1 Thursday, 18 December 2014
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
9 This is case IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 Judge Fluegge is, for urgent personal reasons, unable to continue
12 sitting in this case, this part-heard case, for a short period - that is,
13 for today - and Judge Moloto and myself have considered whether it would
14 be in the interests of justice to continue to hear the case today and we
15 decided that it was. Therefore, we'll sit 15 bis today.
16 Yesterday it was announced that there was a short preliminary
17 matter, although not to be dealt with in 30 seconds, to be dealt with
18 before Mr. Milutinovic would start his -- giving his testimony.
19 Who may I address? Ms. Hasan.
20 MS. HASAN: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning, everyone.
21 To address this matter, if we can go into private session.
22 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
23 [Private session]
11 Pages 30034-30036 redacted. Private session.
14 [Open session]
15 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
17 [The witness entered court]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Milutinovic.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
20 JUDGE ORIE: The Rules require that you make a solemn declaration
21 before you give evidence. The text is now handed out to you. May I
22 invite you to make that solemn declaration.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
24 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
25 WITNESS: MILOVAN MILUTINOVIC
1 [Witness answered through interpreter]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated, Mr. Milutinovic.
3 Mr. Milutinovic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Ivetic. You
4 find Mr. Ivetic to your left. Mr. Ivetic is counsel -- is a member of
5 the Defence team of Mr. Mladic.
6 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Examination by Mr. Ivetic:
8 Q. Sir, I wish you a good day.
9 A. Your Honours, Prosecutors, General Mladic, good morning to you
11 Q. Sir, can you please state your full name for the record.
12 A. Milovan Milutinovic, my father's name was Mico.
13 MR. IVETIC: If I can call up in e-court 1D1743.
14 Q. Sir, there is a signature on the first page of this statement.
15 Can you tell us whose signature appears on this first page?
16 A. This is my signature.
17 MR. IVETIC: And if we can now turn to the last page of the
19 Q. Whose signature is visible on this last page of the document,
21 A. Again, mine.
22 Q. Sir, subsequent to signing this statement, did you have occasion
23 to read the same to check if everything is correctly written in it?
24 A. I read it a few times. I believe it's accurate.
25 Q. If asked questions on the same topics as contained in your
1 statement today, would your answers be the same today as contained in
2 your statement?
3 A. I would probably provide a much longer statement. However, I was
4 directed by the lawyers to make my statement as short and as concise as
5 possible, but I wouldn't change anything in it.
6 Q. You have taken a declaration to tell the truth today. Does that
7 mean that the answers as recorded in your statement are truthful in
9 A. Precisely in keeping with the solemn declaration that I just
10 gave, everything I stated is truthful and correct.
11 Q. Thank you, sir.
12 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, we would tender 1D1743 into evidence.
13 There are no associated exhibits with this document.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: No objection.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D01743 receives Exhibit Number D862,
17 Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: D862 is admitted.
19 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
20 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I have a public summary to read of the
21 witness statement, the topic of the same, which has been advised to the
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
24 MR. IVETIC: From 1992 to 1994, Colonel Milovan Milutinovic was
25 chief of the press centre and chief of information service at the command
1 of the 5th JNA Corps which became the 1st Krajina Corps of the VRS. From
2 1994 to 1996, he was the head of information service and centre for
3 information and propaganda activities of the Main Staff of the VRS.
4 The witness hails from the village of Trnopolje, near Prijedor.
5 He notes that during World War II the Ustasha murdered 700.000 Serbs,
6 Jews, and Roma in Jasenovac, and that 450 Serbs of Kozarac were murdered
7 by their Muslim and Croat neighbours at that time, including the
8 witness's grandfather and ten relatives.
9 The witness recalled that Sarajevo and the other declared safe
10 zones were supposed to be demilitarised but that UNPROFOR commander
11 Briquemont confirmed the Muslims are using the zones protected by the UN
12 to mount attacks on the Serb positions from there.
13 The witness recalled that Muslim forces in Sarajevo breached the
14 cease-fire agreement on 21 May 1995 by attacking Serb positions from the
15 safe area of Sarajevo. On this occasion, the Muslim forces were
16 supported by artillery fire from the Egyptian Battalion of UNPROFOR. He
17 held an international press conference of the Main Staff where the
18 violation of the cease-fire and the abuse of authority by the Egyptian
19 Battalion were protested against by General Mladic.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, you're reading.
21 MR. IVETIC: The witness further recalled that in relation to
22 Markale 2, that Russian investigative teams involved in the UNPROFOR
23 joint commission established that some victims of Markale 2 were
24 individuals who had perished earlier and whose bodies had been exchanged
25 prior to Markale 2.
1 Per the witness, research shows the Muslim authorities sacrificed
2 their own compatriots in a bread-line massacre in 1992 in addition to
3 both Markale incidents and opened fire on their own people, journalists,
4 and UNPROFOR to blame the Serbs.
5 The witness recalled that at the BiH Assembly Alija Izetbegovic
7 "For a sovereign BiH, I am even willing to sacrifice peace."
8 Alija Izetbegovic withdrew his signature on the already concluded
9 Cutileiro Peace Agreement on the advice of American Ambassador Zimmerman.
10 Since the beginning of 1991, the Muslim leadership was preparing
11 in an organised manner for an armed conflict. In a magazine interview
12 with Izetbegovic from 1994, Izetbegovic said that the Patriotic League
13 was established on 10 June 1991 to prepare the people for defence and arm
14 them. The Patriotic League had nine regional and 103 municipal staff
15 with 98.000 armed combatants, according to General Sefer Halilovic.
16 The arrival of Mujahedin to Bosnia ensued after the Grand Mufti
17 and Alija Izetbegovic issued a fatwa on jihad.
18 As to Srebrenica, the witness recalls that General Mladic
19 received a delegation of Muslims that that expressed their wish to leave.
20 Mladic told them.
21 "... I give my word of a general that all those who gather around
22 the check-point in Potocari can choose whether to go to Yugoslavia, to
23 the Federation, or to stay in Republika Srpska ... I guarantee you full
24 freedoms and rights ..."
25 When the talks with the Muslims were finished, he told
1 General Krstic:
2 "... behave like knights. I gave my word of a general. No one
3 must be harmed ..."
4 The witness remembers being on Boksanica hill in July 1995 near
5 Zepa with General Mladic when General Rupert Smith, in the presence of
6 UNHCR, OSCE, and US officials --
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Slow down.
8 MR. IVETIC: -- commended General Mladic for the treatment of the
9 Srebrenica population by the VRS, and asked for fair treatment of the
10 Zepa population which General Mladic promised.
11 The witness is of the opinion that as an officer and a man
12 General Mladic could never issue an order that would be in contravention
13 of the Geneva Conventions. The witness is deeply sorry about all the
14 victims, and believes the real perpetrators should answer for these
16 And that ends the summary of the statement.
17 JUDGE ORIE: If you have any further questions for the witness,
18 please put them to him.
19 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Q. Sir, I'd like to look at paragraph 14 [sic] to be found on
21 page 25 in both versions of your statement.
22 Sir, this attack by the ABiH which violated the cease-fire and
23 when the Egyptian Battalion participated in the same, what response, if
24 any, was there by UNPROFOR after your press conference and
25 General Mladic's protests?
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you dealing with paragraph 14?
2 MR. IVETIC: 114, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: 114, I'm sorry.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 114? That's correct. After the
5 ABH army attacked from Sarajevo with the artillery support from the
6 UNPROFOR contingent, together with General Mladic, we organised a press
7 conference at Pale. I condemned the unilateral violation of the
8 cease-fire by the Muslim forces. My position at that press conference
9 was that the United Nations thus sided up with just one -- with just one
10 side during the conflict in Bosnia.
11 To answer your question: As far as I know, we --
12 JUDGE ORIE: That's the best words spoken until now, "to answer
13 your question," because you're supposed to do nothing else than to answer
14 the question. It was not whether you gave a press conference. That was
15 all the included in the question. What was the response, if any, by
16 UNPROFOR to that press conference and the protests.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] UNPROFOR didn't react at all. The
18 Serbian forces in Jahorinski Potok were bombarded by NATO in retaliation
19 against the Army of Republika Srpska. In other words, there was no
20 objective answer from that side. No response at all.
21 MR. IVETIC: If we can look at paragraph 44, found on page 12 in
22 the English, page 11 in the Serbian.
23 Q. In this paragraph you talk of Penny Marshall filming from within
24 a fenced-in warehouse, filming the people at Trnopolje who were outside
25 the fenced-in area. Did you ever talk to Ms. Marshall about why she was
1 filming in this manner?
2 A. First of all, I received an order concerning a group of foreign
3 journalists who had arrived from London. There were some 30 of them. I
4 was to take them to Prijedor, Trnopolje, and Omarska. I was against that
5 because --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, again, please start by answering the
7 question. Did Penny Marshall, did you ever talk to her about why she was
8 filming in this way? So we would like to hear about any conversation you
9 may have had with Penny Marshall on this subject.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I need to explain. I
11 took 30 journalists first to the staff for the talks there.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, first of all, to some extent that's already
13 in your statement. And apart from that, it's the question and it's
14 Mr. Ivetic who defines what we would like to hear from you. Did you have
15 any conversation with Penny Marshall on this subject?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For her own security she entered
17 the compound that had a wire fence around it and started recording. When
18 I mentioned that, when I warned her about it --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] She went in to protect herself from
21 extremists. And when I asked her why she did that, she said --
22 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat that last part.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Could you repeat the last part of your answer.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] She told me that because of her own
25 personal security, safety, she entered the construction material depot
1 and started recording because she was afraid of the reaction of the
2 people around her. But when I warned her that she had abused our
3 hospitality, she said that that footage that was recorded would not be
5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
6 MR. IVETIC: Now I'd like to turn to page 26 in the English and
7 it's at the bottom of page 25, on the top of page 26 in the Serbian.
8 Q. And paragraph 118 of your statement. Sir, here I want to ask
9 you: How did you come to learn of these conclusions by the Russian
10 members of the UNPROFOR joint commission that these -- that the Markale
11 victims consisted of bodies killed prior and exchanged prior?
12 A. The Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska received
13 information from the investigative commission, Russian component, who was
14 investigating what happened in Markale II. And in that report it said
15 that some previously killed persons were found among the bodies who had
16 been probably exchanged a few days before between the Muslim and Serbian
17 side. So the information service made an announcement of the Main Staff
18 and in the information we mentioned the data we received from the Russian
19 members of the commission.
20 Q. Sir, what reaction, if any, did you note from General Smith or
21 UNPROFOR following this information?
22 A. There was no reaction. Quite the opposite. A couple of days
23 later Republika Srpska -- actually, the 15-day bombing started of the
24 whole territory of Republika Srpska by the NATO airforce.
25 Q. Okay.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask --
2 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: -- a few follow-up questions in relation to this.
4 Was it verified, were those persons identified who had been
5 exchanged? Was the identity known of those persons?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I personally don't
7 know that. We just received the information from the Russian delegation
8 which was part of the investigation team, so I cannot really give you an
9 affirmative answer to that because there was no time to check this,
10 either. My information service was not obliged to check or verify this.
11 The documents we received from them were part of the Main Staff archives,
12 and they went together with UNPROFOR.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Was -- were the identities of those persons
14 verified later?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you said "probably they were exchanged."
17 So do I understand that that's just a probability and not for a fact?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The document that we received from
19 the Russian part of the commission said that. I don't know anything
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That document you are talking about we -- this
22 witness often refers to documents of which I'm not always certain whether
23 we have them or not. Does it ring any bell as to what exhibit we should
24 look at or is any of the parties inclined or intending to provide such
1 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I can say that I was planning on
2 searching through it. I, from off the top of my head, had not recalled a
3 single document of this nature, which is why I have asked the witness to
4 give further details because I was -- when I read the statement I did not
5 recall a document of that nature. But I will, of course, endeavour to
6 find it if it exists because I think it would be very helpful for us.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: As you know, we have no documents from this
9 report, and I'm not aware of any Russian -- such Russian documents.
10 We'll, of course --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- look for that.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
14 Witness, this Chamber, if you could assist us in finding the
15 document, then of course the Chamber would -- would be happy to receive
16 any document which is not known to it until now. So if you would have it
17 or know where it is, don't hesitate to tell us.
18 Please proceed.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These are documents that were in
20 the Main Staff archives. The bulk of the archives were taken by UNPROFOR
21 in the presence of President Biljana Plavsic from the base in
22 Han Pijesak.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that assistance.
24 MR. IVETIC:
25 Q. Sir --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic.
2 Please proceed.
3 MR. IVETIC: Yeah.
4 Q. Sir, if you could clarify for us, was it UNPROFOR or IFOR that
5 took those documents?
6 A. IFOR. In 1996. It was IFOR.
7 Q. Thank you. Now I want to look at page 8 in the English, page 7
8 in the Serbian, and paragraph 24 of your statement. Here you talk of the
9 presence of the Croatian army in Bosnia. Are you aware if General Mladic
10 or the Main Staff ever advised UNPROFOR of the presence of these Croatian
11 troops in Bosnia?
12 A. I myself believe that the Main Staff of Republika Srpska sent
13 protests more than ten times to the UNPROFOR command and to the
14 United Nations regarding the presence of some 10- to 15.000 regular
15 Croatian army forces, which constituted an aggression on the Republic of
16 Bosnia and Herzegovina. In that regard, we had the United Nations
17 Secretary General send a strong protest requesting Croatia to withdraw
18 their forces from Bosnia and Herzegovina. In response to that, Croatia
19 said that there was an agreement between Bosnia and Herzegovina and
20 Croatia from June 1991, and that is what they used to justify the
21 presence of their forces in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
22 Somewhat later in 1995 General Mladic and I held a press
23 conference in Banja Luka where we mentioned all the Croatian army
24 brigades that took part in the aggression.
