1 Thursday, 27 November 2014
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.36 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is the case
8 number IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 Mr. Lukic, the Chamber was informed that there was a preliminary
11 matter to be raised and I do understand that it will be you, Mr. Ivetic,
12 who will deal with it.
13 MR. IVETIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Yes, that's correct.
14 I rise in relation to a request Your Honours made of the Defence
15 a few days ago when giving the oral decision on the associated exhibits
16 of Witness Radojcic wherein you inquired about two issues arising in
17 relation to some associate exhibits.
18 The first is in relation to 1D2153 and the Prosecution's request
19 to tender that document which had been withdrawn by the Defence. We have
20 no objection to the Prosecution tendering that document and it receiving
21 a Prosecution exhibit number.
22 In relation to 1D2149 and 1D2172, Your Honours' observations were
23 correct, that they are indeed the same document. And we would thus ask
24 that 1D2149 and its accompanying translation be entered into evidence.
25 And we put on the record now that any reference in the statement of Mr.
1 Radojcic, which is Exhibit D535, that points to associated exhibit 1D2172
2 be understood to refer to 1D2149 and the Defence exhibit number that that
3 associated exhibit has or will receive. And that's all. Thank you,
4 Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.
6 Madam Registrar, has 1D2153 already received a P number? I don't
7 think so. Could you please assign a number.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D2153 receives number P6955,
9 Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: P6955 is admitted into evidence.
11 As far as the other exhibits are concerned, I think we -- you
12 would prepare a list or have we dealt with them already?
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Well, then, 1D2149 would receive what D number,
15 Madam Registrar?
16 THE REGISTRAR: Number D828, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
18 I think that we have a written decision in relation to all the
19 other Radojcic associated exhibits. Or it was an oral -- yes. I read
20 it. I now remember that I read all the long lists of numbers. That's
21 right. And these were still open. It's now clear on my mind again.
22 Having dealt with this, I would like to briefly deal with two
23 matters before we resume.
24 The first is the communication about the Dobrovoljacka Street
25 incident. On the 1st of September of this year, the Chamber asked the
1 Prosecution to inquire as to whether any audio recordings or written
2 transcripts of communications preceding the Dobrovoljacka Street incident
3 existed. I refer you to transcript pages 25004 to 25006.
4 My transcript stopped running. I do understand that we have to
5 restart the ...
6 Mr. Mladic, your voice becomes audible.
7 I see that the transcript is running again. Therefore, I'll
8 resume where we stopped.
9 The Chamber asked -- Mr. -- the Chamber asked the Prosecution to
10 inquire as to whether any audio recordings or written transcripts of
11 communications preceding the Dobrovoljacka Street incident existed, and I
12 refer to transcript pages 25004 to 25006.
13 The Chamber puts on the record that on the 29th of October, the
14 Prosecution, through an informal communication, advised the Chamber that
15 they had, although limited, information that there may be an audio
16 recording held in the military court in Belgrade. This is hereby put on
17 the record.
18 Will further attempts be made to obtain a copy, if it is there,
19 is my question to the Prosecution.
20 MR. TIEGER: Mr. President, I have no specific knowledge about
21 whether or not such efforts are underway. If that's the Court's request,
22 of course we can undertake that.
23 JUDGE ORIE: We'll come back to this very soon, whether and with
24 what -- how zealous we want this matter to be pursued.
25 Then we move briefly into private session.
1 [Private session]
11 Page 28950 redacted. Private session.
5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
8 Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
9 Mr. Lukic, I think you said 15 to 20 minutes and then I said
10 15 -- well, at least a limited number of minutes remains.
11 MR. LUKIC: I'm aware of the time. Only I'm not sure that I
12 would be able to finish everything in that short period of time. I'll
13 try my best, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: That's appreciated.
15 MR. LUKIC: And we can even save time before the witness comes
16 in. I would like to call P3961.
17 [The witness takes the stand]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Mandic.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mandic, before we continue, I'd like remind you
21 that you are still bound by the solemn declaration that you'll speak the
22 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Mr. Lukic will now
23 continue his re-examination.
24 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 WITNESS: BOSKO MANDIC [Resumed]
1 [Witness answered through interpreter]
2 Re-examination by Mr. Lukic: [Continued]
3 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Mandic.
4 A. Good morning.
5 Q. I have already called up a document and it's on your screen.
6 It's called: "Instructions on the Establishment, Composition, and Tasks
7 of the Local Crisis Staffs in the Prijedor Municipality." You see the
8 title, don't you?
9 A. Yes.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Please let us take a look at the
11 second page in both versions.
12 Q. Paragraph 5 lists these local Crisis Staffs that are to be set up
13 in the Prijedor municipality. We see three in B/C/S. In the English
14 version we see the first one.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And then let us move on to the next
16 page, page 3 in English. [In English] In B/C/S, too.
17 Q. [Interpretation] So in the document we see nine local
18 Crisis Staffs in the territory of the municipality of Prijedor. Do you
19 know or did you know at the time that there were these nine local
20 Crisis Staffs?
21 A. Yes, yes.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] D827, could we now please take a look
23 at that. This is Official Gazette number 2 of the municipality of
24 Prijedor. We need page 5 in B/C/S and page 11 in English.
25 Q. Please take a look at number 22.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It's towards the bottom of the page
2 in the B/C/S version and also in the English version. We'll be needing
3 the next page in English now to see what kind of order this is.
4 Q. We see that something is being prohibited to the Crisis Staff.
5 [In English] Of Serbian TO.
6 [Interpretation] At the time were you aware of the existence of
7 the Crisis Staff of the Serb Territorial Defence?
8 A. Only if this is the logistics staff that supplied the collection
9 centre of Trnopolje.
10 Q. Yes, it was within that.
11 A. Yes. It was in this neighbourhood in Prijedor.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We did not hear the name
13 of the neighbourhood.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Cirkin Polje.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Were you a member of any one of these nine local staffs or of
18 this Crisis Staff of the Serb TO?
19 A. Well, in my local commune, Tukovi, that's the executive organ. I
20 was a member. And as such, I was certainly transferred if a Crisis Staff
21 was established.
22 Q. All right. Do you know whether there were Crisis Staffs at the
23 time in different companies?
24 A. Well, such attempts were made. However, we asked for this to be
25 abolished and to have only one Crisis Staff at the level of the
1 municipality, that it wasn't necessary to have other Crisis Staffs
2 established. Quite simply, they act as a hindrance in the functioning of
4 Q. So in the territory of the municipality of Prijedor, were there
5 many Crisis Staffs at that time?
6 A. No, there was one Crisis Staff, the main one. I mean, what does
7 "many" mean? I don't understand your question.
8 Q. Well, we saw just now --
9 A. Well, the local ones, yes. But those are local staffs. They are
10 not Crisis Staffs. They are subordinated to the Crisis Staff of the
11 municipality of Prijedor, and it also says in the instructions why it was
12 that they had been established.
13 Q. In your statement in actual fact you did not testify about any
14 one of these Crisis Staffs. You only testified about the Crisis Staff,
15 the main one that you were a member of?
16 A. Yes, I think so.
17 Q. Now that we're on this document -- actually, we'll have to go
18 back to this.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] P6948.
20 Q. I'll have to show that to you first. You remember this decision
21 that you discussed with the Prosecutor yesterday?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Please remember the date, the 22nd of June, 1992.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let us take a look at the last page.
