1 Monday, 19 January 2015
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.39 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Madam Registrar, would you, for the first time in 2015, call the
9 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
10 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
12 The Chamber was informed that there are two matters to be raised
13 by the Prosecution.
14 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.
16 MR. TIEGER: Good morning. I wanted to raise these two matters
17 as -- before these housekeeping matters started mounting up. They're
18 relatively simple.
19 The first one is simply that the B/C/S version of P3758 was
20 uploaded into e-court in the incorrect order, although the English
21 translation is in the correct chronological order. Accordingly, we have
22 re-uploaded the document under 65 ter 03078a, this time with the B/C/S
23 document in correct chronological order.
24 If the Defence are therefore in agreement, we would request that
25 65 ter number 03078a be assigned P3758.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Defence, any objections? No objections.
2 I take it that you would like to have 03078 be replaced by 03078a
3 in the B/C/S version.
4 MR. TIEGER: That's correct, Mr. President.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 MR. TIEGER: Thank you.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, you are hereby instructed to
8 replace the current B/C/S version of P3758 by the newly uploaded one,
9 which is 65 ter 03078a.
10 Mr. Tieger.
11 MR. TIEGER: And for the second matter, Mr. President, I think we
12 could deal with it more clearly and cleanly if we move into private
14 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
15 [Private session]
18 [Open session]
19 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
21 And although I have an agenda of 17 items still to be dealt with,
22 I'll deal with only one as -- of some urgency at this very moment. It's
23 about the scheduling of the remaining Defence case and the request for an
24 update on expert reports.
25 The Chamber has now heard approximately one-third of the
1 witnesses the Defence intends to call, according to its witness list of
2 the 19th of May of 2014. The Defence has also used less than one-third
3 of the time it was granted by the Chamber in the decision of the 12th of
4 May, 2014.
5 If the current pace is sustained, the Defence case will continue
6 into 2016. In order to assist the Chamber in making accurate
7 projections, the Defence is invited to advise the Chamber as soon as
8 possible whether it intends to drop any witnesses from its witness list,
9 even if that will be only a preliminary indication.
10 I can imagine, Mr. Lukic, that you have -- do not have an
11 immediate answer to that, but you certainly will have thought about it.
12 MR. LUKIC: You're absolutely right, Your Honour, on both.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. When could we hear from you to hear the result
14 of your thinking, especially on the second matter?
15 MR. LUKIC: I -- can we deal with that next week, so we have this
16 weekend to maybe go through the list.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Early -- beginning of next week.
18 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. You have got until after the weekend to -- to
20 further rethink what you have thought about already.
21 Now, some of the remaining Defence witnesses are expert
22 witnesses, and I -- meanwhile, I already invite the usher to escort the
23 next witness into the courtroom. But some of the remaining Defence
24 witnesses are expert witnesses.
25 As of today's date, the Defence has not filed any expert reports.
1 It's now becoming urgent to start the Rule 94 bis procedure for these
2 witnesses. On the 5th of June of last year, the Chamber instructed the
3 Defence to file monthly updates on the progress of expert reports. The
4 Chamber did not receive any reports in November and December, and the
5 Chamber therefore requests the Defence to review the situation with
6 regard to the expert reports and be ready to provide a detailed report in
7 court on the 26th of January, 2015.
8 I leave it to that for the time being.
9 The next witness the Defence calls is --
10 MR. LUKIC: Ms. Karlica.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 MR. LUKIC: And my colleague Stojanovic will lead this witness.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 [The witness entered court]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning. Good morning, Mrs. Karlica. Before
16 you give evidence, the Rules require that you make a solemn declaration.
17 The text is now handed out to you. May I invite you to make that solemn
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
20 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
21 WITNESS: ZDRAVKA KARLICA
22 [Witness answered through interpreter]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated.
24 Ms. Karlica, you'll first be examined by Mr. Stojanovic. You'll
25 find Mr. Stojanovic to your left behind the lectern. Mr. Stojanovic is
1 counsel for Mr. Mladic.
2 Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Good morning, Your
5 Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
6 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mrs. Karlica.
7 A. Good morning.
8 Q. I would like to ask you to tell us your exact name and surname.
9 Slowly, please.
10 A. Zdravka Karlica.
11 Q. Mrs. Karlica, at one point in time did you answer questions that
12 were put to you by the Defence of General Mladic and did you provide a
13 statement in writing?
14 A. Yes.
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please
16 have 65 ter 1D01672 in e-court.
17 Q. Madam, there is a screen before you and there is a text entitled:
18 "Witness Statement." Now, this is what I'm asking you: On this page of
19 this witness statement, can you recognise this signature of yours?
20 A. Yes.
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please take a look at
22 the last page of this document now.
23 Q. Madam, on this last page after the text entitled "Witness
24 Acknowledgement," can you recognise your own signature and the date that
25 we see on this page? Is it written in your own hand?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please take a look
4 at paragraph 1 of this statement.
5 Q. Mrs. Zdravka, while preparing for your testimony in court, as we
6 went through this statement of yours, did you indicate to me that it
7 would be more precise and better to have the penultimate sentence changed
8 in paragraph 1, the one that says: "I have been doing this job for 13
9 years." Should it say: "I have been doing this work for 13 years"?
10 Because you're not actually employed by this NGO.
11 A. That's right.
12 Q. In your view, would it be more precise, for the record, for this
13 sentence to read as follows: "I have been doing this work for 13 years"?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like us to take a
17 look at paragraph 6 of this statement.
18 Q. In the first paragraph in paragraph 6 in the last sentence,
19 during proofing, you also pointed out an imprecision to me. So instead
20 of the word "paternal uncle," it should say "maternal uncle," "stric,"
22 A. That's right.
23 Q. So, for the record, should this sentence read as follows:
24 "After the murder of Radenko Djapa, his maternal uncle retaliated
25 against the Muslims for his murder," et cetera?
1 A. That's right.
2 Q. Thank you. And now I would like to ask that we take a look at
3 paragraph 16 of your statement. In the last sentence, did you indicate
4 to me that a correction should be made? In the last line, we see the
5 last name Zgonjanin but should it say Skrbic?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. For the record, should this sentence read as follows then:
8 "My late husband was with one of his soldiers, Zeljko Zgonjanin,
9 and he was the first to see that someone had hurled a grenade from the
10 room next door at Zoran at him. Zoran just managed to say, 'watch out,
11 it's on bomb,' and he immediately through himself to the ground.
12 However, the grenade exploded between his legs and blew to pieces his
13 left thigh, and Skrbic sustained wounds to both legs."
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Thank you. Now that we've made these three corrections in your
16 statement, today in this courtroom, after you have taken solemn
17 declaration, would you give identical answers to questions put to you?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And would the statement stated in such precise terms contain
20 everything that you were asked about, to the best of your knowledge?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Zdravka.
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to
24 tender the statement of Witness Zdravka Karlica, 65 ter 1D01672.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections by the Prosecution?
1 MR. ZEC: Good morning. No objection.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Zec.
3 Madam Registrar, the number would be?
4 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D1672 receives number D863, Your
6 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is a good
8 opportunity for me to tender associate exhibits 65 ter numbers 1D02850 -
9 I'm actually tendering three documents - then 1D03511, and 1D16510.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The last one is a 65 ter number without 1D,
11 Mr. Stojanovic.
12 JUDGE ORIE: That's at least how it was announced in Annex B to
13 the motion.
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's right, that's right.
15 That's right, Your Honour. 65 ter 16510. Thank you.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Zec, objections against any of the three?
17 MR. ZEC: No, Mr. President.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, 1D02850 would receive number?
19 THE REGISTRAR: Number D864, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
21 1D3511 would receive number?
22 THE REGISTRAR: Number D865, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
24 And 65 ter 16510 would receive?
25 THE REGISTRAR: Number D866, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 With your leave, Your Honours, I would like to read a short
4 summary of Witness Zdravka Karlica's statement.
5 Zdravka Karlica is the president of the organisation of the
6 families of POWs and fallen soldiers and missing civilians of Prijedor
7 municipality. She has been doing this work for 13 years now. When the
8 war started, she was in Prijedor where she lived with her family.
9 Immediately after the war broke out in the territory of the
10 former Yugoslavia, her late husband was mobilised and deployed in Croatia
11 as a reserve officer and a member of the JNA. On the 3rd of January
12 1992, he was wounded and hospitalised in Prijedor where he was when the
13 war started in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
14 He was then mobilised and asked to report to the Zarko Zgonjanin
15 Barracks. He was then assigned to the JNA units which were deployed in
16 Prijedor. From conversations with her husband, she learnt about a lot of
17 events and incidents that had preceded the breakout of war in Prijedor
18 municipality. She says that the first incident in Prijedor was the
19 murder of the policeman Radenko Djapa who was killed by Muslim
21 That incident caused a lot of unrest among the general public and
22 population in Prijedor. Her late husband participated in the
23 negotiations in Kozarac in the attempt to resolve the crisis in a
24 nonviolent manner. He told her that the problem with the negotiations
25 was how to disarm paramilitaries that existed in Kozarac. The moderate
1 SDA stream agreed for those units to be disarmed and that postponed a
2 conflict. However, the other elements, extreme elements, did not accept
3 that agreement and, as a result, there was an attack on the military
4 vehicles' column that was moving from the direction of Kozarac.
5 The witness also speaks about the incident which happened on the
6 22nd of May, 1992 in the village of Hambarine. Her late husband
7 participated in those events, and he also participated in the
8 negotiations with the representative of the Muslim side, Aziz Aliskovic.
9 They discussed the takeover of the dead bodies of VRS members.
10 Finally, the negotiations came to fruition after a couple of
11 hours. The witness also speaks about what she knows of the attack on the
12 central part of town of Prijedor during the night between the 29th and
13 the 30th of May, 1992, and she also speaks about the objectives of that
14 attacked launched by paramilitary formations. Her husband and some of
15 his fellow combatants were wounded during that attack. Due to the
16 severity of his wounds, he was first treated in Banja Luka and then he
17 was transferred to Belgrade where he succumbed to his wounds on the
18 6th of June, 1992.
19 The witness also shares her immediate knowledge about the
20 departure of the non-Serbian population from Prijedor. She also says
21 that a large number of Muslims left the municipality even before the war.
22 And, finally, she says that in her late husband's units there
23 were members of all nationalities, some of whom were his closest
25 Thank you, Your Honours. This is a short summary of the
1 witness's statement, and with your leave, I would like to put a couple of
2 questions to the witness in order to clarify some matters.
3 JUDGE ORIE: You may do so, Mr. Stojanovic. You said it was a
4 short summary. I would say it was a summary. And one of my good
5 intentions was not to intervene before it turned out to be necessary.
6 Perhaps, what was on my mind, I should have reminded you that summaries
7 should be short summaries.
8 Please proceed.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm interested in paragraph 17
10 of the witness's statement, which is now D863.