25 Q. Okay. If we can move to paragraph 50 of your statement, found on
1 page 12 in the Serbian, page 13 in the English.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Are those protests, written protests, are
3 they - and I'm looking at the parties - are they somewhere in evidence or
4 are they --
5 MR. IVETIC: I --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Do you know -- do you know where they are, these
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All these documents are contained
10 in the Main Staff archives, documents sent to UNPROFOR and the
11 United Nations. I am sure that that exists, but they just need to be
12 admitted into the case file.
13 MR. IVETIC: I can check on that. I do recall at least one of --
14 one such document that I used with General Smith which I believe is the
15 letter from General Janvier from General Mladic, but I can -- I can get
16 back to you on that.
17 JUDGE ORIE: It could be. But, Witness, as you may understand,
18 this Chamber, whenever you refer to any documents or any information we'd
19 like to know exactly what documents do exist and where that information
20 is to be found and where it comes from.
21 Please proceed.
22 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Q. I believe we were going to paragraph 50, found on page 12. If
24 we're there.
25 Sir, in this paragraph you say the international public was
1 silent about the Mujahedin presence until the arrived of the Americans as
2 part of IFOR. What happened and what changed with the arrival of the
3 Americans in regard to the Mujahedin in Bosnia-Herzegovina?
4 A. The US administration and the entire European public was
5 permanently aware of the arrival of the Mujahedin to Bosnia-Herzegovina,
6 which is confirmed by a study of the offensives on the Balkans where he
7 says that there were --
8 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to slow down.
9 Q. Sir, could you --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Witness --
11 MR. IVETIC: Yeah.
12 JUDGE ORIE: -- could you again slow down. The interpreters are
13 unable to follow your speed of speech.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] US journalists began to write about
15 the Mujahedin more objectively and in more detail only after the end of
16 the war when the decision was made for the IFOR forces to arrive to
17 implement peace in Bosnia-Herzegovina whereby the key role was played by
18 US troops. In that regard, Joseph Bosanski, director of the Centre for
19 Strategic Research wrote about the Balkans and the presence of 12- to
20 18.000 Mujahedin in Bosnia-Herzegovina and how they posed a latent danger
21 for all international forces that would be found in order to implement
22 the peace in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
23 It is well known that Islamic forces arrived in
24 Bosnia-Herzegovina at the request of Alija Izetbegovic and Reis Ceric,
25 who in 1992 proclaimed jihad, meaning a call to all Muslims of the world
1 to join the fight against the infidel Serbs and Croats.
2 MR. IVETIC: Okay.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, in your statement you say 8- to 12.000. I
4 just heard you say 12- to 18.000. Which of the two is the correct
5 reflection of what was written by Mr. Bosanski?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps the interpretation was
7 incorrect: 8- to 12.000.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
9 MR. IVETIC:
10 Q. Thank you, sir. My last question deals with paragraph 30 of your
11 statement found on page 9 in both versions.
12 Sir, in this paragraph you identify journalists working at the
13 press centre that were Croat or Muslim in ethnicity and that remained
14 throughout the war. Were these journalists members of any army, and if
15 so, which army were they members of?
16 A. Thank you for this question. The press centre of the corps and
17 the Main Staff also had journalists who were Croats and Muslims. I just
18 briefly mentioned that in the statement. I mentioned two of them. They
19 were members of the Army of Republika Srpska. I have to say that other
20 than that, the 1st Krajina Corps also had a Muslim battalion called
21 Mesa Selimovic from Derventa that comprised an all Muslim personnel
22 including the commander of the brigade.
23 Q. Sir, on behalf of the General Mladic and the rest of my team I
24 thank you for answering my questions this morning.
25 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, that completes my direct examination.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.
2 Mr. Milutinovic, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. McCloskey.
3 You'll find Mr. McCloskey to your right. Mr. McCloskey is counsel for
4 the Prosecution.
5 Cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey:
6 Q. Good morning, Colonel.
7 A. Good morning.
8 Q. It appeared to me that you understand some English; is that
10 A. No.
11 Q. None at all?
12 A. No, none at all.
13 Q. And in your position at the Main Staff's centre for information
14 and propaganda, did you consider yourself a professional propagandist?
15 A. I must say -- may I answer? Is this a question?
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it's a question. You may answer the question.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In our earlier composition of the
18 Yugoslav People's Army, by establishment there was a section that was
19 dealing with propaganda and information. But the propaganda was not
20 conceived in the way certain circles are implementing that; for example,
21 the Armed Forces of the United States and the French. In their case
22 these are psych-ops. Propaganda in the classical sense is not propaganda
23 but just dealing with facts with the objective of persuading appropriate
24 circles about the need to implement specific solutions or to accept
25 existing positions. So in that sense the propaganda was directed
1 primarily towards one's own citizens and population in order to inform
2 them and to prepare them in order to carry out the suitable mobilisation
3 in order to be able to wage a defensive war.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY:
5 Q. Well, thank you for that definition of propaganda. That wasn't
6 my question.
7 JUDGE ORIE: If you ask whether the witness considers himself to
8 be a propagandist, then of course there should be clarity about what
9 propaganda and what a propagandist is. So in that respect, I must --
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, thank you, Mr. President.
11 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ...
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: That was my next question as I agree with you.
13 But before I get there, I would like to know if he does --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- so that his answer will have more meaning.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY:
18 Q. So do you consider yourself -- did you at that time consider
19 yourself a propagandist?
20 A. I completed senior JNA political school for political information
21 and morale, and I am responsible in my opinion for that area. I also
22 carried out some propaganda tasks, but I believe that I was not a
23 propagandist per se in that sense of the word.
24 Q. Did you disseminate VRS propaganda to your own people?
25 A. This was in my job description and part of the remit of the press
1 centre for information and propaganda services of the Army of Republika
3 Q. So you did disseminate VRS propaganda?
4 A. Absolutely, meaning that it involved truthful information,
5 presentation of appropriate positions, and informing the population about
6 the need to mobilise assets and means in order to be able to carry out a
8 Q. It's your position that the VRS propaganda was truthful?
9 A. Yes, for the most part it was truthful.
10 Q. Was the Muslim propaganda truthful?
11 A. For the most part, yes.
12 Q. And the Croat propaganda --
13 A. That is how we understood propaganda. That of the Croats as
14 well, yes.
15 Q. And did the international forces use propaganda in the media?
16 A. Absolutely.
17 Q. And you felt that was truthful as well?
18 A. For the most part, yes. I just have to differentiate here. In
19 our language I have to make a difference between "propaganda" and
20 "manipulation," as well as psychological activities that at a certain
21 point were waged against the Serbian people by certain Western circles.
22 Q. Who wrote your statement, Defence 862?
23 A. The statement that we were reading out now, is that the one you
25 Q. Yes.
1 A. The attorneys worked on it together with me.
2 Q. So the attorneys actually typed it up?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And --
5 A. I mean those -- Lukic and his colleague, the two people who are
6 mentioned in the statement.
7 Q. And who provided the information that went into what they were
9 A. I did. Who else could it have been? They were interviewing me.
10 And then when they drafted the final document, they gave it to me to see
11 whether I agreed with it and I did.
12 Q. And did you check the sources you make? You make many media and
13 other sources. Did you check those sources to make sure they're
15 A. I did check all the sources. For the most part they are correct.
16 I published four studies about the war in Bosnia, and I think here you
17 have all four of my published books and they also refer to appropriate
19 Q. For the most part they're correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. So that suggests part of it's not correct?
22 A. There are some sources in the statement about which in the
23 meantime I did not provide verification material. I don't have for them
24 sources where this information comes from, but I do have that information
25 and there are documents to substantiate those items.
1 Q. So you've just said you've got information in the report that you
2 have provided no verification material. All right. I'll go on.
3 Let's go to your report, D862, page 24 in the English. It also
4 should be page 24 in the B/C/S. Looking at the paragraphs 109. You're
5 talking about situations here where you're saying the Muslims killed or
6 terrorised their own people. And on paragraph 110, you say:
7 "There are numerous other testimonies by Western reporters about
8 the Muslim forces abusing their fellow citizens in order to accuse the
9 Serbs and ensure the engagement of NATO in support of the Muslim forces.
10 Thus, the British journalist Martin Bell wrote in the 'Sunday': 'I felt
11 like a poor foot soldier in the army whose entire Muslim command lost
12 their mind and terrorised their own people - and I told them that,' wrote
13 Martin Bell on 3 July 1994 in the 'Independent Sunday' about the media
14 manipulation after his stay in the BiH."
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Now I want to go to 65 ter 31811.
16 Q. We did go to the 3rd July 1994 "Sunday Independent" that you cite
17 in your statement, and we did find a quote from Martin Bell.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's go to page 4 in the English.
19 Q. And we translated part of it.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Page 1 of the B/C/S.
21 Q. So that you can read it. But I will read some of this out loud.
22 We see that it's under the heading in this lengthy article called:
23 "Real-time reporting can have direct short-term effect on events. Here
24 are examples." Then we'll go down to the part we translated for you, and
25 it gives an example of the controversial British air-lift after the BBC
1 report about Irma Hadzimuratovic on a light weekend news day last August
2 showed the power and resentment television crews can make.
3 "Irma's story struck an emotional cord with viewers in a way less
4 personalised coverage could not have done. The media clamour for action
5 saved Irma and resulted in offers of 1800 hospital beds worldwide, which
6 the aid agencies could not otherwise have secured."
7 JUDGE ORIE: I have not found it yet in the English version,
8 Mr. McCloskey.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: It should be page 4 in the English version.
10 MR. IVETIC: Just above the middle of the page, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm sorry.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm sorry. Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.
15 Q. And then starting with the paragraph that says:
16 "But the process created a bitter, destabilising inter-agency
17 confrontation over the priorities in evacuation procedures for the
18 injured. Some found it hard to comprehend the actions of the news
19 organisations and the British government," quote, from Martin Bell, "'I
20 felt like a humble foot soldier in an army whose high command had taken
21 leave of its collective senses - and I told them so,' said Martin Bell."
22 Now, to remind us what you said in support of your theory that
23 the Muslims were killing themselves, quote from your report:
24 "I felt like a poor foot soldier in the army whose entire Muslim
25 command lost their mind and terrorised their own people - and I told them
2 Now, your quote adds "Muslim command" and "terrorised their own
3 people." And we can see from Mr. Bell's quote he is talking about an
4 issue he has with his own government and how they reacted to this
6 How on earth, sir, did you do this to Martin Bell's quote?
7 A. I must say that I don't speak English, I don't read English. I
8 used a Tanjug report. Perhaps I should have added who my source was
9 because I used the Tanjug report, and I am talking about the
10 Belgrade-based news agency.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Could I then ask you the following: Is it true that
12 whatever reference, direct reference to English texts or English
13 publications, that you have not verified them?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not verify them because --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. You've answered --
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- I thought the Tanjug was a
17 trustworthy agency.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think it's break time, Mr. President.
21 JUDGE ORIE: It is.
22 We'll take a break, Witness, and we'd like to see you back in
23 20 minutes. You may follow the usher.
24 [The witness stands down]
25 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at 5 minutes to 11.00.
1 --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.
2 --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.
3 JUDGE ORIE: We'll wait for the witness to be escorted into the
5 [The witness takes the stand]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, you may proceed.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
8 Q. Colonel, on paragraph 85 of your statement you say that you give
9 an interview with the Netherlands Institute on War Documentation, known
10 as NIOD, who we've heard a little bit about in this courtroom, and I
11 would like to take you to their report of your interview.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: And that is at 65 ter 31807. It should be
13 page 13 in the English and page 13 in the B/C/S.
14 Q. And on paragraph -- what they note as their paragraph 53 of their
15 notes or their statements on your interview, they say that you -- you
16 provided information, and I quote, that:
17 "During a military operation, Milutinovic and his assistants were
18 not allowed in the operations area."
19 Is that correct, that during military operations you and your
20 assistants were not allowed in the operations area?
21 A. This is wrong, wrongly interpreted. This conversation was of a
22 private nature, and I sent a protest letter asking why a document of that
23 kind was ever submitted to the Tribunal, since it was a free-flowing
24 conversation between two historians who wanted to take a closer look at
25 the situation. During the military operation not just me but
1 journalists, teams of journalists were not allowed to enter the zone of
2 Srebrenica. Why am I saying this? Because I, my journalist, and my
3 photographer, came to Srebrenica to talk to the Dutch Battalion, and on
4 the following day I was to attend --
5 Q. Sir -- sir --
6 A. -- the talks between General Mladic and --
7 Q. I'm sorry, we may get into that narrative but I think you've
8 answered my question in some way. Let me ask you another part of it. It
9 also goes on to say: "They were never informed in advance of planned
10 operation," meaning you and your team were never performed -- or, excuse
11 me, you were never informed in advance of planned operations. Is that
12 true? Was that the way it was, that the -- the press information and
13 propaganda people weren't given prior notice of operations?
14 A. This proves that in the military there was a mismatch between the
15 real needs and -- what was needed and what existed in the field.
16 Although we were an integral part of the Army of Republika Srpska,
17 journalists were considered --
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. McCloskey, you can insist on an answer to your
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you. Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Q. Yeah, it was a simple question: Were you and your people not --
22 were never informed in advance of planned operations?
23 A. Not always but occasionally, yes. For -- we were not informed
24 about certain operations because they were carried out at the tactical
25 and operational level. But we were informed about larger-scale
2 I read NIOD's report. There are a lot of misinterpretations.
3 I've not seen this document before, mind you.
4 Q. You haven't seen your report of your interview from NIOD, is what
5 you mean? What I've just read out to you.
