1 Wednesday, 25 February 2015
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone that are in or just outside
6 this courtroom.
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
9 IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 The Chamber was informed that both parties would have brief
12 preliminary matters to raise.
13 Mr. Stojanovic, Defence first.
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] As briefly as possible,
15 Your Honour, since we took it upon yourself yesterday I would just like
16 to give you information about the exhibits that we used with
17 Witness Milojica. At -- the Defence is not going to tender numbers
18 1D03024 and 1D30305 -- so 03025. And we stand by the proposal to tender
19 into evidence 1D03628 and 1D4969.
20 Thank you.
21 JUDGE ORIE: That is hereby on the record. One second, please.
22 Yes, the documents you're not tendering, you tendered more or
23 less in the 92 ter motion, but I do understand that you do not persist to
24 that tendering.
25 The Chamber will decide in due time on the remaining matters.
1 Mr. McCloskey.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, good morning, Mr. President, everyone.
3 Regarding the document examiner's expert report, 65 ter 32125a,
4 we have reviewed Mr. Ivetic's objection. We have, for several hours,
5 reviewed the jurisprudence on this matter, and while we feel the
6 situation as it came up in cross -- or excuse me, in direct and re-direct
7 was rather unique. We feel that overall it is not worth or while to
8 tender this document, and I am -- decided not do so and am withdrawing
9 the document.
10 JUDGE ORIE: That's hereby on the record. Mr. McCloskey, it was
11 for exactly same reasons that the Chamber invited the parties to make
12 written submissions rather than to deal with the matter immediately in
13 court. You've decided how to proceed with it, and it's hereby on the
14 record, and it saves the Defence some time.
15 We have MFI'd the document under number P7148 and, therefore,
16 that number is now vacated.
17 If there's nothing else, is the Defence ready to call its next
18 witness, which, as far as the Chamber understands, would be
19 Mr. Dragutinovic.
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Then could the witness be escorted into the
23 Perhaps, meanwhile, for the remaining two exhibits related to
24 the -- associated exhibits in relation to Ratko Milojica there was no
25 objection by the Prosecution. Therefore, 1D03628 would receive,
1 Madam Registrar, number.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, 1D03628 will receive the number just
3 vacated, which would be P7148.
4 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
5 THE REGISTRAR: Apologies, Your Honours. In that case it would
6 be D911.
7 JUDGE ORIE: D911 is admitted into evidence.
8 [The witness entered court]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Dragutinovic.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Before you give evidence, the Rules of Procedure and
12 Evidence require that you make a solemn declaration. The text is now
13 handed out to you. May I invite to you make that solemn declaration.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
15 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Dragutinovic. Please be seated.
17 Mr. Dragutinovic, if you would allow us for a second to deal with
18 a matter which we were in when you entered the courtroom, it will not
19 take more than -- it will take less than a minute.
20 Madam Registrar, could you assign a number to 1D04969.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the number for 1D04969 will be
23 JUDGE ORIE: D912 is admitted.
24 Mr. Dragutinovic, you will first be examined by Mr. Stojanovic.
25 You find Mr. Stojanovic to your left. Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for
1 Mr. Mladic.
2 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
3 WITNESS: MIODRAG DRAGUTINOVIC
4 [Witness answered through interpreter]
5 Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
6 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Dragutinovic.
7 A. Good morning.
8 Q. For the record, I would like you to speak slowly and state your
9 name and surname.
10 A. My name is Miodrag Dragutinovic. I was born on the 21st of
11 March, 1950, in the village of Gojcin, municipality of Kalesija,
12 Bosnia-Herzegovina. I'm married. I have two children. I'm retired now.
13 I'm a pensioner.
14 Q. Thank you. Can you please tell us where it is that you live
16 A. I live in the neighbourhood of Celopek in the area of Zvornik.
17 Q. Could you please tell the court about your professional training.
18 A. I completed a technical vocational school and I'm a land
19 surveyor. I have a secondary education.
20 Q. Tell me, did you have any kind of military education?
21 A. [No interpretation]
22 JUDGE ORIE: One second. Your last question, the answer to your
23 last question is found entirely in paragraph 1.
24 The question you put to the witness invites him to tell us what
25 is found in paragraph 2 of his statement. Let's try to avoid repetition,
1 Mr. Stojanovic, and perhaps since the witness is a 92 ter witness, we
2 could proceed with the attestation of his statement or --
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No.
4 JUDGE ORIE: No.
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we proposed to deal
6 with this witness viva voce. That is what we announced, and we also
7 stated the time.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Then I must have missed that, which I, depending on
9 how it has reached us. If we missed it, then --
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, we asked for an hour and a
11 half and we said viva voce. We're going to change the status of the
12 witness, and I think we provided timely information on that.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll just try to find out -- I may have
14 missed it. Perhaps my colleagues have missed it as well.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, we were informed of that, but there's not
18 been created any sort of practice on getting the Judges to approve such a
19 thing or not. So perhaps that would be more helpful because it does
20 change things quite a bit when we go from one to the other, especially at
21 the last minute.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we'll find out where we missed your
23 information, if we missed any of that.
24 Meanwhile, Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour. Thank
2 Q. So, Mr. Dragutinovic, my last question was if you could tell us
3 about your military education and training.
4 A. When I did my regular military service, I completed the reserve
5 officers' school in the engineering centre of Karlovac in Croatia. After
6 completing this school, I was promoted to the rank of second lieutenant.
7 Otherwise, this schooling went on for a year. So I now have the status
8 of a reserve officer.
9 Q. When the war started in Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1992, what was your
11 A. I was captain first class then.
12 Q. Did you join the Army of Republika Srpska at any point in time?
13 A. In 1991 as a reserve officer, I was mobilised into the former
14 JNA, and I remained there for about four months. After the JNA left
15 Bosnia-Herzegovina on the 19th of May, 1992, all of us who were from the
16 territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina stayed on in TO units, so I stayed on in
17 a TO unit too. It was a unit at brigade level, in the Bijeljina
19 Q. Do you remember the name of that TO brigade with its headquarters
20 in Bijeljina?
21 A. Well, in the JNA it was called the 17th Majevica Brigade, and in
22 the beginning of 1992 or, rather, after the JNA left the territory of
23 Bosnia-Herzegovina, after that agreement was reached, the unit that I
24 stayed on in was the 1st Semberija Brigade.
25 Q. Thank you. After the Army of Republika Srpska was established,
1 did you join the Army of Republika Srpska?
2 A. After the Army of Republika Srpska was established, from the TO
3 units, I was just promoted to member of the Army of Republika Srpska.
4 Q. Do you remember what your duties were in terms of establishment
5 and what unit you were in, in the Army of Republika Srpska?
6 A. In the Semberija Brigade, I was in the operations department. I
7 was a desk officer. And when I joined the Zvornik Brigade in
8 August 1992, I was, yet again, a desk officer in the operations
10 Q. Were you promoted at any point in time in terms of establishment
11 as well?
12 A. Yes. Later on, I was promoted assistant Chief of Staff for
13 operations and teaching and otherwise I was promoted to the rank of major
14 and that is the rank that I held until the end of the war.
15 Q. What was the name of the brigade where you were assistant Chief
16 of Staff for operations and teaching?
17 A. The 1st Zvornik Light Infantry Brigade.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Excuse me, I think it may be better that the
20 translation normally operations and training not teaching. I'm -- I'm
21 sure the Defence would agree with that. It's just a translation issue.
22 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know whether it is. Because I do not know
23 what the original language was.
24 But, Mr. Stojanovic, training, teaching?
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Literally it is operations and
1 teaching. That's that work.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, this is a -- as -- as the Court knows, a
4 position in all brigades, corps, and the Main Staff, and it has always in
5 this building been translated as operations and training.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then it's clear how you understand it and
7 that you -- of course, the Chamber is not in a position at this moment to
8 say that -- not even knowing what the original language is, what was
9 used, to have any comment on the translation, the interpretation of the
10 words spoken by Mr. Stojanovic but you have drawn our attention to it,
11 Mr. McCloskey, and I think we could leave it to that for the time being.
12 Please proceed.
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 Q. Mr. Dragutinovic, this is what I'm interested in: In 1995, what
15 did the personnel command structure of the Zvornik Brigade look like?
16 Who was the brigade commander?
17 A. The brigade commander was Lieutenant-Colonel Vinko Pandurevic.
18 Q. Who was the Chief of Staff?
19 A. The Chief of Staff was Major - then - Dragan Obrenovic.
20 Q. Formerly and according to establishment did he also carry out the
21 duties of deputy commander of the brigade?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. The brigade commander, how many assistant commanders did he have
24 on the staff of the brigade?
25 A. The commander had an assistant commander for morale; and
1 assistant commander for security; and an assistant commander for
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please
4 have document 65 ter 05642 in e-court.
5 JUDGE ORIE: While we're waiting for it, Mr. Stojanovic, could
6 you briefly tell us exactly when the Chamber was informed that this was a
7 viva voce witness? Because I -- the last thing I found was a message of
8 the 23rd of February which gives corrections to the statement rather than
9 announcing that it would be a viva voce witness. If you would have that
10 available, then we can further verify what we missed, if we missed
12 Please proceed.
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I will check and I will
14 tell you, Your Honour. At this point in time I'm not in a position to do
16 Q. Mr. Dragutinovic --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps Mr. McCloskey could also assist in telling
18 us when he received the message because it may be that we then received
19 the message as well.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, we received that, the sheet that we're all
21 familiar with of the schedule on 12 February.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then on the 23rd of February, we receive
23 a -- a correction to the statement which was ... what's the use of
24 sending the Chamber information about the statement what is to be
25 corrected what turned out during proofing if you're not using that
1 statement at all, Mr. Stojanovic?
2 And, Mr. McCloskey --
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] The reason -- the reason,
4 Your Honour, was the practice that we had when examining the previous
5 witness, when at one point in time, the Prosecution asked the Defence to
6 say when it was that they had informed the OTP about Witness Jevdjevic
7 having changed what he stated in his previous statement and we had the
8 discussion about the two proofings regarding this witness who testified
9 viva voce. After that decision of yours then I decided, out of an
10 abundance of caution, to inform the Prosecution that the witness
11 indicated to us a certain contradiction, if I can put it that way,
12 between two paragraphs of this statement.
13 So that is why I did that.
14 JUDGE ORIE: That's fine for the Prosecution. I don't think it
15 affects the Chamber in any way if you don't want to use that statement.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I can tell you that these
17 statements will be something that will be relevant and used in this
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But I'm -- yes. But that still doesn't
20 resolve the initial matter which is, Mr. McCloskey, can you see anything
21 that the Chamber was addressed in the message that was sent to you that
22 the witness would be presented as a viva voce witness?
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, our sheet shows viva voce, and Ms. Stewart
24 is pointing me to Mladic case chamber so we do see you on the address
25 list on that date.
1 JUDGE ORIE: And that was exactly on what date.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: 12 February, 1530 hours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you. We'll check that and see whether
4 there's any communication problem within Chambers which, of course, we
5 would immediately and seriously address if that's the case.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey, perhaps you can clarify what you
7 mean by the usual sheet. Do you mean the Defence exhibits for witness
8 Dragutinovic, 92 ter/viva voce.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: It is entitled, "Schedule of witnesses for week
10 16th or 19 February." It's got the boxes.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yeah. Thank you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: So we have, Mr. Stojanovic, are we supposed to if we
13 have a 92 ter motion, which is not withdrawn, and if we get messages
14 about what documents will be used, whether you will further stick to
15 associated exhibits, et cetera, that we have to find on such a list
16 without any further attention being given to it, without any further
17 explanation to the Chamber, we have then to suddenly understand that this
18 has become a viva voce witness. Is that the position of the Defence?
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. If it was our
20 omission to inform you specifically, not only using this customary
21 procedure, then it is an omission on our part.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Let me see.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is not a customary procedure. And, indeed,
24 I found now the list the witnesses to be scheduled in the next upcoming
25 weeks, and there it is said viva voce 1.5 hours but this is the only
1 information we received. That is exactly the sheet which Mr. McCloskey
2 was talking about. This has never come -- was never coming up before.
3 This is not the normal procedure in this court.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Let me see.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: In addition, Mr. President, we have a witness
6 schedule that was sent to the parties on 1 February 2015 where he was
7 listed viva voce. But as I noted there has not been a process, which
8 would be helpful, I think.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Stojanovic, next time if you change that,
10 don't provide us with a puzzle but provide us with clear, unambiguous
11 information, because we spent a lot of time - we do - on preparing
12 ourselves for the testimony of those witnesses, and we are not amused by
13 being surprised in the way as you did.
14 I find a document the 17th of February which still announced
15 Mr. Dragutinovic as 92 ter/viva voce. That is two and a half weeks after
16 you already apparently had decided not to call him as a -- not as a
17 92 ter motion.
