1 Monday, 2 March 2015
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
9 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could the witness be escorted in the
12 And good morning to everyone again.
13 I briefly deal with two matters. The first -- both dealing with
14 the testimony of Milenko Jevdjevic.
15 The first one. On the 23rd of February of this year, during the
16 testimony of the said witness, the Prosecution noted that the English
17 translation of Exhibit P7059 was incomplete. This can be found at
18 transcript page 32095. And on 25th of February, the Prosecution informed
19 chamber via an e-mail that a revised translation had been uploaded into
20 e-court under doc ID 0204-2643-ET and the Registry is hereby instructed
21 to replace the existing translation with the revised one.
22 [The witness takes the stand]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Krcmar.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, I'd like to remind you that
1 you're still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the
2 beginning of your testimony, that you'll speak the truth, the whole
3 truth, and nothing but the truth.
4 Mr. Lukic will now continue his examination-in-chief.
5 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honours, good morning.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
7 MR. LUKIC: Before I continue, I would just offer, since I forgot
8 to offer into evidence, two documents we discussed on Thursday. It's
9 1D5364, to be MFI'd, since there is no translation.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, 1D5364 receives number?
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the number would be D919.
12 JUDGE ORIE: D919 is marked for identification.
13 MR. LUKIC: Thank you. And another one is 1D5367, also to be
15 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the number would be D920.
17 JUDGE ORIE: D920 is marked for identification.
18 Please proceed.
19 WITNESS: GORAN KRCMAR [Resumed]
20 [Witness answered through interpreter]
21 Examination by Mr. Lukic: [Continued]
22 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Krcmar, the Chamber has heard evidence
23 stating that there were members of the Muslim and Croat peoples in the
24 ranks of the VRS. Do you know whether there were any prisoners, Muslims
25 and Croats, people taken prisoner by the Muslim forces?
1 A. Yes. Just like members of the VRS were taken prisoner, Croats
2 and Muslims were taken prisoner by their police too.
3 Q. What was your knowledge? How were they treated in the prisons of
4 the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina or the camps of the Army of
6 A. Yes, when I spoke to them during the exchanges, the information I
7 received was that they fared worse than Serb prisoners in these prisons
8 and camps precisely because they belonged to the Muslim or Croat peoples.
9 That is to say, they were beaten. There were a lot of beatings. They
10 were treated inhumanely. Although treatment of Serbs was not correct
11 either, but they had special treatment in prisons.
12 Q. Were there any Muslims or Serbs who had been taken prisoner and
13 who did not want to be exchanged, and if you could explain that briefly?
14 A. As for Serbs who were taken prisoner and were in Muslim prisons,
15 they all expected the day of exchange. However, as far as Muslims in
16 Serb prisons are concerned, there are cases when they did not want to be
17 exchanged precisely because of that explanation, that they would be
18 mobilised again and that they would have to fight a war again. They
19 asked for contact with the International Red Cross and they asked to go
20 to third countries. We established these contacts for them, but,
21 nevertheless, we had to take them to the line of exchange so that they
22 could state their views before the other side, namely, that they did not
23 wish to go to the other side, so that they could go to third countries,
24 and they could, this way, provide scope for us for an unhindered
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, for pages now, this happened in general,
2 there, et cetera, without any verifiable facts. Just for you to know
3 that, of course, this Chamber very much appreciates if it hears detailed
4 facts such as where this happened, how this happened, et cetera.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Mr. Krcmar, you heard what the Judge is interested in.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you have --
9 A. I understand, I understand. The exchanges that took place
10 between the 1st Krajina Corps of the Army of Republika Srpska and the
11 5th Corps of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina from Bihac, we had quite a
12 few situations when people did not cross over to the side of the
13 5th Corps.
14 As for names, I really cannot go into that now because over
15 10.000 names were dealt with. People who were exchanged on both sides.
16 I simply cannot remember all of these names, but there were cases like
17 this, yes.
18 Q. Now that you're talking about that area, Bihac and the 5th Corps,
19 do you know anything about exchanges of prisoners that happened between
20 the Muslim-protected factions, that is to say, the army that was in
21 Western Bosnia, the Autonomous Region of Western Bosnia, and the
22 5th Corps of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
23 A. Yes, I attended several meetings where missing persons from both
24 sides were discussed. When I say "from both sides," I mean the 5th Corps
25 of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Army of the Autonomous Region
1 of Western Bosnia. That is to say, the two Muslim armies. It was very
2 hard to establish co-operation between those two warring parties.
3 The International Committee of the Red Cross acted as an
4 intermediary and even asked us to help bring these two sides to the
5 negotiating table. Although we managed to organise joint meetings, the
6 process of talks was rather painstaking and rather difficult precisely
7 between these two warring parties.
8 Q. Who addressed you on behalf of the international community asking
9 to you mediate in these negotiations?
10 A. As I've already said, the ICRC and the representatives of the UN
11 at the time, that is to say, the representative was, I think,
12 Ivan Betir [phoen]. I think that was the name.
13 After the war, that gentleman remained in the territory of
14 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and he was an officer in the IPTF.
15 Q. We talked about registering mortal remains in morgues. During
16 the course of your work, did you come across any official information as
17 to how many Muslims from Srebrenica went missing in July 1995?
18 A. I did not come across such information at all because the
19 official lists of missing persons, both in Bosnia-Herzegovina and in
20 Srebrenica, there actually is no such thing. All of that is within the
21 sphere of guess-work, day-to-day politics, or presenting the kind of
22 information that may suit someone at some point in time. So, as I've
23 already said in my statement, right now in Bosnia-Herzegovina, 8- to
24 13.000 missing persons is the figure that is being bandied about in
25 Bosnia-Herzegovina now, which really cannot be serious.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] P4008, please, could we have that
3 Q. I would like to ask you something about this document once we
4 have it on our screens.
5 During proofing, I showed you this document; do you remember?
6 A. Yes, I know what this is.
7 Q. What is your understanding of this document?
8 A. This document shows that the state Commission for the Exchange of
9 Prisoners of War headed by Dragan Bulajic reached an agreement with the
10 Muslim side about the exchange of prisoners of war. What I do not see
11 here is that the military commission negotiated about the exchange
12 because the military commission did not have the mandate to talk about
13 exchanges with the other side when it is civilians that are being
14 referred to.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let us please take a look at the last
17 Q. So the president of the state commission, Dragan Bulajic, shall
18 be allowed to transfer all prisoners from our prisons to Kula prison in
19 the area of Sarajevo-Romanija Corps in order to have the exchange
20 conducted simultaneously on the 5th of October, 1994, and the
21 11th of October, 1994.
22 Why, then, do we see General Tolimir's signature on this
24 A. Well, the Main Staff co-ordinated the issue of POWs and
25 exchanges. As far as I can see, this has to do with an exchange of POWs
1 where there were civilians involved too. So if they were in prisons of
2 the corps, it is logical that the Main Staff had to be involved in such
3 exchanges or in the release of prisoners from prisons that were in the
4 area of responsibility of the corps. If they were really prisoners in
5 prison. I repeat once again: This is an exchange that was agreed upon
6 by the civilian commission, and probably before that, there was some kind
7 of agreement reached at the level of the civilian commission and the
8 Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska. We did not have the mandate
9 or right to discuss anything with regard to civilians on either side.
10 These were clear instructions that we had from the Main Staff.
11 Q. What kind of preparations were supposed to be carried out at the
12 confrontation line?
13 A. In order to have an exchange of POWs, because there were war
14 operations still going on, the Main Staff or the corps command had to
15 make a decision on a cease-fire. So such an activity could not be
16 carried out without the agreement of the Main Staff, actually without a
17 cessation of combat operations. The civilian commission did not have a
18 mechanism or the mandate to stop combat operations because the army was
19 not under its authority. Also there were other cases when civilians
20 would cross from one side to the other. But again, I repeat, that is the
21 Main Staff that had to give their agreement so that combat operations
22 would be stopped on either side.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we briefly just go back to the
24 video now. I think is in indispensable for the sake of context for us to
25 see two other clips. D917 MFI, that's what we're going to see on our
1 screens now.
2 Q. Let's look at 31 minutes, 18 seconds to 31 minutes, 37 seconds,
3 and then I'll have a question for you.
4 [Video-clip played]
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Do you know any of the Serbian soldiers who were killed?
7 A. Yes, I know all the three who were first taken prisoners and then
8 killed on the 21st of September, 1992.
9 It happened between Maglaj Teslic and Tesanj at the feature known
10 as Crni Vrh. We can see a Mujahedin here holding a severed Serbian head
11 in his hand. His name is Nenad Petkovic. His father's name was
12 Tomislav. All the three bodies were received beheaded. To this very day
13 the heads have not been found. All the families have been insisting and
14 calling every day in order to have heads found.
15 I would like to say something else but the case of
16 Nenad Petkovic. We can see his severed head in the video-clip. When the
17 bodies were buried, they would not tell his mother that the body was
18 without a head. Sometime after the war, on the way to Belgrade in
19 Serbia, she was reading a Serbian magazine and she saw her son's head
20 being held by Mujahedin and she died after that.
21 Let me also say that the other two men are Djuric and Blagojevic.
22 Q. Were those photos published in the media already during the war?
23 When were those photos obtained?
24 A. Yes. Perhaps a couple months after those events, during combat a
25 soldier of the BiH army was killed. He was a Mujahedin. Around his neck
1 a camera was found. The film in the camera was developed and that's how
2 these photos and some other photos were obtained. These photos were
3 publicised and -- and people felt hatred. They wanted to revenge, to
4 retaliate, for the way the prisoners of war were treated. Bearing in
5 mind that that was done by the BiH army and its members who hailed from
6 other states rather than from Bosnian-Herzegovina.
7 Q. And now just briefly let me show you something else. And that
8 will bring us to the end of the video.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] 1 hour, 37 minutes, 14 seconds is the
10 beginning, to 1 hour 37 minutes, 48 seconds.
11 [Video-clip played]
12 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "The head was severed at the third
13 cervical vertebrae which is destroyed at that place, showing that the
14 neck was cut by a blow from the blade of a sharp mechanical object."
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Do you know who was doing the post-mortem of the bodies?
17 A. The pathologist was Zoran Stankovic, a forensic expert affiliated
18 with the Military Medical Academy in Belgrade.
19 Q. When did this happen and where?
20 A. These bodies were found in Podrinje in the place called Skelani.
21 Forty locals of -- of Skelani were skilled on the 16th of January, 1993,
22 and their heads were severed.
23 Q. And when was the post-mortem done?
24 A. Immediately after the people were killed. The Muslim forces
25 attacked Serbian villages, killed people, and then withdrew. They left
1 the bodies behind. The bodies were then discovered, and then a judiciary
2 order was issued, post-mortems were carried out, and this was taken from
3 the archives of the MUP of Serbia. That was in 1993.
4 Q. Was the general public abreast of this?
5 A. Yes. The general public followed all of those events. And all
6 one can feel when looking at these scenes is horror, just as we are
7 horrified today when we are looking at things like that.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We can remove that from the screen.
10 Q. Do you have your statement before you?
11 A. No, not yet.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness please be provided with his
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. At the beginning of your testimony, Judge Orie said that we
16 should provide an explanation of the annexes at the end of your
17 statement, those that we tendered as associated exhibits.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to call up 1D05233.
19 Q. Mr. Krcmar, could you tell us where this image from and what does
20 it represent?
21 A. This is an excerpt from the site entitled: "The missing in
22 Republika Srpska." This is an electronic map of Bosnia-Herzegovina which
23 depicts all the municipalities in Bosnia-Herzegovina where burial sites
24 of the Serbian people were found and all the other exhumations that was
25 carried out by the office of the missing persons in Republika Srpska.
1 In these municipalities, if we were to open each and every one of
2 them, we would arrive at 1400 locations of individual and mass graves
3 where a total of 4100 missing persons were found. Out of them we
4 identified about 3500 as I have stated in my statement.
5 And if we look at Republika Srpska, you will see that there are
6 municipalities there where the bodies of Serb soldiers have been exhumed.
7 These municipalities represent the places where our commission carried
8 out the exhumation of Muslims and Croats that we later handed over to the
9 commission of the federation. If we knew that there were burial sites,
10 we carried out -- carried out exhumations of all the bodies that were
11 found there, not only the bodies of Serbs.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, what we see on the screen, is it
13 supposed to be an earlier version of the original?
14 MR. LUKIC: I don't understand the question, Your Honour, I'm not
15 sure if I understood the question.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: I see the left side it's in B/C/S. The right side
17 is in English.
18 MR. LUKIC: It's already on the site in both languages. This is
19 a copy from the site since we cannot have the site in the evidence. So
20 we copied several pages from that site, and I will ask this gentleman
21 about the site as well.
22 JUDGE ORIE: So --
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: So these are not supposed to be a translation of
24 the other.
