1 Wednesday, 29 April 2015
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
9 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 The Chamber was informed that both parties had a preliminary
12 matter to be raised.
13 Mr. Tieger.
14 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President.
15 I have two matters, both of which are connected to translation
16 issues that arose yesterday. The first is related to P466, former
17 65 ter 05980. The issue arose in the first paragraph. The reference to
18 the 6th Infantry Brigade has been corrected, as we discussed yesterday,
19 to the 6th Infantry Battalion.
20 The revised translation has been uploaded into e-court under
21 document ID 0427-6215-0ET. And as usual if there is no objection, we
22 would ask that the Court Officer be instructed to replace the existing
23 translation with the revised version.
24 The second issue relates, Mr. President, to document P190,
25 65 ter 02907, and that was the issue that arose in connection with the
1 translation in the first paragraph for the word "organizovati."
2 Now as it turns out, our inquiry with the translation service
3 revealed that that word under its dictionary usage supports such terms as
4 "start," or "launch."
5 On the other hand, the specific term used in the translation,
6 "set up," is not one of those terms listed, and in that connection I
7 would note that the word "establish" appeared in the translation provided
8 by the Karadzic Defence in the statement. So it's a reflection of how
9 the term "organizovati" supports that kind of term but not technically.
10 So the translation service's solution was to suggest the
11 substitution of the word "organise," which is a much more literal and
12 direct translation, I understand, of the B/C/S word. While that -- while
13 it may contain the same ambiguity I just mentioned and that exists in the
14 word "organise" in the English as well, at least it doesn't have the
15 purported resolution of that ambiguity by the substitution of the term
16 "establish," which is only susceptible of one meaning. So that's the
17 solution to that interpretation or translation issue as suggested by the
18 translation service.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not quite understanding. Are the translation
20 services suggesting that we change the word "organise" or we change the
21 word "establish"?
22 MR. TIEGER: The term in B/C/S was "organizovati."
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Organise, yes.
24 MR. TIEGER: And --
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which we can't change?
1 MR. TIEGER: No. That stays, of course. And so that's the term
2 used in the statement signed off on by the witness. It's also the term
3 used in P190. And it was interpreted in the statement as "established,"
4 interpreted in P190 as "set up." As I indicated, while the B/C/S word
5 supports words such as "start" or "launch" which are basically synonyms
6 in that context, they consider -- it doesn't support the word or it's not
7 the word "establish" is not technically listed, so they considered that
8 the best solution would be to provide a much more direct use of that
9 word. So they use the word "organise" as the interpretation of
10 "organizovati," and that's what we've provided in the revised document.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: And they're suggesting that we substitute
12 "establish" or "set up" with "start" or "launch"?
13 MR. TIEGER: No, they did not suggest that. They considered that
14 if they simply I -- I agree that could have been an expedient, but I'm
15 just relating what they provided and that was to use the word "organise."
16 I would only say that --
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: "Organise."
18 MR. TIEGER: -- in the English use of "organise," that is also
19 susceptible of the meaning "start" or "launch" and carry through with the
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. This is just "organise." Thank you so
23 MR. TIEGER: Yes. So that appears in -- under doc ID
24 0427-6217-0ET. And when --
25 JUDGE ORIE: It has been uploaded with the translation
1 "organise" --
2 MR. TIEGER: Yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: -- in that doc ID.
4 MR. TIEGER: And because I have hard copies of the old version,
5 I'll do my best, if I'm referring to either the statement or P190, to
6 remind myself that we've made that substitution.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Any comment Mr. Stojanovic, Mr. Lukic?
8 MR. LUKIC: Yes, maybe I should do it, comment on this. We would
9 agree that it's the same word, "organise," "organizovati," so there is no
10 need for any elaborate translation. We agree that "organise" should be
11 used as a translation for "organizovati."
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But then it should be uploaded with that
13 word --
14 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: -- in its translation.
16 MR. LUKIC: So we don't have any objections to that.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes. Therefore, Madam Registrar, you're hereby
20 instructed to replace the translation of -- into the English language of
21 P466 by the newly uploaded ID 0427-6215-0ET, and you're similarly
22 instructed to replace the existing translation of P190 by the newly
23 uploaded document ID 0427-6217-0ET.
24 For the Defence, I do understand that there may be a scheduling
25 issue, scheduling matter, but you'd like not to raise it now or would you
1 like to do it?
2 MR. LUKIC: I think it's better -- I forgot good morning, Your
3 Honours, the first time -- in the first place.
4 Yeah, maybe it would be better to postpone that address until the
5 end of the day since we would have more concrete answers from the
6 Prosecution at that time.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll wait for that.
8 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted in the courtroom.
10 [The witness takes the stand]
11 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Andric.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, I'd like to remind that you
14 you're still bound by the solemn declaration that you have given at the
15 beginning of your testimony, that you'll speak the truth, the whole
16 truth, and nothing but the truth.
17 Mr. Tieger will now continue his cross-examination.
18 Mr. Tieger.
19 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President.
20 WITNESS: SVETOZAR ANDRIC [Resumed]
21 [Witness answered through interpreter]
22 Cross-examination by Mr. Tieger: [Continued]
23 Q. Good morning, General.
24 A. Good morning.
25 Q. Yesterday we ended the day discussing an aspect of the document
2 MR. TIEGER: If we could call it up.
3 Q. That's your order of the 31st of May, 1992. Which, among other
4 things, orders in item 1:
5 "Organise a camp in Vlasenica and provide security for it in the
6 spirit of international rules."
7 Now, yesterday there was a discussion, General, about the
8 difference between "establishing" and "organising," a point you took
9 pains to draw to our attention, and indeed you made that same claim to
10 the Belgrade Court when you testified in the Grujic and Pavlovic case in
11 2007; correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Now, I understand that to mean or to be an assertion that
14 essentially the Susica camp that existed in June and July and August and
15 September of 1992 was the -- the same -- existed in that way in May of
16 1992 before you issued this order. That's essentially your claim, sir,
17 that you were dealing with the same facility and you simply made an order
18 regarding limited aspects of that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. Now, in order -- in -- in your effort to corroborate your
21 claim that the camp as it later existed -- pre-existed or pre-dated your
22 May 31st order, you told the Belgrade Court that The Hague Tribunal held
23 a trial regarding this camp where the camp commander was convicted where
24 witness statements show that this camp was established before the
25 establishment of the brigade.
1 So that was your claim to the Belgrade Court, correct, General,
2 that The Hague Tribunal in the case of the camp commander, actually, the
3 commander of the guards, Nikolic, had established that the Susica camp
4 pre-existed your order? That was your claim; right?
5 A. That was a collection centre and at the same time it was a camp
6 from the moment when on the 21st Vlasenica was liberated and when on the
7 19th an order was issued for disarmament and --
8 Q. Excuse me, sir, but my question was not about your position on
9 the circumstances pre-dating your order but more directly about whether
10 or not you told the Belgrade Court that The Hague Tribunal had
11 established the proposition you were advancing; that is, that the Susica
12 camp pre-existed the order of late -- your order of late May 1992.
13 A. Well, I don't remember, but I accept that.
14 Q. Okay. Well, I can -- let me quote you directly and see if you
15 accept it, otherwise I'll put it on the screen.
16 The quote is and appears in 65 ter 32499 at pages 60 to 61 of the
17 English transcript and 33 of the Serbian:
18 "Yes, yes, but I am telling you the operations officer made an
19 error. It is a camp. It can be -- after all, The Hague Tribunal held a
20 trial regarding this camp in Vlasenica where the camp commander was
21 convicted, where witness statements show that this camp was established
22 before the establishment of the brigade."
23 Do you accept that -- that was your position to the Belgrade
24 Court, sir?
25 A. Yes. On the basis of the statement made by Nikolic --
1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We can no longer hear the
2 speaker. Could other microphones please be switched off. Thank you.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Could the microphone be adjusted. Could the usher
5 I don't know whether part of the answer was lost on not. I leave
6 it in your hands, Mr. Tieger.
7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Yes.
8 MR. TIEGER: Yes. I think that's sufficient as it appears there,
9 Mr. President.
10 Q. In fact --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Let's -- the interpreters then confirmed that part
12 of the answer was lost.
13 Could you please repeat your answer. You said: "Yes, on the
14 basis of the statement made by Nikolic," and what did you then say?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nikolic, Dragan who was convicted
16 as camp commander.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
18 Just to be sure, you say that's the -- what the statement of
19 Nikolic revealed?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Which is not necessarily the same as what was
22 established by the court.
23 Mr. Tieger, I leave it to you to further explore the matter if
24 there's any need to do so.
25 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President.
1 Q. The fact is, General, the contrary is the case, that -- and
2 here's the exchange that took place between Judge Schomburg and the
3 accused Nikolic. This appears at 65 ter 32508, page 180 from the hearing
4 of September 4th, 2003.
5 "The Serb forces initially" -- this is Judge Schomburg speaking.
6 "The Serb forces initially held the arrested Muslims and other
7 non-Serbs either at a local school or the local prison in Vlasenica. In
8 approximately late May or early June 1992, the Serb forces established a
9 detention camp at Susica, the main detention facility in the Vlasenica
10 area, and sent the arrested Muslims and non-Serbs there. Susica camp was
11 run by the military and the local police militia. The camp guards were
12 generally soldiers from the local area."
13 And the accused responded:
14 "Correct, Your Honour."
15 The judge also said:
16 "Susica camp was located approximately 1 kilometre from the town
17 of Vlasenica, in a military facility that had previously been used for
18 storage of military equipment. Men, women, and children were kept in the
19 camp; however, the women and children generally stayed for only short
20 periods of time before being forcibly transferred to nearby Muslim
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tieger, for clarity, all the quotations from
23 a certain document read into the transcript by Judge Schomburg; is that
25 MR. TIEGER: That's my understanding and then confirmed this --
1 that proposition -- both of those propositions, and if I continue then
2 Nikolic also confirmed that, saying:
3 "Correct, Your Honour."
4 Both propositions were confirmed by the accused.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But can you help us to understand from which
6 document Judge Schomburg was reading and quoting? Was it the plea
8 MR. TIEGER: It's my understanding, Mr. President, but I can
9 double-check on that.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
11 MR. TIEGER: I think I indicated earlier that the --
12 Judge Schomburg read out the text of the plea, so that is my
13 understanding, but I can certainly have that confirmed.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
15 MR. TIEGER:
16 Q. So, General, contrary to your assertion that -- to the Belgrade
17 Court, and here again, that the commander of the guards at Susica
18 confirmed your proposition that it was a camp before, we can see that
19 just the opposite is true, that Nikolic confirmed that the camp was
20 established in late May or early June, that is consistent with the timing
21 of your order, and that previously it had been used for storage of
22 military equipment; correct?
23 A. Well, let me tell you, you've been asked me about the camp all
24 the time, and I have been trying to explain to you that the army had
25 nothing whatsoever to do with the camp. And all the time -- well, it was
1 the Crisis Staff that governed the crisis --
2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please
3 be asked to stop and start again. It is very hard to follow. Thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you're speaking too quickly. Therefore,
5 you're invited to start --
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can repeat.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, all the time, there's
9 an attempt to move my order through the camp. However, the Susica camp
10 was not under the army. On my order, the army only secured the camp by
11 way of the guards service.
12 As for the running of the camp itself, that was under the
13 Crisis Staff, the Ministry of Interior; specifically, the centre of
14 public security from Vlasenica. The commander of the camp is a policeman
15 from the police station. His deputy is from the police station. The
16 commander of the camp who was appointed by -- by the commander of the
17 special unit was Mr. Nikolic.
18 So the army is nowhere there. I ordered the battalion commander
19 to secure the camp, but the camp, the facilities where they are put up,
20 the materiel, the personnel, the POWs, according to information received.
21 So please let us make a distinction there. So the army had absolutely
22 nothing to do with the camp.
23 JUDGE ORIE: But -- apart from guarding the camp?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Apart from guarding the camp. It
25 was only guarding the camp. Through my order, I ordered that an
1 assessment be made, that a paper be drawn up, and that security be
2 established. In that paper and in that order, there is no mention of
3 Dragan Nikolic, there is no mention of Basic, who was allegedly the
4 warden, then Risto Vidovic is not there either. So the army did not
5 appoint them. And I don't know why all this time this is being imputed
6 to me, this order, the camp --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, don't worry about why parties are putting
8 questions to you. Mr. Tieger will now put his next question to you.
9 MR. TIEGER:
10 Q. General, you have claimed a couple of times the army had
11 absolutely nothing to do with the camp apart from guarding the camp, is
12 what you've said. So let's set aside guarding the camp, for a moment, as
13 part of your organisation of the Susica camp. The army also ordered
14 operative interviews of the prisoners; correct?
15 A. Yes, I personally ordered that. That is to say, that the
16 security organ from the battalion, the 4th Battalion, should conduct
17 interviews, operative interviews, and that indispensable information
18 should be provided to the chief of the security services in the command.
19 However every military conscript or, rather, every POW that the gentlemen
20 interviewed, the gentleman from the battalion, he returned every such
21 person as well.
22 Q. That actually anticipated my next question. Your chief of
23 security and related officials also took people out of the camp for
24 interviews. That's correct, too?
25 A. Yes, that is correct. But you know on whose orders? Do you?
1 Who could have ordered that, to have prisoners taken out? Did anybody
2 ask the commander of the brigade or the commander of the battalion? No.