11 Q. Mrs. Zdravka, in paragraph 17, you pointed out in your statement
12 that you knew what the objectives of Slavko Ecimovic's group had been
13 when they launched the attack on the 29th and the 30th of May, 1992. You
14 mentioned those objectives. How do you know that? Where does your
15 information come from?
16 A. On the 30th of May, my husband was wounded, which means that
17 people from that unit came and told me that the attack had been launched
18 from various directions. He was wounded close to the hotel. Allegedly,
19 that group was supposed to reach Radio Prijedor. That was the main
20 objective. And then the others would have become involved in the
21 fighting around Prijedor. In other words, I heard that from the people
22 who came to our house.
23 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 18 of your statement, you say that the
24 villagers of Cela and Puharska were not bothered and that they remained
25 living in their villages throughout the war. Please tell the Court
1 whether you learned at any point in time that on the eve of the
2 Dayton Accords the villagers of those villages abandoned their homes?
3 A. I must say that before 1995, i.e., after Operation Storm, they
4 abandoned their homes because people arrived from Croatia and looked for
5 their new homes. It was only then when they left the villages of Cela
6 and Puharska; but since then a lot of them have returned, as far as I
8 Q. Thank you. And now I would like to draw your attention to
9 paragraph 8 in your statement.
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to
11 move into private session for the next question that I would like to put
12 to the witness.
13 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
14 [Private session]
11 Page 30150 redacted. Private session.
23 [Open session]
24 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Mrs. Karlica, thank you very much for your answers on behalf of
3 General Mladic's Defence. At this point, we have no further questions
4 for you.
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.
7 Before I would invite the Prosecution to start its
8 cross-examination, I would have one question about a paragraph which was
9 specifically addressed by Mr. Stojanovic.
10 In paragraph 18 of your statement, Witness, you said that no one
11 bothered the non-Serbian villages that had not attacked the Serbian
12 forces, and that none of their inhabitants -- that were touched upon and
13 that they remained in their villages throughout the war, and you
14 mentioned two villages.
15 Now, could you tell us what happened with the mothers and the
16 children and the elderly in those villages that had attacked the Serbian
17 forces? I'm not talking about men being involved in the attacks, but I'm
18 talking about their families. Were they -- did anyone touch upon any of
19 those inhabitants - again - of the villages that did attack the Serb
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I must admit that I didn't know
22 much about that. There was a meeting in Sehovac near Sanski Most
23 attended by Serbs and Bosniaks from Prijedor. That was the first time I
24 heard that a lot of women and children had been killed around Prijedor.
25 JUDGE ORIE: When did that meeting take place?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps six or seven years ago.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, what did you mean when you said that you
3 learned that women and children were killed? Were they intentionally
4 killed, were they murdered, or were they victims of the war operations?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, it was a shocking
6 piece of information for me. I heard that 256 women and 10 girls had
7 been killed during the war. That's what I heard on that occasion. On
8 returning from that meeting, together with my colleague who had also
9 attended the meeting, I went to that cemetery to see where so many people
10 had --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, that's not an answer to my question. My
12 question is whether did you learn that they were killed, murdered, or
13 that they were victims of the war operations? If you shell a certain
14 area, it can be that a woman or a child is hit by that. You can also
15 just murder children and women.
16 What did you learn at that meeting that had happened?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that meeting, I found out the
18 number of the victims involved. However, last year in January we had a
19 meeting of the Helsinki Committee, and I found out about the killings in
20 the village of Zecovi where women and children were killed. The son of
21 one of these women spoke about this. Actually, he came from a family
22 where the mother and her daughters - his sisters, that is - had been
24 JUDGE ORIE: You mean murdered.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, those who were not murdered in those
2 villages that had attacked the Serb forces, those women, children, and
3 elderly, who again were not killed, could they remain in those villages?
4 Did they continue to live there?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really cannot give you an answer
6 to that question as I really don't know.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Did you ever hear anything about children and women
8 being taken from their villages and held in a situation in which they
9 were not entirely free to move around?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did hear about that.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, when I -- you talked about the killing,
12 you spontaneously answered by saying what you heard. Here you say, "I
13 can't say anything about it," although you heard about it as well. What
14 did you hear?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I heard about camps, if
16 that's what we mean. Of course I heard about that. I heard about
17 Omarska, Trnopolje, Keraterm. I heard about all of that.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
19 Mr. Zec, are you ready to start your cross-examination?
20 MR. ZEC: Yes, Mr. President.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Zec.
22 You'll find him to your right. And Mr. Zec is counsel for the
24 Please proceed.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before you do so, can I ask a follow-up question
1 on the questions by the Presiding Judge.
2 Madam, you talked about women and children being murdered in the
3 village of Zecovi. Can you tell us by whom were these people murdered?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I see now that people are
5 being arrested, people who had been killing these women and children in
6 the village of Zecovi. As far as I know, already 16 of them were brought
7 in; that is to say, Serbs.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: 16 of them were Serbs?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you know how many have been brought of whom the
11 16 form a part?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know. Maybe -- I
13 don't know the exact number, no. I know that quite a few Serbs were held
14 accountable and were sentenced to many years in prison. Now, these
15 arrests only have to do with the village of Zecovi as far as I know.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Were these Serbs part of any army at the time when
17 they killed, according to the allegations?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know exactly now that
19 they belonged to an army. I know about two men that I know personally.
20 I heard that they had been arrested, that they were on the reserve police
21 force. As for the others, I really don't know.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: The reserve police force of which army, of which
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Reserve policemen of the Serb
25 authorities. The reserve police, the Serb reserve police.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
2 Mr. Zec.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. -- yes, but, Mr. Zec, to start cross-examination
4 for three minutes might not be the wisest thing to do. Perhaps we take
5 an early break, and we'd -- one second, please.
6 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
7 JUDGE ORIE: We'll not start your cross-examination before the
8 break. We'd like to see you back in approximately 25 minutes from now.
9 You may follow the usher.
10 Meanwhile, I use the time until 10.30 for a short agenda item.
11 [The witness stands down]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Which is the following. It's about 92 ter motions
13 for four witnesses: Bosiljka Mladic, Radovan Popovic, Biljana Stojkovic,
14 and Zarko Stojkovic.
15 On the 19th of December of last year, the Defence filed 92 ter
16 motions for witnesses Bosiljka Mladic, Radovan Popovic,
17 Biljana Stojkovic, and Zarko Stojkovic. The Prosecution does not oppose
18 the motions. The Chamber has reviewed the motions and observes that
19 there's a considerable amount of overlap between the witnesses' proposed
20 evidence and the parties' joint submissions on agreed facts dated the 4th
21 of June, 2013.
22 In particular, these witnesses' testimonies relate directly to
23 the chronology of the accused's whereabouts between the 14th and the 17th
24 of July, 1995.
25 Could the Defence please indicate why it is necessary to present
1 evidence in relation to facts that have already been agreed between the
3 Mr. Lukic.
4 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. First of all, there was a
5 disagreement in between the parties about the moment of return of
6 General Mladic to Republika Srpska. We have a disagreement on this
7 issue. And also the Prosecution, through the Witness Lesic and his video
8 recording, actually, is trying to present that General Mladic was able to
9 command over the forces, although being outside the area of his
10 responsibility and outside of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and we think it's
11 crucial for us to prove that he did not have any means of communication
12 by which he was or would be able to command his forces. And it is
13 crucial for us to prove that on the 16th of July he was not in the area
14 of Republika Srpska.
15 So if we can agree on those two issues with the Prosecution, we
16 would certainly not bring these witnesses to testify.
17 JUDGE ORIE: If I do understand you well, there are three items
18 which are in dispute. The first is technical possibilities for
19 communication where Mr. Mladic was in Belgrade.
20 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: That's one.
22 Second, the exact time of his return.
23 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: And the third one, his whereabouts on the 16th of
1 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. We'll -- having this in mind, we'll re-read
3 the statement and we'll see whether the statement focuses on that or
4 whether it's more, because the presentation of evidence, and we'll also
5 of course look at what the Prosecution witnesses said about it, the
6 presentation of evidence should be focused on matters that are in
7 dispute. But at least it's clear now which three points specifically
8 caused you to introduce these 92 ter witness statements.
9 We'll take a break and we'll resume at 10 minutes to 11.00.
10 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.
11 --- On resuming at 10.54 a.m.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Earlier this morning, we discussed P3758. I said
13 that the B/C/S version should be replaced by the newly uploaded B/C/S
14 version. Now, the newly uploaded version is a complete version; that is,
15 both B/C/S, which is now -- in the version is put in the correct order.
16 But it also contains the English version, which is unchanged.
17 So, therefore, when I said that the B/C/S version should be
18 replaced, I was not entirely accurate because the whole of the document
19 is to be replaced, although the English version did not undergo any
21 I briefly deal with number -- the -- an item about the testimony
22 of Radovan Glogovac.
23 On the 4th of September of last year, Exhibit P6723 was marked
24 for identification due to its length, and that can be found at transcript
25 pages 25304. The Chamber was informed via an e-mail on the 17th of
1 December by the Prosecution that an excerpt of the document has been
2 uploaded into e-court under Rule 65 ter number 19313a.
3 [The witness takes the stand]
4 JUDGE ORIE: Are there any objections against the short version
5 now uploaded to be admitted?
6 Mr. Lukic is nodding that there is no objection. The Chamber
7 hereby admits the excerpt uploaded under Rule 65 ter number 19313a as
8 Exhibit P6723, and Madam Registrar is instructed to replace the current
9 document in e-court with the excerpt bearing Rule 65 ter 19313a.
10 Mr. Zec, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?
11 MR. ZEC: Yes, Mr. President.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
13 Witness, I already told you that you would be cross-examined by
14 Mr. Zec. You find him to your right.
15 Mr. Zec, please proceed.
16 MR. ZEC: Thank you.
17 Cross-examination by Mr. Zec:
18 Q. And good morning, Ms. Karlica.
19 A. Good morning.
20 Q. Just before the break, you were talking about what you learned
21 during a conference about the killings in Zecovi. Can you just confirm
22 for the clarity of the record that Zecovi is a village in Bircani area,
23 which is part of Brdo, near Prijedor.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And in answering the question of His Honour, Judge Moloto, you
1 referred to two men that you knew personally that were arrested in regard
2 to this murder. Can you tell us the names of these two people?
3 A. Radomir Stojanic and his son Zoran.
4 Q. And these people that were arrested, that happened just last
5 year; correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now with respect to your statement, you told us that you work as
8 the president of the organisation for the families of captured and fallen
9 soldiers and missing civilians of Prijedor. I will have just two quick
10 questions about this.
