1 Tuesday, 24 March 2015
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: No preliminaries were announced. Therefore, we're
6 waiting for the witness to be escorted in the courtroom.
7 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
8 JUDGE ORIE: But that's no reason not to have the case called.
9 Mr. Registrar.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you. And good morning, Your Honours. This
11 is case number IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
13 MS. HASAN: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.
14 I just, as the witness is being brought in, ask that 65 ter 32300
15 be called up. Page 40.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I meanwhile also use the time in relation to
17 one item, it's the testimony of Goran Krcmar. In relation to P7172,
18 which was marked for identification pending a translation, the Chamber
19 would like to receive an update from the Prosecution.
20 [The witness takes the stand]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Blagojevic.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
23 WITNESS: VIDOJE BLAGOJEVIC [Resumed]
24 [Witness answered through interpreter]
25 Cross-examination by Ms. Hasan: [Continued]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Blagojevic, I remind you that you are still
2 bound by the solemn declaration you have given yesterday at the beginning
3 of your testimony. Ms. Hasan will now continue her cross-examination.
4 MS. HASAN:
5 Q. Good morning, Mr. Blagojevic.
6 A. Good morning.
7 Q. Just to touch on -- to make a final point on what we were
8 discussing yesterday, and I'm going to read to you one more thing that
9 said during your testimony in the Karadzic case, and this is in relation
10 to the shells that were fired on the Srebrenica enclave on the 25th of
11 May 1995. And that is: You will recall me reading to you an excerpt
12 where you discussed whether you assumed responsibility for the firing of
13 those shells, and you said, and this is at line 22 of your Karadzic
14 testimony, you said --
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We don't have it on the screen yet.
16 MS. HASAN: Page 40 of 65 ter 32300.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's there now.
18 Please proceed, Ms. Hasan.
19 MS. HASAN:
20 Q. So line 22, and I'll read this to you, it says you say:
21 "It was not my decision. I was implementing an immediate order.
22 There is no two ways about it. It is very clear in military terms."
23 So I just want to be very clear what your position is. Do you
24 stand by the testimony you gave there in the Karadzic case?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Okay. Now, if we can turn to 65 ter 32297, please. And what you
2 will see here is -- it's an interim report of the 28th Division of the
3 Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and it's dated the 26th of May. You can
4 take -- have a read through it.
5 A. I have read it.
6 Q. So it's talking about the 25th of May and that the enemy has
7 shelled the area of Srebrenica and Suceska and that at 1900 hours, two
8 82-millimetre mortar shells fell near the primary school, and it goes on
9 to talk about the shelling of Suceska, and it sets out the casualties as
10 a result of that shelling. Now, did you authorise your units that day to
11 fire mortars onto the Srebrenica enclave?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Is it possible that the impact of the howitzers that were fired
14 were mistaken for 82-millimetre mortar shells.
15 A. I doubt it. This report refers to a completely different area.
16 The distance is significant from one place to the other.
17 Q. Okay. But leaving aside the locations, would you say and your --
18 would you say that just the -- that the impact of the howitzers could
19 have been mistaken for impact of 82-millimetre mortar shells?
20 A. I would never take one for the other. No, I cannot say anything
21 about what might happen to others.
22 Q. Okay. I'll move onto the next document.
23 MS. HASAN: If I could offer then 65 ter 32297 into evidence.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have the intention to tender the document
1 which is on the screen now?
2 MS. HASAN: Yes, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
4 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P7257, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Is admitted into evidence.
6 MS. HASAN:
7 Q. And you will recall that this document notes that the two mortar
8 shells were fired at -- at 1900 hours, and you will recall the document
9 we looked at yesterday where it says the howitzers were fired at 1907
10 hours. You recall that; right?
11 A. Is that a question for me?
12 Q. Yes, certainly.
13 A. I don't think you're right on that at all. If you look at the
14 previous document, the one that you showed me yesterday, you will see --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you may have misunderstood the question.
16 The question is whether you recall that what the document says was shown
17 to you yesterday, the document saying that howitzers were fired at seven
18 minutes past 7.00 in the evening. Do you recall that that document has
19 been shown to you?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
22 MS. HASAN: Thank you, Mr. President. If we could look at 65 ter
23 25386, please. What will appear is a June 7, 1995, UNPROFOR report. And
24 if we could, for the time being, turn to page 7 in the English, page 9 in
25 the B/C/S.
1 Q. And I'll turn your attention to item C.1. And it starts in the
2 English just at the bottom of the page. This is a report on crater
3 analysis, and it records under that item, we see time A and time B, that
4 there's an impact between 1915 hours and 1925 hours. The first two
5 digits, 25, being the date; 25 May 1995.
6 MS. HASAN: And if we turn the page in the English.
7 Q. We see UNPROFOR here recording that this impact resulted -- it
8 says under item 5, "Type of weapon: Artillery, 105-millimetre." You see
10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We cannot hear the
11 speaker. Witness, could you please adjust your microphone that when you
12 are leaning over towards the screen that you can still be heard, yes.
13 Perhaps the -- could you please repeat your answer.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I see paragraph 5 on the right-hand
15 side. It says RT 105 millimetres.
16 MS. HASAN:
17 Q. Now it records the casualties as well, and these are the same
18 casualties we saw in the ABiH report. Fatima Dautbasic, and I'm probably
19 mispronouncing that, as well as Ms. Mustafic Nusreta, both of whom were
20 injured as a result of this firing.
21 Now just below you see under D.1, again time -- 25th of May,
22 date; time, between 1918 hours and 1935 hours. In the B/C/S we can turn
23 to the next page.
24 Mr. Blagojevic, if you just look under D.1 towards the top of
25 that page you see the times there and the date of another impact, and
1 UNPROFOR records that:
2 "The impact was on the wall of a wood store and we couldn't
3 analyse properly but we suspect it came from the same direction as above.
4 "Artillery used: 105 millimetre."
5 Now if we turn to page 11 in the English and page 14 in the
6 B/C/S, and you will recall the document we looked at yesterday, P7255,
7 this was the interim combat report in your name for the 25th of May where
8 it records that two of the shells were observed and the other two were
10 Here, on this page, under item 3, you see Team Srebrenica.
11 And (B), under (B), UNPROFOR records that:
12 "It was reported to UNMOs at 262930," and that's a reference --
13 sorry. "It reported to UNMOs," there's some digits there by a police
14 officer, "that there was shelling in Bucinovici between 1905 and 1915
15 hours yesterday," that being the 25th of May. "Casualties were brought
16 to Srebrenica hospital, including girl, 9 years old, killed; Gabelic
17 Jasna, Almaz, injured; 12 years old girl, Gabelic, Alma, Almaz, with left
18 arm broken. UNMO team was not able to carry out investigation due to the
19 ROM in that area imposed by the BiH."
20 Now, that corresponds to what we saw in the ABiH report. Now,
21 the two howitzers that were fired at 1907 hours that were not observed,
22 those shells are the ones that fell on this village of Bucinovici; isn't
23 that the case?
24 A. I cannot agree with what you said, because yesterday we stated
25 that 105-millimetre artillery pieces fired in the area of Srebrenica,
1 fired four shells. This does not correspond to what you are asking me
2 about, and I cannot confirm anything. Because Bucinovici - I don't know
3 exactly according to the map - but they're probably at some distance.
4 Now, we could see how far away that is from Srebrenica, if I could take a
5 look at a map.
6 Q. Well, I can tell that you that's in the area of Suceska. But
7 let's move on.
8 MS. HASAN: I'd offer 65 ter 25386 into evidence.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
10 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P7258, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
12 MS. HASAN:
13 Q. And you would be aware, wouldn't you, that around the same time
14 shortly after 7.00 p.m. on the 25th of May when your units fired
15 howitzers at the inhabited enclave of Srebrenica, that the centre of
16 Tuzla was also shelled and that 66 young individuals, young persons were
18 A. I'm not aware of that. I did not know about it then. I don't
20 Q. Well, this was the first day you took office as Bratunac Brigade
21 commander. And it was also Youth Day celebrated in the region. So you
22 don't recall a massive shelling of the centre of Tuzla with scores of
23 casualties? You were unaware of that event?
24 A. Unaware of it.
25 MS. HASAN: Let's take a look at 65 ter 25386, please.
1 [Prosecution counsel confer]
2 MS. HASAN: I'm sorry, it's the document we are looking at, and
3 if I can just turn to page 3 in the English and in the B/C/S.
4 Q. It's a report on the shelling that took place. And it reads:
5 "As a sequel to the air strikes administered by NATO at Pale ammo
6 dump, Bosnian Serb army resorted to massive retaliatory artillery
7 shelling against Tuzla town and TAB. It's our position that that refers
8 to the Tuzla air base which is considered deliberate targeting of UN
9 troops, tps, and Tuzla safe area. The shelling commenced at 1910 hours
10 simultaneously at Tuzla air base and the Tuzla safe area. ... total of
11 31 impacts were recorded up till 2100 hours."
12 Just the last sentence of that paragraph:
13 "66 people were massacred to death and 170 were wounded, amongst
14 them 31 were critically injured."
15 Sir, you were not aware that at approximately almost exactly the
16 same time that you fired into Srebrenica there was concerted firing at
18 A. I didn't know.
19 MS. HASAN: I'd offer 25386 into evidence.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It's already admitted.
21 JUDGE ORIE: We admitted it a minute ago. Please proceed.
22 MS. HASAN: The next document, 65 ter 17696, please.
23 Q. And, in fact, Mr. Blagojevic, not only was Srebrenica attacked at
24 that time on that day, not only was Tuzla attacked, but so were the safe
25 areas of Gorazde and Bihac, as was Sarajevo. We see here a code cable,
1 UN code cable, dated the 26th of May, 1995, subject: "Air strikes
2 Sarajevo." And it reads or starts off reading:
3 "After the air strikes [sic] of 25 May 1995, all safe areas less
4 Zepa have been shelled and Bosnian Serbs have fired heavy weapons from
5 five weapon collection points around Sarajevo."
6 You see that there?
7 A. Yes, I do.
8 Q. And, in fact, Mr. Blagojevic, you must have known that all the
9 safe areas, including Srebrenica which your units fired at, less Zepa
10 were fired at at that very same day?
11 A. Regardless of the fact that you say that I had to know, I did not
13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We didn't hear the end of
14 the sentence.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Could you repeat the last part of your answer. You
16 said you didn't know. And what did you then add?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm saying that regardless of the
18 fact that the Prosecutor says that I had to know, I did not know about
19 that. I assure you of that.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Hasan.
21 MS. HASAN: I'd offer 65 ter 17696 into evidence.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P7259, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
25 MS. HASAN: Now, let's move onto 65 ter 062 -- I'm sorry. 06288,
2 Q. And this is an order from General Zivanovic. It's dated the 25th
3 of May, 1995, and it was received, appears, from -- by the
4 Rogatica Brigade at 0020 hours on the 26th.
5 Now, it's addressed to the commands of, amongst others, the
6 Bratunac Infantry Brigade. And Zivanovic provides here that:
7 "On 25 May 1995 in the afternoon the NATO aircrafts within the
8 UNPROFOR contingent fired at the facilities of the Army of
9 Republika Srpska. The Army of Republika Srpska responded accordingly
10 with the activities against the selected targets."
11 Sir, does this order refresh your recollection about the events
12 of 25 May and that the action -- and the actions your units -- units of
13 the Bratunac Brigade took that day, that this was a concerted attack?
14 A. First of all, I don't see that this was sent to the
15 Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade. Where would I find that? Could you
16 please point me to the place, because I can't see it?
17 Q. If you just look under where it says very urgent, command, and
18 then it says to the command --
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You see that?
