1 Thursday, 30 October 2014
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to everybody in and around the
7 Mr. Registrar, please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you and good morning, Your Honour. This is
9 the case number IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
11 First of all, let me indicate that unfortunately Judge Orie is
12 not with us today for urgent personal matters. Judge Fluegge and I have
13 decided that it is in the interests of justice to sit pursuant to Rule 15
14 bis, as we now do. The Chamber is informed that both parties have
15 preliminary issues to raise, starting with the Prosecution.
16 Yes, Madam Bibles.
17 MS. BIBLES: Good morning, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning.
19 MS. BIBLES: And thank you.
20 Your Honour, in an abundance of caution I would ask to go into
21 private session.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
23 [Private session]
11 Pages 27562-27563 redacted. Private session.
13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
16 Yes, Mr. Lukic.
17 MR. LUKIC: We haven't finished dealing with the associated
18 exhibits with Mr. Kralj, so I don't want -- I don't know if Your Honours
19 want to deal with it now or we should wait for Judge Orie or for Monday,
20 whatever you instruct us.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: I suggest we wait for Judge Orie.
22 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then that is all?
24 MR. LUKIC: That is all.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
1 May the witness please be brought into the court.
2 [The witness takes the stand]
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning, Dr. Maric.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: I would like to remind you that you are still
6 bound by the declaration that you have made at the beginning of your
7 testimony to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the
8 truth. Thank you.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Harbour, good morning.
11 MS. HARBOUR: Good morning.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's your chance.
13 WITNESS: VELJKO MARIC [Resumed]
14 [Witness answered through interpreter]
15 Cross-examination by Ms. Harbour: [Continued]
16 Q. Dr. Maric, yesterday you told the Court that your Muslim
17 colleagues, Drs. Torlak and Berberkic were detained in in KP Dom. Did
18 you know that another doctor from your hospital, Dr. Asima Pilav, was
19 also detained in KP Dom?
20 A. Dr. Asima Pilav was detained at the beginning of the war in
21 Velecevo, not at the KP Dom, Velecevo. It's an infirmary; at the
22 beginning of the war, it was a prison. Dr. Asima Pilav was a
24 Q. Doctors and medical staff who worked at the Foca health centre,
25 including Dr. Karovic, were also transferred to KP Dom; is that correct?
1 A. Yes, Dr. Ibro Karovic is a doctor from the medical centre; he was
2 at the KP Dom.
3 Q. After the health centre staff were arrested and detained, did you
4 and the remaining doctors at the Foca hospital make an appeal on the
5 radio for a release of all the doctors?
6 MR. IVETIC: Objection: Assumes facts not in evidence.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Harbour.
8 MS. HARBOUR: I -- I am not sure which facts are being assumed?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I --
10 MR. IVETIC: Could you point to where there has been evidence led
11 of an arrest?
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Does it have to be in evidence? It's the position
13 of the --
14 MR. IVETIC: Well, then she has to preface it by saying it's the
15 position of the Prosecutor - does she not? - if she is presenting the
16 Prosecution's position on something? We have not had evidence led that
17 these individuals were arrested at the hospital.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Ivetic, you understand that Madam Harbour is
19 on cross-examination?
20 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: And what are the limitations on cross-examination?
22 MR. IVETIC: There is a limitation that if you assume a fact not
23 in evidence, it's subject to objection unless you are presenting your
24 case pursuant to the rule, in which case you have to identify it as being
25 your position.
1 MS. HARBOUR: Your Honours, I would be happy to rephrase the
2 question if that would cut to the chase.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
4 MS. HARBOUR:
5 Q. After the health centre staff were detained at KP Dom, did you
6 and the other remaining doctors at the Foca hospital make an appeal on
7 the radio for the release of all the doctors?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Yesterday at transcript page 27536 --
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just let me find out: What's the difference
11 between this question and the previous question?
12 MS. HARBOUR: As I understand Mr. Ivetic's objection, the
13 previous question I had said "arrested and detained," whereas, as
14 rephrased, I omitted the word "arrested."
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
16 MS. HARBOUR:
17 Q. Dr. Maric, yesterday at transcript page 27536 you testified that
18 after the 8th of April, 1992, specialists, including Muslim doctors,
19 "abandoned" the hospital due to the conflict. In paragraph 5 of your
20 statement when you discussed Muslim staff leaving the hospital, you said
21 "no one drove them out." This is not exactly accurate, is it,
22 considering that Muslim doctors and medical staff were detained in
23 KP Dom?
24 A. Well, the conflict certainly caused fear amongst everyone
25 regardless of ethnicity. People were trying to resolve their own
1 situations. They didn't want to have the conflict affect them entirely.
2 Yesterday I stated it wasn't only the Muslim doctors at the hospital but
3 the Serb doctors, too, out of fear left the hospital, their patients,
4 seeking to find a solution for themselves and their families.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you mind if I just ask a question.
6 Doctor, were any Serb doctors detained at the KP Dom or at any
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Foca?
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Foca, I don't know -- not in
11 Foca as far as I know. In other towns in Bosnia-Herzegovina, probably.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Don't speculate. Thank you so much.
13 You may proceed, Madam Harbour.
14 MS. HARBOUR: Could I please have 65 ter 31524 on the screen.
15 Q. And, Dr. Maric, this is a map of the area around Foca town that
16 identifies various places that are relevant to this case. These places
17 include the health centre, KP Dom, and the hospital. So once we have the
18 map on the screen -- can you understand the English markings?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Okay. In that case I will go through them. At the very top of
21 the map, the marking points to the hospital. Can you verify that this is
22 where the hospital was located?
23 A. Yes, the right bank of the Drina. Correct.
24 Q. Further down the next marking is "KP Dom." Can you verify that
25 is the correct location?
1 A. KP Dom, yes, yes.
2 Q. Now moving to the left along the Drina, we have the SUP; is that
3 correct -- in the correct location?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Continuing down there is Partizan Hall; is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Turning towards the right now there is Aladza Mosque; is that --
8 is that correct?
9 A. It's on the right bank of the Cehotina and here it's on the left.
10 The Aladza Mosque is on the banks of the Cehotina.
11 Q. Okay. If we continue to the right, the health centre is marked;
12 is that the location of the health centre?
13 A. Yes, yes.
14 Q. And finally the last marking is the high school; is that correct?
15 A. The high school is on the right bank of the Cehotina, not the
16 left one.
17 Q. Okay.
18 MS. HARBOUR: Your Honour, bearing in mind the witness's
19 testimony about the map, I would still like to tender this into evidence,
20 given the place -- locations that he was able to confirm.
21 MR. IVETIC: Well, I don't know -- I don't know how we're going
22 to deal with the correction. I still don't know the source of the map,
23 if the scale has been added by the Prosecution or if that's from the map
24 itself. If the scale is with the map, that's fine; if it's been added by
25 the Prosecution, then we need to know how they've derived it.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, who put on the scale? It looks like it
2 comes with the map, but I don't want to pre-empt your answer.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Your microphone.
4 [Prosecution counsel confer]
5 MS. HARBOUR: Your Honours, I am informed that our mapping unit
6 includes this scale based on the side -- the scale of the original map.
7 This was originally a topographical map of Bosnia and Herzegovina which
8 was 1:25.000, so the mapping people derived this scale from that scale,
9 the original map.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I put one question to the witness in relation
11 to this map.
12 Witness, you said the high school is on the right bank of the
13 Cehotina River?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: If you look at the map, it is indicated there
16 that it is indeed on the right bank of the river, so there is no
17 contradiction. It is the last marking on the top right -- in the lower
18 right corner.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I saw these red
20 markings, and I think that if the arrow is by the road, then what I said
21 and what is written here is correct.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Then the marking is correct?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I said it was on the right
24 bank of the Cehotina; that's where the high school is. So I didn't see
25 the Aladza Mosque and the health centre.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And you agree with almost all markings except the
2 Aladza Mosque; is that correctly understood?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: The mistakes have been reduced by 50 per cent.
5 What is Defence's position?
6 MR. IVETIC: They are, Your Honour. And as long as we are not
7 then going to rely upon the markings as being authoritative, they can be
8 demonstrative of approximate locations.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thanks. We appreciate it.
10 Then the map then would be -- did you ask for it to be admitted?
11 MS. HARBOUR: Yes, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's right.
13 The map is admitted into evidence. May it please be given an
14 exhibit number.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be P6866.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. P6866.
17 You may proceed, Madam Harbour.
18 MS. HARBOUR:
19 Q. Mr. Witness, this Chamber has heard evidence that Muslim
20 prisoners in KP Dom were kept in poor conditions, that they were
21 freezing, that they were underfed, that they were physically beaten, that
22 there were Muslims who were very sick, who suffered serious heart
23 problems, or who were mentally ill while they were detained in KP Dom,
24 and some people, especially elderly people, died as a result of these
25 poor conditions.
1 MS. HARBOUR: This is, for Your Honours, from Exhibit P738, pages
2 7 to 8, which is under seal.
3 Q. Now, you have made some assertions in paragraphs 19 and 20 of
4 your statement. You've stated that as far as you knew there was no
5 discrimination in the treatment of KP Dom detainees, that military and
6 civilian authorities had no influence over the doctors, and that
7 detainees went to the hospital when that was necessary. Now, you do not
8 have actual knowledge of the health conditions of the detainees in
9 KP Dom; is that correct?
10 A. The KP Dom is a separate institution. It takes care of
11 everything including the health care for its clients, so I'm not familiar
12 with the situation but I know that patients before the conflict and
13 during the conflict -- I mean patients from the KP Dom. And to this day
14 since they do not have comprehensive medical care, they are sent to the
15 hospital when necessary. And even during the conflict those who came to
16 the hospital were also operated on. Now what the situation is, I would
17 not be a relevant person to say what their situation was because I wasn't
18 up there.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Does it mean, then, Doctor, that when you are
20 alleged to have said that so far as you knew there was no discrimination
21 in the treatment of KP Dom detainees, you were not correct?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that in the context
23 because --
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not asking you to explain --
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- when --
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm just asking: You were not correct; is that
2 correct? Because you have just told us you don't know the conditions in
3 the KP Dom.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But, Your Honour, doctors from the
5 hospital who helped and who went up there during the conflict, they --
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Shall I stop you there? Shall I stop you there?
7 You have said two statements which are inconsistent. You have said in
8 your statement that people in the KP Dom were not discriminated against.
9 Now you are saying the KP Dom was a separate institution, you have no
10 knowledge of the conditions there; therefore, when you said that people
11 were not discriminated in the KP Dom, you were not correct.
12 MR. IVETIC: But, Your Honour, ignoring the evidence that he's
13 testified about detainees coming to be treated as patients in the
14 hospital, of which he was involved in, and that's the evidence that was
15 right after that.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Detainees in the hospital are detainees in the
17 hospital. I'm talking about --
18 MR. IVETIC: No, detainees -- Your Honour, detainees from KP Dom
19 to the hospital.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: From KP -- I accept that. Detainees from KP Dom
21 to the hospital are detained -- I'm talking about detainees in the
22 KP Dom, not who were taken to hospital.
23 MR. IVETIC: The detainees from KP Dom are taken to the hospital;
24 they are still detainees of KP Dom, Your Honour. So I think
25 Your Honour's assertion that his statement is incorrect is not entirely
1 in line with the evidence that has been led.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me quote to you what Madam Harbour quoted and
3 which you didn't object to. Now, if you look at page 11 from line 19,
4 Madam Harbour quotes paragraph 19 of the accused [sic] and 20 and she
6 "You have stated that as far as you knew there was no
7 discrimination in the treatment of KP Dom detainees ..."