11 First, this organisation was part -- is part of the republican
12 organisation for the families of captured and fallen soldiers and missing
13 civilians of Republika Srpska; correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Now without going into any detail about the work or the policy of
16 the organisation, can you confirm that its main focus is tracking missing
17 soldiers of the VRS and Serb civilians of Republika Srpska?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. In your statement you talk about your late husband,
20 Zdravko Karlica, and his combat activities. Your late husband,
21 Ms. Karlica, he was honoured by the Serb -- by the RS authorities for his
22 service and accomplishments as a loyal VRS soldier, yes?
23 A. Just a brief observation, he's Zoran, not Zdravko.
24 Q. My apologies. That's my mistake. Can you confirm -- yes.
25 A. You spoke about this to Croatian -- yes, yes. He was the
1 recipient of a decoration. And, that is to say, after his death.
2 Q. The RS authorities have honoured your late husband for his war
3 efforts by naming a square in Prijedor after him; correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You say in your statement that your late husband was a member of
6 the Prijedor Motorised Brigade as of September 1991 when he went to
7 Croatia. In paragraph 3 you say, and I will quote:
8 "My late husband told me that his task in Western Slavonia was to
9 defend the Serbian people and of course our houses."
10 So your late husband's position was that the Prijedor Motorised
11 Brigade went to Croatia to protect the Serbian population in its
12 entirety; that is, both those in Croatia and in Bosnia, yes?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. In paragraph 6, you say that Serbs in Prijedor started talking
15 about the genocide committed against the Serbs during the Second World
16 War, and in fact the public perception as communicated through the media
17 was that the Serbian population was endangered by others and that the
18 events of the Second World War were about to repeat; right?
19 A. Well, that's what people were saying.
20 Q. During the war, the Prijedor Motorised Brigade was praised in the
21 media in Republika Srpska for its role in helping Serbs in Croatia for
22 liberating Prijedor and saving the Serbian population; correct?
23 A. Well, I didn't quite understand what you were saying, actually.
24 They were members of the Yugoslav Peoples' Army, and you know the date up
25 until which that was the case.
1 Q. And this Chamber has received evidence about transformation from
2 JNA to VRS, but my question was simpler than that. It's more about
3 praising the war efforts of this brigade in Croatia and Bosnia. So their
4 war efforts, they were praised in the media in Republika Srpska during
5 the war; correct?
6 A. That's right.
7 Q. And the RS authorities considered the liberation of Prijedor as
8 important military victory; correct?
9 A. Well, certainly, yes. I mean ...
10 Q. I'll show you now a video-clip which was played on the Serbian
11 television in 1994 which talks about a warpath and successes of the
12 Prijedor Motorised Brigade. It may be that you have seen this video
13 before, but I want to tell you that this video refers to your late
14 husband, among other things. So I want you to know what is coming up in
15 the video before it is being played. Is that okay for you?
16 A. All right.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Zec, any text spoken? Do we have to play it
19 MR. ZEC: Mr. President, there is text spoken and we have asked
20 CLSS to check the accuracy of the translation, which they kindly did. So
21 I suggest that we play only once.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take it the accuracy of the transcription,
23 that's in the original, and then we have to play it only once.
24 Please proceed.
25 MR. ZEC: For the record, the video is 65 ter 22733a.
1 [Video-clip played]
2 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] In fact, that was the best Serbian
3 brigade in the period between the last two Saint Vitus's Days. This is
4 the reason why the president of the republic, Dr. Radovan Karadzic,
5 decorated the Prijedor men with the highest award of the state - the
6 Nemanjic Order. The brigade was established on the 16th of September,
7 1991 by the order on mobilisation of what was then the 5th Banja Luka
8 Corps of the Yugoslav Peoples' Army, and it became the 343rd Motorised
9 Brigade of the Yugoslav Army. Within only two days, the brigade command
10 managed to carry out the mobilisation and head out, with just 42 per cent
11 of the necessary manpower and without any reinforcements to carry out a
12 combat task on the main axis of the then-5th Banja Luka Corps. This axis
13 was: Strug-Okucani-Lipik-Pakrac.
14 "At that time, it was the Muslims or, rather, the Party of
15 Democratic Action who held power in Prijedor. Their leadership did
16 everything possible to prevent mobilisation, and especially to prevent
17 the brigade from going to the front line and assisting the endangered
18 Serbian people of Western Slavonia. They did so publicly, using threats,
19 openly advocating secession and the creation of the Muslim Jamahiriya in
20 the entire territory of the former Bosnia-Herzegovina. The warpath of
21 the 43rd Motorised Brigade, better known and famous under the name of
22 Prijedor Brigade, is not easy to describe because this brigade is
23 special, unique and great in many ways, and it will certainly go down in
24 Serbian war history as the brigade which won the swiftest, greatest, and
25 most important victory in this battle - the battle for Prijedor. This
1 battle and victory determined not only the fate of this town, but also
2 the fate of the entire Serb people in Potkozarje and Krajina.
3 "Potkozarje was and will remain a chapter that stands out;
4 because it must not be forgotten that it was along this part of the
5 centuries-old Serbian border - in this area populated by the best, the
6 most honourable Serbs who ever lived and fought - that the mission to
7 wipe out Serbdom had nearly been accomplished during and especially after
8 the Second World War. Few and far between were any places where the wail
9 of the muezzin would be answered by a chime from the belfry; few and far
10 between were spots where incense still burned under the icon lamp. The
11 Serb people of Potkozarje had been driven to their wits' end. They were
12 at the end of their tether, at the mercy of reformists of all hues,
13 peace-keepers, and newfangled democrats. Although at their wit's end,
14 the Serbs were wary. At the eleventh hour, memories awakened of their
15 bitter experience from the time of their great ordeal - the time of
16 death, slaughter, genocide and extermination - but also the resolve not
17 to let history repeat itself; the resolve to prevent a new massacre and
18 another struggle for survival, at the price of seeing victory replaced by
19 defeat, former executioners taking place of victims, the faith of their
20 forefathers ceding to the nightmarish ideology of uniform thinking
21 devised by Broz.
22 "This is why on the 16th of September, Vladimir Arsic and his
23 deputy, Radmilo Zeljaja, the commander and the Chief of Staff of the
24 43rd Motorised Brigade, respectively, took their units down a long road
25 of trial and tribulation, uncertainty, tempering by fire and great
1 victories. The first and perhaps the most triumphant" --
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Is this still going on? I have
3 nothing now.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We are continuing with the
5 translation of the video.
6 "At first and perhaps the most triumphant decisive victory of
7 this brigade and the men of Kozara was precisely that battle in Western
8 Slavonia. This was a time when its scout company, later name
9 Zoran Karlica, after its celebrated commander, bore the brunt of the
10 fighting in defence of its people and this part of the front line. With
11 his young men, he seemed to be everywhere at once, closing gaps opened up
12 after some parts of the units had pulled out. Very often, the scouts
13 took on the enemy head-on, inflicting losses and sowing panic in their
15 MR. ZEC:
16 Q. Ms. Karlica, apologies for the delay. We were receiving
17 translation what you --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Wait. Yes. We were still waiting for the French
19 translation to be finished.
20 Please proceed.
21 MR. ZEC: Thank you, Mr. President.
22 Q. We heard here, Ms. Karlica, among other things, that
23 President Radovan Karadzic decorated the Prijedor Brigade with the
24 highest award for their war efforts, including the most important victory
25 of the war, the battle for Prijedor. So this reflects the importance of
1 the victory and taking control over Prijedor to the RS leadership;
3 A. I have to say, if I may that is, that in the 43rd Brigade there
4 were a lot of non-Serb soldiers, and I'm sure that the decoration was
5 bestowed in the way described in the video.
6 Q. And for the sake of better understanding of the video, I'll
7 just -- I'll quickly ask you couple of quick questions.
8 While the video was played, we saw the logo SRT. Can you confirm
9 that this was the logo of the Serbian Radio Television which was the
10 public media service of Republika Srpska; correct?
11 A. I was in two minds whether it was Serbia or Republika Srpska. It
12 was a bit blurred.
13 Q. Would you like to see again quickly to be -- to check or ...
14 MR. ZEC: Stop here.
15 Q. So if you see the --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Zec, is the issue you're raising whether this
17 was Serb-oriented broadcasting?
18 MR. ZEC: And to make clear that this was the public media
19 service of Republika Srpska, and in that regard we have also a decision
20 forming this media service by Republika Srpska Assembly we can offer if
21 the Chamber would like to have that.
22 JUDGE ORIE: But -- yes, but apparently you want to emphasize
23 that it's not neutral?
24 MR. ZEC: Correct.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, whether it's Serb or Republika Srpska,
1 in both cases you would say that it's at least -- but I'll let you go, if
2 you would think it's -- it's really important for us to know that it was
3 Republika Srpska television, then ...
4 Also a matter, have you sought the agreement of the Defence on
5 that matter?
6 MR. ZEC: No, Mr. President. But perhaps we can talk or if they
7 have position now, I can move on.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, any challenge to this being a
9 Republika Srpska public broadcasting?
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I believe that that was indeed
11 the case and that the symbol denotes the first year of work of the
12 television of Republika Srpska.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, well, what you believe is not relevant for us.
14 It is what you stipulate and agree upon is. You agree that it's Serb
15 public -- Republika Srpska public broadcast?
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
18 MR. ZEC: Thank you, Mr. President, thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.
19 Now going back to the video, and if we can have transcripts on
20 the screen. 65 ter 22733a.
21 Q. And very quick two questions, Ms. Karlica. If you look towards
22 the end of the page in your language, you will see that there is a
23 reference to the battle for Prijedor. And if you look that part towards
24 the end of the page, a few lines, you will see there it says, and I will
25 quote, if it's easier for you:
1 "Few and far between were any places where the wail of muezzins
2 would be answered by the chime from the belfry; few and far between were
3 spots where incense still burned under the icon lamp."
4 So it may be clear, but in your understanding does this mean, as
5 it is presented here, that the non-Serb religious sites dominated over
6 the Serb or Orthodox religious sites and its tradition; correct?
7 A. As far as I understand it, I am sure that there were more
8 non-Serb religious facilities than those belonging to the Serbs, and I'm
9 talking about a period preceding the war.
10 Q. And if you look back at the transcript, starting from the place
11 where we stopped.
12 MR. ZEC: And we will need in B/C/S next page.
13 Q. Looking over the first several lines --
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Then we have to go to the next page in English,
16 MR. ZEC: That's correct. In B/C/S, we need previous page and
17 next page in English; correct. Thank you very much.
18 If we can in B/C/S -- if we can have page 1. Thank you.
19 Q. You will see there is a reference, and I'll quote for you -- for
20 your benefit. It just says:
21 "... the nightmarish ideology of uniform thinking devised by
23 So can you just confirm that this reference is -- refers to the
24 time of Yugoslavia and the rule of socialism under Josip Broz Tito;
1 A. It seems that I don't have the same text as you do. I can't find
2 it. I'm not reading the same thing.
