Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 37992

 1                           Wednesday, 19 August 2015

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             No preliminaries were announced, but I'd like to briefly move

12     into private session.

13                           [Private session]

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Page 37993

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10                           [Open session]

11             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

13                           [The witness entered court]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Draskovic, I presume.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Good morning.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Draskovic, before you give evidence, the Rules

17     require that you make a solemn declaration.  The text of it is now handed

18     out to you.  May I invite to make that solemn declaration.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

20     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

21                           WITNESS:  GOJKO DRASKOVIC

22                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Please be seated, Mr. Draskovic.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Draskovic, you'll first be examined by


Page 37994

 1     Mr. Stojanovic.  You find Mr. Stojanovic to your left.  Mr. Stojanovic is

 2     counsel for Mr. Mladic.

 3             Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5                           Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.

 7        A.   Good morning.

 8        Q.   For the record, could you please slowly give us your name and

 9     surname.

10        A.   Gojko Draskovic.

11        Q.   Could you please tell the Trial Chamber where and when you were

12     born.

13        A.   I was born on the 25th of March, 1964 in the village of Arazi

14     [phoen], municipality of Kalinovik.

15        Q.   Mr. Draskovic, where did you live until the war broke out in

16     Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1992?

17        A.   I lived in SarajevoOzrenska Street, number 79, municipality of

18     Novo Sarajevo.

19        Q.   What were you doing before the war broke out in 1992?

20        A.   I had a small business.

21        Q.   Did you have any kind of military education, training, or perhaps

22     a military rank?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   Until the war broke out, were you politically active?

25        A.   No.  I was a member of the Serb Democratic Party.


Page 37995

 1        Q.   That year, 1992, did you receive call-up papers?  Did you become

 2     involved militarily?

 3        A.   The municipal staff of the Territorial Defence sent me call-up

 4     papers in April 1992.

 5        Q.   When you say the municipal staff of the Territorial Defence, what

 6     is this municipality from which you received these call-up papers?

 7        A.   Novo Sarajevo.

 8        Q.   What was this first military assignment of yours and practically

 9     what unit did you become a member of?

10        A.   My first military assignment was as follows.  Practically we who

11     lived in that street organised ourselves and guarded our homes until the

12     Army of Republika Srpska was formed.  After the Army of Republika Srpska

13     was formed, we remained in the same place.  I was a member of the

14     3rd Platoon of the 3rd Company of the 2nd Battalion of the 1st Sarajevo

15     Mechanized Brigade, Sarajevo-Romanija Corps of the Army of

16     Republika Srpska.

17        Q.   During these first months after the Army of Republika Srpska was

18     established, did you have any kind of position of leadership?  Were you

19     an officer or a soldier?

20        A.   At first I was a soldier, a member of the 3rd Platoon, and then

21     towards the end of 1992, I became commander of the 3rd Platoon of the

22     3rd Company and then towards the end of 1993, I became company commander.

23     And sometime around the end of the war when Dayton was signed I was

24     deputy battalion commander until I was demobilised.

25        Q.   When you say that you carried out the duty that you refer to,


Page 37996

 1     deputy battalion commander, when the peace agreement was signed, what are

 2     you referring to?

 3        A.   One battalion was formed out of two and there was a single

 4     command and there was this command of the battalion that tried to take

 5     care of all the paperwork for all the soldiers involved.

 6        Q.   When was it that you were practically demobilised and when did

 7     you stop being a member of the VRS?

 8        A.   I think around the middle of 1996.

 9        Q.   During the war, did you get any kind of military rank or

10     promotion?

11        A.   Yes, lieutenant.  And in 1994, I was in Banja Luka taking a

12     course for battalion commanders.

13        Q.   How long did this military training of yours go on in Banja Luka?

14        A.   About a month.  And over this short period of time, we managed to

15     learn what was important for commanding a battalion.

16        Q.   Do tell us:  During these war years, who were the commanders of

17     your battalion?

18        A.   First it was Captain Stojanovic, who was battalion commander; and

19     after him, Aleksandr Petrovic.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could you please repeat the first name you

21     mentioned.

22             THE WITNESS:  Okay.  Aleksandr Stojanovic -- no Aleksandr

23     Petrovic, sorry.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And the captain you mentioned before what was his

25     family name?


Page 37997

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stojanovic.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Could you tell the court who was commander of your brigade during

 5     those four years of war?

 6        A.   Colonel Veljko Stojanovic.

 7        Q.   It seems there were a lot of Stojanovics in your unit.

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Tell us, what was the defence area of your battalion, and by way

10     of clarification, because the Court had an opportunity to see these

11     documents what was the right flank of the defence or area of your

12     battalion?

13        A.   Vrbanja bridge, or, rather, the Metalija building I think that's

14     what was called.  It's been a long time so I have forgotten some things.

15     On the left side there was the barracks, Slavisa Vajner Cica.

16        Q.   Could you please tell the Court how big this is in terms of

17     metre, hundreds of metres or kilometres?

18        A.   Well, say, 3, 3 and a half kilometres.

19        Q.   This entire area, was it all the urban part of Sarajevo?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Tell us, within that zone, what was the defence area of your

22     company?  And do start from the right flank.

23        A.   The right flank of defence of my unit was the Zeljeznicar stadium

24     or that area, but Moravska and Ozrenska Street, that intersection where

25     these two streets cross.


Page 37998

 1        Q.   Your company, did it hold positions in part of Ozrenska Street?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Apart from your company were there other companies within your

 4     battalion that practically held positions in Ozrenska Street within their

 5     own area of defence?

 6        A.   There was also the 4th Company, the 5th Company, and the

 7     6th Company that later because there were so few people there, became

 8     attached to my unit.  That's probably one of the longest streets in

 9     Sarajevo and that's why three or four companies had to cover the area of

10     Ozrenska Street which was very densely populated, indeed.

11        Q.   Please don't hold this against us.  We're just waiting for the

12     interpretation so you don't think it's something else.  Obviously both of

13     us are fast speakers, so it takes time.

14             Tell us, during the war did you, with your unit - that is to say,

15     your company - did you have any changes of your initial position in the

16     area of defence?

17        A.   No.  Practically my company consisted of people who lived in that

18     street.  We held positions in front of our own homes and practically we

19     were defending that throughout the war, and that is where we were when

20     Dayton was signed.  There weren't any changes except perhaps for some

21     slight changes in the line but that was basically due to engineering

22     works rather than any kind of movement as such.

23        Q.   Your company, during those four years of war, did it receive any

24     orders that had to do with an offensive, in terms of breaking through

25     enemy positions?


Page 37999

 1        A.   Never.  Practically we were guarding our own homes.  That's where

 2     we lived.  Our line of defence was in front of our homes.  That's where

 3     we started the war and that's where we ended the war.

 4        Q.   Your company, how many people were there?  I understand that this

 5     is a category that changes but give us a rough idea.

 6        A.   200 to 250 up to 350 depending on the period involved.  There

 7     were a lot of combatants there who had been wounded.  Some of them were

 8     seriously wounded, some of them not so seriously, and then they could not

 9     be part of the unit anymore.

10        Q.   How many companies did your battalion have?

11        A.   Our battalion had six companies.  I've already said, the

12     6th Company, towards the end of the war, was attached to the 3rd Company

13     because of the small number of personnel involved.

14        Q.   Can you tell us for the sake of precision, if you can remember,

15     when did this reorganisation take place within the battalion; and when

16     was this company attached to the other companies within your battalion?

17        A.   I think that was in the second half of 1994.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, when I look at the 65 ter witness

19     summary, then I see that the gist of the evidence of this witness would

20     be that this witness and others were sniped at, that were working squads

21     and what kind of vehicles the other parties have.  The organisation of

22     his battalion and whether it changed halfway, yes or no, seems to have

23     little or no relevance for what apparently you want to elicit from this

24     witness.  So, therefore, I would -- before we go into such details, which

25     seem to be totally foreign to what you want to establish, I urge you to


Page 38000

 1     get to the points which, at least on the basis of the 65 ter summary, are

 2     the relevant ones.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] We'll get to that, Your Honour,

 5     just a few more questions by way of a introduction.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But we don't need the details as the -- not --

 7     I mean, we've listened to it now for some 15 minutes.  All details which,

 8     at least I'm unable to link meaningfully with what apparently is the

 9     purpose of the calling of this witness.  So try to get loose of what you

10     have prepared and come to the relevant points.

11             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honour.

12        Q.   Tell us, what was the intensity of fighting in Ozrenska Street

13     and in the area of defence of your company during those four years of war

14     in view of other parts of the Sarajevo theatre of war?

15        A.   Ozrenska Street was certainly one of the most difficult parts of

16     the Sarajevo theatre of war.  Practically every day we were exposed to

17     sniping, in particular.  Also, the terrain of Ozrenska Street is such

18     that it was hard to protect oneself, especially from snipers.

19     Practically the entire city in front of us and everybody building was a

20     location from which snipers could operate against Ozrenska.  If we look

21     at the composition of the company, the average age was 50.  People were

22     that age.  They had health problems, eyesight problem, hearing problems,

23     so great losses were sustained in Ozrenska Street as I've already said.

24     The battalion covered each and every part of Ozrenska Street, and

25     especially civilians who lived in Ozrenska Street, although there weren't


Page 38001

 1     that many of them, were particularly exposed to sniping, to sniper fire.

 2        Q.   Did you have enough fighters to perform the tasks assigned to

 3     your unit?

 4        A.   It depended.  As I said already, age was an issue because the

 5     average age was 50.  There were very few young people, which was

 6     particularly aggravating in an area such as Ozrenska Street.  There were

 7     never enough of people around and we always needed personnel at Ozrenska

 8     Street.  Whatever people we had, we organised them and put up resistance,

 9     defence.

10        Q.   What was the distance between the front lines of your company and

11     the opposing unit on the ABiH side?

12        A.   We were quite close.  At times, the distance was 30 metres or 50

13     metres or just a street in between the houses.  The lines were very

14     close.

15        Q.   From the positions you held where your defence line was, could

16     you observe the origin of sniping on the positions of your unit?

17        A.   Sir, we certainly could.  We observed and monitored the activity

18     of their snipers.  The most serious problem we had was a sniping nest at

19     the so-called Milana Pavkovica motel which was put up during the

20     Olympics.  It was very close to our positions and we were constantly

21     exposed to sniping from there.  There was also another building across

22     the street from the Zeljeznicar football club stadium and another

23     building at Pera Kosorica Square as well as many others.  Basically each

24     and every building was suited for sniping purposes but there were some

25     places where we pointed them out more frequently and we tried to


Page 38002

 1     neutralise such sniping nests.

 2        Q.   Did you have occasion, personally, to observe such sniping

 3     positions as the officer in the company?

 4        A.   Yes I was mostly engaged in observing and reconnoitring and I had

 5     to be present constantly as the commander together with my fighters.  I

 6     personally observed and detected sniping positions so as to caution our

 7     soldiers and the civilians moving along the Ozrenska Street, to tell them

 8     where danger lay.

 9        Q.   Please tell the Court if, during the war years, there were any

10     artillery -- there was any artillery fire from the ABiH against your

11     positions.

12        A.   Yes, certainly.  There was a war going on.  There was constant

13     firing on our positions.

14        Q.   As someone who had the level of military training you had, could

15     you estimate what kind of artillery weapon was used against your

16     positions?

17        A.   Most frequently they were the 60- and 82-millimetre mortars that

18     were mounted on some vehicles that were in motion and were difficult to

19     detect.  They could open fire from the Vaso Miskin Crni factory and the

20     health centre at Malta and some other facilities.  As I said, they were

21     mounted on vehicles.  They were mobile.  And their target -- or their aim

22     was probably to make detection more difficult.

23        Q.   As the company officer, did you personally observe the artillery

24     positions you described?

25        A.   Yes.  We observed constantly at the front line.  So as soon as


Page 38003

 1     our observers would notice anything, I would go there myself to observe

 2     where the fire was coming from.

 3        Q.   Given the fact that it was war time, I wanted to ask you whether

 4     your company, in its ranks, had artillery weapons?

 5        A.   Yes, we had 60-millimetre mortars.  And as part of the battalion

 6     there was a mortar platoon most likely which engaged the enemy.  We only

 7     had 60-millimetre mortars in our company.