8 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, in the treatment of KP Dom detainees.
9 If you look at temporary transcript page 12, lines 1 through 4, the
10 witness says that:
11 "... KP Dom is a separate institution. It takes care of
12 everything including the health care for its clients, so I'm not familiar
13 with the situation but I know that patients before the conflict and
14 during the conflict, I mean patients from the KP Dom and to this day,
15 since they do not have comprehensive medical care they are sent to the
16 hospital when necessary. And even during the conflict, those who came to
17 the hospital were also operated on."
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Overlapping speakers] --
19 MR. IVETIC: That's what the situation is.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Overlapping speakers] --
21 MR. IVETIC: That's in line with his statement.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: He's speaking about patients. We don't know about
23 what was done to those detainees who were not patients, so he can't talk
24 about the treatment of detainees at the KP Dom; he can talk about the
25 patients who came from the KP Dom who -- for his treatment.
1 MR. IVETIC: Well, Your Honours, when he's talking about
2 treatment as a doctor, there is only one type of treatment, that's
3 medical treatment.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: I overrule your objection. Thank you.
5 MR. IVETIC: Okay.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Indiscernible]
7 Please proceed, Madam Harbour.
8 MS. HARBOUR:
9 Q. I'd like to move on to a different topic now, Dr. Maric.
10 Yesterday at transcript page 27554, you said that during April 1992 you
11 treated 48 patients surgically and 37 of those patients were Muslim. I
12 would like to ask you about a number of the wounded people from Foca who
13 were treated at your hospital during this period.
14 MS. HARBOUR: So if we could please have 65 ter 1D04416 and page
15 24 in the English, page 12 in the B/C/S.
16 Q. As this is coming up, just for your reference, this is the
17 patients admission log that you've referred to in a few paragraphs in
18 your statement. Here at number 2663, we have Mensur Borovina, born in
19 1982; and then number 2664 is Mohammed Softic, born in 1989. In the
20 diagnosis column we see variations of vulnera sclopetaria for both. Are
21 you following me?
22 A. No, because on the right-hand side one page is missing. It's a
23 book with two pages, one of each side and the right-hand side page is
24 missing. That's why I can't follow you.
25 Q. Yes.
1 MS. HARBOUR: If we could --
2 Q. Now do you see the column, the diagnosis column?
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Perhaps we can remove the English version and
4 look at the B/C/S version and that can be enlarged.
5 MS. HARBOUR: Sure.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: There we are.
7 MS. HARBOUR: Thank you for the suggestion, Your Honour.
8 Q. Dr. Maric, these diagnoses of, again, Mensur Borovina and
9 Mohammed Softic indicate injuries due to firearms; correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Can you confirm that these entries reflect that Muslim children,
12 approximately 10 and 3 years old, had been shot?
13 A. I can't be an expert on that. I can just tell you that this is a
14 diagnosis, vulnera sclopetarium, and that those who suffered those wounds
15 were young patients, children. Softic was a child.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Ms. Harbour.
17 MS. HARBOUR: Yes, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You said 10 and 3 years old. What do you mean by
19 that? If we look at the entry 2663, the date of birth should be 1982.
20 And what about the other one, born in 1962?
21 MS. HARBOUR: 1989.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Now you are referring to the next one?
23 MS. HARBOUR: Yes.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
25 MS. HARBOUR:
1 Q. Dr. Maric, can you confirm that these were Muslims, Muslim
2 children? Could you please state your answer verbally?
3 A. Yes, yes.
4 MS. HARBOUR: Could we turn now to page 12 in the English and
5 page 6 in the B/C/S. Or if Your Honours are comfortable, we could just
6 stick with the B/C/S, it may be easier for the witness to look at the
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: As you propose.
9 MS. HARBOUR: In that case page 6 in the B/C/S, please.
10 Q. Here at number 2605, we see Halim Dzalilovic [phoen], born in
11 1929 from Codor Mahala in Foca, diagnosis vulnus sclopetarium. Further
12 down at 2609 we see Hamdija Hadzimuratovic, born in 1923, same diagnosis.
13 These entries reflect that Muslims in their 60s also had fire-arm
14 injuries; is that correct?
15 A. It is correct but war and arms did not make a distinction between
16 young and old. A total of 2.500 people were wounded in Foca during the
18 MS. HARBOUR: Could we now turn to page 14 in the English -- or,
19 actually, we'll just turn to page 7 in the B/C/S and we'll focus on the
21 Q. At item 2615 we have Ismeta Hodzic, daughter of Dzemal, worker in
22 a sock factory, same diagnosis.
23 MS. HARBOUR: And then if we could turn to page 10 in the B/C/S.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you want any comment on this?
25 MS. HARBOUR: I would like to --
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- 2615.
2 MS. HARBOUR: I would like to --
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Deal with them as a group.
4 MS. HARBOUR: -- deal with both of these at the same --
5 Q. We see at number 2648 further down, Jasmina Sirbubalo, same
6 diagnosis. From these entries we see that Muslim women were also
7 admitted after receiving fire-arms injuries in April 1992; is that
8 correct, Dr. Maric?
9 A. It is correct, yes. But I told you what happened: 2500 people
10 were wounded. I myself treated 2500 Serbs. I operated on them. There
11 were also people of other ethnicities. I treated them personally.
12 Q. Dr. Maric, if you could just answer my questions we would -- that
13 would be much appreciated. Now, you said in paragraph 5 of your
14 statement that the conflicts forced people to "go where their own people
15 were." Did incidents of women, children, and the elderly being shot
16 contribute to Foca's Muslims moving to where their own people were, as
17 you put it?
18 A. The conflicts in Foca lasted for perhaps 10 days or a fortnight.
19 I can't remember exactly. And it is in turn that as a result there was a
20 lot fear, a lot of people wounded, and people dealt with that situation
21 as best as they could. Some 500 to 800 of them stayed at the hospital at
22 first and they were of all ethnicities, and after that --
23 Q. I'm sorry to interrupt you. Do you agree with me that these
24 incidents contributed to Muslims moving to where their own people were,
25 as you put it?
1 A. Of course. Separated families decided to unite where they felt
2 the safest, and that would be my answer. And they felt the safest --
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I stop you, Doctor. Can I suggest that you
4 please listen carefully to the question, and we are not asking you to
5 justify --
6 THE WITNESS: Okay.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- or explain why things happened. You are just
8 being asked to say why things happened or didn't happen. The question is
9 simply: Do you agree that these shootings contributed to the Muslims
10 going to their own people? I suppose they might have contributed to the
11 Serbs going to their own people?
12 MR. IVETIC: And, Your Honour, he has answered the question. He
13 answered the question with the first answer of that answer. So what's
14 the objection? What's the problem?
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: What --
16 MR. IVETIC: He said "of course." He said "of course." That's
17 an answer, is it not?
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, and then he went on to explain, which I said
19 please --
20 MR. IVETIC: Okay. Well, he has answered the question. You're
21 implying that he has not answered the question. He listened to the
22 question, he answered the question. I fail to see the problem.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Ivetic, you should calm down.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah --
25 MR. IVETIC: -- I agree, but I --
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: It will help you if you can.
2 MR. IVETIC: Okay.
3 MS. HARBOUR:
4 Q. I would like to talk to you now about a few of the Muslim
5 children which are on the paediatric ward admission list which you have
6 also discussed in your statement.
7 MS. HARBOUR: If we could please have 65 ter 1D4415, and if we --
8 if Your Honours don't mind, I will continue to only show the B/C/S. So
9 that's page 5 in the B/C/S.
10 Q. In rows 154 and 155 we see Selma and Jasenko Tafro born in 1984
11 and 1985, so they were around 7 and 8 years old, and we see there is no
12 diagnosis for them. In the diagnosis column it simply says "moved to
13 ophthalmology ward." Do you know why these two children ended up in Foca
15 A. No. But the hospital was open to everybody who knocked on the
16 door. We accommodated the children where we had room for them and then
17 they left on the 25th of September, both of them, when we found a way to
18 place them with their families. I don't know when they were admitted as
19 a matter of fact. They were admitted on the 28th of August, which means
20 that they spent about a month in the hospital. They were not with the
21 sick and the wounded, but we looked after them. They did not have to be
22 physically sick. We still looked after them because they were under a
23 lot stress and they had nowhere to go, so both these children spent about
24 a month with us before we were able to find them a place to go to.
25 MS. HARBOUR: Could we please have 65 ter 31521, page 3 in the
1 English and there is only the one page in B/C/S.
2 Q. You may be familiar with Janko Janjic, also known as Tuta. He
3 was indicted at this Tribunal for crimes that he committed against
4 Muslims in Foca as part of a unit under Brane Cosovic.
5 MS. HARBOUR: And I also refer Your Honours to Exhibit P979,
6 paragraph 68, which is under seal.
7 Q. This article from the 14th of September, 1994, states in the last
8 paragraph in the English --
9 MS. HARBOUR: And in the B/C/S it's on the far right column, the
10 second paragraph. So maybe that can be enlarged for the witness.
11 Q. Here it states:
12 "Tuta and his accomplices first raped the mother of the
13 8-year-old Jasko and his slightly older sister Selma Tafro and then
14 killed her and her husband Tafro in front of her neighbours and the
15 aforementioned children in Samoborska Street in the centre of town."
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Where can we find it in the English?
17 MS. HARBOUR: That is at the bottom paragraph.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
19 MS. HARBOUR: Second sentence.
20 Q. Now, Dr. Maric, you said that these children were under a lot
21 stress and they had nowhere to go. Isn't it true that they were taken to
22 the hospital because their parents were killed and there was nowhere else
23 to send them?
24 A. On admission into every health care institution, a reason has to
25 be stated for admission. I'm a surgeon. I don't know anything about the
1 admission procedure. Those children were admitted and they were looked
2 after for a month. I'm a surgeon. I work in the operating room. I
3 don't know why those children were admitted. I know that these children
4 spent a month at the eye department. Not only the two of them, there
5 were other children who shared their fate and they were in the same
6 situation. So that's all I can tell you.
7 Q. Now, you've mentioned that there were other children who shared
8 their fate.
9 MS. HARBOUR: If we could go back to 65 ter 1D4415, page 5 in the
11 Q. I'd like to ask you just about two more of these children.
12 MS. HARBOUR: While that's coming up, Your Honours, could I
13 tender this article into evidence? It's 6 --
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is that 31521?
15 MS. HARBOUR: Yes, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: I see no objection.
17 Yes, Mr. Registrar, its admitted, may it please be given an
18 exhibit number.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. That will be Exhibit P6867.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
21 You may proceed, Madam Harbour.
22 MS. HARBOUR:
23 Q. On this page just above the Tafro siblings, we see in row 153
24 Azra Ramovic, born in 1988. And again, it simply states that she was
25 moved to the ophthalmology ward. Yesterday at transcript page 27547, you
1 identified Azra as one of the children who was taken to Igalo after 1993.
2 A. Yes, yes.
3 Q. Further down on the same page we see in row 160 Kemal, and if you
4 can make out his surname it seems to be Soro, born in 1988, also sent to
5 the ophthalmology ward?
