1 Monday, 16 March 2015
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
9 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 No preliminaries were announced. Therefore, is the Defence ready
12 to call its next witness?
13 MR. IVETIC: We are, Your Honours. That would be
14 Mr. Milenko Karisik.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted in the courtroom.
16 [The witness entered court]
17 JUDGE ORIE: I put on the record that Mr. Mladic is back with us
18 in court again.
19 Were you saluting?
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Mladic is saluting.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, you should refrain from such actions.
22 You know what the consequences are, if that is what you want.
23 Good morning, Mr. Karisik. Before you give evidence, the Rules
24 require that you make a solemn declaration. The text is handed out to
25 you. May I invite to you make that solemn declaration.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
2 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
3 WITNESS: MILENKO KARISIK
4 [Witness answered through interpreter]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated, Mr. Karisik.
6 Mr. Karisik, you'll first be examined by Mr. Ivetic. You'll find
7 Mr. Ivetic to your left. Mr. Ivetic is a member of the Defence team of
8 Mr. Mladic.
9 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
10 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour. Perhaps with the assistance
11 of the usher, I can have a clean copy of the witness statement shown to
12 opposing counsel while I start with the witness.
13 Examination by Mr. Ivetic:
14 Q. Good morning, sir. Could I ask you to first please state your
15 full name for purposes of the record.
16 A. I am Milenko Karisik.
17 Q. And did you give a statement to the Defence team of
18 Radovan Karadzic in 2013?
19 A. My answer is yes.
20 MR. IVETIC: And I'd like to call up in e-court the document,
22 Q. Sir, looking at the first page of this document that's on the
23 screen on the left-hand side, do you recognise this statement?
24 A. Yes, I recognise my own statement. But I would like to ask you
25 to enlarge the letters a bit.
1 MR. IVETIC: While we do that, could we also go to the last page
2 of the same in e-court.
3 Q. Sir, looking again at the Serbian original, can you tell us whose
4 signature appears on this page?
5 A. That is my signature. My shorter signature. And it is
7 Q. And so the date that is reflected in the left-hand side of the
8 document, is that in accordance with your recollection of what date you
9 signed the statement in the Karadzic case?
10 A. My answer is yes.
11 Q. Now, sir, do you stand by everything as written in this statement
12 as being accurate?
13 A. My answer is yes.
14 Q. If I were to ask you today questions on the same topics as
15 contained in your statement, would your answers in court today be
16 substantially the same information as is contained in your written
17 statement that we have before us?
18 A. Today my answers would confirm the statements I made on that day.
19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could all unnecessary
20 microphones please be switched off. Thank you.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So my answer is yes.
22 MR. IVETIC:
23 Q. And, sir, in so far as you have taken a solemn declaration this
24 morning, can we then consider the answers as contained in your statement
25 to be truthful in nature?
1 A. Yes, my answers are truthful. The answers contained in this
3 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, we would at this time then tender
4 1D4749a as the next Defence exhibit, and there are seven associated
5 documents that also are being tendered at this time.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Are they all already on your 65 ter list?
7 MR. IVETIC: Yes, they are, Your Honours, and the corresponding
8 Mr. Mladic 65 ter numbers are provided in the chart that was filed with
9 the statement in the 92 ter submission of the Defence, linking them to
10 the Karadzic 65 ter numbers which are present in the statement itself.
11 MS. PACK: Your Honour, we don't oppose admission of the
12 statement, but there are four of the associated exhibits that we do
13 oppose -- object to, we indicated as much in our filing of the 9th of
14 February, it's the numbers 1D05309, 05310, 05311, and 05312, for the
15 broad reasons stated in our filing of 9th February, paragraph 3. And
16 I'll just elaborate the first one, 05309. It's mentioned at paragraph 19
17 of the statement we oppose admission of this document. It's a
18 third-party statement in BiH State Court proceedings.
19 In our submission, admission should be sought under the
20 appropriate Rule of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence. In any event,
21 it's not sufficiently explained or commented upon in the relevant
22 paragraph 19.
23 So far as the next one is concerned, that's 05310, it's cited to
24 at paragraph 17 of the witness statement. It's a lengthy book extract
25 not sufficiently explained or commented upon in paragraph 17 of the
1 witness statement.
2 Next one, 1D05311, it's at paragraph 25 of the statement. It
3 doesn't provide -- that paragraph doesn't provide any comment or
4 contextualisation of what is a compilation of SRNA, that's the Serbian
5 press agency's press releases.
6 And the same applies 1D05312, paragraph 25 again. Again in
7 relation to these, no comment or contextualisation of any of these press
8 releases from the Serbian press agency.
9 So we object to the admissions of those four documents as
10 associated exhibits on those grounds.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, let me first have a look at the transcript. I
12 think initially, I don't know whether it was --- whether you misspoke or
13 whether it's not accurately recorded, but we are talking about 5309,
14 5310, 5311, and 5312.
15 MS. PACK: That's right.
16 JUDGE ORIE: There are no objections against the other ones.
17 We'll delay our decision on the ones you mentioned and see how the
18 examination of the witness develops in that respect.
19 Could you take the other ones one by one, Mr. Ivetic, so that we
20 can decide on admission.
21 MR. IVETIC: Absolutely. The other ones would be in this order:
23 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
24 THE REGISTRAR: The number D932, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence. Next one would be.
1 MR. IVETIC: Next one would be 1D5313.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
3 THE REGISTRAR: D933, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
5 MR. IVETIC: 1D5314.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
7 THE REGISTRAR: D934.
8 JUDGE ORIE: D934 is admitted.
9 MR. IVETIC: And then the statement is 1D4749a.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
11 THE REGISTRAR: D935.
12 JUDGE ORIE: D935 is admitted into evidence.
13 Yes, I am still a bit confused that they were all already on your
14 65 ter list or whether you asked them to be added to the 65 ter list,
15 Mr. Ivetic. I think you said they were already but ...
16 MR. IVETIC: Unfortunately, I have the table from the 92 ter
17 filing but I don't have the filing itself. I assume that they were based
18 upon the fact that they already had Mladic numbers, but looking at them
19 now they're higher than I would have anticipated, so it is possible that
20 they might ones that we sought admission --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Let's be very practical. I heard of no objections
22 against them being added to the 65 ter list to the extent it had not been
23 done yet, and therefore your tendering of the documents is understood as
24 implicitly also asking to have them added to the 65 ter list to the
25 extent they were not yet.
1 MS. PACK: That's right, Your Honours. And I'm just looking back
2 at the filings and there were -- six of these seven exhibits were sought
3 to add as onto the 65 ter list and we --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That was on my mind when I earlier asked
5 Mr. Ivetic whether they were all already on the 65 ter list. But let's
6 not make too much fuss about that at this moment.
7 Please proceed.
8 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour. At this time I have the
9 public summary to be ready.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
11 MR. LUKIC: Milenko Karisik became a member of the special unit
12 of the Bosnia-Herzegovina Ministry of Interior in 1983 and remained as a
13 member of the same until the outbreak of the war. He served as the
14 deputy commander of the special anti-terrorist unit when the war broke
15 out. This unit was the most professionally organised part of the MUP of
16 Bosnia and Herzegovina. Special attention was paid to ensure that the
17 staffing structure of the unit corresponded to that of the population of
18 Bosnia-Herzegovina; that is to say, the percentage of Serbs, Croats, and
20 After the multi-party elections of 1990, the SDA started
21 appointing personnel to key supervisory positions in the Ministry of
22 Interior who used the ministry as a tool to achieve the goals and
23 implement directives of the SDA. Reserve police forces, mostly Muslims,
24 were activated at all levels, including in the special unit. The witness
25 notes that the special anti-terrorist unit started to be tasked to
1 perform tasks that were not within its remit, where the unit was misused
2 with disproportionate strength in unlawful actions in service to
3 intimidate Serbs. These were ordered by the minister, following the
4 orders of the SDA.
5 In the special unit anti-terrorism training stopped and a
6 complete transition was made to military training. This demonstrated a
7 preparation of the unit for new purposes. In the meantime, the
8 recruitment of special reserve police led to the formation of a special
9 reserve unit which occupied some of the buildings of the witness's unit.
10 Only Muslims were recruited into this unit, and for the most part they
11 were from the region of Sandzak, volunteers for the Green Berets, and
12 deserters from the JNA.
13 As a result of the abuses in the use of the special unit, Serbian
14 members, led by the witness, demanded a meeting with the MUP leadership
15 in order to eliminate problems because further work was unbearable and
16 impossible. A meeting was held including Momcilo Mandic, a Serb,
17 Jusuf Pusina, a Muslim, and Bruno Stojic, a Croat, that ended in
18 agreement to put an end to further abuse, but this agreement was not
19 respected by the Muslims.
20 Eventually the MUP was split, and based on an agreement at the
21 top level of the MUP, the Serb special unit was to be assigned to the
22 base in Vrace, whereas the Muslim/Croat part of the unit was to remain in
23 Krtelje. When the Serb unit set out for its assigned base, it was
24 attacked from two directions. It was learned that the leadership of the
25 Muslim MUP ordered this attack.
1 During the unit's stay in Vrace, it was attacked with infantry,
2 anti-armour, and mortar weapons on a daily basis by the Muslim forces.
3 The special unit grew into the special police brigade of the Serb
4 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, which numbered 1500 personnel with the
5 witness as its commander. The witness states that no one ever asked him
6 or demanded that he as the commander commit a war crime.
7 Later, as chief of the public security department of the MUP of
8 Republika Srpska, the witness never saw any mention of execution of
9 prisoners from Srebrenica in any written reports and himself had no
10 information on the same.
11 And this completes the summary.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Any further questions for the witness, Mr. Ivetic?
13 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
15 MR. IVETIC:
16 Q. I'd like to turn to page 2 in both languages of your written
17 statement, and I'd like to ask you about paragraph 8.
18 Now, here you are talking about how the SDA appointed its
19 personnel to key positions in the MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina and that
20 these persons then used that ministry to achieve goals and directives of
21 the SDA. How did the other ethnic groups and ethnic parties react to
22 these actions of the SDA?
23 A. That was the period after the multi-party elections in
24 Bosnia-Herzegovina when the three ruling parties - the SDA, the HDZ, and
25 the SDS - on the basis of the agreement reached -- I mean, I'm a speaking
1 about the Ministry of Interior now, but I imagine this was the situation
2 at all levels of government. This agreement was implemented by a
3 division of portfolios in the government.
4 As for the MUP itself, they, the SDA, got the position of the
5 minister of the interior, one of the most important positions in the
6 then-government of Bosnia-Herzegovina. And not only that. On the basis
7 of that agreement, they got other top positions. The assistant minister
8 for police was also a Muslim. The assistant minister for personnel
9 likewise. And now I cannot recall exactly the entire structure, the
10 entire personnel structure, but the most posts through which force could
11 be implemented in the Ministry of Interior, I think I should put it that
12 way, it was Muslims who held these positions and who were appointed to
13 these positions.
14 Of course, Minister Delimustafic, who even had a criminal record,
15 was appointed by political structures and not a professional in the MUP.
16 Minister Delimustafic did not know much about police work, but he knew,
17 that I think for sure, and it was confirmed later, he knew how to convey
18 the orders issued by the SDA that had appointed him in the first place.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you.
20 Mr. Ivetic, I think you asked the witness how other ethnic groups
21 and the ethnic parties reacted to those actions. Now the witness is
22 describing in detail, apparently, what the actions were or how he
23 considered them, which is not an answer to your question. You let him
24 go. I don't know whether this is what you intended, but it certainly is
25 not an answer to your question.
1 So, therefore, Witness, you'll hear from Mr. Ivetic whether he
2 wants an answer to his question or whether he wants you to go on to
3 answer a question which was not asked, and then perhaps what that
4 question would be.
5 MR. IVETIC:
6 Q. Sir, if we could take it step by step. Could you tell us how did
7 the other ethnic groups and ethnic parties react to these appointments by
8 the SDA of Muslims to these key positions in the MUP?
9 A. In principle, since as far as this slicing of the cake was
10 concerned, they were not pleased with the positions in the division of
11 important positions in the MUP. So political parties were not satisfied
12 but some agreement had been reached. That would be my answer. The one
13 that I know.
14 Q. And now these appointments of Muslims to key positions by the
15 SDA, how did it affect the pre-existing ethnic distribution of officials
16 within the MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina that had existed in the years prior?
17 A. During the previous years, the so-called ethnic criterion was
18 seriously taken into consideration when dividing up posts in the
19 ministry. However, that principle was infringed upon after the
20 multi-party elections, especially from a professional point of view. The
21 ethnic structure was also disrupted. SDA personnel started to dominate.
22 Q. And could you explain what you mean by saying that the "principle
23 was infringed upon after the multi-party elections ... from a
24 professional point of view." What did you mean in regard to that?
25 A. In the Ministry of Interior, it should be professionals that
1 should be working there, people who were trained in law enforcement.