3 MR. ZEC: In B/C/S second page. My apologies.
4 Q. So first several lines you will see where it refers to the
5 nightmarish ideology of the uniform thinking devised by Broz. So the
6 question is simple: Do you agree that this is the reference to the
7 socialism time of Yugoslavia and Josip Broz Tito?
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection. The witness is asked
9 to interpret somebody's words, the words that were not uttered by her,
10 the words that she has nothing to do with.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, is there any dispute as this is to
12 be a reference to the -- to the socialism time of Yugoslavia? I mean ...
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] First of all, Your Honours, as
14 I'm reading this text, I can see that this has been taken from the
15 context. That sentence has been misquoted by the Prosecutor, because
16 that sentence actually reads:
17 "The faith of our forefathers in what was construed to be Tito's
18 ideology ..."
19 But this is a free interpretation, so I am not in agreement what
20 the Prosecutor is trying to imply here.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, is there an interpretation issue?
22 Then we should focus on the interpretation. Are you saying that it has
23 to be verified, the interpretation? Is it not accurate?
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, this is not what I'm
25 claiming, Your Honours. I'm saying and I'm reading the text in B/C/S.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Now the text you read and the text which was
2 quoted by Mr. Zec -- just --
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that. I don't have
5 JUDGE ORIE: Don't worry for a moment, Witness.
6 Is that a reference to the -- a reference to the socialist time
7 in which Tito was in power?
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, I cannot see that, Your
9 Honours. And this, bearing in mind page 33, lines 2 and 3, on our
10 today's record and the text of the question is precisely what we are
11 talking about.
12 MR. ZEC: For the benefit of Mr. Stojanovic, if he reads line 6,
13 there is a reference to Broz, and I'm referring to B/C/S line 6. There
14 is a reference to Broz, and I think it's going to be clear then.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Zec, the part you read in English is the last
16 sentence of the first half of the page, isn't it, what we have on our
17 screen now?
18 MR. ZEC: That's correct.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Where do we see that in -- let me just have a look.
20 MR. ZEC: In B/C/S, it's line 6 and Broz has a small capital.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, yes.
22 MR. ZEC: So that's maybe confusing, because of the construction
23 of that sentence.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now you literally quote, because there
25 apparently is no translation issue as far as Mr. Stojanovic is concerned,
1 you literally quote, to start with, what you wanted to put to the witness
2 and don't ask a question yet.
3 Could you please quote exactly what you wanted to refer to.
4 MR. ZEC: Simply the line where it refers to the --
5 JUDGE ORIE: No, I asked you to read that line.
6 MR. ZEC: "... nightmarish ideology of uniform thinking devised
7 by Broz."
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you're the issue was whether this is a
9 reference to the socialist time -- and, no, it was the --
10 MR. ZEC: Under Josip Broz Tito; correct.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 Any dispute about that, Mr. Stojanovic? A reference to an
13 ideology developed or -- by Tito, wouldn't that be a reference to the
14 time when he was in power? Or is there any other explanation you think
15 is appropriate in this context?
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Tito's ideology
17 does not go just back to the period of socialism. It goes back to the
18 1930s when Tito became the leader of the Communist Party, from the fourth
19 congress of the communist party that is. The question therefore is of an
20 academic nature.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Well, first of all, it didn't change when he was in
22 power after the 1930s, did it, in your view -- in the Defence's view? He
23 didn't give up on that ideology later when he was in power, in the
24 Defence's opinion?
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I don't think so. Although,
1 after 1948 his policies evolved and took a different turn after the
2 conflict with informbiro.
3 JUDGE ORIE: It seems it takes a course which is not for a
4 witness to further interpret. We all know that there was a time, and
5 that apparently is the -- we know when Tito was in power, at least the
6 parties could agree on that, and that apparently this is a reference to
7 his ideology. So I don't need -- see why we need the witness to further
8 interpret this text.
9 MR. ZEC: I agree, Mr. President.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
11 MR. ZEC: And we can move on.
12 And I'll just tender this video and the Chamber will have an
13 opportunity to review it on its own.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the video which is now, I see, a
15 DVD is given to the Registry. The number would be, Madam Registrar?
16 THE REGISTRAR: Document 22733a receives number P7028, Your
18 JUDGE ORIE: In the absence of any objections, admitted into
20 Mr. Zec.
21 MR. ZEC: Thank you, Mr. President.
22 Q. Ms. Karlica, we just heard the position of the Serb authorities
23 regarding the importance of the victory in Prijedor. And in fact, after
24 the take-over by Serb authorities, many of the street names and names of
25 the schools in Prijedor were changed from non-Serb names and the names of
1 communists to Serb names; correct?
2 A. I know that that was the case. Some schools did change their
3 names, and some streets did as well, except for the square and a couple
4 streets that were named after the figures from the previous war.
5 Q. An example of that is the square in the city centre which it was
6 called Lenin square, it was renamed to the name of your late husband.
7 The street where you lived was called Marsala Tita Street was renamed to
8 Kralja Petra I Oslobodioca Street; correct?
9 A. The name of the street is the street of King Peter the 1st, the
10 liberator, if that's the street you had in mind. In the centre of the
11 city; right?
12 Q. Correct. And I'll show you quickly one document.
13 MR. ZEC: It's 65 ter 31650.
14 Q. And this is a list of old and the new names of the streets and
15 schools in Prijedor.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any dispute about massive changing of the
17 names of streets? We've seen that in Serb and in non-Serb territories as
18 well. Is there any dispute about it?
19 MR. ZEC: If the Defence has no dispute, I think I can move on.
20 JUDGE ORIE: And apart from what the relevance is. I mean, I do
21 see that after a war that often peoples are inclined to rename and to get
22 rid of what they consider a past which they would like not to be reminded
23 of and then change that. And why do we have to go through all of these
24 details? I mean, we have seen already so much dubious -- evidence of
25 dubious relevance in the statement itself, and now to have in
1 cross-examination even more of that is not something that the Chamber
2 would encourage.
3 You have not sought even the agreement of the Defence in that.
4 Is there any agreement that changes -- or massively changed,
5 Mr. Stojanovic, the names of the streets?
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I agree with this, Your Honours.
7 A lot of the street names were indeed changed.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Let's proceed, Mr. Zec.
9 MR. ZEC: Thank you, Mr. President.
10 Q. Ms. Karlica, in your statement in paragraph 18 you gave an
11 example of Puharska and Cela as an example that no one bothered non-Serbs
12 and nobody touched any of the inhabitants. So basically, are you saying
13 that there is no -- there was no instances of attacks, intimidations,
14 killings, in these areas? And I'm referring to Puharska now for the
15 example that you gave. Yes?
16 A. That's what I heard. Those villages were calm. There were no
17 attacks. At least according to what I heard. If things happened
18 differently, then I've been misinformed.
19 Q. The mosque in Donja --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Before we do that, who told you about Puharska,
21 about what happened there?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Drasko Vujic who was a witness here
23 as well. He was there and he said that nothing was going on there. He
24 was one of the commanders.
25 JUDGE ORIE: When did he tell you?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know. It was a long
2 time ago, perhaps ten years or so. That's when he spoke about that.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Please proceed, Mr. Zec.
4 MR. ZEC:
5 Q. The mosque in Donja Puharska was destroyed in summer 1992. In
6 the explosion, several non-Serbs were killed and injured in their homes;
8 A. I know that happened. My sister lives nearby. I know that the
9 house was damaged. I don't know that anybody was killed. I don't know
10 or I don't remember.
11 Q. During the course of the same evening when the mosque was
12 destroyed, the Prijedor Catholic church was destroyed; correct?
13 A. Correct.
14 MR. ZEC: Can we have 65 ter 31821. And this is an investigative
15 file regarding the destruction of the mosque in Donja Puharska. It
16 contains the statement of Rasim Dzafic and several photographs of the
17 mosque destroyed in 1992.
18 Can we have e-court page 3 for the B/C/S and page 4 for the
20 Q. If you look at the last two paragraphs in your language,
21 Ms. Karlica --
22 MR. ZEC: And in the English it's the first part of the page.
23 Q. -- Dzafic said that he was injured in the explosion, that the
24 Kusturan family members were killed while their son, Osman, was injured.
25 MR. ZEC: Can we now turn to the next page in the B/C/S and then
1 in the English as well.
2 Q. Looking at the second-last paragraph in the statement, it says
3 that the course of the same evening the Catholic church was destroyed.
4 And I'll just quickly show you the photographs that are in this file.
5 MR. ZEC: So if we can both --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if the witness could tell us anything about
7 it, then we would like to hear. But just to inform the witness about
8 what was reported at the time, if she says she has no knowledge about it,
9 it doesn't make any sense --
10 Witness, it's now put to you that the Puharska population was not
11 untouched, that the mosque was destroyed, and this caused victims. Do
12 you have any knowledge about that?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Puharska is a rather wide area.
14 When I said that it was calm there, I had in mind the area behind the
15 Zarko Zgonjanin Barracks. As for Donja Puharska, where the mosque was
16 demolished and some 400 or 500 metres away was that church, I heard about
17 those incidents. Actually, those were very powerful explosions that we
18 all heard. At that time I resided in Urije and I heard the explosion.
19 When I spoke about Puharska, I had in mind the part of the Puharska
20 behind the barracks. Not Donja Puharska.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Now, would you agree that if a mosque was
22 blown up in Puharska, Donja Puharska, that that would have touched upon
23 the non-Serb population of that village?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was Serb and non-Serb
25 population there. The mosque was close to the city. It's not a village.
1 It's actually a suburb of Prijedor.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I didn't talk about ethnicity. I was just talking
3 about whether it touched upon the population irrespective of their
4 ethnicity. Would you agree with that?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course. We were all upset that
6 a thing like that had happened.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Well, that's not expressed in your statement, but I
8 do understand that that's limited to a very small area which is not the
9 whole of the Puharska area.
10 Please proceed, Mr. Zec.
11 MR. ZEC:
12 Q. Did you know that people of Puharska were taken and killed; an
13 example, Fadil Dizdarevic who was taken and shot. Did you know about
14 that example?
15 A. Could you please repeat the family name.
16 Q. I gave the example Fadil Dizdarevic. He was taken and shot?
17 A. I really don't know.
18 Q. If you look at the statement in front of you in B/C/S page 3,
19 English page 4, e-court page 4 in English -- and then we --
20 A. It's page 2 on my screen.
21 MR. ZEC: In B/C/S, next page. B/C/S -- next page in B/C/S,
23 Q. So if you look at around the middle of the first paragraph, and
24 it's -- it says:
25 "Several days later, our neighbour, Fadil Dizdarevic, came to
1 repair hodza's house. Djordje Dosen, also known as Djo [phoen], found
2 him there. He took him to the car and drove off. A day or two later,
3 Fadil's body was found in the Sana River. His chest was riddled with
5 So this is an example of what was happening to people, non-Serb
6 population of Puharska; correct?
