1 Tuesday, 9 December 2014
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.36 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
9 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 We'll move into private session to deal with two matters. It
12 will not take very long.
13 [Private session]
19 [Open session]
20 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
22 I know that the Prosecution had two short preliminary matters,
23 but I invite them to postpone that until later.
24 Could the witness be escorted in the courtroom.
25 And, meanwhile, I'll deal with document D557, which was MFI'd
1 during the testimony of Nenad Kecmanovic.
2 A few pages of D555 -- 557, I apologise, which is a 77-page
3 document, entitled "Islamic Declaration," was used with
4 Witness Kecmanovic. In September the Defence advised the Chamber that it
5 would seek to tender the entire document. On the 13th of October of this
6 year, the Chamber requested the Defence to file submissions giving the
7 reasons as to why the entire document should be admitted. The Chamber
8 hereby sets a deadline of the 19th of December, 2014, for these
10 [The witness takes the stand]
11 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Amidzic.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. President of the
13 Trial Chamber. Good morning, Your Honours, Judges.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Amidzic, I'd like to remind you that you're
15 still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of
16 your testimony, that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
17 but the truth.
18 Mr. Ivetic will now continue his examination-in-chief.
19 WITNESS: BOSKO AMIDZIC [Resumed]
20 [Witness answered through interpreter]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
22 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Examination by Mr. Ivetic: [Continued]
24 Q. Good morning, Colonel.
25 A. Good morning.
1 MR. IVETIC: I'd like to call up in e-court Exhibit D847, which
2 should be the statement of the witness. And could we please turn to page
3 6 of the same in both languages. I apologise. It will be one page prior
4 in the English. We're looking at paragraph 25.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've found 25.
6 MR. IVETIC:
7 Q. Sir, in this paragraph you mention that you provided three sets
8 of field kitchen trailers for the Nepalese Battalion of the UN forces.
9 Can you tell us how and why it came to be that you were called upon to
10 provide these to the Nepalese Battalion?
11 A. Well, Judges, in response to this question, I'm going to say the
12 following. We kept this buffer zone in Slavonia; or rather, the units of
13 my corps that separated the warring peoples and disabled conflicts,
14 although conflicts were under way.
15 As this area was left, according to the agreement reached between
16 the JNA and UNPROFOR it was the peacekeeping forces that took over, or
17 rather the forces, for ensuring that area. That was the Nepalese and
18 Argentinian Battalions. When this area was taken and when this function
19 was taken over from our units, I was asked for three kitchens with tents
20 and equipment for preparing meals in the field. My organs gave this to
21 them, and they were supposed to give it back, which, indeed, they did.
22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could all microphones
23 please be switched off when the witness is speaking. Thank you.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I may just get some clarification, Witness.
25 You are recorded as having said "disabled conflicts." This is at
1 page 4, line 13. Was it disabled conflicts? It doesn't make sense
2 what -- that you said. Or is it disabled convicts? I don't know.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me read the sentence to you. You say:
5 "We kept this buffer zone in Slavonia; or rather, the units of my
6 corps that separated the warring peoples and disabled conflicts..."
7 Or are you -- is the disabled -- is a vapier?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my language that is what it
9 means, to disable conflicts, not to make conflicts possible.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
12 MR. IVETIC:
13 Q. Colonel, I'd now to now look at paragraph number 30.
14 MR. IVETIC: Which should be on the next page in both languages
15 of the statement.
16 Q. And here it says that prisoners of war organised the preparation
17 and distribution of their own food at Manjaca. Can you please explain
18 for us the manner how food was provided for them to prepare and
19 distribute themselves.
20 A. That task, as well as the task in general that was being carried
21 out for all combat units in terms of working along these patterns, as we
22 say, we carried this out through the organs that were the mainstays of
23 these activities. However, the command of the camp provided the numbers
24 and the requests to the Kozara barracks and then they made calculations
25 according to standards and then provided food and other things to the
2 It is true that the prisoners themselves organised the
3 preparation and distribution of food. My duty was also not only to
4 provide food but also accommodation, change of clothing, and bathing. I
5 can add another thing. The assortment of articles and needs that were
6 provided according to these calculations did not differ at all from the
7 rations I provided to others. Often this was not sufficient, but that
8 was the case for all.
9 Q. Sir, you have just said:
10 "The assortment of articles and needs that were provided
11 according to these calculations did not differ at all from the rations I
12 provided to others."
13 What "others" are you talking about?
14 A. I mean other units that were there for security in the entire
15 area, because the POW camp had to be supplied with food according to the
16 norms and standards that are prescribed otherwise. I made no distinction
17 between the members of the army and the persons who were in the camp. I
18 did it in an equal way, depending on the numbers involved.
19 Q. Thank you. Now I'd like to look at paragraph 37 --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask one follow-up question.
21 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that the quantity of food needed was
23 calculated and that you made no distinction between security and the
24 prisoners of war. Were you there when the food was distributed?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Most often I was not because the
1 POWs organised this themselves. As for inspections, I could not adjust
2 it to that, and it was a rare occasion when I would be there when food
3 was being distributed.
4 JUDGE ORIE: So -- so whether -- I do understand that there was
5 not sufficient food. What -- what quantity was -- was it 50 per cent?
6 What was needed that was provided? Or 70 per cent or -- could you tell
7 us a bit more about that? On average.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot tell you about
9 percentages. The assortment of articles differed. Sometimes there was a
10 full assortment, and sometimes certain articles were lacking. So when I
11 didn't have that, I didn't have it for others either when I had no way of
12 getting ahold of things like that. I'm saying that the pattern of supply
13 was the same for officers and soldiers and on the front and these persons
14 who were in the POW camp.
15 In the same way, the rules were being applied. The rules
16 governing supplies. It depended on what I had. At certain points I had
17 more and then, say, the following day I would have less. Often the meals
18 would simply be poorer. There wouldn't be a full assortment of articles.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Now, how could you be sure that those who were
20 providing security would, in effect, get the same poor rations and not -
21 which one could imagine - either take more than their share was or take
22 less than their share was. How would you know who finally got what?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ultimately that is really difficult
24 to be everywhere, because it's a big area, a large number of units,
25 and --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I do understand that you finally would not,
2 could not know for certain whether it was shared in the way as it was
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the contrary. My calculations,
5 yes, and everyone in the field got whatever was possible. And my organs
6 did that in a very professional and responsible way.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But you said it's really difficult to be
8 everywhere which means that you finally were not able to verify whether
9 it all went as it was planned and as it was calculated who really got
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, Judge, sir, the commander of
12 the unit is the one that counts, and then they can give me information
13 saying there wasn't sufficient and so on. However, I sent people of my
14 own to check, and then we would improve the situation as much as
16 JUDGE ORIE: To check what?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Everything. Rules, standards,
18 application, quality of meals, way of distribution, cleanliness, hygiene,
19 everything else.
20 JUDGE ORIE: What did your people find that needed to be
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Quite a bit. There is a broad
23 spectrum in terms of all the objections that we heard, and it depended on
24 the people who would use the articles they received. Also hygiene. Were
25 they prepared, ready to do that. Also cleanliness, personal cleanliness,
1 clothing, and other equipment.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I would have preferred to have concrete
3 answers rather than general statements, but I leave it to that.
4 Mr. Ivetic, you may proceed.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I put one follow up question.
6 You said, Witness, you said --
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sir, sir, Judge.
8 JUDGE ORIE: No, no. Please, we are not --
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Listen to my next question.
10 JUDGE ORIE: We're not used to being interrupted.
11 Please proceed, Judge Fluegge.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sorry.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You told us that the prisoners of war did the
14 preparation and distribution of the food by themselves. How did they
15 organise it?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was a particular point where
17 the kitchen was for cooking. Then there was a particular area with
18 certain tables for distribution. And then there was a certain lineup. I
19 mean, in terms of the way how these persons who were in camp were
21 Then after the cooking, the commander of the camp had to be
22 present to taste the food and to approve its distribution. That was the
23 sign that the food was prepared in a proper way, that it was healthy, and
24 that it could be distributed.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: However, you didn't tell me how the prisoners of
1 war organised themselves. This was the question. Because earlier you
2 said they organised it by their own. How did they do that? I'm not
3 asking about the commander and about his duties.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand. On the basis of
5 mutual -- I mean, selection or the command -- on the basis of the
6 composition involved, I mean, the persons who were found there, who were
7 professional waiters, who could do that kind of work, they were involved
8 in such obligations and then they would do that for the entire camp.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And the prisoners decided who is a professional
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, don't forget that when
12 persons came in and were processed, that was very detailed. During that
13 processing and during that registration, the command and the persons who
14 comprised the security of the camp have an exact overview of the
15 structure of these persons and also what they could be involved in.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I'm sorry, but you didn't answer my question how
17 the prisoners organised themselves. But I leave it to that.
18 Mr. Ivetic.
19 MR. IVETIC:
20 Q. Did you have anything additional to tell the Judges, or can we
21 move on, sir?
22 A. I should explain yet again. In every respect in terms of
23 regulations that camp was well organised. From the moment those people
24 entered and were processed, there was no doubt that they could have been
25 engaged in the organisation of work in the camp itself. As for the camp
1 administration or the camp command, they knew exactly who they could
2 engage and who they couldn't, because they were not capable of working.
3 Q. Okay. Now, sir, I'd like to turn to the next page in your
4 statement and look at paragraph 37. Here, sir, you're explaining that
5 since you were at your maximum, you allowed and humanitarian
6 organisations provided additional materials to provide a higher standard
7 of life to those in Manjaca camp. Can you identify for us which
8 humanitarian aid organisations these were that did this.
9 A. Your Honours, this part of the answer is the addition to my
10 previous answer. There were shortages and there were gaps in security,
11 and I therefore allowed humanitarian organisations to fill the gaps and
12 to provide for what I could not provide. Those same representatives of
13 humanitarian organisations inspected the camp so we could together
14 ascertain what needed to be brought in, equipment, cleaning agents,
15 personal hygiene articles, and food I could not provide. To be more
16 specific, most commonly they brought in medicines and a whole range of
17 necessities in terms of medical supplies. And as for their names, most
18 commonly, it was Merhamet, the Muslim charitable organisation
19 headquartered in Banja Luka, and Caritas, also a charitable organisation
20 run by the Catholic church. The Red Cross, the local Red Cross was also
21 present, and you already know about the role that the
22 International Red Cross played in all that.
23 I apologise. I told all of them there and then what my
24 capabilities were and I welcomed them all. As far as I know, they
25 inspected the area even without me. When they were announced they were
1 allowed to get in. I am not aware of the fact that any of their
2 announced visits was not approved. All those who could play a role and
3 improve the standard of living and the humanitarian situation of those
4 who were kept in the camp were more than welcome to do so.
5 MR. IVETIC: Now I'd like to look at paragraph 39, the same page
6 in English, the next page in Serbian.
7 Q. Here you mention that you read reports and found statements, even
8 of those that visited the Manjaca with you, with meant --
9 misrepresentations about Manjaca. Can you tell us what reports or
10 statements you are referring to?
11 A. Your Honours, I really need to start my answer to this question
12 in this way, in the following way: All those who escorted me very often
13 and what I established during my controls did not reflect the situation
14 as was portrayed by the persons who were often visiting the camp with me.
15 We looked at the same things and then their stories ended up being
16 different. They would end up saying that a lot of irregular things were
17 going on, including inhumane treatment, ill-treatment, torture --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, let me stop you there.
19 I'm also addressing you, Mr. Ivetic.
20 You were asked what statements you were talking about.
21 Of course you'll understand, Mr. Ivetic, that this Chamber is
22 unable to evaluate any evidence which says some statements I heard or
23 that and that without knowing what statements we are talking about.
24 Apart from that, it's not usual for a witness who tells us that he was
25 often not present, that he could tell us exactly that those who are
1 telling about certain events are not telling the truth where the witness
2 himself apparently, or we could check that on the basis of the statements
3 he's talking about, whether he was present or not, whether he went -- can
4 contradict that. And by the way, it's not a matter of telling that
5 someone else is not telling the truth. But if this witness has any
6 specific knowledge about certain events, we'd like to hear that. And
7 then, of course, we have to evaluate and we have to assess which is the
8 truth, what is the truth, and what is not. But these kind of sweeping
9 general statements of others not telling the truth doesn't assist the
10 Chamber. Could you please be focused in your questions on these matters.
11 MR. IVETIC: I thought I was by asking what statements he's
12 talking about, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but -- you were, but then you let the witness
14 just go and he says before answering the question I have to make all kind
15 of statements. You could have reminded him at that moment that you
16 require him to answer your question.
17 MR. IVETIC: Okay.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
19 MR. IVETIC:
20 Q. Colonel, could you please identify for us precisely what
21 statements you are referring to in this paragraph of your statement.
22 A. Your Honours, as I was preparing for this testimony, I came
23 across the statements of the witnesses who testified here before me.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Well, first of all, that's an answer to the
25 question. I take it that you then refer to those statements and that
1 you --
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: -- apparently studied them. Who provided them to
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I was preparing myself for this
6 testimony, I came across a statement by Colonel Selak.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I didn't ask you at this moment whose
8 statement you were talking about. Who provided the statement to you or
9 how did you find it?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I was being provided with
11 materials from -- by the Defence team and when I wanted to be acquainted
12 with all the materials in order to prepare for this appearance. A lot of
13 the things were shown to me.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, the simple answer is: They were given to
15 me by the Defence. Because that was the question.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Would you tell us exactly what you received
18 from the Defence, names of the witnesses.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In that statement that I am trying
20 to interpret and use here in order to provide my own explanation. Again?