2 When party people came to top positions in the Ministry of the Interior,
3 then party people who were involved in politics cropped up, people who
4 had no experience in law enforcement - I've just referred to
5 Minister Delimustafic - people who had no experience in carrying out our
6 responsible duties, and of course professionals who were there were taken
7 aback, and it made it more difficult to carry out one's duties
8 professionally and properly. It created difficulties.
9 Q. Okay. And now if we look at paragraph 9 on the same page in
10 English and the next page in Serbian, you talk about reserve forces of
11 the MUP that were activated but mostly Muslims. Was there any official
12 justification that you heard while at the special unit explaining why so
13 many reservists, mainly Muslims, were being activated?
14 A. At that time, I was in a managerial position in one segment of
15 the police, i.e., the special police, and it was a surprise for me to
16 find out that in addition to the active-duty police force which had
17 reached an enviable level of professionalism in peacetime, all of a
18 sudden, a reserve force was also needed. It was surprising and somewhat
19 inappropriate to see that true professionals, true special police needed
20 a reinforcement to be efficient. There was no explanation for that. The
21 commander just implemented what the ministry and the police
22 administration ordered him to do, i.e.; to activate the reserve force of
23 the special police.
24 Q. Okay. Now, in relation to paragraph 10 - and that's on page 3 in
25 both versions - here, sir, you are telling us in relation to the special
1 police unit that it was tasked outside its remit and especially in
2 relation to actions to intimidate Serbs. Can you please be more specific
3 as to why these tasks were outside the remit of the unit's activities and
4 why you considered them unlawful.
5 A. The use of a special unit within the system of command of the
6 Ministry of the Interior is within the remit of the minister. This unit
7 is used very seldom, and when it is used, it is used for very special
8 purposes, such as anti-terrorist combat, dealing with hostage situations
9 in various situations, restoring public order, detailing with riots in
10 prisons, and such very complex security tasks. In other words, they do
11 what the regular police couldn't do.
12 Unfortunately, during that period of time, we had an example when
13 the special police was sent on a mission for very simple tasks that could
14 have easily been carried out by other services affiliated with the
15 Ministry of the Interior. Since we participated in several places in
16 such actions against Serb individuals, groups, searching of their houses,
17 for example, in Pale and Pofalici, we obviously could feel a reaction
18 because our actions were fruitless. However, very quickly all of us,
19 including me as an officer, realised that we were just a stick that was
20 used against the people because we used inappropriate force, excessive
21 force, the people revolted against that, obviously. A special example of
22 that was Bilice.
23 Q. Sir, you said, as per your answer: "We obviously could feel a
24 reaction because our actions were fruitless." Could you please explain
25 what you meant when you said that your actions were fruitless?
1 A. When they sent us to Bilice to find some large quantities of
2 weapons apparently held by some people whose names I forget, we engaged a
3 full special unit and mechanised equipment. We turned up there.
4 Obviously there was no result achieved, no weapons were found. However,
5 the people gathered. They protested. We were even blocked. They
6 wouldn't allow us to return. The situation was dramatic. And then those
7 people sent us a message, that it was pointless to use our unit for such
8 tasks in view of the fact that there was a SJB there that could have
9 easily implemented a task. That's why we were forced to seek explanation
10 from the minister of the interior and from the senior staff there.
11 Because they were the ones who very often exercised their right to send
12 our unit on such missions.
13 Q. Was there ever any official justification received at the special
14 unit from the MUP of why these activities were being ordered?
15 A. Sadly, no. In one paragraph, I explain why we had to hold a
16 meeting with the MUP officials in the base in Krtelje. Because there was
17 no explanation whatsoever. Obviously it was one-sided. One side wanted
18 such things to happen on the ground. They wanted a special unit to flex
19 its muscles and to show its full strength.
20 Q. Now, in paragraph 11 of your statement, on the same page in both
21 languages, you might have to scroll down on the Serbian original, you say
22 that the special police unit was made to do military training instead of
23 anti-terrorist training. Was there any justification or reason given for
24 this change in training?
25 A. The Ministry of Interior does not discuss the -- the orders
1 received by superiors. The principle of subordination has to function,
2 which means that Vikic was in charge of training. He was the commander
3 of that unit, and he said that in addition to our normal training we have
4 to do some other kinds of training in order to complete our knowledge.
5 It was a big surprise for us because we had already been in
6 training for some other weapons and some other tools which, in principle,
7 are used in exceptional situation and in war time. That was a
8 conventional military training. We were trained to use Zoljas and Osas
9 and other types of weapons. Something completely different than what we
10 did when we were trained to deal with hostage situations and things like
11 that. What we had formerly done was all of a sudden neglected and we had
12 to do other things.
13 In technical sense, special attention was not paid to tactical
14 training but to tactical special training for military units, setting up
15 ambushes and other such things. Obviously -- obviously we found that
16 surprising and we realised that something dramatic was happening to the
17 course of action and activities of the special police.
18 Q. Now, you've described that the training that your unit underwent.
19 What kind of training was undertaken with respect to the special reserve
20 of unit which had been activated of mostly Muslim reservists?
21 A. That training was somewhat different. However, in essence it
22 involved weapons used in exceptional circumstances and in war time.
23 Those weapons were issued to us, and they were trained on those weapons
24 and some lower levels of tactical training.
25 Q. And now if we could move on. Paragraph 13 of your statement,
1 which is?
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, it's with some concern that I see that
3 you're now at paragraph 13, it's a long statement, because you've used 28
4 minutes out of your 30 minutes, and apart from that I unfortunately had
5 to establish that a lot of the answers are overlapping very much with the
6 written statement.
7 So, therefore, could you please wind up.
8 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, we sent an e-mail adjusting the
9 estimate for this witness to be one hour and 15 minutes. That was sent
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yesterday.
12 MR. IVETIC: Yes. After my proofing with the witness. And we
13 don't intend to go through all the paragraphs of the statement, just to
14 get some additional information as to ones that --
15 JUDGE ORIE: That doesn't change at, the same time, if you ask
16 for more specifics that the witness comes up with almost the same --
17 well, sometimes in slightly different language, but often the specifics
18 are still not there. But we'll first verify when we received this
20 Meanwhile, please could you try to speed up and avoid any
21 overlaps, which I found there to be up to 70, 80 per cent of the answers
22 of the witness.
23 MR. IVETIC: Okay. I will try to speed it up.
24 If we can look at paragraph 13 of the statement, and this is on
25 page 4 in both languages.
1 Q. And here you're talking about the recruitment of the all Muslim
2 special reserve unit. And when you say here: "When they were
3 registered, it was noted that a number of people did not have identity
4 documents," et cetera, who was it that was registering them?
5 A. The headquarters of the Ministry of Interior was in charge of
6 activating the reserve force. When people were employed, it was taken
7 into account that people who were selected were sent to the Krtelje base
8 where they would be trained as a future special police. When they first
9 joined us, obviously we set up our records, and then we saw that some of
10 the people did not have Bosnian documents. Some didn't even have IDs.
11 We looked at the situation and we realised that there were a lot of
12 people among them who were from Sandzak. They were from Muslims but they
13 were from the Republic of Serbia. There were officers from them who were
14 deserters and so on and so forth. And the rest, of course, is in my
16 Q. Yes. So if we could move on so as to save time. If we turn to
17 paragraph 16 in your statement, page 5 in English and the bottom of page
18 5 in the Serbian, and then it will bleed onto the next page in Serbian.
19 And this is the meeting of the officers of the special unit with
20 the Serb, Muslim, and Croat senior staff of the MUP, and you talked about
21 an agreement being reached here and that the Muslim representatives did
22 not adhere to that agreement.
23 First of all, I'd like to ask you if you have any date reference
24 or month reference for when this meeting would have taken place?
25 A. Unfortunately, it was a long time ago. Although I was a
1 participant in all of these events, I can't remember the date. I'm sure
2 that the meeting was held in a month preceding the beginning of war
3 conflicts in Bosnia and Herzegovina. I really can't tell you exactly
4 when. I did participate in the meeting. I can talk about that meeting.
5 I can testify about it and add on what is already in my statement.
6 Q. Without repeating what's already in your statement, was there
7 anything else of significance that you recall being said at this meeting,
8 especially from the Muslim participants of the same?
9 A. Of course, I remember. I will never forget when the officer of
10 our special unit, Kemal Ademovic, took the floor. The rest of us
11 officers said little. A lot more was said by the officers from the
12 Ministry of the Interior who appeared to deal with the problem of the
13 misuse of the special unit. I already told you what the problems were.
14 They tried to set up the future work of the unit and its use in consensus
15 with all the three representatives - the Serb, the Muslim, and the
16 Croat - and this was advocated by the Serb representative because that
17 solution would prolong the work of the unit on the condition that it was
18 not misused.
19 Kemal Ademovic was very negative and he spoke about the members
20 of the JNA, which was the regular army in Bosnia-Herzegovina at the time,
21 and he said that his children would never serve in that army. So if my
22 colleague from my unit said that at an official unit, if could no longer
23 contain the hatred against the Serbs who were a majority in the JNA, they
24 even referred to the JNA as the Serb Chetnik Armada, it became clear to
25 me that our further work together was impossible because there was a
1 complete mistrust among the members of the units.
2 MR. IVETIC: If we could turn to paragraph 19 and that will be on
3 page 6 in the English, and I believe it's either at the bottom of the
4 page or the next page in the Serbian, if we could scroll down. If we can
5 scroll down in the Serbian. Okay. And if we could go to the next page,
6 it's actually the next part of paragraph 19 I would like to reference.
7 Q. Now, sir, at the end of paragraph 19, you say:
8 "Based on the agreement reached at the top of the MUP, the base
9 in Vrace, in the MUP school, went to the Serbian part, and
10 Muslim/Croat [sic] part of the specials remained there Krtelje."
11 And then have you a reference to a document, which in our
12 proceedings 1D5309, which is the transcript of the testimony of
13 Alija Delimustafic in a case before the State Court of BiH. What is the
14 reason that you cite to this testimony of this individual in relation to
15 what is contained in this paragraph?
16 JUDGE ORIE: Could we, at the same time, have a look at the
18 MR. IVETIC: That's fine. That would be then 1D5309.
19 Q. And could you go ahead and answer, sir.
20 A. At the collegium of the ministers -- Minister of the Interior
21 Alija Delimustafic, it was decided that the special unit of the
22 then-Ministry of the Interior would be split because it had become
23 impossible for them to work together. That situation would have
24 certainly become a conflict some day and the decision was made that
25 the -- old base in Vrace would be given to the Serbian part of the
1 police, it would be pavilion F, more specifically; and that the other
2 part of the special police would remain either in Krtelje or wherever
3 they wanted. That decision was made at the collegium of the Ministry of
4 the Interior. That was confirmed in a case which was heard before the
5 Special Court in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and we were aware of that decision.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, could you assist us a bit in guiding us
7 to the document where the relevant portion on the 16 pages is to be
8 found? Or is it all over?
9 MR. IVETIC: I believe it's in two sections. The witness showed
10 me the B/C/S version when I was proofing him last night, and I'm now
11 responding to the Prosecution's objections raised. I think for the sake
12 of time I can at the break locate those and give them to you.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then we'll hear from you.
14 MR. IVETIC: Yes. And I think you have the gist of what the
15 witness's testimony is, which is perhaps even more relevant at the
16 present, but I will find those selections for you and advise you after
17 the break.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
19 MR. IVETIC:
20 Q. Now if we could turn back to D935, your statement, and if we can
21 turn to page 7 in the English, and the bottom of 7 and it will bleed onto
22 page 8 in the Serbian, and this is the -- describing the attack upon your
23 unit when you tried to situate yourselves in the school compound as at
24 Vrace. And towards the end of this paragraph -- I think it will be the
25 next page in the B/C/S. There we go. We're fine in English. You say:
1 "We released those attending the course, the leadership and the
2 teaching staff, although we handed some of them over to the investigating
4 First of all, I want to ask you how was the selection made of
5 whom to hand over to the authorities?
6 THE INTERPRETER: Kindly switch off all unnecessary microphones.
7 Thank you.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We managed to bring that to an end.
9 At the end, we appointed very responsible people headed by Director
10 Balic, and the commander who was in charge of a defence, and four or five
11 people, two trainees, and some officers whose names I can't remember. We
12 handed the -- the -- them over to the Pale station to establish how
13 crimes were committed against our members. That was the criterion. The
14 most responsible people among those who had waited for us there, who had
15 all sorts of weapons, who had a plan in place, and who had prevented us
16 from entering our base in Vrace according to the decision of
17 Minister Delimustafic.
18 MR. IVETIC:
19 Q. Now just to finish up with this incident, on paragraph 22 on page
20 8 in the English and between pages 8 and 9 in the Serbian, in these -- in
21 this paragraph, you go into quite a bit of details --
22 MR. IVETIC: We lost the Serbian.
23 Q. In this paragraph you go into quite a bit of details about the,
24 quote/unquote, truth that you subsequently learned about these attacks.