6 A. During the proofing, yes. However, prior to that, five years ago
7 when it was drafted I didn't see it.
8 Q. So the Defence went over your NIOD interview with you in
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. And you made comments on that to them?
12 A. Yes, that there are a lot of inadequate translations. For
13 example, I said that Zoran Petrovic-Pirocanac received 700 German marks,
14 and here it says 700.000 German marks. You see, this is an example.
15 During the operation, journalists were denied access, and it says here --
16 Q. All right, let's --
17 A. -- that me and my assistants were denied access. So the
18 translations are all inadequate.
19 Q. Let's go to your statement.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: 862, D862, page 19 in the English, page 18 in the
22 Q. I am surprised to see that with your feelings about NIOD you have
23 actually cited NIOD as part of your report. But given that, let me read
24 something that you say here and ask you some questions.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Before we do so, but stop me, Mr. McCloskey, if it's
1 a matter that you would touch upon anyhow.
2 In what language was that interview conducted?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Serbian.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Does that mean that the -- your --
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We had an English interpreter and
6 the doctor was Dutch.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's what I just wanted to know.
8 Please proceed.
9 MR. IVETIC: And, Your Honours, I can also perhaps clarify. The
10 original of this document shown by Mr. McCloskey was in Dutch, and then
11 the translations into B/C/S and English.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If there is any concerns about Dutch-English,
13 then I -- even I might cast an eye on it.
14 Please proceed.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: My question would be, do we have the Dutch
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: There are many, many thousands of pages. It is
18 on the Internet. I don't suggest it would be a great idea to get into
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well --
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: However, it's --
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- just this part?
23 JUDGE ORIE: This interview.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: This interview.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: No. This interview with the witness --
1 [Prosecution counsel confer]
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: If you're speaking of the notes of the interview
3 with the witness, that I do not believe is part of the report. That
4 was --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but we always ask the witness to answer the
6 question. The question is there is a Dutch version of this interview.
7 Is that available, yes or no? The interview is we see English, we see
8 B/C/S. Is this taken from a Dutch original and is that Dutch original
9 available, yes or no?
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: We have a Dutch report in -- I don't know if it's
11 an original or not. I don't know if they consider it --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's --
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- Dutch or not.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, after the break I would like to hear
15 from the Prosecution whether what is shown to us now, that seems to be
16 the report on an interview, whether that's available in the Dutch
17 language and whether the original is --
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: -- Dutch.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, it is.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: And it can be seen at 65 ter 31807.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. I'm telling you this because -- yes, I see it
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, but this --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's all fine --
2 MR. IVETIC: There is a problem with the B/C/S channel, I'm told.
3 The last several lines have not been coming through to Mr. Stojanovic or
4 to Mr. Mladic.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: And I know it's confusing but now we have the
6 report of the interview on, before that we had the witness's statement on
7 to the ICTY.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, well, what we have now is the -- apparently is
9 the report on the conversation with Mr. Milutinovic on 20 and 22nd of
10 March, 2000, and someone from the NIOD being present.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. And that's what I read to him in the
12 English, the part about planned or operations.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps for others it's better not to stay
14 with the Dutch, though Judge Moloto might understand some of it. But we
15 are back in English now, and I -- if it is -- please proceed,
16 Mr. McCloskey.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: I was just going to say, if we look at that
18 paragraph we can see whether it's 700 or 7.000, even if we don't know
19 Dutch. At least that we can see.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: And -- yes, it's a good idea.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Now, let's -- we have paragraph 85 now on our screen
22 which is about the number of written pages, which is not the same as the
23 amount that was supposed to be paid to Mr. Petrovic.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: I think it was paragraph 53.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: It was paragraph 53, if we could go back to the
1 Dutch original. And I think that we can all see that it says 700.000.
2 So if -- when we can go back to the witness's ICTY statement,
3 D862, page 19 in the English, page 18 in the B/C/S. And I'm looking at
4 paragraph 85, if we could blow that up.
5 Q. Where you say in your report, I won't read it all, but we do say
6 that you talk about the Netherlands Institute for War Documentation which
7 established after five years of research and 7.000 written pages that
8 there were no plans whatsoever to commit crimes against the Muslim
9 population in Srebrenica by either the civilian --
10 JUDGE ORIE: You're not quoting correctly, Mr. McCloskey. It
11 says that "no evidence was found about" which is not the same as what you
12 read. It says not that there were no plans whatsoever, it says that
13 there was no evidence about plans.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mine --
15 JUDGE ORIE: That's not the same.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: What I'm reading, Mr. President, says:
17 "After five years of research and 7.000 written pages, that there
18 were no plans whatsoever to commit crimes against the Muslim population
19 in Srebrenica by either the civilian or the military authorities of
20 Republika Srpska and the FRY."
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then it continues that:
22 "The NIOD report was published in August 2002 and it explicitly
23 states that no evidence was found about planning and the commission of
25 So there may be even some inconsistency within this one
1 paragraph, whether it is a positive finding of there being no planning or
2 the absence of any evidence that there was planning.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Let's move on.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- and you interrupted me as I was reading it.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do agree that I was reading a few lines
7 further down with more or less the same language. And I should not have
8 interrupted you at that point in time.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you very much, Mr. President.
12 I'll keep going where you left off.
13 "Their report confirms that there were crimes around Srebrenica,
14 but according to their research, those were individual crimes as a result
15 of extremism of certain armed groups."
16 Now I would like to go to part of this voluminous NIOD report,
17 65 ter 31809. It should be page 7 in the English, page 1 in the B/C/S.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, just for my -- for myself, is
19 there -- in the Dutch version is that also uploaded of the report? It's
20 not uploaded.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: No.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, fine. Please proceed.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: I won't read the first two paragraphs, but we can
24 see that they are -- it's talking about Srebrenica enclave and -- a bit.
25 Q. The second paragraph begins with:
1 "There is absolutely no doubt that the mass murder was committed
2 by Bosnian Serb military units."
3 And then the -- I'll read most of the third paragraph. And I'll
4 quote NIOD saying:
5 "There can be little doubt that the mass executions were
6 carefully planned and organised. The hypothesis that they were more or
7 less spontaneous as things 'got out of hand' is untenable. This said,
8 certain of the smaller-scale killings, such as those at Kravica,
9 Konjevic Polje, Bratunac, and Baljkovica, may have fallen into this
10 category. It has not yet been determined who gave the order for these
11 mass executions and whether the decision to proceed in this manner was a
12 political or a military one. The larger-scale executions certainly
13 demanded a degree of prior planning and organisation. In a generally
14 well-structured and disciplined army such as the VRS, this would have
15 required the foreknowledge and co-operation of the commanders. Transport
16 had to be arranged for both prisoners and firing squads, bulldozers had
17 to be deployed to - literally - cover up the consequences. It may still
18 be possible to contend that the first executions were carried out by
19 special units on the orders of the General Staff and by units of the
20 Ministry of Home Affairs. However, it is clear that regular VRS units
21 became embroiled in the crimes, supplying both personnel and equipment.
22 These units would also have been involved in seeking locations for
23 temporary detention of the men and suitable locations for executions,
24 these locations being found at ever greater distances from Srebrenica.
25 "It seems improbable that the mass murder was planned well in
1 advance, although some Bosnians believe otherwise."
2 So, sir, if we go back to your statement to the ICTY, and I quote
3 page -- at your paragraph 85:
4 "The NIOD report was published on 10 August 2002 and it
5 explicitly states that no evidence was found about planning and the
6 commission of genocide against the population in Srebrenica," as well as
7 the rest of your paragraph which suggests.
8 So how can you make this conclusion, sir? You obviously didn't
9 read the NIOD report, did you?
10 A. When you were reading you yourself said that everything started
11 from probabilities, that they didn't establish anything. NIOD says that
12 there is no proof that executions had been planned. Second of all, a
13 summary of this was published by IFP, and I just conveyed that. In my
14 statement I never quoted that. I just gave an account of what was
15 reported by the IFP agency.
16 Q. So like you blame the last agency, you're saying it's the IP
17 agency that made this conclusion about no planning and that's how this
18 got into your report?
19 A. I'm talking about that one agency. The first report was based on
20 Tanjug, and this information was based on the AFP report as the first
21 agency that ever published that information.
22 Q. So as part of your report, you're really not getting into the
23 primary source materials to determine reality from fiction, are you?
24 A. What do you mean "fabrication"? I did not fabricate anything. I
25 just relied on a summary of the AFP News. Second of all, I used NIOD's
1 information that the Tribunal had received my information which was
2 shared in a free-flowing conversation that was held in Banja Luka
3 14 years ago. It was a long time ago, you know.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you're moving away from what the question
5 is about. What Mr. McCloskey puts to you is that in your statement you
6 do not say: "I read an excerpt or a summary of a report of NIOD prepared
7 by agency so-and-so and they report that this is the case," but you -- in
8 your statement you say the report says this, whereas I understand you
9 have not read the report.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. 7.000 pages. I don't read
12 JUDGE ORIE: No.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not have an opportunity to
14 see it.
15 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not blaming you for not having read it. What
16 I'm saying to you is that your statement is inaccurate in this respect
17 because it suggests that you read it and that you reflect what is in the
18 report, whereas what you actually did is to read a summary.
19 Now could you --
20 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's inaccurate. I hope that we would agree
22 on that. Then second, if you say it is the summary which was produced,
23 do you still have a copy of the source you did consult and you did rely
24 on when giving this statement?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not have time to bring this.
1 If I'd known that it would be necessary. I was hoping that all the
2 reports are here and that there was no need for me to --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Well, all the original material is here. But the
4 press clippings or the press messages you rely upon may not be here. So
5 if at any stage you would still have it or still remember it or have it
6 somewhere on your computer or whatever, then perhaps you could give it to
7 the Tribunal so that we know -- although, we are more interested in
8 primary sources than in what the press writes about a report.
9 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY:
12 Q. Colonel, why are you citing NIOD for authority when you're
13 actually referring to some AP Press article? What kind of work product
14 is that?
15 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, if we can have some clarification.
16 Mr. McCloskey has gone from IFP, AFP, now to AP. As I understand it,
17 those could be three different agencies. I'm no longer certain of
18 what --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Let's --
20 MR. IVETIC: -- what's actually said.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I think what press agency it exactly is not the core
22 of the problem. Mr. McCloskey asked you why you are citing NIOD for
23 authority where you're actually referring to some press article, some
24 press summary, and what kind of a work product that is.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I must say that I received NIOD - I
1 didn't have to but I did - and our conversation lasted for ten years.
2 And this summary after ten years of doing research on all the sides,
3 Muslim, Croat, and Serb, was instrumental in using that and in stating
4 what I did.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think we can --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it's not really --
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- continue now.
8 JUDGE ORIE: -- an answer to the question.
9 But please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
11 Q. Going back to your statement D862, paragraph 17, you say that,
12 and you're talking about events in 1992 and later, completely ignored
13 were the extraordinary efforts on the part of the Portuguese Minister of
14 Foreign Affairs, Jose Cutileiro, who brokered an agreement among all
15 three sides, regarding the basis for organising the state into cantons
16 which was signed by Alija Izetbegovic, Radovan Karadzic, and Mate Boban.
17 Sir, I want to take to the 11th Session of the RS Assembly.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Which is at P4580.
19 Q. This occurred on 18 March 1992. And it's President Karadzic
20 speaking of the Cutileiro document. And I quote:
21 "The document has been accepted as a basis as a" --
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Excuse me, e-court page 6, English page 7. If we
23 want to get it up. English e-court, 6; B/C/S, 7.
24 Q. And I'll quote.
25 "The document has been accepted as a basis as a foundation for
1 further negotiations. The document has not been signed. We would never
2 sign anything that we did not agree upon."
3 He goes on.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: E-court page 43 in English, page 62 in the B/C/S,
5 but it's short, and I will read it accurately.
6 Q. Karadzic:
7 "I will have to provide at least a digested response to what has
8 been said so far. What we have here is a process and the mistake that
9 Dobrivoje Vidic is making has to do with the fact that an unfinished
10 process should not be assessed as if it were a finished one. We have
11 entered into this process with our strategic goals and we are
12 accomplishing them stage by stage.
13 "We would never have signed this paper as a document. Never,
14 never, never!"
15 You would agree with me that Radovan Karadzic knows better than
16 you, as expressed in the assembly sessions, whether or not the RS signed
17 the Cutileiro document?
18 A. Based on the information that I had, the document was initialed
19 in Lisbon about the establishment of Bosnia and Herzegovina on a cantonal
20 basis. Some agreements were reached and then the final signing
21 agreements were supposed to be reached. If you're talking about the
22 assembly session in March, at that time I was not in Republika Srpska at
23 all so I was using archival materials in order to formulate the position.
24 A couple of months ago Cutileiro visited Belgrade and he publicly
25 stated that the document was initialed and that a high level of agreement
1 was reached, and he was sorry that the American administration
2 interfered. And this is on Radio Television Serbia. You can see
3 Cutileiro's statement, who regretted that certain circles did not accept
4 the basic points of the Lisbon plan because had that happened, there
5 would have been no war in Bosnia-Herzegovina, most probably.
6 Q. I take it when you were out of the RS you were not in Lisbon at
7 the Lisbon Conference?
8 A. There are documents, archives. Any researcher who wanted to
9 study something could have access to different documents in order to get
10 proper data from which he would be able to draw the appropriate
12 Q. Yes, Colonel, you've told us about the data you've been relying
13 on. My question was whether you were at the Lisbon Conference.
14 A. Well, perhaps this is a little inadequate, this question. I
15 wasn't at the Lisbon Conference and I was not at this assembly session in
16 Pale, either.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, whether the question is inadequate or not
18 is not for a witness to comment upon. You've given --
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. I apologise.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Now, let's go to something else.
