1 Thursday, 13 November 2014
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 I see that everyone found its way to Courtroom I, which was
8 available again today.
9 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, and good morning, Your Honours.
11 This is case IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
13 Is the -- yes, good morning, Ms. Bibles. Any matter to raise?
14 MS. BIBLES: Yes, Your Honour. Good mornings, Your Honours.
15 I would like to introduce Mr. Alan Tieger who I don't believe
16 actually needs much introduction but you will be seeing him in this case
17 so I do introduce him in the courtroom to this case.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I cannot say that his face is totally
19 unfamiliar to this Chamber. Welcome in this courtroom again, Mr. Tieger.
20 Is the Defence ready to call its next witness.
21 MR. LUKIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Yes, we are. We are
22 calling Mr. Pereula Spiro.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, could the witness be escorted into the
25 Meanwhile, I use the time to raise the following matter.
1 That is associated exhibits with witness Tomislav Savkic. During
2 the testimony of that witness, document D705 was MFI'd, pending an
3 agreement between the parties concerning the original text and
4 translation, and the Chamber wonders whether the parties have agreed on
5 this matter and, if so, what the agreement was.
6 But perhaps you -- yes, Mr. --
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, we're having a
8 meeting with the Prosecution today, and I think that we will then resolve
9 this matter.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll hear from the parties after that meeting.
11 [The witness entered court]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Pereula. Before you give
13 evidence, the Rules require --
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
15 JUDGE ORIE: -- that you make a solemn declaration. The text is
16 now handed out to you.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
18 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
19 WITNESS: SPIRO PEREULA
20 [Witness answered through interpreter]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Pereula. Please be seated. You will
22 be first examined by Mr. Lukic. You find Mr. Lukic to your left.
23 Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Examination by Mr. Lukic:
1 Q. Mr. Pereula, good morning.
2 A. Good morning.
3 Q. For the transcript, will you please slowly tell us your first and
4 last name.
5 A. My name is Spiro Pereula, born on the 10th of November, 1941.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MR. LUKIC: Can we have on our screens 1D1747, please.
8 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Pereula, did you give a statement to the
9 Mladic Defence team on two occasions?
10 A. Yes, I did.
11 Q. We're now looking at a document signed --
12 A. On the 17th, I think.
13 Q. The 15th of July, 2014. But I see that -- on the statement, the
14 date of the interview is recorded as being the 5th of March, 2014. Did
15 you speak with General Mladic's Defence at that time?
16 A. No, I did not. From the 5th to the 17th.
17 Q. The 5th.
18 A. Yes, yes.
19 Q. And do you recognise the signature on the screen, on the page
20 that you are looking at?
21 A. Yes, that is my signature.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please look at the last
24 Q. Do you recognise your signature on this page?
25 A. Yes, I do.
1 Q. And who wrote the date at the bottom of the page?
2 A. I did.
3 Q. And is what you told us correctly recorded in this statement?
4 A. Yes. There is one correction, though.
5 Q. Tell us what that is.
6 A. It's on the first page.
7 MR. LUKIC: Can we have the second page of this document.
8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters are not able to hear the
10 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, if you are -- could you please speak into
11 the microphone.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. The letters are very
13 tiny and so I cannot read it.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Please tell us what you're looking for.
16 A. Well, what we agreed on, as far as I know, that -- to erase that
17 date when I was in the hospital. That's all. I don't know what page
18 that's on.
19 Q. [In English] I lost it now too.
20 MR. LUKIC: We need page 4 and paragraph 12.
21 Q. [Interpretation] We notified about this, this morning.
22 Mr. Pereula, can you see it?
23 A. Yes, I see it.
24 THE INTERPRETER: We cannot find the part that the witness is
25 reading from; interpreter's note.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you were reading from the statement. The
2 interpreters were unable to follow you. Apparently you said something
3 about you being hospitalised and what you agreed that should be taken
4 out. What should be taken out?
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Just read the part that needs to be deleted.
7 A. "Because I was at the military hospital in Sarajevo for
9 This is something that needs to be erased.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Because it's not true?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's true but it wasn't until the
12 7th. It was until the 3rd. Based on the text, you could conclude that I
13 was in the hospital until the 7th, but actually I was in the hospital
14 until the 3rd of April.
15 JUDGE ORIE: In Belgrade. And then you returned -- Sarajevo.
16 Yes, yes, I apologise.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was not in Belgrade. I was in
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, sorry, that was my mistake.
20 Mr. Lukic.
21 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
22 Q. [Interpretation] Other than this correction, it's everything else
23 that was said?
24 A. Yes, everything else is accurate and I stand by it.
25 Q. If I were to put the same questions to you today, would you give
1 the same answers, in principle?
2 A. Yes, I would.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at 1D1747A, please.
4 Q. Can you see the document in front of you, on the right side of
5 the screen?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you recognise the signature?
8 A. I do.
9 Q. Whose signature is that?
10 A. It's mine.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please look at the last page.
12 Q. And do you see a signature on the last page of the document?
13 A. Yes, I do.
14 Q. Whose signature is that?
15 A. It's my signature.
16 Q. Is this your statement and is everything recorded accurately, the
17 way you said it?
18 A. Yes, that is so.
19 Q. And is what you said in the statement truthful?
20 A. Yes, it is.
21 Q. And if you were to be asked the same questions as those, would
22 you give the same answers, in principle?
23 A. Yes, I would.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We would like to tender these two
25 statement, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
2 MR. WEBER: Good morning, Your Honours. No objections.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I have one question to the witness.
4 When you were asked whether you gave that statement on the 5th of
5 March, you said no, no, no. And then you said the 5th to the 17th.
6 MR. LUKIC: 17th, yeah.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Was that March of this year?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: And then you signed it -- well, let's say, in July?
10 I'm asking you.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I signed it in July and the
12 interview was also conducted then. Later I got some information that I
13 added, although there isn't that much difference between the first and
14 the second.
15 JUDGE ORIE: I'm a bit confused. You were interviewed in March?
16 During --
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. And I signed the statement on
18 the 17th -- no, the 15th of July.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's clear to me, yes. But when you talked
20 about the second statement, what did you refer to?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ah, I didn't understand you. The
22 second statement was a supplemental one because I got some new
23 information. It talks about more details about the torture of Serbs in
24 the Sunce prison in Dobrinja in Sarajevo. And it says in the statement
25 that Serbs were tortured in that prison, my brother was there, and so on
1 and so forth. And the statement was given to the radio television of
2 Republika Srpska, and this is why I did later.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And that was therefore the day after you had
4 signed the first statement, you were then --
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, a couple of days -- a couple of days after that.
7 Thank you.
8 Mr. Registrar.
9 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter number 1D1747 will be Exhibit D779.
10 And 65 ter number 1D1747A will be Exhibit D780, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: D779 and D780 are admitted into evidence.
12 Mr. Lukic, please proceed.
13 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I would just briefly discuss
14 the only associated exhibit. And I spoke with Mr. Weber this morning.
15 We want to make clear on the record that with this associated exhibit,
16 which is video with the transcript, we will rely only on the words
17 uttered by the Mr. Midhat Brica, not on the words uttered by presenters,
18 male or female presenter.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MR. WEBER: With that understanding, the Prosecution has no
22 JUDGE ORIE: Then you want to tender it as an associated exhibit
24 MR. LUKIC: We would tender it, then I would not have any
25 questions for this witness. I would just read his statement summary.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's fine. Although usually with recordings
2 and videos, the Chamber would -- might like -- might want to have a look
3 at it as well so as to see whether there are any further questions.
4 Are you dealing with it Mr. Weber in any --
5 MR. LUKIC: Then if Mr. Weber is not --
6 JUDGE ORIE: No, not.
7 MR. LUKIC: -- dealing with it, I can play it.
8 JUDGE ORIE: How long is it?
9 MR. LUKIC: Five minutes.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Five minutes.
11 MR. LUKIC: It has to be played twice probably.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, is there a transcript? Because the
14 Chamber -- whether we really want to look at it may also depend on the
16 MR. LUKIC: There is a transcript. We can see it on our screens.
17 It's 1D03030.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then we'll read the transcript during the
19 first break and see whether it's of any use to watch the video at all or
20 whether we are fully informed by having read the transcript. Yes.