21 JUDGE ORIE: Again, I stop you. My question was: Whose
22 statements you received by the Defence. So I expect you to tell me
23 Witness A, Witness B, Witness -- I just want names at this moment so that
24 we know what statements you received and reviewed.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the specific case,
1 Colonel Osman Selak. His statements.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Did you receive any other statement, and did you
3 review any other statement?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not have an opportunity.
5 However, I saw parts of his statement where it says exactly this. I
6 don't know what was happening there. I don't know. But people told me,
7 people from Merhamet told me that. That's what I saw in the statement.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, do I understand that the only statement you
9 have read and reviewed was the statement of Mr. Selak?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were several statements.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then give us the name of the other witnesses
12 whose statements you reviewed.
13 MR. IVETIC: Perhaps I can assist. There's a translation issue.
14 He said [Interpretation] "he has several statements," referring to
15 Mr. Selak.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Fine, if you have several statements. Whose
17 statements do you have?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely. His statements,
19 Osman Selak's statements.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do you have statements of any other witness,
21 other than Selak?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In this matter, apart from Selak's,
23 nothing else.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. What do you have from Selak's statements?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, Your Honour, I've just told
1 you. In one part of his statement, it says as follows: When it comes to
2 the --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, we'll come to that later. I first want to
4 know: Do you have one statement of Selak, do you have several statements
5 of Selak? And, if so, how many.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't be sure how many. However,
7 one of them deals with this issue and I remember very well --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Witness --
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you will allow me, I can't
10 remember what year that statement was from.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, no. I want you first to answer my
12 questions. You want to move through a certain subject and we need
13 information before we come to that subject. If there's any specific
14 matter -- Mr. Mladic, are you supposed to remain seated, first of all.
15 If there's any translation issue, Mr. Stojanovic, tell us.
16 Apparently there is a ... is there no audio? No loud speaking.
17 MR. IVETIC: I'm told everything should be okay now.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 Now, I want you -- we want to know exactly on what your statement
20 in this respect is based, and that's the reason why we want to have that
21 information first. What you did see? How many pages? Was it a short
22 statement? Was it a long statement? How many statements have you seen?
23 From Mr. Selak.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Several statements on several
25 occasions. They were all by Selak. But what he dealt with in this
1 particular statement, I remember that --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, again, we'll come to that. Please answer
3 my questions first. You say you have seen -- are they all short
4 statements, and in what language are they?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those statements were in English
6 and in Serbian.
7 JUDGE ORIE: You read English?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
9 JUDGE ORIE: And how was that -- did you also read transcripts of
10 the testimony of Mr. Selak or did you just read statements which he
11 signed like the statement you've given?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can't make a
13 distinction between the two. I think it was a transcript. I don't know
14 what you mean when you say "the transcript of his statement." It was the
15 transcript -- transcript of his testimony or statement.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. What a statement is is the relatively short
17 report of an interview in which you just see what the person may have
18 said. Like your statement as you find it on your screen now. That's
19 what I call a statement.
20 What I call a transcript is a verbatim record of what someone
21 tells us in court, which means that you'll see question put, answers,
22 interventions saying we take a break, et cetera, et cetera.
23 Now, what you did you -- and usually those transcripts are
24 relatively long. That is, could be easily 30, 40, 50, 60 pages, whereas
25 usually statements are short; that is, anything between two and often not
1 more than ten pages. What did you read?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just told you, a transcript. It
3 was longer than a statement that you have just mentioned.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Now, that was in what language?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Serbian.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, this Chamber is not aware of any
7 transcript being prepared -- although there is a translation problem at
8 this moment.
9 Mr. Ivetic, could you tell us out as to whether --
10 And let me ask you first: Where did you get that transcript
11 from? Did you get it from the Defence.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've told you, yes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Mr. Ivetic, were any which is possible
14 transcript provided to the witness in preparing for his testimony.
15 MR. IVETIC: Mr. Lukic prepared this witness and my understanding
16 is that only ICTY statements were -- would have been given to the witness
17 to comment upon if he knew anything about specific allegations of
18 Mr. Selak, and it is possible that a Google translation of the draft
19 statement was also provided.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. So it's at this moment, if I could say so,
21 it's more likely than not that he was provided with an English or at
22 least a -- statements taken in B/C/S or written down in B/C/S?
23 MR. IVETIC: My understanding is all the ICTY statements are
24 taken in English with a B/C/S translation provided.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But statements, not testimony.
1 MR. IVETIC: Well, I've also indicated that I believe also a
2 Google translation of the transcript could also be provided.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. All right. Now, when this witness
4 makes this statement about I heard, I was told, et cetera, I may take it
5 that when he was interviewed that it was verified what he exactly
6 referred to rather than putting on paper any comment without having
7 verified on what it was based? What it referred to.
8 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour. And the witness has five times
9 today tried to identify particularly the statement from Mr. Selak, the
10 particular words of Mr. Selak that he's been referencing, and you have
11 not permitted him to do so.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, you're invited to clarify this issue in
13 the way I did it because I do understand that I do it not as you consider
14 it to be appropriately done. Please be aware that the statement, as it
15 is now, lacks sufficient basis, and you're invited to clarify this
16 viva voce because you are claiming, if I understand you well, that you
17 better know how to do that and I gladly accept that.
18 Please proceed.
19 MR. IVETIC: I do not know better than you, Your Honour. You
20 have asked questions and the witness has started to answer them.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, I said that you may proceed. Would you
22 please proceed.
23 MR. IVETIC: I would, Your Honours, and I would also direct
24 Your Honours to paragraphs 64 through 68 of the statement that deal
25 particularly with Mr. Osman Selak.
1 Q. Now, Colonel, could you please answer what the Judge did not let
2 you answer: What particular parts of Mr. Selak's statement are you
3 referencing in your discussion in paragraphs 39 and 40?
4 A. Your Honours, I apologise. I didn't make a distinction. I
5 really don't know the distinction between a transcript and a statement.
6 It probably will be a statement. But what am I talking about? In that
7 statement by Osman Selak, I found a part where he describes the situation
8 in the prisoner of war camp at Manjaca. He says that there was inhumane
9 treatment, ill-treatment, and even killings of prisoners. He says: I
10 don't know, but I was told that by people from Merhamet. He continues to
11 say that in that camp, according to them, about 40 people were killed. I
12 referred to that part of the statement and I provide my answer
13 accordingly. I did not make up anything. I did not add anything.
14 Your Honours, I was surprised for that person to say some 40. In our
15 language 40 is 40, and some 40 could be 39 or 41 or any other unspecified
16 number of people who were killed.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Just for my information, do you think "some 40"
18 could also be 18 or 65, or would be it be, well, let's say, anywhere
19 between 35 and 45?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is my problem exactly,
21 Your Honour. When he says "some 40," he means around 40. I really can't
22 tell you with certainty whether it is anything between 35 and 45. It is
23 a very non-specific piece of information which cannot be pin-pointed.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you said "or any other unspecified number,"
25 which would range from whatever, whereas I understand "some 40" to mean
1 in the range of approximately 40, that would be at least anywhere between
2 30 and 50, but I asked you this because you said it could be any
3 unspecified number which is a far wider range than the one I put to you,
4 as my understanding of what "some 40" means.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me tell you sincerely,
6 Your Honour, I don't know what he meant. This is just my objection.
7 This is an important piece of information and still he presents it in a
8 very non-specified way. He may have had in mind 39 or 41, he is not sure
9 about this figure, 40. Still, it's a very important piece of information
10 and to tackle with such recklessness --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Well, as a matter of fact, Mr. Ivetic, as I said
12 before, if the witness can tell us anything specific which contradicts or
13 supports or -- about the same events, we'd like to hear. But to -- for
14 the witness to tell us what is appropriately accepted into evidence or
15 not may not be the most important thing to hear from a witness.
16 Please proceed.
17 MR. IVETIC: Thank you. Now I'd like to move to page 9 in
18 English and page 10 in Serbian, and we should then be looking at
19 paragraphs 44 through 45.
20 Q. And here you describe bringing an ICRC and international
21 humanitarian representative delegation to the Mali Novi Logor barracks to
22 show them that this was not a prisoner of war camp. First of all, who if
23 anyone came with you and these officials to the barracks on this
25 A. Your Honours, in the Banja Luka garrison, there is and there was
1 the Mali and Novi Logor barracks, Logor meaning a camp. And there was an
2 association with the war camps. In the Mali Novi Logor there was a
3 military investigation prison where military personnel was kept while
4 they were waiting to be tried or investigated. That facility was a
5 military prison or a detention unit. I inspected it with General Mladic
6 with representatives of the International Red Cross with our host from
7 the barracks who was responsible for the control and care of that
8 facility. We showed everybody everything. We opened all the rooms and
9 as we were passing through the facility, we also had brief conversations
10 with the people who were kept there. We entered everything single room,
11 we saw every single person, we controlled the corridor, and finally we
12 opened the area in -- below the staircase where brooms were kept in a
13 little closest just to show everybody that we were not hiding anything.
14 The representatives of the Red Cross and some other people who were
15 there, and I don't know which organisation they belonged to, did not have
16 anything to say to everything that they had seen. They did not have any
18 Q. Now I'd like to move to --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi.
20 MR. TRALDI: Can we get a date for this visit.
21 MR. IVETIC:
22 Q. Do you recall the year or date or time of year for this visit to
23 the Mali Novi Logor barracks?
24 A. Mr. President, I would not want to speculate, but it was in the
25 month of August 1993. I think it was on the 27th of August or during
1 that period of time.
2 Q. Thank you. Now I'd like to look at paragraph 46 on the same
3 page. Here you talk of the Croat population running from Muslim forces
4 in Central Bosnia. Can you be a bit more specific precisely what region
5 these Croats were coming from? What is the name for that region?
6 A. Mr. President, the answer to this question goes as this. I
7 received a task from my superior command, it was signed by Mr. Mladic.
8 It was to receive the population from Central Bosnia who were threatened
9 and more specifically from the Lasva valley around the town of Travnik.
10 Am I making myself clear?
11 Q. Yes, yes. If I --
12 A. The population that was threatened and members of the Croatian
13 Defence Council were simply fleeing before Muslim forces and they were
14 seeking refuge in our territory. That was approved. And then we --
15 Q. If I can interrupt. If I can interrupt, we do have some of that
16 in your statement. I have two more questions I'd like to get to
17 hopefully before we take the first break.
18 Sir, in paragraph 49 on the next page in English and page 10 in
19 the Serbian, you talk about HVO members that surrendered their weapons
20 and --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic should not speak at an audible volume.
22 MR. IVETIC:
23 Q. -- and were temporarily accommodated in Manjaca. How long did
24 they stay in Manjaca and where did they go after?
25 A. Mr. President, members of the HVO, around 300 of them, decided to
1 surrender. They their own lists. They surrendered their weapons. With
2 their consent they were taken to facilities of the former camp, and at
3 that moment it was no longer a camp and they did not have the status as
4 prisoners of war. They stayed there not more than ten days, and during
5 that time the further procedure was organised. Upon the order of our
6 superior command, we used lorries with tarpaulin to transport them to the
7 area of Vares. They had to move across our territory, and those who
8 wanted to go to Ilijas and Sarajevo, we could not meet that request
9 because those areas were under the control of Muslim forces, so they
10 faced further problems there if they had been sent there.
11 Q. Sir, now I'd like to look on the same page in English and the
12 next page in Serbian, and my last question deals with paragraph 62.
13 MR. IVETIC: And if we go to the next -- pardon me. We should go
14 to page 12 in the English and page 12 in -- page 13 in Serbian. And
15 paragraph number 62.
16 Q. Here you say about General Mladic:
17 "All that I heard and pictured about him earlier was proven right
18 about his personality when I was on an official visit to the Knin Corps."
19 What precisely had you heard and pictured about General Mladic
20 which was proven true and from whom had you heard it?
21 A. During the regular visit to the Knin Corps with my previous
22 commander, with a view to an exchange of experience, I spoke to the
23 assistant commander for morale of that corps whose name was
24 Mesud Hasotic. He was a colonel and he was assistant commander for
25 morale for that corps. Since I did not know the name or surname of the
1 head of the quartermaster's division, and that is what I was interested
2 in, he took me to the chief whose name was Ibro. I could remember his
3 last name. He was a colonel, too. We talked about all sorts of things,
4 and they told me about Mr. Ratko Mladic who was then Chief of Staff of
5 that corps who was a real soldier's man, a man's man who asked for
6 discipline and order and all on the basis of the personal example that he
7 set. As a soldier, I recognised my own attitude and fitting into
8 requirements, although I didn't know that he would be my commander in the
9 coming period too.
10 May I proceed now?
11 Q. If you could also tell us the ethnicity of Mr. Mesud Hasotic and
12 Ibro while continuing.
13 A. Mr. Mesud Hasotic is a Muslim. He still lives in Banja Luka.
14 And Colonel Ibro, as I've already said I cannot remember his last name,
15 he is also a Muslim, but I don't know where he hails from and where he
16 lives right now.