22 Q. The president said at the 49th Session of the RS Assembly --
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: This is 65 ter 02410. It should be on e-court
24 page 116 in English, page 79 in the B/C/S.
25 Q. And again, what President Karadzic says, and I quote:
1 "The first position in all Cutileiro's principles, if you
2 remember, was that Bosnia was a state consisting of this and that but it
3 always said that Bosnia was a state, and we never accepted that and we
4 demanded the maximum that we could accept. Bosnia is a confederation of
6 You know the reality, don't you, that the RS government was never
7 going to agree to a state shared with the Muslims and Croats?
8 A. You're asking for my position on this?
9 Q. Yes.
10 A. Republika Srpska would have accepted and does accept -- or
11 Bosnia-Herzegovina and did so until the point in time when the Sarajevo
12 leadership demanded that Republika Srpska be abolished because that was
13 allegedly a genocidal creation. If the attitude towards Republika Srpska
14 had changed, and judging by the most recently elected government, the
15 position is that Republika Srpska is a legitimate entity and
16 Bosnia-Herzegovina is a state.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's go to P3106.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Witness -- and, Mr. McCloskey, what is the position
19 or is not, the primary concern at this moment seems to be the reliability
20 of the statement of the witness.
21 Would you agree with me that where you state that the Cutileiro
22 Plan was signed by Izetbegovic, Karadzic, and Mate Boban, that a more
23 adequate description of the situation would have been that it was
24 initialed and that in the follow-up conversations in parliamentary
25 sessions that there was quite some dispute about how acceptable or not
1 acceptable that was and -- as expressed by Mr. Karadzic? Because that's
2 apparently what Mr. McCloskey puts to you, that this does not adequately
3 reflect the situation. Would you, on the basis of what he has just shown
4 you, would you agree or would you disagree with that?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have to say that it was only
6 initialed. That's what I said. The agreement was not signed as such.
7 JUDGE ORIE: That's not what your statement says. Your statement
8 says that it was signed.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, that's what I meant by that.
10 That it was initialed.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Your statement also does not refer to any
12 discussions in parliament in which the adherence to or the denial to
13 accept the conditions of the Cutileiro Plan were discussed. And
14 Mr. McCloskey puts it to you that that then, therefore, inadequately
15 reflects the situation as it existed at the time. Do you agree that
16 parts are missing, or do you say no, it still is an adequate reflection
17 of the situation at the time?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Mr. President, you are
19 completely correct. I was just using parts of it. And in the beginning
20 I did say that because of the voluminous material the attorneys asked me
21 to cut my statement short, and that's the reason why I did not go into
22 all the elements in more detail.
23 JUDGE ORIE: No, it's not about -- only about details, it is also
24 about whether the selection you made still reflects the main gist of the
25 material that does exist. But let's leave it to that.
1 Mr. McCloskey, you may proceed.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you. I would offer that section of the
3 49th Assembly, 65 ter 02410, e-court page 116 in the English, 79 in the
4 B/C/S, into evidence.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Has the whole of the document been uploaded and can
6 we deal with a selection rather than to --
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: I was hoping that was just one page, but I --
8 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know. I'm just seeking verification of it
9 being an excerpt or it being the whole of the ...
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: We'll make sure we get an excerpt in --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Let's --
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- that just has that part, Mr. President.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Let's already reserve a number for it.
14 THE REGISTRAR: 02410 receives P7023, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: And did uploaded as an excerpt will be admitted.
16 There are no objections.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: And Ms. Stewart informs me that should be 2410A
18 as an excerpt.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And these are the relevant pages.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yeah.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Has it been uploaded already or it's still to
22 be uploaded? Then the number is reserved for what will be uploaded as
24 Please proceed.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right.
1 Q. Now I'd like to go back to your ICTY statement, D862.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Page 21 in the English, page 20 to 21 in the
4 Q. Where you note that, in talking about Zepa:
5 "I was present at the talks General Mladic had with the Muslim
6 representatives of Zepa and the commander of the Ukrainian Battalion of
7 UNPROFOR. The talks were also attended by General Zdravko Tolimir, the
8 VRS Main Staff assistant commander for intelligence and security. Upon
9 request of the Muslim side, it was agreed to organise the departure and
10 transport from Zepa for the entire population and members of the brigade
11 in Zepa. They were guaranteed transportation towards the federation of
12 BiH and full safety."
13 So in your view, the Zepa population willingly requested
14 transport out of Zepa on their own free will?
15 A. I didn't understand. I didn't understand.
16 Q. Is it your position from that paragraph that the Muslim
17 population of Zepa requested under their own free will to be transported
18 out of Zepa?
19 A. We received that information from the commander of the
20 Ukrainian Battalion who was stationed in Zepa.
21 Q. You were with General Tolimir, did General Tolimir tell you that
22 he had threatened the Muslim population that if they didn't evacuate
23 military force would be employed?
24 A. General Tolimir never told me that. I was in the information
25 service, so he was not duty-bound to inform me about that.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I intervene here.
2 Witness, my problem is that you make statements in your statement
3 as facts, and then when you are asked questions you tell us you were told
4 this, you got this from another source. Now you say you were told by
5 the - what is it? - the Ukrainian Battalion about what happened, that
6 these people voluntarily left. But you are not saying that in your
7 statement that you were told this by that battalion. You are just
8 telling us this as a fact. This is the same -- this is the fourth time
9 now we get an incident where you state things and then when you are asked
10 you say: No, no, no I didn't read that, I got it from another source.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I attended the
12 conversation between General Mladic and the Bosnia-Herzegovina UNPROFOR
13 commander. At that time it was noted - there was a representative of the
14 Ukrainian Battalion there, too - and he said that the Muslim side --
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I stop you.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- of the Ukrainian --
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are not answering my question. My question
18 is: Why do you tell us things as facts which you actually do not know?
19 Which -- and you don't tell us that you were told this. You are talking
20 in your statement as if you are talking as a first-hand person with
21 first-hand knowledge, but when you are asked you tell us: No, no, no, I
22 was told this by somebody or I read it in IPF, not in NIOD. This has
23 been constant in your evidence this morning.
24 Now, I mean ...
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I said that I attended
1 the meeting when the commander of the Ukrainian Battalion in charge of
2 Zepa presented the position to General Smith and General Mladic. I was
3 there and I heard it myself. This is not second-hand or third-hand
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: No. It is second-hand information to you, and
6 that's exactly my question: Why in your statement don't you say: The
7 Ukrainian Battalion told us this at the meeting? You're not -- there is
8 no mention of the battalion in this paragraph.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I agree with you, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's right. That's the point I'm making to you.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY:
13 Q. Let me show you P01471. This is a report on the 13th of July
14 from General Tolimir to the Main Staff, sector for intelligence and
15 security, and General Krstic personally, and others. Reporting on his
16 contact with Hamdija Torlak and Mujo Omanovic who were the civilian
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: And if we go to page 2 in the English.
19 MR. IVETIC: I'm sorry, do we have the right number? Because the
20 document on the screen is not what's being described.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I think now we have a document which comes closer to
22 the description.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. I think we've got the right one up.
24 JUDGE ORIE: At the same time, the translation seems to be an
25 excerpt of the original? Because it starts with 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and left
1 out the heading.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: The part I want to show to him is the part right
3 after the numbers. If we --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but we would like to know what we are looking
5 at, Mr. McCloskey.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we --
7 JUDGE ORIE: So if in one way or another you could --
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could blow the Serbian up, it's the
9 complete document, I think. But it's just disappeared.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Let's have a look.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: And you can see it in page 1 of the English if
12 you want them to match.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There we have it. Now we know what we are
14 looking at.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: And if we could go to page 2 in the English, but
16 for the Serbian, blow up the part just below number 5.
17 Q. And as General Tolimir is talking about his contact with these
18 Muslim representatives, he tells his superiors:
19 "We rejected their first request and we made a condition that all
20 necessary consultations had to be completed by 1500 hours and that the
21 evacuation had to start at that time. We have conditioned this with an
22 alternative solution - military force."
23 So, sir, this is a real document, a serious report. And when
24 civilian representatives are given the option either evacuate or face
25 military force, the civilians really don't have any free will after that,
1 do they?
2 A. I must say that I don't know anything about this document. I'm
3 seeing it for the first time. General Tolimir was not obliged to inform
4 me about it. I was summoned by General Mladic simply to come to Zepa
5 with a team of journalists. I arrived there and spent two or three days
6 there while the evacuation of the people from Zepa was being prepared.
7 Q. All right. So if this is an accurate report and the Muslims were
8 facing this illegal threat or this threat, I won't say whether it's
9 illegal or not, I take it you would like to withdraw paragraph 97 where
10 you conclude that the Muslims left or -- where the Muslims were -- agreed
11 to leave voluntarily or words to that effect? You would like to change
12 that or delete it, I take it?
13 A. My information, starting from the initial information, that that
14 was what they opted for, I don't see -- I mean, the circumstances might
15 have been different but the information that I had at that time, and even
16 later, indicated that the Bosniaks requested to leave Zepa through the
17 UNPROFOR command. But it's up to the Court to --
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. -- take that position.
20 Q. You, yourself, did you get personally involved in communicating,
21 helping the VRS to communicate to the civilians and other people in Zepa?
22 A. I personally, with my journalists and even other journalists who
23 were not part of the press centre, went down to Zepa. I was in Zepa
24 practically that whole day during the preparations for the evacuation. I
25 must say that I was wearing a uniform at the time, that I was in touch
1 with many people who were there. And at any point in time did I feel
2 anything of ill will from anyone of the people there among the
3 population? It was quite the opposite. I was in the first buses to
4 reach Boksanica, General Mladic was there, a CNN team was already there,
5 and then General Mladic came into one of the buses, he shook hands and
6 greeted everybody. There is footage of that. And General Mladic told
7 everyone in each of those buses that they should not be afraid of
8 anything, that they would all be transported to the territory of the
9 federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina and this is what was done.
10 Q. And what did General Mladic mean when he said on videotape:
11 "I see that there are able-bodied men among you. I give you your
12 life as a gift"?
13 A. I must say that I don't know what General Mladic meant. But the
14 previous promise was that all those who laid down their arms could leave
15 freely, so I wouldn't comment on that part of the statement because I
16 really don't know what General Mladic meant when he said that.
17 Q. Did you know that Muslims, who you say were not afraid, had
18 received information the Muslims from Zepa, that there had been mass
19 killings in Srebrenica? You should -- certainly you would have heard
20 about that by then, and did you know that the Muslim knew that?
21 A. Sir, even though I was chief of the information services of the
22 army, up until that moment - which is 15 days later - practically did not
23 know about the crimes that had occurred in Srebrenica. So if I was not
24 aware of that, I don't know whether and through which channels the
25 Bosniaks in Zepa could have been informed about it. All I'm saying to
1 you is that I spent the entire day in Zepa, it was very cordial. I even
2 had photographs taken with different people. Nothing unpleasant happened
3 to me. Quite the opposite. I felt as if I were among normal people with
4 whom you can establish communication.
5 Q. Did you actually arrange with a security officer in Zepa that
6 loudspeakers be used to give information to the Muslim population of
8 A. There was that, yes. So that they do not put up resistance and
9 for them to assemble in specific areas where they would be received by
10 the Army of Republika Srpska.
11 Q. Yes, with messages like "resistance is futile"? You took part in
12 that, personally?
13 A. I mean, it is correct. I didn't take part in that personally,
14 others did. But I was present when such messages were broadcast. And I
15 think that this was very positive, because we did not have any problems
16 in Zepa with the assembly of people, the departure, or any type of
17 provocations during that entire procedure in Zepa.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we see P3472.
19 JUDGE ORIE: When we're waiting for it, Witness, you said "15
20 days later." Fifteen days later to what?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After the people had been boarded
22 in Srebrenica.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Are you -- is it your evidence that 15 days after
24 the departure of many inhabitants of Srebrenica that had boarded buses,
25 that there was no knowledge whatsoever about large numbers of Srebrenica
1 inhabitants or -- had lost their lives? Fifteen days later you would say
2 nothing was known about that to you?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, once people boarded
4 the buses in Srebrenica, I went to my headquarters in Han Pijesak. I
5 understand your question. I really, before Zepa, did not know what had
6 happened in Srebrenica.
7 JUDGE ORIE: You were not aware 15 days after the events that a
8 large number of, especially men, had lost their lives when --
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I only knew of combat operations
10 that were ongoing. And then for several nights, with some ten or 15 men
11 I provided security for our own headquarters from the --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I was specifically avoiding any reference
13 to how they lost their lives. Were you aware 15 days after the
14 Srebrenica -- where the -- the population of Srebrenica being escorted
15 out or leaving in any other ways, that a large number of men, I'm
16 thinking in terms of thousands, had lost their lives? You were not aware
17 of that?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was not aware of that.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And is it your position that this was
20 generally unknown to the -- even though rumours in the media, it was just
21 unknown to everyone and therefore the population of Zepa could not have
22 known about it? Is that your position?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, this is not my position. I am
24 not saying that they were not informed by some other sources, but I don't
25 know that.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you -- and I'll just read to you what you said
2 a minute ago. One second, please.
