1 Wednesday, 11 February 2015
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
9 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 We are waiting for the witness to be escorted into the courtroom.
12 Perhaps I meanwhile briefly address the following matter. The
13 Chamber has pointed out to the Defence the safe conduct orders that it
14 has issued in this case, that: First, such orders are not meant to grant
15 immunity to witnesses for acts committed after leaving their state of
16 residence; and two, that there is no basis for ordering the Prosecution
17 to refrain from contacting witnesses prior to the commencement or after
18 the completion of their testimony.
19 [The witness takes the stand]
20 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber therefore wonders why the Defence
21 continues to make these requests in its motions for safe conduct.
22 We'd like to hear whether there is any good reason for that, but
23 let it be clear that it is the final reminder of the Chamber on this
25 Good morning, Mr. Javoric. Mr. Javoric, Mr. Lukic will continue
1 his re-examination but only after I have reminded you that you are still
2 bound by the solemn declaration you have given at the beginning of your
4 Mr. Lukic.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
6 WITNESS: RADE JAVORIC [Resumed]
7 [Witness answered through interpreter]
8 Re-examination by Mr. Lukic: [Continued]
9 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Javoric. We'll go through
10 this quickly.
11 MR. LUKIC: We need on our screens P2871, please.
12 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Javoric, on the screen you will see the
13 minutes of the 4th Session of the Council for National Defence of the
14 Prijedor Municipal Assembly. It was held on 15 May 1992. You were there
15 as well. I would like to ask you about that body. I can see that that
16 body issued conclusions. Were those conclusions binding?
17 A. The Council for National Defence?
18 Q. Yes, or was it just a council?
19 A. It was a council that gave proposals to the assembly about many
21 Q. Thank you. And now we're going to look at another document, but
22 let's first pay attention to the first conclusion in this document. It
23 says here the draft of the decision on the organisation and functioning
24 of the Crisis Staff is approved under the proviso that a representative
25 of the garrison in Prijedor be added to the proposed list of the
1 Crisis Staff members. The document was issued on the 15th of May.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now I would like to call up
4 Q. We are going to look at the decision on the appointment of the
5 Prijedor Crisis Staff. You will see that at the bottom of the B/C/S
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And we are on a good page in English.
8 Let's look at the last two lines in the B/C/S version, under the Roman
9 numeral I.
10 Q. It says here:
11 "The following are hereby appointed to the post of President,
12 Vice-President, and members of Prijedor Municipal Crisis Staff."
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And in B/C/S, we need to go to the
14 following page.
15 Q. And now we can see a list of a total of ten people. Among the
16 ten people -- we will not read their names aloud. You can do that for
17 yourself. Do you see a representative of the Prijedor garrison among
18 those ten people?
19 A. No, I don't. He's not here.
20 Q. In other words, the conclusion that we saw and that was passed
21 five days before the decision on the appointment of the Prijedor
22 Municipal Crisis Staff was not taken into account, it was not
23 implemented; right? Was that normal? Was it normal for the conclusions
24 by the council to be either implemented or not, as the case may have
1 A. Yes, that was the case.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, if I would have known nothing about the
3 whole matter, carefully listening to your question tells me exactly what
4 answer you are seeking. That is what we call leading, and you should
5 refrain from that. And it's not the first time that I say it, and I
6 repeat to say it because what you are doing, you're diminishing the
7 probative value of the answers of the witness, and that's something, I
8 think, would not be in your interest.
9 Please proceed.
10 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
11 Q. [Interpretation] Therefore, did that body, the Council for
12 National Defence of the Municipal Assembly of Prijedor, did it have the
13 power to issue orders?
14 A. No, not at that moment. No.
15 Q. Were you involved in the military, based on the decisions of this
17 A. No, I was not a member of the Crisis Staff. I was a member of
18 the military. I was not in the Crisis Staff, nor was anybody from the
19 military a member.
20 Q. The Crisis Staff is a different body. We are talking about the
22 A. I was in the council.
23 Q. On page 3145 of our transcript, lines 17 onwards, you were asked
24 whether you knew that the military police were in Keraterm. You said no.
25 And now I would like to ask you this: Did you know that the Keraterm
1 facility was actually a prison for the Serb soldiers who violated the
3 A. I heard that but I was not in Keraterm during the war.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi.
5 MR. TRALDI: Leading, again. I object.
6 MR. LUKIC: How would else I ask if he knew?
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: What was Keraterm used for.
8 MR. LUKIC: Okay.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it's -- and don't be upset.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Don't be upset.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Then you can, in follow-up questions, take a course
12 on trial techniques, Mr. Lukic, and you'll learn a lot.
13 Please proceed.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And please correct the transcript reference for
15 the transcript of yesterday. It can't be the correct one.
16 MR. LUKIC: I have 3145, line 17.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is wrong. Because --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yesterday we -- we are far beyond 3000 transcript
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We have been at 31000.
21 MR. LUKIC: 3100, I will correct that. Obviously I have one
22 number less than I should have.
23 Q. [Interpretation] You were asked by my learned friend whether you
24 knew about the goings-on in the investigation centres. You said that you
25 were never in any of them. What you knew about them, how did you learn
1 all that?
2 A. If I said that I went to the corridor, and the connection between
3 the troops and the officers on the corridor and the garrison was regular.
4 And we learned from the intelligence officers what was going on. One of
5 them was Miso Rodic. Radomir and Dragan Radakovic were those who sent us
6 reports. So that's how we knew what was going on.
7 Q. On page 31456 of yesterday's transcripts, lines 2 through 6, you
8 were asked whether you knew that the VRS shelled Hambarine. Did you ever
9 learn if there was any fighting going on in Hambarine?
10 A. Yesterday, I said that there was an attack on JNA members near
11 Hambarine. There was an ultimatum to surrender weapons. Weapons were
12 not surrendered. When I gave my statement over a year ago, and you were
13 there, just for one day -- and that was not fair. You should have given
14 me more time to give you that statement. I gave you that statement, you
15 took it, I didn't see it then. I wanted to give you as much information
16 as possible.
17 Subsequently I learned that it was a Lieutenant-Colonel
18 Jakov Maric who ordered the shelling. I didn't know. I didn't see.
19 That's what you can find in my statement. I only learned about that
21 Q. Thank you. I asked you whether you learnt that on the following
22 day there was fighting going on in Hambarine?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. On transcript page 314556 [as interpreted], lines 13 to 16, you
25 were asked whether the VRS had shelled Kozarac.
1 A. I don't have my statement in front of me. Should I have it or
3 Q. It wouldn't be a bad idea for you to have it.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: If you can repeat the transcript reference you
6 MR. LUKIC: 31456, line 13 to 16.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: If you count all pages together, then you have
8 the right number of digits. One less at the beginning and now one in
10 Mr. Lukic, please don't be disturbed. It was just a joke.
11 MR. LUKIC: Yeah, but I have to check it and I'll come back to
12 correct the transcript.
13 Q. [Interpretation] Do you know, Mr. Javoric, who is the first
14 person who was killed in Kozarac? Do you know that? On that day when
15 fighting was going on.
16 A. It was a JNA soldier, Ranko Zgonjanin's son. He was a younger
17 son, and he was in the military column when he was killed.
18 Q. According to what you know, were there any fightings going on in
20 A. Yes, there were.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let me just make a correction.
22 [In English] For the transcript, the correct page I quoted wrongly at the
23 beginning is 31450. I apologise.
24 [Interpretation] And now let's go to transcript page 31459,
25 line 2.
1 Q. You wanted to say something about Gornja and Donja Ljubija
2 because you thought that we would be interested. Would you please tell
3 us what you wanted to say.
4 A. Yes, I will. In Ljubija, Mehmed Topic, who was a Muslim, captain
5 first class, in Ljeskare, Stipo Tokmadzic [phoen], who was a Croat.
6 Owing to those two and some others, there were no paramilitaries in
7 Ljubija. Ljeskare is a mixed village composed of Croats, Muslims, and
8 some Serbs. Donja Ljubija, all Muslims. And owing to those people, the
9 few paramilitaries there were there were disarmed, their weapons were
10 handed over to the barracks, there were no operations there, there was no
11 destruction there, and a lot of the villagers of Muslim and Croatian
12 ethnicity joined the VRS.
13 And now I can give you another sentence, or perhaps two. In
14 Donja Puharska. I can give you a list of people who were not armed at
15 all. Amaragic [phoen], for example, Basic, and so on and so forth.
16 When the police embarked on an operation to disarm paramilitaries
17 where there were no weapons, those houses were not touched. If there
18 were weapons in the houses, there were casualties there. In Hambarine,
19 only a day later in Puharska on a regular patrol they captured
20 Captain Brdo, the assistant for morale affairs. Somebody wanted to cause
21 an incident. It was in Hambarine.
22 After what had happened, they captured those officers and they
23 took away their weapons. I called some officers. The weapons were
24 returned, but the resistance continued even after that for houses where
25 there were arms.
1 Q. [No interpretation]
2 A. I would like to thank the Presiding Judge for having allowed me
3 to expand on some topics. I apologise for taking up some valuable time,
4 but I wanted to make sure that the Prosecution understands things
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Javoric, I would have one question. But let me
7 first find exactly the transcript passage dealing with it.
8 Questioned by the Court:
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Javoric, you said that you -- when asked about
10 the attack on Hambarine and who ordered the shelling, you said:
11 "Well, when I gave the statement, it was only one day. I learned
12 later," if I understood you well, "who had ordered that."
13 Whereas, of course, in your statement you say that you do not
14 know who ordered it; although, yesterday you said, well, it was VRS
16 Before you came to this courtroom, did you have an opportunity to
17 tell Mr. Lukic what you learned meanwhile and what would have changed
18 your statement if you would have known that a year before? Did you have
19 an opportunity to talk to him?
20 A. Just before I arrived, I learned who had carried out the
21 shelling, and I said it clear and loud yesterday: Lieutenant-Colonel
22 Jakov Maric, who was the chief of artillery. He was the only one who
23 could have done that. And when I spoke to Lukic --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's what I was interested in, yes. What
25 did you then -- did you speak with Mr. Lukic about it?
1 A. I thought it was too late to change anything. I arrived on
2 Saturday from the airport. This is my first appearance at any court, let
3 alone such a high tribunal. And if I'd known that things could be
4 changed, that there was a procedure in place for that, I would have done
5 it gladly. I thought I couldn't. But now I've told you everything I
6 know. I wanted to complete the truth.
7 JUDGE ORIE: That's understood. Well, at the same time you
8 attested to your own statement in which one reads that you did not know
9 who ordered it. So later, indeed, you told us that it was VRS shelling,
10 and even now you told us that you know who ordered it. But yesterday you
11 attested that the whole of your statement was the truth and nothing but
12 the truth, although you knew at that time that at least in this respect
13 the statement was not correct any further because you, meanwhile, had
14 learned who had ordered that shelling. And you were asked whether you
15 would give the same answers if the same questions would be put to you,
16 and you said yes. Although --
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said "mostly." I added the word
18 "mostly." If you will allow me, I said who was it who had done the
19 shelling, but I don't know who issued the order to him. I don't know
20 that to this very day.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Are there any other matters in your statement
22 where you say, "Well, I learned" -- not something in addition, but "I
23 learned something which I denied knowledge of in my statement" or "I
24 learned that what I said in this statement is not accurate"? I am not
25 asking you to add anything, new information you've gained. But what is
1 in your statement, is that accurate?
2 A. Yes, it is accurate.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Why did you gain the impression that you couldn't
4 change anything if -- I may take it that Mr. Lukic told you: "Read
5 carefully, and if there is anything which is not accurate, then tell me."
6 I take it that that's what he did.
7 A. I was not aware of the procedure and the technology. I thought
8 it was too late to do things. I didn't know that. I'm really being
9 honest. I'm not a professional. I thought that I couldn't change a
10 thing. I don't see a reason why I would not ask you to enter that piece
11 of information. I thought it was impossible.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that answer. Judge Fluegge may have
13 one or more questions for you.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Javoric, I have to take you back to an issue
15 we discussed at length yesterday. This is your promotion.
16 You told us yesterday that you had been promoted in December
17 1992. Can you just briefly describe how this promotion was carried out?
18 A. You are asking me administrative things. I'm an officer.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I'm not asking you -- no, no --
20 A. I cannot --
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Stop. You said you were promoted in December
22 1992. Can you explain what your experience -- from your point of view
23 what happened in December 1992 with respect to your promotion? I'm not
24 asking about what other people did. What you observed and experienced.
25 A. I received the paper in April the following year, on the 17th of
1 April if I'm not mistaken. That is when I was informed. Now when the
2 order arrived to the District Staff from the Main Staff, well, that's for
3 personnel services. I'd just receive information. I have nothing to do
4 with any of that, how all of that went.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. This clarifies the matter. That
6 means in December 1992, you were not informed about your promotion at
8 A. I couldn't have been because it is written retroactively.
9 Somebody, and I apologise for this expression, somebody messed up at
10 corps level, these services, lawyers and other people like that.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: I just have one more.
13 A. Thank you, too.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I may just follow-up on the same question.
15 Did you see the date when that document you received on the 17th
16 of March, 1993 was dated? Did you see when it was drafted, the date on
17 when it was drafted?
18 A. On the 17th of April, 1993 from the corps I received an order
19 stating --
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: I know you've received that, and I'm asking you
21 precisely about that order. What was the date of that order that you
23 A. Gentlemen, now you are asking me to remember after all these
24 years what had happened. To be quite frank, do you know how long it's
25 been --
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me --
2 A. -- how many years?
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: You have come here to testify about things that
4 happened many years ago.
5 It was dated the 16th of March, 1993, so you got it the following
6 day. So there was -- nobody messed up.