25 Can you tell us the source or sources from whom you learned of all the
1 details that are contained in this paragraph about this attack?
2 A. The source of that information are statements taken by the legal
3 bodies in the SJB in Pale. Those statements confirmed that there was a
4 detailed plan to defend the centre. That was the name of that plan,
5 apparently. That the person in charge was the director, Balic, who was a
6 member of Minister Delimustafic's collegium, and that the forces within
7 the centre were commanded by Dzevad Termiz. He was an officer who had
8 been trained in the JNA, who was appointed by the MUP. He was well
9 trained and very capable JNA officer. He had graduated from the military
10 academy. When we entered the premises, as you can see in the statement,
11 we personally saw the weapons that they had. They had facilities which
12 were fortified for future combat and --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, the same. The witness gives very
14 general answers to statements taken in Pale, not by whom, when, who gave
15 those statements, and then within five seconds, moves to the substance
16 rather than to your question.
17 Please proceed.
18 MR. IVETIC:
19 Q. When you say "those statements taken by the legal bodies at the
20 SJB Pale," first of all, from whom were those statements taken?
21 A. Dzevad Termiz and others were those who gave the statements. I
22 was interested in the statement who was in command -- the person who was
23 in command of the forces that were ordered to massacre us. In that
24 statement, Dzevad Termiz gave a full account of the plan, activities,
25 tools, weapons, and the tasks they had been given to prevent the entrance
1 of the Serbian special police.
2 Q. And who were the legal bodies at the SJB Pale to whom these --
3 who took these statements?
4 A. I was not present. That was done by professional members of the
5 crime prevention police, most probably. Active-duty officers as part of
6 their regular activities. They did that as well.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, page 23, line 1, the answer starts with
8 "and others." Was a name mentioned? I missed it.
9 MR. IVETIC: There was. He mentioned the name Dzevad Termiz
10 which is then at line 24 as well of page 22.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is that statement recorded somewhere or what
12 were the circumstances --
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sorry, Termiz.
14 JUDGE ORIE: I see the name Termiz in the statement of the
16 When was that statement taken? Witness, could you tell us?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot say the date exactly, but
18 it was four or five days after these people were taken to Pale for an
20 JUDGE ORIE: And who --
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know the exact date. So it
22 could have been the 9th or something like. I know that afterwards they
23 were released, six days later. But, no, I was not in Pale, but did I get
24 information from the service.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Five days after what? Six days -- what year, what
1 month approximately? I've got no idea.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The month of April 1992. What
3 happened in Vrace happened on the 5th of April. After the armed incident
4 was over, they were arrested and handed over to Pale, and they spent a
5 total of five or six days there and then they were exchanged. They were
6 alive and well. No problems whatsoever. And that is when these
7 statements came into being. I cannot tell you the exact day or hour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Have you seen the statements?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Dzevad Termiz's statement was
10 made accessible to me.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Is it available to -- because we are now relying on
12 this source of information which ...
13 MR. IVETIC: There is a copy in EDS. It is not in e-court.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Well, of course, for the Chamber always to be able
15 to assess the reliability of the evidence, we're always very happy to
16 receive documentary evidence which supports or at least is directly
17 related to the statement of a witness or the testimony of a witness.
18 Please proceed.
19 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I think we are at the time for the
20 first break.
21 JUDGE ORIE: We are at the time for the first break.
22 Before we take that break, Witness, you've emphasised several
23 times that -- I think it was Mr. Delimustafic who had a criminal record.
24 Could you tell us what was on it? Was it -- what had been -- he had been
25 convicted of?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot exactly confirm, but there
2 is a record of Mr. Delimustafic, and then that can be looked into. I
3 believe that it is property-related crime, but I cannot confirm with
4 certainty. But what is for sure is that the judiciary organs dealt with
6 JUDGE ORIE: Has he been convicted?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know about these details.
8 At any rate, we found out that our new minister had that kind of ...
9 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, please answer my questions.
10 So you don't know whether he was convicted, I do understand.
11 Whatever you found out, apart from that, is not what I asked for. But if
12 you say someone has a criminal record, that is commonly understood as
13 someone being convicted by a court. So to say that that's a detail is
14 not exactly my understanding of what it means if you say someone has a
15 criminal record. But I leave it to that for the time being.
16 We take break, and we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes. You
17 may follow the usher.
18 THE WITNESS: Okay.
19 [The witness stands down]
20 JUDGE ORIE: We take a break, and resume at five minutes to
22 --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.
23 --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.
24 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, while we wait for the witness I can
25 assist Your Honours with the citations that you were looking for earlier.
1 In relation to 1D5309, the testimony of Alija Delimustafic, the
2 second half of page 5 through the top of page 6, and then --
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could we have that on the screen?
4 MR. IVETIC: Sure. 1D5309.
5 [The witness takes the stand]
6 MR. IVETIC: Page 5 in e-court, the bottom half.
7 Beginning with Counsel Serdarevic and then it says
8 Witness Delimustafic from there on to the first few lines on page 6.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 MR. IVETIC: And then also at page 7 until the middle of page 8
11 there's questioning by the accused Mandic on the same topic. And then
12 the top of page 9 just a few lines talking about the work of the
13 collegium by Mr. Delimustafic. Those would be, I think, the only
14 selections that are directly relevant from the 16 pages --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And the statement of the witness in this
16 respect is still comprehensible without having this underlying material,
17 isn't it? Because --
18 MR. IVETIC: [Overlapping speakers].
19 JUDGE ORIE: -- it's -- presuming that it's an associated
20 exhibits and the witness just said what the arrangement was for the --
21 where the police stations would be.
22 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: And that -- whether others say that as well doesn't
24 make it better comprehensible.
25 MR. IVETIC: Agreed, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
2 Please proceed.
3 MR. IVETIC: Well, the other issue I had was the -- you had asked
4 about the statement of Mr. Termiz.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. With some hesitation, I must say. I asked for
6 it because it could support or specify what the witness said. There's
7 still some doubt as to the relevance of the whole of the thing, so to
8 seek further information in support of the witness's statement where the
9 relevance is not entirely clear, of course I do that with some
10 hesitation, but, yes.
11 MR. IVETIC: There are two - one handwritten, one typed - in
12 e-court in the B/C/S language. The ERN of the handwritten is 0217-2714,
13 and the ERN of the typewritten is 0217-2724. I'm not aware of an English
14 translation of the same. Perhaps my colleagues on the other side might
15 have more information since we got the document from them.
16 JUDGE ORIE: I leave in the hands of the parties whether they
17 think that it would be useful to pay further attention to those, either
18 for you in support or for the Prosecution challenging.
19 Let move on. Please proceed.
20 MR. IVETIC:
21 Q. If we could turn to page -- excuse me, if we could go back to
22 D935, your statement, and page 9 in both language versions, and I would
23 like to focus on paragraph 25 of the same. You talk about how -- while
24 at Vrace you were subjected to daily attacks even with 60-, 82-, and
25 122-millimetre mortars from the Muslim side. Did the special police
1 units incur any casualties from these daily attacks by the Muslim side.
2 A. Yes, there were wounded persons. Unfortunately, there were
3 fatalities as well. Not directly amongst the special police but one of
4 the policeman.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: I get no interpretation.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The microphone was on.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Muslim sniper hit us from Grbavica
8 and this man was killed. There were quite a few members of the special
9 police that were killed. I think that -- well, around us there was the
10 Territorial Defence. We cannot confirm that. We cannot confirm the
11 exact losses and the exact number of wounded persons, but among my own
12 personnel that I commanded then, there weren't any casualties within that
13 unit of ours. Day and night we were attacked by artillery, and even more
14 often there were infantry attempts to take Vrace and the area that had
15 already been under our control.
16 MR. IVETIC:
17 Q. Now, I'd like to move to page 10 in the English and page 11 in
18 the Serbian, and paragraph 31 of your statement.
19 Here, you are talking about the Zute Ose or Yellow Wasp
20 paramilitary that you say refused to be subordinated to the command of
21 the regular armed forces and wilfully conducted criminal conduct in
22 Zvornik and harassed the local population. What was the ethnicity of
23 those that were harassed by this paramilitary group?
24 A. The paramilitary group the Yellow Wasps in Zvornik practically
25 took over completely. They had their own check-points. They had their
1 own parapolice. They had their own individuals in groups that were
2 looting and mistreating Serbs and Muslims. There were some of them there
3 too, though in smaller numbers. The Ministry of the Interior did not
4 believe it was in their interest for our young government to govern in
5 that way and such activities were disallowed.
6 After the minister's order, activity followed from the Ministry
7 of Interior of Republika Srpska aimed at arresting and bringing to
8 justice the paramilitaries involved.
9 Q. Did any other organs assist --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Could we --
11 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Could I just ask for -- first of all, Mr. Ivetic,
13 again the witness moves away from what you asked him. But I have one --
14 you said there were mistreating Serbs and Muslims. "There were some of
15 them there too, though in smaller numbers." Who were there in smaller
17 Are you referring to Muslims, are you referring to Serbs? Are
18 you referring to member of the Yellow Wasps? What did you refer to when
19 you said: "There were some of them there too, though in smaller
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The paramilitary group Yellow Wasps
22 did not have any Muslims in their ranks. When I said "smaller number," I
23 meant the Muslim population, but it was Serb civilians, the Serb
24 population, that was tortured by this paramilitary group that did not
25 have any Muslims within their ranks.
1 JUDGE ORIE: And were Muslims tortured by them as well?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] While preparing this action that I
3 directly carried out with the special police and in co-operation with the
4 military police, I think it was the 65th Protection Regiment. It's not
5 that I think. They --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, why not answer my question rather than to
7 tell us what --
8 THE WITNESS: Okay.
9 [Interpretation] I don't know about war crimes. It was their
10 property-related crimes that were made known to me. They were looting.
11 They were seizing whatever they could lay their hands on --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, again I was not asking about the character
13 of the crimes committed. Where you emphasised that Serbs were victims, I
14 asked you whether Muslims were tortured, were victims as well.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am talking about victims among
16 all the inhabitants of Zvornik. I don't know the exact number and at
17 this moment I cannot confirm that. I didn't know then exactly what the
18 number was, but I know that they were looting, that they were stealing
19 from people, that they were applying force against the population of
20 Zvornik at their homes, at check-points, et cetera. Therefore, one could
21 not live freely in the town of Zvornik.
22 JUDGE ORIE: But you have knowledge about the Serbs being
23 tortured by the Yellow Wasps. Now, do you know that it was exclusively
24 Serbs or was everyone tortured?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what you mean by the
1 term "mucanje." Obviously we mean a different thing. I need to know
2 what you mean by that word in order to be able to answer.
3 JUDGE ORIE: You are using an expression in a language I do not
4 know. You said that Serbs were tortured by the Yellow Wasps.
5 My question simply was: Was it just Serbs or were Muslims also
6 tortured by the Yellow Wasps, and I invite you to answer that question.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not mention the term
8 "muciti." Perhaps we have an interpretation problem. I mentioned the
9 word "maltretiranje."
10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The word used was
12 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then looting and mistreating, so I leave
13 apart what exactly the crimes were or what it was exactly done by the
14 Yellow Wasps. Were non-Serbs victims of that behaviour as well,
15 including Muslims?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think there were few Muslims in
17 Zvornik then. However, if they were in Zvornik, then they were also a
18 target of the Yellow Wasps. Everybody who was there had a problem with
19 the Yellow Wasps. Everybody was a target. I don't know the exact
20 numbers involved, but all the inhabitants of Zvornik had a problem with
21 the Yellow Wasps.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. And when you're talking about smaller
23 numbers, you are referring to a period where not the whole of the former
24 Muslim population was still present in Zvornik or ...
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm talking about the period when I
1 had this operation of arresting a paramilitary formation. At that time I
2 did not know exactly what the ethnic composition was and I wasn't
3 particularly interested in that. I think that the majority were ethnic
5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
6 MR. IVETIC:
7 Q. You mentioned that the special police in co-operation with the
8 military police, and specifically the 65th Protection Regiment,
9 participated in the action to arrest the members of this paramilitary.
10 How large was the paramilitary group which was being disarmed and
12 A. According to our information, and later on that was confirmed
13 during the arrests, the force involved was about that of a battalion or
14 in numbers about 180, 170 men, something like that.
15 Q. Okay. And ... why had not the local police taken care of this?
16 A. The local police did not have the capacity. That is to say, they
17 were not trained sufficiently, they did not have sufficient personnel
18 levels to oppose a paramilitary formation that was armed with weapons
19 that were supposed to be used in war operations, in combat. They didn't
20 have the strength to do that, the local police.
21 Q. If we could now turn to page 13 in both languages of your
22 statement and paragraph 38 of the same, and this is talking about
23 16 July 1995 when you arrived at Zvornik. And this paragraph of your
24 statement says that you were briefed about the situation and problems
25 concerning Zvornik.
1 Can you be specific as to what exactly you were briefed on as to
2 the situation and problems concerning Zvornik?
