Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 31682

 1                           Monday, 16 February 2015

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is the case

 9     number IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             Mr. Lukic, the Chamber was informed that there was a preliminary

12     matter you would like to raise.

13             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  Good morning.

14             We are in a situation where we will need some help from our

15     colleagues from Belgrade to help us with leading our witnesses.  And

16     since Mr. Petrusic is not able to be with us, we would kindly ask

17     Your Honours to replace Mr. Petrusic with Sasa Lukic.  Who would -- we

18     need him I know for sure the next week to lead one or two witnesses.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20             MR. LUKIC:  So --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Now you talk about Mr. Sasa Lukic as if he is known

22     to everyone.

23             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.  He is on our team from the beginning.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

25             MR. LUKIC:  He work on Beara Defence team and he is our legal


Page 31683

 1     assistant, a lawyer from Belgrade.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, qualified.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Qualified.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll consider it and --

 5             MR. LUKIC:  If you need more details, we can provide you in

 6     writing if it's necessary.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll find out whether we need more details.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Of course, the name is well known but there may be a

10     difference in experience with him in this -- among the Judges in this

11     Chamber.  And perhaps we could share what we know and ask ourselves what

12     we still need to know in addition to that.

13             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  We will consider it.

15             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Nothing else.  Then could the witness be brought in.

17             Mr. Traldi, if I understand well you've got one hour and

18     six minutes left from the time estimate.

19             MR. TRALDI:  For everyone's planning purposes, I expect to be

20     about half of that.

21                           [The witness takes the stand]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Puhalic.

23             Mr. Puhalic, before we continue, I'd like to remind you that you

24     are still bound by the solemn declaration you have given at the beginning

25     of your testimony, that you will speak the truth, the whole truth, and


Page 31684

 1     nothing but the truth.  Mr. Traldi will now continue his

 2     cross-examination.

 3             Mr. Traldi.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 5                           WITNESS:  SLAVKO PUHALIC [Resumed]

 6                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 7                           Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi: [Continued]

 8        Q.   Good morning, sir.

 9        A.   Good morning.  May I -- before we continue, may I explain

10     something?

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, if it's relevant for us, please do so.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Since the Prosecutor asked me

13     the other day about some buses that were arriving from the area of

14     Hambarine, Tukovi, Ravcani [phoen], et cetera, I was not -- how do I put

15     this?  I wasn't really understanding things right at that moment and then

16     I remembered why I was not at the Trnopolje camp.  Then, on the 19th of

17     July, my brother was killed up there in that area, and I was not present

18     for about four or five days at the Trnopolje camp, so I could not

19     remember these buses that were coming in.  That's all.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi.

21             MR. TRALDI:

22        Q.   I want to start this morning, sir, with the issue of the video

23     that Mr. Lukic showed you last week.  And you'd claimed that the

24     journalists we saw were inside barbed wire, not the prisoners.  Now, if

25     the journalists were inside the barbed wire, we would only see barbed


Page 31685

 1     wire on one side of the prisoners, right, just between the journalists

 2     and them?

 3        A.   Well, precisely.  That is what is claimed, that the journalists

 4     were within this encircled compound because this wire was around the

 5     shop.  It wasn't around the camp.  It was precisely around that shop.

 6     There was this shop there.  This shop --

 7        Q.   Sir --

 8        A.   -- selling agricultural tools and --

 9        Q.   I understand.  You've given that explanation on direct, and I'm

10     going to try to be very brief about this topic because you testified that

11     you don't recall whether you were there.

12             MR. TRALDI:  And I'm going to ask Ms. Stewart now to pull up

13     P206, a longer version of that visit.  And show, without playing

14     anything, just 8 minutes, 23.9 seconds, to start us off.

15        Q.   Now, we're looking at Trnopolje from just a couple of metres away

16     from the intersection of the two roads that we discussed Thursday that

17     border the camp in this shot; right?

18        A.   I don't know.  I don't see anything here.

19        Q.   Do you agree that we're looking at it from right near the

20     intersection of those roads?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And you can see in the foreground, slightly blurry, a man in an

23     olive-drab uniform and then a post between him and the prisoners.  And

24     then along the road in the back right of the screen we also see a number

25     of posts; right?


Page 31686

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  Now I'm going to ask Ms. Stewart to go forwards to

 3     9 minutes and 13 seconds.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Perhaps you should first state the time-frame the

 5     still was taken from.  It was 8:23.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi announced 8:23.  I think it was on the

 7     record already.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  I missed that.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  But could we go back -- could we go back.

10     Mr. Traldi, you said there was one post there.  Apparently the witness

11     confirmed what you'd said you saw.  Could we see exactly what the first

12     post -- and perhaps you could assist the usher in using the -- I see the

13     person, but the first post is -- could you ask the usher to or Registry

14     to use the -- how do you call it?  The --

15             MR. TRALDI:  Sure.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes?

17             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, the post I indicated in the foreground

18     is just to the right of the man in the olive-drab uniform.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That is that one which is now -- that looks

20     kind of like an iron bar.

21             MR. TRALDI:  Yes.  And --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  And then the ones, that's what I'm more -- the first

23     one I had no difficulties in --

24             MR. TRALDI:  And then if we go to the right side of the picture -

25     the Registry has found them - we see a number of posts along the road


Page 31687

 1     ringing the camp on the other side.  And, Your Honour, I was using this

 2     shot for orientation but I think the point will be a little clearer if we

 3     go to the next bit of the video.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  And if you say from orientation, you said there

 5     was -- where the roads -- let me just get back to the ...

 6             MR. TRALDI:  And I --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  Sorry, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  The intersection, from what direction is the

10     intersection filmed here?  At least what is your understanding of from

11     where it is filmed?  Is it from south, from north, east?  I mean,

12     intersection has a lot of -- or if you say it will become more clear with

13     the stills still to be looked at, then I'll wait.  But ...

14             MR. TRALDI:  I would say that, Mr. President.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then I leave it there for the time.

16             Please proceed.

17             MR. TRALDI:  Could we move to 9 minutes, 13 seconds.  And play --

18     we won't -- we won't need any audio for this part.  Just play from

19     9 minutes, 13 seconds, to 9 minutes, 30 seconds.

20                           [Video-clip played]

21             MR. TRALDI:

22        Q.   Now, what we clearly saw in that shot is that there is barbed

23     wire both between the camera and the men and between the men and the road

24     that's on the right of the image; right, sir?

25        A.   On the right-hand side this is some kind of mesh, meshed wire.


Page 31688

 1     So it's like -- what?  1 metre, 10, 20 centimetres.  That's its height.

 2     Regular mesh.  There was no barbed wire.

 3        Q.   I understand you're concerned about the term "barbed."  You'd

 4     certainly agree that those men are enclosed both in front of them and in

 5     what is to their right in the image; right?

 6        A.   No.  People were not enclosed, detained.

 7        Q.   Well, we see wire on multiple sides of these men.  Do you recall

 8     ever being at the camp when there was wire around them like that, or is

 9     this something you don't recall seeing yourself?

10        A.   In camp?  No.  I was there.  The men who were shown a few moments

11     ago within the compound of that shop, there was this passageway.  And

12     then behind the first post, there were these two other posts.  How do I

13     explain this to you?  There was some kind of gate there and people

14     normally just went through there and looked for the shade.  It was very

15     hot.  So people would try to seek shelter in the shade from the sun.  So

16     it's not that anybody brought them there by force or anything like that.

17     No.

18        Q.   Sir --

19        A.   And in front -- sorry.

20        Q.   I -- I'm sorry to interrupt.  I'd asked you a very specific

21     question, which was:  Do you recall ever being at the camp yourself and

22     seeing wire around this group of men on multiple sides or is that

23     something that you weren't able to see while you were there?

24        A.   No, I was not able to see any such thing while I was there.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness explain what the gate then means


Page 31689

 1     in this context.

 2             You said there was a gate.  The gate --

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  It was sort of a

 4     passageway, open -- you could see those two posts.  Now, who was showing

 5     this?  And you see there that there is not a proper gate there.  There is

 6     no door.  That meant that people could pass there freely.  It was very

 7     hot and people were looking for the shade, and then there was this

 8     prefabricated building there, and they probably tried to be in the shade

 9     there.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Now if I understand you well, if a gate is an

11     opening, it means that where there is no gate, that there at least there

12     is some kind of closure.  I'm not saying whether it is barbed wire or

13     anything else.  But a gate means that you can pass there, whereas where

14     there is no gate you can't pass.  Would you agree with that?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Of course, yes.  It was of an

16     open type.  Of course one could pass through there, yes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You are emphasizing where you could pass,

18     whereas I put to you that if there are certain spots where you can pass,

19     that on other places you may not be able to pass -- at least, there is

20     some kind of a fence of whatever type.  Would you agree with that as

21     well?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As can be seen from what has been

23     shown here, there was a fence.  But as far as I can remember, even

24     through this fence, this mesh that was underneath the barbed wire, people

25     had again made some kind of passageway.  Was it one or two?  Again, so


Page 31690

 1     that they could pass from that side to this side where the shop was

 2     because there was shade there, so they were looking for shade either

 3     underneath the tree or in that shop.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  For the transcript, page 8, line 12, I hope I

 5     said: "Whereas there is no gate, you cannot pass."  But that is my

 6     recollection of what I said.

 7             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

 8             MR. TRALDI:

 9        Q.   Sir, I'm done with this topic.  And I have, for the moment, a

10     very specific question about a group called the Manijakosi who you

11     referred to in your statement.  Now, that group was formed by

12     Milenko Slijepcevic out of men from his battalion of the 43rd Brigade;

13     right?

14        A.   I didn't understand the question, please.

15        Q.   You mention a group called the Manijakosi in your statement, and

16     what I'm asking you is:  Were you aware that that was a group formed by

17     Milenko Slijepcevic out of men from his battalion of the 43rd Brigade of

18     the VRS?

19        A.   That I cannot tell you because I don't know who it was that had

20     formed that.  I just know that that is what their name was.

21        Q.   Okay.  Then I'm going to focus on your duties now.  First, you

22     were the only Slavko Puhalic at Trnopolje; right?

23        A.   Slavko Puhalic?  Yes.  But there were other names.  I mean ...

24        Q.   And your evidence is that you were involved in procuring food for

25     Trnopolje.  One way food for the camp was procured was via the logistics


Page 31691

 1     base at Cirkin Polje; right?

 2        A.   The logistics base and on orders from Major Kuruzovic and the

 3     Red Cross.

 4        Q.   And the chief of that logistics base was Mirko Mudrinic; right?

 5        A.   I think so, yes.

 6        Q.   Did you know him?

 7        A.   Well, very little.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  Can the Prosecution please have 65 ter 07140, not to

 9     be broadcast but can be addressed in open session.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  07?

11             MR. TRALDI:  07140.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

13        Q.   Now, this is a report from the Cirkin Polje logistics base dated

14     the 17th of June, 1992.  Here on the first page it's discussing motor

15     vehicles have been mobilised.

16             MR. TRALDI:  And could we please have page 4 in both languages.

17     I'm sorry.  I'm not sure we have page 4 in the English.  My notes, I'm

18     afraid, were in error.  If we could have page 8 in the English.

19        Q.   Now, this mentions just below point 41 that Cirkin Polje

20     logistics base is being used for distribution of food for the police in

21     the centre, in Prijedor II, army units in Prijedor II, Autotransport, the

22     hospital, Trnopolje, Keraterm, and other purposes.  So this confirms what

23     we just discussed, that this was the logistics base -- that this

24     logistics base, rather, was one of the places Trnopolje would get food

25     from; right?


Page 31692

 1        A.   Yes, that happened too.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  Now if we could have page 7 in the B/C/S and page 13

 3     in the English.  Sorry, page 12 in the English.

 4        Q.   We see here an addendum to the report, and it begins:

 5             "On the 15th of June, 1992, a number of members of the

 6     Territorial Defence Staff of the Serbian army and members of the

 7     Cirkin Polje Logistics Base, permanently involved in the securing of

 8     Trnopolje," which it describes as a refugees' centre, "addressed

 9     themselves to the leadership (command) of the Logistics Base,

10     underscoring the problem of fuel shortage due to which they are not able

11     to carry out security tasks in Trnopolje."