 8        Q.   Can you tell the Court where the battalion mortars were placed?

 9        A.   Behind our line, in the Prljavo Brdo settlement.  To tell you the

10     truth, I don't know where they were exactly because there was no need for

11     me to move there.  I was at the lines held by my company and there was no

12     need for me to leave the company sector.

13        Q.   As the company commander, did you, at any point in time, receive

14     any kind of orders that would concern the use of artillery against the

15     positions of the ABiH?

16        A.   No.  We couldn't engage properly with our 60-millimetre mortar.

17     We used it more at night, to fire signal rockets mostly.  The people I

18     had in my company were around 50 years of age so their hearing and

19     eyesight were not so good anymore and whenever they heard or observed

20     anything we would fire signal rockets so that we could try and see

21     whether there was any moving on the other side in the company sector.

22        Q.   Did your company have trained sharpshooters and sniping weapons

23     as part of its arsenal?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   Please tell the Court, if you know, where in Sarajevo was


Page 38004

 1     Ivana Krndelja Street.  It was so named until the end of the war?

 2        A.   I do.

 3        Q.   Could you see that street from your company positions in part or

 4     as a whole, if at all?

 5        A.   Some parts were visible but most of it was not.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask one question in between.

 7             Is it your testimony that you never used your mortars to fire any

 8     rounds apart from just to illuminate at night, to be able to see?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said, we did have a

10     60-millimetre mortar in our company and we used it more at night to fire

11     signal rockets.  We did not have any trained crews, of course, and I saw

12     the mortar for the first time when the war began.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, did you ever fire projectiles not being

14     signal rockets but just to engage the other party?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course we did, since we had the

16     mortar, we used it to fire other projectiles.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you told us a minute ago that you couldn't

18     engage properly with your 60-millimetre mortars, that you used it more at

19     night to fire signal rockets mostly.  So -- but you used it to engage the

20     enemy but you often used it at night to fire signal rockets.  Is that

21     well understood?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not at night.  I said that we used

23     the mortar most frequently at night to fire signal rockets to illuminate

24     the positions held by our company to control the area.  Of course, at

25     times, in day-time, we also used other types of projectiles.


Page 38005

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Just mortar bombs if I understand you well, other

 2     projectiles.

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now did you do so at the instruction of your

 5     superiors?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  We did that when there was any

 7     pronounced sniping coming from the enemy side.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think we have to correct the transcript.  The

 9     previous answer, yes, was not given by counsel but by the witness.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So you -- was there a standing order that you

11     could use your artillery as you wished or as you considered right to do?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said already, we used it

13     exclusively when there was pronounced sniping against our positions.  In

14     that way, we tried to interfere with the activity of snipers in order to

15     protect our soldiers and civilians.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You only used it against snipers, to eliminate

17     sniper nests or sniper activity?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Because the sniping was our

19     biggest problem.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22        Q.   Mr. Draskovic, behind your forward positions - so behind your

23     back - was there an elevation held by the ABiH?

24        A.   Yes.  To our right side, there was Debelo Brdo and to our left

25     there was Mojmilo hill.


Page 38006

 1        Q.   From the positions at Debelo Brdo - if you know, given the fact

 2     that you hail from the area - could one see Ivana Krndelja Street in part

 3     or as a whole?

 4        A.   I think so because Debelo Brdo is quite high an elevation and I

 5     think from that position one can see the street.

 6        Q.   During the war years, did you - and I have in mind your company -

 7     have any POWs?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   Were civilians crossing the front lines in the area held by your

10     company?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Please tell the Court what was going on in that respect and what

13     kind of situation -- situations it entailed.

14        A.   Often, especially at night, there were people coming from the

15     area of Sarajevo, the part controlled by the ABiH.  Civilians were

16     crossing over to our side.  There were Serbs and others.  It is

17     well-known that a large number of Croats crossed our lines, I think, in

18     1994.  So it frequently happened that civilians came across the lines at

19     night to our side.

20        Q.   How did you treat such persons under the circumstances?

21        A.   The soldiers standing guard notified the company duty officer who

22     notified the battalion duty officer.  They were always taken over by the

23     battalion security officer for further processing.

24        Q.   During the wartime events, within your defence area, was there

25     any need for pioneering and fortification work at the positions held by


Page 38007

 1     your company?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Please describe for the Court what kind of pioneer work it

 4     engaged.  What kind of activity was it?

 5        A.   The layout of Ozrenska Street is such that it lies above the

 6     settlement of Grbavica making it suitable for sniping from -- by the

 7     enemy.  Therefore, we were forced to carry out many -- much fortification

 8     work.  Ozrenska Street is well-known for the number of its embankments.

 9     Otherwise one could not move up and down the street.  Where there was no

10     shelter, one couldn't move at all especially at day-time.  We asked the

11     battalion command to provide equipment for engineering work, and whenever

12     they could, they also assigned people to us from work detachments to come

13     and work on the fortification -- fortifying of our positions.  It didn't

14     happen often, but at times only.

15        Q.   To the best of your recollection, how frequently did that occur

16     during the war?  How often did your company have such needs?

17        A.   We had much need for that; but, unfortunately, they did not have

18     enough understanding for it.  Perhaps once or twice a month we would

19     receive personnel from the working platoons or civilian protection who

20     worked on fortifying our positions?

21        Q.   When you say people from the civilian protection and working

22     squads, please explain the Court how things worked.  Who were the people

23     who were engaged in such engineering work?

24        A.   Those were people who were not fit to carry arms.  They were

25     Bosniaks, Serbs.  We asked the battalion command for such people, and


Page 38008

 1     they would usually be accompanied by someone who would spend some time

 2     there with them.  They shared our food.  They shared our cigarettes.  So

 3     in terms of conditions, they were identical to ours.

 4             As the company commander, I frequently wished that the roles were

 5     reversed, that I could do their job.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could I ask you -- you said they would

 7     usually be accompanied by someone who would spend some time there with

 8     them.

 9             I mean, that's -- if you accompany someone, you spend time with

10     that person.  Could you tell us - it's rather vague - what was the role

11     of those accompanying persons.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the role of these persons was

13     primarily to safe-guard these people.  Because Ozrenska Street, along

14     which they were moving, was truly exposed to sniping, so for that reason,

15     there had to be someone who was familiar with the terrain or, rather, the

16     places where there was most sniper fire so the people could safely reach

17     where they were going.  And also for the sake of the safety of the person

18     who was guarding them, he stayed in that area where they worked and when

19     they would finish working, then they would return.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Did they have any role in observing whether

21     people would not evade doing what they were supposed to do, so as to be

22     sure that they did the job as they were instructed to do?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, once they would get to the

24     area of the company, they would be told roughly what was supposed to be

25     done, but no one ever insisted that it had to be completed on that day


Page 38009

 1     and no one of said how much should be done.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Were they free to say, Well, I'd rather not go there

 3     and do the job.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, probably people who had

 5     health problems could say that and they would certainly be spared on that

 6     day or during those days.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  But they were obliged to go there?  As -- as a

 8     principle.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, certainly, yes.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, was the percentage of Serbs and non-Serbs

11     the same as overall in the population?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that in the civilian

13     protection and work platoons there were Serbs and Muslims.  However, I

14     really don't know about percentages.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Mr. Draskovic, at that time of imminent threat of war and in some

18     periods of a state of war, was military call-up obligatory for every

19     military aged able-bodied man?

20        A.   Certainly.  I guess that's the way it is in any country.

21        Q.   Work obligation regarding those who were not fit for military

22     service, was that also obligatory, as the word itself says, in terms of

23     carrying out the state -- the duties assigned by the state?

24        A.   Yes.  Everybody had to contribute in some way to the defence of

25     the state.


Page 38010

 1        Q.   If somebody would refuse military call-up to report to a war-time

 2     unit, would such a person be subjected to a certain responsibility on the

 3     basis of the law?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And if somebody is not fit for military service for some reason,

 6     if a person would refuse to carry out work obligation as assigned by the

 7     state, would such a person be subject to responsibility or punishment?

 8        A.   Probably.

 9        Q.   At one point, you said that sometimes you wished to take the

10     place of these people, to switch positions.  What did you mean by that?

11        A.   Because I was exposed day and night to enemy fire.  I had to take

12     care of my fighters.  I had to take care of the civilian population.

13     Basically the burden of my company was on my shoulders.  And these people

14     who came, I had to think about whether food would be provided on time

15     because of the war operations.  Sometimes we wouldn't get food on time

16     and then that is why I often thought about them so that somebody else

17     would think of them and providing food for them, and their task was to

18     work on the lines primarily where it was safe, at least to a certain

19     degree.  At 3.00, when they finished their work obligation they go home

20     and I continue, day and night, to care about the fighters, what would

21     happen during the night, is whether somebody night be wounded, somebody

22     might be killed, and they didn't have to care about any of that.  That is

23     why I thought about that often that I'd like to be in civilian

24     protection, in the work platoon, rather than doing what it was that I was

25     doing.


Page 38011

 1        Q.   Were there situations within the mentioned engineering works that

 2     somebody -- some of the people from civilian protection or, rather, work

 3     obligation would fall victim to the sniper fire of Bosnia-Herzegovina or

 4     some gun-fire or artillery fire?

 5        A.   Well, yes, it is well-known that snipers would aim at anything

 6     that was moving.  So there were situations when members of the civilian

 7     protection and work platoons would get hit.  There were some situations

 8     when my soldiers, as they were getting these wounded people out, would

 9     get killed.  So we were in the same situation, the same position.

10        Q.   What about yourself?  During the years of war, did you lose any

11     family members due to sniper fire?

12        A.   Yes, my wife's father was hit in the forehead and killed by

13     sniper fire and also uncles, all of them in the area of Vrace, and all of

14     them, right there, at their homes.

15        Q.   Can you tell us the name of your father-in-law.

16        A.   Pandurevic, Nikola Milorad.

17        Q.   Was he a soldier or civilian at the time?

18        A.   He was a soldier.  Although he did not have one eye, he could

19     have been relieved of military obligation, but because of the people who

20     were standing guard there and who were carrying out their duty, he didn't

21     want to miss that.  He would often go to the guard post across the street

22     from his house, and he was probably noticed by a sniper and hit and

23     killed.

24        Q.   Tell us, if you have information or certain percentages, how many

25     people within your company during those years of war, how many people


Page 38012

 1     were killed in combat, how many were killed by sniping, by artillery

 2     fire, et cetera?

 3        A.   About 300 people were killed, civilians and combatants in

 4     Ozrenska Street.  I already said that this was a street where the theatre

 5     of war was the most difficult in terms of Sarajevo and exposed to sniper

 6     fire all the time, and other kinds of fire.

 7        Q.   Could you notice at any point in time from which sniper position

 8     this sniper fire came that specifically killed your father-in-law, for

 9     instance?

10        A.   Yes, from the motel of Milan Pavkovic that was built for the

11     Olympic games.  This was a huge fortification.  Most of the buildings

12     were made of concrete so this was convenient for snipers, and he was

13     certainly hit from that position.

14        Q.   When you say Motel Pavkovic, until the war was that a military or

15     civilian facility?

16        A.   It was a civilian facility that was built for the Olympics in

17     1984 and it hadn't been completed actually, and I don't think it exists

18     any longer.  It was totally destroyed, however, it was torn down after

19     the war.  Milan Pavkovic, otherwise, is a well-known painter and

20     photographer and he is from Pofalici otherwise, and probably for the

21     Olympics he got this favourable credit and that is how he started

22     building that.

23        Q.   Behind the Pavkovic motel were there residential buildings,

24     family homes, civilian buildings?  What kind of neighbourhood is that in

25     Sarajevo where the Pavkovic motel was?


Page 38013

 1        A.   Civilian, houses, densely populated.

 2        Q.   You also mentioned Trg Pera Kosorica, a square from which you

 3     noticed sniping fire came.  Until the war were there any military

 4     facilities there?

 5        A.   Never.

 6        Q.   Could you tell the Trial Chamber, since you lived there in that

 7     part of Sarajevo, what kind of buildings existed in that square, Pera

 8     Kosorica, and what was there purposes?

 9        A.   These were residential buildings.

10        Q.   In Ozrenska Street, in the defence area of your company, were

11     there any residential buildings in the area of your company or taller

12     buildings or businesses?