17 Q. And have you completed your description of how they described
18 General Mladic to you as you later found to be proven right?
19 A. Well, naturally. The first time I met General Mladic, that was
20 the day of the assembly when the Army of Republika Srpska was
21 established, when the Main Staff was established, the Main Staff of the
22 Army of Republika Srpska, and when he was appointed commander of that
23 staff. I met him in front of the hall and at first sight all of this was
24 confirmed and a lot more than that; namely, he that is very resolute,
25 energetic, and above all he showed this decisiveness and this fairness by
1 his own example. I was really inspired by that. And later on we would
2 see each other as we carried out our tasks, either when I went to report
3 to him in the Main Staff or he would come to me command. We did such a
4 lot of work together. And never, really, he never disappointed me. I
5 had great confidence in him. We did so many things together and I saw
6 that he had confidence in me too and that he appreciated what I did as
8 Q. Colonel, sir, on behalf of General Mladic and the rest of the
9 Defence team, I thank you for answering my questions today.
10 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, that completes the direct examination
11 and I see we're -- I thank the translators for the indulgence of the
12 extra five minutes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you, Mr. Ivetic.
14 Mr. Traldi.
15 MR. TRALDI: I recognise the time. I have one question for the
16 Defence for the record before --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Do we need the witness for that?
18 MR. TRALDI: We don't need the witness, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: So then we would first -- I would have one question
20 for you, Witness.
21 You told us about your role in the -- to provide food and all
22 kind of facilities for the Manjaca prisoners of war camp. Could you tell
23 us exactly until when you performed that duty? I mean, on -- when did
24 that stop.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my statement, Mr. President of
1 the Trial Chamber, it says exactly the 14th of February, 1993, when I
2 took over another duty. It was 1993. It was 1993. Yes, sorry. And
3 then Colonel Bulic took over from me. And this was after the Serbian new
5 It's written in the statement. I don't like to guess as far as
6 dates are concerned. I am afraid that I may make a mistake and then it
7 may turn out to be on purpose when it's not, and you really have it in
8 the statement and --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Witness.
10 Mr. Ivetic, could you help me exactly where if I find it? And I
11 don't know whether it's phrased in a similar way as I asked or whether I
12 should conclude that from other information.
13 MR. IVETIC: The 14th of February 1993 date is in paragraph 2 of
14 the statement, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Paragraph 2. Let me just have a look.
16 MR. IVETIC: When he was appointed assistant commander for
17 logistics on 14th February 1993.
18 In relation to --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I now understand that I have to understand that
20 change in position as the point in time.
21 Are -- you are saying that when you were appointed assistant
22 commander for logistics, which was on the 14th of February, 1993, that
23 your duties in relation to providing food -- well, whatever, to Manjaca
25 Then one more question. Did your successor take over that
1 responsibility or was it ended anyhow?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, security for that specific
3 POW camp did not function then because the camp did not function either.
4 It had been disbanded on -- I mean, in November of the previous year. So
5 there was no need. But, Mr. President, at any rate he did all of this
6 work or he would have done all this had it been necessary.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you have answered my question.
8 We'll take a break. We'd like to see you back at 11.00. And you
9 may follow the usher.
10 MR. IVETIC: And, Your Honours, paragraph 38 [Realtime transcript
11 read in error "30"] has the date of the closure of Manjaca camp.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 [The witness stands down]
14 MR. IVETIC: And just for the record, it's paragraph 38. I see
15 paragraph 30 in the transcript. I may have misspoken.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's -- I have to combine the information so
17 as to find the -- an answer to my question.
18 Mr. Traldi.
19 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Mr. President.
20 The one very brief matter, I just was going to request that the
21 Defence confirm or correct, whichever is appropriate, my understanding
22 that the witness was provided statements by another witness which are not
23 in evidence before this Trial Chamber and that some of his comments on
24 those witness's statements relate to material that's not in evidence in
25 this case.
1 MR. IVETIC: I'll have to check during the break and I will
2 endeavour to come back with a complete answer.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, I can tell you that one of the things I
4 also did over the last half an hour was to try to find specific
5 references to 40 prisoners being killed. I looked at the transcript. I
6 had difficulties until now in finding it. I have not started looking at
7 15 people from the city prison yet. But since the witness comments
8 apparently on statements of what he now tells us Mr. Selak, the Chamber
9 also would very much appreciate to know where that -- to find in any
10 material which was admitted into evidence. Because if it's not in
11 evidence, then of course we should not pay attention to it because we're
12 unavailable to verify the basis of it.
13 We'll take a break and we'll resume at 11.00.
14 --- Recess taken at 10.40 a.m.
15 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic.
17 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, while we wait for the witness to come
18 in, I can give some additional information that I've been able to obtain
19 through my preliminary inquiries in the back.
20 The Serbian language transcript of the witness mentioned was the
21 transcript of proceedings from the Tadic case from transcript pages 1221
22 through 1305 of that proceeding because that transcript was available in
23 the Serbian language and was then provided to the witness.
24 In addition, I am --
25 JUDGE ORIE: That's not in evidence, I think. But --
1 MR. IVETIC: Correct. It's not in evidence. I apologise if I
2 did not make that clear.
3 And the -- in terms of what is in evidence, we have a -- excerpts
4 from Osman Selak's diary, which is P253. We have the OTP witness
5 statement of Osman Selak, which is P244. We have also a letter written
6 by Osman Selak, which is D53. And there's some kind of chart that may
7 have comments that were by Mr. Selak. I'm not sure whether that was
8 provided to the witness or not. That is P259. And there's -- I mention
9 these are additional statements of Mr. Selak that were not in evidence,
10 and my staff is assisting to specify those by either ERN number or by
11 date so that I can report back to you with that information.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And were you able to find the specific
13 references to the 40 and the 15?
14 MR. IVETIC: I have not. I'm going to continue to do that while
15 in the courtroom while Mr. Traldi begins his cross to try to assist both
16 the Chamber and the Prosecution in that regard.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that, Mr. Ivetic.
18 Mr. Traldi.
19 MR. TRALDI: Just to briefly respond, not just the 40 and the 15
20 but the material discussed in paragraph 64 through I believe it's 68 of
21 the statement would be relevant and might affect some of the choices I
22 make during cross-examination.
23 As to P259 that Mr. Ivetic mentioned, just for the clarity of the
24 record those were comments that were made by the witness on documents
25 that he reviewed in preparation for his testimony in this case.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Having clarified this, Mr. Traldi, are you
2 ready to cross-examine the witness?
3 MR. TRALDI: Yes, Mr. President.
4 JUDGE ORIE: To the extent not limited by what we discussed
6 Witness, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Traldi. You'll find
7 Mr. Traldi to your right. Mr. Traldi is counsel for the Prosecution.
8 And may I ask you to very much focus on the question. If there's
9 anything to be added wait for follow-up questions, and if at the very end
10 something needs to be added you will have an opportunity to do so. But
11 start by answering the questions.
12 Please proceed.
13 Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi:
14 Q. Good morning, sir. Can you hear me in a language you understand?
15 A. Good morning. I can hear you very well.
16 Q. Sir, I want to start with some questions about the structure of
17 the 1st Krajina Corps. You say in paragraph 10 of your statement, now
18 Exhibit D847, and I'm providing the reference for the record, I have a
19 very simply question. You say that primary command post was in
20 Banja Luka. Where was that?
21 A. We call that the primary command post. It is in building of the
22 former command, otherwise in the centre of the town of Banja Luka.
23 Whoever is familiar with that area will know that we did not change that.
24 And then depending on operations and tasks, this was in the function of
25 the forward command post too.
1 Q. Sir, at this point and I'd ask you to focus very closely on the
2 question. I'd asked you only about the primary command post, or what you
3 describe as the primary command post. When you say "it is in the
4 building of the former command," you're referring to the former command
5 of the 5th Corps of the JNA; right?
6 A. That's right.
7 Q. What was that building called?
8 A. I don't understand that question.
9 Q. I'll move on then. You mention a forward command post was
10 established in Prnjavor in your statement. That forward command post was
11 established in the middle of June 1992; right?
12 A. Yes, that's right. Further on, from June onwards it was in
13 Prnjavor, the forward command post.
14 Q. You mention in paragraph 10 of D847 that the commander and the
15 Chief of Staff of the 1st Krajina Corps were at that forward command post
16 in Prnjavor. That refers to General Momir Talic and General
17 Bosko Kelecevic; right?
18 A. That's right.
19 Q. Now, even during the period when they were based in Prnjavor,
20 General Talic and General Kelecevic would sometimes come back to
21 Banja Luka for meetings or to carry out command responsibilities;
23 A. It's not a rule, but most often reporting would take place where
24 they were, and they would come, in connection with important tasks and
25 activities, to Banja Luka for these meetings.
1 Q. When they came to Banja Luka, would they ever come to the
2 Kozara barracks?
3 A. I find that question to be unclear, not defined.
4 Q. When General Talic and General Kelecevic came to Banja Luka
5 during the period of the war, would they ever visit the Kozara barracks?
6 A. Well, that's what I asked to be defined. They could go there on
7 a task because there were units there that were subordinated. And the
8 buildings where these units were, if necessary they could visit, but I
9 cannot say how often and when. At any rate, they came to the building of
10 the command where I was too because of their own business that they had
11 to carry out and --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, the simple question was whether they ever
13 went to that barracks when visiting. I do understand from your answer
14 that they did.
15 Yes, that would have been the simple answer.
16 Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
17 MR. TRALDI:
18 Q. You mentioned they also visited the building that you were based
19 in. What building was that?
20 A. Precisely this building of the command of the 5th Corps. I don't
21 see what you're asking me. You're asking me for a name, and I don't know
22 what the name of that might have been.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: You know the street address of this building?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the street next to it is
25 called Prvi Krajiski Korpus, and it is perpendicular to this street, this
1 lane, of the former JNA. Well, I never received mail on that address, so
2 I cannot say on the basis of this postal address. I received mail at the
3 military post code and I was there for ten years and even more, and now I
4 cannot tell you the address just --
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, sir. Thank you, sir. Thank you. You
6 don't know the street address.
7 Thank you, Mr. Traldi.
8 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Q. You were based in this building as chief of the quartermaster
10 service. Was the logistics organ of the 1st Krajina Corps based in this
12 A. Yes. Your Honours, the logistics organ and the command of the
13 logistics base. And some other organs, I mean, that were there, but ...
14 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you've answered the question.
15 Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
16 MR. TRALDI:
17 Q. So Colonel Tepsic was also based in this building at the
18 beginning of the war; right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You mentioned the commands of the logistics base. Colonel Selak
21 was also based in this building at the beginning the war then; right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And after he left in July, Colonel Skondric would have been based
24 in the same building as you?
25 A. Correct.
1 Q. Were any of the other organs of the 1st Krajina Corps command
2 based in that building? And I'm referring specifically to the security
3 and intelligence organ, the legal morale and religious affairs organ, the
4 civilian affairs organ, or any other organs you may want to discuss.
5 A. Except for those that were the forward command post, all of those
6 who were from the command of the 1st Corps were there.
7 Q. You mentioned it's on Prvi Krajiski Korpus Street. That's
8 1st Krajina Corps Street; right?
9 A. Now it is called that. I mean, the street that is on the western
10 side. That one is what I know for sure. But as for the rest that you
11 ask me about, I cannot say that with certainty because I don't know
12 street names.
13 Q. Do you recall what street was called before the war?
14 A. Well, now you're asking me something that I cannot remember, yet
16 Q. I'm going to turn now to your responsibilities as chief of the
17 quartermaster service in the 1st Krajina Corps. From whom would you
18 directly receive your tasks when you were chief of the quartermaster
20 A. From a disciplinary and organisational point of view, from
21 Colonel Tepsic, the assistant commander for logistics.
22 Q. Did General Talic ever task you directly or were you always
23 tasked through Colonel Tepsic?
24 A. Almost always and always through my immediate superior who was
25 his assistant commander, Colonel Tepsic.
1 Q. To whom would you report on your work?
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, could you please seek clarification of
3 "almost always and always," which I have some difficulties to understand.
4 MR. TRALDI:
5 Q. Sir, did you mean to say you were always tasked through
6 Colonel Tepsic, your immediate superior, or almost always tasked but
7 sometimes tasked directly by other people?
8 A. Only Colonel Tepsic. But I wouldn't be surprised if I were to
9 find a document here that had to do with my professional line of work
10 containing an order that was issued by my second superior officer.
11 Although, I cannot say Karic. It would be Tepsic always.
12 Q. Would you also report on your work to Colonel Tepsic?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. He received his taskings and reported on his work from
15 General Talic, the corps commander; right?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. Aside from the quartermaster service, the logistics service also
18 had a technical service; right?
19 A. Right.
20 Q. In the beginning of May 1992, the chief of the technical service
21 was Colonel Muharem Talic; right?
22 A. Wait a minute. Muharem Talic? I don't think that would be the
23 last name. Check that.
24 Q. Do you recall the gentleman's last name?
25 A. Well, I cannot recall. But I don't think that it's the same last
1 name as my commander.
2 MR. TRALDI: Well, let's have 65 ter 16612, please, and we can
3 check my notes.
4 Q. While it comes up, in June 1992, the chief of the technical
5 service became Lieutenant-Colonel Dragoljub Jankovic; right?
6 A. I see the signature here. Correct.
7 Q. And this is the note handing over duty or reflecting the
8 hand-over of duty from Colonel Muharem Talic to
9 Lieutenant-Colonel Jankovic; right?
10 A. I allow for the possibility that I was wrong when I said what I
11 said. I really don't remember that that was his last name. We
12 communicated on a first-name basis and that is how we addressed each
14 Q. This gentleman you called Muharem, what was his ethnicity.
15 A. Muslim.
16 Q. And Colonel Dragoljub Jankovic was a Serb; right?
17 A. Correct. He had a mixed marriage.
18 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 16612.