7 You want it to come on the screen? We can bring it on the
9 A. I think it was the 17th of April, as far as my memory serves me.
10 The 17th of April from the corps, and there is a stamp, a stamp of
11 receipt. If I think back now, there was this red stamp stating that it
12 had been received from the corps, the 17th of April, 1993.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: I am not talking about the date of receipt, I am
14 talking about the drawing of making -- writing out that order.
15 Can we please have it on the screen. What is the reference
17 MR. TRALDI: For the promotion itself, the 65 ter was 31996. And
18 I think it might be P7122.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could we have --
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: No it's P7121.
21 MR. TRALDI: I apologise, Your Honour.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, it says here very nicely
23 the 17th of April, 1993, corps command. The red stamp, just as I said.
24 My memory does serve me well.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, just look at the top of that document. See
1 the 16th of April --
2 A. You asked me. You asked me when I was informed. This is
3 meritorious for me. The higher command did not contact us directly at
4 all, the General Staff. We do not have that kind of communication.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Would you please stop and listen. I haven't asked
6 you when you received it. I have asked you what you know -- what is the
7 date of the order? The date of the order is right at the top of the
8 document there. Can you see that? It's not the 17th; it's the 16th.
9 The day before you received it. You received it the following day on the
10 17th but it was drafted on the 16th. Can you see that?
11 A. I've already said that that is a matter for the administration.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you see the date, yes or no?
13 A. Well --
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Right.
15 A. -- yes, it's written there, the 16th of April.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: You received it the following day according to the
17 stamp down there. So it was just the following day.
18 A. You're wrong. It wasn't the following day. It was registered in
19 the corps on the following day. You see the stamp of the corps here.
20 They wrote this on the 17th of April. I don't really understand this.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: When did you receive it? When did you receive it?
22 A. You're asking me way too much, aren't you? I mean, I don't even
23 know when I received it.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: You know, you've told us that you received it on
25 the 17th.
1 A. On the basis of this --
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. I have --
3 A. I would kindly ask for what I said yesterday to be shown again.
4 The corps placed this stamp here when they received it, and it's at the
5 office there. And when a document arrives, it doesn't have to be handed
6 out straight away.
7 JUDGE ORIE: I have a few follow-up questions in relation to what
8 I earlier touched upon.
9 Yesterday when you were attesting to your statement, you made a
10 few changes. I have difficulties in understanding that, on the one hand
11 side, you say, "I didn't know that I could make any changes, it was too
12 late," and in court you made changes. You may remember that you were
13 asked whether Muslims and Croats did not respond or -- then you said,
14 "No, it was not the Muslims and the Croats but it was some Muslims and
15 some Croats." So you changed your statement there.
16 Now, why do you explain to us that you were not aware that
17 anything could be changed, especially where there is something which was
18 just not the truth anymore because you knew about the shelling of
19 Hambarine? You say, "Well, I didn't know I could change it," and on
20 other matters you did change your statement. That's difficult for us to
22 What then triggered the changes you made when you thought that
23 you could make no changes. Could you explain that?
24 A. Well, I didn't remember President Cehajic and later on I did
25 remember, and things like that. Well, you will allow for the fact that I
1 am 67 years old and my memory doesn't serve me that well.
2 JUDGE ORIE: What then triggered you to make such tiny little
3 changes as Muslim changing to some Muslims; Croats changing into some
4 Croats? We have -- we're trying to understand why on such details you
5 made changes, and whereas on a matter, which may be far more of
6 substance - that is, who shelled Hambarine - that you didn't make any
8 A. May I explain? What you said just now, some details concerning
9 Muslims and Croats, those are not details for me. It was written there
10 mistakenly, perhaps it was intentional, that these were pure units. It
11 was just certain Muslims and certain Croats that refused mobilisation.
12 I can tell you to this day who stayed on until the very end.
13 Badnjevic, Ernest; I told you about him yesterday. He volunteered, went
14 to Omarska, and then, from there, went to the VRS and stayed there until
15 the end of the war. That is very important. The units were not pure.
16 Believe me, that's the way it was until the end.
17 As soon as I read this, I said that for the sake of these people,
18 the Muslims and Croats who were in the army. It is wrong for that to
19 stay on.
20 I remembered Hambarine. I don't see what's bad about that, that
21 I told you that it was Maric.
22 JUDGE ORIE: And when you read about the shelling of Hambarine
23 and when you read, "I don't know who participated in it, I don't know who
24 ordered it," then you didn't think -- "but meanwhile I learned that it
25 was the VRS so I should correct that as well."
1 A. I am saying in all sincerity that I didn't know. But then when I
2 learned it, I said the head of artillery, Lieutenant Maric, and what's
3 wrong with that? There are other details that I can remember.
4 JUDGE ORIE: What is our problem is the following. That when
5 asked about why you didn't change your statement, you said, "Well, I
6 didn't know that it was possible," and carefully looking at what you did
7 is that you made changes. So apparently, or at least there is some
8 potential contradiction, that you knew that you could change your
9 statement, because you did it on some aspects, and at the same time you
10 explain the Hambarine issue by telling us, "Well, I didn't know that I
11 could change my statement," that is a -- that is difficult for us to
12 understand and -- but if it is --
13 A. Maybe it was a slip of the tongue in the way I was expressing
15 JUDGE ORIE: Let's leave it to that.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, yes.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I just briefly refer back to -- it was not
19 yesterday but on the 9th of February, page 31375. You were asked by
20 Mr. Lukic, and I quote:
21 "And if I were to put to you the same questions today, would you
22 substantially answer the same?"
23 And then, indeed, you answered:
24 "Yes, for the most part."
25 Because that was very ambiguous, I asked on the next page:
1 "When you asked if the witness," that was -- I was referring to
2 Mr. Lukic, "if the witness would answer in the same way if the same
3 questions were put to him, he said 'Yes, for the most part.' And what
4 about the other part?"
5 And that was then put to you. And your answer was:
6 "When I said 'for the most part,' I meant that now I would
7 provide much broader and more detailed and more complete explanations and
8 answers than I did before, because I answered questions from my own
9 standpoint as a professional, and I used a lot of terms and maybe jargon
10 that may not be understandable to all."
11 So that was your answer, but no clarification with respect to the
12 issue we just discussed. I just wanted to put that on the record in all
14 JUDGE ORIE: Which is hereby done. If you want to comment on
15 it -- you explain not that "for the most part" meant that inaccuracies
16 you would leave them apart. You just said, "I would give more details."
17 When you said in your statement, "I don't know who shelled Hambarine,"
18 it's not a detail to now know. It's just you now do know, and that's a
19 different answer to the same question.
20 I leave it to that in view of the explanations you have given
22 Mr. Traldi, any further questions for the witness?
23 MR. TRALDI: Just very briefly.
24 Could we have 65 ter 32002.
25 Further Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi:
1 Q. As it comes up, sir, Mr. Lukic asked about the Council for
2 National Defence. Now, the members of it did have the authority to issue
3 orders to the members of the organisations underneath them; right? For
4 instance, Colonel Arsic had the authority to issue orders to subordinate
5 units; right?
6 A. Of the operative part. Operative units.
7 Q. Well -- so this is an order, the 17th of May, 1992, from
8 Colonel Arsic on replenishment and unification of war units, and he says
9 it's issued pursuant to an order by the 5th Corps commander and a
10 conclusion reached at the Council for National Defence that we looked at
11 in connection with ensuring unified command and control. And it's sent
12 to the Serbian TO staff of the municipality of Prijedor.
13 So in the course of implementing an order from his own superior
14 command, the 5th Corps, Colonel Arsic issued an order to subordinate
15 units implementing conclusions reached at that same meeting, the 15th of
16 May, 1992 that Mr. Lukic showed you; right?
17 MR. LUKIC: Maybe -- because I don't have the right to continue.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now I'm confused by this, I really
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, if you have any objection, you may --
21 MR. LUKIC: The document is clear, "based on the order" --
22 JUDGE ORIE: It's not --
23 MR. TRALDI: Can I ask that the witness remove his headphones for
24 a moment.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 Witness, could you take off your earphones.
2 Mr. Traldi.
3 MR. TRALDI: So what I'm illustrating -- what I'd understood
4 Mr. Lukic to be doing was calling into question the implementation of the
5 conclusions reached at that session. What I'm illustrating is that
6 Colonel Arsic not just because the decision was reached at that session
7 but in the course of implementing an order from his own superior command,
8 through his chain of command, which was consistent with that conclusion,
9 issued an order implementing one of the other conclusions reached at that
10 session which I'd discussed with the witness.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
12 MR. LUKIC: Still, this was based on the order. We can mention
13 something else but there was an order --
14 JUDGE ORIE: If it was just based on the order and if the other
15 decision had nothing to do with that --
16 MR. LUKIC: He --
17 JUDGE ORIE: -- it would not have been mentioned. That is -- it
18 seems that we are now arguing rather than that -- if you have any
19 objection against the question that Mr. Traldi put to the witness, you
20 may object to the question but not by saying, "Look, the order is clear,"
21 because for Mr. Traldi apparently - and that's the dispute - you think
22 it's clear, Mr. Traldi interprets it in a different way.
23 Now, Mr. Traldi can ask questions about what happened, but you
24 can't intervene by saying, "Well, the order is clear, so you shouldn't
25 ask this question," unless there is a clear distortion of what the
1 document says. Then the question would be misleading. The question, as
2 phrased, may lead to some argument but is not misleading in itself. And,
3 therefore, if you have any other objection against the question, you may
4 raise it now and then we'll rule on that, already assuming that what you
5 said was an objection to the question. And that's what your role is at
6 this moment, Mr. Lukic.
7 MR. TRALDI: Just if it satisfies Mr. Lukic's concern, I'm
8 certainly not suggesting that the Council for National Defence was
9 issuing an order to Colonel Arsic. He participated in that discussion
10 and issued an order implementing a conclusion that was reached in a
11 discussion he participated in that was consistent with another order he
12 had reached through -- he had received through the chain of command.
13 MR. LUKIC: We do not challenge that --
14 JUDGE ORIE: That's how we understood the question. Do you have
15 any objections against the question, certainly after it being clarified,
16 as Mr. Traldi did?
17 MR. LUKIC: I spent the whole case discussing this body and
18 Crisis Staff, and I know for certain that this body could not order
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. -- you are giving evidence, Mr. Lukic, which --
21 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] ... Stakic case in the
22 judgement of this Tribunal --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic --
24 MR. TRALDI: Mr. Lukic --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I'll stop you there now. You say it's
1 decided by this Tribunal. Is there any adjudicated fact you considered
2 of such importance that you put it forward and you asked us to take
3 judicial notice of that? Most likely not because it is a legal issue,
4 and it's a legal issue which is debatable and therefore not fit for
5 taking judicial notice of it, it not purely being a fact. I'm not aware
6 of any fact related to that that you proposed for taking judicial notice
8 If not, then whatever other Chambers said is not something that
9 this Chamber would look at, and I take it that you are happy that we are
10 not just taking all kind of information from other judgements where it
11 has not been formally introduced in this case.
12 Therefore, the argument that you know it and that other Chambers
13 confirmed it is not something that we should consider at this moment.
14 MR. TRALDI: Just --
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic -- one second, one second.
16 MR. TRALDI: Just to be --
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I already said to you that to the extent
19 we had to understand your observations as an objection that it was
20 denied. And if there is any other objection, not of the kind you raised
21 but one in a technical sense, a serious objection to the question, you
22 may raise it now --
23 MR. LUKIC: I don't have anything.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Otherwise -- you don't have anything else.
25 Then, Mr. Traldi, we'll invite the witness to put his earphones
1 on again.
2 MR. TRALDI: And just again, as we do to be pellucidly clear,
3 what I'm illustrating, what I intend to illustrate, is that as a factual
4 matter one of the conclusions was implemented.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think you explained that.
6 MR. TRALDI:
7 Q. Sir, what Colonel Arsic is doing in this order, pursuant to an
8 order received through his chain of command, is issuing an order
9 implementing the conclusion to put both TO staffs under the unified
10 command of the Prijedor garrison; right?
11 A. No. Should I explain? This shows very nicely that the commander
12 of the Serb staff - I was not the commander of the Serb staff of the TO
13 of Prijedor, rather this one. When I said that decisions were mostly not
14 being carried out, my thinking was right. Commander Arsic says very
15 clearly all paramilitary units that are armed should be placed under the
16 command - should be placed under the command - and they were not. I said
17 that at the session. I've already told you about that, when the colonel
18 was there, when we asked that armed people in Kozarac and Omarska should
19 be placed within establishment and under the command.
20 So what General Arsic ordered here was not carried out by
21 Slobodan Kuruzovic. He was responsible for that. I don't know much
22 about these units. And for me these are not units. Those people who did
23 not serve the army, who did not have uniforms, they were paramilitaries
24 and they were all over the place. I already told you about the
25 Green Berets, some kind of volunteers, too, Serb volunteers, and what
1 they did from all three sides. The command of my staff placed -- was
2 placed under a different command. It seems you weren't listening the
3 other day at all when I was speaking about this in detail.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Witness --
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please, I've already said that.
6 JUDGE ORIE: -- refrain from making such statements.
7 Any further questions, Mr. Traldi?
8 MR. TRALDI:
9 Q. Sir, the Green Berets and -- or the people you refer to as
10 Green Berets and armed people in Kozarac, measures were taken against
11 them. They were attacked. The Serb paramilitary groups, against whom
12 this order says "appropriate legal measures should be taken," no
13 measures -- they were never attacked by the 43rd Brigade, were they?
14 A. Precisely. But they were not attacking the armed forces, whereas
15 the Green Berets were. And the armed forces are within establishment and
16 under the command.