6 A. Soro.
7 Q. Soro.
8 A. Born?
9 Q. Do you know why Azra and Kemal were at Foca hospital?
10 A. Azra Ramovic spent anything between a year and then three years
11 with a group of the seven children that I sent to Igalo. When children
12 are cured and when we don't have anywhere to send them, we put them at
13 other departments. They don't have to stay at children -- so she was
14 also at the eye department until 1993 when she was taken to Igalo. Don't
15 think that the fact that children are moved from one department to
16 another in the hospital that it is something strange. First, they are
17 treated at the child disease department and --
18 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to slow down.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated].
20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge, please.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: If you speak too fast, they can't -- they are not
22 able to keep up with you, so speak slowly. Thank you so much.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for this young boy Soro, he was
24 discharged on the 25th of September, 1992. I can't see the date of
25 admission, but I suppose that -- I don't know. This seems to be
1 April 04. I can't see that. He was not wounded. He was not sick.
2 That's why he was kept at the department for eye diseases. It was a
3 large department. The -- there were few patients. The eye disease
4 department is for eye diseases, but I don't want you to be confused about
5 the fact that we kept children there. There was nowhere else to keep
6 them. Once they were treated and they were cured and when there was no
7 other department to go to, we would move them to the eye diseases
9 MS. HARBOUR:
10 Q. Thank you. That's understood. We have a statement from
11 Kemal Soro.
12 MS. HARBOUR: If we could have 65 ter 31519, please.
13 Q. As this is coming up, I will just summarise for you what the
14 statement says. He says on page 2 that one days Serb soldiers attacked
15 his house in the area of Foca called Codor Mahala. His father and his
16 uncle were taken to KP Dom. On page 3 he says he moved to his
17 grandparents house.
18 MS. HARBOUR: And if we could now go to page 4.
19 Q. Kemal said that Serb soldiers attacked his grandparents' house as
20 well. He hid in the tree while Serb soldiers set fire to the house and
21 fired shots. The next morning Kemal went to the house of a Serb
22 neighbour. The Serb neighbour directed him to the hospital. Kemal did
23 not know what happened to his grandfather, to his uncle, two aunts and
24 their children who had been at his grandfather's house. He was placed at
25 the hospital in a room with only Muslim children. Azra, who was 3 years
1 old, was one of the children there. She had been staying with Kemal's
2 mother and she told Kemal that Serb soldiers had come into the house, had
3 lined up everyone, had shot at their legs, and this 3-year-old had wounds
4 all over her legs. Kemal's mother and brother were killed.
5 MR. IVETIC: Can I have a reference for "Serb soldiers"; it's not
6 in the statement. If I can help, it only says "soldiers." If you
7 rephrase your question, we will remove the objection.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In the middle of paragraph 3, I see there:
9 "The female neighbour told me that she was worried that the Serb
10 soldiers would come to her house and do the same things to them and kill
12 MR. IVETIC: Correct, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: End quote.
14 MR. IVETIC: I'm sure that you appreciate that it's two different
15 incidents we're talking about. She's talking about the next paragraph,
16 which is a different incident.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I just quoted from the statement, nothing else.
18 MR. IVETIC: Agreed.
19 MS. HARBOUR:
20 Q. Dr. Maric, soldiers. Azra was telling Kemal about an incident
21 when soldiers came into her house, lined up everyone in the house, shot
22 at their legs. She was 3 years old. She had wounds all over her legs
23 and Kemal's mother and brother were killed.
24 And is it correct, Dr. Maric, that like the Tafro siblings, Kemal
25 and Azra were at Foca hospital because their families were killed and
1 there was nowhere else to send them?
2 A. The only place -- actually, the boy could not be sent from the
3 place where he was to the hospital on his own. Somebody had to bring him
4 because he was 3 kilometres away. Why they were brought to the hospital,
5 I don't know. I told you already that I'm a surgeon and whoever sought
6 medical attention was admitted. They could be admitted for sickness,
7 injuries, or other conditions. And I was never on any patient's
8 admission, so I can't answer your question as to why they were admitted.
9 I'm just saying that the young boy had to be brought by somebody because
10 the place from which he arrived was 3 kilometres away from the hospital.
11 Q. But you agree that Muslim children who were not wounded were held
12 at the hospital for periods of time because there was not another place
13 to send them? I think you've already given a -- you've already mentioned
15 A. I'm giving you about the good thing. I'm telling you that even a
16 hospital who was not originally tasked with that role still performed
17 that role, irrespective of other legally prescribed duties. The hospital
18 performed a humanitarian task as well. We were supposed to admit sick
19 and wounded and treat them, but we did other things as well. Even today
20 we have children --
21 Q. Dr. Maric --
22 A. -- in hospital whose parents don't want to look after them so we
23 look after them, we bring them up, we try to find a place for them to
24 live. So this is our humanitarian role as well.
25 Q. I understand. Thank you.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: How much longer are you likely to be,
2 Madam Harbour?
3 MS. HARBOUR: I would probably take another 15 minutes.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That's much more than the 45 minutes you have
6 MS. HARBOUR: I'm not sure where we are on time now, but I think
7 you are correct. If -- with your indulgence, I would seek an extra 15
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Try to be focused also in your questions. If the
10 witness has already said something, there is no need to go back to it,
11 for instance.
12 MS. HARBOUR: Thank you, Your Honour. I will do so.
13 In paragraph -- would -- should we take a break now a bit early
14 or -- before I move into the next section, or should I continue for five
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Would you take more than three minutes?
17 MS. HARBOUR: Maybe not. Let me finish this next session.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let's finish it.
19 MS. HARBOUR:
20 Q. In paragraph 11 of your statement, Dr. Maric, you stated that in
21 1992 you tried to hand children from other ethnic groups over to Muslim
22 authorities, and you said the reason to this was:
23 "Out of fear that a drunk or a madman would come to the hospital
24 and harm those children."
25 There is evidence in this case that armed guards took several
1 Muslims from the hospital in late April and shot them outside the
3 MS. HARBOUR: And this is from P741, paragraph 4, which is under
5 Q. Was this the kind of incident that made you fear that those
6 children might be harmed?
7 A. This is not true. Nobody was taken out of the hospital or killed
8 within the hospital's perimeter. There was a war and as a living being I
9 was afraid and I was afflicted by other things as a result of the
10 conflict, that's why I sympathised with all the people who survived the
11 conflict in Bosnia that lasted from 1992 to 1995.
12 MS. HARBOUR: Could we please -- could we please have Exhibit 989
13 on the screen.
14 Q. And in moving into a different topic now. This is a report --
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: This is a P number, 989?
16 MS. HARBOUR: P989.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I ask the witness.
18 Sir, the incident Ms. Harbour referred to, is it not true that
19 this happened, that patients were taken out and killed during the war at
20 any time? Are you saying that this never happened?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I'm saying is that the
22 hospital admitted people, treated them, and discharged them. If a person
23 is discharged, well, they leave the hospital.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is not the question. The question is: If
25 at any point in time during the war patients were taken out by other
1 people, not by people of the hospital, and killed outside. Did that ever
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that. I don't think
4 that that could have ever happened.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At least unbeknownst to me because
7 I'm a man who was there.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You don't know. Thank you.
9 MS. HARBOUR:
10 Q. This -- if I could turn your attention now to the screen. This
11 is a report dated the 12th of October, 1992. To --
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: 12th or 10th?
13 MS. HARBOUR: 10th -- my apologies, 10th of October, 1992.
14 Q. Sent from Marko Kovac to the Herzegovina Corps. And in item
15 number 3 it discusses an ICRC visit to the Foca hospital where they had
16 private conversations with 21 Muslims, eight women, and two men.
17 MS. HARBOUR: And if we could turn to page 2 in the English.
18 Q. We see that Kovac states under item 4:
19 "We have 21 Muslim children and a number of women for exchange,
20 or we would send them to Gorazde."
21 Dr. Maric, you said that the hospital tried to hand children over
22 to the Muslim authorities, was that so that they could be exchanged?
23 A. I don't know about this. I don't know what Kovac was saying.
24 It's 1992 when I was not director of the hospital. But certainly a
25 longer stay and then there is this interest, we were friends.
1 Irrespective of ethnicity there were certainly links and we certainly
2 wanted to help one another. That's what I spoke about. This exchange
3 that Kovac is speaking about, I don't know. He probably came and took
4 that number of patients and wrote to his superior command, I think.
5 Q. And just going back to your statement when you said that you
6 tried to hand children over to the Muslim authorities. In your -- when
7 you testified in Karadzic, you did say that you were involved in the
8 exchange of some children for Serbs. Is that -- do you stand by that?
9 A. In 1992 Dzudo, who was there for two years, a little boy, and the
10 daughter of a friend of ours, we tried to hand them over at Osanica;
11 that's where the separation line was. We tried to hand them over to the
12 other entity because their parents were there. We didn't manage the
13 first time. We went back and then we tried again to hand them over
14 because they were our friends. We tried to bring them to the line
15 safely. I think that the little boy, Dzudo, was handed over, and
16 Revko Prguda was handed over and then Dzudo when he celebrated his 20th
17 birthday he came to the children's department at the hospital in Foca
18 where he had spent so much time. So it wasn't an exchange. It was just
19 what I tried to explain to you, that they were handed over to the other
20 side, the Muslim side, where Gorazde was and the Muslim forces.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could you then try to answer the question that was
22 put to you, Doctor. Your answer doesn't answer the question that was put
23 to you. The question that was put to you was: Do you stand by the
24 testimony that you gave in the Karadzic case that --
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- just listen to me -- that.
2 MS. HARBOUR: If I could --
3 MR. IVETIC: And, Your Honours, if --
4 MS. HARBOUR: -- excuse me.
5 MR. IVETIC: -- we are going to do testimony, I believe the
6 procedure in this courtroom has also been to present the testimony if we
7 are going to ask a witness to stand by it.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's a different story.
10 MS. HARBOUR: Your Honours, his -- what he has just described
11 does comport with his Karadzic testimony and that would be at Karadzic
12 transcript page 35606 to 35607, and where he talks about this exchange of
13 this boy, Dzuderija. So if Your Honours are satisfied --
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you for the explanation. Does that round
15 off your point?
16 MS. HARBOUR: Yes, it does, Your Honours, and I'm --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Is it convenient to take a break right now?
18 MS. HARBOUR: It is, yes.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: We will take a break now -- and you will be -- can
20 you be back in 20 minutes, Dr. Maric, that will be at five to 11.00.
21 Thank you so much. You may follow the usher.
22 [The witness stands down]
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: We adjourn and come back at five to 11.00. Court
25 --- Recess taken at 10.36 a.m.
1 --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Ivetic.
3 MR. IVETIC: While we wait for the witness, Your Honour, I again
4 rise to clarify the record in relation to Your Honour's question at
5 transcript page 12, line 10. Paragraph 19 of the witness's statement
6 which is in evidence is as D730 does not relate to detainees at KP Dom
7 but relates exclusively to the patients in the KPD as the witness
8 testified in court so that that should hopefully clarify the record.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, I see ...
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Ivetic, it is at least possible to understand
11 it in a different way.
12 [The witness takes the stand]
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In the -- no discrimination in the treatment of
14 patients in the KPD. That may relate to treatment -- no discrimination
15 of treatments in the KP Dom.