18 We further find -- let me just check.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE ORIE: When I refer to the 17th of February, it might be an
21 error to that extent that it may be the date of the printing of that
22 document. We'll carefully consider it, but I repeat, that we're not
24 Please proceed.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Mr. Dragutinovic, in front of you, you see a schematic. I would
2 kindly ask you to tell the Trial Chamber whether you recognise this
4 A. This document shows the structure of command of the
5 Zvornik Brigade. I was shown this document in 2001 when I provided my
6 statement to the Tribunal's investigators. I signed it as my own, but I
7 had some corrections to make. I believe that this document reflects the
8 formation of the command of the Zvornik Brigade.
9 Q. When it comes to your position as the assistant Chief of Staff of
10 operations and training, is it properly entered into this schematic?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Within the system of command and control, who was your immediate
14 A. It was the Chief of Staff. However, when it comes to the brigade
15 structure, all the command members at any given moment could be
16 subordinated to the brigade commander.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender
19 65 ter 05642.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 05642 receives number D913.
22 JUDGE ORIE: D913 is admitted.
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Mr. Dragutinovic, let's go back to the month of July of 1995.
25 What was your specific task with regard to the military
1 activities surrounding Srebrenica?
2 A. When it comes to the military activities surrounding Srebrenica,
3 the Zvornik Brigade received its task from the corps command. It was a
4 preparatory order and it was received on the 2nd of July. On that same
5 day, the brigade also received its combat order containing all the tasks
6 for the units of the Zvornik Brigade. They were to be carried out in the
7 Srebrenica sector.
8 Q. Can you remember, can you tell the Trial Chamber what was the
9 specific task of your own unit?
10 A. In the combat order and before that in the preparatory order, the
11 Zvornik Brigade received a task to establish a unit equalling a light
12 battalion of up to 400 men and to be on stand-by until the 4th of
13 July and to be ready to engage on its own independent axis. The axis was
14 not specified at that moment, neither was the sector.
15 In the combat order, however, those tasks were explained in
16 detail, and we were fully aware of the tasks that the corps command had
17 for us.
18 Q. Thank you. What were those specific tasks that your unit was
20 A. As part of the combat order, in its first part - and the combat
21 order was issued by the command of the Drina Corps - we were told about
22 the intentions and the tasks assumed to be undertaken by the enemy. Also
23 the tasks and assessments of the command of the Drina Corps as to what to
24 do in order to prevent any activities of the 2nd Corps of the BiH Army.
25 And after that, tasks for the units, including the units of the Zvornik
2 Q. And now I would like to call up 65 ter 04293.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't understand what the tasks of this unit
4 were from that last answer, and I know have you persisted to try and find
5 out what they were. Are you satisfied that you've got the tasks now?
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will continue exploring
7 operative tasks when the next document is displayed.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: This is a form of leading where you asked someone
10 for the tasks and then show him the tasks. It's not a particularly --
11 matter of -- of being contested, but he did not answer the question about
12 the tasks and now we see the order that lists the tasks. So I think it
13 would be best for the question to be answered before the document is
15 JUDGE ORIE: I consider this to be a general observation about
16 leading questions, Mr. Stojanovic, without any direct consequences for
17 this matter which apparently is not in dispute. But it's not for the
18 first time that the technique of questioning witnesses in
19 examination-in-chief has been raised, and I would like you to pay more
20 attention to it.
21 Please proceed.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. And you will
23 see that the document that we have on the screen does not suggest
24 anything and does not speak about those tasks. However, I am happy to
25 entertain your objection about leading questions.
1 Q. Sir, in front you, there is an order. Could you please look at
2 paragraph 1.
3 My first question: What is this about? What kind of an order is
5 A. This is a preparatory order of the command of the Zvornik Brigade
6 to establish a unit that will be engaged in the Srebrenica combat sector.
7 Q. When it comes to this tactical group that was to be established
8 by the Zvornik Brigade, who were its members?
9 A. Pursuant to the combat order of the corps command, and I
10 understand that a minute ago that I did not provide a full answer about
11 its tasks and I intend to answer --
12 Q. I'll come back to that. Could you please answer my previous
13 question first.
14 A. The Zvornik Brigade, pursuant to that order, received the task to
15 establish a unit equalling a light battalion and based on that order, the
16 Zvornik Brigade took into account the intention of the commander and I
17 drafted the document and elaborated it. Indeed, it did establish a
18 tactical group, that was Tactical Group 1. That's what we called it.
19 In this order, we explain how that tactical group should be
21 Q. Just one question. To the best of your recollection how many men
22 did Tactical Group 1 have?
23 A. Tactical Group 1 did not have more than 400 men.
24 Q. My next question, as can you see in this document, there is
25 reference to the armoured mechanised company. What was it composed of?
1 A. The tactical group was based on two combat groups. One combat
2 groups was formed of a mobile unit from the Zvornik Brigade, a detachment
3 which was a reserve unit for active combat. And combat group 2 which was
4 established and had a temporary composition. Its members came from the
5 battalion of the brigade, whereas the armoured mechanised company was
6 attached to the tactical group as support and consisted of four tanks,
7 four APCs, one anti-aircraft cannon Praga, as well as two Strela-2M to
8 protect the armoured mechanised company against an air strike.
9 Q. And now could you please tell the Trial Chamber what was the
10 specific task of your tactical group, which is Tactical Group 1 in
11 respect of Srebrenica?
12 Could you please first answer the previous question, i.e., what
13 was the general task of the units that were deployed in the sector of
15 Go ahead tell us and then answer my last question as well.
16 A. Pursuant to the preparatory order of the command of the
17 Drina Corps and later the combat order of the Drina Corps the task of the
18 unit that were deployed and were to be deployed in the Srebrenica sector
19 was for the enclaves of Srebrenica and Zepa to be separated from each
20 other and to narrow down the manoeuvre space of the 28th Division which
21 was in the protected area of Srebrenica, as well as the protected area of
22 Zepa. That brigade had not been demilitarised, had not been disarmed.
23 It was well equipped and in the spring of 1995 based on all the
24 intelligence, it was well prepared for combat. Its task, according to
25 all the assessments, was to be used as a unit which would act from the
1 sector of the protected areas of Srebrenica and Zepa in concert with the
2 other units and attack all the units of the Drina Corps. Those other
3 units were the units of the 2nd Corps which were to attack the
4 Drina Corps and the ultimate goal was for the units of the BiH army to
5 get to the Drina river.
6 Q. What was the specific task within the overall strategic task of
7 Krivaja 95? What was the specific task of your Tactical Group 1?
8 A. The task of Tactical Group 1 pursuant to the Drina Corps order
9 which was later elaborated, was to deploy units to the Zeleni Jadar
10 sector, to get to the separation line, Bukova Glava-Javor-Zeleni Jadar
11 and to launch an attack along the axis Zeleni Jadar, Pusmulic village,
12 Bojne. The more specific task was to dispel the enemy forces on the axis
13 of the attack and to get to the Rajne village-Zivkovo Brdo line. And the
14 next task was to get to the Bojne village sector.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to
17 tender 65 ter 04293 into evidence.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 04293 receives number D914.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Mr. Dragutinovic, when you arrived in the sector that was
23 assigned to you pursuant to this task, when was that?
24 A. The unit was set up on the 4th of July. We marched to the
25 Srebrenica sector in two columns. One column consisted of the armoured
1 mechanized company. They started marching along the Zvornik-Bratunac
2 line and got to the Pribicevac sector on that same day, on the 4th of
3 July, and the rest of the tactical group marched along the
4 Bratunac-Zvornik-Skelani axis and they spent the night in Jezera village
5 and then in the morning of the 5th of July, they arrived in the
6 Zeleni Jadar sector.
7 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to slow down,
8 especially when enumerating all the villages.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Especially if you list names, could you please slow
10 down but also in general, could you slow down your speed of speech.
11 Please proceed.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. And now could you please tell the Trial Chamber when the combat
15 of Tactical Group 1 started?
16 A. Pursuant to the Drina Corps order for tactical -- for combat
17 activity, combat started on the 6th of July early in the morning.
18 Q. Did you receive any specific orders regarding UNPROFOR
19 observation points along the axis of movement of your unit?
20 A. On that axis, there was an observation point in the Biljeg
21 feature sector. That was along the axis of movement of Tactical Group 1
22 of the Zvornik Brigade.
23 Q. Did you have any specific instructions as to how you should treat
24 UNPROFOR members at that observation point?
25 A. We all knew what the function of UNPROFOR was. Our task was to
1 let UNPROFOR do their job and that we should try not to disturb them or
2 engage in any other way against the UNPROFOR observation point.
3 Q. When it comes to this observation point, what was the position of
4 the 28th Division?
5 A. That gave rise to a problem which escalated later when the
6 UNPROFOR units left the Biljeg observation point and the problem was as
8 On the left and on the right from the UNPROFOR observation point,
9 some 50 to 100 metres away, there were defence positions of the
10 28th Division so that the observation point was effectively along the
11 line and part of the defence of the 28th Division.
12 Q. Did it come a time when you had to engage the crew of the UN
13 observation point?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Could you please tell the Trial Chamber whether you had any
16 specific orders with regard to the civilian population, should you had
17 any encounters with them within the combat area?
18 A. In any case, the standing order was that the objective of our
19 combat activities were not civilians, was not the enclave, or UNPROFOR
20 units. Our objective was exclusively the 28th Division which was a
21 permanent danger for the units of the Drina Corps.
22 Q. When you were engaged in combat, did you actually have encounters
23 with the civilian population from the enclave?
24 A. No, we did not have any direct contact with them. However, from
25 our reconnaissance position, and that was the reconnaissance position of
1 the Howitzer detachment of Tactical Group 1 which was our tactical group,
2 we could see the movements of the civilian population as soon as combat
3 started. The civilian population was moving along the axis Slapovic,
4 left to the units of Tactical Group 1, across Bajramovic, towards
6 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell the Court in this courtroom to
7 the best of your recollection how things followed after that, from the
8 6th until the 10th of July?
9 A. On the 6th of July, the units of the tactical group were not very
10 successful. They took part of the features on the axis of attack. They
11 had a certain number of wounded. And in view of the result, the
12 commander of the tactical group, Tactical Group 1, Vinko Pandurevic, he
13 stopped combat activities. He called in the commanders of the tactical
14 groups and made a decision to group forces and the tactical group was
15 supposed to attack along the axis Javor-Biljeg-Ravne.
16 The task envisaged was supposed to take place on the next day in
17 the early morning hours. That is, the 7th of July. The units were
18 gathered there, taken from positions and gathered there, and prepared for
19 combat activities in the morning hours of the 7th of July.
20 Q. What were the results of this combat?
21 A. In the morning hours of the 7th of July, combat activities did
22 not start because there was a lot of rain and fog so this attack was
23 postponed until the weather conditions got better.
24 The weather conditions did not get better all the way up until
25 the 8th, the afternoon of the 8th, when the units started their attack,
1 and struck forcefully, came to the Biljeg area and to the left arrived at
2 the forested elevations that we in our own jargon called Tri Sise these
3 are dominant features above the road from Zeleni Jadar to Srebrenica,
4 that is to say, just above the road.
5 Q. What happened in the battlefield on the 10th of July?
6 A. Before that, on the 9th of July, we continued combat activities
7 and reached the line Rajne-Zivkovo Brdo. That was the closer task from
8 the order of the Drina Corps. On the 10th in the early morning hours,
9 the 28th Division carried out a counter-attack, pushed back our forces to
10 the area of Biljeg, Tri Sise or, rather, above the road
11 Zeleni Jadar-Srebrenica and that is where we consolidated and prepared
12 for a counter-attack of our own in an attempt to get back to the line
13 that had been reached the previous day, that is, the line Rajne-Zivkovo
14 Brdo. In the afternoon hours on the 10th, we took again the hill that we
15 had lost, Zivkovo Brdo, and we got to the village of Rajne on the
16 Zeleni Jadar-Srebrenica road and there by we carried out this more
17 immediate task from the command of the Drina Corps. Afterwards,
18 according to the situation that was very favourable for us, combat
19 activities continued, and we got to the Bojne line and that was the next
20 task from the combat task issued by the command of the Drina Corps.
21 Thereby our task was carried out.
22 Q. Did you get a new combat task at any point in time?
23 A. I can add that to the left Since Tactical Group 1 was on the main
24 axis of attack, there was Tactical Group 2 that was operating and it was
25 somewhat less successful so we had to wait for them to reach the lines
1 that they were given by the command of the Drina Corps. So in the
2 afternoon hours of the 10th, we received the task of preparing on the
3 following day, the 11th of July, continuing combat activities along the
4 Bojne-Srebrenica-Gostilj-Potocari road.
5 Q. Do you know who issued that order?
6 A. In the afternoon hours of the 10th, in the area of Bojna,
7 General Krstic arrived there and he gave us the basic tasks. The
8 following day, they were spelled out in more concrete terms and
10 Q. On the 11th of July, did you set out to accomplish the next task
11 that you were given by General Krstic?
12 A. Units prepared to continue combat activities -- excuse me. Then
13 around midday, units started their axis of attack along the
14 Bojne-Srebrenica-Gostilj-Potocari road, and, at that moment, just before
15 combat started and somewhat after that, NATO aircraft carried out strikes
16 against the units of Tactical Group 1 in the area of Bojna. However,
17 this did not distract the unit of the Zvornik Brigade and other units and
18 did not stop them from carrying out their tasks further.
