1 Thursday, 26 March 2015
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you and good morning, Your Honours. This
9 is case number IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
11 No preliminaries were announced. Therefore, I move now to a
12 decision. I now move to a decision by the Chamber, that is, to continue
13 to hear the case today, although Judge Fluegge is for urgent personal
14 reasons unable to hear the case. It will be of short duration as far as
15 we can see now, and therefore Judge Moloto and myself have decided that
16 it is in the interests of justice to continue to hear the case today.
17 Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
18 Meanwhile, I address a few matters. The first relates to the
19 testimony of Vojo Kupresanin. On the 11th of December, P7010 was marked
20 for identification during the testimony of Vojo Kupresanin. In relation
21 to this document, on the 13th of February, 2015, the Prosecution e-mailed
22 the Chamber to advise that it had uploaded into e-court document bearing
23 65 ter number 31772a, which are two pages of Kupresanin's testimony from
24 the Karadzic case, and requested that, subject to the agreement of the
25 Defence, these pages be admitted into evidence as Exhibit P7010.
1 On the same day, the Chamber e-mailed the Defence to see if it
2 had any objections to 65 ter 31772a being admitted. As of today's date,
3 the Defence has not responded, and the Defence is hereby instructed to
4 respond in court before the end of the day.
5 [The witness takes the stand]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Jovicic.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, I'd like to remind you that
9 you're still bound by the solemn declaration you have given yesterday at
10 the beginning of your testimony. Mr. MacDonald will now continue his
12 Please proceed, Mr. MacDonald.
13 MR. MacDONALD: Thank you, Your Honours, and good morning.
14 WITNESS: NEDJO JOVICIC [Resumed]
15 [Witness answered through interpreter]
16 Cross-examination by Mr. MacDonald: [Continued]
17 Q. Mr. Jovicic, yesterday we spoke about the 13th of July and your
18 journey on that day, that you left Bratunac towards Konjevic Polje with
19 Borovcanin, Pirocanac, you stopped at Sandici meadow around or just about
20 4.00 in the afternoon. You went further towards Konjevic Polje, turning
21 around about Pervani and you then headed back towards Bratunac.
22 On your way back, we had the radio call of Borovcanin telling
23 someone to close the road to the traffic, and as I said yesterday the
24 Chamber has heard evidence that someone was Oficir, and that
25 Milenko Pepic was taken by Oficir to a bridge at Kravica village and told
1 to wait for an order to stop the traffic.
2 And finally we came to you, Borovcanin, and Pirocanac being back
3 together at Sandici meadow, and that's where we paused yesterday. And
4 what I'd like to do is to rejoin that journey where we left off. I'm
5 going to ask that some more footage be played to you.
6 MR. MacDONALD: Before I do, just for the record and
7 Your Honours' benefit, this is the footage we have from the BBC identical
8 to the Pirocanac footage. I'm going to ask that it be played from
10 Q. Before we play it, let me just advise you this has been
11 identified as just behind the largely destroyed house on Sandici meadow
12 and that we're going to see some Bosnian Muslim men surrendering. You'll
13 hear some dialogue, but I'm interested in the sound you hear behind the
14 dialogue, particularly around the time we see the younger male take off
15 his T-shirt.
16 If I can now ask --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Before we do that, you again said you would play the
18 BBC version. That is the version which is not in evidence?
19 MR. MacDONALD: It is in evidence, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MR. MacDONALD: Both the original from Pirocanac and from the
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, just I -- I missed that point. And then
24 further you referred to Pervani. Yesterday we left off, just
25 wondering -- it didn't ring a bell to me, Pervani, but it may well be
1 that I missed it.
2 MR. MacDONALD: Just for the record, Your Honours, I was at
3 point 9, on the map. It's the area where we saw the Praga and the BOV.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
5 MR. MacDONALD: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 I now ask that that clip be played.
7 [Video-clip played]
8 MR. MacDONALD: If we can pause here, please.
9 Your Honours, I don't think the audio came on until about halfway
10 through that clip. I wonder then if we could replay it.
11 JUDGE ORIE: If you think it was not loud enough, then you can
12 play it again. I -- of course I didn't hear the original, but I did hear
13 the background sound which you were specifically drawing our attention
14 to. And if you have any concerns, then of course the volume for the
15 witness could be increased.
16 MR. MacDONALD: It's not that, Your Honour. In my hearing, there
17 was no audio for the first half of the clip, and I've had that before
18 with --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Play it again as good as you can technically.
20 [Video-clip played]
21 MR. MacDONALD: We've paused at 00.23.32.
22 Q. Witness, you heard the automatic fire and the explosion in the
23 background there?
24 A. I heard the automatic fire, but not the explosion, no.
25 MR. MacDONALD: I wonder if I may ask for the assistance of
1 Madam Usher at this point and just play it one more time, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.
3 MR. MacDONALD: And.
4 Q. And before I ask that it be played, Mr. Witness, the explosion
5 happens just after the man begins taking his T-shirt off, if I can ask
6 you to listen very carefully to that point.
7 MR. MacDONALD: If we can play it again, please.
8 [Video-clip played]
9 MR. MacDONALD: We've again paused at 00.23.33.
10 Q. I think the automatic gun-fire was more clear there. Just before
11 the second burst, there was an explosion. Did you hear it?
12 A. I heard a blunt sound, the sound of a blunt object. I could hear
13 the automatic fire very well, but the rest ...
14 Q. The Prosecution case, Mr. Jovicic, is that that sound you heard
15 is a hand-grenade and that that hand-grenade and the automatic fire you
16 hear is the start of the massacre at Kravica warehouse. Now, do you have
17 any comment upon that?
18 A. It's hard to say whether that was a hand-grenade or some other
19 explosive device. And as for the automatic fire, you can hear that, but
20 I don't know where, what direction it is coming from. I really don't
21 know that.
22 Q. One final question before we move on to the next piece of
23 footage. The Bosnian Serbs we saw in that clip, they did not react to
24 that fire; is that right?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. If we can move on to the next piece of footage. Again, you'll
2 hear dialogue here. It's a man coming down to surrender and being
3 directed across the road. But, again, I'd ask you to listen out for a
4 sound in the background. That's at approximately 00.24.09.
5 MR. MacDONALD: I'd ask that we play from 00.23.50 to 00.24.15.
6 [Video-clip played]
7 MR. MacDONALD:
8 Q. Now, did you hear what sounded like a car pulling away very
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. When Pirocanac is filming that footage, when he is at the largely
12 destroyed house on Sandici meadow, are you by your car at that point?
13 A. Most likely.
14 Q. So if we have a car pulling away quickly, screeching away like
15 that, you remember that happening on that day?
16 A. Well, that was a road. A lot of vehicles passed by, buses,
17 lorries from Bratunac to Konjevic Polje. Who was it who passed at that
18 very moment I can't remember.
19 Q. Just to be clear, I'm not talking about vehicles passing by or
20 buses or lorries; I'm talking about a car being there and pulling away
21 very suddenly, whether you remember that?
22 A. You can clearly hear that in the footage, but I can't remember
23 that moment. It is really possible that that happened, but I can't
25 Q. Well, the Prosecution theory, Mr. Jovicic, the Prosecution
1 position is that after the executions had begun at Kravica warehouse,
2 some -- somebody heard that something had gone wrong, and this car is
3 being sent to investigate that. Do you have any comment upon that?
4 A. As far as I know, the incident in Kravica happened somewhat
5 later. When we came by -- I don't know when this footage was made. I
6 think it -- this happened after the incident at Kravica.
7 Q. I'd like to move to one last piece of footage from this video.
8 It's from 00.24.15 to 00.24.24. Before we play it --
9 MR. MacDONALD: Your Honours, this is the second part of footage
10 to which I would draw the attention of this witness to the audio that
11 this had been alerted. The clip may catch some mumbling in the car at
12 the start, but the part I'm interested in is the radio call that we hear
13 clearly, one short line.
14 I'd now ask that that be played. I'm obliged to Ms. Stewart.
15 For the benefit of the booths, the transcript is page 15 in
16 English and page 17 in the B/C/S.
17 [Video-clip played]
18 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Laser 2 is calling you."
19 MR. MacDONALD:
20 Q. We heard the line "Laser 2 is calling you." Laser 2 was the
21 call-sign of Borovcanin; is that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And just for the record, that piece of clip finished -- or paused
24 at 00.24.24:4.
25 Mr. Jovicic, by this point by that piece of footage, you had not
1 yet received the panicky radio call from Miso Stupar to tell you
2 something had gone wrong at Kravica warehouse, had you?
3 A. No, we did not.
4 Q. Now, this video goes on and the last piece of footage we have on
5 the 13th at Sandici meadow ends at 00.24.35, a short time later. Now,
6 I'd suggest to you that it's shortly after the scene we've just seen that
7 you leave and then you get the call that something has gone wrong at
8 Kravica warehouse. So shortly after what we've just seen, you do get
9 that call from Miso Stupar?
10 A. After the encounter with General Mladic in the meadow in Sandici,
11 we headed for Konjevic Polje. On the way to Konjevic Polje, Miso Stupar
12 called us and he was in panic when he told us that something bad had
13 happened at the Kravica farm. We turned around and went in that
15 Q. When you got that call from Miso Stupar, you went straight to
16 Kravica warehouse; that's correct, isn't it?
17 A. We were on the road, the Sandici-Konjevic Polje road, and on that
18 road we received that call. Once we received it, I turned the car around
19 and I headed off towards Bratunac. And on the way to Bratunac, there is
20 this farm where the incident had taken place.
21 Q. I'd just like to be very precise in this next question. After
22 you got the call and you turned around, you did not stop anywhere until
23 you got to the farm or Kravica warehouse; is that right?
24 A. We rushed towards the farm.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Do I have to understand this as rushing meaning not
1 stopping either?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We didn't stop anywhere, until
4 JUDGE ORIE: Until you went to the -- you arrived at the farm,
5 Kravica warehouse?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Once we passed the farm, we stopped
7 for the first time.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. MacDonald.
9 MR. MacDONALD:
10 Q. And just to be clear, when you refer to "the farm," that's the
11 place where -- that's Kravica warehouse, isn't it?
12 A. Yes. The place where the incident had taken place.
13 Q. Now, Mr. Jovicic, if we play the raw footage on, we get 24
14 seconds of a cardboard ration box being filmed, and it's the Prosecution
15 case that that filming of the cardboard ration box tapes over filming
16 that was taken -- or footage that was taken of Kravica warehouse. Now,
17 we have the footage or some of the footage from Kravica warehouse from a
18 separate source, and I'd now like -- I'd like to move to that now.
19 MR. MacDONALD: Can the Prosecution please have P01147.
20 For the benefit of Your Honours, this is the compilation tape
21 made for this trial.
22 I'd ask that it be played from 00.36.18, and if we can pause when
23 we have the part where it fades away.
24 [Video-clip played]
25 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "There are dead Muslim soldiers."
1 MR. MacDONALD: We've stopped that 00.36.25:9.
2 Q. Did you hear the sound of automatic fire there?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. It's coming from the area you were passing at the time, isn't it?
5 A. I don't know. I was in the car, and it was very far to guess
6 where that had come from. As I sit here today I have the same problem,
7 and then I was in the car.
8 Q. Well, we're going to see the same scene in slow motion now.
9 MR. MacDONALD: So can we please play on.
10 [Video-clip played]
11 MR. MacDONALD: And we've paused at 00.36.56:8.
12 Q. You saw the bodies lying in front of the warehouse there?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Do you remember seeing them at the time?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now, Kravica warehouse is on the right of your car; that means at
17 that point you're driving back towards Bratunac?
18 A. We were driving from Konjevic Polje towards Bratunac and the farm
19 was on our right-hand side.
20 Q. Now, the bodies we saw there, they're in front of the part of the
21 warehouse closest to Konjevic Polje; correct?
22 A. No, it's the closest to Kravica because the warehouse is in
24 MR. MacDONALD: I wonder if we can pull -- we can have P01132 and
25 it's page 95 I would be looking for.
1 Q. Now, this is an aerial image taken of Kravica warehouse. Now,
2 the red box is around Kravica warehouse and the blue arrow is pointing in
3 the direction of Bratunac. What I'm saying to you is that the bodies we
4 saw are on the side of the warehouse closer to Konjevic Polje, that is,
5 to the right of the photograph. That's right, isn't it?
6 A. This is the co-operative. The bodies were outside. And this is
7 located just as you enter Kravica from the direction of Konjevic Polje.
8 Q. I'm going to ask this question just one more time. Perhaps I'm
9 not being sufficiently precise. But we see the co-operative, the
10 warehouse, inside the red box. We see a blue arrow pointing towards
11 Bratunac. The bodies we saw on the video, the bodies piled up outside
12 the warehouse, they are closest to the end of the warehouse that is
13 nearest to Konjevic Polje, that is, to the right of the photograph?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. When you saw that footage in slow motion, the man walking in
16 front of the bus, he was making a thumbs-up sign; correct?