13        A.   No.  Just civilian buildings, individual family homes.

14        Q.   What happened to your house specifically in Ozrenska Street or,

15     rather, the house of your father-in-law in that street?

16        A.   Still there, but totally destroyed.  The walls are there.  The

17     roof and everything else was destroyed and unfortunately after the war.

18     Not that much during the war.  It was shelled two or three times before

19     the war, but it managed to survive all of that.

20        Q.   Tell us, your unit specifically, your battalion, was it fired at

21     from Mojmilo and Debelo Brdo, places that were held by the BH army?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Tell the Trial Chamber, to the best of your knowledge, how much

24     higher is Debelo Brdo in relation to the altitude of the area where your

25     company was?


Page 38014

 1        A.   Well, as the name itself says, Debelo Brdo, Brdo is a hill, it

 2     was much higher than Ozrenska Street.

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We did not understand the

 4     last sentence.  Could the witness please speak up.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness please repeat the last sentence.

 6     Because the interpreters could not hear you.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Debelo Brdo, as the name itself

 8     says, is an elevation --

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Brdo is hill.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And it is much higher than Ozrenska

11     Street.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Again, we cannot hear the

13     last part of the sentence.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Can you again repeat the last part of your sentence.

15     You said it's an elevation.  It's much higher than Ozrenska Street.  And

16     what did you say after that?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mojmilo Brdo is a bit higher than

18     Ozrenska Street.  Negligibly so.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic.

20             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I see the time, Your Honour.  I

21     know it's the right time to take the break.  If you allow me one

22     sentence.  I've just received information -- well, after the break, we

23     are going to provide you with a number that we've assigned to this

24     witness.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.


Page 38015

 1             First of all, Witness, I'd ask you to follow the usher.  We'll

 2     take a break for 20 minutes.

 3             Meanwhile, Mr. Stojanovic, are you on track, as far as time is

 4     concerned?

 5                           [The witness stands down]

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  And I think

 7     it's even going to be shorter because I have refrained from asking some

 8     of the questions in view of what you indicated to me, so I think I will

 9     need another 15 or 20 minutes.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll take the break first and we'll resume at

11     ten minutes to 11.00.

12                           --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

13                           --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic.

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we please go

16     into private session briefly.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  If you just want to give the number, then we don't

18     need to go to private session.

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  But perhaps

20     some of the witnesses whose names I am about to mention may request

21     protective measures.  That is why I believe it would be wise to move into

22     private session.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll do it at the end of this session.

24     Once -- no.  The witness may enter the courtroom.  We'll do it at the end

25     of the session.


Page 38016

 1             Could someone assist the usher in...

 2                           [The witness takes the stand]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  You may proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5        Q.   Mr. Draskovic, your last answer had to do with Mojmilo hill.  I

 6     wanted to ask you this:  What kind of infrastructure at Mojmilo hill?

 7     Was there a facility?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   The water supply facility for a part of Sarajevo, was it located

10     close to Ozrenska Street and Mojmilo hill?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   In that regard, I wanted to ask you who held the -- that part of

13     the water supply line?

14        A.   I think there were such facilities on both sides, ours and the

15     ABiH.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Was it possible for you and the civilians in Ozrenska

17     Street and that part of Sarajevo to use water if the part of Sarajevo

18     controlled by the Army of BiH did not have any water supply at the same

19     moment?

20        A.   No, it wasn't.

21        Q.   What about gas supply?  In terms of supplying it to the part

22     where you lived and the area where the area of defence of your company

23     was, could that part be supplied with gas without the part of Sarajevo

24     controlled by the ABiH being supplied at the same time?

25        A.   That was not possible.


Page 38017

 1        Q.   Let me conclude with the following topic.  Because of the

 2     intensity of sniping against the positions of your unit and the civilian

 3     parts of Ozrenska Street, was it possible to erect certain kind of

 4     fortification that would make visibility non-existent from the part held

 5     by the members of the army and the VRS?

 6        A.   Yes, we did have such embankments.  Without them --

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Stojanovic, I'm just concerned that you're

 8     testifying not the witness.  Instead of putting the question, you're

 9     telling the witness why you're putting the question and you're saying to

10     him "because of the intensity of the sniping" instead of the witness

11     telling us what he did and why he did it.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will try to do so.  Thank you

13     for your suggestion, Your Honour.

14        Q.   Witness, bearing in mind your previous answer, what kind of

15     obstacles were these?

16        A.   Well, we usually made them with bricks and mortar but in certain

17     parts, it would require a wall between four and five metres high which

18     was impossible to do.  That is why we simply put up some kind of

19     parapets, using blankets and other sorts of material, so as to block the

20     vision of the snipers in the direction of our soldiers and civilians.

21     Without such parapets, it would have been impossible for anyone to move

22     along Ozrenska Street.

23        Q.   Were the dominant buildings in the part of Sarajevo controlled by

24     the ABiH from which one could see even over such obstacles that you have

25     described?


Page 38018

 1        A.   Most apartment buildings could allow for that kind of visibility,

 2     especially the four tall high-rises in Pera Kosorica Street and the

 3     so-called Loris building across the stadium.  Also it was possible to do

 4     from some parts of Kupreska Street and my soldiers who were posted at the

 5     stadium sustained sniper rifle from that direction.  Basically most of

 6     any high-rise buildings in that part of Sarajevo were suitable for

 7     sniping.

 8        Q.   In terms of their use, pre-war use, were those buildings civilian

 9     or military?

10        A.   They were all civilian buildings.

11        Q.   During the war, if you could observe that, were civilians living

12     in those same buildings as well?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Mr. Draskovic, during the war years, did you, at any point in

15     time, receive as the company commander any kind of order from your

16     superior command to target civilian facilities from which there was no

17     engaging on the part of the ABiH?

18        A.   Never.

19        Q.   Did you ever find yourself in a situation that certain parts of

20     your positions were monitored by members of the international community,

21     such as UNPROFOR, the UN, or UNMO?

22        A.   Throughout the war, they were on Borivoje Jeftic Street, there

23     were UN observers there and we co-operated excellently with them.  Many

24     of them I still remember some even by first and last name.  I think there

25     was a Spanish man by the name of Jimenez, who was the head of mission at


Page 38019

 1     Grbavica.  He frequently arrived and we always worked together very well.

 2     We did not have any problems with any observation mission when it comes

 3     to my company.

 4        Q.   As the commander of the company did you, at any point in time,

 5     receive any kind of suggestion or objection by members of the observation

 6     missions, in terms of any military activity in Sarajevo or against

 7     Sarajevo.

 8        A.   No, never.

 9        Q.   When the Dayton Accords were signed, and bearing in mind that you

10     were still in military engagement for another six months, which entity,

11     the part of Sarajevo where the defence area of your company, had that

12     part?

13        A.   Before the Dayton Accords, it was held by the VRS, but the

14     Dayton Accord seized that part, so to speak, and it was made part of the

15     Federation.

16        Q.   Did the pre-war population return to that part of Sarajevo, and

17     these days who lives in that part of Sarajevo?

18        A.   In Vrace and Ozrenska Street, defended by my company, there were

19     Serb civilians.  They are no longer there.  It is mostly inhabited by

20     Bosniaks and others.

21        Q.   What happened with your property in Ozrenska Street?

22        A.   The house still exists.  It is devastated, for the most part.  It

23     was shelled on a few occasions in the war, but the walls are still there

24     and the foundations.

25        Q.   Mr. Draskovic, I'd like to thank you on behalf of Mr. Mladic's


Page 38020

 1     Defence team and these would be the questions I had of you.

 2        A.   Thank you.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

 4             Is the Prosecution ready to cross-examine the witness,

 5     Ms. Edgerton.

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  Good morning, Mr. Draskovic.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Draskovic, you will now be cross-examined by

 8     Ms. Edgerton, who apparently is ready to do so.  Ms. Edgerton is counsel

 9     for the Prosecution.

10             Please proceed.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

12                           Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton:

13        Q.   Can you understand me in your own language?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Great.  What I'd like to do as we start up is get you to just to

16     confirm a couple of details about your service with the Army of

17     Republika Srpska.

18             First, at temporary page 4 today, you talked about receiving your

19     call-up papers in April 1992.  Now to be perfectly clear, you received

20     those Territorial Defence call-up papers from the staff of the Serbian

21     municipality of Novo Sarajevo; right?

22        A.   Yes.  Novo Sarajevo municipality was ruled by the SDS after the

23     first pre-war multi-party elections.  So it was our municipality,

24     Novo Sarajevo.

25        Q.   And, again, just to get some history perfectly straight, your


Page 38021

 1     battalion, in fact, was formed as a unit of the VRS in May of 1992 - you

 2     said that - and until May of 1993, it was part of the 1st Romanija

 3     Brigade of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps; right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Now, you -- and it was only in May 1993 that it became part of

 6     the 1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade.  Also correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And before Stojanovic, who you talked as your battalion

 9     commander, your first battalion commander was actually Brane Pokalovic

10     [phoen]; right?

11        A.   Pokalovic.

12        Q.   And your battalion had two deputy commanders.  One was

13     Dragan Siljak and the other one was Milan Hrvacevic and Hrvacevic was

14     eventually replaced in 1995 by Bozo Tomic.  That's also correct; right?

15        A.   That is correct.

16        Q.   Now, as I understand your description of the line that your

17     company manned, That was a stretch of about 900 metres in Grbavica 2,

18     right?  It was about 900 metres long.

19        A.   Well, yes, approximately.

20        Q.   And your line was in the immediate vicinity of the police school

21     in Vrace.  That was one of your jobs, was to defend the police school;

22     right?

23        A.   Yes, it was in depth of our territory.

24        Q.   And that's where the headquarters of the RS MUP was for a period

25     of time; correct?


Page 38022

 1        A.   At the beginning, yes.

 2        Q.   And also in your vicinity, although not quite immediately, were

 3     the sky-scrapers at Soping where you had the headquarters of your

 4     battalion's 2nd Company; right?

 5        A.   Yes, of the 2nd Company.  Yes, of our battalion.

 6        Q.   All right.  Now to go on to the subject of some of the weapons

 7     that you talked about with my colleague, you mentioned your battalion's

 8     mortars on Prljavo Brdo, and I think you can confirm to me that these

 9     were 82-millimetre mortars, can't you?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And there were six of them; right?

12        A.   I really don't know.  I never visited the sector where the

13     mortars were.  I was a commander of an infantry company, spending my time

14     in company territory, save for the very few occasions when I went to

15     visit my family, when I left the defence lines of my company.

16        Q.   Fair enough.  Let's talk then about the 60-millimetre mortars

17     your company had.  You actually had at least two, didn't you?

18        A.   One.

19        Q.   And where was that?  Was that near the stadium or was it by your

20     company headquarters?  Or was it over by the police school?  Where was

21     it?

22        A.   It was up there where the 3rd Platoon of my company was, in the

23     part of Ozrenska Street which presented the most difficult part of the

24     front line held by my company.

25        Q.   So was that near your company headquarters?


Page 38023

 1        A.   Yes, the HQ of the company was in Banja Lucka Street across the

 2     street from the police school in the so-called Pajaco restaurant at the

 3     beginning of the Ozrenska Street and the mortar was placed where the

 4     command of the 3rd Platoon of my company was.

 5        Q.   So it never had to move much, did it, it was stationery

 6     effectively?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Is it correct also, isn't it, that you had a 76-millimetre

 9     mountain gun on Kupreska Street?

10        A.   We did not.

11        Q.   Now what about some APCs?  They wouldn't have necessarily been

12     your company's materiel.  They would have been manned by soldiers from

13     your brigade's mechanised battalion.  How many were in your area?

14        A.   It was a separate unit.  I really did not have any say in where

15     they were going or where they fired from.  There were usually two or

16     three in the company sector.

17        Q.   Right.  And one was on Ozrenska Street; right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And one was in the immediate vicinity of the police school?

20        A.   Perhaps at times, but I don't know of it being there all the

21     time.

22        Q.   And you had one above the stadium?

23        A.   No.  Perhaps occasionally to engage from there, but it wasn't

24     above the stadium all the time.