7 A. I am really not in a position to know that. You know that my
8 husband succumbed to his wound on the 6th of June. I don't know when
9 this happened, though. For a year, there was not a single day that I
10 didn't go to the cemetery to visit my husband's grave. How was I
11 supposed to know this? If I'd been in the neighbourhood, perhaps I would
12 have known. But really I don't know.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, the reason why Mr. Zec is asking you is
14 because you give in your statement a comment on what happened in Cela and
15 Puharska, whereas you said you heard that some ten years ago. Now, what
16 Mr. Zec is doing is asking you some details which he finds in documents,
17 and I do understand that your answer is that you had no personal
18 knowledge about many events which may have taken place in that area.
19 That's the issue Mr. Zec is raising and he has done so.
20 Please proceed, Mr. Zec.
21 MR. ZEC: Mr. President, I would tender this file with
22 photographs. If you would like me to go with witness through the
23 photograph, if she recognise, if it's helpful for the Chamber, we can do
25 JUDGE ORIE: Is there --
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE ORIE: There is no need to have the witness identify the --
3 if there is any serious concerns about these photographs depicting
4 something which is not depicting what it is said to depict, then we would
5 like to hear from the Defence without any delay.
6 [Defence counsel confer]
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] We shall object to have this
8 admitted into evidence, particularly because it is complex. It consists
9 of a statement by a witness and a few photographs for the area of
10 Donja Puharska as is written here.
11 JUDGE ORIE: And if a document is complex, is that a reason to
12 have it not admitted, Mr. Stojanovic? Any basis for that?
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] First of all, from the very
14 outset it has been our position that witnesses who do not appear here
15 should not have their statements admitted. A person is not being called
16 here and then this is being tendered nevertheless.
17 Also, this is documentation that was compiled on the 5th of
18 September, 1997 by the Ministry of Police and the Security Services
19 Centre in Bihac. That's what is stated here. So the authenticity of
20 this document is questionable, therefore. It is for all these reasons
21 that we believe that this should not be admitted.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE ORIE: The one and only matter that remains as relevant for
24 our decision, whether or not to admit, is the authenticity.
25 And, Mr. Stojanovic, authenticity of what exactly? It not being
1 a -- the document created in 1997, or the photographs not depicting what
2 they are supposed to depict? What's, exactly, the authenticity issue you
3 raise so that Mr. Zec has an opportunity to tackle it or to accept it?
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, according to this
5 document, photographs were taken in September 1992 which would indicate
6 that this happened in September 1992 at the latest. The photographs and
7 this document, nevertheless, were compiled by a completely different
8 organ from a different town, the CSB in Bihac, on the 5th of September in
9 Bihac, 1997. So we don't have the chain, we don't have any information
10 about how this reached Bihac all of a sudden. So all that brings into
11 question the authenticity of this document.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, irrespective of the fact whether
14 what you raised a second ago is a thorough challenge to the authenticity,
15 because the fact that photographs are taken in 1992 does not
16 automatically mean that they only are accurate or if they are put in a
17 document in 1992.
18 But, Mr. Zec, you have an opportunity to ask further questions
19 about the photographs.
20 MR. ZEC: And only to note, Mr. President, the reason I tendered
21 the whole file is that the statement explains the destruction of the
22 mosque and the chain of custody of the photographs in the file.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
24 MR. ZEC: So that's helpful. And I can certainly provide
25 additional information when we received this file.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, if you want to put any further questions
2 to the witness in relation to the photographs, you have an opportunity to
3 do so.
4 MR. ZEC: Thank you, Mr. President.
5 Q. Ms. Karlica, let's quickly look these photographs, and I'll ask
6 you if you can recognise their location and the mosque.
7 MR. ZEC: So if we can have now in B/C/S and English next page.
8 In English, we should also have -- next page in English. One more page,
10 JUDGE ORIE: Well, in English there are no photographs.
11 MR. ZEC: Yes, Mr. President --
12 JUDGE ORIE: But perhaps the text, yes.
13 MR. ZEC: Correct. Yes, there is the translation of the text.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
15 MR. ZEC:
16 Q. So this is the mosque in Puharska before it was destroyed. Can
17 you recognise?
18 A. I recognise that this is a mosque. But, please, may I be allowed
19 to say something? Please.
20 JUDGE ORIE: No. Witness, you earlier testified that your sister
21 was living quite close to this mosque, I take it.
22 That question was about the same mosque, Mr. Zec.
23 Do you recognise this mosque as the mosque which was close to
24 where your sister lived?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is that mosque. But
1 please, may we clarify one thing: This is Donja Puharska, whereas I
2 spoke about Puharska. I did not speak about Donja Puharska and you keep
3 leading me to -- these are two different places.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That has been clarified previously and it
5 clearly says, under this photograph as well, that is Donja Puharska. So
6 that is -- there is no doubt about that.
7 So please proceed, Mr. Zec.
8 MR. ZEC: Next page in English and B/C/S. Perhaps we can see
9 also next page with -- they are similar, so we can then -- I will ask the
10 witness if she can recognise. Can we have next page.
11 Q. Are you able to recognise this as remains of the mosque in
12 Puharska after this destruction?
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You should clarify Donja Puharska.
14 MR. ZEC: Thank you.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I see it as D Puharska.
16 MR. ZEC: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Q. In Donja Puharska.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: And can we have the English translation of what is
19 being said on this picture, please? Because I think that this related to
20 the previous picture.
21 MR. ZEC: Perhaps we can also go to next page --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Well, let's --
23 MR. ZEC: [Overlapping speakers] ...
24 JUDGE ORIE: -- first see whether the witness can answer the
1 MR. ZEC: Okay.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps you repeat the question so that the witness
3 is reminded of what it was about.
4 MR. ZEC:
5 Q. Ms. Karlica, are you able to recognise this as remains of the
6 mosque, if you remember?
7 A. I cannot challenge this, but I myself had not seen this in this
8 state. I never went there.
9 JUDGE ORIE: The witness had looked at page 7 of the B/C/S in
10 this report. Page 7 in e-court.
11 Please proceed.
12 MR. ZEC: Can we turn next page. Again, next page. Again, next
13 page, please.
14 Q. So on this page, we see the utility company of Prijedor clearing
15 the remains of the mosque. Are you able to recognise anything and were
16 you aware that the public utility company of Prijedor was clearing the
17 sites of this destroyed mosque?
18 A. No, really. No.
19 JUDGE ORIE: The witness was looking at page 10 in e-court of
20 this document.
21 Please proceed.
22 MR. ZEC: Can we turn the page. This is page 11, depicting the
23 house of Rasim Dzafic.
24 Q. Are you able to recognise the house?
25 A. I cannot. Because my sister, I mean, as the crow flies --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Witness, you cannot recognise it. That was
2 the question. You've answered that question.
3 Please proceed. Thank you.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
5 MR. ZEC: Thank you. Can we have next page, and I believe we are
6 now page 11 -- page 12. And this is depicting the house of
7 Zekerijah Kusturan.
8 Q. Can you recognise this house?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Next page, please.
11 MR. ZEC: Again, depicting the house of Rasim Dzafic.
12 Q. Are you able to recognise this?
13 A. No.
14 MR. ZEC: And I believe we have one more photograph at next page.
15 Or that was the end.
16 Q. Ms. Karlica, only to now clarify the Donja Puharska and
17 Gornja Puharska. So these are the two places. The one, Donja Puharska,
18 was closer to the town, and Gornja Puharska was a bit further from the
19 town in same direction; correct?
20 A. Yes, yes.
21 Q. How far would you say is from Donja Puharska to Gornja Puharska?
22 A. I could not really give a precise answer.
23 MR. ZEC: Your Honours, in evidence we have map P1 --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. -- what was your time estimate, Mr. Zec.
25 MR. ZEC: 45 minutes, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: 45 minutes. You are far beyond that, isn't it.
2 MR. ZEC: Correct.
3 JUDGE ORIE: And -- so would you please -- it was time for a
4 break anyhow. Would you please conclude. I mean, if the witness says
5 that she never observed the place after the destruction, then to go
6 through all the details and to hear the no, no, no answers that is -- of
7 course, not, there are other matters as well which may affect the
8 efficiency of your cross-examination.
9 MR. ZEC: Mr. President, the reason I went through the
10 photographs is the Defence objection on the admission of the file. I was
11 hoping the witness can help us in the sense that she can recognise the
12 area and confirm --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 MR. ZEC: -- the information in there.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. She was unable to do so and she made that
16 clear when she answered the question that she had never seen that place
17 after the destruction.
18 Let's move on. If you could please try to conclude within the
19 next two or three minutes.
20 MR. ZEC: I will try, Mr. President. And if I only tender this
21 file into evidence.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The -- still a challenge to authenticity,
23 Mr. Stojanovic?
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Any further details?
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, especially not these --
2 after these questions were put to the witness and she could not recognise
3 any of this or see herself in the context of Gornja Puharska.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE ORIE: The admission is denied, Mr. Zec.
6 Please proceed.
7 MR. ZEC:
8 Q. Ms. Karlica, in paragraph 12 you say that it's well known that in
9 mid-May 1992 there were over 2000 -- more precisely, 2.172 members of the
10 Kozarac -- members of the TO in Kozarac, and you referred to a military
11 expert in the trial of Aleskic and Cerkic in 2014. First, did you know
12 this military expert that you referred to?
13 A. No.
14 MR. ZEC: So can we have quickly 65 ter 2559j.
15 Q. So what we will be looking at is a 1991 census of Prijedor.
16 MR. ZEC: We need page 4. At page 4, we will see there is a --
17 Kozarac in line 36. So we will need next page in B/C/S, following
18 line 36.
19 Q. And it says that Kozarac in 1991 had 4.045 people in total, which
20 includes everyone, women, children, men, elderly, Serbs, Muslims, and the
21 number of Muslims was 3.740. So do you agree that nearly two-thirds of
22 the Kozarac population could not be members of the TO and the figure you
23 cited in your statement, paragraph 12 of your statement, is an error;
25 A. That is not an error because Mr. Sadirlija stated that at the
1 trial that was attended by representatives of our organisation because I
2 could not attend personally.
3 MR. ZEC: I tender this census, Mr. President.
4 JUDGE ORIE: The whole of the ...
5 MR. ZEC: Four pages --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Four pages.
7 MR. ZEC: -- for Prijedor only.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Four pages for Prijedor only.
9 Any objections?
10 Madam Registrar.
11 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Are the four pages uploaded as one document?
13 MR. ZEC: They should be. Yes, Mr. President.
14 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the number would be?
16 THE REGISTRAR: Document 2559j receives number P7029, Your
18 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
19 MR. ZEC: Thank you, Mr. President.
20 Your Honours, nothing further.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you Mr. Zec.
22 We'll take a break.
23 Would you have any questions after the break, Mr. Stojanovic?
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Then in that situation, we would already excuse the
2 Ms. Karlica, since the Defence has no further questions for you,
3 this concludes your testimony in this court. I would like to thank you
4 very much for coming a long way to The Hague and for having answered all
5 the questions that were put to you, put to you by the parties, put to you
6 by the Bench, and I wish you a safe return home again.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
8 JUDGE ORIE: You may follow the usher.
9 [The witness withdrew]
10 JUDGE ORIE: We take a break and will resume at 12.30.
11 --- Recess taken at 12.07 p.m.