17 A. Could you play it again because I didn't see that. I didn't pay
19 Q. That's no problem.
20 MR. MacDONALD: If we can play the slow-motion part that begins
21 at approximately 00.36.25 -- sorry, 27, my apologies.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's P1147?
23 MR. MacDONALD: It is, Your Honour. Thank you.
24 [Video-clip played]
25 MR. MacDONALD:
1 Q. The man we saw walking closest to the bus, he was making a
2 thumbs-up sign; correct?
3 A. I think he raised his closed fist. I didn't see thumbs-up.
4 Q. Okay. I'll move on.
5 You say in your statement that you stopped for Borovcanin to
6 speak with Miso Stupar. Who is all there when Borovcanin stops to speak
7 to Stupar?
8 A. Which position do you mean?
9 Q. Well, you drive past the warehouse and you stop there and
10 Borovcanin speaks with Miso Stupar; that's right, isn't it?
11 A. Yes, yes.
12 Q. Now, who's all there when Borovcanin is speaking to Miso Stupar?
13 A. I can't remember. It was very short. We stopped by the
14 co-operative before moving on. An injured policeman of ours was being
15 evacuated. Miso said briefly what he had to say. They got into the
16 vehicle. They took with them the officer who had been injured, and we
17 moved on towards Bratunac. It all happened in a very short time.
18 Q. Now, the injured officer, that's Rade Cuturic whose nickname is
19 Oficir; correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. He gets into another vehicle. That vehicle is a Golf car;
23 A. He got into some sort of a vehicle. I think it was a Volkswagen
24 Golf. He didn't get into our vehicle, into the other one. They took him
25 to the health centre in Bratunac.
1 Q. When you stopped there, did you or Borovcanin or anyone else go
2 towards the Muslim bodies lying outside the warehouse that you'd seen and
3 attempt to ascertain if they were alive or in need of medical assistance?
4 A. As we were descending from Sandici towards the co-operative, we
5 had no idea what was going on. As we were passing by the co-operative
6 where the incident happened, at first, since I was driving, I didn't
7 notice anything before Borovcanin said, "Oh my God, what is this?" And
8 then I turned my head and saw the bodies. And after that we stopped,
9 having passed the co-operative. Ljubisa spoke briefly with Miso about
10 the incident, and in the meantime they put the injured officer into the
11 vehicle. And then we moved on to Bratunac.
12 Q. I asked you when you stopped there for this discussion if you or
13 Borovcanin or anyone else went towards the Muslim bodies you'd seen lying
14 outside the warehouse, and whether you tried to ascertain if they were
15 alive or in need of medical assistance. Do I take it from the answer
16 you've just given me, the answer to my question is "no"?
17 A. We stopped. Ljubisa was in the car. He exchanged a few words
18 with Miso Stupar. He didn't get out of the vehicle. I didn't get out of
19 the vehicle. We moved a few minutes later following them to Bratunac.
20 Q. So no, you didn't do that?
21 A. We did not get out. We did not come close to them.
22 Q. Something else I would like you to help me with. I said to you
23 earlier the entire footage regarding this French cardboard ration box
24 that we see on the raw footage, that lasts approximately 24 seconds. The
25 Kravica warehouse footage we've seen that you've seen today lasts 2 to 3
1 seconds. Now, you were there in the car. You stopped and you're looking
2 at this scene. What was on that approximately 21 seconds that was taped
3 over? What did you see there?
4 A. I didn't see any other footage. I didn't even know this footage
5 exists. I saw it a couple of months later --
6 Q. If I can stop you there. I'm not asking about what footage you
7 saw. You were there at the time. You pulled over and you see the bodies
8 in front of the warehouse. Now, there is 21 seconds of footage that has
9 been taped over that we do not have. What else -- apart from what we've
10 seen on the footage, what else did you see at Kravica warehouse when you
11 were there?
12 A. Well, now, I told you what I had seen in the moment when
13 Borovcanin and I were passing by, but when I was coming back from
14 Bratunac because Borovcanin had sent me back to kind of find out what had
15 happened. Is that what you want me to say?
16 Q. I'm not -- it's not what I want you to say that's important,
17 Mr. Jovicic. When we see this footage, the footage cuts, as we hear,
18 automatic fire, and then the camera goes blank. Now, you stop after this
19 footage is taken. You see more people being executed at Kravica
20 warehouse, don't you?
21 A. I did not see it then. Let me tell you. On the way back, when
22 we went from Sandici towards Bratunac as we were passing by the
23 co-operative, at one point I did not realise that had happened, I didn't
24 notice anything. But then Borovcanin said, "Oh my God, what is this?"
25 And then I turned my head to the right and saw a heap of corpses. And
1 then when we stopped after the co-operative, he had a short exchange with
2 Miso Stupar and we went on towards Bratunac. At that moment, I didn't
3 even know that the man sitting in the back behind me, Pirocanac, was
5 Now, this footage that you played, I didn't even know that there
6 is any footage at all. I saw that footage only a couple of months later
7 on TV.
8 Q. Sir, it is the Prosecution's case that this footage was
9 deliberately taped over because it shows very dramatic incriminating
10 scenes. Now, you were there when Borovcanin -- when you stop and
11 Borovcanin is speaking to Miso Stupar, I'm asking you: What did you see
12 happening in the warehouse?
13 A. First of all, I don't know if somebody deleted that or not.
14 Second, I've already told you twice what I had seen at that
15 moment and I can repeat it at any moment. I gave you an account of what
16 I had seen. That's all.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I just get clarification on one little point.
18 Did I hear you correctly say that you said Pirocanac was in the
19 car with you and you were not aware that he was filming?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: When you got in the car, you didn't see him
22 carrying a camera or some filming equipment?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You know how it was? Since he got
24 there with us, all the time he was there he filmed whatever he liked. He
25 had the camera always with him. I didn't pay attention. I didn't keep
1 tabs what he was filming when. Now, obviously since we have this
2 footage, he was filming at that moment, but at that time I was focused on
3 my driving and I didn't realise he was filming.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: I understand you better. Thank you so much.
5 MR. MacDONALD:
6 Q. Mr. Jovicic, the footage we see shows a number of bodies outside
7 the warehouse on one side, and we hear automatic gun-fire. The
8 Prosecution believes that after the camera goes off, that gun-fire
9 continues and we know people on the other side of the warehouse were
10 executed after people on the first side were executed. When you were
11 there, you heard more gun-fire and it was the people on the other side of
12 the warehouse being executed; is that not the truth?
13 A. Well, gun-fire was heard. We could hear it on the footage. Now,
14 where it came from, I can't even estimate because I was in the car.
15 Q. Well, when you came back from Bratunac health centre and you come
16 towards Kravica warehouse, that's what you see, isn't it, people on the
17 other side of the warehouse being executed?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. I'm going to cover that in slightly more detail in a moment, but
20 before I do, after the footage we have of Kravica warehouse, so after the
21 first time you pass it, you accompany Cuturic back to Bratunac health
22 centre; that's right, isn't it?
23 A. Yes.
24 MR. MacDONALD: If the Prosecution can please have P01477.
25 Q. Mr. Jovicic, what you're about to say is an excerpt from the
1 Bratunac health log on 13 July 1995.
2 MR. MacDONALD: I'd ask for the second page in both languages.
3 If we can focus in on the second line. It's 1490 along the side.
4 Q. We see a date and time, 13 July 1995, 1740 hours, and then the
5 name of the person Rade, son of Milan, Cuturic.
6 So, Mr. Jovicic, you and those you were accompanying got to
7 Bratunac health centre shortly before 1740; is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. I'd now like to turn -- well, when you get to Bratunac health
10 centre, Borovcanin instructs you to go back to Kravica warehouse; is that
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You've already told us that when you get back you see killings
14 taking place on the other side of the warehouse. Now, when you got back,
15 you saw two men shooting into that side of the warehouse; that's right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And when I say "the other side of the warehouse," I mean the
18 other side from the side which had the bodies outside of it, just to be
19 clear; that's right?
20 A. Well, looking from the road, it's on the right.
21 Q. If we can just be as clear as possible. There was one side on
22 the footage we see -- we saw bodies outside of that side of the
23 warehouse. That's the side in the direction of Konjevic Polje. When you
24 get back, after stopping at Bratunac health centre, you see people
25 shooting into the other side; is that right?
1 JUDGE ORIE: Just if you would not mind.
2 Did I hear you say, Mr. MacDonald, when you got back after
3 stopping at Bratunac health centre, you see people shooting into the
4 other side; is that what you said? Or shooting the other side? It's not
5 entirely clear to me what your question was and therefore there's a risk
6 of translation -- of interpretation problems.
7 MR. MacDONALD: I'm obliged.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please slowly and clearly put to the
9 witness what you had on your mind.
10 MR. MacDONALD: Thank you, Mr. President.
11 JUDGE ORIE: And if we are talking about -- sorry to interrupt
12 you again. If we are talking about the other side, buildings usually
13 have four sides. What we are talking about is still that wall, that side
14 of the warehouse that faces the road, isn't it? But, either to the right
15 of that wall or that face of the warehouse or to the left of it, not the
16 back facing away from the road, but all facing the road. That's what
17 we're talking about?
18 MR. MacDONALD: It is.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 Is that clear to you, Witness, as well, that we're only talking
21 about that part of the warehouse which is visible from the road, facing
22 the road.
24 MR. MacDONALD: Yes.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Then please put your question again to the witness.
1 MR. MacDONALD:
2 Q. Mr. Jovicic, if I can perhaps make it clearer by dividing Kravica
3 warehouse into two halves. On the footage, we saw bodies outside of one
4 half of the warehouse, and that is the half which is in the direction of
5 Konjevic Polje. Now, when you get back, you see two men shooting into
6 the other half, the half in the direction of Bratunac; is that not
8 A. The Judge remarked on this very well. Every building has four
9 sides. The upper side of the warehouse is facing Konjevic Polje. On
10 that side, there is nothing. On the side of the building facing the
11 road, if we are looking from the road at the site of incident, the bodies
12 were on the right. And on the upper side, there is nothing. That side
13 faces Konjevic Polje. Because the building, as we see on the footage, is
14 rectangular. On the upper side, there's nothing. If we are looking at
15 the co-operative from the road, the corpses were lying to the right,
16 outside the building.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: As I understand the question, sir, this time now
18 you are coming back from the medical centre and what Mr. MacDonald is
19 asking you is: At that time, did you not see people -- two people
20 shooting on the opposite side of the building, the side opposite to the
21 one where you had seen the bodies?
22 Am I right, Mr. MacDonald?
23 JUDGE ORIE: I suggest the following: Could we use the
24 photograph and could we use the cursor to make clear what we are aiming
25 at so that everyone sees exactly what we are talking about.
1 Could we have the --
2 MR. MacDONALD: It's P01132.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then could I have the assistance of the
4 usher and then I'll take it up to the point where the witness has
5 answered the questions.
6 Okay. Could we zoom in.
7 Okay. Could I give some indication and could the cursor be moved
8 into the square. Okay. Now could it be moved to the right and little
9 bit further -- no, not further down. Further to the right, further to
10 the right, further to the right, further to the right, further to the
11 right, further to the right, further to the right.
12 Witness, do you see the cursor now?
13 Stop it now.
14 Do you see the cursor now on your screen?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: That's what we say is the right end of the
17 warehouse, and it is just in front of that part of the warehouse, if I
18 understood you well, where you saw the bodies. Is that well understood?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you look carefully, here there
20 is a wall in the middle that divides the warehouse into the right half
21 and the left half. If you move the cursor a bit, it's in the middle.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's all fine. But where the cursor is now,
23 is that approximately where you saw the bodies, that is, the right half
24 of the -- in front of the right half of the warehouse?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The bodies were, as far as I can
1 remember at a distance from that dividing wall in the middle towards the
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So the right half -- in front of the right
4 half of the warehouse.
5 Now could the cursor be moved to the left. Further, further,
6 further, further, further. Now -- stop there.
7 I think that Mr. MacDonald is asking you that after you had
8 returned from the Bratunac health centre whether you saw persons shooting
9 into the warehouse in that left part of that warehouse, that's
10 approximately where the cursor is now? Did you see people shooting into
11 the warehouse in that left half of the warehouse when you had returned?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I returned, I saw them
13 shooting at people; but, again, in the right half of the building. There
14 was no shooting on the left side. They were shooting again on the
15 right-hand side. There was a door - and I believe you can see it here.
16 Everything happened on the right side.
17 JUDGE ORIE: I -- Mr. MacDonald, you're cross-examining the
18 witness. I just tried to go as far as what we heard as evidence and how
19 I understood it in order to establish whether there was any confusion or
20 not. I think for after the return I leave it to you further to further
21 explore and further develop your cross-examination.
22 MR. MacDONALD: Thank you, Mr. President.
23 Q. Mr. Jovicic, when you went back and you saw these two men
24 shooting, one would shoot and the other one would refill his gun; that's
25 right, isn't it?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And then when one finished his ammunition, the other one would
3 replace him and continue shooting; that's right, isn't it?
