1 Monday, 17 November 2014
2 [Open session
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
9 IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 There is one preliminary matter but we can deal with that when
12 the enters the courtroom.
13 Is the Defence ready to call its next witness.
14 MR. IVETIC: We are, Your Honours, and our first witness this
15 morning is Milos Milincic.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then while we're waiting for the witness to be
17 escorted into the courtroom I briefly deal with P6549 which was MFI'd
18 with Witness Dragan Lalovic, 2nd of June of this year, and was used again
19 with Witness Ratomir Maksimovic, October 15th of this year, and it was
20 MFI'd pending a final revised translation. The revised translation has
21 been uploaded into e-court, as we understand, under
22 doc ID 0438-6958-A-ET.
23 [The witness entered court]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, you're instructed to replace the
25 current translation with the revised version of which I just mentioned
1 the number. And the P6549 is admitted into evidence.
2 Mr. Ivetic, as always, within 48 hours if there are any problems
3 with the translation and then we may revisit the matter if need be.
4 Good morning, Mr. Milincic. Before you give evidence, the Rules
5 require that you make a solemn declaration. The text is now handed out
6 to you. My I invite to you make that solemn declaration.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
8 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
9 WITNESS: MILOS MILINCIC
10 [Witness answered through interpreter]
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Milincic. Please be seated.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Milincic, you'll first be examined by
14 Mr. Ivetic. You'll find Mr. Ivetic to your left. Mr. Ivetic is a member
15 of the Defence team of Mr. Mladic.
16 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
17 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Examination by Mr. Ivetic:
19 Q. Good morning, sir. Could I please ask you to state your full
20 name for the record.
21 A. Milos Milincic. A retired teacher of Serbo-Croatian language and
22 literature. I was the president of the municipality of Srbac, for seven
23 years director of the educational institute in Banja Luka, and I was
24 retired, as I said, as a teacher of the Serbo-Croatian language.
25 MR. IVETIC: [Microphone not activated] Test, test.
1 If we could have a look at 1D1726 in e-court.
2 Q. Sir, do you recognise, first, the signature on this first page of
3 this statement?
4 A. Yes, I do. This is my original signature, and it's all right.
5 Q. If we can now turn to the last page in the Serb original, do you
6 recognise whose signature appears on this page of this written statement?
7 A. Yes. This is, again, my signature, and the date is
8 12th July 2014.
9 Q. Sir, after signing this statement did you have occasion to review
10 the same in your own language to see if everything is correct therein?
11 A. Yes, I checked it, and I discovered a terminological error. I
12 corrected a date, whereas everything else was accurate and fair, and I
13 signed it as such.
14 MR. IVETIC: If we could turn to paragraph 23 to be found on
15 page 6 in both languages.
16 Q. Sir, you mention that you corrected a date. In paragraph 23,
17 what correction is necessary?
18 A. My encounter with General Mladic in Banja Luka was before the
19 date stated herein, in August of 1992, and not as it says here. That is
20 the correction that had to be made. In other words, the year 1992 would
21 be the correct year.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 MR. IVETIC: Now if we could turn to page 4 in both languages,
24 and I'd like to focus on paragraph 15 of the same.
25 Q. And, sir, this is talking about the shelling of Srbac, and it
1 says here that you advocated that we should not respond with fire to the
2 fire that had come from the Croatian side and it seems to indicate that
3 no fire was returned. Is this accurate or is there a correction or
4 clarification required?
5 A. Well, the real reason why I was summoned to see the general in
6 Banja Luka two months later is what it says here; that is to say, that
7 there was no --
8 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please slow down. It is
9 difficult to comprehend.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you should slow down. Otherwise, your
11 words will be lost because the interpreters can not follow you at such
12 speed of speech.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I repeat, it says here that the
15 Srbac Brigade or, rather, we did not return fire on the Croatian side but
16 it is true that the manpower did not fire at Davor, which is the
17 neighbouring Croatian municipality, the aim of which had been to create a
18 provocation from the Croatian side, believing that if they target Srbac,
19 that the Srbac artillery would retaliate against the place called Davor
20 which is across the river Sava.
21 I don't know what is exactly inaccurate, but I would say that the
22 only accurate thing is that we did not return fire, but not at Davor
23 which was innocent, but we returned fire on the highway, somewhere in the
24 direction of Dobrinja, I think it's called, which is in the direction of
25 Slavonski Brod from which a lorry-mounted launcher was used as well as
1 multi-rocket-launcher and after the attack, they pulled out under a
2 fly-over. The escorts from Motajica mountain were able to spot the
3 location wherefrom the fire had originated, and the artillery of Srbac
4 did not retaliate against Davor but, rather, responded to the general
5 area. When I say general area, I mean that the fire coming from Croatian
6 side was disguised, and this is something that I wanted to add to item
7 15, which means that artillery retaliated but not against Davor but
8 rather targeted the place of origin of fire. Later on I was reported,
9 and some allegations were made against me, with the general --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, could I seek some clarification.
11 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Do I understand no return fire to Davor but return
13 fire, and you mentioned one specific target, that was this mobile
14 launcher, and, in more general terms, to the area from where fire had
16 Is that well understood?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct. Yes, that is correct.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
19 MR. IVETIC:
20 Q. Sir, apart from this -- these clarifications and corrections that
21 we've gone through today, do you stand by everything else in your
22 statement as written?
23 A. Yes, yes, I do. In short, yes. We can go into some details, but
24 essentially that's it.
25 Q. Okay. We'll go into some details, sir, but recall my time is
1 short. Could you please just answer my questions.
2 If I were to ask you today the same questions, would your answers
3 be the same as recorded in your statement?
4 A. Yes, yes.
5 Q. And, sir, you have taken the solemn declaration to tell the truth
6 today. Does that mean we can conclude that the answers as recorded in
7 the statement are truthful?
8 A. They are accurate. But I would like to add that it's difficult
9 for those who are trying to prove the truth.
10 Q. Are your answers as recorded in the statement truthful, sir?
11 A. They are truthful and authentic, and if you wish we can expand.
12 But since you have a limited amount of time, I would say that everything
13 is contained in my statement. That's the core of my statement.
14 Q. Can --
15 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, can I please tender 1D01726 into
17 JUDGE ORIE: No objections from the Prosecution side.
18 Madam Registrar.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D1726 receives number D783,
20 Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
22 MR. IVETIC: And, Your Honours, there is one associated exhibit,
24 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections against?
25 MR. MacDONALD: No, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D2991 receives number D784,
3 Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
5 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, at this time I would read the short
6 summary of the statement for the public.
7 Milos Milincic, a teacher by profession, was president of the
8 Srbac municipality from 1990 to 1997.
9 Srbac [Realtime transcript read in error "Brigade"] municipality
10 had about 879 non-Serbs out of a population of 22.000 in the 1990s and
11 the situation is the same today, except that the overall population is
12 about 19.000.
13 There was --
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's the last signature. One
15 year ago.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Witness --
17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Census, not
19 JUDGE ORIE: -- Mr. Ivetic reads a summary of your statement.
20 There's no need to change anything. That's not the evidence. The
21 evidence is your statement. It's just to inform the public, so there's
22 no need to intervene.
23 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
24 MR. IVETIC: There was no private or public plan to discriminate
25 against ethnic minorities in Srbac municipality. Neither was there any
1 ethnic cleansing.
2 Muslims from Srbac joined the VRS and 22 of them were wounded as
3 members of the VRS as part of the Srbac Brigade.
4 Srbac and Croatian Davor kept peaceful relations despite Croat
5 forces shelling Srbac on three occasions in 1992. The witness advocated
6 that restraint be shown and fire should not be returned on Davor.
7 General Mladic personally supported the witness in his quest for peaceful
9 And that ends the summary, and I do have some more questions for
10 the witness.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Ivetic, may I seek clarification with respect
12 to page 7, line 7. The transcript I see Srbac Brigade municipality at
13 about and then follows a number of non-Serbs. Is that --
14 MR. IVETIC: It should be just Srbac municipality in temporary
15 transcript page 7, line 7.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
17 Q. Sir, I'd like to look at paragraph 11.
18 MR. IVETIC: Which can be found on page 3 in both languages.
19 Q. Sir, in this paragraph, which goes on to the other page, you talk
20 about non-Serbs being in the VRS and you identify 22 that were wounded.
21 Can you tell us how many non-Serbs from Srbac municipality were in the
22 Army of Republika Srpska?
23 A. Before I left to come to here I checked these figures, and I was
24 told that the figure was 78 or 79, was the number, total number of
25 non-Serbs in the VRS, whereas in the Srbac Brigade there were some 42 or
1 43 of which 22 were wounded and are receiving disability pensions. And
2 that can be proven by documents. If you allow me, I would like to add --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, would you please limit yourself to
4 answering the question. The disability pensions are in your statement.
5 We've read that. So, therefore, would you please limit yourself to the
6 question. The answer then being 78 or 79, the total number.
7 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
8 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
9 Q. Now I turn to paragraphs --
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't understand what the 78 or 79 relates to,
11 because the Srbac Brigade is -- the number there is 42. Now, of what
12 corps of what organ are the 78 and 79, if 42 are from the Srbac Brigade.
13 MR. IVETIC: My understanding would be that they're with other
14 brigades in the VRS, but we can ask the witness to --
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: If you could, please.
16 MR. IVETIC:
17 Q. Sir, could you explain for us the difference between the numbers
18 79 and 42. In what -- to what membership are you referring to?
19 A. Yes. The Army of Republika Srpska had a number of corps and
20 brigades and not all of Srbac conscripts were in the Srbac Brigade. They
21 were in other units, and that's what the number 78 or 79 refers to. And
22 we heard what the number was in the Srbac Brigade.
23 JUDGE ORIE: So what you're talking about is those recruited from
24 Srbac in the entirety of the VRS, 78, 79 --
25 THE WITNESS: Yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: -- of which 42 in the Srbac Brigade.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
4 MR. IVETIC: I'd like to now turn to page 6 in both languages.
5 Q. And I'd like to focus on your evidence in relation to
6 paragraphs 23 through 25 therein.
7 Here, you are talking of your encounter with General Mladic.
8 Now, first, can you tell us what was the event or reason which caused you
9 to be summoned by General Mladic.
10 A. People found it incomprehensible that only 1 kilometre from Srbac
11 across the river Sava there was a Croatian town that the people of Srbac
12 never targeted, and they established some kind of personal reasons for
13 that, especially since Srbac had been shelled three times from the
14 highway without us retaliating on Davor, which is within the range, and
15 possibly these accusations came from those people who denounced me, and
16 they were so serious that they eventually reached General Mladic who has
17 to have a final say about who was right and who was wrong. Shall I
19 Q. The rest of your meeting with General Mladic is recorded in
20 paragraphs 23 through 25. I'd like to ask you what did General Mladic do
21 with you after the meeting; that is, did you go home right away or not?
22 A. No. I was ordered to come at 9.00 and when I presented the
23 situation to the general, and I was rather enraged that everybody else
24 knows more about Srbac than I did or that the commander of the brigade
25 did, and I was surprised at being interrupted by general but he was in
1 good mood, probably after having had a breakfast, and he said don't pay
2 attention to those fools and don't engage in direct conflict with the
3 Croatians. Then we went to another meeting at 10.00 where there were
4 numerous people of the Krajina leadership, various commanders, presidents
5 of municipalities, who were debriefing us on the situation with supplies
6 and other problems in the municipalities. When I took to the floor and
7 said this person came to see me, this person from Srbac is doing a good
8 job, don't meddle with the problems of Srbac. Take care of your own
9 backyard. Nobody needs any unnecessary conflicts.
10 There were other words exchanged and I wanted to continue in the
11 same manner.
12 Q. If I can intervene, has been recorded in the transcript that you
13 said this. Is it correct that you said this or that someone else said
15 A. I informed the general, as I said earlier, and I explained to him
16 what the problem was and -- which was not to enter into an unnecessary
17 conflict. And he said, Now I see that you are right and I understand
18 what they're accusing of. Don't pay attention to those fools. And when
19 they are thrashed, they are asking where are the red soldiers, and
20 there's no need for you to fight with the Croats. And he reiterated that
21 at the meeting --
22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't hear the last word that
23 the witness --
24 MR. IVETIC:
25 Q. Could you repeat the last word that you just said.
1 A. What he told me, that I was right, he repeated the same before
2 500 people at another meeting, that people in Srbac are doing well, that
3 they are not provoking any conflicts, that they are providing clothing
4 and food for the army, and that they are keeping everything under
6 Q. And just so that we can have a complete picture, sir, you earlier
7 said that someone said:
8 "... this person came to see me, this person from Srbac is doing
9 a good job, don't meddle with the problems of Srbac. Take care of your
10 own backyard. Nobody needs any unnecessary conflicts."
11 Who said those words? Because it has not gotten into the English
13 A. The general said that when we went to this joint meeting before
14 500 other representatives from the Krajina. When I wanted to take the
15 floor, he was quicker so I said very little. This man spoke from the
16 heart and he is right. You who keep saying that you know better what is
17 going on in other people's yards should take care of your own backyards.
18 Srbac was working well. I was supported in this way, my brigade, Srbac,
19 unfortunately until the end of the war. We persevered and we did not
20 have a confrontation with the Croatian side.
21 Q. Now, when you left this meeting and -- this meeting with
22 General Mladic and went back to Srbac, did the pressure for you to attack
23 Davor go away or not?
24 A. These people from other municipalities and other environments,
25 they kept complaining because we were being soft on Davor, as they put
1 it. And I would say to them you clear this up with General Mladic. He
2 has the right information and he agreed that we should continue working
3 in this way. So then the complaints went down. The hawks were not that
4 loud anymore. We did not go into confrontation.