21 Then --
22 MR. LUKIC: I would just --
23 JUDGE ORIE: -- if you have any further questions. If you want
24 to read the summary, then you have an opportunity to do so.
25 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 As a professional soldier, Mr. Pereula performed duties at the
2 Territorial Defence Staff of BiH since 1977. The war found him on the
3 position of assistant to the chief of security organ at the
4 Territorial Defence Staff of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. He
5 witnessed the escalation of ethnic tensions as early as after the first
6 multi-party elections. Fearing that the weapons and equipment might come
7 in the hands of extremists from all three peoples, the commander of the
8 Republic Territorial Defence Staff then ordered increased measures of
9 securing the warehouses, while part of the materiel was moved to the JNA
11 He is familiar with the fact that the then-Colonel Jovan Divjak,
12 who later became a general of the Muslim forces, issued weapons to the B
13 and H MUP and to the Kiseljak and Kresevo Territorial Defence without
14 knowledge and approval of the commander of the Republic Territorial
15 Defence Staff.
16 He will describe how the then-Colonel Hasan Efendic took over the
17 duty of commander of the Territorial Defence Staff of B and H on
18 7 April 1992 and completely divided the staff by ethnic lines.
19 Mr. Pereula then moved to the 2nd Military District Command, and
20 on 19th April he went to Pale and took part in the establishing of the
21 Serb Territorial Defence, while the Muslims had already established their
22 Army of the Republic of B and H.
23 When the VRS was established, he came to the Main Staff of the
24 VRS as a clerk at the sector for intelligence and security affairs, and
25 in late 1993 he was moved to the Ministry of Defence of Republika Srpska.
1 He remained on that position throughout the war.
2 He will testify about General Mladic as a person and as a
3 soldier. Also, he will describe the way of communication with the VRS
4 Main Staff by way of dispatches.
5 Because he lived in Sarajevo with his family before the war,
6 Mr. Pereula will present his observations about the situation in Sarajevo
7 following the multi-party elections. He will testify about kidnapping
8 and monstrous torching of his brother by the Muslims at the camp for
9 Serbs located in the basement of the Sunce cafe at Dobrinja.
10 That was short statement summary and we do not have questions for
11 this witness at this moment. Thank you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
13 Mr. Pereula, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Weber. I'll
14 find Mr. Weber to your right. Mr. Weber is counsel for the Prosecution.
15 Mr. Lukic has read a summary of your statement and has no further
16 questions, but that means that the Judges have read your statement so
17 they are aware of what your evidence is up till this moment.
18 Mr. Weber, please proceed.
19 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honours.
20 Cross-examination by Mr. Weber:
21 Q. Good morning, Mr. Pereula.
22 A. Good morning.
23 Q. Sir, today I'd like to start off by discussing the securing of
24 weapons before the war. This something you discuss in paragraphs 5 and 6
25 of your 15 July 2014 statement. In paragraph 5 of your statement, you
2 "After the multi-party elections of 1990, and especially during
3 1991, the interethnic tensions increased at the TO Staff as well."
4 For clarity, when you refer to the multi-party elections, is it
5 correct that you are talking about the multi-party elections held on 18
6 November 1990?
7 A. I'm not talking about the multi-party elections. I'm talking
8 about the consequences of the multi-party elections as they reflected on
9 members of the Territorial Defence.
10 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to come
11 closer to the microphone.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please come closer to the microphone when
14 Could the usher assist.
15 MR. WEBER:
16 Q. Sir, we'll come to that in a second. But I just want to know
17 when you are referring to the multi-party elections, you were referring
18 to the elections held on 18 November 1990; is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P3083.
21 Q. And, sir, I understand that it's your evidence that your view is
22 that as a consequence of these elections, there was certain actions taken
23 to secure the weaponry. I'd like to look at some documentation and then
24 I'll come back to that.
25 This is a 14 May 1990 SSNO order numbered 19-1 from Blagoje Adzic
1 concerning the safekeeping -- sir can you see it? It's related to the
2 safekeeping of weapons and ammunition of the TO.
3 MR. WEBER: And, Your Honours, maybe to assist the witness --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, could we --
5 MR. WEBER: -- if we could just get the B/C/S enlarged for the
6 witness on the screen.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And could the usher --
8 JUDGE ORIE: And could the usher assist on a constant basis that
9 the microphone is always situated in such a way. And could we have
10 enlarged this portion because it's not easy to read it.
11 Any specific part, Mr. Weber, you want to?
12 MR. WEBER: I was just coming to that, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 MR. WEBER:
15 Q. According to item 1, General Adzic orders the various military
16 commands together with the TO Staffs of the republics and provinces to
17 "take other storage and safekeeping of the complete stock of the TO
18 weapons and ammunition in the JNA supply dumps and depots." Sir, before
19 I ask my question, do you see that portion?
20 A. I do.
21 Q. Were you aware of this order?
22 A. I did not know about it. This something that only senior-ranking
23 officers could have known about, such as the commander of the
24 Republican Staff of the TO, and then he was the one who would proceed to
25 issue specific orders to us.
1 Q. Is it correct that TO weapons and ammunition were relocated to
2 JNA facilities before 14 June 1990?
3 A. I could not say anything specific, no. I mean, this was written
4 up -- well, what I should say first is that the ammunition and weapons of
5 the Territorial Defence were partly in our depots that were not of the
6 JNA, and then part of them were in JNA depots. After this escalation, a
7 conclusion was reached; namely, that our warehouses were not safe. And
8 an order was issued: Wherever there are JNA depots nearby and of the
9 Territorial Defence, the weapons should be transferred there. For
10 example, in Kiseljak, There was a JNA depot and --
11 Q. Sir, we have your statement. There is no need to repeat it. I
12 appreciate what your statement says.
13 My question was were you aware specifically about the relocation
14 of TO weaponries into JNA facilities. I'll broaden it a little bit more.
15 Were you aware of any relocation prior to the multi-party elections in
16 November 1990?
17 A. No, no.
18 Q. Okay.
19 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 02960 for
20 the witness.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just before we do that, maybe it's important to
22 record on the transcript that date of this order is the 14th of May,
24 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Q. Mr. Pereula, this is a 13 September 1990 Socialist Republic of
1 BiH Republican Territorial Defence Staff report from commander
2 Milos Bajcetic. It's related to the better protection of the armaments
3 and ammunition of the TO of the SRBiH. I'd like to direct your attention
4 before I ask some questions to the first part. At the beginning of the
5 report, Commander Bajcetic refers to the 14 May 1990 order number 19-1
6 from Blagoje Adzic, which we just saw.
7 In the second paragraph, the report states:
8 "The relocation of the TO SRBiH armaments and ammunition was
9 carried out between 18 May and 23 May 1990 with the exception of the
10 region of Bihac and Banja Luka where it was completed on 13 June 1990."
11 Do you see these portions of the report?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Sir, based on this information, it appears that there was quite
14 significant steps taken to relocate the weapons. As an official in the
15 Security Administration, how is it that you were not aware of this?
16 A. Yes, it's possible. Because links with the commander of the
17 Territorial Defence -- or rather, it was my commander, Nikola Andjelic,
18 who was the person through who I communicated or they were the ones who
19 communicated with the main command. And then at that meeting these
20 questions were resolved. At the level of Bosnia-Herzegovina, we had
21 District Staffs of the Territorial Defence and there was a security organ
22 in every District Staff, and I was not involved directly to go there and
23 do that. That was done by the security organs in that area and other
24 organs who were needed in order to have this carried out. I just knew
25 that weapons and ammunition needed to be placed there where they would
1 have proper security. In these concrete cases it was not my task and I
2 didn't do that, and it's possible I didn't -- well, when the situation
3 got worse - that's 1991 - and when Yugoslavia was broken up and so on,
4 then I was more involved in the protection of facilities in the area of
6 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, this is a very long answer, but I
7 understand the issue to be that in your statement, you say that it
8 happened after the multi-party elections, whereas the document shown to
9 you suggests that it happened well before that date.