16 MR. IVETIC: I don't know where the disconnect is. I'm talking
17 about patients as well in the KP Dom, not detainees that are not patients
18 which was the -- Your Honour's question -- Your Honour's --
19 Judge Moloto's question.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It doesn't say "from KP Dom" but "in KP Dom."
21 MR. IVETIC: Agreed. Agreed.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: So -- and therefore it is understandable to
23 understand it in that way.
24 MR. IVETIC: To relate to patients, correct.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated].
1 What Judge Fluegge is saying it is also capable to say that
2 people who are in the KP Dom treated the detainees in the KP Dom in a
3 particular fashion.
4 MR. IVETIC: In it's related to patients. Your Honour's question
5 was related to --
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Of course --
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah --
8 MR. IVETIC: -- persons that were not patients. It's
9 specifically included --
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: But the statement says "detainees," it doesn't say
12 MR. IVETIC: It says "patients" actually, Your Honour. That's
13 why I'm rising to clarify that the statement only says "patients." It
14 does not say "detainees."
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: There is no dispute about that.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: There is no dispute about that.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But "in the KP Dom." This is --
19 MR. IVETIC: Correct.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- the problem. Yes.
21 MR. IVETIC: There is no problem there. That's correct.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
23 Yes, Madam Harbour, you may proceed.
24 MS. HARBOUR:
25 Q. Dr. Maric, in October 1993 Karadzic visited Foca hospital to
1 celebrate the opening of the medical school; is that correct?
2 A. Karadzic and his wife visited the Foca hospital. A visit was
3 organised to the Foca hospital.
4 MS. HARBOUR: Could we please have 65 ter 31518B.
5 Q. Dr. Maric, the document I'm calling up is the transcript of a
6 radio presentation covering Dr. Karadzic's visit to the hospital in 1993.
7 The announcer states that this was Karadzic's first visit to Foca.
8 MS. HARBOUR: And if we turn to page 2 in the English and B/C/S.
9 Q. We see that Karadzic said:
10 "We had no problems in Foca, which is why we have not visited
12 And then he ends his speech by saying:
13 "It is important for the citizens of Foca to know that the Muslim
14 republic has given up on Foca."
15 The reporter then announces that Karadzic visited the medical
17 MS. HARBOUR: And if we could turn to page 3.
18 Q. The reporter refers to Maksimovic, Petko Cancar,
19 Dr. Veljko Maric, and Drina Tactical Group Commander Marko Kovac. One of
20 these speakers indicated as US2 states that Karadzic could:
21 "... see today with his own eyes that life in Foca is organised
22 in a typical Serbian way ..."
23 And he goes on to praise the functional civilian government, the
24 secure front lines, the revived economy and education system.
25 MS. HARBOUR: And now if we could turn to page 4 in both
2 Q. The speaker US4, which is NG4 in B/C/S, says:
3 "We shall continue as we have performed so far and
4 President Radovan Karadzic will continue to be happy with our work. He
5 has approved our plans and encouraged us in our sound medical thinking
6 about the future and in general ..."
7 And then in the last line:
8 "... the Medical School must be the first faculty to open in our
9 new state."
10 Dr. Maric, you were NG4, the speaker who gave this last speech;
11 is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. The next speaker was Marko Kovac, who said:
14 "I am very happy that I had the honour today to be in the
15 presence of our Supreme Commander."
16 Several lines later, he says:
17 "On behalf of the Serbian army, I am extremely grateful to our
18 Supreme Commander who spent time with us today. I wish him to continue
19 to lead us from one victory to another so we could as quickly as possible
20 defend our Serbian Republic for which he deserves a lot credit."
21 So during this event we have Karadzic saying we had no problems
22 in Foca, followed by congratulatory speeches by various leaders and
23 yourself, and concluding with Marko Kovac crediting Karadzic for the
24 situation in Foca. This event was about celebrating the success of Foca;
25 is that correct?
1 A. No. The visit of Karadzic with his wife and the director of the
2 University of Serb Sarajevo, Professor Maksimovic, and the visit to the
3 hospital - and at the time I was director of the hospital, as I am to
4 this day - and then there is my own statement. I stated that because I
5 was a student of the University of Sarajevo Medical School and already in
6 the beginning of 1993 we charted a strategy, to open two faculties in
7 Foca. The University of Serb Sarajevo did not operate before that, and I
8 pointed out that these should be the first two faculties of that
9 university because with academicians Starevic and Olga Blagojevic --
10 well, the three of us are the people who were in charge of that and to
11 this -- and today we have this university. I have to be quite frank.
12 Although I'm 60 years young, I really cannot say who said what then but I
13 can speak on my own behalf and say what I said then.
14 Q. Yes. And this -- the only question I had was whether this was a
15 celebration; is that correct?
16 A. No, no. It was a regular visit. It was the first time that
17 Dr. Karadzic visited the hospital with his wife. I remember that as
18 director of the hospital I went out to welcome President Karadzic
19 together with my colleagues in front of the reception area. It was no
20 celebration. What do you mean "celebration"?
21 Q. I think that we can leave it there.
22 MS. HARBOUR: Your Honours, I have no further questions.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
24 Any re-examination, Mr. Ivetic?
25 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honours.
1 Re-examination by Mr. Ivetic:
2 Q. Sir, I'd like to go back and talk with you about Dr. Berberkic
3 who you discussed during cross-examination at transcript page 27558
4 through 27559. You said that Dr. Berberkic left without permission.
5 What was he doing at the hospital before he left the first time without
7 A. Dr. Amir Berberkic is a doctor who specialised in surgery. He
8 assisted during our operations and this was training for his further
9 work. Of his own free will he left the operating rooms in the hospital.
10 Now, please don't take my word for it. Seven days, ten days, later he
11 was brought in by persons in uniform, Serb persons, they brought him in
12 as a wounded person and I performed surgery on him. There were old
13 wounds on him. It wasn't within six hours. Afterwards, he was
14 exchanged. I think that he lives in America with his family as far as I
15 know and he did visit Foca.
16 Q. If we can have some clarification. The transcript indicates that
17 you said afterwards he was exchanged, but my colleagues say that they
18 believe -- that they believe you said he was released. Which of the two
19 is accurate in describing what happened to him afterwards before he ended
20 up in America?
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Usually we just ask the witness to repeat himself
22 because there was a -- a confusion somewhere.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, he was discharged from the
24 hospital, but I really could not claim anything now because exchanges did
25 start, official exchanges. According to the International Red Cross, I
1 think that he was in one of these groups that were exchanged, so I infer
2 that; but I don't have exact information so that I could claim either one
3 or the other at the moment. But my conclusion is that he is alive and
4 healthy with his family in America.
5 MR. IVETIC:
6 Q. Now, you said that he was brought in as a wounded man by persons
7 in uniform. Did the -- when he was presented to you for surgery, were
8 there any notations on his medical chart regarding whom to contact after
9 the patient was treated?
10 A. Well, there was a rule. When such patients are brought in, then
11 the rule was that it would be announced when they would be discharged as
12 having been cured. So they were supposed to go home or report to
13 whoever, the police, that took him then as a prisoner of war. So that's
14 why I still stand by what I said, that he was exchanged, because POWs
15 were exchanged later on.
16 Q. Thank you. Now I'd like to move to another topic, Dr. Torlak --
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Maybe just before you do.
18 You say "POWs." Was he a POW?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, he was brought in as a
20 wounded person. I don't know.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: That doesn't make him a POW, does it?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was brought in and he surgery
23 performed on him -- oh, well, then I do apologise. I mean, for me he was
24 a wounded person, he was operated on, he was treated, cured, so I agree,
25 Your Honour.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much for the explanation.
2 Yes, Mr. Ivetic.
3 MR. IVETIC:
4 Q. Now, if we can move to Dr. Torlak. You say at transcript
5 page 27556 that he had documents from the authorities. Could you please
6 clarify for us what kind of documents and from what authorities?
7 A. Well, probably at that time one could not leave the area,
8 probably, that was covered by the local authorities without some papers
9 from the local authorities or the military authorities. I don't know
10 which documents these are, but certainly there had to be document if he
11 was given a car by Dr. Stanic to be taken to Rogatica. I mean, he must
12 have had some kind of valid documents that all people who were leaving
13 the municipality of Foca had to have at the time.
14 Q. And when you say all people had to have, would that be
15 irrespective of their ethnicity?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Then what do you mean, "all people who were leaving the
18 municipality had to have at that time"?
19 A. Yes.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's not an answer to the question. The
21 question is: What do you mean?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, as a surgeon, if I were to
23 leave the municipality of Foca for any reason, I had to have documents
24 stating that I was leaving and these documents would also state when I
25 was supposed to come back to my work. If there was a death, for
1 instance, outside Foca, or to take my child or mother somewhere, I mean,
2 I had to have certain papers in addition to a valid ID and everything
3 else. Because I was -- I was duty-bound. I had work obligation. I
4 could not just leave the hospital of my own free will to resolve my own
5 personal problems without having such papers.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I may just interrupt you there. I understand
7 as a professional you say you had to do that. The question doesn't have
8 to do with professionals or status other than ethnicity. You said no you
9 don't have to be of any ethnic group to have these papers. And what the
10 lawyer is asking you is: If that is not so, then it's not all people?
11 So what do you mean by "all people"? Which are these people, ethnically
12 speaking, who had to have these documents?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I mean all citizens -- and
14 especially we, leaving the hospital, irrespective of ethnicity, I mean,
15 we are professionals needed by the hospital so that it could function.
16 We are not in hospital because of ethnicity. All of us who were at the
17 hospital were duty-bound to carry out the work that we happened to be
18 doing at the time. Like Dr. Torlak, to visit his family in Rogatica, he
19 had to have papers stating that he could go there to see them and also
20 these papers stated when he was supposed to come back.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: I leave it to you, Mr. Ivetic.
22 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
23 Q. Going back to Dr. Berberkic. Did Dr. Berberkic seek such
24 authorisation to leave the hospital and leave his duty post as a doctor
25 for whatever reason, to your knowledge?
1 A. No, no, no. No, as far as I know.
2 Q. Now, you were asked by Ms. Harbour about wounded Muslim women and
3 children that were treated at Foca hospital. Do you have knowledge of
4 any incidents in Foca where Serb women and children were shot, wounded,
5 and/or killed during 1992?
6 A. In Foca at the 19th of December, 1992, in the area of Osanica, 56
7 civilians were killed, civilians and soldiers, belonging to three
8 generations aged 3 to 90. The following day in a field 42 Serb civilians
9 and soldiers were killed. And in 1992 at Poljici 20 persons were killed.
10 And in July 40 civilians in the area of Jabuka. These were crimes that
11 affected 100 persons per day within two days. The Foca hospital took
12 care of 2.500 persons, civilians and soldiers. Since there isn't a
13 mortuary in the city - it is the hospital that handled all of that - 650
14 dead citizens of Foca were taken care of there.
15 Q. Thank you. Now, in the last part of the cross-examination you
16 were shown a speech which involved even some words of President Karadzic
17 where he was quoted as saying:
18 "The Muslim republic has given up on Foca ..."
19 What did you understand those words to mean in the context of
20 events in Foca? What had been announced by Muslim authorities for Foca
21 prior to the war?
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: There are two questions there or more than one at
23 least. Can we split them?
24 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
25 Q. Let's go with what --
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did you understand?