25 MR. LUKIC: There is translation already on that site --
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: The right side is not a translation of the left
3 MR. LUKIC: Yes, but is already on the site. So you just click
4 the button and you change the language.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps you should clarify. It is not a translation
6 prepared by CLSS. It is an English version which is found on the same
7 web site as where the -- the Serbian version is found. And that means
8 about accuracy, we do not know yet. It may be very accurate. But that
9 is what it is but --
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But for sure --
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: They are not the same.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: They are not the same. They are different.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, if you look and it doesn't take you a lot
14 of time to see on the right on the English version there are at the left
15 bottom, there are two red dots, whereas in the original there are four.
16 So, therefore, the accuracy of it seems not yet to be fully
18 MR. LUKIC: As you know, the sites are alive so they are
19 refreshed over time. So probably the B/C/S version is refreshed faster
20 than English version.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Whatever explanation you have for it, it may be
22 clear that on first sight that at least - explained by whatever - there
23 are differences between the left one, that is the B/C/S one, and the
24 right one which is the English one.
25 Mr. Traldi, you're on your feet.
1 MR. TRALDI: Just to briefly ask that the Defence make clear
2 which they intend to rely upon.
3 MR. LUKIC: We will definitely rely on B/C/S version. And, if
4 necessary, we will add -- although we can explain those differences as
5 well. I think that it's easy, since those places are municipalities --
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Don't testify.
7 MR. LUKIC: Okay. Thank you.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Don't testify.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. At the same time, of course, my -- I would say
10 it's not the first time I put the question. What is here in dispute,
11 that there were -- apparently this is to show that there were many
12 graves, including mass graves, as you said, and it is explained in
13 paragraph 48. This apparently is image 1-1, which, as you say, of what
14 the witness said, that there are 1400 graves with -- in a total -- a
15 total of 4100 bodies were found.
16 I don't know whether that's dispute about that or -- perhaps not
17 the exact number but in general terms.
18 MR. TRALDI: Right. In general terms there is no dispute
19 regarding numbers. Of course, we're happy to speak with the Defence and
20 see if it's possible to come a more specific agreement as well.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, please proceed.
22 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Krcmar, you can see the difference on the
24 screen. In B/C/S, we can see four red dots, and in the English version,
25 we can see only two. Where are the municipalities, do they have anything
1 to do with the map?
2 A. I need to explain. I am the creator of this web site. My
3 intention was to show the suffering of the Serbian people in
4 Bosnia-Herzegovina. If you will allow me, the institutions of
5 Bosnia-Herzegovina, when they mounted an exhibition, they excluded all
6 Serbian burial sites. That's why we created this site. There are no
7 misunderstandings here. Let me just say that on the left-hand side we
8 can see the municipalities of Zadar, Pakrac, and Split. Is this correct?
9 Q. Yes, it is. And Slavonski Brod.
10 A. Yes, and Slavonski Brod. These municipalities are not in
11 Bosnia-Herzegovina. They are in the Republic of Croatia. We found some
12 Serbs who were missing from the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina there.
13 So we can easily ignore these municipalities because they are not on the
14 territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
15 Q. And now we can --
16 JUDGE ORIE: One second. What we can ignore and what we cannot
17 ignore is, first of all, for the Chamber to make up.
18 Mr. Lukic, it is not only that text. There are really
19 differences between the two. For example, if you look at approximately
20 at the middle of the left side, in the B/C/S version I see two blue dots.
21 On the other version, I see only one blue dot. So, therefore, there are
22 differences, there are -- it -- they're just not the same. And if you
23 say, Well, we can explain that, well, first of all, why -- in general
24 there is no dispute about it, that there were many mass graves -- many
25 graves including graves containing many bodies. Therefore, the one is
1 not the same as the other. And whether it can be explained or not, every
2 exhibit should be accompanied by a translation, a reliable translation,
3 accurate translation. Which of the two do you take as your starting
4 point? Do you start with the English, then we need a better version of
5 the B/C/S. If you start with a B/C/S version, then we need a better one
6 in English.
7 MR. LUKIC: We start with B/C/S.
8 JUDGE ORIE: B/C/S. Okay. Then for the time being, we do not
9 have an accurate English version of this document, although, let's be
10 fair as well, it seems that most of the dots are the same, but there are
11 many differences.
12 MR. LUKIC: There are some differences.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Many, many differences.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated].
15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
16 MR. LUKIC: We'll do our best to correct the differences,
17 Your Honours. So this is then -- just use English translation to help
18 Your Honours to understand.
19 JUDGE ORIE: If you agree with the Prosecution on what it more or
20 less depicts and the Prosecution seems to be ready do that, then that
21 saves you a lot of work.
22 Please proceed.
23 Mr. Traldi.
24 MR. TRALDI: And I can say we're in continuing discussions with
25 the Defence about demographic evidence and numbers of dots.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then we'll wait for the outcome of that.
2 Please proceed.
3 MR. LUKIC: Thank you. If we can have 1D05234, please.
4 Again, to be on the safe side, I will rely on the B/C/S version.
5 I don't know how it stands now.
6 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Krcmar, let me ask you this: How often is
7 this site refreshed and updated? Has it been updated recently? Have you
8 had any problems with updating the site?
9 A. As far as the B/C/S version is concerned, it is accurate and
11 The English version takes a bit more time because some technical
12 issues have to be resolved and a translator has to be hired to do that.
13 We rely on the B/C/S version because we're talking about the area of
14 former -- of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the former Yugoslavia, and most of
15 the interested parties come from there. This is a technical issue
16 because there's a discrepancy between the English version and the B/C/S
17 version, but there's nothing wrong with the B/C/S version.
18 Q. Thank you. What do we have before us on the screen? Just
20 A. If we click on one of the municipalities from the previous map,
21 this time we are dealing with Sarajevo, the municipality Centar, the
22 centre, and it shows how many mass graves were found there.
23 Could we zoom in a bit so that I can comment?
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Since the English version is not identical with
25 the B/C/S, we can remove the English one, because the last paragraph, the
1 fourth bullet point is much longer in B/C/S than in English.
2 So if that can be enlarged, the witness can easily read it.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is precisely what we see
4 here, municipality of Sarajevo, Centar. Let me sate that Sarajevo
5 consists of ten municipalities.
6 Here we see that in the municipality of Centar, four mass graves
7 were found. The first one is 28 bodies. The other one is 36 bodies.
8 The third one is 16 bodies. And over here we have three other bodies
9 from the Lav mass grave. Also we can open this version where we see the
10 individual graves; that is to say, there is this distinction between
11 individual graves and mass graves. This time we tried to show mass
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Thank you.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] 1D05235, could we please see that
17 Q. What is this before us?
18 A. Before us is the process of exhumation of one of these four mass
19 graves that were shown. This is the so-called Lav mass grave where
20 36 bodies were exhumed. The Lav mass grave is in the very centre of
21 Sarajevo below the Kosevo hospital. These photographs show how the
22 exhumation took place. There are nine photographs. And on the
23 right-hand side, we have a PDF document that is a list of the bodies that
24 were identified from that mass grave and then there are other bodies that
25 were not identified and they were marked by an NN.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Witness, could you please explain what you mean
2 by on the right-hand side we see a list of victims? Perhaps if you click
3 on the screen, then you will find it, but I don't see a list. Can you
4 explain that?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As we continue, we will see.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I say what I wanted to say.
7 Maybe we should remove the English because again they're not
8 identical, these documents.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Again, any dispute, Mr. Traldi, about an exhumation
10 of the number of 36 bodies of Serb -- of Serbs?
11 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, I think it best be treated as part of
12 our ongoing discussions with the Defence. Specific numbers remain sort
13 of a matter of communication between the parties. Certainly no dispute
14 that there are mass graves in the Sarajevo area or that there's one at
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Lukic, please proceed.
17 MR. LUKIC: I will skip now, since there are only enlarged
18 photographs we see on this one, from 1D05236 up to 1D05243. And then I
19 would go to 1D05244.
20 Q. [Interpretation] Maybe it's easier for you on the screen. I hope
21 that this translation is the same.
22 What is this before us, Mr. Krcmar?
23 A. Precisely what I said a moment ago. If we open the PDF document,
24 we will see the list of all the bodies that were found. If they were
25 identified, then we have the names and surnames of the identified persons
1 and their details. If they are NN, then they remain there as
3 JUDGE ORIE: Now, Mr. Lukic, there was a similar list attached to
4 the statement of the witness, but that one is not identical to what we
5 see on our screen, isn't it?
6 MR. LUKIC: It's not. That's what we discovered during our
7 preparations. Because this one is -- from the computer. Has not been
8 uploaded into the -- on the web site yet.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 MR. LUKIC: Web site is slower process, especially English part
11 of the web site.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, do you want to rely on the one that we
13 have on the screen now or -- because we have as an associated exhibit, of
14 course, we have what seems to be --
15 MR. LUKIC: I would rather rely on this one and it can be
16 replaced which is in the statement since it's a more recent one.
17 JUDGE ORIE: The one on the screen is more recent?
18 MR. LUKIC: No, one in the statement is more recent.
19 JUDGE ORIE: The one in the statement is more recent, yes. It at
20 least gives more details about the -- especially about the unknown
21 deceased persons, including where they are found in the ICMP list,
22 et cetera.
23 Please proceed.
24 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
25 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Krcmar, what do you know about the
1 exhumations themselves? What is your role?
2 A. I don't understand your question. Could you please repeat?
3 Q. What do you know about exhumations in the field? What is your
5 A. From 1996, I have been attending exhumations. Out of these
6 1400 locations, I have dealt with over 80 per cent of them. My role in
7 the quest for missing persons starts with the initial reporting of a
8 missing person either by the family or unit; setting up a database;
9 seeking information on the ground; locating graves, mass graves,
10 individual graves; marking graves; familiarizing the judiciaries in
11 charge of the locations found; and submitting requests to these
12 institutions for carrying out exhumations.
13 I took part the exhumations themselves, then also the
14 transportation of bodies, keeping bodies, post-mortems, taking part in
15 forensic post-mortems. Then identification, inviting families to these
16 identifications, communicating results, and finally handing over the
17 bodies for burial to the families. So that is a complete process, from
18 beginning to end.
19 MR. LUKIC: I would kindly ask now to have D91 --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Before we do so, Mr. Lukic, what do you intend to
21 do? You say you would rely on the more recent one?
22 MR. LUKIC: I just want to place this gentleman's statement on
23 the screen and that page from his statement. Not this 1D exhibit.
24 JUDGE ORIE: No, but they are all mentioned as -- they are
25 mentioned in the statement of the witness and we find the pictures of the
1 newer -- do you want to upload them into e-court so that we have not the
2 one as we find it on our screen, but we have the one which is attached to
3 the witness's evidence --
4 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. That [overlapping speakers] --
5 JUDGE ORIE: So you still have to upload, then, the newer
7 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: And I'm somewhat surprised because the statement was
9 taken in July 2014, that's eight months ago, and now eight months later
10 you still come with what seems to be an older version, which would mean
11 prior to July 2014. I don't know when you uploaded it. I don't know
12 what you -- where you got it from, but for eight months you are at least
13 aware that there's a newer one with more information, which is not in
15 MR. LUKIC: I -- we tried to download from the site what we found
16 on the site, but in the statement, that's true, are newer --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Then you're supposed to copy this from the
18 statement, scan it, copy it, upload it into e-court so that at least we
19 have the same versions in e-court as we find them as attached to the
20 statement of the witness.
21 Please proceed.
22 MR. LUKIC: We need D916 on our screens. And we need page 14.
23 Q. [Interpretation] The Lav grave is in front of us now.
24 First of all, where were these people found? What kind of grave
25 is this?
1 A. Since we've skipped these photographs, I need to explain.
2 These bodies were found 4 metres away from the road, underneath
3 the Kosevo hospital, deep down, after the bodies that were later buried.
4 Actually, over the Lav grave, newborn children were buried. So we had
5 quite a few problems in order to carry out this exhumation; namely that
6 we could remove the newborns in order to reach this grave. There were
7 terrible obstructions from the federal commission and they did not allow
8 the removal of these bodies. So the grave containing 36 bodies was
9 masked with the bodies of newborn babies.
10 Q. On this table, the third group horizontally from the bottom, the
11 first column, it says Fadil Kujovic. In your view, what would his
12 ethnicity be?
13 A. He's a Muslim. We identified that body, and we handed it over to
14 the family so that they could bury him. The identification took place in
15 2012, as far as I can see here.
16 Q. Samir Hasanbegovic is next to him?
17 A. Yes. Samir Hasanbegovic who was born in 1968, 1968. He is also
18 a Muslim.
19 Q. And in line 3, just one line up, we see Djelal Hodzic. That's
20 what's written there.
21 A. Yes. Djelal Hodzic, born in 1956, is also a Muslim. These
22 bodies were identified considerably earlier and handed over to Sejo Koso,
23 a member of the exchanges commission, and then he handed the bodies over
24 to the families for burial.
25 Q. These three Muslims, were they found together with the Serbs who
1 were buried, as you say, very deep, 4 metres deep?
2 A. They were found with the Serbs. I did not say that it was
3 4 metres deep. I said that it was 4 metres away from the road. The
4 depth was 2 metres.
5 Q. During the course of your work, did you find out how come these
6 three bodies of deceased Muslims were buried there? Do you know how they
7 lost their lives?