19 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Document 16612 receives exhibit number P6986,
22 Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
24 MR. TRALDI:
25 Q. Now --
1 MR. TRALDI: And I'm done with this document.
2 Q. In 1993 when you became assistant commander for logistics, you
3 would then receive your tasks from General Talic; right?
4 A. I was his assistant commander, and I received my tasks from him.
5 Q. And you would report on your work to him; right?
6 A. I to him, and the chiefs to me.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: This is Muharem Talic?
8 MR. TRALDI: This is -- just for clarity, I'm referring to
9 General Momir Talic, the corps commander.
10 Q. Was that how you understood me, sir?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. When you were assistant commander for logistics, you would
13 receive information about upcoming operations from the corps commander,
14 General Talic; right?
15 A. At the collegium and with the commander, we always examined such
17 Q. And based on the information you received, you would assess
18 logistical needs of the units which would be carrying those operations
19 out; right?
20 A. That's right. On the basis of their reports and requests, we
21 would not assess that. We would have cumulatively the needs of all, and
22 then we would apply ourselves to the meeting of these needs.
23 Q. You'd do that by assigning subordinate logistical units to fill
24 those needs; right?
25 A. I did not assign them within my --
1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please
2 repeat the answer. Come closer to the microphone and speak distinctly.
3 Thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Witness you're invited to come a bit closer to the
5 microphone to repeat your answer.
6 You started by saying, I did not assign them within ... and could
7 you then repeat from what you said?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The gentleman asked me whether I
9 gave assignments to someone. The 14th Logistics Base was the mainstay of
10 my activity, and I would submit my needs to them for realisation.
11 MR. TRALDI:
12 Q. And I'm going to look at just one example, sir.
13 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 18346.
14 Q. And this is coming from the 5th Corps, it's dated the 9th of May,
15 1992, signed by your superior Colonel Tepsic. So it's before the
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. We read here:
19 "On the basis of demonstrated need, and with the goal of raising
20 the level of combat readiness of the Territorial Defence units, pursuant
21 to a verbal order by the commander of the 5th Corps."
22 And then we see that Colonel Tepsic is ordering the distribution
23 to the Kotor Varos Municipal Territorial Defence Staff of a number of
24 weapons and other supplies.
25 This is how the provision of logistical resources to subordinated
1 forces is supposed to work as a standard matter in the JNA and the VRS;
3 A. It's not the best example, but in principle this is one of the
5 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I tender this document.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Document 18346 receives exhibit number P6987,
8 Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: P6987 is admitted.
10 MR. TRALDI:
11 Q. I'm going to turn now to the meetings of the corps commander that
12 you mention in your statement. You refer to a regular meeting at 0715
13 hours in the morning. Where was that meeting held, as of May 1992?
14 A. I have to answer you by saying that I don't know. From May 1992
15 onwards, I was not in that role, and I did not take part in the role of
16 my superior.
17 Q. So you began attending that meeting in February 1993; right? The
18 commanders' morning meeting.
19 A. That goes without saying.
20 Q. Did the assistant commanders of security and intelligence, legal,
21 morale, and religious affairs, and civilian affairs also attend the
22 commanders' morning meeting at that time?
23 A. In principle they did, and they were supposed to be there. If
24 you are mentioning what happened before my take-over of duty, I don't
25 know, but afterwards they did.
1 Q. And at that point, the assistant commander for civilian affairs
2 was Gojko Vujinovic; right?
3 A. That's right.
4 Q. The assistant commander for security and intelligence was
5 Colonel Bogojevic; right?
6 A. Bogojevic Stevan, that's right.
7 Q. And the assistant commander for legal, morale, religious affairs
8 was Milutin Vukelic; right?
9 A. That's right.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Traldi, I'm not sure if all names are
11 correctly recorded.
12 MR. TRALDI: One has just been corrected.
13 Q. Colonel Bogojevic's last name, that's spelled B-o-g-o-j-e-v-i-c;
14 correct, sir?
15 A. Yes. Are you asking me? Yes. As far as I know his name is
16 Stevan, exactly.
17 Q. General Talic ran these meetings; right?
18 A. It was always the corps commander. In his absence when he was
19 prevented from attending, it would be the Chief of Staff.
20 Q. And that was General Kelecevic?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. Would he also attend the meetings even when General Talic was
23 there and running them?
24 A. Yes, correct.
25 Q. And General Talic, or General Kelecevic if he was replacing him,
1 could hand out tasks at these meetings; right?
2 A. In principle, that would be correct. Because that was briefing.
3 Issues were discussed and tasks were handed out.
4 Q. When you say "issues were discussed," would the different sectors
5 report on the work they'd been doing?
6 A. Every chief of sector submitted a report on the work of his
8 Q. Now, I'm going to shift now to a different type of meeting. You
9 mentioned a moment ago a group called the corps commanders' collegium
10 that I understand met weekly. Aside from the chiefs of sector that you
11 mentioned a moment ago, who else would attend these meetings?
12 A. In principle, it was an inner circle: The commander, the Chief
13 of Staff, and his assistants.
14 Q. Did the head of the 14th Logistics Base also attend these
16 A. First of all, he was not the commander of the 14th Logistics Base
17 and he was not a member of the 1st or the 5th Corps. He was never
18 duty-bound do attend those meetings, nor he did. The commander could
19 have invited him when he considered some common issues or when he had the
20 time to give him.
21 MR. TRALDI: Well, could we have paragraph 66 of D847 for the
23 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, when you said he was not the commander, who
24 did you have on your mind?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You did not understand me. He was
1 the commander of the 14th Logistics Base but he was not an organic member
2 of the corps. He was subordinated to his superior command as the --
3 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness slow down, please.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, first of all, you're invited to slow down.
5 But it's still not clear to me whether he was or was not. But who did
6 you have on your mind when you said, as you now clarified, was the
7 commander of the 14th Logistics Base?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was the commander of the 14th
9 Logistics Base.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Who is "he"?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Osman Selak.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
13 Please proceed.
14 MR. TRALDI:
15 Q. Now, in paragraph 66 of your statement here, and can you see it
16 on the screen, you say:
17 "As the commander of the base, he was obliged to attend the
18 weekly meetings of the corps commander's collegium... "
19 That's the statement that you reviewed, made corrections to, and
20 swore was truthful. Do you stand by what you've said here in
21 paragraph 66 of your statement?
22 A. This is a misinterpretation. He could attend. He should have
23 attended once a week. But not at the time when the commander discussed
24 issues with his immediate subordinates.
25 Q. Sir, I'm going to stop you.
1 A. He could have invited him at any other moment --
2 Q. I asked you would the commander of the logistics base attend the
3 collegium. You said back at transcript page 41, line 15, he was never
4 duty-bound to attend those meetings. You say, in paragraph 66, the
5 commander of the logistics base was obliged to attend the weekly
7 So I'm not asking you about what issues were discussed at what
8 time. I am asking you now, having said in your statement that the
9 commander of the logistics base was obliged to attend and then said in
10 your testimony that he was not, which of those answers you stand by,
11 whether the commander of the logistics base was or was not obliged to
12 attend the weekly meeting of the corps commander's collegium.
13 A. When it comes to the collegium meetings, they were chaired by the
14 commander. The questions and issues that he dealt with together with the
15 commander of the logistics base, he found time with the collegium or
16 without the collegium in the way and according to the nature of the tasks
17 that he had to deal with.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, in your statement, to which you attested,
19 you say that the commander of the base was obliged to attend these
20 meetings. Today in your testimony, you told us that he was not obliged.
21 Which of the two is your evidence now today, which of the two is true?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When the commander invited those
23 who were not on the collegium, they had to attend. They did not have to
24 attend all the collegium meetings organised by the commander.
25 JUDGE ORIE: So he was only obliged to attend when invited but
1 not as a routine.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course. And only for those
3 issues that had to be dealt with together with him.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
5 MR. TRALDI:
6 Q. Now, you wouldn't know -- let me actually re-start that question.
7 Did you attend in May and June 1992 the weekly meetings of the corps
8 commander's collegium?
9 A. No, not in May and June 1992.
10 Q. Now, while we're on this area of your statement, you mention in
11 paragraph 65 that prior to the formation of the VRS and --
12 MR. TRALDI: Actually, sorry, paragraph 64.
13 Q. That prior to the formation of the VRS, Colonel Selak would go to
14 Belgrade to brief General Vladan Sljivic, the commander of logistics of
15 the JNA, and his superior. After the VRS was established, Colonel Selak,
16 and then Colonel Skondric who succeeded him, would similarly brief
17 General Djordje Djukic as to the functioning of the 14th Logistics Base
18 in the VRS; right?
19 A. You were mistaken when you read that he was subordinated to the
20 JNA. When he went for briefings in Belgrade with General Sljivic, it is
21 true that when he was commander of the 993rd Logistics Base he was
22 directly subordinated to the assistant commander for logistics, and then
23 when the 14th Logistics Base was set up it was part of the Army of
24 Republika Srpska, and it is understood that as a commander he was
25 duty-bound to report to the assistant commander for logistics of the
1 Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska.
2 Q. Now, I'm going to turn now to the supplies available to the
3 1st Krajina Corps.
4 MR. TRALDI: Could we have 65 ter 09168.
5 Q. As it comes up, Colonel Selak was a Muslim and Colonel Skondric
6 who succeeded him was a Serb; right?
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. And you mentioned Colonel Hasotic a moment ago. He was succeeded
9 by Colonel Vukelic. Colonel Hasotic was a Muslim and Colonel Vukelic was
10 a Serb; right?
11 A. What you're asking me, I believe that that was the case but I'm
12 not sure. But that -- because that happened while I was absent. I know
13 about Hasotic and his duties in the 5th Corps, but I'm not sure what to
14 say about what you are claiming. I believe that that was the case.
15 Vukelic came later.
16 Q. In fact, Vukelic came right around the time that the 5th Corps
17 transitioned to the 1st Krajina Corps; right?
18 A. If that's on the record, which I'm not sure of, then I believe
19 that that was the case.
20 Q. Okay. I'll leave that topic and turn to this document. Now, we
21 see here a report from the 1st Krajina Corps to the Main Staff dated the
22 9th of October, 1992, reporting on the consumption of material in the
23 1st Krajina Corps between May and the beginning of October, 1992. Now
24 directing your attention to the second point, we see total usage of
25 ammunition, and we see immediately below that the 1st Krajina Corps had
1 used about 3.350.000 from 7.62-millimetre automatic pistols during that
2 period; right?
3 A. That's what it says. But obviously this is for automatic rifles,
4 7.62. I can't read anything else. I can't interpret it differently.
5 Q. Well, shortly below that we see a note that almost 24 million
6 rounds were used from a 7.62-millimetre automatic rifle; right?
7 A. I've not seen this before. I see it only now, yes.
8 Q. Turning to page 2 in the English and at the very bottom of page 1
9 in the B/C/S, under support ammunition, we see about 175.000 total mortar
10 shells denoted with MB have been used by the 1st Krajina Corps during
11 this period; right?
12 A. I can't find that. Please guide me to that part. I don't have
13 the second page. I apologise. Mortars 82, is that what you said?
14 Q. It's the bottom of the first page in the B/C/S. And let's take
15 it step by step. I was adding the three numbers together, but we see --
16 A. Yes, I can tell you were adding things.
17 Q. We see about 77.000 60-millimetre mortars have been used, about
18 93.000 82-millimetre mortars, and just over 10.000 120-millimetre
19 mortars; right?
20 A. That's right.
21 Q. And now turning to page 3 in the B/C/S, staying on page 2 in the
22 English. In the middle of the page in the B/C/S we see, combining the
23 two different types of rockets, that about 1800 rockets have been fired
24 during this period; right? By the 1st Krajina Corps.
25 A. Your calculation is good, yes.
1 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I tender this document.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please, can I see the whole of the
4 document? Can I see the signature as well? Show me the entire document
5 including the signature.
6 MR. TRALDI:
7 Q. Sir, there will be times when it's necessary to direct your
8 attention but this is a pretty brief document.
9 MR. TRALDI: So if we could turn to the last page in both
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So what do I need to do? What am I
12 supposed to do here.
13 MR. TRALDI:
14 Q. Here I'm simply showing you this is signed by Colonel Jankovic,
15 the chief of the technical service; right?
16 A. Thank you. This is what I needed, yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Document number 09168 receives exhibit number
19 P6988, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
21 Mr. Traldi, may I take it where the witness apparently says that
22 he sees this document for the first time that -- I mean, for him to
23 confirm that a document reads what it reads, we don't need a witness for
24 that. This Chamber can read itself. Unless there's any follow-up which
25 links the witness -- and you have not asked him whether this might be
1 accurate numbers or not. You didn't ask anything apart from is this what
2 the document reads.