3 A. From Chief Vasic at the centre of security services, I was
4 informed about the problems that the units were confronted with, the PJP
5 units of the Ministry of Interior that were involved in the area of
6 Zvornik. I am primarily referring to companies of PJPs, special police
7 units from Doboj. And the information I received was that some people
8 were taken prisoner, that a large column of Muslim soldiers who had not
9 laid down weapons and surrendered in Srebrenica tried a breakthrough to
10 Tuzla. I was told then that there were about 5.000 of them, that that
11 was the estimate of these forces, and that they constitute a major danger
12 for the army ant units of the Ministry of Interior that were
13 resubordinated to the Army of Republika Srpska, that they were moving
14 towards Tuzla, and that they took some of our policemen prisoners there.
15 They didn't inform me of anything more or anything less.
16 Those were the problems that I was informed about. Had I been
17 informed about anything else, I probably would have written about that in
18 my statement.
19 Q. Now prior to visiting Zvornik on this occasion you were at MUP
20 staff in Pale. Can you tell us what your main activities or focus were
21 at the staff in Pale during this time-period; that is, July 1995?
22 A. Yes, that is correct. My personal activity then had to do with a
23 newly established staff of the police forces in Pale that was
24 established, if I can remember exactly, sometime in mid-July or in the
25 second half of July, and its direct task was - and that is why it was
1 established on the basis of an order of the minister of the interior -
2 because of the participation of police units at the Sarajevo front.
3 At that time, at the Sarajevo front, there was a Muslim offensive
4 that was raging against the Serb positions around Sarajevo and there was
5 this major danger of the defences breaking down, and that would have had
6 unforeseeable consequences for the civilian population primarily, the
7 Serb population in Sarajevo, eastern Sarajevo. And the staff was
8 established for the Sarajevo-Romanija area, to use military jargon. And
9 I was a member of the staff most of the time in that area, and the
10 headquarters of the staff was in Pale.
11 Q. You are recorded as saying that the staff was established
12 sometime in mid-July or the second half of July. Is that accurate?
13 A. No, you misspoke. The staff was established in mid-June or the
14 second half of June. So it's not the month of July. It is the month of
15 June 1995. June.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, I'm trying to seek some clarifications
17 since the matter is addressed now.
18 You say on the day when you arrived in Zvornik, you first went to
19 the CJB where you were briefed about the situation, and you said that was
20 mid-July 1995, if I understood you well. Now, we are usually making
21 clear distinction between all the specific days in mid-July. Do you
22 remember when in mid-July you arrived in Zvornik?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I arrived Zvornik on the 16th of
24 July, 1995. I arrived at the security services centre in Zvornik. I
25 communicated with the chief of that centre because I was the head of a
1 sector who had arrived on the verbal order of the minister of the
2 interior who has -- who had asked me to go on a mission.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I asked for a date, just for a date.
4 Was that the same day when, as you said, you had received a
5 verbal order from Mr. Kovac?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
8 Please proceed.
9 MR. IVETIC:
10 Q. Now, in answering one of my prior questions, you talked about the
11 offensive against Serb positions around Sarajevo, and you said that there
12 was a major danger of the defences breaking down and that would have been
13 unforeseeable consequences for the civilian populations.
14 What kinds of consequences were you dealing with at the time that
15 you were at the staff in Pale that would result from the Muslim
17 A. I spent most of my time over there in touring Sarajevo
18 municipalities. That's where the brigades of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps
19 were deployed and the units of the Ministry of the Interior were
20 resubordinated to them. They fought to preserve defence positions there.
21 I monitored the situation in some of those municipalities. In some of
22 the municipalities, the situation was very complex. It was difficult to
23 hold on. In some, the situation was better. However, I also inspected
24 some civilian structures because in the zone of the
25 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, there was a state of war declared, so I
1 inspected the staffs, the civilian staffs, and I was informed by the
2 presidents of the Crisis Staffs of those municipalities about the
3 civilian situation. Because if the defence lines were too full, I would
4 have had to activate Plan B which was the evacuation of the population.
5 That would have made the situation very complicated. It would have
6 compounded the situation even further, which is why we had to monitor
7 developments constantly, 24/7. If I may continue, I would like to add
8 another sentence.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Ask Mr. Ivetic whether you moved away from his
10 question or whether he thinks it still is within.
11 MR. IVETIC:
12 Q. I would like to ask a question and see if you can answer that in
13 one sentence: How many civilians are we talking about in terms of the
14 population that, under Plan B, would have to be evacuated if the Muslim
15 offensive broke through the lines?
16 A. Well, if we're talking about the Serbian population in the then
17 Serbian Sarajevo, we're talking about 150.000 Sarajevo civilians, Serbs,
18 who were residing in the territory of all Sarajevo municipalities.
19 If the line had fallen down and the action by the Muslim forces
20 was launched from within the city -- the 1st Corps of the BiH Army was
21 active all the time day and night, there were infantry attacks, sniper
22 attacks, they opened fire on every position, every different position of
23 the Army of Republika Srpska. However -- let me finish. There was also
24 another ring which was in the direction of Central Bosnia --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I stop you there. You asked again and
1 again to finish. You can finish an answer to the question. Mr. Ivetic
2 told you that if you could answer in one line, he would appreciate that.
3 You gave the number. That's it. Therefore, as long as you stay within
4 the context of the question, you can continue. If you move away from
5 that, we'll stop you.
6 Mr. Ivetic, just for you to know that you've three minutes left.
7 MR. IVETIC: Okay. Thank you.
8 Q. And I think my last question will be just to have you briefly
9 again, sir, please explain what you mean when you say there was another
10 ring. And that will be my last question.
11 MR. IVETIC: And I thank you, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: It looks as if Mr. Mladic wants to consult with
13 counsel. He has an opportunity to do so but at inaudible volume.
14 [Defence counsel confer]
15 JUDGE ORIE: That's not inaudible. Could you please ...
16 Mr. Mladic, no speaking aloud. I again insist on that.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 MR. IVETIC:
19 Q. If I can then instead ask: Was there any international
20 agreements in place on the territory of Sarajevo for either cease-fire or
21 demilitarisation of that area at the time of this Muslim offensive that
22 you've identified?
23 A. I can't remember any of the agreements, but I know that the
24 Muslim offensive lasted for 22 days both from the inner ring as well as
25 the outer ring, but I can't remember exactly what kind of agreements were
1 in place at the time.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you're doing exactly the same again. You
3 start saying "I can't remember," and then you draw our attention to
4 matters which you consider relevant. But it's Mr. Ivetic who puts the
5 questions, so would you please refrain from doing that again and again
6 and again.
7 Mr. Ivetic, you said this was your last question. The witness
8 doesn't remember. Is that?
9 MR. IVETIC: Then that's my last question. I think he has now
10 completed what he was talking about about the rings, so I think that all
11 that I wanted on the record is there.
12 Q. On behalf of my client and the rest of the team, I thank you for
13 answering my questions today, sir. I have no more questions.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.
15 Ms. Pack, are you ready to examine the witness?
16 MS. PACK: Yes, I am, Your Honour. Thank you.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Karisik, you'll now be examined by Ms. Pack.
18 You'll find her to your right. Ms. Pack is counsel for the Prosecution.
19 Please proceed.
20 And I again, Mr. Karisik, I again remind you that you should
21 focus your answer on the questions put to you, and if you go beyond that,
22 we'll stop you. And we're not inclined to do that 10 or 20 times, so
23 please keep that in the back of your mind.
24 Please proceed.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll do my best.
1 Cross-examination by Ms. Pack:
2 Q. Mr. Karisik, just to go back through your various positions you
3 held. From April 1992, commander of the 1st Special Police Unit of the
4 RS MUP, known as the police detachment, then later in 1992 you became
5 commander of the special police brigade, which is what the special unit
6 became; yes?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. By July 1995 you were head of the public security department of
10 A. First the chief of the police administration for a while, and
11 then I was appointed the head of the public security department in
12 November 1995.
13 Q. Under Tomislav Kovac in 1995?
14 A. Yes. He had a higher position in the Ministry of the Interior.
15 He was above me.
16 Q. Your counterpart then in July 1995, Dragan Kijac, head of the
17 State Security Department; right?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. You ended up after the war as deputy minister?
20 A. Yes, that's correct.
21 Q. When was that were you appointed?
22 A. I believe you'll find it in my statement. I can't remember
24 Q. You talk in your statement, paragraph 6, you don't need to look
25 at it, you talk about the outstanding professionals in the special unit
1 before the war. You, yourself, you regard yourself as an outstanding
2 professional in the MUP?
3 A. I would kindly ask you whenever you mention a paragraph, whenever
4 you want to discuss a paragraph and display it, can it be enlarged in the
5 B/C/S version, for my benefit.
6 Q. I don't want to discuss it. I'm asking, do you regard yourself
7 as an outstanding professional in the MUP?
8 A. Yes, an outstanding professional in the special police unit.
9 Q. And you were --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pack.
11 Witness, it's my recollection that you were provided with a hard
12 copy of your own statement, so if any reference is made to any paragraph,
13 you received that. So you always can have a look at it if it's -- if
14 it's not well visible on the screen for you.
15 Please proceed.
16 MS. PACK:
17 Q. You were highly trained and you were promoted to general by the
19 A. Yes. By a decree of the president on the proposal of the
20 Ministry of Interior in compliance with the Law on the Internal Affairs,
21 all officers were promoted within the MUP. A certain number of us were
22 promoted and became generals.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, no one asked you about others. Now you
24 really have to stick to the question because finally the Chamber may come
25 to a point where we just do not accept you moving away and expanding on
1 questions. That should be clear to you. The simple answer was yes, and
2 if you added "by a decree of the president," that is already beyond what
3 was asked, on the proposal of whom was also not what was asked. Perhaps
4 I would not have stopped you there. But if you then say what happened to
5 others, then you really move far away from the question.
6 Please stick to the question. And as I said before, we're not
7 going to remind you 10 or 20 times and waste our time on listening to
8 what was not asked.
9 Please proceed.
10 MS. PACK: Thank you, Mr. President.
11 Q. I'd like to clarify paragraph 19 of your witness statement which
12 is in front of you, so you can have a look at it. It's about division of
13 the MUP.
14 MS. PACK: And for Your Honours, it's 1D04749a.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is now D935.
16 MS. PACK: Thank you. And if we can just to e-court, for the
17 English it's page 6 and the B/C/S it's page 6 to 7.
18 Q. But you have the B/C/S in front of you.
19 Just looking at this paragraph 19, you tell us about halfway
21 "That is why we were relieved when a dispatch arrived about the
22 splitting of the MUP, which was signed by Mr. Momcilo Mandic in his
23 capacity as authorised official. This was agreed and co-ordinated at the
24 level of leadership of the MUP of Bosnia and Herzegovina in keeping with
25 the treaty of Lisbon/Cutileiro Plan."
1 I was going to ask you about that.
2 MS. PACK: Could we have please P3009 up.
3 Now it's one page in the B/C/S. Two pages in the English.
4 Q. And what you could see in the B/C/S at the bottom. Might not be
5 able to see it now, but it's signed by Mandic. Correct?
6 A. I can see Momcilo Mandic's signature. To be honest, I am in a
7 position -- in no position to tell you whether this is, indeed, his
8 signature or not. But that's how it's signed: Mr. Momcilo Mandic, and
9 there's a signature. I don't know if it's indeed his or not.
10 Q. Okay. The date is the 31st of March. It's addressed, you can
11 see, to the minister, to the SJBs, to the CSBs, et cetera. It's the
12 dispatch to which you refer in paragraph 19; correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Ms. Pack, you should add the year, 1992.
15 MS. PACK: I'm grateful, Your Honour.
16 Q. 31st of March, 1992. And now please if you just look at the end
17 of this first paragraph where it starts:
18 "In order to conduct internal affairs on the territory of the
19 Republic of Serbian People in Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Ministry of
20 Interior of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina based in
21 Sarajevo is setting up the following Security Services Centres..."
22 And it goes on. Do you see that?
23 A. If I have to discuss the dispatch, I would need to read it, and
24 for that, the entire document should be enlarged. This is a dispatch
25 sent by the then-deputy minister of the interior. I'm in no position
1 to --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you were asked whether you saw what
3 Ms. Pack read to you. Apparently you do.
4 Please proceed.
5 MS. PACK: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 Q. If -- in fact, we can enlarge the second paragraph in the B/C/S.
7 And you can read that.
8 A. Give me a moment, please, to read it.
9 Q. I'll read it out:
10 "Within the above-mentioned Security Services Centres, in order
11 to carry out specific tasks and duties within the competence of the
12 organs of internal affairs, public security stations are set up for the
13 territories of municipalities."
15 "On the day this law comes into force, the Security Services
16 Centres and public security stations of the Socialist Federal Republic of
17 Bosnia-Herzegovina MUP on the territory of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia
18 and Herzegovina are abolished and cease to function and their authority,
19 i.e., tasks and duties within the competence of organs of internal
20 affairs are taken over by the above-mentioned organisational units of the
21 MUP of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina."
22 Have you read that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Mandic declared in this dispatch on the 31st of March, 1992, that
25 from the 1st of April republican CSB and SJB stations would cease to
1 function and would be taken over by Bosnian Serb CSBs and SJBs; right?