19 Q. Tactical Group 1, was it affected by the NATO bombing in any way?
20 A. Combat vehicles were destroyed and one ambulance and one command
21 vehicle of the commander of Tactical Group 1, the commander of the
22 Podrinje detachment and then one truck that contained a certain amount of
23 ammunition. There weren't any other effects.
24 Q. Were you personally affected by the NATO air-strikes?
25 A. During the second NATO air-strike, I was near the damaged
1 vehicles. These combat vehicles -- well, practically were not combat
2 vehicles. It was an ambulance, a command vehicle, and a truck. They
3 were bombed yet again. Since I was nearby, when the missiles hit, the
4 anti-armour missiles, I suffered a minor contusion. At first, I didn't
5 have any particular consequences.
6 Q. Where did you personally go after this contusion?
7 A. After a while, certain symptoms appeared, namely, headaches,
8 vomiting, dizziness. Commander Vinko Pandurevic suggested that I be take
9 to our logistics units in the Zeleni Jadar area in an ambulance. We had
10 a medical post there and then a doctor could see me and see what the
11 consequences were and perhaps could send me to Zvornik for further
12 examinations and medical treatment.
13 Q. Before the break, just one more question.
14 That afternoon and evening on 11th July 1995, how far did
15 Tactical Group 1 get?
16 A. One can say that except for the 10th and the 8th, 9th, 11th,
17 before the units of Tactical Group 1 from the Zvornik Brigade got there,
18 there was no particular resistance in Srebrenica itself and very quickly
19 the line that was involved in the task was reached. And that was when
20 arriving at the line to the left of Gostilj, I think 522 is the feature,
21 and on the right-hand side there was another elevation and that is where
22 the group was supposed to stop and spend the night or, rather, be ready
23 for continuing combat activities in accordance with the order of the
24 superior command.
25 Q. Thank you, Mr. Dragutinovic.
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it seems to me
2 that it's time for the break.
3 JUDGE ORIE: It is time for the break.
4 Witness, we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes. You may now
5 follow the usher.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 [The witness stands down]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, coming briefly to what happened
9 before, this witness, Mr. Dragutinovic, was presented in your Rule 65 ter
10 witness list as a 92 ter witness.
11 On the 1st of February, he was still presented as a 92 ter/viva
12 voce witness. The same happened on the 6th of February, 92 ter and viva
13 voce. It was only on the 12th of February that he appears on one of your
14 lists without any further explanation as a viva voce witness.
15 Now, whether you would need leave to change your 92 ter witness
16 list is a matter that could be discussed, but at least it is -- whether
17 the witness is a 92 ter witness or a viva voce witness, clearly appears
18 in the information you have to provide under Rule 65 ter (G) of the Rules
19 of Procedure and Evidence.
20 Now, adding an exhibit to the 65 ter list, you need certainly
21 leave for that. Whether you would need leave to change the status of a
22 witness is a matter that could still be discussed, but there can be no
23 doubt that if you change the status of a witness on your Rule 65 ter list
24 that at least a clear and unambiguous announcement must be given, which
25 has not been done in this case.
1 I hereby instruct you that whenever a similar status, change of
2 status is envisaged by the Defence, that even before announcing the
3 change that the Chamber should be informed about that intention so that
4 the Chamber can, if it wishes to do so, further comment on it.
5 Let that be clear.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE ORIE: And apart from that, Mr. Stojanovic, do you have any
8 intention to withdraw your 92 ter motion, which you haven't done. I
9 mean, if you present a witness as viva voce, wouldn't it be appropriate
10 then to withdraw in, again, unambiguous terms, that you withdraw your
11 92 ter motion. Yes.
12 I was able to figure this out just in a couple of minutes,
13 Mr. Stojanovic. You had three weeks to figure that out.
14 Mr. McCloskey.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Just one small unrelated issue. I think there's
16 been a translation issue. The witness I believe it was page 24 mentioned
17 from that the NATO bombing he suffered a contusion. I believe that that
18 may be concussion. It's always been concussion before so I don't know if
19 he's changed words or not. But I just alert that because it does have
20 some significance.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, talking about translations, I noticed,
22 Mr. McCloskey, in the statement which we are supposed not to have read,
23 the 92 ter statement given by the witness, that the "training" is the
24 word rather than "teaching." And I take it that this is a translation of
25 the same words as used here in court when the witness was questioned on
1 the matter.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think that's probably right, though, of course,
3 I don't know the word he used. If he -- but as an officer, I'm sure he
4 got the right word, I would think.
5 JUDGE ORIE: That's the reason I said, "I take it, it's not a
7 Mr. Stojanovic, if there's anything you'd like to tell us now,
8 please do so.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, two things.
10 So, yes, we withdraw our proposal for Witness Dragutinovic to be
11 heard in accordance with Rule 92 ter. We stand by the proposal to hear
12 him viva voce. From that point of view, we changed his status.
13 And we have also taken note and I believe that in the future
14 there will be other situations like that. We are going to inform you not
15 only through the witness list of their status but for each and every
16 concrete case, we are going to provide timely information on the change
17 of status. And that is the practice that we are going to follow in the
18 future, along with our apologies for not having done it now, specifically
19 but only through this motion of the 12th of February, in terms of how the
20 witness is going to be examined.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Well, Mr. Stojanovic, perhaps you carefully re-read
22 your own -- the language you used. I think whatever language you used
23 the matter is sufficiently clear to the Chamber. But I would
24 specifically draw your attention to where you said "we are going to
25 provide timely information on the change of status."
1 Precise language would have been "we are going to provide timely
2 information on our intention to change the status."
3 We take a break, and we'll resume at 11.00.
4 --- Recess taken at 10.39 a.m.
5 --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 Q. Mr. Dragutinovic, we were talking about the 11th of July and what
10 happened in the afternoon on that day.
11 When -- where did you spend the night between the 11th and the
12 12th of July, 1995?
13 A. I spent that night in the logistics unit, i.e., in the medical
14 unit of Tactical Group 1 in the Zeleni Jadar sector.
15 Q. On the 11th of July in the afternoon, did you communicate with
16 Pandurevic who was the commander of tactical group?
17 A. In the evening on the 11th, the commander arrived in the
18 Zeleni Jadar sector and he gave us our basic task and that was for the
19 logistic unit to move certain equipment as quickly as possible to the
20 Srebrenica sector as well as to the Gostilj sector where units of the
21 Tactical Group 1 were. We were to prepare to spend the night on the
22 positions reached. At the same time, he wanted to see me as his
23 operative officer to inquire about my medical condition because I had
24 refused to go to Zvornik for further checkups and treatment.
25 Q. Could you please tell us, on the 12th, in the morning, what was
1 the axis of your movement?
2 A. In the morning, on the 12th of July, the logistics base in
3 Zeleni Jadar was again visited by the commander. He gave us our task and
4 that was for the logistics organs, the whole logistics and everything
5 that belonged to it, to move to the Srebrenica sector as quickly as
7 Q. Did you personally head for Srebrenica?
8 A. Since the physician provided the commander with his opinion, I
9 insisted that I could return to the unit without any particular
10 consequences. As a result of that, together with the commander, I
11 returned to Srebrenica on the 12th, sometime between 9.00 and 10.00.
12 Q. How did you and Mr. Pandurevic travel from Zeleni Jadar to
14 A. In the command vehicle of the commander of Tactical Group 1,
15 Mr. Vinko Pandurevic.
16 Q. Did Mr. Pandurevic tell you anything about his movements the
17 previous evening on the 11th and during the night between the 11th and
18 the 12th?
19 A. Given our relationship, him as a commander and me as an
20 operative, it was only logical that I was kept abreast of the situation
21 in the unit and possible task, as well as the movements of the commander
22 and his intentions. Therefore, he told me that on the 11th, in the
23 evening and later during the night he had had a briefing or a debriefing
24 in the command of the Bratunac Brigade and that he had returned very late
25 and that he had taken a different route to the one that he had taken from
1 Srebrenica to Bratunac, i.e., from Srebrenica to Bratunac, he travelled
2 in the command vehicle and he took the route
3 Srebrenica-Potocari-Bratunac. In the Potocari sector, he encountered a
4 large group of people; men, women, and children. He realised that he had
5 a mistake to take that route but it was too late already and he managed
6 to negotiate his way to Bratunac somehow.
7 Q. Did he tell you anything about the route that he took on the way
9 A. Since his estimate was that he would have threatened the lives of
10 the people in the vehicle, i.e., the driver and two soldiers from his
11 protection unit and because of his own personal safety, he took a
12 different route and that was Bratunac-Sase-Srebrenica.
13 Q. Who attended that debriefing on the 11th of July in the evening
14 at the command of the Bratunac Brigade?
15 A. We did not discuss the debriefing.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: That has no foundation. It may be what did you
19 learn or who told you, but unless he establishes that this person was
20 there, that's an improper question.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, you're invited to lay a basis for
22 the knowledge of the witness about the debriefing on the 11th of July.
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Did the commander, Pandurevic, tell you what the debriefing at
25 the command of the Bratunac command was about?
1 A. Basically what I learned from the commander was that the
2 debriefing was about previous combat activities and the future task which
3 was established at that meeting. And that was that the units were to be
4 deployed in the Zepa sector to engage the Zepa Brigade and neutralise its
6 As for the rest of that meeting, I really don't know anything
7 about it.
8 Q. Did he tell you anything about the participants of the
9 debriefing. Who was there?
10 A. I don't know. He didn't tell me.
11 Q. Thank you. When you arrived Srebrenica on the 12th, when did you
12 arrive, to the best of your recollection and estimate?
13 A. It was sometime between 10.00 and 11.00, but it would sooner be
14 closer to 10.00 than closer to 11.00.
15 Q. Was that your first arrival in Srebrenica during the war?
16 A. Yes, that was my first arrival in Srebrenica.
17 Q. What did you find there in Srebrenica, in terms of facilities?
18 A. The town itself was a sore sight. I had known Srebrenica from
19 before as a small tourist place, and I live in a similar town, but it was
20 in a -- a state of disarray. However, there were no signs of
21 destruction. I could not observe any signs of previous combat in the
22 town itself.
23 Q. Did you find any civilians there?
24 A. In the town itself, apart from the units, there were no civilians
25 at all.
1 Q. What was your next combat task? How was it worded?
2 A. Let me just add when I arrived in Srebrenica while we were still
3 in the vehicle, the commander emphasised that he expected or he was
4 awaiting an order for further use of our unit. As soon as we arrived in
5 the Gostilj sector, where our command was located, the task did arrive,
6 indeed, so we started to prepare our unit for the accomplishment of that
8 Q. How was it worded?
9 A. The task, in short, would be the following: Tactical Group 1,
10 headed by Commander Pandurevic was supposed to be reserved for
11 Tactical Group 2 which would scout the terrain along the axis
12 Srebrenica-Viogor-Suceska. It was to move behind Tactical Group 2 in a
13 marching order.
14 Q. On the 12th of July, did you embark on carrying out that task?
15 A. Already around 12.00 units of the Zvornik Brigade, i.e., of the
16 Tactical Group 1 were prepared to start marching along the axis
18 Q. How long did that engagement last?
19 A. We arrived there around 1500 hours. Roughly.
20 Q. Did you have any encounters with the elements of the
21 28th Division?
22 A. Tactical Group 2, which marched in front of the Zvornik Brigade,
23 did not come in contact with parts of the 28th Division. We informed our
24 command about that, and we continued moving in a column along the Viogor
25 pass axis. This means that Tactical Group 2 was also not in contact with
1 parts of the 28th Division.
2 Q. And during that afternoon, on the 12th of July, did any of the
3 officers visit you on the positions reached?
4 A. Before I answer your question, I'd like to add that one of the
5 elements of the task was this: When your units arrive at the
6 Siljato Brdo-Viogor sector, they should get ready and start moving
7 towards the Suceska village sector in a combat order because there
8 assumptions based on intelligence that elements of the 28th Division were
9 concentrated there. As we arrived in the Viogor sector from the
10 intelligence organ, we received intelligence and we were also informed by
11 the Drina Corps that in the Suceska sector there were no elements of the
12 28th Division. We were thus ordered to stay there, both Tactical Group 2
13 and Tactical Group 1 in the Viogor sector, and to await our further
14 orders there.
15 Q. Who was it who gave you your further orders?
16 A. In the afternoon hours on the 13th -- or, rather, the 12th of
17 July, the 12th of July, I apologise. It was on the 12th of July.
18 General Krstic arrived in the Viogor sector. In view of the situation
19 that prevailed ahead of us, he gave us our task, and that was to get
20 ready to start marching in the direction of the Zepa enclave. He also
21 told us that the -- the details of that task would be specified on the
22 following day, i.e., on the 13th of July.