3 MR. TRALDI: Well, I have just one more question about it,
4 Mr. President.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll wait for that.
6 MR. TRALDI:
7 Q. In your statement, you emphasise the logistical difficulties
8 facing the 1st Krajina Corps. It's clear from Colonel Jankovic's report
9 that during this period, the summer of 1992, the 1st Krajina Corps had
10 sufficient resources to use these millions of rounds of ammunition;
12 A. Your question is quite ambiguous and I have to answer. As far as
13 I'm concerned, I've not seen this document before. The chief of service,
14 Jankovic, was in charge, and my superior was Tepsic. You said a lot or a
15 sufficient ammunition, how intensive the fighting was, during what
16 period. Your question and the answer about excessive quantity, always
18 Q. Let me rephrase it very precisely. It's clear from this document
19 that the 1st Krajina Corps had millions of rounds of ammunition,
20 thousands, tens of thousands of mortars, almost 2.000 rockets. It's
21 clear from this document that they had all that because Colonel Jankovic
22 is reporting that they used all of that in this period between May and
23 September; right?
24 A. Excellent. It is possible for the period from May to September.
25 It's a long period.
1 Q. Now, I want to talk about how the logistics sector arranged for
2 logistical supplies now. You discuss the importance of opening the
3 corridor in your statement. One thing opening the corridor allowed the
4 VRS to do was transport material and equipment from Belgrade to
5 Banja Luka; right?
6 A. You're confusing me once again. The line of procurement before
7 the corridor was closed was normal in that way. When the Army of
8 Republika Srpska was established and when the structures were
9 established, the 14th Logistics Base were in charge, and all the
10 requirements by units of the 1st Krajina Corps were reported to the
11 logistics base and then via the Main Staff. It used resources and
12 reserves from the SRJ, i.e., the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. If this
13 is not a complete answer, go on. Tell me what else I need to tell you.
14 Q. That's exactly what I was asking, sir. I'm going to look briefly
15 at one example.
16 MR. TRALDI: Could we have 65 ter 08385.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. And your question is what?
18 MR. TRALDI:
19 Q. Well, first, we see there's a request to you dated the 14th of
20 April, 1994. And we can see at the bottom it's coming from Novak Stanic.
21 Do you recall his position at that time.
22 A. I'll tell you quite precisely. This document was issued by the
23 OG Doboj. It's a regular request for resources. Stanic was a member of
24 the logistics organ of the OG Doboj, I don't know what his duty was, and
25 he submitted a legal request to the corps command with his requirements
1 since during that time, as it seems, he could not --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, the only thing --
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excellent, excellent. Go on. I'm
5 JUDGE ORIE: The only thing you were asked is what the position
6 of Mr. Stanic was at that time. Nothing more. Could you answer that
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't see it here, Judge. But I
9 really believe that he was a member of the logistics sector because he
10 sent me such documents as well.
11 MR. TRALDI:
12 Q. When you say the logistics sector, you're saying he was a member
13 of the logistics sector of Operational Group Doboj; right?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. That was a formation subordinated to the 1st Krajina Corps at the
16 time; right?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. Now, we see at the bottom of the page in the B/C/S and on the
19 second page in English that he's received information from military post
20 1089-18 in Belgrade that:
21 "We can take over the said spare parts and ammunition only with
22 approval of the VRS Main Staff ..."
23 I have two questions for you about this language specifically?
24 First: It's correct that requests for logistic assistance to the
25 FRY had to be routed through the VRS Main Staff; right?
1 A. There's no doubt about that. That's correct. Go on. The next
3 Q. And he's sending it to you as his superior to send it up the
4 chain and get the necessary approvals; right?
5 A. Correct.
6 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I tender this document.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
8 THE REGISTRAR: My excuses. Document 08385 receives exhibit
9 number P6989, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
11 MR. TRALDI: Can 65 ter 31725 be brought to the screen.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President of the Trial Chamber,
13 can I put a question about the previous document, please.
14 JUDGE ORIE: No. You're not in a position to ask questions.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
17 MR. TRALDI:
18 Q. We see here a request dated 20 July 1993 to the military
19 accounting centre in Belgrade, submitting data for active military
20 personnel entitled to an increase in NTS. So my first question for you:
21 What does NTS stand for?
22 A. Let me find it, NT ... a compensation for service, I suppose.
23 Q. And turning to page 2 in both languages.
24 A. I will be happy to see it.
25 Q. We see you signed this request; right?
1 A. Correct. Pursuant to rules and pursuant to the request, I
2 forward this request to my superior, yes.
3 Q. And you're sending it to the military accounting centre in
4 Belgrade because these soldiers in the VRS were being paid by the VJ;
6 A. That's correct. That's what the title says. That's how things
7 were done. And this is correct.
8 Q. You yourself were also being paid by the VJ; right?
9 A. Yes, correct.
10 Q. So were General Talic and Colonel Kelecevic?
11 A. Yes, this is correct. It's implied.
12 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I tender this document.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Before deciding on it, could the witness tell us
14 what AVL stands for?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Active Duty Serviceman.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
17 Madam Registrar.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Document number 31725 receives exhibit number
19 P6990, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And to clarify another abbreviation, at the end
22 of the document in the last paragraph, you see "the compensation of the
23 above listed AVS." What is that?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Active service. Active military
25 service. That should be it.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
2 MR. TRALDI: Can 65 ter 31684 be brought to the screen.
3 Q. And as it comes up, sir, in paragraph 60 of your statement, D847,
4 you mention the destruction of the Ferhadija mosque in Banja Luka. That
5 was not the only mosque destroyed in Banja Luka during the war, was it?
6 A. I learned that it was not the only one. However, I can't tell
7 you how many such facilities were destroyed. I am not in a position to
8 know that, so I can't say anything for a fact.
9 Q. Well, this is a report that you sent to the Main Staff of the VRS
10 and the forward command post of the 1st Krajina Corps on the 7th of May,
11 1993, and it reflects that two other mosques, the Arnaudija mosque and
12 the mosque in Gornji Seher, were destroyed at about the same time as the
13 Ferhadija mosque; right?
14 A. I can see that.
15 Q. Now, in fact, the Chamber has received evidence that there were
16 16 mosques in Banja Luka before the war, and none of them survived the
17 war undamaged. That's true, isn't it?
18 A. I can't say that. I don't know. I just told you that. I don't
19 know if any survived and how badly damaged the others were. However,
20 what you -- you -- we see before us, I signed this document -- can I say
21 something else, please?
22 JUDGE ORIE: Please limit yourself to answering the question.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am -- I signed this as the leader
24 of the duty team based on a report that I received from the field. I
25 only saw that now. I didn't realise that that was the case.
1 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I note it's time for the break. I'd
2 tender this document as the next public Prosecution Exhibit.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Document 31684 receives exhibit number P6991,
5 Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
7 Mr. Amidzic, we take a break. We'd like to see you back in 20
9 [The witness stands down]
10 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at 20 minutes past 12.00.
11 --- Recess taken at 12.00 p.m.
12 --- On resuming at 12.21 p.m.
13 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours while we're waiting for the witness, I
14 can provide some additional information in relation to the inquiry by
15 Mr. Traldi.
16 First of all, the Krajisnik transcript of 25 May 2005, which also
17 is not in evidence in our proceedings, was given to the witness in the
18 B/C/S language.
19 In relation to the paragraphs that Mr. Traldi asked about
20 paragraphs 64 through 71, I can report as follows. In relation to
21 paragraph 66 of the Amidzic statement, I would refer to P244,
22 paragraph 48. In relation to paragraph 65 of the Amidzic statement, I
23 would refer to P244, paragraphs 53, 60, 54. In relation to paragraph 70
24 of the Amidzic statement, I would refer to P244, paragraphs 65 and 83.
25 And in relation to paragraph 71 of the Amidzic statement, I would refer
1 to P244, paragraph 52. And P244 being, of course, the statement of
2 Mr. Selak which was introduced in evidence in our proceedings.
3 And I'm still working on the remaining inquiries that
4 Your Honours had asked about.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that, Mr. Ivetic, for that quick
7 [The witness takes the stand]
8 Mr. Traldi, if you're ready, you may continue.
9 MR. TRALDI: Yes. And our thanks to Mr. Ivetic as well, of
11 Q. Sir, I want to turn now to the military remand prison at
12 Mali Logor which you mention in your statement. Now, you don't mention
13 this in your --
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Which paragraph?
15 MR. TRALDI: 42 through 45.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
17 MR. TRALDI: Of D847, Your Honour.
18 Q. Now, you don't mention this in those paragraphs, but in 1992
19 non-Serbs were detained there and some were abused; right?
20 A. Please repeat the question, especially the introduction to the
21 question. You did not specify the facility or the prison which you're
22 referring to. I don't know which facility you're talking about.
23 Q. Sir, I did specify but I'm happy to do it again. In 1992
24 non-Serbs were detained in the military remand prison in Mali Logor and
25 some were abused there; right?
1 A. No.
2 MR. TRALDI: Can we have Exhibit P3696. It should not be
3 broadcast but can be addressed in open session.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi in order to avoid whatever possible
5 confusion, you said -- one second. You said Mali Logor. Is that the
6 same as Mali Novi Logor for you or as it's later said Novi Mali Logor?
7 MR. TRALDI: That's how I understand it, but I'll ask the
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 MR. TRALDI:
11 Q. Mali Logor and Mali Novi Logor, those aren't two different
12 facilities, are they?
13 A. Your Honour, the full name of the barracks is Mali and Novi
15 JUDGE ORIE: And that's one facility?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
18 MR. TRALDI:
19 Q. So this is daily report from the Manjaca camp operations team to
20 the 1st Krajina Corps command dated the 9th of November, 1992. It refers
21 to processing prisoners of war. Looking at the first paragraph, the
22 second sentence, we read:
23 "There weren't any particularly interesting security intelligence
24 and information that came out from that processing except that it has
25 been noted that prior to arriving to the LRZ, the prisoners have been in
1 prison in Banja Luka where they have been physically abused; they are
2 wearing visible injuries. This is a problem for us because the MKCK
3 delegate from Geneva has access to all such cases and we are then blamed
4 for committing such acts. Please, take measures through the competent
5 organs that during their stay in the VIZ," and that's military remand
6 prison as I understand it, "or other prison in Banja Luka prisoners are
7 not maltreated, i.e., are not physically abused if that would result in
8 virtual injuries."
9 So my question to you is just was this information that prisoners
10 at Manjaca had been abused in Banja Luka in Mali Logor beforehand
11 something you were aware of before your testimony here today?
12 A. Your Honours, the report that I have before me, I've not seen it
13 before. From the Manjaca camp, it was sent by the security organ to his
14 superior in the 1st Corps command. This kind of information is not
15 broadcast. It is sent only to the security organ who then sends it to
16 his own superior.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, whatever it is, the question was whether
18 you were aware of this having happened. If you are, please say yes; if
19 you were not aware --
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's an answer --
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
23 JUDGE ORIE: -- to the question.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
25 JUDGE ORIE: No one blames you for not knowing.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.
2 JUDGE ORIE: It's just that we'd like to know.
3 Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
4 MR. TRALDI:
5 Q. And in the third paragraph here, we see a note about an emergency
6 in the LRZ. That's referring to Manjaca; right?
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. It says a prisoner was wounded because he accidentally came into
9 the minefield where he stepped on a mine which cut off both his legs.
10 There were mines around Manjaca camp; right?
11 A. I assume that on the basis of this report because that is what is
13 MR. TRALDI: I'm done with this document.
14 Q. And, sir, I'm going to focus now on Manjaca. As an introductory
15 matter your evidence appears to be, and this is in paragraph 38 of your
16 statement, that Manjaca was closed in the presence of the ICRC in
17 November 1993 [sic]. Now you are referring to the release of over 700
18 prisoners on or about the 14th of November of that year; right?
19 A. I am not referring to 700. I am referring to the disbandment and
20 to the principle of all for all. That is to say, full release.
21 Q. Let me stop you there.
22 A. Full release of POWs from the camp and --
23 Q. What I'm going to put to you, and I'll show you a couple of
24 documents about this in a moment, what I'm putting to you is that you're
25 mistaken that while 700 or so prisoners were released in November, the
1 camp, in fact, was closed in December. That's true; right?
2 A. Please, could you show me where I referred to 700 in my
4 Q. I think perhaps you've misunderstood my question. I'm going to
5 ask again and ask you to focus on it as I'm asking it right now. Sir, it
6 is not true that Manjaca was disbanded in November. In fact, while 700
7 people were released then, Manjaca was only disbanded in December 1992;
9 A. I had this information and I used that and I stand by it now.
10 Whether it is correct, you can check. If you have exact information then
11 we have to trust that. I wrote this statement and used the information
12 that I had.
13 MR. TRALDI: Well, just very briefly let's have P3886.
14 Q. This will be a daily combat report from the 1st Krajina Corps
15 dated the 18th of December, 1992, signed by Colonel Jankovic. And it
16 notes at point 3 --
17 A. If you show me the second page, I will see who signed this.
18 Q. Sir, I'm directing your attention at the moment to point 3, and
19 that says:
20 "With the release of 419 prisoners from the Manjaca camp, the
21 camp was disbanded."
22 So this, in December 1992, this is, in fact, when the camp was
23 disbanded; right?
24 A. It sounds that way. This is information from this report, and I
25 believe that that's the way it is.
1 Q. Now, you weren't personally involved in the disbandment, it
2 appears; is that right?
3 A. I wasn't.
4 Q. So when you say it was disbanded in the presence of the
5 Red Cross, the Chamber has received evidence that, in fact, several
6 hundred prisoners were transferred to other camps and hidden from the
7 Red Cross. Were you aware of that?
8 A. I cannot say. I didn't know that and I don't know it now because
9 this is the first I hear of it. You're the first person who has just
10 said this to me.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Traldi, I have -- I think there is something
12 you should clarify.
13 It is a regular combat report. Under item 2, I see: "No major
14 changes since the last report," and then, "3, with the release of the 419
15 prisoners," and so on.
16 Which period was covered by this report because there is no date
17 when these prisoners were released?