4 A. Well, I don't know about these details. In any case, they were
5 shooting in that direction. Now, how exactly they arranged it, I don't
7 Q. At the same time --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please clarify where the witness said "in
9 that direction," where, in the previous answers, there was no clear
10 direction mentioned, what direction he referred to.
11 MR. MacDONALD:
12 Q. Mr. Jovicic, you said:
13 "In any case, they," meaning the two men, "were shooting in that
15 What did you mean by "that direction"?
16 A. At the building, into the building.
17 Q. And those men, they would give their empty magazines to others
18 close to them and those others would refill their magazines; that's
19 right, isn't it?
20 A. Yes.
21 MR. MacDONALD: Your Honours, I'm -- I think I may have one more
22 question for the witness; however, I wonder if we could take the break
23 just now and it may be that I have no more questions after the break,
24 Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we'll take the break first.
1 Mr. Jovicic, we'll take a break. We'd like to see you back in 20
2 minutes. You may follow the usher.
3 [The witness stands down]
4 JUDGE ORIE: We take a break and we'll resume at ten minutes
5 to 11.00.
6 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.
7 --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.
8 JUDGE ORIE: While we are waiting for the witness to be escorted
9 into the courtroom, I take my next item on the Kupresanin remaining
10 issues list. It's about P6996, which was also marked for identification.
11 P6996, an intercepted telephone conversation between Jovan Tintor
12 and Mirko Jovic, marked for identification pending the formulation by the
13 Defence of its objection, transcript pages 29692 to 94. The Chamber
14 would like to hear if the Defence is in a position to formulate that
16 I don't know who's going to do it, and when, but it's a while ago
17 now that the document was marked for identification so we would expect --
18 well, let's say, the objection to be formulated not any later than by
19 Monday next week.
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] We understand, Your Honours.
21 This is exactly what we are going to do.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. We will hear from you.
23 Perhaps where the witness has not arrived yet, another item in
24 relation to the testimony of Goran Krcmar about P7171. This document was
25 marked for identification pending an agreement between the parties as to
1 which excerpts would be tendered, and the Chamber wonders whether the
2 parties have come to an agreement and would appreciate if it would be
3 informed about an agreement later today.
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. MacDonald, you were considering whether or not
6 you would put another question to the witness.
7 MR. MacDONALD: Yes, Mr. President. I'm afraid it's multiplied
8 into two questions. I hope that's sufficient.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I hope it doesn't go beyond that.
10 Please proceed.
11 MR. MacDONALD:
12 Q. Mr. Jovicic, the Chamber has heard evidence in this case that
13 hand-grenade handles were found outside and around the Kravica warehouse.
14 Did you see at any point people throwing hand-grenades at the Kravica
16 A. No.
17 Q. And today when we looked at the Kravica warehouse footage in slow
18 motion, I asked if you saw the man walking beside the bus giving a
19 thumbs-up, and you said to you that looked like a closed fist. What, in
20 your opinion, does it signify when somebody raises a closed fist at a
21 camera that is filming them?
22 A. I've not seen this man before and I never saw him gesticulating
23 in that way before. I don't know what that means. I don't even know
24 whether he realised that he was being filmed. Today was the first time I
25 ever saw this footage featuring that man.
1 MR. MacDONALD: Nothing further, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. MacDonald.
3 Any further questions in re-examination, Mr. Stojanovic?
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Just a few, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
6 Re-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
7 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Jovicic, just to orientate ourselves in time
8 and space, could you tell us, to the best of your recollection and
9 knowledge, what is the distance between the place that we referred to as
10 Sandici meadow and the Kravica warehouse?
11 A. From the Sandici pass to the Kravica warehouse, there is about
12 1500 metres or somewhat less. This is my estimate, or rather, a
13 guesstimate, about 1500 metres.
14 Q. To the best of your recollection, after General Mladic left
15 Sandici, after he had addressed the prisoners, how long after that did
16 you head in the direction of Konjevic Polje?
17 A. After a very short while. We lingered on just for a short while
18 and then we headed for Konjevic Polje.
19 Q. Did you notice anybody while you were there, did you notice any
20 of the prisoners in the meadow being taken from there in the direction of
22 A. No.
23 Q. The next thing I would like to ask you is this: Could you give
24 us an estimate of the distance between the Kravica warehouse and the
25 Bratunac outpatient's clinic --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, in general, the Chamber is better
2 assisted by measurement on maps than by estimates, rough estimates -
3 sometimes right, sometimes wrong - by witnesses. So why would you not
4 agree with the Prosecution on what that distance is? Then we have a
5 precise indication rather than a rough estimate by a witness.
6 Please proceed.
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps the Prosecutor and me
8 could agree on the distance. This was supposed to be my foundation. I
9 will proceed with my next question.
10 Q. You were in a car. How long did you take you [as interpreted] to
11 travel that distance between Kravica and the outpatient clinic in
13 A. Some 20 to 25 minutes.
14 Q. Thank you. And now I would like us to look at P1477.
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we zoom in on the central
16 part, which is a protocol number 1491.
17 Q. Mr. Jovicic, does the name Krsto Dragicevic ring a bell?
18 A. He was a member of the special police of the MUP of
19 Republika Srpska. I believe that he was in the Sekovici Detachment in
20 the Skelani Platoon.
21 Q. It says in this protocol that on the 13th of July, 1995, he was
22 admitted at the outpatient's clinic. Do you know what had happened to
23 this member of your unit?
24 A. As far as I heard, he was wounded in the same incident that had
25 taken place at the farm, together with Cuturic.
1 Q. Do you know what the name was of the member of your unit who was
2 killed in the incident?
3 A. Perhaps it was Krsto. I can't remember. I know that he was
4 seriously wounded and he succumbed to his wounds later. I know that one
5 member of our unit did get killed in that incident, but I really can't
6 remember who it was. Perhaps it was Krsto.
7 Q. Tell me, did there come a moment when you heard or saw the
8 wounded person being brought into the outpatient clinic?
9 A. As soon as we arrived there, Borovcanin sent me back. So I was
10 there for a very short time. Borovcanin got off the car, and I was about
11 to get out of the car, he ordered me to go back to the farm to see what
12 had happened. I went there and I learned that a member of our unit had
13 been killed and that the officer, Rade, was wounded.
14 Q. Let me finish with the following question: When did
15 Rade Cuturic, also known as Oficir, get killed?
16 A. I believe that it was in 1995, somewhere in the area of Ozren.
17 Q. Mr. Jovicic, we have no further questions for you. Thank you on
18 behalf of the General Mladic Defence.
19 A. Thank you.
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you very
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.
23 Mr. MacDonald, before I ask you whether you have any further
24 questions to the witness -- was the last two, three minutes, was there
25 anything which is in dispute between the parties, that is, about
1 Mr. Dragicevic who may have died, whether it was about -- whether
2 Mr. Cuturic later died. I don't know how that appears from
3 cross-examination, but is there -- was there any matter of dispute so
4 that we would be aware of that? And I'm talking about since we looked at
5 this record of the medical centre.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, just because of my history with
7 this, I don't believe that any -- I'm not aware of a dispute why certain
8 things would be emphasised.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm not exactly sure, though the death of
11 someone, so that you know he's not being called as a witness might have
12 been helpful.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, although -- Mr. -- it doesn't arise from
14 cross-examination why Mr. Cuturic was not called as a witness?
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, and I don't think so. I was just saying that
16 that -- you might find that helpful.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 Mr. Stojanovic, you'll understand why I asked this question
19 because most of what was said, and apart from if you don't call a witness
20 for any specific reason, then of course you could tell us. Just say,
21 well, we can't call him because he died. So, therefore, could you please
22 keep in mind that re-examination is to clarify matters which are in
23 dispute and which arise from cross-examination.
24 Any further questions, Mr. MacDonald?
25 MR. MacDONALD: Nothing, Your Honours. Thank you.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Jovicic, this concludes your testimony.
2 I'd like to thank you very much for coming the long way to The Hague and
3 for having answered all the questions that were put to you, questions
4 that were put to you by the parties, questions that were put to you by
5 the Bench. I wish you a safe return home again, and you may now follow
6 the usher.
7 And the usher is invited to escort the next witness into the
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 [The witness withdrew]
11 MR. MacDONALD: Mr. President, I'd ask that myself and my
12 colleague Mr. Corliss be excused.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you're excused.
14 MR. MacDONALD: I'm obliged.
15 JUDGE ORIE: And I see we get, in return, we get Ms. Edgerton.
16 Meanwhile I use the time again to deal with a matter related to
17 the testimony of Goran Krcmar. It's about associated exhibits. Because
18 in relation to the Witness Krcmar, there was 17 associated exhibits
19 tendered pursuant to the Rule 92 ter motion; however, these associated
20 exhibits were not tendered with the witness in court due, in part, to the
21 fact that the translations - which were not CLSS translations - did not
22 correspond to the B/C/S originals.
23 The Chamber would like to know whether the Defence can, one,
24 confirm whether or not it still intends to tender the 17 associated
25 exhibits or whether it would formally withdraw some or even all of them;
1 and, two, say when it expects to have CLSS translations for the
2 associated exhibits that require translation.
3 When do you think we could receive an answer, Mr. Stojanovic?
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, by Monday, about
5 the same time as we're supposed to provide you with the answer to your
6 previous question.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.
8 [The witness entered court]
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave, I
10 would like to address you with a procedural issue. I was asked by --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Is this -- does the witness have to attend that?
12 And is it of such urgency that we should let the witness wait now or
13 could we do it at the end of this session, after we have the witness sent
14 for a short break?
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I believe that the witness can
16 be present. I don't see a problem in that.
17 JUDGE ORIE: No, but is it needed to do it when the witness is
18 waiting for us or could we do it at the end of the session we're in now?
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, no -- we can, yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll wait. We'll first proceed with the
21 witness, who is standing there now ready for one or two minutes, and
22 we'll hear from you at the end of this session, Mr. Stojanovic.
23 Witness, may I take it that you're Mr. Micic. Mr. Micic, before
24 you give evidence, the Rules require that you make a solemn declaration.
25 The text is now handed out to you. May I invite you to make that solemn
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]. May I? I solemnly declare that I
3 will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
4 WITNESS: DUSAN MICIC
5 [Witness answered through interpreter]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Micic.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Micic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Ivetic.
9 You'll find Mr. Ivetic to your left, standing. Mr. Ivetic is a member of
10 the Defence team of Mr. Mladic.
11 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
12 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour. And perhaps with the
13 assistance of the usher, I can pass a hard copy of his statement to
14 opposing counsel before going to the witness.
15 Examination by Mr. Ivetic:
16 Q. Good day, sir. Can you please state your full name and last name
17 for our record.
18 A. Good day. My name is Dusan Micic.
19 MR. IVETIC: And at this time, Your Honours, I would call up in
20 e-court 65 ter number 1D4472.
21 Q. Sir, do you recognise this statement from the Karadzic
23 A. Yes.
24 MR. IVETIC: If I could please turn to the last page of the same
25 in both versions.
1 Q. Sir, do you recognise whose signature we see here?
2 A. Yes, I do.
3 Q. And whose signature is it?
4 A. My own.
5 Q. And the date that is recorded here, is that in accord with your
6 recollection of the date when you would have signed this statement?
7 A. Yes, most probably.
8 Q. Subsequent to signing this statement, did you have occasion to
9 read the same fully, to verify that everything is correctly recorded
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And is everything accurately recorded therein?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. Now, if I were to ask you questions today based on the same facts
15 and topics as in your written statement, would your answers today be the
16 same as recorded in your written statement?
17 A. Yes, by and large, yes.
18 Q. Now, since you've taken a solemn declaration to tell the truth
19 today, can we then conclude that the answers as contained in your written
20 statement are truthful in nature?
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I would tender 1D4472 into evidence.
23 There are no associated exhibits.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D977, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: In the absence of any objections, D977 is admitted.
2 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 I would now read the witness summary, a copy of which has been
4 given to the booths.
5 The witness, Dusan Micic, was born in Bratunac municipality. In
6 early May 1992, he was mobilised and assigned to the military police in
7 Bratunac, which was part of the Territorial Defence.
8 Members of the military police who were lacking discipline or
9 engaging in criminal acts were removed by the commander. Further
10 processes against them were carried out by the civilian police because
11 military courts were not yet in function.
12 While patrolling the town, when passing the Vuk Karadzic school,
13 he saw unfamiliar soldiers taking people out of the school. Later it
14 turned out the majority of these soldiers were paramilitaries. He did
15 not note any abuse at the school.
16 In March 1993, the witness joined the civilian police as a
17 reservist. In addition to work as a patrolman, he became part of the PJP
18 from the Zvornik centre. He was commander of the 3rd Platoon of the
19 1st Company of the Zvornik PJP. The PJP wore camouflage military
20 uniforms with the PJP insignia on the sleeves.
21 On July 1995 as part of the PJP, he was in Potocari and saw
22 General Ratko Mladic distributing cigarettes and food to Muslim
23 civilians. He saw that many members of his unit also gave food and water
24 to the Muslims gathered there.