17 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I tender this document.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Document 32002 receives Exhibit number P7122,
20 Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
22 MR. TRALDI: I have no other questions for this witness.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Traldi.
24 Mr. Javoric, this concludes your evidence. I'd like to thank you
25 very much for coming a long way to The Hague and for having answered the
1 questions that were put to you - sometimes even more than that - and
2 questions put to you by the parties, put to you by the Bench, and I wish
3 you a safe return home again. You may follow the usher.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you. Thank you
5 for having allowed me to expand on certain matters.
6 [The witness withdrew]
7 MR. LUKIC: Your Honours --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 MR. LUKIC: -- may I be excused? I have to see the next witness.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Although I wanted to briefly give a statement
11 in private session that will not take more than one minute.
12 Of course you can leave, Mr. Lukic. But it could be that you
13 would be interested what will be said in this one minute and, of course,
14 after that, you are entirely free to leave the courtroom.
15 [Private session]
11 [Open session]
12 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
14 Mr. Lukic, I hope to see you back soon.
15 Meanwhile, is the Defence ready to call its next witness which
16 would be Mr. Davidovic, if I'm well informed?
17 MR. IVETIC: We are, Your Honour. Mr. Nenad Davidovic.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom --
19 oh, it's break time. Yes, yes. It's break time. It's good that there
20 are always some assisting in repairing my mistakes.
21 We take a break and will resume at ten minutes to 11.00.
22 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
23 --- On resuming at 10.53 a.m.
24 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, while we wait for the witness, there is
25 one preliminary matter.
1 There are two associated exhibits to the witness statement of
2 this witness. Both have already been introduced into evidence, including
3 D00676. And the English translation of the version that was introduced
4 into evidence does not have two pages from the B/C/S original. We had
5 advised everyone of that on October the 28th and had uploaded the full
6 translation as 1D17-0229. But when Your Honours made the order two weeks
7 subsequent to that date, it appears that the old translation was the one
8 that was attached and therefore the English translation is not complete.
9 So at this time I would ask Your Honours to please rule to have
10 Madam Registrar replace the English translation with the one that I have
11 just recited and then the two documents will match up.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'll -- in order not to make any mistakes,
13 I'll literally quote you.
14 We are talking about D676, which was admitted on the 10th of
15 November. I do understand that a complete translation has been uploaded
16 under number 1D17-0229. And you are inviting me to instruct Madam
17 Registrar to replace the translation which is there at present by this
18 new one?
19 MR. IVETIC: Perfect, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MR. IVETIC: That's exactly it.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, you are hereby accordingly
23 instructed to replace the existing translation by the one I just referred
25 [The witness entered court]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Davidovic. Mr. Davidovic --
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: -- before you give evidence, the Rules require that
4 you make a solemn declaration of which the text is now handed out to you.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
6 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
7 WITNESS: NENAD DAVIDOVIC
8 [Witness answered through interpreter]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated, Mr. Davidovic.
10 Mr. Davidovic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Ivetic. You find
11 Mr. Ivetic to your left. Mr. Ivetic is a member of the Defence team of
12 Mr. Mladic.
13 Mr. Ivetic, please proceed.
14 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Examination by Mr. Ivetic:
16 Q. Good day, Doctor. Could you please state your full name for the
18 A. I am Nenad Davidovic.
19 MR. IVETIC: I wish to call up in e-court 65 ter number 1D1679.
20 Q. Doctor, I would direct your attention to the left-hand side of
21 the screen in front of you, and I would ask you if you could tell us
22 whose signature appears on the first page of this witness statement?
23 A. This is my signature.
24 MR. IVETIC: If we could now turn to the last page of the
25 document in e-court.
1 Q. Sir, we also see a signature. Can you tell us whose signature is
3 A. Mine.
4 Q. And the date that is recorded on this page, does it accord with
5 your recollection of when you signed this statement?
6 A. I think so.
7 Q. Now, sir, subsequent to signing this statement, did you have a
8 chance to read the same in the Serb language to verify if there are any
9 corrections needed to it?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. I would like to now turn with you to page 4 in both languages,
12 and paragraph 17 of your statement. Sir, what correction did you want to
13 bring to our attention in regard to this paragraph?
14 A. It says here that I attended one meeting. However, it should
15 state that I participated in one debate.
16 Q. Okay. And what about this reference to Exhibit P0404, to what
17 part of the paragraph does this document apply?
18 A. I did not understand your question.
19 Q. Does the document that is listed, P0404, apply to your
20 participation in one debate or to your role in the Crisis Staff?
21 A. About my contribution to the discussion.
22 Q. Okay.
23 MR. IVETIC: Now if we could turn to page 5 in English and page 6
24 in the Serbian.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, could I seek clarification, because it's
1 not entirely clear to me.
2 If you say you participated in one debate, was that in that one
3 meeting you describe; or did you attend more meetings but participated
4 only in one debate? That's not entirely clear to me.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I attended several meetings. I
6 took the floor only once.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 Please proceed.
9 MR. IVETIC: If we could turn to page 5 in the English and page 6
10 in the Serbian and look at paragraph 26.
11 Q. And this is titled as being in relation to the killings in
12 Begici. Sir, what correction do you need to inform us about in relation
13 to this paragraph?
14 A. I personally don't know where Begici is, but I believe it's to do
15 with Vrhpolje. If it has to do with Vrhpolje, then fine. But as for
16 Begici, I really don't know even where it is.
17 Q. Okay. And apart from these corrections that we have gone through
18 now this morning, do you consider the rest of your statement to be
19 accurate as drafted?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. If I were to ask you questions today based on the same topics as
22 in the statement, would your answers to those questions be the same as
23 are recorded in your written statement?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Since you have taken a solemn declaration to tell the truth, does
1 that mean that the answers as contained in your written statement are
2 truthful in nature?
3 A. Yes.
4 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I would tender 1D1679 as the next
5 public exhibit. Again, both of the associated exhibits have already been
6 introduced through other means and therefore are not being sought for
7 admission at this time.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. One of them is a P exhibit; the other one is a
9 D exhibit.
10 Before we decide on the matter, could I again seek clarification.
11 You say you do not know where Begici is. Nevertheless, we find
12 in your statement that you said something about Begici, and you said,
13 "Well, if that's Vrhpolje, then it's okay as far as I'm concerned."
14 First of all, how -- do you have any explanation as how the word
15 "Begici," where you say "I don't know where it is," ended up in your
16 statement at all, which you signed a year ago?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I personally believe that Begici is
18 a hamlet near Vrhpolje. That's what I personally believe.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but you say "I don't know where it is,"
20 although you now say you believe to know where it is. But how you signed
21 a year ago this --
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not that I don't know. I'm
23 not sure.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. That means you have no -- your
25 knowledge is such that you can't be sure. No, but how did --
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I can't.
2 JUDGE ORIE: How did the text in your statement -- I mean, if you
3 don't know for sure where it is, nevertheless you are telling us about
4 what happened there and you signed for that a year ago. Now, I'm
5 wondering what happened that in your statement of one year ago the
6 reference to Begici appears?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is true that there is a
8 reference to Begici, but I don't know where Begici is exactly. I don't
9 know its location, but I believe that it is close to Vrhpolje. That it
10 is a hamlet up there.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Did you mention it during your interview?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that I told the lawyer
13 that I thought that it was there but that I'm not sure.
14 JUDGE ORIE: But did you say "something happened in Begici but I
15 don't know where it is," or was it put to you that something had happened
16 in Begici and you then responded "I don't know exactly or for sure where
17 that is"?
18 Which of the two -- or if there is any other description of what
19 happened, please tell us how it ended up in your statement.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was some killings there. I
21 don't know who was killed and how they died. I was not sure where Begici
22 was. I only heard about that. I was not present. I don't know what
23 happened. But if Begici has to do with Vrhpolje, then Begici is a hamlet
24 close to Vrhpolje.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Now, what do you know personally about what
1 happened? But, again, you've still not answered my question: Who came
2 up with the name "Begici"? Did you mention it or was it -- or were you
3 told that something happened in Begici? How is it that it appears in
4 your statement?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that somebody mentioned
6 that, but I don't know who it was.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. Now what do you know personally about
8 what happened there? You were an eye-witness, you were not an
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was not an eye-witness. I was
11 not in that area.
12 JUDGE ORIE: And where did you learn and how did you learn the
13 details of what you describe in your statement?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, there were rumours about an
15 armed conflict in Vrhpolje, that there was casualties on both sides, and
16 so on and so forth. I was not there. I was not present.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do you know who were killed in Begici?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Do you know how many people were killed?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Rumours had it that 13 Serb
21 soldiers were killed. I don't know how many died on the other side.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Now, rumours tell you that 13 soldiers were killed
23 and this then, as you describe it, was -- you considered this to be
24 obviously a retaliation.
25 Now, what did you know about the 13 soldiers being killed? Were
1 you an eye-witness of that happening?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I was not an eye-witness. But
3 I know that they hailed from the same territory, that they were all
4 neighbours, relatives, friends, but I don't know. I was not there.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Now, you also say in your statement -- you describe
6 in detail what happened to the Muslim that had killed the soldiers. You
7 give details of that. Could you tell us what is the basis of your
8 knowledge for those details, such as having Islamic marks on his clothes?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard that in town. I didn't see
10 that personally.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Now, the same for the copy of the Qur'an next to
12 him. It's also that you heard that?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't see anything myself. I
14 only heard things.
15 JUDGE ORIE: From whom did you hear those details?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In town. There were rumours about
17 a man who had a Qur'an and Islamic insignia and that he killed 13
18 soldiers. I personally was not there. I didn't see it.
19 JUDGE ORIE: And you don't remember the person who told you this?
20 It's just, you said -- well, there were rumours?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a long time ago, 20 years
22 ago. There were rumours. I really can't remember who could it have been
23 who told me that.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for those answers.
25 MR. IVETIC: If I can have one clarification first.
1 JUDGE ORIE: One -- one second.
2 Yes, Judge Moloto.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just to understand the correction you are bringing
4 to paragraph 26, is it your position that instead of saying "killings in
5 Begici" it should read "killings in Vrhpolje"? And that the sentence
6 should read: "The killings in Vrhpolje"?
7 Is that the correction you want us to put on your statement?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. Yes, precisely.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
10 MR. IVETIC: Then I don't have a clarification. That was the one
11 I was going to ask.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you wanted to put a question to the witness to
13 clarify a matter?
14 MR. IVETIC: No, Your Honour has already asked the question I
15 wanted to ask. So it's clarified.
16 I now tender the document as the next exhibit.
17 JUDGE ORIE: I think you tendered it already, and I then --
18 before deciding on it, that I put those questions to the witness. It was
19 not, I think, that you had not tendered yet. But let's check in the
21 MR. IVETIC: No, but it still has not yet been admitted, Your
22 Honours. That's the ...
23 JUDGE ORIE: No, I'm aware of that.
24 Yes. I misread when you said you don't have a clarification.
25 That's clear.
1 Madam Registrar, the number for this document -- there are no
2 objections, Mr. Jeremy?
3 MR. JEREMY: Good morning, Your Honours. No objections.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D01679 receives Exhibit D897, Your
7 JUDGE ORIE: D897 is admitted into evidence.
8 Mr. Davidovic -- I take it that, Mr. Ivetic, you first want to
9 read a short summary.
10 MR. IVETIC: That's correct.
11 JUDGE ORIE: And then you have further questions for the witness?
12 MR. IVETIC: That's correct.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 We'll first listen to a summary of your evidence, Mr. Davidovic,
15 and Mr. Ivetic will then have further questions for you.
16 Please proceed.
17 MR. IVETIC: The witness was born in Sanski Most but completed
18 his dental studies in Belgrade and also a specialisation at the military
19 medical academy in Belgrade. He spent his entire career working in the
20 health centre in Sanski Most. He was mobilised into the 6th Sana Brigade
21 in June 1992 and stayed in the brigade as the chief of medical service.
22 Prior to being so mobilised, he was engaged in the medical service of the
23 Territorial Defence of Sanski Most.
24 In Sanski Most, the Muslim SDA was arming the Muslims and
25 established Green Beret units. One was active in the town itself; other
1 units were formed in Vrhpolje, Trnovo, Hrustovo, and Kamengrad.
2 Serbs believed the genocide that had been perpetrated against
3 them in World War II was going to be repeated. There was almost no
4 family in that area who had not had members killed by the Ustasha in
5 World War II.
6 The members of the Sana Brigade were often engaged in combat and
7 suffered the most losses in the Gradacac area. After combat in Vrhpolje
8 and Hrustovo, the witness was part of an asanacija or sanitisation
9 activity to remove and document human and animal remains killed in
10 combat. An investigative judge went along and the witness believes
11 everything was documented.
12 As regards medical treatment in Sanski Most, no one ever
13 differentiated between patients based on their ethnicity. This was true
14 even within the military medical service.
15 As to specific incidents for Vrhpolje, the witness says that
16 these crimes were committed by locals as retaliation of the killing of 13
17 soldiers from the area who had been killed by a Muslim combatant armed
18 with a machine-gun, with the Qur'an, and wearing Islamic symbols on his
19 clothing. The military commanders were trying to prevent revenge
20 killings, but it was difficult to control the armed men whose children,
21 relatives, and friends had perished.
22 As to Skrljevita, the witness says that those crimes were
23 committed by Dane Kajtez, who was not a member of the brigade, and that
24 he was found guilty of those crimes by a judgement of the Bosnian court.
25 That completes the summary.
1 I would now like to turn to page 3 in both languages.
2 Q. And focus on paragraph 9 of your statement. Here you talk of a
3 book authored by a Muslim which provides details about how the SDA was
4 arming Muslims. First of all, could you tell us anything more about the
5 author of the book? Who was he?