8 A. Since this is Sarajevo, the centre of town, the Serb army and
9 Serbs could not be in Sarajevo at the time. That is to say, this was
10 directly under the control of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. How they
11 died, we don't know. Just like we don't know how come these Serbs of
12 ours were killed too. Probably somebody tried to conceal a crime and
13 bury them together with Serbs.
14 I would just like to add one more thing. What happened --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Before you do so, you say you don't know how they
16 died. Have any post-mortems been conducted on these bodies?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, all the bodies that were
18 exhumed, all 4.100 were dealt with forensically -- well, yes, yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: I'm talking about these. It says 36. I think I
20 find 39 boxes in the scheme, but were post-mortems conducted on those
21 persons found here?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're right, 39. And now I'm
23 going to explain the 39. Yes, all of them were dealt with forensically,
24 but a forensic medical expert can testify about that.
25 JUDGE ORIE: But do you know the outcome of it? I mean, I'm not
1 asking for any details, but in your work, did you ever find that they
2 were killed, for example, by shot wounds or that they were killed by
3 strangling? I mean, sometimes even without knowing the details of the
4 forensic expert conclusions, you sometimes can read what the final
5 conclusion is.
6 Are you aware of the conclusion in relation to these persons in
7 general and, more specifically, about the three Muslims found among them?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I know that they suffered a
9 forceable death, a violent death. I suppose that forensic experts could
10 tell you more about the nature of their wounds. I can't talk about that.
11 I only know that they died a violent death.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
13 MR. LUKIC: It's break time.
14 JUDGE ORIE: It's break time anyhow.
15 MR. LUKIC: I can inform that I will use less time than I
17 JUDGE ORIE: And how much time --
18 MR. LUKIC: 10, 15 minutes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: 10, 15 minutes left. Then we'll take a break.
20 We'd like to see you back in 20 minutes, and you may follow the
22 [The witness stands down]
23 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at ten minutes to 11.00.
24 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.
25 --- On resuming at 10.53 a.m.
1 JUDGE ORIE: While we're waiting for the witness to come in, I'll
2 deal with the second remaining issue related to the testimony of
3 Milenko Jevdjevic.
4 P7136 was marked for identification on the 23rd of February of
5 this year, during the testimony of Jevdjevic, pending a translation.
6 This can be found at transcript page 32082. On the 25th of February, the
7 Prosecution informed the Chamber via an e-mail that a translation had
8 been uploaded into e-court under doc ID number 0320-4600-ET. The Chamber
9 hereby instructs the Registry to attach the translation and admits into
10 evidence P7136 under seal.
11 [The witness takes the stand]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, if you're ready, you're invited to
14 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Krcmar, we're coming to the end of this
16 examination. I'm going to ask you how many Serbs have been exhumed in
17 Sarajevo so far?
18 A. A total of 471 bodies have been exhumed so far.
19 Q. Was anybody held accountable, was anybody convicted for crimes
20 against the Serbs in Sarajevo?
21 A. As far as I know, nobody has been held accountable for the
22 471 bodies that I have just mentioned. There was a trial in respect of a
23 group of perpetrators or a group of victims, but in that case, the person
24 was found to be unfit for trial.
25 Q. It hasn't been recorded. What burial site was that about?
1 A. It was the burial site called Kazani, a pit above Sarajevo into
2 which the bodies of the Serbs were thrown.
3 Q. Since we have mentioned that burial site, what has happened to
5 A. That grave, in the course of 1993 and 1994, was moved from that
6 location. The bodies were moved to Sarajevo, and they were buried in the
7 Kosevo football pitch in Sarajevo. A total of 27 bodies were buried
8 there. There was 27 markings during the exhumation, 26 bodies were
9 buried, and the last -- one of the last markings, actually, marked the
10 bones of an animal, of a dog.
11 Q. You said the auxiliary Kosevo football pitch; right?
12 A. Yes, it's a football pitch in Sarajevo.
13 Q. Are we talking football?
14 A. Yes, football. Football.
15 Q. And now let's move to Bihac. Only in our minds, of course. Is
16 there a barracks in Bihac?
17 A. Yes. Its name is Adil Beslic. It used to be called the
18 Luka barracks during the war. Now it's the barracks of the armed forces
19 of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
20 Q. During the war, who was billeted there?
21 A. The command of the 5th Corps of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina
22 was billeted there during the war.
23 Q. How is your work connected to the barracks?
24 A. I know that in the course of 1994 and in 1995, 21 Serbian
25 prisoners were held there. We were involved in negotiations to set those
1 people free. Unfortunately, they never came out alive. All the
2 21 prisoners were killed in the barracks.
3 In the course of 1996, we received six bodies in exchange from
4 that barracks and we identified them. On several occasions, we tried to
5 carry out an exhumation, and then in the year 2000, in that same barracks
6 where the forces of the BiH are now billeted, we found a mass grave
7 containing eight bodies of the 21. They were exhumed, identified, and
8 their bodies were handed over to their families. In that barracks, there
9 are still the bodies of seven people. We obtained that information owing
10 to the fact that we actually bought the information. Our informer had
11 told us about the remaining seven bodies, and that the former commander
12 who was billeted in the barracks as well as the current commanders of the
13 barracks should be aware of their whereabouts.
14 Q. Who were members of the command during the war?
15 A. During the war, one of the commanders of the barracks for
16 logistics was Major Mujo Begic.
17 Q. And now what is his position?
18 A. Mujo Begic has obtained a doctoral degree, his topic was war
19 crime, and he is the head of the office of the Institute for Missing
20 Persons of Bosnia-Herzegovina headquartered in Bihac.
21 Q. You said that he was the head of the Bihac office?
22 A. Yes, that what's I said.
23 Q. How many offices does the institute of Bosnia-Herzegovina
24 currently have?
25 A. Currently they are there 16 offices of the institute located
1 around Bosnia and Herzegovina.
2 Q. Since the federal offices have been established, how many Serbs
3 have these 16 offices located over the past six years?
4 A. Thirteen offices are on the Bosnia-Herzegovina Federation side,
5 and those 13 offices have located only three Serb bodies. Two in
6 Zavidovici and one in the territory of Travnik.
7 Q. Mr. Krcmar, thank you. This is all that we had prepared for you.
8 A. Thank you.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
10 Mr. Traldi, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?
11 MR. TRALDI: Yes, Mr. President.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krcmar, you'll now be cross-examined by
13 Mr. Traldi. You find Mr. Traldi to your right. Mr. Traldi is counsel
14 for the Prosecution.
15 Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
16 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Mr. President.
17 Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi:
18 Q. Good morning, sir.
19 A. Good morning.
20 Q. Now, sir, you testified in the Delic case; right?
21 A. I did.
22 Q. And you gave statements to the OTP in 2005 and 2007, as you've
23 discussed earlier; right?
24 A. I have not received interpretation. No interpretation.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please repeat your question, Mr. Traldi.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes.
2 MR. TRALDI:
3 Q. And your testimony in the Delic case, as well as the statements
4 you gave in 2005 and 2007, that was truthful evidence you were providing;
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now, you gave an interview to the OTP in 2010 as well; right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And did you tell the truth on that occasion too?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now, you mention you're head of the Department for Tracing
12 Missing Persons in the State Centre for War Crimes Research. That's
13 obviously the Republika Srpska Centre for Tracing Missing Persons; right?
14 A. I think we were talking at cross-purposes. I was the head of a
15 team of the government of Republika Srpska for tracing missing persons up
16 to 2012.
17 In 2012, the republican centre and the operative were merged into
18 one institution and now it's called Republican Centre for the Research of
19 War Crimes and Tracing Missing Persons. I am currently the chief of the
20 Department for Tracing Missing Persons. I'm not the head of the entire
22 Q. Now, your work up to 2012 had been with the Republika Srpska
23 government; right?
24 A. From 1996 until this very day, I have been working for the
25 government of Republika Srpska. But the names of the institution has
1 changed. It was the institute, the commission, the office, the
2 operative, and now it is the republican centre. However, my job has
3 remained the same.
4 Q. And in that job, it's fair to say your work focuses largely on
5 cases involving missing Serbs; right?
6 A. Amongst other things. However, in my work, as I've already told
7 you, we have also traced over 300 missing Muslims and Croats.
8 Q. Now you mentioned the number of 4100 people on direct examination
9 that were reflected on the web site. Are the 300 Muslims and Croats you
10 just mentioned included in those 4100 or additional to it?
11 A. The site comprises only those persons who were reported to us as
12 missing. In this case, the 300 people have never been reported to us.
13 We found them, exhumed them, and we handed them over to the federal
14 commission or directly to their families, depending on the case.
15 Q. Sir, I'm aware we're talking about your area of professional
16 expertise, but I'd just ask you to try to provide a focused answer to the
17 questions that I'm asking you.
18 And, in this case, I take it, that those 300 people are not part
19 of the 4.100 you mentioned earlier; right?
20 A. Yes, that's correct. With them, it would be over 4100, so they
21 would be on top of the figure. You are right there.
22 Q. Now while your work primarily relates to missing Serbs, you
23 co-operate with institutions that are looking for missing Muslims as
24 well, you go to meetings together, talk to them about your work; right?
25 A. Yes, that was up to 2008. That's how things were up to then.
1 Q. And in the course of doing so, you receive information about
2 missing Muslims, missing Croats, and also you learn about crimes that may
3 have been committed that resulted in those people becoming missing;
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now I want to turn now two of the terms you discussed on direct
7 examination and try to distinguish very carefully, if you'll assist us.
8 First, the term "cases" that you discussed at some length, that
9 refers to bodies or parts of bodies that have been located but have not
10 yet been identified; right?
11 A. Only body parts. Bodies are bodies. In the forensic science
12 there is not a term "case." That term, the term "case" has been
13 established --
14 Q. Sir, I'm going to -- I'd asked a very specific question and I
15 understood you to answer that the term "cases" refers to body parts;
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, the term "missing persons," on the other hand, refers to
19 persons who have been reported as missing and whose remains have not yet
20 been identified; right?
21 A. Yes, everybody who has a name. The first and the last names.
22 Q. And the parts of bodies that comprise cases as a general rule,
23 have been exhumed years after the war, sometimes 20 or more years after
24 they'd been killed; right?
25 A. Yes. Ever since 1996.
1 Q. And many of them are partial because the bodies were buried in
2 mass graves and often reburied, moved to other locations or -- sorry,
3 excavated, moved to other locations and reburied, in that order, of
4 course, using heavy machinery of the sort that might disturb the
5 integrity of a given set of remains; right?
6 A. Yes, there were cases like that. Bodies were, indeed, moved into
7 secondary graves.
8 Q. And you're aware that, for instance, the ICMP maintains a very
9 large database of genetic samples so as to compare remains which are
10 located and tested to about 150.000 samples of the DNA of relatives of
11 people who have been reported as missing; right?
12 A. Yes, whenever families provided blood for DNA testing, ICMP has
13 the results. But there were also cases of families refusing to provide a
14 sample and that's where the ICMP has a problem. There are also cases
15 where all the families went missing or there's not a very close family
16 member to provide a blood sample.
17 Q. Now, you estimated on Thursday that there about 2.500 bodies in
18 morgues pending identification. And you'd agree with me that separate
19 from those bodies still in the morgue, 20 years after the conflict, there
20 are 7.000 or more people, based on publicly available information, who
21 have been reported missing and whose remains have not yet been
22 identified; right?
23 A. That's not the case. We cannot agree about that. We cannot
24 agree that there 7.000 cases pending. There is no record of missing
25 persons in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and that's why the figure is being
1 manipulated and ranges from 8.000 to 13.000. I'm not going to state and
2 favour any of these figures because there is not a clear record. The
3 record hasn't been established so it is really not serious to come up
4 with any figures.
5 Q. I'm going to leave that topic for the moment and I'm going to
6 turn now to your evidence about the 1st Krajina Corps Exchange Commission
7 which you discussed in your statement and very briefly during direct
9 Now, you mentioned that each of the VRS corps had its own
10 exchange commission. Did those exchange commissions all function
11 similarly within their areas of responsibility?
12 A. There were six commissions. They operated based on the
13 instructions received from the corps commands and the Main Staff of the
14 Army of Republika Srpska. And then depending on the situation of the
15 commission or the corps and the number of losses, they did what they were
16 supposed to do, but I -- we cannot say that they functioned in the same
17 way because the issues that they dealt with and the circumstances were
19 Q. I understand they wouldn't have faced exactly the same issues or
20 circumstances. But they functioned under similar regulations, similar
21 orders, addressing similar types of problems; right?
22 A. Yes, that's correct.
23 Q. Now you say you began serving as a member of the commission in
24 1993. Who was your immediate superior when you were a member of the
1 A. Nedeljko Savic, the president of the commission.
2 Q. And who was his superior?
3 A. Along the hierarchy line of the command, it was the department
4 for morale, guidance, and religious issues, the commission was under its
5 authority, and the person in charge was Colonel Jovo Blazanovic, if I'm
6 not mistaken.