5 I saw the mayor of Davor this summer, and he also had trouble
6 with the Croatian side, and he was also being maligned. They were saying
7 that he was a Chetnik, that he was co-operating with the Serb side, and
8 so on.
9 Q. Did General Mladic ever withdraw the support he had given you in
10 your quest to keep the peace with Davor?
11 A. This agreement that he gave in 1992 remained valid throughout the
12 war. He never withdrew it.
13 Q. Sir, I thank you for answering my questions.
14 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, that completes my direct examination.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.
16 Mr. MacDonald, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?
17 MR. MacDONALD: I am, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Milincic, you'll now be cross-examined by
19 Mr. MacDonald. You'll find him to your right. Mr. MacDonald is counsel
20 for the Prosecution.
21 Please proceed.
22 Cross-examination by Mr. MacDonald:
23 Q. Witness, you testified twice before this Tribunal in the
24 Krajisnik and Karadzic cases, is that right?
25 A. Yes, yes.
1 Q. And in Krajisnik you testified about the murder of
2 Halid Hadziselimovic by Ljubomir Stankovic. That's right?
3 A. That's right.
4 Q. And you brought a document referring to a judgement of the
5 Banja Luka military court with reference number IK23/92, and you said
6 this document showed Ljubomir Stankovic being convicted for the murder of
7 Halid Hadziselimovic. That's right, isn't it?
8 A. I brought this document. It was incomplete. This document was
9 from the prison, the KP prison where he was serving his sentence. It was
10 incomplete then. I believe that that was clarified at that point in
11 time, but I see there is an attempt being made to multiply this further.
12 Q. Well, Witness, that reference number and that judgement refer to
13 an entirely set of crimes, didn't it?
14 A. The mentioned gentleman, if we are going to go for a chronology
15 of events, had --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Witness, the question simply was, the document
17 you had shown which apparently contains a conviction, whether it was a
18 conviction for the killing of Halid Hadziselimovic or whether it was for
19 other offences. That's the question.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I don't know about
21 the details. I know that this person was convicted for some of these
22 incriminations and there were several of them. I cannot speak about
23 something that I don't have before me. I would have to see what it was
24 that I indicated.
25 In 2005, when I was in the Krajisnik case, the municipalities
1 gave me some paper and then it turned out to be invalid. Now was this
2 that kind of sentence? I don't know. I'm not a court of law. I'm
3 representative of the civilian authorities.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, in your statement in a paragraph in which
5 you refer to this killing and nothing else, you say:
6 "The murderer, Ljubomir Stankovic, son of Veljko, was convicted
7 by the ruling of the Banja Luka military court number IK23/92."
8 Is that document dealing with a conviction for this killing?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I don't know whether
10 it was that killing or -- because -- yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Then your statement should have been corrected in
12 2014 when you suggested strongly that the document was. It was not the
13 whole truth. It was apparently part of the truth.
14 Please proceed, Mr. MacDonald.
15 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, can I -- my thing's not working. Can I
16 see where the document is mentioned in the statement and that it refers
17 to it referring to this murder. It says that the murderer was convicted
18 by ruling and that the murder and wounding of two Muslim Bosniaks at
19 Kobasi committed by the same person who committed the previous crime.
20 There is no document mentioned stating it's for --
21 JUDGE ORIE: I see -- well, let's see. Paragraph 13, third
22 bullet point, deadly wounding of Halid Hadziselimovic, a Muslim, the
23 murderer Ljubomir was convicted by the ruling of, and then the number
25 MR. IVETIC: Yes. And if you read the rest of him [sic], it also
1 mentions other crimes that this individual did. There is no reference to
2 a document --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's --
4 MR. IVETIC: -- as being specifically for this crime.
5 JUDGE ORIE: No. The document appears in the bullet point which
6 exclusively deals with this killing and that's the reason why I said it
7 strongly suggests. I didn't say it's untrue. I said it's not the whole
8 of the truth. It should have said if it was about others. But
9 apparently the witness doesn't know and that makes it even worse. He
10 says I don't know what exactly is in there. And that should have been
11 verified before he signed this statement.
12 MR. IVETIC: Well, Your Honour, he is being asked about testimony
13 from another case --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Well, Mr. -- Mr. --
15 MR. IVETIC: -- without being shown the transcript, without being
16 shown the document, so that's why he doesn't know. We're not following
17 the procedure of the courtroom.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, if you are telling us that what we find
19 in this statement, that the witness has not seen this document about
20 which he states, then, again, there may be a problem in the
21 statement-taking practice of the Defence. He --
22 MR. IVETIC: If I may respond, Your Honour. He has not been
23 shown this statement, he has not been directed to this paragraph. So
24 you're making allegations of what the witness is saying as to this
25 paragraph is improper, when the Prosecution is referring to another case
1 without showing the transcript, which is your procedure in this courtroom
2 that you said that I have to follow, the Prosecution does not to follow.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Okay.
4 MR. IVETIC: It's not at issue yet.
5 JUDGE ORIE: If there's any issue, I understood the question to
6 relate to the Hadziselimovic killing and the appearance of this number in
7 the bullet point which exclusively deals with that killing.
8 The witness gives a statement about this document, so the
9 Prosecution may assume that the witness is familiar with that document
10 without it being shown to him in court here because he comes up with it.
11 And I leave to that at this moment. And --
12 MR. IVETIC: I would direct you to page 14, line 3 through 9,
13 where this line of questioning relates to the Krajisnik case,
14 Your Honour. I appreciate that perhaps you might recall things from that
15 case or not.
16 JUDGE ORIE: I have no recollection.
17 MR. IVETIC: But it's -- if the question is in relation to
18 testimony in another case, the procedure is to show that testimony to the
19 witness in court, read it, and so we're all on the same page.
20 JUDGE ORIE: If you'd -- I understood it that the witness in this
21 case gives the same information in his statement. That's how I
22 understood it. But when I'm wrong, Mr. Ivetic, then I would be happy to
23 learn that in your re-examination.
24 Please proceed, Mr. MacDonald.
25 MR. MacDONALD: Yes, Your Honour.
1 I wonder, can the Prosecution please have 65 ter 31607, please.
2 Q. Witness, can you look at this document, please. Is this the
3 document you brought to be used in your Krajisnik testimony?
4 A. This is a statement of the public security station in Srbac. It
5 is not a statement by the court. And it says very nicely what this is
6 all about. And it says here Article 36, paragraph 2 --
7 Q. Can I just interrupt you for a moment, please. I'm just asking
8 you to confirm if this is the document you brought in relation to the
9 murder of Halid Hadziselimovic in the Krajisnik case.
10 A. If that is from me, if that is what I brought then, I don't
11 remember, probably, then that's it. I don't see why all this fuss is
12 being made over something that is sort of misty, and I think that you're
13 trying to compromise my --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Witness, please refrain from comments.
15 Please answer the questions.
16 MR. MacDONALD:
17 Q. Well, Witness, if I can ask you to look at the top left, there is
18 the reference number IK23/92. Can you just confirm that can you see that
19 for me, please. That's all I'm asking you to do.
20 A. Yes, yes. Yes, yes, military court in Banja Luka, yes.
21 MR. MacDONALD: Can the Prosecution now have 65 ter number 31600.
22 And I'm looking for page 77. My apologies, one page backwards to the
23 start of his testimony on this.
24 Q. I'm going to read out some of your testimony to you,
25 Mr. Milincic. We don't have this in B/C/S, unfortunately.
1 This is during your examination-in-chief in the Krajisnik case.
2 And the lawyer states:
3 "Let's move on to a completely different topic, if we may.
4 Tab 12, please. This relates, doesn't it, to the murder of
5 Mr. Hadziselimovic, whom you told us had for a time being -- been the
6 vice-president of the municipality. He had then, you've told us,
7 resigned his seat within the assembly, and I think you told us he went to
8 live elsewhere. Is that right?"
9 And you answer:
11 The lawyer then states:
12 "Now, let's not look at the first page, because I don't think
13 that helps. The second page, which is the certificate with the Latin
14 script, which is a document dated the 25th of March, 1996. Help us
15 please. Top ..."
16 And then it moves to the next page of the transcript.
17 "... top left-hand corner it says 'vojni sud u Banja Luci.' Read
18 that, please, top left-hand corner?"
19 And then you answer:
20 "Military court in Banja Luka, IK number 23/92, dated 25th of
21 March, 1996."
22 The lawyer then states:
23 "We see then the name, Stanica. Continue reading it, please."
24 And you answer:
25 "Yes. Public security station Srbac. The following information
1 is hereby ... delivered for the following convicted person, first and
2 last names Ljubomir Stankovic, father's name Veljko, mother's name
3 Koviljka, maiden name Sancanin, born on 30th of August, 1960, place of
4 birth Saferovici village, Srbac municipality, socialist republic Srpska,
5 resident at Saferovici village, Srbac municipality, Republika Srpska,
6 ethnicity Serb, citizenship Republika Srpska, private by occupation
7 worker. Date and number of judgement, 20th of March, 1995, IK number
8 23/92. The judgement handed down by the military court in Banja Luka for
9 which offence, and it goes on to say, murder, under Article 26,
10 paragraph 2, item 6, and the criminal offences of causing general danger
11 under Article 172, paragraph 1 of the Criminal Code of Republika Srpska.
12 Sentence: Nine years of imprisonment. President of the Chamber,
13 Captain First Class Svetozar Davidovic."
14 And then you're asked:
15 "How do we know which murder this refers to?"
16 And you answer:
17 "I asked to be sent -- I asked for it yesterday. I know who was
18 murdered, but you don't, and of course I will not give a false statement.
19 I know that it incurs responsibility. You can later on verify my
20 testimony. An offence can be interpreted in different ways. The
21 vice-president of the municipality ..."
22 MR. MacDONALD: And if we turn over the page, this quotation is
23 almost finished.
24 Q. The lawyer interrupts you and says:
25 "Sorry, you're about to tell us. Just tell us who it is and how
1 you know. Just tell us who it is that this individual murdered, and how
2 you know who -- who it is?"
3 And you answer:
4 "Ljubomir Stankovic mentioned herein, shot the former councillor
5 and vice-president of the assembly, Halid Hadziselimovic, who died
6 several days later in the hospital as a result of his wounds."
7 You then discuss briefly how you know this, and at line 13 of
8 this page, you state:
9 "This is the judgement handed down in relation to the same man,
10 Stankovic, for that particular murder."
11 MR. MacDONALD: If the Prosecution could go back to 65 ter 31607,
12 please. Thank you.
13 Q. Now, Witness, perhaps I can ask you again: This is the document
14 you brought and read out in the Krajisnik case, isn't it?
15 A. Yes. Now I see that, yes.
16 Q. And in the Krajisnik case, you said this referred to the murder
17 of Halid Hadziselimovic, didn't you?
18 A. I stated that then, not knowing about some other things that had
19 happened in the meantime. As for Halid, I was expressing interest
20 because he was my vice-president. As for other incidents in the
21 municipality, I -- I was not in charge. I could just receive
23 Q. Yes, I will turn to the crimes of Ljubomir Stankovic in a moment.
24 When you were cross-examined in the Krajisnik case, you were shown the
25 full judgement with this reference number and it was clear that it
1 related to a completely different set of crimes. And you accepted that;
2 that's right, isn't it?
3 A. I really, really am being exposed here to the nitty-gritty of
4 what I said and what I did not say. I mean, I'm not an expert. I am not
5 involved in a court review or whatever.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Witness, the question simply was whether it
7 was put to you when you testified in the Krajisnik case that this
8 judgement did not deal with this killing and that you accepted that.
9 That's the question.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If that's what I said then, then
11 that's the way it is. I really cannot be a sorcerer now and remember
12 what I said then. The president of the municipality did and said what he
13 said. Now, I came here for Mladic, to say what is important.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Witness --
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now since you have no other
16 documents that would compromise me, now you are trying to rehash this
17 story three times and whatever.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, if you want to us consider your testimony,
19 you should answer the questions. You were called by the Mladic Defence.
20 The parties this is this courtroom decide what questions will be put to
21 you, and if the Judges have any additional questions they'll put those
22 questions to you. You're supposed not to comment on relevance and
23 importance because that's not for you to judge upon.
24 And I do understand now that you say if that's what the
25 transcript says in Krajisnik, you do not challenge that.
1 Please proceed, Mr. MacDonald.
2 MR. MacDONALD:
3 Q. Well, Mr. Milincic, you say that we're trying to rehash this
4 story three times, so let me just put the Prosecution position to you.
5 You came in Krajisnik and you represented that this document showed
6 Ljubomir Stankovic was convicted for the murder of Halid Hadziselimovic.
7 That was shown to you to be incorrect; that that judgement referred to
8 something else. And you've now come before this Trial Chamber in Mladic
9 and you're making the same claim with that reference number, a claim you
10 know to be incorrect. Is that right?
11 A. I don't know whether it is correct or incorrect. I know that
12 this thing happened, that the man was tried. Now whether Halid was also
13 ascribed to him, I don't know. Then I thought it was that way. Now I
14 see it's different. Now I see that it's a fact that there were other
15 things that he was tried for, but really I don't know. I showed it then,
16 and that's why I brought it, to show the problems that we had during the
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. MacDonald.
19 MR. MacDONALD:
20 Q. I now turn to the substance of the crimes committed by
21 Ljubomir Stankovic in Srbac. So he murdered Halid Hadziselimovic in
22 May of 1992. After murdering Hadziselimovic, he is arrested but he's
23 released shortly thereafter by the military authorities. That's right?
24 A. That's what I was told. When I reacted later, when I said, Why
25 is this man free? And they said, We did not release him. It was the
1 military court that did.
