1 Thursday, 19 March 2015
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.36 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you. And good morning, Your Honours. This
9 is case IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
11 The Chamber was informed that there were no preliminary matters.
12 Therefore, the witness can be escorted in the courtroom.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 [The witness takes the stand]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Masal.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, I'd like to remind that you
18 you're still bound by the solemn declaration that you've given at the
19 beginning of your testimony, that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth
20 and nothing but the truth.
21 Mr. Weber will now continue his cross-examination.
22 Please proceed.
23 MR. WEBER: Good morning. And thank you, Your Honours.
24 WITNESS: DRAGISA MASAL [Resumed]
25 [Witness answered through interpreter]
1 Cross-examination by Mr. Weber: [Continued]
2 Q. Good morning, General Masal.
3 A. Good morning to you too.
4 Q. We are going to continue with where we left off yesterday and
5 discuss activities that occurred between the 13th -- excuse me, the 11th
6 and 13th of February, 1993.
7 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 32181 for
8 the witness.
9 Q. Sir, before you is an ABiH Supreme Command report related to
10 activities on the 11th of February, 1993, so this is the report of your
11 opposing forces.
12 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have page 2 of the
13 English and the bottom of page one in the B/C/S.
14 Q. I'd like to draw your attention to the paragraph in this report
15 related to OG Gorazde. This report indicates: "In OG Gorazde's zone of
16 responsibility, there was artillery fire on almost all populated places
17 as in the preceding days. We do not have information about killed and
18 wounded but material damage is significant."
19 This is what happened pursuant to your order: Populated areas of
20 Gorazde were shelled on the 11th; right?
21 A. Based on this report, we can see that this is the period in
22 question. However, I'm not surprised by this. Their reports were daily
23 reports and they were accompanied by significant propaganda in the sense
24 of major destruction and major casualties.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could you please answer the question.
1 The question is whether that is what happened, that populated
2 places were shelled those days.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, one can see that from the
5 JUDGE ORIE: The question is not whether we can see it from the
6 report. The question is whether it happened. Whether you have any
7 knowledge about it happening.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Based on the document that I was
9 shown yesterday, we could see that there was an order to open artillery
10 fire on certain targets in the Gorazde sector.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But the question now is whether that shelling
12 took place, as described in this report.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I did not receive a
14 report, i.e., I did not have feedback from the command of the 3rd Brigade
15 that that shelling had actually materialised.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Is your answer you don't know?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know whether fire was
19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Weber.
20 MR. WEBER:
21 Q. In the next paragraph, there's discussion of threats to block
22 humanitarian aid convoys and exposing Medjedja to fierce artillery fire
23 unless the demands to release prisoners are met.
24 Your brigades were ordered to fire at Medjedja after this; right?
25 Just to be clear after -- after the 11th/12th of February, 1993.
1 A. I don't understand your question. My brigades were given an
2 order to open fire, but I'm really not sure that I understand your
3 question completely.
4 Q. Okay. Sir, I'm directing your attention to the fact that this
5 report indicates there have been some threats relating to humanitarian
6 convoys in that if these demands were not met, that fire would be opened
7 up on Medjedja.
8 What I'm asking you is that after this time, your brigades were
9 ordered to fire on Medjedja; right?
10 A. I'm not aware of that. I don't know where threats came from or
11 who ordered whom to open fire on Medjedja.
12 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution would tender this document into
13 evidence, 65 ter 32181.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
15 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P7229, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: P7229 is admitted.
17 Please proceed, Mr. Weber.
18 MR. WEBER:
19 Q. Sir, I'm going to go rather quickly through the next two reports
20 with you.
21 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 32302 for
22 the witness.
23 Q. This is a similar report to the one we just looked at but it's
24 from the next day. It's an ABiH Supreme Command report related to
25 activities on 12 February 1993.
1 In the third paragraph, the report states: "In the zones of
2 operations of the Visoko, Igman and Gorazde OG, the aggressor" -- in
3 reference to your forces -- "opened sporadic artillery, tank, mortar, PAT
4 and PAM fire at our positions."
5 Your units did not fire at populated areas of Gorazde on Friday,
6 12th of February, 1992, is that right?
7 A. No, they did not.
8 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution tenders this document into evidence.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
10 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P7230, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: P7230 is admitted.
12 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 32182 for
13 the witness.
14 Q. This is an ABiH report related to the activities on Saturday, 13
15 February 1993. In the -- just confirming where it is.
16 In the fourth paragraph, the report states: "In OG IB Gorazde's
17 zone of responsibility, the aggressor shelled the town of Gorazde and
18 other populated areas in the free territory from the direction of Cajnice
19 and Rogatica."
20 This report reflects that the 3rd Podrinje Brigade in Cajnice who
21 you issued your order to did carry out its orders and fired a
22 concentration of artillery at Gorazde; right?
23 MR. IVETIC: Objection. As it is now mixing and matching what is
24 contained in the order that was discussed yesterday and what is contained
25 in this document. I believe in the order yesterday Mr. Weber focussed on
1 the fire on the market-place.
2 JUDGE ORIE: It's clear, Mr. -- could you please -- it was a
3 compound question anyhow. Could you please split it up.
4 MR. WEBER: Sure.
5 Q. I'll just make it really simple. This -- this information shows
6 that your units fired again in populated areas of Gorazde; right?
7 A. I'm not ruling this out, but I was not aware of every activity of
8 my subordinated units.
9 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution would tender this document into
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
12 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P7231.
13 JUDGE ORIE: P7231 is admitted.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I just get some clarification, sir.
15 When you say you are not aware of what your subordinates did and
16 you don't know whether they carried out your order, are you trying to
17 tell this Chamber that you were playing marbles? You would just give an
18 order and you don't care whether it was carried out? You don't follow
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, certainly not. I believe that
21 we were serious and we would not have been playing marbles. Every order
22 that was issued to a subordinated command had to be followed by a regular
23 combat report on tasks accomplished. I told you that it was just
24 possible that that's what had happened. I don't know whether the
25 following day a regular --
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... you have
2 answered me. You say you were not playing.
3 Now, in -- what you are telling me about reports is my next
4 question. Now, of the system within your command and control was that
5 subordinate orders -- subordinated units give a report to their superiors
6 about the carrying-out of orders that they were given.
7 Are you telling this Court that you never received such a report.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, this is not what I'm saying.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... a report. If
10 that's not what you are saying. Did you receive the report.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I received reports from
12 subordinated commands every day.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: And what did the reports say about the
14 activities -- the order that you gave for attack on the 13th of July?
15 MR. WEBER: Sorry, Your Honour, to correct you. But it's 13
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: 13 February, I'm sorry.
18 What report did you get about that?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was just going to say a daily
20 combat report of a unit -- I can't remember what was reported on that
21 day. I can't remember that part of the report which concerns that
22 particular task. It eludes me.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which part of that report do you remember?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember that report at
25 all. The document that was shown to me by the Prosecutor here is
1 something that covers an event 20 years ago, and I don't remember that
2 combat report.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sir, you have voluntarily come here to testify
4 about events that happened 20 years ago, okay? So we're asking about
5 those events, and you have told us here of things that you remember that
6 happened 20 years ago. That's why you wrote a statement and we're still
7 asking you about the same things, okay?
8 Now, what part of that report do you remember? You say you don't
9 remember this part. What part do you remember?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've answered. I don't remember
11 the report that I received on that day. I don't remember a host --
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're changing your answer. That's fine. Thank
13 you very much. Mr. Weber.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Weber.
15 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I'm going to change topics. I don't
16 know if you have any other questions related to the event.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Please continue.
18 MR. WEBER:
19 Q. Your brigades were ordered to target schools and mosques also;
21 A. I don't know anything about that.
22 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 32183 for
23 the witness.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Say the number again.
25 MR. WEBER: 65 ter 32183.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] Thank you.
2 MR. WEBER:
3 Q. This is an 8 March 1993 order from your deputy commander,
4 Colonel Parezanin. It orders the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Podrinje Brigades to
5 fire five to seven rounds at targets that are then specified.
6 The areas listed in this order were all inhabited by non-Serbs;
8 A. Largely Muslims, yes.
9 Q. One of the locations where the 2nd Podrinje Brigade is ordered to
10 fire is the school in Medjedja. In fact, your unit -- your brigades were
11 ordered to fire at schools; right? We see this in the order?
12 A. This was signed by my deputy. I wouldn't wish to comment upon
14 Q. Well, sir, your command issued this order to fire at Medjedja
15 after demands to release prisoners were not met. This is what happened;
17 A. I don't know whether this had to do anything with the request to
18 set prisoners free. You are establishing that link, but I can't. I
19 can't establish that link.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, apart from establishing links, were orders
21 given to shell or to give artillery support aiming at the school in
22 Medjedja? If you remember, tell us; if you say, I don't know, tell us as
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know because --
25 JUDGE ORIE: You don't have to explain why you don't know. You
1 don't know.
2 Please proceed, Mr. Weber.
3 MR. WEBER:
4 Q. The 3rd Podrinje Brigade from Cajnice is ordered to fire at the
5 mosque in Gorazde. This is the same brigade that you ordered to fire
6 upon the market; right?
7 A. I issued an order to open fire on the market sector. I did not
8 issue this order.
9 Q. That wasn't my question, sir. My question was: This was the
10 same brigade for whom you issued the previous order; right?
11 A. It's the same brigade. It hasn't changed.
12 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution tenders this document into evidence.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P7232, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Is admitted into evidence.
16 Witness, a question that was not yet asked to you. Do you have
17 any knowledge about this order to fire on the mosque in Gorazde? If so,
18 please tell us what you know; if you don't know, please tell us as well.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
21 Please proceed.
22 [Prosecution counsel confer]
23 MR. WEBER: Thank you for your patience, Your Honours, I was just
24 checking something.
25 Q. I'd like to move on and discuss with you Operation Mac.
1 Operation Mac 1 was carried out at the end of May and beginning of
2 June 1993; right.
3 A. Yes.
4 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P5173 for
5 the witness.
6 Q. This is the 22 May 1993 VRS Main Staff order for Operation Mac
7 from General Mladic.
8 For the Chamber's reference, the code name of the operation is on
9 the last page above the signature.
10 We see that the order was sent to the Drina Corps and to the
11 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, SRK. Is this correct that Operation Mac was a
12 joint operation between these two corps?
13 A. It was an operation of the Drina Corps with part of the forces,
14 just part of the forces that were resubordinated to the Drina Corps and
15 the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.
16 Q. Directing your attention to item 2 where General Mladic states:
17 "The task of the Army of RS is to carry out offensive operations and
18 ocisti in Central Podrinje, disperse and destroy Muslim forces in the
19 general area of Gorazde and enable the Muslim civilians to move away
20 (relocate) to other areas (central part of the former BH) or to accept
21 the" --
22 MR. WEBER: And if we could have the next page of the
23 translation. Thank you.
24 Q. "... or to accept the authority of Republika Srpska and thus
25 create the conditions for the return of the Serbian population to the
1 left and right banks of the Drina River."
2 This task is a reflection of the VRS position on civilians;
4 A. That is the position towards the civilian population.
5 Q. Now, according to this order, this operation was to take place in
6 two stages lasting eight to ten days with the first stage lasting five to
7 six days. General Mladic ordered that the operation was to begin no
8 later than 27 May 1993. This is when Operation Mac was executed by the
9 Drina Corps and the SRK, between the 27th of May and approximately 5
10 June 1993; right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. During this time, your brigades carried out the task assigned by
13 General Mladic.
14 A. I got the order from the command of the Drina Corps, and I myself
15 issued tasks to the brigades.
16 Q. During the course of this operation, your brigades, again,
17 shelled the town of Gorazde; right?