6 A. The author of the book is from Sanski Most. He is a writer. And
7 he described the SDA organisation from the beginning to the end, from the
8 founding meeting at the beginning of September, the Executive Board, the
9 Main Board, people who were in charge of organising and expanding the
10 SDA, how the SDA was armed. First the Green Berets were set up as well
11 as the Patriotic League. In this document, he says that there are 300
12 armed fighters in Vrhpolje. It's their own document. There was one half
13 of our brigade plus the town and its environs.
14 Q. Now, let me ask you to clarify. You say that was half of our
15 brigade. How many soldiers did the 6th Sana Brigade have in April of
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Ivetic, before you ask that question, your
18 previous question has not been answered. Who was the author?
19 MR. IVETIC: I believe at line 13 it says he is a writer and he
20 is from Sanski Most.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic --
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: An author is a writer. Who was "he" is the
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, he is indeed from Sanski Most.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Who was he?
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, we all accept that the author of the
2 book is the one who wrote the book and that in that respect he is a
3 writer. Could we know who it is?
4 Could you tell us who the author of the book was?
5 MR. IVETIC: I apologise.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 Witness, could you tell us who authored the book? What's his
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember as I sit here
10 today. Kljucanin. I don't know.
11 JUDGE ORIE: How did you get hold of the book?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was published only once. It had
13 one edition in Sanski Most. People got hold of it. We made photocopies
14 and then it was banned and never reprinted after that. I have the books.
15 If you want me to, I can bring it with me tomorrow.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. So you have the book but you don't know what
17 the name of the author is?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do. I can't be sure. I
19 believe that his name is Kljucanin. I am not sure. I believe it's
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you know he's from Sanski Most. How do
22 you know that?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that he's from Sanski Most.
24 I am sure of that. Because of the name -- the family name, that is.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You say he bears a family name of a family
1 which is known in Sanski Most and that made you conclude that he's from
2 Sanski Most?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely. Absolutely.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I ask you if you have the book itself or
6 photocopies of the book in your possession?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do have the book.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
9 Please proceed.
10 MR. IVETIC: If we can call up D676. I think we can at least
11 clarify some of that by looking at -- I think it should be page 3 in
12 English and page 3 in B/C/S.
13 Q. Sir, looking at the inside of the book cover, does this assist
14 you as to the author who you have been talking about of this book?
15 A. Here we have the publisher, the editor-in-chief,
16 Zilhad Kljucanin. I don't know whether the author is his brother Nihad.
17 I am not sure. But we'll clarify that. Then you have other people.
18 Mirzet Karabeg was a member of the SDA. Zilhad Kljucanin and
19 Muhamed Lemes [phoen] is the former president of the municipal assembly.
20 Q. If we look down in the area that's boxed off that has information
21 about the book that is entitled "It is a Crime to Forget a Crime:
22 Sanski Most." It indicates Zilhad Kljucanin and a Hazim Akmadzic, first
23 edition, Sanski Most, Sanski Most municipality. Does that -- is that the
24 people that you have been talking about with the last name --
25 A. Yes, yes. These are the people.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: What do you mean by "these are the people"? What
2 kind of people are they?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The people that wrote that.
4 Zilhad Kljucanin, I am sure that he wrote that and that he is a writer.
5 He lived in Sarajevo for a while.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: If you look at the top of the page, you see there
7 an entry, "Editorial board," and then five names appear, one of them
8 Zilhad Kljucanin. It doesn't say anything about him being the writer.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Editor-in-chief. That's what it
10 says. Editor-in-chief, Zilhad Kljucanin.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And two lines below the name appears again as he
12 was a member of the editorial board.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Editorial board, yes.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I don't see anything which indicates who, in
15 fact, was the writer of the book.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You have it towards the end of the
17 page, Zilhad Kljucanin, "It's a Crime to Forget a Crime," and
18 Hazim Akmadzic, Sanski Most. So it's according to that. In my view,
19 that means that they are the authors.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Now we have two authors?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Two authors, yes, yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
23 MR. IVETIC: While we still have this page on the screen, I also
24 note the name of Adil Draganovic as a member of the editorial board.
25 Q. What position did Mr. Draganovic hold in Sanski Most before the
2 A. Adil Draganovic was president of the basic court in Sanski Most.
3 Q. What role or position did Mr. Draganovic have in Sanski Most
4 following the war?
5 A. Following the war, he was president of the basic court yet again.
6 Q. Do you have any knowledge of Mr. Draganovic's activities in
7 Sanski Most following the war?
8 A. When the Serb population left Sanski Most, time was needed for
9 people to start going to their homes in Sanski Most. People did that at
10 their own initiative. All of those who came to Sanski Most first had to
11 report at the basic court at Adil Draganovic's, they had to give
12 statements there. People told me that there were pressures there and
13 that they provided false testimony and whatever.
14 At any rate, you couldn't go into town. You couldn't go to your
15 place of residence. You had to go to Adil, to the court to give a
16 statement. All Serbs who came to visit their property.
17 Q. Now you say people told you about this. Could you tell us a bit
18 more about the source of this information about the activities of
19 Mr. Adil Draganovic in Sanski Most following the war? Who were these
21 A. You mean the ones who went there to him?
22 Q. The source for your information of what was happening that they
23 were being asked to sign statements subject to pressure and providing
24 false testimony and whatever.
25 A. Yes. These were my neighbours, and all the people who went never
1 said, "No, I didn't go to see Adil." Everybody had to go to him.
2 Q. Okay.
3 MR. IVETIC: Now if we could return to D897.
4 Q. Your statement.
5 MR. IVETIC: And page 3 in both languages. And paragraph 11 of
6 the same.
7 Q. In this paragraph, you say that no one differentiated between
8 patients based on their ethnicity. What about wounded enemy soldiers?
9 Did anyone differentiate between them?
10 A. No. Differentiation on the basis of ethnic background? No.
11 Health workers provided medical treatment to everyone, regardless of who
12 it was that had been injured or had a health problem in any other way.
13 All of them received care.
14 Q. Now, as in regards the health workers and medical staff
15 themselves, were there any non-Serbs that remained to work in Sanski Most
16 throughout the war?
17 A. Yes. Dr. Savanda and Dr. Mirzet Halilovic, a surgeon. They
18 worked with us throughout the war.
19 Q. Could you please tell us the ethnicity of these two doctors that
20 you have identified.
21 A. Halilovic was a neighbour of mine. He's a Muslim. And Savanda
22 was a Palestinian, or something like that, married to a woman from
23 Sanski Most who was a nurse.
24 Q. Okay.
25 MR. IVETIC: Now if we could turn to the next page in the
1 statement and look at paragraph 15 of the same.
2 Q. Here, sir, you talk about the Crisis Staff
3 President Nedjeljko Rasula and his command over the TO. First I want to
4 ask you, what was the relationship of this TO vis-à-vis the Army of
5 Republika Srpska?
6 A. The VRS was not in Sanski Most at first when the Crisis Staff was
7 formed. Professor Nedjeljko Rasula did head the Crisis Staff, and he was
8 a man who wanted to have a say in everything and to have the decisive say
9 in everything. He was that kind of person.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, could you lay a foundation for the
11 knowledge on which statements like "he was that kind of person who would
12 have a decisive say in everything"?
13 MR. IVETIC: Sure.
14 Q. Sir, how long prior to the war had you known
15 Mr. Nedjeljko Rasula?
16 A. Well, since high school.
17 Q. What was Mr. Rasula prior to the war?
18 A. A high school teacher in Sanski Most. He taught the Serbian
20 Q. And what was your interaction with him prior to the war? How did
21 you know him? Since you say you knew him since high school, how did you
22 know him since high school? In what capacity?
23 A. Well, I knew him as a teacher, a home teacher. Nothing more than
25 Q. And prior to the war, what type --
1 A. Well, before the war, too. Yes. I studied and then did my
2 specialised training, and then I started working, and he always taught at
3 the high school there.
4 Q. And how would you describe him before the war as to what kind of
5 person he was in terms of the assessment you made earlier today about how
6 he was at the Crisis Staff where you said he was decisive -- wanted to
7 have a say in everything and have a decisive say in everything? How did
8 he compare in the time-period before the war when you knew him?
9 A. He was always that way. He was never a person who was in favour
10 of compromise.
11 Q. Now in relation to the Crisis Staff, did it exist the entire
12 duration of the war in Sanski Most?
13 A. No. The Crisis Staff started to work -- stopped working as soon
14 as the municipal organs were established; the president, the Executive
15 Council, and everything else that was there in the organisation. I think
16 it was sometime in the month of July, but I'm not sure.
17 Q. Now, how would you describe the interactions between Mr. Rasula
18 and the brigade commander, Colonel Basara?
19 A. Brigade commander and president of the Crisis Staff -- or,
20 rather, the president of the municipality, they did co-operate, but there
21 was no love lost between them. There was no love lost between them, but
22 they did co-operate.
23 Q. Now, looking at paragraph 16 --
24 MR. IVETIC: Which you also have on the screen here.
25 Q. -- you mention the SOS, Serbian Defence Forces. What was this
1 formation? Was it a part of the VRS?
2 A. No, no, no. An organised group. The Serb Defence Forces, at
3 first they listened to Rasula and later on I heard that they were
4 renegades, that they did not obey him either, and Colonel Basara insisted
5 that this unit be disbanded and attached to the 6th Sana Brigade. It was
6 difficult but I think that he succeeded in that.
7 Q. Okay. And do you know how long the SOS was in existence in
8 Sanski Most as a separate renegade formation?
9 A. I don't think that went on for a long time.
10 MR. IVETIC: If we could turn to the next page, 5 in the Serbian,
11 and stay here in the English. I'd like to look at paragraph 19.
12 Q. Sir, here you are talking of the collection centres. And when
13 you say in your statement "I know that people were beaten there" in
14 relation to Betonirka, what is your precise knowledge and basis for this?
15 A. I personally came along when a man who was detained in Betonirka
16 was injured and then we sent him to the medical centre to provide medical
17 assistance to him. I went and informed Colonel Anicic, who was head of
18 the Territorial Defence, and I said that that happened, and he said that
19 he would take all measures so that this would never happened again. And
20 later on I did not hear of any other beatings and I did not see any.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please
22 be asked to speak slower. Thank you.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please slow down slightly in speaking,
24 Mr. Davidovic.
25 And just a short follow-up question: Do I understand that you
1 know only of one person that was injured in Betonirka?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I personally know only of one and I
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But you say you personally know only. Do you,
5 perhaps not by personal knowledge, know of others?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
7 JUDGE ORIE: So you would have corrected your statement where it
8 says "I know that the people were beaten there," which suggests that it's
9 not one person was ever once beaten but "the people were beaten there."
10 And now you tell us that you only know from direct knowledge and from
11 indirect knowledge only of one person that has been beaten there.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A person I saw and a person for
13 whom I intervened. That is the only person I saw, personally.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And now what did you learn from others about
15 people being beaten in Betonirka?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I immediately cautioned
17 Colonel Anicic so that he could stop this beating of people, because he
18 was in charge of Territorial Defence, and he promised that he would do
19 his very best so that this would not happen again.
20 JUDGE ORIE: It's still not clear to me. You say you cautioned
21 Colonel Anicic so that he could stop this beating of people, which again
22 suggests that it was not just one person but there had more been beaten.
23 But at the same time, you tell us that you were aware only of one person
24 that had been beaten.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am telling you that I know of one
1 person who I saw personally. I saw what I saw.
2 Now what I did not see, I cannot make any claims if I did not see
3 something. I saw one man who had been beaten up and he was given medical
4 assistance. Now, whether there were other people, that I really don't
6 JUDGE ORIE: First of all, your statement is full of claims on
7 matters you have not seen but you present for a fact. We dealt with that
8 extensively earlier where you said it was only rumours.
9 Now what I'm asking you, is it your evidence that you saw only
10 one person that had been beaten, you reported that, and you did not hear
11 or learn in any other way about others being beaten in Betonirka? Is
12 that how we have to understand your testimony?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know only of one injured person
14 who had been beaten up; the person I saw. As for all the rest, I cannot
15 make any claims.
16 JUDGE ORIE: My question is did you hear, and I'll ask you then
17 in what way, did you hear about other people having been beaten which you
18 may not have seen yourself?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't -- I mean, I really don't
20 know. I really cannot give an answer to that.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Why can't you answer the question whether you heard
22 about other people?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't hear. I mean, had I
24 heard, I certainly would have reacted. I certainly would have reacted.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Well, then, apparently you are in a position to
1 answer the question you did not hear of other people being beaten here,
2 which clarifies --
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not hear. I did not hear.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Which then clarifies what we find in your
5 statement, which suggests otherwise. But we have heard your testimony
7 But, Mr. Ivetic, could you please --
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I just ask for one clarification.
9 When did that happen, the beating of this one man?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Is that question for me?
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, of course. It's a question from me to you.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it was May or June. May or
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Which year?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1992.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. One follow-up question. A short one.
18 You state that a physician was present in collection centres
19 every day. Could you tell us who went to the collection centres every
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A physician went every day. A
22 physician and a nurse. The lady doctor who was in charge of the gym is
23 Dr. Brankica Lazic-Karadzic. And she had the task of going every morning
24 and examining patients, providing therapy to them, and I don't think that
25 this collection centre remained for very long. I think it was disbanded
1 very quickly. But for as long as it was there, a doctor did go.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Now you are talking in your statement about
3 collection centre centres, in the plural. Which collection centre were
4 you referring to earlier?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I knew of Betonirka. I knew of the
6 sports hall, and later on Krings. I was not there, but I heard that it
7 was Krings.
8 JUDGE ORIE: And the same doctor went to all these three
9 correction centres?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. To the hall. A doctor
11 went to the hall.