2 MR. IVETIC:
3 Q. What did you understand the words uttered by Mr. Karadzic - "the
4 Muslim republic has given up on Foca" - to mean?
5 A. Probably some divisions, that Foca would not be part of the other
6 entity. That was my ...
7 Q. And now my second question: What had been announced by Muslim
8 authorities for Foca before the war?
9 A. Well, Foca is a geographical area that is between Sarajevo and
10 Sandzak. Before 1992, there were pre-election activities, big gatherings
11 of the Muslim people from all parts of the former Yugoslavia. There
12 would be 100.000 persons attending these gatherings. So Foca was
13 probably a place that was of interest. I don't know how come. Probably
14 in these global terms, this global planning and everything else in terms
15 of its geographical structure, and that gave rise to tensions and fear
16 among all the citizens of Foca.
17 Q. Doctor, I thank you for your time both yesterday and today. On
18 behalf of my client and the rest of the team I thank you.
19 MR. IVETIC: And, Your Honours, I have no further questions at
20 this time.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 MS. HARBOUR: I have no questions for this witness. Just I would
24 like to tender 65 ter 31518B, which was the series of speeches.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Ms. Harbour, isn't it correct that most of that
1 was read into the transcript?
2 MS. HARBOUR: Yes, Your Honours, and the witness confirmed that
3 he was present at that event and that he indeed said some of the words
4 that were read.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This -- and I asked if it is really necessary to
6 have it in evidence because everything you put to the witness was read
7 into the transcript?
8 MS. HARBOUR: Yes, Your Honours, but I did not read the entire
9 speech; it would have taken too long.
10 MR. IVETIC: I forget, did we have a translation of that one?
11 MS. HARBOUR: Yes.
12 MR. IVETIC: Okay. Its up to you, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated].
14 65 ter 31518B is admitted into evidence. May it please be given
15 an exhibit number, Mr. Registrar.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P6868, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
18 MR. IVETIC: And then, Your Honours, the only remaining issue is
19 the associated exhibits, there were three of them, which I would again
20 re-tender at this time given their use in cross-examination.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Harbour.
22 MS. HARBOUR: We have no objections, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Harbour.
24 MS. HARBOUR: We have no objections.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are these the long list of names?
1 MR. IVETIC: That's correct.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we --
3 MR. IVETIC: One is and the other two are shorter I think
4 two-page and one-page --
5 MS. HARBOUR: There's two long lists and one short one.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we defer this decision --
7 MR. IVETIC: We can, of course.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.
9 Doctor, thank you so much for coming to the Tribunal to testify.
10 This brings us to the end of your testimony at the Tribunal. You may now
11 leave. Please travel well back home. You may follow the usher.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you
13 [The witness withdrew]
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just before we call the next witness, let me just
15 make some corrigenda items.
16 Now, there is a Rule 92 ter statement for Nedjo Vlaski. On the
17 14th of October, 2014, in its response to the Defence's Rule 92 ter
18 motion for Witness Vlaski, the Prosecution opposed 52 paragraphs of the
19 witness's statement. The Prosecution stated it opposes these paragraphs
20 as they primarily discuss matters that occurred prior to September 1991
21 and that the statement gives information with an unclear foundation of
22 the witness's personal knowledge.
23 The Chamber acknowledges that it has previously admitted
24 statements containing certain contextual pre-indictment information as
25 well as unsourced opinions. Having reviewed the statement of
1 Witness Vlaski, the Chamber is however concerned with the high amount of
2 pre-indictment information and unsourced opinion evidence, almost
3 exceeding the amount of factual evidence specifically connected to the
4 indictment. The Chamber therefore instructs the Defence to seriously
5 consider redacting the statement before tendering it into court.
6 And then I also want to deal with the associates exhibits of the
7 same witness.
8 The Chamber notes that on the 21st of October, 2014, the Defence
9 filed a motion to tender 11 exhibits associated with the Rule 92 ter
10 statement of Witness Nedjo Vlaski. The Chamber notes that the document
11 bearing 65 ter 1D05124 is missing the correct English translation. The
12 Chamber invites the Defence to consider reducing the number of associated
13 exhibits by, for example, tendering some of these documents with the
14 witness during examination-in-chief.
15 Maybe I might as well deal with the last item while we have the
16 time, verification of translation procedure.
17 During the testimony of Ratko Adzic, document P6695 was MFI'd due
18 to a translation issue. Through an informal communication the Defence
19 stated that it found errors in the translation. The Chamber hereby
20 advises the Defence to follow the normal procedure for requesting a
21 verification of translations of documents from CLSS and report back once
22 revised translation is received.
23 That concludes that.
24 Mr. Lukic, is the Defence ready to call the next witness?
25 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour, and my colleague Stojanovic will
1 lead the next witness.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
3 Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.
4 I see Mr. -- both counsel on this side are standing. I will give
5 the lady preference.
6 Yes, Madam Harbour.
7 MS. HARBOUR: Thank you, Your Honours. With your indulgence I
8 would like to be excused from court.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are most excused. You are very much excused.
10 MS. HARBOUR: Thank you.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Traldi.
12 MR. TRALDI: Good morning, Your Honour. I have one preliminary
13 matter related to the next witness, and I wonder if we might briefly move
14 into private session for it.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: In the presence of the witness?
16 [The witness entered court]
17 MR. TRALDI: I hadn't realised he was being brought in. I can
18 address it at the break.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: You don't --
20 MR. TRALDI: It relates to cross-examination, so we need not
21 interrupt him now.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
23 Good morning, Mr. Vlaski, I suppose?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, my family name is Djuric.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry, Mr. Djuric. Good morning to you.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before you testify you are expected to make a
3 declaration that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
4 else by the truth, a copy of you which has been given to you. Can you
5 please read that.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
7 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
8 WITNESS: MANE DJURIC
9 [Witness answered through interpreter]
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may be seated.
11 Mr. Djuric, you will first be examined by Mr. Stojanovic who is
12 counsel for the Defence of Mr. Mladic.
13 Mr. Stojanovic.
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Good morning,
15 Your Honours.
16 Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
17 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, could you please tell us your name for the
19 A. Mane Djuric.
20 Q. Sir, did you give a statement to the Mladic Defence?
21 A. Yes, I did.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to
23 call up 65 ter 1D01730.
24 Q. Sir, on the left-hand side of your screen you will see -- or
25 rather, you already see a statement with a signature. Looking at the
1 page, could you please tell us whether the personal information is about
2 you and whether the signature is yours?
3 A. Yes, the information is correct.
4 Q. And what about the signature?
5 A. The signature is also mine.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And now let's look at the last
8 page of the document.
9 Q. Sir, you see a signature. Is it yours and did you also enter the
10 date in your own hand?
11 A. Yes, this is my signature and I entered the date myself.
12 Q. Thank you. I'm going to ask you this: When you were proofed for
13 this testimony, did you indicate a typo in paragraph 48 of your
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please look at paragraph
16 48 in e-court.
17 Q. In paragraph 48 a typo has been made which needs to be corrected.
18 The date of the document should not be the 21st of May, 1992, but the
19 30th [as interpreted] of May, 1992?
20 A. Correct. This is a typo. Not the 21st of May, 1992, but the
21 31st of May, 1992.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Just to clarify. The question was about a
24 possible date of the 30th and the witness answered the 31st of May. Is
25 that correct, 31st of May, 1992?
1 Witness, I'm asking you.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 31st of May.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I just
5 wanted to indicate that on page 47, line 6 of the record, it says "30th"
6 of May" and I said the "31st of May." Thank you.
7 Q. And now that we have made a correction in the statement,
8 Mr. Djuric, if I were to put the same questions to you today after you
9 have taken the solemn declaration to tell the truth, the whole truth, and
10 nothing but the truth, would you adhere to your statement in its
12 A. Yes, I would adhere to my statement in its entirety.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to
15 tender the witness's statement into evidence. The document number is
16 65 ter 1D01730.
17 MR. TRALDI: No objections, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
19 The statement is admitted into evidence. May it please be given
20 an exhibit number, Mr. Registrar.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit D732.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
23 Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your leave, I
25 would also like to tender three associated documents: 1D --
1 65 ter 1D02341, 1D02690, and 1D02733.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Traldi.
3 MR. TRALDI: Yes, Your Honour. No objections as to
4 65 ter 1D02341. The other two were the subject of a correction in a
5 proofing note as to what document should be in what paragraph. And just
6 to make a link with the statement, for the record, I'd request that some
7 kind of record be laid as to what they actually relate to, either the
8 proofing note be tendered or something else be done so that we can
9 connect them in the record to the statement.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Stojanovic, I see you nodding and raising a
11 hand. Could you say that in words?
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honours.
13 If the Prosecutor did not have any objections, we could admit them
14 immediately. But if there are objections, I will put my questions, I
15 will -- may establish a link with paragraph 53 as I have previously
16 informed the Prosecutor and the Trial Chamber.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Stojanovic, my understanding of the
18 Prosecution is not that they oppose the admission, but they say can you
19 clarify certain issues because there are paragraphs that need explanation
20 and are you -- are you in a position to do that? Do you understand what
21 their concern is and are you able to attend to that so that by the time
22 we admit the documents that problem has been attended to?
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'll do it briefly. Let's look
1 at paragraph 53 of the statement, which has been admitted under D732.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I just stop you there. Can we finish with the
3 admission or nonadmission of exhibits before you go to paragraph 53 of
4 the statement? Has he explained that?
5 [Microphone not activated]
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. In the
7 witness's statement there is reference to 1D13031, which supports one
8 part of the witness's statement relative to the setting up of the
9 Patriotic League and the policy pursued by the SDA with regard to the
10 admission and training of police officers.
11 The document under this number does not correspond to the text
12 because the document speaks about something entirely different, whereas
13 the documents 65 ter 1D02690 and 1D02733 would be the appropriate numbers
14 that would reflect what the witness stated in paragraph 53 of his
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, if I may just get clarification. Which of
17 these two, 1D02690 and 1D02733, would support this paragraph and replace
18 1D13031, or do they both do the same?
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Both, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is not possible, Mr. Stojanovic. One
21 document mentioned with the number of the Karadzic case can't be two
22 documents in our case; this is not possible. And the confusion is -- I
23 think Mr. Traldi was referring to, is you have different numbers
24 mentioned in the attachment to your 92 ter motion and in the Defence
25 exhibit list we received some days ago.
1 So there are two numbers. Please clarify which one is exactly
2 that one the witness speaks about in paragraph 53.
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, 1D02690.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do we then understand, Mr. Stojanovic, that
5 1D02690 is to replace 1D13031?
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And in addition, can -- in addition to that, can
7 you please state the title of the document? Is it the RS MUP CSB
8 Romansko [phoen] Information or is it the SDA Executive Committee?
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that is the
10 document of the Executive Board of the SDA.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is -- it should be 1D02690.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's the one to replace 1D13031. Okay.
13 Then where does 1D02733 fit in in the testimony of this witness?
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] This is a document accompanying
15 the basic document, and it supports and spells out in more concrete terms
16 the communication from the Executive Board of the SDA.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Then it is not an associated exhibit with this
19 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, it is my understanding during the
20 Karadzic case these two documents were joined as one exhibit, as is often
21 the case in these trials, and that that is why they are two documents in
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: I understand that. I understand that practice in
24 this trial.
25 MR. IVETIC: As a matter of fact, with the last witness we had
1 documents that were joined together yesterday that were multiple
2 documents in one exhibit number that were admitted by this Chamber,
3 Your Honours.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But they are --
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could I -- could I suggest -- we are not in
6 combat. When one counsel stands up, could the other sit down.