3 The chief of the public security centre was the one who had the power to
4 allow that, namely, to have prisoners of war taken out.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did he allow that or did he order that? You said
6 on whose orders, now you say "allowed." Did he allow it or did he order
7 it, the chief of the SJB?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The chief had the right on the
9 basis of the statements made by the mentioned Mr. Nikolic. I hadn't
10 studied this. And I quote, he said: "The army was there just on paper
11 and they had no say. All decisions were made by the Crisis Staff and the
12 public security station and the security -- and the special police." So
13 the army did not have any powers whatsoever except for guard services.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: And what are you quoting from Drago Nikolic? Is
15 that his testimony or is that his statement or is it something he told
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, he didn't say that to me. I
18 read that in his statement.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: What was the purpose of the statement?
20 I heard translation that I don't understand.
21 JUDGE ORIE: It seems that we're receiving B/C/S on the English
5 JUDGE ORIE: In general terms, would you tell us what you
6 personally observed and what you -- and not recount what you read in
7 statements of other persons? To the extent these statements are in
8 evidence, we will evaluate them, but we are expecting you to tell us what
9 you know from your personal experience, your personal observation.
10 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
11 MR. TIEGER: And in light of that response, Mr. President, I'm
12 going to tender 65 ter 32508 which is the relevant portion of the
13 sentencing hearing that I read out before.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document receives number P7356.
16 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could we briefly turn into private session.
18 [Private session]
11 Pages 34820-34821 redacted. Private session.
19 [Open session]
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE ORIE: And I think we still --
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
24 I think we still have to decide on the admission of P7356, which
25 is admitted.
1 MR. TIEGER:
2 Q. General, I want to take a look at how the, quote/unquote,
3 organisation of the camp in Susica went after your order.
4 First of all, within a matter of weeks, there were many hundreds
5 of Muslim prisoners held in Susica. That's correct, isn't it?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And those included not only men but women and sometimes children;
9 A. Yes. The women and the children were not imprisoned.
10 Q. Well, they were brought to the camp and during their stay in the
11 camp, they were not free to leave. They were held in the camp for that
12 period. That's right, isn't it?
13 A. Mr. Prosecutor, in the beginning, we said that the Susica
14 facility was an asylum, a temporary kind of asylum not only for Muslims
15 but also for Serbs, so along with prisoners there were civilians there
16 too. Specifically in Vlasenica on the 21st, what happened was that
17 people were going there to spend the night with their family, and then in
18 the morning the authorities would organise it for them so they could go
19 to Kladanj or wherever else they wanted to. That's the truth. Why would
20 anyone want to capture women and children? And for them, it was a place
21 of safety. They asked to go there because that's where they were safe.
22 It was for their own safety.
23 Q. General, these people, the men and the women, were considered
24 prisoners; correct? And they were referred to as such by the Bosnian
25 Serb military authorities. That's the truth, isn't it?
1 A. No. No. They were not prisoners. If you take my report to the
2 East Bosnia Corps command where I am asking that the prisoners of war are
3 urgently relocated - urgently - and that the brigade command was not
4 responsible for organising the camp that was at the level of the corps
5 command, the order of the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska to
6 the East Bosnia Corps, when they looked at the situation in the brigade,
7 also instructed the command of the East Bosnia Corps to urgently organise
8 the camp. After those orders, in late June, 400 --
9 Q. General, please stop. Let's take this sequentially, please. I
10 asked you whether they were referred to as such - that is, prisoners - by
11 the Bosnian Serb military authorities. You said no. Then you began a
12 lengthy explanation of what you considered to be relevant orders relating
13 to Susica.
14 MR. TIEGER: Let me look -- let me call up P353, page 232 in the
15 English and 230 in the Serbian.
16 Q. Okay. This is a meeting, and we can go back, dated -- we don't
17 have to move. Dated the 25th of June, 1992, reflected in General Mladic
18 's notebook. It's a meeting in Vlasenica, as we can see, at 1630. And
19 there the president of the municipality, Milenko Stanic, states:
20 "Over 800 prisoners," prisoners, "200 of whom are women and
21 children who were brought last night, pose a problem."
22 Now that's a reflection, General, of the understanding that the
23 people who were brought into these detention facilities were, in fact,
24 being detained, irrespective of whether they were ultimately going to be
25 sent to Kladanj or held for further operative interviews, sent to
1 Batkovic, or indeed suffer an even worse fate.
2 A. No. Those civilians, complete families, would come, and you can
3 imagine, the Serbs went to visit them as well and brought them gifts.
4 Had this been a classic prison or a camp, according to the rules nobody
5 would be able to approach it. However, their Serb neighbours were
6 bringing them food. And as soon as the municipality provided transport
7 and buses, those civilians went to Kladanj, Zivinice, Cerska, or wherever
8 they said they wanted to go. I mean, it's a burden for the municipality
9 to hold so many people without proper conditions and insufficient food,
10 so who would do this reasonably in such conditions?
11 Q. Well, General, I'm going to ask you about what -- some of what
12 you now appear to tell us you knew about the operative details of what
13 was happening in Susica camp. So let's turn to P193, which is a report
14 by the then-commander of the Vlasenica Battalion, Major Slobodan Pajic,
15 who later became your assistant commander for logistics.
16 Now this is a report, as you can see, an assessment of the danger
17 to buildings in Susica from attacks on them and to the units from attack
18 from them. And it's dated at the front June of 1992 and signed and
19 stamped by Pajic on the second page, indicating that work must be
20 completed by the 17th of June. So that's -- 1992. So that's the
22 And if we can turn to page 4 of the English, and I believe the
23 same page in the Serbian, Pajic provides the following:
24 "In order to prevent informing the public about the prisoners'
25 appearance and the conditions they live in, any attempts to take
1 recording devices and explosives inside or conduct interviews must be
2 prevented, extensive movement must be prohibited, and so on. Visits of
3 any type must be prohibited, particularly bringing food and other
4 material to the prisoners."
5 General, contrary to the assertions you just made regarding the
6 benign and almost philanthropic attitude toward the prisoners at Susica,
7 your subordinates were aware of the conditions, sought to ensure they
8 would not be revealed to the public or media, and, indeed, sought to
9 prevent food from being brought to these prisoners. That's the truth,
10 isn't it?
11 A. I don't know if you read who it was there. This is a proposal
12 for the report of the members of the commission and the report was
13 drafted on the basis of my order. The order then goes to the commander.
14 And then the commander ultimately wrote the order on the basis of the
15 report. So this is a commission putting forward a proposal. And then
16 later you can see what the commander decided.
17 So this is a proposal for security that was to be provided, and
18 there is no question about managing the camp or the camp premises. Only
19 security. There is no warden there or any camp staff. It's only the
20 security there. You have three guards' posts and four guards who are
21 securing the warehouse in view of the fact that the camp is at the
22 warehouse -- in the warehouse.
23 I am telling you what I heard, that people would come and they
24 would bring -- I mean, there are statements by witnesses also. Simply
25 speaking, these were neighbours who would then come and bring the food
1 early in the morning, and then once the transport was arranged, they
2 would leave.
3 I don't know what you're asking from me. I mean, you're looking
4 at me so you can tell me what you are asking me.
5 Q. General, based on what you've just told us, it appears that you
6 were very much aware of the conditions in the camp that your subordinates
7 were guarding, and so you must have been aware that the condition of
8 these -- the condition in which these prisoners lived and the treatment
9 they received was horrific; correct?
10 A. Well, let me tell you, the whole time you're referring to the
11 order, and you're trying to do something that has nothing to do with
12 anything, I never entered the camp, once. My area of responsibility
13 stretched to 150 kilometres. I never entered the camp except after the
14 war when I was the commander of the 5th Corps. Therefore, my information
15 about the camp is minimal. I had an assistant. I had a commander for
16 morale and religious affairs who, on the 3rd of July, became a member of
17 the Commission for the Exchange of Prisoners of War. Therefore, my
18 information in the course of the war was very superficial. It was very,
19 very slight.
20 Q. General, you just told us in respect of the Pajic assessment that
21 you commissioned that. He says in there, "Let's not anybody know about
22 the condition of the prisoners." So I'm asking you now whether you claim
23 that you did not know what the condition of the prisoners was at that
25 A. You didn't read the document to the end. First of all, this is
1 something that the commission proposed. Pajic didn't say that. Thirdly,
2 the proposal was not handed to the brigade commander. Sir, you can see
3 to whom the draft was provided to, to the guards duty and the battalion,
4 not to the commander of the brigade. You really need to read it to the
5 end. I apologise.
6 Q. General, let's -- let's be direct. Number one: Do you deny or
7 confirm or say you don't know that conditions in the Susica camp - lack
8 of food, abysmal hygiene, beatings, rapes, killings - was -- prevailed in
9 Susica in -- after the time of -- of your May 31st order?
10 A. I don't know. I think this is becoming ridiculous. Throughout
11 the whole time --
12 Q. General, sorry, sir --
13 A. -- you're talking about my order, but I'm telling you as far as
14 the camp -- the whole time, you're talking about my order. I don't know
15 what you're objective is. We're just wasting time.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Witness, it's not for you to decide whether
17 we are wasting time or not.
18 Second, you're invited to listen carefully to what Mr. Tieger put
19 to you. The only thing he did, he referred to the time after your order.
20 That is, time. That is, after the 31st of May. There was no other
21 direct link suggested at this moment by Mr. Tieger.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if you please, I'm
23 telling you the whole time that the army didn't have any authority or
24 responsibility for the camp, so why --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you there.
1 The question was whether you deny or confirm or say you don't
2 know that the conditions in Susica camp - and Mr. Tieger mentioned a few,
3 one of them lack of food - whether you deny or confirm that that was the
4 prevailing situation in Susica camp.
5 Do you deny? Do you confirm? Or don't you know?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my information is
7 that the municipality and the town of Vlasenica were in danger in view of
8 a large number of prisoners and --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, that's --
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- people who had moved out. I
11 will give you an answer immediately.
12 JUDGE ORIE: No, you should start giving me an answer. And if we
13 need further explanations, we'll ask for it.
14 Do you deny or do you confirm or do you not know that the
15 conditions in Susica camp were as they were portrayed by Mr. Tieger?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't know. All I know is that
17 there were too many and that I sent a request to the East Bosnia Corps
18 command that had to do with the situation in Vlasenica to relocate the
19 prisoners of war to the Batkovic camp as soon as possible. So at the
20 briefing I was told that there was a large number of these people, and
21 the municipality simply could not support accommodation and food for
22 them. And so on the basis of that, a request was drafted to the superior
24 JUDGE ORIE: I think you earlier told us that there was not
25 sufficient food.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, you didn't understand me, that
2 I didn't have sufficient conditions for such a large number of refugees;
3 3.000 to 4.000 refugees in Vlasenica. Then prisoners of war. The
4 pressure was great. And so they were asking me along the chain of
5 command to unburden the Vlasenica municipality and to relocate the
6 prisoners of war, and this is what I did. Even the General Staff ordered
7 this to the Eastern Bosnia Corps to organise the camp.
8 JUDGE ORIE: For one reason or another, you're not answering my
9 question. My question simply was whether you told us a minute ago that
10 food was not sufficient and that it was a burden.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's possible that I did say that,
12 but I meant the entire municipality. I didn't mean the prisoners of war.
13 I meant the entire municipality. Because the 4.000 refugees were a
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me then read to you what you said. You
17 "I mean, it's a burden for the municipality to hold so many
18 people without proper conditions and insufficient food," which seems to
19 confirm that the conditions were not proper and that there was
20 insufficient food.
21 And that was what Mr. Tieger asked you, whether you can confirm
22 that or not. But you told us already --
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There wasn't enough food. Not only
24 for the prisoners of war. I just want to broaden that. It affected the
25 entire population because 4.000 refugees arrived in the meantime, so the
1 president of the municipality was asking me to relocate them because they
2 just could not cope with so many.
3 JUDGE ORIE: So you were aware that there was not sufficient food
4 in Susica camp. There may have not been sufficient food for others as
5 well, but you were aware of that.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't know about Susica, no.
7 Generally there was a shortage of food. Generally. But he asked that we
8 relocate the prisoners of war.
9 JUDGE ORIE: You said: "There wasn't enough food," and you said
10 this two minutes ago, "not only for the prisoners of war," and you wanted
11 to broaden that.
12 That means that you were aware that there was not sufficient food
13 for the prisoners of war and, as you broadened the matter, also not for
14 others. So you were aware of the insufficiency of food available at
15 Susica camp. That's what you told us a second ago.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps I did say it, but I was not
17 in a position to know, because I was never in the camp, I wasn't
18 receiving the information, so -- well, here, I accept that I said that.
19 I never received information about the camp, though.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I say "please proceed," but I shouldn't have
23 said that in view of the clock.
24 Mr. Andric, we'll take a break of 20 minutes. We'd like to see
25 you back at ten minutes to 11.00.
1 [The witness stands down]
2 JUDGE ORIE: We'll resume at ten minutes to 11.00.
3 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.
4 --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.
5 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
6 [The witness takes the stand]
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE ORIE: We'll continue, Mr. Andric. My I advise you that
9 you should always make clear what you know from your personal observation
10 and what you know by analysing statements of others, which you're not
11 invited to do. We're interested in what you know by your own
13 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
14 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President.
15 Q. Just a last question, General, about the Muslim prisoners in
17 These hundreds of prisoners who swelled the facility and whose
18 presence triggered the request for a corps-level facility like Batkovic,
19 these were all people who were captured by the army and police and then
20 held in Susica; right.
21 A. No.
22 Q. Did the army capture people, Muslims, who were then held as
23 prisoners in Susica?