12 JUDGE ORIE: And who went to Betonirka on a daily basis?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A medical technician went to
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's not a physician, is it?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
17 JUDGE ORIE: In your statement --
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A person with a secondary school
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. In your statement, we read:
21 "A physician was present in collection centres," the plural,
22 "every day."
23 So that's not true, if I understand you well. Certainly not for
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Maybe that is wrongly stated, "in
1 all centres," but at the sports hall there was a physician every day.
2 And in Betonirka, there was a medical technician.
3 JUDGE ORIE: And for the third one?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know about that. I was
5 already at the brigade. I was chief of medical corps there and I stayed
6 there until the end of the war.
7 JUDGE ORIE: One second. So, therefore, you have no knowledge
8 about any medical assistance provided in Krings?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, you have used already 30 minutes. But
11 if you have one or two more questions for the witness, and preferably
12 about facts he has knowledge about, please proceed.
13 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, our proofing statement had asked for
14 45 minutes for this witness.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, yes. You've asked for more time. But what I --
16 the remainder of what I said still applies.
17 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
18 Q. Now, sir, did any non-Serbs stay in Sanski Most for the duration
19 of the war?
20 A. Yes. In my assessment, about 3.000 loyal Muslims remained in
21 Sanski Most throughout the war.
22 Q. Did the VRS or the Sanski Most authorities undertake any hostile
23 actions against these 3.000 loyal Muslims who remained in Sanski Most?
24 A. I think the answer is no.
25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We did not understand the
1 next sentence.
2 MR. IVETIC:
3 Q. Could you repeat the last part of your answer so that the
4 interpreters could interpret.
5 A. They protected the population as much as they could.
6 Q. Now, did there come a time when somebody else, apart from the VRS
7 or the Sanski Most authorities, undertook hostile action or mistreated
8 these Muslims who had remained loyal and who had stayed in Sanski Most?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Could you tell us your knowledge of when that happened.
11 A. That happened in 1995, when Arkan and his units arrived in
12 Sanski Most. He mistreated the Muslim population and the Serb
13 population. He carried out lootings in town. He tied people to trees in
14 parks. He shaved the hair off their heads. He sent people to the front
15 line whimsically. He went to these Muslim settlements looting. He could
16 do this because our units were all out defending the town, so no Serb,
17 Croat, or Muslim was protected from Arkan.
18 From us at the medical centre, he took an ambulance for two
19 reclining patients, and he looted there.
20 Q. Did he have permission to take the ambulance from the medical
21 centre that you've just mentioned?
22 A. No, he did not have permission and he didn't ask anyone for
23 permission. He did that on his own.
24 Q. Now my last area of questioning.
25 MR. IVETIC: On page 5 in English and page 6 in the Serb of your
1 statement, and paragraph 24 of the same.
2 Q. Here you talk about the fact that not many Serbs live in
3 Sanski Most today. Can you tell us the circumstances of how and when
4 Serbs left Sanski Most during the war?
5 A. Serbs left Sanski Most during one afternoon and half of the
6 night. The entire population left, whoever was able to leave, because BH
7 units assaulted Sanski Most.
8 Before that, Sanski Most was bombed. It was shelled. And I
9 think -- I think that they came from the NATO Rapid Reaction Force. It
10 wasn't the Muslims that were doing the bombing and shelling. We fled
11 during the afternoon and night. Only old and frail people stayed in
12 Sanski Most, and most of them were killed then.
13 There was a centre, a collection centre, near the cinema in
14 Sanski Most where Serbs had been detained, and those who got out
15 confirmed that. However, after the war, only a few hundred Serbs stayed
16 in Sanski Most. And out of that figure, there aren't any children or
17 young people. Wahhabis appeared in Sanski Most. They married local
18 girls, local Muslim girls, and they live in Sanski Most. Quite a few of
19 them do.
20 Otherwise, the economic situation is bad in Sanski Most. Nothing
21 is working in Sanski Most. Absolutely nothing.
22 Q. If I could back up and have just one final question, sir. You
23 indicated that you think that the shells that were bombing Sanski Most
24 when the Serbs were leaving came from the NATO Rapid Reaction Force. Can
25 you please tell us the bases for your belief that it was these forces
1 which were shelling Sanski Most?
2 JUDGE ORIE: And perhaps before doing so to tell us what day this
4 MR. IVETIC: Yeah.
5 JUDGE ORIE: That's -- could you first give the day? You said in
6 the afternoon. So in a very short period of time the Serbs left.
7 Could -- do you remember what day that was?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Two days after Dayton. It was a
9 Tuesday. I think it was the 10th or 12th. The 10th, must have been the
10 10th. The 10th, must have been the 10th.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Of what month?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] October. Month of October.
13 JUDGE ORIE: And the year?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1995.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, what makes you remember that this was two
16 days after Dayton?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I know that Sanski Most and
18 Mrkonjic are the two towns that fell after Dayton. That the cease-fire
19 had been signed, and two days after that Sanski Most and Mrkonjic Grad
20 fell. That that is how I remember. And I know it was a Tuesday because
21 I had left my native town and that remains deeply etched in my memory.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Dayton, if you refer to Dayton, you are referring to
23 the Dayton Accord to be concluded?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it was some cease-fire that
25 had been signed. Cease-fire. And after that -- now, was it Dayton or
1 was it something else? Anyway, something had been signed. And after
2 that, only two towns fell; that is, Sanski Most and Mrkonjic Grad.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Well, at least we have now a time-frame.
4 Mr. Ivetic, any further questions in relation to --
5 MR. IVETIC: Yes, the original question I'd asked, what was the
6 bases for his belief that the NATO Rapid Reaction Forces were the ones
7 that had shelled Sanski Most.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that it was them because
10 when a bomb is thrown by the Muslim army, we see the moment when it's
11 fired and when it hits its target. However, the bombs that fell over
12 Sanski Most on that day, those shells, we did not hear when they were
13 fired. We only heard them when they hit their targets. That's why I
14 believe that they did it. This is very indicative.
15 In town we would hear if a shell was fired from a 5-kilometre or
16 a 10-kilometre distance, but on that occasion we did not hear that moment
17 and that was not normal. That's why I think it was them.
18 MR. IVETIC:
19 Q. Thank you, sir. That answers all my questions. I thank you on
20 behalf of General Mladic and the rest of the team for answering my
22 MR. IVETIC: I also see we are at the time for the break, Your
23 Honours. But that ends my direct.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Before we take a break, Judge Fluegge has one
25 follow-up question, and I may have one or two as well.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: How do you know that it was NATO Rapid Reaction
2 Force, Mr. Davidovic?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was nobody else there. If a
4 shell was fired from somewhere around Kljuc, we heard that. If, on the
5 other hand, it came from somewhere on the Adriatic we couldn't hear that,
6 and there was no other forces deployed along the Adriatic. I believe
7 that's clear.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I put this question to you because the Defence
9 has reported to us that you have referred to another unit during the
10 proofing before you entered the courtroom. We see in a note we received
11 from the Defence that it was UNPROFOR Rapid Reaction Forces. What do you
12 exactly know about it? UNPROFOR or NATO?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wouldn't know. I wouldn't know
14 which unit. But it was none of our units; Muslim, Croat, or Serbs. It
15 was either UNPROFOR or rapid reaction forces. One or the other. I don't
16 know for a fact.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The problem is that you state something which you
18 then later say you don't know. That's it.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I would like to ask you a few questions
20 about paragraph 31 of your statement.
21 Could it be shown to the witness. And that's the next page in
22 B/C/S. Yes.
23 A few questions in relation to the killings that took place in
24 Skrljevita. First of all, who was killed there?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Skrljevita is a village which was
1 inhabited mostly by Croats. 99 per cent of the population were Croats.
2 JUDGE ORIE: No, my question was who was killed there. How many
3 persons were killed, who were they, how were they killed?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know any details. I know
5 there were rumours about Dane Kajtez, who was not a member of the brigade
6 and his uncle was the brigade commander, that he was behind that. Croats
7 were those who were killed.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you there. Where your statement says:
9 "I know they were committed by Danilusko Kajtez, also known as Dane
10 Chetnik," are you explaining now that that is what you learned through
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That man was tried and found guilty
13 and he's serving a prison sentence for those murders.
14 JUDGE ORIE: That's not what I'm asking you at this moment.
15 Unless you want to say that you learned about him being the perpetrator
16 only when he was tried. And, by the way, you said a few lines ago that
17 you learned that by rumours, and I'm asking you now -- let me just see.
18 "I know that there were rumours about Dane Kajtez."
19 How do you know that he was the one who committed those murders?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The town was rife with rumours
21 about that. Everybody spoke about that.
22 JUDGE ORIE: That's what I asked you. You say you knew it
23 through rumours.
24 Now, you say he was never a member of the 6th Sana Brigade. How
25 do you know that?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because I was a member of that
2 brigade. I did not see him in a single unit, in a single company, in a
3 single battalion, nowhere on any of the front lines. I didn't see him.
4 If he had been a member, I'm sure that our paths would have crossed
5 during the three or four years of war.
6 JUDGE ORIE: So you say, "Since I did not see him over those
7 years," which you would expect would have happened if he would have been
8 a member of the 6th Sana Brigade, you concluded that he never was a
9 member of the 6th Sana Brigade; is that well understood?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that I am sure that he was
11 not a member of the 6th Sana Brigade.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Then I want to know how you know that for sure.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is impossible that I did not
14 come across him anywhere during the three or four years. I inspected all
15 of the battalions when they lined up before going on a front line. I
16 attended all those occasions, and I never saw him. I didn't see him on
17 any of the front lines in any of the lineups. Territorially, he would
18 have been a member of the 3rd Battalion but he was never with them. He
19 never was employed -- deployed with them.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Just theoretically, let's just assume that he
21 would have been a member for two weeks in a unit which you did not visit
22 during those two weeks. Your explanation as how you knew for sure that
23 he never was doesn't apply any further, does it?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You are right, on the one hand;
25 however, on the other hand, you are not right.
1 If I, for example, was not on the front line on one occasion, and
2 he was there on that occasion, it is impossible that our paths did not
3 cross for four years. It is impossible that our paths would have never
4 crossed. If I remember the lists of the brigade members correctly, I did
5 not see his name on any of those lists.
6 JUDGE ORIE: That's understood.
7 He was found guilty, you said, by a final judgement of the court.
8 Which court?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The BiH court.
10 JUDGE ORIE: When was that judgement delivered?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Four, five years ago.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Well after the war, if I understand you well?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, after the war.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And he's serving a sentence now, if I do
15 understand you well?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: How do you that, that last -- that he's now in
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard from people from
20 Sanski Most. The brigade commander is his uncle, and he told them that
21 he was serving a sentence in Foca -- actually, his uncle told me that.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yeah. That's a clear source of knowledge.
23 You'll be cross-examined after the break. But I think that
24 Judge Moloto -- perhaps I should have taken the break already, but
25 Judge Moloto has just one question.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just one question.
2 Do you know whether he was brought to justice by the military
3 authorities immediately after or during the war?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that he was remanded in
5 custody already during the war, and then the civilian authorities or,
6 rather, civilian courts tried him and found him guilty after the war, and
7 that he was investigated and he was remanded in custody by a military
8 authority or a military court during the war when that happened.
9 JUDGE ORIE: And one very short question: Do you remember for
10 how long he was then remanded during the war by the military court?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wouldn't know exactly, although
12 my cousin was a military court judge. Still, I don't know. I don't know
13 how much time he spent in custody.
14 JUDGE ORIE: We take a break and will resume at half past 12.00.
15 You may follow the usher.
16 [The witness stands down]
17 --- Recess taken at 12.09 p.m.
18 --- On resuming at 12.31 p.m.
19 JUDGE ORIE: While we are waiting for the witness to be escorted
20 into the courtroom, just in order to avoid whatever misunderstanding.
21 The Judges have put quite a lot of questions to the witness. Mainly,
22 they were aimed at a better understanding of the witness's testimony;
23 that is, whether he speaks from his own knowledge or whether it's -- he
24 is relying on other sources rather than that we want to revisit the
25 substance matter which is in the statement. So there may not be a -- of
1 course, I leave it to the parties, but -- Mr. Ivetic, or Mr. Jeremy, we
2 are not saying -- not suggesting that you should go into the substance of
3 all what the witness said. Where we asked questions where we were mainly
4 focusing on what is the source of knowledge of the witness, and not
5 necessarily that we are primarily interested in the substance and the
6 truth of what he may have heard by rumours or from other sources.
7 [The witness takes the stand]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Davidovic, you will now be cross-examined by
9 Mr. Jeremy. You find Mr. Jeremy to your right. Mr. Jeremy is counsel
10 for the Prosecution.
11 Mr. Jeremy.
12 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.
13 Cross-examination by Mr. Jeremy:
14 Q. And good afternoon, Mr. Davidovic.
15 A. Good afternoon.
16 Q. Now, in your statement in paragraph 13, you indicate that during
17 the war you spent almost the -- almost all the time in the field, and you
18 indicate you stayed the longest in the Gradacac war theater.
19 Now during 1992, it's correct, is it not, that the times that you
20 were in Gradacac were in August and September; yes?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And you were also in Bosanski Brod in September; correct?
23 A. I believe so.
24 Q. And you were again in Gradacac in March 1993; correct?
25 A. Yes. But I spent most of the time in Gradacac.
1 Q. Thank you. Now you say in your statement that in Gradacac you
2 would have ten dead on average per shift.
3 MR. JEREMY: That's paragraph 14.
4 Q. Now, did you keep a record of these numbers of dead persons,
5 numbers of wounded persons during the time you were in those theatres?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. I'd like to move topic now and discuss your attendance at
8 Crisis Staff meetings, which you refer to in paragraph 15 to 18 of your
9 statement and which you've mentioned already today.