12             And then it refers to a number of such people.  Do you see your

13     name at point 3?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And it describes you as having taken a Mercedes.  It says you're

16     engaged in Trnopolje and working for the military police.  Now, does that

17     refresh your recollection as to whether as of the 15th of June you were

18     still engaged at Trnopolje and able to address yourself to this

19     Cirkin Polje logistics base in regards to a vehicle that you'd taken from

20     another man?

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 31693

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7        Q.   Sir, I --

 8        A.   Excuse me.  And what's written here --

 9        Q.   You've gone a little bit beyond the question.  I'm going to ask

10     you a couple of specific follow-up questions regarding your answer.

11             First, you said it was the 9th or the 10th of August when you

12     were taking the cars.  Is it your evidence now that you were still at

13     Trnopolje on the 9th or the 10th of August?

14        A.   I didn't say August.  I said June.  8th of June.  Maybe the 8th

15     or maybe the 9th.

16        Q.   And this was a green Mercedes; right?

17        A.   Yes, 300D.

18        Q.   And it was in August that it was signed over to you by a

19     contract; right?

20        A.   Yes.  But I think it was still on the list of the army.

21             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I'd tender this document under seal.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 7140 receives number P7129,

24     Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  P7129 is admitted, under seal.


Page 31694

 1             MR. TRALDI:

 2        Q.   Now, you testified earlier that - in fact on Thursday - that you

 3     had a room in what had used to be the Dom building, and you agreed with

 4     me that you would speak to prisoners there.  In fact, you also conducted

 5     interrogations in that room; right?

 6        A.   I don't know.  There were two rooms.  One was there in the Dom.

 7     I don't know what I would call it.  It's a room you could sleep in.  And

 8     between the Dom and the health centre or medical centre - what shall I

 9     call it? - there was another little room where I spoke a couple of times

10     with some locals who were said to have guns in their houses.  And I

11     needed to talk to them to prevent some kind of situation that would

12     involve revenge.

13        Q.   You interrogated those men; right?

14        A.   No, no.  It was just talk.  I couldn't interrogate anyone because

15     I had no - how shall I put it? - orders or something to interrogate

16     people.  I wasn't a military policeman as they claim here.  I just had a

17     white belt that a friend gave me because I had no other belt to put on.

18     Maybe somebody thought because of that white belt that I was a military

19     policeman, but I wasn't.  I was just a regular soldier.

20        Q.   So just to make sure I understand your evidence, your evidence is

21     that Mr. Mudrinic, who you testified knew you, was incorrect that you

22     were a military policeman.  And when you spoke to Muslims who were said

23     to have guns in their houses, you were just having a casual conversation

24     with them to avoid the possibility of revenge rather than conducting the

25     questioning that would have been standard at that time.  Do I understand


Page 31695

 1     your evidence correctly?

 2        A.   That's right.

 3        Q.   Now, you -- as you testified on Thursday, you had the most

 4     contact with Major Kuruzovic.  You were a link between him and the other

 5     men.  This would have made you recognisable figure in the camp; right?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   You're aware from your Karadzic testimony, aren't you, that

 8     people at Trnopolje - including Mr. Gutic, the Serb we discussed who

 9     assisted at the medical clinic - have testified here under oath at the

10     Tribunal, though in different cases, that you, in fact, did in that room

11     take part in interrogations where people were beaten; right?

12        A.   I don't know which Serb you are talking about.

13             MR. TRALDI:  Well, let's look briefly at 65 ter 32011.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  While we are waiting for it, Mr. Traldi, when you

15     earlier put to the witness what was said in the report, you said he was a

16     military policeman, whereas the report says that he works for the

17     military police which may not be exactly the same.

18             Please proceed.

19             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Your Honour.

20        Q.   Now, this is part of Mr. Gutic's testimony in the Tadic case, his

21     sworn testimony.

22             MR. TRALDI:  If we could have page 5.

23        Q.   Now, Mr. Tadic's counsel, Mr. Kay, asked:

24             "Mr. Gutic, did Slavko Puhalic have an office in that building?"

25             And Mr. Gutic responded:


Page 31696

 1             "As I have said, Slavko Puhalic and the major were spending a

 2     large part of their time in those offices while in the camp, but

 3     Slavko Puhalic also had an office which was in another building beyond

 4     this large building, the former office of the local commune.  There were

 5     some small offices and that is where Slavko also took inmates for

 6     interrogation when they interrogated, when he interrogated them and where

 7     some were beaten."

 8             That's the truth, isn't it?

 9        A.   No.

10             MR. TRALDI:  And turning to page 2.

11        Q.   He's asked about people being called out of Trnopolje.  And he

12     says:

13             "Yes, that happened on numerous occasions.  I saw twice or more a

14     police vehicle, a van, with a policeman who would come to the camp with

15     such a list, and the deputy commander would come, Slavko Puhalic.  He

16     would give him the paper.  They would comment on it.  They were looking

17     at them.  Then Slavko would give that list to the Shift Commander and

18     then he together with the soldiers, with the guards, would go to the camp

19     and was looking for people from those lists, and when they were found

20     they would be taken into the van and driven off."

21             Now, you also took part in taking people out of Trnopolje camp;

22     right?

23        A.   Well, it's not that I took part in taking people away.  But there

24     was one list or maybe two lists that the police used to come with, and

25     the people who were on those lists - I don't know why, because they were


Page 31697

 1     members of some political party or some military formation - I had to

 2     pick them up.  I couldn't disobey.  There were orders.  If somebody was

 3     wanted, I didn't know why they were wanted, but I would take them and

 4     tell them that they needed to go for an interview.  What happened later,

 5     I don't know.  But, yes, in one or two cases -- maybe two or three or

 6     four cases, I was involved when the police came.  And once even the

 7     military police came.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  And can we have 65 ter 32007.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  While this comes up, I would like to ask the

10     witness:  What do you mean by, "I was involved when the police came"?

11     Involved in what?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I mean, I had to execute because

13     Major Kuruzovic told me to join them, to help those people.  I asked

14     around if those people were there, and if they were there they should

15     report.  And if they were not there, then the police went away without

16     picking anyone up.  In two or three cases, I was present with that

17     happened.  When I said "involved," I meant I knew about these things that

18     were going on.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And then you explained:

20             "I had to execute."

21             What did you have to execute?  The order you have received?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes, because the major wasn't

23     there, he told me to be there, to be present, and see when that person

24     was being taken out.  I don't remember if there was some laissez-passer

25     and perhaps those people had been registered by the ICRC at that time, so


Page 31698

 1     we had to know the precise numbers and register anyone who was taken out.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Traldi.

 3             MR. TRALDI:

 4        Q.   Now, this is an excerpt from the Tadic case testimony of

 5     Mustafa Mujkanovic who was detained at Trnopolje, and here on the first

 6     page at the bottom he is asked if he was beaten at Trnopolje.  He says:

 7             "Yes, several times."

 8             MR. TRALDI:  And then turning to the next page.

 9        Q.   He's asked where, and he says in a building next to the centre

10     called "Laboratory."  Now, that's the room you mentioned where you would

11     sometimes speak to people who were thought to have guns in their houses;

12     right?

13        A.   Well, I don't know.  I can't remember whether it was the

14     Laboratory or which other part of the building.  I don't know what it

15     was.

16        Q.   Now, beginning at the bottom of the page, he's asked --

17             MR. TRALDI:  The very bottom.

18        Q.   He's asked if he recognised any of the people who took part in

19     the beating.  He says:

20             "Slavko from Prijedor, a captain by rank..."

21             MR. TRALDI:  And then if we turn to the next page.

22        Q.   "I saw the insignia, three stars, that is a captain -- and he

23     interrogated me.  I do not know, he was a butcher in Prijedor.  I believe

24     his family name was 'Puhovski' or something like that ..."

25             Now while he hasn't remembered your family name perfectly, he's


Page 31699

 1     clearly talking about you; right?

 2        A.   No, it's not about me.  I was not a captain.  There was another

 3     Slavko.  I don't know his last name, but he was a captain.  I cannot

 4     accept this at all.  I cannot accept what he's accusing me of.  He is and

 5     isn't accusing me.  He doesn't name my name correctly and I have never

 6     held any rank.  I was a regular soldier.

 7             I'm not saying such things didn't happen.  But whenever these few

 8     cases happened in the early days, like beatings or blows or injuries in a

 9     couple of cases that I know, I always called the doctor - what's his

10     name? - Idriz.  Every morning he would ask me what to do with a certain

11     patient.  I don't know if anybody from the outside came in the afternoon

12     when we were gone already or beat somebody up or --

13        Q.   Sir --

14        A.   -- stabbed them with a knife.  I don't know if such things

15     happened and they failed to report them.

16        Q.   -- I'm going to stop you there.  You were the only Slavko at

17     Trnopolje that was a butcher from Prijedor; right?

18        A.   I was Slavko and I was a butcher.  But if there were any other

19     butchers among the guards, I don't know.

20             MR. TRALDI:  Now turning to page 4.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we -- you don't know whether there were any

22     other butchers.  Would you know of any butcher in Prijedor by the name

23     Slavko?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  What was his family name?


Page 31700

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot remember all the last

 2     names exactly now, but in my trade, I believe there were three or four

 3     men called Slavko.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  But you don't remember any of the family names?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I had some more time to think

 6     about it, I think I would remember.  But it was a long time ago and it's

 7     been a long time since I am not working anymore.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you see them when you were in Trnopolje?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.  I can't remember

10     because I most often passed by by car and passed by the place where

11     Major Kuruzovic was.  I didn't spend much time going around and meeting

12     other guards.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  You never saw any of them near to where the building

14     was as described by Mr. Mujkanovic?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, while I was there, in the

16     morning hours, the time it took to take care of supplies, I don't know.

17     I don't know if somebody came in the afternoon, but I only saw the

18     captain who was there at the entrance, this Slavko.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  The captain at the entrance?  You said that was a

20     Slavko.  Was he a butcher?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

23             MR. TRALDI:

24        Q.   Just to be very efficient, sir.  At page 4 of this document,

25     Mr. Mujkanovic describes the beating.  He says he was beaten with a


Page 31701

 1     baseball bat, cables, boots, hands, even a chair.  And on page 6 he

 2     confirms that he lost consciousness from this beating and another severe

 3     beating he received.  Now, what he testified here is the truth, isn't it?

 4     He was beaten unconscious in your presence at Trnopolje camp.

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   Now, sir, you've testified in the Karadzic case and this case,

 7     though it was not in your statement in either case, that you were absent

 8     from Trnopolje camp for long periods of time during the summer of 1992,

 9     that you don't remember what dates precisely you returned, what date you

10     left again.  So what I'd put to you is you are doing so because you're

11     aware not just that there are allegations but that there were serious

12     crimes committed in your presence with your involvement at Trnopolje camp

13     in the summer of 1992 and that you were deeply involved in the camp's

14     operations and the interrogations of the prisoners held there.  Do you

15     have any comment on that?

16        A.   I have a comment.  I didn't do any of those things that you are

17     claiming, nor do I have any involvement in these cases.  I don't know.

18     Maybe I offended someone sometime with a bad word or called them a bad

19     name.  Maybe I even pushed a person if they called me a bad name such as

20     Chetnik.  But as for involvement in killings or rapes, no.

21             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, that completes my cross-examination.

22     I note we are close to the time for the break.  I do have one very brief

23     matter to put on the record and perhaps I could do that.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we can do that without the witness.

25             Witness, in your last answer you said:  What they say about me


Page 31702

 1     about killings and rapes is not true.  But most of what was put to you

 2     was about interrogations and beatings, not killing and rapes.  How about

 3     beatings?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  I said perhaps sometimes in

 5     conversation somebody called me a bad name, a derogatory name such as

 6     Chetnik, but I was a soldier of the Yugoslav People's Army and later it

 7     became the TO or something like that.  And as I was saying, maybe I

 8     cursed somebody or called them a bad name.  Sometimes perhaps I even

 9     pushed somebody.  But as for involvement in major beatings -- maybe there

10     were such cases and I know about them and they were reported to

11     Kuruzovic.  And I reacted every time this Dr. Idriz Merdzanic or whatever

12     was his name, when I came into the room in the morning he would tell me

13     whenever somebody had been injured or stabbed by somebody who had come to

14     that place from the outside, he would ask me what to do.  So I cannot

15     claim that such things didn't happen.  They happened.  But who was

16     involved, I don't know.  As for those people who were beaten up, I did go

17     to see them and I asked what had happened, and they would tell me that

18     somebody would come in a military uniform or a police uniform or maybe

19     even wearing a tracksuit.  Those people must have been allowed to come in

20     by the guards.  But it was not a camp.  That's it.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  When you pushed someone, could it have caused any

22     injuries to that person as far as you remember?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't think so.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  You don't think so or it didn't?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know.  It would be


Page 31703

 1     "no" rather than "yes."