12 --- On resuming at 12.33 p.m.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Could we move into private session.
14 [Private session]
11 Pages 30189-30190 redacted. Private session.
25 [Open session]
1 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
3 [The witness entered court]
4 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Kalabic, I take it.
5 Mr. Kalabic, before you give evidence the Rules require that you make a
6 solemn declaration. The text is now handed out to you. May I invite you
7 to make that solemn declaration.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
9 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
10 WITNESS: RAJKO KALABIC
11 [Witness answered through interpreter]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Kalabic. Please be seated.
13 Mr. Kalabic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Ivetic. You find
14 him to your left. Mr. Ivetic is a member of the Defence team of
15 Mr. Mladic.
16 Mr. Ivetic, you may proceed.
17 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Examination by Mr. Ivetic:
19 Q. Good day, sir. Can you please state your full name for the
21 A. Good afternoon. My name is Rajko Kalabic.
22 MR. IVETIC: If we can please have document 1D01617 in e-court.
23 Q. Sir, I would direct your attention to the left side of the
24 monitor and ask you if you could tell us whose signature is visible on
25 the first page of this document?
1 A. The signature on the first page of this document is mine.
2 MR. IVETIC: And if we could turn to the last page of the
4 Q. Sir, can you tell us whose signature appears here?
5 A. Again, my signature appears on this page.
6 Q. And does the date which is recorded herein accurately state the
7 date that you signed this document?
8 A. Yes, the date reflects the date when I signed the document. Yes.
9 Q. And, sir, subsequent to signing this statement, did you have
10 occasion to review the same in Serbian to check if everything is
11 accurately recorded therein?
12 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to move to
13 the microphone.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I reviewed the document.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could you please move a bit more to the
16 microphone or have the microphone adjusted so that it's closer to your
18 MR. IVETIC: Okay. I would like to turn to page 3 in both
20 Q. And I would like to look at paragraph number 6 with you, sir.
21 And I would ask you, sir, to please advise the Chamber of the correction
22 that you wish to make to this paragraph of your statement.
23 A. Could this be zoomed in a little for my benefit so I can actually
24 see it better?
25 Q. The part in question should be the fourth line from the bottom in
1 the B/C/S.
2 A. Yes. What I would like to correct here is the sentence reading:
3 "They first informed me ..." And then "the police station in
4 Kljuc ..."
5 I would like to change this. The sentence as I would like it to
6 be corrected should read:
7 "These forest workers informed first the police station in Kljuc
8 and then me."
9 Q. And if we could look at paragraph 7 on the same page in English,
10 and it will be on the next page in the Serbian, I would ask you, sir, to
11 please advise of what correction is necessary in this page -- in this
13 A. In this paragraph, in the sentence reading as follows:
14 "Six soldiers were killed and around 30 were wounded."
15 This should read:
16 "Around six soldiers were killed ..."
17 I didn't know the exact number. I just knew that it was a close
18 approximation of the exact number.
19 Q. Thank you, sir. And now paragraph 10, which is on the same page,
20 what correction is necessary that you would like to bring to our
21 attention in relation to this paragraph?
22 A. In the sentence which reads:
23 "This thwarted all sorts of traffic in that direction."
24 The correction should be made in the following sense:
25 "The traffic in that direction was rendered more difficult by
2 Q. Thank you, sir. Now apart from these corrections that we have
3 gone through in court, do you stand by the rest of your statement as
4 accurately and correctly setting forth your testimony?
5 A. Yes, I stand by everything in this statement. I consider
6 everything to be truthful and credible.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I -- I just have a question on this very last
9 Sir, does it mean, in fact, that traffic in the opposite
10 direction was safe, it was usable?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The traffic did take place but it
12 was much slower in that place because the road had been dug out. Not
13 enough explosive had been placed in that spot, and it was not placed in
14 such a way that a passing car could activate it.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, but what I'm interested in is in the opposite
16 direction. Was traffic moving in the opposite direction in any manner
17 disturbed or wasn't it?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In both directions, traffic was
19 disturbed because all the passing vehicles had to slow down and drive
20 over that spot that had been dug out very slowly.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are we then to understand that, in fact, you would
22 like to change the statement to say traffic was disturbed on that road --
23 on that part of the road, irrespective of direction?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that it was rendered more
2 difficult or disturbed.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
4 Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.
5 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, sir.
6 Q. Now, sir, if I were to ask you questions based upon the same
7 topics as contained in your statement today, would your answers to my
8 questions be the same as is recorded in the statement?
9 A. Yes, my answers would be the same.
10 Q. And, sir, given that you've taken a solemn declaration today,
11 would that mean that the answers, including what is recorded in your
12 statement, are truthful in nature?
13 A. Yes, my answers are truthful.
14 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, we would tender this statement has the
15 next public exhibit. There are no associated exhibits.
16 MR. TRALDI: No objections, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 Mr. Ivetic, before we decide, may I take it that the reference
19 to -- I think it was on paragraph 10 of the 92 ter motion about
20 Sanski Most, et cetera, that that's a mistake rather than the statement
21 being a mistake.
22 MR. IVETIC: Correct.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
25 JUDGE ORIE: I would advise to carefully read a motion before
1 it's signed. You didn't sign it, so -- but having clarified this matter,
2 Madam Registrar, the number would be?
3 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D1617 receives number D867, Your
5 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
6 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
7 I have a short summary.
8 Witness Rajko Kalabic was elected during the first multiparty
9 elections in 1990 as a deputy of the chamber of municipalities of the
10 Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina from Kljuc municipality. In Kljuc, the
11 SDS received over 50 per cent of the vote and the SDA about 20 per cent
12 of the vote. Despite this, the key posts in the local government were
13 distributed equally among Serb and Muslim personnel. The president of
14 the municipal assembly was a Serb.
15 As early as 1991, the Muslims formed the Donji Kraji Muslim
16 municipality of Kljuc. Although they formed their own municipality, they
17 still went to work in Kljuc and received their salaries. This was the
18 case until 27 May 1992, when Muslims failed to turn up for work. That
19 same day, Deputy Police Commander Stojakovic was ambushed and killed at
20 Krasulje and several police were injured at the hands of the Muslims.
21 That same day the army was also under attack as several buses of unarmed
22 soldiers was attacked by men under the command of Omer Filipovic, a
23 Muslim. The road was also mined between Laniste and Velagici. A Serb
24 driver was hanged and killed by the roadside at Pudin Han.
25 This series of attacks sparked a revolt among the Serb
1 population. After these events, a unit of the VRS under the command of
2 Colonel Galic came from the Kula barracks near Mrkonjic Grad. Weapons
3 were collected in the villages where Omer Filipovic had his paramilitary
4 units. During the fighting between the VRS and Muslim paramilitaries,
5 the civilian Muslim population was invited over the radio to take shelter
6 in the town of Kljuc, and after the end of combat the municipal
7 authorities put them on buses and returned them to their home villages.
8 This completes the summary.
9 Q. Sir, I would like to turn together to page 2 of your statement
10 and paragraph 1 of the same, which specifies that you were employed as
11 director of forest management at Sip before the war. Could you please
12 tell us what was your professional occupation during the war?
13 A. At that time, I was the manager of the 1st Company within the
14 Sipad-Kljuc enterprise. I was then elected as a deputy in the Assembly
15 of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. As a volunteer. I was
16 not a professional politician, that is. And then during the war, by
17 virtue of my position as a deputy in the Assembly of the Socialist
18 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, which then became Republika Srpska, I was
19 a member of the Crisis Staff of the municipality, again as a volunteer,
20 not as a professional.
21 Q. And, sir, the work which you performed within the Crisis Staff of
22 Kljuc, was that a full-time position?
23 A. No. It was a voluntary position. It was a temporary engagement.
24 I had to attend meetings called by the president of the Crisis Staff or
25 the president of the municipality. When such a meeting was called, if I
1 could I would attend such a meeting, and if I am indisposed, then I would
2 say so. I would give the reasons why I couldn't attend.
3 MR. IVETIC: I would like to move to page 3 in both languages.
4 Q. And I would like to look at paragraph 5 of your statement. Can
5 you tell us, sir, whose proposal was it to split the executive positions
6 in the local government 50/50 despite the overwhelming SDS victory in the
8 A. The SDS leadership proposed the positions in Kljuc municipality
9 should be distributed proportionally, 50 per cent for the SDS and 50
10 per cent for the SDA. And that was how things were done.
11 Q. Can you tell us what was the objective behind this proposal?
12 A. The objective of such a proposal was to honour the SDS position
13 on the necessity to have a good co-operation between the parties in power
14 so as to ensure that the life in the municipality continued normally. In
15 other words, every possibility of discrimination was avoided, or rather
16 there was an attempt made to avoid any possible form of discrimination in
17 that way.
18 Q. Thank you, sir.
19 MR. IVETIC: I would like to move now to page 4 in both
21 Q. And I would like to focus on paragraph 14 of your statement. Can
22 you please perhaps explain for us what you meant to convey -- what
23 information you meant to convey in this paragraph?
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could we see paragraph 4, please, in the English.
25 MR. IVETIC: 14 it should be, Your Honours.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can I start?
2 JUDGE ORIE: You can answer the question.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In this paragraph, I wanted to say
4 that what happened on the 27th of May, 1992, was not an accident.
5 Everything had been planned in advance. The SDA leadership knew that a
6 significant number of the Serbian soldiers were outside of Kljuc either
7 in training in Zenica, which is 30 kilometres away from Kljuc, or were
8 reassigned to some other units which were far away from Kljuc. It was a
9 suitable moment because the VRS army was not nearby to do what was done
10 on the 27th of May.
11 On the 27th of May, a police patrol was intercepted and the
12 deputy commander of the police was killed, and a convoy of young recruits
13 was attacked as they were returning from having served in the army and
14 they were on their way back to Serbia, Montenegro, and other parts of the
15 former Yugoslavia. They had served as recruits in the JNA. They had
16 done their service and they were on their way home.
17 MR. IVETIC:
18 Q. Okay.
19 MR. IVETIC: And now I'd like to look at page 5 in English and 6
20 in the Serbian.
21 Q. And I would like to focus on paragraph 22 of your statement.
22 Here you talk of how all police officers were asked to remain at their
23 jobs despite their ethnicity, but many Muslims were not prepared to
24 preserve the Republika Srpska. Do you recall any examples of non-Serbs
25 that remained in the police in Kljuc municipality?
1 A. Amongst the police in the Kljuc municipality, there was a person
2 in uniform, a Croat, who stayed on the force until the end of the war.