10 Now, during the war period, how many Crisis Staff meetings do you
11 estimate that you attended? Just approximately.
12 A. I wouldn't be able to give you the exact number. I would say
13 approximately five, six times, and I was in charge of the medical service
15 Q. Five or six times. Now, I'd like to take a look at the
16 Crisis Staff meeting that you refer to in your statement in paragraph 17.
17 MR. JEREMY: Could we please see P404 on our screens.
18 Q. So firstly, you recognise this document, sir. It's the minutes
19 of the Crisis Staff meeting you attended on the 30th of May, 1992;
21 A. Yes, I recognise this.
22 Q. Now, we see that there is a list of 12 persons. Number one is a
23 reference to Nedjeljko Rasula, who you mention in your statement and
24 you've mentioned today. We read that he:
25 "Leads and organises the work of the Crisis Staff and
1 co-ordinates and harmonises the work of our Crisis Staff with the
2 Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of the Krajina?"
3 Further down, we see number 9, Nenad Davidovic, in charge of
4 municipal medical services. So that's obviously a reference to yourself;
6 A. Yes, yes.
7 Q. Now, we see that below this list of names --
8 MR. JEREMY: And could we go to the second page in the B/C/S,
9 please. Or, sorry, the third page.
10 Q. We see that there are two points circled; number 1 and number 2.
11 Focusing on number 2, we see that there is a reference to:
12 "A long-term solution is to be found for the problem of refugees
13 from the Mahala area as well as the Muslims and Croats who are not loyal
14 to the constitution and the laws of the Serbian Republic of
15 Bosnia-Herzegovina ..."
16 The sentence goes on. I won't read it.
17 The next sentence reads:
18 "Also make contact with the leadership of the Autonomous Region
19 of Krajina regarding implementation of the idea on resettlement of the
21 So that role would primarily have fallen to Nedjeljko Rasula as
22 did the principal liaison between the Crisis Staff in Sanski Most and the
23 Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina; correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now you would keep a record of the Crisis Staff meetings that you
1 attended; yes?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You would keep a record of those meetings in your diary; correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now, I'd like to take a look at your diary from this period.
6 MR. JEREMY: Could we please see 65 ter 19777.
7 Q. So referring you to the left side of the screen, sir, we see the
8 front page of a document that states: "Diary of Dr. Davidovic, Nenad,
9 member of the Sanski Most SDS Crisis Staff."
10 A. I believe that this page is not mine. I didn't type anything on
11 it. If it says Nenad Davidovic, a member of the SDS Crisis Staff, I have
12 to tell you that I was never an SDS member.
13 Q. Well, we'll look at a few entries in this diary, sir.
14 MR. JEREMY: Could we please go to page 24 of the diary, please.
15 Q. And what I'm going to, sir, is the record -- the notes of the
16 Crisis Staff meeting that we have just looked at.
17 MR. JEREMY: In fact, it's page 25, please.
18 Q. Okay. So we see here the 30th of May, 1992. And we see a
19 reference to KS at the top of the page. KS, what does that indicate,
21 A. I believe it indicates the Crisis Staff.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, in view of one of the previous
23 answer, could we first verify that this is what -- this is the witness's
24 diary? Because he earlier said something about the cover page.
25 MR. JEREMY: Yes, I -- yes, Your Honour, I was trying to do that.
1 Q. But, sir, do you -- I can ask you now, do you recognise your
2 handwriting that we see here of this record of the Crisis Staff that we
3 just looked at?
4 A. Yes, I do recognise it, but the first page is not mine. The
5 first page that you showed me before is not mine. Somebody added it to
6 the document, somebody else typed on that page, erroneously I must say,
7 but the rest is mine.
8 Q. Thank you. That's understood.
9 Now, we see at the bottom of this page, we see a reference to
10 "President should work on long-term issues of the Muslims and Croats in
11 the territory of the municipal," and that's a reference to Rasula. It's
12 the -- that -- it's the same reference that we saw in the --
13 A. Yes, yes.
14 Q. -- minutes we just looked at?
15 A. Yes, yes.
16 MR. JEREMY: And could we go to the next page, please.
17 Q. Sir, here we see the list of the persons appointed as members of
18 the Crisis Staff, and we see number 8, Nenad, medical corps. That's a
19 reference to you; correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 MR. JEREMY: Could we go back to the previous page, please, in
22 each language.
23 Q. Now, sir, drawing your attention again to the bottom of the page
24 where we -- I've already read, that the "President should work on the
25 long-term issues of the Muslims and Croats in the territory of the
1 municipality," now my question is this: The basic position of the Serb
2 authorities in Sanski Most at this time was that those persons who were
3 considered not loyal to the Serbian authorities were to be expelled
4 together with their families; right?
5 A. The unloyal ones, yes. But the loyal ones should be left and
7 Q. And by "unloyal ones," could you explain what exactly you mean?
8 A. Well, during the referendum when leaving Yugoslavia, there was a
9 split among the peoples, the Serbs, Croats, and Muslims, and that's where
10 it all started. All of it started from there. There were people,
11 Muslims, who voted in our referendum, the Serb referendum, for staying in
12 Yugoslavia. They came dressed in their best clothes, they came to the
13 cinema, and they voted publicly to stay on in Yugoslavia. However, we
14 were outvoted. People who were in favour of staying in Yugoslavia turned
15 out to be loyal and they did not organise themselves and arm themselves.
16 For the most part, it was the SDA that led the Muslim people,
17 organised them, made their numbers larger, equipped units with weaponry
18 while establishing them. Already at the outset when the conflict
19 started, people themselves asked to leave. They felt unsafe, they were
20 afraid of war, fighting, death.
21 Q. So --
22 A. Very well.
23 Q. -- if I understand correctly, those persons who voted to stay in,
24 those Muslims -- those non-Serbs who voted to stay in Yugoslavia you
25 considered to be loyal, and those who did not you considered to be
1 unloyal and -- is that correct?
2 A. Mostly, yes. Mostly.
3 Q. And it was those unloyal persons who the Serb authorities in
4 Sanski Most intended to expel from Sanski Most; correct?
5 A. Some left on their own, and some left sort of out of fear from
6 fighting. People who had relatives went out voluntarily and --
7 Q. Sir --
8 A. -- already in the very beginning, the place got pretty empty.
9 Q. -- I'm not asking you about all the reasons why the people left.
10 I'm asking you about the intention of the Serbian authorities and whether
11 it was their intention to expel those non-Serbs who did not vote to stay
12 in Yugoslavia.
13 A. I think that that's the way it was.
14 Q. And --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jeremy.
16 Before we continue, I'd like to seek clarification, which is:
17 Witness, the following was put to you, whether you consider to be unloyal
18 those persons who voted to stay in -- those non-Serbs who voted to stay
19 in Yugoslavia you considered to be loyal, and those who did not you
20 considered to be unloyal. Your answer was "mostly." What is not correct
21 in that description? Where do you make any reservation?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mostly means that there were people
23 in favour of leaving Yugoslavia but were still loyal, who accepted the
24 new authorities in Sanski Most and who did not take part in arming and
25 the establishment of units of the SDA. There were people like that, too,
1 but at the referendum they voted in favour of leaving Yugoslavia.
2 However, they did not side with the radicals. They did not join SDA
3 units. It wasn't a massive thing, but there were people like that, too.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
5 Please proceed, Mr. Jeremy.
6 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.
7 Q. In connection with this, let's take a look at another page in
8 your diary.
9 MR. JEREMY: Can we please go to page 13.
10 Q. And while we're getting there, I can tell you that there is no
11 date connected to this particular entry, but it appears between a dated
12 entry on the 21st of May and another entry -- a dated entry on the 25th.
13 So it's -- the assumption is this date -- this entry is dated between
14 that period.
15 So we see that there is a meeting. We see the heading:
16 "Disarming the population." And there are a few hyphenated points. If I
17 go down to the -- refer you to the fifth one, we read:
18 "- everyone resisting Serbian authorities will be expelled
19 together with their families."
20 Now, this is a reference to the non-Serb population in
21 Sanski Most; correct?
22 MR. IVETIC: Objection. If he's going to read it, he should read
23 the entirety of the submission for --
24 THE WITNESS: "Da." [No interpretation]
25 MR. IVETIC: -- context because the next section also deals with
1 the same topic.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jeremy, I think you can read it item by item.
3 But if you would consider it better, Mr. Jeremy, you may follow the
4 suggestion and not leave it to Mr. Ivetic to deal with the matter in
5 re-examination. I leave it to you.
6 Therefore, the objection is denied but you certainly will give it
7 some thought.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And I would put on the record that the witness
9 answered the question by saying "da" which was not interpreted and didn't
10 appear in the transcript.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Which will be verified through the audio, of course.
12 Mr. Ivetic, I don't know whether you heard it as well or whether
13 you have any trouble --
14 MR. IVETIC: He did. It was in the middle of what I was saying,
15 so I don't know whether he was saying "da" to the question or to what I
16 was saying, so I don't think --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You agree that he said "da" but you still have
18 to interpret what that means in this context.
19 MR. IVETIC: Correct.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
21 Then can I also -- would I then also -- could I conclude that the
22 parties have no -- that the "da" does not appear on the transcript, that
23 the parties are not divided on that matter, that the witness say "da"?
24 MR. JEREMY: I heard the witness say "da" as well.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If everyone does, then the parties can --
1 apart from what it means, agree that the witness said "da"?
2 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
4 MR. JEREMY:
5 Q. And, sir, just -- I would also draw your attention to the bullet
6 below, the point below, which states that:
7 "- all extremists will be expelled from the municipality, while
8 the authorities guarantee safety to all loyal citizens."
9 And I think that concurs with the point that you made in relation
10 to the previous entry; correct?
11 A. Well, for the most part, it was the loyal population that was
12 given protection.
13 As for extremists, no. No guarantees to them. Extremists were
14 those who were organising and arming the people, the Muslim people.
15 Q. And it's correct, is it not, that regardless of your definition
16 of extremists, then their families were also no longer welcome in
17 Sanski Most and they were also to be expelled; correct?
18 A. Well, for the most part. For the most part.
19 Q. And looking at this entry now, do you recall whether it was
20 yourself referring to the expelling of persons resisting Serbian
21 authorities with their families, or was it somebody else at this
22 particular meeting?
23 A. I was not in charge of that area, so I was not involved. I was
24 in charge of organising medical services.
25 Q. It was Nedjeljko Rasula who was in charge of that area; correct?
1 A. Mostly Nedjeljko. And there were people who assessed the
2 security situation in the municipality, who were in charge of that, and
3 who had information.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I may just find some clarity, please.
5 Mr. Davidovic, the heading of this little topic is "Meeting!" Is
6 it correct to assume that these points are decisions made by that
7 meeting? Decisions taken in the meeting by the people who were in the
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Proposals. Proposals for
10 decisions. And then decisions were made in a narrower circle, the
11 president and --
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: And just to clarify an answer you gave earlier.
13 When Mr. Jeremy asked you:
14 "Everyone resisting Serbian authorities will be expelled together
15 with their families."
16 Somewhere you said:
18 Were you responding to that point?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't understand you.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Let me ask you the question.
21 Is it one of the proposals of the meeting that everyone resisting
22 Serbian authorities would be expelled together with their families?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And I have one follow-up question in this
25 respect as well.
1 In that line, reference is made to "everyone resisting Serbian
2 authorities." Now, in the line after that, reference is made to "all
3 extremists" that will be expelled. Now, what's the difference between
4 someone resisting Serbian authorities and an extremist? When are you an
5 extremist, when are you someone who resists Serbian authorities?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that extremists are those
7 who are prepared to fight. Armed combat extremists. Not those who are
8 unloyal. Those who are unloyal do not obey. So that's the difference.
9 So extremists are those who are prepared for an armed fight.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So extremists are those who are willing or
11 even already taking up arms, whereas everyone resisting Serbian
12 authorities are just those who disagree with the Serb rule which applied
13 at that point in time. Is that well understood?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well understood. You understood it
16 JUDGE ORIE: Why would those who opposed Serbian rule to be
17 expelled? Isn't it a democratic right to be active, to change the laws
18 and ...
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it was almost a state of war.
20 Almost a state of war. And in -- and one could not really speak about a
21 democracy. One could not. For the most part, I think that people who
22 put up armed resistance were the ones that were targeted. Armed
23 resistance. Now, whether they agreed with the authorities or not, that
24 is a different matter. I don't think --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Well, this squarely contradicts your previous
2 I asked you what is the difference between those resisting and
3 extremists. You said extremists are those who are willing to take up
4 arms. Others may have been unhappy with the situation but are not within
5 that category. My question therefore is: If you have advocated to
6 stay -- to leave Yugoslavia and therefore not being in favour of the new
7 Serb rule without willing to take up arms, if that category -- my
8 question was why that category should be expelled together with their
9 families, where they just politically disagreed with the present
10 situation at that time?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I personally would not have
12 expelled them. I personally. If they do not agree politically. Now,
13 who made this decision to expel, that's a different matter. But
14 extremists, I'd expel them too.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But --
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those who --
17 JUDGE ORIE: -- it's clear that in this entry in your diary,
18 apparently it was proposed that those who were not willing to take up
19 arms but disagreed should be expelled as well, together with their
20 families. Apart from your personal opinion about the matter, but ...
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, but this was the position.
22 The position was that they should be expelled, too.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.
24 Please proceed, Mr. Jeremy.
25 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.
1 Q. Sir, I'd like to look at another entry in your diary a couple of
2 days later.