21 A. Yes, I can see that.
22 Q. And the second to last acronym on the first line there. You see
24 A. Yes. It says the 1st pbr. Usually in documents like this, the
25 abbreviation for my brigade should be brlpbr. I don't know whether this
1 is a mistake. However, if you look at other documents, you will see that
2 that is the abbreviation that stands for my brigade. This may be it as
3 well, but the customary abbreviation is 1.vrlpbr. I can't see the letter
4 L here.
5 Q. Okay, Mr. Blagojevic. Do you know of another Bratunac infantry
6 brigade that the Drina Corps would be addressing this order to?
7 A. There was no other Bratunac Infantry Brigade. There was just
8 one, the 1st Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade, and that brigade was under
9 my command.
10 MS. HASAN: I'd offer 65 ter 06288 into evidence.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar --
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we do that, would the Bratunac Infantry
13 Brigade on the fourth line be a duplication? I see it says "brpbr."
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 MS. HASAN: Your Honour, I believe you're referring to the Birac,
16 reference to the Birac Brigade.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There's also a Birac Brigade, yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P7260, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
22 MS. HASAN:
23 Q. Now, you made the Drina Corps aware, as we saw in the previous
24 documents we looked at yesterday, of the shelling, the firing into the
25 Srebrenica enclave. That's right?
1 A. That's correct.
2 MS. HASAN: And if we look at 65 ter 15409, please.
3 Q. What you will see, it's a Main Staff report. It's to the
4 president of Republika Srpska. It's reporting on the situation in the
6 And under item 1 where it's discussing in the SRK area of
7 responsibility, if we look in the English just three lines down from the
9 In the B/C/S, Mr. Blagojevic, if you look at the first full
10 paragraph under item 1, just the last few lines there.
11 It reads:
12 "He fired from the NATO aircrafts (using air bombs) against the
13 area of Jahorinski Potok, over the warehouse of the 27th Logistics Base
14 at a distance of 500 metres."
15 And that's a reference to the -- the NATO bombing we've been
17 If we turn to page 4 in the English, please, and page --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Could we first clarify who "he" is in this context?
19 "He fired," it said.
20 MS. HASAN: I believe that's a reference to NATO. The previous
21 sentence --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's -- let me just have a look.
23 MS. HASAN: Would be the enemy. We can see in the first line
25 JUDGE ORIE: First line, it's "enemy." Then second sentence
1 starts with "he fired." And then, "He fired from the NATO aircrafts."
2 The enemy was firing from NATO aircrafts, is that...?
3 MS. HASAN: That's how it reads, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I see that. Okay. Let's move on and ...
5 MS. HASAN: If we can turn to page 4 in the English and B/C/S
6 page 3, the Main Staff is reporting on the activities in the Drina Corps
7 area of responsibility. This is under item 6. It's in the middle of the
8 page in the B/C/S.
9 And under 6(B), situation in the corps, the Main Staff reports:
10 "Enemy fire was timely returned against observed targets. All
11 the corps units are in the level of readiness as ordered. Artillery was
12 used against the enclaves Srebrenica and Gorazde and Tuzla airport."
13 Q. You see that, Mr. Blagojevic?
14 A. I do.
15 Q. And you'd agree that the information that you provided to the
16 Drina Corps was relayed to the Main Staff and to the president of
17 Republika Srpska?
18 A. Yes. When it comes to the artillery attack, I can see that the
19 information was relayed.
20 MS. HASAN: I'd offer 65 ter 15409 into evidence.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P7261, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ORIE: P7261 is admitted.
24 MS. HASAN:
25 Q. Now, Mr. Blagojevic, I'm going to move a little bit in time to
1 the 6th of July, 1995.
2 MS. HASAN: And I'd like to turn to 65 ter 32320, please.
3 Q. And what will you see here, it's a report, and it's from
4 Drina Corps Commands to the command of the air force and anti-aircraft
5 defence. And it's requesting -- it says:
6 "We would like to request your permission ..."
7 MS. HASAN: I am sorry, Your Honours.
8 Q. Just so that I'm clear, and Mr. Blagojevic, it's the second
9 telegram there at the bottom of the page. There's two on a single page.
10 The one we're interested in is the bottom one, confidential number
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You should also state the date of that telegram.
13 MS. HASAN: Yes, it's dated 8 March, 1994.
14 Q. And it reads:
15 "We would like to request your permission to take over for the
16 needs of the Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade, which has manufactured
17 launchers, the following materiel and technical equipment from the air
18 force and anti-aircraft defence ..."
19 And the items requested include a FAB-50. Can you tell us what
20 that is?
21 A. I don't have an explanation. I'm not an expert, not in this
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Blagojevic, if you know what it stands for, even
24 without being an expert, you're invited to tell us. If you say, I've no
25 idea what FAB stands for, then we'll move on.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I don't know. The
2 time is 1994, so I really can't say anything.
3 MS. HASAN:
4 Q. It's our position, Mr. Blagojevic, that that's a fabricated air
5 bomb, 50 kilograms. Now, it also reads in this document that the
6 Bratunac Brigade has manufactured launchers. What are those manufactured
8 A. What I can tell you in very general terms is this. Vehicles were
9 prepared. Some devices were mounted on them to be used to launch certain
10 devices. However, while I was there, I don't think I had those things.
11 I don't remember. But every now and then I did see such things when I
12 was in other positions, not only when I was a brigade commander. I can't
13 tell you anything about its operation function, how it's activated. I
14 really can't tell you anything with any certainty.
15 Q. Okay. And when you're talking about -- just to help us out here,
16 when you're talking about some devices were mounted on the vehicles, can
17 you be a little bit more specific and describe that for us?
18 A. How should I do that? I've told you everything. I'm not expert
19 for that technology. I can't describe anything. I can just imagine
20 things, but my imagination would not reflect the truth of the matter, and
21 I'm not willing to do that.
22 Q. Okay. We'll come back to this, Mr. Blagojevic.
23 MS. HASAN: If we can have a look at D303, please.
24 And as that comes up, I'll just deal with the last document,
25 32320, and offer that into evidence.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P7262, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
4 MS. HASAN:
5 Q. And, Mr. Blagojevic, you're familiar with this document. It's
6 the order for active combat operations dated the 5th of July, 1995. Part
7 of the Krivaja 95 attack plan.
8 Now, if we turn to page 4 in the B/C/S and page 4 in the English,
9 please. And as we know, this is your document, Mr. Blagojevic, which you
10 testified about yesterday and told us that you compiled. Under item --
11 under tasks, item 6.2, it reads:
12 "The 128-millimetre launcher platoon will provide support from
13 the fire position in the Kaolin sector.
14 "At 0300 hours on 6 July, 1995, it will fire four projectiles (50
15 kilogram air bombs) on the Potocari sector (the school, the 11th
16 March factory, the Gracic hill, TT-377, Kula, and Orici)."
17 You see that, Mr. Blagojevic?
18 A. I do.
19 Q. And I don't know if this helps you, but would these 50 kilogram
20 air bombs, "avio bombe" in your language, be the same 50-kilogram air
21 bombs we just -- the same type of 50-kilogram air bombs we saw in the
22 previous document, or do you believe those are two different types of air
24 A. I can't say anything with any certainty but I can see that we're
25 talking about the 128-millimetre launcher platoon. I really can't tell
1 you what kind of bombs they had. I know that they were the
2 128-millimetre launcher platoon, but I don't know anything about the
4 Q. Well, Mr. Blagojevic, this is your -- this is your order. You
5 ordered this task --
6 A. Yes, it is.
7 Q. -- to this platoon, and I take it you understood very well what
8 you were referring to when you ordered the firing of four 50-kilogram air
9 bombs into Potocari, didn't you?
10 A. Yes. This is part of my order; I understand that.
11 Q. Well, let's move on.
12 MS. HASAN: Let's look at 65 ter 04217, please.
13 Q. And this, Mr. Blagojevic, is another one of your daily combat
14 reports. It's dated the following day, the 6th of July, 1995 --
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could you repeat the number, please, just for the
17 MS. HASAN: 65 ter 04217.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
19 MS. HASAN: And if could I ask that we turn to the handwritten
20 version of this report, which is page 2 in the -- sorry, page 3 in the
21 B/C/S and page 2 in the English.
22 Q. And for your benefit, Mr. Blagojevic, we can move to page 3 -- 4
23 in the B/C/S, so you can just see the end of that handwritten document.
25 MS. HASAN: If we just turn back a page so we can look at the
1 content of this daily combat report that goes to the Drina Corps. Back a
2 page just in the B/C/S, please. It reads under item 2, just the second
3 paragraph in the English:
4 "Firing support against set targets was provided by 70-millimetre
5 shell launcher (school in Potocari, 11 Mart factory, and wide area of the
6 village of Potocari)."
7 Are you following, Mr. Blagojevic.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. So these 70-millimetre shell launchers, what are -- what is that?
10 A. 128-millimetre a while ago and now 70-millimetre, the two figures
11 should be the same. They're not, and I find that surprising. This
12 should be one and the same: 128-millimetre launcher platoon, because
13 there is no other such unit.
14 Q. All right. But this is talking about shell launchers. What --
15 what is that a reference to?
16 JUDGE ORIE: And it's "shell launcher," in quotation marks.
17 Could you tell us what that refers to?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This could only refer to the
19 128-millimetre launcher platoon. That's the unit that was mentioned in
20 the order. I did not sign this specific combat report. Somebody else
21 did it. I don't know how professionally he could portray the situation
22 in his report so that the report reflected it properly.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could we look at the signature again at the end of
24 the handwritten draft, please, for Mr. Blagojevic.
25 Do you see the signature there, Mr. Blagojevic? Do you know
1 whose that is?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can see the signature, but can I
3 also see the word "z-a," "za." I'm sure you can see that. And as for
4 the rest, I don't know. It may have been a duty operations officer in
5 the ops room or in the office where such documents were drafted, and he
6 sent it in its present form.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I ask you an additional question. The
8 handwriting of the text, I'm not referring to the signature, the
9 handwriting, whose handwriting is that?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The same person who is probably the
11 duty operations officer. I don't know who else it could have been.
12 There may have been two. Maybe one of them drafted it, the other signed
13 it. In any case, it was the duty operations officer in the ops room who
14 drafted it, and I don't know whether the same person signed it. At this
15 moment, I really can't detect whose handwriting this could be.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
17 JUDGE ORIE: And I have -- is there any fact to your knowledge
18 which could explain while -- why the words "shell launcher" are put in
19 quotation marks?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, there's no rule to that
21 effect. It's just something people did. Representatives of the people,
22 an armed formation. Maybe this is just one of the popular expressions
23 that you sometimes find in texts that should be written in a proper
24 military professional form. I really can't tell you. I don't know. I
25 have no explanation.
1 There's every possible indication that this reference is to the
2 128-millimetre launcher platoon, the one that I mentioned in my order.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, you are constantly referring to what is
4 apparently a unit, whereas reading this I get the impression that it may
5 not be a normal unit or something of the kind but that it's something
6 special and that that's the reason why it is put in quotation marks.
7 Do you have any comment on such an understanding of this
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can only tell you that in the
10 light infantry brigade I had a mixed artillery battery, a mixed artillery
11 battery which comprised howitzers and a 122-millimetre launcher platoon,
12 some cannons, and some other tools that I can't remember. The battery
13 was mixed, and that means that it had all sorts of equipment and tools.
14 That's why it was called a mixed artillery battery.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Would it have had any launchers which would be able
16 to fire modified air bombs?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It had a 128-millimetre launcher
18 platoon. You can see it in my order. A platoon is a lower-ranking unit
19 than a battery. A battery is usually comprised of platoons.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, my question was whether where you said that
21 it had all sorts of equipment and tools, whether it had any launchers
22 which would be able to fire modified air bombs? Could you please answer
23 that question.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We had a launcher platoon, a
25 128-millimetre launcher platoon.
1 JUDGE ORIE: It's not an answer to my question but please
2 proceed, Ms. Hasan.
3 MS. HASAN: I don't know if this will assist.
4 Q. Mr. Blagojevic, when you refer to "platoon," do you mean a
6 A. A platoon is an organisational unit. Usually it's a part of a
7 company or a battery.