7 Q. Now, in your statement you discuss -- you provide evidence about
8 prisoners and about the activities of the exchange commission. Should we
9 understand your evidence about prisoners and about the activities of the
10 exchange commission to refer to the time-period when you served as a
11 member of the exchange commission?
12 A. We can say from April 1993 until April 1996.
13 Q. Now, you discuss both civilian and military exchange commissions
14 in your statement. The military exchange commissions had close
15 co-operation with the civilian exchange commissions; right?
16 A. We co-operated closely with the civilian commission for the
17 exchange but that went through the Main Staff of the Army of
18 Republika Srpska and the corps commands. We couldn't do anything without
19 their instruction or if information was not provided to us either by a
20 corps command or the Main Staff. It all depended on the problem and its
22 Q. And at times, with the consent, of course, and on the order of
23 your superior commands, you would co-operate with the civilian commission
24 in the implementation of a particular exchange; right? A particular
25 exchange might involve organising efforts and representatives of both the
1 military exchange commission and the civilian exchange commission.
2 A. I did not understand you. Did you mention the Supreme Command?
3 Did you have in mind the Main Staff or who did you have in mind?
4 Q. When I referred to your superior commands, I was referring to the
5 corps command and the Main Staff as you had just referred to, sir.
6 A. Yes. Now I understand. You may continue.
7 Q. Before I do, would you mind answering the question that I had
8 asked. And I can repeat it, if that would assist.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps that would be good.
10 MR. TRALDI:
11 Q. So with the consent and on the order of your superior commands,
12 which refers to the corps command and the Main Staff, you would
13 co-operate with the civilian commission in the implementation of
14 particular exchanges; right? A particular exchange might involve
15 organising efforts by and representatives of both the military exchange
16 commission and the civilian exchange commission.
17 A. Yes, we worked exclusively on the instructions of the Main Staff
18 and the corps commands.
19 JUDGE ORIE: That's still not an answer to the question.
20 The question was whether on particular exchanges the civilian
21 commission and the military commission would have a joint effort in
22 organising such exchanges. That was the question.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We didn't have any joint exchanges.
24 If a civilian commission agreed the exchange, it would be in charge of
25 its implementation. And if, on the other hand, it was a military
1 commission who agreed an exchange, it would also implement it.
2 MR. TRALDI:
3 Q. Let me perhaps see if can I ask in a very focused way.
4 There were times, weren't there, when, at a particular time in a
5 particular place, the civilian exchange commission and the military
6 exchange commission both brought people to that place to be exchanged,
7 and people were received from the Muslim side in the course of being
8 exchanged; right?
9 A. Yes. But everybody brought people in within the domain of their
10 own agreement and handed them over.
11 Q. And among the members of the civilian exchange commission -- I'm
12 speaking now of the Republika Srpska level civilian exchange commission
13 at the time you served on the 1st Krajina Corps commission, so April 1993
14 through the end of the war. During that period, there were VRS officers
15 who served on the civilian exchange commission; right?
16 A. On the commission of the 1st Krajina Corps, nobody worked in the
17 civilian commission. Nobody from there.
18 Q. Well, sir, I'm going to sorry to interrupt and just clarify. You
19 referred to a man named Dragan Bulajic in your statement. That's
20 Captain Dragan Bulajic; right?
21 A. I don't know what rank Mr. Bulajic held. He was on the civilian
22 commission, not the military commission, and he had no authority with
23 regard to resolving the question of POWs. He had nothing to do with the
24 Main Staff and our military commissions. So he was appointed by the
25 president of the republic, not the Main Staff, not the corps.
1 Q. Sir --
2 A. Also he did not report to us.
3 Q. Sir, I'm certainly not -- I didn't ask whether he reported to
4 you. I didn't ask who appointed him. All I asked is: Dragan Bulajic
5 was a VRS officer; right?
6 A. As far as I know, Dragan Bulajic was not a soldier of the Army of
7 Republika Srpska, the VRS.
8 Q. Do you know what job he held in 1992 before he became president
9 of the civilian exchange commission?
10 A. I really don't know.
11 Q. Well, let's look at a document.
12 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 08207.
13 Q. Now, this is a document sent by the Sokolac municipality's POW
14 exchange committee. It's dated the 9th of November, 1992, and it's
15 addressed to the Army of Republika Srpska, Lukavica committee for
16 exchange and freeing of POWs. Attention: President Dragan Bulajic.
17 Now, the Army of Republika Srpska exchange committee based at
18 Lukavica was, of course, the SRK's exchange commission; right?
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Traldi, did you say SRK?
20 MR. TRALDI: I did and --
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're translated as RSK.
22 MR. TRALDI: And that's a very important distinction. Thank you
23 very much, Your Honour. I'll reask.
24 Q. The Army of Republika Srpska exchange committee based at Lukavica
25 was the exchange commission of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps of the VRS;
2 A. As far as I know, that's where the headquarters were of the
3 military commission of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps at Lukavica and
4 Dragan Bulajic had separate office at Lukavica. But this has to do with
5 the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps. I can testify here about the
6 1st Krajina Corps.
7 Q. Sir, you co-operated with -- your corps' exchange commission
8 co-operated with the other corps' exchange commissions; right?
9 A. Yes, that's right.
10 Q. In fact, you knew what building Dragan Bulajic's office was in,
11 as you've just testified, didn't you?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. When you said that Captain Bulajic had an office at Lukavica, two
14 follow-up questions.
15 First, you're referring to the Lukavica barracks; right?
16 A. In the barracks, that's where the military commission was. Maybe
17 I should make a correction. I think that Mr. Dragan Bulajic had an
18 office at Grbavica. I think. I am afraid that I may be making a
19 mistake. But these were two separate offices, not one, which is what you
20 have been alluding to.
21 Q. Well, what I'm alluding to is what this document clearly says
22 about November 1992. When you say that they had separate offices, you're
23 referring to the period when you were on the exchange commission, 1993
24 through the end of the war; right?
25 A. Yes, but you're asking me something that is outside the authority
1 of my corps and outside the time when I was on the commission for
3 Q. Sir --
4 A. I really cannot testify about this because I --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, let me be clear on that. Whatever your
6 authority was or the authority of your corps, you're questioned about
7 what you know. If you know anything about it, tell us; if you say, I
8 don't know, tell us as well. But don't tell us that it was beyond your
9 responsibilities and that for that reason you can't give testimony on
10 that. Whatever you know, you're supposed to tell us in response to
12 Please proceed.
13 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, I'd tender 65 ter 08207.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
15 MR. LUKIC: I'm a bit hesitant but I would object since this
16 gentleman has no knowledge about this document and has nothing to do with
17 the time-period.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Well, he testified about offices in Lukavica and
19 that Lukavica was barracks different from Grbavica. So therefore the
20 witness did, although not extensively, testify on this document.
21 Madam Registrar.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, document number 08207 receives
23 number P7158.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
25 Please proceed.
1 MR. TRALDI:
2 Q. Now, the Chamber has received evidence from a Main Staff officer
3 named Spiro Pereula. He also served on the civilian exchange commission;
5 A. I don't know anything about that man.
6 Q. Now returning to Captain Bulajic. He was appointed president of
7 the civilian exchange commission in 1993; right?
8 A. I don't know when he was appointed. He was appointed president
9 of the civilian commission, now I don't know exactly -- was it 1993?
10 Q. Well, before him, there was a president of the civilian
11 commission named Nenad Vanovac; right?
12 A. I really do not know about the structure of the civilian
13 commission. In 1993, when I arrived, Dragan Bulajic was there. I really
14 don't know --
15 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We didn't hear the end of
16 the answer.
17 MR. TRALDI:
18 Q. Sir, have you been asked to repeat the end of your answer. The
19 interpreters weren't able to hear it.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could all unnecessary
21 microphones please be switched off. Thank you.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know anything about these
23 people. In 1993, when I was appointed to the commission of the
24 1st Krajina Corps, Dragan Bulajic was also president of the civilian
25 commission. I'm not aware of the structure as it existed before that.
1 MR. TRALDI:
2 Q. Now, it's your evidence that it was the civilian exchange
3 commission that was responsible for exchanging non-Serb civilians who,
4 through that process, were exchanged out of Republika Srpska territory;
6 A. I assert that the civilian commission did not have the mandate to
7 deal with the military and that it was in charge of civilian affairs,
8 civilian persons and --
9 Q. Sir, I'd ask you to confirm, if you can, the specific proposition
10 that I put to you, that it's your evidence that the civilian exchange
11 commission was responsible for exchanging non-Serb civilians who, through
12 that process, were exchanged out of Republika Srpska territory. Is that
13 your evidence, yes or no?
14 A. No, not in this sense. The civilian commission was in charge of
15 civilians, all Serbs, Croats, Muslims, all the rest.
16 Q. The people that the civilian commission exchanged with the
17 commission on the Muslim or Croat side, those people left
18 Republika Srpska as a result of the exchanges, didn't they?
19 A. I didn't go into the powers of that commission, what they did,
20 how they did that. I can repeat this. I can testify about the military
21 commission, military exchanges. I was not on that other commission. I
22 don't know what people did. I know that --
23 Q. Sir --
24 A. Please.
25 Q. I put to you that the reason that you are suggesting that you
1 don't know that the civilian exchange commission exchanged civilians who
2 left Republika Srpska as a result, is that you're aware that it's alleged
3 that the civilian exchange commission, in doing so, was -- was part of
4 the process of ethnically cleansing Serb-claimed territory. You're aware
5 of those allegations, aren't you?
6 A. That is what you are claiming. That is not what I have been
8 Q. You're aware that since the war, in fact, beginning early in the
9 war, allegations were made that the exchange process was part of the
10 machinery of ethnic cleansing; right?
11 A. No. Please. There was a process of exchanging POWs that I can
12 testify about here. What you have asked me about is something that I
13 cannot testify about because I did not take part that any such thing.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, sometimes we -- even without taking part in
15 something, you may have knowledge about it. If you have any knowledge
16 about it, please tell us, irrespective of whether you took part in it.
17 And one of the previous questions that Mr. Traldi put to you is whether
18 the civilians who were exchanged, in the context of that exchange left
19 Republika Srpska. That was a question which has not been answered yet by
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I shall respond to you,
22 Your Honour.
23 Civilians, as far as I know, were not exchanged. Civilians left
24 voluntarily in organised fashion, either to third countries or the
25 territory of the present-day Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
1 JUDGE ORIE: But irrespective now, those who -- no, I leave it to
3 Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
4 MR. TRALDI:
5 Q. Sir, I put to you that Captain Bulajic was the president of an
6 exchange commission, not a people-leaving-voluntarily commission and your
7 testimony in this regard is not credible. Do you have any comment on
9 A. I have no comment what -- as to what Dragan Bulajic did. But I
10 repeated to you a moment ago what it was that I know.
11 Q. I'm going to turn now to another area of what you know --
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Before do you that --
13 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ...
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Before you do that, I would kindly ask the
15 witness to explain the word "in organised fashion." You said:
16 "Civilians left voluntarily in organised fashion." Who organised that?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can say about Banja Luka because
18 I'm from Banja Luka and I was there at the time. There was an agency
19 that organised departures of persons from Banja Luka. They applied to
20 that agency, and I know that when we, military commissions, negotiated
21 with the other sides, then that time was used for people to take buses
22 and come to the separation line and cross to the other side from there.
23 That is to say, these departures were organised. Now was it for family
24 reunification or something like that, people left in that organised way.
25 They didn't leave out of detention facilities or prisons but they left of
1 their own free will.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You didn't quite answer my question. I was
3 asking you who organised that? Because you said in general terms it
4 was -- they left in organised fashion. Now you said: "There was an
5 agency that organised departures of persons from Banja Luka." Which
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot, I really don't know the
8 exact answer now. There was this agency of the government that had
9 nothing do with the military. This agency that was for the departure of
10 these persons. Now whether some people went to third countries, I know
11 that you could go that way and I know that people could go to the
12 present-day territory of the federation.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You said "this agency of the government." Which
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I told you what it is that I know.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Which government?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is an agency of the government
19 of Republika Srpska that had an agency. Now, did it really belong to the
20 government of Republika Srpska? I know that such an agency did exist,
21 but it was not within the domain of my own work.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
23 JUDGE ORIE: I have one follow-up question to you.
24 You said there were no exchanges. People only voluntarily left.
25 One of your answers, and I read it, was, asked about civilian commission
1 and the military commission:
2 "We didn't have any joint exchanges. If a civilian commission
3 agreed exchange, it would be in charge of its implementation. And if, on
4 the other hand, it was a military commission who agreed an exchange, it
5 would also implement it."
6 Which at least suggests that you have the opinion that civilian
7 commission agreed exchanges and not only facilitated voluntary departure.
8 Any comment on what I just read?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do have a comment. As for
10 the Federation, many Serbs from that side came to Republika Srpska
11 voluntarily on buses. Also, on the same day, from Banja Luka, from
12 Republika Srpska, actually, Muslims and Croats would cross over to the
13 other side. Now can we call that an exchange or could we call it a
14 crossing? That is a question of terminology.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
16 MR. TRALDI:
17 Q. The head of the agency in Banja Luka that you referred to a
18 moment, you know that to be Radovan Glogovac, don't you?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, the Chamber has also received evidence from him. He
21 testified he was appointed to the exchange commission at the suggestion
22 of President Karadzic and of Minister Ostojic. Were you aware of that?