2 That's a what it says?
3 A. Yes. You have now read one part of the dispatch. I can see a
4 very minuscule version of that text. But I would not discuss anything
5 that was sent by Mr. Momcilo Mandic. That should be a question for him.
6 And what is your question for me?
7 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, first of all, wait for a question. Second,
8 whether it's a question for you or for Mr. Mandic is not for you decide
9 but is for Ms. Pack to decide. If you don't know the answer, just tell
10 us. If you do know the answer, irrespective of whether you thought it
11 would be better put to someone else, answer the question.
12 Please proceed, Ms. Pack.
13 MS. PACK:
14 Q. Mr. Karisik, I'm trying to clarify what you say in your own
15 statement at paragraph 19 where you say you refer to this dispatch. You
16 say this happened as a result of a signed agreement, the Cutileiro Plan
17 or the Treaty of Lisbon, as you call it, and that it was agreed by the
18 republican MUP leadership; right?
19 A. My answer is that this part which refers to the special police is
20 the only part I can comment upon. I can't comment upon the rest of the
21 dispatch. As far as our special police are concerned ...
22 Q. Right. So would it surprise you to learn that there is no such
23 thing as the Lisbon treaty and that the so-called Cutileiro Plan that you
24 refer to here in paragraph 19 was a statement of principles described as
25 the "basis of future negotiations," dated 18th of March, 1992? Did you
1 know that?
2 A. I knew that there was a dispatch issued by Mr. Momcilo Mandic.
3 We also knew that the Cutileiro Plan had been issued. That's all we
5 Q. Okay. I'm going to ask you, please, to look at another document.
6 MS. PACK: It is 65 ter 10750.
7 Q. And you can see on the B/C/S at page 1, it's -- in the English
8 translation at page 2 it is from Alija Delimustafic, the minister of the
9 republican MUP. You can see that?
10 MS. PACK: No, B/C/S page 1, please.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Could it be enlarged? Do you want the first part or
12 the second part, Ms. Pack.
13 MS. PACK: I want to go to the second part, please. Second and
14 third paragraphs I'll be looking at.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Can you read it, Witness?
16 MS. PACK: Right.
17 Q. So this is dated the 31st --
18 JUDGE ORIE: I asked the witness if he could read it.
19 MS. PACK: I apologise, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Can you read the --
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can, but it will take some
23 JUDGE ORIE: You can read it. It's large enough. That was my
25 Please proceed.
1 MS. PACK: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Q. Okay. So we this -- it's for Alija Delimustafic, it's dated at
3 the top there 31st of March, 1992, same day as the dispatch from Mandic,
4 and it's to all the MUP administrations. You can see that at the top.
5 The SDB, the CSB, SJBs, SMs, the police stations; right?
6 And just briefly at paragraph 1, the first paragraph, it's
7 English page 1 in the first paragraph, B/C/S, same page, briefly that
8 paragraph refers, doesn't it, you can see the reference number in the
9 name to the Mandic dispatch I've just shown you in the middle of that
10 paragraph; right?
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Karisik, do you agree that reference is made to
12 the dispatch we just looked at which was --
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, there's a reference to a
14 dispatch. I can see it written here.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can see that
17 Minister Delimustafic makes reference to Mr. Momcilo Mandic's dispatch.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 MS. PACK: Okay. And in the English, please, page 2, B/C/S same
20 page, it's the second paragraph I'm going to read.
21 Q. He says:
22 "Finally, I would like to take this opportunity to again express
23 my belief that the greatest number of MUP workers wish to work in a
24 united MUP and that they find any segregation, especially on a national
25 basis, difficult. Do not allow anyone to separate you from your work
1 colleagues, because there are countless examples of mutual solidarity and
2 sacrifice for others in carrying out security tasks even in conditions in
3 which their execution endangers one's ... life."
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: "One's own life."
5 MS. PACK: "One's own life." Thank you for the correction.
6 Q. Were you aware that Delimustafic the republican minister did not
7 agree to the abolishment of the republican CSBs and SJBs or to the
8 division of the MUP upon national or ethnic lines?
9 A. No, I was not aware of that. I have not seen this dispatch
10 before at all.
11 MS. PACK: Your Honours, I'd like to admit.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
13 THE REGISTRAR: The number P7212, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Is admitted into evidence.
15 MS. PACK: Thank you.
16 Q. Now I'd like to show you P00406.
17 JUDGE ORIE: While we're waiting for it. Could I ask the
18 witness --
19 Witness, in your statement you say that this was an action which
20 was agreed upon. Now you're shown another dispatch issued by
21 Delimustafic which says the contrary. On what basis did you state that
22 it was agreed upon?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the basis of a decision of
24 Mr. Delimustafic's collegium. I stated that the division of the special
25 police entailed division of their headquarters. I've not seen this
1 dispatch before.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Now, the one document you referred to in your
3 statement doesn't say anything about an agreement, does it?
4 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, those are the pages numbers that I had
5 directed you to and this is the document the Prosecution objected as
6 being not -- well, they objected to the admission of it, so it's not been
7 admitted. It's 1D5310. And again, the page numbers I had --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. So you say that those portions of it do
9 support that. Of course, I only had a glance to it. If I have read them
10 not sufficiently accurately, then I'll do that again.
11 MR. IVETIC: They discussion the whole development of the
12 situation through the collegium and that, specifically pages 9 and 10,
13 the minister says nothing can be done without an
14 [Overlapping speakers] ... collegium.
15 JUDGE ORIE: I'll have a further look at it and perhaps read it
16 in more detail. That's one of the problems the Judges have, that they
17 are presented with documents of several pages and we only received the
18 relevant information when we came back to court.
19 Please proceed.
20 MS. PACK: Well, Your Honour, this is the extracts from the book,
21 "Sarajavan [phoen] Roulette," I take it, that my friend is giving
22 evidence about its content that he didn't take the witness to. But I'm
23 unclear --
24 MR. IVETIC: The testimony --
25 MS. PACK: Okay.
1 MR. IVETIC: -- of Minister Alija Delimustafic, the man who
2 authored the dispatch that you had on the screen previously, 5D -- pardon
3 me, 1D5309.
4 JUDGE ORIE: That was the 16-page extract not only the statement
5 of Delimustafic, as you told us, but also a statement of I think the
6 accused in that case. But at least recordings of proceedings of which
7 the Chamber is not aware exactly what the proceedings were about in 2007,
8 but at least there were proceedings apparently, before I take it, the
9 state court because I saw a reference made to judges, international
11 MR. IVETIC: That is correct, Your Honours. It's a proceeding in
12 the case of Mandic. And when I indicated Mr. Mandic the accused, he was
13 examining or questioning Mr. Delimustafic in part.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Just for clarity, Mr. Ivetic, the number 1D5315
16 was erroneously used by you.
17 MR. IVETIC: I apologise. It should be 1D5309.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Pack -- well, I'm looking at
21 the clock. Perhaps it's better not to proceed at this moment but,
22 rather, to take a break first.
23 Witness, we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes. We'll take a
24 break, and you may now follow the usher.
25 [The witness stands down]
1 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at quarter past 12.00.
2 --- Recess taken at 11.57 a.m.
3 --- On resuming at 12.20 p.m.
4 JUDGE ORIE: We'll wait for the witness to be escorted in the
6 [The witness takes the stand]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pack, if you're ready, please proceed.
8 MS. PACK: Thank you, Mr. President.
9 Q. Mr. Karisik, we have up on the screen there P00406. It's a
10 record of the Bosnian Serb Assembly Session of the 24th of March, 1992.
11 MS. PACK: And if we can go, please, in the English to page 22
12 and the B/C/S to page 39.
13 Q. Right. In the B/C/S I'm asking you to look at the second
14 paragraph on that page, and in the English the fifth paragraph. And can
15 you take it from me it's Mr. Karadzic speaking.
16 MS. PACK: You see that on the previous pages, Your Honour.
17 Q. Now, I'll just read out from the record, beginning: "You can be
18 sure that..."
19 "You can be sure that numbers of the police are quite sufficient.
20 I know that the Serbs cannot do what the HOS is doing, to do things which
21 are not based on law. We have a legal basis in the Law on Internal
22 Affairs and we also have the insignia and at a desired moment, and this
23 will be very soon, we can form whatever we want. There are reasons why
24 this could happen in two or three days. Such are the forecasts, but I
25 cannot tell you the reasons now. At that moment, all the Serbian
1 municipalities both the old ones and the newly established ones, would
2 literally assume control of the entire territory of the municipality
3 concerned. The Zvornik municipality takes control over everything that
4 constitutes the Serbian municipality of Zvornik. Then, at a given
5 moment, in the next three or four days, there will be a single method
6 used and you will be able to apply it in the municipalities you
7 represent, including both things that must be done as well as how to do
8 them. How to separate the police force, take the resources that belong
9 to the Serbian people and take command. The police must be under the
10 control of the civilian authority, it must obey it, there is no
11 discussion about that - and that's the way it must be. I think we shall
12 hear it today in the form of instructions at the Deputies Club."
13 So Karadzic is forecasting on the 24th of March, 1992, the
14 taking-over of control over territory and that the Serbian MUP already in
15 part of that process; right?
16 A. This is the first time I see this document as well. I couldn't
17 have seen it earlier because I'm not a member of the Assembly of the Serb
18 People. My position then was one of the supervisors of one part of the
19 police within the Ministry of the Interior. I never came across this,
20 and I never received anything that would make it compulsory for me to act
21 upon this.
22 This is political talk. I'm a professional. And I was far away
23 from that then. I find all of this unknown, these decisions, these
24 transcripts. I have no comment. I'm not supposed to comment on it. I
25 didn't act on this at the time. I was not aware of it, either. That's
1 my answer.
2 Q. Well, you've talked about politics in your statement at
3 paragraph 19. You were an outstanding professional, so you say, in the
4 MUP. You would agree, wouldn't you, that you knew that long before the
5 end of March the Serbian MUP, together with the Serbian Territorial
6 Defence, would be the means by which Serb control over territory in
7 Bosnia was secured before the VRS was established, and you knew that?
8 A. You've made several statements that I'm not aware of. I just
9 know one thing: What happened to me at the joint special unit, what the
10 problems were that I encountered, and ultimately what my decision was
11 because even my life was threatened because there was this disruption in
12 the relations there, and I know that the division of the unit was done
13 well, it was at the collegium of Minister Delimustafic, I can speak about
14 that. As for political decisions that I knew -- that I did not know of,
15 I was not supposed to be informed about that either. I just took into
16 account what was happening in my micro-cycle.
17 Q. Well, let me ask to play a video please.
18 MS. PACK: Your Honours, it's 65 ter 32286a. And there are B/C/S
19 and English translations available and they will come up.
20 [Video-clip played]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pack, I think we have to play it again.
22 MS. PACK: I understand that we play it again, yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So that we receive the English interpretation.
24 [Video-clip played]
25 "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] The historical moment of the time
1 in which this meeting is being held can be compared to other critical
2 moments at the very beginning of the war, perhaps even to the meeting
3 held at the very Holiday Inn Hotel in Sarajevo when we, together with the
4 political structures from the ranks of the Serbian people, received
5 instructions for creating a Serbian state in the territory of the former
6 Bosnia and Herzegovina. For the purpose of the most vivid presentation
7 of the current historical moment in which we find ourselves as members of
8 the MUP of Republika Srpska and of the Serbian people, I have to remind
9 you of some moments at the beginning of the war.
10 "The former MUP personnel of Serb nationality were the first
11 among all Serb institutions in the territory of the former BiH who
12 created a state organ - the then-Serb MUP - as an organ of this Serb
13 state, created MUP combat units which, together with the Territorial
14 Defence units created by the Serbian Democratic Party in all places in
15 Republika Srpska, existed as the backbone of the Serbian movement in the
16 fight for the protection of the people and the creation of the Serbian
18 MS. PACK: Thank you. We can have the transcript on the screen
19 as well in B/C/S and English, but I'm just going to ask a quick couple of
21 Q. That person talking in the clip Tomislav Kovac; yes?
22 A. Yes, I recognise him. It's Tomislav Kovac, deputy minister of
23 the interior. I don't know when in terms of time this occurred. The
24 time, date, year.
25 JUDGE ORIE: You were asked whether you recognised the person and
1 apparently you do.
2 At the same time, Ms. Pack, the Chamber, of course, also would be
3 interested to know when this was broadcasted or where it comes from.