23 Q. Where did you spend the night between the 12th and the 13th of
24 July, 1995?
25 A. The whole unit, Tactical Group 1 together its command, spent the
1 night in the Viogor sector. We had set up our command there, as well as
2 all the other elements that are needed for a unit to spend the night in
3 the open. We set up security and all the other elements that were needed
4 to secure the unit under such circumstances.
5 Q. Did any of the elements of the tactical group or the
6 Zvornik Brigade on that day, on the 12th of July, have any specific tasks
7 in the Potocari sector?
8 A. As far as I know, units of the Zvornik Brigade did not receive
9 any tasks. They did not receive any orders with regard to the Potocari
11 Q. On the following day, the 13th of July, in the morning, did you
12 have an opportunity to meet with any of your superior officers?
13 A. On the 13th of July, around 10.00 in the morning, the Viogor
14 sector where the units of Tactical Groups 1 and 2 were camping, was
15 visited by General Mladic, General Krstic. I don't remember whether
16 there were any other members of the superior commands.
17 Q. And on that occasion, did General Mladic address your unit?
18 A. General Mladic addressed the troops and unit commands. He
19 delivered a short speech. In military terminology, that would be called
20 a speech, but it was rather to inform us about the situation on the -- in
21 the theatres of war of the Herzegovina, Sarajevo-Romanija, and
22 East Bosnia Corps. He gave us an overview of the situation -- situation
23 and combat activities in Serbian Krajina. After that, he gave us a
24 specific task.
25 Q. And that task was?
1 A. That task was, in short, that unit commanders should gather their
2 units to provide them with material and technical equipment and that they
3 should start marching in the direction of the Zepa sector.
4 Q. Were there any suggestions by the subordinated officers with
5 regard to that task?
6 A. Usually after a task is issued by a commander of a superior
7 command, and in that specific case, it was our Supreme Commander,
8 General Mladic, no objections are ever expected. The only thing that is
9 expected was for General Mladic was to ask whether everybody was clear on
10 the task or whether there were any dilemmas with regard to the
11 accomplishment of the task. The commander of Tactical Group 1, the
12 commander of the Zvornik Brigade, Vinko Pandurevic, asked permission to
14 Q. What did Mr. Pandurevic say on that occasion?
15 A. Since General Mladic allowed Vinko Pandurevic, the commander of
16 the tactical group, to present his position,
17 Lieutenant-Colonel Pandurevic, as far as I can remember, provided a short
18 analysis which consisted in the following: He said that basically we had
19 not dispelled or broken up the 28th Division, that the 28th Division had
20 only moved into the north -- northern part of Srebrenica enclave where
21 they were deployed around Jaglici village sector and he said that most
22 probably they would try to break through across the territory controlled
23 by the Army of Republika Srpska along the
24 Konjevic Polje-Udrc-Kamenica-Baljkovica axis and that axis was most
25 commonly used by them when they infiltrated independent units of the
1 28th Division. As soon as they came behind the back of the
2 Zvornik Brigade, i.e., the 7th, 4th and 6th battalions, i.e., left of
3 Memici, across Baljkovica to Petkovci. That meant that the defence of
4 the Zvornik Brigade would be threatened.
5 Q. Do you remember --
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Stojanovic and Mr. Witness, especially
7 Mr. Witness, you should slow down while speaking. It is very complicated
8 for the interpreters to follow. And please pause between question and
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Okay.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Can you remember, whether, on that occasion, General Mladic said
14 something or answered in some way, whether he said anything in response
15 to what Pandurevic had said?
16 A. As far as I can remember, General Mladic basically said the
17 following: The corps command has sufficient forces that would stop the
18 28th Division from crossing the Konjevic Polje-Kasaba-Milici road and
19 with regard to that question, the commander of the tactical group
20 Vinko Pandurevic should not have any concerns and that he has his basic
21 task and that he should set out to accomplish that task.
22 Commander Vinko Pandurevic as an officer said, Yes, sir, General, and
23 that is how the conversation ended, that is to say, this conversation
24 between the general and Vinko Pandurevic.
25 Q. Do you remember whether there was any mention of the civilian
1 population in the enclave on that occasion?
2 A. The civilian population, as far as I can remember, was not
3 mentioned at all. It was only military affairs, the 28th Division, its
4 position, the position of our units, and the tasks that were to follow.
5 Q. Was there any mention of any possible POWs?
6 A. No.
7 Q. When did you arrive at your new position in accordance with the
8 combat task received?
9 A. We arrived at the new position in the morning hours around 2.00
10 on the 14th of July in the area of the village of Pozeplje or, rather,
11 the village of Rijeka.
12 Q. Were there any combat activities or any movement of your tactical
13 group on that day, the 14th of July?
14 A. On the 14th of July, upon arriving in the area of Pozeplje and
15 receiving a task from the corps command, the command of the tactical
16 group elaborated this concrete task and set out to carry it out. This is
17 what it consisted of: In the Pozeplje-Plana area, I think that's the
18 name of the village, along the road Brloznik-Purtici-Cavici, an attack
19 was supposed to be carried out, and in accordance with the task the line
20 in the village of Purtici should be reached.
21 Further on along the Purtici-Cavici road, the line should be
22 reached in the village -- at this moment I simply cannot remember. I
23 think it was east of the village of Cavici.
24 Q. Was there any combat on that day?
25 A. There was combat in the village of Brloznik where there were no
1 inhabitants at all. Then after that fighting continued a bit towards the
2 village of Cavici where it stopped.
3 Q. Were there any casualties on either side?
4 A. We had some wounded. There weren't any persons who got killed.
5 Q. Tell the Court where you spent the night between the 14th and
6 15th of July.
7 A. The unit spent the night at the positions reached and the command
8 of the tactical group spent the night in the school in the village of
10 Q. What happened after the 15th of July in the morning?
11 A. Since the units were already prepared in the early morning hours
12 of the 15th to continue their activities along the Purtici-Cavici-Zepa
13 road the command of the tactical group had already reached the units when
14 the commander received a call from the forward command post, the village
15 of Krivace, from General Krstic, to call the forward command post, the
17 Q. What was the next task?
18 A. After the commander returned from the forward command post, and
19 he went there about 8.00 and he returned about 9.00, with the approval of
20 General Krstic, the units of the Zvornik Brigade because of the situation
21 that was going on at that moment in the rear of the Zvornik Brigade, at
22 the Memici-Baljkovica road, Petkovci, he allowed that the units from the
23 tactical group from the Zvornik Brigade could return to their original
25 Q. Can you tell us to the best of your recollection when it was that
1 you returned to the area of Zvornik Brigade?
2 A. After the units of the tactical group withdrew from the positions
3 attained, a column was formed and the commander awaited for that. And
4 then at the helm of the column, he set out in the direction of Zvornik
5 and he gave me the task that within the armoured mechanised company, I
6 should be at the rear end of that column.
7 Q. To the best of your recollection, when was that you arrived in
8 the area of the Zvornik Brigade?
9 A. I arrived in the area of the Zvornik Brigade around 14, 1500
10 hours, the area Zlatne Vode. That's on the old road between Zvornik and
11 Tuzla, on the outskirts.
12 Q. Who did you receive your next order -- task from and what was it?
13 A. Before leaving, the commander gave me a task stating that I
14 should stay in Zlatne Vode and wait for replenishment of the unit. The
15 replenishment did arrive in Zlatne Vode --
16 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not hear the name.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And the commander sent this to me
18 through him.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat where the replenishment did
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The replenishment arrived in Zlatne
22 Vode. That is on the outskirts of the town of Zvornik on the old road
23 between Zvornik and Tuzla.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Did you act on this order; and where did you find yourself on the
2 afternoon of the 15th of July?
3 A. The order stated that within the armoured mechanized company, I
4 should set out along the Zlatne Vode-Caparde-Memici road with the
5 following task: To support the 7th Battalion and control the road that
6 from Tuzla, via Memici and Caparde, leads to Zvornik, that I should hold
7 it using my own fire-power and parts of the unit should support the
8 7th Battalion in fighting the units that were attacking from the front.
9 Q. Did you have any intelligence about the strength of the enemy,
10 the 28th Division of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
11 A. In the combat order of the command of the Drina Corps, it said
12 that the 28th Division consisted of five brigades and the sixth one was
13 the Zepa Brigade. The estimate was that in it there are between 4 to
14 5.000 armed soldiers. The strength of the column, we could assume that,
15 but one could take it as correct that there were between 4 to 5.000 of
17 Q. Did you have any information as to which units of the Army of
18 Republika Srpska - and possibly attached units - were in that area?
19 A. The 7th Battalion in the area of Memici. The 4th, in the area of
20 Baljkovica. The 6th, in the area of Dugi Dio, Petkovci. They were
21 defending Memici on the left and Petkovci on the right, and then in
22 depth, part of the units in that area, on the 15th upon our arrival, the
23 Podrinje detachment was already there that is to say from our tactical
24 group, and then part of Tactical Group 2, from the tactical group, then a
25 company from the Bratunac Brigade, a platoon from the Vlasenica Brigade,
1 then a company of the special brigade of the police from Zvornik. One
2 company of the special brigade of the police from Sekovici, and I think
3 one company from the special police brigade from Bijeljina.
4 Q. That night, between the 15th and the 16th, did combat ensue
5 between these units that you mentioned and the enemy units?
6 A. The main fighting took place between the units of the 2nd Corps
7 of the BiH army that were attacking at the lines of defence of the 7,
8 4th, and partly 6th Battalion, with the intention of carrying out a
9 breakthrough through the defence lines of the mentioned battalions and to
10 link up with the 28th Division or, rather, parts of it. And thereby make
11 it possible to get them out of the positions that they were in. However,
12 these attacks on the 15th did not yield fruit, so the units of the
13 2nd Corps or, rather, parts of it, did not get through the defence line
14 and did not link up with the 28th Division, so the 28th Division found
15 itself in a rather unenviable position, in view of our knowledge to the
16 effect that there were many civilians within it.
17 Q. Can you describe the intensity of that combat on the basis of the
18 experience that you had in the years of war up until then?
19 A. Since I was on the left flank of the actual battlefield within
20 the 7th Battalion, I could visually, directly, and partly via radio
21 communications, I could follow all developments in the Baljkovica area.
22 In the briefest possible terms, this is what it boils down to.
23 In the early morning hours, on the 16th, sometime around 4.00, the units
24 of the 2nd Corps carried out a very strong intensive attack against the
25 positions of the 7th Battalion and the fiercest attack was against the
1 positions of the 4th Battalion and partly the 6th Battalion that was
2 linked with the 4th Battalion along the Baljkovica river. They managed,
3 in part, to disrupt the defence of the 4th Battalion and afterwards that
4 was repaired as the Podrinje detachment came in. So on the 16th of July,
5 the units of the 2nd Corps of the Army of BiH did not break through the
6 lines of the 4th Battalion and were not able to assist parts of the
7 28th Division and the civilians that were right behind them.
8 Whoever is familiar with that area, that terrain, can just
9 imagine the 28th Division, the civilian part that was moving towards them
10 since they did not have any help and they did not receive any help from
11 the units of the 2nd Corps, of course, in combat terms, they found
12 themselves in a cauldron and on that morning, we say in our language it
13 is boiling like it is in a cauldron. That was the intensity of the
14 combat activities.
15 During those five years of war, I had not experienced that kind
16 of intensity in combat.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, you've got a few minutes left.
18 Could I remind you of that.
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I hope I will be able to finish,
20 Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I think, as a matter of fact, in view of the history
22 of this testimony, that we might be rather strict. And then I've not yet
23 in any way calculated the time we wasted on the matter, you still
24 remember, from before the break, so you get the full net one hour and a
25 half, and that's it.
1 Please proceed.
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.
3 Q. Mr. Dragutinovic, try to shorten your answers so I may be able to
4 use the time that remains.
5 A. Okay.
6 Q. Did you have an opportunity to hear that an agreement could be
7 reached between the two parties in order to overcome the situation?
8 A. From the commander of the battalion, I was keeping abreast of the
9 situation. In view of the situation in the Baljkovica sector,
10 Commander Vinko Pandurevic upon the insistence of the other side, through
11 Colonel Semso Muminovic was involved in the negotiations with a view to
12 overcoming the situation which had escalated that morning. The commander
13 of the Zvornik Brigade and the -- the other side thought that it would be
14 opportune to cease-fire and that was indeed what happened and then the
15 next step was to see how the 28th Division could withdraw together with
16 the situation how they could overcome the situation that they encountered
17 in the cauldron in the Baljkovica sector.
18 Q. According to that agreement, how long did this cease-fire last;
19 and how long did the corridor remain open?
20 A. The agreement was that combat activities would be interrupted
21 around 10.00 and that the cease-fire should last until the 17th, around
23 Q. Did you honour the agreement?
24 A. Both sides fully honoured the agreement which was reached between
25 Commander Pandurevic and Colonel -- and the colonel from the 2nd Corps of
1 the BiH army.
2 Q. Did anybody from the superior command come to the area to see
3 what the situation was like?