24 A. You spoke in general terms, Mr. Prosecutor, because half an hour
25 ago you said that in Susica there were women and children. So the army
1 did not take women and children prisoner.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, that wasn't the question. You're
3 intelligent enough to understand the question. The question was whether
4 the army captured people, Muslims, who were then held in Susica. Men not
5 excluded in that question. So would you refrain from reminding
6 Mr. Tieger of what he asked and would you please answer the question.
7 Were there -- did the army capture people, Muslims, who were then
8 held as prisoners in Susica?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The army, the police, the
10 Territorial Defence, and all structures of the Army of Republika Srpska.
11 JUDGE ORIE: What about them? Did they capture people who were
12 then held as prisoners in Susica.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I've said to you that
14 able-bodied military-aged men who had committed a crime who had taken
15 part in armed conflicts or in some other way aided the Muslim side, they
16 were the ones who were taken to the camp. Now, all the others who did
17 not do that were released.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, first of all, even if you're released you
19 must have been captured before. That's one.
20 Second, the focus of the question was whether the military and
21 the police captured people who were then held as prisoners in Susica.
22 Did the military do that; and did the police do that?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: A simple "yes" three questions ago would have done.
25 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
1 MR. TIEGER:
2 Q. General, let's return more generally to the orders or decisions
3 to move out the Muslims. That is, your 26 May order, your -- the
4 28 May order, the Birac SAO government decision. Now, these orders to
5 move out the Muslims were expressions of the Bosnian Serb position that
6 there needed to be fewer Muslims in Birac in order to draw borders on the
7 ground; correct?
8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We could not understand
9 the witness.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please repeat your answer and come a bit
11 closer to the microphone, which perhaps could be adjusted as well.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was not the position.
13 MR. TIEGER:
14 Q. General, you knew who Rajko Dukic [Realtime transcript read in
15 error "Djukic"] was; correct?
16 A. I did.
17 Q. He was the president of the republic-level SDS Executive Board;
19 A. That I don't know. I just knew Rajko Dukic as the director of
21 Q. And did you also know that he was co-ordinator - that is, the
22 republic-level official - tasked with responsibility for SAO
24 A. No, I didn't know that.
25 MR. TIEGER: Let's take a quick look at P7081, and turn the page
1 to item 4, please, in both versions.
2 Q. This is the Executive Board recommending to the Main Board that
3 in view of the formation of the assembly and the ministerial council that
4 certain people should be responsible for "the accomplishment of
5 regionalisation on the ground," and Mr. Dukic proposed for Birac.
6 MR. TIEGER: And if we look at P7082.
7 Q. We see the decision appointing Mr. Dukic, the president of the as
8 the Executive Committee of the SDS BH, as the designated member
9 co-ordinator for the SAO whose responsibilities are to report matters,
10 become involved in the work of the Crisis Staff, carry out decisions of
11 the assembly, and so on.
12 So, General, you must have been aware that Mr. Dukic, a
13 significant republic-level SDS official, was active in activities with
14 the SAO Birac government with which you interacted?
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic.
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honours.
17 The witness had answered in response to the previous question;
18 namely, what he knew about the position of Rajko Dukic.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Objection denied.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first time I see this.
21 I didn't know. So a major, a brigade commander for seven municipalities,
22 a short period of time to get to know everybody, that's impossible. So I
23 know Mr. Dukic as an excellent businessman and the director of the Boksit
25 MR. TIEGER:
1 Q. Well, let's then look at what this -- what Mr. Dukic, the
2 co-ordinator, and --
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: My I interrupt you for just one moment,
4 Mr. Tieger. It's -- we always see in the transcript "Mr. Djukic" but I
5 think it's clear from the documents and from what are you saying it's
6 Mr. Dukic. Is that correct?
7 MR. TIEGER: That's my understanding, yes.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
9 MR. TIEGER:
10 Q. Well, let's take a look at what Mr. Dukic had to say about what
11 was happening in Birac and why.
12 MR. TIEGER: And if we could turn to P4581. That's a session of
13 the Assembly, the Republika Srpska Assembly or the Assembly for the
14 Serbian People of Bosnia-Herzegovina, in late July 1992. And if we could
15 turn to page 71 and then quickly to page 72 of the English, page 73 of
16 the B/C/S.
17 Can you turn the page in English, please.
18 Q. Mr. Dukic begins first:
19 "We are establishing the state."
20 He goes on to say:
21 "We are talking about borders," and then here's the quote:
22 "We say that borders are drawn in the field. The people draw the
23 borders. You must admit the state of facts."
24 He goes on to talk about how the world would react if they -- if
25 the Bosnian Serbs withdrew, and he says:
1 "So the option is to take at least as much as belongs to us, and
2 I will tell you that we have not even come close to that."
3 Now, he goes on, talking about Bijeljina a bit, expressing
4 concern about Muslim judges.
5 MR. TIEGER: Turn the page, please.
6 Q. And he says:
7 "So I'm asking you gentlemen why we expelled all Muslim judges
8 from Vlasenica, Bratunac, and Zvornik."
9 Then he goes on to talk about Birac.
10 "If we move further there is Birac which is 100 to 108 kilometres
11 away and has 120.000 Muslims, that is how many there were but I hope that
12 has at least been halved, and 90.000 Serbs."
13 Now, there, General, Mr. Dukic, the republic-level emissary to
14 the SAO Birac, is clearly expressing the view before the Bosnian Serb
15 Assembly that the reduction of the Muslim population is necessary,
16 desirable, and is, in fact, being effected; right?
17 A. I have no comment. This is the first time I see this and I do
18 not wish to comment upon it.
19 Q. You saw that he talked about borders being drawn in the field;
21 A. I see that here, but he's the one who should be asked.
22 Q. That's a reference to taking control of areas that might
23 otherwise be held by or allotted to the Muslims; correct? The taking
24 control on the ground.
25 A. I mean, I really don't know why you're asking me about that. I
1 don't know that at all. Not my document. I'm a soldier. I'm not a
2 politician. So there's no need for me to answer this.
3 Q. I'm asking you --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, whenever a question is put to you, don't
5 say that it shouldn't be asked. Just answer the question, if you can.
6 If you know, tell us; if you don't know, tell us as well. But no comment
7 on what questions should be put to you.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that there's no need for me
9 to answer.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you are under an obligation to answer a
11 question. Whether the answer is, I don't know, that's all fine, but to
12 say "I don't have to answer that question" is incorrect. You are under
13 an obligation to answer questions.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I repeat, I repeat: I don't know.
15 I don't know.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
17 MR. TIEGER:
18 Q. I presented you with what Mr. Dukic said before the entire
19 assembly and before the Bosnian Serb leadership because you yourself,
20 General, well understood that conquering non-Serb territory was exactly
21 what was required and expected. And that's the truth, isn't it?
22 A. No.
23 Q. All right.
24 MR. TIEGER: Can I have 65 ter 1D04790, please. That was -- that
25 became -- I had that exhibit number yesterday. D1036. And the
1 transcript for that, please.
2 Q. As we can see, General, this is a transcript of a video footage
3 of you. And in fact, it's included in your statement as an associated
5 MR. TIEGER: If we could turn to the next page, please.
6 Q. After receiving applause, you state your favourite applause will
7 be when the Serbian Bosnia is free, and:
8 "... it will be when we are all equally involved in that
9 struggle, the Serbian history will show, but I can tell you that never in
10 the Serbian history we had such a chance to win. This brigade holds 70
11 per cent of the territory of SAO Birac compared to the 30 per cent that
12 the enemy holds. According to that, just a little of effort is needed to
13 retain those areas and to conquer more, then President Karadzic can go
14 peacefully to the conference."
15 A. Mr. President, I would kindly ask to you have the entire text
16 read out because this is just a portion.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, again, you are not telling any of the
18 parties what they should read to you, yes or no. If there's any need to
19 pay attention to other parts, then in re-examination the Defence will ask
20 further questions and will consider other parts of this.
21 Again - and this is the last time I'm warning - you should not
22 tell the parties what they should ask you and what they should not ask
23 you. If there's anything at this moment to intervene, Mr. Stojanovic
24 will do that.
25 Please proceed.
1 MR. TIEGER:
2 Q. By the time of this speech, General, Bosnian Serb forces had
3 already taken such places as Seher, as we saw yesterday, Memici. That's
4 correct, right? That's part of the 70 per cent you were talking about
6 A. But I kindly ask now do allow me to explain. What you're doing
7 has nothing to do with any of this. Now you mention Seher and we are in
8 Milici. I mean --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Witness, haven't I been clear enough to
10 you? You're not in a discussion with Mr. Tieger. You're here to answer
11 his questions. You're under an obligation to answer questions. If you
12 don't, if you contumaciously refuse to answer questions or are not
13 answering them, then you expose yourself to contempt of the court
14 proceedings which can result in penalties.
15 I again and now for the last time are telling you that you should
16 not tell Mr. Tieger what he should ask. You just have to answer his
17 questions. And again, you're undermining your own testimony if you
18 continue to do this, and that is certainly not why the Defence had called
19 you as a witness.
20 Please proceed.
21 MR. TIEGER:
22 Q. Last time, General. You refer in your speech to the fact that
23 the brigade holds 70 per cent of the territory of SAO brigade. That
24 70 per cent that you're referring to in this speech included places like
25 Seher and Memici; right?
1 A. I made that speech on 25th of September, 1992 --
2 Q. So the --
3 A. -- when a Serb village under --
4 Q. So the answer is "yes"? I'm sorry to interrupt you, sir, but
5 you're now proposing to make another speech. I asked a pretty simple
6 question. You've now given the date. So the answer is that by that
7 time, by the time -- this speech, when you're referring to the brigade
8 holding 70 per cent of the territory, that includes the villages I
9 mentioned. That's correct?
10 A. That's correct, since you say so.
11 JUDGE ORIE: No, it's not correct because Mr. Tieger says so. Is
12 it correct?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
15 MR. TIEGER:
16 Q. Now you also mention that in exhorting your audience toward
17 further efforts and more conquering, that that would enable
18 President Karadzic to go peacefully to the conference. That means so
19 that he could go to the peace conference and present the negotiators with
20 fait accompli about territories that were held and then claim that those
21 new realities could not be ignored and should be incorporated into the
22 settlement of what constituted Republika Srpska; correct?
23 A. Mr. President, may I ask you something. Could I kindly ask you
24 something? I mean, I simply feel the urge to say this to you.
25 The consequence of this speech, please, I'm kindly ask you this.
1 This makes no sense. I was making this speech to women and children
2 because Milici was falling.
3 JUDGE ORIE: No one asked you to whom you made that speech.
4 You're simply asked whether what you told your audience, whoever that may
5 have been, is that you -- if I could interpret your words, Mr. Tieger,
6 you paved the way for more successful negotiations by -- on the ground
7 getting under your control certain territories.
8 If that's true, tell Mr. Tieger; if you disagree, tell Mr. Tieger
9 as well.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not agree that this was said
11 as a consequence of the talks. On the contrary, the motivation of people
12 to send their able-bodied military conscripts to defend Milici because
13 Milici was under threat and --
14 MR. TIEGER:
15 Q. General, I did not assert to you that your speech was a
16 consequence of the talks. I referred instead to a particular reference
17 you made during your speech and asked you to confirm its meaning. So in
18 light of that, let me present you with something that Dr. Karadzic said.
19 MR. TIEGER: And if we could turn to 65 ter 02406; English
20 page 157, B/C/S page 140.
21 Q. Dr. Karadzic offering there at the 46th Assembly Session a
22 retrospective, stating:
23 "We have created new realities," and then gives an example,
24 "speaking," he says, "in narrow terms, Zvornik used to be 60-40 to the
25 advantage of the Muslims, but the Serbs from Zenica came, they occupied
1 Kozluk, the Muslims left for Europe and I do not know where else. And
2 then those gentlemen told us who gives you a right to ask for Zvornik?
3 We request Zvornik based on the right which comes out of a new reality.
4 This are war has created the new reality. There are now the Serbs from
5 Zenica there. If you want to give Zvornik to the Muslims then you have
6 to wage a new war in order to expel these Serbs back to Zenica. We
7 request Zenica according to this right."
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: "We request Zvornik ..."
9 MR. TIEGER: Zvornik, sorry. Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. General, that is an expression from the Supreme Commander about
11 the use of the new realities created by territories taken by the Bosnian
12 Serb forces in the course of their discussions with the internationals,
13 and that is exactly what you're referring to in your speech before the
14 people of Milici by telling them that with further conquering
15 Dr. Karadzic can go peacefully to the conference. That's the truth,
16 isn't it?
17 A. The truth is that I was motivated by the people who were there to
18 defend Milici, which was just the impetus, if possible. To preserve
19 Milici, because Milici was about to fall. There were about 40.000
20 citizens there, Naser Oric destroyed a couple of villages, he had reached
21 Milici, Vlasenica was under attack. What else could a commander say but
22 to say something to motivate the fact? Anyway, according to the land
23 register 70 per cent of the land in that area was Serb owned. That's a
25 Q. General, you ask rhetorically what else somebody could have said,
1 and no one can know the answer to that in totality. We just know what
2 you said and I'm focusing your attention or trying to do so on what your
3 actual words were and what their meaning was. Now, if you don't want to
4 answer my question about that and about its relationship to
5 Dr. Karadzic's explanation of the utility of the new realities, then I'll
6 move on to the next question.
7 A. I accept in its entirety my speech. I accept my speech in its
8 entirety. I mean, I accept it in its entirety, word for word.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Let's move on, Mr. Tieger.
10 MR. TIEGER: I would tender 65 ter 2406.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document receives number P7357.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, how many pages is this document? You
14 referred only to a few pages.
15 MR. TIEGER: The entire session is quite a long one, and when
16 I -- I should have specified the excerpt, which I believe is consistent
17 with our practice. We can certainly indicate that this excerpt is
18 admitted but have a document to which we can add further excerpts if they
20 JUDGE ORIE: A number will be reserved, and we already decide
21 that the relevant portions you read are admitted into evidence, but you
22 have to administratively upload the portions you relied on.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And the cover page.