25        Q.   And what kind of guns did these APCs have on them?


Page 38024

 1        A.   They had 20- or 30-millimetre cannons.  I don't know what calibre

 2     precisely.  And they also probably had the Malyutka self-guiding

 3     missiles.  I don't know if it was all of them but some of them did have

 4     them.  It was not in my unit and there was no need for me to know what

 5     they had at their disposal.

 6        Q.   I understand.  Now, just in terms of your unit you also had some

 7     machine-gun, didn't you?

 8        A.   There must have been some machine-guns but I don't know how many.

 9     There was probably the so-called 84 machine-gun and perhaps the M52.

10        Q.   Now, the M84 shoots 7.62-millimetre bullets; right?

11        A.   Probably.  Really, I cannot remember.  It's been 20 years so I've

12     forgotten.  I was forced into being a soldier.  I don't have any military

13     training.  There was no need for me to remember the calibre and things

14     like that.

15        Q.   Fair enough.  But do you remember -- you must have had a couple

16     of machine-guns at the stadium; right?

17        A.   We did.  I don't know if there were a couple, but, at the

18     stadium, yes.

19        Q.   And one above the stadium in Sanac?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And you would have some in some of those private houses were

22     talking about on Ozrenska Street also; right?

23        A.   That's right.

24        Q.   Now, to go to sort of take a step back now from your company's

25     area of responsibility and to talk about some assets that were controlled


Page 38025

 1     by the brigade, the name mechanised brigade means that your brigade had

 2     mechanised units so we've already talked about the APCs.  They also had a

 3     tank unit, didn't they?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And they had some tanks in the area of Grbavica and Vrace; right?

 6        A.   That's right.

 7        Q.   So, tell me if I've got this right.  There was one that stayed

 8     pretty much around the outpatient clinic in Lenjinova Street?

 9        A.   Probably.  But that's not the area of responsibility of my

10     company so I don't know the deployment in Grbavica where different

11     weapons were.

12        Q.   Well, for sure you would know about the ones that were moving up

13     and down the transit road; right?

14        A.   I heard about some movements.  These are such strong engines that

15     anybody would have to hear that, but where they were, ultimately I didn't

16     make any decisions in terms of where these vehicles should go, so I'm

17     really not aware of any of these details.

18        Q.   No, I completely accept that you were outside of the

19     decision-making process in terms of the tanks.  I have no problem with

20     that.  I'm just asking about their locations.

21             There was -- do you remember there was one on Radnicka Street as

22     well; right?

23        A.   I remember.

24        Q.   Do you remember one on Bana Surbata Street?

25        A.   I cannot remember, especially now that I've confused some of


Page 38026

 1     these streets because before the war there was one name and then after

 2     the war there were other names, so probably I get confused with these

 3     street names.  But I don't remember this at any rate.

 4        Q.   No, that's fine.  And I'm always trying to use the old names so

 5     as to avoid any confusion because I recognise that that's kind of

 6     difficult to follow.

 7             Now, my colleague also asked you whether your company had trained

 8     sharpshooters and sniping weapons as part of its arsenal, and that was at

 9     temporary page 12 today.  But you can confirm -- you said no.  But you

10     could also confirm that your battalion had a unit of sharpshooters of

11     about 12 people, and they weren't attached to a particular company.  They

12     were under battalion command; right?

13        A.   Correct.

14        Q.   And their job was to operate throughout the battalion's area of

15     responsibility as needed and requested; right?

16        A.   Well, certainly they were within the battalion.  They got their

17     assignments through the battalion.  I mean, in the company, I did not

18     have a sniper.  And it's the battalion that was in charge of these

19     snipers.  So it is they who followed where it was that they were being

20     placed.

21        Q.   And they were placed sometimes in the vicinity of your company,

22     though, nevertheless.  They would go up to firing positions in the Soping

23     sky-scrapers; right?

24        A.   Probably.  I really don't have that information because they were

25     not duty-bound to report to me, and platoon commanders, probably they


Page 38027

 1     were sent by their commanders to certain areas, and that is what they

 2     did.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you're invited to tell us what you

 4     observed, so whether you're responsible, whether you had any position to

 5     give orders, that's a different matter.  So, therefore, the question also

 6     includes:  Did you see any of that from the Soping sky-scrapers,

 7     entering, being in the position, firing from there, did you ever see such

 8     a thing?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Soping sky-scrapers are not in

10     the territory of my company, so I really did not -- I mean, I've already

11     said there a few times.  I did not move out of the defence area of my

12     company.  I was commander of an infantry company.  I was with my

13     soldiers.  I have taken an oath here to tell the truth, the whole truth,

14     and nothing but the truth, and I have been acting accordingly.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Ever seen such activity at Ozrenska Street?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.

18             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.  Your indulgence for a moment.

19        Q.   Now, you talked about -- you talked about elevations to a certain

20     extent today in your testimony in-chief.  And you said -- my colleague

21     asked you:  "Were the dominant buildings on the part of Sarajevo," at

22     transcript page 26, "... controlled by the ABiH from which one could see

23     over such obstacles."

24             And in that context he was -- or you were referring to something

25     that would block sniping from the Bosnian side.  And you said:  "Most


Page 38028

 1     apartment buildings," referring to those buildings which were within

 2     Bosnian-held Sarajevo, "... and the so-called Loris building," you said

 3     "most apartment buildings could allow for that and the so-called Loris

 4     building across the stadium."

 5             But I just want to ask a question about elevations here.  The

 6     Loris building was immediately opposite the stadium at the same elevation

 7     of the stadium, and Ozrenska Street and Vrace where you were talking

 8     about are far away above the stadium and above the Loris building; isn't

 9     that right?  Because you're not trying to tell us that from the Loris

10     building you could see over the top of any barricades to block line of

11     sights on Ozrenska Street, are you?

12        A.   I did not understand your question.  The last part, that is.

13        Q.   Okay.  From the Loris building, you're not saying that anybody

14     could see over the top of any barricades that had been placed on Ozrenska

15     Street to block line of sight, are you?

16        A.   The Loris building was under the control of the Army of

17     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  It's opposite the stadium of Zeljeznicar, that

18     football club and, of course, of it a convenient spot for sniping.  How

19     much Ozrenska Street could be seen from there, I really cannot say.  I

20     was not in that position but rather on the other side.  We made different

21     kinds of shelters made of canvas, bricks, whatever else, so that we could

22     move more easily especially during the day, and night.

23        Q.   So, actually, when it comes to any comments about what potential

24     line of sight might be from Bosnian-held territory, you actually haven't

25     been there so you can't speak to line of sight at the time, can you?


Page 38029

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I know where the snipers were

 3     following.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] The question is not... the

 5     question is not specific.  It doesn't say which building and that creates

 6     confusion.  Does the Prosecutor mean the Loris building?

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.

 8             No, it's about from any point from Bosnian-held territory.

 9     That's what the question is about.  If it's not specific then it covers

10     that whole and whether that gives a good chance to an answer that makes

11     sense a different matter.  I leave it -- the objection is denied, but

12     that doesn't mean that a rephrasing of the question might not assist.

13             Ms. Edgerton.

14             MS. EDGERTON:  I'll actually just move on.  I'm quite fine with

15     that, Your Honours.

16        Q.   You outlined at the beginning of your evidence in-chief the area

17     of responsibility of your battalion.  So you were talking about the

18     situation through Grbavica 1 and further onto the east.  And because you

19     appear to be able to speak about the situation in your battalion's area

20     of responsibility and we've done that in some detail, I just want to ask

21     you about some firing positions in that area.  All right?

22             We've talked about Soping, and I want to move further to the

23     east.  You can confirm for us that your battalion had firing positions in

24     the sky-scrapers on what was Lenjinova Street and is now Grbavicka those

25     are the white ones.  4, 6, 6A, 8 and 14A.  You can confirm that; right.


Page 38030

 1        A.   That's the line of another company.  I mean, I was in the area of

 2     Grbavica very rarely expect for the part that was covered by my company.

 3     The Zeljeznicar stadium to the left and right, Ozrenska Street, Ozrenska

 4     Street rather was the area of responsibility of my company and that's

 5     where I spent most of my time.  As for those sky-scrapers, I really don't

 6     know those skyscrapers.  They were dominant, they were nearby, and near

 7     the lines of Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina --

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness please

 9     be asked to speak at a slower pace.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I tried to intervene already a couple of times.

11             Could you please slow down in speaking because otherwise some of

12     your words would be lost and we would regret that.

13             Please proceed.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.  I'm sorry.

15             MS. EDGERTON:

16        Q.   So could you -- actually, the witness wasn't given an opportunity

17     to finish his sentence.  Perhaps -- well, he was given an opportunity.

18     Perhaps he could repeat it.

19             You said "they were dominant, they were nearby and near the lines

20     of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina."  Would you like to finish your

21     sentence for us.

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] We did not receive a

23     interpretation of this last speech.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Last question, I take it.

25             Could you repeat your question, Ms. Edgerton.


Page 38031

 1             MS. EDGERTON:

 2        Q.   We were talking about firing positions and I asked you to confirm

 3     your battalion's firing positions in the sky-scrapers on what was

 4     Lenjinova Street and what's now Grbavicka Street and I gave you the

 5     building numbers the address numbers of those buildings.  Can you confirm

 6     those firing positions for us?

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Edgerton, I understood the last question to be

 8     whether the witness would finish his answer.  Because most of it is

 9     already on the record.

10             You said, as a latter part of your answer "they were dominant.

11     They were nearby and near the lines of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina."

12             What did you add or was that the end of your answer?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the Soping skyscrapers were

14     really dominant and they were close to the line of Army of

15     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  It was senseless to make sniper nests because

16     ordinary weapons could be used especially because it was dangerous.

17     Because these sky-scrapers were dominant and even for those who were

18     firing, that would constitute a danger.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

20             MS. EDGERTON:

21        Q.   So are you saying that there were no firing positions in Soping?

22        A.   Well, it had to be that way because there was a war going on, so

23     I really cannot say what are the dominant positions where the positions

24     were.  It was an area of another -- of another company so I had no need

25     to go to the area of another company because I was busy enough as it was


Page 38032

 1     in my own company.

 2        Q.   So your answer is you can't confirm one way or another.  Is that

 3     your answer?

 4        A.   I cannot confirm that because I never entered these sky-scrapers,

 5     not during the war, not before the war, not after the war.

 6        Q.   All right.  Now you also talked in your evidence in-chief about

 7     these mortars, 60- and 82-millimetre mobile mortars that you said were

 8     used by the Bosnian forces.  Now my question to you, since you raised it,

 9     is:  You fired back; right?  Because why else would you be raising this

10     evidence?  You talked about the mobile mortars, so you fired back at

11     them; right?

12        A.   That's only logical.

13        Q.   So you fired back at them with mortars; right?

14        A.   Well, when our observers would notice firing from their mortar,

15     especially if they would see where it was coming from, we'd inform the

16     battalion command and then through the mortar platoon, they would fire at

17     those positions.

18        Q.   So how long -- but you explained to us that these mobile mortars

19     are extremely difficult to see; right?  So how quickly would they move

20     before you were able to fire?

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we invite the witness to answer that

22     question, could I seek one clarification, especially in light of where

23     you said, "before you were able to fire."

24             Did I understand you well that you didn't use your own mortar but

25     that it was sent to the higher levels so that the mortar platoon would


Page 38033

 1     engage the mobile mortars from the ABiH side or did you use your own

 2     mortar to engage them?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We had a 60-millimetre mortar and

 4     its capacities are probably limited.  Of course, we could inform the

 5     battalion command and the battalion command would use the mortar platoon

 6     to fire at these positions where our observers had observed fire from.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  And you didn't use your own mortar for those

 8     purposes.  You reserved that to engaging sniper positions.  Is that well

 9     understood?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.  I was a bit uncertain about the

12     "you," whether that would be the mortar platoon or the platoon of which

13     the witnesses was a member.

14             Please proceed.

15             MS. EDGERTON:  Of course.

16        Q.   So how quickly would they move before the battalion would

17     respond, before the mortar unit would fire?  Because the process that

18     you'd have to go through involves some delay; right?

19        A.   That's right.  Well, our observers usually observed them at

20     night-time.  One would see the light, and that's how they could see it.