25 After the funeral of his slain PJP colleague, the witness was
1 sent with other members of his PJP company to Baljkovica because a VRS
2 unit had been surrounded by the enemy. Many Serb police and soldiers
3 were casualties at this location; 80 were killed and over 100 wounded.
4 The Muslims who were breaking through towards Tuzla were appearing from
5 all sides. This lasted the entire day.
6 And that concludes the summary.
7 Q. Now, sir, I want to ask you some questions to clarify some
8 portions of your statement.
9 MR. IVETIC: If we could first turn to paragraph 3 on page 1 in
10 both versions.
11 Q. Sir, here you say that military policemen who were lacking in
12 discipline and committing crimes were removed from service. How many
13 such military policemen were there that this happened to?
14 A. I'm aware of perhaps two or three cases.
15 Q. Okay. And now I want to turn to paragraph 6 of the statement --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, "perhaps two or three" is a rather vague
18 Could you tell us whether -- do you remember names of the two or
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I can't remember the name
21 now. The commander was the kind of man who did not allow any unlawful
22 behaviour. It was mostly about illegal entries into apartments.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Now, you say you are perhaps aware of two or three
24 cases, which leaves it open that it could be one case or five cases or no
25 case at all. Therefore, I'm -- do you remember two or three cases or are
1 you uncertain about it?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember it, but I don't remember
3 the names of the people involved. I'm quite sure about the cases.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Do you remember any other details?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nothing in particular.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
7 MR. IVETIC:
8 Q. Sir, if we can focus at paragraph 6 of the statement, which is on
9 the bottom of the page in both languages. You talk of the Vuk Karadzic
10 school and seeing some unfamiliar soldiers taking people out of the
11 school. Can you clarify for us what year this is taking place in?
12 A. Well, in this paragraph I was talking about 1992.
13 MR. IVETIC: If we can turn to the next page in both versions.
14 Q. In your continued description of this incident, you say that:
15 "It later turned out that the majority of these people in uniform
16 were paramilitaries ..."
17 What is the basis of your knowledge that they were
19 A. Well, while going about my regular work and patrolling the town,
20 I toured the town and I noticed men in camouflage uniforms with white
21 belts and while belts across the chest but I didn't recognise any of
22 them, which means that they were not from the Bratunac Brigade, they were
23 not from Bratunac. After I don't know how much time, I learned from my
24 colleagues and friends that these people had come from other areas, maybe
25 Serbia, maybe Croatia, from another theatre of war.
1 Q. Okay. Now, if we could look at paragraph 10 which is in the
2 middle of the page, the incident when you and a colleague escorted two
3 buses of Muslims to the Luke area, what year or time-period is this?
4 A. Well, it was 1992, probably in May, but I can't remember the
6 Q. Okay. Now, if we look at paragraph 12 which starts on the bottom
7 of the page in Serbian and is at the bottom of the page in English, you
8 mention a school. What school are you talking about in this paragraph of
9 your statement?
10 A. This school in the centre of Bratunac was then called
11 Vuk Karadzic. Now it's called Branko Radicevic.
12 Q. And in relation to the events that are described in paragraph 12,
13 what time-period is involved, what year?
14 A. Again, it's 1992, the month of May. Now I don't know the date.
15 Q. Okay. Now if we could look at paragraph 37, and this is on
16 page --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic.
18 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: -- if you're moving to a different area, I would
20 have two follow-up questions in order to better understand the testimony
21 of the witness.
22 First of all, you said you saw persons with white belts. What
23 does that mean to you? What do white belts stand for?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] White belts are a part of the
25 uniform of the military police.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then another question I would have, you said
2 they came from elsewhere. You learned from colleagues that they came
3 from other areas, maybe Serbia, maybe Croatia.
4 Was there no certainty about where they had come from?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, some were from Serbia, some
6 were from Croatia. That's what people said.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, finally in relation to paragraph 8 of
8 your statement, you are saying in that paragraph that you were instructed
9 by your commander during a working meeting that you should not go to that
10 school. Did he give any explanation as why you shouldn't go there or
11 what was the reason, if you know?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, somebody said at a meeting
13 that he knew there was a large group of Muslims who had been placed in
14 the gym of a school, and he didn't know what it was all about but he
15 prohibited us from going near there because he didn't want us to have
16 anything to do with it.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But you were -- in your functioning, you were
18 patrolling. And was any reason given why you should stay away from
19 that -- from that building?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, my personal opinion is that
21 since the commander didn't know anything about it, that that was the
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, now forgive me, but if I have certain duties
24 and if I don't know anything about a matter, I would rather go and see
25 what happens so that you would know what happens. That is perhaps
1 another kind of logic. Do you have any comment on why you say: Well, we
2 don't know what happens there, so we stay out, rather than: We don't
3 know what happens there; therefore, we go and explore it?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's what he said and the
5 commander's word has to be obeyed.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I see that. You never went there, you never
7 saw personally a larger number of Muslims in the gym or in the school?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I never went into the gym. I said
9 a moment ago that while on patrol I passed by the school going along the
10 high street, and I saw a group of people coming out. They were being
11 taken to drink water. They acted normally. There was no ruckus, nobody
12 was beating anyone.
13 JUDGE ORIE: You've answered my question.
14 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: I have a follow-up question.
16 Sir, you said to the question -- in answer to the question by the
17 Judge that white belts were part of the uniform of the military police.
18 Do you remember that?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I said that.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: I see in your statement you say now these were
21 paramilitaries, not military police. On what basis did you come to the
22 conclusion that they were paramilitaries and not military police?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At first sight, I thought they
24 could be military police because of their white belts and cross-belts.
25 And then later, from other people, I heard that it was a paramilitary
1 unit. Even the paramilitary men could have worn white belts.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could have, but did they? That's the question.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I don't understand
4 the question.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, if you say they can, anybody can do
6 anything; but whether a person has done something is a fact. Now, I want
7 to know if you don't know whether they did wear on that day --
8 paramilitaries were wearing white belts, how do you come to the
9 conclusion that these were paramilitaries? Civilians could also wear
10 white belts. And the reason I'm asking this question is because you know
11 that white belts are part of the uniform of the military police.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't know these men.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: I understand that.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So I inferred that they were people
15 from outside, not local people, that they were not from Bratunac.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's not my question. I don't know -- it
17 doesn't matter where they came from, but your knowledge was that military
18 police uniform has as part of it white belts. On what basis do you come
19 to the conclusion that these are not military police but paramilitaries?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I heard that later from my
21 colleagues, from my friends, that's what people said around Bratunac and
22 that's the same as my own conclusion.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
24 Mr. Ivetic.
25 MR. IVETIC:
1 Q. If we can turn to page 6 in both languages and focus on
2 paragraph 37 of your statement. And here you are discussing the
3 situation at Baljkovica. For the record, can you describe for us where
4 this location is?
5 A. Baljkovica is approximately 20 kilometres away from Zvornik in
6 the direction of Tuzla.
7 Q. And you list here the casualties incurred by your forces. Did
8 you have any idea or indication of the size of the opposing enemy forces
9 that engaged you?
10 A. Well, after the fighting was over, when I was returning from the
11 mission, I heard in Zvornik that the Muslims outnumbered us perhaps 5:1
12 or even 10:1.
13 Q. And what was the size of the combined police and army forces on
14 the Serb side at that location engaged in combat?
15 A. Well, where I was there were about 300 men.
16 Q. Okay. And what kind of armaments or weapons did the enemy side
17 use in this engagement?
18 A. In that skirmish, they used all kinds of weapons, starting with
19 infantry weapons to artillery.
20 Q. What kind of artillery was involved?
21 A. I remember clearly that during that night after I arrived at
22 Baljkovica with my unit, not far from my unit - I don't know how many
23 kilometres away - they had captured three self-propelled artillery pieces
24 from the Serbian side.
25 Q. Okay. And were those three self-propelled artillery pieces from
1 the Serbian side used by the Muslim side during this engagement?
2 A. During that skirmish, they mostly used these self-propelled
3 artillery weapons.
4 Q. And you indicate in your statement that you believe you stayed
5 there one day and you're not sure about the night. Do you have any idea
6 of how long the combat or skirmishing lasted in that area?
7 A. Well, the fighting went on almost all day, from early morning
8 hours to the evening.
9 Q. Mr. Micic, on behalf of General Mladic and the rest of the team,
10 I thank you for answering my questions today.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.
14 Mr. Micic, could you be a bit more precise as when you arrived --
15 as you said you were sent by -- you went by bus to Baljkovica. When did
16 you leave, when did you arrive there?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember the exact date.
18 JUDGE ORIE: I'm more interested in the time of the day.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I arrived in my unit the night
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
22 You'll now be cross-examined by Ms. Edgerton. You find
23 Ms. Edgerton to your right, Mr. Micic. Ms. Edgerton is counsel for the
24 Prosecution. Carefully listen to her questions and answer them.
25 Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.
1 Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton:
2 Q. Good morning, Mr. Micic.
3 A. Good morning.
4 Q. I want to start very quickly by asking you just a couple of
5 questions about your platoon that you commanded.
6 Now, that was made up of about 20 people; right?
7 A. There were more, around 30.
8 Q. And those were people from Zvornik, Milici, Bratunac, and the
9 Skelani police stations; right?
10 A. I was commander of the 3rd Platoon. There were not people from
11 Zvornik, actually. I was commander of the 3rd Platoon, and I had under
12 me members from Milici, Skelani, and Bratunac.
13 Q. Okay. So when you said in your statement that - and it's in
14 paragraph 32 - when you talked about going with policemen from your
15 station in Bratunac to your colleague's funeral on the afternoon of
16 the 13th, that means the majority of your platoon stayed in Sandici;
18 A. You could say that, yes.
19 Q. Well, I just asked you the question. So did they or didn't they?
20 A. Yes, that's right.
21 Q. So the policemen from Milici and Skelani, the PJP members of the
22 3rd Platoon of the 1st Company from Milici and Skelani remained in
23 Sandici; do I understand you right?
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: I think the witness's answer was not heard. He
25 said "yes," he said "da."
1 MS. EDGERTON:
2 Q. Can you confirm what I just put to you?
3 A. Yes, what you said is correct.
4 Q. Okay. Thank you.
5 Now, my colleague Mr. Ivetic asked you a couple of questions
6 about your deployment to Baljkovica, and I just want to help you along a
7 little bit in terms of when this took place, and I'd like to do that by
8 showing you a document.
9 MS. EDGERTON: It's 65 ter number 4082, please.
10 Q. So this is a combat report created by Ljubisa Borovcanin for the
11 period of July 10 to 20, 1995, and you know that Mr. Borovcanin was in
12 command of MUP units in the Zvornik area during this period. And I'd
13 like to take us to the entry for the 15th of July.
14 MS. EDGERTON: And that's at ET and B/C/S page 3, please.
15 I'll just wait for a second until we see the English one. Great.
16 Thank you.
17 Q. Now, just have a look at the third -- give me a second. At the
18 third paragraph under that heading, and it says:
19 "In the afternoon," referring to the 15th of July, "an offensive
20 MUP combat group comprising the 2nd and 4th Special Police Detachments
21 and a tank and a Praga and a BOV 20/3, a mortar platoon, and the
22 1st Company of the Zvornik Special Police Unit was sent in the direction
23 of Donja Baljkovica and Crni Vrh to block the area and prevent a
24 breakthrough towards Zvornik by a strong enemy column ..."
25 So when it talks about the 1st Company of the Zvornik Special
1 Police Unit, that's your company; right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. So it's fair to say that your deployment to Baljkovica was on the
4 afternoon of the -- started on the afternoon of the 15th of July, 1995;
6 A. Most probably in the afternoon or early evening that we arrived
7 at Baljkovica. As for Crni Vrh, I don't know anything about it.
8 Q. All right.
9 MS. EDGERTON: Could I have this as a Prosecution exhibit,
10 please, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic.
12 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, the part that has been presented to
13 the witness has been read into the record and the witness has given his
14 testimony about that. We've heard no other testimony linking other parts
15 of this document to the witness's knowledge. It's a five-page document,
16 at least in the translation, I don't know the original, so there's a lot
17 of information in there that we know nothing about and whether this
18 witness has any knowledge of the same.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton.
20 MS. EDGERTON: I'm more than happy to keep coming back to this
21 document during the course of the cross-examination, and probably at that
22 point Mr. Ivetic might effectively change his mind.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Wouldn't -- well, whether he changes his mind or not
24 is still to be seen.
25 MS. EDGERTON: I'll tender it later, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: You'll tender it -- should we mark it for
2 identification at this moment, in view of what Ms. Edgerton announced
3 would happen?
4 MR. IVETIC: That's fine.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, the number?
6 THE REGISTRAR: Would be MFI P7271, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: P7271 is marked for identification.
8 If you are going to use it very often, Ms. Edgerton, the original
9 has some handwritten English text on top of it, document number 5, four
10 pages, which, by the way, is not -- well, I couldn't say translated into
11 the English version but does not appear in the English version. And, of
12 course, that is four pages, is easy to find out because that's what it is
13 in the original. But document number 5 is a puzzling annotation. If you
14 would spend any time on it, sooner or later, please do so, and also why
15 it doesn't appear in the English version.