4 That's a proper way of introducing such a video.
5 MS. PACK: Yes, Your Honour. It's an excerpt from a compilation
6 of documentary and news programmes from the TV station SRT, Serbian Radio
7 Television. Now I gather that this is dated 1995, but I don't have a
8 date on the interview to indicate that. I can check with the witness,
9 it's certainly before the war, and I can confirm that with him.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take that you have your own knowledge about
11 it as well, so you put to him what you think is. But you could ask the
13 Please proceed as you consider appropriate.
14 MS. PACK:
15 Q. This was Kovac before the end of the war, before the end of 1995;
17 A. Well, I cannot confirm that just like you cannot what the exact
18 time is, but I think that it's possible that it's that period, when he
19 held the position of the deputy minister of the interior of
20 Republika Srpska. It is possible that this is some ceremony at which he
21 is speaking.
22 Q. Thank you. And he was holding that position in 1995, we know,
23 promoted to minister later in 1995; is that right? Yes?
24 A. As far as I know, yes.
25 Q. And he's talking about events going back, 1991 and 1992; right?
1 A. Yes. This is a speech of his own on the occasion of this
2 ceremony. It is a ceremonial speech. Now what is the question for me?
3 Q. You wanted a question just about your very narrow field of
4 interest, as you say in 1992, you -- you heard Mr. Kovac say that MUP
5 combat units along with the Territorial Defence were the "backbone of the
6 Serbian movement in the fight for the protection of the people and the
7 creation of the Serbian state."
8 This is before the VRS was established. You would agree with
9 that, would you, backbone of the Serbian movement to create a Serbian
11 A. Yes, I agree that that is the period from the 5th of April up
12 until sometime in mid-May. Until the Army of Republika Srpska was
13 established. On that, I agree with what he said. That is when armed
14 operations started and war started, this unfortunate war in
16 MS. PACK: Your Honours, I'd like to tender that into evidence,
17 the clip.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 32286a receives number P7213.
20 JUDGE ORIE: P7213 is admitted.
21 MS. PACK:
22 Q. You've just spoken about the period after the VRS was
23 established, and I'd like to show you, please, another video.
24 MS. PACK: This is 32287b.
25 [Video-clip played]
1 MS. PACK: And, Your Honours, could we play that again.
2 JUDGE ORIE: We play it again so that the Chamber receives and
3 everyone else receives English translation.
4 Please proceed.
5 [Video-clip played]
6 "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] As the commander of the Army of
7 Republika Srpska just said, and I have to repeat it here, the Ministry of
8 Interior and its members - both those who take part in the defence of
9 Republika Srpska and those who work inside on their regular police
10 tasks - and the Army of Republika Srpska are a single organism, a single
11 cell -- or rather, many cells in a single organism with their roles in
12 the organism. This is an indivisible force, you know, that together make
13 up the armed forces of Republika Srpska, and we can promise our people in
14 the area of Republika Srpska that as long as they have their army and the
15 elite units of the Ministry of the Interior, they should not worry about
16 a single bullet in Republika Srpska being shot by a wild attacking
18 MS. PACK: And, Your Honours, again, just for Your Honours, this
19 is an excerpt again from Serbian Radio Television, SRT, documentaries and
20 clips relating to statements and interviews of the individual I'm going
21 ask the witness to identify.
22 Q. Witness, Mico Stanisic in the clip?
23 A. Yes, that is the first minister of the interior, Mico Stanisic.
24 But I would kindly ask -- ask you to tell me what the period is when this
25 took place? The time?
1 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, wait, wait. It's for you to answer
2 questions, not to take the lead in how to proceed. Leave that to the
3 parties and to the Bench.
4 Please proceed.
5 MS. PACK: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 Q. Are you able to date this looking at Mico Stanisic in that video?
7 A. Me? No.
8 Q. Now, having heard what he said, I'm going ask you a question.
9 You agree that the army and the police worked together, as he said, as a
10 single organism, a single cell or, rather, many cells in a single
11 organism after the VRS was established?
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic.
13 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I'm going to object. Without a time
14 reference, I think the question is too vague and speculative.
15 JUDGE ORIE: The question will then cover a period in which
16 Mr. Stanisic was apparently in a position to make statements on the
18 Witness, is there -- could you confirm or would you deny that in
19 the Republika Srpska that the army and the police would work together as
20 a single organism, a single cell or, rather, many cells in a single
21 organism after the VRS was established? So that is after early May 1992.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My answer is that the Army of
23 Republika Srpska and the units of the Ministry of the Interior of
24 Republika Srpska constitute the armed forces of Republika Srpska. That
25 is a constitutional and legal category in Republika Srpska.
1 JUDGE ORIE: The question was whether, as far as you understand,
2 they would work together as a single organism, a single cell, or, rather,
3 many cells in a single organism. That was the question. If you can,
4 tell us; if you are unable to tell us, please say that as well.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This pertains to the participation
6 in combat operations only. My understanding of the remarks made by
7 Minister Stanisic is that this pertains to participation in combat
8 operations in the defence of Republika Srpska.
9 MS. PACK: Your Honours, I'd tender that clip into evidence.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 32287b receives number P7214.
12 JUDGE ORIE: P7214 is admitted.
13 MS. PACK: Thank you. Your Honour, I'd ask please to show 03216.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Is this a 65 ter number or a P number?
15 MS. PACK: I'm grateful, Your Honour. It's a 65 ter number.
16 Q. Now you, of course, recognise this. It's the Law on Internal
17 Affairs adopted, as you can see, on the 28th of February, 1992.
18 Recognise the document?
19 A. Yes, you can see that this is the Law on Internal Affairs.
20 Q. I'm going to ask you about a couple of provisions.
21 MS. PACK: If we go to the English translation at page 6 and the
22 B/C/S also at page 6.
23 Q. I just want to ask you about Article 43. You can just read it.
24 "Authorised officials must execute orders issued by the minister
25 or by their immediate senior official for the purposes [sic] of
1 performing activities and tasks related to national and public security
2 except when such orders contravene the constitution and the law."
3 Question: Part of what this article says is that orders in the
4 MUP came from the minister; right?
5 A. Yes, issuing orders is within the exclusive remit of the
6 minister, according to the principle of subordination and hierarchy which
7 prevailed in the Ministry of the Interior. It says here that everybody
8 is duty bound to comply with the minister's orders unless orders were
9 issued at any level and constituted a crime. It says here they would be
10 contrary to the law and constitution. This means that our law, which are
11 binding on the minister and all the officials of the Ministry of the
12 Interior, are duty-bound to honour the provisions and articles of the
13 Law on Internal Affairs.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pack, if the witness moves to an area which is
15 not covered by your question, then unless you consider that you wanted
16 all this, but then I would have phrased the question differently; that
17 is, to further analyse the content of this article where you just asked
18 whether orders would come from the MUP -- would come from the minister.
19 MS. PACK: Thank you, Your Honour, for your indication.
20 Can we go to the English translation page 2, B/C/S page 3.
21 Q. And I'm going to ask you just to look at Article 15. Now, brief
22 answer to this question, please. I'm not going to read this all out.
23 This article, you can see, it describes the role of the public security
24 service of which you were head in 1995; correct? This article does --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pack, it's fine that you don't read it, but then
1 you should give -- either inquire whether the witness is familiar with
2 Article 15 or give him time to read it.
3 MS. PACK: Of course.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Are you familiar with Article 15, Witness?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask some time to
6 read. In principle, I am familiar with the regulations within the sphere
7 of internal affairs. However, if you want me to discuss a specific
8 article, I would love to be able to read it first.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Haven't I been clear enough that time will be given
10 to read it?
11 Please do so. Read Article 15. And please tell us when you are
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe I've had enough time and
14 that I can follow the question.
15 MS. PACK:
16 Q. You are, of course, already familiar with Article 15; right?
17 A. I believe so, yes. These are the basic competences of the public
18 security department.
19 Q. And those basic competencies included preventing crimes and
20 tracking down and arresting perpetrators of criminal offences; right?
21 Yes or no.
22 A. I apologise. I don't understand the word "crime," because in my
23 version of the text it says "a criminal act." It's a matter of
24 terminology, but important. I understand the question -- I don't
25 understand the question.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Well, we have the text before us, Ms. Pack, so let's
2 move on and put your next question to the witness.
3 MS. PACK: Thank you.
4 And just the next page, Article 18, please. Page 3 in the B/C/S
5 and in the English.
6 Q. And, again, you recognise Article 18, familiar with it?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And it's talking about the National Security Service; right?
9 A. I can see only the beginning of this article, and can I see that
10 term in the title, "national security," so yes.
11 MS. PACK: Now, Your Honour, I would ask, please, to have this
12 document admitted into evidence.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Let's have a look at -- what is the total number of
14 pages of this document?
15 MS. PACK: I can go through more provisions but it's actually not
16 that many. It's a total in the English of 17 pages, and it's just the
17 rest of the Law on Internal Affairs.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do we need them all? You have addressed a few
19 articles. Do we need all 18 pages in the English version?
20 MS. PACK: Well, I can go through another couple of articles.
21 JUDGE ORIE: No, I'm not asking you to go into other articles.
22 But if you want to draw our attention to certain elements in this law,
23 then -- and otherwise you can explain that you need the whole of the --
24 the whole of the text because you would refer to it with another --
25 whatever it is, but we'd like it know where you addressed, until now,
1 only a few articles, whether we need the whole of the text.
2 MS. PACK: Yes, my preference would be to have the whole of the
3 text in, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: And for what reason?
5 MS. PACK: Because there are other articles that I would refer
6 to. Not the whole of the law, obviously, but I'm -- for example, I
7 would -- could take the witness to another couple of articles.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Well, then wait for a while, then we'll hear where
9 you take the witness. But the mere fact that there are other articles,
10 in itself is that a very strong reason? Because if you have one page of
11 a book and say, I want all pages, if the question would be why, because
12 there are other pages, that's, of course, not very convincing an
14 If you -- so it's -- please -- please proceed. And then make up
15 your mind once you've dealt with all you intended to deal with and see
16 whether we still need the whole of the law or whether we can do with part
17 of it.
18 MS. PACK: Well, Your Honours, actually I could just circumvent
19 having -- your having to wait and perhaps ask to have the law up to and
20 including Article 43, which I addressed, that's at page 6, so at least
21 for now pages 1 to 6 the English. And so far as the --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Apparently you do not understand me. If you take
23 the last paragraph and say therefore we need everything in between is
24 similarly not a very strong argument, if I could -- of course, what we
25 want is focused admission of evidence relevant in relation to the
1 testimony of this witness.
2 MS. PACK: Well, Your Honours, can I just deal with now which
3 pages it would be -- advised would -- having -- in my submission, could I
4 have pages 1, 2, 3, of the English; 4, which talks about Article 26 which
5 I'll come to; and then 6, which is Article 43. And that's that. And
6 then I'd -- the relevant B/C/S pages.
7 JUDGE ORIE: And then you have to upload all that --
8 MS. PACK: I'm grateful.
9 JUDGE ORIE: -- in such a format that it can be admitted.
10 MS. PACK: Thank you.
11 JUDGE ORIE: We already reserve a number for the extract of the
12 Law on Internal Affairs.
13 Madam Registrar, the number reserved for that purpose would be?
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the number would be P7215.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and is reserved for the purpose I just
17 Please proceed.
18 MS. PACK: I'm grateful, Your Honour.
19 Q. Now I'd like to please show you P3855. We see up on the screen
20 this document is dated the 15th of May, 1992. Now, if we could just
21 please turn to page -- the last page, in fact, of both. Page 2 in the
22 B/C/S; page 4 in the English, just to look at the signatory. You can see
23 it's from Mico Stanisic, signed and stamped. Yes?
24 A. Is this a question for me?
25 Q. Yes, it's a question. It's the signatory of Mico Stanisic; yes?
1 A. The minister's name is typed up. I believe that it is also his
2 signature, but it was a long time ago so I really can't remember what his
3 signature really looks like.
4 Q. Can we go to the English translation page 3 and the B/C/S page 2,
5 and I'd ask you to look at point 7, paragraph 3, when it comes up. I'll
6 read it out while -- it says here:
7 "While participating in combat operations, the units of the
8 ministry shall be subordinated to the command of the armed forces;
9 however, the ministry units shall be under the direct command of certain
10 ministry officials."
11 Now before I ask you a question, I'm going to ask you to look at
12 another document.
13 MS. PACK: Can we look, please, at 65 ter 32273. I'd ask for
14 page 80.
15 Q. Now, this is an English transcript of an interview that was
16 conducted with you by the Office of the Prosecutor here in May 2004, and
17 I'm going to read out very slowly so that you can have it translated what
18 you said.
19 So from page -- sorry, from line 12, MK, that's you, I'm reading
20 from there, line 1:
21 "During our combat activities, we would be resubordinated to the
22 area brigade of the VRS -- sorry, the brigade of the VRS of that area and
23 we would execute our combat activities and we would receive our orders
24 from the VRS commander. That was the principle of our work in combat
1 "Q. Who did you report to in Visegrad?"
2 Answer, you:
3 "In Visegrad, we submitted the reports to Minister Stanisic, but
4 we received our orders for combat activities from the commander of the
5 Visegrad brigade.
6 "Q. Who was he?
7 "A. At the time it was ... Vinko Pandurevic was his name."