8 JUDGE ORIE: The witness clearly referred to a unit in -- a
9 platoon is a lower-ranking unit than a battery. So he's talking about
10 units and not about physical equipment.
11 Please proceed.
12 MS. HASAN:
13 Q. Now, Mr. Blagojevic, you had ordered the firing of the
14 50-kilogram air bombs. Now, were those dropped from the air?
15 A. I did not have such technical resources to order that something
16 be dropped from the air, so I couldn't have done anything like that.
17 Q. So how were they fired?
18 A. A launcher platoon has artillery technical resources, how they
19 fire artillery. I am an engineer myself. I'm not an artilleryman.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, let's be quite clear. Modified air bombs,
21 at least we heard evidence, that they are launched on equipment which has
22 rails, not from a tube. Because we heard evidence that modified air
23 bombs are bombs which are used to drop from aircrafts but used on the
24 ground, some propelling little rockets are fixed on it, and then - at
25 least that's what some of the evidence says - they were launched by a
1 launcher which is rails rather than tubes or barrels.
2 In the documents that have been shown to you, reference is made
3 to 50-kilogram bombs and in -- it's the Prosecution's position that air
4 bombs -- these are air bombs.
5 Now, could you tell us how such projectiles, such bombs, were
6 fired? And if you say you're a technician, I take it that you fully
7 understood my brief explanation of what evidence we received. Tell us
8 how the 50-kilogram bombs were fired? And if I say, I don't know, then
9 we'll just move on.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that technology. I
11 really do not know ...
12 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, even this Chamber and the parties which are
13 all trained lawyers and not technicians have shown to have at least some
14 understanding on how it works. But you say, though being a technician,
15 have you no idea how 50-kilogram bombs, which are referred to, are
16 launched? You have no idea?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I really don't know.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Hasan -- or as a matter of fact,
19 it's time for a break. I think you've got approximately half an hour
20 left. Is that ...
21 MS. HASAN: I trust your calculation of that, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it's not my calculations only, but could you
23 tell us whether you'd -- you're on track?
24 MS. HASAN: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, we'll take a break. We'd like to see you
1 back in 20 minutes. You may now follow the usher.
2 [The witness stands down]
3 JUDGE ORIE: We'll take a break of 20 minutes. We'll resume at
4 five minutes to 11.00.
5 --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.
6 --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.
7 JUDGE ORIE: While waiting for the witness to be escorted in the
8 courtroom, I meanwhile would like to briefly deal with a remaining issue
9 concerning the testimony of Vojo Kupresanin. It's about D853.
10 D853 was marked for identification pending an agreement between
11 the parties on the excerpt to be tendered, this is found at transcript
12 page 29668 to 29669, and the Chamber would like to hear from the parties
13 whether any agreement was reached.
14 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. I have to talk in my name and in
15 the name of Mr. Traldi.
16 We have the agreement, only it technically has to be cut out from
17 the original document.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's good. And then it will be uploaded.
19 We'll then hear from you once that is done.
20 [The witness takes the stand]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan, you may proceed.
22 MS. HASAN:
23 Q. Now, Mr. Blagojevic, this document that we're looking at, whether
24 it was prepared and drafted by your aide, be it a duty officer or
25 somebody else assisting you, as the commander of the Bratunac Brigade in
1 whose name this report goes out to the Drina Corps, you do take
2 responsibility for this report and the contents of it; isn't that right?
3 A. I do.
4 MS. HASAN: Your Honours, before I tender this document, I'm
5 told -- I'm informed that we have located a more legible copy. You will
6 have seen that the previous page in the B/C/S is a teletyped version
7 which is completely illegible on the screen. It has been rescanned, and
8 I would request permission that we replace these documents with better
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But they have not been uploaded yet, the newly
11 scanned version. Then we'll have it marked for identification awaiting
12 the replacement of the teletyped page by a new, better legible copy, and
13 that's just one of the pages of the document in its entirety.
14 MS. HASAN: There's apparently also a better copy of the
15 handwritten version of it.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Well, whatever, it remains the same but --
17 MS. HASAN: Exactly.
18 JUDGE ORIE: -- all in better quality.
19 MS. HASAN: Correct. And just one other point on the document.
20 The handwritten English translation -- sorry, the English translation of
21 the handwritten version of it does not say "za" as the original provides,
22 so we will be requesting a revised English translation.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it says "for commander,
24 Colonel Vidoje Blagojevic," so it's --
25 MS. HASAN: We can keep that as is.
1 JUDGE ORIE: The only, perhaps the "for" is --
2 MS. HASAN: It's fine, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: It's put a little bit further down, there's
4 "commander" and then "for him." Here it says "for commander." No, but
5 let's move on.
6 Mr. Registrar, could you give us the number under which this
7 document is marked for identification?
8 THE REGISTRAR: That will be MFI P7263, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: And keeps that status until further order.
10 Please proceed.
11 MS. HASAN: If we can look at Exhibit P41, please.
12 Q. This is an UNPROFOR sitrep for 5th of July, 1995, from 1700 hours
13 to the 6th of July, 1995, 1700 hours.
14 MS. HASAN: And if we turn to page 5 in the English and B/C/S,
16 Q. This is a summary of the incidents that happened on the 5th and
17 6th of July, 1995. And it begins with 0315 hours to 0322 hours. So this
18 at 3.15 to 3.22 in the morning. UNPROFOR records the Bosnian Serb army
19 fired five rockets from the vicinity of -- and I can't -- that's not
20 legible to me, 5492. Two impacted within 300 metres south of the
21 compound Potocari.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In the B/C/S translation, it says "6492" instead
23 of "5492."
24 MS. HASAN: Yes, thank you, Your Honour. And looking at that it
25 says CP 6492.
1 Q. Do you see that, Mr. Blagojevic?
2 A. Yes, number 1, I see that.
3 Q. Okay. Now, it's referring here to five rockets landing within
4 300 metres of the Potocari compound, and this is around the time, in
5 fact, that you had ordered the firing of the air bombs; isn't that
6 correct? At 0300 hours.
7 A. Well, I cannot confirm that. I cannot confirm that. Whether
8 that corresponds to what I had ordered in my order, I cannot confirm
10 Q. You do acknowledge that your order was for the firing of the air
11 bombs at 0300 hours?
12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We cannot hear the
14 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, perhaps the usher could assist in adjusting
15 the microphone.
16 Could you please repeat your answer, Mr. Blagojevic.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that my order was related to
18 the 128-millimetre platoon. I don't have the exact timing in my head
19 right now whether it corresponds to what was presented here by the
20 observers. I cannot confirm that, no way.
21 MS. HASAN:
22 Q. Well, Mr. Blagojevic, we just looked at your order and it was for
23 this platoon to fire at 0300 hours on 6th July to fire air bombs, and we
24 saw the report to the Drina Corps confirming that.
25 Now, the UNPROFOR observes at that same time rockets landing
1 within the area of Potocari which is where you ordered those air bombs.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
3 MR. LUKIC: I'm afraid might be confusion because in B/C/S it
4 says not rockets but projectiles, "projektila," so the witness might be
5 so [Overlapping speakers] ...
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course --
7 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] ... direct your attention --
8 JUDGE ORIE: -- I do not know whether the word "rockets" receives
9 a different interpretation. But if -- unfortunately I can't check that
10 because if I say "rockets" I am unable to hear what the B/C/S booth will
11 tell me, but perhaps they could tell me how they translate it when I use
12 the word "rockets." And I move for that purpose, for one second, to the
13 B/C/S booth.
14 Yes. Thank you for that information. The B/C/S booth confirmed
15 that they interpreted my use of the English word "rocket" into "rocket"
16 in B/C/S as well.
17 So let's just ignore for a second what it says about "projektila"
18 in the B/C/S.
19 Witness, if you would read for the word "projektila" the word
20 "rocket," would that change anything in your answer, whether you could
21 confirm that this is about the same firing as was ordered for 3.00 in the
22 morning on that date?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it seems to me that
24 projectile and rocket can be synonymous, correspond to one another. I
25 don't know. I'm not much of an expert either, but I think that could be
1 the case.
2 However, on the basis of this, this formulation, as this report
3 is written, I cannot accept that it refers to the Bratunac Brigade
4 because there's no reference to that. How can I accept that? And it's
5 not exactly stated --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you were not asked to accept anything. You
7 were asked whether you could confirm that it was about the same and
8 apparently you cannot confirm that. That's your answer.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it's not the same. I mean,
10 it's written --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, did I understand your answer well that you
12 cannot confirm that this is about the same firing as you ordered in that
13 other document for 3.00 in the morning at that same morning?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I cannot confirm that this is
15 from -- well, maybe it's from somewhere else. How should I know?
16 JUDGE ORIE: You've answered my question.
17 Please proceed, Ms. Hasan.
18 MS. HASAN:
19 Q. I'm going move onto another area, Mr. Blagojevic, and --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan, could the B/C/S being given to CLSS for
21 final verification of the accuracy of the translation.
22 MS. HASAN: We'll do so.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed.
24 MS. HASAN:
25 Q. Mr. Blagojevic, your superiors in July 1995 entrusted you with
1 commanding various units, including units of the MUP, Main Staff units,
2 in the phase of the search operation that took place after the fall of
3 Srebrenica and before you were deployed to Zepa; isn't that right?
4 A. No.
5 MS. HASAN: Let's look at P1694, please.
6 Q. So this is a Drina Corps proposal, and it's from
7 Colonel Ignjat Milanovic, who we know is no longer alive. And it's dated
8 15th of July, 1995. Relates to the engagement of forces in searching the
9 terrain facing Zepa and proposal. And it provides in the first
10 paragraph, last line:
11 "The Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade is searching the terrain as
12 ordered and is about to come out on the ordered line."
13 And he orders, if we look down, item 4:
14 "The Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade shall continue to search the
15 terrain, clear up the battle ground on the Bratunac-Konjevic Polje-Kasaba
16 axis, and create a reserve (because they currently do not have any) for
17 engagement at request."
18 And then comes his proposal. And his proposal is that:
19 "The 1st Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade commander be authorised
20 and appointed as commander of all forces engaged in the search of terrain
21 and clearing up the battleground east of the road (the Kasaba-Drinjaca
22 road) because we do not have anyone in the KDK whom we could assign to
23 the task."
24 And, in fact, Mr. Blagojevic, this proposal was implemented,
25 wasn't it?
1 A. Not correct.
2 Q. You would agree with me that KDK stands for the command of the
3 Drina Corps?
4 A. I do.
5 Q. And if we now look at P1696, this is a daily combat report that
6 goes out in your name on the 16th of July, and again we have for this
7 document a handwritten and a teletyped version of it. And what it
8 provides is it reports to the Drina Corps that, under item 2 -- can you
9 see that well, Mr. Blagojevic?
10 A. Well, it's all right.
11 MS. HASAN: Maybe we can just zoom in on the second -- thank you.
12 Q. So it provides, and this is midway through the English paragraph:
13 "During the day, the brigade commander visited all units which
14 are blocking the enemy retreat (the 1st Milici Light Infantry Brigade,
15 units of the 65th Protection Motorised Regiment, parts of the MUP, and
16 the 5th Engineering Battalion), defined their tasks and organised their
17 joint action and communications ..."
18 Are you following?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And you don't deny, in fact, that this accurately reflects your
21 role, do you?
22 A. This is a supposition.
23 Q. Mr. Blagojevic, I think my question was quite clear. It -- this
24 report, in your name, provides that you went and visited all these units
25 and that you tasked them and organised their joint action. That's
1 accurate, isn't it? This is what you did.
2 A. Well, I've already told you, this is a supposition. This did not
3 happen. It was written but it did not happen in practice. So it is a
4 supposition. In the military, suppositions do exist. I can give you a
5 more extensive explanation, if necessary.