25 Q. This is a letter of the Crisis Staff of the 23rd of June, 1992,
1 where it says that this decision is being forwarded for implementation.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. In response to the Prosecutor's question yesterday, on
4 transcript page 28872, in line 6, when you were asked whether this had
5 been implemented, you said that -- you said the following:
6 "We did not blindly implement this order."
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We will now have to go back to D827.
8 We are coming back to the Official Gazette of Prijedor municipality,
9 issue 2/92. In the B/C/S version we need page 43 and in English 98.
10 Q. You remember the date, 22nd June. Under number 116 in B/C/S, and
11 that's the document we see in English, it says:
12 "The Crisis Staff of Prijedor municipality at its session held on
13 23rd June 1992," that means on the next day, "from that decision of the
14 Crisis Staff of ARK Krajina," that is to say, the day when that decision
15 was forwarded for enforcement, "on this day the Crisis Staff of Prijedor
17 "The Crisis Staff of Prijedor does not accept and considers null
18 and void all decisions by the Crisis Staff of ARK Krajina taken before
19 22nd June 1992."
20 Do you remember --
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. -- that the Crisis Staff of Prijedor refused to implement the
23 decisions of the Crisis Staff of ARK adopted before 22nd June?
24 A. Yes, that decision was made at one session of the Crisis Staff,
25 and one of the reasons that was stated was that there were no personnel
1 from Prijedor on the ARK Crisis Staff of Krajina, and also the provision
2 that required all non-Serbs to be dismissed from senior positions. We
3 could not accept that and we had to adopt this type of conclusion.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let us look at page 44 in B/C/S and
5 page 101 in English. Let us look at number 119.
6 Q. Two days later, on 25 June 1992, the Crisis Staff of Prijedor
7 municipality adopts the conclusion that the Prijedor municipal
8 Crisis Staff shall not observe any enactments adopted by the government
9 of the Autonomous Region of Krajina. So this is for the future. Do you
10 remember this conclusion?
11 A. Yes, I believe Kovacevic and another gentleman went for talks and
12 adopted this conclusion in order to drive home some sense to the
13 government of the Autonomous Region of Krajina.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now look at P6952.
15 Q. This is a document of the CSB. And my question had to do with
16 the contribution of Simo Miskovic regarding the Assembly of the
17 Republika Srpska held on 29 May 1992, relative to your claim that
18 communication was difficult until the opening of the corridor. You said
19 the corridor was opened on a holiday, 28th of May. Does the corridor
20 have anything to do with travel and the axis to Banja Luka from Prijedor?
21 A. Since Kozarac was engulfed in combat, we mainly took a bypass to
22 Banja Luka via Maricka and other villages, to Omarska and on to
23 Banja Luka. It was not advisable to travel via this direct road because
24 there was still groups roaming around that area. Now, whether the police
25 went there or not, I can't remember. All I remember was that it was
1 risky to travel and we took a roundabout way via these villages.
2 Q. Thank you. My question had to do with the Posavina corridor.
3 Was it possible to reach Banja Luka even before the corridor through
4 Posavina was opened?
5 A. Yes, it was possible. But I just explained how.
6 Q. You were asked about Hambarine and you said you received reports
7 that heavy fighting was going on.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. I believe one thing remained unclear, so I'm going to ask you:
10 You received the report about the wounding of one soldier in the form of
11 a report, or you read it somewhere else?
12 A. Well, I personally didn't receive any reports. Maybe it was
13 discussed at the Crisis Staff meeting. But I believe such news were
14 published in "Kozarski Vjesnik" newspaper, that one soldier was wounded,
15 and Radio Prijedor was broadcasting constantly that heavy fighting was
16 going on.
17 Q. Thank you. As a resident of Prijedor, did you have information
18 that there was combat even after the check-point was removed from
20 A. Well, I knew that the groups that had withdrawn from Hambarine
21 towards Kurevo needed to be brought to justice and that was the job of
22 the army and the police. So they continued to search the terrain to
23 solve that problem.
24 Q. Now briefly about Stari Grad. Yesterday it was put to you that
25 Stari Grad was destroyed for the most part. Do you know what the axes of
1 attack were on 30th May 1992?
2 A. Along the bank of the river Sana, from Raskovac towards Stari
3 Grup [as interpreted]. One group came out of the mosque in the centre of
4 town, other groups were going from Puharska towards the centre of town,
5 and one group was coming from Gomjenica and made its base in my
6 grandfather's house, which was completely destroyed after these events.
7 Q. Do you know along which routes these groups withdrew, retreated?
8 A. I don't know if they were able to retreat. There were many
9 wounded, many killed. I believe 16 or 18 of our policemen were killed.
10 Yes, it's coming back to me. I believe they managed to retreat towards
11 Bosanski Novi and Krupa, I think, if my memory serves me.
12 Q. Do you know that they withdrew again via Stari Grad?
13 A. Yes, that's the road. Those who came from Raskovac pulled out
14 that way, and those who came from Puharska retreated towards Cerek again
15 via Stari Grad. There was a lot of destruction in Stari Grad, that's
16 true, but even in Serbian neighbourhoods.
17 Q. I apologise. I had to ask you about Stari Grad for the record.
18 It's clear in your head, but we have to have it clearly on the record.
19 Therefore, would you say that heavy fighting went on in Stari Grad?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Mr. Mandic, thank you. This is all we had for you.
22 A. Thank you.
23 MR. LUKIC: Only, Your Honours, I don't know if it's a good
24 moment. I have one associated exhibit only to tender.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do it now.
1 MR. LUKIC: It's 1D111.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's the order concerning implementation of
3 the decision of the presidency of the republic.
4 Any objections, Mr. Tieger?
5 MR. TIEGER: No, Mr. President.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D111 receives number D829,
8 Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
10 Mr. Tieger, do you have any further questions for the witness?
11 MR. TIEGER: Yes, it looks like just one. If I can check just
12 very quickly. I'm looking for more information in relation to another,
13 but I'll just focus on this one for now.
14 Further Cross-examination by Mr. Tieger:
15 Q. Good morning, Mr. Mandic. You were asked by Mr. Lukic --
16 A. Good morning.
17 Q. -- at page 10 of today's temporary transcript - let me just find
18 the exact quote - whether you received a report about the wounding of one
19 soldier or just read about it somewhere else. And you said:
20 "I personally didn't receive any reports."
21 This matter was also raised in the Karadzic case, I believe, at
22 page 45762 of the transcript of those proceedings. And -- let me just
23 make sure I've indicated to you that this is in connection with
24 Hambarine. And you were asked the following. First you were directed to
25 a Crisis Staff statement. The question was:
1 "And this is a Crisis Staff statement from the following day, the
2 24th of May, and in the first paragraph, this is just under the line in
3 the English, at its morning session the Prijedor municipal Crisis Staff
4 discussed the situation in the municipality, and it says:
5 "'Following yesterday's operations by the army directed at
6 disarming the Muslim paramilitary formations from the Hambarine local
7 commune, the situation had calmed down during the night. The
8 Crisis Staff assessed that the operation had been successful. The army
9 suffered no loss during the combat activities. One member was wounded.'"
10 And the questioner went on to note that you had said a moment ago
11 that you didn't have that kind of information, and then after that
12 reminded that in fact the Crisis Staff the very next day said that the
13 army had suffered no casualties in the Hambarine operation.