7 Yes, Judge.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The problem is that you confused the numbers in
9 the list that you have provided the Chamber with, and we just want to
10 know where the numbers appear under which title in which paragraph of the
11 statement; otherwise, we can't admit them as associated exhibits.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] So, Your Honours, in the
13 document that we submitted to you as associated exhibits for the
14 statement of this witness, we said that for paragraph 53 we are going to
15 use these two documents as associated exhibits. According to 65 ter,
16 they have the numbers that we have already referred to.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you saying the SDA archive reports deal with
18 what you would call in paragraph 53 the policy of the SDA?
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. According to
20 the information I have, in the Karadzic case it was one document and we
21 informed you in writing on the 22nd of September.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I would suggest to -- to save time and to clarify
23 the situation that you show both documents by asking the witness in
24 relation to the content of paragraph 53, and then we can admit them as
25 associated exhibits or as separate documents. We don't know how they are
1 uploaded and the problem, again, is the confusion created by the two
2 lists. Therefore --
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. That's
4 what we are going to do.
5 Could we please have 1D2690 in e-court -- 1D02690.
6 Q. Mr. Witness, you have a document before you?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. My question: Have you had an opportunity to see this document
9 earlier on and does this document refer to what you testified about in
10 paragraph 53?
11 A. Yes, that's correct. I've seen this before and it has to do with
12 the training of policemen in other areas. It's a document sent by the
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [No interpretation]
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We didn't receive interpretation.
16 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear the English booth now?
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes.
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have another
19 document in e-court, 1D02733.
20 Q. Mr. Witness, could you please tell the Court what this document
22 A. It says how trainee policemen are to be admitted in the training
23 centre of the MUP of the Republic of Croatia.
24 Q. Does this document say who it is that is sending MUP employees of
25 Bosnia-Herzegovina to be trained in the MUP of the Republic of Croatia?
1 A. SDA headquarters.
2 Q. Can you tell us whether one can see on the basis of this document
3 what the name of candidate is, the candidate who was sent?
4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We no longer hear the
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Witness, the interpreters can't hear you. Could
7 you please try to speak closer to the mike without coming too close. But
8 if you stand away from it, then we don't hear.
9 Can you repeat your question?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can see the first name, it is
11 Mirsad, but the last name is illegible.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Is that a Muslim name?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Where do we find that in the English,
17 Mr. Stojanovic? I see something written in the English handwritten
18 question -- question mark Fadil Polic, and then slash -- forward slash.
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. This name
20 that you have before you is, I think, the third page of the document in
21 B/C/S because now these are several documents sending several different
23 So in B/C/S could we please take a look at this document -- or
24 rather, its third page. I apologise, the second page. The second page.
25 Thank you.
1 Q. Mr. Witness, can you see the name of the candidate that is being
2 sent for training to the MUP of the Republic of Croatia?
3 A. It's so dark. I cannot discern it.
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we zoom in on this darker
5 area where there is a handwritten note.
6 Q. Can you read it now?
7 A. Sadik, roughly, that's the first name; and the last name is
8 illegible again. No, it's Fadil maybe.
9 Q. All right. Thank you.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I -- now, Mr. Stojanovic, obviously this
11 document is more than one page. How many pages is it? Now we're going
12 to tender all these names?
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's right.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: And how many pages is this document?
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this document
16 consists of -- I just need a moment. 40 pages, Your Honour, with
17 different names of persons who are enrolled in the course.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Now paragraph 53 is talking about policy.
19 You now want to give 40 pages of individual recommendations which are
20 repeating the same fact. Would one not be sufficient as a demonstration
21 of that policy?
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think so, Your Honour, if
23 there is no dispute between us that all of these persons are ethnic
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: We will come to that. You can verify that with
1 the opposite counsel.
2 And the other document, 1D02690, was it a one-pager or was it
3 also several pages?
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Just one page, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
6 Mr. Traldi --
7 MR. TRALDI: Ah.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- does this resolve your problems?
9 MR. TRALDI: Yes, no objections to 65 ter 1D02690 and we're happy
10 to speak to the Defence. I admit off the top of my head, I'm unable to
11 speak to the ethnicity of the names.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
13 Is that okay by you?
14 Okay, so we defer the admission of that 02733 until you have
16 MR. TRALDI: That would be my proposal, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you so much.
18 Mr. Registrar, 1D02341 is admitted into evidence. May it please
19 be given an exhibit number.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D733, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
22 And 1D02690 is also admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
24 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D734, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
1 Mr. Stojanovic, I notice it's time for a break. Would that be a
2 convenient time?
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. After the
4 break, I don't think I'll need more than ten minutes or so.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: One observation, Mr. Stojanovic. The last
7 document we now have admitted into evidence was not listed as an
8 associated exhibit in your 92 ter motion. I just want to clarify that.
9 This created the problem.
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] You're right, Your Honour. And
11 that is why on the 22nd of September we submitted a document stating that
12 we would be using this document as well.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: And just to round off this topic, is it correct
14 that then D733 and D734 replace in paragraph 53 of the witness's
15 statement 1D13031?
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
18 Mr. Registrar, to the extent that it affects your department, can
19 you attend to that.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. That will be noted.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
22 Yes, Mr. Traldi.
23 MR. TRALDI: Just for the record, I think 1D13031 is the Karadzic
24 case number which was used --
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
1 MR. TRALDI: -- and 1D02343 is the Mladic case number.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Then it has fallen out of our case now.
3 It's no longer part of our case.
4 Mr. Djuric, we are going to take a short break of 20 minutes and
5 we would like to see you back here in 20 minutes' time. You can follow
6 the usher.
7 [The witness stands down]
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: I see you are on your feet, Mr. Traldi.
9 MR. TRALDI: Yes, Your Honour. I'd mentioned I had one issue to
10 raise in private session, and I wonder if now might be a convenient
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: It will be.
13 May the Chamber please move into private session.
14 [Private session]
11 Pages 27620-27621 redacted. Private session.
17 [Open session]
18 THE REGISTRAR: We are now in open session, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
20 We will take a break of 20 minutes. We'll come back at 25
21 minutes past. Thank you so much.
22 --- Recess taken at 12.05 p.m.
23 --- On resuming at 12.27 p.m.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the witness please be escorted into the
1 Mr. Stojanovic, you said you still have ten minutes?
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, this is the plan.
3 Your Honour, I intend to read the summary and then put just a few short
4 questions to the witness.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thanks.
6 [The witness takes the stand]
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to
9 read this witness's statement's summary.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may do so.
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Witness Mane Djuric holds a
12 master's degree in mechanical engineer. Before the war, he was a
13 republican inspector for fire protection at the Ministry of the Interior
14 of Bosnia and Herzegovina in the security services centre in Tuzla. His
15 office was in the Vlasenica public security station.
16 He knows why the Crisis Staff was established in Vlasenica; he is
17 aware of the reasons and motives. He says that the tasks of the
18 Crisis Staff were to monitor the situation and take measures in order to
19 overcome all the crisis situations in the municipality; however, the
20 Crisis Staff was short-lived due to the dissipation of its membership,
21 and finally a decision was taken to divide the municipality of Vlasenica
22 into three different parts: A Muslim part, a Serbian part, and a
23 separate municipality of Milici.
24 He also speaks about what he knows about the arming of both Serbs
25 and Muslims, about the reasons why Muslims were leaving Vlasenica. He
1 says that the process took place in three different stages and he puts
2 things in a chronological perspective. He says that the main reason for
3 the departure of Serbs and Muslims from Vlasenica was security, fear of
4 revenges and retaliation because of the forcible eviction of Serbs from
5 their houses in other cities.
6 He is aware of all the efforts to disarm people who had illegal
7 weapons. He knows about paramilitary formations which existed in
8 Vlasenica, and he's aware of the situation of the judiciary in Vlasenica
10 As for the Susica facility, he claims that it was originally set
11 up as a reception centre to accommodate all those who needed safe
12 accommodation irrespective of their ethnic affiliation. People stayed
13 there for a very short period of time until the moment a transport was
14 made available to them to take them where they wanted to go. At first
15 the centre was secured by the Territorial Defence, and later by the VRS.
16 People would stay there only a couple of days and then they would leave.
17 He also knows that there were activities aimed at moving Muslims from the
18 Susica reception centre to Bijeljina.
19 And finally, the witness speaks about what he knows about the
20 setting up of a Muslim paramilitary formations back in 1991. Their names
21 were the Patriotic League and the Green Berets. He also speaks about the
22 role of the political leadership in the setting up and training of those
24 This is a short summary of this witness's statement. With your
25 leave, Your Honours, I would like to put a couple of questions to the
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Sir, just something about your CV. When did you become the
5 deputy chief of the public security station in Zvornik?
6 A. In April 1994. I believe that that was sometime around the 27th
7 or the 28th of April.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to call up D732 in
11 Q. It's your statement. I'm interested in paragraph 21 -- 29. In
12 paragraph 29 in the sentence you say that you thought it would be
13 possible to discipline the unit in question, and then you say that
14 Commander Radenko Stanic and you invited the commander of that
15 intervention platoon, Miroslav Kraljevic, and his deputy, Elvis Djuric,
16 to a meeting and that you agreed that they would continue working in the
17 police in a certain way. To your best recollection, when was that? When
18 were those units included into the police in Vlasenica in that way?
19 A. Just by way of introduction, that intervention platoon existed as
20 a unit of the Territorial Defence by establishment; however, on the 12th
21 of May a decision was taken to set up the Army Republika Srpska. Later
22 on there was a general mobilisation proclaimed by the Serbian -- by the
23 Muslim Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina and that was the beginning of
24 1992. A decision was taken that all the units had to be under the
25 command of the Republika Srpska --
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, sorry. Can I interrupt you, Mr. Djuric.
2 You are talking a little too fast. The interpreters can't keep pace with
3 you. Could you slow down, please.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.
5 A decision was taken that all militarily able-bodied men had to
6 be under the command of the Army of Republika Srpska or the
7 Territorial Defence or the MUP of Republika Srpska. That unit was part
8 of the TO. At that moment it did not want to join the Army of Republika
9 Srpska. So the Crisis Staff and the leadership decided to attach that
10 unit to the MUP, i.e., to the public security station, which was a legal
11 institution at the time.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. The question -- let me interrupt you for a moment because we can
14 see that in your written statement. Can you remember the date when that
16 A. That happened sometime between the 10th and the 15th or 16th of
17 June, 1992. They were finally attached to the public security station in
18 a formal way.
19 Q. Thank you. And now let's look at paragraph 35 in your statement.
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] For the record, this is D732
21 again. I believe that I will use the following page in the English
22 version because I'm interested in the very last sentence in paragraph 35
23 and that's on the following English page -- English version. I would
24 kindly ask that the following page be displayed in the English version.
25 Thank you.
1 Q. You say that people were leaving, both Serbs and Muslims, the
2 territory of the municipality of Vlasenica. You speak about the
3 procedure and you end up by saying:
4 "I suppose this was done because of the International Red Cross
5 so that it could be demonstrated that no one left under duress."
6 Could you please tell the Trial Chamber why did you suppose that
7 that was done on account of the International Committee of the Red Cross?