16 MS. EDGERTON: Understood, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
18 MS. EDGERTON:
19 Q. And now you spoke, Mr. Micic, about the artillery pieces that the
20 Muslims were using and mentioned that those forces had captured three
21 self-propelled artillery guns from the Serbian side. And those were, you
22 can confirm this, just 76-millimetre artillery pieces, weren't they?
23 A. I don't really know much about this kind of ordnance. All I know
24 is that those were three self-propelled anti-aircraft guns.
25 Q. So since you know that they're anti-aircraft guns, what kind of
1 calibre were they?
2 A. I cannot tell you. I'm not expert in these things. I don't know
3 about the calibre.
4 Q. Fine. And since you were there at the time, you would know that
5 those three guns were captured as a result of what the Zvornik -- the
6 Drina Corps Command -- actually, let me rephrase that.
7 Those three guns were recaptured as a result of what a VRS
8 commander described as a synchronised kamikaze attack with numbers of the
9 masses of people streaming towards your lines, jumping on them to take
10 control. You know that, don't you, everybody was talking about it?
11 A. What am I supposed to answer?
12 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you're supposed to tell us whether you knew
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I knew that the guns had been
15 captured sometime before sunrise because my men who were deployed in that
16 sector had stopped some people who were running for their lives away from
17 the Muslims, and that's how I heard these guns had been captured.
18 MS. EDGERTON:
19 Q. All right. So let's go through this step by step. You -- on
20 site, you knew that the Muslims had penetrated Serb lines; right?
21 A. Yes, yes, I knew that.
22 Q. You knew --
23 A. That's why I was there in the first place.
24 Q. And you knew that Serb forces actually lost three trenches;
1 A. I didn't know about three trenches. I knew about three
2 self-propelled anti-anti-aircraft guns. And a gun is one thing and a
3 trench is another thing.
4 Q. You knew that your forces were suffering substantial casualties;
5 you said that in your statement?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You knew that even one of your own company was killed; right?
8 A. Yes, a man from my company, a man from Zvornik died there in that
10 Q. You knew that the danger -- that the pressure and danger posed by
11 these forces was putting your people at risk of being cut off and
12 surrounded; right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You knew that Serb forces couldn't hold out for long in the face
15 of that kind of pressure, didn't you?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And if that kind of fighting continued, you would have taken just
18 more losses; right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. So maybe then you would agree with me that to save the lives of
21 the police, the soldiers, the Serb forces who were on those lines, the
22 only logical military choice was to open up that corridor that got opened
23 up later in the day on the 16th, to let the Muslim forces through; right?
24 A. I heard later that the corridor had been opened. I didn't know
25 who made decisions, who had spoken to whom. I was not aware of those
1 command decisions at all.
2 Q. I didn't ask you if you were aware of the command decisions. I
3 was asking you whether you agreed that in all these circumstances we
4 discussed, that was the only logical military choice to save the lives of
5 your forces.
6 A. Well, it depended on the way of thinking. I can't be the judge
7 of that decision and say that that was the only option or perhaps there
8 were other options as well. I can't say anything about that. Most
9 probably that was the only option. Since we were outnumbered by the
10 attackers, I would be prone to believe that.
11 Q. All right. And the other thing that that did in the end of
12 everything was it got thousands of Muslims completely out of the enclave
13 with as few casualties to your forces as possible; right?
14 A. Could you be more precise? I don't seem to understand your
15 question. Could you be more specific?
16 Q. Okay.
17 JUDGE ORIE: When you are about to rephrase your question,
18 Ms. Edgerton, I would even be inclined to give you 20 minutes for that,
19 namely, during the break.
20 MS. EDGERTON: Oh, yes, I'd lost track of the time, Your Honours.
21 I'm sorry.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. No, it's my task to keep an eye on that.
23 MR. IVETIC: If I can assist as well, Your Honours. The document
24 we used that has now been marked for identification at P7271 is already
25 in evidence as P724, or at least a more complete version of the report
1 with that first page is at that exhibit number, so that might assist
2 Ms. Edgerton as he prepares the rest of her cross.
3 MS. EDGERTON: It assists all of us, Your Honours, and I'm
4 grateful to Mr. Ivetic.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, which makes any objection moot therefore.
6 Witness, we'll take a break of 20 minutes. We'd like to see you
7 back after that. You may now follow the usher.
8 [The witness stands down]
9 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at quarter past 12.00.
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. ...
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise once again,
13 Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Stojanovic, I have to apologise. I
15 offered you an opportunity to address us which I had forgotten about,
16 which is not --
17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I've been asked by
18 General Mladic to convey a piece of information. He has an appointment
19 with the liaison officer with the International Criminal Tribunal and
20 that appointment should take place about half past 1.00, and the General
21 is kindly asking you to be able to leave the courtroom after the
22 following break. He is agreeable that the examination of this witness is
23 completed today in his absence, but the witness after that is very
24 important to him, so he would kindly ask you not to start his testimony
25 before he is able to return back to the courtroom.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That would mean that we would not start until
2 Monday with the next witness because half past 1.00 until the end of the
3 session, that --
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: It's hereby clearly on the record that Mr. Mladic
6 waives his right to attend court when we are concluding hearing the
7 evidence of the present witness, but he does not waive his right to
8 attend when the next witness will appear before this Court.
9 Mr. Mladic -- one second.
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, could you tell us - and I should have
12 it somewhere - how much time you would need with Mr. Micic?
13 MS. EDGERTON: I had asked for half an hour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MS. EDGERTON: And I'll be very brief after we resume,
16 Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I would suggest the following that we
18 would start with the next witness, but if, Mr. Mladic, that we would stop
19 at 1.30 or close to 1.30 and not continue to hear the evidence of the
20 next witness in the absence of Mr. Mladic. He waives his right but if
21 Ms. Edgerton needs only so little time, we could start with the next
22 witness but we'll not continue once Mr. Mladic has left for his meeting.
23 Another matter is -- but the meeting was with the liaison officer
24 with the International Criminal Tribunal, liaison officer of --
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] The liaison officer of Bosnia
1 and Herzegovina, Mr. Trivun Jovicic. He is the liaison officer with the
2 ICTY. And according to General Mladic, this meeting should take place
3 between 1330 and 1400 hours in the Detention Unit.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, what I do not fully understand why such
5 meetings are planned at the time when Mr. Mladic is supposed to be in
7 And, Mr. Stojanovic, I would urge you to try to find out whether
8 that meeting could take place later today, or tomorrow, because the
9 Chamber is not inclined to stop hearing evidence if -- without any
10 consultation with the Chamber, meetings are planned during court time. I
11 think it's the first time that it happens. So would you please try to
12 find out whether that meeting could be postponed. If not, we'll consider
13 what to do under the present circumstances. It's the first time that it
14 happens, but certainly for the future, Mr. Mladic should not schedule any
15 meetings with whomever at times when he is supposed to be in court.
16 We'll --
17 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, if I can clarify.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 MR. IVETIC: It's not a meeting that was set by Mr. Mladic. This
20 is the - a state official who is meeting all the detainees, and
21 Mr. Mladic was scheduled by UNDU at that time. It's not a meeting that
22 has been scheduled by the Defence.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If it was announced, then we'll certainly
24 address the UNDU and tell that they should either change their schedule
25 or -- I mean, the UNDU knows well when court hearings take place, and
1 therefore they should have considered that when scheduling all this. And
2 we'll address the Registry on the matter, and we'll try to find out
3 whether any change can be made in today's schedule so that we don't have
4 to unnecessarily lose time in court. We'll certainly address the matter
5 when -- during the next break. The next break which will last until 20
6 minutes past --
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
8 JUDGE ORIE: -- midday.
9 --- Recess taken at 12.01 p.m.
10 --- On resuming at 12.22 p.m.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, I would like to briefly address
12 the matter which was raised by you, Mr. Stojanovic.
13 First of all, the Chamber appreciates that Mr. Mladic took a
14 position in which he waived his right and clearly distinguished between
15 what is most important for him and what is still important but not that
16 important that he would not allow us to continue. That's highly
18 Second, the information the Chamber received until now is the
19 following: That it was not the UNDU which had determined that the
20 meeting should take place within the court hours, but that the liaison
21 officer had reported limited availability and today not until after the
22 time which was finally then scheduled. The Chamber does not agree that
23 the UNDU has agreed to such a meeting at a time when court is ongoing
24 because however important those meetings may be - and the Chamber
25 understands that this is, I would say, a routine meeting, there is not a
1 special urgency in this meeting - that meetings should be scheduled when
2 both parties to the meeting are available.
3 Now, we do understand that the liaison officer has reported
4 limited availability, but Mr. Mladic is, during court times, not
5 available for such meetings if there's no urgent matter. Therefore, at
6 this moment the Registry is seeking contact with the liaison officer in
7 order to have this meeting postponed or rearranged during at any other
8 time, and we would just continue in court as scheduled according to the
9 court calendar.
10 Then we perhaps already can invite the witness to be escorted
11 into the courtroom again.
12 Mr. Tieger.
13 MR. TIEGER: Mr. President, meanwhile perhaps I can address your
14 earlier inquiry about MFI P7171, about which you asked to be advised
15 before the end of the day. That particular document has essentially been
16 subsumed under larger discussions about demographics which have been
17 ongoing between the Prosecution and Defence -- in fact, we anticipated
18 further discussions about that today. But in light of the Court's
19 inquiry, we can certainly take parallel steps to address this particular
20 exhibit individually and hopefully come to a specific agreement, even
21 before the larger discussions are concluded.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. When do you think we could hear from you?
23 MR. TIEGER: Well, we'll certainly be talking about that
24 particular -- we can take the opportunity to talk about that particular
25 document today, and hopefully we can have an answer for you by Monday.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, let me then set the time-limit by Wednesday so
2 that some delay is already calculated.
3 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President.
4 JUDGE ORIE: That's when we would like to hear from you.
5 [The witness takes the stand]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Welcome back, Mr. Micic. Ms. Edgerton will now
7 continue her cross-examination.
8 MS. EDGERTON:
9 Q. So just to go back to that question that you were having a little
10 trouble with, Mr. Micic, before we broke. It was about the effect of
11 that corridor. So this Chamber's received evidence - and even from
12 Mr. Borovcanin in the document we had a discussion about, P724 - that
13 thousands of Muslim soldiers passed through that corridor while it was
14 open. So you would agree with me, I take it then, that the effect of the
15 corridor was that it got thousands of Muslims completely out of RS
16 territory with as few casualties to Serb forces as possible?
17 A. You can put it that way.
18 Q. All right. Then I have one last question. After the battles --
19 after the corridor closed, after the battles at Baljkovica took a
20 different shape, your job with the 1st PJP Company was that you continued
21 to comb the area that the column had come from to eliminate any remaining
22 Muslim forces; right? That was your job.
23 A. I don't remember that we combed the area, I can't remember that.
24 I know that after the end of Baljkovica we returned to our stations, and
25 we continued our regular police work in our police stations.
1 Q. Your company, the 1st PJP Company, was kind of like the elite
2 force of -- the elite company of the PJP, wasn't it? It was the fittest
3 guys, the best-prepared guys; that's correct, isn't it?
4 A. That is correct. That's how it was.
5 Q. So you're telling me now at the end of your testimony that the
6 strike force of the PJP, after the corridor of Baljkovica closed -- or
7 the corridor to let forces through to Nezuk closed on the 16th of July,
8 just went back to Bratunac and hung around doing normal police duties?
9 A. We did not hang around. We were assigned back to our original
10 stations, where we performed our normal, regular police duties.
11 Q. All right. Let's just close by having another look at P724.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps before we do that.
13 Witness, you told us:
14 "I don't remember that we combed the area. I can't remember
16 And then you say:
17 "I know that after the end of the Baljkovica was -- we returned
18 to our stations."
19 Now, if you don't remember whether you combed the area, if you
20 immediately went back to your stations, then should we understand that as
21 you did not comb the area?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember that I did that
23 with my men. It doesn't have to apply to the entire unit, but I know
24 that my men from Bratunac returned and continued performing their regular
25 tasks and duties.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Then you said:
2 "I know that after the end of the Baljkovica" you returned to
3 your stations. Was there immediately after the corridor had been opened
4 and immediately after any combat, or could it have been that "after the
5 end" means that after the combat and after you had done some additional
6 combing of the area?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We were not involved in the combing
8 of the area, no way. As soon as combat ended, we returned.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.
10 MS. EDGERTON:
11 Q. Right. So if we could -- oh, we've got P724 up on the screen in
12 front of us.
13 This is the report from Mr. Borovcanin that we looked at another
14 version of earlier, Mr. Micic.
15 Let's go, please, over to page 5 in both languages. Look at the
16 entry dated 18 July 1995. It says:
17 "A MUP combat group comprising the 2nd, 4th, and 5th Special
18 Police Detachments and the 1st Company of the Zvornik PJP combed the
19 areas of Cerska and Udrc ..."