18 A. The plan of activity of artillery of the brigades in this
19 operation is something that I did not have an opportunity to see
20 personally. I commanded and controlled part of the operation in my area
21 of responsibility, so as for these details, whether the town of Gorazde
22 was shelled, I cannot say anything to you about that with any certainty.
23 Q. Are you really saying as a person with a significant amount of
24 artillery experience and the commander in the zone of responsibility of
25 Gorazde that you're not aware --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic is speaking aloud, which he's not
2 supposed to do. And also no nodding to witnesses or to anyone else,
3 Mr. Mladic. Just focus on the case.
4 Please proceed.
5 Mr. Mladic, no speaking aloud.
6 Please proceed.
7 MR. WEBER: All right. Your Honours, actually I'm just going to
8 go to the document. Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 32235 for
9 the witness.
10 Q. This is a 31 May 1993 article from the Los Angeles Times
11 entitled: "Pounding of Sarajevo most brutal in months; Balkans; shelling
12 of capital seems to underscore ineffectiveness of west's latest BiH peace
14 I'd like to direct your attention to the third paragraph of the
15 article. The article reports:
16 "One of the other proposed safe areas, the eastern city of
17 Gorazde, has been pounded for three days by an even more intense
18 artillery assault, and the Serbian attackers were reported to have broken
19 through the beleaguered enclave's last line of defence?
20 "Government-controlled Sarajevo Radio said the rebels overran
21 Gorazde after inflicting heavy casualties in a salt that rained more than
22 1.000 shells on the town the previous day. Thousands were attempting to
23 flee the city, the broadcast reported. It also said 11 soldiers had been
24 killed and 34 wounded."
25 This was how Operation Mac was carried out; right?
1 A. No.
2 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have page 2 of both
4 Q. On this page, there's information provided by
5 Commander Barry Frewer who is an UNPROFOR spokesperson he reported that
6 UN Military Observers had tried to reach Gorazde three times to assess
7 the situation but were turned back by Serbian gunmen.
8 This information shows that your units were still continuing to
9 deny entry into Gorazde from international organisations; right? That's
10 what we see here?
11 A. This is certainly correct because during intensive combat
12 operations in the zone of responsibility, such convoys were not allowed
13 to move about in the area.
14 Allow me just one sentence. Operation Mac on this date, units
15 were 35 kilometres away from Gorazde. At the very end of the operation,
16 we had just reached Ustiprace which is 12 kilometres away from Gorazde,
17 and it was on that line that Operation Mac ended. You can see on the
18 basis of this document and propaganda that the town of Gorazde had
19 purportedly been taken.
20 Q. With respect to Sarajevo, I just want to ask you about this
21 before we move on, Commander Frewer said that during a 17-hour period
22 that included the dawn battle, UN Military Observers in the capital
23 counted 310 mortar and heavy artillery impacts, presumably of shells
24 fired from Serbian positions, in the government-held city centre and
25 three blasts in Serb-held areas.
1 The Sarajevo-Romanija Corps was shelling the city of Sarajevo
2 during the course of Operation Mac. You're aware of that; right?
3 MR. IVETIC: Objection. Goes beyond --
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
5 MR. IVETIC: Goes beyond the scope of the direct examination.
7 JUDGE ORIE: But isn't it true that in cross-examination you
8 can -- it's not limited to --
9 MR. IVETIC: Then he has to lay foundation, doesn't he?
10 JUDGE ORIE: No. That's not what the rules require. Only if the
11 witness gives answers which are not in line with the case of the
12 Prosecution, then the Prosecution should put to the witness what their
13 case is. That's the rule. Nothing else.
14 Let's -- I have a question, but the witness has answered the
15 question anyhow. So I take it, Mr. Ivetic, there's no problem there
17 MR. WEBER: Your Honours --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask one question.
19 MR. WEBER: Just before we move on to something or your question,
20 I just wanted to put on the record that the basis of my questions related
21 to Operation Mac is the fact that he comments on the order as part of his
22 statement as an associated exhibits. So it's in that context I am also
23 asking about it.
24 JUDGE ORIE: You would say that basis for the objection wasn't
25 there, and I commented, rather, on the rule that apparently was invoked
1 by Mr. Ivetic. And the witness said he didn't know.
2 Now I have -- Witness, you said, and we're looking at this
3 document only briefly now, so perhaps you could assist us. You said you
4 can see from this document and propaganda that was -- that Gorazde was
5 purportedly taken.
6 Now, could you help me where exactly that is stated in this
7 article? That Gorazde was taken, where you said that you went only to
8 12 kilometres of that town.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, it was the gentleman,
10 the Prosecutor, that read that out from this document.
11 JUDGE ORIE: That the town of Gorazde was taken? Was that read
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes. That was read out,
14 that Radio Sarajevo or Radio Gorazde, I'm sorry. The gentleman, the
15 Prosecutor read that out.
16 MR. WEBER: I do not know if the witness is getting it from the
17 phrase --
18 MR. IVETIC: Transcript, page 14.
19 MR. WEBER: [Overlapping speakers] ...
20 MR. IVETIC: Transcript page 14, line 19.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Line 19.
22 Is that what the witness said, isn't it? You can see on the
23 basis of that document and propaganda that the town of Gorazde had
24 purportedly taken. That was the last line of the witness, not of what
25 Mr. Weber read.
1 MR. IVETIC: Line 19, page 13. 19 and 20, page 13, Mr. Weber's
3 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then ...
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE ORIE: But let me then see.
6 Oh, that's rebels overrunning Gorazde, yes. Now I see. Yes, I
7 may have misunderstood that the beginning, apparently it's interpreted by
8 the witness and by you as well, Mr. Ivetic, that overran Gorazde is
9 taking -- is equal to taking the city but let's leave it to that.
10 Whereas the witness told us that they only moved from 35 kilometres of
11 Gorazde to as close as 12 kilometres to the town of Gorazde. Whereas
12 earlier yesterday the witness made a distinction between the town of
13 Gorazde and the Gorazde area. Let's leave it to that.
14 Please proceed.
15 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution would tender the document.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
17 MR. IVETIC: Just one moment, Your Honours. I'm told that the
18 B/C/S version of this document in the specific part actually says
19 captured Gorazde as well, so I don't know if that's something that we
20 should address to CLSS or what the --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if we need to verify the translation into --
22 into B/C/S -- apart from what was read to the witness, I don't know
23 whether it was translated in a similar, as you suggest, way.
24 MR. IVETIC: I don't know either so ...
25 JUDGE ORIE: That can be verified. First, the translation can be
1 verified. Second, the interpretation, if there's any need, can be
2 verified as well.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And I think there's an additional problem when we
4 look at the original of this document which is B/C/S this is a
5 translation from a Los Angeles Times article. This is a transcript of an
6 article in the Los Angeles Times and that is -- if I understood that
7 correctly, again translated into English in this document. Oh, what is
8 the original.
9 MR. WEBER: [Overlapping speakers] ...
10 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... in e-court --
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I was asking Mr. Weber.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But I -- okay. Let Mr. Weber answer.
13 MR. WEBER: The original is in English that we then requested a
14 translation in B/C/S.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. In e-court, it appears as M001-3077 is the
17 original, which is in the English language indeed. Whereas,
18 M001-3077-B/C/S is then the translation.
19 Mr. Weber, will you take care that the translation will be
20 verified, whether, in the B/C/S, it is translated that the town or
21 Gorazde - I do not know yet - was captured.
22 Meanwhile the document will be MFI'd.
23 Mr. Registrar.
24 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI P7233, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: And we hear from you, Mr. Weber.
1 Please proceed.
2 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honours.
3 Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 03422 for the witness.
4 Page 2 in both versions.
5 Q. This is a 4 June 1993 UNPROFOR report from General Morillon
6 regarding a meeting he had with Radovan Karadzic on 3rd of June.
7 The first paragraph states: "There is evidence to indicate that
8 Serb forces continue to press an attack against BiH positions around
9 Gorazde. There has also been a consistent refusal by the Serb military
10 leadership to allow UNMOs into the area."
11 There are then references to three incidents that occurred on the
12 1st of June, 1993, including a shelling in Dobrinja, and the sniping of
13 two French soldiers at the airport in Sarajevo.
14 The second paragraph starts: "I drew Karadzic's attention to the
15 fact that his actions in Gorazde had violated the sanctuary of an
16 UN-declared safe area."
17 Sir, you were aware that Gorazde was a declared safe area at the
18 time of Operation Mac; right?
19 A. Yes. I knew that it was declared a safe area, but the activities
20 concerning the safe area were not completed fully.
21 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution tenders the document into evidence.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
23 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P7234, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
25 [Prosecution counsel confer]
1 MR. WEBER: Maybe we can just address a brief matter before the
3 Q. Sir, I see you still have a copy of your statement in front of
4 you. If there's any way you could please turn to paragraph 15 and I'll
5 ask you some questions on it.
6 In paragraph 15 of your statement, you state: "I have never
7 personally observed any civilians accepting the invitation to remain in
8 any liberated territory while respecting the laws of the RS."
9 This is because the non-Serb civilians left as a consequence of
10 VRS operations; right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. In another part of the same paragraph, you say: "There were some
13 ethnically pure Muslim villages between Visegrad and Rogatica, such as
14 Satorovici, Osovo, Okruglo and Burati."
15 You then go on to indicate that the Muslim residents lived in
16 these areas which were controlled by the VRS up until the
17 Dayton Agreement was signed. Then you claimed they moved out of their
18 own free will.
19 I want to seek a clarification with you about the date that you
20 referred here. That date is not accurate in terms of when they moved
21 out. And, in fact, the Muslim villagers in these areas moved out by the
22 second half of 1994; right?
23 A. I don't know whether the residents of these villages moved out in
24 that period of time. Part of them did, as far as I was informed. Now
25 whether entire villages moved out, that I don't know.
1 Q. Let's look at what you said in your previous testimony. Sir, I'm
2 going to call up your Popovic testimony.
3 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 32310,
4 page 21.
5 JUDGE ORIE: But before we further look at that --
6 Witness, you said you don't know whether they stayed there until
7 the Dayton Agreement. But that's what we find in your statement, isn't
8 it, where it reads, they were: "Until the Dayton Agreement was signed,
9 they remained in this area which was then under the control of the VRS
10 until the Dayton Agreement was signed, and then moved out of their own
11 free will."
12 And now you're telling us that you don't know whether they stayed
13 there, remained until the Dayton Agreement was signed.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I received information that most of
15 the inhabitants stayed on until the Dayton Agreement because in mid-1994
16 I left that area. I just received information that part of the
17 population or, rather, the majority of the population of these four
18 villages stayed on in these villages.
19 JUDGE ORIE: So what you should have done under those
20 circumstances, to make a clear distinction between what you know on the
21 basis of your personal observations, which apparently, from mid-1994, was
22 not the case any further, and, second, that the information received was
23 not that they remained but that most of them remained. So your statement
24 to which you attested is inaccurate in that respect.
25 Please proceed, Mr. Weber.
1 MR. WEBER:
2 Q. General Masal, I'm actually going to read out your whole previous
3 answer on this topic from the Popovic case.
4 MR. WEBER: If we could have the bottom of the page.
5 Q. In response to a question, you stated: "In my area from the very
6 beginning of the war until nearly the end of the war there were four
7 villages which were purely Muslim, according to their ethnicity, this was
8 between Visegrad and Rogatica. They belonged to Rogatica municipality
9 and these villages were" -- and if we could please have the next page.