4 A. On the 17th in the afternoon, I found myself in the Baljkovica
5 sector. My task was to surveil the situation because the cease-fire was
6 to end and the corridor was to be closed. One part of the detachment
7 also arrived in the Baljkovica sector. Their task was together with the
8 4th battalion unit that I had brought was to close that corridor. I
9 learned that three officers from the Main Staff had spent some time at
10 the IKM. Their task was to learn about what had happened the previous
11 day and earlier that day.
12 Q. Bearing in mind your previous answer, and that was that you
13 visited the scene where the corridor was opened, did you have an
14 opportunity to see the casualties of the previous intense fighting?
15 A. My task was to co-ordinate my activities with the company that
16 had arrived in the sector of the 7th Battalion to enter the defence
17 sector of the 7th Battalion not in a combat order but just to observe the
18 situation. I was not to scour the terrain. I was to ascertain whether
19 any units had been infiltrated by the 7th Corps. When I arrived in the
20 Baljkovica sector I see there was no such unit. I got in touch with the
21 battalion and with the detachment, and I accomplished the task of closing
22 the corridor. I could see as much as the time allowed me to see. I
23 could see the scene of the battle.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, your time is over. If you have one
25 last question, you with put it to the witness, but when I warned you a
1 couple of minutes ago that the time was very limited, you just continued
2 to listen to evidence which, for example, your last question has not been
3 answered by the witness. He expends a lot of time on matters which
4 are -- we still do not know whether he had an opportunity to see the
5 casualties, because that was the question, and you let him go for minutes
6 and minutes. Apparently that's the way in which you wish to use your
7 time in examination-in-chief.
8 If you have one last question to the witness, you may put it to
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
11 Q. Mr. Dragutinovic, my last question. Did you observe any wounded
12 or any other casualties of the intense fighting?
13 A. I saw dead bodies. I didn't see any wounded.
14 Q. Mr. Dragutinovic, on behalf of the Mladic Defence, I would like
15 to thank you for the answers you provided to us.
16 A. Not at all.
17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this brings the
18 examination-in-chief of this witness to an end.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.
20 [Prosecution counsel confer]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Before we move on to the cross-examination, I have
22 one or two questions I'm seeking clarification.
23 I'll take you back to the 11th of July, Witness. You know,
24 that's the day when you were transported and saw the doctor and where you
25 said you stayed overnight, I think, it was in Zeleni Jadar, and it was on
1 that same day that quite -- that the debriefing took place on which you
2 were questioned extensively.
3 One of the questions was, and that was before Mr. McCloskey
4 intervened. The question was: "Who attended that debriefing on the 11th
5 of July in the evening at the command of the Bratunac Brigade? "
6 And then your answer was: "We did not discuss the debriefing."
7 And you were talking about your conversations with
8 Mr. Pandurevic. That was your answer.
9 Then when asked that was the next question: "Did the commander,
10 Pandurevic, tell you what the debriefing at the command of the Bratunac
11 command was about?"
12 And then you told us what you learned from Pandurevic.
13 Now what I do not understand yet is that on the one hand, you
14 say, We did not discuss the debriefing, and, on the other hand, you tell
15 us what you learned from Mr. Pandurevic about the debriefing.
16 Could you explain that.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The way I understood the question
18 was this: Didn't Mr. Pandurevic tell me who had attended the meeting or
19 the debriefing besides him? And I said that Mr. Pandurevic did not tell
20 me who exactly had attended that debriefing. So I really don't know who
21 had attended. I can only assume but it would be nothing but an
23 JUDGE ORIE: Your answer reads differently. Your answer reads:
24 "We did not discuss the debriefing."
25 But I now understand that you intended to say that he didn't tell
1 you who attended that debriefing.
2 Now, before he went there, did he tell you who had called that
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Usually it would be the commander
5 of the superior units. Therefore -- please allow me.
6 JUDGE ORIE: No, Witness. I'm interrupting.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Okay, okay.
8 JUDGE ORIE: I didn't ask you who usually would do that. I asked
9 you whether Pandurevic told you who had called that meeting. That was my
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He told me that a meeting was
12 called by General Krstic.
13 JUDGE ORIE: And not by General Mladic?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, not General Mladic. It was
15 General Krstic.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, by -- as -- due to an unfortunate
17 development of procedural events, this Chamber had -- has looked at a
18 statement which is not in evidence, and in that statement in paragraph 13
19 I read -- and it's a statement which was signed by you, and I'll just
20 read the one line which is relevant.
21 You said in that statement: "I stayed the night between 11 and
22 12 July while Pandurevic left Srebrenica for Bratunac, travelling via
23 Potocari. He said he was going to a meeting called by Generals Mladic
24 and Krstic ..."
25 My question to you is: What now explains that in that statement
1 which you signed, a statement which was corrected later but not in this
2 respect, that suddenly it is reported that you said that the meeting was
3 called by Generals Mladic and Krstic; whereas, you now say, No, he told
4 me that it was Krstic. And what explains that you did not correct that
5 when you were briefed recently? When -- I used the wrong expression;
6 during proofing sessions recently.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I said during my first
8 testimony in 2007 what I said it is quite possible that --
9 JUDGE ORIE: I stop you there again.
10 THE WITNESS: Okay.
11 JUDGE ORIE: My question was not about your testimony in 2007.
12 My question was about what you told us a minute ago, comparing that with
13 a statement which reflects -- which was signed by you in July 2014 and
14 reflects interviews held in June and October 2013, during which you are
15 reported to have said - and you signed for that - that the meeting was
16 called by Generals Mladic and Krstic.
17 Do you have any explanation why you signed that statement and why
18 you did not correct that recently during proofing?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would have stood by the statement
20 that I provided previously, and that is that the meeting was called by
21 Generals Mladic and Krstic. So what I'm saying now, i.e., the current
22 statement, I could - how should I put it? - I could change that. Not in
23 the sense that I'm changing the meaning of the statement but --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, let me stop you there. You stay you stand
25 by your signed statement that the meeting was called by Generals Mladic
1 and Krstic? Is that ...
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: May I then take you back to an answer which you gave
4 a minute ago. I asked you whether Pandurevic had told you who had called
5 that meeting. And your answer was: "He told me that a meeting was
6 called by General Krstic."
7 My question then was: "And not by General Mladic?"
8 You then answered: "No, not General Mladic. It was Krstic."
9 So a minute ago, you positively denied --
10 THE WITNESS: Okay.
11 JUDGE ORIE: -- that Pandurevic had told that you Generals Krstic
12 and Mladic had called for that meeting, and now approximately two minutes
13 later, you tell us that that was not a truthful answer and that you stand
14 by your previous answer, by your previous statement that the meeting was
15 as Pandurevic had told you, was called by Generals Mladic and Krstic.
16 Do you have any explanation for that inconsistency.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm explaining the consistency or,
18 rather, discrepancies because it was General Krstic who issued specific
19 tasks for the use of those units, and the commander of the tactical group
20 reported to General Krstic, i.e., the then-Chief of Staff of the
21 Drina Corps.
22 Therefore, reports can be submitted to the commander, i.e., the
23 officer in charge of the operation at that moment.
24 The presence of General Mladic was obvious. He was there as
1 JUDGE ORIE: Now, earlier you told us, also a minute ago, that
2 you had no knowledge about who attended that meeting. Now, 15 minutes
3 later, you tell us that General Mladic was there as well. So apparently
4 you do have knowledge about who attended.
5 Any explanation for that inconsistency?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Again, this is not an
7 inconsistency. The way I understood the question was this: Which of the
8 brigade commanders and participants in combat surrounding Srebrenica also
9 participated in the debriefing at the command of the Bratunac Brigade.
10 It was not only Lieutenant-Colonel Pandurevic who was there but also the
11 other commanders of the units that had been engaged in combat. I don't
12 know who was present.
13 This would be my answer to the question that was put to me by
14 Mr. Stojanovic.
15 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please.
16 The question was, first, Mr. Stojanovic asked you: "Who attended
17 that debriefing on the 11th of July in the evening at the command of the
18 Bratunac Brigade?"
19 Your answer was: "We did not discuss the debriefing."
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I'm just putting to you what you said.
22 Then a few lines further down: "Did he tell you anything about
23 the participants of the debriefing? Who was there?"
24 Your answer: "I don't know. He didn't tell me."
25 If you consider all this not to be inconsistent, then we've heard
1 your explanations until now. I leave it to that. We'll take a break and
2 we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes.
3 You may follow the usher.
4 [The witness stands down]
5 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at 25 minutes past 12.00.
6 --- Recess taken at 12.04 p.m.
7 --- On resuming at 12.26 p.m.
8 JUDGE ORIE: We're waiting for the witness to be escorted into
9 the courtroom.
10 Mr. McCloskey, now being back in the viva voce modus, one hour
11 was your estimate.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: My recollection it was one hour and a half. I
13 think we matched the -- the -- the Defence, and --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it was initially on the famous schedule, it was
15 one hour, but I do understand that we -- you have adjusted that or I
16 don't know even know whether you were the source of the one hour but it's
17 one hour and a half now. And I take it you will be able to finish within
18 that time.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: I certainly hope so. I don't intend on going
20 much beyond the 12th of July, but we'll have to see.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
22 [The witness takes the stand]
23 JUDGE ORIE: And the witness has an inclination to move away from
24 the question. I'm confident that you're able to -- to guide him on the
25 right track.
1 And we will have a little bit of an earlier break because
2 Judge Fluegge will not be with us during the very last session, so we'll
3 take the next break at 1.15.
4 Mr. Dragutinovic, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. McCloskey.
5 You find Mr. McCloskey to your right. Mr. McCloskey is counsel for the
7 Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.
8 Cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey:
9 Q. Sir, you're testifying today that on the 12th of July,
10 Vinko Pandurevic told you about what had gone on, somewhat, but at least
11 he had told you about that meeting that had happened the night before, on
12 the 11th of July.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And we see at temporary page 29, line 17, you say: "Therefore,
15 he told me that on the 11th in the evening and later during the night he
16 had had a briefing or debriefing in the commands of the Bratunac Brigade
17 and that he had returned very late and he had taken another route and he
18 had travelled ..."
19 So if we could go back to your signed statement that
20 His Honour Judge Orie was speaking to you about, 1D1643, page 5, and we
21 understand you corrected some things in this and -- though it's unclear
22 to me exactly what, I want to ask you about something.
23 Looking at paragraph 13, we see that you're talking about leaving
24 with Pandurevic going towards Srebrenica. They say there was -- you say
25 there was a typo on the dates. But explain this to me: In the middle of
1 the page: "Well, Pandurevic left Srebrenica for Bratunac travelling via
2 Potocari. He said he was going a meeting called by Generals Mladic and
3 Krstic. He also said that the agenda of the meeting was to report on the
4 combat operations completed and possibly to receive new tasks following
5 the taking of Srebrenica."
6 Later on, down in 14 he tells you: "The meeting was supposed to
7 take place in the evening and Commander Pandurevic did not mention who
8 was going to attend it."
9 In your testimony, and frankly as you will know in our other
10 testimonies, you're speaking of learning this about -- about this meeting
11 in the past tense. In this statement, which you read and signed, you are
12 talking about Pandurevic telling about a meeting he is going to, in the
14 Now, isn't it correct, sir, that you did learn on the 12th of
15 July that Pandurevic was going to a meeting in Bratunac with the
16 commander, Krstic and Mladic?
17 JUDGE ORIE: Could you answer the question?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And the question is?
19 JUDGE ORIE: The question was whether you did learn on the 12th
20 of July that Pandurevic was going to a meeting in Bratunac, with
21 Commander Krstic and Mladic.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mentioned paragraph 13, but in
23 paragraph 12, it says that I spent the night Zeleni Jadar. So that
24 tallies --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Witness --
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes --
2 JUDGE ORIE: -- Mr. McCloskey puts to you --
3 THE WITNESS: Okay, okay.
4 JUDGE ORIE: -- he says: Isn't it true that you learned on the
5 12th of July that Pandurevic was going to a meeting.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Commander Pandurevic, on the 12th
7 of July, Jadar-Srebrenica, on that road, I heard from him that he had
8 already attended a meeting.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Now for the transcript it says the 1st but I think
10 it's pretty essential -- oh, it's corrected. Yes.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY:
13 Q. My question is: It's been a long time, many years, do you
14 consider it reasonable that you heard about this meeting in the future
15 tense, that Pandurevic was going to a meeting on the 12th July? And to
16 be precisely clear that you, on the 12th of July, together with
17 Pandurevic, that's when he told you he was going to a meeting in
19 A. No. Rather, in the vehicle, on the 12th in the morning, on the
20 road, Zeleni Jadar-Srebrenica he said to me that he had been at a meeting
21 at a briefing in Bratunac.
22 Q. So we can all read your statement which clearly states it's the
23 future. So you read that, you signed it, and that was just one big
24 mistake or misunderstanding?
25 A. I did not give such a statement. Maybe my statement has been
1 misinterpreted. I am sure that I have not given that kind of statement.
2 What is true is that I heard about that from the commander in the vehicle
3 on the road from Zeleni Jadar to Srebrenica that the previous night, he
4 attended a meeting in Bratunac.
5 Q. Now, there's something else you --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, could I seek full clarification.
