 [The witness takes the stand]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
17 MR. IVETIC: We were at the point of the summary, which I begin.
18 Dr. Veljko Maric is a surgeon who since 1993 has been the
19 director of the Foca hospital.
20 Dr. Maric states that the hospital in Foca town is the only
21 hospital in Foca municipality. The hospital had a mixed hospital staff
22 until the middle of July 1992, when Muslim staff and some Serb staff left
23 the hospital due to the conflict. Both doctors who wished to leave and
24 patients who needed dialysis were sent via hospital ambulances to
25 Podgorica and Belgrade.
1 In the early days due to fighting, the road from the hospital to
2 Foca was blocked --
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You should slow down a bit, otherwise it's very
4 difficult to follow.
5 MR. IVETIC: And only the road going to Montenegro by way of
6 Celebici was usable. The doctor recalls that on 8 April 1992, the
7 Green Berets prevented a bus carrying hospital staff from passing and the
8 staff had to continue the rest of the way on foot.
9 During the war, the Foca hospital treated persons of all
10 ethnicities, including wounded persons and several children who were at
11 the hospital, all the way until 1993 when they were sent to Igalo in
12 Montenegro. The Foca hospital had tried to arrange to send these
13 children to the Bosnian Muslim authorities but this gesture was refused.
14 The military and civilian authorities in Foca had no influence
15 over the running of Foca hospital. The health care system at the penal
16 and correctional facility was separate and apart from the health care
17 system of the hospital. However, during the war, doctors from the
18 hospital would go to the KPD to treat the prisoners when needed and
19 prisoners who needed extra treatment came to the hospital when needed.
20 The doctor does not believe there was any discrimination of patients at
21 the KPD based on ethnicity or religious affiliation.
22 And that completes the summary.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.
24 If you have any further questions for the witness.
25 MR. IVETIC: I do.
1 Q. Doctor, first of all, I'd like to look at 1D4417 with you. This
2 is identified in your statement as a list of children who were sent to
3 Igalo. And I'd like to ask you, sir, based upon your knowledge of the
4 patients and these records, could you identify for us what is the
5 ethnicity or what are the ethnicities of these individuals?
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: For the record, it's 1D4417.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These are children. From number 1
8 to number 3, they are children of Muslim ethnicity. 4, Simovic is of
9 Serb ethnicity. Then 7 -- and 7 -- from 7, 8, 8 is Azra Ramovic, Muslim.
10 And then 9 and 10 are Serb children.
11 MR. IVETIC:
12 Q. Okay.
13 MR. IVETIC: If we could now take a look at D730.
14 Q. Which is your written statement.
15 MR. IVETIC: And I'd look to look at paragraph 12, which is on
16 page 3 in both languages.
17 Q. And here you state that every person that came to the hospital
18 and sought treatment was treated irrespective of ethnicity, religion, or
19 skin colour. Do you have any figures or statistics to demonstrate the
20 number of ethnic Bosnian Muslim patients who were treated during the
21 entirety of 1992?
22 A. The town of Foca or the municipality of Foca has a tradition of
23 hospitals, because the first hospital was opened as early as 1896. This
24 hospital that is 2 and a half kilometres away from the town, downstream
25 on the right bank of the Drina river, was opened in 1958 and it has been
1 working since then and is rendering services to this day. I have been
2 the director over the past 20 years. I've been the director of this
3 medical institution. And --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could I stop you there. You are giving us
5 now the history of the hospital and yourself, whereas the question was
6 whether you could give us a number, statistics which would demonstrate
7 the number of ethnic Bosnian Muslim patients treated during 1992. Could
8 you please focus your answer on that question.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, from the 8th of April,
10 1992, until the end, the 31st of December, roughly, in the hospital over
11 1.900 patients were treated. Out of this figure, about 300 patients were
12 persons belonging to the Muslim people. And then, at the time, in that
13 period, 22 children were born, Muslim children.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please. We have heard now the number 300 out of
15 1900. Wait for the next question. Whether Mr. Ivetic is interested in
16 babies born or elderly being treated, I don't know yet what his next
17 question would be.
18 Please proceed.
19 MR. IVETIC:
20 Q. Okay. We've heard about children. Were there any other -- were
21 there any other patients that are not included in the 3 00, in addition
22 to the 22 children that were born, that were of non-Serb ethnicity?
23 A. Well, we also had seven children who were admitted, treated, and
24 released, but they could not be taken to their families. Therefore, we
25 kept them until the 29th of December, 1993. That is when, together with
1 the Norwegian Red Cross, I managed to put these children up at the
2 Dr. Simo Milosevic Hospital in Montenegro, in Igalo, and from there these
3 children were reunited with their families.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I may just ask for clarification here.