10 So apart from your explanations --
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I'm saying, I am telling you
12 about when I found about this problem about this case. I'm speaking
13 about myself.
14 JUDGE ORIE: No, in your statement you are telling us what
15 happened. You do not say, I learned about this at that point in time.
16 No. You say this happened after the multi-party elections, whereas the
17 document suggests, and it seems that you do not disagree necessarily with
18 that, that it happened well before the multi-party elections. That's the
19 issue apparently.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I'm not denying that. But
21 what I am saying is when I found out about this, and this document shows
22 that this happened in 1990, that the order arrived. But I mean, at that
23 time I did not know about that --
24 JUDGE ORIE: That's all fine and we now understand it, but that's
25 not what your statement sayings. Your statement doesn't say I learned
1 about this at that point in time. The statement says it happened then.
2 And that is therefore, if I understand you well, unreliable because
3 it's -- relates to the time you learned about it which is different from
4 the time when it happened.
5 Let's proceed.
6 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, the Prosecution would tender 65 ter 2960
7 into evidence.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
9 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P6911, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
11 MR. WEBER:
12 Q. Mr. Pereula, I want to go forward to the spring of 1992. In
13 paragraph 9 of your 15 July 2014 statement, you state:
14 "At the end of March and the beginning of April, the whole city
15 was under barricades."
16 Is it correct that the JNA 2nd Military District had been
17 distributing weapons to Territorial Defence Staffs in the area of
18 Sarajevo prior to the end of March 1992?
19 A. I don't know about that.
20 Q. Well, I'd like to look at something then specific.
21 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 18369 for
22 the witness.
23 Q. Sir, this is a 2 March 1992 order from Colonel General Kukanjac
24 of the 2nd Military District. According to this document, Kukanjac
25 instructs subordinate commands to issue 250 7.62-millimetre automatic
1 rifles to the Novo Sarajevo TO Staff. How is it that you were not aware
2 of this in your position as a member of the Territorial Defence Staff of
3 the republican TO?
4 A. Well, I did not belong to the command of the 2nd Military
5 District. That did not go through the Republican Staff or Territorial
6 Defence. The Territorial Defence was most certainly not aware of that.
7 It went down the chain to the subordinated commands.
8 Q. I'm a bit at loss for a portion of your answer there, since it
9 appears that these weapons are directed to the Territorial Defence Staff
10 in Novo Sarajevo. Do you have anything to say about that?
11 A. I have nothing to say. I don't know about any of this.
12 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution would tender 65 ter 18369 into
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P6912, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
17 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P4932 for
18 the witness.
19 Q. I want to now return to the security of weaponry in JNA
20 facilities. This is a 7 March 1992 2nd Military District order from
21 General Kukanjac. Under item 1, he orders all levels of commands to
22 reassess the level of risk to facilities, personnel, and MTS and take
23 measures that will guarantee their full security. Do you see this
25 A. I see the document, I do.
1 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have page 2 of both
3 Q. I'd also like to focus your attention under item 10 where
4 General Kukanjac orders materiel, particularly weapons, ammunition, and
5 MES, which cannot be defended successfully to be transferred to
6 appropriate locations in good time. Are you aware of any actions
7 undertaken by the Territorial Defence in relation to this order?
8 A. You mean this paragraph 10?
9 Q. Sure.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, do we see only part of paragraph 10 in
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes. When in my
13 statement I spoke about things, it is precisely these things that I
14 meant. That is to say, I've already said this, there were
15 Territorial Defence depots that were not safe for ammunition and weapons
16 and then this was transferred to JNA depots, and I meant the period when
17 I was familiar with all of this. I mean during that first period when
18 you took me to 1990.
19 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, to answer your question, no, all
20 paragraph 10 is not currently on the screen in the English version.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Could we have the part you quoted on our screens.
22 Yes. Please proceed.
23 MR. WEBER: I actually have no further questions on the document.
24 I don't know if Your Honours have any more now seeing the full text. I'm
25 sorry for that inconvenience.
1 JUDGE ORIE: No, I have no further questions at this moment.
2 MR. WEBER: All right.
3 Q. I'm going move on to a different topic and discuss, actually,
4 your activities during the war. Is it correct that you dealt with the
5 exchange of prisoners from the KPD Butmir, that facility?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Is it correct that you -- took part actually in meetings at the
8 Sarajevo airport regarding the exchange of prisoners?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Is it correct that representative -- or at least a representative
11 of the ICRC attended these meetings?
12 A. I cannot remember. As a rule he should have been there, but I
13 cannot remember now. It was a long time ago.
14 Q. Maybe this will refresh your recollection.
15 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 06175.
16 Q. Sir, this is a report on a meeting held at the Sarajevo airport
17 on Wednesday, the 6th of October, 1993. It deals with the release -- I'm
18 going to read it to you.
19 A. I'm sorry, I don't have any translation.
20 Q. I'm going to read it to you. Let me know if you have any
21 questions. It deals with the release of detainees from Tarcin and Kula.
22 Did you -- were you aware of the Kula prison?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. According to this document in attendance were a number of
25 individuals, including a representative of UNPROFOR, the ICRC, an UNMO
1 representatives of the BiH, and three representatives from the Bosnian
2 Serb army, the VRS, including Colonel Magazin, Colonel Beara, and
3 yourself. According to these -- according to this report there's a
4 discussion of an exchange of prisons between the Kula and Tarcin
5 facilities. Do you recall this meeting?
6 A. No, really I cannot remember this meeting.
7 Q. Okay. Do you recall having meetings like this where you would
8 discuss the exchange of prisoners in the presence of Colonel Beara?
9 A. No. This was the first time I was with Colonel Beara and I never
10 attended an exchange with him after that. I was a member of the
11 commission on behalf of the Army of Republika Srpska, this commission for
12 the exchange of information, and in that capacity I attended meetings
13 down there at the airport. But when I was present, no one was ever
14 exchanged because this was done in different ways, along different lines.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Witness, you said you don't remember this meeting,
16 but in the same breath you say this is only time that you were in a
17 meeting with Colonel Beara. How do you remember that you were in this
18 meeting with Colonel Beara if you can't remember this meeting?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I cannot deny what is written
20 here. I don't remember this meeting, that I was there with Beara. But
21 that's what's written here and --
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me stop you. Let me stop you, sir. You
23 didn't say you don't deny, you say you don't remember. I'm not asking
24 you about any denial. You say you don't remember the meeting, but you
25 know that this is a meeting -- the only meeting that you had with
1 Colonel Beara. I'm just asking how do you remember that if you don't
2 remember, the meeting itself? I'm not talking about denials.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, all right. I came to the
4 conclusion that this was a meeting with Beara because I saw this on this
5 list and maybe it was a slip of the tongue. Maybe --
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Okay. The fact that Colonel Beara is
7 mentioned reminds you now of this meeting. You do remember this meeting?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could I make clear to you that you should
11 not draw conclusions on the basis of what you see on your screen. You
12 should tell us what your recollection is. So don't say that was the only
13 meeting I had with Beara if you have no recollection whatsoever about
14 having been in a meeting with Beara. You're not supposed to interpret
15 what you see on the screen. You're supposed to tell us what you remember
16 that happened at the time. And if you've forgotten about it, there's no
17 problem. But we'd rather know then.
18 Please proceed, Mr. Weber.
19 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, the Prosecution would tender this
20 document but we ask to have it MFI'd for the translation.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
22 THE REGISTRAR: MFI'd P6913.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Marked for identification.
24 MR. WEBER:
25 Q. Mr. Pereula, is it correct that civilians were kept in the Kula
2 A. I don't know about that because I was not present down there.
3 Other persons worked down there in security. I never visited Kula.
4 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 31595.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Before we look at that, could I seek clarification
6 of one of the previous answers of the witness.