14 And your answer at that time was:
15 "I really cannot remember. It's been over 20 years now. Whether
16 there were any wounded or not, I cannot remember. Maybe I didn't attend
17 the session, maybe."
18 Notwithstanding that, Mr. Mandic, you will acknowledge, however,
19 that the Crisis Staff received reports about what happened in Hambarine
20 and you might have been at that session but you can no longer -- you
21 could no longer recall at the time you testified in Karadzic; that's
22 correct, isn't it?
23 A. That's correct. But I believe that I read that in the
24 documentation, in "Kozarski Vjesnik," during proofing. There was one
25 person wounded.
1 Q. "Kozarski Vjesnik" was an organ of the Serbian authorities at
2 that time and the Crisis Staff issued statements via "Kozarski Vjesnik"
3 and the one I just referred to was one of those; correct?
4 MR. LUKIC: Objection. Where can we find that "Kozarski Vjesnik"
5 was organ of Crisis Staff?
6 MR. TIEGER: I beg your pardon. This happens to be a
7 cross-examination question to which a witness can answer.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Could you --
9 MR. LUKIC: No, it's misstating the evidence. There is no trace
10 of such a thing.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Let's -- let's keep -- let's calm down.
12 Mr. Tieger, by combining the "Kozarski Vjesnik" to be an organ of
13 the Serbian authorities and to ask about one specific example, you have
14 mixed up two things and that may lead to confusion whether you are still
15 seeking confirmation on both elements. The first question, therefore,
16 should be: Was "Kozarski Vjesnik" an organ of the Serbian authorities at
17 the time?
18 Witness, could you answer that question to start with.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Shall I answer?
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, "Kozarski Vjesnik" was a
22 newspaper, a weekly, that came out in Prijedor municipality. It was
23 financed then and it is financed now by the budget of Prijedor
24 municipality. Nothing has changed.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Then perhaps you now put the second question,
1 Mr. Tieger, the second part of your question.
2 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President.
3 Q. And the statement by the Crisis Staff that we just referred to
4 regarding its information about what happened in Hambarine was issued via
5 "Kozarski Vjesnik" and that's what you were referring to when you said
6 you saw it in proofing?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Okay. Thank you.
9 MR. TIEGER: And if I could have just one moment, Mr. President.
10 I'm tracking down a document that I have in a different form.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps I could meanwhile, if you do not mind,
12 Mr. Tieger, ask a question.
13 Mr. Mandic, we just looked at a document in which it was stated
14 that the Prijedor Crisis Staff considered decisions by the ARK
15 Crisis Staff to be invalid. Was the decision of the 22nd of June by the
16 ARK giving instructions as where Serbs -- where non-Serbs could not work
17 any longer or where even Serbs could not work any longer, was that one of
18 the decisions that you had declared invalid?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I believe that also applied to
20 that decision. Because we just didn't want to tamper in any way with
21 people who were loyal, who were doing their jobs, and that was one of the
22 reasons to reject this decision of the ARK.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the rejection was in general terms, not on a
24 specific document, was it?
25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could Mr. Tieger switch
1 off his microphone, please. Thank you.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that was one of the reasons.
3 We simply didn't want to blindly follow something that was not consistent
4 with our situation.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Now, yesterday you were asked about this decision by
6 Mr. Tieger, and I'll read the question again. Mr. Tieger asked you:
7 "This is a document dated the 22nd of May, 1992," and perhaps we
8 should have it on our screen at this moment. It's P6949.
9 Meanwhile, I'll continue. So Mr. Tieger pointed you at a
11 "... sent by the Prijedor Crisis Staff to all commercial and
12 social enterprises in accordance," as the document states, "with the
13 decision of the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina."
14 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 MR. LUKIC: -- only it's wrong number. It's 6948.
17 JUDGE ORIE: I'm reading from yesterday's transcript. It -- we
18 are talking about 65 ter 17422?
19 MR. LUKIC: That's -- then I'm wrong, I thought you called
20 another document.
21 JUDGE ORIE: No. This is the one I called, 6949.
22 You were asked about this document yesterday and -- no, I have
23 made a mistake here, I'm afraid. So therefore I'll withdraw that
24 question. I have one question remaining.
25 You said you -- you said, and we read in the document, that you
1 reject all the decisions prior to the 22nd of June and you adopt all the
2 decisions after the 22nd of June. My question is what happened with
3 decisions that were adopted on the 22nd of June?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I can't remember. I
5 don't know what decisions those were.
6 JUDGE ORIE: It may be important because the decision we are
7 talking about was adopted on the 22nd of June. So you wouldn't know
8 whether that one was rejected on the basis of the decision we looked at
9 declaring invalid or not accept decisions taken before the 22nd of June.
10 Could I also invite the parties to have a close look at whether
11 the translation causes any problems there, because it's a bit odd to
12 decide on what happens with decisions before the 22nd of June and after
13 the 22nd of June which leaves entirely open what is the case with
14 decisions that were adopted on the 22nd of June.
15 MR. TIEGER: Well, perhaps that'll entirely open up a question or
16 two regarding that right now.
17 JUDGE ORIE: I was just asking the --
18 MR. LUKIC: There are two decisions. One decision is in regard
19 of decisions --
20 MR. TIEGER: Excuse me. I don't --
21 JUDGE ORIE: One second, one second.
22 MR. LUKIC: No --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger suggested --
24 MR. LUKIC: Let Mr. Tieger [overlapping speakers] --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger doesn't give evidence at this moment. He
1 says that he wants to clarify with the witness certain matters.
2 And since it confuses me at this moment, and then, of course,
3 Mr. Lukic, if this something is new triggered by the Chamber, then we are
4 in the situation that you can ask additional questions as well.
5 Mr. Tieger, if you think you could clarify the matter by putting
6 further questions to the witness and drawing our attention to this or
7 other documents, then that would be appreciated.
8 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President.
9 Q. Mr. Mandic, Mr. Lukic drew your attention to a couple of
10 documents apparently reflecting some tension or friction between the ARK
11 Crisis Staff and the Prijedor Crisis Staff in June, and Prijedor's
12 reaction to that. Irrespective of those exchanges or those positions
13 taken as reflected in those documents on the -- in that part of June --
14 and let me just get the dates, just a second. All right. The 25th of
15 June was the last date I saw. So that's consistent with your
16 recollection, sir, that the -- that this tension between the ARK
17 Crisis Staff and the Prijedor's Crisis Staff was in the latter part of
19 A. Yes, there were tensions, but it had mainly to do with the fact
20 that Prijedor was not represented on the ARK Crisis Staff. That's the
21 reason why the people from the SDS did not accept these decisions. They
22 wanted our personnel to be represented in order to accept their
23 decisions, because Prijedor was practically a part of the Autonomous
24 Region of Krajina, and we did not have our representatives there.
25 Q. And irrespective of those tensions, sir, by the early part of
1 July, those tensions were sufficiently resolved that Prijedor was again
2 forwarding ARK Crisis Staff decisions for implementation; isn't that
4 A. Maybe we can look at some documents to confirm it. I'm prepared
5 to accept what you say, that these problems had been resolved by then. I
6 don't know how long it took, ten or 20 days, I can't pin-point a date. I
7 know these problems went for a while.