3 And after the war, he continued working in the police.
4 Q. Do you recall any other non-Serbs that stayed in important
5 positions and jobs within Kljuc municipality during the war?
6 A. Well, until the end of the war also a Croat stayed on as
7 secretary in SIK Kljuc, which is a prominent position as well, and also a
8 Muslim stayed on -- or, rather, several Muslims stayed on in SIK Kljuc,
9 at the post office, and in some other companies. However, some people
10 stayed until the end of the war, and a number of these people went
11 abroad, Switzerland, Austria, Germany, and so on.
12 Q. Do you recall any non-Serbs in Kljuc municipality who were
13 serving in the VRS in any capacity?
14 A. Well, I mean, there were several Muslims and Croats who served in
15 the army or were, rather, part of the Army of Republika Srpska until the
16 end of the war. Some of them did stay, but a Croat held the most
17 prominent position. He was a captain. He stayed in the Army of
18 Republika Srpska until the end of the war, and after the war he remained
19 in Kljuc and he had this job.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, could we try to be a bit more concrete.
21 For both categories, that is, those, you said, prominent
22 positions in -- I think you specifically mentioned secretary of SIK, post
23 office, you said:
24 "Some people stayed until the end war, and a number of these
25 people went abroad, Switzerland, Austria, Germany."
1 Now, could you tell us how many stayed until the end of the war?
2 Was it 1, was it 10, was it 50, was it a hundred? How many stayed up
3 until the end of the war of this category?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Until the end of the war, that is
5 to say until the end of the war, there was this captain in the army,
6 that's to say, he didn't go anywhere --
7 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ...
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- and the secretary --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I split up the two categories. I'm first
10 asking about the first category; that is, the category in which the
11 secretary of the SIK and the post office people were there, how many of
12 those stayed in their prominent positions until the end of the war?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Until he retired, the secretary
14 from Sip stayed on. During the war, he managed to have enough years for
15 retirement and then he retired and stayed in Kljuc, and then there were
16 other people who worked throughout the war, kept their jobs. They did
17 not hold prominent positions, but they had certain office jobs.
18 JUDGE ORIE: But do I then well understand from those holding
19 prominent positions, that one remained but retired during the war and
20 that not any other prominent person remained in that position until the
21 end of the war?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Now, the second category; that is, those serving in
24 the VRS. You told us about a Croatian captain who stayed until the end
25 of the war and then even stayed after the war on the VRS. How many
1 others were staying there in the VRS throughout the war? Non-Serbs.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know the exact number, but
3 a small number were there certainly throughout the war, in the Army of
4 Republika Srpska. I don't know the exact number.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Do you know any other person by name or you say ...
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I cannot -- I cannot remember
7 any names now because it's really been a very long, long time ago.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So concretely we have only one person in a
9 prominent position, secretary of the Sip, who retired during the war, so
10 therefore did not stay until the end of the war in his position, and
11 concretely you can tell us about one Croatian officer of Kljuc that
12 remained in the VRS throughout the war?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. And I said that a policeman
14 also stayed on in the police force until the end of the war and continued
15 to work in the police after the war.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And who was that?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember that policeman very
18 well. His last name was Modric. I cannot remember his first name now.
19 Zdeno -- Zdenko, I've just remembered now. Zdenko Modric.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
21 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
22 MR. IVETIC: Okay. I would like to look at paragraph 20 on the
23 same page in English but on the prior page in the Serbian.
24 Q. And --
25 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
1 MR. IVETIC: I suspect it's the same problem that the back is
2 having with e-court.
3 THE REGISTRAR: E-court is not functioning at this moment. We
4 are waiting for ITSS to assist us.
5 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, that's also what my staff told me.
6 Let me see if there is any questions that do not relate to the statement.
7 Yes --
8 JUDGE ORIE: If you --
9 MR. IVETIC: I can move to a question that does not need e-court.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Otherwise you could perhaps quote from the
12 MR. IVETIC: Oh, I could do that.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 MR. IVETIC: That's easy enough.
15 Q. Sir, in paragraph 20 of your statement, you talk about attempts
16 that were made to try to prevent incidents of plunder and crime. Could
17 you tell us what specific measures were attempted by the municipal
18 authorities to try to prevent incidents of plunder and crime?
19 A. The municipal authorities asked the police and army to protect
20 buildings, facilities in villages, and also the population in villages
21 where there were no war operations, and that was done in the villages
22 that were on the other side of Kljuc in relation to the villages where
23 there were war operations going on, and these villages are the following:
24 Dubocanin, Velecevo, Zgon, and Mehmedagici. In these villages, both the
25 buildings and the population were protected. At that point in time, the
1 population was still there.
2 Q. And, sir, if you could help us for these villages that you have
3 identified, what would have been the ethnicity of the inhabitants of
4 those villages?
5 A. In these villages, the population was Muslim only except for
6 Mehmedagici. In Mehmedagici, about 10 per cent of the population was of
7 a different ethnic background; Serb or Croat, that is.
8 Q. Thank you, sir. Now I would like to ask you if you had any -- if
9 you had the occasion to learn at any time of any killings of detained
10 Muslims that occurred 1st June 1992 in relation to the village of
12 A. Yes. I found out about that situation in the municipal building
13 in the office of the president of the municipality who was the president
14 of the Crisis Staff at the same time.
15 In the early evening hours, I was in the municipality building
16 and there were other people there too. Among them, President Banjac was
17 there and Colonel Galic. Colonel Galic asked President Banjac to make it
18 possible for him to have the director of the company that had buses and
19 transported passengers come to that office, and that did happen, and
20 Colonel Galic asked him to provide two buses and to send them to Velagici
21 to take over the detainees -- I mean, to have the detainees transported
22 on these buses to Manjaca. The director of transport left, he sent two
23 buses, and half an hour later two bus drivers walked into the office and
24 stated that in Velagici they found people who had been killed.
25 Colonel Galic was very surprised. He jumped up and he swore at
1 that moment. So it was in that way and then that I found out that that
2 had happened in Velagici.
3 Q. And did you hear or have knowledge of any other directions that
4 Colonel Galic gave in respect to what had happened and any instructions
5 for further measures?
6 A. Colonel Galic immediately ordered the arrest of the persons who
7 had been guarding the school. They were handed over to the prosecutor's
8 office, the military prosecutor's office, I don't know what the name was
9 then, and these people were tried for what they did in Velagici.
10 Q. And subsequent to this, what information did the Crisis Staff
11 receive in follow-up as to these perpetrators?
12 A. As for the arrested persons, the information we had was that
13 prosecution was under way and that things were taking their course. And,
14 of course, I had no further information about that.
15 Q. Sir, I thank you on behalf of General Mladic and my team for
16 answering my questions.
17 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, that finishes our direct examination.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.
19 I suggest, Mr. Traldi, that we take a break first and that you
20 will then have the first half-hour of your cross-examination after the
22 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Mr. President.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, we'll take a break of 20 minutes. We would
24 like to see you back. We'll not finish your -- to hear your evidence
25 today, but we have half an hour left after the break. You may follow the
2 [The witness stands down]
3 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at quarter to 2.00.
4 --- Recess taken at 1.24 p.m.
5 --- On resuming at 1.48 p.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: We could see whether there is still some time
7 remaining for the Court agenda. I'd like to deal with -- no, let's way
8 until we get a moment.
9 [The witness takes the stand]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kalabic, you'll now be cross-examined by
11 Mr. Traldi. You'll find Mr. Traldi to your right. Mr. Traldi is counsel
12 for the Prosecution.
13 Please proceed.
14 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Mr. President.
15 Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi:
16 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
17 A. Good afternoon.
18 Q. Now, sir, you've previously testified as a Defence witness in the
19 Brdjanin and Karadzic cases here at the ICTY; right?
20 A. Yes, that's right.
21 Q. And you testified as a defence witness in the Lukic and Adamovic
22 case in the Bosnian state court; right?
23 A. Yes, that's right.
24 Q. And is it your evidence that you told the truth in those
1 A. I have already said that my evidence is true.
2 Q. I want to go now briefly through the positions you held during
3 the war. You were a member of the Bosnian assembly, as you say in your
4 statement. You were also a member of the Assembly of the Serbian
5 Republic in Bosnia; right?
6 A. Yes, that's right.
7 Q. And you were a member of the Assembly of the Autonomous Region of
8 Krajina; right?
9 A. Yes, that's right.
10 Q. You mentioned on direct examination that you were a member of the
11 Kljuc Crisis Staff. You were also a member of the Kljuc War Presidency
12 which was formed on the 10th of July, 1992; right?
13 A. The Crisis Staff is the same thing as the War Presidency, except
14 the name was changed. And, yes, I was a member.
15 Q. Now, members of the military, the VRS, would attend meetings of
16 that Crisis Staff; right?
17 A. Sometimes but not always.
18 Q. Well, let's ask about a couple of people specifically. First,
19 you mentioned being at a meeting with Colonel Galic. During the period
20 from the 27th of May to the 1st of June, Colonel Galic would attend
21 Crisis Staff meetings; right?
22 A. From time to time, he did attend meetings.
23 Q. Where was he based during that period?
24 A. He was based in the Kula barracks, the municipality of
25 Mrkonjic Grad.
1 Q. Sorry, sir. During those few days from the 27th of May to the
2 1st of June, after he had come to Kljuc, where was he based?
3 A. Well, I would see him only in the office of the president of the
4 municipality. I did not see him elsewhere. I don't know whether he had
5 any particular headquarters in the municipality of Kljuc.
6 Q. Now, you would sometimes attend meetings of the ARK Crisis Staff;
8 A. Well, once or perhaps two times. I cannot remember exactly.
9 Q. And your recollection is that the president of Kljuc,
10 Jovo Banjac, was a member of the ARK Crisis Staff as president; right?
11 A. Yes, he was a member of the Crisis Staff of the ARK.
12 Q. And his duty as president of Kljuc and a member of the ARK
13 Crisis Staff, one of his duties was to inform the Kljuc Crisis Staff
14 about the ARK Crisis Staff's work and its decisions; right?
15 A. That's the way it was supposed to be. However, the president
16 very rarely attended these meetings. Or, rather, to the best of my
17 knowledge. Perhaps he attended meetings of the Crisis Staff just a few
18 times, not more than that.
19 Q. So you do recall that it was his duty to inform members of the
20 Kljuc Crisis Staff of decisions passed by the ARK Crisis Staff; right?
21 A. Well, he was supposed to provide information to all members of
22 the Crisis Staff, I mean, about the conclusions of the Crisis Staff of
23 the autonomous region.
24 Q. And before the --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi --
1 MR. TRALDI: Yes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: -- one of the previous answers leaves a question
4 You said, talking about Mr. Banjac, you said:
5 "Perhaps he attended meetings of the Crisis Staff just a few
6 times, not more than that."