7 You said you were a member of the commission on behalf of the
8 Army of Republika Srpska, the commission for the exchange of information.
9 Was that about prisoners or was it not about prisoners?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I was a member of the
11 Commission for the Exchange of Prisoners of War on behalf of the Army of
12 Republika Srpska. And there were other members of the commission on
13 behalf of the government, so I --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Witness, please limit your answers to my
15 questions. When you had these meetings at the airport, with whom did you
16 have those meetings?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We had meetings with the other
18 side, with the representatives of the Muslims and Croats.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. And you said no prisoners were exchanged
20 there; I understand that. But the subject of discussion was the exchange
21 of prisoners?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: And you had no knowledge where these prisoners came
24 from or where they were detained, or did you have any knowledge?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not. We had the task to
1 exchange people, but since we could not reach a concrete agreement, I
2 don't know of concrete cases.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Weber.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sorry, may I put a follow-up question.
5 Just now you said, "We had the task to exchange people..." What
6 kind of people are you referring to?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Specifically my task was to
8 exchange military persons, military personnel, and other members of the
9 commission probably had the task to exchange other people who had been
10 taken prisoner.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: What kind of other people? Are you talking about
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I mean prisoners of war,
14 civilians and soldiers and officers who had been taken prisoner, yes.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
16 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, I know it's a little bit early but I
17 just have -- before going into -- I don't have much more, so before going
18 into a whole subject and then returning to it after the recess, is there
19 any way we can just take the quick break and then I will finish rather
20 quickly in the next session?
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think the estimate was two and a half hours?
22 MR. WEBER: I believe it is one and a half.
23 JUDGE ORIE: One and a half. So you'll be considerably shorter.
24 MR. WEBER: I'll be within -- based on the answers of the
25 witness, yes, I'll finish well within the hour and a half.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, let's first -- Witness, we'll take a
2 break of 20 minutes and we'd like to see you back after that break.
3 And I'm looking at you, Mr. Lukic, the next witness is ...
4 [The witness stands down]
5 MR. LUKIC: The next witness is coming in the next week. You
6 know that we have shortcoming this week since one of our witnesses got
7 sick. And we -- [Overlapping speakers]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I know that. But did you --
9 MR. LUKIC: We didn't bring anybody. We couldn't bring anybody
10 else. And we didn't expect to finish this early today.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Because I remember earlier I asked you whether
12 the next witness would be available and you told us that he was and
13 that's true, but that's -- the follow-up was not available is -- I think
14 it would be have been wiser if you would have warned us that we would
15 have known already in advance that there was a fair chance that would you
16 run out of witnesses this week.
17 Let's take the break first and let's resume -- well, let me be
18 generous again. 22 minutes. Ten minutes to 11.00.
19 --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.
20 --- On resuming at 10.53 a.m.
21 JUDGE ORIE: While we're waiting for the witness to be escorted
22 into the courtroom, I'd also briefly like to deal with 65 ter 1D02733
23 which was tendered during the testimony of Mane Djuric. The decision on
24 the admission of this 40-page document was deferred, pending an agreement
25 between the parties concerning the ethnicity of people listed in the
1 document and about the number of pages which should be received in
2 evidence. On the 11th of November the Prosecution informed the Chamber
3 that it had not reached an agreement with the Defence concerning the
4 ethnicity of people listed in the document. On the same day the Defence
5 requested the admission into evidence of the entire 40-page document, and
6 the Chamber would like to hear the position of the Prosecution concerning
7 the admission of the whole of the document but not necessarily
8 immediately because we're not -- we'd prefer that we first focus on
9 hearing the evidence of Mr. Pereula.
10 [The witness takes the stand]
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, please proceed.
12 MR. WEBER: Just one housekeeping matter related to this witness.
13 The Prosecution has received the B/C/S translation for 65 ter 06175,
14 which was just marked for identification this morning as P06913. We just
15 wanted to inform the Chamber that the translation is now uploaded under
16 document ID ZA018615BCS -- BC. Excuse me. The Prosecution would just
17 ask that the Court Officer be instructed to attach the translation and
18 the document be admitted.
19 JUDGE ORIE: The instruction is given accordingly.
20 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Any objection against admission? Not. Then P6913,
22 once the translation is attached, is admitted into evidence.
23 Please proceed.
24 MR. WEBER:
25 Q. Mr. Pereula, before the break, we were discussing the commission
1 that you were a part of. The president of that commission was
2 Captain Dragan Bulajic; correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 31595.
5 Q. This is a Republika Srpska government central commission for the
6 exchange of prisoners and civilians list containing information on
7 persons from KPD Butmir. Just so you know, this document was recovered
8 from the Office of the Prosecutor from KPD Butmir. You are mentioned
9 throughout this report, and I just want to go through some of the
10 information with you today, if you could assist us.
11 The first person listed is a Mr. Ahmic. According to the
12 description --
13 MR. WEBER: And maybe if we could increase the -- the top portion
14 of the B/C/S version for the witness on the page before him.
15 Q. The first person listed is a Mr. Ahmic.
16 A. Something is crossed out in my version. I don't have that.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Well, whatever is crossed out, you don't have to
18 worry about that. Just follow carefully what Mr. Weber brings to your
20 MR. WEBER:
21 Q. The first person is Mr. Ahmic. According to this description
22 Mr. Ahmic was a Muslim who is transferred to another prison on
23 13 December 1992, and he was on a list of persons from Manjaca that was
24 held in KPD Dom Butmir. Did you have access to this type of information
25 as part of your involvement with the exchange commissions?
1 A. I am not aware of this, no. I wasn't engaged on the transfer of
2 persons from the Kula prison to ... to other prisons.
3 Q. You are mentioned in this description as providing information on
4 24 April 1993. Is it correct that you provided information on detainees
5 that were being kept in various detention facilities?
6 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat whether he said
7 yes or no.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat your answer, Witness. I
9 think you said no. Is that true?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Meaning that you did not provide that
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Weber, where can we see the witness's name on
14 this part of the document?
15 MR. WEBER:
16 Q. Sir, according this --
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Overlapping speakers].
18 MR. WEBER:
19 Q. -- document, it says --
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Oh yes, I see it now on the seventh line. Thank
22 MR. WEBER: Thank you. Occupation, driver; ethnicity, Muslim --
23 I'm sorry. This is the wrong description. Occupation, tile layer;
24 nationality, Muslim; currently held in Lukavica prison according to
25 information received from Major Pereula in Crna Rijeka on 24 April 1993.
1 Q. Sir, do you see that reference?
2 A. I can see that. I can see that, but ...
3 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the last part
4 of the sentence.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Could you repeat what you said after: I see that.
6 What did you then say?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that I did not provide this
9 MR. WEBER:
10 Q. Sir, it's not our position that you provided all of this
11 information, but is it correct that you did provide information? Do you
13 A. I did not provide information at all.
14 Q. You do agree that this is a reference to you; correct?
15 A. That's what it's -- says, but I did not do this.
16 Q. Further along in this description, it indicates that
17 Soniboj Skrljevic provided information that Mr. Ahmic was killed by a
18 sniper on 13 April 1994. Do you see that?
19 A. Yes. In 1993, 1994, yes, I see that.
20 Q. Sir, is it correct that as part of your role in the exchange
21 commission you became aware of prisoners who were dying in detention
22 facilities, like Mr. Ahmic?
23 A. I'm not aware of that either. If I can explain my reply -- or my
24 role in the commission.
25 Q. Sir --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Could you first explain why such information, as you
2 say, is not accurate, is not true, would appear in this document? If you
3 have any explanation for it.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have a specific
5 explanation. I don't know how this came about, but -- I don't know. For
6 sure, I did not ever provide information of this kind.
7 MR. WEBER:
8 Q. Sir, my question wasn't -- my last question wasn't necessarily
9 meant to intend that you provided such information. But is it correct
10 you received such information?
11 A. I did not receive such information either. This is why I wanted
12 to explain my role as a member of this commission. I did not receive
13 this kind of information, and I did not send out this kind of
15 Q. Okay. I want to go through a couple of more examples and maybe
16 we can figure this out together.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps the witness could explain what his role was
18 where he apparently was not privy to --
19 MR. WEBER: Okay.
20 JUDGE ORIE: -- information, either receiving or providing.
21 Could you explain what your role was?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Commission for the Exchange of
23 Prisoners of War was formed under the government of Republika Srpska, and
24 this lasted for a while, for a considerable period of time, and then the
25 government also said that there should be a representative of the Army of
1 Republika Srpska there. So then after two or three months, once the
2 commission existed, I was assigned by the Main Staff to be a member of
3 this commission, and so I attended the sessions of the commission with
4 Captain Bulatovic [as interpreted], who was the president, and there were
5 two or three other members, and Amir Masovic was in the commission as a
6 representative of the Muslim side. When I would come to these meetings,
7 for the most part we would discuss in general how prisoners of war should
8 be exchanged.