8 MR. TIEGER: I'd like to look at 65 ter 7148, please.
9 JUDGE ORIE: And before we continue to do that, I would have one
11 You were asked about this yesterday as well, and you said: "We
12 did not implement this blindly." You didn't say: "We rejected those
13 decisions." You said: "We did not implement it blindly," which suggests
14 that you accepted the decision as validly taken but that you did not feel
15 bound in every respect to implement it, and that's of course something
16 quite different from rejecting as invalid a decision. Now, which of the
17 two specifically on this decision by the ARK Crisis Staff was the case?
18 Did you not implement it blindly but did you accept it to be validly
19 adopted? Or do you say this is a decision we bluntly rejected?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think there was an official
21 letter rejecting that decision of ARK Krajina. As for the part that I
22 already cited, I meant that we didn't implement all the decisions.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Well, that's not what you said yesterday. Yesterday
24 it was specifically about this 22nd of June decision, so that's now a new
25 answer. And if there is any letter which specifically addresses this
1 decision, then of course the Chamber would like to know because then it's
2 a relevant material.
3 But, Witness, we have not looked at that letter you are hinting
4 at at this moment, did you -- did we? We have not seen that?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. There was a dispatch
6 from the Crisis Staff of Prijedor municipality to the Crisis Staff of ARK
7 Krajina. It wasn't a letter. It was an official dispatch. Mr. Lukic
8 showed that decision of the Crisis Staff a moment ago.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That was non -- not specific on the decision
10 we are discussing now, that's one; and second, it rejects any decisions
11 adopted before the 22nd of June, it doesn't say anything about decisions
12 adopted on the 22nd of June. But that was the document you were
13 referring to?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I cannot remember now the
15 decision of the 22nd. I simply cannot.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
17 Mr. Tieger, I interrupted you.
18 MR. TIEGER: No problem, Mr. President. I had asked for
19 65 ter 7148.
20 JUDGE ORIE: And I'm looking at the clock, can we finish within a
21 couple of minutes do you think?
22 MR. TIEGER: I believe so.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MR. TIEGER:
25 Q. Okay. Mr. Mandic, on the screen in front of you is a document
1 dated the 6th of July, 1992, in early July as I'd mentioned to you,
2 signed by Dr. Stakic, the president of the Crisis Staff, providing that
3 the decision of the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of Banja Luka
4 number 03-35/92 dated 22 June 1992 has been delivered to the Crisis Staff
5 of the Prijedor municipality. The decision is being forwarded to you for
6 the purpose of its implementation.
7 First question: That's a reflection of the fact that by early
8 July whatever tensions you referred to earlier between the ARK
9 Crisis Staff and the Prijedor Crisis Staff had been sufficiently
10 resolved, that the Prijedor Crisis Staff was again implementing the ARK
11 Crisis Staff decisions; correct?
12 A. If that's the way it is, most probably it is. I cannot remember
13 right now how long it went on. And obviously the document says that.
14 Q. Second question: Just in case there was any confusion about that
15 June 22nd order that we've been discussing, this decision ensures that
16 the -- a decision of June 22nd, 03-351/92, which we saw earlier and is
17 now in evidence as P6948, would be implemented. And that's the decision
18 about the personnel of Serbian ethnicity. That's correct too, isn't it?
19 A. I cannot link this up, what Serb ethnicity? What?
20 Q. Just keep an eye on that number, 03-351/92.
21 MR. TIEGER: And very quickly call up P6948.
22 Q. That's the decision, which has been discussed at considerable
23 length by now, of the 22nd of June providing that only personnel of
24 Serbian ethnicity may hold executive posts, et cetera. And that, as we
25 can see, 03-531/92. So the document we just looked at is an explicit
1 reference to this decision; correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MR. TIEGER: Mr. President, I'd tender 7148.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Document 7148 receives number P6956,
7 Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
9 Has this triggered any need for further questions, Mr. Lukic?
10 Then, Mr. Mandic -- Mr. Mandic, since the Judges also have no
11 further questions for you, this concludes your evidence. We would like
12 to thank you very much for coming a long way to The Hague and for having
13 answered the many questions that were put to you, put to you by the
14 parties, put to you by the Bench. We wish you a safe return home again.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much indeed. Thank
16 you for your understanding.
17 [The witness withdrew]
18 JUDGE ORIE: We take a break. We will resume at 11.00.
19 --- Recess taken at 10.40 a.m.
20 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that Ms. Hasan wants to raise a
22 matter before we continue with the evidence.
23 MS. HASAN: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning, everyone.
24 I just refer back to a matter that was raised by Mr. McCloskey
25 the day before yesterday in relation to intercept P1366. It was a
1 question about replacing the translation that was part of that -- the
2 English translation of that intercept and uploading a new translation.
3 While there appears to have been an agreement at that time, it seems that
4 in the interim, when Mr. McCloskey spoke with the Defence on the issue,
5 that my understanding is there is no longer agreement on that. And
6 perhaps I don't want to -- I wasn't present during the communication
7 between Mr. McCloskey and the Defence --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
9 MS. HASAN: -- so --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, the Chamber would prefer to have an
11 agreement between the parties on the translation, but if it's not
12 possible, then what we need is then a formal translation or the
13 translation to be verified on the specific issues.
14 MS. HASAN: The revised CLSS translation has been uploaded and it
15 bears document ID 03205457-1ET.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And that's -- I then do not fully understand.
17 Does it mean that the Defence does not accept that new translation?
18 Mr. Stojanovic.
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honour.
20 Just a few sentences.
21 I talked to Mr. McCloskey about this question, and I was prepared
22 to accept at any point in time that in the B/C/S text there is the word
23 "five." We were asked to stipulate as to the meaning of "five," "pet,"
24 and that it should be marked with the letter A or the letter F.
25 Unfortunately, we didn't manage to agree on that and we agreed that the
1 text of the intercept should go as the original B/C/S says and that is
3 The position of the Defence is that anything beyond that would
4 not be a translation but rather an interpretation of what the word "five"
5 might mean, and that is how we left this pending.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So we have two issues: The one it's a matter
7 whether it's an A or whether it's a 5; and the second issue, what it
8 would mean if it were a 5. Is there any dispute about what it would mean
9 if it were an A? Or is that unclear as well?
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in the original
11 B/C/S text there is the word "five," "pet." What it would mean is still
12 in dispute, that's the dispute between us and Mr. McCloskey. Because in
13 B/C/S when somebody says "5," "grade 5," it can mean the best and it can
14 mean the worst. So that would be prone to interpretation.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then that's up for the Chamber then to --
16 after having heard the parties to interpret what it means. I do
17 understand that now at least there is no dispute about what should be
18 uploaded, irrespective of how that should be interpreted.
19 Madam Registrar, the number just mentioned by Ms. Hasan may be --
20 may replace the present translation as it is now in e-court for P1366,
21 and you're instructed to do so. That's it.
22 Then we move into closed session.
23 [Closed session]
11 Pages 28972-28979 redacted. Closed session.
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
12 We take an early break. We will resume at 5 minutes to 12.00.
13 --- Recess taken at 11.35 a.m.
14 --- On resuming at 12.02 p.m.
15 JUDGE ORIE: We turn into closed session, very briefly, in order
16 to have the witness enter the courtroom.
17 Meanwhile, perhaps, Mr. Lukic -- yes.
18 [Closed session]
11 Page 28981 redacted. Closed session.
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
12 Witness GRM130, because that's how we will call you, you'll now
13 first be examined by Mr. Ivetic. You find Mr. Ivetic to your left.