6 Q. I'll move on, Mr. Blagojevic.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Are you -- may I ask you the following, Witness.
8 Are you really saying that such a report to the Drina Corps
9 Command would be not true? It says that the brigade commander visited
10 all units during that day. That this is not true what was reported to
11 the Drina Corps Command? Is that what you are saying?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it didn't happen. It's a
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That means that you reported to the Drina Corps
15 Command a fact which was not true; correct.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Because I was not in that
17 role. If you look at the order that I received on the following day, you
18 will see that that is the truth. And I immediately received that order
19 because -- actually, on that very same day I received an order, on the
20 16th, to organise movement towards Zepa and to go --
21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We didn't hear the end of
22 the sentence.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So that would be that.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could you repeat the rest -- the remainder of the
25 sentence, the end of it. The interpreters didn't hear you.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm saying that on that same day I
2 received orders from the superior command to organise the unit and to
3 move towards Zepa. On the 17th, in the morning, I organised the units
4 and I moved towards Zepa. I did personally. As for this report that
5 we're speaking about, I wrote it personally.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And you are saying you were conveying an untrue
7 information to your superior command; yes?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's a supposition. In
9 military terms, supposition; that is to say, a situation is referred to
10 but that was not the actual outcome. The actual outcome was quite
11 different. And that is reflected in the engagement of my unit on that
12 day, or rather the following day.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
14 [Prosecution counsel confer]
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Ms. Hasan.
16 MS. HASAN:
17 Q. Mr. Blagojevic, did you refuse to take command?
18 A. I never received it.
19 Q. Now, you mentioned that you received --
20 A. Allow me, please. I somehow think that I'm giving incomplete
21 answers because Milanovic, Ignjat, lieutenant-colonel, is not in a
22 position to order me to do anything as brigade commander. He can make a
23 proposal. It is only the corps commander or the deputy corps commander
24 that can give me orders. Milanovic, Ignjat was an operations officer, so
25 a lower-ranking operations officer in the corps.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, let's take it step by step.
2 Did you visit all the units which were blocking the enemy
3 retreat? And I take them one by one. Did you visit the Milici Light
4 Infantry Brigade units -- no, the Milici Light Infantry Brigade. Did you
5 visit that brigade?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not.
7 JUDGE ORIE: The 65th Protection Motorised Regiment, did you
8 visit that?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Did you visit parts of the MUP?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not.
12 JUDGE ORIE: You did not define any tasks for these units?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Did you organise their joint action and
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Because I don't have the
17 possibility to do that either.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Well, sometimes people are doing things which they
19 are supposed not to be able to do. But I just want to focus on facts on
20 what you did.
21 So you're sending a report to your command just full of lies;
22 that is, you write what you've done and you hadn't done it.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those are not lies. Those were
24 suppositions. In military term, suppositions.
25 JUDGE ORIE: If the report would have said, "I intend to visit,"
1 or "I am preparing to define tasks," then it's clear that you haven't
2 done it yet, but the way in which it is presented here clearly says this
3 is what I did. And if you didn't do it, then it's not the truth. And
4 whatever you -- if you repeat five times --
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I did not do all that.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But then the report is completely false
7 because it states that you were doing things. And whether you call it
8 suppositions or whatever, the report says "this is what I did," and you
9 didn't do it. That's your testimony.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Hasan.
12 MS. HASAN:
13 Q. Mr. Blagojevic, isn't it the case that the only reason you claim
14 that this is a -- as you call it, a supposition, that you didn't, in
15 fact, do what is reported here to the Drina Corps Command is because you
16 knew -- you know that that search operation that was conducted rounded up
17 Muslim prisoners which were killed?
18 A. Not correct. I had an order from the corps command to scour the
19 terrain. That was my order and I complied with it. I had that order.
20 You have it. You can show it. I searched the terrain with my own
21 brigade. That's what I did.
22 Q. You have testified that you -- and it's I believe also in your
23 statement that you received an order to engage your units and you
24 yourself moved to Zepa on the 17th of July; is that correct?
25 A. Correct.
1 MS. HASAN: If we could briefly look at P1581, and this is under
2 seal so it should not be broadcast.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan, you referred to the statement. Could you
4 assist us in pointing out what paragraph.
5 MS. HASAN: Your Honour, on page 4, paragraph 14, the witness
6 provides towards the end of that paragraph at that time, and that time is
7 referring to when four underage children were taken to the
8 Bratunac Brigade, that: "At that time, I was already with the majority
9 of the Bratunac Brigade on the positions towards the enclave of Zepa."
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I now better understand what you referred to.
11 I didn't see an order, I didn't see a date, but please proceed. But a
12 movement to Zepa, I see that in paragraph 14.
13 Please proceed.
14 MS. HASAN:
15 Q. So this is an intercepted communication from the 17th of July at
16 1220 hours. And it -- the communication involves Badem, which you
17 understand to be the code-name of the Bratunac Brigade; isn't that
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. Micic and X. Now if we just -- in the English, it's towards the
21 end of the page. Micic says:
22 "I am setting off," and there's a question mark there, "with the
23 last one. Blagojevic is at the head."
24 Micic continues:
25 "Blagojevic is at the head."
1 If we turn the page in the English and scroll down in the B/C/S
2 just so I can see if we're ...
3 Micic continues and he says he'll pass on the information that
4 Blagojevic has set off at the head. Micic says:
5 "Okay then."
6 And then there's a repetition that Blagojevic is at the head.
7 They're having troubles --
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You should move back in B/C/S one page.
9 MS. HASAN: Participant X was having trouble hearing the
10 communication. So there's this repetition that Blagojevic at the head,
11 and what Micic says on page 1, if we can go back to page 1 in the
12 English, Micic says towards the top half of the page:
13 "Micic: 400 have set off.
14 "X: 400.
15 "Micic: Yes, at 1130 hours, the start of the column.
16 "X: What?
17 "Micic: 1130 hours."
18 And they go on to talk about how many buses. Now, this is a
19 reference to you being at the head of a column that left for Zepa; isn't
20 that correct?
21 A. Correct, correct.
22 Q. And would that be approximately the time that you would have left
23 to Zepa?
24 A. Sometime around noon, as far as I can remember. On the 17th,
1 Q. How long did you remain in the Zepa area?
2 A. Some 10 to 15 days. All the time while the activities lasted. I
3 mean, the activities surrounding Zepa.
4 Q. Did you return to Bratunac in the interim during those 10 to 15
6 A. I don't think so. I had a tent in the forest. That's where I
7 spent the nights.
8 MS. HASAN: Could I just -- could we look at 65 ter 32298,
10 Q. And I'll just ask you this, Mr. Blagojevic: Before you left to
11 Zepa on the 14th, 15th, 16th of July, did you spend your nights at your
12 apartment in Bratunac town?
13 A. No, I didn't spend those nights in my apartment in Bratunac if
14 when you say "an apartment," you mean a normal apartment. All the time I
15 resided next to my command office room. I had a little room where I
16 slept next to the command office.
17 Q. And, Mr. Blagojevic, just so we're clear, I'm going to --
18 MS. HASAN: If I can ask the assistance of the usher to hand the
19 witness a pen to mark this document. This is an aerial photograph of
20 Bratunac town. And actually, if we could zoom out so we can see the
21 entire image.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan, have you verified where north, east,
23 west, and south is? Because it sometimes confuses us to find later out
24 that north is at the bottom or west is at the top. Do you have any --
25 could you assist the witness in the orientation of this aerial image.
1 MS. HASAN: Yes.
2 Q. Witness, perhaps we can start this way. Are you able to identify
3 where the Bratunac Brigade headquarters is?
4 A. If this here is the Kaolin facility, where this road ends --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please refrain from marking, to start
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A pen was provided so I thought
8 that maybe -- very well.
9 JUDGE ORIE: You are invited to mark anything once are you
10 specifically requested to mark something. So the marking has now been
11 removed again. I think you pointed at the rather large -- large
12 structure at the right bottom part of this aerial image.
13 And perhaps we could -- if -- is there any way that we could
14 assist the witness but using the cursor without it yet being marked?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that would be better.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So let's see -- you see the cursor is now on
17 the right bottom corner where there's a large structure which apparently
18 consists of four maybe holes, I do not know, but at least four clear long
19 structures and two just at a 90-degree angle to them, down of it. What
20 would that be?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That would be the Kaolin tiles
22 factory, I believe. Part of that factory was where the command of the
23 Bratunac Brigade was accommodated.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan, you proceed.
25 MS. HASAN:
1 Q. Witness, can I actually ask you to mark the command of the
2 Bratunac Brigade on this image.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Now can you use the pen.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could the usher assist.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Madam Usher, could you assist?
7 Because you're now specifically asked to mark the brigade's
8 command with the pen that was provided to you. You can do it on the
10 MS. HASAN:
11 Q. You can maybe perhaps put a K so we understand that that's
13 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it first has to be marked anyhow.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now this is moving.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here, in the front part. Although
17 the sign that I drew should be a bit higher. It's lower than I meant it
18 to be originally.
19 JUDGE ORIE: It can be erased again and then you can mark it
20 again. Wait for a second.
21 Madam Usher, could you again assist the witness. Could you
22 please mark with a clear K the command? And perhaps put a circle around
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It doesn't stay where I want it to
25 stay. It gets lower.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll try again. We'll try again. If you wait
2 for a second, it will be erased again. And then please, next time put it
3 there where you wish to put it.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Is now okay?
5 JUDGE ORIE: Well -- now you carefully consider where to put the
6 K, the exact spot, and then please do it.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Wait for the usher, please.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Again, not the right spot. It's a
9 bit too low, but it's round about there. I would prefer it to be a
10 little bit higher in the photo.
11 JUDGE ORIE: That's hereby on the record.
12 Ms. Hasan, could you please proceed.
13 MS. HASAN:
14 Q. Mr. Blagojevic, could you put an arrow and mark the road that
15 leads to Konjevic Polje.
16 A. I believe that this is the road.
17 Q. Could you write the letters KP next to that arrow, please.
18 A. [Marks]
19 Q. And --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Can I just check that this is still marking on the
21 picture itself, because it looks as if it is -- although marking on the
22 screen, I do not know how this finally will be.
23 The witness marked the road which goes -- which leaves the
24 picture at the south -- or at least at the bottom left part in a diagonal
1 Could you please put the KP again but a little bit higher then.
2 If we have two KPs, that doesn't harm, I would say.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.
4 JUDGE ORIE: There we are.
5 Please proceed, Ms. Hasan.
6 MS. HASAN: And, Your Honours, the -- Konjevic Polje is due west
7 from Bratunac town.
8 Q. Mr. Blagojevic, could you then also put an arrow on the road that
9 leads to direction Srebrenica. And if you could mark it on the image
11 A. It should be here.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please mark it on the picture itself, not
13 in the grey area next to it.
14 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 MS. HASAN:
17 Q. And just underneath the arrow, still on the picture, could you
18 put the letter S, please.
19 A. [Marks].
20 MS. HASAN: Just for the record, the witness has marked an S on
21 top of the arrow.
22 Q. Mr. Blagojevic, could you now circle your residence in Bratunac
23 in July 1995?
24 A. Very well.
25 Q. I understand that that's where you say you spent your nights in
1 July 1995, but you do have an apartment in Bratunac town, don't you?
2 That's what I'd like you to mark.
3 A. At that time, I did not have an apartment. If you look at a
4 document, I'm sure you have it in your archives, you will see that the
5 apartment that my predecessor had used on my order was sealed and empty.
6 You have that document. There was nobody living in that apartment at
7 that time.
8 I wish to say something else. It was only sometime towards the
9 end of August that I reactivated that apartment when I returned from Zepa
10 that year.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Just for the record, Ms. Hasan, when you
12 invited the witness to mark his apartment, he put a circle around the K
13 which he earlier marked, although a little bit too low, for the command.