21     They were usually on vehicles, some vehicles of two tonnes.  These are

22     smaller vehicles and, of course, they were on vehicles so that they could

23     fire from different places fast.  We would let the battalion command know

24     and then, through the mortar platoon, they would act, and even if they

25     were not there, then we would let them know that we had seen them and


Page 38034

 1     that we would fire too.  We want to make it known that we have discovered

 2     their positions, although they would usually change their positions

 3     quickly.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Did you say "and that we would fire too" or that

 5     "they would fire too"?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We and they.  They fire, we see

 7     them.  After that, we fire.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 9             MS. EDGERTON:

10        Q.   So you let them know you see them by firing into the empty space

11     where they were; right?

12        A.   At that moment we don't know whether it's an empty space or

13     whether they are still there or whether they had moved.  Most often they

14     would move using that vehicle, but I've already said that we did that in

15     order to make it known that we have seen them and that therefore we would

16     fire at the location from which they had fired.

17        Q.   Okay.  So the point of firing at that location irrespective of

18     whether or not they were there was to do something like intimidate them

19     into stopping, I suppose; right?  Because they're almost impossible to

20     hit otherwise.

21        A.   Well, it was hard to hit them, but let's take it that way.  Our

22     mortars would, say, intimidate them, or warn them.

23        Q.   And just relating to how you used your mortars vis-ā-vis snipers

24     on Bosnian side, your evidence is that you would use your mortars against

25     residential buildings from which Bosnian forces were firing; correct?


Page 38035

 1     You would use your 60-millimetre mortars against residential buildings to

 2     eliminate the snipers.  Do I have that right?

 3        A.   Well, most often our 60-millimetre mortar would fire from the

 4     Pavkovic motel.  It was built using concrete.  It was huge.  And our

 5     fighters and the civilian population were affected by that, and, of

 6     course, we would fire in order to make it known to that sniper there that

 7     we had discovered him.  It is impossible to take that.  Whoever has not

 8     experienced this, is it so hard to describe the feeling of being under

 9     sniper fire.  You know that the Majmunovic family, people who lived

10     there, even their cow was hit.  The sniper shooter killed everyone,

11     including that cow, and that practically paralysed life in Ozrenska

12     Street, and we were trying to deal with it in everyone conceivable way.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Edgerton, could I ask your attention for page

14     43, lines 14 and 15 especially the word "from" which seems rather

15     illogical in this context.  And, second, Mr. Stojanovic did not take the

16     effort to locate the Pavkovic motel.  If you would do it for him and for

17     yourself, then at least the Chamber would know what we're talking about.

18             MS. EDGERTON:  I could make an effort to do that over the next

19     break, Your Honour, which I see by the clock is imminent.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Yes, I had in five minutes on my mind but if

21     you'd rather take the break now then ...

22             But could you already resolve the line where it says "well, most

23     often and I think it would mean our 60-millimetre mortar would fire from

24     the Pavkovic motel ..."

25             I take it it was firing at the Pavkovic motel.  Is that what you


Page 38036

 1     said, Witness, or did you say that it would fire from the Pavkovic motel?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the motel.  There were snipers

 3     active in the motel on the ABiH side.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then that has been clarified.

 5             Ms. Edgerton, would you like to fill the next three minutes or

 6     would you like to take the break now.

 7             MS. EDGERTON:  Oh, I can fill it, Your Honours and then come back

 8     to you on the question of the Pavkovic motel.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If you would continue for another three

10     minutes.

11             MS. EDGERTON:

12        Q.   You mentioned the Pavkovic motel earlier in your testimony but

13     you mentioned other locations including apartment buildings.  So my

14     question to you is that - and I'll direct you to that passage in your

15     testimony - it's at temporary page 26 -- pardon me.  You were referring

16     to the four tall high-rises in -- and I'm not sure which street you

17     indicated, "the so-called Loris building, parts of Kupreska Street and

18     high-rise buildings."  And my colleague asked you:

19             "In terms of their pre-war use, were those buildings civilian or

20     military? "

21             And these are the -- and you indicated they were all civilian

22     buildings.  And then my colleague said:  "During the war, if you can

23     observe that, were civilians living in those same buildings as well? "

24             And you said:  Yes.

25             So just so I get this completely straight.  So your evidence is


Page 38037

 1     to eliminate Bosnian snipers you fired mortars on buildings where

 2     civilians -- where you knew where civilians were living; right?

 3        A.   Let me clarify.  They engaged us the most from the Pavkovic motel

 4     and the high-rises at Pera Kosorica square and the Loris building in

 5     Kupreska Street where our civilians lived.  Their sniping activity was

 6     pronounced the most there.  Of course, wherever we could observe a sniper

 7     we tried to neutralised it, but it is difficult to target a building with

 8     a mortar, especially if one is targeting a sniping nest.  That is why we

 9     tried to neutralise the Pavkovic motel nest which was the closest to our

10     line and caused most trouble for us.  Of course, when they fired from the

11     high-rises and the Loris building, we did our utmost to use our

12     machine-guns and infantry weapons to neutralize or intimidate the

13     sharpshooters.  As I said it is difficult to target a building with a

14     mortar, especially if one is targeting a sniping location.

15        Q.   And you fired on the sky-scrapers in the Pero Kosoric square with

16     tanks as well; right?

17        A.   I did not.

18        Q.   Tanks positioned in Vrace and Grbavica operating throughout that

19     area fired on -- putting aside -- I've already said, I accept that you

20     have nothing to do with the chain of command involving the deployment of

21     those tanks.  But the tanks positioned in Vrace and Grbavica fired on the

22     skyscrapers at Pera Kosorica Square; right?

23        A.   They did.

24        Q.   Thank you.  I think I've used up my time.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you've used your three minutes.  Where are we


Page 38038

 1     in terms of timing --

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may?

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.  You may in a second.

 4             As far as timing is concerned, Ms. Edgerton.

 5             MS. EDGERTON:  I'll finish in advance of my estimate,

 6     Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  You wanted to say something, Witness, Mr. Draskovic.

 8             Witness -- yes.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just wanted to mention the tanks

10     engaging Vrace and the high-rises.  If someone is targeting you from a

11     high-rise, what else can you do than to defend yourself and try to

12     neutralize it?

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I think it's about the use of a tank which was the

14     main gist of the question, but you have answered the question so -- and

15     you have now added something.

16             You may follow the usher.  We'd like to see you back in 20

17     minutes.  Because we'll resume at ten minutes past midday.

18                           [The witness stands down]

19                           --- Recess taken at 11.53 a.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 12.12 p.m.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I see that all the confusion is not reflected

22     rightly on the transcript, where, when the Judges entered the courtroom,

23     were informed that the courtroom was not entirely ready yet.  That all is

24     now behind us.

25             We briefly move into private session.


Page 38039

 1                           [Private session]

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 38040

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16                           [Open session]

17             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

18                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

19                           [The witness takes the stand]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Edgerton, you may proceed.

21             MS. EDGERTON:  And just to update Your Honour, I wasn't, although

22     I was optimistic, able to find information about the location of the

23     Pavkovic motel and I believe my friend will take that up in his re-direct

24     examination.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  If that's the case, then we'll wait for that.


Page 38041

 1             Please proceed.

 2             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

 3        Q.   Now I have just two quick questions to finish up, Mr. Draskovic.

 4             First of all, when you -- when your units used their machine-guns

 5     and their infantry weapons, you're not saying they only used them at

 6     elevations.  They used them at ground-level targets as well.  They fired

 7     at ground-level targets as well; right?

 8        A.   You probably did not understand me well.  I did not say that we

 9     only targeted something at elevations but that the machine-guns were

10     placed at elevations from which they had command of the area on our side.

11        Q.   All right.  Then I have one last question for you.  And it's

12     because you alluded to the feeling of being under sniper fire and I just

13     want to ask you a couple of things about that.

14             You would agree with me, I think, from your experience that being

15     under sniper fire would make civilians feel scared and insecure, wouldn't

16     it?

17        A.   Certainly, both soldiers and civilians.  You know what it's like

18     if you are targeted by snipers 24 hours a day and you cannot move.  You

19     cannot be focussed enough around the clock to always be aware from which

20     direction, what sniper is active.

21        Q.   It would terrorise them; right?

22        A.   Certainly.

23        Q.   And that would be the case anywhere, wouldn't it?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Including for those civilians who were living in Bosnian-held


Page 38042

 1     Sarajevo; right?

 2        A.   Certainly.  The war caused damage and problems on both sides.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             MS. EDGERTON:  Nothing further, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Edgerton.

 6             Mr. Stojanovic, any questions in re-direct?

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] A few, Your Honour.

 8                           Re-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Draskovic, during cross-examination, at

10     page 43 of the temporary transcript, lines 8 and 9, you discussed the

11     targeting of the mobile targets.  What I want to ask you is this:  What

12     do you understand to be a mobile target, or, in other words, mobile

13     artillery weapons?

14        A.   As I said, there were smaller cargo vehicles where mortars were

15     mounted.  For the most part they were 82-millimetre calibre and engaged

16     the positions of the VRS.  They were mounted on vehicles which could

17     easily move and that is why we had difficulty detecting them.

18             As I said, when they were active at night, our observers could

19     see their location and would then inform the company and battalion

20     commands, and then we asked that our mortars be used to neutralize

21     theirs.

22        Q.   While trying to neutralize these mobile targets, these mobile

23     mortars, did you, at any point in time, target civilian targets with the

24     intention not to engage a mobile target but a civilian target?

25        A.   No, never.


Page 38043

 1        Q.   In your experience as the company commander, were there ever

 2     situations in which members of the ABiH army misused, so to speak, their

 3     civilian population by using civilian facilities to target the VRS?

 4        A.   Well, yes, certainly.  They opened fire from apartment buildings,

 5     thus abusing and placing in danger their civilian population because they

 6     must have expected that we would retaliate.

 7        Q.   Through such acts and conduct of the enemy side, could you

 8     observe a system they used to engage your side by misusing the civilian

 9     facilities?

10        A.   They mostly used civilian buildings in the area of my company and

11     in other areas from where the ABiH was active because on their side,

12     there had been no military buildings before the war, as there are none

13     now.  Thus, they were active from civilian buildings, and we returned

14     fire.

15        Q.   When it comes to the use of 60 -- the 60-millimetre mortar that

16     was in your company, was it fixed throughout the war or, depending on the

17     intensity of fighting, was there any need for you to move the mortar?

18        A.   It was fixed, as I said in Ozrenska Street in the area of the

19     3rd Platoon of the 3rd Company.  There were probably moments when it

20     needed to be -- moved to the areas of other companies.  But, as I said,

21     for the most part, it was in the area of the 3rd Platoon of the

22     3rd Company.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, another example of already giving

24     the reasons of why the witness is supposed to answer the question in a

25     certain way; it is the intensity of fighting which would cause it.  I


Page 38044

 1     leave it to that.  But please try to properly examine the witness.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   At page 50 of today's transcript, the temporary transcript that

 5     is, you discussed the concept of using sniping fire to terrorise on both

 6     sides.  In your view, the term "terror," what does it specifically

 7     entail, if you can clarify?

 8        A.   The very fact that we were defending our homes, our families, and

 9     that our positions were in front of our houses and that we had never been

10     given an order to carry out offensive operations, and, on the other said,

11     as I said a number of times, we had sniping around the clock, and a very

12     uncomfortable way of living under their fire because one could not be

13     certain at any point during the 24 hours, for example, even our guards

14     were not safe in their posts, although they had fortifications.  But

15     there was always some window of opportunity for the sharpshooters having

16     night-vision, hence, we were exposed to their fire round the clock and we

17     were unable to move.  That very fact that one is just waiting for your

18     wrong step at any point in time that can end your life makes you feel

19     very uncomfortable, and that is how this terror occurred on the side of

20     our soldiers and civilians.

21        Q.   As you could assess the war-time situation from your positions,

22     during the war years, who was better equipped in terms of sniping rifles

23     and who had better trained sharpshooters, the VRS or the ABiH?

24        A.   The advantage was on the ABiH side throughout the war.

25        Q.   Logically the next question follows --


Page 38045

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we first seek clarification of this question.

 2             What do you know about the number and the training of ABiH

 3     sharpshooters or snipers?  How many were there?  How many sniper rifles

 4     were used?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The very fact that they could cover

 6     our positions around the clock speaks for itself --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues]... no.  I'm asking

 8     you a question and I'd like to have an answer to my question.