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 3             We'll take a break.  We'd like to see you back in 20 minutes.

 4             Mr. Traldi, the matter you would like to put on the record is?

 5             MR. TRALDI:  Actually, two very quick ones.  First to ask for --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  The witness may leave the courtroom.

 7                           [The witness stands down]

 8             MR. TRALDI:  First to ask for a redaction, temporary transcript

 9     page 11, line 16 through 25.  And the short explanation is that's the

10     reason I was asking the document not be broadcast.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

12             MR. TRALDI:  And the second is --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  The --

14             MR. TRALDI:  Sorry.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  -- redaction, Madam Registrar, can be made.

16             MR. TRALDI:  And the second, Mr. President, is I've been informed

17     that my notes --

18                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

19             MR. TRALDI:  I've been informed that my notes were inaccurate as

20     to the ethnicity of Mr. Gutic and I apologise to the Chamber, but we

21     won't, of course, rely on my suggestion that he was a Serb.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You'll not rely on that.  Did you intend to

23     make the ethnicity of that person a relevant issue anyhow?  Because then

24     we should ask the witness.

25             MR. TRALDI:  I didn't.  And I didn't inquire -- I didn't ask the


Page 31704

 1     witness to confirm it.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 3             MR. TRALDI:  But I had misspoken on the record and wanted to

 4     correct it, Mr. President.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you not know whether he is a Serb or is he in

 6     your view not a Serb?

 7             MR. TRALDI:  What I'm told, though I've been on my feet and

 8     haven't confirmed it myself, is that he is not.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We'll take a break and will resume at

10     five minutes to 11.00.

11                           --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.

13                           [The witness takes the stand]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, the Chamber assumed that you would still

15     have some questions for the witness.

16             MR. LUKIC:  The Chamber assumed correctly, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Then please proceed.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

19             Can we see the last document my learned friend discussed with

20     this witness.  It's 65 ter 32007.  We'll need from the line 23 on this

21     page.  This gentleman, Mustafa Mujkanovic, describes two beatings.  And

22     can we have the next page, please.  In line 7 we can see the name of the

23     man who took him for interrogation.  It's Mladen Mitrovic.  And then we

24     need the bottom of the page, line 23 and further.

25                           Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:


Page 31705

 1        Q.   And then he was asked -- I quote, 23:

 2             "Q.  When you were taken to the lab and beaten, did you recognise

 3     any of the people who took part in that beating?"

 4             Answer, in line 25:

 5             "Yes, one Slavko from Prijedor, a Captain by rank -- I mean, I

 6     saw the ..."

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Then the next page, please.

 8        Q.   "... insignia, three stars ..."

 9             MR. LUKIC:  And then my learned friend read the rest of this

10     paragraph until line 7.

11        Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, you told us that you're not a captain.  Did

12     you wear three stars on your uniform?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   Then this man, in line 7 -- I'm going to read this out to you

15     again to see what it was that he said.

16             [In English] Question, I quote:

17             "Sir, the uniforms that these men wore, did the uniforms have any

18     kind of insignia on them?"

19        A.   [Overlapping speakers] ...

20        Q.   [Interpretation] No, no, just a moment, please.  Before I read

21     further, this is what I'm going to ask you:  What kind of insignia did

22     you have on your uniform?  Do you remember?

23        A.   I didn't have any insignia on the uniform except for what I said,

24     the white belt that was given to me by some military policeman.  I cannot

25     tell you exactly who it is because he went to the military police and


Page 31706

 1     then I was supposed to take a man, I think his name was Saban, that's

 2     what he they called him, I don't know his exact last name.  No, no, not

 3     Saban.  That was his brother.  It was -- well, I was there at the

 4     military command and I left from there, and they asked me to take this

 5     man up there to Trnopolje.  Of course I accepted, and I asked if they had

 6     a belt, perhaps, and they said, "Well, we have a white one if you want,"

 7     and I took that.  So the only thing I had by way of insignia was a white

 8     belt, nothing else.

 9        Q.   I'll stop reading the transcript for a moment now and I'll ask

10     you this:  Did you belong to the military police?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   What's the unit that you belonged to?

13        A.   Well, I belonged to the 43rd -- now, was it the TO -- whatever.

14     I don't know how to put this.  The 43rd Motorised Brigade of Prijedor.

15     Since I had come from Croatia as a JNA soldier and then I joined that

16     unit.

17        Q.   And did you have -- actually, what was it that Major Kuruzovic

18     headed at the time when you were in Trnopolje?

19        A.   Well, I don't know whether he headed the TO or that Crisis Staff

20     or -- I don't know.  I cannot tell you exactly what he was at the time.

21     At any rate, it's something like that probably.

22        Q.   At the time when you were in Trnopolje, did you belong to that

23     unit that was headed by Major Kuruzovic, or that establishment, if you

24     will?

25        A.   Yes.


Page 31707

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Did you wear a kokarda?

 2        A.   No.  Otherwise, my family had this - what do I call it? -

 3     Yugoslav partisan spirit.

 4        Q.   All right.  In this answer in line 9 and further on, when this

 5     man was asked whether these men who beat him had any insignia, now he

 6     says, and I quote:

 7             [In English] "Yes, yes, there were, there were.  There were

 8     kokardas also on their caps or on those caps.  They are round caps...,"

 9     et cetera.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Can we have now page 4 of this document, please.

11        Q.   [Interpretation] I'm going to ask you, first of all, what kind of

12     an accent do you have?

13        A.   Ijekavian.

14        Q.   Now I'm going to read this out to you what this witness says,

15     from line 1 onwards.

16             [In English] And I quote:

17             "The people that were in the room, this first time that you were

18     beaten, did any of the people in that room use a non-local dialect when

19     they spoke?

20             "A.  Yes.

21             "Q.  What was did dialect or accent that you recognised?

22             "A.  From Serbia and Montenegro.  They were people who came up

23     from outside most probably."

24             [Interpretation] So for the record just this:  Do you speak using

25     the same accent that people from Serbia use?


Page 31708

 1        A.   No.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  And now we need page 2 of this document, line 2 --

 3     Page 5, sorry, line 2.

 4             Now we are on a second beating this man described.  We are

 5     finished with the first one.  And for the second one, on lines 13 and 15

 6     of this page, he mentions the names of the people who took part in that

 7     second beating.  It's Mitrovic and Goran Nisevic.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In the question put to that person, there is no

 9     reference to beating but that the witness was taken by this man.

10             MR. LUKIC:  You are right, Your Honour.  I -- there was nobody

11     actually then mentioned for the second beating.

12        Q.   [Interpretation] Do you know who Mitrovic is and who

13     Goran Nisevic is?

14        A.   I cannot remember.  They were probably guards or somebody who had

15     come from the outside or perhaps they are some neighbours from there.  I

16     don't know.  There were quite a few people who were neighbours who came

17     there, too.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Since you've mentioned neighbours, was there a danger

19     of revenge?

20        A.   Well, probably, yes.  As a matter of fact, if I may, I can tell

21     you about a specific case.  One morning I came and a lady went out and

22     said that her husband was missing for two or three days or so.  And then

23     I informed Major Kuruzovic about that, and then he ordered me to stay

24     there, spend the night there at that collection centre.  I accepted that.

25     I spent the night at Dom with this Albanian man.  There was this small


Page 31709

 1     room there, and I made some kind of a bed there and I would spend two or

 2     three nights there.  While I spent those nights there, nothing of

 3     significance happened, no one was taken out, or this or that did not

 4     happen.  There was a girl, rather, that day she asked to see me and she

 5     said what her name was --

 6        Q.   Just a moment.  Does that have anything to do with revenge?  I

 7     mean, the story that you keep telling us?

 8        A.   Well, no.  I'm just telling you that nothing really happened.

 9     Somebody came, took that man out, and I think that even the guard who was

10     there, there with Major Kuruzovic, confirmed -- I don't know whether he

11     confirmed who he was or -- well, maybe.  Maybe.  Precisely for those

12     reasons.  Kuruzovic probably -- well, maybe some of the neighbours got

13     that man out and this man never came back.  It may be this kind of

14     revenge or something.

15        Q.   Now you say got him out.  So you keep taking me back all the

16     time.  On transcript page 31677 - our transcript, that is - I'm going to

17     read out the question and your answer, and then I'm going to ask another

18     question.  I quote:

19             [In English] "Q. And you were aware that detainees were killed in

20     Trnopolje camp; right?

21             "A.  Well, was it one or two cases.  That's something that I

22     heard."

23             [Interpretation] Were there any killings within the compound of

24     the collection centre of Trnopolje, and what did you hear?  Tell us.

25        A.   As far as I know, not a single killing was committed.  I know of


Page 31710

 1     one case, probably it was an elderly man and he died a natural death, and

 2     then the doctor asked what he was supposed to do.  And then I said that

 3     the man should be driven out and buried at a particular place, and that

 4     was done.  They drove him -- well, I don't know --

 5        Q.   All right.  Well, that's a natural death.

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   So you say you heard of one or two cases.  What is that?

 8        A.   As far as I know, in two cases there were two killings, as far as

 9     I can remember.  One was when people went somewhere outside the camp.

10     Now, did they go home, and a soldier went with them, and then while they

11     were at home they probably wandered off.  And what were they looking for?

12     Money, jewelry, whatever.  A patrol came along and these people were

13     killed.  And then when this young man came back, he said what it was that

14     had happened.  And then I went to Major Kuruzovic -- actually, it was the

15     following day.  And then I went to the major and informed him.

16     Immediately after that, after receiving this information, we got into the

17     car and we went to Kozarac up there so that he would see with the police

18     what it was that had happened.  So that is this one case.

19             The other case, I don't know.  Was he -- actually, did he give a

20     pass to two men to help some man do something.  And now whether this man

21     killed these people after that?  As far as I know, this case was even

22     prosecuted.  I cannot be sure whether there was a trial or not, but I

23     know that he did report that.  So all of that happened outside the

24     compound of the Trnopolje centre.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Document P7126 was shown to you.  This document


Page 31711

 1     contains a title, namely:  "Results of the 1993 census in Prijedor

 2     municipality (local communes)."  This is what I'm interested in.  P3791,

 3     that's the number.  This is a report from Kozarski Vjesnik.  This is what

 4     I'd be interested in:  Do you know whether there was a census in the

 5     municipality of Prijedor during the war in 1993?

 6        A.   As far as I know, no.  I think that a census took place every ten

 7     years or so.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, what's the typo?

10             MR. LUKIC:  Excuse me?  Typo?

11             JUDGE ORIE:  You said there is a typo in this.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Title.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Title.  I'm sorry.  I misunderstood that.  Please

14     proceed.

15             MR. LUKIC:  Probably I misspoke.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  It may be well on the record, but I was relying on

17     what I heard rather than on what I did read.  Please proceed.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.  Can we have on our screens 65 ter number

19     07157, please.

20        Q.   [Interpretation] This is a report on the work of a logistics

21     base.  The date is September 1992.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let's look at the last page, please.

23     [In English] Sorry.  It's a longer document.  Actually, I need page 2 in

24     both versions.  I'm sorry.  Because it's the end of this document, since

25     there are some additional documents.


Page 31712

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] You know Mirko Mudrinic, you've heard about him?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   He was the chief of the logistics base.

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Do you know what jurisdiction, what authority, Major Kuruzovic

 6     had over this base?

 7        A.   I don't know.  I think the Crisis Staff was there.  Now, what his

 8     jurisdiction was, I don't know.