20 Are you saying that Mr. Borovcanin is lying?
21 A. No, no, he's not lying. I can't say that Borovcanin is lying.
22 But I can't remember that, that's why I can't talk about any of that.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Well, Witness, you were ruling out, more or less,
24 that you had been involved. Are you saying: I don't remember. It may
25 have been the case? Or what is it? Are you positively saying: We were
1 not involved? Or are you saying: We may have been involved but I don't
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My answer is this: I don't
5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember everything, can I?
7 MS. EDGERTON:
8 Q. Mr. Micic, this Court has received evidence that people were
9 gunned down by -- in Cerska on the 18th of July by those forces that
10 Borovcanin is talking about in this document. Your memory is faulty only
11 because you don't want to implicate yourself. That's what's going on,
12 isn't it?
13 A. No. I can't implicate myself. I had nothing to do with that.
14 I'm not afraid. I can't -- I simply can't talk about I don't --
15 something I don't remember. If I told you I remember, then I would have
16 to give you details. Borovcanin knows. If that's what he said, then he
17 knows, and if the Trial Chamber has heard about that, then the
18 Trial Chamber knows about that. I can't remember.
19 Q. All right.
20 MS. EDGERTON: And I just want to clear up something,
21 Your Honour, to avoid -- to clear up a misstatement that I made. The
22 evidence related to the 18th of July is not specific to the forces
23 mentioned in that document, so I just want to be perfectly clear on that.
24 JUDGE ORIE: It's on the record.
25 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you. And actually I have no further
1 questions, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that, Ms. Edgerton.
3 Any further -- any re-examination by the Defence?
4 MR. IVETIC: No, Your Honours. I would just again thank the
5 witness on behalf of General Mladic and the rest of the team.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Since the Chamber also has no further questions ...
7 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, may I take it that where a document
9 was marked for identification earlier and where later Mr. Ivetic told us
10 that it was already in evidence, that you wish to withdraw the tendering
11 and that the number should be vacated?
12 MS. EDGERTON: Oh, absolutely, Your Honour. And my apologies.
13 The descriptions were completely different, and it was our oversight.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 Therefore, the number, Mr. Registrar, is vacated.
16 Mr. Micic, apologies for dealing with administrative matters
17 rather than addressing you. Mr. Micic, this concludes your evidence in
18 this court. I would like to thank you very much for coming the long way
19 to The Hague and for having answered all the questions that were put to
20 you, put to you by the parties and that were put to you by the Bench. I
21 wish you a safe return home again.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you and all the best to you
24 JUDGE ORIE: You may follow the usher.
25 [The witness withdrew]
1 JUDGE ORIE: I received the -- a short message from the Detention
2 Unit which explains briefly on how the scheduling of the appointment with
3 Mr. Mladic took place, and I read the last line:
4 "I have confirmed with Mr. Jovicic that he is content to await
5 the return of Mr. Mladic from court, in order to ensure that they have
6 their meeting without interfering with the proceedings."
7 I therefore suggest that we'll just continue and that we have the
8 next witness escorted into the courtroom.
9 Meanwhile, I would like to express the appreciation by this
10 Chamber for the flexibility in rescheduling that meeting by the liaison
12 Mr. Registrar, I take it that this will be brought to the
13 attention of the liaison officer.
14 [The witness entered court]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Pelemis, I take it.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon. You're right.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you
18 make a solemn declaration, the text of which is now handed out to you.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
20 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
21 WITNESS: MILORAD PELEMIS
22 [Witness answered through interpreter]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. You may be seated, Mr. Pelemis.
24 Mr. Pelemis, you'll first be examined by Mr. Lukic. Mr. Lukic is
25 counsel for Mr. Mladic.
1 Please proceed.
2 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
3 Before I start, I'll need the help from the usher to distribute
4 the statement summary to the court reporter and the booths, and one
5 statement for the witness. You can give it to the Prosecution to check.
6 JUDGE ORIE: The statements to the booths do not have to be --
7 only the statement which is given to the witness. If that's given to the
8 witness then --
9 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
10 JUDGE ORIE: And then if you would distribute that to the booth,
12 Mr. Lukic, please proceed.
13 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Examination by Mr. Lukic:
15 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon Mr. Pelemis.
16 A. Good afternoon.
17 Q. We speak the same language so I'll make a short pause after each
18 of your answers for the benefit of the interpreters, so I don't want you
19 to be confused if I wait a little after your answer.
20 Would you kindly tell us your name and surname for the record.
21 A. I am Milorad Pelemis.
22 Q. Mr. Pelemis, have you given a statement to the Defence team of
23 General Mladic?
24 A. Yes, I gave a statement in Belgrade a year or two ago.
25 Q. Did you have an opportunity to review your statement?
1 A. Yes, I have reviewed it. This is the statement that I have given
2 and I stand by it completely.
3 Q. Does the statement reflect accurately what you said?
4 A. Yes, it's all been recorded correctly. I have no comment and no
6 Q. Is it a truthful statement?
7 A. Yes. What I said in the statement is pure truth.
8 Q. If I were to put to you the same questions today, would you give
9 the same answers?
10 A. Yes.
11 MR. LUKIC: And can we have on our screens 1D1668, please.
12 Q. [Interpretation] On the screen before you is the first page of a
13 document. Do you recognise the signature?
14 A. Yes, it's my signature.
15 MR. LUKIC: Can we see the last page, please.
16 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Pelemis, do you recognise the signature on
17 this page?
18 A. Yes, it's the identical one, my signature.
19 MR. LUKIC: Your Honours, we would tender 1D1668 into evidence.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, the number would be?
21 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D978, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: In the absence of any objections, admitted.
23 MR. LUKIC: I'll read the statement summary of this witness and
24 then I'll have several questions for him. With your leave, I would start
25 with the statement summary, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
2 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
3 Milorad Pelemis was commander of the 10th Sabotage Detachment in
4 July 1995. Witness will testify on structure and functioning of
5 10th Sabotage Detachment, on its tasks and activities during relevant
6 period, especially in July 1995 regarding operation in Srebrenica and
7 upon its retrieval in Dragasevac.
8 Witness was absent from his unit after the 12th of July, 1995,
9 due to the injuries he sustained in the car accident on that day. He
10 later found out that members of his unit were participating in
11 liquidation of prisoners on Branjevo Farm on 16th of July, 1995. He will
12 further testify on details regarding engagement of his unit in Srebrenica
13 and individuals authorised to order usage of this unit.
14 Mr. Pelemis will testify that no one from the hierarchical
15 structure of the 10th Sabotage Detachment exercised command over this
16 group or issued an assignment to these people on that day, namely on the
17 16th of July, 1995, meaning nor Petar Salapura, nor General Mladic, nor
18 himself was in command of these people during executions on Branjevo
20 And that was the end of the statement summary.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please put any remaining questions to the witness as
22 you announced --
23 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: -- Mr. Lukic.
25 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
1 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Pelemis, let us focus on the time just
2 before the operation against Srebrenica. What orders did you receive
3 before the operation and what orders did you issue, to whom?
4 A. If we are talking about the period starting the 1st of July, we
5 were without any orders in Crna Rijeka defending the Main Staff. Then
6 the forces from Srebrenica and Zepa attacked and came to the gate of the
7 Main Staff. In the meantime, a group from the 10th Detachment --
8 Sabotage Detachment went on mission to Gradacac and reported to the Doboj
9 intelligence centre. Another group of about 30 men was engaged in the
10 defence of the Main Staff. We spent some time in combat together with
11 the protection regiment and the units from Pijesak until the 4th of July.
12 On 4 July, we received a few days of leave, but I received orders on the
13 6th of July to report to the Drina Corps --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please slow down slightly because the
15 interpreters have to be able to follow you. Please proceed. You left
16 off when you said: On the 4th of July, you received a few days of leave
17 but you received orders on the 6th of July to report to the Drina Corps.
18 Could you resume from there.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So on the 6th of July, I was
20 resubordinated to the Drina Corps, and my mission was to carry out
21 reconnaissance in the area of the Milici Brigade.
22 In the planning of this operation, I involved about 20 men from
23 the Vlasenica Platoon and we had ten men in Bijeljina in reserve. On the
24 6th of July, I reported to General Krstic, and he sent me to the
25 Milici Brigade, to join that brigade, to carry out combat tasks in the
1 western part of the area of the Milici Brigade around the hill called
3 Our mission was to take three bunkers from the defence line of
4 the 28th Division and to mount a blocking defence until we are replaced
5 by the Drina Corps. We spent two or three days there and there was
6 obstruction from the people holding that part of the line. They didn't
7 want to demine the minefield and they didn't want to co-operate. I did
8 not manage in those couple of days to find the commander of the Milici
9 Brigade, to speak to him, and on the 10th of July, in the early morning,
10 Major Pecanac came to this area, Pribicevac. He brought me orders that I
11 should go to the forward command post Pribicevac Srebrenica, and my task
12 was to provide security of the IKM Pribicevac.
13 Q. Where did Pecanac come? You speak so fast.
14 A. He came to Buljim.
15 Q. And from Buljim you go where?
16 A. I leave Buljim but I call another group from Bijeljina commanded
17 by Franz Kos and the rest of the people from Vlasenica, from logistics,
18 telling them to join us in Bratunac. They arrived at Bratunac around
19 noon or 1.00 p.m., and then we went all together via Sase to Pribicevac.
20 The unit was received by General Zivanovic and General Krstic.
21 Q. Do you recall when that was, what time?
22 A. Around 2.00 or 3.00 p.m. We couldn't have arrived earlier.
23 Q. What date?
24 A. 10th.
25 Q. Exact date?
1 A. 10 July 1995.
2 Q. Please go on.
3 A. There I received directly from General Krstic in the presence of
4 General Zivanovic to secure the command post in the broader area, which I
5 did with those 30 men. And we spent that day in dug-outs that existed
6 around the command post. And then for the first time, I saw fighting
7 around Srebrenica because until then we knew nothing about it.
8 On the 11th, in the morning, --
9 Q. Just a second. So that's the end of the 10th of July. What
10 happens on the 11th?
11 A. In the morning, around 5.00 or 6.00 in the morning on the 11th,
12 there was an attack by Muslims from Srebrenica, and they repelled our
13 forces some way back.
14 By 11.00 or 12.00, our forces remained -- managed to retake their
15 positions. Generals Zivanovic and Krstic together give me the task to go
16 to the area of the Zvornik Brigade to see Colonel Pandurevic, to get 30
17 men from him, and with that assault unit to enter Srebrenica and capture
18 important features. I was against using that unit because it was not a
19 unit meant to be used in assault, but Generals Zivanovic and Krstic
20 persisted and said I had to execute that order. I had my doubts because
21 I didn't want to advance and then to retreat and suffer losses, but they
22 told me to just do as I was told.
23 Q. After receiving this order, what did you do?
24 A. We walked from Pribicevac to the feature called Bojna where the
25 repeater was. That's about 2 kilometres from Srebrenica. There I met up
1 with forces of the Zvornik Brigade and Colonel Pandurevic. I told him
2 the corps command had ordered that my platoon -- in fact, my detachment
3 and one platoon from his forces go to Srebrenica to take the command of
4 the division, the municipal building, the courthouse, the communications
5 centre, and the police station.
6 Q. After you said that to Pandurevic, what happened?
7 A. Pandurevic was also reluctant to go into the town, and then
8 Pandurevic contacted Pribicevac with Pandurevic refusing to go into the
9 town. However, after about an hour, he gave me a platoon commanded by a
10 certain Mrga who got killed on the 16th or the 17th. About --
11 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness stop and repeat how many men.
12 JUDGE ORIE: I don't receive interpretation. The last thing we
13 heard that the witness was -- the interpreters invited the witness to
14 repeat the number he mentioned earlier.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. So how many men set out in the attack on Srebrenica?
17 A. 64.
18 Q. How many groups did you form?
19 A. The first thing I did was to tell all soldiers the rules of war.
20 I banned them from burning anything in the town. I reminded them about
21 the proper treatment of civilians. I told them that all the wounded and
22 all the civilians should be gathered in the centre of Srebrenica at the
23 school sports ground and that they would be taken over by the military
24 police. The Zvornik platoon took that role and the capturing of various
25 features was the task of the 10th Sabotage Detachment. So we set out
1 immediately, and by the warehouse of the Red Cross we came across two or
2 three women who were standing in the street. I introduced myself. At
3 first, they didn't believe me. And then I asked one of them to go behind
4 us and to inform people. I said nothing must happen to them, that I had
5 given orders that they should all be gathered in the school sports
6 grounds in the centre of Srebrenica. For their own safety.
7 Q. The women that you encountered, what was their ethnicity?
8 A. They were Muslims. We could tell by their clothes and then in
9 conversations with them. They were taken by surprise. We asked where
10 their troops where and they said: Well, they were here a minute ago,
11 they just ran by. They couldn't believe that the Serbian army was
12 entering. Throughout the entire time, those women were helping us, they
13 were inviting all the people on the right and the left side of the road
14 to come out. And then when we took the last facility, which was the
15 police station in Srebrenica, there were about 100 to 120 civilians
16 walking behind us, women, children, and the elderly, and some five to six
17 wounded people. Two or three were in uniform and two were in
19 Q. The civilians and the wounded, how far away were they from you?
20 A. Some 50 to a hundred metres behind us, depending on the
21 situation. We had our first skirmish in Petrica settlement near the
22 mosque, and we had to find shelter in a canal together with the
23 civilians. And after that, I ordered them to walk behind us at a
24 distance of some hundred metres, that the lads from the
25 Zvornik Detachment should keep them at a distance and make sure that
1 nobody got killed during our fighting on the way.
