1 Monday, 31 August 2015
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
8 IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 While we're waiting for the witness to enter the courtroom,
11 Mr. Lukic, and I'm addressing lead counsel at this moment, the Chamber is
12 still in some uncertainty about the witnesses to that will appear this
13 week. Especially in view of the videolink, we'd like to know as soon as
14 possible what we could expect.
15 MR. LUKIC: Good morning, Your Honours. I think I can already
16 answer your question.
17 We have a witness who is coming tonight, but we will not be able
18 to put him on stand tomorrow morning since we have to see him first, so
19 probably we will have nobody for Tuesday but we will proceed on Wednesday
20 with the next witness.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and that will be Mr. Kenic [phoen].
22 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
23 [The witness takes the stand]
24 JUDGE ORIE: That's clear. That's the only thing you have.
25 Good morning, Mr. Tusevljak. Not very polite of us to continue
1 to deal with out matters when you entered the courtroom, but [Overlapping
2 speakers] ...
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, I'd like to remind you that
5 you're still bound by the solemn declaration that you've given at the
6 beginning of your testimony that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth
7 and nothing but the truth.
8 Mr. Lukic, you may continue. However, my time records tells me
9 that where you say you would need one and a half to two hours, that
10 you're four minutes off from two hours which is pretty close.
11 So, therefore, do your best. Please proceed.
12 MR. S. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 WITNESS: SIMO TUSEVLJAK [Resumed]
14 [Witness answered through interpreter]
15 Examination by Mr. S. Lukic: [Continued]
16 Q. [Interpretation] On Thursday, we stopped at video 1D6006C. Since
17 there was this small omission on my part, I would like to ask that the
18 video be played again, 1D06006C.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Previous translation continues] ... since we didn't
20 verify this -- the transcripts for this video, we should play it twice.
21 [Video-clip played]
22 MR. S. LUKIC: And the second time.
23 [Video-clip played]
24 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] It's been 12 days since the Muslim
25 offensive and the general emergency signal is continuously on. Everyday
1 the enemy fires several missiles indiscriminately on this urban part of
2 Srpsko Sarajevo and covers with machine-gun and sniper fire all the
3 streets, intersections and alleys within sight.
4 "Bogoljub Usorac: Snipers are the most dangerous, especially
5 those from the faculty over there. You cannot pass there. They are
6 constantly firing.
7 "Dragan Konic: We can't move one bit because of the snipers.
8 Shells are fired from all sides. Two days ago, a woman got killed here.
9 A child was wounded there. There, on that balcony, a child was wounded.
10 Also a woman was wounded there. That woman was seriously wounded and she
11 succumbed to the injury. Another man who was standing there when that
12 shell exploded. He was wounded there. You know, it was horrible.
13 Terrible what they do. They don't choose."
14 MR. S. LUKIC: We saw the last interlocutor. We see what he said
15 about how Grbavica was fired at. From the place where the other
16 interlocutor was standing in this interview, how far away are enemy front
17 lines from that particular place, the closest ones.
18 A. 200 to 300 metres roughly, not more than 300 metres.
19 Q. Which buildings are the most dominant in that part of enemy
20 territory facing Grbavica?
21 A. On the side where the Muslim forces were, it was the faculty of
22 mechanical engineering that was dominant and the Bristol hotel and the
23 building of the joint organs of the current Bosnia-Herzegovina or,
24 rather, the Executive Council of the then-Bosnia-Herzegovina.
25 Q. To the best of your knowledge and recollection, what was being
1 used to fire at the population of Grbavica?
2 A. According to the investigation that was carried out by the
3 Ministry of the Interior of Republika Srpska or, rather, the team that I
4 headed, in that period of time during 1992 up until the end of 1993, in
5 the area of Grbavica about 700 civilians were killed. They were either
6 killed from fire-arms - that is to say, infantry weapons - or they were
7 victims of shelling.
8 Q. Do you know from which buildings they attacked in this way that
9 you described to us?
10 A. Where it was possible to carry out an on-site investigation, a
11 particular process was carried out. That is to say, establishing the
12 place from which the firing had come. As I already mentioned these
13 facilities were the places from which Grbavica was being fired at most of
14 the time. I'm speaking about infantry weapons. And also Golubovo Brdo
15 was fired from as well. It was on the slopes of Mount Trebevic and
16 Grbavica could be seen without any obstacles. And also firing came from
17 the so-called Sanac, which is on the slopes of Mojmilo hill from where
18 Grbavica could also be seen clearly without a single obstacle in sight.
19 These are the locations from which most of the firing against Grbavica
20 took place.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please
23 move a bit away from the microphone. Thank you.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Could you move a tiny little bit away from the
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I've already said, this is the
2 urban part of the city of Sarajevo and it is mostly civilians that live
3 there. The lines were in front and behind there were civilians who lived
4 there, and they were a target of attacks very often. Because when the
5 distances are so small, speaking of infantry fire, the marksmen could
6 very clearly make a distinction between civilians and members of the
7 Army of Republika Srpska. When I talked to you about these casualties
8 over 700, in that period when, in Grbavica up until the end of 1993,
9 1.600 people were killed. But this number in terms of the difference in
10 respect of fatalities that is, these are members of the Army of
11 Republika Srpska so we didn't take that into account when we were trying
12 to calculate the number of civilian casualties.
13 Q. You said that from that distance a clear distinction could be
14 made between civilians and soldiers. Apart from civilians and soldiers,
15 who else were the victims of such attacks?