8 A. In the previous period we said that both Serbs and Muslims were
9 leaving; however, the intensity of these departures went up and down
10 depending on the security situation over there in the area and in the
11 surrounding area. There were some periods of time when the departures
12 became more intensive and then it also worked the other way around. As
13 for these departures, the Red Cross was informed so that for these groups
14 of people who were leaving - primarily Muslims going towards Kladanj and
15 Tuzla - proper accommodation should be found for them there and the
16 International Red Cross was informed about that, too.
17 As for constant pressures, namely that somebody is forcing
18 somebody out of Vlasenica, then probably it was the assessment of the
19 Crisis Staff that a procedure should be adopted for those who wished to
20 leave the municipality of Vlasenica, that they should sign a paper
21 stating that their departure was voluntary. That pertained to Muslims.
22 And at that moment for the Serbs that meant that -- I mean, there should
23 be control over military conscripts as to who had left the territory and
24 who had not. So my personal opinion is that this decision of the
25 Crisis Staff is the result of a compromise with the International Red
1 Cross to show that no one was leaving under duress; rather, people were
2 doing that of their own free will.
3 Q. I'm just going to end with a concrete question: From whom did
4 you receive this information that this was done because the Red Cross had
5 asked for that?
6 A. The representatives of the International Red Cross often stopped
7 by the public security station, and they kept raising this question
8 regarding the departure of these citizens. So among others the
9 representatives of the International Red Cross.
10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Djuric. Could you please just speak a bit more
11 slowly when you answer the questions that are put to you by my colleague,
12 the Prosecutor. We need to do that for the record.
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have
14 no further questions at this point.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.
16 Yes, Mr. Traldi.
17 Mr. Djuric, you are now going to be cross-examined by Mr. Traldi.
18 Mr. Traldi is counsel for the Prosecution.
19 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Your Honour. And thanks to
20 Mr. Stojanovic as well.
21 Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi:
22 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
23 A. Good afternoon.
24 Q. Sir, you've been interviewed by the Office of the Prosecutor of
25 this Tribunal twice; correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And you told the truth on those occasions; correct?
3 MR. TRALDI: And could we go into private session.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
5 [Private session]
18 [Open session]
19 THE REGISTRAR: We are now in open session, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
21 Yes, Mr. Traldi.
22 MR. TRALDI:
23 Q. Sir, I'm going to briefly now go through your positions during
24 the relevant period. Before the war, you were a fire inspector under the
25 authority of CSB Tuzla; right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. In April 1992 you were mobilised into the police force of SJB
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. From April to August 1992 you were acting chief of SJB Vlasenica;
7 A. Yes, but intensively from about the 20th of May, 1992.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please
9 be asked to speak into the microphone. Thank you.
10 MR. TRALDI:
11 Q. And, sir, you're being asked just to speak towards the microphone
12 to assist the interpreters and keeping the record clear.
13 We'd agreed that from April to August you'd served as acting
14 chief of SJB. In August 1992 you were formally appointed as chief by
15 Zoran Cvijetic; right?
16 A. Yes, that's correct. In April until the 20th of May it was
17 Rade Bjelanovic who was acting chief, and then he went to the public
18 security station in Milici. From the 20th of May until August, we can
19 say that I was acting chief. And from the 8th of August, 1992, I was
20 appointed by the minister as chief of the public security station.
21 Q. Now, you were appointed by Mr. Cvijetic. He was the head of the
22 CSB Sarajevo; right?
23 A. Right.
24 Q. And SJB Vlasenica was under the authority of the CSB Sarajevo;
1 A. Yes, from April it was under CSB Sarajevo and up until then, that
2 is to say while the MUP of the former BH existed, it was within the CSB
4 Q. So from April it was under the CSB Sarajevo as part of the
5 Republika Srpska MUP; right?
6 A. That's right. The MUP of the Serb Republic of Bosnia and
7 Herzegovina. That's what it was called at the time.
8 Q. That's right. It would have become the Republika Srpska MUP
9 later in 1992; right?
10 A. Later, yes.
11 Q. Now approximately every month you yourself would attend
12 collegiums held by Mr. Cvijetic; right? The man who appointed you.
13 A. Well, it can be put that way. That is to say, collegium meetings
14 were held once a month, but if necessary even more frequently than that.
15 Q. And those were held sometimes in the CSB headquarters in
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And sometimes at the Hotel Kosuta in Pale?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Can you briefly describe the purpose of such meetings?
21 A. The purpose of these meetings - if we can call them the collegium
22 of the chief of CSB - was to provide information about the situation in
23 areas of different public security stations, another thing that was very
24 important there. What was discussed was the constitution and the mode of
25 functioning of these stations because the newly created situation was
1 such, especially where SJB Vlasenica was, that was beforehand within the
2 CSB of Tuzla and now it became part of the CSB Sarajevo. It had to do
3 with the way in which communication and co-ordination, everything else,
4 was to be established, all other links within that area.
5 Q. And Mr. Cvijetic would report on these meetings, these
6 collegiums, and what he had heard there to Minister Stanisic; right?
7 A. At any rate, it was his duty to convey information to the
8 minister -- or rather, the minister's office.
9 Q. His immediate superior, was that Minister Stanisic or
10 Under-Secretary Cedo Kljaic?
11 A. Mico Stanisic.
12 Q. Now in November 1993 while you were SJB chief, you were proposed
13 for a decoration by Mr. Cvijetic; right?
14 A. Yes.
15 MR. TRALDI: Can the Prosecution have 65 ter 31514.
16 Q. Now, this is a document labelled "Submission of Proposals for
17 Decoration," coming from Mr. Cvijetic and dated the 10th of November,
18 1993. He was still your direct superior at this time; correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 MR. TRALDI: If we could turn to page 2 in both the English and
22 Q. We'll see your name at point 5.
23 MR. TRALDI: And then if we could turn to page 5 in the English
24 and 4 in the B/C/S.
25 Q. We see you're being proposed for a decoration of the second rank
1 and a description of the reasons. And it says here - I'm looking at the
2 second sentence:
3 "Immediately after war operations began, he was named and
4 appointed Vlasenica SJB chief, at which time he undertook practical steps
5 in establishment and organisation - work in the SJB. He timely carried
6 out organisational preparations for Vlasenica SJB to be put into function
7 for the Serb people's liberation."
8 Those are activities you'd reported to Mr. Cvijetic through the
9 line of work that you had carried out; right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. In your view, when did war operations begin in Vlasenica
13 A. We can say the following: As for some date, the 21st of April,
14 1992, it meant the realisation of many decisions reached by the
15 Crisis Staff; inter alia, there was a decision on disarming the reserve
16 force and the active duty policemen, and also taking away illegal
17 weapons, the decision on establishing the TO, the decision on declaring
18 an imminent threat of war, and perhaps some other decisions. I cannot
19 remember exactly. So some period where more active efforts were being
20 made in organising the defence, that would be the 21st of April, 1992.
21 Q. And you received two decorations in November 1993; right? The
22 order of Milos Obilic was one of them?
23 A. Yes.
24 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I'd tender this document.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No objection, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
2 number, Mr. Registrar.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P6869, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
5 MR. TRALDI:
6 Q. You mentioned during direct examination that on 27 April 1994
7 you'd become deputy chief of the new securities services centre in
8 Zvornik. This was effectively a promotion; right?
9 A. Viewed in terms of hierarchy and the establishment of the
10 Ministry of the Interior, yes, it was a promotion.
11 Q. I'm going to turn now to the beginning of the conflict.
12 MR. TRALDI: And if we could have 65 ter 02559G.
13 Q. Now, while it comes up, before the war Vlasenica was a
14 multiethnic municipality; right?
15 A. Yes, it was mainly Serb population, Muslim population, and a
16 small percentage of Croats.
17 Q. Now, you say in your statement that Vlasenica municipality was
18 about evenly divided between Serbs and Muslims before the war?
19 MR. TRALDI: If we could see page 2 of this document in the B/C/S
20 only. This is an excerpt from the census.
21 Q. And we see Vlasenica in line 1.
22 MR. TRALDI: We need to turn to page 3 now, still looking at the
23 first line.
24 Q. And looking on the left side, we see that as of 1991 Vlasenica
25 had 33.942 people of whom 18.727 were Muslims, several thousand more than
1 Serbs. So Vlasenica municipality had a Muslim majority before the war;
3 A. [No interpretation]
4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We cannot hear the
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: The interpreters couldn't hear you, sir. Could
7 you please repeat your answer and try to speak into the microphone.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, according to this document the
9 number of Muslims is higher.
10 MR. TRALDI: And, Your Honours, I'd tender this document, 02559G.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted into evidence.
12 May it please be given an exhibit number, Mr. Registrar.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P6870, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
15 MR. TRALDI:
16 Q. Sir, between 1985 and the multiparty elections, ethnic relations
17 in Vlasenica had been good; right?
18 A. Yes, for the most part interethnic relations were good because
19 this was a community that had a rather good economic status. There were
20 quite a few profitable companies there, people were working, and - how do
21 I put it? - no one bothered anyone else.
22 Q. The largest company in the municipality would have been
23 Boksit Milici; right?
24 A. Yes, inter alia, there were other companies that were profitable
1 Q. Now after the elections in 1990, relations between the different
2 ethnic communities became polarised; right?
3 A. Yes, this polarisation started happening more intensively when
4 the establishment of political parties started, primarily the SDA. Later
5 on the SDS was formed and then others, but these two were dominant in the
7 Q. Turning to the police station, after the multiparty elections it
8 was the political parties, as you say in your statement I think, that
9 appointed the professional staff in SJB Vlasenica. Now, you say in
10 paragraph 4 that the person appointed chief after the elections was a
11 Serb named Rade Bjelanovic. Mr. Bjelanovic was proposed by the SDS;
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. His previous job had been at Boksit Milici and he had no law
15 enforcement experience; right?
16 A. That's right.
17 MR. TRALDI: And can we go into private session, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
19 MR. TRALDI:
20 Q. Sir, you meant --
21 [Private session]
11 Pages 27637-27648 redacted. Private session.
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: We are now in open session, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much, Mr. Registrar.
13 Mr. Djuric, we are at that time when we must take a break. We
14 will -- can you please come back in 20 minutes. You may follow the
16 [The witness stands down]
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: We take a break and come back at ten to. Court
19 --- Recess taken at 1.29 p.m.
20 --- On resuming at 1.52 p.m.
21 [The witness takes the stand]
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Traldi.
23 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Q. Mr. Djuric, I want to turn now to the Vlasenica SJB, and I'll
25 start with some specific questions about the effect of the take-over of
1 Vlasenica municipality on the SJB. Now, when the take-over happened, the
2 non-Serb police officers at the Vlasenica SJB stopped working there;
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. Now, the Vlasenica Crisis Staff was formed on the 4th of April
6 1992. The SJB commander would attend meetings of that Crisis Staff;
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And the SJB would inform the civilian authorities of the
10 municipality, either the Crisis Staff or War Presidency, about its work;
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Formal reporting, however, went through the RS MUP's line of
14 work; right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now, an individual report would be sent through the chain of
17 command, wouldn't it?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And what that means is if you wanted to send information to the
20 minister of the interior while you were chief of police, you would send
21 it through the CSB?
22 A. Yes, that was the way of communication.
23 Q. And as to the mechanics of that communication, beginning in June
24 1992 you had radio and teleprinter communication with CSB Sarajevo;
1 A. Yes, communication had already been established. All relay
2 station faced Tuzla and so on and so forth. So the services managed to
3 establish a minimum of communication.