7 Is it your testimony that you learned about this meeting only on
8 the morning of the 12th, or had something been said about it already on
9 the 11th by Pandurevic.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When Lieutenant-Colonel Pandurevic
11 was in Zeleni Jadar on the 11th, he just intimated that he would be
12 attending a briefing that evening. That is, the 11th, in the evening.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY:
15 Q. You also testified at temporary page 30, lines 21 through 25,
16 that basically, "What I learned from the commander was that the
17 debriefing was about previous combat activities and the future task which
18 was established at that meeting and that was that the units were to be
19 deployed in the Zepa sector to engage the Zepa Brigade and neutralise its
21 Now, if we look at your statement that's still up on the screen,
22 we don't see in paragraph 13 any mention of going to Zepa. In fact, at
23 page 14 [sic], you say: "As I understood things I would say that it was
24 obvious that the units of the 28th Division had withdrawn from Srebrenica
25 town in order" --
1 JUDGE ORIE: You are reading, Mr. McCloskey.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: "... in order not to sustain losses and that they
3 will still -- and that they were still somewhere in the vicinity. The
4 28th Division had not been completely destroyed -- had not been destroyed
5 completely and I presumed that a task would be issued to that effect at
6 the meeting. Pandurevic had to attend on the orders of General Mladic
7 and Krstic."
8 Then we have the part about your presumptions about who was
10 Then we go on. And there's no mention of Zepa.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That was not page 14, but paragraph 14.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Paragraph. Thank you, Your Honour.
13 "The next day on 12 July Tactical Group 1 and Tactical Group 2 as
14 well I believe were articulated with searching the terrain between
15 Srebrenica and Viogor and Suceska. The commander gathered all members of
16 the unit that is to say platoon commanders and said that everyone was to
17 prepare their troops to march towards Suceska. The Podrinje detachment
18 was there as well. We left around 1200 hours and arrived at the assigned
19 position in the area of Viogor-Suceska at around 1500 hours."
20 And we can see that what is in paragraph 16, where you were
21 awaiting Krstic's orders there.
22 Then we get to paragraph 17: "General Krstic arrived in our
23 sector sometime in the afternoon, around 1700 or 1800 hours. Our
24 commander, Pandurevic was there as well. General Krstic and he had a
25 conversation and we were told that we do not need to go to Suceska that
1 there were no 28th Division units there, that the division had gone
2 further up north towards the village of Jaglici and that our unit was to
3 spend the night there. At the meeting with Krstic, it was announced that
4 our unit might be tasked with combat operations."
5 We need to turn the page in the English. Thank you. And the
7 "It was announced that our units might be tasked with combat
8 operations in the area of Zepa ..."
9 Q. So according to this statement, you don't hear anything about
10 Zepa until the evening of 12 July, but now you have testified for the
11 first time that you heard about this before that.
12 How do you explain that important difference?
13 A. I explain it in the following way.
14 The problem that -- that cropped up and that I hadn't stated
15 before; namely, I heard that order from the commander to go to Zepa.
16 Probably it was an oversight on my part, but I know before General Krstic
17 arrived in the Viogor area the units from our tactical group learned that
18 it was possible to go on mission to Zepa. That is to say, we knew about
19 that. Then a problem cropped up in the tactical group itself. Actually
20 combat group 2. This combat group 2 has a heterogenous composition --
21 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
22 A. Let me explain.
23 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... I don't have --
24 A. Do allow me to explain.
25 Q. I don't have much time. It was a simple question.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, if Mr. McCloskey considers that you have
2 either anticipated his question or that he wants to put the next question
3 to you without having received an answer, he is free to do so. If, at
4 the very end of your testimony there's anything you think we should know,
5 then you can address us.
6 Please proceed.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY:
8 Q. During --
9 A. At the end or now?
10 JUDGE ORIE: At the end.
11 THE WITNESS: Okay.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY:
13 Q. During your stay here in The Hague, have you naturally seen or
14 run into any former colleagues in the VRS?
15 A. [Interpretation] Now? This time? In The Hague? Today? These
16 couple of days? Yes, yes.
17 Q. Who?
18 A. Three or four of them were all from the Army of Republika Srpska.
19 I know some of them, and I don't know others.
20 Q. Did you see Milenko Jevdjevic?
21 A. I know Milenko Jevdjevic from before.
22 JUDGE ORIE: The question was whether you had seen him during
23 these days, Witness.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We could see each other during
25 breakfast. We could see each other every day because we were at the same
2 MR. McCLOSKEY:
3 Q. Did he naturally speak to you about those events a bit, on those
4 days when you were soldiers together?
5 A. At the events where we took part together? Yes.
6 Q. So did you talk with him about the period -- any -- any period
7 between the 6th and the 15th of July, 1995?
8 A. Some, yes; others, no. Just those when we could meet each other.
9 Q. Well, you've just testified that you have not said -- you hadn't
10 learned about the Zepa orders before, and you've testified that for the
11 first time today. Is it not correct that Mr. Jevdjevic had kind of
12 reminded you that that's what happened, that Mladic gave an order to go
13 to Zepa?
14 A. No, no. No.
15 Q. But you talked about that --
16 A. Absolutely not.
17 Q. But you talked about that.
18 A. No, no. Not about that.
19 Q. What did you talk about in those days, the 12th/11th of July?
20 What part of the story did you talk about?
21 A. We mostly talked about our common acquaintances who were with us
22 in the area of Zepa, the area of Srebrenica. And I did not go into his
23 testimony because I am an elderly person now and all of this tires me
24 out, and I didn't want to be filled with something that would make this
25 stay more difficult.
1 Q. And I understand. He apparently wanted to talk you about it, and
2 you took the better choice and didn't talk to him about it. Is that what
3 you're saying?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. When did he want to talk to you about it? What day?
6 A. No special day. At moments when he felt certain tension or
7 something that he had experienced, something unpleasant in this
8 courtroom. Just to make it easier upon himself to decompress without any
9 tendency of leading me to some piece of information that I am absolutely
10 aware of.
11 Q. But he told you a bit about what he was testifying about then.
12 A. A bit, a bit, but not that much, since -- since his military
13 occupation is signals and I have nothing to do with signals and
14 communication, and I don't even understand all of that, if he were to
15 tell me about all of that, I wouldn't even understand it. Like many
16 other people would not understand it. Even here, in this courtroom.
17 Q. And I take it that he knew you were a witness in it case --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask you --
19 What makes you believe that people in this court -- in this
20 courtroom would not understand these matters? Why do you think that's
21 the case?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't understand you.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you said: "I don't even understand all of
24 that," you were talking about signals. "If he were to tell me about all
25 of that" --
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes --
2 JUDGE ORIE: And then you said: "... like many other people
3 would not understand it even here in this courtroom."
4 What made you believe that people in this courtroom would not
5 understand these signal matters?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Only experts can understand
7 communications and signals. This is a technical issue, and not even a
8 civil engineer can talk on an equal footing with a mechanical engineer,
9 for example.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- the only person I can discuss,
12 my profession and my professional issues, is my colleague, a land
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, did Mr. Jevdjevic tell you that he had
15 difficulties in explaining to us and that he experienced difficulties
16 where people in this courtroom would not have understood him.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, to a certain extent.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. When did you arrive in The Hague?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Hmm, on Monday, and the date was --
20 some ten days ago it was. Seven, eight days ago.
21 JUDGE ORIE: But if I understand you well, part of your
22 discussion included at least also the experience Mr. Jevdjevic has -- had
23 in this courtroom.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It would be only logical for us to
25 talk and exchange our experiences about the atmosphere in the courtroom,
1 for example.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, after he had concluded his testimony, did
3 he add anything to what he may have said before that?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. No.
5 JUDGE ORIE: So your conversations about what had happened in
6 this courtroom were during the days or between the days in which he gave
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At any time when we had free time
9 to spend together.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Including over the last few days?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Over the last few days, we did not
12 talk. He was not in a mood for any kind of conversation about the
13 courtroom. I think that he was not a mood to talk about that.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But you also told us a minute ago that you
15 told you a bit about his testimony and also that what he had experienced
16 in this courtroom being unpleasant and also about our understanding,
17 understanding of the persons in this courtroom, about the very technical
18 nature of his -- of his answers.
19 That's what I understood --
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was just about communications,
21 about his specialty.
22 As for the rest, I think that the rest was understandable and
23 anybody could understood him.
24 JUDGE ORIE: So -- but did he then tell you because your answer
25 is not entirely unambiguous in this respect, did he tell you that persons
1 in this courtroom - I'm not specifying who that may have been - had
2 difficulties in understanding the very technical matters about
3 communication when he had explained that in this courtroom?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, precisely.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
6 Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I put one additional short question.
8 Did you see Mr. Jevdjevic yesterday after 1.00?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I saw him?
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was the end of that question,
12 is that it? No text? Can't hear you.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I am asking you if you saw Mr. Jevdjevic
14 yesterday after 1.00.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I did not.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Only later I saw him.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: When did you see -- "later" is after 1.00. When
20 did you see him yesterday?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sometime around 1700 hours.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Did you talk to him?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. We had an agreement to go
24 somewhere and have a drink because he was leaving. It was to be by way
25 of saying good-bye to each other.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Nothing about the testimony of Mr. Jevdjevic?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, not on that day.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY:
6 Q. You will recall your interview with the OTP on the 18th of
7 September, 2001?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And you did not tell the OTP at that point about learning of the
10 meeting between Pandurevic, Mladic and Krstic; correct?
11 A. Nobody ever asked me.
12 Q. That's true, no one did ask you. But you didn't mention it
13 yourself either, did you?
14 A. At the end of my interview, I was asked whether I would add
15 something. I said that I answered all the questions and any additional
16 answer of mine would have been groundless.
17 Q. And then on the 11th of June, 2007, you came here to testify.
18 You were a Prosecution witness in the Popovic case, and you met with the
19 OTP lawyer, Kweku Vanderpuye. Do you remember that?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. All right. Let's go to a -- a brief account of your meeting with
22 Mr. Vanderpuye; 65 ter 32122.
23 Now at that meeting with Mr. Vanderpuye you didn't tell him about
24 hearing there was an order from Mladic to go to Zepa from that meeting,
25 did you?
1 A. I don't remember if the question was asked. I'm sure that I
3 Q. Well, let's look at it. Let's go to page 2 in both languages.
4 And looking at bullet point -- what's 5.
5 "The witness states that on 11 July Pandurevic attended a meeting
6 in Bratunac. At that meeting, the witness assumes that General Mladic,
7 corps commanders as well as commanders of the tactical group [sic] were
9 "The witness states that on 12 July 1995, he was picked up by
10 Pandurevic at the medical unit in Zeleni Jadar. Pandurevic drove him to
11 Gostilj where a meeting was held among the commands of the tactical
12 group. On the way there and while there, Pandurevic briefly told the
13 witness about his prior meeting in Bratunac on the night of the 11th ...
14 the witness states that Pandurevic told him that the meeting involved
15 General Krstic but did not mention others present and involved the future
16 operations of ... tactical groups, including searching the terrain for
17 Muslim units leaving Srebrenica towards Suceska. The witness indicates
18 that Pandurevic told him that on his way back from this meeting he took
19 the route back to Srebrenica through Sase in order to avoid what he
20 described as a mass of people.
21 "On 12 July sometime before noon an order to conduct combat
22 operations in Suceska was issued. The tactical group commanded by
23 Pandurevic took on a support role for the other tactical group commanded
24 by Trivic (which was in a combat posture)."
25 Now, we can see what's said in paragraph 7 briefly. Paragraph 8
1 is when you talk again as you had -- we'd seen previous: "Later around
2 17 to 1800 hours an informal meeting was held at Viogor at which
3 General Krstic was present. At this time Krstic informed that the
4 operations in Suceska would no longer be carried out --"
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: We need to turn the page, I believe, in the
7 "As reconnaissance had shown ... the Muslim units were no longer
8 there. The tactical group was directed to await further orders.
9 Subsequently, the meeting continued more formally as a meeting among the
10 commands of Pandurevic's group prepares were in anticipation of the next
11 phase of the operations which the witness states that the group command
12 believed to involve Zepa."
13 Q. So, again, we see in this information, you don't mention learning
14 about Zepa from the command meeting. You don't learn about it until the
15 evening of 12 July.
16 That's a correct account of what you told Mr. Vanderpuye, is it
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Now, you basically say something similar when you testify a few
20 days later.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could go to 65 ter 32114. Let's go to
22 page 24. This is Mr. Vanderpuye leading you on -- in direct examination.
23 We're now -- we see that we're on the 12th.
24 "Q. All right. This next morning can you tell us what happened.
25 This is the morning of the 12th.
1 "A. On the morning of the 12th, I already knew that our units
2 had entered Srebrenica because the commander arrived in Zeleni Jadar
3 where the logistics of our unit was positioned. He was on some
4 assignment and he also went to see me, so when he finished his business,
5 I returned together with the commander to Srebrenica."
6 It goes down. Mr. Vanderpuye asks you if you discuss anything
7 and you answer on line 15: "Yes, we talked. We talked about the things
8 that happened after I was sent to Zeleni Jadar, how the units entered
9 Srebrenica, and all the things that transpired until we met up again.
10 "Q. And can you recall specifically what the commander told you?