2 Q. On the way you had to engage in fighting. How many skirmishes
3 were there? How often, how serious?
4 A. The first somewhat stronger skirmish was in Petici [phoen]
5 settlement near the mosque, and I suppose that some five to ten soldiers
6 were there against us. The second was near Domovija Hotel where the
7 command of the 28th Division was. And the third time we had to fight at
8 the crossroads of the roads leading to Guber and to the centre. Our
9 fourth skirmish was in the centre with two members. And then the last
10 such resistance was put up -- or rather, they launched a counter-attack
11 near the police station in Srebrenica. They had come from the left-hand
12 side across the hilltop, and we suffered four wounded soldiers on that
13 last occasion.
14 Q. Which other men entered the town of Srebrenica together with you?
15 Did everybody enter? Could you tell us something about the deployment of
16 your unit?
17 A. My unit was deployed in the following way. We immediately agreed
18 that along the entire road we would leave a group of some three, four, or
19 five men to comb the houses and other facilities and to provide security
20 for the facilities of the 28th Division and the civilian authorities
21 until the moment the civilian police and security organs arrived and took
22 over their archives and documents.
23 The second group under the command of Drazen Erdemovic assumed
24 that task. The second section was taken over by the first group
25 commanded by Franz Kos. The third group under the command of Lule Jokic
1 took the court, the municipality, and the command of the brigade
2 buildings. And the last group composed of myself and some four or five
3 other lads stopped by the police station in Srebrenica.
4 Q. [Microphone not activated]
5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Microphone, please, Mr. --
7 MR. LUKIC: Sorry.
8 Q. [Interpretation] I apologise, my microphone was off so nothing
9 was recorded.
10 The first group led by Franz Kos, where was it deployed?
11 A. At the section from the Catholic church to the crossroads of the
12 roads leading to Guber on the one side and to the centre on the other
13 side. The length of that section of the road was about 500 metres.
14 Q. Group 2?
15 A. Group 2 --
16 Q. Headed by Drazen Erdemovic, as you said it.
17 A. Yes. Their position was from the Red Cross warehouse at the very
18 entrance into Srebrenica to Cicevac settlement and the Catholic church
20 Q. How long was that section that was guarded by Franz Kos's group
21 and how far was it from the centre?
22 A. Approximately 100 metres. That's how far his last soldier was
23 from the city centre or from the town centre, rather.
24 Q. You say the last one, do you mean the closest to the centre or
25 the furthest away from the centre?
1 A. The closest to the centre.
2 Q. And Group 2, the closest soldier?
3 A. He was some 600 metres away from the town centre.
4 Q. Can you remember who was in the group that you led in the centre?
5 A. The entire road was already occupied and Lule Jokic gave me four
6 man: Dragan Todorovic, Martic whose first name I don't know, Aleksandar
7 whom we called Aco whose family name I can't recall, and Zoran Stupar.
8 Four or five men all together, not more. And I took them over from
9 Lule Jokic.
10 Q. How close did Drazen Erdemovic get to the centre on that
12 A. Drazen Erdemovic remained in the second check-point near the
13 mosque in Petric settlement. I believe that he was some 700 or 800
14 metres away from the centre. He never got any closer than that. On that
15 occasion in a garage, in that part of the road, he found a Jugo car. He
16 asked me if he could confiscate it and take it to Bijeljina. I said yes.
17 As soon as we took the centre, Drazen Erdemovic got a task to go
18 to Bojna feature and to report to our two men who were already there as
19 members of the Zvornik Brigade, the driver and the communications man.
20 He was also asked to use the radio communications means and let us know
21 when General Mladic and others from the command entered Srebrenica and to
22 explain to them that the road was free for them to use it. He actually
23 did it immediately thereafter, so he did not spend a single minute in the
24 centre. He never came even close to it.
25 Q. And what did you do with the civilians, the wounded Muslim
2 A. They were behind us all that time. And in the centre where the
3 flag of the 28th Division was, we already occupation the centre.
4 Elements of the Zvornik and Bratunac Brigades appeared, and I only know
5 that I kept on communicating with a man who was around 28 years old and
6 who lost all his fingers as a result of an explosion and he wore a
7 camouflage uniform of the BiH army. He had a problem with some other
8 lads from other units. I suppose that they recognised him. I told him
9 to stand behind me and he managed to pass through, together with his
10 mother, and arrived -- he arrived next to the police station. He was
11 alive and well. I did not allow anybody to touch him.
12 Moreover, there were two other wounded persons in wheelchairs.
13 People from Bratunac recognised them as criminals, and I know that they
14 accused them of having hanged two 12-year-old boys on a cross and sent
15 them packing down the Drina River. I told everybody that nobody should
16 touch them either. The other soldiers respected me.
17 So those wounded people left in the direction of the playground
18 together with all the other civilians, and later on they continued
19 walking towards Potocari. They did not wait for the military police to
20 turn up.
21 Q. You mentioned two men in the centre of the town. That conflict,
22 that skirmish, with the two armed men in the centre, how was it? Can you
23 describe that for us?
24 A. Yes, I'm particularly keen to explain that because of Erdemovic,
25 and I will tell you why. Erdemovic ascribed that incident to me, but
1 I'll try and explain and tell you that Erdemovic could not have been an
2 eye-witness of that incident. He may have heard that there had been
3 problems, so in his own head, he construed the following story, or
4 rather, he had the story in his head, whereas the truth is as follows.
5 When we were in the centre of town and I was in the middle of a
6 conversation with my lads, I told them to take the big flag of the
7 28th Division. All the forces that were on our flanks descended down to
8 the centre. They started celebratory shooting into the air. There was
9 some 200 or 300 people there, tops. They were celebrating their victory.
10 At that moment, from a house on the side, two soldiers of the BiH army
11 ran out. One of them went left and the other ran past us and continued
12 running towards the police station. What I could observe was that he had
13 a semi-automatic rifle in his right hand. I opened fire against him
14 together with some two or three other lads from other units. Nobody hit
15 him, everybody missed. And those soldiers joked at my expense and teased
16 me that I was an officer and I still missed. Then we turned towards the
17 group in the centre, and I could see that the other soldier had been hit
18 and that he was lying next to the road. Some five to ten soldiers were
19 approaching him to convince themselves that he was dead. He took the
20 automatic rifle that they found on his body.
21 I also have to say that as we were passing through from the
22 beginning to the end to the moment when the town was taken or liberated,
23 I observed four or five slain soldiers of the BiH army. Nobody had
24 collected their bodies during the fighting.
25 Erdemovic says that I ordered that. Impossible. Because later
1 there was an investigation amongst ourselves, and we established that at
2 that moment Erdemovic was at the Bojna feature, where he was waiting for
3 the people from the staff and from the command in order to tell them that
4 the road was free. He was standing next to the overturned transporters
5 which was some 2 and a half kilometres from the place of the incident.
6 I can also add to that, that according to him, I was either a
7 lunatic or an idiot because he said that I -- because at the same time, I
8 had about 120 people behind me who were civilians and wounded, and then
9 all of a sudden it occurred to me to kill one soldier. First of all, I'm
10 an officer. My word is my bond. I'm still in communication with the
11 people in Srebrenica who know very well that I had done no harm to any of
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, the time estimate was still on 30
14 minutes? Because you're now far closer to 40 than to 30.
15 MR. LUKIC: Obviously this time -- usually I ask for enough time,
16 but today I'll need probably ten extra minutes. I apologise I didn't ask
17 at the beginning for more time.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, let's take the break first and then I would
19 like to keep you to those -- you said you'd need --
20 MR. LUKIC: Ten more minutes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Ten more minutes. From the 30 or from now, the 40?
22 MR. LUKIC: From now.
23 JUDGE ORIE: From now. We'll take a break. Ten minutes are
24 granted, but then you are 20 minutes beyond the original 30-minute time
1 The witness may follow the usher.
2 We'd like to see you back in 20 minutes, Mr. Pelemis.
3 [The witness stands down]
4 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at 20 minutes to 2.00.
5 --- Recess taken at 1.19 p.m.
6 --- On resuming at 1.41 p.m.
7 [The witness takes the stand]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, you may proceed and we'll carefully watch
9 how the clock ticks.
10 Please proceed.
11 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Pelemis, I would kindly ask you to keep your
13 answers short because we have a lot of ground to cover.
14 What was your relationship with Drazen Erdemovic? I know that
15 this will take a bit longer to answer.
16 A. I knew -- I've known Drazen Erdemovic since 1991, when he was a
17 member of the Guards Brigade in Belgrade, a professional soldier. He
18 fought in Vukovar, and in 1994 when the 10th Sabotage Detachment was
19 being established, he was among the ten Croats and Muslims who defected
20 into territory of Republika Srpska and joined the Army of
21 Republika Srpska. So he defected together with the others.
22 Until the moment he signed his contract, and up until around
23 March 1995, Erdemovic carried out all of his tasks. He was a good
24 soldier. Thanks to his dedication and knowledge, he was promoted into
25 sergeant. He signed that contract in February and he was Franz Kos's deputy.
1 In March, some problems arose, he started drinking heavily. He
2 was accused of some thefts around Bijeljina and all came to a head when
3 sometime in November or December he sold his house to a refugee from
4 Ilijas. He got 6.000 German marks. The man arrived with his wife and
5 children the following day, but on that occasion Drazen Erdemovic and
6 three other soldiers beat the man up. That man came to the barracks in
7 Bijeljina to see me. He was with his wife and three children, and he
8 complained about Erdemovic and his behaviour.
9 Then I called Erdemovic and asked him to face the man in my
10 office. The man immediately recognised him. I asked Erdemovic, "Do you
11 have the money to return to the man?" He said, "No." And then I asked
12 him, "Do you want me to give you a dead-line by which you're going to
13 return the money to the man?" And he said, "No, I spent the money."
14 Then I said, "As a human being, I have to help that man, he is a refugee
15 from Sarajevo, he has no place to sleep, he paid fairly for the house
16 which you cannot sell. Now you have to move out of your house, you have
17 to move in with our friends and we have to confiscate your car that you
18 used when you were wounded." After that he spread stories around the
19 unit that he would pay me back, that he would retaliate.
20 So all of our relations were good before March 1995, but then he
21 started drinking. When he started drinking, he first ill-treated his
22 wife and family and then he was involved in some threats and then he was
23 involved in the shooting on the 22nd July.
24 After that - and it is all well-documented - our relationship
25 came to nothing. All of my attempts to somehow help him - because he was
1 a family man - came to nothing. They were all in vain.
2 Q. What did you --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, the witness says "it's all well
5 Of course, in order to assess the reliability and the credibility
6 of this evidence, the Chamber would appreciate if you either would
7 address any documentation in relation to the wrong-doings of
8 Mr. Erdemovic or -- so that -- I don't know whether you intend to do
9 that, but -- such as name, selling the house, who it was, whether that is
10 confirmed by the victim.
11 Please proceed.
12 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
13 Q. [Interpretation] Do you remember the name of that man?
14 A. The man is still alive in Bijeljina. He has three children.
15 Q. And his name?
16 A. His name is Ljubo and he is prepared to testify.
17 Q. You mentioned some shooting on the 22nd of July. Who
18 participated in that shooting in addition to Erdemovic?
19 A. Seven or eight other members were involved. On the 23rd, when I
20 arrived in Bijeljina, when I had been invited to go there, I learned from
21 the MUP that the previous night 53 bullets had been fired. The other
22 participants were Zijad Zigic, Radislav Krmenovic, Stanko Savanovic.
23 Q. Very well.
24 A. Drazen Erdemovic and others. There were seven of them all
1 Q. Did you approach the superior command and talk to them about
2 Drazen Erdemovic at the end of 1995?
3 A. At the end of 1995, I sent a letter to the superior command,
4 asking them to talk to Drazen Erdemovic about his further stay in the
5 unit because his behaviour undermined the reputation of the unit and he
6 was no longer fit for the 10th Sabotage Detachment. I also asked them to
7 send him for a psychiatric consultation because of his alcohol abuse; he
8 was already an alcoholic by then. And already in the month of December
9 he started spreading some stories about Zvornik, and I asked them to talk
10 to him about that.
11 I tried to take a statement from him but he didn't want to give
12 it to him [as interpreted]. I asked him then to tell me about the
13 circumstances of his participation in those things, and he flatly refused
14 to give me any answers, and that's where my authorities ended. I
15 referred all the documents to the superior command, and I left it to them
16 to carry out further investigations.
17 Q. Just briefly, because our time is up, what was your relationship
18 with Boskic, good or bad?