14 Mr. Ivetic is a member of the Defence team of Mr. Mladic.
15 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
16 With the assistance of the court usher, I'd like to show the
17 witness the document that is 1D5302, but due to technical reasons it's
18 not yet in e-court. That's the pseudonym sheet. So, Your Honours, I
19 would propose that we reserve a number for this once the procedure is
20 fulfilled - I have provided copies for Your Honours and anyone else who
21 needs it - and then revisit the issue once the original is in e-court.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 Examination by Mr. Ivetic:
24 Q. Sir, I'd ask you to take a look at this sheet and please verify
25 for us if your name and birth date are accurately recorded thereupon?
1 A. Could I see the document, the original?
2 MR. IVETIC: Did the usher not -- okay.
3 JUDGE ORIE: That's the document.
4 THE WITNESS: Um-hm, okay.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us whether your name, your date of
6 birth, are accurately reflected on this piece of paper?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Ivetic.
9 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you just check whether the title of the case
11 is correctly placed on the document?
12 MR. IVETIC: I see that it is not, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. But let's -- we all understand that you
14 do not have on your mind that there is a case of pseudonym versus
15 Ratko Mladic.
16 MR. IVETIC: That's correct, Your Honour. We will --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's a pseudonym sheet in the case Prosecutor
18 versus Ratko Mladic.
19 MR. IVETIC: Oh, I'm told in it's e-court now as 1D05302. So if
20 we can pull it up and not broadcast the same, that could solve all of our
21 issues, hopefully. But I think it will still have the wrong title, so
22 we'll still need to --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We are not going to change that, Mr. Ivetic.
24 MR. IVETIC: Okay.
25 JUDGE ORIE: It will be for the future to know what we were
1 talking about.
2 MR. IVETIC: There it goes. Now we have it on the screen.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 MR. IVETIC: And now I would ask for this document to be accepted
5 under seal.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D5302 receives number D830,
8 Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted under seal.
10 Please proceed.
11 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
12 If I can now call up and again not broadcast 65 ter number
14 Q. Sir, we have a witness statement on the screen which is not being
15 broadcast to the public. My first question to you: Do you recall giving
16 this statement to the Defence team of General Mladic earlier this year?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And whose signature is visible on this first page?
19 A. My initial.
20 MR. IVETIC: And if we can turn to the last page of the document
21 in the Serbian language.
22 Q. Sir, whose signature is that we see on this page with the
23 accompanying date in June of 2014?
24 A. This is my signature and the correct date.
25 Q. Subsequent to signing this written statement, did you have a
1 chance to review the same in Serbian to verify that everything is correct
2 in it?
3 A. I did and I've read it.
4 Q. And do you stand by everything as contained in your statement as
5 being correctly recorded?
6 A. I agree it's properly recorded and I stand by it.
7 Q. Sir, if I were to ask you today questions based on the same
8 topics as covered in your statement, would your answers in substance be
9 the same as recorded in the statement?
10 A. Yes, they would be roughly the same. They wouldn't be different
11 unless some elaboration were needed.
12 Q. Now today, sir, you have taken a solemn declaration to tell the
13 truth. Does that mean that the facts as contained in your statement are
14 truthful in nature?
15 A. The facts are truthful and I made a solemn declaration to speak
16 the truth before this court.
17 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I would tender the statement 1D01703
18 into evidence under seal. And mindful of Your Honour's instruction, I
19 would leave the associated exhibits to be reviewed and for submissions to
20 be made later.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D1703 receives number D831,
23 Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence under seal.
25 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
1 Your Honours, given the protective measures I did not want to do
2 a witness summary. I will just go straight to my remaining questions.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
4 MR. IVETIC:
5 Q. GRM130, first I'd like to look at paragraph 2 of your statement.
6 MR. IVETIC: Which is on page 2 of both languages and should not
7 be broadcast. So if we could have page 2 of D831, under seal.
8 Q. Here in this paragraph you talk about how your barracks were
9 blockaded by Croatian paramilitary forces. Can you please describe how
10 you and other JNA members at the barracks felt during the blockade? What
11 was the general mood and atmosphere as a result of the blockade?
12 A. I must admit that I never expected that barracks could be under
13 blockade, although there had been some hints that something was going on
14 outside the barracks. (redacted)
1 (redacted) Apart from that, you're invited to answer the question.
2 The question was not whether you expected this to happen, what happened
3 in your village, but how you felt; whereas your statement says that you
4 were -- water-supply, food supply, and access to medical aid were cut
5 off. So I think I would not feel very happy, rather miserable under
6 those circumstances. And if that's what you felt then just say: "We
7 felt miserable," instead of saying whether you expected it to happen or
8 blockades. So could you please answer the question how did you feel
9 under those circumstances?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it was difficult to bear it
11 in those circumstances. We had no power, no water, no supplies. We
12 didn't have bread. We had very little food. It was very difficult to
13 maintain the morale of our men because the nearest forces that were
14 kindly disposed to us were about 50 kilometres away.
15 MR. IVETIC:
16 Q. How long did your barracks remain under the blockade from these
17 Croat forces?
18 A. We remained under blocked for exactly two months when fortunately
19 a peaceful pullout was agreed.
20 MR. IVETIC: Now if we could move to paragraph 8 of your
21 statement, again not broadcasting the same. This is at page 3 in both
23 JUDGE ORIE: Before we do so. Could you also tell us when this
24 blockade took place, Witness?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1991. Shall I give you the
1 exact date? I know it.
2 JUDGE ORIE: If you have, please.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Friday, 13 September, until
4 13 November.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
6 MR. IVETIC:
7 Q. Now, in paragraph 8 you talk about how your -- the barracks was
8 attacked by the Croat National Guard many times, and though you had the
9 ability to do it, no shell was ever fired at the neighbouring city. Can
10 you please first tell us how many times and how you were attacked by the
11 Croat National Guard?
12 A. Those Croatian paramilitary forces that had just been formed
13 attacked several times and created a number of incidents. However, there
14 were three serious attacks on the barracks and a number of attacks at a
15 separate building where we kept ammunition and explosives.
16 Those attacks were the -- the first one was very fierce. The
17 operation was called Deep and Peaceful Sleep. They were supposed to raid
18 the barracks. We had with us some people who were working for the forces
19 outside. They were supposed to create a commotion and chaos in order to
20 make it so that the barracks would surrender. The surrounding forces
21 were outnumbering us hugely and they moved in on the barracks from
22 several directions. They started to infiltrate themselves through the
23 shrubbery quietly. However, we used only infantry weapons and put up
24 resistance. We did not use any large-calibre weapons, although we had
25 them. And we had a lot of fire-power.
1 Q. And now can you explain to us what you mean when you say here
2 that "no shell was ever fired at the city, even though the combat
3 situation allowed for that"?
4 A. Just after the blockade, we jointly took a decision - and
5 everybody took part in that decision, from the youngest to the oldest and
6 we made no -- we didn't look at rank - we decided that we would not leave
7 the barracks and wait for a peaceful outcome. We decided not to create
8 any incidents, not to fire shells at the city, because that would result
9 in a huge conflict and nobody could know how that conflict would end.