8 Now this -- you can tell the me whether you remember this. This
9 is you talking about your own experience in 1992 when you were commander
10 of the special unit; is that right.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. It's accurate what you state here?
13 A. Yes, absolutely correct. Resubordinated to the Visegrad Brigade
14 as the commander of special unit on behalf of the Ministry of Interior
15 for -- for combat. This is how it was. We honoured a legitimate and
16 lawful order of the minister of the interior, as you saw in the previous
17 document. That's how the document is worded, that things should be
18 done -- done legally. I honoured that in the field, and you can see it
19 in the second document, and I also reported to the minister when I
20 returned back to the base.
21 Q. I didn't ask you about that. Thank you. If you could just keep
22 your answer to the question.
23 So during combat activities you were resubordinated to the
24 relevant VRS unit, you received orders from the VRS commander, you
25 submitted reports to the minister?
1 A. Yes. But I sent my reports to the minister only when I returned
2 from combat.
3 Q. You remained in command of your own unit; right?
4 A. I commanded my own units, the special police. And my commander
5 was the brigade commander of the VRS. I received my orders from him
6 when I was engaged in combat.
7 Q. If we can go back, please, to P03855 --
8 JUDGE ORIE: While we're waiting for that, could I ask one
10 You said you reported to the minister only after you returned
11 from combat. The document said "in Visegrad, we submitted the reports to
12 the minister."
13 Do we have to understand that you did that when you were in
14 Visegrad and that you then had returned from combat; or how do we have to
15 understand the two answers in context?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My answer is the same. I reported
17 to the minister only when I returned. When combat was over. During that
18 combat, I was resubordinated to the VRS brigade. I had daily activities.
19 I did not have the time to report to the minister. I was engaged in
21 JUDGE ORIE: Do I then have to understand that when you were in
22 Visegrad that you had returned from combat or ...
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After the engagement in Visegrad, I
24 reported to my minister, not while I was in Visegrad.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.
1 Please proceed.
2 MS. PACK: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Q. So what you're saying now is that what you said to the OTP in
4 2004, in Visegrad we submitted the reports to Minister Stanisic, that's
5 not accurate?
6 A. I don't understand. When was I supposed to have said it? I
7 don't understand your question.
8 Q. I've just read out to you what you said in 2004. It doesn't
9 matter when you said it. You said this:
10 "In Visegrad, we submitted the reports to Minister Stanisic but
11 we received our orders for combat activities from the commander of the
12 Visegrad brigade."
13 Now is that not accurate?
14 A. It is accurate, and I remember that I was subordinated to the
15 local military commander of the VRS. I received my orders from him. I
16 reported to the minister on return. I believe that this is what I said.
17 It's a very general statement, but it covers the way I behaved. That's
18 what I always did, and there are no unknowns in that.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just try to get matters straight.
20 When you said in the interview, "In Visegrad, we submitted
21 reports to the minister," that suggests that that activity - that is,
22 submitting the report - happened when you were in Visegrad.
23 Now today you told us that you submitted these reports only after
24 you had returned from combat. So after you had returned from Visegrad.
25 So it's not exactly the same.
1 That's what Ms. Pack is drawing your attention to, and she now
2 puts to you that today you are slightly giving a different answer to the
3 question; that is, that you did not do it when you were in Visegrad but
4 you did do it when you had returned from combat and therefore had
5 returned from Visegrad. Is that how it is?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You have to understand my answer.
7 I did not send daily reports to the minister from Visegrad. I only
8 reported to him in my capacity as the commander of a special police unit
9 when I came back home, when I returned from combat, that is my answer.
10 JUDGE ORIE: So a simple yes would have done.
11 Please proceed.
12 MS. PACK: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Q. We'll go back, please. We're looking at it on the screen. It's
14 P03855 [Realtime transcript read in error "8355"] again. And please, can
15 we just go to English page 3, B/C/S page 2. It's point 7, paragraph 3,
16 the one we were looking at before, beginning:
17 "While participating in combat operations, the units of the
18 ministry shall be subordinated to the command of the armed forces;
19 however, the ministry units shall be under the direct command of certain
20 ministry officials."
21 That's what you were describing, is it, earlier -- in your
22 earlier interview when you were saying you received orders from the VRS
23 commander, Pandurevic, in Visegrad; yes?
24 A. Yes.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Is it 3855 or 8355.
1 MS. PACK: It's 3855.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Then you misspoke.
3 MS. PACK: Forgive me.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please continue.
5 MS. PACK: I apologies, Your Honour.
6 Q. Same page, point 9. We can just look at it and it describes:
7 "In order to command and control the forces of the ministry, a
8 staff shall be established comprising: Minister of the interior as the
10 And then over in the English, same page in the B/C/S:
11 "... under-secretary for public security - deputy commander ..."
12 And then a few down: "Commander of the police detachment,"
13 that's you, "member."
14 So you were a member of the police forces' staff in 1992; is that
16 A. Yes, my answer is affirmative.
17 Q. Now we'll go to Srebrenica. In July 1995, you told us you were
18 chief of the public security department and assistant minister of the MUP
19 and also a member of the MUP staff in Pale, the police forces Command
20 Staff; is that right?
21 A. Yes, I was appointed as a member of the staff of police forces at
22 Pale, according to a dispatch by the minister. Yes, I was a member of
23 that staff.
24 Q. Now you signed your witness statement in the Karadzic case on the
25 23rd of June, 2013, then you testified in the Karadzic case on the 27th
1 of June and the 2nd July 2013. I'm going to ask you to you look at your
2 statement, paragraph 40.
3 MS. PACK: And for Your Honours, it's D935.
4 And in the English, as it's coming up, paragraph 40 is at page
5 13. B/C/S page 14. Thank you.
6 Q. I'll just to remind you what you say: "I also have absolutely no
7 knowledge of any plan to expel civilians forcibly from Serbia and I am
8 not aware that there was plan to capture and liquidate members of the
9 28th Muslim Division."
10 Do you still maintain that?
11 A. Absolutely, yes.
12 Q. And to clarify, you said you had no knowledge in July 1995 and
13 you have no knowledge now, present tense, about any plan to forcibly
14 expel the Muslim civilians of Srebrenica and execute the men?
15 A. Yes. Nobody ever showed me a plan for forceable actions or
16 executions of prisoners in Srebrenica.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you said "no one showed me a plan" and the
18 question was about whether you had any knowledge of a plan. Now it is
19 possible that you have knowledge of a plan without ever being shown a
20 document about it.
21 Could you please keep that well in mind that the question was
22 about whether you had knowledge of a plan, not on whether you were shown
23 a plan.
24 So could I seek again your answer whether you had any knowledge
25 of a plan as explained by Ms. Pack?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My answer is no.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
3 MS. PACK:
4 Q. Okay. Leaving aside the plan, you are aware now, present tense,
5 that Muslim civilians were forcibly removed from Srebrenica and thousands
6 of Muslim men executed?
7 MR. IVETIC: Object, as it's a compound question.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please rephrase the question.
9 MS. PACK: Of course.
10 JUDGE ORIE: And could you also keep in mind that this statement,
11 of course, reflects what the witness knew at the time he gave the
12 statement, and that it looks as if you're now asking him also about his
13 knowledge at this very day, which may be different from what he knew in
14 2013. I do not know. But we should clearly distinguish that.
15 Could you please put the rephrased question to the witness.
16 MS. PACK:
17 Q. Today, as we sit here in the courtroom, you are aware that Muslim
18 civilians were forcibly removed from Srebrenica; yes or no?
19 A. In 2013, I provided a statement about what I knew then and I can
20 only confirm that today.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, that is not the question. And if you have
22 carefully listened, you would know that I already clearly made that
23 distinction and that's the reason why Ms. Pack asked you about your
24 knowledge today. Are you aware today that Muslim civilians were forcibly
25 removed from Srebrenica? And I take it that the reference would be to
1 July 1995.
2 MS. PACK: Thank you, yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So with that provision, are you today aware of
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To this very day, I don't know the
6 whole truth about that. I was not in Srebrenica. I did not have a role
7 to play there at all.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, sometimes I know things or at least have
9 gained knowledge about things I did not personally observe. Again, it's
10 not the question whether you know everything of it. The question simply
11 is: Are you aware of civilians being forcibly removed from Srebrenica in
12 July 1995? Awareness as of today. Could you please answer that
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Today I don't know that civilians
15 were treated in that way. Today I know that people were taken prisoner.
16 Muslim soldiers were. That I know today. What you asked me about
17 civilians, I don't know.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
19 MS. PACK:
20 Q. Second half of the compound question. Today, as you sit here in
21 the courtroom, you were aware in July 1995 thousands of Muslim men were
22 executed; yes or no? Thousands of Muslim men of Srebrenica, to be
23 absolutely clear.
24 A. I don't know today either.
25 MS. PACK: Your Honour, is now a convenient time for the break?
1 I've lost my times.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Well, as a matter of fact, we are already five
3 minutes past the time we would usually take a break.
4 We'll take a break and we'll resume at 20 minutes to 2.00. The
5 witness may follow the usher.
6 [The witness stands down]
7 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at 20 minutes to 2.00.
8 --- Recess taken at 1.20 p.m.
9 --- On resuming at 1.40 p.m.
10 MS. PACK: Your Honours, before the witness comes in, I can just
11 update you as to the status of the extracts from the law that --
12 [The witness takes the stand]
13 JUDGE ORIE: You can't do that before the witness comes in
14 because the witness is in already. But we'll hear from you later.
15 Please proceed, Ms. Pack.
16 MS. PACK: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Q. I'd like to remind you of your testimony in the Karadzic case.
18 MS. PACK: Could we have 65 ter 32251 in e-court. We need
19 page 29.
20 Q. Now this is in English, but I'm going to read it out to you.
21 It's your statement. It's the transcript of your oral testimony.
22 You were asked, and I'll read it slowly, from line 4:
23 "Q. Are you testifying that you never received information that
24 prisoner had been taken in the Srebrenica operation?"
25 You answered:
1 "I'm not sure now whether there is some dispatch, it really has
2 been a long time, that says that prisoners had been taken. In
3 particular, I do not have a report and no one ever reported to me about
4 any executions in certain locations. I do not have a single report like
5 that as head of the RJB.
6 "Q. Yeah, again that wasn't the question. The question was:
7 You say you don't remember. Are you telling us that you don't remember
8 whether you knew in July 1995, as head of the RJB, that the Serb forces
9 had taken -- VRS and MUP had taken -- and/or MUP had taken large numbers
10 of prisoner -- any prisoners?
11 "A. No.
12 "Q. Don't [overlapping speakers] ...
13 "A. Categorically I had never been reported to about that. I
14 cannot confirm that."
15 And that was your truthful testimony, was it, in the Karadzic
17 A. If I may, I would like to have the Serbian translation of this
18 transcript with all due respect to you, Madam Prosecutor.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, there's no Serbian version of this.
20 Therefore, it's read to you slowly in English so that it could be
21 interpreted for you, and it's a verbatim record of the -- your
22 examination in the Karadzic case.
23 If you would wish the relevant portion to be read to you again,
24 Ms. Pack certainly will do.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I would like -- the
1 transcript is very long, isn't it, and my focus is not that great at this
2 moment for such a long passage, especially as I hear it in English.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you hear it in your own language if you listen
4 to the translation.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May it be repeated? Okay. May it
6 be repeated?
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 Would you please read it again, Ms. Pack.
9 MS. PACK: Yes, Your Honour.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Slower, of course.
11 MS. PACK:
12 "Q. Are you testifying that you never received information that
13 prisoner had been taken in the Srebrenica operation?
14 "A. I'm not sure now whether there is some dispatch, it really
15 has been a long time, that says that prisoners had been taken. In
16 particular, I do not have a report and no one ever reported to me about
17 any executions in certain locations. I do not have a single report like
18 that as head of the RJB.
19 "Q. Yeah, again, that wasn't the question. The question was:
20 You say you don't remember. Are you telling us that you don't remember
21 whether you knew in July 1995, as head of the RJB, that the Serb forces
22 had taken -- VRS and MUP had taken -- and/or MUP had taken large numbers
23 of prisoners? Any prisoners?
24 "A. No.
25 "Q. Don't [Overlapping speakers] ...
1 "A. Categorically I had never been reported to about that. I
2 cannot confirm that."
3 Now, is that your truthful testimony in the Karadzic case.
4 A. Yes, I provide the same answer today as I did in that case.
5 Q. You met with Radovan Karadzic in Pale on the 10th and 11th July,
6 this is your statement, on the 10th of July, along with Dragan Kijac,
7 head of the DB, for 20 minutes; and on the 11th of July, 1995, for 15
8 minutes by yourself. That's paragraph 60 if you want to look at it.
9 That's your evidence; yes?
10 A. [In English] Okay.
11 Q. You've been shown Karadzic's diary previously, his agenda. And
12 you would accept that the meeting on the 11th of July was at around
13 10.30 p.m. to 10.45 p.m.; yes?