2 Q. And then in August of 1992, a few months later, he shoots four
3 Muslims killing two and wounding two others. That's right?
4 A. Yes, I heard about that too, yes.
5 Q. And he is released again, and we know this because in
6 September 1994 he commits another crime, accidentally shooting and
7 injuring two Serbian children?
8 A. Should I answer? Well, that's the way it was. But the president
9 of the municipality was not a factor to arrest and try. My only mistake
10 was that he was convicted for Halid and not the rest. I really don't see
11 what more you want.
12 Q. Sir, I'm just asking you to confirm that's what happened in Srbac
13 municipality with regard to Ljubomir Stankovic. What I've said is
14 correct, isn't it?
15 A. That's right. Those are facts that are not confirmed or
16 challenged or attested to by the president of the municipality. I can
17 talk to you about other crimes as well, those committed against Serbs --
18 Q. Mr. Milincic --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Witness --
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- but that's probably of no
21 interest to you and --
22 MR. MacDONALD:
23 Q. If you just care To answer my --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, would you please refrain from aggressively
25 telling us what we should do, aggressively telling what Mr. MacDonald
1 should do, and -- you're here to answer questions.
2 Please proceed.
3 MR. MacDONALD:
4 Q. Mr. Stankovic was a member of the VRS, wasn't he?
5 A. Did I confirm that now? Well, yes.
6 Q. And as president and a member of the civilian authorities, you
7 didn't have any authority over him?
8 A. Of course.
9 Q. In fact, the best you could do was report him and ask that
10 something be done about him; is that right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And you did report his crimes and ask that something be done,
13 didn't you?
14 A. It wasn't I who reported it. Excuse me. I didn't reported it.
15 I was only receiving information about what was happening. There are
16 other services, police, the army, that were in charge of that, and they
17 were just keeping the president abreast and highlighting what was
18 important; that is to say, that not all the information reached my office
19 but rather only such information that people believed to be important and
20 that he would be of help in finding a solution. I don't know if you
21 understand me. So it wasn't me who reported it when I heard about it,
22 but I was informed about it only later on.
23 Q. Were the crimes committed by Ljubomir Stankovic reported to the
24 military authorities; do you know?
25 A. I suppose so, because he was a soldier.
1 Q. You had problems in Srbac with other soldiers coming on leave.
2 That's right, isn't it?
3 A. Yes, of course there were.
4 Q. Are you aware if their crimes were also reported, just as
5 Stankovic's were?
6 A. I'm aware of two or three cases, the killing of the Malesevic
7 family. The perpetrators were detected later and prosecuted. There were
8 attacks on Serbs and also on the Vejnovic family. We reported that as
9 well. The Vejnovic family was beaten up and plundered. There were other
10 instances of looting, harassment, et cetera. I was insisting more on
11 some more relevant things.
12 MR. MacDONALD: And, Your Honours, I seek to move to a new topic
13 now but I'm aware of the time.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do you want to tender any of the -- I take it
15 not -- the transcript? And is this one in evidence, the 2392 IK --
16 MR. MacDONALD: There is a judgement relating to it, Your Honour,
17 but I would tender 65 ter 31607, which is the document the witness
18 brought which also refers to that judgement.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Document 31607 receives number P6918,
23 Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
25 MR. IVETIC: And the judgement is already in evidence as P03538,
1 I believe.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Then -- yes. We take a break, Mr. Milincic. We'd
3 like to see you back in 20 minutes. You may follow the usher.
4 [The witness stands down]
5 JUDGE ORIE: We'll resume at five minutes to 11.00.
6 --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.
7 --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.
8 JUDGE ORIE: We're waiting for the witness to enter the
10 [The witness takes the stand]
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. MacDonald, you may proceed.
12 MR. MacDONALD: Thank you, Your Honours.
13 Q. Mr. Milincic, you've spoken about your efforts to maintain in
14 Davor but, in fact, as early as 1993, you advocated the taking of
15 international personnel as hostages, didn't you?
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic.
17 MR. IVETIC: Well, I thought the question had talked about at
18 first to maintain peace, it's misstating the evidence if it's indicating
19 that there's a contradiction.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. MacDonald.
21 MR. MacDONALD:
22 Q. Perhaps if I can, I'll simply ask the question, Mr. Milincic. In
23 1993, you advocated the taking of international personnel as hostages; is
24 that right?
25 A. I have to explain a wider context.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Witness --
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't want to be described as
3 being aggressive again, but --
4 JUDGE ORIE: No one used -- oh, you mean that I used
5 "aggressively." That was when you instructed the parties that they
6 should do in this courtroom. That's something totally different from
7 answering a question.
8 The question simply was whether you, in 1993, whether you
9 advocated the taking of international personnel as hostages for and
10 whatever reasons, if Mr. MacDonald would like to know. But the reasons
11 he'll ask you about it. But did you advocate that in 1993?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. But on condition that I'm
13 allowed to explain in what context I said that. Yes, yes, I did say
14 that, but I would like to clarify --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Well, in re-examination, Mr. Ivetic will have an
16 opportunity to further explore the backgrounds of why you did that and
17 whether you may have done it for good reasons, I do not know. But at
18 this moment have you to answer Mr. MacDonald's questions.
19 MR. MacDONALD: Can the Prosecution please have 65 ter 02366.
20 Q. I'm going to show you your words, Mr. MacDonald. This is the
21 transcript from the 24th session of Republika Srpska Assembly on 8th of
22 January 1993.
23 MR. MacDONALD: I'm looking for page 80 in the English and I
24 believe page 55 in the B/C/S. Or perhaps page 79 in the English to see
25 the speaker.
1 Q. Mr. Milincic, you recall being at this session and speaking at
2 this special?
3 A. Yes, yes. Yes.
4 MR. MacDONALD: If we can turn to the next page in the English,
6 Q. And, Mr. Milincic, if I can direct you to the last part of your
8 MR. MacDONALD: And for Your Honours, it was the last
9 paragraph in the English.
10 Q. You state:
11 "We also have something to blackmail them with. Homeini and his
12 team held a very small number of Americans in the American embassy in
13 Tehran and shook America quite well. Well, we also have enough of those
14 white men or the others and that can be used as our weapon."
15 You're advocating hostage-taking as a weapon; is that correct?
16 A. Mm-hm.
17 JUDGE ORIE: It's difficult to -- mm-hm is -- on the transcript
18 doesn't show as a "yes" or a "no." And I do understand that you agree
19 that you are advocating hostage-taking as a weapon.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
22 MR. MacDONALD: I'd now like to turn to a new topic.
23 Q. In paragraph 4 of your statement, you say there were 879
24 non-Serbs in Srbac and that only 60 of them moved away, mainly for
25 economical reasons. But, in fact, many more non-Serbians -- non-Serbian
1 citizens left during the war, didn't they?
2 A. I didn't have exact records. And as for those who appealed to me
3 and asked to be allowed to cross over to Croatia --
4 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the end of his
5 answer. It was too quick.
6 MR. MacDONALD:
7 Q. You're being asked to repeat the end of your answer there,
8 Mr. Milincic. You spoke too quickly.
9 A. We're talking about numbers here. The number is 800 -- no, 60.
10 Sixty-something people left for third countries, whereas you say that
11 there were more of them. I'm telling you again that not all of them
12 reported to me. Whenever I intervened for people to be able to cross
13 over, that would be approximately the number as stated here. Am I being
14 clear enough?
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Milincic, may I draw your attention to the
16 following. If this is what you intended to say in your statement, then
17 you should have said a small number of them, around 60 persons, reported
18 to me because they wished to leave the municipality.
19 Because there is a difference and you -- I think you would be
20 aware of that, that saying that 60 people moved out is not the same as I
21 know of 60 people who reported to me that they wished to move out,
22 because there may have been others who did not report to you --
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand.
24 JUDGE ORIE: So the statement in this respect is not accurate.
25 But we now better understand what you intended to say.
1 Mr. MacDonald.
2 MR. MacDONALD:
3 Q. Do you accept that, in fact, the majority of the Muslim and Croat
4 population in Srbac in 1991 had left by 1995?
5 A. No, no. No, I cannot accept that. I cannot be precise, but I
6 wouldn't say a majority.
7 MR. MacDONALD: Can the Prosecution please have P03853.
8 Q. Mr. Milincic, this is an overview of data on the number and
9 ethnic structure of the population according to the municipalities by the
10 Banja Luka Department of State Security, and it refers to 1991 and 1995.
11 MR. MacDONALD: If we can have page 6 in the English and page 5
12 in the B/C/S, please.
13 Q. Now, sir, here we see Srbac, 1991, Muslims 940; Croats, 145. In
14 1995, we see Muslims, 300; Croats, 50. Now this document, sir, shows
15 that over two-thirds of the Muslims had departed and almost two-thirds of
16 the Croats had departed. Do you now accept that the majority of Croats
17 and Muslims left Srbac --
18 A. Yes, yes, I can see that. I can see these facts. I didn't had
19 them before, I mean this information, and as a person who was in the
20 civilian authorities, I was never presented with this kind of report.
21 Yes, it's all right. This is a fact. I didn't believe that the majority
22 left, but it seems that they had. All I wanted to add was that quite a
23 few Serbs also left for other countries.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Well, Witness, you're explaining this to say, I
25 never received this information but you believed.
1 This Chamber is not interested primarily in what you believe but
2 is primarily interested in what you know.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't know that.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And, therefore, you perhaps should have
5 refrained from giving firm statements on the matter if you don't know.
6 Please proceed, Mr. MacDonald.
7 By the way, I have another question. In your statement you say
8 in 1991 that 95 per cent of the population was Serb, whereas this data
9 makes 90 per cent of the population Serb. Less than 90.
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Is that a question? Well, you
12 know, we politicians, we usually say around 90 per cent. Unfortunately
13 that's how we communicate. There is no statistical accuracy. Even
14 nowadays if somebody asks me how many of them there are, I would say
15 between 80 and 90 per cent. So there's no accuracy there.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but you didn't give a statement as a politician
17 but you did give a statement as a witness and you said 95 per cent,
18 whereas at least in this data for 1991 it gives a little bit less than 90
19 per cent of Serbs.
20 Please proceed, Mr. MacDonald.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If that is important, that is what
22 I thought at the time.
23 JUDGE ORIE: My problem is that in your statement apparently no
24 clear distinction is made between what you think, what you believe, and,
25 on the one hand side, and on the other hand, what you know, and that is
1 what we are interested in.
2 Please proceed.
3 MR. MacDONALD:
4 Q. Mr. Milincic, before I move away from this topic, I'm not
5 suggesting you've seen this document before. What I'm suggesting that
6 your position that in Srbac people only left for economical reasons and
7 there was no large leaving is entirely incorrect, and as president of
8 Srbac you would have known that at the time?
9 A. You are chastising me. I know that people were leaving. But as
10 for this data, I didn't know about that. Not that I wasn't expected to
11 know, but I was facing more serious problems.
12 How many people left every day, it is difficult to keep a tab on
13 that and to keep any records. The whole area was being emptied.
14 Everybody was running away, including the Serbs. People were leaving.
15 And now if you look at it through a magnifying-glass, then we have what
16 we have. And you interpret it in your way, which is not correct.
17 Q. I wonder if --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Well, let's -- Witness, again, would you please
19 refrain from making these kind of sweeping general statements which do
20 not assist in any way the Chamber, neither does it assist the party that
21 calls you or the party that is opposed to that party.
22 Please proceed, Mr. MacDonald.
23 MR. MacDONALD: Can we please have the witness's statement on the
24 screen. It is D783. It is paragraph 4 which interests me which is on
25 page 3 in the English, and I believe -- it begins on page 2 in the B/C/S,
1 I believe.
2 Q. Witness, I'm going to read out the translation of your statement
3 on this matter and you can tell me if it's correct, what it says in the
4 B/C/S versions of your statement. Starting at the top of page 3 in the
6 "A total of 879 non-Serbs faced the 1990s on their hearths. A
7 small number of them, around 60 persons, moved out during the war, mainly
8 for economic reasons. The situation is almost the same today ..."
9 That's what you said in your statement, isn't it, Mr. Milincic?
10 A. [No interpretation]
11 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the answer from
12 the beginning.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could you re-start your answer. The
14 interpreters were unable to catch it.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This figure, 60, should mean 60
16 families. That would be more appropriate than what is says here, 60
18 MR. MacDONALD:
19 Q. Does it say 60 persons in the B/C/S version of your statement,
20 Mr. Milincic?
21 A. Yes, I can see that it says "lica," that means "persons." Now I
22 see that.
23 Q. And your position, the position you've maintained up until
24 today -- Mr. Milincic, if you wait a second. Sorry. If you wait for my
25 question, please.
1 The position you've maintained up until today is that 60 persons
2 moved out for economic reasons but the situation is the same. That's
3 just not true in 1995, in any case, is it, Mr. Milincic?
4 A. Most of the families returned. I don't know how many because I
5 wasn't the president of the municipality after 1997. Therefore, I don't
6 know. And the term today or nowadays is a relative one. What does that
8 Q. So you're now accepting that these relatively large numbers of
9 Muslims and Croats had left the municipality and had not returned by
11 A. Until 1995, yes, it could be true. But as for nowadays, I don't
12 know. Because the war wasn't over by 1995. I don't know if you're
13 referring to 1995 or 2005?
14 Q. I'm referring to what the document shows, the one I just showed
15 you, which is, by 1995, over two-thirds of the Muslims and almost
16 two-thirds of the Croats had left Srbac, the municipality you were a
17 president of. I'll just finally to ask you to agree that that's correct
18 and then we'll move on.
19 A. Yes, I think that on the whole this is accurate. I know that
20 Serbs were moving out as well, but that is not important at the moment.
21 Q. If I can move on. Mr. Milincic, a mosque in Kobas burned down on
22 11th of July, 1993. That's right, isn't it?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Kobas is in Srbac municipality.