10 Under rules of engagement, we had the possibility of using large-calibre
11 weapons, but we refrained ourselves. And I'm very proud of this because
12 nobody was hurt except the attackers, and the property of the people who
13 had been my fellow citizens until the day before was not damaged either.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, you quoted the witness as saying "not a
15 single shell was fired at the city," but it's even more, even the
16 surrounding. And if I understand the testimony of the witness well, that
17 no shell at all was fired.
18 MR. IVETIC: Correct.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then it's well understood.
20 Now, please proceed.
21 MR. IVETIC:
22 Q. Could you just expand a little bit further on what you mean when
23 you say "under the rules of engagement we had the possibility of using
24 large-calibre weapons"?
25 A. Our security was at risk, our safety was at risk. We did not
1 leave the barracks and didn't intend to hurt anybody. Largely
2 outnumbering forces were attacking us. In those circumstances,
3 large-calibre weapons are normally used. And it's true that not a single
4 shell was fired from the barracks in any direction. We didn't even throw
5 a single grenade. We only used smaller-calibre infantry weapons.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MR. IVETIC: Now I'd like to turn to page 4 in both languages,
8 again not broadcasting the same. And I'd like to look at paragraph
9 number 13 with you.
10 Q. Here, sir, you talk about how the Muslim forces disrupted your
11 supplies. Can you explain how they did that?
12 A. Well, the mission of my unit was to secure that location, which
13 you can see, point by important point. In 1992 there occurred some
14 incidents on the ground between Muslim and Serb forces, and the Muslim
15 forces - paramilitary forces - decided to block the supply of food and
16 water at such points. This ceased very quickly and very fortunately we
17 didn't need to use our arsenal to enable the resumption of supplies.
18 This was arranged within a few days and we received food at its proper
20 Q. Now in relation to paragraph 11, you state that your unit was
21 tasked with separating the sides of the conflict. Can you explain how
22 you did that?
23 A. Along the Sava River, there occurred major incidents between Serb
24 and Croat people. There were armed groups that created incidents between
25 them, and we got the assignment to create a buffer zone between such
1 forces. In the early days we were successful. We communicated more with
2 the Serbian side because they were better disposed to us, and we didn't
3 communicate with the Croat side until they began attacking us with
4 artillery at first, followed by infantry attacks from Bosnia-Herzegovina
5 territory. And that forced us at that moment to stay together with the
6 Serb people who were there.
7 I have to stress that in that period I had in my unit Muslim,
8 Croat, Hungarian soldiers, people from Bunje [phoen], the Roma. And if
9 you want to know the percentage, there were about 60 per cent Serbs. And
10 for reasons that you well know, the others were less represented because
11 their nations had appealed to them to withdraw from the Yugoslav People's
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, could I ask the witness to give a
14 time-frame for paragraph 13 or paragraph 11.
15 Could you give us a month and a year?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After coming to Bosnia-Herzegovina,
17 on the 13th of November, we came to the said location and we were left in
18 peace there for about a month or a month and a half before these
19 incidents started. And the other location that is mentioned in the
20 second place, all this was happening all the way until the VRS was
22 JUDGE ORIE: When you say 13th of November, you're referring to
23 13th of November, 1991?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1991 we arrived in
25 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Then for about a month and a half we didn't have any
1 incidents. And then the incidents began.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Do I understand well that this was after Croatia had
3 declared itself independent. Is that ...
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Now you're telling us about skirmishes, about
6 conflicts. Were there attacks from Croatian territory or at least
7 territory claimed by the newly established Croatian republic - and I'm
8 not expressing myself on whether it was rightly done or not - to the
9 territory which you considered to be BiH territory?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The attacks were launched from the
11 territory of the Croatian state, from the other side of the Sava River.
12 They began first with artillery and mortar attacks. And later, when
13 infantry attacks were in full swing, they were also using multiple-rocket
14 launchers, howitzers, and large-calibre weapons. I had the bad luck to
15 have my defence showered twice in one day by a multiple-rocket launcher.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
17 Please proceed.
18 MR. IVETIC: If we can now move to page 6 and again not broadcast
19 the same.
20 Q. And I'd like to focus there on paragraphs 23 through 24 of your
21 statement. And here you talk of an attack on 26 June 1995 by Muslim
22 forces from Srebrenica and Zepa upon Crna Rijeka and the VRS Main Staff.
23 Can you please tell us first the tasking and strength or number of these
24 forces from Zepa and Srebrenica that were involved in this attack?
25 A. It's true. On the 26th of June, along several axes from the
1 so-called demilitarised zone, Muslim forces broke out and launched
2 attacks. One was an attack at a village where they killed both the
3 civilian population and the little number of fighting men who were there,
4 and then they entered the sector of the Main Staff approaching at almost
5 300 metres. I didn't know exactly what forces were there, but it turned
6 out later that there were 200 well-armed, well-trained soldiers sitting
7 in ambush, and they were so brazen that they entered the Main Staff. At
8 several other axes they cut off the roads Sokolac-Han Pijesak and
9 Han Pijesak-Vlasenica in order to make it impossible for our supporting
10 forces to come and assist us. We managed to push them back, and I can
11 say now that it was only thanks to good luck and military ruse. On that
12 occasion, I was very seriously wounded.
13 Q. You indicated that they came within 300 metres. Of what did they
14 come within 300 metres?
15 A. They came 300 metres from the command of the Main Staff. They
16 managed to get by our security and that's where they set up this ambush.
17 They killed one soldier on that occasion and an officer was lightly
18 wounded and he managed to alert the rest. I was with the Rapid Reaction
19 Force when I went to help them.
20 Q. Now I'd like to move to another topic: General Mladic. How
21 would you describe General Mladic as a commanding officer and as a person
22 based upon your experiences?
23 A. I met General Mladic personally, until then I had known of him,
24 but I personally met him in 1993 as I was reassigned to serve on the
25 Main Staff or, rather, one of these units. And several times I had an
1 opportunity to communicate with him.
2 We have rules of service in the army. The rules of service
3 define what an officer should look like, how tidy an officer should be,
4 how he should behave, and so on. If I were to assess General Mladic from
5 that point of view, I would say that he was a true officer from the rules
6 of service with all the required manners.
7 MR. IVETIC: And if we can turn to page 6 in the English --
8 pardon me, page 7 in both languages.
9 Q. And look at paragraph number 27 of your statement.
10 MR. IVETIC: Which, again, should not be broadcast.
11 Q. Here you state that every encounter with General Mladic was
12 uncomfortable from the military point of view. Can you explain for us
13 what you mean here?
14 A. Well, I have to say that that's really the way it was, that
15 encounters with General Mladic were uncomfortable but, on the other hand,
16 a learning experience. It was uncomfortable because Mladic was very well
17 versed in military affairs, the tactical use of units, the theory of
18 warfare, the technical capacities of weapons, and he insisted that we
19 commanders and komandirs should know this very well, too. In addition to
20 that, he minded very much if soldiers were untidy. Also, he was very
21 much against them leaving weapons aside and moving about without a
22 weapon. He insisted that they should always have weapons. He would be
23 upset if they did not have their combat kits on them.
24 Also the discomfort was as follows: When soldiers returned from
25 their assignments, then they would relax in base a bit. However, he
1 insisted on work and order. He also insisted that we should know each
2 and every soldier personally and that we should know what his abilities
3 were, also whether he was married, what kind of family he had, and he
4 would check that very quickly with a few questions. And he would look at
5 the officer concerned and if the officer exhibited any discomfort, that
6 meant that he did not feel certain and sure of himself.