5 Doctor, in the summary that was read to us of your testimony, it
6 was mentioned that the hospital tried to transport some children to the
7 Muslim authorities but that this gesture was refused. By whom was this
8 gesture refused?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We tried --
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: By whom?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- to --
12 JUDGE ORIE: By whom was it refused?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the Foca hospital to the
14 border, there is about 10 kilometres to the Osanica line. So we took the
15 children to Osanica, we had agreed that we would hand them over. We
16 couldn't do that so we had to return them. That was the only thing that
17 we could have tried. So I don't know why and how but we didn't manage to
18 hand over the children so we returned them. This was an attempt, our
19 attempt, to have the children transported.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me try again. Who at the border refused that
21 these children could pass?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, probably the other side.
23 Because on the Serb side, we drove the children to the border but then
24 the other side would not take them.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: I must accept that then you don't know because you
1 said "probably." Thank you so much, Mr. Ivetic.
2 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
3 Q. Now I'd like to go to a different topic. In addition to the Foca
4 hospital, were there any medical schools in Foca municipality during the
6 A. Certainly. In 1992, life had been disrupted in Bosnia and
7 Herzegovina because of the war. I am one of the still-living pioneers of
8 that project. Already on the 15th of October, 1993, we started teaching
9 at the school of medicine and dentistry. We worked for months to
10 organise this so that professors of Serb ethnicity who could not work in
11 Sarajevo and who were dispersed throughout Yugoslavia, we managed to get
12 them all back and we started out with these two faculties. They exist to
13 this day and they have celebrated their 20th anniversary.
14 Q. You are -- or let me ask you this question: With respect to the
15 professors at the school, what was the ethnic makeup of the professors at
16 the medical faculties that you have just described which were founded in
17 15 October of 1993 in Foca?
18 A. These were professors there the ranks of the Croat and Serb
20 Q. And could you tell us where these professors came from?
21 A. These are professors of the school of medicine from the
22 University of Sarajevo. I used to be their student, too, and that is
23 where I specialised. However, they left Sarajevo, and we managed to
24 bring them to Foca and in this way to revitalize these two faculties.
25 Q. And did the ethnic Croat professors remain at this institution
1 for the duration of the war?
2 A. All the professors who came stayed at the faculty of medicine
3 until the moment when they had to retire, when they had to retire due to
4 their age on the basis of the Law on Higher Education.
5 Q. Thank you. Now I'd like to take a look together at 65 ter number
6 15257 in e-court. And the first question I will have, once the document
7 comes up, is if you are familiar with this document.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now, first of all, looking at the Latin description of the
10 diagnosis, what kind of medical conditions are these -- are these people
12 A. These are patients who were injured. They had gun-shot wounds to
13 different parts of their body.
14 Q. Looking at the name of these individuals, what comment can you
15 make as to their ethnic background?
16 A. Number 7 and 8 are Carapic, so they are ethnic Serbs. And from 1
17 to 10, Muslims.
18 Q. And it indicates they are being sent to the Pljevlja medical
19 centre. Where is that located, Pljevlja?
20 A. Pljevlja is a town in Montenegro. About a hundred kilometres
21 away from Foca. There is a hospital there that admitted these wounded
22 persons from the medical centre in Gorazde. They probably couldn't get
23 through, but we were 30 kilometres closer to them.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 MR. IVETIC: Now if we could turn to the next page in the Serbian
1 and stay on the same page in the English.
2 Q. We will see that the author of the document --
3 MR. IVETIC: If we can go to the next page in the Serbian and
4 stay on the same page in the English.
5 Q. We see the author of the document is a Dr. Asim Prutina. Are you
6 familiar with this doctor?
7 A. I know him. He's the director of the health centre in Gorazde,
8 otherwise he is a specialist, an internal medicine specialist.
9 MR. IVETIC: If we can go to the next page in both languages.
10 Q. We now -- we now see a list of individuals sent to Uzice in
11 Serbia. Can you tell us based on the names what is the ethnic background
12 of these patients?
13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We cannot hear the witness
14 at all.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could you --
16 MR. IVETIC:
17 Q. Sir, could you put the -- put the --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please put the microphones so that the
19 interpreters can hear you and, at the same time, not so closely to your
20 nose that breathing is the prevailing sound produced.
21 MR. IVETIC:
22 Q. Now, sir, if you could go ahead and answer what the ethnic
23 background of these patients.