24 JUDGE ORIE: And the cover page. And that all should be uploaded
25 under number P7357.
1 Mr. Tieger, could we receive, well, let's say within the next 48
2 hours the excerpt to be uploaded and you report in court under what
3 doc ID that is uploaded.
4 MR. TIEGER: Understood, Mr. President. Thank you.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
6 MR. TIEGER: Can we call up P353, page 246, please.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if I may, I accepted
8 my statement, my statement. I did. I accepted my statement but not the
9 other documents, I mean. Just my statement.
10 JUDGE ORIE: You don't have to accept anything. You testified
11 that you accept your statement -- Witness, Witness --
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I accepted my statement.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's fine. Other documents, we decide on
14 whether it will be admitted into evidence irrespective of whether you
15 accept anything. And would you again refrain from your attempts to take
16 over this courtroom.
17 MR. TIEGER:
18 Q. General, you see on the screen before you now it's a meeting that
19 took place in Zvornik on 30th of June 1992 attended by a number of
20 people, most notably including Dr. Karadzic and General Mladic. You see
21 some of the other participants on this first page.
22 MR. TIEGER: Turn the page quickly.
23 Q. So we saw Milenko Stanic, president of the SAO Birac government
24 on the first page. Here we see the presence of Marko Pavlovic, also
25 known as Branko Popovic, about whom we have spoken during the course of
1 your testimony. And --
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tieger, the name of Milenko Stanic is crossed
4 MR. TIEGER: He also appears on the previous page, Mr. President,
5 in his capacity as a Vlasenica municipality official.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
7 MR. TIEGER: If we can turn to page 248 of the English and 246 of
8 the Serbian, we see remarks by Mr. Stanic.
9 Q. And he begins by reporting to Dr. Karadzic and General Mladic:
10 "We have defined the western boundaries in the area of the Birac
12 Now, he's talking about what we have already seen depicted in the
13 maps we reviewed, and that's the movement of the borders of areas
14 controlled by the Bosnian Serb forces into the previous Muslim
15 municipality of Kalesija and the formation of the new Serbian
16 municipality of Kalesija later called the Serbian municipality of Osmaci;
18 A. I don't know what date this is.
19 Q. June 30th, 1992.
20 A. Well, may I say, Mr. Prosecutor, Kalesija was in the hands of the
21 Serb forces from the 8th to the 10th of May. From the 8th to 10th of
22 May. On the 23rd, the Muslims took Kalesija back, so it was under their
23 military and political authority. That's the truth.
24 Q. On the 26th of May, you gave the order to the forces in Osmaci to
25 move the Muslims. On the 27th of May, as we've seen, those forces came
1 into Seher, for example, rounded the people up, separated the men from
2 the women, took the men to detention facilities. We also discussed
3 yesterday the taking of control over Memici, and we saw the map that
4 embraced those areas.
5 So those -- those efforts were all reflections of drawing the
6 borders of the Birac region in the field; correct?
7 A. You just asked me about the documents, about Kalesija being under
8 our control, and I am explaining that it wasn't, that the three villages
9 that you mentioned - Seher, Like, and let me help you, and -- Seher,
10 Like, and -- there's another village. It will come back to me. That was
11 in the depth of the Serbian municipality of Osmaci. Three Serbian
13 So yesterday we were talking -- for your information, so that you
14 know it precisely, there were 300 people in those villages. Out of those
15 300, 129 were taken to the school and then to the camp. And luckily all
16 of them were brought back so -- yes?
17 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, answer the question rather than to tell us
18 what you consider relevant. If you don't answer those questions, we'll
19 have to interpret what we see on our own without any answers to questions
20 you have given.
21 Mr. Tieger, next question, please.
22 MR. TIEGER: All right.
23 Q. Let's move on and see what the other officials at the meeting
24 reported to the Bosnian Serb political and military leadership.
25 As we've seen, Branko Grujic was also there. And we'll look at
1 his comments at page 249 in the English and 247 in the B/C/S in a moment.
2 But before we do, I just want to confirm that you knew Mr. Grujic;
3 correct? So in the course of establishing your brigade between the 19th
4 of May and, let's say, the 2nd of June, you went to various
5 municipalities and met with people, among others, him?
6 A. I knew Mr. Grujic. I knew him well.
7 Q. And you spoke with him and learned from him about his overriding
8 desire to ensure that the Serb people were protected from their perceived
9 enemies; correct?
10 A. I didn't discuss that with Grujic. I met Grujic only when I came
11 and we became friends later on. But I never talked about this with
12 Grujic. I never had the opportunity because I was mostly in Sekovici,
13 Osmaci, Zvornik. At that time, there was no fighting there because on
14 23rd of April all combat actions in Zvornik were over. So I was
15 constantly along the axis of Zvornik and Kladovo and another one, so I
16 didn't have time to have any contacts with him. I never spoke with him
17 about that, no.
18 Q. General, at his trial in Belgrade, when you testified under oath,
19 you vouched for him as a man -- "a man who, above all, wanted to protect
20 the Serbian people."
21 A. I don't doubt that, just as I wanted it. But I don't think that
22 neither of us wanted to commit genocide against another ethnic group.
23 Q. That's exactly what you said to the Belgrade Court, isn't it,
24 that it seemed to you he's not a man who is thinking about genocide.
25 Even though he wasn't charged with genocide in that proceeding; right?
1 You just thought to volunteer that information.
2 A. I don't know if I should have done that or not. You can evaluate
3 that, but ... that was my thinking.
4 Q. General, the fact is that contrary to what you've just told this
5 Court, you did speak with Mr. Grujic. You told the Belgrade Court you
6 spoke to him and as a result you were aware of the fact, according to
7 you, that he was a man who, above all, wanted to protect the Serbian
8 people; right? You learned at least that much from him. That's -- or do
9 you now disavow your Belgrade testimony?
10 A. I don't disavow anything that I said.
11 Q. General, the fact is that you did speak to Grujic. He's not a
12 man who amassed his feelings about protecting the Serbian people or what
13 that required, was he? He was open about that.
14 A. We all spoke openly about the need to protect our own people. I
15 don't know what is of dispute there. I don't know when he said that, but
16 he did say that a number of times.
17 Q. Well, let me show you what Mr. Grujic said candidly to a western
18 media correspondent who was -- about what protecting the Serb people
20 MR. TIEGER: And if we can turn to 65 ter 32503.
21 JUDGE ORIE: While we're waiting for that, you said you all spoke
22 openly about the need to protect our own people. I don't know when he
23 said that but he did say that a number of times.
24 Was that in conversations with you or...
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I met Mr. Grujic perhaps sometime
1 in 1992 after the brigade was formed when I was touring the
2 municipalities. So I don't recall when he said that to me. So I cannot
3 confirm when he told me that.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But he told you but you don't remember when?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Is that a confirmation that you -- he did tell you
7 but you don't remember when he told you. Is that what you confirm?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Now a minute ago you told us that you never talked
10 about this with Mr. Grujic and that you had no time even to speak with
11 him about these matters. Now, two minutes later, you're telling us --
12 Witness, would you not interrupt me.
13 Now, two minutes later, you're telling us that although you do
14 not know when he told you that that's what he did tell you.
15 May I remind you that it's not advised to change your testimony
16 within one or two minutes.
17 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
18 MR. TIEGER: Thank you.
19 Q. Witness, we're looking at an article by Roger Cohen of the
20 "New York Times" that appeared on March 7th, 1994. We do not have a
21 B/C/S or Serbian translation at the moment, so I will have to read you
22 the relevant portions.
23 JUDGE ORIE: And do it slowly, please, Mr. Tieger.
24 MR. TIEGER:
25 Q. Mr. Cohen begins by talking about Branko Grujic. Begins:
1 "Up through a ghostly terrain of smashed and ransacked former
2 Muslim homes, Branko Grujic led the way intent on showing off his
3 crowning contribution to what he calls the victory of Serbian Orthodox
4 Christianity over Islam in Bosnia."
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could you please indicate where are you reading
6 from so that that can be enlarged.
7 MR. TIEGER: Yes, it's the very top. I'm sorry, Your Honour.
8 Q. He goes on to note that Mr. -- that they arrive at the top of the
9 summit of a cliff. Then he notes Mr. Grujic states:
10 "The Turks destroyed the Serbian church that was here when they
11 arrived in Zvornik in 1463. Now we are rebuilding the church and
12 reclaiming this as Serbian land forever and ever."
13 As we go down the page, he mentions Mr. Grujic's position. Where
14 it begins the -- keep scrolling, please. The second fact is that Grujic
15 is the most important official in a strategic town that lies on the
16 border with Serbia and is also less than 20 miles from the front line to
17 the west at Kalesija ..."
18 MR. TIEGER: And if we turn the page, please.
19 Q. It continues:
20 "Beyond the immediate conflict over Tuzla, Zvornik is important
21 in a broader respect. Like other towns on the Drina including Foca and
22 Visegrad, it was at least 50 per cent Muslim before the war and the
23 Bosnian government wants the town back if a peace settlement is to be
24 reached. This notion makes Grujic laugh.
25 "'Return to Zvornik?', the mayor scoffed. 'The Muslims must be
1 joking. This was a Serbian town before Islam existed in the Balkans.
2 They'd better not dream of things they cannot fulfil or things will just
3 get worse. Either a peace is worked out soon or we Serbs advance. We
4 cannot standstill. Kalesija is Muslim now, but it may not be for long.'"
5 And then continuing down to the bottom of the article, Grujic
6 notes that he had renamed the Muslim village of Divic, Sveti Stefan,
7 after the Christian Saint Steven, and finally notes:
8 "We are liberating our beautiful land. Tell Serbs in America it
9 is their duty to send us money for the church."
10 Now, General, I put to you that Mr. Grujic's candor before a
11 western journalist from a prominent publication reflects his openness in
12 describing the objectives that resulted in the taking of territory, the
13 conquering of territory, and that was equally open with you about what
14 the objectives were and what needed to be done. That's the reality of
15 your discussions with Mr. Grujic and your vouching for him in the
16 Belgrade trial.
17 A. The relationship between myself and Mr. Grujic was a friendly one
18 during the war and after the war. However, I was the commander of the
19 Birac Brigade and he was the commander [as interpreted] of the Zvornik
20 Brigade, so that we didn't really met that often. It's my personal
21 opinion which I stated that -- what I said about him is my personal
22 opinion. I cannot comment on what is written here, because this is an
23 article that I am seeing for the first time.
24 Q. The transcript says that you identified him as the commander of
25 the Zvornik Brigade.
1 A. No, he was the president of the municipality in the Zvornik
2 Brigade. Of the Zvornik Brigade. That was the time when the
3 Zvornik Brigade was formed, on the 2nd of June, 1992. So I had no
4 authority over Zvornik, none at all. Only perhaps if I passed through
5 Zvornik, I would drop by for a coffee.
6 Q. I want to look next at what Mr. Grujic reported to the Bosnian
7 Serb political and military leadership about what had been done in
9 MR. TIEGER: But first I'd tender 65 ter 32503.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 32503 receives number P7358.
12 JUDGE ORIE: In the absence of any objections admitted into
14 It should be marked for identification, as a matter of fact,
15 because there's no translation yet, Mr. Tieger. So I made a mistake.
16 P7358 is marked for identification awaiting a translation.
17 However, no objections were raised.
18 MR. TIEGER: Thank you. Turn to page 247 in the English, page
19 249 of the -- P353. I'm sorry. 247 of the Serbian and 249 of the
21 Q. There we see Mr. Grujic speaking, and he says:
22 "We have 32.000 Serbs. We have successfully implemented the
23 president's decision to settle Divic and Kozluk," if we turn the page in
24 both languages.
25 "... to settle Divic and Kozluk with our children."
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: The page has gone away again.
2 MR. TIEGER:
3 Q. And he also praises Marko Pavlovic. And we see Pavlovic's
4 remarks on the next page. Let's take a look at those. And with respect
5 to Pavlovic, you and he were on friendly terms, like comrades; correct?
6 A. No.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, just for the transcript, I think you
8 started reading at e-court page 249 and then moved to e-court page 250 in
9 the English, where the first line reads -- reads "with our children."
10 MR. TIEGER: Correct. Thank you, Mr. President.
11 JUDGE ORIE: And I think for Mr. Pavlovic we are on e-court page
13 MR. TIEGER: Okay. If we could turn quickly then to
14 65 ter 32499. Page 36, please, and page 21 in the Serbian.
15 Q. This is your testimony in the Belgrade trial. And here you're
16 discussing Mr. Pavlovic. You indicate at the bottom of page 36 in the
17 English that you met, you were on correct terms after that. You, as the
18 commander of the Birac Brigade.
19 MR. TIEGER: Turn the page in English.
20 Q. You're asked what period you're talking. You say in July or
21 June. You were asked:
22 "What sort of contact did you have? Business or private?"
23 And you say:
24 "Well, we were on friendly terms, like comrades."
25 Now, you confirm that's what you said to the Belgrade Court, sir?
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] [Microphone not activated]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. -- I -- I don't receive interpretation because
3 you have not switched on your microphone, Mr. Stojanovic.
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.
5 I would kindly ask that we have the previous page in B/C/S. It
6 seemed to me that the quotation was not proper. The Prosecutor asked the
7 witness whether it is correct that he said that he had a friendly
8 relationship with Pavlovic, and I would kindly ask that part of the
9 question and answer be read out, the answer that the witness provided to
10 the Special Court in Belgrade, precisely on this page in B/C/S.