7 MR. IVETIC: Now, if we could turn to page 6 in the English,
8 page 5 in the Serbian, and focus on paragraph 19.
9 Q. And here, sir, you describe how General Mladic managed to recover
10 the combat morale of troops in a particular location. What did he do to
11 recover the combat morale of those troops and permit them to take over
12 that particular location listed?
13 A. Sometimes it is sufficient for the superior officer to show up as
14 a person who has authority, and that is sufficient motivation for
15 carrying out a mission. In that period of time, General Mladic had a
16 huge reputation in the Serb army. As soon as he appeared and talked to
17 soldiers, it was like infusion for a sick person, and this immediately
18 boosted the morale of the soldiers. The soldiers were ready for combat.
19 He saw that there was decisiveness among the commanders. Because, you
20 know, it is not easy to motivate people to move and face the possibility
21 of being hit by a bullet. A person has to be well-prepared for that, the
22 morale has to be high in order to set out on such a mission, and a person
23 should know why he is doing that.
24 Q. And, sir, as a career military officer yourself, what other sorts
25 of things can a commander do to ensure that the morale of soldiers is at
1 an appropriate level?
2 A. First of all, one has to give one's own example at a high level.
3 There should be honour and honesty at a high level so that people would
4 be willing to follow such an officer. Also, such an officer has to be
5 familiar with the rules and regulations. However, the rules and
6 regulations amount to nothing if one doesn't have leadership qualities.
7 As far as commanders were concerned, it was important to know how to wage
8 war, how to conduct one's self in difficult situations. We all had to
9 improvise. The soldiers appreciated us to the degree to which we were
10 capable of responding to a newly created situation that was usually
11 complicated. We needed to make rational moves and to accomplish the
12 mission involved with the least number of casualties. Also, how to
13 resort to ruse in warfare.
14 Q. Have you finished your answer, sir?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Then on behalf of General Mladic and the rest of my team, I thank
17 you for answering my questions.
18 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, that completes the direct examination.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you'll now be cross-examined by Ms. Hasan.
22 You'll find her to your right. Ms. Hasan is counsel for the Prosecution.
23 Please proceed, Ms. Hasan.
24 MS. HASAN: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Cross-examination by Ms. Hasan:
1 Q. Good morning, Witness.
2 A. Good day.
3 MS. HASAN: May we briefly go into private session.
4 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
5 [Private session]
18 [Open session]
19 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
21 MS. HASAN: Could we have a look at Exhibit P02120.
22 Q. And what you will see come up here is a 13 July 1995 order from
23 General Mladic. You can see that in full on the B/C/S. And it's
24 addressed to the Drina Corps, the 65th Motorised Protection Regiment,
25 amongst others. Now it's -- we see from the heading of this order that
1 it deals with the prevention and leakage of military secrets in the area
2 of combat operations. And I'll just highlight a few of those.
3 Under item 1 in the order, the order is to prevent the entry of
4 all uninvited individuals to the general sector of Srebrenica and Zepa.
5 If you follow me down to item 4, it talks about preventing the
6 entry of local and foreign journalists, except those authorised by the
7 Main Staff, to the wider areas of Srebrenica and Zepa.
8 And then if we follow through to item 5, what you see at the
9 bottom there talks about banning and preventing the giving of information
10 in relation to combat operation as well as to the overall activities
11 involving prisoners of war and others.
12 Have you seen this order from General Mladic before?
13 A. I haven't had the opportunity. Those who are familiar with the
14 hierarchy that existed in all armies of the world would know that such
15 orders could not reach me, except for an order that pertains exactly to
16 my unit -- rather, the unit that I command. I get excerpts from an order
17 if something pertains to me. I had the role of reserve for the
18 Main Staff and I did not have such tasks. This was usually something
19 that units that covered a broader area had. You can see all the places
20 referred to here. I never had such tasks.
21 MS. HASAN: Let's take a look at 65 ter 26041.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Before we look at that, were you aware of the order
23 of that -- that this was ordered, apart from whether you have seen it?
24 Because that was the simple question: Did you see it? Apparently you
25 did not. Were you aware of in any way of the content of what was
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Hasan.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was not aware of the content at
5 all. From a professional point of view, tasks are given only to those
6 who --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you have answered the question. You were
8 not aware of the content of the order.
9 THE WITNESS: Okay.
10 JUDGE ORIE: That's what I asked you.
11 Please proceed, Ms. Hasan.
12 MS. HASAN: Okay.
13 Q. Now let's take a look at this document. It's another order.
14 It's dated the 15th of July. And it's from Milomir Savcic and signed for
15 him by Jovo Jazic. And Jovo Jazic, he was Colonel Savcic's deputy; is
16 that right?
17 A. He was deputy commander and chief of staff.
18 MS. HASAN: Can we go into private session.
19 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
20 [Private session]
11 Pages 29000-29002 redacted. Private session.
14 [Open session]
15 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
17 MS. HASAN:
22 MR. IVETIC: Can we go into private session?
23 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
24 [Private session]
11 Pages 29004-29009 redacted. Private session.
16 [Closed session]
3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
6 Witness, was there anything you would like to bring to my
7 attention? I saw you raising your hand. And if so, could you tell us
8 whether we could hear it in open session or whether you would like to go
9 in private session for it.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It can be heard in open session. I
11 just want a clarification. Considering that I felt a certain mistrust in
12 what I'm saying, I can provide a document, which I believe I have in my
13 hotel room, as proof to remove any shade of doubt. And I'm sorry this
14 happened. I was talking about the month of June. I didn't realise you
15 were talking about July. That's all I wanted to say.
16 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know whether I fully understand it. The
17 main issue was that we would like to have specific data, that is, not
18 approximately this or I went there, but to say when did you go anywhere,
19 what happened, et cetera, and we were mainly interested in chronology
20 rather than in the content of medical treatment. That's one.
21 Second, when you say you were talking about the month of June, we
22 understood that something happened in June which kept you out of business
23 for, as you said, three months of which we now received further details
24 about your whereabouts during those three months. And there is -- unless
25 the parties would have any need to further explore the matter, then we do
1 not need any further documentation.
2 Please proceed.
3 MS. HASAN: Your Honours, I'd offer 65 ter 26041 into evidence.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Document 26041 receives number P6957,
6 Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
8 MS. HASAN: And I have no further questions.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Hasan.
10 Mr. Ivetic, do you have any further questions for the witness?
11 MR. IVETIC: I do. And if we can go to private session.
12 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
13 [Private session]
11 Pages 29013-29017 redacted. Private session.
22 [Open session]
23 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
25 Witness GRM130, we have concluded hearing your testimony. I
1 would like to thank you very much for coming and for having answered all
2 the questions that were put to you, and I wish you a safe return home
3 again. If you could please wait for a second and not yet leave the
4 courtroom because we have to turn into closed session for that again,
5 because I would already announce that we'll adjourn at this very point in
6 time because there is no -- the next witness is not available -- or is
7 the next witness available?