 9             Do you know - if you don't know, that's an answer as well - how

10     many snipers were there, on the ABiH side.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not in a position to know.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  How many sniper rifles did they have?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm also not aware of that.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  How many sniper rifles did the Bosnian Serb army

15     have around Sarajevo.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really don't know.  I said that

17     we had a sniping squad in our platoon comprising 12 men.  I don't know if

18     each had their own rifle or if they used the same rifles in different

19     shifts --

20             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... were they all

21     the snipers around the city of Sarajevo?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When it comes to the VRS?  That

23     your question?

24             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... yes.  The whole

25     area around Sarajevo, let's say, following the -- any unit that was at


Page 38046

 1     the confrontation lines.  Or just behind.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  I don't know about the other

 3     units.  But in my battalion there were 12 people.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues] ...

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know if they were

 6     sharpshooters by training, but they were given sniping rifles.  I don't

 7     know how much knowledge they had about the weapons ...

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  My question was whether there are others apart from

 9     those 12 around Sarajevo.  If you don't know, tell us as well.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you agree with me that lack of factual

12     knowledge would make it very difficult for you to assess which was best

13     equipped and trained for sniping?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I would agree, but we would

15     have five casualties per day, and that shows that they had very well

16     trained people and good rifles.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  How many casualties were there on the other side per

18     day?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  How many of those five were soldiers; how many of

21     those five were civilians, a day?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It wasn't always five per day, but

23     when there were days like that, there would be two civilians, three

24     soldiers, or people from civilian protection or that is to say, people

25     from work platoons so ... it varied.


Page 38047

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 2             Mr. Stojanovic, please proceed, and try to keep the witness to

 3     the facts rather than to judgement or opinion.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honours,

 5     just a second, please, if I may consult with Mr. Mladic.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  You always may consult with Mr. Mladic, as long as

 7     it is done at an inaudible volume.

 8                           [Defence counsel confer]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic.

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Mr. Draskovic, since I was told that in line 25 on page 53 and

12     line 1, page 54, of LiveNote there was some dilemmas, I would like to

13     clarify certain matters with you.

14             In your company, was there, in terms of establishment, any part

15     of the sniper unit?

16        A.   Never in that company.

17        Q.   When you mentioned the platoon within which there were

18     sharpshooters, can you tell the Trial Chamber - if you know - who that

19     platoon belonged to, where the snipers were as well?

20        A.   I may have misspoken.  It was a squad of sharpshooters, 12

21     people.  They were within the 2nd Battalion.

22        Q.   Thank you.  That's what I wanted to clarify.

23             Let me just ask you something else.  Do you know whether, in

24     terms of establishment, in companies to your left and right, were there

25     any snipers that belonged to these companies?


Page 38048

 1        A.   As far as I know, no.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  And now I would like to take a look --

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if the map is not

 4     good enough then I'm going to use another document.

 5        Q.   But first actually let me ask you this:  You mentioned today, in

 6     direct and cross-examination, the Pavkovic motel.  Does that building

 7     exist today in Sarajevo at all?

 8        A.   It does not.  I passed through that area about ten days ago, and

 9     it's been completely torn down.  There's a building that was being built

10     there but nothing happened.  Since it had concrete walls and it was

11     seriously fortified it was used a lot for sniper nests.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Now I'm going to show you a map of a Sarajevo and my

13     request to you is to mark this building if you can, where the Pavkovic

14     motel was.  Because we discussed that during preparations.

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, P3, page 8.  Could

16     we please have that document in e-court, P3, page 8.  We'll try using

17     that first and maybe it's even going to be better in another document,

18     P123, but we'll see where we manage to get better organised.

19             So P3, page 8.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.  Loading pictures usually takes a bit

21     more time.

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please zoom in, the

23     central part of this photograph, F4.

24             MS. EDGERTON:  Can I just make a suggestion if we go to page 11,

25     I think --


Page 38049

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  We have F -- the F4 incident on another page more

 2     specifically.  If that would help, Mr. Stojanovic.

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm not sure, Your Honour.

 4     Because of the distance of the place where the Pavkovic motel was.  So

 5     I'm going to ask the witness first whether he can find his way in this

 6     photograph.  If not, then could we use P123.  Because there we also have

 7     the names of streets.  So perhaps it would be better for the witness.

 8     But if the witness can deal with this because we did work during proofing

 9     with this map, then maybe --

10        Q.   Well, Mr. Witness, can you find your way here now?

11        A.   I cannot.  Because there are no street names here.  It's unclear

12     to me.  The Pavkovic motel was near our positions so ...

13             JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues] ... witness --

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- I really cannot manage with this

15     map.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, do you see the stadium which is

17     approximately, as far as we understand, in the centre of this map?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I see the stadium.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Does that assist you also looking at where the river

20     Miljacka is?  Does this assist you in finding the location where the

21     Pavkovic, Milan Pavkovic motel has been?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To the left of the Zeljeznicar

23     football club stadium, but there are no street names here and my eyesight

24     is not good so that is perhaps why I cannot actually see that.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, without your leave


Page 38050

 1     without having it broadcast can we have P123.  Let's try that way.  P123.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  And -- yes, Ms. Edgerton.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  I would actually, given -- if we could go into

 4     private session for a moment, Your Honours, please.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

 6                           [Private session]

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22                           [Open session]

23             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

25             Can you find your bearings on this map, Witness?  You see in the


Page 38051

 1     centre Grbavica.  And do you see the Miljacka river?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This map is much better, clearer.

 3     I'm just trying to locate the motel now.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps the usher could assist.  Yes, let get back

 5     to the visible image again.

 6             Now this is not exactly the same as what we saw before.  Now we

 7     are back.  And we zoomed into the centre of this earlier.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Mr. Witness, do try, you see the Vrace memorial park now.  And

11     you had that cross there --

12        A.   I see Moravska, Jadranska --

13        Q.   The Grbavica stadium?

14        A.   Well, roughly it's in this area.  Somewhere around this location.

15     That's where the motel was.

16        Q.   Could you now mark that with a little circle?

17        A.   Well, roughly here.  Somewhere around here, yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Could -- has the witness a marker?  Because I don't

19     see any marking at this moment -- oh, yes, I now see where the marking

20     is.

21             Could you --

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do, and I can see it on the

23     screen in front of me.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I now do as well.

25             Witness, could you please put a -- clear letters PM for Pavkovic


Page 38052

 1     motel next to where you marked this map.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, roughly here, the little

 3     circle.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But ... well, that's -- the P is to the left

 5     of the marked circle; the M is to the right of it.  So it looks, more or

 6     less, like POM or ROM and that's where the witness marked the Pavkovic

 7     motel.

 8             You want to tender this, Mr. Stojanovic?

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  And I would

10     like to tender this document into evidence.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, no other markings needed?

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 28112a, with the marks receives exhibit

15     number D1201, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just check.  I think it had a small a to it

17     as well.  So it should be 28112a which has now received number D1201, as

18     marked by the witness.

19             Ms. Edgerton.

20             MS. EDGERTON:  With -- with the greatest respect, Your Honour,

21     and the transcript has it correctly, 28112a.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I added the 8 and the A were apparently confused.

23     Apologies for not getting this right immediately.  So I now repeat 28112a

24     has been assigned D1201 and is admitted into evidence.

25             Further questions, Mr. Stojanovic.


Page 38053

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours.  We would like

 2     to thank you and the witness.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Edgerton, anything further?

 4             MS. EDGERTON:  Just for about five minutes, Your Honours, if I

 5     may.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you may.

 7             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

 8                           Further cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton:

 9        Q.   Mr. Draskovic, you keep reaffirming - you've done it twice today

10     to my friend - that you never once received an order for any offensive

11     operations.  But, again, just so that we can set the record straight,

12     it's a fact, isn't it, that your units took control of the area of

13     Grbavica 1 and the Vrbanja bridge on the 4th of May, 1992 in offensive

14     operations; right?

15        A.   Well, certainly, that was the beginning of the war.  But I was

16     not in the area then.  I took my family away, so I was not there at the

17     time, and I cannot speak about that.

18        Q.   Well, were you in the area on the 5th of June, 1992 when your

19     units took control of Soping and Grbavica 2 in offensive operations?

20        A.   Yes, but my unit did not take part in these operations.

21        Q.   And were you in the area on 17 June 1992 when, let's say, your

22     brigade occupied Zlatiste, took control of Zlatiste in offensive

23     operations?

24        A.   Yes, I was in the area of my company.

25        Q.   Thank you.


Page 38054

 1             MS. EDGERTON:  Nothing further.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Edgerton.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Draskovic, this concludes your testimony.  I'd

 5     like to thank you very much for coming a long way to The Hague and for

 6     having answered all the questions that were put to you, either by the

 7     parties or by the Bench, and I wish you a safe return home again.

 8             You may follow the usher.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10                           [The witness withdrew]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Is the Defence ready to call its next witness or

12     would we first -- no.

13             Are you ready, Mr. Lukic.

14             MR. LUKIC:  We can make a break if it suits you better.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, it doesn't suit us specifically better,

16     because I think we're still 20 minutes off from the usual break time but

17     if you would prefer to take the break now and then to start the

18     examination of the next witness for the next 65 minutes as well.

19             MR. LUKIC:  We can continue now, then, Your Honour.  We would

20     call Ms. Biljana Stojkovic.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And she's waiting for a while, I take it, so,

22     therefore, could the witness be escorted in the courtroom.

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24                           [The witness entered court]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Ms. Stojkovic, I assume.  Before you


Page 38055

 1     give evidence, the Rules require that you make a solemn declaration, of

 2     which the text is now handed out to you.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 4     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 5                           WITNESS:  BILJANA STOJKOVIC

 6                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated.

 8             Ms. Stojkovic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Lukic.

 9     Mr. Lukic -- and you find him to your left.  In a second, he will be

10     standing.  Mr. Mladic is supposed not to greet witnesses.  Mr. Mladic, is

11     that clear?

12             You'll find Mr. Lukic to your left.  Mr. Lukic is counsel for

13     Mr. Mladic.

14             Please proceed.

15             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I would kindly ask the usher

16     to give Ms. Stojkovic's, her written statement.  Can you show it to the

17     Prosecution first.

18             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

19                           Examination by Mr. Lukic:

20        Q.   [Interpretation] Good day, Ms. Stojkovic.

21        A.   Good day.

22        Q.   Could you please slowly state your name and surname for the

23     record.

24        A.   My name is Biljana Stojkovic.

25        Q.   Since we speak the same language, I'm going to pause after your


Page 38056

 1     answers.  That does not mean that I'm not satisfied with the answer.

 2             At one point in time, did you give a statement to the members of

 3     General Mladic's Defence team?

 4        A.   Yes, twice.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Can we have on our screens 1D1750, please.

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Ms. Stojkovic, on the right-hand side of the

 7     screen before you, can you see a document?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Do you see a signature on the first page of that document?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Can you recognise the signature?

12        A.   Yes, it's my own signature.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now take a look at the last

15     page of this document.

16        Q.   On this page, Ms. Stojkovic, can you see a signature?

17        A.   Yes.  It is my signature.

18        Q.   Did you have an opportunity to review your statement before

19     testifying today?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   What was recorded in this statement, has it been recorded

22     correctly; that is to say, is it exactly what you said to the members of

23     General Mladic's Defence team?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   What is contained in the statement, to the best of your


Page 38057

 1     knowledge, is it correct and true?

 2        A.   It is correct and true, yes.

 3        Q.   If I were to put the same questions to you today, Ms. Stojkovic,

 4     would you give the same answers?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honours, we would offer this statement into

 8     evidence.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Melikian, no objections.

10             Madam Registrar.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D01750 receives exhibit number D1202,

12     Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

14             Please proceed.

15             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.  I will read short statement

16     summary for Ms. Stojkovic.

17             Ms. Stojkovic, Biljana, is a journalist living in Belgrade

18     Serbia.  She earned her Ph.D. degree in the field of development strategy

19     at the military academy of the university of defence.  Witness will

20     testify that on the 16th of July, 1995, she married Mr. Zarko Stojkovic

21     in Voznjesenska Church in Belgrade Serbia.  She will confirm that on

22     wedding ceremony, their godfathers were Ratko and Bosiljka Mladic as well

23     as they were present in Belgrade on this date.  On the same wedding day,

24     they were in restaurant Dva Ribara in Belgrade.  Ms. Stojkovic will

25     testify about the whereabouts of General Mladic on the 16th of July,


Page 38058

 1     1995.