3 If the parties could assist me where the witness explained. I
4 have some difficulties in finding where he --
5 MR. IVETIC: Temporary transcript page 50, lines 6 through 12 --
6 6 through 14, Your Honours, is the answer of the witness.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You said that you were not aware of that,
8 apparently referring to what had happened in Srebrenica:
9 "I don't know whether and through which channels the Bosniaks in
10 Zepa could have been informed about that."
11 Whereas you're now telling us that there may have been other
12 sources that allowed them to get acquainted with information about
13 persons being killed.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, according to the
15 information that we received at the meeting with Rupert Smith, some
16 1.000 Bosniaks who had been in Srebrenica crossed the terrain across Zepa
17 and went in the direction of Gorazde. I suppose that those could have
18 been the people who informed the people in Zepa about the situation in
19 Srebrenica or at least some elements thereof.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. --
21 MR. IVETIC: And, Your Honours, if I may point out, temporary
22 transcript page 52, lines 7 through 9, the witness actually said the
23 exact same thing, that he does not know. And in the first instance it
24 was he does not know whether they were informed. So there is no
25 contradiction as Your Honours had indicated with your question. The
1 witness has testified twice identically.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Well, whether you do not know and whether you do not
3 know how someone could possibly have received -- could have received that
4 information is not exactly the same. But let's leave it to that.
5 We'll take a break first, and we would like to see you back in
6 20 minutes, Witness.
7 Mr. McCloskey.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. If we could -- the excerpt from
9 65 ter 02410 has now been uploaded into e-court under 65 ter 02410A.
10 JUDGE ORIE: And we had reserved a number for that.
11 Madam Registrar?
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: P07023? I give Ms. Stewart credit for that.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
14 You may follow the usher.
15 [The witness stands down]
16 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at 20 minutes past midday.
17 --- Recess taken at 12.02 p.m.
18 --- On resuming at 12.20 p.m.
19 JUDGE ORIE: While we are waiting for the witness to be escorted
20 into the courtroom, we might deal briefly with translation replacements.
21 In relation to P6966, is there a new translation uploaded that
22 should replace the old one, Mr. Tieger?
23 MR. TIEGER: Yes, it has been uploaded, Mr. President, under
24 doc ID 0671-2054-A-ET.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Then the newly uploaded translation of which the
1 doc ID was just mentioned by Mr. Tieger may replace the existing English
2 translation in e-court.
3 [The witness takes the stand]
4 JUDGE ORIE: And Madam Registrar is instructed to that
6 Mr. McCloskey.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
8 Q. Sir, I'm just -- a simple document before you. I just wanted to
9 confirm with you that this is accurate. It shows that you were in some
10 way working with Captain Guduras, a security officer from the 1st Krajina
11 Corps in -- in the use of those loudspeakers for Zepa. Does this reflect
12 your memory of the situation?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay. Let's go back to your -- the NIOD -- interview that you
15 had with NIOD.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: 65 ter 31807. Page 10 in the English.
17 Q. And it's a very, very short note or part of their report that
18 I'll read to you. Something they obviously are reporting that you told
20 "Mladic was very interested in the opinion of the West. Every
21 morning Milutinovic's organisation compiled an analysis of reports in
22 foreign newspapers, and Mladic read them."
23 So first of all, is the first sentence correct, that Mladic was
24 interested in the opinion of the West during these war years?
25 A. Every commander needs to be informed. Therefore, he has to be
1 aware of the public opinion and the position of the public towards
2 certain issues. I agree that this is very correct. I had some dozen
3 women who monitored the media. During that time, most of the time we did
4 not have electricity and we could not follow the media. However, we made
5 sure that the media summaries from Croatia, Bosnia, and Serbia, as well
6 as the foreign media, especially BBC, was available to us. We then
7 analysed those reports and submitted a summary of such media reports to
8 the Main Staff. So this is true.
9 I suppose that General Mladic received such information on top of
10 other things, and he was thus abreast of the positions of the West
11 vis-à-vis certain developments in the territory of Bosnia and
13 Q. All right. And you knew a journalist named Robert Block or you
14 knew of a journalist named Robert Block?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. All right.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's go to 65 ter 19242.
18 Q. Now, this is this paper called "The Independent," which I -- this
19 is the same paper you cited in your report, is it not?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you were just answering questions of the President regarding
22 the issue of sources of information, what people may have known, when
23 they knew it. So let's take a look at this article.
24 We see that as early on as July 14th that information in this
25 article is being disseminated. I won't go through the details of it, but
1 it talks about the deportation of thousands of terrified Muslims being
2 deported from Srebrenica. It also says in paragraph 5 that:
3 "Men of fighting age have been taken away by the Bosnian Serbs
4 for what they said was 'screening.'"
5 So you were in the Hotel Fontana on the 12th of July at the
6 morning meeting that has been filmed, were you not, where there were
7 Muslim representatives there, it was a morning meeting, you had --
8 Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic was at your left and Radislav Jankovic was on
9 your right. Do you remember that?
10 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I object to the question. It's a
11 narrative mixing and matching now a document and then it's a -- it's
12 pointing attention to a document and then going to another topic. If
13 there is a question about the document, the question should be stated.
14 We should not have a -- the Prosecutor testifying and giving us arguments
15 about something, especially arguments that contradict his own witnesses
16 about what happened in Srebrenica. We had General Cornelius Nicolai who
17 said that the UN for the people to be removed from Srebrenica because of
18 the hygenic conditions in the area. And now Mr. McCloskey is citing to a
19 newspaper article, which apparently he wants in evidence, he's not asking
20 the witness questions about the article. He's reading the article and
21 then he's going on to different topic. It's highly improper.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I was still waiting for his question. I
23 considered this to be a kind of a refreshment of the witness's memory as
24 to his presence during that meeting and that we would then hear questions
25 about what he introduced earlier. And I think the witness in his
1 statement stated that he attended the meeting, although, Mr. McCloskey,
2 who he was sitting to next, et cetera, may be details which the witness
3 would not have needed to remember that he was at the morning meeting at
4 Hotel Fontana.
5 Were you there, Witness?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed. And now I take it that you move to
8 questions in relation to the -- to what you introduced earlier,
9 Mr. McCloskey.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Precisely. Thank you, Mr. President.
11 Q. So this Court has heard evidence that at that morning meeting
12 Mladic announced that men would be screened to look for war criminals.
13 Is that correct? Did Mladic say something along those lines at this
15 A. Mladic said something along these lines: All the men for whom
16 there is a suspicion that they had committed crimes over the Serbian
17 people would be kept. As far as I know, a number of those were kept and
18 then five days later they were handed over to the Red Cross. That's what
19 I heard.
20 Q. And so this report that comes out two days later that makes a
21 reference to screening, that's similar to what you had heard Mladic
22 actually say at the meeting? People screened for war crimes.
23 A. Yes. But one thing gets forgotten: In Eastern Bosnia, i.e.,
24 Podrinje, about 3200 Serbian civilians had died from 1992 onwards at the
25 hands of Naser Oric and his criminal organisation. The Serbian
1 authorities already had lists of those who had committed crimes and we
2 had in mind those people who had been known or who were on our records as
3 those who had participated in the commission of those crimes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, also in your statement we now and then see
5 a reference to what is forgotten. What is forgotten by whom?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand. What do you
8 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you say: But things get forgotten. If you
9 think that we are forgetting something, is that what you mean? Or the
10 media? Or --
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I did not mean you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: But if the press had forgotten something then -- the
13 media had forgotten something, that's none of our concern.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The media ignored that area.
15 JUDGE ORIE: You say that as well. Now, that is not of relevance
16 for us unless a specific leaving out of information would turn out to be
17 relevant for our determinations. But there is no need to, in general --
18 to say in general terms what was forgotten in the media or by the people
19 or by whomever. So please refrain from such general statements.
20 Please proceed.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY:
22 Q. So, Colonel, this article is the kind of thing that you would
23 have wanted your team to be able to collect and provide information to
24 General Mladic in the Main Staff?
25 A. Probably I would have informed him about that. But let me
1 repeat: We were completely isolated there. There was no electricity.
2 We had generators and we could listen to the BBC, we could read
3 Washington Post there and some other media but not many. In other words,
4 we did not have access to all the media. I don't know what you had in
5 mind. Robert Block was in Bosnia and Herzegovina on several occasions.
6 We know that he authored a text to refute the allegation that Serbs raped
7 a lot of non-Serb women. I know that on the 28th of June, 1995, during
8 the liberation of the anniversary [as interpreted] of the Serbian army, I
9 asked General Mladic to give an interview, a rather long interview to
11 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you're moving pretty far away from what the
12 question was.
13 Mr. McCloskey, could you please.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yup.
15 Q. So I take it from that you trusted Robert Block enough to have
16 Mladic give him an interview, but your team wasn't with you in Potocari.
17 They were back in Han Pijesak, Crna Rijeka, were they not? Were they --
18 MR. IVETIC: Object. It's a compound question. Again, he's
19 mixing two questions together.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please split it up, Mr. McCloskey.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY:
22 Q. Your team wasn't with you? Weren't members of your team still
23 back at Han Pijesak or Crna Rijeka?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And they would have access to the wire services, to newspapers
1 like "The Independent"?
2 A. BBC, Deutsche Welle, or the Voice of America. That's all we had
3 access to. We did not receive any printed media. No printed media
4 reached us. Every now and then we received articles or clippings from
5 various newspapers by fax, but those communication lines were very bad
6 and sometimes you had to wait for over a half an hour for just one page
7 to be transmitted by fax.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would offer this exhibit into evidence.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Document 19242 receives Exhibit P7024,
11 Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's go to another Robert Block article,
14 65 ter 12892.
15 Q. This article -- we can see it's dated up near the top that it's
16 dated July 17th. He's reporting out of --
17 JUDGE ORIE: We have -- we have two B/C/S documents, apparently
18 not the same, on our screen. Could we have -- yes. There we are, I
19 think. No. Well, I'm quite certain it's -- it's both "Independent" but
20 could we --
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's the correct English version.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but I wonder whether the B/C/S is the
23 translation of this document.
24 MR. IVETIC: The B/C/S has the date 14 July. This document has
25 the date 23 July.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could we have the B/C/S version next to the
2 English one. There we are.
3 Please proceed.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY:
5 Q. And this shows that he is reporting out of Belgrade. So you
6 had -- you're especially -- your headquarters in Crna Rijeka or
7 Han Pijesak had access to communications from Belgrade; correct?
8 A. There was just one line, which was often down.
9 Q. Well, clearly you received information from official sources in
10 Belgrade in your work for -- in public information?
11 A. I must say that we did not have anybody in Belgrade. We were
12 part of the Main Staff of the VRS.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Witness --
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not have a single associate
15 in Belgrade.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, the question was not whether or not you had
17 someone in Belgrade but whether you received information from official
18 sources in Belgrade. You don't need to have someone in Belgrade to
19 receive that information. Did you receive information from official
20 sources from Belgrade?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you're referring to Tanjug? Is
22 that who you're referring to?
23 JUDGE ORIE: I'm referring to nothing.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not have communication with
25 anybody else.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY:
3 Q. But you did have communication with Tanjug?
4 A. Their correspondents came to see me in Han Pijesak. I must admit
5 that during the war I received about 4700 foreign journalists and I had
6 briefings with all of them, and that's how our positions were
7 communicated. We issued communiques or we organised press conferences,
8 and that's how we conveyed our message to the general public or received
9 messages from the general public in that way.
10 Q. All right. I won't go over all of this, but please take a look
11 at it. It's describing a video that apparently Robert Block had seen.
12 And he talks about seeing, in the third paragraph, the horror of
13 Srebrenica, and he had the technician stop the film, and I quote:
14 "When the technician stopped the film, there it was, in
15 freeze-frame, the horror of Srebrenica, in piles two feet high. The
16 bundles were clearly not empty clothes. They were heads, arms, and legs.
17 The fit body of a young man in the foreground filled out a white T
18 -shirt. The bodies up against the wall looked to be three deep in
19 places. It was impossible to make out the exact number, but 25 would be
20 a reasonable guess."
21 He goes on to talk about stains and bullet holes. And then he
23 "The implication of the report by the independent Serb television
24 channel Studio B, which was not overtly pro-Bosnian Serb but clearly
25 sympathetic, was that these were Muslim soldiers killed in combat. The
1 scene, however, looked more like a place of summary execution than of
3 Now, are you aware of this famous footage referred to -- that was
4 taken by a journalist that you have mentioned in your report named
5 Zoran Petrovic, known as Pirocanac?
6 A. Pirocanac is not from Republika Srpska. He was not a member of
7 the Army of Republika Srpska.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, please listen to the question. The
9 question is whether you are aware of the footage which is referred to in
10 this article by Mr. Block and which, as Mr. McCloskey suggests, is made
11 by Mr. Petrovic, are you aware of that footage?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I became aware of that footage only
13 some 10 to 15 days after the event.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Please proceed.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right.
16 Q. So this article is a description of that footage, is it not?
17 That footage shot by Petrovic.
18 A. Are you waiting for my answer?
19 Q. Yes. It's a simple question. This -- this article is describing
20 the Petrovic film, is it not?
21 A. That Petrovic film shows that for only a few seconds. I didn't
22 see anything special in that footage, save for that one second perhaps
23 that was shown of that.
24 Q. But you would agree with me that this article detailing what I
25 have read out is a description of that film? He mentions Studio B.
1 A. I agree that that may well be the case. However, if something is
2 shown only for one second, I believe that that one second is not
3 relevant. It doesn't have to be relevant.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Witness --
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And I only learned about that --
6 JUDGE ORIE: -- we are not discussing at this moment how relevant
7 that this. Mr. McCloskey would like to know, and you have answered that
8 question, that what is described here, that you think it's well possible
9 that that's a description of the Petrovic video.
10 Please proceed.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY:
12 Q. And Mr. Block says that this tape was shot on the Thursday, two
13 days after Srebrenica was overrun. The Court has heard evidence that
14 that film was shot on the 13th of July, which I'm sure the Defence would
15 agree was two days after the 11th when Srebrenica was taken. So we can
16 see that the world has been made aware of the events depicted in this
17 film just four days after they occurred on 17 July. You'd agree with me
18 on that?