10 "Satorovici, Osovo, Okruglo and Burati. That population remained
11 living on the territory controlled by the Army of Republika Srpska and
12 under the Serbian civilian authorities. A large influence was exerted on
13 them to remain by a retired general of the former JNA, Asim Hodzic, who
14 was advanced in years; but when combat began in Bosnia-Herzegovina, he
15 was living in the village of Satorovici. As he was in poor health, I had
16 occasion to meet him personally when he was being transported from
17 Rogatica via Visegrad and Uzice to Belgrade at the military medical
18 academy. The population in these villages remained peaceful, and they
19 lived there until the second half of 1994 peacefully. Then they moved
20 away probably in the direction of Sarajevo or somewhere in
21 Central Bosnia."
22 Do you stand by your previous testimony?
23 MR. IVETIC: Objection. To be fair, if you're going to broach
24 that topic you should read the entirety of the testimony on transcript --
25 JUDGE ORIE: One second.
1 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I do not know what you're going to refer to. If it
3 is a matter which can you raise in re-examination, then you should do so.
4 If it really is unfair -- incomplete is not for parties necessarily under
5 all circumstances, unfair. So please carefully look at what you want to
6 add and see whether that can be appropriately done in re-examination
7 rather than to intervene in the line of questioning of the
9 I leave it to you, Mr. Ivetic, to carefully think about it and to
10 see whether it can be done or whether it should not wait until
12 MR. IVETIC: Well, Your Honours, I don't know if Mr. Weber is
13 aware of transcript page 29155 --
14 JUDGE ORIE: That's good.
15 MR. IVETIC: Prosecution's questioning, so --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, could you please look at the source given
17 by Mr. Ivetic and then you decide whether it's better to include it now
18 or to leave it to Mr. Ivetic to raise it in re-examination.
19 [Prosecution counsel confer]
20 MR. IVETIC: And I can assist further, it's lines 1 through 10 so
21 you don't have to read the whole page.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, is it right that that was in
23 re-examination in that case as well, so apparently it's a matter that can
24 be raised in re-examination?
25 MR. IVETIC: No, it was in cross-examination by the Prosecution,
1 Your Honours.
2 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I think that it is something that
3 Mr. Ivetic would be free to lead. The main fact I'm going after is just
4 his previous statement that he said that they had left in the second half
5 of 1994.
6 JUDGE ORIE: You are aware that Mr. Ivetic will -- is in a
7 position perhaps to draw the attention of the witness to other parts of
8 his testimony in that case.
9 Let's proceed.
10 MR. WEBER:
11 Q. Sir, do you stand by your previous testimony?
12 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please answer that question whether what
13 was just read to you as your previous testimony, whether you stand by
15 A. I believe that this was an oversight on my part, that instead of
16 1995, I said 1994 in my previous testimony.
17 JUDGE ORIE: And is that -- was that an error or was it ... I
18 mean, it's not entirely clear to me. Do you say you made a mistake in
19 the testimony that was read to you, or did you make a mistake today?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The mistake was made in my previous
21 testimony. I suppose that I meant the end of 1995 and it seems it turned
22 out that it was -- the end of 1994. Because the end of 1995 is the end
23 of the war. In the introduction to this answer in my previous testimony,
24 I said at the end of the war, and then when I mentioned the year I stated
25 that it was in 1994.
1 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I see we're at the time for the break.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll take the break.
3 Witness, would you please follow the usher. We would like to see
4 you back in 20 minutes.
5 [The witness stands down]
6 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at five minutes to 11.00.
7 --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.
8 --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 [The witness takes the stand]
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, if you're ready, please proceed.
12 MR. WEBER: Yes, Your Honours.
13 Q. General Masal, you are familiar with the Strpci abduction which
14 occurred on 27 February 1993 where a group of armed persons took Muslim
15 passengers off a train and these passengers were never seen again.
16 You're familiar with this event; right?
17 A. Yes, I heard about that.
18 Q. The Belgrade-Bar railway line ran through your zone of
19 responsibility at the time; correct?
20 A. Yes, for some 12 kilometres or so.
21 Q. This railway line also runs through Sandzak, a border region
22 between Serbia and Montenegro; correct?
23 A. No, Sandzak is not a border region between Serbia and Montenegro.
24 It is a part of Serbia.
25 Q. The railway line runs through Sandzak; right?
1 A. Along its border. Only along its border.
2 Q. The Strpci train station, which is where the abduction occurred,
3 was located in the municipality of Rudo; right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. There was a plan to be abduct passengers from the train prior to
6 the 27th of February; correct?
7 A. No.
8 Q. The abduction was carried out pursuant to your orders; right?
9 A. No.
10 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 32202 for
11 the witness.
12 Q. I'm actually going to go through a number of materials related to
13 this event today.
14 This is a -- this is the first one. It is a 1 February 1993
15 letter from the director of defence preparations for the public railway
16 transport company in Belgrade to the general director of the company.
17 The first paragraph states: "A few days ago, more precisely on
18 28 January 1993, I was informed by the head of the Uzice STP section,
19 Zivanic that members in of the Serbian army in Rudo municipality will
20 stop a train and abduct its passengers. The entire operation is to take
21 place on the section of the Belgrade-Bar railway line running through
22 Bosnia and Herzegovina, most likely at the Strpci junction or the Goles
23 railway station."
24 So in fact there was plan to be abduct passengers either from
25 Strpci or Goles prior to 27 February. That's the case right?
1 A. There was no plan in place. At least as far as my command is
2 concerned and my brigade commands.
3 Q. In the next section of the letter, it indicates that the
4 collegium of the railway line, the police, and the State Security Service
5 of the Serbian MUP and the assistant defence minister of Serbia were
6 contacted. Did any of these people bring up any concerns with you or
7 your superior commands about a plan to be abduct passengers from the
9 A. No, nobody brought it up with me. I don't know if any of my
10 higher-ranking officers had any conversations with the officials you have
11 just -- that just mentioned. At least they never informed me about that.
12 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution tenders this document into evidence.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
14 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P7235, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: P7235 is admitted.
16 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 32204 for
17 the witness.
18 Q. This is a 21 February 1993 TG Visegrad order to the 1st, 2nd,
19 4th, and 5th Podrinje Brigades. You issued this order; right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. The order starts: "Pursuant to a request from the Supreme
22 Commander of the Army of Republika Srpska ..."
23 That's referring to a request from Radovan Karadzic which you
24 received through your chain of command; right?
25 A. Yes.
1 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have page 2 of the
2 English translation.
3 Q. Under number 4, you ordered: "Immediately inform us of any
4 captured Muslims, who are from the territory of Sandzak, and should you
5 not have any, organize and carry out an action with the objective of
6 capturing them."
7 You ordered your units to capture Muslims from Sandzak if they
8 did not have any; right?
9 A. I did order, but I did not order them to capture civilians but,
10 rather, Muslims who often travelled from Sandzak through my zone of
11 responsibility in the direction of Gorazde and Sarajevo. This has
12 nothing to do with civilians.
13 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution tenders this document into evidence.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P7236, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Is admitted into evidence.
17 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P6652 for
18 the witness.
19 Q. This is a 22 February 1993 report from the 2nd Podrinje Brigade
20 Command, one of the brigades that you sent the order to the day before.
21 This report is sent to your command and states: "There are no
22 paramilitary formations or groups in our brigade combat activity zone.
23 It should be noticed that there are groups under the brigade command that
24 use the names that could remind you of the paramilitary groups Osvetnik,
25 Garavi, Skakavci, and similar.
1 "All these groups are respecting our brigade command, carrying
2 out its tasks and make the part of the intervention company."
3 You were aware of the information in this report; right? It's to
4 your command.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. In fact, you reported this information to the Drina Corps
7 Command; right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. The commander of the group known as the Garavi was Boban Indjic;
11 MR. IVETIC: Objection. Is a question that needs to be specified
12 which of the groups, as I understand this document there are two groups
13 that have that name. Which group is Mr. Weber's question directed at?
14 Without -- without -- without -- I can't go any further with the witness
15 present to endanger --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Why couldn't the witness answer the question and you
17 further specify if there's any chance of any confusion, then you could
18 repair that during re-examination. Isn't it?
19 Let the witness answer the question.
20 MR. IVETIC: The document talks of two groups and mentioned just
21 one group.
22 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please.
23 MR. IVETIC: [Overlapping speakers] ...
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Ivetic, Mr. Weber referred to one of the
25 groups directly.
1 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours are misunderstanding my objection.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Let's --
3 Witness, do you understand English, the English language?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Not a word? Apart from yes or no perhaps.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Could you take off your earphones, please.
8 Mr. Ivetic, the question put by Mr. Weber was whether the
9 commander of the group known as Garavi was Boban Indjic. And I see that
10 in the document reference is made to the groups that used the names that
11 could remind you of paramilitary groups, among them Garavi.
12 MR. IVETIC: Of the paramilitary groups.
13 JUDGE ORIE: I beg your pardon.
14 MR. IVETIC: Of the paramilitary groups. You missed the "the,"
15 which implies that there's a group in the army with that name, and a
16 paramilitary group with that same name, which group is the question
17 directed --
18 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... whether the one implies
19 the other.
20 MR. IVETIC: In the English it does, Your Honour. That's the
21 plain meaning of the English text.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Let me read.
23 Is that your understanding of the English text? My understanding
24 of the English text is, and I give it to you so that you can comment on
25 it. That it should be noticed that there are groups under the brigade
1 command that use the names that could remind us of the paramilitary
2 groups and then they are listed, paramilitary groups by the name
3 Osvetnik, Garavi, Skakavci and similar. So it's not a limited list.
4 I do understand this to mean that within the brigade command
5 groups are active which remind of paramilitary groups of the same name.
6 It doesn't give any -- doesn't give any clue as to whether those
7 paramilitary groups do still exist or do not exist or whether it's the
8 same group that now is within the brigade command still using the name it
9 used earlier. That's all open, isn't it?
10 MR. IVETIC: That is open and --
11 JUDGE ORIE: And therefore now Mr. Weber asks the witness whether
12 the commander of the group known as Garavi - and that could be one or
13 more groups and that's still open - whether that was Boban Indjic.
14 Now, first of all, if the witness is aware of more than one
15 group, then he will tell us. Then he will -- may not understand the
16 question. And if he answers the question, you could still further
17 explore that, whether he was referring to the group within the brigade
18 command or whether he was referring to the paramilitary group that you
19 could think of that had existed. That can also be further explored, but
20 there's no need at this moment in view of the questions, which are still
21 open, to hint at the possibility that both groups, the one within the
22 brigade command and the one the names reminds us of, whether they were
23 still in existence. That can be further explored.
24 The witness can answer the question.
25 Can you please put on your earphones again.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, the question was put to you - and I'll
3 re-read the question to you - I'll read the ... whether the commander of
4 the group known as the Garavi was Boban Indjic.
5 Can you tell us whether that was the name of the commander of the
6 group known as the Garavi.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I know that
8 Boban Indjic was the commander of the intervention company. This is the
9 first time I hear that he was the commander of a group that called itself
10 this way. From the moment I joined the tactical group until the end of
11 my stay with the tactical group, Boban Indjic was the commander of the
12 intervention company.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Weber.
14 MR. WEBER:
15 Q. Milan Lukic was the commander of the group that was called the
16 Osvetnik; right?
17 A. I wouldn't know that.
18 Q. Okay.
19 JUDGE ORIE: For the previous question, Witness, you told us that
20 you were familiar with the name of the person. Milan Lukic, are you
21 familiar with his name as well?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] During the war, I had only two
23 occasions to meet with Milan Lukic.
24 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... so you're
25 familiar with the person by that name.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I know him.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Weber.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
4 MR. WEBER:
5 Q. Now, sir, during the abduction of the passengers from Strpci,
6 there were eight Muslim individuals that were taken from the train that
7 were from the Sandzak region. That's what happened; right.
8 A. I learnt that.
9 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 32205 for
10 the witness.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I just get clarification before you go to this
12 next document, sir.