11 JUDGE ORIE: On the previous page or on the page which we have on
12 our screen now? Because Mr. Tieger, both in his question and then when
13 reading it out, I think literally read what [Overlapping speakers] ...
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Precisely the page that we have
15 on the screen now, and I can say that it is the question put by the
16 Presiding Judge, the third one from the bottom in B/C/S, and the third
17 answer from the bottom in B/C/S.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger is reading from the English. Could you
19 seek assistance, Mr. Stojanovic, which part you think was misquoted?
20 Because I'm unable to identify any misquote.
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm going to read
22 this out without any intention of leading the witness in any way. The
23 president is saying:
24 "You became friends two times?"
25 And Andric is saying:
1 "Not friends but we did speak in a friendly way. I was never his
2 superior" --
3 JUDGE ORIE: That's not what Mr. Tieger quoted. Mr. Tieger
4 quoted -- and if it's not there in the B/C/S version, you can inform us.
5 Mr. Tieger quoted the answer to a question put by the Presiding Judge,
6 the question being:
7 "What sort of a contact did you have? Business or private? "
8 Then the witness is recorded as having answered:
9 "Well, we were on friendly terms, like comrades."
10 That's what included in his question and that what is he asked
11 the witness about after that. If there's any reason to revisit the
12 matter and to draw attention to other portions, you have an opportunity
13 to do so in re-examination, Mr. Stojanovic. Therefore --
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour. Very
15 well. Thank you.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You should not have intervened if the quote is
17 found also in the B/C/S version.
18 Please proceed.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 MR. TIEGER:
21 Q. Very simple, General Andric: Do you agree that you told the
22 Belgrade Court, under oath, "we were on friendly term, like comrades"?
23 A. Everything I said was under oath, so friendship can be
24 interpreted in several ways.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Witness, this is a literal quote. Do you
1 deny that you said it, or do you confirm that you said this? We're not
2 seeking an interpretation. We're just establishing whether you used
3 those words.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Confirm that I said that.
5 JUDGE ORIE: And was it truth -- was it the truth or not?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've already said if a person can
7 be friends after two times -- well, we did not quarrel, we did not really
8 communicate. He was not my subordinate. I was not his superior, and --
9 JUDGE ORIE: My question is was it the truth, the one sentence
10 you uttered.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I accept that it was the truth.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Now, if you were -- when you were asked by
13 Mr. Tieger just a few minutes ago -- and let me find it. When you were
15 "And with respect to Pavlovic" -- and I'm quoting from page 47,
16 line 12.
17 "And with respect to Pavlovic, you and he were on friendly terms,
18 like comrades; correct?"
19 You said no. And now, three minutes later, you say that's what I
20 told the Belgrade Court and that's the truth. So a consistent answer
21 would have been yes.
22 We'll take a break and we'll resume at 20 minutes past 12.00.
23 You may follow the usher.
24 [The witness stands down]
25 JUDGE ORIE: We take the break.
1 --- Recess taken at 11.58 a.m.
2 --- On resuming at 12.23 p.m.
3 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, we are not far away from the time. I
5 think we have some 40 minutes left in view of your latest assessment,
6 which was four and a half hours.
7 MR. TIEGER: Right. I was told 50 but that's quibbling a bit.
8 JUDGE ORIE: 50 -- yes. No, you're right. As a matter of fact,
9 my math is getting worse and worse. Yes.
10 MR. TIEGER: That should work, Mr. President. I'd just wanted to
11 mention that in respect of the Court's request to upload the document
12 within 48 hours, the relevant excerpted pages from 65 ter 02406 have now
13 been uploaded into e-court under 65 ter 02406a, which has been assigned
14 P7357, and we uploaded six pages; that is, the speech that was shown, the
15 Karadzic speech that was shown, and presumably the cover page as well.
16 JUDGE ORIE: And Madam Registrar is hereby instructed to replace
17 the current -- what is currently uploaded for P7357 to replace that by
18 and it's a -- it's only there in -- it's there in two languages?
19 MR. TIEGER: Yes, it is, Mr. President, and it's under
20 65 ter 02406a.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That -- what is presently under P7357 is
22 replaced by 65 ter 02406a, and P7357 is admitted into evidence.
23 Please proceed.
24 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President.
25 Q. General, in view of the time I want to move on to a slightly
1 different period, and that's a bit later in 1992. Now, referring back
2 for a moment to your speech in Milici referring to 70 per cent held, 30
3 per cent not held among the parts of the region that by that time were
4 not yet held by the Bosnian Serb forces was Cerska; correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And if we could call up P2095, I want to look at a Drina Corps
7 order in November of 1992 referring to upcoming operations including,
8 among other areas, Cerska. This is an order from the Drina Corps command
9 dated 24 November 1992, in this case to the Zvornik Light Infantry
10 Brigade, pursuant to an earlier directive of the Main Staff of the
11 Army of Republika Srpska of November 19, 1992, and it provides, among
12 other things, launch an attack using the main body of troops and major
13 equipment to inflict on the enemy the highest possible losses, exhaust
14 them, break them up, or force them to surrender, and force the Muslim
15 local population to abandon the area of Cerska, Zepa, Srebrenica, and
17 So, General, that was another reflection, in this case in
18 November of 1992, to undertake further conquering of areas not yet under
19 the control of the Bosnian Serb military and political authorities;
21 A. This is an accurate document, but it is a consequence of major
22 suffering precisely in this area. The political leadership from the area
23 of Birac asked the supreme commander --
24 Q. General, I don't recall asking you for the underlying reasons.
25 But now that you're getting into them, let me ask you a question related
1 to that.
2 In fact, this operation reflected an effort to attain a key
3 strategic objectives; that is, strategic objective number 3, the
4 elimination of the Drina as a border; correct?
5 A. No. No, no way. No. Do allow me to explain what this is.
6 Q. No, I'm not going to allow to you explain. Now I have limited
7 time and now we're going to focus on the questions that I'm putting to
9 So your position is no way that this relates to the strategic
10 objectives; right?
11 A. No.
12 Q. General, this Trial Chamber has received evidence, and that's
13 P356, e-court pages 146 through 147, it's also the same in the Serbian,
14 that there was a meeting on November 8th of corps commanders, including
15 General Zivanovic, whose order this is. And after Dr. Karadzic mentioned
16 that it might be good if we solve the issue of the Drina,
17 Mr. Krajisnik -- in fact, let's call it up. You can follow it.
18 MR. TIEGER: P356.
19 Q. That's the portion that I was referring to, Mr. Krajisnik talking
20 at that meeting:
21 "I admire the military successes. It is very dangerous to seize
22 their territories, the Drina and the Neretva."
23 And then noting:
24 "We have a disproportionate engagement of the army in relation to
25 the strategic," turn the page, "objectives. We have not achieved the
1 Neretva," that's number 4, "the sea," that's number 6, "and the Podrinje
2 area," number 3. "We have achieved the corridor and separation with the
4 He goes on to note that the most pressing thing is to mop up
5 Orasje," it's a Croat area, "and then to solve the problem of the
6 Podrinje area and the Neretva river valley as soon as possible. The
7 Muslims must not stay with us and they should not be given any kind of
8 autonomy. The most important objective is the task assigned to
9 Zivanovic, the mopping up of the Drina," that is the "ciscenje" of the
10 Drina. "The most important task is separation from the Muslims."
11 Now, that's a meeting with the Bosnian Serb leadership, with
12 General Mladic, the commander of the Drina Corps, that preceded both
13 Directive 4 and the follow-up order from the Drina Corps that we just saw
14 by General Zivanovic. It's crystal clear, General, is it not, that
15 the -- that these directives which followed this meeting were an effort
16 to do what the Bosnian Serb leadership ordered, and that is to achieve in
17 this instance Directive number 3?
18 A. No.
19 Q. And --
20 A. Allow me, just allow me. The political leadership of Birac
21 asked, by way of an ultimatum from the supreme commander, to have this
22 operation carried out because of the genocide that we experienced in
23 Vlasenica, Srebrenica, and Bratunac. That was the basis. But you don't
24 want to listen to any of that.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Could you refrain from such comments. You were
1 allowed to give an explanation and refrain from these nasty comments
2 which you're supposed not to give as a witness.
3 MR. TIEGER:
4 Q. General, you will agree that operations ensued in -- that took
5 place in the first half of 1993 in the Podrinje resulting in the,
6 quote/unquote, liberation of territory and that the taking of additional
7 portions of Eastern Bosnia by the Bosnian Serb military; correct?
8 A. No correct.
9 Q. There were no operations in 1993?
10 A. There was an Operation Podrinje 93, that is what it was called,
11 but it's the consequence of what I spoke of a moment ago; namely, that
12 the political leadership asked the supreme commander and the supreme
13 commander issued an order to the commander of the Main Staff to carry out
14 an operation because we had experienced a genocide that was never seen
15 before. And I mentioned that from September until --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I'll stop you again. For one reason or
17 another, you don't want to answer the questions. No one said -- you were
18 not asked what the reasons were. You were just asked whether operations
19 ensued in the first half of 1993 resulting in the liberation of
20 territory. Whether that happened or not. Apparently by giving the
21 reasons why it happened, although not part of the question, you
22 apparently do not deny that these operations took place.
23 Now that was what you were asked about. Again, you're -- by not
24 answering the questions, you are really undermining your own testimony,
25 and I think it would not be fair to the Defence that calls you as a
1 witness to do that.
2 Mr. Tieger, next question, please.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
4 JUDGE ORIE: No, we've heard now enough.
5 Mr. Tieger.
6 MR. TIEGER: Can I have P338, please. Page 160 in the English;
7 page 139 in the Serbian.
8 Q. Let's take look at what the Bosnian Serb military and political
9 leadership said in the combat readiness report in April of 1993 about
10 these operations. And it's 160 in the English. Looking at the last
11 sentence of the top paragraph in this document of April 1993:
12 "In the last month and a half" --
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And where can it be found in B/C/S?
14 MR. TIEGER: I'm sorry.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Could it be that it's the third paragraph from the
16 bottom, the very last sentence of that?
17 MR. TIEGER: Yes, that's correct.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed. Could it be enlarged for the
20 MR. TIEGER: "In the last month and a half our operations have
21 concentrated on the liberation of Podrinje as there by the strategic
22 objective of our war would be realised, one that could be defined as
23 'establishing contact with Serbia on the river Drina or the Drina ceasing
24 to be frontier.'"
25 Q. That's another reflection, General, of the fact that these
1 operations were pursuant to and efforts to implement the strategic
2 objectives which had been announced as early as May 12th, 1992. That's
3 the truth, isn't it?
4 A. For me as commander, that is not true. I was not aware of any
5 such truth.
6 Q. General, you were aware of the fact that these objectives meant
7 that the achievement of Directive number 3 meant that those areas
8 identified in the November 24th, 1992, order that I showed you at the
9 beginning of this session had to -- to be in Serb hands, areas like
10 Cerska, Konjevic Polje, Gorazde, et cetera. You knew those had to be in
11 Serb hands, didn't you, and you knew those were part of the strategic
13 A. No. As brigade commander, I received my task and my axis for the
14 brigade, and that is how much I know. So we can talk about it in that
16 Q. So you're not denying that that was the case, that the strategic
17 objectives meant that areas, such as the ones I mentioned, were
18 considered to be Bosnian Serb and had to become Bosnian Serb?
19 A. I deny that.
20 MR. TIEGER: Can we have 65 ter 02380, please.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Could I meanwhile ask a question.
22 What we just looked at was the analysis of the combat readiness
23 and activities of the Army of Republika Srpska, which analysis was done
24 by the Main Staff of the VRS.
25 Do you have any reason to challenge the accuracy of that
1 analysis? So irrespective of whether you were aware of it.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not up to me to evaluate the
3 superior command or to give my opinion about the superior command.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you've given your opinion again and again,
5 saying that what is written in this report is not true. So you have
6 already done that. And therefore, I'm asking you whether have you
7 reasons to challenge this analysis, and if so what those reasons are
8 apart from that you have an opinion which differs apparently from why
9 these operations were under taken.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In order to be able to answer that
11 question, I would have to read the entire analysis. Otherwise, I cannot
12 take a position on that.
13 JUDGE ORIE: The relevant portion was read to you. What the
14 purpose or what the --
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't even see that portion.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it was read to you. But if I say, "I need to
17 read that paragraph," you could have asked, and Mr. Tieger would have
18 given you an opportunity to do so. But he quoted at least that relevant
20 Mr. Tieger, perhaps next time we should be more careful that we
21 verify whether the witness can follow the written text. Please proceed.
22 MR. TIEGER: Yeah, I thought because -- and I'd still maintain
23 that because of the focus on identifying the precise portion in Serbian
24 the witness couldn't have missed it, but we'll leave it at that.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and I even asked it to be enlarged for the
2 MR. TIEGER: 65 ter 02380, e-court page 40 in the English and
3 page 33 in the B/C/S.
4 Q. The bottom -- toward the bottom of the page, we see Dr. Karadzic
5 speaking. He says --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you see where it starts recording what
7 Mr. Karadzic said? It's the lower part of your text.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, "We cannot..."
9 MR. TIEGER: He notes that they still have not recognised our
10 borders of Republika Srpska.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please read slowly, Mr. Tieger.
12 MR. TIEGER:
13 Q. "Gorazde is ours. Perhaps we will have to make some concessions
14 in parts of Sarajevo itself for Gorazde to remain ours, because the Drina
15 is of enormous importance for Republika Srpska and for the Serbian people
16 and lastly it is one of the strategic aims for the Drina not to be a
17 border, that is what we adopted here in this Assembly."