19 A. I did not have information that it had reached that level. You
20 know there was a war going on and situations like that always result in
21 human loss. I didn't know how much of that was true, whether it was
22 real. There were a lot of games being played in Bosnia and one had to
23 wait for the information to be corroborated and verified in order to come
24 out with the facts.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milutinovic, will you please answer the
1 question now. The question is would you agree with Mr. McCloskey that by
2 the 17th of July the world was informed about what happened in Srebrenica
3 four days earlier? Do you agree or don't you agree?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Partly, yes.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Thank you.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But -- but --
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's enough.
8 Mr. McCloskey.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY:
10 Q. Is this the kind of information that General Mladic would have
11 wanted to know about?
12 A. Of course, yes. Certainly. And I believe that we managed to
13 convey part of that information to the Main Staff. But we did not know
14 whether those were individual or group or mass executions, and what kind
15 of a crime had been committed in that area. What's the extent of the
16 crime committed in the area.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask one short follow-up question.
18 You also did not know who had committed those crimes?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would offer this into evidence.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Document 12892 receives Exhibit Number P7025,
24 Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY:
2 Q. Tell us, if you will, any specific efforts you personally made to
3 obtain a copy of the Petrovic film?
4 A. Some ten days later I learned about the existence of that film.
5 Some journalists from Belgrade informed me about its existence, which
6 means that I learnt there and then about that existence. Journalists
7 informed me that they were ready to hand that film over.
8 Q. So what did you do?
9 A. I informed the Main Staff, i.e. General Tolimir, that a film of
10 that kind existed. I told him where it was and how to obtain it, because
11 journalists were willing to hand it over to the Main Staff.
12 Q. Roughly how long after Srebrenica fell did you inform
13 General Tolimir of this film?
14 A. Some ten days later, after having received confirmation from the
15 journalists who had arrived from Belgrade that a film of that kind
17 Q. Okay. So going back to our chronology of -- Srebrenica fell on
18 the 11th of July, roughly ten days would be the 21st of July. Tolimir
19 and you and General Mladic were together in Zepa. And the bus that
20 Mladic got on as the Zepa folks were leaving was the 25th of July. So by
21 the time General Mladic got on the bus and made his comments, he would
22 have been aware of the existence of the Petrovic film.
23 A. He may have known because I informed General Tolimir that there
24 was a film, that it was in Belgrade, and that journalists were willing to
25 hand it over. I don't have any subsequent information as to whether that
1 was done or not, and if it was, who was it who had taken the film over.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me just ask you a question.
3 As chief of the information centre, did you not inform
4 General Mladic in -- as soon as you became aware of the existence of this
5 film that there was such a film in existence?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I must say that I did not serve as
7 directly subordinated to General Mladic but to Milan Gvero, the assistant
8 commander for information, morale guidance, and legal affairs.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: So you --
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And I told him of the existence of
11 the film.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me stop you there. You've testified earlier
13 today that you and your assistants compiled information in the press
14 centre which you passed on to Mr. Mladic. I'm just asking you whether
15 you did not tell Mr. Mladic immediately you heard of the existence of the
16 film that such a film did exist. Yes or no? You told Tolimir. Did you
17 tell Mr. Mladic? That's all I'm asking.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I drafted reports to the
19 Main Staff, you know. Not to General Mladic personally.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. If I can stop you there. I see you don't
21 want to answer my question.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And then my information was
23 distributed in the Main Staff.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let's leave it.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY:
2 Q. You knew, didn't you, that General Mladic left the Bratunac area
3 where you had been with him on the 13th and travelled right by -- right
4 along that road where those bodies were piled up, the same day that they
5 were -- it was filmed. You must have known that?
6 MR. IVETIC: Objection. Misstates the evidence.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, could you first of all split up the
8 matter. Whether it misstates the evidence, I think that in a leading
9 question it's not necessarily what is already the evidence. But if there
10 is any clear contradiction, Mr. McCloskey, it would be better to avoid
12 Please proceed.
13 MR. IVETIC: Well, Your Honours, the Prosecution has indicated
14 and asked the witness to agree, and I think even asked the Defence to
15 agree, that this is the Petrovic video which, my understanding is, shows
16 Kravica which is not --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic.
18 MR. IVETIC: -- a road.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, you're now aware of what apparently
20 is on the mind of Mr. Ivetic. Could you please take matters step by
22 MR. IVETIC: And then just to complete, Your Honours. The
23 videotape of --
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection to -- he's now arguing and he's trying
25 to communicate something to the witness.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --
2 MR. IVETIC: Without the witness I'll repeat the same things.
3 This is an objection to the manner of the question.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, if there is anything that could
5 possibly --
6 THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic should remain silent. He knows what the
8 consequences would be.
9 If there is anything that could possibly be understood as a hint
10 to the witness, you should ask the witness to take his earphones off
12 MR. IVETIC: Then I'll ask the witness to take his earphones off,
13 Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please take your earphones off, Witness.
15 Mr. Mladic is supposed to sit down and he can consult with
16 Mr. Stojanovic at a nonaudible - nonaudible - volume.
17 Mr. Ivetic.
18 MR. IVETIC: I will simplify my objection in the most simple
19 manner possible: Is it the Prosecution's position and what evidence they
20 are citing in this question that General Mladic was present at Kravica on
21 the afternoon when the footage was shot?
22 JUDGE ORIE: That is -- you are seeking the position of the
24 Mr. McCloskey, you are suggesting to the witness that Mr. Mladic
25 traveled a certain trajectory on a certain day. Is that --
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yeah, my --
2 MR. IVETIC: Because if that's the case, then it's running afoul
3 of the joint submission we made with the Prosecution that they stipulated
4 to as to the whereabouts of General Mladic. So that's why I'm asking.
5 Because if we don't have an agreement, I'm going to ask for more evidence
6 to be brought.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Well, Mr. Ivetic, could you please, and forgive me
8 for not having the stipulation exactly on my mind in this moment, in
9 violation of what exact stipulation you think Mr. McCloskey is asking a
10 leading question from the witness?
11 Could you please answer my question, Mr. Ivetic. And I would
12 prefer you listen to me rather than to talk to Mr. Stojanovic when I'm
13 addressing you. But please, what exactly -- what stipulation exactly you
14 say Mr. McCloskey is acting contrary to.
15 MR. IVETIC: We have, the Prosecution and the Defence, about the
16 whereabouts of General Mladic during the time-period of July the 13th
17 through July the 16th have presented to the Chamber agreement as to
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MR. IVETIC: At no point in time has it been suggested that
21 General Mladic was in Kravica during the time-period that the Petrovic
22 video was filmed and that the alleged scenes depicted in that video would
23 have been -- would have been filmed.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Does the stipulation --
25 MR. IVETIC: The question --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Does the stipulation exclude, leaves no room for the
2 possibility that Mr. Mladic would have been on the date at which the
3 footage was shot in Kravica?
4 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I submit, since the Prosecution has
5 rested their case, that, yes, that since they have not presented evidence
6 of that during their case in chief they are precluded from that.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Well, Mr. Ivetic, I'm also inviting you to listen to
8 my question.
9 MR. IVETIC: Okay.
10 JUDGE ORIE: You say that the Prosecution is acting against the
11 stipulation, and I asked you whether the stipulation is such that it
12 excludes what Mr. McCloskey is suggesting to the witness. That's my
13 question. Not whether they have presented evidence or not on matters.
14 And could we just have the stipulation. I have the text here now.
15 Yes. I have it before me. Does this stipulation exclude the
16 presence of Mr. Mladic.
17 And could we have another copy?
18 MR. IVETIC: My recollection is the only part that was in dispute
19 was when General Mladic returned to --
20 JUDGE ORIE: But that --
21 MR. IVETIC: -- the theatre of Bosnia and Herzegovina, whether it
22 would have been on the 16th, the 17th, and what time. That was what was
23 the communications between the parties at the time that the stipulation
24 was being prepared.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --
1 MR. IVETIC: And I again stress -- yes, go ahead.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, I am looking at the text of the
3 stipulation and I'm asking myself, because that's the objection, whether
4 Mr. McCloskey, by putting this question, is not honouring what he
5 stipulated to. And I suggest that you have a close look at it. If you
6 need a copy, we'll provide you with a copy, rather than to work on the
7 basis of what you seem to remember.
8 It may well be all true or not, but I just -- I would like to
9 have it --
10 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, my objection was not based on the
11 stipulation. My explanation was based on the stipulation. My objection
12 was that it misstates the evidence. There has been no evidence led
13 during the Prosecution's case in chief --
14 JUDGE ORIE: But --
15 MR. IVETIC: [Overlapping speakers] ...
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic --
17 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: -- is it your position that in a leading question
19 you can only put something to the witness which -- for which evidence has
20 been received, or isn't it one of the specific features of a leading
21 question that you can suggest to a witness a fact which has not yet been
22 established? I thought always that's my understanding of what a leading
23 question is, which is permitted in cross-examination.
24 MR. IVETIC: When it relates to the alleged presence of the
25 accused at a site where a crime is alleged to have happened, I believe
1 the Prosecution has an obligation to lead that evidence in their case in
2 chief and not to try to present questions as if it's been proven when
3 it's not been proven.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: I might be able to help here.
5 JUDGE ORIE: You're switching -- you're switching --
6 MR. IVETIC: That's been my objection since the very first point.
7 I stated it very succinctly.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now this video was taken on the 13th of July
9 is your suggestion, Mr. McCloskey?
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. And I --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- doubt very much that's even contested.
13 MR. IVETIC: Correct. That's not.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: And I --
15 JUDGE ORIE: No, no.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- think I can clear this up, Mr. President.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Let's look at the agreed facts.
18 MR. IVETIC: No, he's --
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: No --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic -- Mr. McCloskey, give me one second.
21 Give me one second.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Just trying to help you, Your Honour, I'm sorry.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The agreed facts are split up in dates,
24 13 July, 14 July, 15 July, 16th of July. The one and only fact agreed
25 upon for the 13th of July is: On the evening of 13 July,
1 General Ratko Mladic was at the Main Staff's command post in Crna Rijeka.
2 Nothing in addition to that. So therefore whether it misstates the
3 evidence is a different matter. I think that -- but it certainly does
4 not, as was your argument earlier, violate in this respect what was
5 agreed which is only where Mr. Mladic was at the evening of the 13th of
6 July, that is, in Crna Rijeka.
7 Let's leave it to that.
8 Mr. McCloskey --
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: If I could briefly respond, he's asked for our
10 position. He's made some serious allegations.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: And I think I can help clear this up.
13 He's misunderstood what I have said. I did not say that
14 General Mladic was at the Kravica warehouse when the Petrovic film was
15 being filmed. I said, which is clear in the question, that
16 General Mladic went along the same road on the same day that Petrovic
17 went. And I will make as a factual -- he asked for our position. Our
18 position is that in the afternoon General Mladic went by the Kravica
19 warehouse, stopped at the Sandici meadow, and gave a speech. This is --
20 he's agreeing with me. And after he left the Sandici meadow, within a
21 period of time, it's not exactly clear, one to two to three hours,
22 perhaps, men from the Sandici meadow were taken to the Kravica warehouse
23 and butchered.
24 Mladic went on after the Sandici meadow to Konjevic Polje, talked
25 to people, then he went on to Nova Kasaba, and that's the facts that I'm
1 speaking of.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, I think that it's clear to
3 Mr. Ivetic.
4 What I would suggest to you is that where you suggested
5 Mr. Ivetic misunderstood your question, that we ask the witness to put
6 his earphones on again, and that you in short, brief questions revisit
7 the matter you intended to visit ten minutes ago.
8 Please proceed.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY:
10 Q. Sir, did you know that General Mladic had driven by the area
11 where these bodies were filmed the same day they were filmed?
12 A. After boarding the buses and the recording, I went --
13 Q. I'd ask you to answer my question. We're getting --
14 A. -- to Han Pijesak and I don't know.
15 Q. It's getting late. Please answer the question.
16 A. I don't know where Mladic went.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'd offer this in -- excuse me, it's already in
20 Q. Tell us what personally you did to try to obtain the Petrovic
21 video? Did you -- well, strike that. Did you ever get the Petrovic
23 A. I informed the relevant people in the Main Staff that there
24 was --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Witness --
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- footage.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I'm stopping you there. The simple
3 question is whether you ever obtained a copy of that video. Did you or
4 did you not?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then I have a follow-up question.
7 You talked earlier of just one second of that video being shown.
8 How do you know it was just one second?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a question, did I receive
10 it? I saw it but I did not receive a copy and I did not have it in the
12 MR. McCLOSKEY:
13 Q. Did the VRS receive a copy of this video?
14 A. The Main Staff did receive a copy, yes.
15 Q. So you're distinguishing between yourself and the Main Staff.
16 Aren't you a member of the Main Staff, Colonel?
17 A. I did not have a copy of the film. But --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's --
19 MR. McCLOSKEY:
20 Q. What did you do --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, the more precise the questions are,
22 the less you run into problems as you ran in a minute ago.
23 Please proceed.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY:
25 Q. What involvement did you have in getting the Main Staff a copy of
1 this video?
2 A. I just informed the authorised security services that there was
3 footage. I gave the names of people in Belgrade who had the footage, and
4 then I did not have anything more to do with this matter. It was not in
5 my jurisdiction anymore.
6 Q. Who from the security service are you talking about?
7 A. General Tolimir.
8 Q. And who brought the tape back?
9 A. I don't know.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's look at P1482.
11 Q. No need, I don't think, to go through all of this. But this is a
12 document dated 22 June 1996 in your name. Is that your signature?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And these are your efforts in communicating to the security
15 branch to get this tape from these folks in Belgrade?