13 MR. WEBER: Sir.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Weber, at page 29, line 3, you asked the
15 witness whether -- I beg pardon, page 28, line 5. You said, "In fact,
16 you reported this information to the Drina Corps Command; right?"
17 And the witness answered yes, and you were talking about this
18 document which has these paramilitary groups?
19 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, if I could revisit that after going
20 through this next document.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. If you revisit it, that's fine.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
23 MR. WEBER:
24 Q. This is a 28 February 1993 - so a day after the abduction -
25 Drina Corps security and intelligence report from Jovo Maric to the VRS
1 Main Staff. The report relates to the Strpci abduction which is
2 discussed in the first two paragraphs and, as you see, there's reference
3 in the second paragraph to Boban Indjic, leader of the Garavi Sokak armed
5 In the third paragraph, if we could scroll down, and maybe if we
6 could actually enlarge it a little bit for the witness, if it's possible,
7 the report states: "The Garavi Sokak group operated, along with other
8 similar ones, as a paramilitary; however, according to the latest report
9 from Colonel Dragisa Masal, commander of the TG Visegrad, the said Masal
10 claims that these groups are in the formation of the 2nd plpbr
11 intervention company and ... they respect and carry out the orders of
12 their command. In addition to the cited persons, Milan Lukic was also
13 involved in the abduction, who is known from before as an extremist."
14 This is the information that you reported to the Drina Corps
15 Command; right?
16 A. No, this is not my report.
17 JUDGE ORIE: That wasn't the question, Witness. The question was
18 whether you reported to the Drina Corps Command as is described in this
19 document, which there's no suggestion that this is your report.
20 Could you please answer the question that was put to you?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't. My command did not send
22 a report to the Drina Corps.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Again, it's not whether you sent a report but
24 whether you reported. There are various ways of reporting something.
25 Was what was in this document recorded as what was reported by you to the
1 corps command, did you ever report, in whatever way, that information to
2 the Drina Corps Command?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In an oral conversation with the
4 commander of the Drina Corps, I informed the commander, Zivanovic, about
5 the event in so much as I knew based on the information received from the
6 command of the 2nd Brigade.
7 JUDGE ORIE: The question again is what was -- did you, in that
8 conversation, or at any other point in time that these groups are in the
9 formation of the 2nd plpbr intervention company and whether they respect
10 and carry out the orders of their command.
11 Was that done?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I said that within the
13 intervention company there were groups under those names.
14 JUDGE ORIE: And did you also tell them that they were carrying
15 out orders of their command?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: So your previous answers were pretty evasive, in
18 view of what you're telling us now: I did not send a report. That
19 wasn't asked. You, in a conversation, gave this information to the corps
20 command, if I understand you well.
21 Please proceed, Mr. Weber.
22 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution tenders 65 ter 32205 into evidence.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P7237, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
1 MR. WEBER:
2 Q. General Masal, I'm going to change topics again and go onto
3 another matter.
4 During your time as the commander of TG Visegrad, you kept
5 imprisoned civilians in your zone of responsibility; right?
6 A. From the time when I took this position, there were no civilians
7 in prison.
8 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 09716 for
9 the witness.
10 Q. This is a 7 October 1993 TG Visegrad report from you to the
11 Drina Corps Command. This document relates a -- relates to a request of
12 the UK command intelligence organ. Is it that the UK refers to the Uzice
13 Corps of the Yugoslav, or VJ, army?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. The Uzice Corps and the Drina Corps co-ordinated with respect to
16 matters of security and intelligence; right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. The first part of the report indicates that the UK Command is
19 requesting delivery of an imprisoned civilian who was being held in Rudo
20 at the time.
21 In item 2, you state: "The said imprisoned civilian was captured
22 during a raid in Herceg Novi where, according to the UK OB's allegation,
23 he had been staying since the start of the war (fled from Gorazde)."
24 In item 3, you go on to state: "He was brought to the prison in
25 Rudo from the prison in Foca in order to be exchanged for our citizens
1 who have not left Gorazde."
2 What you told us a moment ago is not true. The fact is you kept
3 imprisoned civilians in your zone of responsibility; right?
4 A. I don't know about this case, and with full responsibility, I can
5 assert that this is the first time I hear of this. Who signed that
6 report instead of me, I cannot say right now, but I state with full
7 responsibility that I was not aware of this case at all.
8 Q. How were civilians were being brought to the Foca prison from
9 Herceg Novi?
10 A. I don't know.
11 Q. The prison in Foca was the KP Dom that you're referring to;
13 A. I just heard that. I never checked that. I was never there.
14 Q. So you just heard that. You heard that from your subordinate
15 commands; right?
16 A. Foca is not in my area of responsibility.
17 Q. You heard that from your superior commands; right?
18 A. Nobody had any need to tell me that the prison in Foca is the KP
19 Dom. I heard that existed before the war, the KP Dom.
20 Q. What prison in Rudo are you referring to in this document?
21 MR. IVETIC: Objection. Misstates the testimony of this witness.
22 He said that he had not signed this document so to call it "what you are
23 referring to" is a misstatement of the evidence on record.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
25 MR. WEBER:
1 Q. In the report that's under your name it refers to a prison in
2 Rudo. What prison is this?
3 A. The brigade did not have a prison. That can only be a prison
4 within the MUP.
5 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution tenders this document into evidence.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P7238, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: P7238 is admitted into evidence.
9 Mr. Weber, if you would allow me, I would like to go briefly back
10 to the Garavi group and put an additional question to the witness.
11 Witness, you told us that you, in a conversation, you had
12 informed the -- that groups under the names that were mentioned were
13 within your brigade and that they were carrying out orders of their
15 Now, one of these groups was the Garavi. Who was at the head of
16 that group?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know. Since
18 these are lower levels of command, this is probably a soldier. I could
19 not have known all the soldiers within the tactical group.
20 JUDGE ORIE: No. But apparently you were aware of the existence
21 of those groups which are known by those names. But you had no idea
22 that -- yes.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I knew on the basis of the
24 information that I received from the intelligence organ of the
25 2nd Brigade.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And they told you the names of the groups but
2 not who were in those groups.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I wasn't interested in that.
4 MR. IVETIC: And, Your Honours, just for clarification, we were
5 shown that document before. I don't know the number recorded, but we did
6 have that before us. I think it was P6652.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm ...
8 So you were familiar with the existence of a group under that
9 name in the intervention company but you had no idea who was leading that
10 group, if I understand you well?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
13 MR. WEBER:
14 Q. In the area of Visegrad, the 2nd Podrinje Brigade secured the
15 Uzamnice prison facility; right?
16 A. Yes.
17 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 32208 for
18 the witness. Actually, excuse me, strike that. I think actually the
19 last answer will be sufficient.
20 Q. Sir, is it correct that prisoners were beaten at Uzamnice?
21 A. When I arrived in Visegrad, I heard that Milan Lukic had
22 mistreated detained persons, but I personally never established that and
23 I was never able to establish that. I just had information that there
24 had been mistreatment.
25 Q. Okay. Who did you receive this information from?
1 A. The subordinate commander.
2 Q. You received it from Luka Dragicevic, commander of the
3 2nd Podrinje Brigade?
4 A. Yes, yes, the commander.
5 Q. You're acknowledging he's the commander. That's the person you
6 received the information from?
7 A. I did not quite understand. I admit that Luka Dragicevic was the
8 commander of the brigade, yes. I think that at one moment I heard that
9 you mentioned Lukic?
10 Q. Actually, sir, I just asked you if prisoners were beaten at
11 Uzamnice. You then offered Milan Lukic as a name of a person who had
12 mistreated detained persons and you said: I just had that information
13 that they had been mistreated. I asked you simply who did you receive
14 this information from, and you said: The subordinate commander. The
15 subordinate commander who told you this information was Luka Dragicevic;
17 A. At one moment, it seemed to me that you said Lukic Dragicevic.
18 JUDGE ORIE: If you just answer the last question, whether the
19 subordinate commander who told you this information, whether that was
20 Luka Dragicevic, I think if you could answer that question, we can then
21 move on.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Weber.
24 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 32207 for
25 the witness.
1 JUDGE ORIE: We're still with the same subject, Mr. Weber?
2 MR. WEBER: Correct.
3 Q. This is a 2 April 1993 TG Visegrad list of imprisoned persons who
4 are located in the 2nd Podrinje Brigade's prison. This is a list that
5 you sent to the Drina Corps Command; correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. The 2nd Podrinje Brigade's prison that -- that you're referring
8 to is the Uzamnice prison; correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. We see at the top of the page that this is being sent to
11 Lieutenant-Colonel Cerovic. Could you tell us his position?
12 A. In the Drina Corps, as far as I know, he was in the Department
13 for Morale.
14 Q. Who directed you to prepare this list?
15 A. I cannot say with certainty now who it was. Probably it went
16 through the organ for morale from the Drina Corps to the 2nd Brigade, and
17 then the 2nd Brigade provided that to me, or to my command, rather.
18 Q. You recognise the names on this list to be names of Muslims;
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. We see at points 3 and 4 that the people referred to here were
22 born before 1920. TG Visegrad detained people over the age of 70; right?
23 A. I cannot accept that because from when I took up my post, not a
24 single person was detained. Obviously these are persons who were
25 detained in 1992 at this facility.
1 Q. Okay. Just so we're clear on where you're getting that
2 information for [sic], you're referring to the individuals, let's use
3 numbers 3 and 4 as an example, and the information that they had been
4 detained since their date of capture on 10 October 1992. That's what
5 you're referring to?
6 A. Obviously all of this has to do with 1992.
7 Q. Turning to page 2 of the English translation, at point 19, that's
8 a 10-year-old Muslim girl who'd been detained since 1992; right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Point 20, that's an 8-year-old Muslim girl; right?
11 A. Evidently.
12 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution tenders 65 ter 32207 into evidence.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P7239, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Is admitted into evidence.
16 Could we, nevertheless, seek some information. You said this was
17 about -- was about 1992. Now, the document dates from April 1993, and it
18 says: List of imprisoned persons who are located at the 2nd Podrinje
19 Light Infantry Brigade prison. It doesn't say who were located but who
20 are located.
21 Do you have any explanation as to why such a list was sent under
22 your name, saying that they are located where you are denying that there
23 was anyone in detention?
24 Do you have any explanation for that?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have an explanation because
1 I still maintain with full responsibility that from my arrival there and
2 throughout the period of my command, I did not see a single civilian in
4 JUDGE ORIE: No. But we now see a document with your name under
5 it, which lists persons up to very elderly persons, very young persons,
6 as being detained in the 2nd Light Infantry Brigade prison.
7 Now, I do understand that you say it's not true, but, of course,
8 that -- I'm seeking a real explanation rather than a repetition of what
9 you said before. How it is possible that such a list is provided, if you
10 say there were no persons detained, no civilians?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Obviously -- well, I don't know
12 whether -- whether you will accept this explanation of mine, but this is
13 a document that was sent not through the chain of command but, rather,
14 through a particular service. That is to say, the information service or
15 rather the morale service. Who wrote this in my command? Since I had
16 two operations officers who were in the command, in addition to the Chief
17 of Staff, now who wrote this, and on the basis of which period, I cannot
18 say to you right now with a great deal of precision.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I heard your answer.
20 Now this document also refers to the prison within this brigade.
21 Was there any prison within the brigade?
22 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I believe I've referred to it.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But I think that -- isn't it true that the
24 witness said something about that there was only MUP prisons and no --
25 MR. WEBER: [Overlapping speakers] ...
1 JUDGE ORIE: Oh that was in Rudo. Yes --
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, Rudo.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
4 Please proceed.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I have one short follow-up question.
6 You said: "I did not see a single civilian in Uzamnice."
7 Did you hear about a civilian in that prison?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did. I heard before I
9 arrived there, before I assumed command in Visegrad, before I assumed my
10 duties there.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And did you hear about detained civilians in that
12 prison after your arrival?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I have one question which is a bit referring to
16 an earlier part of your testimony.