24 A. Thank you. Number 1, Dragoljub, is a Serb, and all the rest are
1 Q. Thank you.
2 MR. IVETIC: If we could turn to page 6 of the document in
3 Serbian, page 3 in English.
4 Q. Here we have Dr. Prutina sending two patients to Sokolac. First
5 of all, can you tell us what hospital was in Sokolac and to what entity
6 was this hospital subordinated?
7 A. This is the military hospital at Sokolac. It is subordinated to
8 the staff of the Army of Republika Srpska.
9 Q. And the ethnicities of the patients, can they be determined from
10 the names?
11 A. Muslim.
12 MR. IVETIC: If we could turn to page 7 in Serb, page 4 in
14 Q. We now have a list of individuals that were sent to the Foca
15 hospital. First of all, looking at their names, do you have a comment as
16 to the ethnicity?
17 A. These patients are of Muslim ethnicity.
18 Q. And can you confirm for us whether you recall such an instance in
19 March and April of 1992 of patients being brought into the Foca hospital
20 from Goradze to be treated?
21 A. I remember. I was one of the two surgeons in the Foca hospital.
22 In view of their injuries that had to be treated for a longer time, I
23 sent them to Kosevo, to the university clinical centre in Kosevo. One of
24 them was Jusuf Preses.
25 Q. Thank you. And looking again at the Latin, do you have a comment
1 as to the medical diagnosis for these patients?
2 A. These are gun-shot wounds. And under number 9, Baljim Hanjalic
3 [phoen] was not wounded. He suffered from bronchial asthma and heart
5 Q. Now these patients came from the 20th of March through the
6 25th of April. During that entire same time-period, were you able to
7 receive and treat wounded Serbs from Foca town itself?
8 A. In the course of April 1992, I treated 48 patients surgically --
9 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the numbers.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- because of the barricade --
11 MR. IVETIC:
12 Q. Sir, you're being asked to please repeat the numbers. The
13 translator did not catch them.
14 A. In the month of April 1992, I treated 48 patients surgically. 37
15 of them were Muslims and the remaining 11 were Serbs.
16 Q. Were there any difficulties in the time-period of March to
17 April 1992 for wounded Serbs to travel from Foca town to Foca hospital
18 and be treated there?
19 A. During the first eight or ten days in the month of April, we
20 could not admit wounded males because of the barricades on the road by
21 the penitentiary, and those patients did not dare or were not allowed to
22 go to the hospital. The first patient I admitted was Marijan Blagojevic,
23 who had a chest wound, and I admitted him on the 14th of April.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, you are close to 40 minutes now where
25 the indication was 30 minutes, and you are dealing with a lot of details
1 which either could be agreed upon or --
2 MR. IVETIC: But I tried to agree with the Prosecution but they
3 wouldn't agree with the other list so why would they agree with this
4 list? Your Honours, I tried to do everything in accord and now I have to
5 ask the witness these questions.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Ethnicity, is that something you could agree on on
7 the basis of names or --
8 MR. IVETIC: They didn't want to agree to that on the other
9 documents, Your Honour, so I have to say that they cannot.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Have you gone to the Prosecution and said: We want
11 to use these lists and we want to establish what ethnicity they were,
12 apart from that the statement itself says already that is no
13 discrimination. Did you go and try to find that out -- or the wounds,
14 what was wounded persons, et cetera?
15 MS. HARBOUR: Your Honours, we actually did meet before this
16 session --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 MS. HARBOUR: -- and agreed to stipulate that all three of the
19 documents that were originally being tendered contained names from the
20 Serb ethnicity and the Bosniak ethnicity.
21 JUDGE ORIE: So -- but apart from that, even if that would not be
22 the case, that you have used 40 minutes, could you wind up and --
23 MR. IVETIC: Okay.
24 JUDGE ORIE: -- so --
25 MR. IVETIC: Well, I'm done actually. So that's the end of it.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then if you are ready, Ms. Harbour, to
2 cross-examine the witness, you have an opportunity to start for the next
3 six or seven minutes with that.
4 Mr. Maric, you'll now be cross-examined by Ms. Harbour.
5 Ms. Harbour is counsel for the Prosecution. You'll find her to your
7 Please proceed.
8 Cross-examination by Ms. Harbour:
9 Q. Mr. Maric, Dr. Aziz Torlak was your friend; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And he was a Muslim?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. When Serb soldiers came to the Foca hospital in April 1992
14 looking for Dr. Torlak, you and another doctor helped to hide Dr. Torlak;
15 is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Shortly thereafter, Dr. Torlak attempted to leave Foca in an
18 ambulance but it was stopped and he was removed and taken to KP Dom;
20 A. Due to the threats that we all received or we saw, we suggested
21 that Dr. Torlak should leave Foca because his life was not safe. He
22 received documents from the authorities, and the director, Dr. Stanic,
23 gave Dr. Torlak our ambulance. Dr. Torlak is from Rogatica. He left the
24 hospital in that ambulance.