25 A. Yes, it is.
1 Q. And the perpetrators or those who burned it down were not
2 identified, were they?
3 A. Not during my term of office, and I don't think that they have
4 ever been identified. So you're right.
5 Q. I'll now turn to a new topic. You were an SDS --
6 A. May I just add something to this?
7 Q. If you can just answer my questions, Mr. Milincic.
8 A. And it's relating to the mosque.
9 JUDGE ORIE: If it's direct in relation to the question that was
10 put to you, you may. If it's not, you may not.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The last time I also stated that
12 there was a commission formed by the police and the court that fire
13 department went to extinguish the fire, and the next day the police
14 determined the cause of the fire, but to this date it wasn't clear what
15 happened. There were three versions, whether it was done by the Serbs,
16 whether it was caused by lightening, or it was possibly burned by the
17 Muslims themselves fearing retaliation and they wanted this to be a kind
18 of provocation. This has not been resolved to this very day. I would
19 like to know what the outcome is and I would like to have it to insert it
20 in the book that I'm currently writing, and I mean who set the mosque on
22 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Witness, this last part is not related to
23 the question. The first part of what you added did relate to the
25 Mr. MacDonald.
1 MR. MacDONALD:
2 Q. You were a member of the Main Board of the SDS from 1990 until
3 2002; is that correct?
4 A. Yes, yes.
5 MR. MacDONALD: Can the Prosecution please have 65 ter number
6 17134. This is a list of SDS Main Board members in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
7 I'll be looking for page 2 in both languages.
8 Q. Towards the bottom of this document, we see your name and contact
9 details; is that right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And this document, in fact, provides a work and home telephone
12 number as well as an address for SDS Main Board members, doesn't it?
13 A. Yes, yes.
14 Q. Do you recall if you had a document like this during your time as
15 a Main Board member?
16 A. I really don't remember. It is possible, but I don't have it in
17 my files.
18 MR. MacDONALD: The Prosecution would move to tender this
19 document, Your Honours.
20 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Under relevance, what the probative value of -- the
22 witness says that he was a member of the Main Board.
23 MR. MacDONALD: Indeed, Your Honours, but he's confirmed that the
24 other people there were also members of the Main Board.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Well, that's -- if you consider that -- "and this
1 document, in fact, provides work and home telephone number as well as
2 address for SDS Main Board member, doesn't it?"
3 If you consider a confirmation of that, then you should have been
4 more explicit.
5 Could you have a look at the names on this list. It was
6 suggested to you that these were all members of the Main Board of the
7 SDS. Do you find any name in there which you know not to be a member of
8 the Main Board of the SDS. Apart from --
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. I think that this is
10 probably authentic. Most probably.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Well, authentic or not, but you -- it's your
12 recollection there's -- the persons on this list were members of the SDS
13 Main Board.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It still leaves open time-frame,
16 Mr. MacDonald. But at least these persons, as the witness says, were at
17 a point in time, members of the SDS Main Board.
18 Please proceed.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, first, I should decide on admission.
21 Madam Registrar.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Document 17134 receives number P6919,
23 Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
25 MR. MacDONALD:
1 Q. Srbac set up a Crisis Staff in 1992; that's right.
2 A. That's probably right. I cannot confirm it. If there's some
3 written record of that, and I'm sure there is, and last time I did bring
4 minutes of the meetings of the Crisis Staff, but I cannot give you an
5 exact date. We had Crisis Staffs and a War Presidency. Crisis Staffs
6 were a continuation of the former Yugoslavia. They had been set up in
7 case of floods and earthquakes and other disasters, and then they acted
8 accordingly during war time.
9 MR. MacDONALD: Can the Prosecution please have 65 ter number
10 31609. This is an excerpt from the Srbac Official Gazette.
11 Q. It is Article 1 that I'm interested in, Mr. Milincic. Can you
12 read it and then confirm that this is the decision setting up the Crisis
13 Staff in Srbac.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. We see it's dated 28th May. If I can ask that the B/C/S be
16 scrolled up.
17 JUDGE ORIE: But the translation doesn't say that it was made in
18 28th of May, is it?
19 MR. MacDONALD: We only had the first article translated,
20 Your Honour, but I'm happy to confirm with the witness.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 MR. MacDONALD:
23 Q. Mr. Milincic, does this refresh your memory, was a Crisis Staff
24 in Srbac set up on 28th May 1992?
25 A. The date is stated up here, and I cannot deny that.
1 Q. It was set up pursuant to an order from the Autonomous Region of
2 Krajina. That's right, isn't it?
3 A. I do not see here on the basis of what, just the Statute of the
4 municipality of Srbac. I cannot see. I mean, you are referring to a
5 decision of the ARK Krajina, but I do not see that.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Witness -
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And I do not see the letterhead --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Witness --
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And I --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, the question is whether it was pursuant to
11 an order of the Autonomous Region of the Krajina, not whether the
12 document says so but whether you have a recollection that it was set up
13 pursuant to an order of the Autonomous Region of Krajina. Was it or was
14 it not or don't you know?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll accept that. I'll accept
16 that. With a risk, yes. I mean, really, let us not have a polemic here,
17 I mean ...
18 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, if you say you accept that, it means that
19 you don't know. Because you add that there's a risk involved. If you
20 don't know, just tell us.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would rather decide on a yes.
22 Because the document is not written here but memory is memory so I would
23 accept yes. Yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Well, why didn't you at the first question respond
25 with a yes? The question was put to you. Your final answer now is yes.
1 Not because the document says but because you remember. Why not
2 immediately say: I remember that it was. It saves a lot of time.
3 Please proceed.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, all right. I mean, I'm a
5 serious man, a responsible man. I want to assist us all. So, yes, as
6 for this automatic thing why I didn't say so immediately, you know what?
7 JUDGE ORIE: No, no. Just listen to the question, answer them --
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let it be yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. MacDonald, please proceed.
10 MR. MacDONALD:
11 Q. Did you become president of that Crisis Staff?
12 A. I signed it, so yes. Yes.
13 MR. MacDONALD: Can the Prosecution please have 65 ter number
15 [Prosecution counsel confer]
16 MR. MacDONALD:
17 Q. And, Mr. Milincic, I'm just looking to refresh your memory
18 regarding the Autonomous Region of Krajina order.
19 MR. MacDONALD: It's page 41 that I'm looking for.
20 Q. This is your Krajisnik testimony, sir. If we look from line 9
21 onwards, the lawyer in that case asked you:
22 "Was a Crisis Staff formed?"
23 You answered:
25 He asked you why, and your answer was:
1 "At some point in 1992, we received an order from AR Krajina, and
2 AR Krajina, once again, was an institution referring to the Krajina
3 municipalities gravitating around Banja Luka."
4 Just to confirm, sir, I appreciate we've discussed this already,
5 but just to confirm, you accept the Crisis Staff in Srbac was set up
6 following an order from the Autonomous Region of the Krajina?
7 A. Yes.
8 MR. MacDONALD: If I can now move to --
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
10 MR. MacDONALD:
11 Q. If I can now move to the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of
12 the Krajina. When that was formed, the presidents of the municipalities
13 like yourself became members. That's right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And you attended meetings of the ARK Crisis Staff?
16 A. For the most part, yes.
17 Q. And you heard about violence, including killings, against Croats
18 and Muslims in other municipalities of the ARK, didn't you?
19 A. Where? Crisis Staff of the ARK Krajina? No, no. Comments could
20 have been sort of in the couloirs but nothing official. I didn't receive
21 any or provide any. I mean, nothing official. The motive of our
22 meetings was something else and why the ARK Krajina and why I went from
23 Srbac to the ARK Krajina. I was interested in wood, crude oil, survival.
24 Not crimes. I mean, somebody from Srbac to talk about that. I mean,
25 give me a concrete question and I'll answer.
1 Q. Either officially or unofficially, you heard about crimes against
2 Muslims and Croats, including killings, in the ARK?
3 A. Quite frankly, what I heard about more was crimes against Serbs
4 at the time. Of course, this was heard as well.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Witness, whether you heard more about other
6 things, if you're asked about it, please tell us. But the question was
7 whether you heard about killings of Muslims and Croats in the ARK.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At official meetings I did not hear
9 that. Unofficially --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Witness --
11 THE WITNESS: No.
12 JUDGE ORIE: That was already part of the question. Officially
13 or unofficially. Do I understand that when I interrupted you, that you
14 were about to say that you did hear of that unofficially?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Please wait for the next question.
17 MR. MacDONALD:
18 Q. Witness, I'd like to move to some statements made by certain
19 people now. Vojislav Kupresanin was the president of the ARK Assembly.
20 And you know him, don't you?
21 A. Very well. Very well. Know him to this day.
22 MR. MacDONALD: If we have 65 ter number 02366, please.
23 Q. This is a transcript from the 24th Session of the RS Assembly on
24 8th January, 1993. It is the one we looked at earlier when you spoke
25 about hostage taking.
1 MR. MacDONALD: At this time if we have page 77 of the English
2 and 52 of the B/C/S, please. Perhaps if we can go back one page in the
3 English - my apologies - to see who is speaking. Or back two pages.
4 Q. Now, Witness, this is Mr. Kupresanin speaking.
5 MR. MacDONALD: If I can ask the English be brought forward two
6 pages now.
7 Q. Now, Witness, I'm looking at part of his speech where he says, or
8 he begins:
9 "We say that the war was not necessary in Bosnia and
11 Do you see that sentence?
12 A. I cannot find it. Probably it is there.
13 Q. It may be on --
14 A. I believe that you are interpreting it the way it is.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Well --
16 MR. MacDONALD: It may be on the last page.
17 JUDGE ORIE: It must be a different page. It's ...
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I couldn't find that.
19 MR. MacDONALD:
20 Q. Can I ask to look now, sir, I think it may be near the top.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Are you guiding the witness to the top of the B/C/S
23 MR. MacDONALD: Not of this page, Your Honours. I think it's --
24 well, perhaps if I can check with the witness.
25 Q. Mr. Milincic, the bottom paragraph, the name of the speaker --
1 A. I just cannot find that.
2 JUDGE ORIE: No. I don't think it's on this page. It's clear
3 that at the top Mr. Kupresanin -- [Overlapping speakers] ...
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot find it. Yes, yes, but
5 I --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Which -- it's you who should find it, Mr. MacDonald,
7 not the witness.
8 MR. MacDONALD: I thought I had, Your Honour.
9 Q. Mr. Milincic, can I just check the name of the speaker, the last
10 speaker on this page in the B/C/S, that is Mr. Kupresanin?
11 A. Yes, yes, yes.
12 MR. MacDONALD: Can we move to the next page in the B/C/S,
14 Q. Now, Witness, I believe it's the start of the first or the second
15 paragraphs. The sentence stating:
16 "We say that the war was not necessary in Bosnia-Herzegovina."
17 Do you see that?
18 A. Yes, yes.
19 MR. IVETIC: For the record, it's the third paragraph from the
21 MR. MacDONALD: I'm obliged to my friend.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then could you also have a look at 3 to 5
23 or 3 to -- 5 to 6.
24 The easiest way to find your way often is by looking at numbers.
25 I see -- in the paragraph in English I see 3 to 5 clearly appearing. In
1 the B/C/S, however, I see at approximately the same place 5 to 6 which
2 may illustrate an error. I'm not saying it is, but...
3 MR. MacDONALD: Indeed, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
5 MR. MacDONALD:
6 Q. I'm going read out that text to you, Mr. Milincic, where
7 Kupresanin states:
8 "We say that the war was not necessary in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
9 The war in Bosnia and Herzegovina was necessary. Right now, if we were
10 to count the population right now, there would be...," and the next word
11 is either "over" or "about" "... a million Muslims in Bosnia and
12 Herzegovina. Bosnia and Herzegovina would be predominantly a Serb
13 republic. Is war necessary in Serbia? It's a horrible thing to say that
14 war would be necessary in Serbia. If Serbia does not go into the war
15 now, then in three to five years the Albanians and Muslims will be
16 entirely legally overtaking the power in Belgrade, along with the Serb
17 opposition. This war was necessary for the Serb people."
18 Now, Mr. Milincic, this quotation was read to you in Krajisnik,
19 and you were asked the following question?
20 "Q. Mr. Milincic, isn't Mr. Kupresanin and that body before all
21 those delegates acknowledging the reduction of the Muslim population in
22 Bosnia and Herzegovina, a reduction that took place through massive
23 forcible expulsions. Isn't that what that's a reference to?"
24 And your answer was:
25 [As read] "Yes, those are the facts."
1 When you said that, you were telling the truth to the Krajisnik
2 Trial Chamber that those were the facts, weren't you?
3 A. Are you speaking about Mr. Kupresanin's remarks during the
4 discussion? Is that what you're referring to, whether that is a fact or
5 not? So you asked me whether he said that, and you say that in the
6 Krajisnik case I confirmed that that was the case.
7 Do we have a correlation here? So the question is what? Whether
8 Kupresanin did say that or not? Is that what you're asking me?
9 Q. No.
10 A. Oh, no.
11 Q. I have read out to you what Kupresanin said. I have read out to
12 you that --
13 A. Understand.
14 Q. -- in answer to the question posed to you in the Krajisnik you
15 said, "Yes, those are the facts," and I'm asking you whether you told the
16 truth to the Krajisnik Trial Chamber, that those were the facts?