17 You said you heard about Mr. Lukic, who had mistreated prisoners.
18 Did you investigate that?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Because Lukic was not within
20 my units.
21 JUDGE ORIE: He was not subordinate to you in any way?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
24 MR. WEBER:
25 Q. General Masal, in response to Judge Fluegge's question just now,
1 you said that you had heard before you arrived, before you assumed
2 command in Visegrad, that -- about civilians at Uzamnice. Who did you
3 hear this from?
4 A. I heard that from civilians. If you want me to be specific, my
5 wife's friend from school at the time when I was not at home, spoke to my
6 wife before all communications were cut with Bosnia-Herzegovina, and she
7 mentioned that a relative of hers was at that facility. And beforehand,
8 that had been a warehouse of the JNA.
9 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
10 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I don't know if we reconciled whether or
11 not the document was admitted. I know I tendered it. Ms. Stewart helps
12 me. Thank you. Sorry.
13 Your Honour, I see that we're also at time for a break. I'm
14 going onto a new topic. If we could take the break a minute or two
15 early, just not to split the next topic?
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: You were going to revisit a matter that I was
17 trying to raise a little earlier. Are you still going to revisit it?
18 MR. WEBER: Forgive me if I'm off, but are you referring to
19 whether or not he reported the information about those groups to the
20 Drina Corps? I -- forgive me --
21 JUDGE ORIE: I suggest that you --
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: But I seem to think you addressed it with the
23 document that you said you would like to have a look at first.
24 MR. WEBER: Yes.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: I think you did address it.
1 MR. WEBER: Okay, thank you, Your Honours. I don't know if it's
2 a good time for a break.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it's a good time for a break. But I'd first
4 like to deliver a decision in private session.
5 So if first the witness could be escorted out of the courtroom.
6 We'd like to see you back in 20 minutes, Witness.
7 [The witness stands down]
8 JUDGE ORIE: And we return into private session.
9 [Private session]
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. We take a break, and we resume at
15 quarter past 12.00.
16 --- Recess taken at 11.58 a.m.
17 --- On resuming at 12.17 p.m.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, could you tell us whether you're on track
19 in terms of time.
20 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, I have been informed that I'm at two
21 hours and 20 minutes and I am on track and on time in terms of our
22 four-hour estimate.
23 And Your Honours, it does look -- and we did speak briefly with
24 counsel about this, the next witness who I know may be present, it does
25 look like we probably will not get to that witness today. I don't know
1 if --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Then I think it would be wisest to excuse the
3 witness for today.
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, there was one issue remaining that was,
6 you remember the publication in an English newspaper, what was the
7 original what was the translation. Now we do see that the original is in
8 English but, of course, it's not directly taken from that newspaper.
9 MR. WEBER: Hmm.
10 JUDGE ORIE: It is a transcript of that newspaper. Could you try
11 to find out whether it's a literal transcript of what is published in
12 that newspaper or whether there's anything which does not for the full
13 100 per cent correspond with the published article.
14 MR. WEBER: Of course, Your Honours. And I do understand that
15 you're referring to the Los Angeles Times relating to the Mac -- to the
16 course of examination I was doing.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that was what I was referring. We dealt only
18 with one newspaper article today.
19 We'll continue. Mr. Weber, you may proceed.
20 MR. WEBER:
21 Q. Tactical Group Visegrad participated in Operation Zvijezda 94;
23 A. Yes.
24 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 32225 for
25 the witness.
1 Q. This is a 3 May 1994 TG Visegrad operation analysis regarding
2 Operation Zvijezda 94.
3 MR. WEBER: If we could just flip to the last page quickly.
4 Q. This analysis is from you; correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 MR. WEBER: If we could please return to the first page in both
8 Q. In the first paragraph, your analysis indicates that the
9 Herzegovina Corps commander had an idea to launch an operation to
10 liberate the territory of the Serb municipality of Gorazde. The
11 liberation of Gorazde was the objective of Operation Zvijezda 94; right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. The Serb municipality of Gorazde had not been established prior
14 to this operation; right?
15 A. Legally under that name, no. However, Gorazde municipality was
16 both Serb and Muslim.
17 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have page 4 of the B/C/S
18 original and page 5 of the English translation.
19 Q. At the end of this analysis, you state as your conclusion: "The
20 units of TG Visegrad managed to fully achieve the objectives set in the
21 Zvijezda 94 operation. 135 square kilometres of territory was liberated.
22 All conditions were created for the establishment of the Serbian
23 Municipality of Gorazde, the return of the residents to the territory and
24 the further activities on the full liberation of the city of Gorazde."
25 This was your conclusion; right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. The area that was taken during this operation included villages
3 near the town of Gorazde; right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You refer to the return of residents to their territory. Is it
6 correct that you were referring to Serb residents?
7 A. Yes.
8 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution tenders 65 ter 32225 into evidence.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P7240, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: P7240 is admitted.
12 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 32220 for
13 the witness.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Say the number again, just for the record.
15 MR. WEBER: 32220.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
17 MR. WEBER:
18 Q. This is a 26 March 1994 TG Visegrad order for further operations
19 pursuant to Operation Zvijezda 94. The order is from you to your
20 subordinate brigades and copied to the Herzegovina Corps for their
21 information. Is it correct that this operation began at the end of
22 March 1994?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Directing your attention to section 2, the task that is in this
25 section and it's underneath the locations of the villages, you
1 communicate, it states: "Break up and destroy enemy forces in the zone
2 and create conditions for the liberation of Gorazde."
3 This was the specific task that you conveyed to your units;
5 A. Yes.
6 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have page 3 of both
7 versions, and I'm focussing on section 6.
8 Q. Under section 6 regarding fire support, you state: "The chief of
9 artillery of the TG shall determine firing positions and plan fire for
10 the duration of the operation and the required quantity of ammunition as
11 approved by the Main Staff VRS."
12 General Mladic was the person from the Main Staff who approved
13 the fire support during this operation; right?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Then who was the person that -- that authorised it, that approved
16 it, from the Main Staff.
17 A. Fire support for the units in the operation was from own forces
18 and own tools. And as for the necessary quantities of ammunition for the
19 operation, were to be requested from the main command all the way up to
20 the Main Staff.
21 Q. Okay. I'm asking you a fact: Who from the Main Staff approved
22 this during the course of the operation?
23 A. The ammunition for the operation?
24 Q. Sir, the phrase actually reads: "The artillery chief shall
25 determine firing positions and plan fire for the duration of the
1 operation and the required quantity of ammunition as approved by the
2 Main Staff VRS."
3 Who from the Main Staff was approving this during the operation?
4 JUDGE ORIE: This is unclear in this context --
5 MR. WEBER: Okay.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Let's -- one question. The ... was the planned fire
7 for the duration of the operation, was that approved by the Main Staff of
8 the VRS?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, no.
10 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Fire support was --
12 JUDGE ORIE: I'm just seeking clear answer.
13 Was the required quantity of ammunition approved by the
14 Main Staff of the VRS?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: And who, in the Main Staff of the VRS, approved the
17 quantity of ammunition?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When it comes to approving
19 ammunition for particular operations, it was the deputy commander of the
20 Main Staff who did that. His decisions were implemented by the logistics
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Was that the case in this year as well; and
23 who was that?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I suppose so, since I received the
25 necessary quantities of ammunition through the Drina Corps. I sent my
1 request along the command line, and I suppose that the command of the
2 Drina Corps forwarded my request to the Main Staff.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You suppose all that. In the document, we
4 read that it was approved by the Main Staff of the VRS.
5 Who was, then, the deputy commander who would have approved this?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] General Milovanovic.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
8 Please proceed.
9 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution tenders this document into evidence,
10 65 ter 32220.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P7241, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: P7241 is admitted.
14 MR. WEBER:
15 Q. During this operation, the VRS destroyed villages around the town
16 of Gorazde; right?
17 A. No.
18 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 32230 for
19 the witness.
20 Q. This is a 5 April 1994 UNMO Gorazde sitrep.
21 MR. WEBER: If we could please have the second page of both
23 Q. It reports on what is going on in the area of Gorazde, and I'd
24 like to focus your attention, starting with the phrase where the UNMOs
25 communicate: "Villages burned --
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It's not clear we have the correct page in the
3 MR. WEBER: I believe it was the bottom of the page in B/C/S.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Would that mean number ten would not exist because
5 we see on the English screen that it is immediately before paragraph 11
6 whereas we have paragraph 9 on the B/C/S version.
7 MR. WEBER: Could we have the next page of the B/C/S. My
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic.
10 MR. IVETIC: There's no number ten in the English original
11 either, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. If that's the case, then if it would be --
13 MR. IVETIC: A part missing I mean, a part that's cut off, so I
14 don't know whether that says number 10. That's my problem with this
15 document there's some lines missing at the bottom of the first page in
16 the English and at the top of the second page in English but I don't see
17 a number 10 anywhere in the English original.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
19 MR. WEBER: I am just focussing on particular information here.
20 I see what the top of page 2 looks like. If I could just go to the
21 preceding page in the B/C/S again, and I believe, actually, the part I
22 want to focus on is at the bottom of the page.
23 JUDGE ORIE: But if there would be -- and let's just have a look.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 MR. WEBER: I see there's possibly some translations issues here.
2 If I can read out the part I would like to use in the English original.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you would do that, it may well be that the
4 English version is not complete so at least you should try to find a
5 complete English version.
6 MR. WEBER: Okay. Your Honour -- okay.
7 Q. Sir, I'd like to draw your attention to a part of this report.
8 It states: "Villages burned, destroyed by BSA are Kordici, Ljeskovik,
9 Radmilovici, Nevorici, Stanici."
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Here B/C/S ends.
11 MR. WEBER:
12 Q. Then it goes on: "Ogleceva (school and mosque), Ljeskovic,
13 Dragoli, Bosanje as reported by local authorities and refugees. These
14 villages have on average between 25-30 families."
15 These were areas located outside the town of Gorazde; correct?
16 The villages I have just mentioned to you.
17 A. I'm not familiar with any of the names of these places. I think
18 or, rather, I'm sure that they are not in my zone of responsibility.
19 None of them are. The villages of Kopaci, Obarak and Ustiprace were in
20 my zone of responsibility, as well as the foot of Kozara and Kozara or,
21 rather, those villages. And they were not destroyed which is
22 corroborated by the fact that the Serbian population returned into those
23 settlements and that's where the Serbian Municipality of Gorazde was
24 established. Bear in mind that --
25 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... we're talking about the
1 villages. The village of Ogleceva where the school and the mosque were
2 located, this is actually, in fact, an area just to the south of Gorazde
3 of the town, right by Dragoli, and Bosanje - correct? - is in that area
5 A. That's in the direction of Foca. Not my zone.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sir, you said you don't know anything about these
7 villages but then you say they were never destroyed because the Serbian
8 population returned into those houses.
9 Did I hear -- am I interpreting you correctly?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: I withdraw my question.
13 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I'd ask that this document be MFI'd to
14 resolve the translation matters.
15 MR. IVETIC: If we can also have the MFI defined if we can find a
16 better copy because the section that's being cited is particularly where
17 there's the illegible portion which this text is a continuation of, so to
18 have a meaning of what it means, we need to have the complete document,
19 not this incomplete version.
20 JUDGE ORIE: You mean at the top of page 2 where we only can see
21 and in Gorazde city whereas it's difficult to read the first lines.
22 MR. IVETIC: That's correct --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Line or lines we do not know.
24 MR. IVETIC: That's correct, and I think it's also possible at
25 the bottom of page one might be part of this as well. I don't know.