25 JUDGE ORIE: And was he then stopped and was he removed and taken
1 to KP Dom? Because the first five or six lines of your answer are a
2 simple "yes" to that he attempted to leave Foca. Now the rest of the
3 question, was he -- the ambulance stopped?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The prison is 800 metres away from
5 the hospital.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Witness --
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I visited him 15 days --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Witness, could you please focus your
9 answers on the question. Was the ambulance stopped, yes or no? Or don't
10 you know?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. But I'm sure that
12 they were stopped. The ambulance was indeed stopped in front of the
13 KP Dom because 15 days later I visited Dr. Torlak at the KP Dom.
14 JUDGE ORIE: So you say: I do not know whether it stopped,
15 whether he was removed, but I found him later in KP Dom.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know, I don't know. Yes,
17 KP Dom. Yes, that's correct, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: I fully understand that you were not present and
19 therefore cannot say what exactly happened.
20 MS. HARBOUR:
21 Q. But he was --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Harbour.
23 MS. HARBOUR: Thank you, Your Honours.
24 Q. Really what I was interested in is the fact that he was taken to
25 KP Dom and you've confirmed that. Are you aware that Dr. Torlak suffered
1 a terrible death at the hands of Serb soldiers?
2 MS. HARBOUR: And I refer the Chamber to Exhibit P572, page 12.
3 MR. IVETIC: I would object that if they are going to present
4 this kind of question to the witness, they must give the document before
5 the witness so that the witness can comment. When they are describing a
6 particular type of circumstances, if it's in the document and they are
7 asking the witness to confirm, they have to show the document.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Well, not necessarily. If there is any dispute
9 about it and then, of course, you can put the document to the witness --
10 MS. HARBOUR: Actually --
11 JUDGE ORIE: -- Mr. Ivetic, but you just assisted the Chamber.
12 The question simply was: Do you know whether Dr. Torlak met his death at
13 the hand of Serb soldiers?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that. I visited
15 Dr. Torlak 15 days later with my chief, and later I did not have any such
16 opportunity in view of my --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand that you'd -- do you know how
18 he died or do you not know?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Harbour.
21 MS. HARBOUR:
22 Q. Dr. Amir Berberkic, another Muslim colleague of yours, he was
23 wounded in April 1992 and you operated on him; is that correct?
24 A. Dr. Amir Berberkic, he was my surgical resident and I did operate
25 on him in April. He had gun-shot wounds through both knees.
1 Dr. Berberkic left the hospital without anybody's permission and some
2 seven or ten days later he was admitted with all gun-shot wounds in both
3 knees. I treated him, I operated on him, Dr. Berberkic was cured, he
4 left the hospital, he was discharged, and I believe that he is currently
5 in America.
6 Q. He left the hospital as a prisoner to KP Dom; is that correct?
7 A. That's correct because he was later exchanged. I don't know who
8 else was exchanged at the same time, but it is true that he was in the
9 KP Dom.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Harbour, when you say he left the hospital
11 as a prisoner, was it after the operation or before the operation? I'm
12 asking because the witness said he left without permission and I'm not
13 quite sure which leaving you are referring to.
14 MS. HARBOUR: Let me ask the witness.
15 Q. It was after you operated on him that he eventually left the
16 hospital as a prisoner and was put in KP Dom; is that correct, Dr. Maric?
17 A. He left the hospital and seven or ten days later he was admitted
18 as a patient. I operated on him, I treated him, I cured him, and then he
19 was taken away to the KP Dom.
20 JUDGE ORIE: I'm looking at the clock, Ms. Harbour. It's time to
22 MS. HARBOUR: Yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Maric, we adjourn for the day. We would like to
24 see you back tomorrow morning at 9.30. But before you leave this
25 courtroom, I want to instruct you that you should not speak with anyone
1 about your testimony, whether given already today or still to be given
2 tomorrow, and not only not to speak to anyone but also not to communicate
3 in any other way with whomever about your testimony. If that is clear,
4 we would like to see you back tomorrow morning and you may follow the
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, thank you.
7 [The witness stands down]
8 JUDGE ORIE: We adjourn for the day and we'll resume tomorrow,
9 the 30th of October, 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, I.
10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.18 p.m.,
11 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 30th day
12 of October, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.