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That was a question to you, Witness.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I stand by that, and I confirm the
16 same answer that I provided in paragraph 60, that I was -- but that there
17 was this discussion of the offensive in Sarajevo; but as regards
18 Srebrenica, no, I stand by my former answer.
19 MS. PACK:
20 Q. Right. So your honest evidence today is that on the 10th and
21 11th of July, 1995, when you met with Radovan Karadzic in Pale, you
22 didn't discuss Srebrenica at all?
23 A. That's right, I did not discuss Srebrenica. I didn't know
24 anything that was going on, either. I talked about Sarajevo, where I was
25 on the staff.
1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could all other
2 microphones pleased be switched off. Thank you.
3 MS. PACK:
4 Q. You didn't know anything.
5 MS. PACK: Can we have a look, please, at D00129.
6 Q. Now, you were shown this document before when you were
7 cross-examined in the Karadzic case. It's dated the 10th of July, 1995.
8 And we can see in the B/C/S - and it's English, page 2 - that's it's from
9 Kovac. Yes?
10 A. Yes. That is what is written here, Staff Commander,
11 Tomislav Kovac.
12 Q. Police forces staff commander, deputy minister of the interior in
13 July 1995; correct?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. On 10th of July, and you can read this, based on the order of the
16 supreme commander of Republika Srpska armed forces, he orders,
17 paragraph 1:
18 "Single out part of the RS MUP forces participating in combat
19 operations on the Sarajevo front and send them as an independent unit to
20 the Srebrenica sector in the course of tomorrow, 11 July ..."
21 Paragraph 3:
22 "I hereby appoints Ljubisav Borovcanin, deputy commander of the
23 special police brigade, to the position of MUP unit commander."
24 Para 5 over on page 2 in the English:
25 "On arrival at the destination, the unit commander shall contact
1 General Krstic of the corps Chief of Staff."
2 So when you met Karadzic on the 10th of July with Kijac, you knew
3 about this order, no?
4 A. I'm not sure that I knew of this order at the time because the
5 order was issued to the staff and the staff is the one that prepares the
6 decision of the staff commander concerning realisation. I'm just a
7 member of the staff, and I'm not duty-bound to provide information to
8 President Karadzic about that. I adhere to my own role in the staff that
9 pertained to the Sarajevo-Romanija front.
10 Q. Okay. You are concerned with the Sarajevo front. This is what
11 you discuss with Radovan Karadzic when you meet him on the 10th of July.
12 MUP units participating in combat operations on the Sarajevo front, which
13 you say was your task, and the deputy commander of the special police
14 brigade, Borovcanin, are redeployed from Sarajevo to the Srebrenica area
15 upon the orders of the president and Kovac, and you didn't know about it,
16 you didn't discuss it with the president when you met him on the 10th,
17 11th of July?
18 A. Absolutely not.
19 Q. You're aware that members of this unit participated in the murder
20 of over a thousand Muslim prisoners at Kravica warehouse on the
21 13th July, three days later. You're aware of that?
22 A. No, I was not aware of that then.
23 Q. Aware of it now?
24 A. When I found out - after the war, from the media - then I heard
25 of that incident too that occurred in Kravica and the special police took
2 Q. On the 11th of July --
3 A. Took part in combat operations.
4 Q. On the 11th of July, you met the president the day that
5 Srebrenica fell, the day that Borovcanin was supposed to report to Krstic
6 in the Srebrenica area, you didn't discuss these significant events?
7 A. No. I did not discuss that because I didn't know about that. I
8 dealt with the Sarajevo front and that offensive there.
9 MS. PACK: Can we have, please, 65 ter 04007.
10 Q. On the 11th of July, you can see here, there's an order issued by
12 MS. PACK: We have to go ...
13 [Prosecution counsel confer]
14 MS. PACK: I notice that the second page isn't up there in the
15 B/C/S. Let me just check, if I may, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: You may check.
17 MS. PACK: It is there. Great.
18 Q. Okay. You can see that that's signed by Karadzic, the order, the
19 11th of July; correct? Correct?
20 A. In principle I can confirm that this is a dispatch from the
21 president who is issuing an order to the minister of the interior. That
22 I can confirm because that is seen here.
23 Q. Okay. We can go back to the first page in the B/C/S. You can
24 see there at paragraph 1 it's addressed to the minister. Paragraph 1, it
1 "I hereby order the formation of a public security station for
2 Serb Srebrenica after the Republika Srpska control has been established
3 in the municipality of Serb Srebrenica."
4 So this is an order setting up a Serbian police station the day
5 before the civilian population, the Muslim civilian population, are
6 removed; yes?
7 A. I cannot take part in your assertion, but I can say that the
8 Ministry of the Interior carried out the minister's order, obviously,
9 after the fall of Srebrenica that authority be established, especially
10 police authority. The rest I cannot comment upon, especially what you
11 are putting to me as a question. I don't know where prisoners of war
12 are, where prisoners are. I cannot comment upon the president's order,
13 which is legitimate. There is nothing more I can say. This is the only
14 comment that I can make as a witness.
15 Q. Paragraph 5, he says:
16 "Establish close co-operation with the Miroslav Deronjic, the
17 civilian commissioner for the municipality of Serb Srebrenica, as well as
18 with other bodies and organisations in this area."
19 Paragraph 5, B/C/S page 2. You see that?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Now, you, head of the RJB, you didn't discuss this order with the
22 president when you met him late at night on the 11th of July, 1995, in
24 A. My answer is no. This was a dispatch sent to the minister of the
25 interior, not me.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you've answered the question. You didn't
2 discuss it.
3 Please proceed.
4 MS. PACK: I'd ask to have that admitted into evidence,
5 Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, 04007 receives number P7216.
8 JUDGE ORIE: P7216 is admitted.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Ms. Pack, I assume that will you move to another
10 document or another topic. I have two clarifications to make.
11 MS. PACK: I was going to move on, yes, so I'll wait.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Karisik, a moment ago, you were asked about
13 the involvement of a -- of the special police in an event in Kravica.
14 The question was:
15 "You are aware that members of this unit participated in the
16 murder of over a thousand Muslim prisoners at Kravica warehouse on the
17 13th of July?"
18 And then you said:
19 "I was not aware of that."
20 Then the question again was:
21 "Are you aware of it now?"
22 And then you said:
23 "When I found out - after the war, from the media - then I heard
24 of that incident too that occurred in Kravica and the special police took
1 And then you added:
2 "Took part in combat operations."
3 Do you consider this event in Kravica warehouse as a combat
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No comment. I only told you what I
6 knew about the police. They found themselves in a situation where an
7 incident occurred and subsequently a crime. I don't know about the
8 situation as it was in the field. Cele, who was the commander of the
9 operation, would know that. I cannot comment upon that because I --
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is not my question. You commented on that.
11 You said "they took part in combat operations," with respect to Kravica
12 warehouse. I wanted to know if you consider that to be a combat
13 operation, what occurred in the Kravica warehouse.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You have put a wrong connotation to
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: No, no, sorry --
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that the Kravica warehouse
18 was an incident --
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Stop, stop. I quoted literally from the
20 transcript what you said a minute ago, and I would like to know from you
21 why you said "took part in combat operations" with respect to a Kravica
22 warehouse event. I would like to understand that.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not say that the incident in
24 Kravica was part of combat operations. When I say "combat operations or
25 activities," that means that the unit was under the commander of
1 Ljubisa Borovcanin and resubordinated to the command of the VRS and that
2 it participated in combat operations over there. The incident itself, in
3 Kravica, that is, of which I learned after the war, I cannot provide any
4 comments about it today save to say that I learned about that. I can't
5 share any details with you because I wasn't there. Combat operations is
6 a very general sweeping term, and the act has nothing to do with the
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. I move to another --
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, could you please keep your earphones on
11 for a second. No? Earphones on.
12 You communicate with the witness. You're not allowed to do that.
13 You've done it twice. If it -- no, you earlier communicated with the
14 witness. If you do -- please. One second please, Mr. Mladic. If it
15 happens again, you'll be removed from the courtroom.
16 I do understand that you now want to consult with Mr. Stojanovic.
17 You are allowed to do that. But -- well, I do understand that you want
18 to consult with Mr. Ivetic as well. That's fine. If you do it at any
19 audible volume, there'll be only one consequence, that you'll be removed
20 from the courtroom. So keep your volume down so that everything is
21 inaudible. You have an opportunity to consult with Mr. Ivetic and/or
22 Mr. Stojanovic.
23 [Defence counsel confer]
24 JUDGE ORIE: I still can hear the witness [sic].
25 Mr. Ivetic, I still can hear the accused. He should not speak at
1 an audible level.
2 And since you're now back, I'll now address the witness.
3 Mr. Karisik, would you refrain from seeking eye contact with the
4 accused when you are examined. There is communication which is not only
5 coming from the accused but from you as well. You should refrain from
6 that. You're undermining the value of your own testimony if you continue
7 to do that.
8 Is that clear?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no
10 communication with the accused. I simply cannot look in one direction
11 all the time, so at times I look at the Prosecutor; at times I will look
12 at the Defence, Mr. Ivetic, that is. This has been very long and it's
13 very hard to keep focus. I have no communication with the accused.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Well, we establish that you did. There was eye
15 communication. But apart from that, you may look at whomever you want
16 but not seek eye contact with the Defence and/or the accused.
17 Please proceed.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I have my second topic I would like to get a
19 clarification from you.
20 Ms. Pack, at the beginning of this session, asked you about your
21 knowledge about prisoners taken in Srebrenica, and she put to you what
22 you testified in the Karadzic case.
23 I would like to clarify. As you sit here today, have you any
24 knowledge about prisoners taken in Srebrenica mid-July 1995?
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have no knowledge. I've never
2 been particularly interested in the topic.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is not a question if you were interested. I
4 would like to know if you know anything about prisoners taken in
5 Srebrenica these days in mid-July 1995, because you denied knowledge in
6 the Karadzic case and I would like to know if you today know about that.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My answer is no. What I knew then
8 I know now. Nothing else.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: So I put to you what you said earlier today
10 before the last break.
11 You were asked about forceable removal of civilians from
12 Srebrenica and other events, and then you said:
13 "Today I know that people were taken prisoners, Muslim soldiers
14 were. That I know today."
15 What is true? What you said before the break or what you just
16 said now?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Shall I explain? I know nothing
18 about civilians being taken prisoner. That was the question that I -- I
19 was asked. And as for the troops which were taken prisoners, I confirm
20 that there were prisoners taken, but I know nothing about that.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It is not true that I put a question in relation
22 to civilians. I asked you a minute ago:
23 "As you sit here today, have you any knowledge about prisoners
24 taken in Srebrenica mid-July 1995?"
25 And you said:
1 "I have no knowledge."
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I stand by what I said,
3 officially, no.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: So this is a clear contradiction. Earlier today
5 you said you have information about that, you know about it. Now you say
6 you don't know anything about it. What is true?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That I don't know, that I don't
8 have any information. This is the truth. I may have been misunderstood.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That's clearly on the record.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But you know today, isn't it? You're nodding
11 yes. Is that to be understood as a "yes"?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And what was the question?
13 JUDGE ORIE: Whether you know today about anyone, whomever,
14 Muslim, being taken prisoner in July 1995 in Srebrenica.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I never analysed that.
16 JUDGE ORIE: I didn't ask you whether you analysed it. I didn't
17 ask you whether it was reported to you. I'm asking whether today you
18 know or you are aware that that took place, as you told us earlier today.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, and that's my final answer.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So your earlier answer was not correct.
21 That's hereby on the record.
22 Ms. Pack, you may proceed -- well, you have one or two minutes
23 left. I don't know whether you would like to.
24 MS. PACK: Actually, it would be better, I think, if we could
25 start tomorrow. That would be on the next topic.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 MS. PACK: Thank you.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll adjourn for the day.
4 Witness, we'll adjourn for the day, and I want to instruct you
5 that you should not speak with anyone about your testimony, whether that
6 is testimony you've given today or whether that is testimony still to be
7 given tomorrow, and we'd like to see you back tomorrow morning at 9.30.
8 Is my instruction clear to you?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, absolutely.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Then you may follow the usher.
11 [The witness stands down]
12 MS. PACK: Your Honour, there's the exhibit matter if I can just
13 deal with it in 30 seconds --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you can do that in ten seconds, please do.
15 MS. PACK: Yes. Ten seconds. We've uploaded the excerpts from
16 65 ter 03216 into e-court under 65 ter 03216a, so exhibit number P07215,
17 which was reserved, can now be admitted. Thank you.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And now the number of pages you've uploaded is
20 MS. PACK: Approximately five. I'm instructed.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections, Mr. Ivetic?
22 MR. IVETIC: None at this time.
23 JUDGE ORIE: P7215 reserved for now uploaded 65 ter 03216a is
24 admitted into evidence.
25 We adjourn for the day. We'll resume tomorrow, Tuesday, the 17th
1 of March, 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, I.
2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.17 p.m.,
3 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 17th day of March,
4 2015, at 9.30 a.m.