17 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, the Krajisnik Trial Chamber had two
18 questions posed at that time.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can we have the transcript on the screen,
20 Mr. MacDonald.
21 MR. MacDONALD: Indeed, Your Honour. Can the Prosecution have
22 65 ter number 31600. And it is page 126. And the quotation that was
23 read out is the page before, Your Honours. I'm happy to go back to it if
24 Your Honours wish. The question is at the top from line 2.
25 JUDGE ORIE: I think if you slowly read the question to the
2 MR. MacDONALD:
3 Q. Mr. Milincic, in Krajisnik, you were asked:
4 "Mr. Milincic, isn't Mr. Kupresanin in that body, before all
5 those delegates, acknowledging the reduction of the Muslim population in
6 Bosnia and Herzegovina, a reduction that took place through massive
7 forcible expulsions? Isn't that what that's a reference to?"
8 And you answered:
9 "Yes. Those are ... facts."
10 What you said in Krajisnik, your comment upon Kupresanin's
11 statement, is correct, isn't it?
12 A. I said that that is what the member of parliament said in the
13 discussion. I am not saying that that is a fact in terms of that being
14 the factual situation. He presented his view of the situation, which the
15 assembly did not adopt. So this is just free discussion. It's a fact
16 that he took part in the debate, like many other people do. Very
17 forcefully, very emotionally. Sometimes perhaps in a way that is not
18 exactly moderate. But in the debate people can say whatever they wish.
19 However, the conclusions cannot be just anything.
20 So when I say it is a fact, it is a fact that Medic and
21 Kupresanin did take part in the discussion very forcefully, very
22 emotionally, but this was not adopted by the assembly.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, that's your interpretation of those words.
24 By the way, you did not say that that is a fact but you said those are
1 Let's move on, Mr. MacDonald. And could you please have the
2 translation verified. Because if you look at the beginning of the
3 paragraph of the document you've shown us before, then it seems that
4 these are all separate sentences, whereas at least in the one language
5 it's different from the other one. Apart from the 3 to 5 which suddenly
6 becomes 5 to 6. So therefore, there's a real need to carefully review
7 that translation also in view of the first two sentences where the first
8 sentence apparently says something which is immediately then contradicted
9 by the second: Was it necessary? It was necessary or it was not
10 necessary. That's -- raises quite a few questions. Please have it
12 MR. MacDONALD: I'll have it verified.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
14 Q. Mr. Milincic, did you know an Aleksa Milijevic?
15 A. Milojevic, is that who you mean.
16 Q. Yes, it is.
17 A. Milojevic, yes. He is an economist, yes.
18 Q. And was he the Republika Srpska minister for spatial planning and
20 A. Well, that's not the one then. Then maybe this surname is
21 correct what is written here, Milijevic. I do know an Aleksa Milojevic,
22 though. I said yes a moment ago with Aleksa Milojevic in mind, but this
23 other person, Milijevic, as I see here, even if he was there at the time
24 I don't seem to remember him, the one you said was minister for spatial
25 planning and development.
1 Q. Perhaps can I move past this topic.
2 Witness, in -- moving to a new topic, in paragraph 17 of your
3 statement, you discuss the transfer the 22.000 people from
4 Bosnia-Herzegovina to the Republic of Croatia. The 22.000 people you
5 discuss, they were Muslims and Croats; is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 MR. MacDONALD: Your Honours, I have one more topic with the
8 witness, but perhaps given the time, I don't think I'll finish in the
9 next couple of minutes.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Then I'm looking at you, Mr. Ivetic, and I'm also
11 looking at Mr. Mladic. If it's a matter of a couple of minutes, would
12 you prefer to have the break now and have the cross-examination concluded
13 after the break or would you rather want to know the whole content of the
14 cross-examination before we take the break.
15 MR. IVETIC: I would defer to my client. Mr. Stojanovic is
16 asking him.
17 My client is asking for the break to be taken now.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then we will take the break.
19 But we have taken note, Mr. MacDonald, of the time estimate you
21 The witness will be escorted out of the courtroom.
22 [The witness stands down]
23 JUDGE ORIE: We will resume at quarter past 12.
24 --- Recess taken at 11.54 a.m.
25 --- On resuming at 12.18 p.m.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. MacDonald.
2 MR. MacDONALD: A couple of quick housekeeping matters,
3 Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MR. MacDONALD: I think Your Honour may have misheard when I --
6 just before the break I said I will not be finished in the next couple of
7 minutes rather than I will be.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 MR. MacDONALD: I hope to be finished in under ten minutes, Your
10 Honour, but --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Is a that wishful thinking. Perhaps that's ...
13 MR. MacDONALD: The first of the last two matters, if I -- I
14 forgot to tender a document, that's 31609. That was the excerpt from the
15 Srbac Official Gazette. The witness confirmed at temporary transcript
16 page 38 the date and the establishment, so I seek to tender that.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 MR. IVETIC: No objection, but that was the one where the header
19 was not translated into English. I don't know if Your Honours still had
20 a concern about that.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, well, if the parties agree that it is the 28th
22 of May, 1992, then I would say that there's no urgent need to send it
24 MR. IVETIC: Then I can stipulate on the record.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And the witness testified about it.
1 Madam Registrar, 65 ter 31609 would receive number?
2 THE REGISTRAR: Number P6920, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: P6920 is admitted.
4 MR. MacDONALD: And the --
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Just for the record, the witness clarified that
6 the date is correct, which could have been seen on the B/C/S version.
7 MR. MacDONALD: And finally, the Prosecution would like to marked
8 for identification 65 ter 02366. That is the transcript we were
9 discussing just before the break, the Kupresanin speech, and just the
10 relevant pages, Your Honours. I would put them as pages 75 to 77 in the
11 English and 52 to 53 in the B/C/S. I am aware Your Honour raised the
12 question about verification here and that's why I would seek to mark it
13 for identification pending discussion with the witness.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Ivetic, you know as always, if the Defence
15 feels the need that for contextualisation you would need other pages,
16 that you always can bring this to the attention of the Prosecution and
17 the Chamber so that we don't have to go in two rounds.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But the Prosecution should upload page one so
19 that we know what it is about.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And has it been uploaded separately, the pages
21 you selected, because if not we can reserve a number but we cannot yet
22 MFI it.
23 [Prosecution counsel confer]
24 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
25 MR. MacDONALD: I'm informed by colleagues it is --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 MR. MacDONALD: I'm informed it hasn't been uploaded separately
3 and that's my fault. My apologies, Your Honours. But we would
4 appreciate a number being reserved at this time.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But then you have to already indicate under
6 what new number you would then upload it into e-court. A small A perhaps
7 might do.
8 That would therefore be 02366a for which, Madam Registrar.
9 THE REGISTRAR: The reserved number would be P6921, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you. That number is reserved. Apart
11 from the pages you indicated also the cover page in both languages has to
12 be added.
13 MR. MacDONALD: I'm obliged Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
15 MR. MacDONALD:
16 Q. Mr. Milincic, in paragraph 9 of your statement, you mention a
17 statement by Karadzic comparing nations with flowers and saying that they
18 are best when interwoven. Now that's right, isn't it?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. In actual fact, Mr. Karadzic [Realtime transcript read in error
21 "Krnjajic"] repeatedly offered analogies showing that nations could not
22 live together, didn't he?
23 A. This is a paradox, isn't it? He is saying that the garden is the
24 most beautiful when there is a variety of flowers. How can this question
25 come up now? We have just confirmed that he want this is variegated
1 pattern, so how all of a sudden can they not live together.
2 MR. MacDONALD: Can the Prosecution please have 65 ter number
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: And before we do that, Mr. MacDonald, just check
5 at page 51, line 15, whether it's Mr. Krnjajic or Karadzic you're talking
7 MR. MacDONALD: It is Mr. Karadzic.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
9 MR. MacDONALD: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 It is at page 12 in the English and page 18 in the B/C/S, and I
11 should say this is a record of the 14th Session of the Assembly of
12 Republika Srpska on the 27th of March, 1992.
13 Q. Now, Witness, I believe the second paragraph in the B/C/S --
14 MR. MacDONALD: And it's also the second paragraph in the
16 Q. And it states:
17 "National communities --" my apologies.
18 It states:
19 "I don't want to say that this is something specific to the
20 Balkans. National communities which cannot live together do exist in the
21 middle of Europe. They cannot because they hinder each other's
23 "In the plant world there are plants which cannot grow side by
24 side. They have to be separated to flourish."
25 Can you confirm you see that text for me?
1 A. I was talking about a rally on the 2nd of September, 1990 --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, would you please answer the question. The
3 simple question was is whether the words read by Mr. MacDonald, whether
4 you see them, and then wait for the next question.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can see it.
6 MR. MacDONALD: Can we please go back a page in the English and
7 the B/C/S. My apologies. Two pages in each.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps you're under estimating sometimes the length
9 of the speeches.
10 MR. MacDONALD: Indeed. I believe it's one more page in the
11 B/C/S. Thank you.
12 Q. And we see this is Dr. Radovan Karadzic who's giving this speech.
13 That's right, isn't it, Mr. Milincic.
14 A. I can see this text here. Yes, I can see it.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. MacDonald, for purely practical purposes,
16 I'm also looking at Mr. Ivetic, we always go back. Now, that's fine.
17 But if it undisputed who is speaking, then you just put it to the
18 witness. And if Mr. Ivetic would disagree, then I'm sure that he will
19 jump up and bring this to our attention.
20 Please proceed.
21 MR. MacDONALD: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Q. Mr. Milincic, this is Karadzic using another plant analogy but
23 this time to show that peoples cannot live together, isn't he?
24 A. Yes, that's how it is written here. As for your previous
25 question, that relates to the meet -- the rally in Srbac in 1990, the
1 garden, the flowers, et cetera. So this is a different thing. I was
2 quoting the words from the rally in Srbac. I'm not aware of this because
3 I was not a member of the parliament and I don't know if this is how it
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MR. MacDONALD: Again, Your Honours, the Prosecution would seek
7 to tender the relevant pages. I apologise, again it's not been uploaded
8 separately, that is my fault, but we would like to reserve a number.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. And then you would have to indicate what
10 number -- I take it that we add a small A to the number. Let me have a
11 look. It's 13386a, which will receive.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Reserve number P6922, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: That number is reserved. And please, again, cover
14 page and selection of pages.
15 And, Mr. Ivetic, if there is need for contextualisation we'll
16 hear you from.
17 Please proceed.
18 MR. MacDONALD:
19 Q. Finally, the Prosecution --
20 MR. MacDONALD: I would like 65 ter number 22399a. And this is a
21 short video-clip, Your Honours. And there are both B/C/S and English
22 transcripts that have been given to the booths. The clip is
23 approximately one minute and 50 seconds.
24 JUDGE ORIE: And we have to play it twice.
25 MR. MacDONALD: Indeed, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: We'll play it twice, Mr. Milincic, so therefore it
2 is -- it's for technical reasons. So you have two opportunities to
3 listen to it.
4 Please proceed.
5 [Video-clip played]
6 "[VOICEOVER]: Mr. President, dear members of the Presidency,
7 assemblymen, ladies and gentlemen, dear guests. This is the 21st Session
8 of our assembly and the path that is behind us is so rich that many
9 things occur between two sessions. This is actually the path that
10 gradually brought us to our state, taking us from an artificial state in
11 which we were forcibly held in an artificial creation that is Bosnia and
12 Herzegovina together with our centuries-old foes. It all reminds me of
13 the experiment in which a dog and a cat are held in a box together
14 against their will, or a bad marriage maintained by all sorts of forceful
15 means. It transpired that a dog and a cat can remain in the box together
16 under one condition only, namely, that they lose their natural
17 characteristics and cease to be a dog and a cat. We will remember that
18 we could not be Serbs and live in such a box. I assume that neither the
19 Croats nor the Muslims had an easy time and that they also had to give up
20 their natural identity and culture, but they gave up less, and I don't
21 hold it against them."
22 MR. MacDONALD:
23 Q. Mr. Milincic, this is Karadzic using a dog and cat analogy to
24 show his belief that the ethnicities could not live together, isn't it?
25 A. This poetic language and this metaphor, are you expecting me to
1 say yes or no? He just took a poetic licence and he said what he said.
2 I constantly keep comparing the rally in 1990 and the vision of the
3 future Bosnia-Herzegovina in which we would have been able to live
4 together. That was a few years before. I talked about colourful flowers
5 and the need for the Serbs, Muslims, and Croats to live together, and
6 I [as interpreted] said whoever wants war should ask the Serbian, Muslim,
7 and Croat mothers whether they wanted war, and I received an applause for
8 that. Now you're asking me weather he said this or are you asking me if
9 I agree with this?
10 Q. Witness, Mr. Milincic, firstly I should say you have been
11 recorded on the transcript as saying you talked about colourful flowers
12 and about asking Serbian, Muslim, and Croat mothers, but I believe you
13 meant Karadzic spoke -- Karadzic said those word, didn't he?
14 A. Mm-hm. Yes, that is correct.
15 Q. Now to go back to my question. You bring up in your statement
16 this phrase by Karadzic about a garden being beautiful when it's
17 interwoven with different colours and flowers, and what I'm suggesting to
18 that you is Karadzic said the opposite and what I've shown you and that
19 peoples could not live together. And you accept that's what he said on
20 these other occasions.
21 A. What I heard on the tape, I can confirm that I heard what I
22 heard. It's not up to me to evaluate how his thoughts developed between
23 1990 and 1994 when he said this. So I confirm that I understand what he
24 said in this audio.
25 Q. Well, this is --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. MacDonald, the question whether the witness
2 accepts is that what he said, is the question is this a fraudulent tape
3 or is it a real tape of what the witness said -- of what Mr. Karadzic
4 said? Now, the witness has not been present, at least it has not been
5 established, so it's a rather useless question.