9 And while I was in the commission, we did not -- we did not
10 actually exchange a single prisoner of war. When I saw that, I orally
11 informed the Main Staff that there's no role for me in this commission
12 because real things are not being discussed in the commission when I am
13 present. So I attended the commission sessions very rarely. Nothing
14 would ever be resolved. But I was never officially removed as a member
15 of the commission, even though I wasn't a member of it anymore. So I was
16 there in the initial period, and all this information and data was not
17 conveyed through me.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: But if I may just ask a question, sir. We
19 understand your explanation. But this document on the screen here
20 describes a meeting at which you were present, your name is being
21 mentioned in this particular document. So is it possible that this could
22 be one of the few meetings that you attended?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was on the 8th of September,
24 1993. I don't recall this meeting. I don't recall that we ever
25 exchanged a single prisoner of war while I was a member of the
1 commission, and I personally never sent out any information about
2 prisoners of war to any of the prisons, and I never received such
3 information, in turn, from the prisons.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
5 MR. WEBER:
6 Q. Sir, I just want to clarify some things that just -- on the
8 In your last answer, in your last longer answer, the transcript
9 records you as saying the president of the commission was
10 Captain Bulatovic. Is it correct that you mean to be referring to
11 Dragan Bulajic?
12 A. No. Dragan Bulajic.
13 Q. Thank you, that's clear. You said you were appointed to the
14 commission by the VRS Main Staff. Who appointed you?
15 A. I cannot remember now. I received an order. Probably it was the
16 commander of the Main Staff.
17 Q. General Mladic.
18 A. Yes, yes.
19 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution tenders 65 ter 31595 into evidence.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P6914, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
23 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 30761 for
24 the witness.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, just glancing through the document we
1 just looked at, I saw that it was not only in relation to the first
2 witness -- to the first person, but that for -- I went now to three, but
3 that in all of those reports it is said that Mr. Pereula provided
5 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I think it's most, not all.
6 JUDGE ORIE: No, the --
7 MR. WEBER: -- but, yes, there are the -- [Overlapping speakers].
8 JUDGE ORIE: -- ones I saw, the first three.
9 MR. WEBER: Yes.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, are you aware that for some of the other
11 persons which were discussed in this document that you're also referred
12 to as a person who provided information although on some, I do understand
13 also, you were not mentioned as someone who provided information?
14 Any explanation for this not happening once but a number of times
15 in this document? And sometimes not being mentioned, which means that it
16 was apparently not an automatism. Yes. No, I'm still talking about the
17 previous document, Witness, so don't -- you don't have to read what's on
18 your screen now.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was officially appointed to be a
20 commission member by the Main Staff, and those who were in the main
21 commission knew it as well as the others knew it. However, I'm saying
22 now that my role in that was a minor one. I simply had the feeling that
23 I was not accepted in the commission, and it's possible that in view of
24 the fact that this was a -- an official thing, whoever drafted the
25 document, they put me into the document in the belief that I was an
1 official representative.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And sometimes they do mention you and
3 sometimes they apparently do not mention you, so it's apparently not
4 something of an automatic nature, but it's -- it's -- seems to be more
5 than that.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All I am asserting is this: When
7 we're talking about specific persons, I was never present and I never
8 provided any information about specific persons. Meaning, in meetings --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But also not outside meetings. You said you
10 never provided any information. Your role was minimal? Or did you ever
11 provide information? On whatever?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I never gave any information to the
14 JUDGE ORIE: What -- to the commission. Did you provide any
15 information about whatever matter directly related to your position in
16 the commission?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, I never did.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
19 MR. WEBER:
20 Q. All right, sir. Before you, this is a 24 April 1993 VRS
21 Main Staff urgent request from General Manojlo Milovanovic. In the first
22 part of this request, it states:
23 "With the aim of providing details of prisoners to the GS VRS,"
24 the Main Staff, "and conducting talks on the exchange of prisoners of war
25 and civilians, compile or update and send us the following lists ..."
1 Do you see this part? It's at the very beginning.
2 A. List of prisoners of war, a list of all those detained in the
3 territory, all who are in the village of ...
4 Q. Sir, you don't have to read the document to me.
5 A. Could you -- could you please read that once again. I wasn't
7 Q. I am starting at the very beginning, the part that says: "With
8 the aim" -- that starts: "With the aim of..." and then goes on to say --
9 sir --
10 A. Providing details. That what's it says here. Providing details.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Witness, Witness.
12 Mr. Weber, would you please read to the witness what you consider
14 And, Witness, would you not further look at your screen but
15 carefully listen to what Mr. Weber reads.
16 MR. WEBER: Of course, Your Honour.
17 Q. Sir, I just want to focus your attention on the first part which
19 "With the aim of providing details of prisoners to the GS VRS and
20 conducting talks on the exchange of prisoners of war and civilians,
21 compile or update and send us the following lists ..."
22 Do you see that beginning portion?
23 A. I wasn't following him now. I need to ...
24 JUDGE ORIE: Did you hear -- Mr. Weber read to you how it starts.
25 Mr. Weber, could you please put a question to the witness.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
2 MR. WEBER:
3 Q. Is it correct that the Main Staff would send orders to compile or
4 update lists of prisoners to all subordinate VRS corps, as we see here?
5 A. I am not aware of that. Perhaps the Main Staff did that along a
6 different line from a higher level. I wasn't in the situation to know
7 that. The principle of subordination is such that when information is
8 given, it's issued only to those authorised to receive or know that
9 information. I am not aware of this. I didn't need to know this.
10 Q. Okay. Let's focus on another part of this document.
11 MR. WEBER: If we could go towards the bottom of the English
13 Q. And, sir, it's towards the bottom in front of you too. In the
14 last paragraph, General Milovanovic states:
15 "Upon completion of this task, immediately begin compiling or
16 updating lists of Serbian prisoners of war, civilian prisoners and
17 detainees in prisons in Muslim-controlled territory, as well as prisoners
18 of war in prisons in Muslim-controlled territory..."
19 MR. WEBER: If we could please have the next page of the English:
20 Q. "... and Muslim prisoners of war and captured civilians in the
21 prisons of the RS."
22 That last part about the Muslim prisoners of war and captured
23 civilians in the prisons of the RS, that is a reference to civilians in
24 the prisons of Republika Srpska; correct?
25 A. Prisons in Republika Srpska and prisons in the Muslim part as
1 well. They're asking for Muslims, civilians, and captured Muslim
2 civilians in the prisons of Republika Srpska, yes.
3 Q. And this is the type of information you had available to you,
4 right, in your role in the exchange commission?
5 A. I am saying again all such orders and requests were sent by the
6 staff command, higher-ranking organs such as the chief here,
7 Manojlo Milovanovic, and all of that was sent to lower commands, corps.
8 The corps were obliged to provide this information, again, on the basis
9 of information from their subordinate units, brigades. So none of that
10 was conveyed through me. All of that went by other channels, not through
12 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Witness, could I -- Witness, this document
13 clearly states that it aims at obtaining information about persons
14 detained in view of discussions for exchange. Now whether you saw this
15 document or not, were you aware that such information was gathered for
16 the discussions on the exchange?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't know.
18 JUDGE ORIE: And you never received or obtained information which
19 one would expect to be gathered on the basis of such a -- such an order?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was not the system of our
21 work. That means that I was outside of all of that, although I had been
22 appointed. But I did not receive this information, I did not gather this
23 information, and this information did not go through me.
24 JUDGE ORIE: As you explained before, you had no idea what
25 happened there. Did you ever ask for your resignation in writing?