23 A. No, no.
24 Q. I'm going to turn now to another area. I notice in your
25 statement you claim you were mobilised into the VRS at the beginning of
1 the war. In fact, in May 1992, you became a member of the special unit
2 of the Banja Luka CSB; right?
3 A. Yes, I was mobilised first into the corps military police. The
4 army, that is, the Army of Republika Srpska. And then I was transferred.
5 My military occupational specialty is that of policeman, so then I was
6 assigned to the civilian police and I spent some time there, I don't know
7 exactly how long, and then I returned to the Army of Republika Srpska.
8 Q. I'm going to explore that in a little more detail but I want to
9 start with a couple of very focused questions.
10 Who was it, if you recall, that told you you had been assigned to
11 the civilian police?
12 A. I don't understand. I don't understand the question. Who said
13 what to me? I was called up, and my VES, my military occupational
14 specialty, was that of a policeman.
15 Q. Well, you said were mobilised into the military and then you were
16 assigned to the civilian police. How was it that you were assigned to
17 the civilian police. How was that communicated to you?
18 A. Well, probably call-up. After all these years, I cannot give an
19 answer. It's been a long time, and I've really been dealing with other
20 problems, a lot more difficult ones, so this was not in the focus of my
22 Q. When you were called up and told you were part of this special
23 civilian police unit, you reported to a place called Rakovacke Bare in
24 the Banja Luka area; right?
25 A. Yes, that's where that unit was stationed, that police unit.
1 Q. And that had previously been a JNA facility; right?
2 A. I really don't know. I really don't know what it was used for.
3 Q. A lot of people who had been in the military police with you came
4 over to this civilian police unit together with you; right?
5 A. Yes, I saw some of the people who were with me in the military
6 police. I saw them there at the civilian police.
7 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 07096.
8 Q. As it comes up, this will be a report on the activities of the
9 CSB Banja Luka Special Police Detachment.
10 Now, at the bottom of page 1 in the B/C/S, and turning to page 2
11 in the English, and in the English, we're at the bottom of page 2, we
12 read that in co-operation with the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina
13 army units, the detachment participated in combat, and it refers to the
14 territory of several municipalities, including Bosanski Novi, Prijedor,
15 Sanski Most, and at the end, Kotor Varos.
16 That's right, isn't it, what we read there?
17 A. Yes, that is precisely what it is written, just as you read it
19 Q. And the detachment did, in fact, participate in combat in
20 co-operation with the VRS in those municipalities; right?
21 A. Out of these municipalities, I just know about the municipality
22 of Kotor Varos.
23 Q. When you saw just know about the municipality of Kotor Varos, you
24 mean you were deployed there yourself as a member of this unit; right?
25 A. Yes. For a while, for about 15 or 20 days. I'm not sure. 15?
1 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I tender this document.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, document bearing number 07096
4 receives number P7159.
5 JUDGE ORIE: P7159 is admitted.
6 MR. TRALDI:
7 Q. And we discussed members of the military police with you who had
8 also come over to the special unit. A number of the members of the
9 Banja Luka Serb Defence Forces, or SOS, also became part of this special
10 unit; right?
11 A. I cannot speak about the people who were joining in there. The
12 people who received call-up papers were there. I don't really understand
13 what it is that you're asking about when you say "Defence Forces."
14 MR. TRALDI: Let's have 65 ter 06899.
15 Q. Now, this is Glas from the 29th of April, 1992.
16 MR. TRALDI: And in the B/C/S, we're looking for the bottom right
17 part of the page.
18 Q. And in the third paragraph - sorry, fourth - Stojan Zupljanin,
19 the head of CSB Banja Luka, is quoted as saying -- or is described as
20 saying that:
21 "A large number of the fighters of the Serbian Defence Forces,
22 SOS, being reliable and experienced fighters, would be tested for
23 engagement in the special detachment ..."
24 What I'm putting to you is: After those tests, many former SOS
25 members became part of this special detachment of the Banja Luka CSB;
2 A. I don't know anything about that. I see what is written here,
3 but who they are and how they came into being, I really cannot say
4 anything about that.
5 Q. Is it your evidence that you weren't aware what the head of
6 CSB Banja Luka was saying publicly about the unit that you were a member
7 of in 1992?
8 A. No, I was not aware of that.
9 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I see we're at or near the time for
10 the break. I'd tender this document.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I would have one follow-up question before we
12 take that break.
13 Are you familiar with a unit or a group which was called the SOS,
14 or is it for the first time that you hear about it?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did hear about the SOS, but I
16 don't know anything about it. It does ring a bell, but I don't know
17 anything about the composition of that unit, who its members were or any
18 such thing.
19 JUDGE ORIE: From whom did you hear, and when, about the SOS?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a notorious fact in the town
21 of Banja Luka. Everybody knew about the existence of the SOS unit. I
22 don't know who that unit belonged to, whether it belonged to the military
23 or the police, I really don't know who they were.
24 JUDGE ORIE: What, then, was common knowledge about the SOS? I
25 mean, what was it that everyone knew?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I knew about the existence of the
2 SOS unit. Others did. But whatever else I were to tell you, it would
3 just be my guess-work.
4 JUDGE ORIE: But what did you know about -- well, first of all,
5 you said you knew what everyone knew. So there you expressed what
6 everyone apparently knew.
7 But what did you know then about the existence of the SOS?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Everybody knew about the existence
9 of that unit. I knew it as well. I don't know who they belonged to, so
10 I can't go into that. I knew that there was a unit of that kind in
11 Banja Luka, but I don't know anything about its composition or who they
12 belonged to.
13 JUDGE ORIE: But was it just -- first of all, I may have
14 misunderstood or misread one of your previous answers when you said
15 "others did," because my follow-up question was ignoring that part of
16 your answer, and I apologise for that.
17 But now what was it -- you knew that there was a unit of "that
18 kind." What kind? Or just under that name?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't mention what kind of unit
20 it was. I just said that I knew of it. I didn't know its composition or
21 hierarchy or who they belonged to. I just heard of its existence. I
22 knew that they existed.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I referred to the answer which was translated
24 to us as:
25 "I knew that there was a unit of that kind in Banja Luka ..."
1 So if I understand you well, the talk of the town was SOS exists.
2 What was the reputation, what was -- what was said about it, apart from
3 that it exists?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't know much about that unit.
5 It existed, and that's all I knew.
6 JUDGE ORIE: You say, "I didn't know much about that unit." But
7 it's just that you say, Well, SOS exists. That's -- is that a subject of
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's very hard for me to answer
10 that question after such a long time. I can only say that I was aware of
11 its existence, of the existence of some such unit. However, after such a
12 long time, I really can't tell you what the talk of the town was in 1992.
13 It was such a long time ago.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll take the break, but, Mr. Traldi,
16 MR. TRALDI: Might I very briefly follow up?
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, very briefly then. Because we are really at
18 the time of the break.
19 MR. TRALDI:
20 Q. Sir, the Chamber has received evidence that among their other
21 activities, the SOS was responsible for blockading Banja Luka at the
22 beginning of April. Now, that was, in fact, one of the actions that made
23 them notorious, as you described, wasn't it?
24 A. I never said that they were notorious, that the unit was
1 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I'll maintain my request to tender the
2 document and may have further questions about that unit after the break,
3 but I won't press any further now.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, document 06899 receives number
7 JUDGE ORIE: P7160 is admitted.
8 We take break and we'll resume at quarter past 12.00.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE ORIE: But not until after the witness has left the
12 [The witness stands down]
13 --- Recess taken at 11.57 a.m.
14 --- On resuming at 12.17 p.m.
15 JUDGE ORIE: We are waiting for the witness to be escorted in the
17 Meanwhile, the Chamber informs the parties that this Wednesday,
18 at the first break, the Tribunal's photographer will take a panoramic
19 photograph while the court is in session. This photograph will be used
20 on the Tribunal's "Legacy" web site, and the parties had been previously
21 informed about this through an informal communication. The taking of the
22 photograph will not exceed two minutes.
23 [The witness takes the stand]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, you may proceed; however, the Chamber
25 noted that the word "notorious" was not unambiguous in its meaning.
1 Notorious facts do not need to be proven, but the Chamber gained the
2 impression that you used the word in a way different from what the
3 witness did.
4 Please proceed.
5 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Mr. President. Could we have
6 65 ter 06978.
7 Q. Now, this is a list of members of the Banja Luka -- it says SCB
8 in the English, Special Police Detachment. The payroll for August 1992.
9 At number 1 we see Mirko Lukic. He was the commander; right?
10 A. Yes, correct.
11 Q. And then Ljuban Ecim and Zdravko Samardzija, they were also part
12 of the unit's leadership; right?
13 A. Yes, yes. They were the deputies.
14 Q. And you're aware that Mr. Ecim had been involved with the
15 Banja Luka SOS?
16 A. I did not know Mr. Ecim personally, really.
17 MR. TRALDI: Turning to page 5 in both languages --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, the previous answer is not an answer to the
19 question. The fact was whether you knew that he was involved in the
20 Banja Luka SOS. Even if you don't know him personally, you may have
21 knowledge about that. Did you have that kind of knowledge or did you
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't know that, no.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
25 MR. TRALDI:
1 Q. Here at number 102, we see your name, the amount you were paid,
2 and your signature. Is it correct that as of August 1992, you were still
3 being paid by the Banja Luka CSB for service in the special unit?
4 A. Yes, that was my regular salary.
5 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I tender this document.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, document 06978 receives number
9 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
10 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 07005, please.
11 Q. Now, this is a document dated the 14th of August, 1992, sent from
12 CSB Banja Luka to subordinate SJBs. It's actually listed as the chief of
13 all SJBs. The command of the 1st Krajina Corps, the chief of the
14 intelligence security organ thereof, and it refers to an order by the
15 Presidency of the Serbian Republic and then says it's implementing that
16 by disbanding the special police detachment and says in the second
18 "The troops and materiel are to be reattached to the commander of
19 the 1st Krajina Corps of the Serbian Republic as of the above date."
20 Now it was this order on the basis of which you and other members
21 of the special unit were reattached to the VRS; right?
22 A. Yes, that was the case.
23 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I tender this document.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, document 07005 receives number
2 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
3 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 32129. Could we turn to the next
4 page, please.
5 Q. So we see here an order from Stojan Zupljanin dated the 31st of
6 December, 1992, and it appoints Mr. Ecim and Mr. Samardzija, who you
7 confirmed earlier were part of the leadership of the special detachment
8 when you were in it, to positions in the CSB's police brigade. So it's
9 right that some of the members of the special unit, including some of the
10 leaders, remained in the service of the Banja Luka CSB after the order we
11 just saw; right?
12 A. Well, this arises from this document, it seems to be the case.
13 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, I'd tender the document.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, document 32129 receives number
17 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
18 MR. TRALDI:
19 Q. Sir, I want to turn now to your deployment to Kotor Varos as a
20 member of the special unit. About how many members of your unit were
21 deployed there with you?
22 A. We were deployed in two teams. I went with the second team. I
23 believe that some 20 of us were deployed on that occasion, and I don't
24 know how many people were deployed with the first team.
25 Q. Who told you to go to Kotor Varos?
1 A. The command.
2 Q. Mirko Lukic?
3 A. I really can't remember who told me to go.
4 Q. And you went -- both of those teams that you're referring to went
5 to Kotor Varos in June of 1992; right?
6 A. Yes, I suppose so. I suppose it was June.
7 Q. And while you were in Kotor Varos, you were accommodated in a
8 house that was between the Kotor Varos police station and the health
9 centre; right?
10 A. Precisely.
11 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 32135.
12 Your Honours, just to explain, it's a large file, which is why
13 it's taking a moment to load. As soon I provide the explanation, it
14 became unnecessary, I apologise.
15 Q. Sir, this is an aerial image of the part of Kotor Varos we've
16 just discussed taken after the war. Do you see the Kotor Varos SJB on
17 this image?
18 A. It is, indeed, an aerial image, so it's very difficult for me to
19 get my bearings. I know where the SJB in Kotor Varos is, but as I'm
20 looking at this image ... could you perhaps assist me?
21 Q. If you look at the lower part of the building -- or the image,
22 rather, and perhaps start with the building with a number of cars in the
23 parking lot, look at that area, and see if it assists you in identifying
24 the SJB.
25 A. Yes, I can see that.
1 Q. If you just take a moment and then tell us if, in that area,
2 you're able to identify one of those buildings as the police station.
3 A. I know where the police station is. I'm confused by this aerial
4 image, however. I'm finding it very difficult. I can't identify it,
6 Q. Are you able to recognise the health centre, or the area where it
8 A. I can see the football pitch, but for the rest of it, I really
9 can't, I'm sorry. I can't.
10 Q. I won't insist further.
11 MR. TRALDI: And we can take this off the screen, then.
12 Q. You mentioned you were between the health centre and the SJB.
13 About how far were you, the house were accommodated in, from the health
15 A. About 300 metres, approximately, from the gate of the health
16 centre to the house; 300 metres approximately.