6 This is what Mr. Karadzic apparently said. We see it on the
7 video. Now what apparently you're interested to know is whether the
8 witness having looking at this video, Mr. Milincic, whether you would
9 agree with Mr. MacDonald, that Karadzic used language, perhaps at another
10 moment, which is still in biological terms but is not emphasizing how
11 nice it is to live together, and whether have you any -- first of all,
12 whether you agree with him that that other language was used by
13 Mr. Karadzic and then I take it that the next question would be whether
14 he has any comment on these rather different expressions of thoughts by
15 Mr. Karadzic.
16 So let's first focus on the first question: Do you agree that
17 Mr. Karadzic used language which goes in an entirely different direction
18 at another point in time?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, in that case. But speaking
20 about Srbac, it was always insisted that there should be peace because he
21 said that as far as Srbac goes, there's place for everyone. Now when we
22 speak about Srbac, he always tried, speaking about the Muslims, to have
23 them in Srbac and Kobas and everything else. So it's a different
24 context. He never asked me to do what he is talking about here.
25 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the last part
1 of his answer and slowly. Thank you.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please slowly repeat the last part of your
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Whenever I met President Karadzic,
5 he was always interested to hear about the situation in Srbac, what was
6 going on with the Muslims in Crnaja, it's a village, and Kobas. He
7 warned me if you are afraid, then -- to have 1.000 Serbs as opposed to
8 21.000, then you're not good men and not good people because you in Srbac
9 must preserve all the people you have there.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I therefore understand your explanation is
11 that when he used the flower example, that that was in relation to Srbac,
12 and the cat and the dog --
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's clear --
14 JUDGE ORIE: -- he may have used it for Bosnia-Herzegovina as a
15 whole. Is that --
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was not a deputy of the assembly.
17 I never heard this speech and believe me, or not, this is the first time
18 that I'm hearing it. If you are seeking my opinion, then ...
19 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I asked you to comment on the two different --
20 two rather different expressions of mind by Mr. Karadzic. So if you, in
21 that context, if you could give me your comment, then please do.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that he had a good reason
23 to react as he did here, just as he had reasons to encourage us that we
24 be a garden with all colourful flowers, and the Serbs Croats and the
25 Muslims. That is why he said ask the Serbian, the Muslim, and the Croat
1 mothers if they wanted war.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now can you reconcile the statement about the
3 cats and the dogs, impossible to live in one cage without losing their
4 identity, can you reconcile that with the flowers in Srbac? Because
5 Muslims and Serbs or Croats are, in Srbac, still different groups, not
6 in -- as far as I can understand at this moment, but please help me, not
7 any different from Serbs and Croats and Muslims in Bosnia-Herzegovina as
8 a whole?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Srbac has some specific features.
10 They were both ideological and ethnic conflicts, and this was shown in
11 the last election as well. But let me go back to your question.
12 Probably the chronology of the events, the breakup of Bosnia-Herzegovina,
13 and this severe settling of accounts prompted him to say something and to
14 make a comparison with a cat and dog. Probably at the time he had good
15 arguments to speak as he did, and unfortunately he was telling the truth.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Well, truth or not. But your comment is that
17 talking about the cats and dogs, that was at a later point in time and
18 that may explain the difference, if I understand you well.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's clear.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
21 MR. MacDONALD: I simply seek to tender the video-clip, Your
22 Honours. I will ask for it to be MFI'd just now. We don't have a
23 physical CD with the clip on it, and my apologies for that.
24 JUDGE ORIE: And the transcript in both languages has been
1 Madam Registrar.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Document 22399a receives number P6923,
3 Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Marked for identification.
5 Please proceed.
6 MR. MacDONALD: That concludes my cross-examination,
7 Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
9 Mr. Ivetic, are you ready to re-examine the witness?
10 MR. IVETIC: If this works? Yes, I am, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And so is the microphone, I understand.
12 Please proceed.
13 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Re-examination by Mr. Ivetic:
15 Q. Good day again, sir. I would like to start off by discussing
16 Mr. Ljubomir Stankovic who was discussed in cross-examination. In
17 regards to Mr. Stankovic, can you tell us if you at all took part in the
18 trial that took place against him and which rendered a judgement against
20 A. I don't know that man. I don't know him at all. I may have met
21 him somewhere, but I don't know him. I never had any meeting with him
22 and I never participated in any resolutions. I don't know.
23 Q. Okay. And the Prosecution counsel referred to additional
24 documentation that the Prosecution received about this individual.
25 MR. IVETIC: P3538 is the judgement.
1 Q. And it describes that Mr. Stankovic was actually convicted for
2 the murder of two Muslims, the wounding of two other Muslims, and the
3 wounding of two Serbs. I'd like to take a look at your statement.
4 MR. IVETIC: D783, and page 4 in both versions of the same, and
5 it will be in paragraph 13.
6 Q. And the last bullet point in paragraph 13 talks about the murder
7 and wounding of two Muslims, Bosniaks at Kobas, committed by the same
8 perpetrator who committed the previous came, and it was subsequently
9 discovered that he had in the meantime also wounded two Serb children.
10 Are these the same persons, do you believe, as in the judgement that has
11 been referred to by the Prosecution against Mr. Stankovic?
12 JUDGE ORIE: Is there a dispute about this matter, Mr. Ivetic?
13 Because we heard the witness say earlier that he's not a lawyer, he
14 doesn't know anything, he's -- and that you even had some problems with
15 IK23/92 being put to him claiming that it should be put to him. Now --
16 MR. IVETIC: [Overlapping speakers].
17 JUDGE ORIE: -- is there any dispute about the matter? Because
18 to hear the explanation of the witness who says that he is not very able
19 to interpret legal documents, if you all agree that it's about two
20 Muslims killed at Kobas by Halid Hadziselimovic and the wounding of
21 two -- and two children being wounded, then ...
22 MR. IVETIC: I would be happy to agree if we all can agree that
23 this statement is the same as the -- the recollection in the statement is
24 the same as the recollection in the judgement, that's fine.
25 JUDGE ORIE: I think the question was whether what is stated here
1 in rather abstract terms, whether that reflects what is found in the
3 MR. IVETIC: Correct.
4 JUDGE ORIE: If you agree on that, then we don't have to ask
5 further questions about it.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think I have to correct my Presiding Judge.
7 JUDGE ORIE: That's always possible.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Not two Muslims killed by that person,
9 Halid Hadziselimovic, but by Stankovic.
10 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, yes. I'm sorry, yes. I'm mixing up the victim
12 with the -- with the accused.
13 MR. IVETIC: Accused. I think we all understand each other so
14 that was --
15 JUDGE ORIE: I should be very careful to do that, that -- not so
16 cautious not to do -- to make such a mistake.
17 Is there agreement between the parties that is what is described
18 in the last bullet point, that that is what is found in the judgement of
19 which we just received a number, and I think it was P3538, if my
20 recollection serves me will.
21 MR. IVETIC: 3 --
22 JUDGE ORIE: 5 --
23 MR. IVETIC: Yes, yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: 3538.
25 MR. MacDONALD: Yes, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
2 MR. MacDONALD: The last bullet point refers to that judgement,
3 not the third bullet point in the statement as --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, well, I'm focusing on the last one and there is
5 agreement on that.
6 Please proceed.
7 MR. IVETIC: Then I'd like to move to another topic.
8 Q. 1993 and the speech that you gave in relation to the taking of
9 international personnel as hostages.
10 MR. IVETIC: If we can turn to that again and that's now 02366,
11 page 55 in the B/C/S and 75 in the English. I apologise, I think it's
12 page 65 in the B/C/S. 66 in the B/C/S -- or pardon me. Now I'm all over
13 the place. It should be, I think, the -- it should be ten pages prior in
14 the B/C/S on -- the ERN number 925 at the end.
15 Those are your words.
16 And then that should be at -- I have here listed, page 75 in the
17 English. Is that 75? Then it's not that one. Then it's going to be
18 page 81 in the English perhaps. The prior page in English. Yes. The
19 prior page in English. It should be in the beginning of the -- this is
20 the tail-end of the discussion where Mr. MacDonald focused.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I think we have the right pages now before us, isn't
22 it, about the --
23 MR. IVETIC: The speech actually starts on the prior page in the
25 JUDGE ORIE: In English, yes. But there's no disagreement about
2 MR. IVETIC: Oh, okay.
3 JUDGE ORIE: He said the words --
4 MR. IVETIC: That's fine then.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 MR. IVETIC: Okay.
7 Q. Now, sir, first of all, your statements made to the assembly in
8 1993, were they adopted as an official position of the assembly?
9 A. In response to my desperate thinking, similar to the Kupresanin's
10 speech, it wasn't included in the conclusions. However, seeing that
11 there's a war raging around us, that we were being killed, that there
12 were cease-fires and then again everybody was charging against everyone,
13 and I made analogy about a lamb and a wolf, and I said that lamb was
14 innocent. I also mentioned Homeini, who held American hostages in the
15 American embassy, and I said what are we a waiting for? Let us try and
16 bring some of their people to make them understand us and take us
17 seriously and to show them what they are doing to us.
18 This was a kind of desperate opinion that I presented to the
19 assembly. Later on, the general tried to calm down these feisty
20 discussions. So this fully corresponds to what I said if you put it in
21 the context of the time in which we were guilty a priori, and I can tell
22 you that that "a priori" means "in advance," because I studied that.
23 Q. You made reference to the general trying to calm things down.
24 MR. IVETIC: In fact, the general speaks two pages later in the
25 B/C/S, and it is page, I think, 83, in the English. If we can turn there
1 right now.
2 Q. And, sir, I would ask for you to read slowly General Mladic's
3 entire selection which starts on this page and concludes at the top of
4 the next page in the B/C/S, but first read what's on this page, so we can
5 hear what General Mladic said during this rather heated debate.
6 A. Since this was a crucial session, presidents of municipalities
7 were invited to attend. I happened to be there and I provided my angle
8 of viewing things, and Mr. Mladic took to the floor and said the
10 "I apologise to the deputies, but 30 minutes ago 35 airplanes
11 took of the Kennedy plane carrier and are flying in an unidentified
12 direction. They are not reflected in our radar systems, but they
13 probably head towards Iran. Or, rather, Iraq. Iraq refused to withdraw
14 its rockets to the south of the 35th parallel, and this ultimatum by
15 America, France, and England expired one hour ago. I would not like to
16 influence any decision of the deputies, but I urge you not to appear too
17 heated and too threatening. Let us not create more damage to ourselves
18 than necessary.
19 "Next, if you please, I shall use this opportunity to relate some
20 sad news to you. We are dealing in politics too much at all levels. We
21 become sleepy, we become deadened on the front line, and then
22 unfortunately we had surprises, this one in Kravica which can be
23 connected to our traditional celebrations but also to other problems. We
24 had an unfortunate event today near the Rilici village at Kupres due to
25 the lack of attention of those who were guarding the front line - people,
1 officers, commanders, group commanders - a group of Ustashas made an
2 ambush to a vehicle transporting food on which many civilians are also
3 loaded. They shot from the ambush from Zolja and there were ten
4 casualties among the civilians and soldiers, and eight were wounded.
5 Each Serbian life is more important than any canton, figuratively
6 speaking, or any province. I urge you to protect the people and we shall
7 do this which working and not by talking.
8 "I don't know how we are going to appear at the conference in
9 Geneva because of the situation such as the following. At around 1500
10 hours today an airplane arrived to Sarajevo airport from Turkey, probably
11 with some delegation from Turkey and some Mujahedins, who were most
12 likely going to Kiseljak. Hakijab Turajlic [phoen], vice-president of
13 this faulty government of BH, was in an UNPROFOR car together with
14 Colonel Sartre, a French. Our people stopped and searched the vehicle
15 and one of our soldiers killed this man called Turajlic with six
17 Q. And then on this -- on this page it also says "aplauz."
18 MR. IVETIC: And if we turn to the next page in --
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
20 MR. IVETIC: -- in B/C/S.
21 Q. If you could finish with what General Mladic said to calm the
23 MR. IVETIC: I think it was the next page in B/C/S. On top there
24 is -- there is -- that's fine. That's fine.
25 Q. If you could read the rest of General Mladic's presentation.
1 A. Yes.
2 "Please, please, I ask you not to develop such a climate towards
3 UNPROFOR. There are those who work well too. We shall protest sharply.
4 I ordered that a protest be written and sent to Nambiar. And I told them
5 the last time that the UN and UNPROFOR are not the service or the
6 logistics of Alija Izetbegovic or Franjo Tudjman or ours, but we still
7 have to pay attention, we must have a very, very sober head. I ask you
8 not to let some individual drive us to disaster. That's all and thank
10 Q. Thank you. Now, first of all, do you remember what kind of
11 effect General Mladic's words had on the attendees of this assembly,
12 including yourself?
13 A. Well, then, and also now, given the time distance, I understood
14 in this pyramid that after all that has to be respected. What the person
15 who knows more and who took care of more. I took care of just one
16 particular setting, and the general had all of us in his soul. He had to
17 take care of us and he was calming people down so that our misfortune
18 would not become even greater. Srbac is also grateful for what we lived
19 to see - namely, that we did not go to war - and I am conveying the views
20 of the people of Srbac, conveying their gratitude to the general.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you are not here to present the thoughts of
22 your people. You are here to testify about your personal knowledge about
23 certain events. That's what you are here for. And apparently you have
24 difficulties in understanding that. But wait for the next question that
25 Mr. Ivetic will put to you and then answer that.
1 Are you still with the same subject matter, Mr. Ivetic?
2 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
4 MR. IVETIC:
5 Q. Now, sir, in his speech General Mladic references Kravica. Do
6 you know what had happened on Serb Christmas of January 1993 prior to
7 this assembly that General Mladic is referring to?
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. MacDonald.