18 Now, that's a reflection of the fact that the possession of the
19 areas described in the November 24th, 1992, order, including Gorazde, are
20 part of the -- are part of strategic objective number 3, which includes
21 ensuring that the -- that the territory in that area is or becomes
22 Bosnian Serb. That's what the Supreme Commander said, and that's the
23 reality of the situation with respect to the strategic objectives.
24 That's correct, isn't it?
25 A. It didn't reach me what the Supreme Commander said. I knew my
1 objectives: To protect the villages and to ensure normal life and work.
2 That was the task of the brigade. As for the Supreme Commander and what
3 the strategy was, that is something that I was not knowledgeable about.
4 MR. TIEGER: I would tender this excerpt, Mr. President, under
5 the same conditions as we discussed with the previously assembly session
7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, could you reserve a number,
8 awaiting the upload of an excerpt.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the number would be P7359.
10 JUDGE ORIE: That number is reserved.
11 MR. TIEGER:
12 Q. Well, General, let's take a look at how the liberation of the
13 Podrinje referred to in the combat readiness report in April was
14 implemented. And in that regard, let's call up 65 ter 03408 first. And
15 what I will do is show you two or three related excerpts in order.
16 There's no Serbian translation of this, so I will read it to you
17 slowly, sir, and the Court and the Defence can follow along to ensure
18 that the reading is accurate.
19 This is a statement of the president of the Security Council
20 issued on 3rd of March, 1993, regarding the situation in Eastern Bosnia.
21 "The Security Council, recalling all its relevant resolutions and
22 statements, expresses its grave concern at and condemns the continuing
23 unacceptable military attacks in Eastern Bosnia and the resulting
24 deterioration in the humanitarian situation in that region. It is
25 appalled that, even as peace talks are continuing, attacks by Serb
1 paramilitary units, including, reportedly, the killings of innocent
2 civilians, continue in Eastern Bosnia. In this connection, the Security
3 Council is particularly concerned about the fall of the town of Cerska
4 and the imminent fall of neighbouring villages. The Security Council
5 demands that the killings and atrocities must stop and reaffirms that
6 those guilty of crimes against international humanitarian law will be
7 held individually responsible by the world community."
8 And, similarly, let me turn you to 65 ter 09352. This is an
9 UNPROFOR report of 15 March 1993. Command UNPROFOR dispatch, focusing in
10 this case on events in the area of Srebrenica. As you can see in the
11 bottom of the third paragraph, it notes:
12 "In visiting the town of Srebrenica the commander assessed that
13 the town had been subject to continuous" --
14 THE INTERPRETER: Kindly slow down when reading. Thank you.
15 MR. TIEGER: I'm sorry for that.
16 "... the commander assessed that the town had been subject to
17 continuous bombardment and shelling until he arrived."
18 Then if we continue to paragraph 6, it begins:
19 "There is systematic cleansing of the Srebrenica enclave that has
20 been going on full force now since at least the beginning of March and
21 perhaps since early January. The Serbs are ethnically cleansing one
22 village at a time. First by shelling the village, and then attacking
23 with grounds forces."
24 And if we continue toward the bottom of the paragraph in the
25 penultimate sentence, it states:
1 "Bratunac is reported to be cut off. Cerska and Konjevic Polje
2 have fallen. Srebrenica is probably the next Serb objective which they
3 could possibly take in the next three to four days if they so wished."
4 General Andric, those two documents are reflections of how the
5 operations to liberate the Podrinje were implemented; correct?
6 A. These two documents are not entirely true. The best truth will
7 be provided will be by General Morillon who was there at a couple of
8 meetings. Thanks to President Karadzic and General Mladic, the civilian
9 population was spared from revenge. And as a soldier, I have to be proud
10 of that. Thanks to the Supreme Commander Karadzic and General Mladic, we
11 saved those civilians from revenge and retribution, and this is something
12 that General Morillon can testify to. Otherwise, we enabled
13 General Morillon to visit Srebrenica to bring aid there, to allow for the
14 refugees or the civilian people to organise themselves, and to provide a
15 transport for them to go to Kalesija. And we stopped at the entrance to
16 Srebrenica upon the order of General Mladic. We could have captured it
17 as early as the 15th of May, but thanks to an order by the
18 Supreme Commander we stopped there. That's the truth, if that's what you
19 want to hear.
20 Q. General, these documents, and in particular the first one I
21 showed you, are just the tip of the iceberg of the unrelenting
22 international pressure brought to bear on the Bosnian Serb leadership in
23 the face of those illegal operations that forced the Bosnian Serb
24 leadership to abort the intention to liberate the Podrinje in full and
25 stop at Srebrenica. It wasn't a humanitarian gesture at all. It was a
1 reflection of the reality of the pressure that was brought on them.
2 That's the truth.
3 A. The truth is that this operation in 1993 was a military operation
4 and had to be carried out because of Kamenica, where 120 people died.
5 Because of Vlasenica, because of Milici. Had they been sitting there,
6 nobody would have driven them away. But if somebody was killing Serbs
7 every day, what were we supposed to do? Sit there with our arms crossed?
8 They were killing us in 1941, 1942, and so we had to do something.
9 Thanks to Karadzic and Mladic, no civilian casualties happened
10 there. Even General Mladic said that the fighters must not be killed.
11 They should have been allowed to go either to Kalesija or to Srebrenica,
12 and General Morillon congratulated me a number of times. He said, "Well,
13 done, Colonel. We did a good thing in making that sure that there were
14 no casualties." And this is something that the public should be told at
15 least. That's the truth. Please believe me.
16 MR. TIEGER: I tender those two documents, Mr. President.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 03408 receives number P7360.
19 And 09359 receives number P7361.
20 JUDGE ORIE: There are no B/C/S translations yet, Mr. Tieger?
21 MR. TIEGER: The first document should be MFI'd pending the
22 translation, that's correct.
23 JUDGE ORIE: P7360 is marked for identification awaiting an
24 English translation.
25 P7361 is admitted into evidence.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: And Madam Registrar, is P7361 related to
2 65 ter 09359 or 09352?
3 THE REGISTRAR: 09359, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: 5-9, okay.
5 MR. TIEGER:
6 Q. Well -- no.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: At page 60, line 21, Mr. Tieger said:
8 "And, similarly, let me turn you to 65 ter 09352."
9 THE REGISTRAR: Indeed, Your Honours, correction. And the
10 document on the screen is indeed 09352.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much, Madam Registrar.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
13 MR. TIEGER:
14 Q. Well, in our remaining time, let's take a quick look at some of
15 your participation in those operations.
16 MR. TIEGER: If we could call up P2193.
17 Q. I know you've seen this document before, General. This is your
18 report to the Drina Corps command of the 2nd of March, 1993, appearing to
19 report basically that all is going well without major problems. And then
21 "The village of Gobelji has been burnt. And tomorrow the plan is
22 to do Paljevine."
23 Burning the village of Gobelji, General, was a way of ensuring
24 that the Muslim inhabitants of that village would not return to that
25 village and to that part of now Serb-controlled territory; correct?
1 A. That is not correct. If you need an explanation, I can give it
2 to you. This is the duty operations officer, but that was a woman who
3 was writing that report. Not the commander. It's a daily combat report.
4 And the village has just eight houses. It had eight houses, but it was
5 used as a fortified facility. So that was at the front line, the
6 population was in Cerska. Only fighters went there to the line. And
7 also, they took care of the cattle there. So this was a fortified front
8 line such as the facility in Paljevine.
9 And then in view of the fact that the woman is not sufficiently
10 trained in the military sense, she said they burned, but she was actually
11 angry because at the same day we had ten killed fighters. It says five
12 here. And she said that it was burned. There was nothing to be torched
13 there. This was a fortified military facility feature. The population
14 was already in Cerska.
15 So torching was not my objective. But last time I said that my
16 father's house was also burned, so I knew what that meant to somebody.
17 So I'm sure that the soldiers did not permit anything like that to
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Andric, this report was sent under your name.
20 Can you explain that?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, you can see that
22 there's no signature there. I was in action, so that operations officer
23 would send a report out every day. I'm not disputing it, but I'm just
24 saying that that was a girl who sent this report. She was a lieutenant.
25 She drafted the report. What I'm saying, though, is that the village was
1 not torched. The village practically didn't exist. It was just eight
2 houses, and they were actually a fortified military feature.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: How did you supervise this woman? She used your
4 name. She was under your supervision. You were the commander. How is
5 that possible?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's the duty operations officer.
7 I'm not disputing it, but the actual term.
8 Secondly, I would like to say the torching continued. That's not
9 true. This is TT840 feature. The torching did not continue. What
10 happened was that the actual feature was being captured, but it's not a
11 village. Torching is not -- did not continue.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Did you later correct your report when you found
13 out that this was not a correct description of the facts?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Combat actions continued, so this
15 went to the Drina Corps command. Nobody had time to correct anything
16 there. Actually, few understand the feature of Paljevine. We did not go
17 on to that feature. It's a facility.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In that way you accepted that your superior
19 commands, the Drina Corps command, was informed in an incorrect way.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Was that according to your duties as the
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand the question.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You accepted that your superior command was
25 informed in a wrong way, and you didn't correct that. That was your
1 responsibility; right?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: I have a very factual question.
5 You said Gobelji was just eight houses. Did those eight houses
6 burn down or did they not?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please believe me when I say that I
8 don't remember.
9 JUDGE ORIE: So therefore, whatever you comments you give, you
10 say have you no recollection of what actually happened. You explained to
11 us that the whole report was wrong. At the same time, you say you don't
12 know what happened, which puzzles me.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am telling you that it was a
14 fortified military feature. I wasn't there personally. Therefore, now
15 it would be superfluous for me to say that it was burned or not burned,
16 if I hadn't been there myself.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And how would you then know that it was a
18 fortified position, all eight houses?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because I received a report from
20 the subordinate unit commander whose task was to liberate the feature of
21 Paljevine. There was a report from that feature of Paljevine that all
22 villages --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I'm talking about Gobelji. Not at this
24 moment about Paljevine. How did you know that Gobelji was a fortified
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I received a report from
2 subordinate officer.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Is that a written report?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it was a communication through
5 a radio device. The communication proceeded via radio devices.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any way you could suggest how we could
7 verify whether such a report was given to you if there's no written
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, only the commander of the
10 unit that was carrying out actions in that area. Nothing other than
12 JUDGE ORIE: And who was that?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember right now.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
15 MR. TIEGER:
16 Q. Witness, the 1991 census indicates that 218 Muslims lived in
17 Gobelji. Do you mind telling me how 218 people could live in eight
19 A. I have information that it was only eight houses. Gobelji is a
20 broader area. There are a number of villages there, but this was just
21 eight houses. You can check that. It was just eight houses. Smrsanj
22 over there is another village. But Gobelji has eight houses. According
23 to my information.
24 Q. General, you claim that this was all military necessity and not a
25 case of trying to burn down as many Muslim houses as possible so that the
1 Muslim population, which had been displaced, would not return to their
2 villages. So I presume that the -- that your commander, the commander of
3 the Drina Corps, would not have been exhorting his subordinates to burn
4 as many Turk houses as possible; right?
5 A. This was a purely military task and a purely military facility.
6 Q. Let's turn to P2192. This is an intercepted communication
7 involving Drina Corps Commander Zivanovic, and as we see toward the
8 bottom of the page, he instructs to hold tightly the positions and then
10 "Are the Turk [sic] houses burning?"
11 He is told:
12 "They are burning, they are burning."
13 And then it says:
14 "Way to go, as many as possible."
15 A. Well, I did not say what he said. I told you that I had a
16 military objective and that I had 120 casualties from that area. Udrc,
17 Paljevine. 120 civilians, women, fighters. Should we wait for more of
18 our people to be killed? No. My military objective was clear and I had
19 to resolve that.
20 Q. Similarly, General, I understand your assertion to be that the
21 burning of Muslim houses was not about destroying their habitations so
22 that the forceable displacement or cleansing of the Muslim population
23 would be permanent, but you say it was about combat. It had nothing to
24 do with who was living in those structures. So in that case --
25 A. Muslims weren't living in those buildings at all. They were
1 living in Cerska. They just had fortified buildings they were building.
2 They were bringing livestock there. They didn't live there at all, but I
3 have thousands of problems because from Udrc, Paljevine, and that feature
4 they kept attacking innocent villagers. These were villages that they
5 were attacking, so it was only natural. Now, what would a commander do?
6 Just watch all of that?
7 MR. TIEGER: Can we have P2194, please.
8 Q. This is a March 1993 report to the Drina Corps command by
9 Zvornik Brigade Commander Pandurevic, and in it as we see at the bottom
10 of his report, he offers up the proposal:
11 "We propose that houses should not be to torched when taking
12 control of Konjevic Polje, but that they should be inhabited by people
13 from Tuzla and other areas."
14 General, that's a reflection of the fact that torching of what
15 General Zivanovic exhorted as as many Turk houses as possible was about
16 who was living there and what would be achieved by burning them, and
17 General Pandurevic's suggestion that let's save those houses for the
18 Serbs instead of burning them so Muslims can't return. That's clear from
19 this document, isn't it, sir?
20 A. I absolutely support what Pandurevic said. And
21 General Zivanovic, I don't know in which context he said that. So my
22 objective is to keep whatever can be kept in order to move people in
23 because we had lots of refugees. Over 180.000 people went in that area.