3 MR. JEREMY: Could we please go to page 15.
4 Q. Again, it's undated but it -- I can tell you it appears before --
5 immediately before an entry on the 23rd of May, 1992. Here we see the
6 Croat -- the heading is Crisis Staff meeting. We see number 1,
7 "Conclusion," and a number of -- a list of points below that.
8 So, sir, to be clear, these are -- the points below "Conclusion,"
9 these are the conclusions that were adopted by the Crisis Staff at this
10 particular meeting; correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Now, halfway down the list of those conclusions that were adopted
13 at this meeting, we see a reference to Colonel Basara, decree, calling
14 them to hand in their weapons.
15 So just to be clear, this is a reference to the Colonel Basara
16 who was a member of the 6th Sana Brigade in Sanski Most; correct?
17 A. The commander of the 6th Sana Brigade.
18 Q. And where we see "calling them to hand in their weapons," the
19 "them" refers to Muslims and Croats in Sanski Most; correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Serbs in Sanski Most were not asked to hand in their weapons,
22 were they?
23 A. All of those who had no papers and weapons, they were duty-bound
24 to hand over weapons irrespective of whether they were Serb, Croat, or
25 Muslim. So it has to do with illegal weapons. Muslims did not have
1 their weapons taken away from them either if they had the right documents
2 for these weapons.
3 Q. So provided Croats and Muslims in Sanski Most had the correct
4 documentation, then it's your position that they could retain their
5 weapons throughout the war period; is that well understood?
6 A. You understood that well.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Another clarification.
8 Mr. Davidovic, when Mr. Jeremy asked you about that bullet point
9 where Colonel Basara's name appears and asked you what the "them"
10 referred to, you agreed that it referred to the Croats and the Muslims.
11 Now, I ask you about the next bullet point under that. Sir, it
12 says: "Expelled from these areas forever." Is it still the Muslims and
13 the Croats who are to be expelled forever? Is it the same "them" that
14 were in the upper bullet?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't see that here on this paper
16 that is in front of me in the Serbian language.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues]...
18 Colonel Basara's bullet point.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just a moment. I wouldn't know who
20 this pertains to.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could it be it pertains perhaps to the people who
22 resisted the Serbian authorities and those who were extremists?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It might be that it's them.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
25 Yes, Mr. Jeremy.
1 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.
2 Q. Now, sir, these references to disarming, expulsion, and later in
3 this list of items we see a reference to certificates to leave, these --
4 this reflects the planning for what followed in the weeks and months in
5 Sanski Most; correct?
6 A. I didn't understand you. Do repeat.
7 Q. Yes. Firstly perhaps I'll just draw your attention to the fact
8 that the third point up from the bottom refers to certificates to leave
9 AR, autonomous region. I take this to refer to the Autonomous Region of
10 Krajina; correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And my question was that this -- this reference to disarming,
13 decrees to persons to hand in their weapons, from being expelled from
14 these areas forever, to certificates to leave, this reflects the planning
15 that was going on in the Crisis Staff for what would follow in the
16 following weeks and months in Sanski Most; correct?
17 A. I could not assert that. I don't see how I would formulate that.
18 I don't know whether it was organised -- I mean, what you are saying is
20 Q. Well, sir, we see that you are involved in these meetings where
21 plans are being made to disarm people, to expel people, certificates to
22 leave are being discussed. So -- I mean, that's not simply abstract
23 planning on a hypothetical basis. That's planning for what would -- for
24 what you intended to follow in Sanski Most and for what, indeed, did
25 follow in the following months; correct?
1 A. I wouldn't know. I wouldn't know about that.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I may ask the questions, then.
3 Were people subsequently disarmed after these decisions were
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, for most part, yes, people
6 did surrender their weapons.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: And were these people expelled after these
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know about that. I know
10 they were disarmed, and what happened then I don't know.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
12 Mr. Jeremy.
13 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.
14 Q. Now, sir, earlier today I asked you how many -- or you were asked
15 how many Crisis Staff meetings you -- you attended. I asked you the
16 question and you indicated five or six. Now, this diary is -- the
17 entries are from the 5th of May, 1992 to the 3rd of March, 1993. And
18 even for that period, which is less than a year, there are over 30
19 entries that indicate that the entry relates to a meeting of the
20 Crisis Staff. Does that reflect your recollection that, in fact, you
21 attended five times as many Crisis Staff meetings in less than a year?
22 A. I cannot claim that it was five times. Perhaps it's a bit more
23 than that. I don't think it was 30. Maybe the Territorial Defence Staff
24 meetings, something like that. But Crisis Staff, no. Not that many.
25 That's for sure.
1 Q. All right. Well, I don't propose to go through each of those 30
2 entries now. Let's go to another entry, please.
3 MR. JEREMY: Could we please look at page 18.
4 Q. And this is another Crisis Staff meeting on the 25th of May,
5 1992. So, sir, we see the heading -- we see the date, 25th of May, 1992.
6 We see Crisis Staff. We see a reference to protection of important
7 buildings - done. Number two, Crisis Staff constant session. We see a
8 reference to organise two prisons, and below that the names Papric and
9 Krunic. Now, Papric is a reference to Mladen Papric; correct?
10 A. I think it's him.
11 Q. And he was responsible for the -- for Betonirka; correct?
12 A. I think he was.
13 Q. And Krunic is a reference to Milorad Krunic; correct?
14 A. I think so.
15 Q. And he was responsible for the detention facility at Hasan Kikic
16 school; correct?
17 A. That I wouldn't know.
18 Q. Okay. So you don't know about the Hasan Kikic school. But we
19 can agree that, at least in respect of Betonirka, that's one of the two
20 prisons that point number 3 is suggesting should be organised; correct?
21 A. That's right. That's right.
22 Q. Now, below that reference to the prison, we see a reference to
23 bring in Adil Draganovic. You mentioned that you knew him and you've
24 mentioned your knowledge of him today. We also see a number of persons
25 should be arrested, Redzo Kurbegovic. And I also see a reference to
1 Ismet Jakupovic. That's the person that you mentioned earlier today who
2 you guessed might have written the book that we were discussing --
3 MR. JEREMY: D676.
4 Q. -- correct? I think you said it could have been Ismet or his
6 A. I did not mention Jakupovic.
7 Q. I can get the transcript reference.
8 MR. IVETIC: If I can assist. The -- and I did not want to rise
9 to make an objection, but the -- other names were used. And I just had
10 it and I just lost it.
11 JUDGE ORIE: If you give a page and line reference, that would be
12 appreciated, Mr. Ivetic.
13 MR. IVETIC: That's what I'm trying to get to, Your Honours.
14 That would be --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Must be somewhere --
16 MR. IVETIC: -- from page 37 through page 39, and at page 38
17 and 39, I believe -- 39, line 1, gives the name of the individual which
18 might assist counsel. So it's page 39 throughout -- well, actually,
19 page 38, lines 25, through page 39, line 22. Line 2, pardon.
20 MR. JEREMY: Yes, that does assist. Thank you, Mr. Ivetic. I've
21 got the wrong name. It's actually Nihad Kljucanic [sic] who you referred
22 to earlier today.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Kljucanin.
24 JUDGE ORIE: That's what the transcript tells us as well.
25 Please proceed.
1 MR. JEREMY: Thank you.
2 Q. Well --
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I just ask you, was there a Kljucanin and a
4 Kljucanic? Are these two different people?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Kljucanin.
6 MR. JEREMY:
7 Q. Sir, looking at your entry, it -- does that refer to a
8 Nihad Kljucanin?
9 A. What entry? What reference do you mean?
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can we zoom in on the upper half of the
11 handwritten version. A bit further.
12 MR. JEREMY: If we could zoom in on the underlined part.
13 Q. Sir, there is a name that is underlined on the screen before you,
14 written in your hand. What is that name?
15 A. Nihad Kljucanin.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Well, apparently the English transcription is not
19 Mr. Ivetic, everyone agrees that the original is about
20 Nihad Kljucanin as the witness said.
21 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
23 MR. IVETIC: And I note that there are other typos on this page
24 as well, but --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's then -- there is no dispute about
2 Please proceed.
3 MR. JEREMY:
4 Q. So these are a list. These -- this list of persons to be
5 arrested or brought in, they are some of the leading non-Serbs in
6 Sanski Most; correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. The reference to civilians for exchange, that's a reference to
9 non-Serb civilians; correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. The reference to attack at 6.00 a.m., that refers to an attack to
12 be carried out the following day; correct?
13 A. I wouldn't know that. Not exactly.
14 Q. Now, the reference to "do not arrest with weapons," that means
15 take no prisoners if armed; correct?
16 A. You can't arrest people with weapons.
17 Q. But if they had -- if they were holding weapons, then they were
18 to be killed; correct?
19 A. If they put up armed resistance.
20 Q. Now, I'd like to go to an entry in the diary of --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Before we do so, I take it that you're moving to a
22 different page and I rather have one more question.
23 This Mr. Kljucanin who you said was one of the authors of the
24 book, was he an extremist? And let me clarify: Was he someone who had
25 taken up arms or where you had information that he would take up arms?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wouldn't know that, no. I
3 JUDGE ORIE: Nevertheless, his arrest is ordered here. Do you
4 know why he should be arrested?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. It was security
6 officers who made suggestions as to who should be brought in based on
7 their assessments of the people in the field and on their estimate as to
8 who might be dangerous.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Now, you said that these were all prominent
10 non-Serbs which are listed here for -- to be arrested. Do you know of
11 any of these names - that is, Mr. Kurbegovic or Mr. Karaleg or
12 Mr. Jakupovic or any of those names - do you have any knowledge, specific
13 knowledge, about why they should be arrested apart from referring to what
14 security organ's assessment might have been, but have you any knowledge
15 about why these specific persons were to be arrested?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wouldn't know that. What I see
17 before me, a list of those people, they were all connected with the SDA,
18 the Executive Board, the Main Board, the army, and so on and so forth.
19 And specifically why people are brought in, I wouldn't know.
20 JUDGE ORIE: So being connected with the SDA Executive Board
21 would be a sufficient reason to arrest someone?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think that it was so
23 strongly connected with the Executive Board. It was more about arming
24 and people who were involved in that, in the arming of other people.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But when I asked you whether -- why you had --
1 whether you had any knowledge as why they would have to be arrested, you
2 referred to such links rather than to suggest that it was because of
3 arming that they should be arrested.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Then we didn't understand each
5 other. If somebody was a member of the SDA, it doesn't mean that he was
6 necessarily against -- or, rather, in favour of armed rebellion. Not
7 everybody was. But there was a group of people in charge of arming, and
8 they were affiliated with the SDA.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But for the one person you are aware of,
10 that's Mr. Kljucanin, you do not know whether he was -- you do have no
11 information as whether he would be an extremist and he would take up
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that. I don't know.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, you're on your feet.
15 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour. Page 81, line 15, after the Main
16 Board. I heard "arming," and I asked my colleague in the B/C/S, the word
17 used apparently was "arming," not "army."
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In my view, it was at least unclear.
19 MR. IVETIC: That's perhaps the best answer.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Well, we'll -- you mean the word -- the English word
21 used by interpreters? We could easily verify.
22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter notes the word, indeed, was
24 JUDGE ORIE: The interpreter has clarified that it was "arming."
25 Thank you for assisting in making the transcript as accurate as possible.
1 Please proceed, Mr. Jeremy.
2 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.
3 Q. Sir, the non-Serb civilians for exchange referred to here, now
4 the intention was to capture these non-Serb civilians, keep them as
5 prisoner, and then later exchange them; correct?
6 A. And where were they brought in?
7 Q. We see a reference there to civilians for exchange. You
8 confirmed that this is a reference to non-Serb civilians. And my
9 question is this: The intention was to capture non-Serb civilians, hold
10 them as prisoner, and then later exchange them; correct?
11 A. No. The civilians which were either exchanged or left the
12 municipality voluntarily were never brought in or arrested. They
13 volunteered to leave by bus. They were not brought in or sent to some
14 collection centres, as far as I know.
15 Q. So we have this entry number 3: "Organise two prisons." We've
16 got some text below it. The text refers to the leading Muslim and
17 non-Serb persons in the municipality.
18 Below that, "Do not arrest with weapons," and then we've got the
19 reference to "Civilians for exchange." It's your position that that
20 doesn't refer to taking into custody or imprisoning those civilians but
21 just being ready for when they came to you and asked for an exchange,
22 then you would facilitate that. Is that well understood?
23 A. This is well understood. People who wanted to leave Sanski Most
24 volunteered. They did not have to be brought in. No collection centres
25 had to be organised for them and they were not.
1 Q. So this entry doesn't anticipate the capture of civilians;
3 A. No, it doesn't.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jeremy, one clarifying question.
5 If civilians could voluntarily move out if they wished to do so,
6 why would they wait for being exchanged? I mean, what -- why would they?
7 They could leave if they wished to leave. What does "exchange" mean
8 under those circumstances?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They volunteered to leave
10 Sanski Most; civilians, that is. They took buses and they went in the
11 direction of those municipalities which were controlled by Muslims,
12 whereas people who arrived from the territories controlled by Muslims who
13 were of Serb origin arrived in Sanski Most. There were times when the
14 number of the population in Sanski Most doubled. One still didn't leave,
15 the others had already arrived pending the departure of the former.
16 JUDGE ORIE: You're describing a situation where some people move
17 out and other people move in. Now, the word "exchange" suggests that you
18 could move out only if others could move in, that it was arranged for
19 rather than if I want to leave I leave, if someone wants to travel in,
20 you travel in.
21 So my question is: What does "exchange" mean in this context at
22 all if everyone was free to move in and out?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In factual terms, there was no
24 exchange. It was impossible to carry out any exchanges. There was
25 nobody to exchange people for. If from Bosanska Krupa people arrived,
1 3.000 of them in Sanski Most, then 5.000 people leave Sanski Most at the
2 same time. This is not an exchange. It's never meant to be an exchange.