4 Q. And once the teleprinter was up and running, you'd report on a
5 daily basis to the CSB; right?
6 A. Yes, dispatches could be drafted and dispatched.
7 Q. And generally even before that teleprinter was working, the CSB
8 was generally aware of what was going on at the Vlasenica SJB; right?
9 A. Yes, but information never travelled fast. Before that it was
10 sent by courier, and then new means were established so the information
11 travelled faster by teleprinter or by phone.
12 Q. I want to turn now to the special unit of the SJB. Now, you say
13 in paragraph 29 of your statement that half of that special unit would be
14 at the police station and the other half would be on leave and that they
15 would work with the police at check-points and participate with the army
16 in combat activities as needed. Is that all correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, they would receive their tasks at the police station; right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, they were paid by the MUP and actually you signed the
21 payrolls; right?
22 A. Yes, they were on payroll at the time.
23 Q. And you signed those payrolls?
24 A. Yes, for the most part.
25 MR. TRALDI: Now, could we have 65 ter 16972.
1 Q. This is a document dated the 10th of August, 1992, regarding
2 disbanding of the special unit in the SJB. And you report:
3 "Soon after the war started in the area of Vlasenica municipality
4 (21 April 1992), a special purpose platoon was formed in the Vlasenica
5 SJB in order to realise goals, and on the basis of agreement and
6 suggestions of the Birac SAO government."
7 That's the truth, what you're reporting to Mr. Cvijetic and the
8 CSB here; right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Now, in the second paragraph here you say part of the unit
11 became -- by the 10th of August and pursuant to this order by the
12 minister of the interior at the end of July, part of it became a
13 reserving contingent, part was transferred into the military police of
14 the main command at Crna Rijeka, and part was given to the Serbian army.
15 Now, "the Serbian army" means the VRS; right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And the main command in Crna Rijeka, that's the Main Staff of the
18 VRS; right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, the Chamber has received evidence that Dragan Nikolic was
21 one of the members of this unit. Was he given to the VRS at this point
22 or did he become a reserve policeman?
23 A. He first became a member of the TO and then the VRS. He did not
24 stay long at the police station.
25 Q. And just to be clear, you're aware that Mr. Nikolic pled guilty
1 to certain crimes committed at Susica camp at this Tribunal; right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now, in your statement when you're discussing what was done with
4 this special unit, you say some were sent to the army, some to
5 Crna Rijeka, some to take a police course, and you also say:
6 "... except for those who committed offences."
7 Now, you don't say in this report to Mr. Cvijetic that any of the
8 members of the unit were excepted from further service because they had
9 committed further criminal offences, do you?
10 A. Yes, it is not mentioned in here; however, during the process to
11 disband the unit, from the police station and from this unit, we sent
12 away some 68 policemen for crimes and serious violation of work duties.
13 Q. Now, you'd sent a separate report about that a few days earlier
14 to the Romanija Birac CSB; right? I can just --
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. And when I say "earlier," I mean a few days before this report;
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. When you say you sent people away for crimes, at that time what
20 the police would do if a policeman was believed to have committed a crime
21 was provide him to serve in the VRS; right?
22 A. For the most part the rule was to remove such a person from our
23 ranks and to file a criminal report against those individuals who had
24 committed crimes, and we would hand them over to the VRS and then the VRS
25 would go on to engage them in their units.
1 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I tender this document.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
4 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P6876, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
6 MR. TRALDI: Could we go into private session.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
8 [Private session]
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thanks.
15 Yes, Mr. Traldi.
16 MR. TRALDI:
17 Q. Sir, you've previously reviewed the Vlasenica crime register for
18 1992; right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, a majority of the cases that the Vlasenica SJB dealt with
21 between April and July 1992 were cases involving possession of illegal
22 weapons; right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now, you know from your previous review of the crime register
25 that the people recorded there as having been arrested for illegal
1 possession of weapons were all Muslims; right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And when -- and when you looked -- when you did your -- when you
4 did your review -- I'm afraid both of my microphones have stopped
6 THE INTERPRETER: No, they haven't. You're fine.
7 MR. TRALDI: Am I? Okay.
8 Q. When you did your review of the log-book, you didn't see any
9 registered reports against Serbs for crimes committed against non-Serbs;
11 A. I am not aware of the structure of crimes, but there was a total
12 of 125 crimes. I suppose that criminal reports were filed for at least
13 some of those crimes.
14 Q. Well, I'm asking specifically of reports for crimes against
15 non-Serbs committed by Serbs, and you didn't see any registered reports
16 regarding such crimes, did you?
17 A. Correct. There was just one murder, a Serb killed another Serb
18 and a criminal report was filed for that.
19 Q. When you say there was just one, you refer to a Serb killing
20 another Serb, were all 124 -- all of the other 124 reports against
22 A. No. I don't have the structure of those 128 crimes before, but
23 those were various crimes, thefts, aggravated thefts, all sorts of
24 violations of the law.
25 MR. TRALDI: Well, could we have 65 ter 31509 --
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just before we do that, can I get back.
2 You said no to the question whether all the other 124 reports
3 were against Muslims. And then you said you don't have the structure of
4 those crimes. Do we have to understand that in fact you do not know
5 whether all 124 were Muslims?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know exactly. I think that
7 that was not --
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
9 MR. TRALDI: Could we have 65 ter 31509, page 241.
10 Q. And this will be part of one of the interviews that you had with
11 the Tribunal as a suspect. So starting at the beginning of the page --
12 it's a very long interview so I'm afraid that we have we have only have
13 it in English. I'll begin reading at line 13.
14 "Let me ask you this: Did you file any criminal reports
15 regarding crimes committed by Serbs against non-Serbs during this
16 time-period? And you looked at the log-book, so perhaps that refreshed
17 your memory. Did you file any crimes -- or criminal reports against
19 And you responded:
20 "I think I didn't see any registered reports."
21 Now, does that refresh your recollection as to whether there were
22 any registered reports in the log-book in Vlasenica in 1992 for crimes
23 committed by Serbs against non-Serbs?
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I am afraid that there is
2 ambiguity. What is it that the Prosecutor is asking when he says
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before you ask that question, can you tell us what
5 is the -- [Microphone not activated].
6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge, please.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: I beg your pardon.
8 Before you ask that question, can you tell us what is the
9 ambiguity that you are objecting to?
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to ask
11 that you first see with the witness whether he speaks the English
12 language, and then if he does not could he please be asked to take off
13 his headphones.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Djuric, do you speak English at all? I saw
15 you looking at the screen earlier.
16 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We cannot hear the
17 witness. There is a lot background noise from different microphones.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you answer my question? The interpreters
19 didn't hear you, Mr. Djuric.
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it won't work
21 because my English is not good enough for me to address you in English,
22 so I will just try to be clear enough. I do apologise.
23 The question is vague because I think that the witness should be
24 asked about the registers that are actually being referred to, where
25 perpetrators of criminal acts are registered. There are different
1 registers in the nomenclature in Bosnia-Herzegovina at that time.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, as I understood the questions by the
3 Prosecutor, there was no distinction made of different registers. The
4 question was you reviewed your registers? Yes. You did not see any
5 crimes committed by Serbs against non-Serbs - did not see - and in this
6 interview he says yes he did not see. And he didn't ask for the
8 MR. TRALDI: If it's the term "registered reports" that
9 Mr. Stojanovic is interested in, I can ask the witness to explain the
10 significance of that. Is that right?
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Traldi is making an offer which the Chamber
12 will allow him to do.
13 MR. TRALDI:
14 Q. Sir, can you explain the significance of a registered report in
15 the process of initiating and bringing criminal proceedings in SJB
16 Vlasenica in 1992?
17 A. Here specifically, as far as I understand things, this is the
18 situation: There is an internal book, the K registered in the crime
19 prevention service, and then there is also a log-book at the prosecutor's
20 office. And now the question is whether, as far as these records are
21 concerned, the ones that you are dealing with, is it the records of the
22 prosecutor's office or the public security station. Just that.
23 Q. And so when you said you didn't see any registered reports in the
24 log-book you reviewed, which book would registered reports refer to?
25 A. As far as I can remember, I think that what was shown to me was
1 the prosecutor's office log-book, because all the crimes registered at
2 the police station do not have to be included in the prosecutor's office
3 book, so part of it is in the -- I mean, rather the number does not have
4 to be the same of the crimes registered at the public security station
5 and the crimes registered at the prosecutor's office. Usually there is
6 less at the prosecutor's office.
7 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I see the time. I'd ask for two or
8 three more questions on this topic just to close it for continuity.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, I also had some questions. Okay. You may
11 MR. TRALDI:
12 Q. At what stage -- well, let me actually try to make this very
13 short. A person can't be convicted or judicially punished for a crime
14 without the crime first having being registered in the prosecutor's
15 log-book; right?
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did you say a person "can" or "can't," Mr. Traldi?
17 MR. TRALDI: I said a person who can't, but let me make sure the
18 witness understood.
19 Q. It is not possible for a person to be convicted or punished
20 without the crime being in the prosecutor's log-book?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. So regardless of what investigations might have been done at the
23 investigative stage by the police, it's correct that if the prosecutor's
24 log-book contains no reports of crimes by Serbs against non-Serbs, no one
25 was convicted or judicially punished for such a crime; right?
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. And it's correct that when you reviewed that log-book, you saw no
3 such reports; right?
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Was that the prosecutor's log-book?
5 MR. TRALDI: Yes.
6 Q. Sorry, sir. Your answer wasn't recorded. It's correct that when
7 you reviewed that log-book you saw no reports of crimes by Serbs against
8 non-Serbs; right?
9 A. That's right. If that's what I said then, then I think that's
10 the way it is.
11 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, I think you also had a couple of
12 questions. That completes mine for the moment.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: You have disposed of them.
14 MR. TRALDI: May I have just one final one for the day.
15 Q. Sir, you said a moment ago that you would file criminal reports
16 against police officers who were believed to have committed crimes.
17 Clearly no police officers were convicted in Vlasenica for crimes against
18 non-Serbs in 1992; right?
19 A. That's right.
20 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Traldi.
22 Sir, we've come to the end of the day. We're going to break
23 until tomorrow and we would like to see you tomorrow -- I beg your
24 pardon, until Monday. Unfortunately, you still have to be re-examined by
25 the Defence, so we'll see you on Monday morning at 9.30 in the morning.
1 Is that right? Do you understand that?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now before you go, I just want to warn you that
4 you may not speak or communicate with anybody whose -- whichever person
5 it might be in connection with the testimony that you gave today or the
6 testimony you still have to give on Monday, okay? Neither by writing or
7 verbally. Is that understood?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Traldi, I take it you haven't concluded your
11 cross-examination yet?
12 MR. TRALDI: I -- that was all I was going to say and to hope
13 that the Chamber's interpretation that I was done for the moment as
14 possibly meaning I was done was not a hopeful interpretation.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: The Chamber unreservedly withdraws that hopeful
16 interpretation. Thank you so much.
17 Okay. You'll still be cross-examined on Monday when we come
18 back. You may follow the usher.
19 [The witness stands down]
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: We stand adjourned until Monday, the 3rd of
21 November, at 9.30 in the morning in this very courtroom. Court adjourned.
22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.23 p.m.,
23 to be reconvened on Monday, the 3rd day of
24 November, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.