17 Q. And about how far from the SJB?
18 A. I believe that the house was halfway between the health centre
19 and the SJB. Halfway. It's very hard for me to give you the exact
20 distance, not in metres.
21 Q. Now, the command of your unit was based in the SJB at the time;
23 A. Yes, yes.
24 Q. And, of course, you got your orders from the command of the unit
25 during your deployment in Kotor Varos; right?
1 A. From the commanders who had been appointed to those positions
3 Q. Which one gave you your orders while you were deployed in
4 Kotor Varos? Which commander?
5 A. I can't remember the name. We were attached to a unit or
6 whoever. We were just attached to that unit, so I can't remember any
7 names. I already said that to your investigators when they interviewed
9 Q. Now, you know part of your unit was also accommodated in a
10 sawmill in Kotor Varos during that time; right?
11 A. Yes, in the direction of the sawmill. I never went there. There
12 was a facility which was previously a shoe factory or some such thing. I
13 never went there. I don't know.
14 Q. The sawmill we're talking about is the Pilana sawmill; right?
15 A. I didn't go there. Because there was a danger of sniper fire,
16 and we were suggested not to pass through that open space.
17 MR. TRALDI: I'm going to ask Ms. Stewart now to show a few clips
18 from a video which have collectively been given 65 ter 32131a. And for
19 two of the four clips, we won't be relying on the audio so those we'll
20 only play once. They're all quite brief.
21 And for the first one, I say for her benefit, if we could play
22 from the beginning to 3.2 seconds or thereabouts.
23 [Video-clip played]
24 MR. TRALDI:
25 Q. And I'd asked for here, sir, to ask: Do you recognise the man in
1 glasses that we see at the forefront of the image?
2 A. No, no. No.
3 Q. And the green camouflage uniforms and red berets that we see on
4 these men, that's the uniform your unit wore during its deployment in
5 Kotor Varos; right?
6 A. No, no. We had all sorts of uniforms. We were pretty much left
7 to our own devices to obtain our uniforms, so there were all sorts of
9 MR. TRALDI: Let's play forward to 6.7 seconds.
10 [Video-clip played]
11 MR. TRALDI:
12 Q. I'm going test your evidence on that in a moment, sir.
13 [Video-clip played]
14 MR. TRALDI:
15 Q. And do you recognise this man?
16 A. It's not very clear. The image is not very clear. Can you
17 rewind just a little and can you replay it from there.
18 [Video-clip played]
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I really can't say, no.
20 MR. TRALDI:
21 Q. Do you recognise the patch he's wearing?
22 A. There is a patch on his left-side pocket, something red and white
23 but ...
24 Q. Now, in your interview that you testified was truthful, you
25 suggested this was a patch your unit had gotten when it went to Vecici,
1 in Kotor Varos, during your deployment there. Does that refresh your
2 recollection as to that patch?
3 A. I said something else. Those were daily markings that the troops
4 wore in order to be recognised on that particular day. They changed
5 daily. One day they were white; the other they were blue. So it was not
6 a permanent patch or a permanent marking.
7 Q. This is one of those patches that your unit received during its
8 deployment in Kotor Varos, isn't it?
9 A. Probably, probably, yes.
10 MR. TRALDI: Then I'm going to ask Ms. Stewart to play the second
11 clip and stop at 10 seconds. This one we will have to play twice for the
12 audio but the audio doesn't relate to the first ten seconds.
13 [Video-clip played]
14 MR. TRALDI: Actually, we can stop there. And for the record,
15 that's at 4.9 seconds.
16 Q. Sir, the blue APC that we see in the centre here, that is an
17 armoured personnel carrier that your unit had and used during its
18 deployment in Kotor Varos; right?
19 A. This is a MUP APC.
20 Q. And you can tell it's a MUP APC because it's been painted blue;
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Do you recognise --
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The question was also: Was this vehicle attached
25 to your unit and did your unit use it?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I used to see it up there.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You saw it. But was it used by your unit? That
4 was the question.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
7 MR. TRALDI:
8 Q. Do you recognise the white building in the distance?
9 A. I really can't remember this building.
10 MR. TRALDI: I'm going to ask Ms. Stewart now to play the rest of
11 the clip and then we'll play it the second time for the audio.
12 [Video-clip played]
13 JUDGE ORIE: It having been played for the second time, I would
14 expect interpretation, but I didn't hear anything. Could we play it
15 again? You have provided the booth with --
16 MR. TRALDI: I haven't, but I'm told we have.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Then could we play it again and then receive
19 [Video-clip played]
20 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Stand right there, hands, three
21 fingers. Three fingers. Three. Three. That's right."
22 MR. TRALDI:
23 Q. Now, first, that's the Kotor Varos SJB that those three men were
24 in at the end of the image, right -- the end of the video?
25 A. I cannot -- I cannot confirm whether that's that.
1 Q. You don't recognise the building where your unit's command was
2 headquartered during your deployment?
3 A. First of all, I never entered that building while I was there;
4 and secondly, from here, nothing can be recognised. Everything is
5 similar, all the buildings are similar. But I did not enter the police
6 building while I was there.
7 Q. We saw that the man who was being put up against the wall was
8 told "three fingers" on each side. That's a Serbian salute, three
9 fingers; right?
10 A. Serbs do have this three-finger salute, but I don't see what this
11 has to do with that?
12 JUDGE ORIE: The only thing you have to do is answer the
13 questions. You don't have to wonder what the one has to do with the
14 other. That's for the parties and for the Chamber to further consider.
15 Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
16 MR. TRALDI: I'm going to ask Ms. Stewart to play the third clip,
17 the first six seconds only. This one we won't be relying on any audio.
18 [Video-clip played]
19 MR. TRALDI:
20 Q. Now, do you recognise this man?
21 A. Yes, I know him.
22 Q. And who's this?
23 A. That is Nenad Stevandic.
24 Q. And we see he's wearing the same as we saw on the gentleman
25 earlier, green camouflage, red beret, and the patch that was among the
1 patches issued to your unit; right?
2 A. Yes. This picture is quite clear so this can be discerned, as
3 opposed to the previous one.
4 MR. TRALDI: Now I'm going to ask Ms. Stewart -- we've stopped at
5 6.6 seconds to be totally precise.
6 I'm going to ask Ms. Stewart to play the rest of the video.
7 Q. And, sir, he is about to walk over to two other men. At the end
8 of the video, I'll ask whether you also recognise them.
9 [Video-clip played]
10 MR. TRALDI:
11 Q. Did you recognise the two men Mr. Stevandic had walked over to?
12 A. I recognised one of them. It's Mr. Ljuban Ecim on the left. I
13 don't know about the other one.
14 Q. In the interview, you suggested the other was Nenad Kajkut.
15 Would it refresh your recollection if I suggested that that's, in fact,
16 who the other man is?
17 A. If you were to replay this film again, maybe I could, because,
18 right now, I really couldn't tell.
19 MR. TRALDI: And we're starting at 20 seconds.
20 [Video-clip played]
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The right-hand side, that should be
22 Nenad Kajkut. I can tell by the moustache, although it's rather
23 difficult to tell here.
24 MR. TRALDI: If we could have the fourth clip now. And this one
25 we'll have to play twice.
1 [Video-clip played]
2 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "You want me to open it for you.
4 "Open this shit.
5 "Let me go to get the keys.
6 "Open it.
7 "I didn't bring the keys.
8 "Open this shit, you fucker. You'll open it now.
9 "Okay, okay, okay.
10 "Crowbar, open it with a crowbar."
11 MR. TRALDI:
12 Q. The two men in uniform were again wearing green camouflage, red
13 berets, and the same patch we had seen in the previous clips; right?
14 A. Yes, the same uniforms.
15 Q. You testified there were 20 men deployed with you. Did you
16 recognise the people in your unit's uniforms in this clip?
17 A. I cannot remember. These are universal uniforms, the ones that
18 we saw a moment ago. I did not have such a uniform.
19 Q. You said these are universal uniforms. You testified a moment
20 ago that the patch was part of daily patches specifically given to
21 members of your unit so they could distinguish each other from people who
22 weren't in the unit. So it wouldn't work to use something universal for
23 that, would it?
24 A. Insignia changed daily, but not uniforms. Insignia, not
1 Q. Did you recognise the two men in that video that we saw shoving
2 and kicking the man in the T-shirt and jeans? Yes or no.
3 A. No, I don't know these men.
4 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I tender that video. I believe all
5 four clips are 65 ter 32131a.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, they would receive number P7164.
8 JUDGE ORIE: P7164 is admitted.
9 MR. TRALDI:
10 Q. Now, at one point during your time in Kotor Varos, you were
11 deployed to the village of Vrbanjci; right?
12 A. No, we were in Kotor Varos.
13 MR. TRALDI: Well, could we have 65 ter 32097.
14 Q. This is your OTP interview.
15 MR. TRALDI: And let's start on page 65. The way the transcript
16 is, it's in both English and B/C/S, so it's one document.
17 Q. So at the bottom here, you're asked, beginning at line 30:
18 "Was -- Vrbanjci is a Muslim village?"
19 And turning to the next page, you say:
20 "I think it is. It's possible."
21 You're asked:
22 "Was there -- what time of day was this that you were there?"
23 And you answer: "It was day-time."
24 And then you're asked some more questions but I'm going to stop
1 It's true that you were deployed to Vrbanjci during your time in
2 Kotor Varos as a member of the special unit; right?
3 A. We were there one day, and I said that in my statement.
4 Otherwise I was deployed in Kotor Varos, and we talked about that a
5 moment ago, about that house where we were. So we were there for one
6 day, and that is contained in the statement.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, may I take you back. You were asked:
8 "Now at one point during your time in Kotor Varos, you were
9 deployed to the village of Vrbanjci; right."
10 You said: "No, we were in Kotor Varos."
11 That answer therefore was not accurate. Because for one day, at
12 one point in time during your stay in Kotor Varos you were in Vrbanjci.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not understand the question.
14 At one point in time, that's what I didn't understand, the context of the
16 JUDGE ORIE: But at one point in time during your time in
17 Kotor Varos, didn't you understand that that was at a moment when you
18 were in Kotor Varos?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't understand that the
20 question referred to a moment. I didn't understand that question.
21 JUDGE ORIE: You didn't understand the question. Then next time,
22 instead of answering it, ask for clarification.
23 Please proceed.
24 MR. TRALDI:
25 Q. Now, you learned after the war about crimes that were committed
1 against the population of Vrbanjci, didn't you?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. What crimes against that village did you learn about
5 A. Specifically through conversations and talks with the other side
6 concerning missing persons and exchanges, we discussed the requests that
7 were put to us, that is to say, through this work that we dealt with
9 Q. Sir, you've answered a different question than the one I asked.
10 I hadn't asked about the mechanics of how you learned about it. I asked:
11 What do you know, as you sit there today, was done to the people who
12 lived in the village of Vrbanjci?
13 A. What happened? I don't know anything, but I know that a large
14 number of missing persons are still being searched for. But what it was
15 that happened over there, I really don't know.
16 Q. People who have been missing since 1992.
17 A. Yes, there are missing persons. I don't know the exact number.
18 Q. Now, you're also aware that during your deployment in
19 Kotor Varos, while you were living between the police station and the
20 health centre, dozens of people were killed, Muslims were killed, at and
21 near the health centre in Kotor Varos; right?
22 A. I don't know about that. And I said that in my statement, that I
23 don't know about that.
24 Q. You've never heard in the course of your work and you never heard
25 at that time in 1992 of a mass murder committed just a couple of hundred
1 metres from where you were living?
2 A. No, I really don't know about that.
3 MR. TRALDI: If I could have just one second, Your Honours. I
5 Could we have P3711.
6 Q. Now, this is an extract of the minutes of the 40th Session of the
7 Crisis Staff held at 0800 hours on 26th of June, 1992, in Kotor Varos.
8 And if we look to the bottom of the page in both languages where there's
9 a reference to Nedjo Djukanovic, right before that we read:
10 "Dr. Gajanin informed the Crisis Staff of the situation as
11 regards casualties and reported on what had been done on the premises of
12 the health centre by members of the special unit, which he had tried to
13 prevent, but was driven away at gunpoint."
14 And then Mr. Djekanovic says he is told someone named Dubocanin,
15 about everything going on in the town and at the health centre, and that
16 information would be provided on the behaviour of the members of the
17 special unit at the meeting with S. Zupljanin, the chief of the CSB,
18 scheduled for the next day.
19 Now, first, very specific question: This meeting, 26 June 1992,
20 this was during the time that you were in Kotor Varos; right?
21 A. Yes, I was in Kotor Varos during that period. But I did not
22 attend this session.
23 Q. And you were there with just a couple of dozen other members of
24 the special unit, the Crisis Staff knew about it, Dubocanin knew about
25 it. Is it really your evidence that you had no idea that members of your
1 relatively small unit had committed mass murder quite close to the home
2 where you were staying?
3 A. First of all, first of all, I came later with 20 men, and up
4 there there were already almost 100 men. I said that I came with a group
5 later, with 20 men.