 2             That was the short statement.  I will have only a few questions

 3     for Ms. Stojkovic.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Please put them to the witness, Mr. Lukic.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Ms. Stojkovic, we have your statement which is

 7     now in evidence.  I will just seek a few clarifications with you.

 8        A.   Please go ahead.

 9        Q.   You explained when General Mladic arrived at your place with his

10     wife.  You explained the time spent at the restaurant and in the church.

11     Throughout that time, could you observe that General Mladic had some

12     communications means with him and that he was using them, being military

13     staff you know what they look like?

14        A.   No, I was surprised myself.  He seemed to be fully focussed on

15     our wedding and the celebrations attached to it in Serbia, which means he

16     was fully dedicated to the people present, the procedure entailed by the

17     church ceremony, the time spent with the bride and groom at the

18     restaurant.  He seemed to be fully focussed on the time he spent with us

19     and our family.  He had no communication devices on him.

20        Q.   To the best of your knowledge, do you remember when

21     General Mladic and his wife left your wedding?

22        A.   Yes.  I think I pointed it out in my statement.  It was around

23     5.30.  I don't know whether it was a minute or two before or later, but

24     definitely around 5.30 or quarter to 6.00, that is when he left the

25     dining hall at the Dva Ribara restaurant where the ceremonial lunch took


Page 38059

 1     place.  He excused himself, citing official duties.  I stayed in the

 2     dining hall with my guests, while my husband escorted him to the car.

 3        Q.   Ms. Stojkovic, thank you.  This is all that General Mladic's

 4     Defence had for you at this moment.

 5        A.   Thank you as well.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

 7             Ms. Melikian, are you ready could cross-examine the witness?

 8             MS. MELIKIAN:  Yes, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I took it you wanted to rely upon our

10     ability to draw conclusions, that if the 17th of July is the day after

11     that it must have been the 16th, although it's found nowhere, I think, in

12     the statement that it all happened on the 16th.

13             And where the witness said that she already said in her statement

14     that it was 5.30, I tried to find that, but I was unable to immediately

15     find that.  But you left us some small puzzles but we're able to resolve

16     them.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah in paragraph 17 -- 11, yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  That's where we could conclude that it was all about

19     the 16th and there seems to be no dispute about that.  Ms. Melikian, I

20     take it, that the wedding took place on the 16th.

21             MS. MELIKIAN:  No, there's no dispute.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  But, basically, you start with times and places if

23     you take a statement.

24             Please proceed.

25                           Cross-examination by Ms. Melikian:


Page 38060

 1        Q.   Good afternoon, Ms. Stojkovic.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I have failed to introduce you.

 3             Ms. Melikian will now cross-examine you.  Ms. Melikian is counsel

 4     for the Prosecution, and you find her to your right, as you've seen her

 5     already.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             MS. MELIKIAN:

 8        Q.   Good afternoon.

 9             Ms. Stojkovic, you say in your statement at paragraphs 6 and 7

10     that you begin the morning at your apartment and then you proceed to the

11     church.  At about what time did you arrive at the church?

12        A.   I see there are some problems with certain terms, because I was

13     rather general in my statement and I can try and clarify the situation by

14     hour by hour.  I spend the night in my apartment --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  If you just answer the questions, then Ms. Melikian

16     will exactly ask you what she'd like to know.  And the first thing is:

17     At what time did you arrive at the church.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We left the apartment at 11.30.  At

19     12.00, we had the wedding ceremony.  At 2.00 p.m., we had lunch at the

20     Dva Ribara restaurant.

21             MS. MELIKIAN:

22        Q.   So I arrived at the restaurant at around 2.00?

23        A.   That is correct.

24        Q.   And was there a meal served at the restaurant?

25        A.   Yes, yes.  It takes a long time back in Serbia just a serving of


Page 38061

 1     the meals takes about two hours.  So we were there between 2.00 p.m. and

 2     6.00 p.m., at the restaurant.

 3        Q.   And I think you may have mentioned this earlier in your direct

 4     examination, but was Mr. Mladic, was he with you the whole time in the

 5     restaurant or ...

 6        A.   Absolutely, we were there all the time.  That is what I was

 7     trying to explain.  The first person to enter my apartment was the

 8     hairdresser, at around 8.00.  She was followed quarter of an hour later

 9     by the cameraman and then my husband's family arrived, followed by the

10     best man and that matron of honour.  [Overlapping speakers] ...

11             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  [Overlapping speakers] ... the question was only

13     about the time you spent at the restaurant.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You were asked only about the time in the

16     restaurant.  Could you answer that.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do you mean the time I spent with

18     the guests there or the time spent at the restaurant by the best man and

19     the matron of honour with us and the other guests?

20             JUDGE ORIE:  I think the question was about Mr. Mr. Mladic spent

21     all the time when you were in the restaurant with you, with the company

22     which was in the restaurant.

23             Was that the question, Ms. Melikian.

24             MS. MELIKIAN:  Yes.  Thank you.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He spent all that time with us and


Page 38062

 1     never left the restaurant, either he or his wife, between 2.00 p.m. and

 2     5.30.  He was in the restaurant throughout that time.

 3             MS. MELIKIAN:

 4        Q.   But he got up from the table during that time and maybe left the

 5     dining-room?  If you remember.

 6        A.   I would have to acquaint you with the layout of the restaurant.

 7     It was on the middle floor, below us was ground floor and behind the

 8     restaurant is the toilet linked to the restaurant so he did not even

 9     leave the middle floor, let alone the restaurant.

10        Q.   So he didn't get up from the table from when you arrived at the

11     restaurant at around 2.00 p.m. until when he left at 5.30, he didn't

12     leave the dining-room where you were?

13        A.   You understood me well.  He only got up when he was supposed to

14     give the toast.  I don't know whether you are familiar with the

15     significance of toasting in our culture.

16        Q.   I don't know that I am.  I guess I'm just -- to -- just to be

17     clear, did he ever -- you said he stood up to give a toast.  Did you ever

18     stand up to go to the restroom?

19        A.   Correct.  I really don't remember that he did.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  May I ask you one question.  When you were asked

21     about whether he ever got up from the table, your answer was about where

22     the restrooms are, where the toilets are.  That, in view of the question,

23     comes a bit as a surprise because it wasn't asked.  Do you consider it a

24     possibility that he went to the restrooms although you are convinced that

25     he didn't leave the floor on which the restaurant was?


Page 38063

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm wondering about the sense of

 2     this.  His wife was seated next to me and he was next to her.  So he was

 3     my second person to the left --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues] ... please answer

 5     my question.  My question is:  And I pointed --

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm trying to say this.  If he

 7     wanted to go to the toilet he must have passed next to me so I would have

 8     seen him.  The only hypothetical possibility that I did not see him was

 9     that we dance at our weddings and at some point perhaps we danced, we

10     waltzed or something of the sort.  If something goes on four hours I

11     cannot exclude that hypothetical possibility but as far as what I could

12     see, he did not go to the toilet.

13             Does that clarify the situation?

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, half it does.  Because you explain why you may

15     have missed it and at the same time you say you didn't see him go.

16     That's not fully consistent.  But let's leave it for that for the time

17     being.

18             Please proceed.

19             MS. MELIKIAN:  Thank you.

20        Q.   Moving on briefly to another topic, you mention that there were

21     wedding tapes of -- that your wedding was filmed and that these tapes

22     were subsequently stolen; is that correct?

23        A.   Fully correct.

24        Q.   I'm just curious.  You said in paragraph 11 that you -- of your

25     statement that you watched the videotapes the next day.


Page 38064

 1        A.   Mm-hm.

 2        Q.   Do you remember if these videotapes had a date and time stamp on

 3     them?

 4        A.   Yes, certainly.

 5        Q.   They did have a date and --

 6        A.   [No interpretation]

 7        Q.   I'm sorry, could you please repeat your answer.  I don't think it

 8     was interpreted.

 9        A.   Very well.  If we had the possibility to present the tape to the

10     Court designated as wedding 1 and wedding 2, it would have been the

11     strongest point to prove at what point in time, at what hour and minute

12     General Mladic was at the wedding table and how he spent his time at my

13     wedding.  It means that there was a time code on the tape in terms of

14     what took place when.

15        Q.   Thank you very much.

16        A.   Thank you.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I have a question for a clarification.

18             Again, about timing.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please go ahead.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes.  You said, this can be found on page 69,

21     line 6 and 7.  You said, "so we were there," that means in the

22     restaurant, "between 2.00 p.m. and 6.00."

23             Later, page 70, lines 6 and 7, you said:  He spent all the time

24     with us and never left the restaurant either he or his wife between 2.00

25     and 5.30.


Page 38065

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Therefore I would like to ask you:  Was he there

 3     until 6.00 or 5.30?  We have received two time-frames from you.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you for that question.  The

 5     situation is as follows.  All guests arrived at 2.00 p.m. and we entered

 6     the dining hall, including General Mladic and his wife.  They were the

 7     first guests to leave, leaving at 5.30.  Unless I also included my

 8     colleague, the cameraman who, having spent the first tape left at 5.00 to

 9     buy a new one.  But the guests left at different times following that.

10     My husband and I remained as the last ones.  For example, some guests for

11     their private obligations left around 6.00.  Some left around 8.00.

12     Let's say we left at around -- well, between 8.00 and 9.00 p.m.

13             The band left at around 8.00 because they play at a different

14     restaurant at Skadarlija.  Then my husband, my father-in-law, and a few

15     others took up instruments and sang and played for the guests.  We stayed

16     for another hour because we had rented the hall until, say, 8.00 or 9.00.

17     Then we went to our apartment where some of the younger guests remained

18     until early morning hours.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Does that explain it?

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I have received what you wanted to say.  That

22     means --

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  -- after 5.30 that day, you haven't seen

25     Mr. Mladic anymore?


Page 38066

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You are fully correct.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.

 5             You were asked whether Mr. Mladic had no communications devices

 6     on him and -- you said you had no communication devices on him.  May I

 7     take it that you meant to say that you didn't see any communication

 8     devices?  Because he may have had them somewhere you couldn't see.  So

 9     it's -- do I have to understand that you didn't see any of those?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We certainly did not search our

11     guests at the wedding.  I hope you understand.  What I did not see was

12     that he displayed any such device or used it.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  That's how I thought I would have to understand it

14     but I just wanted to be sure that that's what you meant.

15             I have no further questions.

16             Mr. Lukic, any questions triggered by the cross-examination.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Only question of video and then I would just continue

18     with pictures whether they were missing, whether some of them were

19     retrieved because I think we have some pictures in our evidence.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but you.

21             MR. LUKIC:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

22             JUDGE ORIE:  You have examined the witness in-chief, didn't you?

23     And would you now revisit matters which are ...

24             MR. LUKIC:  I thought if you are interested I could, but I don't

25     see it as necessary.


Page 38067

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Well ...

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  It's a question whether you would have -- want to

 4     put that before us and if that's the case, of course, the appropriate way

 5     of doing it would have been to do it during examination-in-chief --

 6             Mr. Mladic, no comment.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Mr. Stojkovic is coming after his wife and I can deal

 8     with it --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, of course.  Yes, and --

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  It doesn't arise from cross-examination --

12             MR. LUKIC:  I withdraw the question.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, no other questions either?

14             The Judges also have no further questions for you.  Therefore,

15     Ms. Stojkovic, I'd like to thank you very much for coming a long way to

16     The Hague and for having answered not that many but at least the

17     questions that you were put to you both by the parties and by the Bench.

18     I wish you a safe return home again.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you for your kindness and

20     professionalism.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  You may follow the usher.

22                           [The witness withdrew]

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  It was time for the break already a bit earlier, but

25     we'll take the break now and we'll resume at a quarter to 2.00.


Page 38068

 1                           --- Recess taken at 1.21 p.m.