1 Because, again, there's no number 10.
2 JUDGE ORIE: So Mr. Weber it will be marked for identification.
3 You're invited to find a complete version in the English and then, of
4 course, have a -- a -- a corresponding version in translation in B/C/S.
5 MR. WEBER: Of course, I will look to see if we have one.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Registrar, the number.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Will be MFI P7242, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: P7242 is marked for identification.
9 MR. WEBER:
10 Q. You received orders from General Mladic during
11 Operation Zvijezda 94; right?
12 A. Directly from General Grubac. During Operation Zvijezda 94, my
13 tactical group was resubordinated to the Herzegovina Corps which was in
14 charge of all the activities to liberate the general area of Gorazde.
15 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P731 for
16 the witness.
17 Q. Before us is an order you issued on 11 April 1994 related to
18 Operation Zvijezda 94. I'd like to draw your attention to item 7 that
19 states: "I am forwarding you a message from the commander of the
20 Main Staff of the VRS, General Mladic, who visited our zone of combat
21 operations on 10 April 1994."
22 You then quote General Mladic's message as: "Keep pushing
23 energetically onwards, pay no attention to what is going on around us.
24 The Turks must disappear from these areas."
25 This is the message you conveyed; correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Where did General Mladic visit in your zone of operations on the
3 10th of April?
4 A. That was at my observation post in the Sjenokos facility sector.
5 It -- above the purpose reduction [as interpreted] facility Pobjeda. And
6 it was during the night between the 10th and the 9th -- the 9th and the
7 10th, as far as I can remember.
8 There was a group of fighters there. General Mladic addressed
9 them as well. He told them to move forward and to liberate the area of
11 Q. Just to be a little clear on where this observation post was,
12 where was in relation to the town of Gorazde?
13 A. I'll try to get my bearings as much as I can. In topographic
14 terms, it was on the road leading from Gorazde to Mesici and Rogatica
15 right before Jabucko Sedlo mountain pass, in the direction of Rogatica in
16 that part.
17 Q. So it was to the north of Gorazde, if I understand you correctly?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Approximately how far from the town?
20 A. According to my estimate, some 7 to 8 kilometres. Maybe more,
21 but everything is possible.
22 Q. During Operation Zvijezda 94, the VRS committed crimes, including
23 the shelling of civilian targets in Gorazde and summary executions of
24 villagers who resided outside of the town of Gorazde.
25 This is what happened; right?
1 A. No.
2 Q. The VRS again denied passage of convoys to Gorazde during this
3 operation and also cut off the supply of electricity and water; right?
4 A. I spoke about electricity yesterday, but I don't know where the
5 source is providing Gorazde and whether the army could have cut that off.
6 I don't know about that.
7 Q. Let's just go to another document.
8 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 03464 for
9 the witness. And, actually, if we could have page 2 in both versions.
10 Q. Before you is a 10 June 1994 United Nations report on the human
11 rights situation in the former Yugoslavia. The report focuses on the
12 situation in Gorazde.
13 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have page 3 of the
14 English original and page 4 of the B/C/S translation.
15 Paragraph 5 of this report states: "The offensive with which
16 this report is primarily concerned was first heralded by military actions
17 in the last days of March 1994, including the blocking of the roads into
18 the enclave, refusal to allow passage of convoys and the massing of
19 troops at the edges of the safe area."
20 This is what happened at the outset of the operation; right.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. The rest of paragraph 5 then discusses the penetration of the
23 enclave by Bosnian Serb forces. Goes on to reference the
24 10 April air-strikes and eventually cease-fire on 23 April. This
25 information is also correct.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. In paragraph 6, the report indicates that both sides continued to
3 engage after the cease-fire. And then states: "Serious destruction has
4 been caused during the withdrawal of attacking forces. They have also
5 complicated the programme of medical evacuation from the enclave.
6 According to international sources some 700 people were killed during the
7 offensive and some 1.970 wounded. Deaths are continuing to occur due to
8 sniping and other such incidents. During this and previous offensives,
9 the town of Gorazde suffered damage to some 80 per cent of its
11 The fact is the VRS killed or wounded a lot of people in the town
12 of Gorazde during Operation Zvijezda 94. That's what happened.
13 A. I don't have information about the number of casualties on the
14 other side.
15 Q. In the next paragraph, paragraph 7, the report discusses the
16 destruction of homes, individuals who attested to rapes, and summary
17 executions of elderly women and a handicapped man, among other things.
18 The paragraph then states: "At all stages of the offensive,
19 villagers fled in fear of their lives, leaving behind homes, land and
21 Again, this is what happened during the course of
22 Operation Zvijezda 94 in the area of Gorazde; right?
23 A. That is on the basis of this document, but I claim that that's
24 not the way it was.
25 Q. Paragraphs 8, 9 and 10 discuss the deliberate targeting of
1 civilian structures, specifically mentioning the hospital, along with how
2 the Bosnian Serbs halted electricity and water supply which caused
3 people --
4 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I'm going to just stop for a second.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, now it's the third time. Once more and
6 you really -- I have to remove you from the courtroom. No speaking
7 aloud. This is the last warning for today.
8 Please proceed.
9 MR. WEBER:
10 Q. These paragraphs also describe how Bosnian Serbs halted the
11 electricity and water supply which caused people to line up for water
12 where they were then exposed to sniper fire.
13 Just so you can see these paragraphs. Please let us know when
14 you need the next page. I'm referring to paragraphs 8, 9, and 10.
15 JUDGE ORIE: And please give the witness time to read them.
16 MR. WEBER: Of course.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've read it.
18 MR. WEBER: If we could have the next page for the witness so he
19 can continue reading.
20 Q. Sir, if you can please carry on reading on the next page,
21 paragraph 10, and let us know when you are done.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Turn the next page into -- in the English.
23 MR. WEBER:
24 Q. Sir, have you completed through paragraph 10?
25 A. I've read it.
1 Q. The paragraphs you just read, they actually describe what
2 happened during the operation; right? Civilian targets were deliberately
3 targeted, there was no more water in the enclave and people were exposed
4 to sniper fire when they went for water?
5 A. All of that is not correct.
6 Q. Units from the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps were involved in the
7 Operation Zvijezda 94; correct?
8 A. Outside my area of responsibility, I don't know which units of
9 theirs took part along that axis.
10 Q. If I can then just focus you on paragraph 12, the report states:
11 "It may be noted that the attack on the town of Gorazde involved the use
12 of weapons of great destructive force."
13 You requested modified air bombs which were used during this
14 operation; right?
15 A. Yes. But that was at the very beginning of the operation.
16 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution tenders this report into evidence,
17 65 ter 3464.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
19 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P7243, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
21 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 25361 for
22 the witness.
23 Q. This is a 3 April 1994 request from you to the VRS Main Staff and
24 the Drina Corps. It refers to units attached to the SRK who have an air
25 bomb launcher. This is -- the area that's being referred to, the axis,
1 that's in your zone of responsibility; correct? Where it says "units
2 attached to the SRK on the Mesici-Jabucko Sedlo axis"?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. In this document you request ten FAB-100 kilogram air bombs and
5 five fuel-charged ones. What was the calibre of the fuel-charged
6 modified air bombs you were requesting? What was their payload?
7 A. These bombs were never made in the first place. I just received
8 information that was obviously incorrect. It was only classical air
9 bombs that were made of 100, 150, and 275 kilograms.
10 Q. You used modified air bombs of these -- of the types you just
11 mentioned during Operation Zvijezda 94; correct?
12 A. Yes, just two projectiles, weight 100 kilograms, from the area of
13 Jabucko Sedlo.
14 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution tenders 65 ter 25361 into evidence.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P7244, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
18 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 32232 for
19 the witness.
20 Q. This is a 20 April 1994 UNMO Gorazde shell rep update. It
21 states: "Local sources report that moments ago two large-calibre 'ground
22 to ground missiles' exploded near the city centre, destroying two houses
23 and blowing the roofs off approximately 20 others."
24 These two explosions were caused by the two modified air bombs
25 you just told us you fired, right, this is what happened?
1 A. This is not correct. The range of those two bombs ensured
2 activity up to the first facilities of the Pobjeda factory, not a metre
3 further away from there. This is a totally false report of the local
4 soldiers or civilians, I'm not going into that, who that was. We did not
5 have that kind of range, as is referred to here.
6 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution tenders the document into evidence,
7 65 ter 32232.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P7245, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Is admitted into evidence.
11 Witness, could you tell us, from where the bombs were fired?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These bombs were fired from the
13 area to the north of the pass of Jabucko Sedlo. That is to say, that
14 faces Rogatica.
15 JUDGE ORIE: What was the distance to the town centre of Gorazde?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think Jabucko Sedlo, the centre
17 of town would be 10 or 12 kilometres away.
18 JUDGE ORIE: And how were these projectiles propelled?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These projectiles were propelled
20 with one rocket engine respectively, of a multiple rocket launcher of 122
21 millimetres called Grad.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Was the range of such a propelling system, was that
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it was tested with one engine,
25 with two engines, and with three engines.
1 JUDGE ORIE: This Chamber received quite some evidence about
2 modified air bombs, and one of the things that appeared several times is
3 that the imprecision and the lack of exact knowledge of the effect of the
4 propelling system.
5 Do you have any comment on that or could you tell us how this
6 exactly was tested, and when, and where, and how you received information
7 about that.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can, and I can speak with
10 Air bombs were modified to such an extent that they were adjusted
11 so as to have a rocket engine from the mentioned rocket-launcher placed
12 on them. Also they had two sliding devices on their body, and they were
13 supposed to guide the air bomb initially, and it's on part of a track, a
14 rail track, or a tram track. It's that wide. And the point of these two
15 parts was to give the initial direction to guide it in this way.
16 It was tested in terms of targeting precision, and that was done
17 by professional organs that is to say, engineers from the Pretis holding
18 at the Kalinovik training grounds and with the assistance of certain
19 professional institutions from Yugoslavia.
20 On the basis of this testing, so as not to dwell on this for too
21 long, firing tables were elaborated for all three types.
22 JUDGE ORIE: You had firing tables for the ones used?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right, that's right. Like
24 for any other artillery piece.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, please proceed.
1 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 32311,
2 e-court page 21.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 MR. WEBER:
5 Q. Sir, I'm going to be bringing up a previous portion of your
6 Popovic testimony and I'll read it to you, starting at line 22.
7 The question posed to you: "You mentioned air bombs. Were these
8 weapons forbidden?
9 Your answer was: "No."
10 Next question: "But I thought we had heard here that these
11 weapons were not particularly accurate. Could you tell us anything about
12 this and about the accuracy of such weapons?"
13 Your answer was: "It was precisely for those reasons that it was
14 necessary to plan things in detail to avoid having casualties on your own
15 side, because the launchers, launchers which - how shall I say this? -
16 were fairly primitively manufactured, had not been tested technically.
17 They hadn't been tested ballistically and so the way they were launched
18 were not followed by necessary calculations, so these devices and this
19 equipment was not precise. And very often there were very large
20 deviations from one projectile to another."
21 Sir, your statement to this Chamber, what you just explained
22 about it being tested and them being accurate, it is not truthful. It is
23 inconsistent with your previous testimony; right?
24 A. In my previous testimony, I spoke about the very beginning and
25 about individual initiatives, so that individually and without
1 centralised approval, such pieces be used. That is to say, unless all
2 the measures that I mentioned during my previous testimony were not
3 taken, that is to say, all these calculations, metallurgical, ballistic
4 and all others, if that led to major mistakes and omissions. However, if
5 all calculations were made and they had firing tables where all the
6 parameters were for calculating repairs, then this lack of precision was
7 drastically reduced.