16 A. Correct.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's go to P1484.
18 Q. We can see that we now have this, a document, the authorised
19 official of the VRS security body, dated 24 June. And it's a receipt for
20 temporarily seized objects. And it's from the person that you had
21 mentioned in your document, and the object was received by a
22 Naval Captain Ljubisa Beara. So you would have known that Beara came
23 back with a tape that was the subject of your communication?
24 A. But only one year later.
25 Q. So you agree with me that you knew Beara went to Belgrade and got
1 this tape and brought it back?
2 A. But I'm saying that it was one year later, in 1996.
3 Q. Yes. We agree, as we said, that it was in June 1996. The
4 question is simple. You wrote the document to the security branch to get
5 the tape, and you know that Beara brought it back. Is that yes?
6 A. I was informed that it was handed over to the Main Staff, but I
7 don't know then what happened to that footage later.
8 Q. All right.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's go to 65 ter 19246.
10 Q. This is another article from Robert Block, this one dated
11 July 21, 1995. It's entitled: "Mass slaughter in a Bosnian field
12 knee-deep in blood." I don't want go over the details. We can see that
13 it basically reports -- Block is reporting that there had been many
14 people killed after Srebrenica. Was this the kind of information
15 General Mladic would have wanted to be aware of that was out in the
17 A. This is the Western public. It was published on the
18 21st of July. I could have received it only 15 days later.
19 Q. Can you answer my question? Would this have been the kind of
20 information General Mladic would have wanted to know?
21 A. He did receive some texts from our service. I don't know whether
22 this particular text was passed on to him.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would offer it into evidence.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Document 19246 receives Exhibit Number P7026,
1 Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: One last article from Robert Block, 65 ter 19244.
4 Q. This one's dated July 25th, 1995, entitled: "'River killings'
5 shed light on scale of horror after the fall of Srebrenica." And in this
6 article he reports that people on the Serbian side of the Drina see
7 killings and they go over and they take a man that is named in this
8 article, Resid Halilovic, over to Loznica. Is Loznica across the river,
9 more or less, from a place called Kozluk? Kozluk's in Bosnia, Loznica's
10 in Serbia?
11 A. Precisely, yes.
12 Q. Have you heard of this account but not under the name
13 Resid Halilovic, under the name of Resid Sinanovic, who was a former
14 police officer in the Srebrenica police department before the war?
15 A. No, I never heard that story.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would offer this into evidence.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Document 19244 receives Exhibit Number P2 --
19 7027, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: P7027 is admitted.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: And if we could have 65 ter 31714, but it should
22 not be broadcast.
23 Q. It's a -- this is an intercept conversation, sir, that is dated
24 on the 13th of July, the -- from the CSB of Tuzla. And it basically says
25 on the 13th of July, and I'll quote:
1 "The same day at 2335 hours we recorded a conversation between
2 journalist Goran Malnaga and Vesna Stupar."
3 Who is Goran Malnaga?
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: We still don't have the document on the screen.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't see an image of the
6 document here.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Could you verify the number, Mr. McCloskey.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: 31714.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Not to be broadcast.
10 Mr. McCloskey, the Registrar has some difficulties in getting
11 anything else on the screen under that number.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm fine if we don't see it. It's pretty short
13 and I'll be very careful. It's -- I'm sure we'll figure it out because
14 it's -- we've confirmed these, I believe.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Well, for the time being you may proceed. But
16 please be extremely accurate on what you quote from a document we have
17 not on our screens.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Janet says --
19 JUDGE ORIE: There we are.
20 Yes, please proceed.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY:
22 Q. So I was reading that first paragraph and I ask you who
23 Goran Malnaga was.
24 A. A journalist at the press centre.
25 Q. How about Vesna Stupar?
1 A. She covered Bosnia and Herzegovina Radio. She was an analyst.
2 Q. All right. From the press centre?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And it goes on to say that -- it talks about the conversation
5 between those two people and the chief of the Main Staff press centre,
6 Lieutenant-Colonel Milovan Milutinovic, who they couldn't hear.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Main Staff press centre.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Main Staff press centre.
9 Q. So that's you, obviously? And --
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And the -- the CSB folks conclude, they say, as you can see next:
12 "We drew the following conclusion from the conversation:
13 "The Main Staff issued an order that no information related to
14 Srebrenica or Zepa must be made public until further notice."
15 So having in mind what the Muslims say they overheard these two
16 people talking to you about, I would like to go to P02120.
17 MR. IVETIC: If we could find where the document says that this
18 was discussed. It says this is the conclusion reached by the individuals
19 who are allegedly listening to this.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: They say it's a conversation between the three
21 people. They couldn't hear Mr. Milutinovic. That's all I meant by
23 Q. So basically what you're going to see is an order dated the same
24 day as this intercept from General Mladic that everyone will agree, I
25 think, has to do with preventing information leakage. And I know this
1 was a long time ago, Colonel, but do you recall on that period around
2 13 July receiving an order or reading this order or an order like it from
3 General Mladic and then talking to Goran and Vesna about it?
4 A. I agree with you that it was a long time ago. I personally don't
5 remember this document. And the two people that you referred to, I don't
6 think that they -- they are just regular members of the press centre.
7 And in any event, perhaps they could have been talking about this, but I
8 really don't remember.
9 Q. So perhaps they could have been talking with you about this
10 topic. That would have been normal under the circumstances?
11 A. It's possible. But I don't remember it.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, I'm looking at the clock. We should
13 take a break.
14 Could you tell us how much more time you would need after the
15 break? Because we are close to the two hours you claimed.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'll keep it to the two hours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Then let me just ask Madam Registrar to give us
18 detailed information so that you know how many more minutes you have.
19 Mr. Ivetic, as matters stand now, could you give us an indication
20 as how much time you would need in re-examination?
21 MR. IVETIC: Ten minutes or under.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Ten minutes or under.
23 You have ten minutes left, Mr. McCloskey. The Chamber may have a
24 few questions as well.
25 Witness, we take a break of 20 minutes. We would like to see you
1 back after that.
2 And we resume at a quarter to 2.00.
3 Ten minutes remaining, Mr. McCloskey.
4 [The witness stands down]
5 --- Recess taken at 1.23 p.m.
6 --- On resuming at 1.47 p.m.
7 JUDGE ORIE: While we are waiting for the witness to be escorted
8 into the courtroom, I would like to briefly deal with the following
9 matter; that is, the Defence motion to admit the evidence of
10 Witness Milan Tutoric pursuant to 92 ter.
11 On the 19th of November, the Defence filed a motion, a 92 ter
12 motion, for Milan Tutoric. On the 3rd of December, the Prosecution filed
13 its response objecting to the admission of evidence on the grounds that,
14 inter alia, the written statement, first, contains inadmissible opinion
15 evidence and, two, lacks relevance and fails to meet the minimum
16 threshold of reliability. The Prosecution further objects to the
17 introduction of an expert opinion from this witness who is presented by
18 the Defence as a witness of fact. The Chamber would like to hear by
19 Monday, the 12th of January, 2015, an additional submission from the
20 Defence as to whether this witness would be more appropriately presented
21 as a expert witness.
22 MR. TIEGER: Sorry, Mr. President.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MR. TIEGER: Sorry, I'd had a number of housekeeping matters that
25 I've refrained from raising because of time considerations. There is
1 one, however, that may have some time-sensitive implications. So if the
2 Court has any time at the end of the day for one minute to go into
3 private session to address it, I would appreciate it.
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 JUDGE ORIE: We'll certainly -- we're getting nervous as well,
6 Mr. Tieger.
7 Mr. McCloskey, your last ten minutes.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
9 Q. Colonel, I want to take you briefly back to that morning meeting
10 at the Hotel Fontana where you were there with the Muslim representatives
11 and General Mladic made the comment about the screening for war criminals
12 or something to that effect. And that was being filmed, was it not?
13 A. General Mladic asked me to come with a journalist and a
14 cameraman, and we recorded that conversation by VHS cameras. Having
15 provided the necessary information, General Mladic insisted that we
16 should --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, the simple answer is: Yes, it was filmed.
18 Please, Mr. McCloskey.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's go to P1148, which should be e-court
20 page 66.
21 Q. This, for simplicity's sake, is a still of a -- of a film clip
22 that we received many years ago of that meeting. And I'd just want to
23 ask you a question or two about it.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think if we could blow it up. I don't think we
25 need the -- what's on the left side, and I don't think the
1 identifications is really an issue. So I say we don't need the part on
2 the left. I don't -- thank you.
3 Q. And do you see yourself in this photo?
4 A. I do. In the back of the photo.
5 Q. And is that number 3?
6 A. Number 3, yes.
7 Q. And is this, as you remember it, basically the scene that -- at
8 the Hotel Fontana about the time that Mladic made these -- these words
9 about screening for possible war criminals?
10 A. That photo was taken after General Mladic had his conversation
11 with Karremans, and Mladic had agreed to meet with the Muslim delegation
12 the following day.
13 Q. But my --
14 A. Many of these people I saw for the first time, because I'd not
15 had any need to communicate with them ever before.
16 Q. So Mladic's statements to Karremans about screening the prisoners
17 was filmed?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And you were able to sell that film?
20 A. Yes.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. Let's look at 65 ter 20925.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, I'm somewhat puzzled by you calling
23 this the morning meeting and the witness saying that they agreed that the
24 next morning, I think, they would meet with -- the following day. Now, I
25 may be mistaken, but is there any inconsistency there, "the following
2 You are talking about the morning. But was there a morning
3 meeting with another meeting the following day?
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: I am aware of various meetings. I'm not aware of
5 any meeting with this entire group the following day, so that is
6 something that -- that you have identified as a possible complication.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Well, would you please keep in mind that you were
8 talking about a morning meeting and the witness said something about this
9 picture where the next day they would meet again and whether that would
10 be -- I just leave it to you, but -- you said -- let me see.
11 The witness said, at page 85, that the photo was taken after
12 General Mladic has had this conversation and had agreed to meet with the
13 Muslim delegation the following day, which suggests that it's the day
14 before the meeting with the -- and you said paragraph, page 83, line 25,
15 to take the witness briefly back to that morning meeting at the
16 Hotel Fontana. If that causes you no concerns, then I stay out.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Well, we -- the important thing is the morning
18 meeting at the Hotel Fontana with this group where General Mladic made
19 the comment about the screening of war criminals.
20 Q. This photo represents that meeting; correct?
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Maybe before you do so, Mr. McCloskey, you can
22 just check whether the 65 ter number you called is correctly recorded.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: This is --
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Overlapping speakers] --
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: This should not be played. And it --
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, but the number. The number on the record.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, and it's apparently not. It should be
4 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Could you then resume where we left off.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yeah. We could go back to the other -- the still
6 photo, the -- that was e-court page 66, P1148.
7 Q. Colonel, we're just going to go back to try to clear this up.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]
9 JUDGE ORIE: No speaking at audible volume.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY:
11 Q. And the question was: Was this the morning at the Hotel Fontana
12 where Mladic made the comment to the assembled group around this table
13 about screening the war criminals?
14 A. As far as I can remember, the photo was taken in the evening
15 after the conversation with Colonel Karremans.
16 Q. Sir, I can tell you that this is a still of a video that was shot
17 on the 12th of July in the morning when General Mladic was with this
18 entire group. I can show you another photo. Maybe it will help you.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's 1148, e-court P -- page 64.
20 Q. This should be the people that are sitting on the other side of
22 A. Yes, that's on the following day. Karremans and a Muslim
23 delegation from Srebrenica, when Mladic presented his positions to him,
24 i.e., that all those who surrendered their weapons could decide whether
25 to go to Serbia, to the federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina, or --
1 JUDGE ORIE: So the previous day -- could we look at the other
2 picture again.
3 I take it that by careful analysis of the video pictures and
4 the -- such as things on the table, et cetera, that there should be a
5 possibility to verify whether it's same day or the other -- or another
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yeah, there is no -- there will be no dispute
8 on --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- on this.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then please proceed. I don't know how
12 important it is but I noticed that there seemed to be a different
13 understanding of what exactly it was that was depicted here.
14 Please proceed.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY:
16 Q. So on that morning of -- the morning that you meet with all these
17 people that we just saw in the two pictures, did Mladic make the
18 statement that morning that war criminals would be screened, something to
19 that effect?
20 A. As far as I can remember, General Mladic said that to the Muslim
21 delegation. He told them that everybody could come freely, lay down
22 their weapons, and that then they could go wherever they wanted to go
23 without any consequences.
24 Q. I am asking you about the comment about screening for war
25 criminals. Did he make that comment that morning at this meeting that we
1 see the two pictures of?
2 A. I'm not sure whether that happened at this particular meeting or
3 the meeting with the Muslim delegation.
4 Q. Well, sir, maybe I can help you.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's go to the other photograph, which is the --
6 it's another still from the same video. It's page 64. It's just the
7 other side of the table where the Muslims are sitting.
8 Q. It's the same video, it's the same hotel, it's the same people.
9 Is this the delegation that Mladic made the statement about war criminals
11 A. I think so.
12 Q. And as you've stated, this was filmed and you sold the film. Who
13 did you sell the film to of this meeting of the Muslim delegation?
14 A. General Mladic said that the video recordings from Srebrenica
15 should be made public, to show the public that we had nothing to hide,
16 that we had done everything as we should have.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, no one asked you who made you sell that
18 film, why you sold that film. The question is to whom did you sell that
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Repeat? I think it was Reuters.