 9        Q.   Did you go to the Cirkin Polje logistics base?

10        A.   Yes, on several occasions.

11        Q.   Do you know what the connection was between the logistics base

12     and the Crisis Staff?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   Do you know if the logistics base operated in September 1992?

15        A.   I wouldn't be able to say with any certainty because I don't know

16     when it operated.  At that time, I was already on the front line.  It was

17     probably operative at that time.

18             MR. LUKIC:  If we can have P3708, please.

19        Q.   [Interpretation] Before we see that document on the screen, a

20     document from the command of the 1st Krajina Corps, 9 July 1992, did you

21     receive reports about the possibility of attack by Muslim forces on the

22     collection centre of Trnopolje?

23        A.   Yes, Mr. Kuruzovic talked about that.

24        Q.   We see here in paragraph 4 - it could be the fifth paragraph but

25     it's linked with the fourth - a group of extremists --


Page 31713

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters have not found this text yet.

 2     Could we --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic --

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It's the last paragraph under item 1.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] "A group of 30-40 extremists from the village of

 7     Kozarac, near Prijedor, plan to attack the prison camp in the village of

 8     Trnopolje ..."

 9             Do you know if there were still remaining armed groups in the

10     villages around Kozarac in July 1992?

11        A.   Yes, I know that the army pursued them, constantly chased them.

12     I don't know how long it lasted.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now see P3891.

14        Q.   This is an overview of the conclusions adopted by the

15     Executive Council of Prijedor municipality.  In fact, we have a summary

16     of conclusions towards the bottom of the page, conclusions, orders, and

17     decisions by the Crisis Staff, War Presidency.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now we need page 3 in both

19     versions.  Third paragraph from below in English, and the third from the

20     top in B/C/S.

21        Q.   "Conclusion number," such and such, "of 2nd July 1992, forbidding

22     the individual release of persons from Trnopolje, Omarska, and Keraterm.

23     Signed Crisis Staff, War Presidency."

24             While working in Trnopolje, did you know who was allowed to let

25     people out of Trnopolje?  Who decided these things?


Page 31714

 1        A.   The only one who had the authority to release someone was

 2     Major Kuruzovic.  Without his permission, nobody was allowed out.  Nobody

 3     could leave the centre, go back home, or go to the centre of Prijedor or

 4     Banja Luka.  Nobody could do that without his permission, because there

 5     were check-points to pass and ...

 6        Q.   And do you know from whom he received such orders or permissions?

 7        A.   I don't know.  It could have been the Crisis Staff, the police,

 8     or the army.  I don't know exactly.

 9        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Puhalic.  That's all we had for you.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Before I ask Mr. Traldi whether he has any further

11     questions for the witness.

12                           Questioned by the Court:

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you explained that a white belt was given

14     to you by people from the military police.  I think you said:  Well, they

15     asked me whether I would take one, and then you accepted that.  Could you

16     tell us who that was?

17        A.   No.  I mean, I don't know which military policemen were there

18     when I returned to take that gentleman to Trnopolje.  And my trousers

19     were a bit too large, they were kind of falling off, and I asked, "Do you

20     maybe have a belt I could use," and they gave me that white belt.  I

21     believe it had the buckle of the military police on it.  So I accepted it

22     from them.  I thanked them and left.  That's all.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But the person, you didn't know that specific

24     military policeman?

25        A.   I don't know.  I believe he was -- I believe his name was


Page 31715

 1     Stevica Sredic.  He's actually a friend of mine who had been with me in

 2     Croatia.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's exactly the reason why I'm asking you,

 4     because you said:  Well, just a military policeman.  But at the same time

 5     you call him a friend.  So therefore, I'm -- because that's one of the

 6     answers you gave earlier - I'm referring to page 13 of the transcript -

 7     you said:

 8             "I just had a white belt that a friend gave me because I had no

 9     other belt to put on."

10             So I was puzzled by the fact that on the one hand you say a

11     military policeman and on the other hand you say it was a friend.  Was it

12     a friend, was it no friend?

13        A.   Yes, yes.  I said that a moment ago.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  When I asked you this question a minute ago, I said

15     could you tell us who that was, the person that gave you the belt.  I

16     read to you what your answer was.

17             "No.  I mean, I don't know which military policemen were there

18     when I returned to take that gentleman to Trnopolje.  And my trousers

19     were a bit too large, they were kind of falling off, and I asked, 'Do you

20     maybe have a belt I could use,' and they gave me that white belt.  I

21     believe it had the buckle of the military police on it.  So I accepted it

22     from them.  I thanked them and left.  That's all."

23             And then I asked you again:

24             "But the person, you didn't know that specific military

25     policeman?"


Page 31716

 1             Then you said:

 2             "I don't know.  I believe his name was Stevica Sredic.  He's

 3     actually a friend of mine who had been with me in Croatia."

 4             That is a change in your answer within a minute from not knowing

 5     to being a friend.  Do you have an explanation for that sudden change in

 6     your testimony?

 7        A.   As I was explaining that, I was trying to cast my mind back to

 8     remember who that person was.  When you asked me who the person was who

 9     had given me the belt, I tried to remember because there were several

10     people there.  And now I think - in fact I'm sure - that he is the one.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  I move to another subject.  Do you know

12     Mr. Mujkanovic?

13        A.   No.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you know Mr. Gutic?

15        A.   Gutic?  No.  I think the gentleman was a technician in that

16     service for assistance, the auxiliary service.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Do you have any specific reason for these

18     persons why they would mention your name or refer to you in any other way

19     and lying about your involvement in beatings?

20        A.   I don't know.  Believe me, I explained to you that I am not the

21     person that they are pointing to.  I don't know any other reason.  This

22     Gutic man, I believe he was with that Dr. Merdzanic.  I don't know if he

23     too was a doctor or a helper.  In any case, I saw them together.  And I

24     don't know Mr. Mujkanovic at all.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, you say:


Page 31717

 1             "... I explained to you that I am not the person that they are

 2     pointing to."

 3             Now, we've heard your answers in relation to Mr. Mujkanovic, but

 4     for the other person there seems to be no great doubt that he's referring

 5     to you, is there?

 6        A.   I don't know.  Maybe he's talking about me but I don't know for

 7     what reason why.  Maybe I was unable to help somebody when they asked.

 8     Maybe that's his way of getting back at me.  I don't know.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I leave it to that.

10             One final question:  What is the dialect which is usually spoken

11     by those who grow up in Prijedor?

12        A.   Ijekavian.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  And is that spoken in Serbia proper as well or is it

14     not?  If you know.  If you don't know, please tell us.

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The previous answer was

16     "Ijekavian."  And the witness's answer now is --

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe in Serbia Ekavian is

18     spoken.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, this may as a matter of fact resolve some

20     misunderstanding.  Yes, for that reason, page 26, line 6, perhaps, should

21     also be looked at in the English.

22             Mr. Traldi, any further questions for the witness?

23             MR. TRALDI:  No, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Then this concludes your testimony, Mr. Puhalic.

25     I'd like to thank you very much for coming the long way to The Hague and


Page 31718

 1     for having answered all the questions, questions put to you by the

 2     parties, questions put to you by the Bench, and I wish you a safe return

 3     home again.  You may follow the usher.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.  I hope I was able

 5     to assist to the extent of my abilities.  Thank you.

 6                           [The witness withdrew]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  The next witness can be escorted into the courtroom.

 8             Meanwhile, I'll start reading a decision, a decision which is

 9     delivered.  It is a decision by the Chamber on the admission of documents

10     used and tendered through the testimony of Vladimir Lukic on 8 through

11     10 September 2014.

12             Five documents tendered by the Prosecution were marked for

13     identification during the cross-examination of Witness Lukic.  These are

14     P6730, P6733, P6734, P6740, and P6742.

15             On the 18th of December, 2014, the Prosecution indicated via

16     e-mail that it no longer sought the admission of P6730.  This document

17     will therefore be marked not admitted.

18             P6733 was marked for identification pending a B/C/S translation.

19     A translation has now been uploaded into e-court, and under document

20     ID 0000-5130a-BCST.  The e-mail was -- an e-mail in this respect was sent

21     on the 8th of January of this year.

22             And Madam Registrar is instructed to attach the translation to

23     P6733, and the Chamber admits P6733 into evidence.

24                           [The witness entered court]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll deal with the remainder of the P numbers


Page 31719

 1     later.

 2             Good morning - yes, it's still morning - Mr. Radinkovic, I take

 3     it.  Mr. Radinkovic, before you give evidence the Rules require that you

 4     give the solemn declaration.  The text is handed out to you.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 6     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 7                           WITNESS:  RADOMIR RADINKOVIC

 8                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Radinkovic.  Please be seated.

10             Mr. Radinkovic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Stojanovic.  You

11     find Mr. Stojanovic to your left.  Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for

12     Mr. Mladic.

13             Please proceed.

14                           Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Radinkovic.

16        A.   Good day.

17        Q.   In keeping with our procedure here, would you please tell us

18     slowly your full name.

19        A.   Radomir Radinkovic.

20        Q.   Mr. Radinkovic, did you at one point in time give a written

21     statement to the Defence team of Mr. Karadzic?

22        A.   Yes.

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we call up

24     in e-court 65 ter 1D0295a [as interpreted].

25                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]


Page 31720

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could you repeat the number.

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, for the record,

 3     the number is 1D02395a.  Could we look at the last page, please.

 4        Q.   Mr. Radinkovic, it's now in front of you.  For the record, would

 5     you tell the Court if you recognise the signature on the last page?  Is

 6     it yours?

 7        A.   I recognise it.  It's mine.

 8        Q.   And another question:  The date, 8 December 2013, is it written

 9     in your hand?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Today when you gave the solemn declaration in this courtroom,

12     undertaking to tell the truth, and after reviewing what is written here,

13     do you still stand by this statement as truthful and given to the best of

14     your recollection?

15        A.   I stand by it.  It is truthful and given to the best of my

16     recollection.

17        Q.   If I were to put the same questions to you again, would you

18     answer the same?

19        A.   Certainly.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I should like to

22     tender the statement of Radomir Radinkovic, 65 ter 1D02395a.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections?

24             MS. EDGERTON:  Just one observation, if I may, Your Honour.

25     Below paragraph number 40, there is reference to a document bearing the


Page 31721

 1     number P3724, and that's a Karadzic -- a P number from the Karadzic

 2     Prosecution, and in this case that document has the P number 2908.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D2395a receives number D900,

 5     Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 7             The statement of -- D900 is admitted into evidence.

 8             Perhaps one question, Mr. Stojanovic.  Often the format of

 9     statements taken by the Defence is such that we know who took the

10     statement, when the statement was taken, who were present.  That is

11     different here.  Is there any --

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I may have been mistaken, Mr. Stojanovic.  One

14     second.  Yes, you asked about the statement taken by the Karadzic

15     Defence.  Still, dates, persons present, and who took the statement is

16     still sometimes interesting information, but I accept that this is at

17     least not common when you take statements from the Karadzic Defence and

18     adopt them in the Mladic case.

19             Please proceed.

20             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  At this

21     point in time, I would like to ask that I be allowed to tender a table

22     that has to do with matching adjudicated facts as you had suggested to us

23     in previous situations that were similar.  It's 65 ter number 1D05332.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Any -- I have -- is it on the ...

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think so, Your Honour.


Page 31722

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I'm just --

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It would be helpful if we have that on the

 3     screen.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's the table of concordance as to

 5     adjudicated facts identified in the witness statement.  Yes.  And that is

 6     now -- the number is 1D02395a.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             Ms. Edgerton.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I was confused by the fact that what we have on our

13     screen now is a table of concordance which is not exactly the same as the

14     one I looked at before I came to court.  I looked at the one which was

15     attached to the 92 ter motion.  But it's clear now that the table of

16     concordance, as we see it now on our screen, accurately refers to

17     1D02395a.

18             No further objections?

19             MS. EDGERTON:  Just again another observation, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please.

21             MS. EDGERTON:  In this table of concordance there is for some

22     reason the text of an adjudicated fact, and with respect to facts 465,

23     473, and 484, the rendering of the adjudicated fact is -- is not entirely

24     accurate.  So while we can consider, of course, what the witness says

25     about the fact to be significant, just a note of caution:  We can't rely


Page 31723

 1     on this rendering of the adjudicated fact in this table of concordance,

 2     but all the other numbering is perfectly fine.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, any reason why the text of the

 4     adjudicated fact does not fully reflect what the Chamber admitted?