11 "A. Well, he was saying that at the outset there was some
12 resistance from the 28th Division, but it was practically non-existent
13 the end so that our units entered Srebrenica without encountering any
14 resistance, that the tactical group entered the town, the units were
15 stationed in surrounding buildings to secure the units that were in
16 Srebrenica. After that, he had gone to Bratunac on the
17 Srebrenica-Potocari-Bratunac road.
18 Now I'm coming to the part I wanted to ask you about.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: We need to turn the page.
20 "Did he mention to you why he went to Bratunac?
21 "He went to a meeting that was convened by General Mladic and
22 General Krstic.
23 "Q. And did he mention to you what was discussed at the meeting?
24 "A. To submit reports on missions accomplished and missions that
25 might follow after ... taking of Srebrenica.
1 "Q. Okay. Did he mention to you what missions might follow
2 after this [sic] taking of Srebrenica at this time [sic].
3 "A. Well, from what I understand [sic] it was evident that the
4 units of the 28th Division had retreated from Srebrenica but they only
5 pulled out of the town. So that [sic] there was combat in prospect to
6 the west of the town because the units of the 28th Division were still
7 there. They had not been crushed. And that was probably going to
8 determine our next assignments."
9 Now that answer, sir, that you gave is the position of the
10 Prosecution. That was the situation you were in. Do you stand by that
11 statement that I just read to you, the -- those last five lines.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Okay. Then we go on.
14 And did he mention what time this meeting was?
15 "A. I'm not sure. It was some time in the evening. Or at
17 "Q. And other than commanders General Mladic, General Krstic,
18 Commander Pandurevic, did he mention who else was at the meeting.
19 "A. I don't remember. I suppose there were other unit
20 commanders, commanders of units of tactical group strength or brigade
21 strength. I can only suppose but I really don't remember the names."
22 Then we -- he asked you on the bottom of the page what happened
23 while you were in Gostilj. You say on the next page that you were
24 awaiting assignments. I'm going through it a bit more briefly.
25 "And did these new orders come at some point?" In line 4.
1 And you say: "Yes, they did. Tactical Group 1 was ordered to be
2 prepared as backup for Tactical Group 2 which was going to search the
3 terrain, as the terminology went, on the axis of Srebrenica-Viogor
4 village-Suceska village."
5 And later on, we see that you talk about the troops gathering and
6 start moving towards Suceska. In line 20, you say: "We start moving
7 with the commander in his vehicle in the direction of Srebrenica, Viogor,
8 Suceska and we started it was around 1200 hours and we reached our
9 destination at around 1400 hours and maybe 1500 hours."
10 If we go on, we'll see that as we get to the afternoon --
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Next page, please.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we can go to the next page. I would go to
13 page 28.
14 And this is where you're telling what is now should be familiar
15 to us, that around 1700 hours or maybe 1800 hours the Chief of Staff
16 arrived in the Viogor section.
17 That's General Krstic, right, the Chief of Staff of the
18 Drina Corps.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ...
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: I just saw that. Okay let me go on.
21 And then, as we see, the -- General Krstic -- you say:
22 "General Krstic had a conversation with the commander and during that
23 conversation he made us understand that in the Suceska sector there were
24 no units of the 28th Division and that this division had moved in order
25 in the direction of Jaglici village and that we should keep our unit in
1 the Viogor sector and that we should prepare our units [sic] to spend the
3 We go down with a --
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You missed the last word.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: "The night there."
6 Excuse me, "the night there."
7 Thank you. And then I'll skip a question or two. Mr. Vanderpuye
9 "Did you -- did you have any indication as do what your unit was
10 supposed to do next or could you [sic] expect to do next following
11 General Krstic's visit.
12 "A. There were indications that we would prepare our units to
13 proceed with combat activities in the Zepa sector."
14 So there again I think it is now perhaps the third time you don't
15 learn about Zepa until the evening of 12 July. Yet after speaking to
16 Mr. Jevdjevic - and I don't know what was said or if anything was said -
17 you come into this court and testify for the first time that you learned
18 from the 11 July meeting that Zepa was the main operation.
19 How is it, sir, that it's the first time today in 2015 that we
20 hear this from you?
21 A. This claim that I learned that from Jevdjevic is wrong.
22 Secondly, and you're not allowing me to say this, I'm instructed
23 that I should say it at the end but I should say it now, with your leave.
24 And this would give you the explanation as to how come I remember Zepa
25 now and not before.
1 JUDGE ORIE: If it is directly related to that question, you may
2 briefly explain.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the briefest possible way, we
4 knew about Zepa already on the 12th, in the morning. We had a lot of
5 problems with Combat Group 2. They were not mentally and physically
6 prepared to go to the Zepa sector because on the previous few days it had
7 seven dead and one missing. There were even 15 missing in action at some
9 Already that morning they wanted to be replaced by another unit
10 because apparently they did not have either the mental or physical
11 strength to participate in combat in the Zepa sector. That's why I don't
12 understand how come I didn't mention that. But I know that that was one
13 of the reasons why we spent the entire afternoon on the 12th only
14 improving the morale and physical and mental condition of Combat Group 2
15 we didn't want to ask for replacement. We didn't want any other unit to
16 be brought in from the Zvornik Brigade. We wanted to prepare our unit
17 for the task.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think it's break time.
19 JUDGE ORIE: It is break time.
20 We'd like to see you back there 20 minutes, Mr. Dragutinovic.
21 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
22 [The witness stands down]
23 JUDGE ORIE: We'll take a break, and we'll resume at 25 minutes
24 to 2.00.
25 --- Recess taken at 1.16 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 1.36 p.m.
2 JUDGE ORIE: The -- Judge Fluegge, is for urgent personal
3 reasons, unable to continue to hear this case for the next 38 minutes.
4 He'll be back tomorrow with us. Judge Moloto and myself have decided
5 that it's in the interests of justice to continue to hear the case today.
6 Therefore, we will sit under Rule 15 bis.
7 There's another matter I'd just like to briefly address. The
8 testimony that was read to the witness in -- which he has given in 2007
9 seems to --
10 [The witness entered court]
11 JUDGE ORIE: -- to put the announcement that Pandurevic would
12 visit a meeting on that same 12th of July, if I see the sequence well.
13 If -- first of all, if my understanding is wrong but I try to read the
14 portion that is uploaded into e-court, if that impression is wrong, I'd
15 like to hear.
16 If the impression is right, then I at least would like to know
17 whether anywhere in cross-examination the witness distances himself from
18 any of what he said in the examination-in-chief by Mr. Vanderpuye.
19 But please proceed, for the time being, Mr. McCloskey, because I
20 think it would be inappropriate to further discuss the matter in the
21 presence of the witness.
22 Please proceed.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Understood.
24 Q. Sir, I -- I want, with a couple of, questions, sort of set the
25 scene of where we are militarily on the 11th of July and the morning of
1 the 12th.
2 NATO has bombed on the 11th of July. You were injured; correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. The tactical group was able to go into Srebrenica on the early
5 evening hours of 11 July and basically deploy near Gostilj, which is
6 the -- the football pitch in Srebrenica; correct?
7 A. Yes, a bit below the football pitch.
8 Q. And by the evening of 11 July, did the -- does the command that
9 you were part of have any knowledge where the Muslims are? The Muslim
10 army, I should say, the 28th Division.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Where -- where -- where does the command think the Muslims are on
13 the evening of 11 July?
14 A. Since I was not in the command on the 11th of July, I could not
15 have had an opportunity to be present during the assessment as to where
16 the units of the 28th Division could be. That is to say, I'm not aware
17 of this assessment.
18 Q. Okay. But by the morning of the 12 July when you get back with
19 the command, you learn that it's the command's feeling or knowledge that
20 the Muslim 28th Division has fled in the direction or in the area of
22 A. Yes. The assessment was that it concentrated in the area of the
23 village of Suceska.
24 Q. And the VRS forces did not control anything but the Srebrenica
25 town area and the area below that, between Srebrenica and Zeleni Jadar.
1 A. Also on the left, almost to Viogor, the village of Bajramovici
2 where there were parts of Tactical Group 2.
3 Q. So Srebrenica, Zeleni Jadar, over to Bajramovici but in the area
4 of Potocari, that area was still held by the Dutch forces, was it not?
5 A. Where the Dutch forces were I personally did not see that, and I
6 don't know. Just from some conversations, I know that they were in
7 Potocari. As for deployment, no.
8 Q. So by the evening of the 11th of July, NATO is still a threat,
9 isn't it?
10 A. In the evening hours, no; in the afternoon hours, yes.
11 Q. NATO air power was still -- could still be used against Serb
12 forces on the 11th or 12th, could they not? And I mean from your
13 position on the ground. You had to worry about NATO bombing you again,
14 didn't you?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. So if, on the 11th of July, the Muslims are not in Srebrenica
17 town. They're in the direction of Suceska. The majority of the enclave
18 up to Potocari and beyond westward is not in VRS control. NATO is still
19 a threat. It makes no sense militarily for General Mladic to issue an
20 order to prepare troops to march to Zepa on the 11th of July, does it?
21 A. I wouldn't go into Commander Mladic's thinking. I can only think
22 about my own level of thinking, that of a major. Anything beyond that
23 would be pointless.
24 Q. Well, from a major's position, then, that has many lives under
25 his control, would it make sense to send the VRS troops, the hundreds of
1 men deployed in Srebrenica and Zeleni Jadar, the next day, on to Zepa,
2 when NATO's still a threat. You don't -- the Muslims are in the western
3 of the enclave, uncontrolled. The Dutch still hold Potocari. As a
4 major, makes no sense to issue that order at that time, does it?
5 A. At some moment it does make sense for a simple reason, because
6 the units of the 28th Division, quite simply, let the town go. In my
7 view, they left the population at somebody's mercy, which means that they
8 withdrew as deep as possible into the territory or, rather, the enclave,
9 with certain intentions that in my assessment had no combat intention or,
10 rather, no intention to attack units of the Army of Republika Srpska that
11 were attacking Srebrenica. Because from intercepted conversations during
12 the attack on Srebrenica, the commanders themselves, the commanders of
13 the units of the 28th Division, were in total disarray, in disagreement,
14 what to do, whether to withdraw or not, where to assemble, we knew all of
16 Q. Okay. One last time: We know your intelligence told you that
17 the 28th Division had up to 10 to 15.000 able-bodied men, about a third
18 of which were armed. If they are talking a stand in Suceska west of
19 Srebrenica - and we'll get a map in a minute - and with all the other
20 factors I explained, it makes no military sense for a major at that point
21 to have all his troops go off to Zepa, does it?
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection.
23 I think that the witness has responded to that question. It is
24 in the first sentence of the answer to the previous question.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I answer this question once
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm go to object at this point. Asking the same
3 question or a similar question twice is okay in cross-examination,
4 especially when you're not getting much of an answer.
5 JUDGE ORIE: The witness asked whether he may answer that
6 question once again. And he is allowed to do so. The objection is
8 Mr. Stojanovic, in cross-examination the simple line question
9 add, question answered, is not always applicable, and insistence on again
10 an answer to the same question is, under certain circumstances,
12 Therefore, Witness, you may answer the question again. Well,
13 please do so. Whether it makes sense or not for a major.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Our assessment from my point of
15 view and from the point of view of the higher command was that the
16 28th Division, quite simply, did not have the strength to put up any kind
17 of resistance any longer, irrespective of the strength that you refer to,
18 that's a bit exaggerated. So the resistance of the 28th Division over
19 the following days became evident, and that is, that they were not able
20 to resist the army of Republika Srpska.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY:
22 Q. I agree over the following days it did. In fact, on the
23 afternoon of 12 July as you had stated in one of your previous
24 statements, it became -- the VRS became aware, as you did, that the
25 28th Division had largely fled the enclave from the area of Jaglici and,
1 at the same time, Potocari had been taken by the VRS and the MUP. And so
2 the night of the 12th of July is a much different situation than the
3 night of the 11th of July and makes much more sense in order to issue an
4 order to Zepa for the 13th of July; correct?
5 JUDGE ORIE: That's a very complex question, Mr. McCloskey.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From your point of view, yes.
7 It's a bit complex but from your point of view that's the way it
8 seems. But from our military point of view, no.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, your question was pretty compound.
10 And it seems that we are focussing more and more on what makes sense
11 either for a major or for a general, or perhaps even common sense.
12 Military sense, let's move on.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY:
14 Q. Sir, the reason I believe that you have never mentioned orders
15 from General Mladic on the 11th of July before was because you spent the
16 12th of July marching in combat formation to find the Muslims in Suceska,
17 and you knew it made no military sense to receive an order on the 11th of
18 July and tell -- for some reason this testimony you have now come up with
19 receiving an order from Mladic on -- or that you've told of an order of
20 Mladic on the 11th of July. That's my point here. It's all coming back
21 to the 11th of July and what you received.