8 Q. This is what you said during your previous testimony; right?
9 A. Yes, I said precisely for those cases where firing tables were
10 not used and where all the corrections, improvements were not made.
11 Q. Sir, I don't find as part of your previous testimony but let's
12 read one other portion.
13 MR. WEBER: Could I have e-court page 61. And we're going down
14 to line 21.
15 Q. The question to you was: "These air bombs that you told us
16 about, can you briefly describe how they actually were fired? I think
17 you described a launching system and trailers and so forth, but can you
18 just describe how they worked? "
19 Your answer was: "In the briefest possible terms, you have a
20 motor vehicle and the body of the vehicle in which you have incorporated
21 part of a classical artillery piece known as the cradle. So all you have
22 is the cradle without barrels, and welded on to that is a rail similar to
23 a tram line or railway lines for trains. And this [sic] is the device
24 used for launching. It has targeting devices from artillery pieces which
25 was used for this cradle.
1 "Now, the aerial bomb itself, as a whole, remains as it is. In
2 order to launch it or to expel it from this device, at the back it had a
3 metal adapter built into it, a metal plate or adapter, with an incised
4 device for the rocket motor, 1, 2, 3, or 4 of those. And these rocket
5 motors were used with multiple barrel rocket-launcher; specifically in
6 this case, it was a multi-barrel of 122-millimetres of Russian
7 manufacture called Grad, and on the underside there were two slips which
8 led the bomb along the tracks or rails. And the third element was a
9 device for electric activation, the activation of the motor itself and
10 this activation was done on the side, on the flank, from a distance of
11 about 10 metres. Since the rocket motors, once they are activated, expel
12 the flare or flame, the substance of the -- that is how those aerial
13 bombs were launched using this particular device."
14 Do you stand by this testimony?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. There were no barrels like artillery to guide the launching of
17 the modified rockets; right?
18 A. No, no.
19 MR. WEBER: Oh.
20 Q. Sir, is it correct that you were promoted to the Main Staff after
21 Operation Zvijezda 94?
22 A. No, it's not a promotion. It is an official transfer to serve on
23 the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska.
24 Q. And this was a higher command than you had previously been
25 serving; right?
1 A. In terms of establishment, yes. But promotion is something
2 completely different. I mean, if you take it literally, then promotion
3 means promotion in rank.
4 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I see we're approaching time for the
5 break. I will finish during the next session.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll take the break first.
7 Witness, you are invited to follow the usher. We'd like to see
8 you back in 20 minutes.
9 [The witness stands down]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, when you referred to the modified air
11 bombs in the previous testimony, could you please or either agree with
12 the Defence or otherwise establish a time-frame, if there is any of such
13 because the witness in his answer very much made a comment that may have
14 been how it was in the beginning apart from, perhaps, that was not what
15 you read to him but it would assist the Chamber if we could have more
16 information about the time-frame.
17 MR. WEBER: It would be the Prosecution's position that the scope
18 of his testimony related to 1995. And his time in the VRS Main Staff.
19 So --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Which would mean that what happened later on
21 should have not been -- before 1995 but rather after 1995 or later in
23 And Mr. Ivetic.
24 MR. IVETIC: It's not the position of the Defence. It is
25 inconsistent with the documents offered by the Prosecution into evidence
1 and the witness's testimony.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then I said that it would assist the Chamber
3 if it would have a time-frame. Apparently the parties disagree on the
4 time-frame. If further attention could be paid to so that the Chamber
5 receives assistance it considers relevant then that would be appreciated.
6 We take a break, and resume at 25 minutes to 2.00.
7 --- Recess taken at 1.16 p.m.
8 --- On resuming at 1.36 p.m.
9 JUDGE ORIE: We're waiting for the witness to be escorted into
10 the courtroom.
11 Meanwhile, I use the -- I wanted to say I would use the
12 opportunity, but there are a few matters in relation to various witnesses
13 which I would deal with perhaps not always completely in one breath. But
14 it is about remaining issues from the testimony of Vojo Kupresanin and
15 remaining issues from the testimony of Goran Krcmar, so if the parties
16 would be on stand by for these two witnesses and any remaining issues
17 I'll deal with them one by one, if there's time.
18 [The witness takes the stand]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, meanwhile, Mr. Weber.
20 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please, again, have
21 65 ter 32311, e-court page 21.
22 Q. Sir, I read you a portion of your Popovic testimony where you
23 described the inaccuracy of modified air bombs. I just want to return to
24 that page and direct your attention to something earlier on that same
25 page just for some context.
1 Starting at line 4, you were asked the question and this is while
2 you were being shown an order: "Do you remember where you were when you
3 drafted this order? Were you still serving in Crna Rijeka or were you
4 already in Zvornik?
5 Your answer was: "In Crna Rijeka."
6 Do you stand by this testimony?
7 A. What order are you talking about?
8 Q. Okay, let's go onto the order that you were being shown at that
9 time. It is actually one of the associated exhibits to your statement.
10 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have D956, marked for
12 JUDGE ORIE: And where do we find that. In relation to what
13 paragraph of the statement?
14 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I believe it's paragraph 28.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
16 MR. WEBER: But I'm checking just to verify. Yes, paragraph 28.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 MR. WEBER:
19 Q. Sir, before you was the order that you were commenting upon
20 during your Popovic testimony. It is a Main Staff urgent order for
21 artillery and rocket support to units in Operation Spreca 95, dated
22 30 March 1995?
23 A. Now I understand.
24 Q. We see that even in this order you are directly referred to a
25 part of a team of the VRS Main Staff in your position as chief of
1 artillery, in the context of planning tactical and technical preparation
2 and use of the aforementioned equipment.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. The answers that you were providing in the Popovic case were
5 clearly in the context of your position in the Main Staff in 1995. That
6 was the case; right?
7 A. Yes.
8 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, the Prosecution notes that it's marked
9 for identification. We have no objection so I can leave it for the
10 housekeeping but we would ask to have this admitted.
11 MR. IVETIC: It's one of the ones that's tentatively assigned a
12 number by Mr. Registrar so it's not yet been used.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, there's no need to assign a further number to
14 it. We -- if there would be any reason that the Chamber would consider
15 to deny admission then, of course, we would, of course, you because then
16 you tender it as well.
17 Nothing of the kind at this moment is to be expected.
18 One additional -- oh, perhaps I should address the parties. In
19 view of the time-frame and in view of the answers given by the witnesses,
20 if any party would have access to any of the firing tables the witness
21 referred to, the Chamber would, of course, appreciate to be informed
22 about it, and perhaps to be provided with it.
23 Witness, do you have any knowledge about where these firing
24 tables were to be found?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really don't know. I had them
1 while I was an active-duty officer. I had them in my hands. Where you
2 could find them now, I really don't know.
3 JUDGE ORIE: And do you have any explanation as where you said,
4 My answer that I gave at the time were at the very early stages, the
5 beginning of the use of aerial bombs, where they were not tested yet.
6 But when you used them they were tested.
7 The context given now is Operation Spreca which was in 1995, so
8 therefore perhaps would you have an explanation why you considered for
9 Operation Spreca, them still not being tested, or at least in that
10 context you gave that evidence that they were not tested. Yet you told
11 us today in 1994 they had been tested and that you had firing tables.
12 Do you have any explanation as far as the chronology you relied
13 on is concerned?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as far as I can
15 remember, I got questions about aerial bombs whereas in Spreca operation,
16 launchers, crews and a team that carried out technical preparation did
17 all that based on all the existing documents and the existing firing
18 tables. So the period in question was not the first time aerial bombs
19 were used. I was there myself.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it's not exactly an answer to my question, but
21 let's move on.
22 Please proceed.
23 And why is it not an answer to my question? Because the answers
24 you gave earlier about aerial bombs not being tested were apparently put
25 to you in a time-frame which dealt with Operation Spreca which is, I
1 think, mentioned even in that context in the -- in the -- in the
3 I leave it to that, and ...
4 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I note the document that is at issue
5 is on the screen still, and if you read it I think you will see that it
6 talks about checking the readiness of crews so would have referred to
7 things that have not been done before, that are now being checked to see
8 if they've been implemented. So, I think Your Honours are actually --
9 MR. WEBER: [Overlapping speakers] ... I'd just ask that we be
10 careful in front of the witness.
11 MR. IVETIC: [Overlapping speakers] ... I'm trying to be very
12 careful. That's why I'm directing Your Honours to look at the document
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that what's I did.
15 Please proceed, Mr. Weber.
16 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 32229 for
17 the witness.
18 Q. And, sir, I just have a couple more documents to go through with
20 This is a Drina Corps Command request dated 8 April 1995 related
21 to Spreca 95. It's to the VRS Main Staff. It says: "In order to
22 swiftly break the enemy's resistance in Spreca 95 operation, the chief of
23 ARJ, Colonel Masal, suggested the use of three FAB-250 and one-time asb,
24 275 kilogram on 9 April 1995. Please consider the Colonel's suggestion
25 and approve the uses of the suggested quantities."
1 Sent from General Zivanovic.
2 This is what you requested for the operation; correct? You were
3 personally requesting the use of aerial bombs.
4 A. General Zivanovic requested and I agreed.
5 Q. Okay. Let's look at the next page in both versions. Before us,
6 we have the response from General Milovanovic dated the same day,
7 8 April 1995, sent back to the Drina Corps and it says: "In response to
8 your request ... the Main Staff hereby approves the use of the mentioned
9 ordnance. The use of the ordnance is to be controlled solely by
10 Colonel Dragisa Masal."
11 This is what happened during Operation Spreca 95; right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Sir, I put it to you that you're evading or trying to recouch
14 your testimony from the Popovic case because you yourself controlled the
15 use of the modified air bombs as a member of the Main Staff. That's what
16 you're doing today.
17 A. Please. Be precise. I personally controlled and managed the
18 preparations of this ordnance for Operation Spreca 95. How would it look
19 if a colonel participated in the preparation of ordnance for each
20 activity? He would then be a lieutenant or a commander of a squad. Of
21 course, I was in charge of the technical preparation of those things, of
22 that ordnance; that's only understandable.
23 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution tenders the documents into evidence.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P7246, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
2 Please proceed.
3 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 15428.
4 Q. This is a Main Staff report to the president of the republic,
5 Radovan Karadzic, dated 15 June 1995.
6 MR. WEBER: Could we please have page 3, I believe in both
8 Q. Sir, I'd like to focus your attention on the section related to
9 the zone of the IBK, the Eastern Bosnia Corps and the situation in the
10 corps. The report says: "Corps units responded to all of the enemy
11 attacks. On Majevica, the main efforts are focussed on fortification of
12 current positions, reconnaissance and preparation of units for reclaiming
13 of lost positions; one FAB-250 and one napalm bomb were fired at Krstac
14 village ..."
15 And we see there's some handwriting which has been translated:
16 "As retaliation for fire opened on the general area of Bijeljina, while
17 17 122-millimetre shells and one FAB-250 kilogram were fired at Urajevo
18 village as retaliation for frequent shelling of Brcko."
19 Sir the fact is you were firing modified air bombs as retaliation
20 for other actions; right? You were doing that?
21 A. No, I did not do that.
22 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution tenders the document into evidence.
23 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ...
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Overlapping speakers] ... this is
25 about --
1 JUDGE ORIE: The witness has given an opportunity to explain what
2 seems to be contradicting evidence.
3 Please explain, Witness, what you'd like to say about the firing
4 of projectiles in retaliation.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is about the redeployment of
6 the Eastern Bosnia Corps. This activity has nothing to do with the chief
7 of artillery of the Main Staff. Personally at the time, I was in the
8 western part of Bosnia in the Drvar sector.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Then the next question arises whether you deny that
10 it happened or that you are just telling that you were not involved.