 5             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we used a text that

 6     is derived from the adjudicated facts as stated in our decision.  If

 7     there is any difference, we will certainly check that.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Or is it that you referred to the Karadzic

 9     adjudicated facts rather than to the Mladic adjudicated facts?

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That statement is from the

11     Karadzic case as well, and it is an integral part of the statement that

12     is before us and that has been admitted into evidence in this case and

13     that we are tendering for admission into evidence in this case.  And it

14     includes paragraphs 8, 9, 10, 11, and 13 of the statement of the witness

15     we have today.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  This all happens if statements are copied from

17     other cases.  Let's move on.  I do not understand the observations to be

18     an objection.

19             Madam Registrar, the table of concordance would receive number?

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D5332 receives number D901,

21     Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  D901 is admitted.

23             Please proceed.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I just for my understanding, Mr. Stojanovic,

25     ask:  In this column "Text of Adjudicated Fact," are these the


Page 31724

 1     adjudicated facts literally quoted from our case in Mladic or from the

 2     Karadzic case?  Because in the heading of that column it's unclear if it

 3     relates to Mladic or Karadzic case.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] As far as I understand our

 5     Case Manager, Your Honour, these are adjudicated facts -- or, rather,

 6     this is the text of adjudicated facts from our case, the Mladic case, and

 7     they fully correspond to adjudicated facts in the Karadzic case.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Stojanovic, I'm afraid that this is wrong.

 9     The adjudicated fact in the Mladic case number 473 reads:

10             "Detainees at the Manjaca camp witnessed beatings being inflicted

11     on other detainees."

12             And if you look in your -- on the list we just have admitted into

13     evidence, we see the text in the column "Text of Adjudicated Fact" is

14     different from that one.  I just want to make you aware of this fact that

15     it seems to be that these facts are taken from the Karadzic case and not

16     from the Mladic case.  I just wanted to put that on the record.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, it's your responsibility if you rely

18     on your Case Manager, that you verify and you're responsible for the

19     accuracy of what you're telling us.  And I would urge you to be more --

20             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  -- serious in that respect.

22             Please proceed.

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Certainly, Your Honour.  And we

24     are going to check whether there are any differences involved.

25             With your leave, Your Honours, I would like to tender two other


Page 31725

 1     documents accompanying this statement:  1D -- actually, 65 ter --

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could all other

 3     microphones please be switched off.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] -- 038.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The 65 ter number seems to be 65 ter 07038.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Is that the number you wanted to refer to,

 7     Mr. Stojanovic?

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour.

 9     07038.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  In the absence of any objections, Madam Registrar.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 7038 receives number D902, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  D902 is admitted.

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think that the time has come

14     to take the break.  And after the break, I would like to read out the

15     witness's summary, and then I'd like to put a few questions to the

16     witness after the break.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, you announced that you would tender two more

18     documents.  I think we've heard of one.  Is that -- Mr. Stojanovic, do

19     you have another one or ...

20             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, no, Your Honour.  Since this

21     other document already has a P number, so there will be no need for me to

22     tender it.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So you'd like to tender only one document, and

24     you said two.  But that's hereby corrected.

25             We'll take the break.


Page 31726

 1             Witness, we'll take a break of 20 minutes and we'd like to see

 2     you back after that, and then we'll not limit ourselves to administrative

 3     matters.  Although, attesting to a statement is not really an

 4     administrative matter, but then we'll go further to the substance of your

 5     testimony.  You may follow the usher.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7                           [The witness stands down]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at 20 minutes past 12.00.

 9                           --- Recess taken at 12.00 p.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 12.27 p.m.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we ask the next witness to be escorted into

12     the courtroom, and I think it can be -- Madam Registrar, it can be -- the

13     witness can be escorted already.  It's very short.

14             It is about Witness Ratko Skrbic, who is scheduled to testify

15     next week on the 23rd of February.

16             The Prosecution has indicated that it will not need to

17     cross-examine this witness if no further information is elicited beyond

18     what is contained in the statement.

19             Mr. Lukic, which means that you're invited again to postpone the

20     testimony of that witness.  We have to check with you whether you intend

21     to put any additional questions to the witness, because that's the

22     condition under which the Defence -- the Prosecution refrains from

23     cross-examination.  And if so, then you should make that part of your

24     discussions with the Registrar.  I don't know whether the meeting has

25     been scheduled already or has taken place already, but in order to


Page 31727

 1     explore the practical implications of what you suggested and that is to

 2     hear those witnesses through videolink rather than to change their status

 3     from 92 ter to 92 bis.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  Only to add to that I think that

 5     at this moment we have three witnesses in Belgrade who could go this way.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but we are waiting for a report --

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah, I know --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  -- on your meeting the practical --

 9             MR. LUKIC:  -- but we didn't have a meeting yet with the

10     Registry.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  No, but, of course, you'll understand that the

12     Registrar may have his own problems, and finally we'll decide the issue

13     once we have received all the information we would need; that is,

14     practical information included.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And it's clear that the witness will not be

16     called for next week.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

19                           [The witness takes the stand]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Then before we start, Mr. Stojanovic, the Chamber

21     was informed that e-court is not functioning well.  I don't know whether

22     it will be -- it's not functioning at all.  Therefore, I suggest that you

23     start by reading your summary, that if you have any further questions to

24     the witness, that the witness will be provided with the redacted

25     statement, and that as soon as you need to call certain documents which


Page 31728

 1     cannot be seen on e-court, that you either have a hard copy which could

 2     then be put on the ELMO or that we would have to stop because we can't

 3     continue without looking at relevant documents you would like to put to

 4     the witness.  At the same time, you are also invited to see whether you

 5     can arrange your examination-in-chief in such a way that we would not run

 6     into trouble easily and that you would perhaps start with those questions

 7     for which we do not necessarily need e-court.

 8             This caveat is on the record.  Please proceed.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honour, I

10     would like to read out the summary of Witness Radomir Radinkovic's

11     statement.

12             Witness Radomir Radinkovic, when the war broke out in

13     Bosnia-Herzegovina, was mobilised as desk officer for security and

14     intelligence affairs in the 1st Krajina Corps, holding the rank of staff

15     sergeant.  He carried out different tasks there up until the end of the

16     war; and inter alia, he spent part of his military service in the POW

17     camp at Manjaca practically from the moment when it was established up

18     until when it was disbanded.

19             His task was security assessment of POWs, security support for

20     the camp, and operative work with POWs, reporting to the superior

21     command, and proposing measures of protection.  These reports were sent

22     to the superior command at least once a week and, when necessary, every

23     day.

24             In his statement he describes what the camp looked like, the

25     facilities where the POWs were put up, as well as the structure and


Page 31729

 1     organisation of the security for prisoners and the role of the civilian

 2     police in securing the camp.  He speaks in detail about how POWs were

 3     treated at the moment when they were taken in, and he speaks about their

 4     screening.

 5             He says that there was a commission for receiving them that

 6     consisted of the camp commander, a doctor, a military policeman, and a

 7     security and intelligence organ who identified the persons that were

 8     brought in, made them aware of their rights and responsibilities, and

 9     afterwards made sure that they were medically examined and put in the

10     right facilities.

11             The witness explains certain incidents that occurred in the

12     Manjaca camp and incidents related to the transportation and bringing in

13     of POWs from Prijedor, Kljuc, and Sanski Most at Manjaca.  After they

14     were admitted into the camp, they were treated in accordance with the

15     status of prisoners of war according to the Geneva Conventions concerning

16     regulation and verification, regular food supplies, sufficient quantities

17     of drinking water, and medical care, regular visits from the ICRC, and

18     accommodation, which meant beds for the officers who were POWs and the

19     rest slept on straw and had a sufficient number of blankets.

20             Finally, he speaks about his own view of the adjudicated facts,

21     investigations, and measures that were taken against persons from the

22     security of the camp who unlawfully carried out their duties as well as

23     their prosecution.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We have just finished the

25     translation of the summary, so we did not hear the question put by


Page 31730

 1     Mr. Stojanovic.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, the interpreters had just finished

 3     to interpret your summary when you already put the question to the

 4     witness.  So would you please put the question to the witness again so

 5     that we receive interpretation of that question.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

 8        Q.   Mr. Radinkovic, I would just like to ask you to tell the

 9     Trial Chamber what this looked like, the internal and external security

10     of the Manjaca facility.  What did these two forms of security imply?

11        A.   Internal security was just the isolated part where the POWs were,

12     and external security pertained to the entire camp; that is to say,

13     barbed wire over 2 metres high, and there was just one gate through which

14     the camp could be entered, and there was barbed wire all around.  In

15     addition to this barbed wire, the external one, the hangars where the

16     prisoners were were also surrounded by a different wire, again 2 metres

17     high, and there was this entrance.  This was locked all the time.  It is

18     only military policemen that could unlock this, when they were bringing

19     people in for interrogations, et cetera.  As for this area, no one had

20     access except for the patrol of military policemen who were on duty on

21     that day -- I beg your pardon.  As for civilians, it was the

22     International Red Cross and from time to time journalists could enter

23     that area and be with the POWs.

24        Q.   Thank you.  I would just pause for a second for the

25     interpretation to finish.  The next thing I want to ask you, and you did


Page 31731

 1     speak about this partly in your statement, civilian police inspectors,

 2     did they have an opportunity, and if so, on the basis of which procedure,

 3     did they have the opportunity to enter that area and have contact with

 4     the POWs?

 5        A.   The civilian police could not enter that other area at all, this

 6     so-called second security area.  They could only reach the offices where

 7     we were, we the security organs, where we were interviewing these

 8     persons.  And they were in this other part, the more open one, the more

 9     open part.  So it is only there that civilian policemen could come, and

10     then certain prisoners would be brought to them for interviews or

11     interrogation.

12        Q.   When somebody was brought for an interview with an inspector of

13     the civilian police, would any of you - the security detail of the

14     facility or anyone from the administration of the facility - participate

15     in the interview or attend the interview?

16        A.   Certainly not, because we were a military structure and they were

17     a civilian structure.  They were doing their job.  We were responsible

18     for providing a military patrol to bring that person.  They would have to

19     report to us about anything they did.

20        Q.   When you were receiving a new batch of POWs and when you were

21     carrying out the procedure you described, did you notice any people with

22     visible injuries?

23        A.   Yes, unfortunately.  There were many more cases than we had

24     expected, unfortunately, and that's why we introduced this medical

25     checkup during the admission process, to assess the gravity of injuries,


Page 31732

 1     bruises, or whatever.  And because a large group was brought from one

 2     collection centre, people who were emaciated in a really bad state, we

 3     also started making records.

 4        Q.   When you were admitting someone into Manjaca, if you noticed that

 5     a person had visible injuries, where would it be recorded?  Where would

 6     it be noted?

 7        A.   The commission I mentioned would report it to the camp commander,

 8     and we would give our proposals in case of serious injuries, and there

 9     were really serious injuries, we would make a proposal to transfer these

10     people to the hospital.  And since the doctor who was there could not

11     provide adequate medical care, they would be transported to a hospital in

12     Prijedor.

13        Q.   Inside the facility at Manjaca itself, was there some sort of

14     infirmary, some sort of medical facility where such people could be given

15     medical assistance and care?

16        A.   Yes.  We called it the medical hub.  One room where a paramedic

17     was constantly on duty.  And among the prisoners, there was always at

18     least one doctor.  And, of course, in that infirmary there was

19     medication, antibiotics, medical supplies that could be dispensed to the

20     prisoners.  And persons on duty from each pavilion could wake up the

21     policemen on duty and ask for help.  There were cases when at 3.00 a.m.

22     in the morning, a person who needed to be transported to the hospital was

23     provided with transport.

24        Q.   How did this commission service operate, the representatives of

25     the prisoners vis-ā-vis the administration of the camp?


Page 31733

 1        A.   Each pavilion, each hangar as we called it, had their monitor,

 2     and a senior representative who was allowed, who had the right to come to

 3     the gate and tell the policemen if they needed something, and then this

 4     message would be transmitted to our service and we would decide what

 5     needed to be done.