18 MR. TRALDI:
19 Q. Sir, based on your knowledge, how often were these regular combat
20 reports sent from the 1st Krajina Corps to the Main Staff?
21 A. It says here that it's a regular combat report. It was sent on a
22 daily basis.
23 Q. Now, I want to turn to the re-opening of Manjaca camp in 1993.
24 You discuss this in paragraph 49 of your statement, D847.
25 MR. TRALDI: And I'd ask that Exhibit P245 be brought to the
2 While it is, you say, in pertinent part:
3 "I would like to note that they," these members of the HVO who
4 were held in Manjaca in 1993, "did not have the status of war prisoners,
5 nor was Manjaca at that time functioning as a camp for prisoners of war."
6 Is that your evidence?
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. Now, this is an order from General Talic dated the 7th of June,
9 1993. We see it's sent to the assistant commander of logistics of the
10 1st Krajina Corps. On the 7th of June, 1993 that was you; right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. This order is titled: "Opening a Camp for Prisoners of War at
13 Manjaca." In point 1, General Talic orders you to:
14 "Prepare an area for HVO prisoners of war at Manjaca ..."
15 In point 2, he designates Colonel Bozidar Popovic camp commander.
16 It's -- it's clear that General Talic considered these people
17 prisoners and considered himself to be ordering you to open a prisoner of
18 war camp; right?
19 A. No, that's not right.
20 Q. When he says "prepare an area for HVO prisoners of war" in point
21 1, he's discussing the people who were held at Manjaca in June of 1993,
22 and he's referring to them as prisoners of war; correct?
23 A. No. Dear gentleman, this is what it says here:
24 "Prepare the premises where POWs had been put up before."
25 That means, Judges, Your Honours, may I continue? It means that
1 the premises were supposed to be prepared so that people who would come
2 in a completely different situation but their stay in these premises
3 should be ensured through the security service until solutions are found,
4 the ones that I spoke to earlier.
5 After an order concerning co-ordination - may I proceed? -
6 everything should be prepared for their evacuation to their units; that
7 is to say, their security service and the POW camps should be prepared
8 for these people. I categorically state that they did not have the
9 status of POWs and the camp was not used for these purposes, and they
10 were not processed either.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could you please read item 7 of this order. Just
12 read that for us so that we understand what is written there. Read it
13 aloud, please.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I see what is it written there
15 but --
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please read aloud what is written there.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Treat the prisoners of war
18 completely in accordance with the provisions of the Geneva Convention."
19 Again, I'm saying they surrendered. They surrender their lives
20 to us and we were duty-bound to --
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I'm not asking you to explain your understanding.
22 I just wanted to know, did you just read prisoners of war?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What is written.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Prisoners of war?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's what's written.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But ...
3 MR. TRALDI: Could we have 65 ter 30196.
4 Q. Now, this is a daily combat report from the 1st Krajina Corps to
5 the Main Staff dated the 8th of June, 1993, the next day.
6 MR. TRALDI: Turning to page 2 in the English but on page 1 in
7 the B/C/S and at the bottom of section 2 in both languages.
8 Q. General Talic reports:
9 "An LRZ has been formed at Manjaca ..."
10 An LRZ is a prisoner of war camp; right?
11 A. That's what we said.
12 Q. He says that camp "... will put up 529 HVO ... and 380 civilians
13 fit for combat, who surrendered to the units of OG Vlasic. They were
14 transferred to the Manjaca LRZ."
15 So it's clear that these 900 or so people were being held in a
16 prisoner of war camp at Manjaca; right?
17 A. That's not right.
18 Q. I'd like to you explain that answer, sir.
19 A. The name is still LRZ but the people there are a completely
20 different category. They were not sent there as POWs and they were not
21 processed, and I see that it is still being called a POW camp, but their
22 function -- I mean, its function at that time was not fully that of a POW
23 camp and members of the HVO were not treated as POWs.
24 Q. The civilians it says deemed fit for combat were ethnic Croats;
1 A. These civilians, sir, were within the population that was being
2 saved, together with those who had fled from the Lasva river valley and
3 they, as military-age men, would be sent with members of the HVO in
4 accordance with the aforementioned.
5 Q. I have two questions about that. First, it's correct that they
6 were ethnic Croats; right?
7 A. According to this, and according to my information, that is
9 Q. Second, you say they, as military-age men, would be sent with
10 members of the HVO and were sent with members of the HVO to the prisoner
11 of war camp at Manjaca. It's correct, isn't it, that in 1992, when
12 Manjaca had previously been opened, it also housed a large number of
13 military-age men who were sent there together with fighters but were not
14 themselves fighters; right?
15 A. You have so complicated this question. Let's deal with this
16 element by element.
17 Q. Sure. You said a moment ago, at transcript page -- temporary
18 transcript page 63, lines 16 through 18, that these civilians were sent
19 to Manjaca camp together with members of the HVO.
20 So you made clear military-age men who were civilians were being
21 sent there.
22 My question for you is: In 1992, the same thing happened.
23 Military-age men who were civilians and not fighters were detained at
24 Manjaca in large numbers; right?
25 A. I cannot assert that because I did not have this information.
1 And this category, I mean -- I mean, of POWs, they were brought in by the
2 civilian police as well. And I'm not sure about what you have been
3 claiming and which category this is and when this happened. But what you
4 are claiming is possible. At one point in time the civilian police did
5 bring in able-bodied men, whether they wore civilian clothing or
6 uniforms, I cannot say. And also I cannot say where it was that they had
7 been taken prisoner.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I ask a few questions, please.
9 Sir, you talked about people of Croat ethnicity surrendering and
10 being kept at Manjaca but not as a military camp.
11 When did this take place when these people surrendered to you?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the information I have here
13 is June 1993.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: 1993. Not 1992.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it's written that way.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, I'm asking you from your knowledge, not from
17 what you are reading. You told -- you testified about people
18 surrendering and being kept at Manjaca. When was that?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, precisely, I'm linking this
20 to the date when I wrote this.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: And I'm asking you was it June 1992 or 1993?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it's written there, 1993.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: 1993. 1993. Thank you so much.
24 How many times did people surrender to you during June 1993 --
25 surrender to Manjaca during 1993, in June?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge, sir, this is not -- or
2 rather, this is not surrender but basically salvation for people from
3 threatened areas. They wanted to save their own lives and the lives of
4 their family members. And then for the time being, we put them up on the
5 premises of the former POW camp because we had no other premises. I've
6 already said this, and --
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: thank you so much. Thank you so much. Okay.
8 They voluntarily turned in -- your statement says prior to that they
9 voluntarily turned in their personal weapons and the list of personnel.
10 What did they do? Didn't you say they surrendered? They just came there
11 to ask for refuge, isn't it?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, precisely, Judge.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But also they made up their own
15 list and handed over their personal weapons and they were no longer
16 capable. And then they --
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Thank you so much. You've answered my
18 question. I'm asking you these questions because this paragraph that you
19 were referred to where it says prisoners of war, the LRZ, has been formed
20 in Manjaca which will put up 529 HVO and 380 civilians fit for combat.
21 It says these people had surrendered to the units of the OG Vlasic.
22 It looks like are you talking about the same -- this -- these
23 people are the same people that you are referring to in your testimony.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge, sir, I don't see where the
25 problem is. They were seeking salvation and they came to the line of our
1 forces and they surrendered together with their civilians and families.
2 And they were seeking salvation. Of course that they turned themselves
3 into our hands so that we could take care of them. There wasn't any
4 combat there for them to surrender.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I just would like to ask you why then, you said
7 on page 64, lines 21 and 22, and I quote:
8 "And I also --" sorry.
9 "And also I cannot say where it was that they had been taken
11 This is what you just said a minute ago.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge, sir, I was speaking of that
13 category that the Prosecutor mentioned, that during 1992 these categories
14 or groups were brought in and they were civilians. I'm speaking about
15 these people. A year before that it was the civilian police that brought
16 them in, and I don't know where they had been taken prisoner and under
17 what circumstances and whether they had been tortured, and I don't know
18 about all the things that happened.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you for that clarification.
20 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I'd tendered this document.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Document number 30196 receives exhibit number
24 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
25 MR. TRALDI:
1 Q. Now I'm going to focus, sir, on events at Manjaca in 1992.
2 In paragraph 37 of your statement, you say:
3 "Moreover, we clearly informed everyone that the conditions we
4 provided were the maximum that we could do and that anything that can be
5 additionally arranged through humanitarian organisations was allowed, and
6 they put it in practice."
7 I think it's clear from your testimony but I'd just ask you to
8 confirm, the 1st Krajina Corps informed people that you believed you were
9 doing all you could because there were complaints about the conditions in
10 Manjaca camp; right?
11 A. You can take it that way too, but I was personally in the
12 presence of all of those who followed me, and when there would be any
13 objections to security - and I said this personally - in terms of
14 improving life and conditions, everything you can, secure that. That
15 will be allowed. Your arrivals. It is sufficient for you to announce
16 yourselves and you will be allowed to come. I don't know of any offers
17 to be made to POW camps that had been refused. That's what we did.
18 Q. Well, let's look at one occasion that you went to Manjaca.
19 MR. TRALDI: Could we have 65 ter 30223, please.
20 Q. This is a daily report from Manjaca camp dated the 18th of June,
21 1992. Directing your attention to page 2 in both languages.
22 A. I don't see the second page.
23 Q. I can say at the bottom of the first page in the B/C/S, it begins
24 discussing a visit to the camp by members of Merhamet. Here at the
25 top --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Could we move back to the first page in B/C/S.
2 You would like the witness to look at --
3 MR. TRALDI: I -- actually, the sentence that I wanted to point
4 him to is right here at the top of page 2.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And the previous page, the Merhamet is
6 mentioned. The visit of the camp by members of Merhamet.
7 Yes, please.
8 MR. TRALDI:
9 Q. Here at the top of page 2, we read:
10 "From our side, the talks were attended by Colonel Tepsic,"
11 that's your immediate superior, right, at the time?
12 A. Tepsic. Yes.
13 Q. Colonel Amidzic, that's you; right?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. And Lieutenant-Colonel Andric. What was his position?
16 A. Lieutenant-Colonel Andric, he was -- now I cannot say exactly,
17 but in the logistics base, the quartermaster service for food provisions.
18 Q. Now, below --
19 A. I beg your pardon. Logistics base, yes.
20 Q. Is that the 14th Logistics Base?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now, below that the report describes what the members of Merhamet
23 saw, and I'll get to that in a second. But first, you recall being part
24 of this visit; right?
25 A. I cannot recall a specific visit but this is possible because I
1 went several times. I claim that and I stand by that.
2 Q. Do you recall going with members of Merhamet including
3 Adil Mehic, Esad Bajric, Imam Haljo Halilovic and lawyer Amir Djonlic
4 just a couple of weeks after the camp was opened?
5 A. As for the names of the persons who went to visit, I cannot
6 remember them. Especially consisting of several members, well, that is
7 correct and it's possible that it's the names that you read out.
8 Q. We read here:
9 "The members of Merhamet toured all the pavilions and the field
10 kitchen and saw for themselves what the prisoners' living and working
11 conditions were like. They talked briefly to a group of prisoners who
12 spoke of the problems they and other prisoners had. They spoke of the
13 poor quality of food and living quarters (leaking) and that they were not
14 able to contact their families."
15 You were aware as of mid-June 1992 that prisoners in Manjaca were
16 reporting they were receiving a poor quality of food; right?
17 A. That's why I said what I did. The food was poor for them as well
18 as it was for our fighters. That was all we could give them. But then,
19 I told everybody that everything that could be provided for this category
20 of people should be provided for them, and if you want to bring
21 something, they will be given that. In the field kitchen in the presence
22 of those people whom I can't name or say, that those were the people who
23 were listening to me when I said that.
24 Q. I take it you were aware that they were reporting they were
25 receiving poor quality food. Were you also aware as of mid-June 1992
1 that prisoners in Manjaca were living in quarters that were leaking?
2 A. The information about the roofs leaking, I didn't know then, I
3 don't know it now. I remind you and the Judges that this is a report
4 from the intelligence organ to which was sent along the line of security
5 to the chief of the service in the corps. That's why I did not see the
6 document before.
7 Q. So this is one of the times that you discussed at temporary
8 transcript page 12 today when you said that some of the people who
9 escorted you to Manjaca described differently what they saw there than
10 you did. This time it's the staff of Manjaca camp itself that's
11 describing the conditions differently than you are; right?
12 A. This is in the report that I did not see before. I don't know
13 who they said that to. We saw the same thing. However, we described
14 things differently and we wrote about them differently.
15 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 30223.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Document number 30223 receives exhibit number
18 P6993, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
20 One question, Witness. Did you see that the accommodation was
21 leaking, or did you not?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I inspected all the
23 rooms where they were. I didn't enter all the buildings, but in any case
24 I didn't see any such thing.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
1 Mr. Ivetic.
2 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, just for clarity of the record when
3 Prosecution counsel at temporary transcript page 70, lines 21 through 25,
4 asked the question of the witness, he is misrepresenting the evidence on
5 two scores: The witness has already testified in a previous line that he
6 did not see this document before, therefore it could not be the basis of
7 his comments in the statement; and the witness testified rather clearly
8 today that his comments in relation to paragraphs 39 and 40 related to
9 the statement of Osman Selak, not some other statement.
10 So I think that the question mis -- as represented misstates the
11 record on two scores.