6 Secondly, I came some seven or ten days after the first group,
7 and I stayed there for up to 15 days, maximum.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could I ask you, was that the first group,
9 the 100 men you are referring to?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Maybe I didn't understand that
11 question. The first group consisting of 100 men went to Kotor Varos, and
12 we went seven or ten days later, this group consisting of 20 persons.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just -- one second. If you give me one
15 Yes, I read one of your previous answers:
16 "I went with the second team. I believe it was some 20 of us
17 were deployed on that occasion, and I don't know how many people were
18 deployed with the first team."
19 So apparently within half an hour, now you suddenly remember that
20 there were 100 approximately. Any explanation for not knowing it earlier
21 and now suddenly telling us that these 100 men were the first group?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said around 100, perhaps more,
23 perhaps less. I did not say precisely how many.
24 JUDGE ORIE: But --
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Maybe it could have been more,
1 maybe it could have been less, but ...
2 JUDGE ORIE: But your previous answer was:
3 "And I don't know how many people were deployed with the first
5 But you knew it because it was around 100. Any explanation as to
6 why you didn't tell us at the time how big -- how large that group was?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because I'm not sure even now how
8 many men there were there. Around 100. Perhaps more, perhaps less.
9 However, it's very hard to be precise. And you're asking me for
11 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not asking for precision. I'm asking for an
12 explanation between you telling us that you didn't know how much the
13 first group was, where for the second group you said "some 20," so for
14 the first group, you could have said -- you could have expressed yourself
15 in similar terms, "around," or "some." And then half an hour later, you
16 know that it was approximately 100.
17 Please proceed.
18 MR. TRALDI:
19 Q. You are aware, aren't you, as you sit there today, that members
20 of your unit were involved in committing crimes against non-Serbs in
21 Kotor Varos during your deployment there?
22 A. I'm not aware of that. And I know that that unit did not commit
23 any crimes.
24 MR. TRALDI: I'm done with this topic.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you clarify the last answer, you know
1 that they did not commit any crimes. What -- how are you so pertinent in
2 telling us that you know apparently for sure that they did not?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The crimes that were committed in
4 Kotor Varos were committed by some other units, the so-called unit Burce
5 or something like that.
6 JUDGE ORIE: And what's the source of knowledge for that?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Source of knowledge are post-war
8 sources of knowledge through the work that I am doing now.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Could you be a bit more precise.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that there was this group
11 called Burce, or something like that.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Again not an answer to my question, how do you
13 know that. But, second, how do you know that they were the ones who
14 slaughtered these persons or killed them?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know because I am working on
16 missing persons and I took part in the exhumations, all the exhumations
17 in Kotor Varos, with the prosecutor's office and all other teams from
18 Zenica, and I learned about all of this, and that is what I'm testifying
19 about here today.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But from an exhumation, you wouldn't know who
21 killed those who are exhumed, would you?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not from the exhumations but from
23 conversations with the investigative organs that were working on this. I
24 knew that because judges, the police, are all in attendance and that is
25 the situation when such questions are being discussed.
1 JUDGE ORIE: If there are any reports which would further support
2 the evidence of the witness in this respect, Mr. Lukic and Mr. Traldi, of
3 course, the Chamber would always like to have an opportunity to -- to
4 find corroboration of what the witness said.
5 MR. TRALDI: We'll certainly check, Mr. President.
6 Q. Before we do, sir, which crimes specifically in Kotor Varos
7 municipality were you told that the Burce unit committed?
8 A. Well, I think it has to do with Vrbanjci and Grabovica.
9 Q. And you're describing what you know to be massacres; yes?
10 A. No. I never mentioned any massacres. I just said that I draw my
11 knowledge from the investigative organs that were carrying out
12 investigations in the post-war period because I was involved, together
13 with these investigative organs.
14 Q. Sir, you learned from them at exhumations. Exhumations are
15 related to people who have been killed, not homes that have been looted,
16 right? These are about people -- these crimes that you referring to,
17 these are about murder; right?
18 A. I have just been speaking about missing persons, not looted
19 homes. I think that I was clear enough. During exhumations, the
20 appropriate institutions are in attendance and they're carrying out
21 investigations and it is only natural about the perpetrators of such
22 crimes. Precisely when talking to investigative organs who were carrying
23 out these investigations and that was the team in Zenica, that is to say,
24 the court, the prosecutor's office, and the police from Zenica, when
25 speaking to them, I learned about these details that I'm testifying about
1 here today.
2 Q. And the Burce unit, did they also tell you who its commander was?
3 A. That I don't know.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I ask a question before this page disappears.
5 Give me a moment.
6 You were -- at page 71, line 21, Mr. Traldi asked you:
7 "Sir, which crimes specifically in Kotor Varos municipality were
8 you told that the Burce unit committed?"
9 You said:
10 "Well, I think it has to do with Vrbanjci and Grabovica."
11 Now, I think you said Vrbanjci and Grabovica are areas of --
12 names of places. The question was what crimes? Which crimes were
13 committed? Do you think you can answer that question?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I've already said it's the
15 locations where they were committed.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Thank you.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Now I have the following question for you.
18 You said you know for sure that your unit did not commit those
19 crimes, that is, killing persons in Vrbanjci, a larger number of persons.
20 Asked you how do you know? You said, I know because the Burce group
21 committed those crimes. And now asked about it, what do you know about
22 crimes committed by the Burce unit, you say, Well, I know of locations
23 but not about crimes, which makes your reliance on the Burce group
24 committing crimes in Vrbanjci not very strong because you say you do not
25 know what crimes they, that is, the Burce group, had committed.
1 Any comment on this analysis of your logic?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do have a comment. Because
3 the unit, the special forces of MUP, they did not go into such actions.
4 Secondly, as far as Vrbanjci is concerned, I said that crimes
5 were committed, that I know that and I draw that knowledge from my
6 post-war work. And I will repeat once again, investigative organs
7 mentioned this Burce unit that committed these crimes in that particular
8 place. What the specific crimes were, I don't know.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But nevertheless you insist that it was the
10 Burce unit who would have committed those killings and at the same time
11 you're telling us that you don't know what crimes they did commit.
12 That -- I have some difficulties in reconciling the two.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is no doubt that a crime was
14 committed in Grabovica. There's no doubt about that.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you there. We started the whole thing
16 with Vrbanjci. You added Grabovica to it. We did not. So let's focus
17 on Vrbanjci and not move away to Grabovica at this moment.
18 Please proceed, continue.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've just been testifying on that
20 topic, the knowledge I acquired in the post-war period from the
21 investigative organs that were carrying out this investigation, and I
22 know that they mentioned this group Burce. That is what I have been
23 talking about. I don't know what happened during the course of the war.
24 I don't have any knowledge about that. What I know is what I have been
25 testifying about here.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
2 MR. TRALDI:
3 Q. Sir, I'm going to try one more time. What they told you about
4 what the Burce group did in Vrbanjci was that that group killed people;
6 A. Not that they killed people. I'm going to repeat from the
7 umpteenth time: I found out from the investigative organs that were
8 carrying out the investigation up there that a crime had been committed
9 there and the group of Burce has been mentioned. I don't know anything
10 more about that group. I don't know who the commander is, where they
11 come from. There was only mention of this group called Burce.
12 Q. So I want to make sure I understand the conversation you had that
13 you're recounting to us now. Somebody told you in Vrbanjci the Burce
14 group committed a crime, and you didn't say, What kind of crime? Or what
15 were the consequences of it? Or in relation to your professional work,
16 have the victims ever been found? You didn't ask any of those questions.
17 The topic was simply dropped and you started talking about something
18 else. Is that your evidence?
19 A. No. I did not depart from the topic. Investigative actions are
20 carried out by others, the police the judiciary, the Prosecution.
21 Q. Sir, I'm going to stop --
22 A. That is their mandate and their job.
23 Q. No one has asked you about whose mandate this is. What you've
24 been asked is: Did you simply drop the topic? You said no. Okay? You
25 were told a crime had been committed in Burce -- or by the Burce unit in
1 Vrbanjci. The conversation didn't end there, as you've just told us.
2 What else did you learn about that crime?
3 A. I did not learn anything else. I told you what I learned and how
4 I learned it, and now you are pushing the topic further, asking me to
5 give you an answer to a question that I simply cannot answer.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Let's move on.
7 MR. TRALDI: If I could have just one question to complete this
8 before the break, Mr. President.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
10 MR. TRALDI:
11 Q. You'd also said, in your view, there was no doubt that a crime
12 had been committed in Grabovica. That was a mass murder, and you know
13 from your professional work that for almost all the victims, their bodies
14 have never been found; right?
15 A. The bodies have never been found. But I didn't say that. I said
16 there is no doubt about the fact that a crime had been committed there.
17 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I will turn to a new topic after the
19 JUDGE ORIE: But then again, the same question. A crime. What
20 crime? Theft?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, a large number of
22 people in Grabovica are still considered missing. Through my -- our
23 work, so far -- please, please.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, no. You said no doubt that a crime has
25 been committed. Which crime you say there's no doubt about that had been
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A crime against the people missing
3 from Grabovica who have not been found to this very day.
4 Very few bones were found in Majdan. I was there together with
5 the investigative teams. And those remains were later identified by DNA
6 analysis, and it was established that the bones belonged to the persons
7 who had gone missing from Kotor Varos municipality, i.e., from Grabovica.
8 JUDGE ORIE: That's still not a crime, is it? If someone went
9 missing, it's not a crime. What crime, therefore, you said there was no
10 doubt that had been committed?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't intend to justify any crime
12 if a -- somebody's death was violent --
13 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not asking you whether you intend to justify
14 anything. I'm putting a simple question to you. And again and again,
15 and it's not the first time, you are going around the question and you do
16 not answer the question.
17 We'll take a break, and we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes.
18 You may follow the usher.
19 Mr. Traldi, any idea about the time you'd still need?
20 [The witness stands down]
21 MR. TRALDI: I'd say I'm slightly ahead of my estimate but not by
22 very much, and I don't expect in practical terms to finish today.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, I must say that I don't have your
24 estimate clearly on my mind at this very moment, but you certainly will
25 assist me.
1 MR. TRALDI: My estimate had been two and a half hours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Two and a half hours. That was -- yes, was
4 We'll take a break, and we'll resume at 20 minutes to 2.00.
5 --- Recess taken at 1.20 p.m.
6 --- On resuming at 1.41 p.m.
7 JUDGE ORIE: While we're waiting for the witness to be escorted
8 in the courtroom, Mr. Lukic and Mr. Mladic, even when the Court has not
9 yet entered the courtroom, you should refrain from addressing the public
10 gallery or to seek communications with them. It has been told several
11 times to you now. You apparently ignore it again.
12 Mr. Mladic, you are just continuing to do it. Would you please
13 turn. Otherwise -- otherwise you'll be removed from the courtroom. Is
14 that clear?
15 [The witness takes the stand]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
17 Mr. Traldi.
18 MR. TRALDI:
19 Q. Sir, I'm going to turn now to your evidence about the exchange
21 MR. TRALDI: Now can we have 65 ter 32128.
22 Q. Now this is a document coming from Colonel Gojko Vujinovic, the
23 1st Krajina Corps assistant commander for civilian affairs. And it's
24 dated the 30th of September, 1994.
25 First we see it's titled: "Exchange of civilian population."
1 Does that refresh your recollection as to whether civilians were
3 A. Yes. Within the context of exchanges, just as I told you a
4 little while ago.
5 Q. Okay. And what we see here in the first paragraph is a reference
6 to the state commission agreeing on an exchange of civilians, Muslims
7 from Sanski Most for Serbs from Bugojno. Three buses arriving from
8 Sanski Most and then a description of the timing of the exchange. And
9 then below that it says:
10 "The unit command carry out the necessary tasks to ensure that
11 this is carried out."
12 So VRS units in the area where exchanges of civilians took place
13 had tasks to carry out to facilitate those exchanges; right?
14 A. Correct. Conditions had to be put in place for the passage of
15 the buses through the separation line. In other words, fire had to be
16 discontinued for the buses to go either way. And that includes the buses
17 coming from Bugojno as well.
18 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 32128.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document receives number P7165.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
22 MR. TRALDI:
23 Q. Now, I want to turn to the exchanges you took direct part in and
24 I want to ask about some of the process of organising one. I'm going to
25 ask specific questions.
1 When you would receive -- your exchange commission would receive
2 a list of soldiers that the ABiH or the HVO was looking for, you would
3 turn that list over to a member of the exchange commission who was part
4 of the 1st Krajina Corps' security organ; right?
5 A. No, I was a member of the commission for exchanges of the
6 1st Krajina Corps. We would forward those lists to the corps command,
7 seeking an answer to the question as to what had happened to the people
8 who were on the list.
9 Q. Well, specifically the way that would work is that the security
10 organ's representative on the exchange commission would forward it up his
11 chain of command; right?
12 A. Yes, to the security organ, the corps command, and, if necessary,
13 to the Main Staff. It all depended on the situation.
14 Q. So who was the representative on the exchange commission from the
15 1st Krajina Corps' security organ? What was his name?