 2                           --- On resuming at 1.45 p.m.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Is the Defence ready to call its next witness.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  We are calling Mr. Stojkovic,

 5     Zarko.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 7                           [The witness entered court]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Mr. Stojkovic.  Before you give

 9     evidence, the Rules require that you make a solemn declaration of which

10     the text is now handed out to you.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

12     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

13                           WITNESS:  ZARKO STOJKOVIC

14                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, please be seated, Mr.  Stojkovic.

16             Mr. Stojkovic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Lukic.  You'll

17     find Mr. Lukic to your left.  Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

18             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

20                           Examination by Mr. Lukic:

21        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Stojkovic.

22        A.   Good afternoon, Mr. Lukic.

23        Q.   I will pause after your answers so as to give the interpreters

24     time to interpret.

25             For the record, kindly state your first and last name.


Page 38069

 1        A.   Zarko Stojkovic.

 2        Q.   Mr. Stojkovic, did you at some point in time provide a statement

 3     to the members of General Mladic's Defence team?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have 1D1751 on our

 6     screens.

 7             [In English] Can I kindly ask the usher to provide Mr. Stojkovic

 8     with his written statement.

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Stojkovic, you have your statement in hard

10     copy, and you can see it on your right-hand side screen.  On the first

11     page, do you see a signature?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Do you recognise the signature?

14        A.   I do.

15        Q.   Whose signature is it?

16        A.   My own.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let us look at the last page of the

18     document.

19        Q.   Do you see a signature on this page as well?

20        A.   I do.

21        Q.   Do you recognise it?

22        A.   I do.

23        Q.   Whose signature is it?

24        A.   Also mine.

25        Q.   Mr. Stojkovic, did you have occasion to review your statement


Page 38070

 1     before today's testimony?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Does -- do the contents of the statement, as put on paper,

 4     correctly and fairly state what you mentioned to the members of

 5     General Mladic's Defence team?

 6        A.   They do.

 7        Q.   Is what is contained in the statement truthful and accurate?

 8        A.   Yes, it is.

 9        Q.   If I were to put the same questions today, would you provide

10     basically the same answers?

11        A.   In full.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I seek to tender Mr. Stojkovic's

14     statement into evidence.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.

16             Madam Registrar.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D01751 receives Exhibit D1203,

18     Your Honour.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  D1203 is admitted.

20             MR. LUKIC:  We would have some questions after we read short

21     summary.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please read it and then put the questions to

23     the witness.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25             Zarko Stojkovic was an officer in VJ.  He will testify that he


Page 38071

 1     married Biljana Stojkovic born Djurdjevic on 16 July 1995 in

 2     Voznjesenjska church in Belgrade.  He will confirm that their godfathers

 3     were Ratko and Bosiljka Mladic, as well as that they were present in

 4     Belgrade on this date.  On the same wedding day, they were in a

 5     restaurant, Dva Ribara, in Belgrade.

 6             And that was short statement summary.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Please put the questions to the witness you had on

 8     your mind --

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  -- Mr. Lukic.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

12        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Stojkovic, today we were able to hear that

13     the video recording of your wedding disappeared from your mother-in-law's

14     home.  What was the fate of the photographs from the wedding?

15        A.   The fate of the photographs was similar to the fate of the tapes,

16     meaning the part of the photographs that were to go to mother-in-law also

17     disappeared while we were out of the country on official business.  They

18     disappeared from the house in Krusevac.

19        Q.   Were some photographs preserved and, if so, where?  Who had them?

20     Were you able to get to some of them later on?

21        A.   When we returned to the country, some of the photographs were

22     still in some of the children's photo albums, but now they are gone too.

23        Q.   These were the photographs of your children or --

24        A.   These were the photographs of our best man and matron of honour

25     with our children and with us.


Page 38072

 1        Q.   Were you able to locate any wedding photographs after all?

 2        A.   There are a few, and they are also in my mother-in-law's home.

 3             As for the photographs that we had, we were never able to find

 4     them.

 5             I apologise.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If I may just ask a question.  How did the

 7     photographs in your possession disappear?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't precisely answer that

 9     question, given the fact that I was away and out of the country at the

10     time it took place.  Several times during our absence, my mother-in-law's

11     house was burglarised and there are also official records of that made by

12     the authorities.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I understand that the photos that were in your

14     mother-in-law's house disappeared and there were burglaries but you

15     talked about photographs in your possession and I'm asking about those

16     ones that were in your possession, how did they disappear not the ones at

17     your mother's place.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps there was a

19     misunderstanding.  I apologise and I will clarify some things.  All the

20     photographs, albums, and tapes that had to do with the wedding were left

21     in my mother-in-law's house during our absence from the country.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And what -- the photographs that you -- were in

23     your children's albums, where were they?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The albums were also handed over.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.


Page 38073

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   In paragraph 4 of your statement, you say that the wedding took

 3     place on the 16th of July, 1995.  We asked about your best man and matron

 4     of honour.  I wanted to briefly ask you whether you remember between what

 5     times were General Mladic and his wife Bosiljka in your company on 16th

 6     July, 1995 and at which locations?

 7        A.   Ratko and Bosiljka Mladic arrived on the 16th of July around

 8     10.00 at our apartment in Narodni Front Street in Belgrade.  They were

 9     with us until we left to the -- for the church which took place between

10     12.00 and 2.00.  After that, at the Dva Ribara restaurant, we continued

11     with a lunch and celebrations until 5.30 or 5.45 when I personally saw

12     them off.

13        Q.   In the apartment where you were in the street Narodni Front,

14     well, you're a military man, aren't you?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Did you see the general in that apartment around 10.00?  You say

17     that he and his wife arrived?  Did he use any communications equipment or

18     a telephone?

19        A.   No, he did not.  Neither one.

20        Q.   I have to ask although it may seem illogical, in church, or in

21     front of the church, so related to the church wedding itself, did the

22     general have any communications equipment and did he use any such thing?

23        A.   No.  As far as I noticed - and do allow me to say - that during

24     the wedding party itself that ensued, no communication equipment was

25     used, not a telephone either.


Page 38074

 1        Q.   You told us that you saw off your best man and that matron of

 2     honour after the wedding party.  How far did you see them off?

 3        A.   Yes, to the car.

 4        Q.   Did General Mladic drive that car or was it somebody else?

 5        A.   Somebody else.

 6        Q.   Did you wait for General Mladic and his wife to get into the car?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Did you have an opportunity to see the interior of the car?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   In that car, did you notice any communications equipment?

11        A.   I did not.

12        Q.   Mr. Stojkovic, this was brief.  Your statement has already been

13     admitted into evidence.  Thank you.  This is all that the Defence of

14     General Mladic had for you at this moment.  Thank you.

15        A.   Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Before I give an opportunity to cross-examine the

17     witness, Judge Fluegge would have one or more questions for the witness.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, Mr. Stojkovic.  You told us about the photo

19     albums given to your mother-in-law.  How many were they?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One for each child.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I don't know the number of your children.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.  Two.  Two albums.  Two

23     children.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Who put -- who compiled these photo albums?  Who

25     put these photos in the albums?


Page 38075

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I personally and my wife Biljana.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  From whom did you receive those photos?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These are photographs from family

 4     celebrations.  So these are our personal photographs.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Made by your own photo equipment.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Personally.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You, yourself, and your family members took these

 8     photos.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes.  Family members and

10     we.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I ask you these questions because I don't see any

12     reference is to photo albums and photos in your statement.  In your

13     statement, paragraph 8 and 9, you are talking about cassettes received

14     from cameraman, Radovan Popovic.

15             Can you explain that further?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Since the question was related only

17     to the wedding, it was cassettes that were related to the wedding.

18     However, this is personal, and it was not a subject that was a subject of

19     the questions.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You, in answering questions by the -- by

21     Mr. Lukic, you referred to photo albums.  And in your statement we have

22     received now in evidence, you are talking about cassettes from cameraman

23     Radovan Popovic.  I don't fully understand why, in the statement, you are

24     referring to cassettes and in your examination-in-chief you are referring

25     to photo albums with photographs, you explained, taken by you and family


Page 38076

 1     members.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in relation to this, I

 3     shall repeat what I said and shall expand the statement that I made since

 4     we were talking about cassettes all the time, because these cassettes

 5     were recorded on the day of the 16th of July; whereas, the albums pertain

 6     to a certain period of time of our family life and pictures that do not

 7     pertain to that period.  That is why there weren't any questions about

 8     cassettes and pictures, since, now, the question was about pictures with

 9     General Mladic, and we were talking about cassettes because they were

10     related to the day of the 16th of July, when our wedding took place.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I understand it better now.  And what was stolen

12     by the burglaries?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean what was stolen where?  My

14     mother-in-law's house?  Are we talking about the Krusevac case?  Is that

15     what you mean?  I do apologise.  But if you could kindly explain this to

16     me a bit.  Which location do you mean?

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The residence of your mother-in-law.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mm-hm.  After we took a look and

19     when this happened, we realised that the cassettes and pictures were

20     missing from family celebrations and from the wedding, those that were at

21     the house of my mother-in-law in Krusevac.

22             Now whether they were stolen, I personally did not state any such

23     thing, nor would I dare do that because I am not a competent organ.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you for answering these questions.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, are you ready to cross-examine the


Page 38077

 1     witness?

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojkovic, you'll now be cross-examined by

 4     Mr. McCloskey.  Mr. McCloskey is counsel for the Prosecution.

 5             Please proceed, although for not more than five minutes.

 6                           Cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey:

 7        Q.   Good afternoon, sir.

 8        A.   Good afternoon.

 9        Q.   We know you're a military man.  Are you retired or are in active

10     service or reserves?

11        A.   Active service.

12        Q.   And what's your current rank?

13        A.   Lieutenant-colonel.

14        Q.   All right.  Colonel, well, where were you born?

15        A.   In Uzicka Pozega in Serbia.

16        Q.   And where did you grow up?

17        A.   I grew up in Pozega until I finished elementary school and then I

18     left in order to continue my schooling.

19        Q.   And you were -- were you in the VJ, the -- from 1992 through

20     1995?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And did you participate in any of the wars that occurred,

23     beginning 1991, in Croatia or Bosnia or anywhere else?

24        A.   I did not participate in the war in Bosnia in that period.  In

25     the period of 1991 and 1992, I was carrying out duties within the


Page 38078

 1     Yugoslav People's Army, the JNA, securing the territory.

 2        Q.   Did you get to Vukovar?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   So were you ever present in any war theatre from 1991 through the

 5     end of the war in 1995?

 6        A.   It depends on what is meant by "war theatre" in that period.

 7     Could you please be more specific when putting that question to me?  Does

 8     it pertain to the region or what was it that you meant?

 9        Q.   Were you in Bosnia during the Bosnian war.

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   You --

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   You never went to Bosnia during the war period?

14        A.   Mm-hm.

15        Q.   We didn't get your short response --

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  It was just "for" and did

17     not continue the sentence.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:

20        Q.   Okay.  So you never even travelled to Bosnia between May 1992 and

21     December 1995?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   And did you assist the war effort for the VRS in any way?

24        A.   I find that question to be unclear.

25        Q.   What was your specialty in, let's say, 1995?


Page 38079

 1        A.   In 1995, I was in school in Belgrade, when I got married.  I

 2     arrived Belgrade in 1994 for my schooling.

 3        Q.   So what was your specialty in 1993 were you armour, infantry or

 4     what?

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, I see it's quarter past 2.00.

 6     Therefore, we'll adjourn for the day.

 7             Mr. Stojkovic, we'll have to adjourn for the day.  We'd like to

 8     see you back tomorrow morning at 9.30 but I hereby instruct you that you

 9     should not speak with anyone, and that includes your wife, or communicate

10     in any other way about your testimony.  Now, I think it would be --

11     you're not allowed to talk about your testimony.  Talking about the

12     testimony of your wife would come down to the same because it touches

13     upon the same subject matter, so you should refrain from any conversation

14     with whomever, including your wife, about the events on the 16th of July,

15     1995 or anything related to that.

16             Is that clear to you?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Fully.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'd like to see you back tomorrow morning,

19     9.30.  You may now follow the usher.

20                           [The witness stands down]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn for the day, and we'll resume tomorrow,

22     Thursday, the 20th of August, 9.30 in the morning, in this same

23     courtroom, I.

24                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.16 p.m.,

25                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 20th day of


Page 38080

 1                           August, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.

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