1 Because you were not informed, you did not play any role, you were there
2 just for nothing. That's at least how I understand your testimony.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right. That's right.
4 JUDGE ORIE: And you never -- and you never asked for your
5 resignation in writing?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I never asked for that in writing,
7 but orally, yes. And I was discharged from that duty only after the war
8 ended. And it was done officially by the government of Republika Srpska.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You are aware that if the Chamber receives
10 this type of evidence, written evidence, documentary evidence, that it
11 might assist us in interpreting it if someone would explain to us what it
12 was all about. But do I understand you well that you are not in a
13 position in any way to further explain what we see here, apart from that
14 you didn't know about it?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not in a position to explain.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll have to do -- we'll have to interpret
17 this evidence without being assisted by your knowledge.
18 Please proceed, Mr. Weber.
19 MR. WEBER:
20 Q. Sir, I just want to give you a fair opportunity to comment
21 consistent with my own obligations here before the Chamber. We saw a
22 document where you were -- according to it where you were providing
23 information to the exchange commission. The date of that information
24 even that we specifically looked at was 24th of April, 1993. And
25 incidentally here we now look at another document dated the same day
1 where this information is being collected by the Main Staff.
2 I see that you're smiling and that you smiled at a response to a
3 couple of my answers. I put it to you that based on your role in the
4 commission that your evidence is actually not accurate. Do you have any
5 other comment?
6 A. No.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Let's move on, Mr. Weber.
8 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honour. Could the Prosecution -- or
9 the Prosecution tenders this document into evidence.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P6915, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
13 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 06178 for
14 the witness.
15 Q. Sir, this next document is, I believe, a document that you saw
16 before in the Popovic case. This is a 13 June 1993 request from you. Is
17 it correct that you sent this document from the Drina Corps IKM in
19 A. I wrote this.
20 Q. And you sent it from the Drina Corps forward command post in
21 Cajnice; correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. We see the stamp from the command of the 1st Podrinje Light
24 Infantry Brigade, indicating this was received on the same date. Is it
25 correct that you sent this document to Colonel Miletic in the
1 Security Administration of the 1st Podrinje Brigade?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You state at the beginning of the document:
4 "Muslim armed forces in Gorazde have been placed in a very
5 unfavourable position. Soldiers and citizens are in a state of panic."
6 Is it correct that this was the outcome of VRS operations and
7 activities in the area of Gorazde prior to this date, before the 13th of
8 June 1993?
9 A. Sorry, what was that question? Could you please repeat that
10 question. I really do apologise.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And could you speak, please, into the microphone.
12 MR. WEBER:
13 Q. No problem, sir.
14 A. I would just like to ask him to repeat that question.
15 Q. Of course. I'm going --
16 A. What's the question?
17 Q. No problem. You state at the beginning of the document:
18 "Muslim armed forces in Gorazde have been placed in a very
19 unfavourable position. Soldiers and citizens are in a state of panic."
20 Is it correct that this was the outcome of VRS operations in the
21 area of Gorazde prior to June -- 13 June 1993?
22 A. Well, at any rate, these were the consequences of that combat. I
23 cannot remember the dates when all of this happened; but, at any rate,
24 this happened before my report. I mean, the consequences of combat.
25 Q. In the next sentence, you state:
1 "We decided to use propaganda more in order to carry out further
2 combat activities and realise our goal (liberation of Gorazde) as
3 successfully as possible."
4 When you say "we decided," you were referring to the -- to a
5 decision of the VRS Main Staff; correct?
6 A. No, no. I would have to explain this a bit. First of all, we
7 were not liberating Gorazde. Before that, in August 1992, we were --
8 Q. Sir --
9 A. -- we had left and our task was to --
10 Q. Sir --
11 A. -- return this territory and --
12 Q. Sir, my question is much more focused about that. There is a
13 specific reference that you are writing here that you say "we decided to
14 use more propaganda." Who is the "we" that decided to use more
15 propaganda, who are you referring to, the "we"?
16 A. The forward command post, the command of the forward command
18 Q. Okay. Then when you state "our goal (liberation of Gorazde),"
19 you're referring to a goal of the VRS then; correct?
20 A. Well, I'm referring to our units, our command, that received that
22 Q. I'm not sure, just based on what happened, that that was the
23 complete answer. Was that your complete answer?
24 JUDGE ORIE: But I would like to ask you. You said of the orders
25 you received, could you tell us from whom you received those orders for
1 the liberation of Gorazde? The task, I should say, not orders. But who
2 gave you that task?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Main Staff gave us that task.
4 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers]
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But we were not liberating Gorazde.
6 We were returning lost territories.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Well, that's all fine, but the document which you
8 sent says "liberation of Gorazde." But you are now interpreting that,
9 which is fine, and we have then the text and your interpretation.
10 Please proceed, Mr. Weber.
11 MR. WEBER:
12 Q. According to the next paragraphs, a message was composed which
13 was intended to be broadcast on air on radios in Foca, Visegrad, and Rudo
14 as well as on a megaphone from a moving armoured combat vehicle. You
15 then provide the text of the message, and it starts: "Muslims from
16 Gorazde ..." Is it correct that this message was directed to all Muslims
17 in Gorazde and not just soldiers?
18 A. No, just soldiers and officers. And this message did not even
19 reach the soldiers or officers or citizens of Gorazde because, to this
20 day, that population lives in Gorazde and even then they did not react to
22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please
23 be asked to speak into the microphone. Thank you.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could you please not lean back all the time
25 but rather come closer to the microphone.
1 MR. WEBER:
2 Q. Sir, I put it to you that the answer you just gave is somewhat
3 inconsistent from a previous answer you gave during the Popovic
4 proceedings, where you were asked at transcript page 24194:
5 "Now, that is a message, I suggest to you, first of all, wait for
6 the question, first of all, it's directed to the Muslims of Gorazde,
7 isn't it? That doesn't say soldiers?"
8 Your answer was:
10 Do you have any comment?
11 A. I do. I think this is an error made by the person who was
12 typing. And it was in war time. But I as the drafter never meant that.
13 I meant officers and soldiers.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, let me interrupt you right away. Do you
15 think that your answer in the Popovic case was wrongly recorded?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll verify that on the basis of the audio,
18 Witness, because we -- we very much are in favour of accuracy in this
20 Mr. Weber, I take it that --
21 MR. WEBER: Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: -- proper care will be taken, that you verify, and
23 if there is any -- it would be only fair to the witness that if there is
24 a mistake then, of course --
25 MR. WEBER: Yeah. It is, Your Honours -- we've discussed or our
1 position is that the official transcript does accurately record it and of
2 course we'll check.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Would you please do that and then inform the
4 Defence about the outcome of your check as well. Please proceed.
5 MR. WEBER:
6 Q. The body of the message states:
7 "You have realised that both of world and Alija have left you
8 high and dry. Allah himself will help you if you listen to us. We offer
9 you salvation because we are the only ones who can save you. Break up
10 from those who have driven to you death for months and take the road to
11 salvation. Head towards Kopaci and Ustipraca. There we guarantee you
12 life and final relief. There we offer you shelter and deliverance, and
13 then a road of your choice. It is far away from the hell Alija took you
14 to. Hoist the white flag and be on your way. We are waiting for you in
15 Ustipraca. You don't have much time."
16 Isn't it correct that you intended in this message to have the
17 Muslims in Gorazde surrender and leave?
18 A. No. In war time, of course all propaganda is allowed. Well, not
19 all propaganda, but propaganda that ensures victory. So through this
20 propaganda, I did not mean all citizens. I was referring to soldiers and
21 officers. We were not fighting with civilians, with citizens. We were
22 fighting soldiers and officers, and all of this, what I said, has to do
23 with officers and soldiers in order to create a feeling of uncertainty
24 among them and in order to win the battle. It did not pertain to
1 Q. Nowhere in this message do you differentiate between civilians
2 and soldiers; correct?
3 A. I agree that that is not written here, but I repeat: The typist,
4 who was not knowledgeable at all -- I mean, this is not even military
5 terminology. Oh, all right.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Excuse me, did you sign this document, sir, before
7 you signed it?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: And you saw that it says "Muslims from Gorazde."