11 Which of the two is it?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know if that happened, but
13 clearly this is a report.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think, Mr. Weber, but perhaps you should be
15 very precise. If you said this is what you did, that you clarify what
16 you mean by "you," whether that was the Bosnian Serb army or whether it
17 was this witness.
18 So please be very precise in your questions.
19 Then I think we have not yet decided on the admission.
20 Mr. Registrar, the number would be?
21 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P7247.
22 JUDGE ORIE: P7247 is admitted into evidence.
23 Please proceed.
24 MR. WEBER:
25 Q. When you took up your position as chief of artillery in the
1 Main Staff, you visited all the corps; is that right?
2 A. Yes. But not the Herzegovina Corps. I only visited that corps
3 after six months.
4 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 32227 for
5 the witness.
6 Q. This is a 24 September 1994 VRS Main Staff order from
7 General Milovanovic. In item 1, there's a reference to the Chief of
8 Staff of the artillery organ of the Main Staff carrying out an
10 This is a reference to the inspections that you carried out of
11 the corps at the time, when you became the chief of artillery; right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Under item 2, there's a schedule for the inspection of the VRS
14 corps and other units. With -- noting what you said about the
15 Herzegovina Corps, you followed the -- you inspected the artillery and
16 rocket units of the other corps and units according to the schedule;
18 A. To be more precise, I did not inspect all artillery and rocket
19 units. I inspected their commands, and I was briefed by the chiefs of
20 artillery of those commands. I inspected only those artillery units that
21 I deemed to be important and that I thought I should inspect. Those were
22 usually artillery regiments as the highest-ranking artillery units in the
23 Army of Republika Srpska.
24 Q. If we could go to item 4, and this is on the next page in the
25 English --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Irrespective of what the "inspection" exactly meant,
2 could you confirm that did you that inspection in accordance with the
3 schedule, because that was the question.
4 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, not in accordance with the
6 schedule because I did not visit the Herzegovina Corps. I was sent on a
7 different mission which was a priority at the time, which was more
8 important than this inspection.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do you remember, then, what you did in the
10 evening hours of the 25th of October, up to the -- 2.00 on the 26th of
11 October? What was it that did you then, in 1994?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I can remember, certain
13 positions in the zone of the 2nd Krajina Corps were lost and the IKM of
14 the Main Staff was set up in the zone of the 2nd Corps. So together with
15 General Milovanovic, I went on that mission.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
17 MR. WEBER: Sir, I'd like to direct your attention to item 4.
18 They're specifications on what the corps commands or the commands were to
19 report on. One of the items relates to the "grouping of the artillery
20 formation of" - and it's in the document as KOGs and Br AGs -
21 "possibility of regrouping by calibre while adhering to the usage
23 Is it correct that this is a typo in this sentence and it should
24 be referring to KAGs or corps artillery groups, not KOG.
25 A. I don't see that here but I know what you are talking about. We
1 are talking about KAGs, and that stands for corps artillery groups.
2 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... next page?
3 MR. IVETIC: [Overlapping speakers] ...
4 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... you should give an
5 opportunity to the witness to look at the next page.
6 Please enlarge the upper part.
7 Third line, KOG is an error, Witness?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not KOG. It should be KAG. This
9 is the abbreviation for the corps artillery group.
10 MR. WEBER:
11 Q. And you received reports back from the different corps you
12 inspected related to the matters in item 4; right? And please let us
13 know if you need to go either forward or backward in the document --
14 well, actually there is no forward, so let us know if you need to see the
15 first page again.
16 A. Yes, there's no need. I received reports.
17 Q. On these items.
18 During your inspections you received reports on these items that
19 we see in the order under number 4; right?
20 A. Right.
21 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution tenders 65 ter 32227 into evidence.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P7248, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
25 [Prosecution counsel confer]
1 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, the Prosecution has no further questions
2 for the witness.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Weber.
4 Mr. Ivetic, any further questions for the witness?
5 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour, we do.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Could you give us a time indication.
7 MR. IVETIC: About one hour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Which means that we can't conclude the
9 testimony of the witness today.
10 MR. IVETIC: That's correct.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
12 Re-examination by Mr. Ivetic:
13 Q. Good day, again, General?
14 A. Good day.
15 Q. Yesterday, at transcript page 33356, lines 9 through 25, you were
16 talking about an UNPROFOR convoy that was delayed the longest at the
17 Rogatica check-point and it was not clear to what time-period this delay
18 entailed. Could you please tell us in terms of the number of days how
19 long was the longest delay of a convoy that was stopped at check-points
20 in your zone of responsibility, while at the Tactical Group Visegrad?
21 A. Three days.
22 Q. And just to make things abundantly clear, this convoy that was
23 delayed for three days, what was the reason for the delay of that convoy?
24 A. The only reason was the fact that the convoy leaders did not
25 accept or rather did not allow inspection as agreed by the agreement on
1 the freedom of movement of convoys through Republika Srpska.
2 Q. And, again, to make abundantly clear what we're talking of, was
3 this convoy eventually inspected?
4 A. Eventually at the end of day three, the UNPROFOR command
5 intervened. Their representatives arrived from Sarajevo and they allowed
6 inspection, but one vehicle belonging to the observers was removed from
7 the convoy and went back to Sarajevo voluntarily.
8 Q. And in relation to the vehicles that were searched, was anything
9 out of the ordinary discovered?
10 A. Yes. Video cameras were discovered. Some optical surveillance
11 tools, binoculars, radio sets, and as far as I can remember, there were
12 also some clips for automatic weapons, as well as satellite telephones.
13 Q. Okay. Now, moving along, in relation to the ban on movement of
14 convoys, you also said yesterday at transcript page 33354 that this was
15 when relationships with UNPROFOR were tense.
16 Could you please explain for us what it is you meant when you
17 said, "Relationships with UNPROFOR were tense"?
18 A. At that time, and at that level, at which --
19 Can you hear what I'm saying?
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. At that time while I was in that position, we received
22 information from the superior command, and it was stated why certain
23 convoys were disallowed. Usually the accompanying documents said due to
24 misunderstandings or some deterioration in relations between the
25 UNPROFOR Command in Sarajevo and the Serb side. That is why convoys were
1 not allowed to enter territory that was under control of units of the
2 Army of Republika Srpska.
3 Q. And yesterday, sir, there was talk of the time-period of
4 May 1993. Do you recall what the particular tension or deterioration in
5 relations between UNPROFOR and the Serb side was in May of 1993?
6 A. As far as I can remember, at the time, at the time there was a
7 danger or, rather, a threat to the following: That the positions of
8 Republika Srpska would be bombed by NATO air force ...
9 Q. And now I'd like to turn to your statement, D942 marked for
10 identification --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Are you going to a new subject.
12 MR. IVETIC: Same subject [Overlapping speakers] ...
13 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... no, no, then I'll wait.
14 MR. IVETIC: Okay. So it's D942 marked for identification, page
15 11 English and it's between pages 9 and 10 in the Serbian, and it's
16 paragraph 23 which deals with the same topic.
17 Q. And in regard to these times that the relations were tense with
18 UNPROFOR, you identify a document from April of 1994 in paragraph 23 of
19 your statement, and you state that the Supreme Commander kept in force
20 the ban on the movement of teams and convoys of UNPROFOR and humanitarian
22 Now I'd like to look at P00780, which is the document that you
23 cite here, and I'd like to turn to the last page and last paragraph of
24 that document. And, sir, I'd like to explain your conclusion which we
25 just saw in paragraph 23 of your statement in relation to this
1 paragraph of this document that you have cited to.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know how your question was translated --
3 interpreted, Mr. Ivetic, you said I'd like to explain. But did you
4 invite the witness to explain?
5 MR. IVETIC: I apologise I meant to say I'd like the witness to
6 explain why that is.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Then the witness may not understand that he's asked
8 to do something.
9 Could you please explain.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, precisely in this order, it
11 is stated that on the basis of the decision of the Supreme Command to
12 suspend all contacts or all relations between the VRS Main Staff and the
13 command of the United Nations force. On the basis of that decision of
14 the Supreme Command, an order was issued to the Main Staff, and the
15 Main Staff conveyed that order to all of their subordinate units.
16 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I'm moving to a related but slightly
17 different topic so if Your Honours had something to ask I would defer to
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, there was one matter. Yesterday there was the
20 issue of the longest delay and that was about three weeks which was put
21 to you by the Prosecution. You remember? The convoy was kept at a
22 check-point for three weeks.
23 MR. WEBER: My recollection, just to be fair to the witness, was
24 actually at the time what I put was that there were no convoys allowed
25 into the area for three weeks.
1 JUDGE ORIE: For three weeks.
2 MR. WEBER: Yes --
3 JUDGE ORIE: I may have misunderstood that. I'm happy I raised
4 the issue because it improves my understanding of the testimony but the
5 question is not needed any further.
6 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
7 MR. IVETIC: Okay. Thank you.
8 Q. Now, in relation to the convoys, yesterday you were asked about
9 alleged food shortages in Gorazde and that was several times but I am
10 focussing particularly on the instance at transcript page 33365 and at
11 that instance, the source that was presented to you was a news article by
12 Agence France Presse. What was your experience during the war as to the
13 accuracy of news journalists reporting as to the situation in and around
14 Gorazde town?
15 A. I shall respond as a soldier.
16 If one were to believe all the information from the media,
17 electronic and written, then during one month of war everybody would have
18 died of thirst and hunger in the area of Bosnia-Herzegovina. So
19 propaganda in view of the safe areas, especially the safe area of
20 Gorazde, was catastrophic, and it just prolonged the war in the territory
21 of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
22 Q. And you were also asked about food -- about the lack of convoys
23 going to Zepa causing food problems and that's at transcript page 33357
24 through 33358. I'd like to call up number 25880 and page 1 in both the
25 English and the Serbian.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Before we do that, Mr. Ivetic, since we'll not be
2 able to conclude the testimony of the witness anyhow if we start with a
3 new document now and then a series of questions ...
4 MR. IVETIC: I see your point.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Therefore I would suggest that we look at that next
7 Witness, I again instruct you that you should not speak or
8 communicate with whomever about your testimony, whether already given or
9 still to be given. We'd like to see you back Monday, 9.30 in the
10 morning. You may now follow the usher.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 [The witness stands down]
13 JUDGE ORIE: We adjourn for the day, and we'll resume Monday,
14 the --
15 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar reminds me of something but there's
17 some misunderstanding perhaps. The response by the Prosecution on any
18 scheduling issue and time or from preparation, I understood that it would
19 be filed today, but if that is a wrong understanding, then I'd like to
20 hear from the Prosecution now what their response is.
21 MR. TIEGER: I presume this in connection with the proposed
22 adjournment issue? Yes, we are working on that and expect to file it
24 JUDGE ORIE: File it today.
25 MR. TIEGER: Yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: That's what I understood it to be. But apparently
2 some others thought that we would receive an oral response today.
3 We will wait and see -- the Chamber may even, once we have seen
4 that and if we had made up our mind as far as scheduling is concerned,
5 the Chamber may consider to already inform the parties informally on what
6 it has decided or what it intends to decide so as to -- if there are any
7 compelling reasons -- not in terms of whether you want more or less time,
8 but compelling reasons that what we have on our mind in terms of what
9 weeks or what month, et cetera, that if that would find strong
10 opposition, really compelling opposition, that we will consider whether
11 we will send already such a message before, or whether we already will
12 inform you about the final outcome of our deliberations on how to
14 And this -- I know that everyone is waiting for it because it may
15 affect your personal programmes as well, so we will deliver that as soon
16 as we can.
17 We adjourn for the day, and we resume on Monday, the 23rd of
18 March, 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, I.
19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.17 p.m.,
20 to be reconvened on Monday, the 23rd day of March,
21 2015, at 9.30 a.m.