14 Please proceed.
15 MS. HASAN:
16 Q. So in August and subsequent to August, you unsealed your
17 apartment. Could you mark where that apartment is in Bratunac town,
19 A. I believe it's here. Again, this is moving and my pen keeps
20 sliding down. It's about 5 or 6, or 7 millimetres higher. This is where
21 the marking should actually be.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 MS. HASAN: I'd offer the marked image --
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please, I just want you to know, I
25 want to be precise in saying that the apartment, as the apartment to
1 which I came and where I was, started functioning as my apartment as of
2 the end of August 1995. Not before that.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you told us already, Mr. Blagojevic, and we're
4 carefully listening to every word you say.
5 Mr. Registrar --
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 JUDGE ORIE: -- the aerial image marked by the witness receives
9 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P7264, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence with the caveat that
11 the witness corrected slightly some of the markings.
12 Ms. Hasan, in ten minutes it will be time for the break, and two
13 minutes ago you had used your two hours.
14 MS. HASAN: Your Honour, it has been a bit slower than I
15 anticipated. I would say with your indulgence if could I have 15
16 minutes, I can complete the area.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then try. But next time, try to not spend five
18 minutes in court telling us where the road to Konjevic Polje is. That's
19 typically a matter which you could agree upon with the Defence because
20 that -- I couldn't imagine that there would be any dispute about these
21 kind of things.
22 Please proceed and try to keep the pace.
23 MS. HASAN:
24 Q. Mr. Blagojevic, you recall that the command post of your
25 1st Battalion was located in the Magasici area?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And that's along the Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road, isn't it?
3 A. A bit further away from that road.
4 Q. And it's less than 400 metres, you'd agree, from Glogova?
5 A. Around half a kilometre away from that road.
6 Q. Now, when you were -- came back from Zepa, you were at the
7 brigade command in September and October 1995?
8 A. I was always at the brigade command. The question is where that
9 command was.
10 Q. In September and October, you attended meetings at the brigade
11 command in Bratunac town; isn't that right?
12 A. Yes, it could happen. My whole brigade was in the zone of the
13 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, so that could have happened, yes.
14 MS. HASAN: I'd like to look at P1516.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, in view of one of your previous answers,
16 you said, well, the question is where that command was. Did it move from
17 the place you marked on the aerial image to any other location in the
18 months Ms. Hasan referred to? That's September/October. Or was it still
19 on the same location as you have marked?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The infrastructure remained in one
21 place in the Kaolin tile manufacturing company, but I organised my
22 command in a different area, in the area of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps,
23 and I took all the necessary equipment, including the communications
24 equipment, with me.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan, please proceed.
1 MS. HASAN:
2 Q. You see here, Mr. Blagojevic, this is the journal of -- reports
3 of meetings of the 1st Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade, and this is an
4 excerpt of it.
5 MS. HASAN: If we can turn to page 2 in the B/C/S and English,
7 Q. And this is a record of the working meeting of commander with
8 Command Staff and battalion commanders. And this meeting took place on
9 16 October 1995 at 0800 hours. It starts off: "Colonel Blagojevic..."
10 You attended that meeting?
11 A. Probably. That's what it says here, yes.
12 Q. And if we look down, you will see the name Nikolic. Do you see
14 A. I do.
15 Q. Now, that was Momir Nikolic; isn't that correct?
16 A. Possibly. Let's assume that it's him.
17 Q. Well, there's evidence in this case that it's Momir Nikolic. And
18 he reports at this meeting, the very bottom in the English:
19 "We are currently engaged in tasks issued by the Army of
20 Republika Srpska Main Staff (hygiene and sanitation measures)," in your
21 language, "asanacija."
22 Do you recall Momir Nikolic reporting at this meeting that tasks
23 had been issued by the Main Staff, the task of "asanacija"?
24 A. To tell you the truth, I don't seem to remember. But I can
25 explain why.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Well, Witness, if you don't remember, then you don't
3 Please proceed, Ms. Hasan.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Allow me just to say this because
5 it's very important. It's very important.
6 As far as Momir Nikolic is concerned, everything is important.
7 Allow me, please, to say this.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if it is about the question, that is, whether
9 have you any recollection, you may explain. But if it's beyond that, to
10 say --
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Certainly.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed. Yes?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If we look at the agenda up here,
14 above the name, Nikolic, it's quite clear what the agenda of that meeting
15 was. That's very important.
16 And now what is written here? I don't know. Sanitisation is a
17 normal combat operation as far as I'm concerned. It is very well-known
18 what kind of measures that entails, and that was not --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, it is not relevant for the answer to your
20 question. You said, I don't remember. Okay. That's it. And when you
21 start drawing all kind of conclusions, we are more interested in what you
22 do remember and what the facts are.
23 Please proceed, Ms. Hasan.
24 MS. HASAN:
25 Q. Asanacija, Mr. Blagojevic, you knew that that was the name for
1 the reburial operation that was taking place in the Bratunac area where
2 bodies were removed from existing graves, taken through Bratunac town,
3 passed your command, passed your apartment, and buried elsewhere. You
4 knew that, didn't you? That couldn't have escaped you.
5 A. I didn't know that. How can that be sanitisation? What do you
6 mean by "sanitisation"? That, what are you saying now, how can I agree
7 with you on that? How can that mean sanitisation? Then that is
9 Q. And you agree, then, that re-sanitisation meant the reburial of
10 hundreds and hundreds of bodies to conceal the crimes that had been
12 A. I cannot speak to you about that because I don't have any facts
14 MS. HASAN: Your Honours, I have one final matter to go into.
15 We'll just take ... I think can I complete it before the break.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's time for the break. But if you say can
17 you complete it within a few minutes, then you're invited to do that.
18 MS. HASAN: And for this, could we briefly go into private
20 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
21 [Private session]
11 Pages 33597-33598 redacted. Private session.
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
13 I do understand that Mr. Mladic is consulting with counsel. I
14 have -- first of all, we'll take a break. We'd like to see you back
15 after the break, assuming, Mr. Lukic, that you have further questions for
16 the witness.
17 MR. LUKIC: Yes, I do, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'd like to see you back in 20 minutes. You
19 may follow the usher.
20 [The witness stands down]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Then I'd briefly deal with two short matters, the
22 one ...
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that P7263 is marked for
25 identification but has been uploaded now under what 65 ter number?
1 That's the better version, both handwriting and ...
2 MS. HASAN: It's the same 65 ter number, 04271.
3 JUDGE ORIE: P7 --
4 MS. HASAN: 4271. Yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: P7263 is admitted into evidence.
6 I further received a short report on the verification of some of
7 the transcript of the witness's testimony in the Karadzic case. It -- I
8 advise you to look at it carefully because it may make a difference.
9 There is some relevant corrections in that transcript, so that you don't
10 miss it.
11 We'll ...
12 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
13 JUDGE ORIE: It will be forwarded to you by Mr. Registrar without
15 I will -- we'll take a break, and we'll resume at 25 minutes past
17 --- Recess taken at 12.03 p.m.
18 --- On resuming at 12.25 p.m.
19 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that the parties have received the message
20 by CLSS on the verification of the -- I think it would be fair to the
21 witness that I briefly inform about the proposed changes.
22 Ms. Hasan.
23 MS. HASAN: Just on that, Your Honours, we have listened again to
24 the audio. And in respect of the first change that's proposed, we
25 actually still disagree with what CLSS has come back with. And perhaps
1 Mr. Lukic can help, because it's recorded as they say it should read he
2 represented the Posavina command when, in fact, the B/C/S words are --
3 Mr. Lukic, that's your cue.
4 MR. LUKIC: Thanks. It's "ispred posavine komande," and it
5 should be actually "ispred predpotcinjene komande."
6 JUDGE ORIE: Which means?
7 MR. LUKIC: Superior command.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. I'll leave that portion then out when I
9 inform the witness. It's -- it's a different command apparently than his
10 own command.
11 MR. LUKIC: Yes, that's -- [Overlapping speakers] ...
12 ORIE: And I leave that out --
13 MR. LUKIC: Exactly what this --
14 JUDGE ORIE: -- until that has been settled.
15 [The witness takes the stand]
16 JUDGE ORIE: But of course the other part both from the first and
17 the second, there's no dispute about the remaining corrections?
18 MS. HASAN: No, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, it's not a finally settled matter
20 but a proposal. Therefore, I'll limit myself to -- to what is also not
21 in dispute between the parties.
22 Mr. Blagojevic, you may remember that yesterday some portions of
23 your Karadzic testimony was put to you. It was about the order given by
24 Colonel Lazic. Quite a few questions were put to you which, at a certain
25 moment, made the Chamber decide that we would verify whether the
1 interpretation of the words you had spoken was correct or not.
2 In two respects - and it is certainly relevant and important -
3 there is now a proposal for a correction of the interpretation. There is
4 even a third one but the parties are still quarreling about that -- well,
5 the parties are not quarreling about it. The parties agree about it.
6 But at least it has to be verified further with the -- with what we call
7 CLSS; that is, those responsible for interpretation and translation.
8 But I already read a portion to you. The interpretation of your
9 words as used yesterday was, and I quote:
10 "Because of the oral order I received from Colonel Lazic, he was
12 Now has changed into:
13 "Because of what you read, pursuant to the oral order of
14 Colonel Lazic."
15 So that's now the interpretation on which we'll rely.
16 There was another portion which was corrected, or at least
17 there's a proposal to correct it as well, and that is the part where you
18 were recorded in the English language as having said:
19 "It was not my decision. I was implementing an immediate order."
20 The proposal now is to change that in:
21 "It was not my decision. It was an implementation of an
22 immediate order."
23 And I think in all fairness I wanted to inform you about this
24 because the questions put to you were very much around the words you had
25 used, and since you apparently had problems in accepting what you were
1 recorded as having said, the Chamber found it important enough to have it
2 verified and now informs you that corrections are about to be made.
3 Having said this, we'll continue to hear your evidence.
4 Mr. Lukic, if you're ready, please proceed.
5 MR. LUKIC: We are ready, Your Honours. Thank you.
6 Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:
7 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Blagojevic.
8 A. Good day.
9 Q. I will just briefly summarise the corrections from the Karadzic
10 transcript that we heard just now, and we understand that you were right
11 in not accepting the way things had been put to you. However, my first
12 question -- actually, I'll start from the end of today's
14 You mentioned Momir Nikolic and the military police. Tell us,
15 what kind of control did you have over Momir Nikolic on those days
16 generally, if at all?
17 A. Over a longer period of time but at the time that we were
18 discussing here today, I practically had no command control over
19 Momir Nikolic and likewise the use of the military police. The platoon
20 of the military police.
21 Q. Who made decisions at that time on how the military police
22 platoon was supposed to be used?
23 A. At that lower level, it could have been Nikolic's decisions.
24 Q. Thank you. Yesterday, there were references to the area of
25 responsibility. It is a fact that on some documents that term can be
2 In the area of the municipality of Bratunac, you, as commander of
3 the 1st Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade, were you in charge of
4 maintaining law and order in Bratunac and in other populated areas in the
5 municipality of Bratunac?
6 A. No, I was not.
7 Q. Whose task was that?
8 A. In my view, how I understand that situation, primarily it should
9 have been the task of the organised authorities in town, number one, and
10 also the police station of the MUP. The civilian police, that is. And
11 they have organised entities for that. That is to say, they have
12 organised police units that ensure that.
13 Q. Which area? How deep? How wide? What was the area that you
14 were responsible for?
15 A. In the period that we are discussing, I had a concrete task. The
16 brigade was in defence. I had a defence area. I was carrying out
17 defence operations until the moment when I received orders for active
18 attack operations, and that was the 2nd of July, 1995.
19 The area of defence of the Bratunac Brigade means the deployment
20 of the front line units facing the enemy. Since there was a shortage of
21 manpower, we were mainly based on the front line because we could not
22 have had a second or a third line because it would have required more
23 manpower. Then also the position of the command posts of the logistics
24 units, all of that belongs to the zone of responsibility of the brigade.