24 We had lots of refugees from the Tuzla canton. And in Kalesija where I
25 was born, we preserved all those villages. And thank goodness, Muslims
1 returned and they live there to this day. Actually, my own village was
2 burned after Dayton, and yet again people have returned. My strategy, my
3 tactic was not torching. My strategy and tactic was to preserve my own
4 people and to enable them to live and work normally.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: After all that, sir, would you now please try to
6 answer the question put to you.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I am answering. Now, I don't
8 know specifically -- I mean, the gentleman asked me about Zivanovic's
9 speech, and through the communications, and also about what Pandurevic
10 said and --
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: The question to you was that -- it's a reflection
12 of the torching that General Zivanovic exhorted as as many Turks' houses
13 be as possible was about who was living there.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not receiving any
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'll start again. The question was --
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Zivanovic was not talking to
18 brigade commanders. He wasn't talking to me. He wasn't talking to
19 Vinko Pandurevic. He was talking to some communications man. I don't
20 know. So there was no influence in that respect.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could you please wait a minute and listen to the
23 The question was:
24 "General, that's a reflection of the ... torching ...
25 General Zivanovic exhorted as as many Turk houses as possible was about
1 who was living there and what would be achieved by burning them, and
2 General Pandurevic's suggestion that let's save those houses for the
3 Serbs instead of burning them so Muslims can't return. That's clear from
4 this document, isn't it, sir."
5 That was the question.
6 Your answer, actually, is to say: Yes, it is clear, or no it is
7 clear, or something else.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] General Zivanovic's conversation,
9 you see that the reflection was efficacious because Colonel Pandurevic is
10 saying the opposite: Let's protect houses. So that's what was done.
11 Now, what General Zivanovic meant and who he was talking to, it wasn't
12 certainly the brigade commanders. We, the brigade commanders, preserved
13 the houses --
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me stop you there.
15 [Microphone not activated] ... earlier explanation without
16 answering the question.
17 Yes, Mr. Tieger. You may proceed.
18 MR. TIEGER: Thank you very much, Your Honour, but I have no
19 additional questions for this witness. I would simply note that the
20 excerpted portions or pages from 65 ter 02380 have now been uploaded
21 under 65 ter 02380a, which has been assigned P7359. And we've uploaded
22 the speech in its entirety, it's two pages plus the cover page.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: P73 --
24 MR. TIEGER: 59.
25 JUDGE ORIE: P7359 is admitted into evidence. And the speech was
1 under the -- another number or is that the same?
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 MR. TIEGER: It was previously under 65 ter 02380 as part of a
4 longer document. Part of the 33rd Assembly Session.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, and we had reserved a number for that, I
6 think. My colleagues are always better in the administrative matters.
7 That's ...
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE ORIE: It's all the same. It's not two documents. It's
10 just one excerpt of one document. So the decision to admit has been
12 Witness, we'd like to see you back after 20 minutes when you'll
13 be re-examined by Mr. Stojanovic. At least, Mr. Stojanovic, if you have
14 questions for the witness. Yes, you are confirming that.
15 Witness, you may follow the usher.
16 [The witness stands down]
17 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at 20 minutes to 2.00.
18 --- Recess taken at 1.19 p.m.
19 --- On resuming at 1.41 p.m.
20 JUDGE ORIE: While we are waiting for the witness to enter the
21 courtroom, Mr. Stojanovic, you may have noticed that the witness has a
22 certain inclination to move away from the question. Would you please
23 strictly control that the witness remains within the scope of your
25 And could you give us any indication as to how much time you
1 would need?
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I shall do my best, Your Honour.
3 And I believe that we are going to finish by the end of the day. That is
4 how I concentrated my questions for the re-direct.
5 [The witness takes the stand]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that effort.
7 Mr. Andric, you'll now be re-examined by Mr. Stojanovic.
8 Carefully listen to his questions and try to answer those.
9 Please proceed.
10 Re-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
11 Q. [Interpretation] General, sir, we will try to concentrate and
12 finish by the end of our working today so that you don't have to stay
13 until tomorrow and that is why I'm going to ask you to concentrate as
14 much as possible.
15 So let us go through what you were trying to say and what was
16 said was that I should give you that opportunity.
17 First of all, in your view, what was the reason why the command
18 of the Drina Corps asked for combat and the liberation of the area of
20 A. Mr. Stojanovic, during the introductory part, I said that there
21 was unheard of suffering in Vlasenica, Milici, Sekovici, Zvornik,
22 Bratunac, Skelani, and I just referred to a short period from
23 mid-September up -- or actually, until the end of September. I mentioned
24 the victims. It was untenable. And the military and political
25 leadership of Birac went to the supreme commander and asked by way of an
1 ultimatum to resolve the issue of that area and to protect the Serb
2 people. The supreme commander ordered the Main Staff for that area to be
3 protected from constant attacks from the area of Cerska, Konjevic Polje,
4 primarily Udrc, and so on. So the military operation was organised and
5 we had to carry that out and I've already said why --
6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please
7 speak into the microphone. Thank you.
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Please speak a little slower.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But also come a bit closer to the microphone,
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. As the commanding officer of one of the units that took part that
14 this combat, did you have intelligence concerning the forces of the enemy
15 in that area?
16 A. The entire area of the 28th Division, about 10.000 armed
17 fighters. According to the last report from January 1995, in Srebrenica
18 there were about 35.000 inhabitants: 12.000 were military age, 10.000
19 were armed, 10.000 were local inhabitants in Srebrenica, and 10.000 from
20 the different urban areas who had come to Srebrenica. And there were
21 1500.000 [as interpreted] who had come from other areas. So about
22 35.000: 12.000 military age, 10.000 armed. So I'm referring to the
23 entire 28th Division.
24 Q. Did you have any information -- please let us focus now on 1993.
25 Did you have any information about the forces on the other side in the
1 broader area of Cerska?
2 A. What I know is the Kamenica 5th Detachment, then the
3 Cerska Detachment, Commander Hodzic who is from Vlasenica, then the
4 Kasaba Detachment. The detachment of Konjevic Polje.
5 In Cerska only there was brigade level, but Naser Oric sent his
6 reserve of 800 men.
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could I please call up
8 65 ter 09661.
9 Q. You can take a look, General. It's in front of you. That's a
10 document of the command of the Drina Corps. The date is the 8th of
11 December, 1992, and it is entitled: "Decision on the Liberation of
12 Pobudje, Konjevic Polje, and Cerska."
13 And in paragraph 1, the first part says that in the general
14 Srebrenica, Zepa, Cerska sectors, and the Kamenica area, towards Zvornik,
15 the enemy forces are rather strong and their number is increasing from
16 10.000 to 15.000 armed soldiers."
17 In paragraph 4 of this order, it says:
18 "In the Cerska area, the strength of enemy forces is up to 2.000
19 armed soldiers. They are deployed along the line and then the line is
21 This operative information and intelligence that the Drina Corps
22 had, does all of this reflect the strength of the enemy in Cerska in
23 December 1992 before the operation of spring 1993?
24 A. Absolutely. I've already said for Srebrenica only 10.000, and I
25 said in Cerska the equivalent was that of a brigade; that is to say, that
1 a brigade is up to 3.000 men.
2 Q. Thank you, General.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please slow down.
4 Please proceed.
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to
6 tender 09661 into evidence in this case.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document receives number D1037.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. General, there were quite a few questions that pertained to your
12 requests to have the question of the POW camp resolved. I wish to ask
13 you whether, with a view to resolving the problem of POWs, you addressed
14 the superior command - at that time, it was the Eastern Bosnian Corps -
15 with a request to have that question resolved?
16 A. Yes. On the basis of the request of the commander of the
17 battalion, the 4th Battalion, I sent several requests to the superior
18 command of the East Bosnian Corps. I remember the request from the 14th
19 of June, then the request of the 17th of June, where I unequivocally ask
20 that the prisoners be transferred to an appropriate area within the corps
21 command. Brigade level is not in charge of a camp and is not entitled to
22 a camp. It is a unit at corps level that can have a camp. So the
23 commander of the Main Staff, General Mladic, issued an order on the 12th
24 of June ordering the command of the East Bosnian Corps, but they did not
25 do that. And then again on the 17th of June, he ordered that this
1 question be resolved urgently and that POWs be relocated. And then after
2 that on the 1st of July 400 prisoners, on the basis of our order, were
3 transferred to the Batkovic camp.
4 Then there was that report, 640. So 400 were transferred to
5 Batkovic. Then on the 1st of July, also, 180 were released. Brought on
6 a bus, taken to Kladanj. In the camp only 60 were left. And on the 3rd,
7 my duty operations officer reported to the superior command that in the
8 camp there were 60 persons left and 30 civilians.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 A. Just a moment, please. That we would allow to go towards
11 Kladanj. And we said, "Please resolve the question of those prisoners as
12 well," and that is that figure of 640.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, the witness referred to a lot of
14 documents. If you have any of those documents, of course, we'd like to
15 see them, and in which way to present them as evidence is another
16 matter --
17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. We'll try to
18 go through these documents very fast.
19 Could we please have P192 in e-court. I'll try, Your Honours, to
20 identify and show as many of these documents as possible.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if they confirm what the witness tells us,
22 then if they're in evidence, then you could rely on those. But if you
23 have any additional questions for the witness, of course, we would --
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, we would hear them.
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. General, sir, would you take a look at the document that is in
3 front of you now. This is a document of the command of the Birac Brigade
4 dated the 14th of June, 1992, and you say, in paragraph 2:
5 "It is necessary to urgently resolve the issue of POW camps,
6 because in Vlasenica, we currently have 520," if I can see this right,
7 "prisoners. As for exchange, we have done nothing because there is no
8 interest on the other side."
9 Is that the document that you spoke of a moment ago?
10 A. This is the document of the 14th.
11 Q. Just a moment, please.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we have in e-court P186.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Stojanovic, you said: "'... we currently
14 have 520,' if I can see this right." It is not easy to read that, but in
15 the English translation it says in handwritten words "640" in
16 handwriting, prisoners.
17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think, Your Honour, that we do
18 have a problem with the translation, and will you see the next document
19 that is precisely what I'm going to ask about. And you can go back to
20 the B/C/S and you will see whether I -- actually, that's why I said if I
21 see this correctly.
22 Q. Now we're looking at in a new document, actually, P186, and the
23 date is the 17th of June, 1992. And yet again, from the command of the
24 Birac Brigade, a telegram is being send to the command of the
25 East Bosnia Corps, and you in paragraph 2, say:
1 "It is necessary to urgently resolve the issue of the POW camps
2 because in Vlasenica we currently have 640 prisoners."
3 Is this yet another one of these documents that you spoke of a
4 moment ago when I asked you about your requests for an urgent resolution
5 to the question of POWs?
6 A. Yes, that's it.
7 Q. Thank you. And now I'd like to ask that we take a look at a
8 document that is in e-court now.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Its 65 ter number is 1D05389.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, there was an addition in the lower
12 part which was SR, which was translated as "independently." The Chamber
13 has no idea what that means. If the witness could tell us.
14 That was after your name. It was the previous document.
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, if I may ask to look at the
16 previous document again, P186. P186.
17 Q. General, sir, you will see in the lower left-hand corner on
18 the -- in the B/C/S version it says: "Commander Major Andric,
19 Svetozar SR." What does that mean, SR? What does that mean?
20 A. "Svojerucno," "signed in his own hand."
21 Q. Thank you.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Then the translation should be revised.
23 Please proceed.
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we look at 65 ter 1D05389
25 again, please.
1 Q. General, sir, this is a document from the Bircani Brigade command
2 of the 2nd of July, 1992. The heading is "Interim Operations Report to
3 the Command of the East Bosnia Corps," where you say:
4 "On the 1st of July, 1992, around 1700 hours, through our area of
5 responsibility a column of vehicles passed with 180 refugees which was
6 unloaded at the exit of our area of responsibility in the sector of
7 S Luka, and the column proceeded on foot towards to Kladanj."
8 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Stojanovic please be asked to repeat
9 the rest of his question.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, could you -- after you had read the
11 content of the document, could you again phrase your question. The
12 interpreters didn't catch it.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could you please provide an English translation,
14 if you have any.
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I will. Your Honour,
16 unfortunately, we don't have it at this point. I would just like to
17 tender this document or ask that it be marked for identification because
18 it's a document that the witness referred to today.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Is this the document you referred to, Witness?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's the document that I referred
21 to. There is another document from the 30th.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Let's leave it to this.
23 Madam Registrar, the number would be.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the number would be D1038.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Marked for identification.
1 Please proceed.
2 Awaiting a translation.
3 MR. TIEGER: Ms. Stewart has a translation of that document,
4 Mr. President.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Then if it could be provided to the Defence and
6 uploaded together with the original.
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I thank you the Prosecutor for
8 his help.
9 Q. General, we'll pass quickly through the documents. The next
10 topic that I wanted to ask you about is something that was left
11 incomplete, I think.
12 A. I apologise. Did we show that document of the 3rd?
13 Q. No, there won't be any need for that because we have this
14 document already.
15 A. Because practically nobody was left in the camp.
16 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the beginning of
17 the question. The speakers are overlapping.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, could you re-start your question
19 because the beginning was not heard by the interpreters due to
20 overlapping speakers.
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.
22 Q. General, sir, could you please tell the Court, did you at any
23 point in time as the commander in the period of May 1992 have operational
24 authority and command over the TO units in the municipality of Zvornik?
25 A. I state with full responsibility that I never had any command
1 over Zvornik units. The order that was mentioned of the 28th and the one
2 of the 31st is something where you can see that the TO command was
3 carrying out my orders, and they were asked to be sent to their superior
4 in order to carry out co-ordinated actions in the Tuzla area. I state
5 that with full responsibility. Nothing else is true.
6 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the last
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Thank you very much. Could we please look at the document --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, while we're waiting for the document, the last
11 line of what the witness said was not caught by the interpreters.
12 However, a full answer is given already in the first line, so let's
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could we please look
15 at document P3739 in e-court, please.