7 Now immediately before that, you were talking about his position
8 as a member of the Crisis Staff of the ARK and as a member of the
9 Crisis Staff of Kljuc. When you said he attended meetings of the
10 Crisis Staff just a few times, did you refer to the ARK Crisis Staff, or
11 did you refer to the Kljuc Crisis Staff, or to both?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm referring to the Crisis Staff
13 of the autonomous region.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That was the Crisis Staff he attended only a
15 few times.
16 Please proceed.
17 MR. TRALDI:
18 Q. Now, before the war you also sometimes attended the sessions of
19 the SDS Main Board in Sarajevo; right?
20 A. Well, I wasn't a member of the SDS Main Board, and I cannot
21 remember whether I was present, perhaps once or twice, at a meeting of
22 the SDS Main Board.
23 MR. TRALDI: Well, could we have 65 ter 31813, page 64.
24 MR. IVETIC: I bring to counsel's attention, e-court says that
25 this is under seal. I don't know why it would be, but that's what the
1 description says in e-court.
2 MR. TRALDI: Yes. Without going into the reasons, I can say this
3 is Mr. Kalabic's testimony in the Karadzic case given without protective
4 measures but with some limited portions in private session. I had
5 checked beforehand and this wasn't one of them.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Ivetic is -- we are thanking Mr. Ivetic
7 for drawing the attention to it and apparently you have considered it
9 Please proceed.
10 MR. TRALDI: And I thank Mr. Ivetic for the reminder as well.
11 Q. Now, you were asked here by Mr. Karadzic, beginning at line 6:
12 "Did you go to the sessions of the Main Board of the
13 Serbian Democratic Party in Sarajevo?"
14 And you answered:
15 "Seldom. The president of the municipal board of the SDS usually
16 was there" -- sorry, "usually went there. I was someone -- sometimes
17 there but it was not very frequently."
18 Do you stand by the testimony you gave in the Karadzic case that
19 you did sometimes attend sessions of the Main Board of the SDS in
21 A. Can you show me the document? I'd like to know what exactly I
23 Q. Sir, this is your testimony in the Karadzic case. The transcript
24 is only in English. I'm asking you: Do you stand by the sworn testimony
25 you gave just over a year ago that I've just read back to you?
1 A. Yes, I stand by the testimony I gave.
2 Q. And so you sometimes attended sessions of the Main Board of the
3 SDS in Sarajevo and usually the president of the Kljuc Municipal Board of
4 the SDS went to those sessions; right?
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. And the president of the Kljuc Municipal Board, who was that?
7 A. The president of the SDS Kljuc Municipal Board was Veljko Kondic.
8 Q. And he would report back to the Kljuc SDS about what had happened
9 at those sessions; right?
10 A. If he attended a session, he would briefly report back on what
11 had been concluded at such a session.
12 Q. Now, I want to turn to your evidence -- well, I want to turn to
13 the topic of political developments before the war, and I want to start
14 in December 1991. When you were in Sarajevo in December 1991, you saw a
15 copy of the instructions for the organisation of the Serbian people;
17 A. I don't remember that I ever saw a copy of the instruction for
18 the organisation of the Serbian people.
19 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 31814, page 18.
20 Q. And, sir, this will be your sworn testimony in the Brdjanin case.
21 Now, beginning at line 15, Mr. Brdjanin counsel, Mr. Ackerman, asked you:
22 "You have a document, sir, at tab 27 of your book. The last
23 document in your book. It's Exhibit P25. I've only got it there so that
24 you can refresh your memory as to what it is. It's the Variant A and B
25 document which you have seen. And I'll ask you if you've seen it before
1 I showed it to you yesterday."
2 And you answered:
3 "Yes, I saw this document in Sarajevo."
4 So I'll ask you again: Do you stand behind your sworn testimony
5 in the Brdjanin trial as truthful and accurate?
6 A. My testimony was correct and truthful, but it was a long time ago
7 so I can't remember all the things that I said. Therefore, it would be
8 good if I were presented with the things that you're asking me about on
9 the screen in the Serbian language so as to jog my memory. All the time
10 I'm seeing something in English on the screen.
11 JUDGE ORIE: And there is no B/C/S version, and that's the reason
12 why it's read out to you, and then it is interpreted by our interpreters,
13 and then you receive it in your own language.
14 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic.
16 MR. IVETIC: -- I believe the witness is talking about the
17 document, the Variant A and B document, which was described as
18 instructions by Mr. Traldi which is referred to as Variant A and B
19 document in this transcript. He's asking to see that document so that he
20 can know which documents he's being asked if he saw.
21 MR. TRALDI: I'm happy to call it up. Could we have P03038.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: What's the number, Mr. Traldi?
23 MR. TRALDI: 03038.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
25 MR. TRALDI:
1 Q. Now, seeing these instructions on the screen and having been
2 reminded of your testimony in the Brdjanin case, does that refresh your
3 recollection as to whether, in fact, you saw this document in Sarajevo in
4 December 1991?
5 A. Yes, yes, I saw the document.
6 Q. And the document was then given to representatives of the SDS who
7 brought these instructions back to their respective municipalities;
9 A. I don't know if they were all given it, but I know that the
10 president of the SDS, Veljko Kondic, was in charge of that. So he was
11 the one who had it, not me.
12 Q. So who gave Veljko Kondic a copy of this document to take back to
14 A. I can't remember. However, I suppose it was done by the services
15 of -- administrative services of the party organs. I didn't really
16 follow the goings on, who got it and who didn't.
17 Q. And you said you saw it in Sarajevo. Were you present when it
18 was given to him, if you remember?
19 A. I don't remember.
20 Q. Okay.
21 MR. TRALDI: Now, can the Prosecution please have MFI P7003.
22 As -- and this will be a shorthand record of the 4th Session of the RS
24 Q. As it comes up, sir, you mentioned Mr. Kondic but clearly he
25 wasn't the only representative of the SDS who was given this to take back
1 to their municipality. You said you don't know if they were all given it
2 but you know that many members of the SDS received this and took it back
3 to their municipalities; right?
4 A. Well, I don't know who got it, whether many got it, how many got
5 it. I really don't know. I didn't see it. It was not my task to
6 monitor those things.
7 Q. Well, this is the 4th Session of the RS Assembly, and I'll turn
8 to it now. It was also held while you were in the Sarajevo in
9 December 1991.
10 MR. TRALDI: Could we have page 26 in the English, 55 in the
12 Q. We see here Vukic speaking. This is Radislav Vukic, one of the
13 other political leaders in the Autonomous Region of the Krajina; right?
14 A. I don't remember Radislav Vukic.
15 MR. TRALDI: Turning to page 27 in the English and 56 in the
17 Q. Mr. Vukic says at the end of his remarks:
18 "The Serbian people of Bosnian Krajina and Bosnia-Herzegovina as
19 a whole are part of the Serbian nation in Yugoslavia and as a constituent
20 nation they are not going to accept any decision on which state they are
21 going to live in without their consent, especially not this majoritarian
22 illegal decision made by the other two nations. If the EC goes on with
23 its threat to recognise Bosnia and Herzegovina as an independent state or
24 as part of a future Independent State of Croatia, or the Independent
25 State of Bosnia and Herzegovina, there will be another Serbian uprising
1 and there will be massive bloodshed in which some nations that have been
2 subsequently created, will disappear altogether. Thank you."
3 And the transcript records there was applause.
4 Now, when Mr. Vukic is referring here to nations that have been
5 subsequently created, I put to you he means Muslims; right?
6 A. First of all, I don't know Mr. Vukic. I can't remember of
7 anybody delivering such a speech; therefore, I can't make any inferences
8 as to what they thought if they said what you say they did.
9 Q. What -- of the three nations in Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Croats,
10 the Muslims, the Serbs, was one of those three described by Serb leaders
11 as having been subsequently or recently created?
12 A. I don't know who they meant if they spoke like this, which people
13 or peoples they had in mind. I don't know. I'm not in a position to
14 know that.
15 Q. Well, sir, how old is the Serb nation in your view?
16 A. I don't know. I've never been interested in the issue at all.
17 Q. And how long had a census category and one of the constituent
18 peoples in the former Yugoslavia?
19 THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]
20 JUDGE ORIE: No speaking aloud.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My answer can only be arbitrary. I
22 can't give you a correct answer to your question. I'm in no position to
23 answer such questions of yours with any accuracy.
24 MR. TRALDI:
25 Q. Let's see if you're in a position to answer they question.
1 Mr. Vukic says a nation is going to disappear altogether in massive
2 bloodshed if there is a declaration of independence and then people
3 applaud. People would not have applauded if he had -- or if they'd
4 understood him to mean the Serbs were going to disappear; right?
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic.
6 MR. IVETIC: I am going to object. If counsel's going to refer
7 to a document, counsel should cite to the document correctly, not giving
8 a free-hand interpretation of what the document actually says.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please quote literally, Mr. Traldi.
10 MR. TRALDI: Sure.
11 Q. "If the EC goes on with its threat to recognise
12 Bosnia-Herzegovina as an independent state or as part of a future
13 Independent State of Croatia or the Independent State of
14 Bosnia-Herzegovina, there will be another Serbian uprising and there will
15 be massive bloodshed in which some nations that have been subsequently
16 created will disappear altogether. Thank you. (Applause)."
17 So I put to you again, no one would have applauded if they
18 thought Mr. Vukic meant that the Serbs were going to disappear; right?
19 A. I don't remember this kind of speech --
20 JUDGE ORIE: One second. Mr. Mladic, you now two times spoke
21 aloud. Now you are standing, which you're supposed not to do. This is
22 the last warning. If you want to consult with counsel, you can do so now
23 but at an inaudible volume level.
24 Please proceed.
25 MR. TRALDI:
1 Q. Now, as a deputy in the assembly, part of your role, parallel to
2 Mr. Kondic's, was to go back to Kljuc and report on what happened at the
3 RS Assembly sessions; right?
4 A. No, the president of the SDS Municipal Board was in charge of
5 that, not me.
6 Q. We'll see if I can refresh your recollection, but I'm going to
7 have to do it tomorrow. In the meantime, I'd put to you: You, in fact,
8 reported to the Kljuc SDS about what happened at this particular assembly
9 session, didn't you?
10 A. No, that's not correct.
11 MR. TRALDI: I think that's a good place to break and pick up in
12 the morning, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll adjourn for the day, Mr. Kalabic. But
14 I'd first like to instruct you that you should not speak or communicate
15 in whatever way with whomever about your testimony, that is testimony
16 you've given today, or that is testimony still to be given, and we'd like
17 to see you back tomorrow morning at 9.30. You may follow the usher now.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 [The witness stands down]
20 JUDGE ORIE: We adjourn for the day and we'll resume tomorrow,
21 Tuesday, the 20th of January, 9.30 in the morning, in this same
22 courtroom, I.
23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.17 p.m.,
24 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 20th day
25 of January, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.