25 So if my command post was in Kaolin - the factory that I
1 mentioned a moment ago - then that is the area I took up together with my
2 units and I was responsible for that area. Beyond that, no. I was under
3 the regulations of others who were there at that point in time.
4 Just one more sentence. This is a major weakness; namely, that
5 for the Bratunac Brigade, this expertise was never carried out properly.
6 Facts -- or rather, conclusions were made just like that. That is to
7 say, without giving it proper consideration and thought.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could all other
9 microphones please be switched off when the witness is speaking. Thank
11 MR. LUKIC: Can we have on our screens P7253, please.
12 Q. [Interpretation] We'll see the document from the 25th of May,
13 1995, with your name at the bottom of the document before the command of
14 the 1st Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade. That is the day when you were
15 appointed brigade commander, as has established until now.
16 Before this date, where were you?
17 A. I was at the command of the Drina Corps in its operations organ.
18 Q. Which town?
19 A. Vlasenica.
20 Q. We saw that Colonel Lazic came on the same day, arrived in
21 Bratunac. Did you have any preparations for a take-over or did you come
22 on this day from Vlasenica to Bratunac? Do you remember today? Did you
23 have to assume your command straight away?
24 A. I think that all of that happened on that day, the 25th of May,
1 Q. Thank you. We saw a correction in the transcript today. Things
2 were interpreted the way you testified here.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let's look at P7256.
4 Q. This is another document which was issued on the --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, may I just clarify. It's on the two
6 points that a correction was made. That may not cover all of what the
7 witness said. I just wanted to have that clearly on the record, that
8 it's on these two points, not on other portions of the testimony of the
10 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I was not precise enough.
11 That's exactly what I should have said.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
13 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
14 Q. [Interpretation] We have a document sent by Mico Gavric, chief of
15 artillery. In his document, he says that:
16 "At 1907 hours, we opened fire on Srebrenica on Colonel Lazic's
18 Do you remember whether on that same day, when you arrived
19 Bratunac, you saw Mico Gavric? If you can remember, of course.
20 A. I suppose I did see him. We were supposed to see each other that
21 day. He was an important member of the brigade, in addition to all the
22 other battalion commanders.
23 Q. Tell us, if you remember, where did the hand-over of duties take
24 place? Was the unit lined up?
25 A. No, the unit wasn't lined up. It took place in the ops room, in
1 a large room, which was used to process and analyse documents; i.e., it
2 was used as the place where the brigade command worked, the largest room
3 in the building.
4 Q. If you had ordered Gavric to open fire, would he have written
5 that he had received his orders from Colonel Lazic?
6 A. No. He would not have mentioned Lazic if he had received his
7 orders from me. It's a -- very clear because it follows the principle of
9 Q. Thank you. On that day, the 25th of May, before you arrived, did
10 the Bratunac Brigade have a commander; and, if so, who was that?
11 A. It did have a commander, Lieutenant-Colonel Slavko Ognjenovic.
12 Q. Did Mr. Ognjenovic attend the take-over of duties or the
13 hand-over of duties?
14 A. Yes, I believe so.
15 Q. And on behalf of the Drina Corps, who was there?
16 A. I believe that Colonel Lazic was there. I don't remember anybody
18 MR. LUKIC: Can we have another document? I don't have it
19 recorded that we have P number for that one. It's 65 ter 06025.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is P7255.
21 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Q. [Interpretation] We can see a document drafted on the same day,
23 25th of May, 1995. Under 1, you report that you opened fire on
24 Srebrenica based on the verbal order of Colonel Lazic. It says here that
25 two shells fell near the Domavija feature. What purpose did the Domavija
1 feature serve? What was that feature?
2 A. The brigade command was privy to the intelligence according to
3 which that feature was used by the highest command in the enclave and
4 that it was operating from there. That's the intelligence we had at the
6 Q. When you say "the biggest command in the enclave," what do you
8 A. The command of their division, the 28th Division, yes.
9 Q. Thank you. You were shown what Mr. Gavric said in the Popovic
10 case. You were told -- or it was read to you, rather, that Gavric said
11 that you had ordered him to fire those two projectiles. Only a few pages
12 have been uploaded from that transcript. That's why I'm going to call up
13 1D05375. We'll see a broader context, or rather a bit more of what was
14 said in the courtroom on that day.
15 Looking from line 3 on this page --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan is on her feet.
17 MS. HASAN: At line 7, counsel says that it was read to him that
18 Gavric said that "you had ordered him to fire those two projectiles."
19 That's actually not what -- does not reflect what I read to the witness.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Could you then please give the exact -- if there's
21 dispute about that, could you give exact page and line reference of
22 yesterday's transcript, Mr. Lukic.
23 MR. LUKIC: I will have to use some time for that since I did not
24 record exact row -- lines from the transcript.
25 JUDGE ORIE: I think it would be wise where --
1 MR. LUKIC: It's the same page.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Where Ms. Hasan is quoting in yesterday's
3 transcript, I would look at 33547 and/or 33548, where the -- where, I
4 think, Ms. Hasan was reading.
5 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Or am I wrong, Ms. Hasan?
7 MS. HASAN: Your Honour, I'm just looking it up myself.
8 MR. LUKIC: But we don't have those pages. We just have
9 temporary transcript on our screens.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But that is exactly the portion we have now in
11 the document in front of us --
12 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] ... I don't know -- only I
13 don't have that exact lines.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- which you uploaded separately.
15 MR. LUKIC: I don't have exact lines what Ms. Hasan read.
16 JUDGE ORIE: I looked in yesterday's transcript and apparently
17 we're now looking at, as my colleague tells me, at the same page from
18 which Ms. Hasan quoted yesterday.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: If you look at the transcript what you have
20 uploaded, Mr. Lukic, you will find that. Just there. From line 18 on
21 that page.
22 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Q. [Interpretation] I'm going to read what was read to you, and you
24 will receive the correct interpretation of my words.
25 [In English] I quote:
1 "Q. Colonel Blagojevic was in command at this time. What was his
2 position in May 1995, May 25th?
3 "A. It so happened that he was there on that day.
4 "Q. In what capacity?"
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can we scroll down.
6 MR. LUKIC:
7 Q. "Q. He was the commander of the Bratunac Brigade."
8 MR. LUKIC: But I would ask -- kindly ask to see the top of the
9 page, line 3. Your Honour, I tried to start to read from the end of the
10 row, line 3. And I quote from the question:
11 "Q. It's your testimony, is it not, that you sought the authority
12 from the Drina Corps?
13 "A. What authority?
14 "Q. The authority to respond by firing at the safe area.
15 "A. I didn't seek it. There was a person from the Drina Corps
16 there. It says it was Colonel Lazic. What I shared with you is my
17 opinion. I did not receive a written document."
18 Then in line 22, it was recorded that the witness, in this trial,
19 said he was "the commander of the Bratunac Brigade," speaking of
20 Mr. Blagojevic.
21 But on the next page, and I kindly ask to have the next page on
22 our screen, at line 6, there was international -- intervention by
23 Ms. Nikolic. It says:
24 "Your Honours, just an intervention on the translation ... the
25 witness did not say that Blagojevic was the commander of the Bratunac
1 Brigade, but that rather on that day he was given the duty and accepted
2 the duty of the commander of the Bratunac Brigade."
3 And then in line 12, Judge Kwon asked:
4 "Are you happy with the explanation of Ms. Nikolic?"
5 And Mr. Thayer said:
6 "Absolutely. I understand what happened on the 25th of May,
7 Mr. President."
8 [Interpretation] So, Mr. Blagojevic, do you remember, as you sit
9 here today, when was it that you effectively took over the command over
10 the Bratunac Brigade? It was on the 25th but what time of day was it?
11 When did you start issuing your first orders? Do you remember.
12 A. The hand-over procedure lasted from perhaps 10.00 in the morning
13 until the -- noon of that day. After that, I was supposed to start
14 working in my role as the brigade commander.
15 Q. We can see that Colonel Lazic issued an order to open fire at
16 7.00 in the evening that same evening. Was that in keeping with the
17 regulations? What would you have to say to that?
18 A. I believe that it was in compliance with the regulations.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 A. Because he represented the superior command.
21 Q. Furthermore, in his testimony, Gavric said, on line 17 on the
22 same page that we see before us, I quote:
23 [In English] "That's why Colonel Lazic arrived. Now, I just
24 realised when I rewound the whole film, he probably arrived to actually
25 hand over the duties in the Bratunac Brigade on that day."
1 And there is continuation of this on page 6 of the document we
2 uploaded, which is 1D5375, and we need line 15 and further.
3 And Mr. Gavric said:
4 "I believe that on that day, Colonel Lazic came on behalf of the
5 command of the Drina Corps and carried out the change over of the brigade
7 From line 19, Judge Kwon asked Mr. Gavric, and I quote:
8 "Mr. Gavric, did you ever receive an order either from
9 Colonel Blagojevic or from Colonel Lazic to fire a shell on the town of
11 "THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I personally don't remember
12 whether I received an order to convey an order, whether it was ordered
13 directly by Colonel Blagojevic or somebody else. I really can't
14 remember. I really don't know."
15 So, Your Honours, to have full record on the testimony of
16 Mr. Gavric on this issue, we would offer 1D5375 into evidence, please.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
18 MS. HASAN: Your Honour, this is --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Hasan.
20 MS. HASAN: This is the testimony that's just been read out. I
21 don't know if it's -- I understood the practice to be that if it's read
22 in the record, that's sufficient, but I leave that for your --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps it --
24 MS. HASAN: -- consideration.
25 JUDGE ORIE: If it's just a quote, perhaps that's the original --
1 MR. LUKIC: All we need is quotations we just read. If you think
2 it's enough, Your Honours, we would be satisfied just have read these
4 JUDGE ORIE: I was wondering whether, for example, the lines you
5 did not read, Mr. Lukic, that Mr. Blagojevic happened to be there is
6 relevant as well, especially in the context of the whole of it, and that
7 is found - where was it? - I think it would for those reasons better to
8 have the entirety of ...
9 Therefore, Mr. Registrar, the number would be.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D966, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Is admitted into evidence.
12 The portion I referred to, Mr. Lukic, was the portion just prior
13 to what you started reading, 26.539, is at page -- line 18 and following,
14 the question being: "Colonel Blagojevic was in command at this time,"
15 which was then, of course, we have heard the follow-up of that. And then
16 the answer was: "It so happened that he was there on that day."
17 But we have now the entirety of this sequence in evidence, so you
18 may proceed.
19 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Blagojevic, this is what I'd like to ask
21 you: Do you remember whether on that day, the 25th, you went to the
22 positions where the artillery pieces were and whether you saw Gavric
23 there, or do you think that you saw him at the command? What is your
24 recollection? Where do you think that you saw Gavric, if you remember at
1 A. I only could have encountered him at the command. As for
2 positions, especially artillery position, I didn't go there on that day.
3 Q. Thank you. Let us now take a look at P7257, please. This
4 document of the 26th of May, 1995, has already been shown to you. It a
5 document of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Command 28th Division.
6 They are reporting about two mortar shells, 82 millimetres, and it is
7 stated that Suceska was shelled using shells from an 82-millimetre
8 mortar. How far away was Suceska from your positions?
9 A. If I can assess this, the closest point from my defence lines to
10 Suceska was perhaps 12 to 15 kilometres as the crow flies, if my
11 recollection is correct. It's an estimate.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, you said that the documents say that
13 Suceska shelled. It says the area of Suceska, which may be relevant in
14 this context.
15 If the witness would tell us exactly what was the closest point
16 on his defence lines, then with a map the parties could try to seek an
17 agreement on what the distance was rather than to rely on recollection,
18 if it is correct.
19 What was your closest position where you said it was perhaps 12
20 to 15 kilometres as the crow flies? Which point did you have in mind,
21 which ...