10 It doesn't say "soldiers."
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you see, at that moment --
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Overlapping speakers]
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- when war operations are under
14 way and -- oh, all right.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: But you signed it saying "Muslim," not "soldiers."
16 Just answer my question. You did sign it notwithstanding that it says
17 "Muslims." You know that. The typist doesn't know. You know better.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't know. I didn't know what
19 he knew.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: No. You've just told us that this is not military
21 terminology, the typist didn't know, but you didn't mean Muslims you
22 meant soldiers, and I'm saying you signed this document referring to
23 Muslims, didn't you?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, we are spending already quite a lot of
3 time on it. Do you need any further details?
4 MR. WEBER: No, I think the meaning of it and the witness's
5 answers, the Chamber is able to assess it.
6 The Prosecution would tender 65 ter 06178 into evidence.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P6916 [Realtime error read in transcript
10 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
11 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution has no --
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: 6916.
13 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, are you seeking a clarification of
14 the -- ah, I see you have it now.
15 JUDGE ORIE: There was an incomplete exhibit number on the record
16 which is now corrected. And when you said the Prosecution has no, may I
17 understand it that it -- you have no further questions?
18 MR. WEBER: You're right, Your Honour. Thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 Mr. Lukic, any questions in re-examination?
21 MR. LUKIC: Just shortly, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
23 MR. LUKIC: Can we have on our screens P3083.
24 Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:
25 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Pereula, which organ issued this document?
1 A. The organ? SSNO.
2 Q. Tell us what that means, SSNO?
3 A. Federal National Defence.
4 Q. Federal Secretariat?
5 A. Federal Secretariat for National Defence of Yugoslavia.
6 Q. With its seat in?
7 A. Belgrade.
8 Q. All right. In your paragraph, you speak of -- that's paragraph 5
9 of your statement, the one of the 5th of March, which is D779. You speak
10 of the commander of the RS TO BiH.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. What does this mean?
13 A. The Republic Staff of Territorial Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
14 Q. In that paragraph you say that after the multi-party elections in
15 1990, especially in 1991, interethnic tensions went up in the TO Staff
16 and the commander of the staff of the TO as a result of the fear and the
17 estimation that the weapons would come into the hands of extremists of
18 any nation, in order to prevent this the commander of the Territorial
19 Defence Staff issued an order to increase the security?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Now let us look at document --
22 A. This -- this here, well, now, who was this sent to?
23 Q. Do you want us to stay with this document?
24 A. Yes. This was not sent to the Republic Staff of Territorial
25 Defence. It was sent to subordinated units and the republic staff never
1 received this order from 1990. And I said that in my statement, and then
2 this is being invoked. And look at this: The 1st Army, 2nd, 3rd, and at
3 the end you see this. So this does not pertain to the Republic Staff of
4 Territorial Defence and that is what I referred to in my statement and --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Witness, could you please speak more slowly
6 so that the interpreters can follow you. But I think they just managed
7 until now.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you.
9 JUDGE ORIE: So you don't have to repeat.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Now let us take a look at the next document.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] So we asked for document P6911.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Before we do that, Mr. Lukic.
14 Is it true, Witness, that where you suggested that the federal
15 level was separate from the republican level, that in paragraph 1 it
16 reads the Military District, air force, and naval district commands
17 together with the TO Staffs of the socialist republics which links at
18 least this initiative to the TO Staff at the republican level?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The order of subordinate units, and
20 that includes the staff of the Territorial Defence, will be a different
21 order based on this order and that will happen later because in
22 Bosnia-Herzegovina this escalation started later as compared to other
24 JUDGE ORIE: And you said the republic staff, talking about the
25 TO Staff, never received this order. How do you know? Where it's
1 addressed to the Republican Staffs?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. No. I do apologise if I
3 said it never arrived. I don't know whether they did receive it, or
4 when. Probably now --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Fine. If you don't know, then Mr. Lukic may have
6 more questions for you.
7 Please proceed.
8 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 [Interpretation] So could please have P6911 on our screens.
10 Q. This document does show, after all, that the Republican Staff of
11 Territorial Defence acted on the basis of the preceding document. That
12 can be seen from paragraph 1. However, it was put to you that on that
13 occasion this operation had been completed, or rather that what is in
14 paragraph 2 -- well, it's written here the relocation of the weapons and
15 ammunition of the TO SRBiH was carried out from the 18th of May until the
16 23rd of May 1990 with the exception of the region of Bihac and Banja Luka
17 where it was completed on the 13th June 1990.
18 This is what I'm going to ask you now. I'm going to ask you
19 about the paragraphs that follow and that read as follows. Two
20 paragraphs below this one, this is what it says.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It's the last paragraph on this page
22 in the English version.
23 Q. "The action applied to the armaments and ammunition of the
24 Territorial Defence and to other actors, only if so desired and
25 explicitly requested. The action did not cover the armaments and
1 ammunition of TO war units formed by work organisations."
2 In 1991, did you actually deal with this as well, inter alia;
3 that is to say, TO units that were formed by work organisations and their
5 A. Yes. All this fell under the Republican Staff of the TO and that
6 was only natural, and then the weapons were not properly secured there so
7 it was only natural that it had to be transferred so that proper security
8 could be provided.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, in view of the previous answer of the
10 witness that he doesn't know whether these orders were received, et
11 cetera, we should always lay a foundation because the witness now tells
12 us what is natural, whereas we'd like to know not what is natural but
13 what happened and what the basis of the knowledge of the witness for that
15 MR. LUKIC: My question, Your Honour, was --
16 JUDGE ORIE: No, I'm saying that the answer of the witness raises
17 some concerns about his knowledge and therefore I would like you to be
18 very specific, especially in this context, now, after having listened to
19 the previous answers of the witness, what his source of knowledge is.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Mr. Pereula, in 1991, did you personally deal with the relocation
22 of weapons that were intended for the war units of the TO in the work
24 A. Yes.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we look at the next page of the
1 B/C/S version and page 3 of the English version. Paragraph 2 in the
3 Q. And then we see here, it's the third paragraph from the bottom.
4 It states:
5 "Nonetheless, 64 municipal TO HQs which can deploy 452 war units
6 and 120 TO headquarters."
7 And then the last sentence says:
8 "The storage problem has not been resolved fully."
9 In 1991 did you deal with these municipal TO Staffs and the
10 placement of the -- or the storage of the weapons?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. I would now like to show you the following page in the B/C/S.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And page 4 of the English.
14 Q. We can see that proposed measures are being referred to just now.
15 And does this proposal of measures indicate that the process was not
16 complete at the time this document was issued on the 13th of September,
18 A. Yes, you can see that the process was not complete at the time.
19 And that is precisely why I was included later. But I was not aware when
20 these decisions were taken or the process of the decision-making. Once
21 they were made, then I became a part of that process.
22 Q. In paragraph 2 of item 1, it states:
23 "The commander of the Territorial Defence of the Socialist
24 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina should adopt a special criterion to
25 regulate the quantity of armaments and ammunition to be left with the TO
1 HQ to protect the TO plants and facilities."
2 Do you know whether the commander of the TO of the -- at that
3 time Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina was dealing with this issue
4 after this?
5 A. The order was that each staff had a war plan and a facility where
6 there had to be a guard set up, so weapons were supposed to be left
7 behind for that personnel.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I hope that you are aware that the
10 witness told us approximately an hour ago that he learned about all that
11 only later and he had no knowledge about it. Everything happened after
12 the multi-party elections. So you're now eliciting evidence from him on
13 matters which he earlier said that he didn't know.
14 MR. LUKIC: He didn't know as of April as he was answered.
15 JUDGE ORIE: He said -- [Overlapping speakers] ...
16 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] ...
17 JUDGE ORIE: The witness said that this may all have happened,
18 but he learned about matters only later. So apparently no direct --
19 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] Sorry.
20 JUDGE ORIE: -- personal observation on the matter.
21 I'm just pointing it to you so that we -- that you are aware of
22 potential problems in interpreting the evidence, both for the parties
23 and, of course, for the Chamber.