19 A. Boskic was not an easy man to deal with. If you give him money,
20 he will be your man. He can be bought. I have nothing nice to say about
21 him. Of all the eight that signed the contract, he was one of the worst.
22 Q. Thank you. And very briefly, we've already gone over our time.
23 With your leave, I would ask you to explain about the 12th of July, the
24 APC turned over and you were injured.
25 A. Around 4.00 p.m., as we were approaching the base in Dragasevac,
1 there was a truck driving behind us and they tried to manoeuvre, to
2 intimidate me probably, and then he grazed the APC, pushing it to the
3 side. The APC fell down into a ditch 30, 40 metres below, in fact, it
4 was not a ditch, it was a deep, and I blacked out. I woke up in the
5 infirmary. I learned later that Koljivrat, Dragan was killed and
6 Filipovic was lying next to me injured. Since the hospital in Vlasenica
7 was full, they suggested to me that I continue my treatment in Sekovici.
8 They gave me an ambulance and we set out around 5.00 or 6.00 p.m. to
10 Q. What date?
11 A. On the 12th of July. As we went back from Vlasenica, I asked the
12 driver to stop by and I told the chief of logistics, Dragan Todorovic,
13 that they are free to take leave until 17 July. The troops already knew
14 that, but I asked him also to organise the funeral for Dragan Koljevic
15 because he was a logistics man, it was his job. I continued on to
16 Sekovici, to the hospital.
17 In Sekovici, there is a document in the archives that I was
18 received on the 12th of July, around 6.00 p.m., for treatment in the
19 hospital of Sekovici. I stayed there until 19 July, when I was picked up
20 by my brother from Belgrade, and he took me to Belgrade to his home,
21 where I had further scans and X-rays and continued my treatment.
22 The shooting in which those men were involved on the night of
23 the 22nd forced me to get a car to pick me up from Bijeljina. I had to
24 stop my medical examinations and treatment and go back.
25 Q. Thank you. Just one more question. Brano Gojkovic, what was his rank?
1 A. He was a private. He had no powers. He was not even a commander
2 of a subgroup. He was quite a brave man but not very responsible. He
3 was not fit for any great responsibility.
4 Q. The last question: Under normal circumstances, would he have
5 been able to command Dragan Erdemovic or Franz Kos?
6 A. In normal circumstances there was no way he could command Drazen Erdemovic
7 or Franc Kos, because, first of all, he was a private, Drazen Erdemovic
8 was a sergeant and Franz Kos was a second lieutenant or a lieutenant.
9 Second, Gojkovic was in a platoon, support platoon, from
10 Vlasenica, and the other two were from the sabotage platoon from
11 Bijeljina. He could absolutely not command the two of them.
12 Q. Thank you, Mr. Pelemis.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And I would like to thank the
14 Trial Chamber for their patience.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
16 Mr. McCloskey, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Pelemis, you'll now be cross-examined by
19 Mr. McCloskey. Mr. McCloskey is counsel for the Prosecution.
20 You may proceed.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
22 Cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey:
23 Q. Mr. Pelemis, do you acknowledge that Drazen Erdemovic and members
24 of your unit summarily executed hundreds of Muslim men at the Branjevo
25 Farm in July of 1995?
1 A. Yes, after these confessions in Sarajevo, yes, they were
2 definitely involved in it.
3 Q. So you acknowledge that when Mr. Erdemovic pled guilty to his
4 involvement publicly in January of 1996 of executing hundreds of men with
5 your unit, that was a true plea, in that he -- excuse me, let me start
6 over with that.
7 When Erdemovic admitted in his guilty plea that he killed many
8 hundreds of people, that was true, wasn't it?
9 A. At that time, I didn't believe it, in 1996.
10 Q. It was true, wasn't it?
11 A. Now it's true, but the number of victims is a bit too much. In
12 Sarajevo it has already been proved that it was no more than 200, but
13 it's true that six men from my unit were involved.
14 Q. You're wrong, sir. It's been proven in this court that it's been
15 well over 8-, 900 people by DNA ID from the mass grave and the secondary
16 mass graves. You're not aware of the evidence in this court, I take it?
17 A. No, I'm not. I don't know exactly. I wasn't really so
18 interested as to try to find out whether these -- I mean, what I really
19 wanted to know, whether these six men were involved.
20 Q. Well, you know Erdemovic testified that you issued the orders for
21 them to go kill people so -- and you weren't interested?
22 A. I never issued that order to Erdemovic.
23 Q. Well, you must have known he blamed it on you when he pled guilty
24 in 1996 and he testified at a Rule 61 hearing and laid it out in February
25 of 1996. It's in this case at P1673.
1 So tell us again, you weren't concerned?
2 A. First of all, I was not involved, and nobody from the structure
3 of the 10th Sabotage Detachment was involved in the selection of men and
4 their sending to that mission. What I know from Erdemovic's statement is
5 that on the 16th, two officers from the Main Staff came to collect
6 them --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you're not invited to tell us what you're
8 telling us now. The question was whether you really were not concerned
9 about what Mr. Erdemovic said about you.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Why would I be concerned when
11 I was not present? Definitely, on the 16th, I was not in Dragasevac.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you can be concerned if someone accuses you,
13 even if it's a false accusation in your view, then people would usually
14 be concerned about such accusations. That is, I think, what
15 Mr. McCloskey is putting to you.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I came to testify here to
17 remove that blemish from my name. I told you that Erdemovic when he was
18 going to Serbia said that he would take revenge on me because I had taken
19 his house and his car. And now in his statement he says also that only
20 upon arriving at Branjevo he found out that they would be required to
21 execute people.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I --
23 JUDGE ORIE: May I remind you on one thing, that you came here to
24 testify to tell us what you know, not to remove any blame from yourself.
25 You just answer the questions. And I urge the parties to ask about the
1 facts. That's what you're here for.
2 Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: I have a clarification to make.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sir, you just told us you came here to remove the
6 blame that he puts on you. That means, in fact, you are concerned even
7 up to now about what Erdemovic said about you - is that correct? - that's
8 why you're coming to clear your name?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY:
13 Q. Erdemovic made these allegations some -- over 18 years ago. This
14 is the first time you have come out in any courtroom and said anything
15 about this, isn't it?
16 A. That's right.
17 Q. You didn't give any statement to any police force about this, did
19 A. No, I didn't. I only gave a statement three years ago at the
20 request of the Office of the Prosecutor in Sarajevo, and to them I made a
21 statement about this event. That's all I have done from 1996 to date.
22 Q. So years and years and trials and trials went on and on and
23 Erdemovic testified in each one of them and said the same thing, and you
24 didn't do anything until a few years ago?
25 A. What could I have done? I don't understand.
1 Q. Erdemovic gave a statement to the investigating judge in Belgrade
2 in 1996, and he shortly after came here and pled guilty. Did you go to
3 an investigating judge or did you go to the police in Belgrade and give a
5 A. No. I only asked the authorities if I should give a statement.
6 They told me no because I had produced documents from the hospital that I
7 was absent in that period. And from talking with other members of the
8 detachment, I know that nobody had made allegations, nobody claimed that
9 I was in Dragasevac on that day or that I had sent my men to Branjevo.
10 Q. So you just testified that you were so concerned about the
11 allegation he made to you on -- about you on the 11th of July that you
12 had ordered the cutting of someone's throat that you had some kind of an
13 internal -- you called it an investigation amongst yourselves. So did
14 you have an investigation amongst yourself about the allegation he made
15 on 11 July that you had a Muslim's throat cut?
16 A. Well, I wanted to get a statement from all of them, from those
17 six or seven who were at Branjevo, all of them refused.
18 I'm trying to tell you that concerning the 11th, I am concerned.
19 I want to tell you how badly Drazen Erdemovic was lying to you about
20 that. He was many kilometres away from that place. I know that because
21 there was a celebration going on at the time of the incident.
22 Q. Well, sir, as I mentioned, over 18 years ago he told that account
23 of what happened in the centre of Srebrenica on 11 July, describing a
24 person having their throat cut on your orders in the centre of town. And
25 then many years after that, after many testimonies, we got a videotape,
1 and there in the centre of town was a man lying in the road -- I'll show
2 it to you. Let's take a look at it, P1147.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, it's -- I'm thinking it's probably
4 a good idea to give this man a 90(E) warning.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Pelemis, Mr. McCloskey invites me to give you a
6 Rule 90(E) warning. Rule 90(E) says that if a truthful answer to any
7 question that is put to you would tend to incriminate yourself, that
8 you're relieved from -- you can address me and then ask to be relieved
9 from the obligation to answer that question. We then, however, can
10 compel you to answer the question but your testimony cannot be used
11 against you, apart from any prosecution for perjury.
12 So, therefore, if you feel that a truthful answer might
13 incriminate yourself, you may address me. If that's clear to you,
14 carefully listen to the next question put to you by Mr. McCloskey.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY:
16 Q. We're going to show you a video-clip that was from 12 July from
17 the centre of town, and it starts at 00.16.7.
18 [Video-clip played]
19 MR. McCLOSKEY:
20 Q. So how was it, Mr. Pelemis, that many years after Erdemovic tells
21 us someone has their throat cut on your orders that we find this man the
22 day after where he said it happened with a fluid obviously coming down
23 the road from his upper body? Did Erdemovic just get lucky with that?
24 What's your explanation?
25 A. I have said before that there were at least six such corpses
1 lying around town as we were passing through. This man, as far as I can
2 see, has a gun-shot wound in his back.
3 Q. You see a gun-shot wound in his leg in this photo?
4 JUDGE ORIE: Could we have a still so that the witness can
5 explain --
6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: He said "back," in
7 his back.
8 JUDGE ORIE: A gun-shot wound in his back. Could we scroll it
10 Could you tell us, Witness, where you can see that there is a
11 gun-shot wound in the back of this person?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Exactly in the middle of his back,
13 as far as I'm able to see.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY:
15 Q. You've got some amazing vision --
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I might just ask a question.
17 Would a gun-shot wound cause him to bleed like that?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It may and doesn't have to.
19 Depends on whether it cut through the artery and the man was bleeding
20 out. I can't tell exactly.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: It doesn't look like the blood comes from the
22 back. The jacket is clean at the back. It seems to come from underneath
23 his neck.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what the injuries on
25 the front of his body are, whether it was from a shell, whether the chest
1 was hit, I can't see.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
3 Mr. McCloskey.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY:
5 Q. Witness, the evidence in this case from Mr. Erdemovic is, is that
6 you told the troops before going into town not to hurt any civilians, and
7 then when you came here in this area and this man came out looking for
8 help, you had his throat cut by Zoran. Why on earth was -- did he need
9 to die? Why did you order him to do that?
10 A. I could not have ordered Zoran because Zoran was not there. And
11 second, I never ordered anyone to do this. How do we then explain the
12 150 civilians and wounded walking behind me who did not miss a hair on
13 their head? Why would I be concerned in a different way about this man?
14 I repeat to you, there were five or six corpses that we saw while taking
15 the town --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic --
17 MR. LUKIC: If we can get the reference, Zoran who?
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey.
19 MR. LUKIC: What did Mr. Erdemovic say, Zoran who?
20 JUDGE ORIE: Well, let's just -- yes.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm not here to answer his questions.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, the question is whether you are
23 willing to clarify who in your question you refer to when you referred to
24 an order to Zoran. If you're willing to do that, then we'd like to hear
25 from you.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Of course, Mr. President.
2 Q. You know the Zoran with a nickname Maric?
3 A. I don't know Maric.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think it's a good time to take a break,
5 Mr. President.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we'll adjourn for the day, as a matter of fact,
7 not only for the day but even for the weekend.
8 Mr. Pelemis, we adjourn for the day. We will resume on the 30th,
9 that's after the weekend on Monday, the 30th of March. We'd like to see
10 you back at 9.30 in the morning, but before you leave this courtroom, I
11 instruct you that you should not speak or communicate with whomever about
12 your testimony, whether that is testimony you've given today or whether
13 that is testimony still to be given next week.
14 If that's --
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.
16 JUDGE ORIE: -- clear to you, you may follow the usher.
17 [The witness stands down]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
19 MR. LUKIC: I was waiting until this witness leaves the
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 MR. LUKIC: I would kindly ask my learned friend, Mr. McCloskey,
23 to give us the reference, because I couldn't find it, where Erdemovic
24 said that killings had Branjevo Farm were ordered by Pelemis. Just a
25 reference --
1 JUDGE ORIE: It was about -- oh, perhaps yes. I leave it --
2 could you exchange this information which at this moment -- it may be
3 important for the preparation of your cross-examination -- for -- of your
4 re-examination, Mr. Lukic.
5 And, therefore, Mr. McCloskey, I take it that you are willing to
6 provide any reference Mr. Lukic is asking for?
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Certainly, no problem.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Then that will be done. It doesn't have to be done
9 in open court.
10 We adjourn for the day, and we'll resume on Monday, the 30th of
11 March, 9.30 in the morning in this same courtroom, I.
12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.16 p.m.,
13 to be reconvened on Monday, the 30th day of
14 March, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.