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I had in mind was the area,
23 the area of defence of the 3rd Battalion. And that is well known as
24 Pribicevac here. It is mentioned here as such.
25 JUDGE ORIE: And are you saying that Pribicevac, was that
1 directly at the separation lines?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. It's the very front line of
3 the defence of the area of the 3rd Infantry Battalion.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps the parties, with maps, could try to
5 seek an agreement on what the distances are.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. You may recall just a couple
7 of weeks ago we had a witness point out Suceska on a map that had the
8 front lines on it, so perhaps Ms. Stewart can find that.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if -- especially if any P number would be
10 available so that we can just look at that time from our screens.
11 Please proceed.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Mr. Blagojevic, just tell us this: I know that you're not an
14 artilleryman, but what is the range of an 82-millimetre mortar? Do you
15 remember now at all?
16 A. Well -- well, I'm not sure.
17 Q. If you don't know, just say you don't know.
18 A. About 3 kilometres? Up to 5 kilometres? I don't know. Maximum
19 3 kilometres. Sort of.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that the parties will have available any
22 82-millimetre mortar tables for firing which makes it clear that,
23 depending on what propelling power is used, that the ranges are -- they
24 may even be in evidence. I remember that. I've seen some of it earlier,
25 and try to seek an agreement to the extent relevant here.
1 Please proceed.
2 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan.
4 MS. HASAN: Your Honours, the exhibit Mr. McCloskey was referring
5 to is P7148.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
7 Please proceed.
8 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
9 Q. [Interpretation] Why did I ask you even some of these indubitable
10 questions about mortars and their ranges? Now I'm going to ask you
11 something else. To the best of your knowledge, first of all, did you
12 have 82-millimetre mortars? Do you remember that?
13 A. We did.
14 Q. To the best of your knowledge, from the positions where these
15 mortars were, could you fire at the area of Suceska or rather the village
16 of Bucinovici, if you know where that is.
17 A. I think we never could have done that and we never did that.
18 It's far away.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We now need P7260.
21 Q. Before that, just for the record, I'm going to give a number.
22 The Prosecution showed you -- well, I didn't write the number down, but
23 it was 65 ter 25386. There was a reference to the shelling of Tuzla and
24 the question was whether you knew about that. How far away is Tuzla from
25 the place where you were?
1 A. At least 100 kilometres away.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And the number is now P7258.
3 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. [Interpretation] P7259 was also shown to you.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] So I'd need that on the screen, first
6 of all. I do apologise. I went a bit too far ahead.
7 Q. Again, this is a report. This time this is a UN report on --
8 about the day when you are assuming your duties at the Bratunac Brigade
9 when you are arriving from Vlasenica to Bratunac. And this report says
11 "After the air strikes of 25th May 1995, all safe areas less Zepa
12 have been shelled ..."
13 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Now in relation to that -- I'm not going ask you anything yet
16 until I show you the next document.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now we need P7260.
18 Q. Already in the first paragraph, you can see that on that first
19 day when you assumed command of the Bratunac Brigade on the 25th of May,
21 "In the afternoon hours there were operations carried out by NATO
22 aircraft, which are part of UNPROFOR, against facilities of the Army of
23 Republika Srpska. The Army of Republika Srpska responded adequately by
24 conducting operations against selected targets. However, it is to be
25 expected that Muslim forces in co-operation with UNPROFOR will continue
1 operations against military targets in Republika Srpska."
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Lukic, you added one word, "adequately,"
3 which is not to be seen in this document.
4 MR. LUKIC: Maybe it's not seen in English version, but this is
5 original in B/C/S and it says "adequately." Here, it's the fourth line,
6 the fifth word, in B/C/S "adekvatno," so probably this should be
7 revisited translation-wise.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
9 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: The document was produced by the Prosecution, so
11 therefore I think it's upon the Prosecution to have the translation
12 verified; specifically, in relation to the issue mentioned by Mr. Lukic a
13 second ago.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The next document that we need to be
15 displayed on our screens is the next one in the sequence of the
16 Prosecution, P7261.
17 Q. A report was read out to you from the area of the
18 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, number 1, here, where it says, on that same day,
19 the 25th of May, 1995, when the NATO air strikes started, when the
20 Command of the Drina Corps is cautioning that it is to be expected that
21 Muslim forces, together with UNPROFOR, are going to continue operations,
22 in this document, in paragraph 1, I'm going to quote it now, I'm going to
23 read it out.
24 "The enemy: Along the entire defence line of the corps, ... has
25 incessantly fired from infantry weapons, artillery pieces, mortars of all
1 calibres, and snipers."
2 Then further on we see:
3 "They fired mortars and howitzers of 105 millimetres."
4 And also it says:
5 "They fired from NATO aircraft (using air bombs) against the area
6 of Jahorinski Potok, over the warehouse of the 27th pob ... at a distance
7 of 500 metres."
8 Mr. Blagojevic, that day and the days after that, could you
9 notice in that area where you were - that is to say, the area of
10 Bratunac - could you notice that there was co-ordinated action between
11 NATO air force and the enemy forces of the 28th Division?
12 A. Yes. Yes, we followed that all the time. This was action in
13 concert and co-ordinated action, and it was pronounced. And how?
14 Vis-ŕ-vis the forces of the Army of Republika Srpska, my brigade
16 Q. Today do you remember that first day, the following day, as for
17 the positions of your forces that you started commanding from the 25th of
18 May, 1995, was fire opened against these positions? Fire from the town
19 of Srebrenica? Fire from the enclave of Srebrenica?
20 A. Fire from the enclave of Srebrenica was opened permanently in
21 different periods against the positions of the brigade, and mostly in
22 different ways. Mostly by infantry. And the other weapons they had
23 available. Because it is a fact that they had not been demilitarised.
24 Likewise, they carried out other active operations, ambushes, incursions,
25 that were a constant threat to the safety and security of the members of
1 the Bratunac Brigade.
2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Blagojevic. Let's go back to D303, which was
3 shown to you. This is your order for active combat dated 5 July 1995.
4 Now that we have identified the document, let me first ask you this:
5 When it comes to the drafting of this document, did you do it on your own
6 or did you have assistance from the staff who helped you with that?
7 A. In this very specific case, I co-operated with some of the people
8 in the command of the brigade; the Chief of Staff, the operative, the
9 engineer, chief of engineers, the logistics chief. I drafted the order
10 together with them. I assessed the situation --
11 Q. Did you also say the artilleryman?
12 A. Yes, I did. The artillery guy.
13 Q. Thank you. And now let's look at bullet point 6 on page 4 in
14 English and on page 3 in B/C/S. The Prosecutor showed you the same
15 paragraph in her examination.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, I'm interested in 6.2.
17 [In English] Can we have the next page in B/C/S. We have the page in
18 English. No, no, we had the good page in English.
19 Q. [Interpretation] Looking at 6.2 where there is a reference to the
20 128-millimetre rocket-launcher platoon, who sends whom the proposal for
21 the use of a certain platoon?
22 A. In the brigade, it would be the chief of artillery. He prepared
23 the proposal and he submitted to me, the brigade commander. And that
24 happens in a predetermined sequence.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just bear with me for a moment.
1 Q. I'm trying to keep my re-examination short since you've already
2 answered some of the questions that I have prepared for you.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, if you want to further reduce it, you
4 could try to find out during the break how to do it. Unless you would
5 say I'll be finished in a few minutes.
6 MR. LUKIC: I think I could cut it down drastically if I have a
7 break time.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And meanwhile, I invite the parties to have
9 look at P7148 and tell the Chamber what the grid, the squares on that map
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: The grid squares should be 2 kilometres square.
12 JUDGE ORIE: 2 kilometres. 2 kilometres square.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: 1:50.000 scale.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I can't see that on the exhibit itself, I
15 think. We'll have a look at it so as to be better able to understand the
16 testimony of the witness.
17 We'll take a break first, Mr. Lukic, and then we'll hear from you
18 how much time you would still need after the break.
19 Witness, you may follow the usher.
20 [The witness stands down]
21 JUDGE ORIE: May I take it that we'll be able to conclude the
22 testimony of this witness today?
23 MR. LUKIC: Absolutely, Your Honour. I don't need much time.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm also looking at Ms. Hasan because ...
25 MS. HASAN: Yes, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, still for the next witness, if he is on
2 stand by, would he need to remain on stand by?
3 MR. LUKIC: He is on stand by.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And is there a fair chance we would have more
5 than five minutes with him? If you need only two or three minutes or
6 five minutes and Ms. Hasan doesn't need any more than another five
7 minutes, then of course we could still start with the witness.
8 So let's try to achieve that. We take a break and will resume
9 at --
10 MR. LUKIC: I can tell you, I probably don't have more than ten
11 minutes, maybe five.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's appreciated. We'll take a break, and
13 we'll resume at quarter to 2.00.
14 --- Recess taken at 1.28 p.m.
15 --- On resuming at 1.48 p.m.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 [The witness takes the stand]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
19 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Q. [Interpretation] And now let's look at two more documents. P1694
21 is the first one. I'll have some questions for you.
22 This document was issued by Colonel Ignjat Milanovic on the
23 15th of July, 1995. In this document, he suggested that you should be
24 appointed as the commander of all the forces engaged in the scouring of
25 the terrain. That's his proposal number 1.
1 And then you were shown P1696. The date is 16 July, 1995, your
2 name is typed up, and you gave us an account of each of the bullet
3 points, especially in response to Judge Orie's questions, and you said
4 that those things did not actually take place. You said that a
5 supposition is a normal thing. What is a supposition? Do you have a
6 definition of that term?
7 A. A supposition is something that is used in war games when one
8 wishes to simulate a situation in order to achieve certain things or
9 achieve a change of situation.
10 In that sense and through that you can assess the level of
11 preparedness of a command, its level of training to perform certain
12 duties or to carry out a certain task.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I may just get an explanation here, please.
14 Then would that be in a report that reports things that have happened?
15 Because this report is telling us about things that have happened, not
16 that are being supposed or that are being planned.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's the way I understand
18 the term "supposition." This is what I wanted to achieve.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah, but this is a daily combat report. It is
20 reporting what has taken place that day, not what is supposed to happen.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've just told you. If this is
22 recorded, then I did it myself. You can see that some things have been
23 crossed out in handwriting, which means that I wrote those things myself.
24 You can actually see my handwriting here.
25 MR. LUKIC: It's on page 3 in this document, Your Honour, if you
1 want to see that in writing. In B/C/S version.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Nothing in the English.
3 JUDGE ORIE: We have access to any pages we want to look at, but
4 thank you for guiding us to page 3.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: This one we are seeing for the first time.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, the problem is not, Witness, perhaps,
7 that we do not understand what a supposition is, but we do not understand
8 how in such a report you'd use suppositions rather than events that had
9 happened, because the other side who received the report might be greatly
10 misled if they receive reports A happened and they have to understand
11 that as, well, A could have happened, but B could have happened as well.
12 That's not what we have seen often in this type of reports, and that's
13 what triggers so much our curiosity on how this works.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Blagojevic, could you look at the handwriting
15 on the bottom of that page. Is this sentence: "During the day the
16 brigade commander visited all units," is that still legible there, or did
17 you cross that out?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, but I added, as you can see.
19 There's an arrow pointing in the direction of that part of the text.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, indeed. That is in your own handwriting, as
21 I understood you. And --
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- it refers to this text we were discussing
24 several -- several times today:
25 "During the day the brigade commander visited all units," and
1 then they are listed.
2 And this is contained in your own handwriting in this letter on
3 left-hand side, on the bottom; correct?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It's not crossed out.
6 You may proceed, Mr. Lukic.
7 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's the same handwriting, all of
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's all understood.
11 You may proceed, Mr. Lukic.
12 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I would just show this
13 witness next document. That's 65 ter number 04238.
14 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Blagojevic, you see the document before you.