22 Am I right?
23 A. You're not right. Okay.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's go to a map, we can help maybe get oriented
25 a bit. It shouldn't take too long. P01087. And it's page 14 of the
1 book and if I could, sir, I want to give you a miniature of this map
2 because it's a map that was taken from the Zvornik Brigade and you'll
3 notice, I think, that your name is on the bottom of it. It's hard -- if
4 I can give a physical copy -- it's a little hard to see the whole one
5 from the computer screen.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you'll get a hard copy. It should be shown
7 first, unless Mr. Stojanovic ...
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Perhaps for us we can zero in on the right bottom
9 corner where there should be some names.
10 Q. And, sir, for -- for us that don't read Cyrillic, do you see your
11 name down there in the right-hand corner?
12 A. Yes, yes, I see that.
13 Q. And that's -- the name above you is -- give us the name and
14 what's above you? You see Mihajlo Galic there?
15 A. Major Mihajlo Galic.
16 Q. And below Galic, it says what?
17 A. Major Dragutinovic. Major Dragutinovic.
18 Q. And is that your signature?
19 A. Yes, it is.
20 Q. Can you -- if can you remember, can you just tell us a bit about
21 this -- this map that was -- was retrieved from the Zvornik Brigade in
22 1998 in a search? For example, is it an account of the battles
23 afterward, or is it a -- an account of the battles before, or during
24 or -- or what?
25 A. As far as I can see, the dates are the 1st of September, 1992 to
1 the end of December.
2 You can see it in the left-hand side corner, and it says "working
3 map of the operations department."
4 Q. Yes, and we have a translated version of that on the next page,
5 but I don't think we need worry about that.
6 What I -- what's the purpose of this map? What is this map
7 designed to depict? For example, we see blue and red around the
8 Srebrenica enclave area, and we see blue and red along what is the front
9 line area.
10 Can you just give us a little background on this map. What is
11 it, what's it depicting?
12 A. The purpose of this map is to provide an outline of the
13 participation and activities of the Zvornik Brigade at a certain point in
15 Q. And does that include the -- what the -- how the Zvornik Brigade
16 was deployed and the directions they went in during the Srebrenica
17 operation that you've been describing?
18 A. Yes, in the left part. This is the defence line of the Zvornik
19 Brigade. It partly goes all the way to Vlasenica, Milici, Sekovici, in
20 the direction of Doboj. This is a rather generalised map.
21 And in the right-hand side corner, you can see the contours of a
22 line depicting activities around Srebrenica and the enclave itself.
23 Q. All right.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's go to a blow-up of one section. It should
25 be page 16. If we could ... here we go. And if we could bring it down a
1 little bit so we can get the north of the map. Perhaps that's it. Thank
3 Q. The blue circle in the north of the map --
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we blow that up a bit.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can see that.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY:
7 Q. Now, we can now see the village of Jaglici that is within the
8 general boundaries of that more oval than circle and a feature called
9 Milacevici. What is that oval, blue marking, what is that designed to
11 THE INTERPRETER: The witness needs to come to the microphone.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, witness, could you come -- could you speak
13 into the microphone, please.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.
15 This is it the general sector of withdrawal of the 28th Division
16 from the Suceska sector towards the northern part of the enclave into the
17 Jaglici and Milacevici villages sector.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY:
19 Q. Okay. Can you take a pen and write just a circle --
20 JUDGE ORIE: One second.
21 Witness, you'll be provided with a pen with which you can write
22 on the screen. But wait for a second. The usher will assist you. And
23 do not start marking anything before you have received clear instructions
24 to do so.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY:
1 Q. Can you study the map a bit, find where Suceska is noted. As you
2 mentioned to us, you are a surveyor, a geometra [phoen]. Do you see
3 where Suceska is?
4 A. Yes, I do.
5 Q. Can you just put an oval around the feature of Suceska.
6 A. [Marks]
7 Q. All right. And you've also mentioned the feature of Bojne.
8 Could you ... well, you missed the B but that's going to have be close
10 A. [Marks]
11 Q. And Viogor.
12 A. I believe that this is enough.
13 Q. Okay. And now can you -- you've also mentioned Viogor.
14 A. [Marks]
15 Q. And if we look carefully, we can see -- you've got the V and the
16 i of Viogor, which is written in large letters, vertically on the map.
17 A. Viogor is bigger, but this is a sector of the deployment of the
18 tactical group along the Srebrenica-Milici road. And it suffices for me
19 to just show you where Tactical Group 1 was. I believe that this was
21 Q. Okay. Now the red arrows that we see, we see them protruding
22 from the south of the map going north across Bojne and Srebrenica. Does
23 that reflect the axis of the -- of the movement of those troops?
24 A. You mean the VRS?
25 Q. Yes. Thank you.
1 A. Yes. In the upper part of the map, according to our task, the
2 line that we were supposed to reach was the line that I encircled.
3 Q. At Bojne?
4 A. Yes, Bojne.
5 Q. And the red lines that are going due west on the map towards
6 Suceska, is that the area that you and your unit, Tactical Group 1, were
7 taking on the 12th of July?
8 A. In principle, this is the axis that was used by both
9 Tactical Group 1 and 2 to move along the road Srebrenica-Viogor-Milici
10 old road.
11 Q. Did you draw this or -- is that why your name's on it?
12 A. Probably. If my name's there, then it will be me.
13 Q. And so this red arrow in the north of the map that is coming down
14 from a village called Borici through to Potocari, that reflects the
15 movement, that reflects the movement [Overlapping speakers] ...
16 A. [Overlapping speakers] ... yes.
17 Q. [Overlapping speakers] ... of the Serb forces on -- that took the
18 Potocari area; correct?
19 A. In principle, that was the task of a unit. I can't remember
20 which one. That's why I just outlined that another unit would be in
21 charge of that task. I -- even didn't put its name on the map.
22 Q. Okay.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would offer this into evidence.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Map marked by the witness would receive,
25 Madam Registrar, number.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the map would receive P7148.
2 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we go to 65 ter 04287.
4 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
5 [Prosecution counsel confer]
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. If we could show the Serbian version of
7 this for the witness and perhaps leave the big one up so he can get a
8 view of it.
9 Q. Witness, you may recall seeing this before but it's from the
10 Zvornik Brigade command and it's for July. And we can see that in the --
11 in the translation --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey was asking for having the B/C/S
13 version exclusively on the screen. Yes. And now could it be enlarged.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right.
15 Q. And we see --
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: May be a bit hard to make out but ...
17 JUDGE ORIE: Are you looking for the witnesses?
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: We should see number 8.
19 JUDGE ORIE: 8.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY:
21 Q. And could you just briefly tell us what this is? We see it's for
22 Juli 1995.
23 THE INTERPRETER: The witness needs to move to the microphone.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you asked to [Overlapping speakers] ...
25 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ...
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. In that case I won't
2 see anything on the screen. It's too far.
3 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please. The usher would assist in
4 re-directing the microphone in such a way that you can both see it and
5 that can you be heard as well.
6 THE WITNESS: Okay.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This records presence of manpower
9 in the Zvornik Brigade. The purpose of this is to check the engagement
10 of the manpower, and I can see my name under number 8.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you. That's all I need. I'd like to offer
12 this into evidence.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. McCloskey, I don't understand what all these
15 markings mean. I'm not quite sure I understand the purpose now of
16 tendering this document.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, can we --
18 Q. Can you explain to us briefly what these markings mean, how it
19 relates to attendance ...
20 A. In principle, where you see pluses, that means that the person
21 was present in the unit. Letter T means that the person is in the unit
22 but somewhere on a mission in the field. A C means that the person is on
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: We've got a T in black and a T in red. Can you
25 explain the difference?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No difference at all. People used
2 different pens.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Can we go to the English, please, and keep that
5 up on the screen.
6 JUDGE ORIE: You tendered it. I heard of no objections.
7 Apparently it's -- it will be further explained, Mr. -- you'll further
8 explore this evidence, Mr. McCloskey.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. There's a legend in -- on page 4 in the
11 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Could we have a look at that then to see what
12 is explained us to there.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's -- let's go to page 3 before we go to 4,
15 Q. So, sir, in English, we see abbreviations and an explanation for
16 who they are, what they mean.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could -- I believe it's page 4 in the
19 [Prosecution counsel confer]
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: I may be wrong about that. I apologise. All
21 right. I understand. Those are noted on the main page and we have just
22 for simplicity noted what they are. And these are the people and some of
23 their assignments and abbreviations for the month of July.
24 Q. Is that right, sir?
25 A. I believe that I can see the month of July written on the
1 right-hand side.
2 Q. And if we could get rid of the English and just blow up the big
3 one again.
4 And in the -- the middle of the page, is that -- describes very
5 initials that mean various things, positions, ranks, et cetera; correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. All right.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: And, Your Honour, this will just help us in the
9 future in identifying the people and where they are as the story unfolds.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar the number would be.
11 THE REGISTRAR: The number for 04287 will be P7150.
12 JUDGE ORIE: P7150 is admitted -- let me just check. P7150 is
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: And if we could now go to 65 ter 30229.
15 Q. And as we're waiting for that to come up, sir, have you
16 occasionally been the duty officer at the Zvornik Brigade?
17 A. Yes, but not that often.
18 Q. All right. And that's going to be hard for you to read, but,
19 yeah, hopefully you can make it out. It's from the command of the
20 Drina Corps dated 7 March 1995. It is entitled: Signals table. And
21 it's to the 5th Mixed Artillery Regiment Command, and it says: "We're
22 sending you attached a table of signals in the Drina Corps PVO, which is
23 an anti-aircraft defence system, called Grabovica."
24 Is that correct?
25 A. I can see that but I don't see a link to myself at all.
1 Q. Well, let's read the next sentence. It says: "This signals
2 table is to be used for communicating via communications equipment only
3 among the duty operations centre of the Drina Corps and the duty officer
4 in the brigades (independent battalions)."
5 And we can see it says: "Brigade (independent battalion)
6 commands will produce their own signals tables for command work in the
7 PVO system with their subordinate unit."
8 Then it says: "The Grabovica signals table comes into effect on
9 10 March 1995 at 1400 hours."
10 As a duty officer, did you have to be aware of this kind of a
11 signals information?
12 A. Every duty officer should have a signals table. And these
13 signals tables are used whenever there is an imminent air-strike, which
14 was announced, or things like that. This serves to instruct the units to
15 prepare for defence, to be on alert, and so on and so forth.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right, I'd offer this into evidence.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar the number would be.
18 THE REGISTRAR: 30229 receives number 7151.
19 JUDGE ORIE: P7151 is admitted.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: One last related document and I think --
21 JUDGE ORIE: We are over the time already. But if it would
22 conclude this portion then perhaps, if you move to a totally different
23 subject, with the indulgence of those who are assisting us, please move
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you. 65 ter 30230.
1 Q. Sir, this is my understanding that this was the table that was
2 attached to this letter. And is this the kind of thing that you would
3 have been familiar with? We can see that there's various statements,
4 such as in number 8, "attack on aerial targets, forbidden."
5 And then it says one to ten, "Bura", then 11 to 21, "Cer," and
6 then 22 to 31, "Golub".
7 Does this mean that during those various dates of July there's a
8 different code-name for not attacking aerial targets?
9 A. You can see yourself that from a certain time to a certain time,
10 codes, i.e., names, were changed. From a certain point in time to
11 another point in time the code-name would be "sun" and from 11 to 22
12 would be "night" and then "cloud." Therefore, those signals would be
13 used either for the launch of action or for any other thing. As a matter
14 of fact, that is anti-aircraft defence.
15 Q. All right.
16 A. This is in favour of protecting corps units, i.e., brigade units,
17 and their troops from possible air-strikes. Let's not even mention whose
18 air force would that be.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: This is a good place to stop. I will offer it
20 into evidence.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the number would be.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 30230 receives number P7152.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
24 Witness, we'll adjourn for the day but not until after I have
25 instructed you that you should not speak to anyone or communicate with
1 whomever, not at breakfast, not at lunch, not at 5.00 p.m., with whomever
2 about your testimony. That includes how you have experienced your
3 presence in court when giving your testimony.
4 Is that clear to you, that you should not in any way communicate
5 with whomever about anything related to your testimony?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I fully understand, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Then you may now follow the usher. We'd like to see
8 you back tomorrow morning at 9.30 in the morning.
9 [The witness stands down]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Before we adjourn, I re-read the portion of the 2007
11 testimony, and I think I was a bit confused by the word sometimes "was"
12 sometimes "had been," and that I may have changed my understanding on
13 where the conversations between Pandurevic and the witness are the
14 subject of the testimony and when it was about the meeting, re-reading
15 it, it makes clear to me that it was conversation about what had happened
16 the previous day, that is, at least the content of the testimony again in
18 So, therefore, my request to report if there would be any change
19 in cross-examination is not applicable any further.
20 We adjourn for the day and after having thanked all those
21 assisting us, we adjourn until tomorrow, Thursday, the 26th of February,
22 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, I.
23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.22 p.m.,
24 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 26th day of
25 February, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.