16 Q. It's a document that you were shown in the cross-examination.
17 The date is the 6th of June, 1992. This is a document of the command of
18 the East Bosnia Corps, and the then-commander of that corps issues an
19 order in paragraph 1 that all current TO Staffs are to be renamed into
20 commands and units of the army of the Serbian Republic of
22 Among other ones, the staff and the units of the Zvornik TO are
23 referred here. You can see that under paragraph 2.
24 So, please, according to your best knowledge, could you please
25 tell the Trial Chamber at which point in time, if do you have such
1 information, did the Army of Republika Srpska begin to function according
2 to the system of unity of command in the Zvornik area?
3 A. Well, I'm not really competent to talk about Zvornik since that
4 was not part of my area of responsibility, but I will say that on the
5 whole the Supreme Commander, Mr. Karadzic, on the 21st, as the most
6 responsible person, sent an organisational order for the formation of the
7 Army of Republika Srpska. That was on the 21st.
8 At the same time, mobilisation was declared. The mobilisation
9 deadline was one month. And pursuant to this order, these staffs were to
10 become part of the Army of Republika Srpska. Mobilisation was supposed
11 to be carried out first and then units were to be formed; specifically,
12 in my area of responsibility, I definitely --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I stop you there. You were asked about
14 Zvornik, and you started saying that you are not competent to say
15 anything about Zvornik. That was the question. If there would be any
16 follow-up question, you'll hear that.
17 You referred to the 21st. Could you tell us, 21st of what month
18 and what year?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 21st of May. That was when the
20 Supreme Command issued the order.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The 21st of --
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1992. 1992.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. All right. Thank you. We will proceed slowly. And could you
1 please complete this sentence, and I'm going to put the question to you
3 When, according to you, if you know, did the Birac Brigade that
4 you headed was placed under the unity of command system under the overall
5 command of the VRS?
6 A. The Birac Brigade spread over seven municipality. With a
7 reduction of the area of responsibility, the brigade in its full capacity
8 in late 1992 when the Drina Corps was formed started to function in its
9 full capacity.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at document -- I
12 apologise, Your Honours, I have 65 ter number, if -- I don't know if it
13 has a P number. So it's 65 ter 32513.
14 Q. General, sir, that's the map that you wanted to say something
15 about at one point, and it was left for the re-direct. So I would like
16 us to look at that now.
17 THE REGISTRAR: For the record, Your Honours, it's Exhibit P7355.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
19 Mr. Stojanovic, it most likely has not escaped your attention
20 that the answer the witness gave to your last question was after he'd
21 [Realtime transcript read in error "I'd"] changed that question. But
22 let's leave it to that.
23 Please proceed.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: For the record, the right number is P7355.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if the record says that I changed the
1 question, no, it was the witness who first changed the question and then
2 answered his own question.
3 Please proceed.
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is now
5 document P7355, if I managed to note it down correctly.
6 Q. General, I would like you to look at this map that's in front of
7 you now. I would like to ask you this: What preceded the fighting
8 around Kalesija and which incidents prompted the fighting in and around
10 A. Thank you. In view of the fact that Kalesija was a Muslim
11 majority area, numbering a total of 41.000 inhabitants and of which 7.500
12 were Serbs. Serb villages in the depth of the municipality of Kalesija
13 such as Jeginov Luk and Dumica, Zolje Jajici, Sarska Basta [phoen],
14 Brezik were already in March attacked by the territorials, i.e., the
15 Muslims. Then a regular Yugoslav People's Army military column from the
16 4th Armoured Brigade was located at Dubrave. On the 4th of April --
17 actually, on the 7th of April, was blocked by paramilitary Muslim units
18 and their weapons were seized.
19 Then on the 17th of April, in Kalesija, the TO Staff commander,
20 Kavalic [phoen] -- actually Karavelic came to Kalesija, formed units, and
21 distributed weapons, 300 rifles.
22 Then on the 3rd of May, a purely Serb village in the Kalesija
23 municipality was attacked. This was in the urban area, purely Serbian
24 village. And then on the 7th of May, Jeginov Luk was attacked just like
25 it was in 1941. There were six armoured personnel carriers located
1 there, and then paramilitary formations, Muslim ones from the Kalesija
2 municipality, blocked the entire village, and they were asking for these
3 armoured personnel carriers. The leadership of the municipality was
4 forced to carry out a breakthrough in order to save the population.
5 And then on 8th of May along the Memici-Kalesija-Dumica axis,
6 Jeginov Luk also, fighting was conducted, Kalesija was liberated, and we
7 reached those Serb villages. Meaning, on the 10th of May, we controlled
9 On the 23rd of May, the Muslim forces took that back. And then
10 the Serb municipality of Osmaci was left behind, and that was when these
11 three villages were left that are mentioned, Like, Seher and
12 Drvenica [phoen]. In those three villages, 300 inhabitants were left
13 behind. And then we released the civilians through an order of mine. We
14 left 120 people in the school in Paprace, then we put them in the gym,
15 and then in the camp. And then luckily for me and luckily for those
16 people, those people were exchanged so that all of them were practically
17 exchanged. That is the real truth.
18 Q. Thank you. Since we don't have much time, General, please, a
19 question. This line, this front line and the line of separation in the
20 second half of 1992, 1993, until the end of the war, between the units of
21 your brigade and the units of the 2nd Corps of the B and H Army was the
22 result of set western borders of the Birac region or the results and
23 successes and failures of units in that area of the front?
24 A. That was a result of success. On the 23rd, this was taken from
25 us, placed under their control, and then our communications
1 Zvornik-Osmaci were cut. We fought to liberate that village,
2 practically, so that we could provide assistance to the civilian
3 population. We didn't have any communications. They had blocked our
4 roads. Therefore, that boundary was achieved in fighting and not in any
5 kind of political decision or any other type of decision.
6 Q. I'm going finish with this topic with this question: The Serb
7 villages that you mentioned in the Kalesija municipality, did they remain
8 behind because of the way the front was set?
9 A. The villages remained behind, the houses were destroyed, the
10 people were not there anymore. Unfortunately, those villages have now
11 been occupied by the Wahabis who are going to do away with all of us one
13 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Stojanovic please begin his question
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, could you re-start your question.
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. I really apologise
17 to the interpreters. I don't have time. So can we please look at
18 65 ter 32499. English page 36, B/C/S page 21.
19 Q. General, those are the questions that talk about your
20 relationship with the Branko Popovic, alias Pavlovic, so that I would
21 just like to clear that up too. You did give an answer the way it was
22 recorded in the transcript. I'm going to quote that part of it, and you
23 can follow along.
24 First of all, asked by the Presiding Judge, what private
25 professional contacts did you have, you answered:
1 "Well, it was friendly" --
2 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Stojanovic please indicate where he
3 is quoting from.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Could we see what you're quoting from,
5 Mr. Stojanovic.
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. In B/C/S, I'm
7 quoting the second and third line. In the B/C/S version. And I ask that
8 in English, I think, I think, it's the previous page. Just one page
9 before this. That was used by the Prosecutor, too. If I wrote this
10 right, it should be page 36 in English.
11 I think that was cut out and assigned its own number,
12 Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: I think that a selection was made which is supposed
14 to include specifically the portion that Mr. Tieger put to the witness,
15 and I think you intervened at that time and wanted to quote another part
16 but still of the same.
17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] It's the same page in B/C/S,
18 Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 Q. Now I'm going to continue in B/C/S and I think that the next page
22 is the one in English, and, again, the president of the chamber is asking
23 you on the same page in B/C/S:
24 "You just" -- and could I please have the next page in English.
25 We're just going to wait for the next page in English.
1 I think it's right now.
2 The presiding judge is asking you:
3 "You only -- you became friends having seen each other twice?"
4 And your answer is:
5 "Not friends but we talked as friends. We never -- I was not his
6 superior and he was not my subordinate. How would we talk? I cannot
7 talk as an officer, a superior and a subordinate."
8 So now I ask you -- there is a bit of a problem here with
9 semantics and the translation. Please do explain this and tell the
10 Trial Chamber in your own words how you would describe this relationship
11 with Mr. Pavlovic, from that period.
12 A. Well, certainly. A man cannot be friends with a man if he has
13 seen this other person only twice. Friendships are built over the years,
14 but it's a fact that we talked in a friendly way. He was not my
15 subordinate, I was not his superior, so in fact there was no reason for
16 us to be enemies.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic --
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: -- I'm with some concern, looking at the clock.
20 Also, in view of your earlier estimate in how much time you would use --
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I am finishing, Your Honour.
22 With a request to put just one more question, as I've been asked by
23 General Mladic. So I would like to conclude by doing that, by your
25 Q. Could you please say, General Andric, when you first had the
1 opportunity to see General Mladic?
2 A. It was my great fortune that it was on the 18th in Han Pijesak
3 when I arrived together with the political leadership from the area of
4 Birac, and they reported saying Major Andric is here, he wants to go home
5 or, rather, he wants to go back to his unit. He ordered -- he said
6 execute him. He did not have me executed. I stayed on.
7 Q. Please tell the Trial Chamber the 18th of which month and which
9 A. 18th of May, 1992.
10 Q. Mr. Andric, thank you, on behalf of the Defence of General Mladic
11 for the answers that you have provided.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have no further
13 questions of this witness. Thank you.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, this is again inappropriate behaviour,
15 waving from a distance, and it's just as inappropriate for you, Witness,
16 to respond to that. And, Mr. Mladic, if -- Mr. Lukic, if you have any
17 time ever, then explain to Mr. Mladic that if there's any question which
18 is not triggered by the cross-examination, then it should have been put
19 to the witness in examination-in-chief.
20 Mr. Tieger, do you have any further questions? And I'm looking
21 at the clock. I'm aware that if it's more than just one or two
22 questions, and then I already feel guilty to all the interpreters and all
23 those others who are assisting us that we would have to adjourn and
24 continue tomorrow.
25 MR. TIEGER: I will try to do something very quickly,
1 Mr. President, and see if it works.
2 Further cross-examination by Mr. Tieger:
3 Q. First of all, Witness, you commented a couple of times, I think
4 the last time at page 81 of this transcript, to the effect that by, I
5 think July or so, there were an extremely limited number -- I think you
6 said practically no one left at Susica camp. You're aware of the fact,
7 for example, that on the 20th of September there was a report to
8 Major Simic of the commander of the East Bosnia Corps that there were 132
9 Muslim prisoners still in Susica; 130 men, two women. Correct?
10 A. We didn't understand each other properly. Mr. Stojanovic did not
11 place the report here so that you can see it. On the 3rd is stays that
12 60 stayed in the camp, the one of the 3rd of July. The 3rd of July. 60
13 stayed back and 30 civilians were released. We didn't understand each
14 other well.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Well, apparently you are not aware that on the 20th
16 of September that there was report that there was still 132 Muslim
17 prisoners in Susica; 130 men, two women. You don't know that?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, it's in evidence, the report.
20 MR. TIEGER: It is evidence.
21 Q. You were confronted --
22 JUDGE ORIE: The witness doesn't know.
23 MR. TIEGER: All right. I'll leave it at that for these
25 Q. Witness, you made a point of telling us about the formidable
1 forces of the Muslims, a raid in eastern Bosnia in the latter part of
3 MR. TIEGER: If I could turn quickly to 65 ter 02364, page -- I
4 think 104 in the English, is that right, and 95 in the Serbian.
5 JUDGE ORIE: And this would be your last subject, Mr. Tieger?
6 MR. TIEGER: Yes, that's it.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
8 MR. TIEGER:
9 Q. Look to the bottom of the page in English, please. And you can
10 look in B/C/S -- toward the top of the page of 95, look for the numbers
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could the English be scrolled down, please.
13 MR. TIEGER:
14 Q. This is General Mladic addressing the Bosnian Serb Assembly and
16 "But please, I always tell people to think a bit, to put
17 themselves in the shoes of our enemy. I ask you how would any of our
18 military representatives, a representative of the authorities, a
19 representative of any party, feel if he were at that bridgehead there,
20 surrounded and with the river Sava behind his back. Or if he had to wait
21 50 or 100 hours for the ferry. What his morale be like? How would he
22 feel if he were surrounded as are the Muslim people and its armed
23 force" --
24 JUDGE ORIE: We have to move to the next page in English.
25 MR. TIEGER:
1 Q. "... surrounded as are the Muslim people and its armed force, if
2 it can be called that, in Cerska, in Srebrenica, waiting for the
3 transport to bring him 500-800 bullets."
4 That's a reflection, sir, of the understanding of the situation
5 at the time regarding the Muslim forces in Cerska and Srebrenica, as
6 General Mladic said, if it can be called that, and their plight; correct?
7 A. I just don't know how these forces managed to kill so many Serbs.
8 120.000 in 1992. The Patriotic League had 120.000 military conscripts,
9 according to the statement made by General Sefer Halilovic. Armed
11 MR. TIEGER: I tender that excerpt, Mr. President, from the
12 23rd Assembly.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And is there an excerpt that still should be
14 selected or is this an excerpt already?
15 MR. TIEGER: Yes, we still have to do that, Mr. President.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Then could a number be reserved for that.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the number would be P7362.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Andric, this concludes your evidence in this
20 case. I'd like to thank you very much for coming a long way to The Hague
21 and for having answered the questions that were put to you by the parties
22 and that were put to you by the Bench. I wish you a safe return home
24 You may follow the usher.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 [The witness withdrew]
2 JUDGE ORIE: I apologise to all those who have assisted us,
3 although I'm very glad that they were willing to continue. It's 14
4 minutes that we went beyond the time, but at least the witness could now
5 leave and return home again. It's highly appreciated.
6 We adjourn for the day, and we'll resume tomorrow, Thursday, the
7 30th of April, 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, I.
8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.29 p.m.,
9 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 30th day of
10 April, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.