15 The Command of the 1st Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade, dated 16 July,
16 1995, on the same day as the document entitled: "Combat Report." It says
17 here: "A deployment of the battalion into combat activity area, order:"
18 In the first paragraph, we can read:
19 "On the basis of the order issued by the commander of the
20 Drina Corps on the 16th of July, 1995, and for the purpose of timely
21 preparation of the unit and its deployment in the area of combat
22 activity, I hereby order... "
23 A. I can see all that.
24 Q. Under 1, it says:
25 "The commander of the 1st infantry battalion ..."
1 A. Yes, infantry battalion, that's what PB stands.
2 Q. "... will immediately pull out the whole battalion from its area
3 of deployment and prepare it for combat activity."
4 Where was the deployment area of the 1st Infantry Battalion? Can
5 you remember that?
6 A. It had its defence sector which remained after the previously
7 mentioned order. After that, its task was to search the terrain in a
8 certain area. Again, the area was defined in the previous document. And
9 then after searching the terrain, they entered the stage of forming the
10 march alignment to start marching towards Zepa.
11 Q. Under 6, it says:
12 "The commander of the 1st Infantry Battalion shall be responsible
13 for preparing the battalion to complete its task."
14 What was your role during those preparation? Do you remember?
15 A. My role was decisive. The most important one. That's why I
16 joined them on their mission the following day.
17 Q. That would have been my next question. We can see under 5 that:
18 "The unit is to be fully prepared for the march at 0700 hours on
19 the 17th July, 1995."
20 You say that you joined them. You joined the battalion. Where
21 did you go with them?
22 A. I went in the sector called Podzeplje, south of Han Pijesak, if I
23 remember it well. I went into that sector in the vicinity of Zepa
24 enclave. From its north western side. I can't give you the exact
25 location. I would have to consult a map. But in any case, it was the
1 Podzeplje sector.
2 Q. How long did you stay there?
3 A. Until the end of August, up to 25th or 26th of August.
4 Q. August or July?
5 A. Hold on. I don't know.
6 Q. Very well.
7 A. Until the end of those activities surrounding Zepa. I know it
8 lasted for a long time.
9 Q. And let's look at the signature at the very bottom of the
10 document. Do you recognise it?
11 A. You mean the signature on the order?
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. This is my document. I drafted it and I signed it as well.
14 Q. Mr. Blagojevic, thank you. This is all we had for you.
15 MR. LUKIC: Only, Your Honours, we would offer this document into
16 evidence, 65 ter 04238.
17 MS. HASAN: No objection.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D967, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: D967 is admitted.
21 Ms. Hasan, any further questions?
22 MS. HASAN: Very briefly, Your Honours.
23 Could we call up 65 ter 5815.
24 Further cross-examination by Ms. Hasan:
25 Q. And you were asked at transcript page 53 about the area of
1 responsibility. And we actually do have the original. This is a map.
2 MS. HASAN: Perhaps with the assistance of the usher, we can hand
3 that to Mr. Blagojevic to look at. And to the Defence and Your Honours
4 as well.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, in view of what happens now, the
7 next witness can be excused. I feel sorry for him, but ... yes.
8 MS. HASAN: And just for the screens, that's 65 ter 5815.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Could it be given to the witness.
10 [Prosecution counsel confer]
11 JUDGE ORIE: And to the Defence first.
12 Unless, Mr. Lukic, you waive your right to inspect the map.
13 MS. HASAN: There is a translation for this map, I assume it's
14 just -- takes a bit of time to appear.
15 JUDGE ORIE: If you put your question to the witness, then...
16 MS. HASAN:
17 Q. Mr. Blagojevic, you've taken a look at the map, and you see
18 that -- well, just to inform you, this is a map that was taken from the
19 Bratunac Brigade command in 1998. And there's an area you see there
20 shaded in a pale yellow colour. That's the area of responsibility of the
21 Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade; isn't that correct?
22 A. No. If we are talking about that period, 1995, no. This is a
23 map that was made in 1992 in the month of November when the
24 Bratunac Brigade was established, and it was made for completely
25 different purposes and on the basis of completely different elements and
2 In 1995, totally different elements were valid; that is to say,
3 the rules and regulations that applied in the Army of Republika Srpska.
4 This does not refer to the period that we are discussing. This is
5 November 1992. That is the period. And that is quite different from
6 what the situation was in 1995.
7 JUDGE ORIE: You've told us that now three times. But could you
8 then please indicate, was it smaller in 1995 - and I'm talking about the
9 geographical area, because we're looking at the map - was it smaller, was
10 it larger where parts were not any more in the area of responsibility of
11 the Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade? Where were there areas which may
12 have been added to what was the situation in 1992? Could you please be
13 concrete on the matter.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The situation in 1995 was very
15 concrete. That was the zone of defence of the Bratunac Brigade vis-ŕ-vis
16 the enclave of Srebrenica, and it was defined through orders of the
17 superior command, or rather -- please allow me. The next order for
18 active operations. So --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, what we -- we see a map and we see
20 highlighted a certain geographical area where it says areas of
21 responsibility of the Light Infantry Brigade. You say in 1992 it was not
22 the same as in 1995. Could you tell us, apart from all kind of
23 decisions, was it smaller, was it larger? Are you able with a pen to
24 more or less put on this map what was actually the situation in 1995?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can. In terms of the defence
1 sector facing the enclave of Srebrenica 1995, much, much smaller. It is
2 very defined as compared to this map.
3 JUDGE ORIE: You are constantly talking about a defence sector.
4 I'm talking - and that is the question - is about the area of
5 responsibility of the Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade. Not anything else
6 about defence elements or ... was that different in 1995?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, substantially so.
8 JUDGE ORIE: I leave it in your hands, Ms. Hasan, to find out
9 with the witness or at least to elicit from the witness what he thinks
10 was the area of responsibility in 1995.
11 MS. HASAN:
12 Q. So we agree, then, that there was an area of responsibility of
13 the Bratunac Brigade in July of 1995.
14 Now, the geographical borders of that area of responsibility, can
15 you briefly set those out? You were the commander. You surely know
16 where those borders were. And let's begin with the north, and we can
17 work or way.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan, wouldn't it be best that he has a pen and
19 that he can say where the borders now were?
20 MS. HASAN: Absolutely.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could a pen be provided to the witness.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE ORIE: And the marking can be done on the B/C/S version
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I? May I say something about
2 JUDGE ORIE: No, we'd first like you to mark where the boundaries
3 were in 1995.
4 May I take it July 1995, Ms. Hasan?
5 MS. HASAN: Yes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: July 1995.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, I can't see here
8 where the border of the enclave is. I cannot draw the front part. I
9 have to draw the front part, the front line, the first line of defence of
10 my units, and I cannot do it here. This is not a working map. This is
11 not a map to be worked with.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Blagojevic, ignore the enclaves. They are
13 in -- obviously in the middle of the map. The outer border of the
14 Bratunac Brigade, this is the question. Is that exactly the area of
15 responsibility? Ignore the enclaves at the defence lines.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge, sir, the zone of defence of
17 my brigade is delineated on the front part with the defence line of the
18 units facing the enemy. Then there's the right flank and the left flank.
19 In depth, in depth. Now I'm moving this way into my own territory. The
20 depth is determined by the disposition of the firing positions, the
21 logistics units, and the command posts of the units. That's the area.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think you are not understanding the question
23 put by Ms. Hasan, by the Presiding Judge, and by me.
24 Look at the map. Is the Drina the border of the zone of
25 responsibility of your brigade, to the east?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Not at all. I cannot base the
2 zone of defence on this kind of surface. No. Impossible. I've never
3 done any such thing in practice. And on the basis of the regulations
4 that were in force at the time.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any way you could -- could mark on a map
6 where the Zvornik Brigade and the -- and the Bratunac Brigade, where the
7 border between the two zones of responsibility was? So as to say the one
8 side of the line it's the Zvornik Brigade, the other side of the line is
9 the Bratunac Brigade. Is there any way for you to do that?
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it possible to enlarge --
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had no connection with the
12 Zvornik Brigade. We were not adjacent. With the Milici Brigade on the
13 right and to the left with the Skelani Battalion, in a way. With the
14 Zvornik Brigade, I had nothing to do with them whatsoever.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Could you mark on the map whatever borders you could
16 draw between your area of responsibility and the area of responsibility
17 of the adjacent brigades.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is very hard to do it here
19 because the scale is so small. You have other maps here, probably.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Could we enlarge part of the map so that at least --
21 get it a little bit more in the centre and have it enlarged. We ...
22 And just the area of the responsibility, if we could move up a
23 bit, and now move down slightly. Little bit more. Little bit more.
24 Perhaps a little bit. And enlarge it slightly again.
25 Okay. Could you do it on the basis of what we have on our screen
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Over here, I cannot decipher the
3 name of a single village here. You should bear in mind that I have a bad
4 eye. I can barely see with one eye, so maybe you should give me a map
5 with a different scale, 1:50.000.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan, we now know all the problems the witness
7 is facing in doing what he is supposed to do. I suggest that we try to
8 do it in the first 15 minutes tomorrow morning, because this will not
9 resolve in anything in the next ten minutes, if at all necessary. That's
10 a different matter. You also could consider whether or not you could do
11 without all this.
12 MS. HASAN: It's difficult to tell how useful of an exercise it
13 will be to try again tomorrow. I would --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but you have to make up your mind on the
16 MS. HASAN:
17 Q. I would ask the witness that, in fact, he is trying to mark
18 the -- which he keeps repeating, the defence zone and not the area of
19 responsibility. That's correct?
20 JUDGE ORIE: But then again, the witness says I can't read any
21 name on it. But let's check with him.
22 Would you be able, on the basis of what you have in front of you
23 now, to draw the borders of the defence zone of your brigade? Or is it
24 still too small?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge, sir, this is a key question
1 for me. I wish to give the right answer and a full answer to this
2 question. This is the main question in this entire game.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it's not a game, perhaps.
4 But Ms. Hasan, you are now at a point where you have to decide
5 whether or not to provide the witness with a map he can work it and do
6 that tomorrow morning or to waive or to withdraw these questions.
7 MS. HASAN: Your Honour, I won't withdraw the questions if I can
8 put one final question to him and then I can just end the matter.
9 Q. Mr. Blagojevic, the reason, in fact, that you're refusing to
10 recognise the area of responsibility as marked on this map is because you
11 don't want any responsibility for what took place within that -- within
12 that area in July of 1995. That's correct?
13 A. God forbid, this has nothing to do with the truth. This is
14 nonsense. I am just speaking about facts.
15 MS. HASAN: I'd then just offer 65 ter 5815 into evidence.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P7265, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Is admitted into evidence.
20 No further questions? So you do withdraw the other questions,
21 Ms. Hasan?
22 MS. HASAN: No, I withdraw it and -- it's our position that he is
23 refusing to mark the area of responsibility.
24 JUDGE ORIE: No, no, that's fine. But the marking questions,
25 et cetera, they are now off? Yes. That's what I call withdrawal of a
2 Mr. Mladic should refrain from making all kind of gestures.
3 No -- Mr. Mladic, you do it again. It's ...
4 Mr. Lukic, we will adjourn for the day, but this concludes your
5 testimony, Mr. Blagojevic. Therefore, I would like to thank you very
6 much for coming a long way to The Hague and for having answered many
7 questions that were put to you by the parties and by the Bench. I wish
8 you a safe return home again.
9 And Mr. Domazet is thanked for his services provided to the
11 You may follow the usher.
12 [The witness withdrew]
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE ORIE: I put on the record that Mr. Mladic was saluting the
15 witness, which he's supposed not to do, and the Chamber will consider
16 whether misbehaviour at the end of the testimony of a witness should not
17 result in exclusion for the next witness or at least have consequences
18 for the proceedings.
19 We adjourn for the day and will resume tomorrow, Wednesday, the
20 25th of March, 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, I.
21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.22 p.m.,
22 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 25th day of
23 March, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.