8 MR. IVETIC: The next witness is in the waiting room,
9 Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. If that's the case, then we turn into closed
11 session and we'll -- and the witness can be escorted out of the
13 [Closed session]
22 [Open session]
23 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
25 Could the next witness be escorted into the courtroom.
1 [The witness entered court]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Bilbija.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you
5 make a solemn declaration. The text is now handed out to you. May I
6 invite you to make that solemn declaration.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
8 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
9 WITNESS: SIMO BILBIJA
10 [Witness answered through interpretation]
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bilbija, we have only ten minutes left today, so
14 it will be only after the weekend that we'll hear most of your evidence
15 but we nevertheless thought it good to start already. You'll first be
16 examined by Mr. Ivetic, you find him to your left. Mr. Ivetic is a
17 member of the Defence team of Mr. Mladic.
18 Mr. Ivetic, please proceed.
19 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
20 Examination by Mr. Ivetic:
21 Q. Good day, Doctor.
22 A. Good day.
23 Q. Could I ask you to please state your full name for the record.
24 A. Simo Bilbija.
25 MR. IVETIC: At this time I would ask that 65 ter number 1D1757
1 be shown in e-court.
2 Q. Sir, we have a witness statement on the screen. The first
3 question I have for you, Doctor: Do you remember giving such a statement
4 to General Mladic's Defence team earlier this year?
5 A. Yes, I remember. I gave this statement.
6 Q. And for purposes of the record, can you confirm for us whose
7 signature is visible on this page?
8 A. This is my signature.
9 MR. IVETIC: And if we can turn to the last page of the document
10 in both languages.
11 Q. And, sir, could you tell us whose signature is on this page of
12 the document?
13 A. Again, this is my signature, the 28th of July, 2014.
14 Q. Okay.
15 MR. IVETIC: I would like to turn to page 5 in both versions, and
16 I would like to look at paragraph number 20 of the same.
17 Q. And, sir, I would like to ask you do you have any corrections to
18 be made to this paragraph?
19 A. I think that for the sake of the truth it would be of interest to
20 correct a sentence. The one in the third line: His character of an
21 honourable, righteous, and brave soldier, he would prove it every day.
22 That could mean that we saw each other every day. Maybe it would be
23 better to say "every time when we were together" and so on, rather than
24 "every day."
25 Q. Thank you, sir. Apart from this one clarification, do you stand
1 by everything else that is contained in the written statement as written
2 as being accurate?
3 A. Yes, yes, I stand by everything that is written here. I fully
4 stand by it.
5 Q. And, Doctor, if I were to ask you questions today arising out of
6 the same facts and topics as in your written statement, would your
7 answers today be in substance the same as recorded in the statement?
8 A. My answers would be the same in terms of the essence and in terms
9 of the details involved as contained in the statement.
10 Q. And, Doctor, insofar as you have taken a solemn declaration
11 today, this afternoon, would those answers as contained in your statement
12 be truthful in nature?
13 A. Of course they would be truthful. That's what we've said, the
14 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I would tender the statement 1D1757 as
17 the next public exhibit. There are no associated exhibits to this
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.
20 Any objections from the Prosecution?
21 MR. ZEC: Good afternoon. There is no objection.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Zec.
23 Madam Registrar, the number would be?
24 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D1757 receives number D832,
25 Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
2 Any further questions or do you first want to read the summary?
3 MR. IVETIC: I should read the summary, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
5 MR. IVETIC: Dr. Simo Bilbija transferred from Croatia to the
6 Sokolac military hospital at the end of May 1992. He remained there
7 until September of 1993 when he transferred to the Banja Luka military
8 medical centre.
9 At Sokolac military hospital, the staff was ethnically mixed.
10 There were also soldiers and civilians at the hospital of Muslim and
11 Croat ethnicity. General Mladic insisted wounded enemy soldiers should
12 be provided medical assistance without any discrimination.
13 General Mladic also ordered Dr. Bilbija to fly to Srebrenica to
14 provide medical assistance to a Canadian soldier.
15 In April 1993, the witness participated in a medivac evacuation
16 of people from Srebrenica. General Mladic ordered him to execute this
17 task in a fair manner and in accord with medical ethics.
18 In relation to General Mladic, Dr. Bilbija says the General, on
19 every occasion they met, proved his character as an honourable,
20 righteous, and brave soldier.
21 That completes the summary, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: If you have any further questions, we could start.
23 But we have only three or four minutes left.
24 MR. IVETIC: Understood.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
1 MR. IVETIC:
2 Q. Sir, the Sokolac hospital, to what organisation was that hospital
3 directly subordinated?
4 A. If you allow me, I'm looking at the text of your summary and it
5 seems to me --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Witness --
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- that there is an error that
8 managed to slip in.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, the summary is not evidence. So if there
10 are any mistakes, of course we try to avoid them, but the evidence is
11 what is found in your statement. So don't bother about the summary. We
12 will rely on your statement, not on that summary.
13 MR. IVETIC:
14 Q. So, Doctor, if I could ask you the -- yeah.
15 A. The hospital --
16 Q. Yes. To what organisation was the Sokolac hospital directly
17 subordinated to?
18 A. The hospital in Sokolac where I worked was called the hospital of
19 the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska, so it was directly
20 subordinated to the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska. The
21 medical staff in this hospital mostly hailed from Sarajevo, from the
22 military hospital of Sarajevo and other hospitals, other civilian
23 hospitals in Sarajevo. I myself hailed from the military hospital in
25 MR. IVETIC: If we can briefly turn to paragraph 8, found on
1 page 3 in both versions.
2 Q. In this paragraph you state that the staff at Sokolac hospital
3 was of mixed ethnicity. Was that true for the duration of your time
4 spent there?
5 A. As I have mentioned, the staff at the hospital came from the
6 military hospital in Sarajevo. Most of them. And the rest were doctors
7 and other medical staff from different hospitals in Sarajevo. Their
8 ethnic background was mixed. What is characteristic of this hospital is
9 that all the medical staff who wished to co-operate were gladly taken in.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Witness --
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When they wanted to leave --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, let me stop you there. Could you please
13 focus on the question, whether the composition remained mixed during all
14 the time you were working there, because that was the question.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, mixed throughout this period.
16 In the beginning of the war, there were several members of the medical
17 staff that came and left the hospital but some stayed on.
18 Dr. Ljubo Berberian, I can mention him, he is a neurosurgeon.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, it looks as if you have received an
20 answer to your question, isn't it?
21 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Unless you would like to know exactly who was there
23 which would --
24 MR. IVETIC: Well, if we could just have the completion of
25 Dr. Berberian, what his ethnicity was, and then we can pause for the day
1 since we are at the time for the break.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So finish your answer, although it wasn't
3 asked to deal with specific persons, tell us about Dr. Berberian.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Dr. Berberian originally came from
5 an Armenian family in Sarajevo. His mother was Turkish. At the time
6 when we worked in that hospital, his mother and his brother were still in
7 Sarajevo. And this doctor stayed at the Sokolac hospital throughout the
8 war, the hospital of the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska.
9 JUDGE ORIE: We'll adjourn for the day.
10 Witness, I would like to instruct you that you should not speak
11 or communicate with whomever about your testimony, whether that is the
12 testimony already given today, that also includes of course your
13 statement, or whether that's testimony still to be given on Monday,
14 because we resume on Monday at 9.30 in the morning in this same
15 courtroom. Therefore, we would like to see you back on Monday morning
16 and you may now follow the usher.
17 [The witness stands down]
18 JUDGE ORIE: We adjourn for the day and will resume Monday, the
19 1st of December, 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, I.
20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.19 p.m.,
21 to be reconvened on Monday, the 1st day of
22 December, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.