 6        Q.   Was there a time when the administration of the camp exerted any

 7     influence on the prisoners regarding who they would elect as their

 8     representative?

 9        A.   No, no.  They elected completely on their own the person whom

10     they trusted the most, and they even selected the head of their kitchen,

11     the person who would cook for them, and it was entirely their decision.

12        Q.   I'll ask you about a specific name you mention in your statement,

13     Dr. Eniz Sabanovic.  Would you tell the Court, do you know what happened

14     with this doctor?  Do you know how long he was at Manjaca, until when?

15        A.   Until he was exchanged.  I can't remember exactly when he was

16     sent out to be exchanged, but he was among the first to arrive at Manjaca

17     and one of the first to be exchanged.  From the very first day, we

18     appointed him medical doctor for POWs, and he carried out that duty to

19     our utmost satisfaction and to the satisfaction of the prisoners.

20        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Radinkovic, for your answers.  That would be all

21     for now.  Thank you.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

23             Mr. Radinkovic, you'll now be cross-examined by Ms. Edgerton.

24     You find her to your right.  Ms. Edgerton is counsel for the Prosecution.

25             Please proceed.


Page 31734

 1                           Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton:

 2        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Radinkovic.  Maybe you remember me.  I

 3     cross-examined you two years ago as well.

 4        A.   Good afternoon.  I remember you, fondly.

 5        Q.   So I'm going to cross-examine you again today.  And I just want

 6     to start by clearing up a couple of things from your statement and tying

 7     them together, perhaps a little more coherently.  Now, when you said in

 8     your statement that you testified against -- in the Banja Luka District

 9     Court against a group of military policemen who were prosecuted for

10     beating Filipovic and Bender to death, that was in 2006, wasn't it?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And the military policemen you were talking about were VRS

13     military policemen; right?

14        A.   Yes, in the security of the camp itself.

15        Q.   And this trial wasn't a military trial?

16        A.   The military service did their part of the criminal

17     investigation --

18        Q.   Well, no --

19        A.   -- to establish what they had done in the compound of the camp.

20        Q.   Mr. Radinkovic, I didn't ask you what the military service did,

21     did I?  I asked you:  This trial wasn't a military trial, was it?

22        A.   No, it was a civilian court.  The district court in Banja Luka.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.

24             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] We object to the vagueness of

25     the question.  Twice we heard the question "military trial."  It creates


Page 31735

 1     confusion.  What does it mean, "military trial"?  Is it a trial against

 2     military personnel or trial before a military court?  And it would be a

 3     military court in that year when the trial was held.  That's why I

 4     believe that the question phrased in this way, to include words "military

 5     court," is vague and could be confusing.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But the witness has answered the question.

 7     Apparently it has not confused him, and the question is not such that

 8     it's inadmissible for being too vague.  Therefore the objection, although

 9     post-answer, is denied.

10             Please proceed.

11             MS. EDGERTON:

12        Q.   And those policemen in whose trial you testified were convicted

13     for the murders and other crimes and those -- that's the group you refer

14     to at paragraph 30 of your statement; right?

15        A.   Yes, precisely.

16        Q.   Okay.  I also just want to be a little bit clearer on your

17     function in Manjaca.  As intelligence and security officer, your job was

18     to interrogate prisoners; right?  That's what you did at Manjaca.

19        A.   Yes.  That was one of the objectives.  There were other ones but

20     that was the basic one.

21        Q.   So your job was to talk to the people who'd been brought in and

22     to find out whether they'd been captured in combat; right?

23        A.   Yes.  Among other things, we were supposed, if we didn't have

24     enough information about the captured person, to look for information

25     ourselves, information related to security.


Page 31736

 1        Q.   So information relating to whatever military unit they might have

 2     come from, the name of the unit, the type of the unit, things like that;

 3     right?

 4        A.   That kind of information, too.  But since it was 1992, the very

 5     beginning of the war, we were also looking for information about possible

 6     preparations for actions against the Army of Republika Srpska that could

 7     be ongoing among that population.  We were looking for any relevant facts

 8     that would be of use to the army.

 9        Q.   And your professional superior would have been the chief -- or

10     actually, the 1st Krajina Corps' assistant commander for security; right?

11        A.   Yes, our superior - the superior to all of us, the team working

12     at Manjaca - was the recipient of our reports.

13        Q.   And that was Colonel Bogojevic, who you mention in your

14     statement?

15        A.   Before him there was Lieutenant-Colonel Stevilovic.  He was

16     killed and Bogojevic came to replace him.

17        Q.   And Bogojevic then was a member of the staff of the

18     1st Krajina Corps, wasn't he?

19        A.   Yes, precisely.

20        Q.   So he could directly issue orders to you, but he could also pass

21     on orders from his own superiors; right?

22        A.   Well, that's the way it worked.  We were sending our reports to

23     the command and we also received reports from our superior commands; that

24     is to say, the command of the 1st Krajina Corps.

25        Q.   Right.  So the reports that you talked about in your statement in


Page 31737

 1     paragraphs 14 and 15, they would actually go a couple of places.  They

 2     would go up your professional chain, through Colonel Bogojevic to

 3     General Talic, and they would also go to Colonel Popovic, wouldn't they?

 4        A.   We as professional security organs were not really required to

 5     provide all security assessments to the camp commander.  We were required

 6     to provide them exclusively to our professional security department and

 7     Mr. Bogojevic, and we also briefed the camp commander verbally on a

 8     regular basis so that he should be aware of some things that might be

 9     relevant to the camp.

10        Q.   Now, I just want to get you to confirm some things you --

11     actually, before I get there, I want to ask you one more thing, then.

12     We've heard evidence from other security officers in this case who talk

13     about the professional chain of responsibility within the VRS, and I

14     wonder if you can confirm that, militarily speaking, the security and

15     intelligence officer was the professional organ in charge of the military

16     police?  That's right, isn't it?

17        A.   Well, the Military Police Battalion was part of the command of

18     the 1st Krajina Corps.  It was available for the corps command to use

19     automatically by virtue of their position, and normally all of us

20     security organs went about our job professionally.  There were not many

21     variations in the way we worked.  We all provided official notes up along

22     the chain of command.

23        Q.   I didn't ask you about whether or not you did your job

24     professionally.  I wanted -- I asked you about whether, militarily

25     speaking, the military police were professionally subordinate to the


Page 31738

 1     security and intelligence organ.  That's how it worked in the Bosnian

 2     Serb Army, didn't it?

 3        A.   Yes, precisely.  One squad from the Military Police Battalion was

 4     detached to provide security to the camp.  It was directly under the

 5     command of the 1st Krajina Corps, and this military police was part of

 6     the security.

 7        Q.   Now, just to talk about the camp in more detail for a few

 8     minutes, I want to get you to confirm a little bit of the evidence that

 9     you gave in the Karadzic case.  You can confirm that the prisoners that

10     came to Manjaca camp were brought to Manjaca camp in June, July, and

11     August 1992 came from Kljuc and Prijedor and Sanski Most, among other

12     places; right?

13        A.   I can confirm that.  That's approximately the chronology.  They

14     came in separate batches from Kljuc, then from Prijedor or Sanski Most, I

15     don't know the exact sequence.  But they came in separate groups, never

16     together.

17        Q.   And the camp population numbered in the thousands.  At one point

18     in your Karadzic evidence, you said it got up as high as 4.000 or

19     4.500 detainees.  Do you confirm that today?

20        A.   I did not confirm that then and I cannot confirm it now.  At no

21     point had there been more than 2.400 people, considering that the overall

22     number that turned over through the Manjaca camp was 4.400 people.  There

23     was no moment when there were 4.500 people there inside together.  They

24     couldn't fit in, simply.

25             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honours, now that e-court is working, I


Page 31739

 1     wonder if we could have a look at Mr. Radinkovic's testimony in the

 2     Karadzic case.  It was 65 ter number 32013.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Indeed, luckily enough, e-court is functioning

 4     again.

 5             MS. EDGERTON:  And just if I may, Your Honour, so that we all

 6     stay bright until the next break, I wonder, completely aside, if we can

 7     ask for the temperature to be reduced in the courtroom just by a couple

 8     of degrees.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  A couple of degrees might make us freeze, but it is

10     relatively warm in the courtroom and we'll --

11                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar had asked for it already.

13             MS. EDGERTON:  Wonderful.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

15             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.  65 ter number 32013.  I'd like to go

16     to e-court page 8, please.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Apparently there is still a problem with the

18     e-court.  What we could do is to take an earlier break than usual.  That

19     would be a break lasting until 25 minutes past 1.00 and then have a last

20     50 minutes until the adjournment for the day.

21             Then --

22             MS. EDGERTON:  I mean, I could read the testimony out,

23     Your Honours, because, you know, it hasn't been translated into B/C/S.

24     That's the nature of transcript.  But I know Your Honours prefer to have

25     the witness see it and the hard copy I have -- oh, wonderful.


Page 31740

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Apparently we have something on our screen now.

 2             MS. EDGERTON:  Could we try going to page 8, please.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll continue for the time being.

 4             MS. EDGERTON:

 5        Q.   All right.  Now, Mr. Radinkovic, we had this same argument when

 6     you testified two years ago.  You said originally, when I asked you the

 7     question, at line 1, that the maximum at one time was around 2.000

 8     because some people left and new ones came.  And then I reminded you

 9     about the evidence that you gave in the state court during one of your

10     previous testimonies.  At line 6 -- pardon me, at line 7, I reminded you:

11             "... there you said that the population ranged, actually."

12             And that it was almost 3.000.  And then further you said at one

13     point it went up to maybe 4- to 4500.

14             And then responded to me and the Judges in the Karadzic trial,

15     you said, and I quote:

16             "That's what I said.  It varied.  Sometimes there were more,

17     sometimes less."

18             So you told me a couple of minutes ago that the population was

19     never above something in the neighbourhood of 2.000 but you testified

20     two years ago that at one point it went up to 4.000 or 4.500.  Are you

21     changing the evidence you gave?

22        A.   I am not changing my evidence.  I said before the court in

23     Sarajevo that the number varied and there could never have been

24     4.000 people at one time.  And I said here in the Karadzic case that the

25     number varied because people came and went and I stand behind that.


Page 31741

 1        Q.   Well, let's look at what you said to the court in Sarajevo during

 2     your testimony in the Kondic case.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  It's 65 ter number 32015, e-court page 68.

 4        Q.   All right.  We have -- I got a copy two years ago of your

 5     evidence in the Kondic case, and here at page 68 you were asked about the

 6     prison population.  At line 7, you were asked:

 7             "Can you make an estimate?"

 8             You responded:

 9             "Well, maybe 4-, 4.500.  This is my rough estimate.  I did not

10     receive them my -- of my own or send them to exchange."

11             So you said in the court in Sarajevo 4.500.  If it was a small

12     number, maybe we wouldn't be quibbling, but this isn't quibbling.  We are

13     talking about a difference of over 2.000 prisoners, Mr. Radinkovic.  Are

14     you changing your evidence from what you gave to the court in Sarajevo?

15        A.   I can't see that statement in our language.  I can see it only in

16     English.  But I know very well that I maintained in Sarajevo as well as

17     in the Karadzic case that there could never have been that many people at

18     any one time.  I know that there are books, log-books, registering the

19     exact number of prisoners of war at -- on any particular day in the camp.

20     It was not our job to keep these records.  Our job was to process them

21     and to organise various activities related to exchange, et cetera, tasks

22     that we received along the chain of command.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  That's a long answer, Witness, but let's try to get

24     to -- what could be and what was registered is one thing.  Did you say in

25     the state court, and you say you can't read it, it's not in B/C/S, I


Page 31742

 1     again read it slowly to you:

 2             "All the records were sent to the command and the command was

 3     forwarding them to authorities."

 4             And that's -- Ms. Edgerton, I want you to do it yourself.  Why is

 5     that?  Because where the number is mentioned here, it starts apparently

 6     on the previous page what the subject matter is.  So therefore, for us to

 7     know exactly what we are talking about, we should go one page back at

 8     least.  That's one.

 9             Second, where the witness, from what I understood, may challenge

10     whether this is what he said, although he did apparently not or not

11     unambiguously in the Karadzic case, is there any audio recording?  Is

12     there -- how is this transcribed?  Where does it come from?