12 MR. TRALDI: I disagree, Your Honours. At first, I don't believe
13 I suggested that this document was the basis of the witness's comment
14 that people who visited him described the camp differently. I believe I
15 suggested it was an example of occasion when people who were there and
16 saw the same things described them differently. In this case, the staff
17 of the camp.
18 Secondly, the witness's comments that I referred to were at
19 temporary transcript page 12, where he used the words, I'm afraid I'm
20 paraphrasing, that I used. I understand and agree with Mr. Ivetic that
21 paragraphs 39 and 40 he's clarified refer to Colonel Selak only.
22 MR. IVETIC: And paragraph 12 -- sorry. Temporary transcript
23 page 12 is precisely asking about these paragraphs.
24 MR. TRALDI: I -- I'd be inclined to leave it there, unless
25 Your Honours wish further submissions in that respect.
1 JUDGE ORIE: If you give me one second to re-read the relevant
2 portion. Well, the question was about Selak. The answer, unfortunately
4 You may proceed.
5 MR. TRALDI:
6 Q. The Chamber has received evidence --
7 MR. TRALDI: And I refer, for instance, to Exhibit P3873.
8 Q. -- that after this visit, members of Merhamet met with
9 General Talic and told him that the prisoners they saw at Manjaca were
10 peaceful citizens, that they'd been beaten up and starved, and 30
11 per cent of them had serious injuries, and that in that their view the
12 accommodation in the camp was clearly contrary to the regulations of the
13 Geneva Convention.
14 So, Merhamet also described this visit very differently than
15 you're describing it to the Trial Chamber today; right?
16 A. No, that's not right. As far as I know, and I was not present at
17 that meeting with the mufti and a number of intellectuals, the attendees
18 discussed the entire situation. They complained about other camps, and
19 they implored with the commander, if possible, to try and improve the
20 living conditions of those people as well. As far as I know, in that
21 part, the commander did promise that he would try to exert influence on
22 Mr. Zupljanin and send a request to him to that effect.
23 Second of all, this was an integral part of what is the
24 characteristic of Manjaca camp itself. They thanked us for the most
25 appropriate treatment that inmates were receiving in that camp. In
1 return, the commander told them and implored with them to control Muslim
2 extremists, because they didn't have anything against the army, the
3 Muslim army itself. It was just the Muslim extremists that had to be
4 controlled in order to maintain peace.
5 And as for such characteristics of Manjaca at that time, I did
6 not come across any of them and -- and I can't confirm the allegations
8 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could I seek clarification.
9 You said you were not present at that meeting, and then you told
10 us what happened at the meeting, they complained about other camps and
11 they implored with the commander if possible to try and improve the
12 living conditions of those people as well.
13 Now, there are two questions: First of all, how would you know
14 if you were not present? Let me first ask you that.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I read the notes made by the
16 assistant for morale guidance who was present, Mr. Vukelic. I can't tell
17 you from what archives, but I know that that note mentions the mufti and
18 others. If you were to ask me to repeat their names, I could not. But
19 as for the contents of the note, I can give you a whole list of the
20 things that were noted.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Now, the question simply was whether the report is
22 contradicting the other reports not on what happened. And now I have
23 another question.
24 You said that they would try and improve the living conditions of
25 those people as well.
1 If you say as well, those people, would then the Manjaca people
2 also have been discussed, or were just others discussed?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge, sir, all the issues were
4 discussed. Those that they wanted to discuss. I did not find as many
5 objections against Manjaca. I came across their request -- requests for
6 the improvement of conditions in the other camps that were controlled by
7 civilians, i.e., the civilian police.
8 JUDGE ORIE: What objections against Manjaca you found?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nothing of any significance.
10 JUDGE ORIE: You said: I did not find as many objections against
11 Manjaca. Whether significant or not, what --
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is okay, yes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: -- did you -- yes, but what did you then find as
14 objections against Manjaca?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me tell you, please.
16 There were objections, first of all, that people were kept there
17 who were under age and who were over the age of 60. That there are some
18 sick people at -- this is a priority and that this should be dealt with
19 on first release. The commander expressly said that they would be
20 transported as soon as the commission processed and triaged them and sent
21 their proposal to the International Red Cross for the problem to be
22 resolved as soon as possible.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
24 MR. TRALDI:
25 Q. I have a couple of follow-up questions on that material, sir.
1 First, who provided you Colonel Vukelic's notes of the meeting to
3 A. In some archives or at the command. They were not sent to me. I
4 just had them. I was interested in that.
5 Q. Roughly what year did you locate them in the archives in the
7 A. I can't say. I was still in service. Those notes were
8 handwritten. I can remember that. The memorandum issued by the
9 gentleman who visited the general also exists. I'm sure that it is in
10 the archives somewhere. Their own memorandum, and I'm sure that it
11 mentions what the situation was, as well as their requests. Also the
12 notes that I read, the handwritten notes, mention that memorandum.
13 MR. TRALDI: Well, let's look at P3873 then.
14 And, Your Honours, I admit I've forgotten whether I tendered this
15 document, and if I have not I would ask to do so now.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
17 MR. TRALDI: I'm told by my boss that I have remembered to tender
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then there's no need to do it again. But
20 perhaps it would be time for a break.
21 Could you give us any estimate, Mr. Traldi, as far as time is
23 MR. TRALDI: I expect approximately 10 or 15 minutes after the
24 break, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 Witness, we'll take a break, and we will resume at -- after 20
3 [The witness stands down]
4 Mr. Ivetic, could you give us an indication as far as timing is
6 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honours. I would think 15 to 20 minutes.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Which leaves it open whether the next witness
8 should remain stand by or not.
9 MR. IVETIC: Correct, correct. I think we should probably keep
10 on stand by.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 MR. IVETIC: I --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Well, 10 to 15 minutes brings us to ten minutes to
14 2.00. Another 15 to 20 minutes brings us to five minutes after -- ten
15 minutes after 2.00.
16 MR. TRALDI: I can say I'll be more like 15 than 10,
17 Mr. President. [Overlapping speakers].
18 JUDGE ORIE: Then I think we should inform the Victims and
19 Witness Section that we'll not start the examination of the next witness
21 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 And if I can also give information. This may help Mr. Traldi in
23 his cross. The source for paragraphs 39 and 40 of this witness's
24 statement is the 2001 statement of Mr. Selak, which we have just uploaded
25 and released as 1D5307 so that it is available to be viewed.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And is therefore not evidence.
2 MR. IVETIC: Not in evidence, that's correct.
3 MR. TRALDI: And we thank Mr. Ivetic.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We take a break and we resume at 25 minutes to
5 2.00. And I would urge the parties to see whether we can conclude the
6 testimony of this witness today.
7 --- Recess taken at 1.17 p.m.
8 --- On resuming at 1.39 p.m.
9 JUDGE ORIE: While waiting for the witness to enter the
10 courtroom, I'd like to briefly deal with D773, which is a document which
11 was initially MFI'd pending an English translation.
12 The translation has since been received and there are no
13 objections to the translation, if the Chamber understands well.
14 Therefore, Madam Registrar is hereby instructed to add doc ID 1D19-0081
15 to D773. In an informal communication, the Prosecution requested to be
16 permitted to make further submissions in relation to this document before
17 the Chamber decides on submission, and the Chamber hereby sets a deadline
18 of the 19th of December, 2014, for these submissions.
19 [The witness takes the stand]
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, please proceed.
21 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Mr. President. Could we have P3873,
23 Q. While it comes up, sir, I'm going to be focusing on the meeting
24 that the Merhamet representatives had with General Talic. You said aside
25 from Manjaca they had more serious complaints about other camps as far as
1 you knew. What other camps do you know them to have complained about
2 during that meeting?
3 A. I don't know.
4 Q. Okay. Then I'll look at what they did say about Manjaca, and
5 this is a document coming from Merhamet and summarising this meeting,
6 these talks, on the 22nd of June, 1992. Directing your attention to the
7 fourth paragraph, reads:
8 "Gratitude was expressed to the general for enabling a visit to
9 the 'captured' Muslims and Croats who were in the military base in
10 Dobrinja, (Manjaca). The general was informed of a few particular
11 characteristics: (A) the overwhelming majority of the captives are in
12 fact peaceful citizens who were previously been called to a meeting in
13 their local communes (Gornja Sanica Sanski Most and others) by the
14 current Serbian authorities, and were then arrested en mass or were
15 picked up from their houses and so on; (B) they were treated terribly
16 when they were delivered to the camp. They were missing shoes, missing
17 some the their clothes, beaten up, starved, and so on. About 30 per cent
18 of them had serious injuries (fractured ribs, jaws, hands)."
19 My question to you is: How is it that you did not also learn of
20 these problems on the same visit four days earlier that the Merhamet
21 representatives made to Manjaca?
22 A. Whose information is this?
23 Q. Document comes from Merhamet. And if we can see the signatures,
24 we'll see it's signed by several of the people mentioned on the top.
25 A. I can see that. Yes, yes, I can see that. I did not attend at
1 that meeting. I read information in a way I did, and I've told you about
2 that. And let me answer this last part of your question -- or rather,
3 the first part of your question which is much more interesting: Those
4 who arrested and brought people in, all that happened outside of the POW
5 camp Manjaca before those people were taken over, and this statement
6 refers to the thereafter. I could not be aware of all those details. It
7 was not in the nature of my work to pay so much attention to so many
8 details in order to be able to be aware of them.
9 Second of all, Talic did not invite me to that meeting and
10 therefore I can't tell you anything else that I -- than I did. I
11 understand. Originally I did not have this information, so I cannot
12 interpret this, nor can I testify about how I couldn't. Simply that
13 information was not accessible to me.
14 Q. That completes my questions on this document.
15 MR. TRALDI: Could we have Exhibit P2880 now.
16 Q. And, sir, to try to finish your testimony today, I'm going to ask
17 that you follow my direction to the portions of the document that I'm
18 interested in asking about.
19 This is going to be a letter dated the 7th of August from the
20 Red Cross, forwarded from the Red Cross, to President Karadzic.
21 A. Okay.
22 MR. TRALDI: Can we have page 3 in the English and 5 in the
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Okay. Is that the page you want?
25 I still have -- okay.
1 MR. TRALDI:
2 Q. So here we've got -- this is not the page I'm looking for, I'm
4 MR. TRALDI: So I'll ... just on -- at -- out of the possibility
5 that I might have asked for the wrong page, I'm looking for a number 2
6 describing what they've seen on detainees.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In English, you mean?
8 MR. TRALDI: It -- we'll do that my both languages. My notes
9 suggest that that's on page 3 in the English and 5 in the B/C/S. I'm
10 told it's 6 in the B/C/S and not 5. Let's work from the B/C/S in the
11 interests of time.
12 Q. Below the number 2, do you see that the Red Cross is saying
13 they've observed frequent and widespread traces of recent and often
14 severe beatings on the detainees?
15 A. In which paragraph is that? I can't find it.
16 Q. Second paragraph under point 2, treatment. "All eight delegates
17 present in camp observed on detainees frequent and widespread traces of
18 recent and often severe beatings; these most often were fresh hematomas
19 inflicted in a time-period since arrival at Manjaca."
20 So I take it you've seen it. The Red Cross is also describing
21 what they saw on their visits very differently than you do; right?
22 A. And your question to me is what?
23 Q. Like -- like Merhamet and the camp guards, the Red Cross has a
24 very different description of what they saw on their visits to Manjaca
25 than you have; correct?
1 A. Not correct. I said what I did about what I saw, and here the
2 Red Cross wrote to the president what they saw. One should take a look
3 of the records when those people entered the camp and when they were
4 processed and then compare them with these here. Then I could say
5 something. Then I could tell you what they saw and I didn't, and vice
6 versa, what I saw and they didn't.
7 Q. Did --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could I ask you a simple question. They
9 report that they saw a lot of people with visible remains of being
10 beaten. Now you told us that you went to the camp as well and that you
11 were there. You never saw anyone with the bruises and the signs of
12 having been beaten recently?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't say that I did not see it.
14 But I did not see the traces of recent beatings. I didn't see that.
15 That's not the way I saw things.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, so you saw people with visible signs of
17 having been beaten?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I told you, Your Honour, one should
19 take a look at the documents which were drafted by the organs who were
20 responsible for the triage of those persons on their admission.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Witness -- Witness, I'm not --
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't -- I don't have any other
23 answer, sir.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, don't tell us what we have to look at.
25 We'll certainly look at everything that is available. Don't worry about
1 that. I just wanted to establish that you had seen people in Manjaca
2 with visible signs of having been beaten. Is that well understood? And
3 if so, could you tell us?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, you misunderstood me. I did
5 not see visible signs of people having been beated. I'm talking about
6 the circumstances under which the International Red Cross wrote to the
7 president and told him that they had seen things. I believe that they
8 paid more attention and saw many more details. But, Your Honour, I
9 cannot affirm that in just one sentence or one word. I did not see any
10 such thing.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I asked you the following. I said:
12 "You never say anyone with the bruises and signs of having been
13 beaten recently?"
14 And then you answered:
15 "I can't say that I did not see it," which is understood by me
16 that you may have seen it or have seen it.
17 And now at the same time when specifically asked whether you saw
18 it, you say, no, I didn't see it. That is confusing me slightly. Did
19 you see any persons in Manjaca camp with visible signs of having been
20 beaten such as bruises, hematoma.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To be very concrete, I didn't see
23 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Fine.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was with those people --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I -- that's an answer to my question.
1 Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
2 MR. TRALDI:
3 Q. Sir, I'm going to be very focused and just simply put to you this
4 next point. The Chamber has received evidence that the 1st Krajina Corps
5 was informed that prisoners Esad Bender and Omer Filipovic had been
6 killed there. Were you also aware of that?