9 MR. MacDONALD: Yes, I'd object to that. I'm not sure how that
10 arises from cross-examination, actually.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Well, an opportunity is always given to give the
12 context of a portion of -- presented by you as a meeting, and if for the
13 understanding of the context further questions are put to the witness,
14 then Mr. Ivetic is allowed to do so.
15 Could you briefly explain what happened in Kravica.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, many people think and future
17 analysts will probably say that they were a cause --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Witness --
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- or consequence of Srebrenica.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Witness --
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I mean, a crime was committed.
22 JUDGE ORIE: -- I stop you there. You are not invited to comment
23 on how other people will explain certain situations. You're invited to
24 tell us what you know about what happened in Kravica as referred to
25 during that meeting by General Mladic.
1 Could you please tell us what happened in Kravica, to the extent
2 you know?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard that Muslims committed a
4 crime in Kravica.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Any further details? How many victims, were
6 of what ethnicity?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no. No. No, many victims.
8 Now how many is many? Well, different figures were bandied about.
9 Hundred, thousands. This is an area far away from Srbac. I heard that
10 the Muslims had committed a massacre there.
11 JUDGE ORIE: And the victims were of what ethnicity.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Serb victims, yes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
14 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
15 Q. And was what had happened in Kravica known to yourself and other
16 assembly-persons at the time that the words were uttered at this
18 A. I heard it at the time. I assume that those who were closer to
19 there knew more.
20 Q. Now I'd like to move to a different topic. I would like to talk
21 with you about the mosque in Kobas.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask some --
23 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: -- additional questions in relation to this.
25 Witness, I -- I do understand that Mr. Ivetic asked you questions
1 about what Mr. Mladic said, so as -- that he would have calmed down,
2 where you had suggested that taking of hostages might be a weapon. I'm,
3 in that respect, a bit confused because from what you read from this
4 transcript, the very last portion says, I ask you not to develop such
5 climate towards the UNPROFOR, et cetera, that's certainly calming done.
6 And the paragraph before that, Mr. Mladic refers to Mr. Turajlic
7 being, if I read it well, just being executed, which is met with
8 applause. So I'm a bit confused as to what is the calming down portion
9 and where it is not calming down at all but it seems to be happy about a
10 violent event.
11 Could you tell us how we have to understand this in this context?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it's a logical question, a
13 logical line of thought.
14 The general said that an incident had occurred, a stupid thing,
15 and a man was killed. And the deputies did what they did. It's not that
16 the general instigated them. He said we are creating incidents, here is
17 this most recent case, he submitted this information, and applause
18 followed. Masses, a gathering of people, who are hurt. They seek an
19 adequate measure. That is the psychology of the masses at a moment like
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I now better understand that when he referred
22 to the incident where Mr. Turaljic was killed, that he used that as a
23 trigger to calm everyone down and say this is not what should happen.
24 Now I better understand the context. Thank you.
25 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
2 MR. IVETIC:
3 Q. And let me just for sake of -- of clarity, since I think the
4 Kupresanin speech is also in this assembly before General Mladic's
5 speech, was the speech of Mr. Kupresanin adopted as official policy by
6 the assembly?
7 A. No, no, no, no. It was not adopted in the conclusions or it
8 wasn't in the record. He is a patriot who likes strong language, but he
9 is a person who helped many Muslims as well. But again he gets carried
10 away with a historic mission and then he says what he says.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, let me stop you there.
12 Mr. MacDonald, did you ask these questions suggesting that this
13 was formally adopted or was that you wanted to highlight the attitude of
14 the speakers.
15 MR. MacDONALD: It was just the attitude of the speakers,
16 Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
18 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
19 Q. Now I would like to talk about the mosque in Kobas that
20 Mr. MacDonald asked you about. First, can you tell us how the fire in
21 the mosque was reported and by whom?
22 A. In Kobas we had a police check-point, and during the night the
23 police informed the firemen in Srbac, telling them that the mosque was on
24 fire. I brought the duty book last time. The firemen raced there but
25 that is 20 kilometres away from Srbac. Unfortunately, it was too late.
1 The mosque was mainly made of wood.
2 On the following day, a municipal commission went out to
3 investigate with the police and an investigating judge and they compiled
4 a record. To this day it is unknown how it was that the mosque was set
5 on fire. There are three versions. I can tell you about that.
6 Q. I think you already mentioned the three versions.
7 JUDGE ORIE: You've told us already.
8 Mr. Ivetic --
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
10 JUDGE ORIE: -- from what I understand there was a clear
11 suggestion in the questions by Mr. MacDonald that someone had put the
12 mosque on fire, and apart from that not much more is there. The witness
13 has explained that there are various potential causes of fire, lightning
14 or whatever other cause, and that the perpetrators were never identified.
15 That seems to be the situation. And Mr. MacDonald has not -- I think not
16 presented any evidence which contradicts or challenges this uncertainty.
17 MR. IVETIC: I agree, Your Honour, but the Prosecution's case as
18 presented is that mosques were intentionally torched as a policy, and I'm
19 suggesting that the reaction of the municipality goes counter to that,
20 and that's why I'm leading this evidence, to counter any inference from
21 the Prosecution leading this information that this mosque was
22 intentionally torched as part of an official policy of the people that
23 were in power in the municipality.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 Mr. MacDonald, was that underlying your questions?
1 MR. MacDONALD: Well, there certainly is an aspect of the
2 Prosecution case that mosques were targeted, Your Honour. Yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But the evidence here has as given by the
4 witness does not show even that it was put on fire by anyone or --
5 because you didn't ask any further questions where the witness said I
6 don't know whether persons are to be blamed for it or whether it's
7 lightning or whether -- it's what caused the fire.
8 MR. MacDONALD: The Prosecution accepts the evidence of the
9 witness as the mosque was on fire and that the perpetrators, if there
10 were any, were unidentified.
11 JUDGE ORIE: So there's nothing.
12 Mr. Ivetic, so for this specific instance the Prosecution, more
13 or less, concedes that the cause of fire has not been established, at
14 least not through this witness, and also not that -- of course, if you
15 don't even know that, of course you can't even find perpetrators because
16 you don't know whether there are any perpetrators. That seems to be the
17 present situation.
18 If there's any further need specifically to deal with the matter,
19 then please proceed but in the understanding of this situation.
20 Please proceed.
21 MR. IVETIC: I would then would go to my next point, but I see
22 we're at the time for the break. I have approximately three to four
23 questions. I leave it to Your Honours whether --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Well, we left it last time in the hands of
25 Mr. Mladic and I'm inclined to do the same now. Three to four questions.
1 [Defence counsel confer]
2 MR. IVETIC: I believe my client is asking for the break to be
3 taken, so I apologise.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Then we take the break now. And now I didn't
5 misunderstand you and what is follow after the break, Mr. Ivetic, where I
6 did misunderstand Mr. MacDonald.
7 We take a break and we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes.
8 [The witness stands down]
9 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at 25 minutes to 2.00.
10 --- Recess taken at 1.16 p.m.
11 --- On resuming at 1.37 p.m.
12 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, while we wait for the witness, I would
13 ask that the two pages in the English and the one page in the -- pardon
14 me, the two pages in the B/C/S that reflect General Mladic 's comments be
15 included in what has now been marked as P6921 MFI. That according to my
16 information should be pages 66 and 67 in the B/C/S and 83 through 84 in
17 the English.
18 JUDGE ORIE: I think it was not MFI'd yet but it was -- the
19 number was reserved --
20 MR. IVETIC: Reserved.
21 JUDGE ORIE: -- for it. And then if you would include that in
22 your A version of the 65 ter number, Mr. MacDonald, then we have the
23 contextualisation which the Defence seeks and which is, of course,
25 MR. MacDONALD: [Microphone not activated].
1 [The witness takes the stand]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic.
3 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
4 Q. Mr. Milincic, at temporary transcript page 48 today, you were
5 asked about paragraph 17 of your statement and the 22.000 Muslims and
6 Croats that transferred through Srbac on their way to Croatia. The
7 question I want to ask you is: Who organised or was involved in this
8 transfer of persons to Croatia?
9 A. On the basis of an agreement of Mr. Sama Ruga [phoen], president
10 of the ICRC, and the vice-president of Republika Srpska, Nikola Koljevic,
11 Srbac Davor was the safest area and it was inaugurated as the place where
12 Croats and Muslims would be reunified with their families because of what
13 was happening in the Krajina. In 1995 when the Knin Krajina fell, when
14 Knin fell, when that stampede of Serbs went towards Serbia through
15 Banja Luka, et cetera, then Muslims and Croats were being reunited with
16 their families, and then Srbac Davor was the most secure and safe place
17 where people could cross over, and the authorities of Davor and the
18 authorities of Srbac ensured their safety from different provocations in
19 the meantime as they were travelling from one place to another. They
20 didn't really want to have any kind of homeless people attacking them,
21 looting, and so on. About 20.000 Croats crossed over to Croatia through
22 Srbac and Davor.
23 Q. Do you personally know of any Croats or Muslim families from
24 Srbac that left during this time?
25 A. No. From Srbac and Kobasi? Well, I know that the hodza
1 personally came to see me. He's the religious leader of the Muslims, if
2 I can put it that way. He wanted to go see his daughter in Croatia, and
3 we made sure that he could do it in a safe way. Maybe there were two or
4 three Croat families from Srbac itself. However, the 22.000 that were on
5 the move were from different municipalities. I don't know. Croat
6 municipalities. And then out there, towards the Krajina. I mean, from
7 the Krajina, yes, the Knin Krajina, Glamoc, Grahovo. Towards Banja Luka,
8 Mrkonjic, around Gradiska, these Muslim and Croat villages.
9 Many spent the night in Srbac. They couldn't be transported on
10 that day because approval had to be given for each and every family from
11 the Croat authorities. In order for them to be able to cross over into
12 Croatia, they had to prove that they had someone in Croatia. It's a
13 painstaking procedure, a tortured procedure. It went on for about a
15 Q. You mentioned -- I believe you used the word "stampede" of Serbs
16 leaving Knin. During that time-period were there persons known to you
17 who left Srbac and were of non-Serb ethnicity who were worried about the
18 influx of these refugees from Knin?
19 A. In Kobas, in Srbac, in Crnaja, Povelic there were non-Serbs who
20 had agreed to cross over to Croatia briefly until things are arranged.
21 Non-Serbs from the municipalities that we mentioned. I cannot identify
22 them individually. This was dramatic dynamics, painful, emotional. For
23 example, the Croat authorities would allow one spouse to cross over and
24 not the other one, and then there would be a drama, and then we'd have to
25 keep them in Srbac until their papers were in order. The municipality
1 really exhibited something that we were commended for later on. People
2 who had crossed over. I have to say that from Banja Luka the wife of a
3 Serb soldier had left with these refugees. They were saying that she
4 should be frightened, run away, not with Croats. She went back to
5 Banja Luka. It was a stampede. People were so afraid.
6 Q. And you say that --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, I'm totally lost why in the statement,
8 when the 22.000 persons are mentioned in paragraph 17, it says, "at the
9 same time." Now all that precedes refers to, well, if there is any date
10 it's 1992, and now I do understand from the answer that we are talking
11 about 1995.
12 MR. IVETIC: That's correct.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Which is, of course, is totally confusing me. If at
14 paragraph 15 we are talking about 1992 and even 17, without any further
15 time reference, we read "at the same time," then I'm really surprised to
16 end up in 1995 where only in paragraph 18 reference is made to the period
17 from 1992 to 1995. If you want us to understand all this, then take an
18 approach which allows us to understand it.
19 MR. IVETIC: I can see that the statement does not have the
20 precise date nor the ethnicity of the people identified. I hope that we
21 now have on the record that information. I had one more question and I
22 have to scroll back up to --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Do we now understand that the 22.000 persons
24 transfer of the population from BiH to the Republic of Croatia, that that
25 is all 1995?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All the time. All the time less.
2 But this was that much. In July, August.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. yes. Now, I also think I understood from
4 your answers that these were refugees coming from the Krajina, Serb
5 refugees coming from the Krajina region in Croatia? Or Croatian
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We have two types. Serbs went to
8 Serbia through Srbac-Kobas-Derventa, towards the highway up there,
9 Bijeljina, all of that; whereas, the Croats went through Srbac to
10 Croatia. Croat refugees went to Srbac and Davor, whereas the Serb
11 refugees continued through Kobasi towards Bijeljina.
12 JUDGE ORIE: So this then covers two streams of refugees: Serb
13 refugees coming from Croatia and moving on to Serbia, if I understand you
14 well, and Croatian refugees coming from Bosnia and Herzegovina moving to
15 Croatia. Is that well understood?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Then, of course, the reference to the population
18 from BiH in paragraph 17 is not very clear because these are two entirely
19 different groups of people. So, therefore, part of the confusion may
20 have been removed. There's still some astonishment what is presented in
21 paragraph 17 and how it is presented.
22 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
23 MR. IVETIC:
24 Q. Sir, I wanted to ask you in response to one of my prior questions
25 at page 74, line 17 and onwards, you said:
1 "In Kobas, in Srbac, in Crnaja, Povelic, there were non-Serbs who
2 had agreed to cross" --
3 A. Crnaja, yes.
4 Q. "... there were non-Serbs who had agreed to cross over to Croatia
5 briefly until things are arranged."
6 How briefly? When did these people return, if they returned?
7 A. Some did not return. Some. Younger people. A smaller number.
8 The rest mostly returned in 1995, Dayton. They went to their homes,
9 their land. Some returned after ten or two or three days, and we had
10 huge problems on account of that. Why are they leaving? Why are they
11 coming back? Spies? You know how it goes.
12 Q. Thank you, sir. On behalf of my client and the rest of my team I
13 thank you for your answers to my questions.