16 A. There were several people as needed. One of them was Colonel
17 Uros Mirosljevic [phoen] and then Vladimir Sevarika [phoen]. There was
18 another gentleman whose name I cannot recall.
19 Q. And the commission also included representatives of other organs
20 of the corps command; right?
21 A. No. The commission consisted of commission members and the
22 representative of the security organs who monitored the work of the
24 Q. Was there ever a representative from the religious, morale, and
25 legal affairs organ, to whom you've testified the commission was
2 A. Yes, we were under the authority of that organ, but nobody from
3 that organ was a member of our commission. We were subordinated to them
4 or, rather, our work was supervised along the line of profession by them.
5 But that was all.
6 Q. And you say in your statement that you'd receive approvals for
7 your work by the VRS Main Staff through the corps command. Who in the
8 Main Staff would issue such approvals?
9 A. It depended on the type of approval that was needed. For
10 example, if fire had to be discontinued during negotiations, then we
11 would receive approval from the corps command. There was no need for the
12 Main Staff to be involved. And if it was about an exchange of prisoners
13 of war, then we would get in touch with the Main Staff. That was the
14 procedure we followed.
15 Q. And you haven't answered my original question. Who on the
16 Main Staff would you get in touch with to receive an approval for such an
18 A. I did answer. We would get in touch with the corps command, and
19 the corps command, in its turn, would address the Main Staff for
20 approval. We got in touch with the corps command, and then the corps
21 command would address the Main Staff.
22 Q. Do you know - yes or no - who in the Main Staff would issue the
23 approval for an exchange?
24 A. The commission who had issued the application through the corps
25 commander. Again, that was not done directly --
1 Q. Sir --
2 A. -- not directly from them to us. I don't know if you understood
4 Q. Sir, I note that you're not answering my question. I'm going to
5 try to put it again very simply.
6 You say the Main Staff issued approvals for your work. A moment
7 ago, you say the Main Staff issued approvals for the exchange of
8 prisoners. The Main Staff was comprised of people. When the Main Staff
9 issued a document, one of these people's names would appear at the
10 bottom. When the Main Staff issued an approval for the exchange of
11 prisoners, which of those people's names would appear at the bottom, if
12 you know?
13 A. Two names appeared. A naval captain whose name I really don't
14 know. And Colonel Tolimir was the other. I believe that there was
15 another person who approved those things, but I can't remember his name.
16 Q. Was the captain Mr. Beara?
17 A. No. I can't remember the name of the person whose rank was naval
18 captain. That was his rank but I can't remember the name.
19 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 01062.
20 Q. Now, as it comes up, though you didn't mention him a moment ago,
21 General Mladic had the authority to issue orders about the functioning of
22 the corps's exchange commission; right?
23 A. I wouldn't know that. I know that our authority reached up to
24 the corps command. I don't want to go into the authorities and
25 competencies of General Mladic.
1 Q. You're a soldier in the army. Your evidence is that you don't
2 know whether the chief of the Main Staff had the authority to issue an
3 order about your work; is that right?
4 A. I said I didn't know. I didn't see any such document.
5 Therefore, I can't talk about that. I don't have any doubts about that.
6 But I don't know. I was a member of the corps commission, and there were
7 six other commissions on top of that. All the commissions operated with
8 the Main Staff through their commands, and they sought approval for their
9 work from the Main Staff. I was not on the level of the Main Staff.
10 Therefore, I can't testify about that.
11 Q. Let's see if we can refresh your recollection. This is a
12 document coming from the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska.
13 It's dated the 5th of January, 1993. It's titled: "Instructions
14 regarding the exchange of prisoners of war."
15 JUDGE ORIE: In the English it's the singular not the plural,
16 Mr. Traldi.
17 MR. TRALDI: I apologise. I misspoken, Mr. President. It is
18 the singular, "instruction."
19 Q. And we see some paragraphs of text. Below that, we see it's
20 directing that a set of instructions be adhered to, including the forming
21 of commissions for the exchange of prisoners of war in the corps
22 commands; and, at point 3, using a computer to process the records of
23 captured, missing and killed soldiers at the corps level.
24 MR. TRALDI: Now, if we could turn to the end of the document in
25 both languages. In the English, we see we've got the very last page that
1 this is sent to the commands of the various corps. And if we turn a page
2 back in the English only, we'll see that this is type signed by
3 General Mladic.
4 Q. Now, does this refresh your recollection as to whether
5 General Mladic had the authority to issue, in this case, what's labelled
6 an instruction on the functioning of the corps-level exchange
8 A. Yes, this is a typed name of General Ratko Mladic. I already
9 stated that we received our instructions from the Main Staff. This is
10 just one of the instructions which was issued in January 1993, whereas I
11 joined the commission in April 1993.
12 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I'd tender 65 ter 01062.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 01062 receives number P7166.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
16 MR. TRALDI: Can we turn briefly back to the first page of the
18 Q. Now, we see -- for the moment, I'm simple directing your
19 attention to the confidential number on it, 31/15-20/93.
20 MR. TRALDI: Now could we have 65 ter 32106.
21 Q. Now, we see here a document coming from the 1st Krajina Corps
22 Command dated the 18th of May, 1993, issued pursuant to order
23 confidential number 31/15-20/93. Now, I have a couple of questions for
24 you about this document.
25 The first question I have is: At the end of this first
1 paragraph, we see that General Talic writes:
2 "We are authorised to exchange prisoners of war and bodily
3 remains and help in organising the exchange of civilians and art and
4 church valuables."
5 So it's clear from this document that the 1st Krajina Corps
6 understood itself to be authorised to assist in the exchange of the
7 civilians; right?
8 A. Yes. But only with assisting and not in implementing.
9 Q. Second, we see a list of nine persons being appointed and we see
10 this is dated the 18th of May, 1993. We don't see your name. Do you
11 recall when you were appointed and whether it was as part of a different
12 decision? Sorry, we have eight names in the original.
13 A. Yes. Yes, in the month of April 1993, I joined the commission,
14 and I spent perhaps three or four months being there, learning about the
15 way of work of the commission and its purview in order to be able to
16 negotiate with the other side.
17 My name is not here because I was still not appointed as a person
18 who could work and negotiate on behalf of the commission.
19 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, it's been pointed out to me there's a
20 difference in the last name in the B/C/S and the English and so I'm done
21 with the document. I'll ask that it be marked for identification at this
22 moment and we'll look into that matter further.
23 JUDGE ORIE: It seems that in English a name is added.
24 MR. TRALDI: It does. This is --
25 JUDGE ORIE: There are nine names in English and there are eight
1 in the B/C/S version.
2 MR. TRALDI: That's correct, Your Honour. And I apologise for
3 not looking into it earlier, but I'd simply ask that the document be
4 marked and we'll look into it now. Or shortly.
5 JUDGE ORIE: The document to be MFI'd unless Judge Fluegge would
6 have an -- no.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 32106 will receive number P7167.
9 JUDGE ORIE: P71 --
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It should be 7167.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's now clearly on the screen. Is marked
12 for identification.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The problem, Mr. Traldi, in my view, is that
14 there's a name under item 9 added. That can't be just be a translation
15 error. Where does it come from if the original doesn't contain this
17 MR. TRALDI: And that what's I'd intended to say we would look
18 into, Your Honour. I admit I had focused on other aspects of the
19 document in my preparation but I'm not tendering it at the moment. And
20 we'll report back to the Chamber when we've got something to report, as
21 it were.
22 JUDGE ORIE: We'll hear from you. Please proceed.
23 MR. TRALDI: Can we have P6914.
24 Q. Now, we saw General Mladic's order or General Mladic's
25 instruction a moment ago referred to maintaining computerised records of
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: What is the number again?
3 MR. TRALDI: 6914.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Will you please say it again.
5 MR. TRALDI: 6914. And if we could have page 2 in the English.
6 Q. Now, this is a document coming from the Republika Srpska Exchange
7 Commission. If we look under the second name, Mihrudin Begovic, we see
8 the description according to information received from the 1st Krajina
9 Corps Exchange Commission from their computer, on 14/05/1993.
10 Now, first, it's correct, isn't it, that the 1st Krajina Corps
11 maintained computerised records of prisoners?
12 A. Within the scope of the technical capabilities that existed at
13 the time.
14 Q. Now, we see after that information there's a person from Civcije.
15 That's in Doboj municipality; right?
16 A. Yes, Civcije is near Doboj.
17 Q. And that this person was transferred to another prison on
18 13th of December, 1992. We see a reference to a list of persons captured
19 from Manjaca held on -- held in KP Dom Butmir.
20 So the 1st Krajina Corps' computerised records reflected that
21 people were transferred, for instance, from Manjaca to KP Dom Butmir
22 through the network of Republika Srpska detention facilities; right?
23 A. Yes. You can see it from this document. However, the date of
24 the document precedes the time when I was appointed as a commission
25 member, so it would be very hard for me to say anything else about this
1 document and what I know about it.
2 Q. I'm going to ask only now about these computerised records. Who
3 entered information in those records?
4 A. A colleague of ours, Mrs. Mirjana Mira Jokanovic.
5 Q. Now did she just type in whatever came to mind or find
6 information herself, or did somebody tell her what information to enter?
7 A. Well, I suppose that somebody must have told her what to type,
8 i.e., provided her with information.
9 Q. So you would provide her with information about prisoners the
10 1st Krajina Corps was holding which she would then enter into these
11 records; is that right?
12 A. The computer database which was created in 1994 was primarily
13 relative to the persons who went missing and who were on the lists of
14 Republika Srpska. Also certain documents were entered if the president
15 of the commission deemed it necessary for them to be entered into the
16 computer database.
17 Q. Well, here it's clear that this information is being reflected as
18 being provided from the computer in May of 1993. In fact, these records
19 existed no later than the 14th of May, 1993, as we see here; right?
20 MR. TRALDI: And if we could zoom in on the middle of the page in
21 the B/C/S to assist the witness.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, these are computer entries.
23 In 1993 we still had problems with technology and it was really an issue
24 as to what could be entered into a computer database, bearing in mind the
25 development of the computer technology and how well versed people were to
1 use it.
2 MR. TRALDI:
3 Q. And, sir, we see this is a person who it says was transferred to
4 another prison as of the 13th of December, 1992. That means, I would put
5 to you, that means transferred from Manjaca to either, as a first step,
6 either Batkovici or Kula, but outside of the 1st Krajina Corps' area of
8 So my question to you is: Did the 1st Krajina Corps already have
9 computerised records of prisoners in 1992, or did it later, when those
10 records were created, add information about people who had been added in
11 1992 in its area of responsibility on the basis of other records? If you
13 A. I cannot speak about 1992 because, really, I wasn't there. As
14 can be seen from my statement, from April 1993 I was on the commission.
15 And you're asking about 1992, and I was not there.
16 JUDGE ORIE: So the answer is you do not know. That's the simple
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I don't know.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Because the last three words of the question were
20 "if you know." You don't know.
21 Please proceed.
22 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 32101.
23 Q. And I'll be continuing to discuss recording information about
24 prisoners although in a slightly different regard.
25 Now, we see -- and here it refers to captured enemy soldiers. We
1 see in this document coming from the Command of the 1st Krajina Corps'
2 Intelligence and Security Department a reference to a letter from the
3 Commission for the Exchange of Prisoners of War. Refers to a number of
5 MR. TRALDI: If we turn to page 2 in the English.
6 Q. And towards the bottom of the B/C/S, below the four names, we
8 "We also need to ensure that the ICRC registers all the enemy
9 prisoners in our prisons, apart from those, of course, who are of special
10 interest to us or have committed war crimes against the civilian
11 population and our prisoners."
12 And we see it's type signed by Colonel Stevan Bogojevic.
13 Now, you were aware that it was the position of the 1st Krajina
14 Corps's security and intelligence organ that the ICRC should be allowed
15 to register prisoners except for some prisoners who are of special
16 interest to the security and intelligence organ or prisoners it believed
17 to have committed crimes?
18 A. I knew of the position that in prisons, all POWs should be
19 registered. This is a document of the security organs that was not
20 available to me, and I was not aware of this other paragraph.
21 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I tender this document as the next
22 public Prosecution exhibit.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 32101 receives number P7168.
25 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
1 Mr. Traldi, I'm looking at the clock. We have 90 seconds left.
2 MR. TRALDI: I was too, Mr. President, and today I think I'll be
3 cautious and suggest that perhaps we break 90 seconds earlier.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krcmar, we adjourn for the day. We'd like to
5 see you back tomorrow morning at 9.30 in the morning, tomorrow morning
6 when we'll conclude your evidence -- we'll conclude hearing your
7 evidence. I again instruct you that you should not speak or communicate
8 in whatever way with whomever it is about your testimony, whether already
9 given or still to be given.
10 If that is clear to you, you may follow the usher.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's clear.
12 [The witness stands down]
13 JUDGE ORIE: We adjourn for the day, and we'll resume tomorrow,
14 Tuesday, the 3rd of March, 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom,
16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.14 p.m.,
17 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 3rd day of March,
18 2015, at 9.30 a.m.