7 A. No.
8 Q. So information about the abuse or murder of prisoners at Manjaca,
9 that wouldn't have been shared with you in your capacity as the chief of
10 the quartermaster service?
11 A. The answer could be this: The information was not available
12 to -- it -- me because of its confidentiality. This information went
13 along the security line, and we could not provide the information because
14 that information was forwarded to the command of the 1st Krajina Corps,
15 i.e., to its Chief of Staff.
16 Q. Finally and directly related to logistics, the Chamber has
17 received evidence that the 1st Krajina Corps was aware --
18 MR. TRALDI: And I'm referring now to Exhibits P232 and 3128.
19 Q. -- that the water supply system in Manjaca wasn't working. Were
20 you aware of that?
21 A. There were occasional problems with providing water and the rest.
22 Whenever there were problems of that kind, I was informed about that
23 along the lines of communication.
24 Q. And, sir, just to be fair to you, I'm going to put to you, it is
25 not credible that all these people on visits with you saw signs of fresh
1 bruising on prisoners and you didn't see anything. Your evidence on that
2 is not credible, is it?
3 A. No.
4 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I have no further questions.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I have one brief matter to ask the witness about.
7 Earlier this morning, sir, you challenged the term "about 40"
8 people were killed, the term used by Mr. Selak. How many, if any, people
9 were killed in Manjaca to your knowledge?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said a while ago, Your Honour, I
11 was not informed about the murder of any one person in Manjaca. This
12 document that was shown to me explains how that information was --
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I'm not asking you about any document. To your
14 knowledge how many, if any, were killed?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, didn't [as interpreted]. I
16 know that I don't know of any case of murder in the Manjaca camp.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. You don't know that. You know that
18 you don't know. Thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: I have one short follow-up question.
20 You used the expression "murder" --
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.
22 JUDGE ORIE: One second.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me.
24 JUDGE ORIE: You used the expression "murder." Were you -- you
25 do not understand me? You now do?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not hear the first part,
2 Judge, sir.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. I'll repeat it.
4 You said you don't know of any case of murder. Did you know of
5 any other death of any of the persons that were in Manjaca?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Judge, sir.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
8 Mr. Ivetic.
9 MR. IVETIC: If we can call up P6993 and go to page 2 of the
10 document in both languages.
11 Re-examination by Mr. Ivetic:
12 Q. You were asked by my colleague about the visit wherein members of
13 Merhamet toured the Manjaca prisoner of war camp with yourself and
14 others. I'm calling up that same document which the Prosecution put
15 great weight on as being opposite to --
16 MR. IVETIC: If we can go do page 2.
17 Q. Opposite to your testimony. And I'd like to ask you about the
18 assessment in that document, which was the line where Mr. Traldi stopped
19 reading from the document and did not want this to come into the record.
20 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, I've -- I didn't object to the comment
21 before, but we tendered the whole document. The idea that we were trying
22 to prevent the line from coming into the record is, in my view,
23 inappropriate. We tendered that line as well as the rest of the
25 MR. IVETIC: It was not presented to the witness and it was asked
1 that this witness is contrary to the witness's report, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi stopped reading from the document, and
3 thereby the part read is not part of the transcript of this hearing.
4 MR. IVETIC: Correct.
5 JUDGE ORIE: That's what it is. Well, the wordings you used
6 could be interpreted in a different way and apparently Mr. Traldi did.
7 The matter has been hereby rectified.
8 Please proceed.
9 MR. IVETIC:
10 Q. If we can look at the last line of the paragraph that Mr. Traldi
11 was reading to you, and again this is the assessment of the camp staff:
12 "In our assessment, the representatives of Merhamet and
13 representatives of the prisoners of war were basically happy with the
14 conditions prevailing in the Manjaca prisoner of war camp."
15 Sir is this assessment by the camp staff consistent with what was
16 reported to you by members of Merhamet following this visit to Manjaca?
17 A. I cannot see the document. And basically that would be it.
18 Quite a few of these things that you quoted tally with what I know about
19 their words from this meeting that we mentioned or this document that I
20 cited. I don't see the document now.
21 Q. If you could look at the Serbian version it's the -- you see the
22 last paragraph. It's the line before the last paragraph that in Serbian
23 starts 1, 2, 3 -- 4 lines from the end that says [Interpretation] "In
24 connection with that, our assessment is that the representatives of
25 Merhamet and the representatives of the prisoners of war were basically
1 happy with the conditions prevailing in the Manjaca prisoner of war
3 A. Precisely. That's what I've been saying, Judges, Your Honours,
4 and I have been trying to say all of this succinctly and correctly and
5 here it is in the document as well.
6 Q. [In English] Thank you.
7 MR. IVETIC: Now I'd like to call up 1D5307 and I'd like to turn
8 to page 3 in both languages. For the record, again is this the ICTY OTP
9 statement signed by Mr. Osman Selak on the 22nd of August, 2001.
10 A. I still cannot see that. Oh.
11 MR. IVETIC: If can I get the English, it should also be on page
13 Q. And I'd like to read for you, sir, the last two paragraphs, and I
14 direct your attention to the last two paragraphs that are above item
15 number 2 of Mr. Selak's statement, that says, quote, in relation to
17 "It was being run by the army under the command of
18 Bozidar Popovic, a retired colonel, who had been recalled from
19 retirement. Most of the people were brought to the camp on civilian
20 trucks and buses, and I do not know whether it was the military or some
21 other agency responsible for it. I cannot estimate the number of
22 killings that happened in the camps, but according to the people working
23 with the Merhamet, about 40 detainees had been killed even before July.
24 The people from the humanitarian agency knew this because they had
25 collected the bodies for burial."
1 Is this the statement of Osman Selak that you had in mind earlier
2 today when you were discussing at temporary -- at transcript page 12 your
3 objection to "about 40" persons being killed?
4 A. Judges, precisely. And I am so pleased that this has been found
5 so that I can answer your question in the affirmative.
6 Q. Now here Mr. Selak claims that the members of the humanitarian
7 agency Merhamet had collected the bodies for burial. Have you ever heard
8 of any situation where about 40 bodies were collected by Merhamet from
9 Manjaca camp for burial?
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi.
11 MR. TRALDI: The first question I thought was plausibly related
12 to something that I'd asked about on cross. This second question I don't
13 believe arises from cross-examination and I would object.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic.
15 MR. IVETIC: Mr. Traldi spent 20 minutes talking about Merhamet.
16 I'm not allowed one question on the same topic?
17 JUDGE ORIE: That's not a real answer to the objection, I think.
18 But well, if the witness --
19 You do not know of -- well, first of all, 40 persons, not
20 necessarily all at the same time. Did you ever hear of 40 people being
21 killed and their bodies being transported by Merhamet?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge, sir, had I heard about that,
23 I wouldn't have written what I wrote in that statement that I made under
24 oath. I never --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's clear. Is there any fact to your
1 knowledge which would contradict that bodies were collected by Merhamet?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have to say this again, Judge: I
3 am not familiar with any of these facts. I would have told you about it
4 in response to your other questions too, especially as regards the
5 collecting of bodies and their burial.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, so you don't know.
7 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
8 MR. IVETIC: Thank you. Now, Your Honours, actually if I can
9 have your assistance. I have read out the paragraph that I believe most
10 closely relates to the statement.
11 If Your Honours feel that we need to have this particular
12 statement of Mr. Selak in evidence for comparison to see the whole
13 context, I don't have an objection to it. I'm happy with just the part
14 that I've read into the record, so I leave it the Prosecution and to the
15 Chamber to find out since again this is our error for not noting this in
16 our statement. With peculiarity, I offer that opportunity.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: How many pages?
18 MR. IVETIC: That's a good question, Your Honour. I think it's
19 about ten pages. I'm not sure about the length but it's ...
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi --
21 Mr. Ivetic, I think the statement is five pages including cover
22 page if I'm... yes.
23 Mr. Traldi, it's even only three and a half page, I think.
24 MR. TRALDI: We have no objections to admission, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: No -- of course, we still -- we'll have to consider
1 that, because this is a statement taken for purposes of this Tribunal
2 which is usually not -- so let us think about it, let's mark it for
3 identification, and then --
4 MR. IVETIC: That's fine.
5 JUDGE ORIE: That would also mean that if the whole of the
6 document is -- that the remainder, for example, the next paragraph is --
7 that you want us to use it exclusively for comparison or do you?
8 MR. IVETIC: Exclusively for comparison, not for the truth of the
9 matter asserted.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 Mr. Traldi that's then accepted?
12 MR. TRALDI: I think we would -- we may have further submissions,
13 and I was going to say this at the end, we may have -- reserve the right
14 to tender additional material either from his diary or from this
16 JUDGE ORIE: Let's mark it for identification --
17 MR. IVETIC: Okay.
18 JUDGE ORIE: -- and see how we proceed.
19 Madam Registrar, the number to be assigned would be?
20 THE REGISTRAR: D00848, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Is marked for identification.
22 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
23 MR. IVETIC: My last topic. If we could have P6992, page 2 in
24 English, page 1 in the Serbian.
25 Q. Sir, while we wait for that this is the document that was shown
1 to you relating to the Croatian HVO and civilians, and I'd like to look
2 at item number 3. And as soon as we get the English. Under item number
3 we see here that concrete help was begin to the civilian population and
4 HVO in Vlasic in terms of food and medical aid, 14 wounded soldiers were
5 admitted for treatment. Does that accord with your recollection of the
6 treatment of the Croats at that time when they fled from the Lasva
8 A. This corresponds to my recollection but I did not know about them
9 being sent for medical treatment, but all this medical assistance was
10 provided, everything else that is referred to here.
11 Q. Now, the next paragraph says that the ICRC, International
12 Committee of the Red Cross, engaged in providing assistance by sending
13 its teams to Vlasic during the day. If required assistance was also
14 offered by the UN High Commissioner for Refugees with headquarters at
15 Banja Luka. Is it your recollection that international organisations
16 were working with the VRS and the Serb side to care for these Croats
17 fleeing the Muslim army from Lasva valley?
18 A. I remember they were involved and it was masses of thousands of
19 civilians that needed this. As for the army they, objectively speaking,
20 could not meet all of their needs.
21 MR. IVETIC: If we can turn to the next page in English, and if
22 we can turn to the next page in the B/C/S and I'd like the paragraph that
23 is just above item number 4. Still waiting for the B/C/S. I guess it
24 must be the last bit of the prior page in B/C/S. I apologise. I didn't
25 see it on the screen. But it must be the last few lines. It's
1 essentially one sentence in the English. If we can scroll all the way
2 down, it looks like -- part of the line. Okay. The part of the line is
3 cut off, but it's the last line here. And in the English --
4 Q. I'll read it to you, sir. It says:
5 "The Croatian civilian population at Vlasic is in a difficult
6 situation because we have no facilities to accommodate them and the ICRC
7 brought only ten packages of food. The ICRC does not have mv vehicles
8 for the evacuation of civilians to Novska."
9 Sir, what efforts did the VRS undertake on its own to care for
10 and transport these Croats when the international community could not do
12 A. The Army of Republika Srpska offered what they had in terms of
13 transportation capacities and what was available. Obviously that was not
14 enough. And that can be seen here.
15 Q. And what did the Army of Republika Srpska do for these Croatians
16 from Lasva valley; that is, where did they end up afterwards?
17 A. As I've already said, the army did in this way what they did for
18 the civilians, and those who were in uniform and able-bodied that was
19 different. Manjaca, about ten days later, transportation, to the area of
20 Vares. As for civilians, here and together with the soldiers from the
21 Lasva liver valley, they immediately provided medical assistance to them,
22 water, and food. They provided them with safety and security, rest, and
23 then they planned all of these activities to the best of their ability
24 and in the directions for which they expressed their wish. And as for
25 the soldiers, it was the way I've already said.
1 Q. To whom were they delivered at Vares?
2 A. Judge, sir, I don't know. I cannot claim this because I don't
3 know. But I know that Vares was the destination because further on it
4 was not possible.
5 Q. Okay. Colonel, again on behalf of General Mladic and the rest of
6 my team, I thank you for answering my questions.
7 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, that completes my re-direct and I
8 thank you for that extra time to do so.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.
10 Any further questions, Mr. Traldi?
11 MR. TRALDI: No, Mr. President.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE ORIE: Since we have no further questions either, this,
14 Mr. Amidzic, concludes your evidence. I'd like to thank you very much
15 for coming to The Hague - a long way for you - and for having answered
16 all the questions that were put to you by the parties and by the Bench,
17 and I wish you a safe return home again.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Your Honours, Judges, I thank you as well.
20 [The witness withdrew]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Traldi.
22 MR. TRALDI: Just briefly, Your Honour.
23 I believe at transcript page 58, line 4, I was recorded to say
24 1993 and meant to say 1992. And I'm concerned that if I don't correct it
25 now, I'll forget and it will get lost.
1 MR. IVETIC: And I think we all understood it as being 1992,
2 looking at the reference.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think there could be no doubt about that you
4 refer to 1992, and I think that there's no chance, I think, that the
5 witness would have understood otherwise apart from what was translated
6 and what you actually said. Therefore, we leave it to that.
7 Then we adjourn for the day, and we'll resume tomorrow,
8 Wednesday, the 10th of December, 9.30 in the morning, in this same
9 courtroom, I.
10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.17 p.m.,
11 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 10th day of
12 December, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.