13             MS. EDGERTON:  Just by way of information, this is transcribed

14     from an audio recording of the witness's testimony in the Kondic

15     proceedings.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  And is that audio recording available if need

17     be?

18             MS. EDGERTON:  Absolutely.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, okay.  Then could we go back to the previous

20     page to find out whether these numbers are numbers about persons in

21     Manjaca at one time.

22             MS. EDGERTON:  Absolutely.

23        Q.   I'll begin -- we'll go back to page 67 of your testimony in the

24     Kondic case.  And starting at line 16, the question from the prosecutor

25     was:


Page 31743

 1             "Right.  You said that there were four stables with prisoners."

 2             You responded:

 3             "Yes."

 4             "And that there were up to 3.000 people in the camp."

 5             You responded:

 6             "Yes.

 7             "How many people in total went through the camp?"

 8             You responded:

 9             "I don't know.  I didn't work alone there.

10             "But according to the records and the statistics?"

11             You responded:

12             "All the records were sent to the Command and the Command was

13     forwarding to other authorities."

14             "So you don't know?"  Was the question.

15             You responded:

16             "I don't know."

17             And then you were asked:

18             "Can you make an estimate?"

19             "Well, maybe 4, 4.500.  This is my rough estimate.  I did not

20     receive them myself ... of my own or send them to exchange."

21             And then it goes on to ask you specific questions about the

22     prisoners.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Is there -- Witness, do you understand the English

24     language?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.


Page 31744

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you take off your earphones for a second.

 2             Ms. Edgerton, what we see on the last line is how many people

 3     went through the camp, whereas your focus and what you did put to the

 4     witness was very much how many prisoners there were at one point in time.

 5     Unless you have other sources to bring this to the attention of the

 6     witness or if you have another explanation as why you translate prisoners

 7     going through Manjaca camp into prisoners being at one time in Manjaca

 8     camp, I think we should be very careful not to mislead the witness.

 9             MS. EDGERTON:  Absolutely.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could we please go back again to page 67, because

11     I think the relevant question was not --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it's the last line.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, it is the last line and you read it out to

14     the witness, but it didn't go into the transcript of today's hearing.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  But it should be in the transcript.  So

16     perhaps you read or I could read the last line, which is the introduction

17     to what then follows on the next page is:

18             "How many people in total went through the camp?"

19             Then it's good that we have a correct -- an accurate transcript,

20     but do you have any explanation as to why you translate this into 4- or

21     4500 people at the same time in the camp which you have put several times

22     to the witness?

23             MS. EDGERTON:  No, I -- only to go back to his assertion in the

24     Karadzic case, and completely accepting my misstatement of course,

25     Your Honours, and apologies, and I can apologise to the witness as well.


Page 31745

 1     But I do go back to his testimony in the Karadzic case where he did agree

 2     to that number.  And I will be asking for that page in the Karadzic

 3     transcript to be tendered.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, he -- whether he did or not, we'll -- if you

 5     put it again -- at least in this transcript, there is no accurate basis

 6     for what you put to the witness, and we'll now further look then at

 7     Karadzic.  And of course there, we have to ask ourselves how it was put

 8     to the witness then and what his exact answers are.  So I take it that

 9     you will bring us there.

10             MS. EDGERTON:  Understood, Your Honours.  Perhaps we could go

11     back to then 65 ter number --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but --

13             MS. EDGERTON:  Oh.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  The witness can put on his earphones again.

15             MS. EDGERTON:  Perhaps we could go back to 65 ter number 32013,

16     which is the transcript of testimony from the Karadzic case we looked at

17     earlier, e-court page 8.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  And if you would tell us first of all what you

19     intend to read out to the witness so that we already can cast an eye on

20     it.

21             MS. EDGERTON:  Uh-huh.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  And perhaps also previous page, because it -- the

23     page starts with -- it therefore reads that number.  Then, of course, we

24     would have to know what the question was.

25             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honours, we --


Page 31746

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I see there at the bottom of the page.  Perhaps

 2     you start -- perhaps you start at line 20.  That gives the best

 3     introduction to what then follows.

 4             MS. EDGERTON:  Yes, thank you.

 5        Q.   Mr. Radinkovic, I'm going to --

 6        A.   Can I get this in Serbian, in B/C/S?

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  You have to carefully listen.  There is no B/C/S

 8     version of this document.  If there is any need to hear it again --

 9             THE WITNESS:  Okay.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  -- just ask.  Madam Prosecutor will slowly read it.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can it be enlarged a bit, the lower part of the

13     page.

14             MS. EDGERTON:

15        Q.   So, Mr. Radinkovic, to stay on this topic for a little while

16     more, just to make sure we have your position correctly, I'd like to read

17     to you some portion of your cross-examination in the Karadzic case

18     relating to the number of prisoners.  From line 20 in your transcript, I

19     asked you:

20             "First, you can confirm, I take it, that particularly between

21     June and August 1992 Manjaca received a massive number of prisoners;

22     right?"

23             And you said:

24             "Yes, and even the number of these arrivals is stated.

25             "Q.  Well -- okay, talking about the number, at its -- its


Page 31747

 1     fullest, the prisoner population at Manjaca was in excess of

 2     3.500 people; right?"

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  If we could go over to the next page, please.

 4        Q.   And then your answer was:

 5             "It never reached that number at any one time.  The maximum at

 6     one time was around 2.000, because some people left and new ones came.

 7     They departed to be exchanged.  They were transported to third countries

 8     or elsewhere.  And some new people came."

 9             And then my question was:

10             "Well, now, are you quite sure about those figures?  Because I've

11     read your testimony that you gave in 2011 to the state court in

12     Bosnia-Herzegovina, and there you said that the population ranged,

13     actually.  At page 29, you said it was almost 3.000, and then at page 68

14     you said at one point it went up to maybe 4-, 4.500?"

15             And then your answer was:

16             "That's what I said.  It varied.  Sometimes there were more,

17     sometimes less.  That's what I was trying to explain."

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness take off his earphones again.

19             MS. EDGERTON:

20        Q.   And --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I have to interrupt you, Ms. Edgerton.

22             MS. EDGERTON:  Oh, of course.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you take off your earphones again.

24             MS. EDGERTON:  I was just reading the full transcript before

25     explaining what had happened.


Page 31748

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Ms. Edgerton, I earlier referred to misleading

 2     the witness by translating "through the camp" into being 4- to 4.500 at

 3     one point in time.  I noticed that the question in the Karadzic case was

 4     as misleading as I considered the question you put to the witness today.

 5     And then the answer of the witness is not unambiguous, because he said:

 6     "That's what I said.  It varied."

 7             Now, in your question you are talking about almost 3.000 and at

 8     one point on page 68, which, in my view, is not accurate, referring to

 9     4-, 4.500, and then the witness did not say yes.  He said:

10             "That's what I said.  It varied."

11             Now that is a very ambiguous answer.  So to put now to the

12     witness that he committed himself to 4- to 4.500 would be not admissible.

13     If you -- and I think the witness is pretty -- after this answer, after

14     line 11, what I see on my screen, I think you continued about, I think,

15     background, et cetera, and is not about the numbers anymore.

16             In view of our earlier ruling that it was misleading the witness

17     then, it was misleading to put to the witness something not exactly what

18     he said in the state court, to continue now with the Karadzic case where

19     the same happened would be just as inadmissible as it was already in the

20     Karadzic -- was already earlier here today in this courtroom.  And -- in

21     my view -- but perhaps no one was aware that in Karadzic it was

22     inadmissible as well.  In my view, but of course I'm not one of the

23     Judges in that case, but I see that you are doing exactly the same what

24     we considered not inadmissible.

25             MS. EDGERTON:  If I may, Your Honour, my intention was just to


Page 31749

 1     explain to the witness after seeing the whole passage that we had just

 2     looked at his earlier testimony and that I had misconstrued his earlier

 3     testimony, to see what parts of this he would agree to.  I had absolutely

 4     no intention to go further than to clarify the picture with the witness,

 5     Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It may be clear where as far as the Chamber is

 7     concerned the boundaries are.  We'll ask the witness to put on his

 8     earphones again, and perhaps it's better not to refer to two instances

 9     of, in my view, inappropriate questioning -- inadmissible questioning

10     when you want to elicit further evidence from the witness.  If you could

11     keep that in the back of your mind.

12             MS. EDGERTON:  No --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

14             MS. EDGERTON:  -- of course, Your Honours.  Just --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Please --

16             MS. EDGERTON:  -- in fairness I would like to explain to the

17     witness.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

19             MS. EDGERTON:

20        Q.   Now, to be completely fair, Mr. Radinkovic, it looks like I have

21     misconstrued your answer in your previous testimony in the Sarajevo

22     court, and please tell me if I now can put to you your position

23     accurately.

24             Your testimony in the Sarajevo court in the Kondic case was to

25     the effect that 4- to 4.500 people in total in your estimate came through


Page 31750

 1     Manjaca; correct?

 2        A.   That's right.  Exactly.

 3             May I add something?  May I?  That was just my estimate.  That is

 4     to say, I did not have a list that at a given moment or on a given date

 5     there were such and such a number of people.  As security organ, that was

 6     my assessment.  That at one moment, it could not have been more than

 7     3.000 or 3.200, but no way could there have been 4.000 or 4.500.

 8     Physically they couldn't fit in.

 9             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honours, I'd note that it's break time.  It

10     seems like a good moment in other senses.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it's a good moment to take a break.

12             We take a break of 20 minutes and we'd like to see you back after

13     the break.  You may now follow the usher.

14             We resume at quarter to 2.00.

15                           [The witness stands down]

16                           --- Recess taken at 1.25 p.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 1.49 p.m.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  While we're waiting for the witness to be escorted

19     into the courtroom, Mr. Lukic, Mr. Stojanovic, the statement of the

20     witness was redacted and that has been uploaded already early February.

21     The same is true for the table of concordance.  But copies of the

22     redacted statement or copies of the new statement have -- new table of

23     concordance have never been sent to Chambers' staff, and that creates all

24     kind of confusion and misunderstandings.

25             So therefore if you have -- we, as Judges, we look at the 92 ter


Page 31751

 1     statement and attachments to it.

 2                           [The witness takes the stand]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, if there is anything, any further new versions

 4     of it, Chamber staff should be provided with a copy of those newest

 5     versions so that they can be passed on to us and that we know exactly

 6     what is redacted.  We had no idea before we came to court.

 7             Ms. Edgerton, if you're ready you may proceed.

 8             MS. EDGERTON:  I am.  Thank you.

 9        Q.   To go on to another area now, Mr. Radinkovic, I just want to ask

10     you a little bit about some of the information you found -- you and your

11     team found on conducting your interrogations.  Now, it's correct, isn't

12     it, that your team, as you processed the prisoners who came into Manjaca,

13     found that a substantial number -- a larger number of the detainees

14     hadn't been involved in the armed conflict; right?

15        A.   Yes, that's right.

16        Q.   And you found that a larger number hadn't been arrested with any

17     weapons.  That's correct, isn't it?

18        A.   According to the information that was available to us, that is

19     correct.

20        Q.   And your team actually reported this to the 1 KK command, didn't

21     they?  You told them that there was no basis for these people, who we've

22     just referred to, to be kept prisoners; right?

23        A.   Yes.  But after our interviews and after having learned things

24     directly from them or from other persons who were there.  It is only then

25     that we could provide information to the service or, rather, submit our


Page 31752

 1     own impressions, or perhaps a better word would be "notes,"

 2     "observations," namely, that among them there were people who could go

 3     for an exchange.

 4        Q.   And that included people who were elderly?

 5        A.   It particularly included the old and frail and a few persons who

 6     were underage who were there.  Yes, precisely.

 7        Q.   People who were sick?

 8        A.   The sick certainly.  Especially those who were seriously ill.

 9     Usually they were both old and ill, so then we insisted and asked that

10     primarily they be taken for a medical examination at the clinical centre,

11     and some people were actually taken directly from the clinical centre to

12     Geneva and elsewhere for medical treatment.

13        Q.   Now, just to tie up again another couple of things that you

14     mention in your statement --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I intervene for one --

16             MS. EDGERTON:  Of course.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  What you just explained to us, you said, and that

18     was the start -- the question was that among them there would be people

19     who could go for an exchange, and you then went through various

20     categories, the old, the frail, the sick, the youngsters.  My question

21     is:  Why didn't you release them?  Why would they have to be exchanged?