24 Please proceed.
25 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, I thought that introducing this witness
1 to this document with only one paragraph that is contradicting the rest
2 of the document has to be clarified.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then, as I said before, we have to pay
4 careful attention to the source of knowledge and the basis of it.
5 MR. LUKIC: I think that my questions are only about the
7 JUDGE ORIE: Well, let's proceed.
8 MR. LUKIC: Thanks, Your Honour.
9 I would like -- I kindly ask to have page 5 in B/C/S and page 6
10 in English. In B/C/S, it's second paragraph; in English, it's the third
11 paragraph on this page.
12 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Pereula, were you aware at the time that
13 there was a problem because it was not possible to have complete insight
14 as to the security for the weapons for the DPO. Could you please tell us
15 what the DPO is?
16 A. DPO is the socio-political organisation, "Drustveno-Politicka
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
19 MR. WEBER: Well, the question was something different, but I was
20 just concerned about the leading nature of going into that part of that.
21 But I see the question was something different.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Lukic, but the whole of the document is in
23 evidence, so even if the witness wouldn't know anything about it, of
24 course you can rely on the document itself. I mean, that's -- it's the
25 Prosecution who tendered it. It's now evidence.
1 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: So if you say they've not paid proper attention to
3 other paragraphs, then of course you can rely on it if you wish to even
4 if the witness doesn't know anything about it. The document is in
6 MR. LUKIC: But I'm testing his knowledge about the events.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
8 MR. LUKIC: I won't dwell for long and I won't raise any other
10 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Pereula, did you know that weapons were
11 obtained for the organs at the level of the republic and that they were
12 relocated and placed in the Hadzici military weapons depot?
13 A. I -- I didn't hear the question very well. Could you please
14 repeat your question?
15 Q. I am waiting for the interpretation into English, so you need to
16 wait a little bit.
17 A. Oh, I apologise.
18 Q. At the time were you aware that the weapons obtained for the
19 needs of the organs at the republican level were relocated to the
20 military depot in Hadzici; and, if you are aware, could you please tell
21 us when this was done?
22 A. I cannot remember.
23 Q. In your work, i.e., following the multi-party elections, was
24 there still the problem that there were no proper conditions at the level
25 of the republic to safely store these weapons?
1 A. Yes, that was a problem, that the security was inadequate for the
2 weapons of the TO. But all of this refers to 1991 which is what I am
3 talking about. I don't know what was going on in 1990. This is the
5 Q. I accept your explanation. We're just going to look at page 10
6 in the B/C/S and page 12 in the English.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, before we do so, we were at the time
8 where you would take a break, but if you say it's just a couple of
9 minutes then we would most likely adjourn for the day and even for the
10 week. I would be hesitant to restart for seven minutes or ten minutes
11 after the break. But could you please keep that in mind.
12 MR. LUKIC: I have two -- two minutes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then two minutes, and Mr. Weber.
14 MR. WEBER: I do have one document that I would just want to show
15 quickly and seek its admission, so --
16 JUDGE ORIE: And that's a matter of minutes?
17 MR. WEBER: A matter of three questions but not necessarily -- it
18 would be five minutes. Not more.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Well, then I suggest that we'll finish - but
20 I'm also looking at Mr. Mladic - for another ten minutes so that we can
21 adjourn for the day.
22 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Mr. Pereula, let's look at paragraph 5, the second paragraph with
1 a dash in both versions, which states:
2 "Pending the resolution of all important defence and
3 protection-related questions, it is proposed in the interim to store the
4 armaments and ammunition of the socio-political organisations in TO or
5 JNA depots."
6 Are you aware that this was the temporary solution to store this
7 materiel in the TO or JNA depots and that this was happening in 1990 and
8 1991 in the field, that ammunition and weaponry were being stored in the
9 TO and the JNA depots?
10 A. Yes, yes, both in the TO depots which had adequate security, and
11 where there were no proper conditions for this storage in the TO depots
12 these weapons and ammunition were stored in JNA depots.
13 Q. Mr. Pereula, thank you very much. These were all our questions.
14 Thank you.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
17 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 18371.
18 Further cross-examination by Mr. Weber:
19 Q. Sir, coming up before you will be another document from SRBiH TO
20 commander Bajcetic. It is an order he issued on the 23rd of October,
21 1990, regarding the gathering and submission of the remaining weaponry to
22 the JNA warehouses.
23 First of all could you read the order and let us know if that is
24 the same or a different order than you are referring to in your
1 A. That is not that order. I'm referring to the order by the town
2 commander Vukosavljevic, he was the town commander, and before he met
3 with General Bajcetic. What I said refers to a different order.
4 Q. Sir, I just wanted to show you this quickly and I understand you
5 claimed a lack of knowledge about a lot of things. But since Mr. Lukic
6 raised the issue that was there was remaining steps to be taken, I put it
7 to you that the republican TO did, in fact, shortly after that
8 September report, take further steps. Is it your evidence that you were
9 not aware of this?
10 A. Which year?
11 Q. These further steps as described on the 23rd of October 1990
12 which included, according to part 1, ammunition and MES from the social
13 and public companies, which I believe was just discussed with you with
14 Mr. Lukic?
15 A. The order was not completely executed until 1991. It was only in
16 1991 after General Vukosavljevic became the commander and then he issued
17 a separate order to complete the process, and also it was idea that
18 nobody could issue weapons or ammunition from any of the depots without
19 his explicit order.
20 Q. Okay. You really haven't answered my question but I'm not going
21 to labour on this.
22 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution would tender 65 ter 18371 into
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P6917, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
2 No further questions, Mr. Weber?
3 MR. WEBER: Yes, Your Honours. And thank you for the
5 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Pereula, this concludes your testimony in
6 this court. I'd like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague, a
7 very long way, and for having answered the questions, questions put to
8 you by the party, questions put to you by the Bench, and I wish you a
9 safe return home again.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 [The witness withdrew]
12 JUDGE ORIE: When the witness end the courtroom, I briefly raised
13 the matter of 1D1 -- 1D01730, 40 pages. Any position?
14 Mr. Traldi, it seems you're the one who is involved.
15 MR. TRALDI: Mr. President, just for clarity of the record, I
16 think it's 1D02733 --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 MR. TRALDI: -- that I'm being asked about. Is that correct?
19 JUDGE ORIE: You are right. You are right. And I must admit
20 that there is a typo somewhere because in my papers it's -- it gives two
21 times the right one. But there was a problem about it anyhow, isn't it,
22 so -- but we are talking about 1D02733.
23 MR. TRALDI: I'm relieved to that hear that, Mr. President, as I
24 was not prepared to address the other document.
25 As -- the Prosecution maintains its position, as I think I
1 briefly stated Tuesday, that we don't object to the admission of the
3 JUDGE ORIE: That's hereby on the record. We'll decide on the
4 matter. No, there's no objection. I think we can admit it. No number
5 has yet been assigned, I think.
6 Mr. Registrar, for 1D02733 what number would be assigned?
7 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D781, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: D781 is admitted into evidence.
9 We --
10 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
11 JUDGE ORIE: Then we have one left over, that is the video, the
12 associated exhibits.
13 Mr. Lukic --
14 MR. LUKIC: Thank you for Mr. Registrar. I forgot about it as
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, he was -- the video.
17 MR. LUKIC: 1D03030.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Having read the transcript meanwhile, the Chamber
19 does not insist on viewing.
20 Any -- there were no objections, Mr. Weber, although there is an
21 understanding that whatever the reporters say is not -- the Defence will
22 not rely on that and purely on - and I've forgotten of the person - but
23 who tell us what happened in this cellar of this cafe.
24 MR. WEBER: That's correct, Your Honour.
25 MR. LUKIC: Brica.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Brica.
2 Under those circumstances and with this understanding,
3 Mr. Registrar, the number would be?
4 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D782, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: D782 is admitted into evidence.
6 Are there any other matters? If not, we'll adjourn and we'll
7 resume Monday, the 16th -- let me just -- no, the 17th of November.
8 That's Monday morning, 9.30, in this same courtroom, I.
9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.09 p.m.,
10 to be reconvened on Monday, the 17th day of
11 November, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.