14 MR. IVETIC: That completes my re-direct examination,
15 Your Honours.
16 Questioned by the Court:
17 JUDGE ORIE: Before we give an opportunity for further questions
18 to the Prosecution, I have one question for you.
19 Earlier it turned out that you had no direct knowledge of the
20 number of non-Serbs that had left Srbac, where you said you knew about 60
21 persons, and then you later said 60 families, and then the statistics
22 gave even --
23 A. Families, yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Well, when I first raised the issue --
25 A. Yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: -- you didn't correct me at all, talking about
2 persons, but you later said it's about families, but you had no knowledge
3 about that.
4 Where does your knowledge come exactly from that all those who
5 had left had returned to their property? Could you tell us what the
6 basis of that statement is, the basis of your knowledge of that.
7 A. Their houses? Refugees from Vozuca moved into their houses,
8 Serbs from there, a number of them. Fifteen, twenty families, I don't
9 know exactly. When Bosniak Muslims returned, they were moved out --
10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could all the other
11 microphones please be switched off. Thank you.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was a problem for the
13 municipality, but I was no longer the number one person in the
14 municipality. But new buildings were built and that was resolved and
15 everybody returned to their homes that temporarily were taken over by
17 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any documentation about this happening,
18 that everyone finally returned to their own property?
19 A. We had a Department for Refugees in Srbac, and I think that it
20 was the first one in all of Bosnia-Herzegovina to complete its job. They
21 had nothing else to do because everybody had returned. I think that that
22 department worked for a year. And they actually had all these people
23 return to their homes that they had left temporarily. Mr. Cvijanovic had
24 nothing left to do. He moved onto another job because property had been
25 returned 100 per cent.
1 JUDGE ORIE: So all the new construction immediately after the
2 war was finished was completed in one year so as to allow all non-Serbs
3 to return to their property. Is that how I have to understand it?
4 A. Maybe a bit more than a year. There is an entire neighbourhood
5 of Serbs from Vozuca who were first staying in Bosniak houses and then
6 later on through international organisations a settlement was built for
7 them. This was very rapid construction. And it went on for about a year
8 and a half.
9 JUDGE ORIE: In order to be able to -- for the Chamber to assess
10 the reliability of this portion of the evidence, if the parties would
11 have any documentation on the return of property to non-Serbs that had
12 left Srbac, the Chamber would like to be informed.
13 I have no further questions.
14 Any questions, Mr. MacDonald?
15 MR. MacDONALD: Just one topic, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 Further cross-examination by Mr. MacDonald:
18 Q. Mr. Milincic, I'd like to go back to this number 22.000 people
19 who went from Srbac to Davor. I had understood you to confirm that all
20 22.000 were non-Serbs, Muslims or Croats primarily. Is that correct or
21 not correct?
22 A. Yes, yes. Via Davor, yes. But those who went on towards Serbia,
23 I don't know.
24 Q. The 22.000 people, were they Muslims and Croats?
25 A. And Croats. They were from the municipalities between Krajina,
1 Knin, all the way to Banja Luka. They crossed over legally, they were
2 reunited with their families until the end of the operations, and after
3 it's finished they returned.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This was not the question. Were all these 22.000
5 Muslims and Croats?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have any personal information about the
9 reunification with the families which suggests that the families of the
10 Muslims were already in Croatia?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps I heard it on the street.
12 But as I said, I was no longer a president -- the president after 1997,
13 and I learned that from people I met in the streets; my former pupils,
14 their parents, et cetera. But Srbac is a very unique example and a very
15 positive example, even though there were incidents that we mentioned
17 JUDGE ORIE: But I -- I therefore do understand that whether they
18 were reunified with their families is just something you heard in the
19 streets and you have no personal knowledge about at all.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I used to see and I still see
21 people involved in legislature and judicial systems. People are coming
22 from Kobas and working in cafe. If you go to Kobas, you see a new
23 mosque. People approach me to greet me. These are unofficial
24 manifestations, though, but as a person, this is a kind of proof to me
25 that we were not that evil.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Witness, you said the transfer of the 22.000
2 people happened in 1995. You remained in your post until 1997.
3 During -- during your time-period, when you have been in the municipal
4 administration, did you receive any information to that -- in that
5 respect --
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- about the -- about the reunification of these
8 transferred people with their families.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Kobas is the most outstanding
10 example in that. If there was 60 families, most of them --
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I'm not talking -- sorry, I'm not talking about
12 Kobas and 60 people or families. I'm talking about the 22.000
13 transferred people. That happened --
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, now I understand.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That happened during your term of office. Did
16 you receive any official information about the reunification of these
17 people with their families?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We were just a point of transit.
19 We were just in charge of ensuring their safe crossing over.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I personally knew some people, but
22 as for the others, I don't know.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
24 MR. MacDONALD: Nothing further, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: No further.
1 Mr. Milincic, this concludes your evidence. I'd like to thank
2 you very much for coming to The Hague and for having answered the
3 questions, questions put to you by the parties, questions put to you by
4 the Bench, and I wish you a safe return home again. You may follow the
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 [The witness withdrew]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Is the Defence ready to call its next witness?
9 MR. IVETIC: We are, Your Honours. It is Mr. Dusko Corokalo.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Could the -- well, the usher is -- has left the
11 courtroom, so I hope that he'll bring the next witness with him upon
13 Yes, Mr. MacDonald.
14 MR. MacDONALD: Just two small housekeeping matter, Your Honour.
15 I'm informed by my colleague that 65 ter number 13386A, which was
16 provisionally marked as P06922, is now available in e-court. I would ask
17 that be admitted.
18 JUDGE ORIE: I'm very bad at numbers. Could you remind me of
19 what this one was?
20 MR. MacDONALD: That is the second-last document we looked at.
21 It is a Karadzic -- it is a transcript from the 24th -- sorry from the
22 14th Session of the RS Assembly in March 1992 and it is a speech of
23 Karadzic --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 MR. MacDONALD: -- Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: And there's no need for further context pages,
2 Mr. Ivetic.
3 MR. IVETIC: On that one, no.
4 JUDGE ORIE: On that one, no.
5 MR. MacDONALD: Yes, Your Honour. With regard to --
6 JUDGE ORIE: And that's the cover page is included now. So then
7 before you continue, I take it that you would like to have it admitted,
8 isn't it?
9 MR. MacDONALD: Indeed, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 Madam Registrar, P6922 is admitted into evidence.
12 The next one, Mr. MacDonald.
13 MR. MacDONALD: With regard to 65 ter number 02366A, I know that
14 my friend asked for further pages with regard to context.
15 [The witness entered court]
16 MR. MacDONALD: From the transcript I saw he asked for pages 66
17 and 67. Unfortunately in the B/C/S, mine only goes to page 66. Just to
18 flag that up for him.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. This has to be resolved before we can decide
20 any further on the matter. We'll not, at this moment, partially admit.
21 Let's wait until this has been resolved and then we'll decide on the
23 MR. MacDONALD: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 Good afternoon, Mr. Corokalo. Before you give evidence, the
1 Rules require that you make a solemn declaration. The text is now handed
2 out to you. May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
4 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
5 WITNESS: DUSKO COROKALO
6 [Witness answered through interpreter]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated.
8 Mr. Corokalo, you'll first be examined by Mr. Ivetic. You'll
9 find him to your left. Mr. Ivetic is a counsel for -- is a member of the
10 Defence team of Mr. Mladic.
11 Mr. Ivetic, please proceed.
12 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
13 Examination by Mr. Ivetic:
14 Q. Good day, sir. I would ask that you first state your full name
15 for purposes of the record.
16 A. My name is Dusko Corokalo.
17 Q. I would ask that we call up 65 ter number 1D01676 in e-court.
18 JUDGE ORIE: While we're waiting for that to come up, two or
19 three words were already sufficient for me, Mr. Corokalo, so fear that
20 are you a quick speaker. Could you please try to slowly speak so that
21 the interpreters have an opportunity to interpret what you say.
22 Please proceed.
23 MR. IVETIC:
24 Q. Sir, we now have before us a statement. Could you tell us whose
25 signature is on the bottom of the first page.
1 A. This is my signature.
2 Q. And if we turn to the last page of the document in the B/C/S
3 original, we see here another signature and a date. Could you tell us
4 whose signature is visible on this page.
5 A. This is also my signature.
6 Q. Sir, after signing this statement, did you have a chance to
7 review the same in the Serbian language to confirm if everything is
8 correctly recorded therein?
9 A. Yes, I did.
10 Q. And is everything correctly recorded therein?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Sir, if I were to ask you today questions arising out of the same
13 facts as in your statement, would your answers to those questions today
14 be the same, in substance, as in your statement?
15 A. Absolutely.
16 Q. You have taken a solemn declaration today to tell the truth.
17 Does that mean that we can conclude the answers as written in the
18 statement are truthful in nature?
19 A. Yes.
20 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I would tender 1D01676 into evidence.
21 There are no associated exhibits.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jeremy, you're playing from the second line.
23 MR. JEREMY: I am, Your Honours, and good afternoon to you. I
24 have no objection to the statement.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D1676 receives number D785,
2 Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: D785 is admitted.
4 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, at this time I would read the public
5 summary of the statement.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Please do.
7 MR. IVETIC: The witness, Dusko Corokalo, was a reserve second
8 lieutenant in the command of the 6th Sana Brigade of the VRS.
9 In March 1992, he personally saw armed Muslim formations of the
10 Patriotic League and Green Berets. Representatives of the SDA, the HDZ,
11 and SDS agreed in the municipal assembly to peacefully split Sanski Most
12 and the SJB police into two parts. However, the Muslims attacked and
13 took over the municipal building. After negotiations failed, the Serbs
14 took back the building with no casualties on either side.
15 He recalls a well armed company of the Muslim army located in the
16 area of Golaja and that the inhabitants of Hrustovo and Vrhpolje were
17 supplying this formation.
18 Brigade Chief of Staff Brajic negotiated the transfer of this
19 Muslim formation to Bihac with their weapons in exchange for captured
20 Serb soldiers.
21 There was an armed Muslim group in the central part of
22 Sanski Most called Mahala, which fought against the Serbs.
23 Until the arrival of Arkan in 1995, there were several
24 neighbourhoods with more than 1.000 inhabitants of Muslim and Croat
25 ethnicity in Sanski Most. Arkan and his men did harm to these non-Serbs
1 and also arrested and mistreated Serb army members.
2 That completes the public summary.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic. We have five minutes left
4 for your first questions. If you have any.
5 MR. IVETIC: I do. I do. I'll try to make the most of it.
6 Q. If we can look at page 4 in both versions of your statement, I
7 would like do discussion paragraph 13 with you.
8 Sir, in this paragraph you describe the interviews which you
9 conducted of able-bodied males from Hrustovo and Vrhpolje. Can you tell
10 us what happened to the people after you finished interviewing them.
11 A. I participated in the screening or the questioning of people
12 because the logistics wanted to have certain number of people. I and
13 another two co-workers of mine worked on that. We never left the room,
14 and therefore I don't know what happened to them afterwards, where they
15 went, and so on.
16 Q. Okay. Now, chronologically speaking, what had happened before in
17 this area prior to these interviews being taken?
18 A. Our task was to collect additional information on the basis of
19 intelligence that we already had. There were some names, Muslim names
20 mentioned, and we tried to get more information whether there were more
21 people of that kind in the logistics and to find out whether there were
22 any remaining armed formations.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, could I seek clarification of one of the
24 previous answers.
25 You were asked what happened to the people after you had finished
1 interviewing them. You said you didn't -- never left the room, so
2 therefore you wouldn't know. But how did they leave the room? Were they
3 escorted out, and if so by whom; or did you just say, Well, please go
4 home and they left the room or the premises without any further
5 supervision or escort.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely so. They would leave the
7 room. During those two days, I don't know what happened with them
8 afterwards and whether there were any subsequent interventions and what
9 kind of interventions.
10 JUDGE ORIE: And how did they come to your interview room? Were
11 they escorted in or did you ...
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I suppose that somebody had
13 escorted them. Somebody should have done that. I don't know the names
14 of those people. Those were completely different people that had nothing
15 to do with our task, and we were tasked with conducting interrogations.
16 Nothing else.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Now, whether they were escorted out, you had no idea
18 either, had you, or did you have an idea?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I suppose. I suppose that since
20 they were in some of the rooms in the school that they were sent back to
21 these very same rooms again, but what happened next, I don't know.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you assumed that there were escorted in and
23 escorted out of the room which you never left.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
25 JUDGE ORIE: What does "no" mean in this -- do you disagree with
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I mean, I never left the room.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you assumed that they were escorted in and
4 escorted out, but you didn't know what happened after the door -- behind
5 the doors from which they entered and by which they left. Is that well
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely so.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
9 Mr. Ivetic, please proceed.
10 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, we're --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Well, yes, we are at the time.
12 Witness, we will adjourn for the day and I'd like to instruct you
13 that you should not speak with anyone or communicate in any other way
14 with whomever about your testimony, whether that's testimony you've given
15 today or whether that is testimony still to be given tomorrow. If that
16 is clear to you, we would like to see you back tomorrow morning at 9.30,
17 although tomorrow morning you'll find most likely only two Judges here
18 instead of three.
19 You may now follow the usher.
20 [The witness stands down]
21 JUDGE ORIE: We will adjourn for the day, and if I say "we
22 resume," I'd say the hearing of the case will resume tomorrow, the 18th
23 of November, 2014, in this same courtroom, I, at 9.30 in the morning. At
24 least it's my expectations that my colleagues will decide that it's in
25 the interests of justice to continue to hear the case, whereas I am not
1 available tomorrow for urgent personal reasons.
2 We adjourn.
3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.17 p.m.,
4 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 18th day of
5 November, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.