22     I mean --

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We didn't have the right to release

24     anyone or to detain anyone.  We got the people that we got, and after our

25     processing we could make proposals or propose certain measures to our


Page 31753

 1     superiors in terms of what should be done further.  It is only after

 2     that.  We couldn't just do anything off the cuff.  And we could not

 3     release them.  No chance of that.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  But I do understand from what I read here that they

 5     were no real prisoners of war.  They had never been engaged in combat,

 6     there were the old ones, the youngsters, the sick ones.  To say -- do you

 7     have any idea why your superiors, who had to decide why they could keep

 8     them at all, why were they in detention?  Why were they there to be

 9     exchanged rather than to be immediately released, there being no proper

10     basis for detention?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Our superiors did not even bring

12     them in; that is to say that they were arrested or brought in by the

13     civilian police or, rather, even the military in various territories.

14     For those reasons that they knew.  For some we received documentation

15     that they had taken part in armed conflict or in arming or in any other

16     kind of organisation.  So -- I mean, they were all brought together.  It

17     was not written anywhere this person is a soldier, that person is just a

18     participant or an accomplice in different -- I mean, well, revealing our

19     positions or whatever else.  They were all brought there, all of those

20     who were suspects.  And it is only then that we would learn who could be

21     qualified for certain things, held accountable for what they had possibly

22     done, and then we made proposals that others be exchanged.  That was our

23     proposal and usually we were the ones initiating the proposal.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me stop you there.  Why didn't you propose them

25     to be released immediately because you found that there was no reason for


Page 31754

 1     detention, and apparently you accepted that a certain percentage of those

 2     brought in were detained without any proper legal basis.  Why didn't you

 3     propose them to be released, let them go home?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We, as professional security

 5     organs, could have done that too.  But again, you have to bear in mind

 6     that it is 1992.  War.  And how can you release them when after 5 or

 7     10 metres they would be liquidated by one side or the other.  There is no

 8     way that they could have been released.  They just had to be taken away

 9     somewhere to -- in an organised fashion.  But our mandate was only to

10     make proposals for an exchange, organised release, not just any way.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, do I understand you well that you

12     exchanged them in order to protect them against violence by others?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not only from violence, if you mean

14     the camp.  We protected them from the combat 20 kilometres away from

15     Banja Luka.  If they were to go in that direction, they would be in

16     danger.  Their lives would be in danger.  There was a war going on.  You

17     cannot just go whichever way you wanted.  That was our motto and that is

18     what guided us.  And I think that was humane.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, Serbs continued to live in those war

20     areas as well, isn't it?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Both Serbs and loyal Muslims and

22     Croats.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, you have people in detention where you have

24     found out that they are not in any way involved in combat or there is no

25     reason to detain them.  Why not send them back to where the other loyal


Page 31755

 1     Muslims and the Serbs were living and allowing them to go home to their

 2     own houses but instead exchange them?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, our proposal was aimed at

 4     them leaving the camp of Manjaca.  Now, was that an exchange or perhaps a

 5     return to their place of residence and so on and so forth, I mean, well,

 6     that was for the other organs.  It was for the command or civilian

 7     structures.  Our notes were sent through our department and command to

 8     the security services centre, too.  So perhaps they assessed that it was

 9     undesirable for them to come there for security reasons or whatever it

10     was.  But we did not receive any return information.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, a minute ago you told me that -- you told this

12     Chamber that you proposed them for exchange because it would otherwise be

13     too dangerous.  And now two minutes later, you say your proposal was

14     aimed at them leaving Manjaca, exchange or return to their place of

15     residence was the same.  That -- those two answers are not consistent.

16     Do you have any explanation for why you started with saying that you

17     proposed an exchange and that two minutes later you say, well, it was not

18     to be exchanged but it was just that they could leave Manjaca?  Any

19     explanation for this inconsistency?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do.  If I put it vice versa, it

21     would be clear.  If we had made a proposal and not received an answer,

22     then the next step would be to propose an exchange.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.

24             MS. EDGERTON:

25        Q.   To go to another area to end off our day, Mr. Radinkovic, this


Page 31756

 1     morning you spoke about a large group of prisoners who were brought in

 2     from a collection centre who were in a really bad state.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  That was at temporary transcript page 50.

 4        Q.   Now, that's the same group as the 1.460 prisoners from Omarska

 5     that you referred to in your statement at paragraph 42; right?

 6        A.   Yes, precisely.  That's the group.  And it was characteristic

 7     because just a month or two before, images from that camp, Omarska or

 8     Keraterm or whatever it was, were published all around the world.

 9        Q.   Now, just to fill in the story about those prisoners.  You said

10     at -- in your statement, actually, at page 11, paragraph 12, you talked

11     about them being locked inside buses overnight.  So let's be perfectly

12     clear:  That huge group was actually brought to Manjaca on the

13     6th of August; right?

14        A.   I don't see the document here, but I suppose that's correct.  I

15     mean, I can't remember off the cuff.

16        Q.   All right.

17        A.   I think that's it.

18        Q.   And they came in a large number of buses, didn't they?

19        A.   Unfortunately, 1.430 of them were packed into only 11 buses.

20        Q.   And where they were made to spend the night was about 50 metres

21     outside the barbed wire perimeter; right?

22        A.   They didn't spend the night there.  They arrived around 3.00 or

23     4.00 a.m., so it was almost dawn.  They were brought there and they were

24     not forced but I can't remember for what reason they were supposed to

25     hand in documents according to our procedure, and they were not able to


Page 31757

 1     do that.  They had expected that we would just open the gate and receive

 2     them all at once.  We, of course, refused and that caused the delay in

 3     admission, and of course we wanted to do it by day, in daylight.

 4        Q.   Now, these prisoners you found when processing them came with no

 5     papers?

 6        A.   Most of them were without papers.  Some of them had IDs or

 7     driver's licences or something, but perhaps 70 per cent of them were

 8     without any documents at all.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Edgerton, could you seek clarification of the

10     words used by the witness, page 75, line 6:

11             "They were brought there and they were not forced but I can't

12     remember ..."

13             Not forced to what?

14             MS. EDGERTON:

15        Q.   Mr. Radinkovic, the transcript records you as saying, in respect

16     of these prisoners we're talking about:

17             "They were brought there and they were not forced but I can't

18     remember for what reason they were supposed to hand in documents

19     according to our procedure."

20             Now perhaps we missed something in the interpretation or the

21     transcription but perhaps -- maybe you're in a position to clarify that

22     statement?

23        A.   That's precisely what I was trying to say, since they had no

24     proper documentation, and proper documentation would have been a whole

25     complete list, bus by bus, with names and all the other details.  They


Page 31758

 1     didn't have that.  They didn't have the documents they were supposed to

 2     hand over to us.  So I stopped them.  I wanted to wait for sunrise and

 3     for them to make the lists properly, and to conduct the hand-over process

 4     as appropriate.  That's what caused the delay.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Then who had to make those lists?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The lists should have been made by

 7     those who had sent them to Manjaca camp.  That means the civilian service

 8     in Prijedor that was in charge of the Omarska camp.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, I still do not know what these persons were not

10     forced into.  I still do not understand where you said, "... they were

11     not forced ..."  They were forced to stay in the buses, isn't it?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, they were not allowed to

13     leave the bus.  Their escorts were made to produce the documents we

14     required, the lists and all the rest.  Not the prisoners but the escorts.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  And at the same time you said it would be better to

16     wait and leave up to 130 persons in a bus for hours and hours.  You

17     thought that, I think you said it was -- you earlier used the word

18     "humane."  Did you consider this appropriate to those in those buses?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that moment, we didn't know

20     anything.  We didn't know even the total number or the number of people

21     per bus, we as a service didn't know that.  We found out only when they

22     began to disembark from the buses how many of them there were.  Before

23     that, we didn't have the elements to decide that we should start

24     something earlier or start with interviews, et cetera.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  So at a distance of 50 metres from the camp, you're


Page 31759

 1     unable to see that those buses were packed with 130 people in one bus,

 2     where a bus ordinarily takes, if I'm not wrong, 50 or 60 people.  So that

 3     is more than double the number of passengers you would normally have on a

 4     bus.  You couldn't see that from 50 metres?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Regrettably, my office is

 6     150 metres away and I was not in a position to go out and interrogate the

 7     military police because it's the military police that was in charge of

 8     the external security of the camp.  All this was happening away from me.

 9     They were just standing there.  The buses were just standing there.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, thank you.

11             Ms. Edgerton, I need two or three minutes to continue to read a

12     decision with which I started, so therefore if you could conclude in one

13     or two minutes.  I don't know whether you have any -- whether it's

14     possible to put further questions to the witness.

15             MS. EDGERTON:  Perhaps I could just try one.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please.

17             MS. EDGERTON:

18        Q.   And, in fact, once your service was able to process these

19     prisoners who had been brought from Omarska, you realised that quite a

20     number of them actually didn't deserve to be treated as prisoners of war

21     either, didn't you?  They didn't have weapons, they hadn't participated

22     in combat.  They didn't deserve to be there, did they?

23        A.   Well, later we realised that once we started to process this

24     them.  We worked continuously on a fast-track because we had received

25     very little description of their prior activities and we had to work very


Page 31760

 1     quickly to establish the facts; in other words, to find out whether they

 2     were responsible for anything or we should propose some way for them to

 3     leave the camp.  Just as the people who had been brought from other

 4     collection centres, from Kljuc, from Sanski Most, we processed them

 5     again.  In fact, our service was doing its job regardless of the

 6     accompanying documentation.

 7             MS. EDGERTON:  I think that takes us to the time-limit,

 8     Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

10             Mr. Radinkovic, we'll adjourn for the day.  We would like to see

11     you back tomorrow morning at 9.30, but I would first instruct you that

12     you should not speak with anyone or communicate in whatever way,

13     irrespective of whom it is, about your testimony, testimony given today

14     or testimony still to be given tomorrow.  Is that clear?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Then you may follow the usher.

17                           [The witness stands down]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I resume reading the half-read decision on the

19     admission of documents used and tendered through the testimony of

20     Vladimir Lukic.

21             I left off after I had admitted -- well, the Chamber had admitted

22     P6733 into evidence.

23             P6734, P6740, and P6742 were marked for identification pending an

24     agreement between the parties as to which portions should be tendered.

25     The Prosecution informed the Defence and the Chamber through an e-mail on


Page 31761

 1     the 18th of December, 2014, that it seeks to have P6734 - that is, six

 2     pages - admitted in full and has provided excerpts of P6740 and P6742.

 3     The excerpts have Rule 65 ter numbers 7593a, which is six pages, and

 4     2395a, which is 14 pages, respectively.

 5             The Defence has been asked to provide its position on these

 6     documents but has declined to do so.  E-mails were sent on the

 7     8th of January, the 8th of February, and again on the 13th of February,

 8     all of this year.  The Chamber therefore understands that it does not

 9     object.

10             The Chamber hereby admits P6734 into evidence.

11             Further, the Chamber admits 65 ter 7593a and 2395a as P6740 and

12     P6742, respectively.

13             Six documents tendered by the Defence were also marked for

14     identification pending an agreement between the parties as to which

15     portions of the lengthy documents should be tendered.  These are D629,

16     D630, D633, D634, D635, and D639.  The Chamber was informed via an e-mail

17     on the 25th of November and the 11th of December, 2014, that an agreement

18     had been reached between the parties and that the relevant excerpts had

19     been uploaded under different Rule 65 ter numbers.

20             The Chamber admits Rule 65 ter 1D5285 as D629, 1D5283 as D630,

21     1D2461 as D633, 1D5282 as D634, 1D5290 as D635, and 1D5281 as D639.

22             And this concludes the Chamber's decision.  The Chamber will

23     decide on the admission of associated exhibits for Witness Lukic in a

24     separate decision.

25             We adjourn for the day and will resume tomorrow, Tuesday, the


Page 31762

 1     17th of February, 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, I.

 2                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.17 p.m.,

 3                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 17th day

 4                           of February, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.

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