21 Do you need an explanation at all?
22 JUDGE ORIE: No.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: No.
24 JUDGE ORIE: We just need an answer to the question.
25 Please proceed.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: And one last exhibit --
2 MR. IVETIC: I think we missed the answer of the witness, though,
3 because he said some acronym and then he started talking and then we only
4 heard "Reuters." There was a lot more there that was missed.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Without giving an explanation could you just repeat
6 your answer, which included a reference to Reuters.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that we sold this to
8 Reuters and that they brought some 5.000 dollars and that that was paid
9 into the Main Staff's fund.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. Let's see one last exhibit, 65 ter 20925.
11 This, out of an abundance of caution, should not be broadcast. It's an
13 Q. Now, sir, this is another CSB intercept. This one's dated
14 12 July and there is actually a summary of two intercepts, one at
15 1435 hours and one at 1520 hours. And --
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. McCloskey, I'm going to interrupt you. The
17 65 ter number you give is exactly the same as the 65 ter number of the
18 previous document.
19 My apologies.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: We had the right one up there, however.
21 Q. And we see in the first conversation they've got -- they are
22 mentioning some people, Vesna Stupar again, ITN, and some others, and
23 you. And it sounds like it's talking about the video and selling it.
24 It's the second one I wanted to ask you about. We see that the intercept
25 people are right down at -- near the bottom, it said:
1 "He said that it is about five hours of uncut material and that
2 he offered 15 minutes of it to the agency that Vojo represents for the
3 prices of 30.000 DM. In the conversation that went on for a long time,
4 Milutinovic managed to agree on the sale of the material for 25.000 DM."
5 Is that correct, did you sell that for about 25.000 DM?
6 A. No, because no agency was interested in it at more than 5.000
7 dollars. And we spoke to ITN, IFP, and Reuters.
8 Q. And you sold edited material, you didn't sell them the whole
9 five hours?
10 A. No. They were interested in 15 minutes.
11 Q. And you -- just lastly, I can tell you that the investigation in
12 this case has never found a video of the Hotel Fontana meeting that you
13 talk about as the one with the Muslim representatives, where the --
14 Mladic's statement about screening war criminals was present. Who edited
15 the film that was sold?
16 A. We had a journalist and we had a cameraman who had recorded that.
17 They edited the thing to show the events in Srebrenica within five
18 minutes, and then the complete material was handed over to the archives
19 of the Main Staff. I later learned, when Biljana Plavsic brought IFOR to
20 the command of the Main Staff, that that part of the video archives was
21 part of the documentation that SFOR brought with them, as part of some
22 150 kilogrammes of various materials.
23 Q. Lastly, in any event you'll agree with me that the VRS edited out
24 the part of the video where Mladic talks about screening war criminals?
25 A. If that was done, it was done unintentionally. I didn't have any
1 reason to cut it.
2 Q. Well, you later learned that all those people that were separated
3 in Potocari were summarily executed, didn't you?
4 A. This is the first time I hear something like that.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Nothing further, Mr. President.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic.
7 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honours.
8 If we can have Exhibit P1482 in e-court.
9 Re-examination by Mr. Ivetic:
10 Q. Sir, this is the -- one of the documents that Mr. McCloskey just
11 presented to you. And in reference to the date, I think when it comes up
12 you'll see it's June 1996. There we see now it's the date June 22nd,
13 1996, and you kept telling Mr. McCloskey only one year later, one year
15 I want to ask you to clear up for us: Did the Main Staff obtain
16 a copy of the Pirocanac video in 1996 or at the time of the Zepa
17 operation which was June -- or, pardon me, July of 1995? If you know.
18 A. There were rumours about that video-clip and its existence.
19 However, we learnt about its existence and whereabouts only in 1996. As
20 the chief of that service, I reacted immediately and said that we needed
21 to get that video recording as quickly as possible.
22 Q. Now, sir, we've had evidence at this trial from the Prosecution's
23 own investigator Mr. Blaszczyk, at transcript page 11527 to 11528, that
24 the raw footage in the possession of the Mr. Petrovic-Pirocanac was
25 missing this segment relating to Kravica. Do you know if the tape that
1 the Main Staff received in 1996, did it have this couple seconds' footage
2 from Kravica or was it a copy that did not have that stuff from Kravica?
3 Again, if you know.
4 A. I don't know.
5 Q. Fair enough. Now I would like to focus on your discussions with
6 NIOD. You mentioned during cross-examination that you were relying upon
7 a summary of the NIOD report -- pardon me, the NIOD report I would like
8 to focus on. You said you were relying upon a summary of the NIOD
9 report, and you are quoted as saying IFP which was later AFP and which
10 later became AP. Could you clarify for us what agency had authored the
11 summary of the NIOD report upon which you were relying when discussing
12 the findings?
13 A. As far as I can remember, it was IFP.
14 Q. And whose agency is that? What country do they operate out of?
15 A. As far as I know, it's a French agency.
16 Q. Okay. Now, I would like to focus on the NIOD discussions with
17 yourself. You told us that the discussions with yourself were in Serbian
18 and that there was an English translator present. To your knowledge, was
19 there a Dutch translator present or were all the discussions in English
20 and in Serbian?
21 A. As far as I can remember - and it was a long time ago, 14 years
22 ago - everything was in Dutch or English --
23 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter's correction: In Serbian or
25 MR. IVETIC:
1 Q. And in terms of those discussions with you, did you ever have an
2 opportunity to review any notes or summary of that meeting in any
3 language subsequent to -- at the time that you had the discussions with
4 the representatives from NIOD?
5 A. The introduction and the conversation with NIOD lasted for three
6 days, for ten hours all together. They promised that when everything was
7 over that they would send me a summary to approve. After that I never
8 saw this report until the moment I was proofed for this testimony.
9 Q. Colonel, again, on behalf of General Mladic and the rest of my
10 team, I thank you for answering my questions.
11 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I was under ten minutes. I hope that
12 that helps.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It certainly helps. I'm afraid that I'm
14 disturbing now the order a bit.
15 Questioned by the Court:
16 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could you tell us, your interviews with the
17 NIOD, were they recorded in any way, I mean by audio? If you remember.
18 A. As far as I can remember, there was just the hand-held -- it was
19 a long time ago, 14 years ago, and they did record it.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It was recorded.
21 Now, I do not know, I'm addressing the parties, that where there
22 seems to be some dispute about whether it accurately reflects what the
23 witness said, it may assist the Chamber if the parties could perhaps
24 agree on receiving audio and verifying what is more plausible, that there
25 was a distortion of what the witness said or whether it reflects what he
2 MR. IVETIC: I am not aware of an audio. I would have to defer
3 to the Prosecution, though, since -- well, we didn't have the entirety of
4 the -- we didn't have all the languages of the interview until a day or
5 so ago, so --
6 JUDGE ORIE: No, I see that. But you introduced this material
7 into evidence.
8 But I take it that the Prosecution will certainly assist in
9 trying to seek ways of verifying the accuracy of the interview and the
10 summary of it.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, that -- I believe we -- I'll check
12 and see if we have an audio. This, as you might imagine, is --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Whether you have it or whether you can obtain it,
14 but there seems to be dispute about the matter and the Chamber always
15 prefers to have disputes to be resolved rather than to -- remaining
16 hanging above us.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Well, just so you know, this is very sensitive
18 material for the Dutch Institute. They rely on confidentiality many
19 times to carry these things out, and we'll look into the possibility of
21 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if the parties would look at it on a
22 confidential basis and agree on whether it reflects or does not reflect
23 what the witness told during his interview. But I'm just encouraging you
24 to explore ways by giving an opportunity to the Chamber to better assess
25 the probative value of the evidence of this witness against the
1 background of any possible recording of the interview he gave. Nothing
2 more and nothing less at this moment.
3 Witness, I've a few questions for you. In paragraph 16 of your
4 statement, you say that the Vatican pressured the recognition of the
5 independence of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Could you tell me exactly what
6 your sources are for this statement?
7 A. In early 1992, in Belgrade but also in the republics, an emissary
8 of the Pope visited and after the talks he immediately accused the
9 Serbian side - there are documents, they can be found in the archives in
10 Belgrade and elsewhere - where he, in an argumented manner, tried to
11 accused the Serbs for all the events. What I would particularly like to
12 note is that Pope Wojtyla, on the 8th of March, 1993, at St. Paul's
13 Square, instead of calling for peace he begged God to punish the Serbs
14 with bombing. And there are written records of this, written documents.
15 So with this in mind I said that the Vatican throughout the entire war in
16 its way tried to place itself on the side of one side only and protect
17 it --
18 JUDGE ORIE: One second. Just for me to understand, are you
19 saying that on the 8th of March, 1993, the Pope begged God to punish the
20 Serbs with bombing? Is that -- is there any recording of that? I
21 would -- Mr. Mladic should refrain from any expressions when the witness
22 is giving his testimony.
23 I -- it could well be that the Pope was at St. Paul's Square. I
24 take it that that is easy to be verified. But what he said in March 1993
25 cannot explain the pressure by the Vatican in April 1992. Could you be a
1 bit more precise on who visited, who was it, the representative of the
2 Pope? You remember who it was?
3 A. I can't remember who it was now.
4 JUDGE ORIE: No. And did he accused the Serbs of something or
5 did he say you -- the republic of -- one second, please. Or did he say
6 that the independence of Bosnia and Herzegovina had to be recognised?
7 A. He did not mention Bosnia and Herzegovina at all. He accused the
8 Serbs for the events in Croatia and for the beginning of the armed
9 conflict in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's understood what the source is and what
11 the source exactly contained.
12 I have another question for you. You say that Fikret Alic, and
13 that's paragraph 44 of your statement, was suffering from tuberculosis.
14 What's your source for that?
15 A. Trnopolje is my birthplace. I knew most of the people there.
16 And after that footage, the locals there said: Why did they take him?
17 Because he's suffering from tuberculosis. So it comes from the place
19 JUDGE ORIE: So where you say in paragraph 44:
20 "Fikret Alic was suffering from tuberculosis."
21 What you intended to say was Fikret Alic was said to suffer from
22 tuberculosis by other persons living in Trnopolje. Did you ever see any
23 medical record of that?
24 A. No, I didn't.
25 JUDGE ORIE: No.
1 If the parties would have any additional information, of course
2 the Chamber is always willing to address that.
3 Finally, I have a question on paragraph 109 where you discuss
4 the -- what happened on the Markale market in Sarajevo on the
5 5th of February, 1994, usually referred to as Markale 1 in this
6 courtroom. You say the French television quoted a UN report on the
7 explosion and you said what a certain journalist, Mr. Walker, said about
8 that; namely, that the UNPROFOR report would have stated that the bomb
9 was fired from the Muslim positions. If there is any UNPROFOR report
10 which clearly states that, would you know -- have you seen that report?
11 A. No, I haven't.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Have you followed proceedings before this Tribunal
13 dealing with the incident at the Markale market in February 1994?
14 A. I did follow the proceedings and I talked about that in that
15 paragraph in an appropriate way. I wish to draw attention to the fact
16 that there are a lot of unknowns in relation to Markale.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I didn't ask you for your opinion on that.
18 The report you are referring to here, is that a report which you could
19 establish not to have been available to this Tribunal? Because if there
20 is any UNPROFOR report with a certain conclusion on the matter, the
21 Chamber would not want to miss it when evaluating all of the evidence.
22 Therefore, I asked you whether in following the proceedings whether you
23 gained the impression that the report you are talking about here, whether
24 that was not considered by this Tribunal in other cases?
25 A. Based on the information I had from the press, the UNPROFOR
1 withdrew that report already on the first day.
2 JUDGE ORIE: That was not my question. My question was whether
3 you think that, even if you withdraw a report, the report may still be
4 there, whether that report is available and whether it has been available
5 according to your knowledge. And of course if your answer is that it is
6 a report which was not available to this Tribunal, the Chamber would urge
7 the parties to get hold of it. Do you have any knowledge about that
8 report which would allow any conclusions as to whether it has been
9 available to this Tribunal?
10 A. I have to say that I don't know if there is such a report or not.
11 I guess there is UN documentation about it, but I don't know.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So your only source is that you heard
13 Mr. Walker talking about a report and stating what the content of that
14 report was without any further knowledge about that report and its
16 A. Exactly. Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for those answers.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: I have one question to ask.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: I thought that when you talked about the Pope you
21 gave the name of the Pope, am I right?
22 A. Pope John Paul, Pope Wojtyla.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Any further questions, Mr. McCloskey?
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Mr. President.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Have the questions by the Bench triggered any
2 further need for questions, Mr. Ivetic.
3 MR. IVETIC: I believe not.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Milutinovic, I would like to thank you
5 very much for coming to The Hague and for having answered all the
6 questions that were put to you, put to you by the Bench, put to you by
7 the parties - to start with by the parties - and I wish you a safe return
8 home again.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to thank you for
10 giving me the opportunity to state my positions and views here regarding
11 the events in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
12 JUDGE ORIE: We appreciated you stating facts that are to your
13 knowledge. You may follow the usher.
14 [The witness withdrew]
15 JUDGE ORIE: I am usually hesitant to go over the time so much,
16 but it's the last day before the -- it's the last day before the winter
18 Mr. Tieger, you asked for private session. And you -- I think
19 you talked about one minute, didn't you?
20 MR. TIEGER: I think that's right. I'll do my best.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's move into private session.
22 [Private session]
11 Page 30134 redacted. Private session.
13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
16 If you would just give me one second.
17 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Although I have quite a few matters still on the
19 agenda, they are not of such urgency that we should deal with them
20 necessarily before the recess, because we are at the point where we'll
21 take a recess of a few weeks.
22 The Chamber wishes everyone in this courtroom all the good wishes
23 for the holidays, and -- whether the holidays are in December or in
24 January, the best wishes are exactly the same also for the coming year.
25 And having said this, we adjourn and will resume Monday, the 19th of
1 January of 2015, 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, 1.
2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.33 p.m.,
3 to be reconvened on Monday, the 19th day
4 of January, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.