3 An exchange is when you bring people to a certain place where another
4 group of people is waiting and you exchange one group for the other. And
5 this is not an exchange.
6 JUDGE ORIE: You agree with me that the word "exchange" is used
7 here, and I inform you that the Chamber has received evidence that
8 exchanges of the kind as you describe did happen - I'm not specifically
9 referring to Sanski Most at this moment - but that those exchanges were
10 happening, sometimes even with larger number of people.
11 Any comment on the use of the word, also in view the evidence
12 this Chamber has received?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my view, this term, "exchange,"
14 is wrong. It doesn't function well. It does not reflect the factual
15 situation. If somebody leaves a municipality and if somebody else comes
16 to that municipality, this is not an exchange. This is perhaps just a
17 misfortunate use of words.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We've heard your explanation.
19 Mr. Jeremy, please proceed.
20 We have to take a break, as a matter of fact.
21 Could you give us an indication, Mr. Jeremy, as to how much time
22 you would still need?
23 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, I estimated two hours. I think that I
24 will be less than that but I don't anticipate concluding today.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Then that's clear to us.
1 Witness, you may follow the usher. We'd like to see you back in
2 20 minutes.
3 [The witness stands down]
4 JUDGE ORIE: We will resume at 5 minutes to 2.00.
5 --- Recess taken at 1.32 p.m.
6 --- On resuming at 1.55 p.m.
7 JUDGE ORIE: We are waiting for the witness to be escorted into
8 the courtroom.
9 Yes, perhaps I briefly deal with the following matter:
10 Associated exhibits remaining from the testimony of GRM130.
11 On the 27th of November of last year, the Chamber addressed the
12 Defence with regard to the number of associated exhibits through
13 Witness GRM130 and reiterated its preference for having such exhibits
14 used with and tendered through witnesses in court. This can be found at
15 transcript page 28949.
16 However, no additional submissions were made, nor were the
17 exhibits used with the witness in court. The Chamber would therefore
18 like to clarify with the Defence its intention with regards to the 13
19 remaining associated exhibits tendered with Witness GRM130; in
20 particular, whether it has considered withdrawing any of the remaining
22 And I can imagine that you could not immediately respond to this
23 but we would like to receive a response not -- perhaps tomorrow, that ...
24 [The witness takes the stand]
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I see, Mr. Stojanovic, you are nodding yes.
1 We would like to receive a response tomorrow.
2 Mr. Davidovic, Mr. Jeremy will now continue his
4 Please proceed.
5 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.
6 Can we please have P3294 on our screens.
7 Q. And, sir, while this is coming up, I can tell you that it's the
8 diary of Mr. Rasula, and I'll be referring you to page 57 in the English
9 and page 40 in the B/C/S. And this particular diary entry is on the same
10 date as the entry that we just looked at in your diary.
11 MR. JEREMY: If we could zoom in on the right-hand side of the
12 page in the B/C/S, please. Thank you very much.
13 Q. So, sir, we see that -- I refer you to the 25th of May, 1992. We
14 see that this is a Crisis Staff meeting. We see, number 1: Information
15 on security of important features. Going down the list, number 4,
16 pre-empting enemy operations. We see arrest of leaders. And we see:
17 "Detention facilities (Miladin Papric and Mico Krunic)." Those are the
18 two names you mentioned in connection with the entry in your diary.
19 At the bottom of the page, we see item 4, various persons are to
20 be taken into custody.
21 So, sir, this is the same -- this entry is relating to the same
22 meeting that we just looked at in your diary; correct?
23 Mr. Davidovic, should I repeat the question?
24 A. Please do.
25 Q. My question is whether the entry that we see here in Mr. Rasula's
1 diary is minutes relating to the same meeting that we just looked at in
2 your diary.
3 A. I think so.
4 MR. JEREMY: Could we go to the next page in the English and the
5 B/C/S, please. We'll need to go to the left side on the B/C/S. Sorry,
6 could we go to page 40 in the B/C/S. This is page 40. Could we scroll
7 over to the right side, then. Forgive me.
8 Q. Now, sir, focusing your attention at the bottom of the page in
9 the B/C/S, and we're looking at the top of the page in the English:
10 "Tuesday, at 6-7 o'clock, the operation begins.
11 "- the fighting will not stop until they surrender.
12 "- take no prisoners if armed."
13 And the final bullet:
14 "- captured civilians to be used for exchanges."
15 So this entry clearly reflects the factual situation. That is,
16 that civilians were to be captured, imprisoned, and used for exchanges;
18 A. I don't know if civilians are captured, where they will be
19 accommodated and what other population they will be exchanged for. I'm
20 really not clear on that.
21 Q. Well, sir, regardless of whether you're clear of whether those
22 civilians will be kept, can we agree that the intention is clearly to
23 capture those civilians and exchange them?
24 A. That's what I see in this document. But where will they
25 accommodate them if they capture them and who will they exchange them
1 for? I don't understand.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Next question please, Mr. Jeremy. The witness asks
3 himself questions as to how to understand it and apparently is not able
4 to give any information.
5 Please proceed.
6 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.
7 Let's go to the next entry, please, in Mr. Rasula's diary.
8 That's page 58 in the English and 41 in the B/C/S. So we're on the right
9 page in the English. If we can look at the left side. Sorry, could we
10 scroll over to the other side in the B/C/S.
11 Q. So, sir, we see this is a Crisis Staff meeting. It's dated the
12 26th of May, 1992.
13 MR. JEREMY: And if we can go to the next -- if we can scroll
14 over to the right side in the B/C/S, please. And if we could go to the
15 next page in the English.
16 Q. And we see your name, sir, there, at the bottom of the page in
17 the English: "Nenad Davidovic - what we are doing was imposed on us."
18 So, sir, you were present at this particular meeting; correct? That's a
19 reference to you.
20 A. I think so, yes.
21 MR. JEREMY: Could we scroll over to the left side on the B/C/S,
22 please, and go back one page in the English.
23 Q. Now --
24 MR. JEREMY: If we could just go back one page in the English,
1 Q. Sir, we see that, number 1, there is a reference to
2 Major Veljko Brajic, talking about himself, his personality, and
4 Then a few lines down -- ten lines down or so, we see:
5 "In future work, we must make sure ..."
6 And then number a):
7 "That prisoners of war are to be taken over from MUP/Ministry of
8 the Interior/, held overnight, and the most extreme among them isolated
9 and punished so as not to walk this earth."
10 So this Major Brajic suggesting that the most extreme prisoners
11 of war are to be isolated and not walk this earth, that was the chief of
12 staff of the 6th Brigade in Sanski Most; correct?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. Now, you personally came into contact with non-Serbs that were
15 arrested during the disarming operations in Sanski Most during this
16 period; correct?
17 A. No, not with all of them. I did with some.
18 Q. I am not suggesting you came into contact with every one of them,
20 Could we see -- could we now go back to your diary, and I'd like
21 to look at an entry in there.
22 MR. JEREMY: 65 ter 19777, please. And if we could go to
23 page 22.
24 Q. Now, sir, we see that this is a meeting on the 28th of May, 1992.
25 So it's a couple of days after the entry that we've just looked at. We
1 see that number 2 there is a reference to "Doctors' stand on refugee
2 issue," and I want to focus your attention on number 8, Mehmed Alagic.
3 And we see a reference to:
4 "Mehmed Alagic - identity card and money.
5 "with me.
6 "handed over/to crime?/"
7 So, sir, where we see "with me," it's correct that Mehmed Alagic
8 was with you for a period of time on the 28th of May, 1992; correct?
9 A. This is not correct. I never saw Mehmed Alagic.
10 Q. Can you explain why you would -- why at that time you would have
11 made a note of him in your diary and suggested that he's with you and
12 handed over to somebody?
13 A. No, I was not in contact at all with Mehmed Alagic because he's a
14 colleague of mine, professionally speaking. I would have remembered that
15 for sure, had I been with him.
16 Q. Was he considered an extremist in Sanski Most at this time?
17 A. I think so, yes.
18 Q. And did you consider him an extremist?
19 A. Well, the answer would rather be yes than no, because he was
20 under the strong influence of Faik Biscevic.
21 Q. And we see he's the eighth name on a list of persons below the
22 heading "Doctors' stand on refugee issue." That reference to "Doctor,"
23 is that a reference to you? Is it a reference to your stand on refugee
25 A. What do you mean?
1 Q. In point number 2, we see: "Doctors' stand on refugee issue,"
2 and my question is whether "Doctor" is a reference to yourself,
3 Dr. Davidovic?
4 A. No, no. All doctors.
5 Q. Sir, you said you knew Mehmed Alagic and you say that he was a
6 colleague, also a fellow doctor. So you also know that three days after
7 the entry that we see here in your diary, Mehmed Alagic was found dead on
8 the Sanski Most city bridge. You knew that; correct?
9 A. I heard about that, that he was killed soon afterwards. It was
10 May or June, something like that.
11 MR. JEREMY: Could we, as the last document today --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Before we do so, this is your diary, isn't it,
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us what you intended to write down
16 when you wrote "identity card and money with me handed over/to"? What
17 does it mean?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really don't remember that that
19 was handed over to me and that I had that. Maybe yes, but I don't
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
22 Please proceed.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Another follow-up question.
24 Mr. Davidovic, the third line on the top, with the number 2,
25 could you please read that as it is written there? Read it aloud,
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do you mean this: Seric, Muhamed?
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: No, no. On top of the page where we find now the
4 first -- and please read that one line under number 2.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Doctors' stand on refugee issue."
6 Is that what you mean?
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Exactly. Is that a plural or ...
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All doctors.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but could we invite the parties to agree
10 linguistically on whether it says stand on refugee issue by the doctor,
11 of a doctor, or whether it's a reference to a plurality of doctors?
12 Mr. --
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Overlapping speakers] ...
14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We did not hear what the
15 witness said now.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the witness should not talk unless he's asked
18 But I'll now ask you: Is that the stand on refugee issues of a
19 doctor or is it of -- linguistically does it refer to doctors in the
20 plural, because it is translated to us as "doctors' stand on refugee
21 issues," which could be both singular and plural, if I am --
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Plural, plural, the position of all
23 doctors. Because medical care had to be provided to refugees in the
24 territory of the municipality; that is to say, it is the plural. It is
25 the stand or position taken by all doctors.
1 JUDGE ORIE: That's your explanation. We'll have this
2 linguistically verified.
3 Then there is a list of nine persons. What does that list stand
4 for? I mean, why did you list nine persons?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I could not say. I don't even know
6 who all these people are. I have no idea.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Nevertheless, you wrote their names down and you
8 even referred to --
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, but I don't know why.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
11 Then next question, please, Mr. Jeremy.
12 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, I know that we're nearly at the end of
13 the day. I was going to look at a document also in connection with this,
14 but it will take a few minutes, so I'm in your hands.
15 JUDGE ORIE: What is a few minutes? Is that less than -- is that
16 five or less, Mr. Jeremy.
17 MR. JEREMY: Five or less.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Five or less. Then I am looking at the booth
19 whether -- and I see that, as always, we get the full co-operation from
20 those assisting us, which is again highly appreciated.
21 Please proceed, Mr. Jeremy.
22 MR. JEREMY: Could we please see 65 ter 17364.
23 Q. And this is a report on the clearing up of the terrain in the
24 town of Mahala dated the 31st of May, 1992.
25 MR. JEREMY: 17364.
1 Q. So, sir, we see that this is a report on the field inspection in
2 the suburb of Mahala. We see that it's dated the 31st of May, 1992. And
3 I want to focus your attention on point number 4 at the bottom of each --
4 the page in each language. We read:
5 "The body of Dr. Mehmed Alagic was found on the bridge over the
6 Sana River (the city bridge), following information by Sanski Most SJB
7 duty ..."
8 MR. JEREMY: And if we go over the page in English.
9 Q. "... service. The body was identified, taken to 'Susnjar'
10 Cemetery and buried under number 8 (in the second row)."
11 Sir, this man was in your -- is listed in your diary in an entry
12 a couple of days earlier. You say in your statement that you were
13 involved in sanitation activities. Did you -- did you --
14 A. I do not understand you.
15 Q. Yes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: If you would first wait for the question.
17 Mr. Jeremy.
18 MR. JEREMY:
19 Q. Is it your position that you were not aware that
20 Dr. Mehmed Alagic died on this date even though you were entering his
21 name in your diary two days prior?
22 A. I've already told you that I was not with Dr. Alagic and that I
23 had not seen him at all. I personally. When he was killed, I heard that
24 he had been killed and buried. I did not have any contact with him.
25 Q. And did that knowledge have any particular significance for you
1 when you heard about him being killed given that you wrote his name down
2 in your own diary two days prior to his death and indicated that he was
3 with you and handed over to somebody?
4 A. Wasn't with me. Mehmed Alagic was not with me.
5 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, I'd tender that document as the next
6 Prosecution exhibit.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Document 17364 receives Exhibit P7123, Your
10 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
11 Those were your questions, Mr. Jeremy?
12 Witness, we'll adjourn for the day, and we'd like to see you back
13 tomorrow morning, 9.30, in this same courtroom. Before you leave the
14 courtroom, I instruct you that you should not speak with anyone or
15 communicate in whatever way about your testimony, whether that is
16 testimony you've given today or whether that is testimony still to be
17 given tomorrow.
18 If that is clear to you, you may follow the usher.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 [The witness stands down]
21 JUDGE ORIE: We adjourn for the day and will resume tomorrow,
22 Thursday, the 12th of February, 9.30 in the morning, in this same
23 courtroom, I.
24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.20 p.m.,
25 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 12th day
1 of February, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.