16 A. Well, very often children were the victims of these attacks. We
17 have many such examples of on-site investigations, video footage,
18 photographs where killed children can be seen. Children who were 10, 12,
19 13, so visually and in terms of their height, one could ascertain that
20 they were children, so the people who were doing the shooting could see
21 that as well.
22 MR. S. LUKIC: I would like call 65 ter 1D06007a. Since we
23 didn't verify the transcripts for this video with CLSS, we need to play
24 this video twice.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Edgerton, one question: We heard now
1 evidence that civilians on the Serbian side fell victim to sniping and
2 also to shelling. Is that in dispute that such victims fell?
3 MS. EDGERTON: Oh we've -- no, Your Honour. Of
4 course, [Overlapping speakers] ...
5 JUDGE ORIE: Why are we hearing evidence on matters which are not
6 in dispute, Mr. Lukic. I waited for a while, listened, and I never
7 gained the idea that the Prosecution says there is no sniping and no
8 shelling in Sarajevo and that, of course, victim, civilian victims fell
9 on the other side as well. Why do we have to hear it?
10 MR. S. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Our intention is to prove that
11 enemy soldiers from the territory controlled by the BH army were firing
12 from civilian buildings that did not have a military purpose but they
13 turned it into facilities with a military purpose and from there, they
14 were firing at civilian areas of Sarajevo that were under the control of
15 the Army of Republika Srpska.
16 Of course, they had to be neutralised by the army in order to
17 protect the population. We are trying that show that actually these
18 buildings were a legitimate military objective.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Whether they will be, yes or no, is another matter.
20 But then please focus on that. Please, then, focus in detail on where
21 this sniping incident, from where it was shot, et cetera, rather than
22 showing running children, which, of course, if you snipe at civilians,
23 people will start running. That's -- but let's then focus on what you
24 want to establish and then we'll further see.
25 Please proceed.
1 MR. S. LUKIC: We can play the video now.
2 [Video-clip played]
3 MR. S. LUKIC: I'm sorry, we have a wrong video.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think that you asked for 1D6007a.
5 MR. S. LUKIC: That's correct.
6 JUDGE ORIE: The video which is now showed is 1D6006a. So,
7 therefore, I don't know who put it on our screens, but perhaps look at
8 the one you intend to show.
9 [Video-clip played]
10 MR. S. LUKIC: And we can play it a second time.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I don't think that you need the beginning of
12 because there was no sound.
13 MR. S. LUKIC: Yes, you're right.
14 [Video-clip played]
15 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]
16 "Doctor: Today about 1615 hours a greatly injured patient named
17 Natasa Ucur born in 1985 was brought to the Kasindol hospital. She was
18 injured in Grbavica. During the admission at the surgery ward of the
19 Kasindol hospital we found serious head injuries. The bone structure of
20 the head and brain tissue were damaged. The injuries were lethal and the
21 girl passed away within several minutes. Immediately after this, some
22 five to six minutes later, another ambulance brought in Milica Lalovic
23 born in 1984 who was killed in Grbavica also by a sniper bullet. It
24 wasn't possible to help her, the girl was already dead. Innocent
25 children were being killed."
1 MR. S. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Mr. Tusevljak, could you tell us who carried out the on-site
4 JUDGE ORIE: Could you wait until the translation has been
5 finished. It has been by now.
6 MR. S. LUKIC: I'm sorry.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
8 MR. S. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Let me repeat: Who carried out the on-site investigations at the
10 place where these two little girls were lethally wounded?
11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We didn't hear the answer.
12 JUDGE ORIE: The interpreters have not caught your answer. Could
13 you repeat the answer.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The on-site investigation was
15 carried out by members of the crime prevention police of the public
16 security station of Sprsko Novo Sarajevo.
17 MR. S. LUKIC:
18 Q. What did you establish on that occasion?
19 A. Death was established for these two little girls. Also the place
20 from which the sniper bullet had come, the one that killed these two
21 girls, so it was clear that it had come from the positions where members
22 of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina were. The distance from these
23 positions to this place is also about 200 metres which means that with
24 the naked eye the person who was firing could see that these were
25 children. These two little girls were playing in front of their home,
1 and they were hit by fire from the other side. The fire came from a
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, now all what we have seen and all
4 questions you asked were not focussed on what you say you want to
5 establish. It was mainly focussed on something which was not dispute.
6 That people were shot at from the ABiH side, that victims were killed.
7 That's all not in dispute. You said it's the buildings which we had to
8 attack. I've not heard a word about from what buildings. I've not -- do
9 not know what the date of the incident was. I have not yet, which, of
10 course --
11 MR. S. LUKIC: That's my next question.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do you also have the report of the on-site
13 investigation? That would certainly greatly assist. Then you suddenly
14 get condensed a lot of information including source of fire, perhaps.
15 Instead of hearing after more than 20 years from a witness that the fire
16 came from the other side 200 metres away, which really does not assist us
18 Please proceed.
19 MR. S. LUKIC: Thank you.
20 Q. [Interpretation] You said that you established where the firing
21 had come from. Can you tell us from where?
22 A. The Ministry of Interior of Republika Srpska established that
23 fire came from the direction of the faculty of mechanical engineering.
24 About ten years earlier on, we sent an official report to the
25 Prosecutor's office of Bosnia-Herzegovina, team of the Ministry of
1 Interior of Republika Srpska headed by myself investigated the case once
2 again, and we submitted a report not only for this incident but also for
3 many, many other incidents, sniping, shelling. And this report was filed
4 in terms of direct responsibility of the perpetrators and command
5 responsibility as well. The commander of the 1st Corps of the Army of
6 Bosnia-Herzegovina is responsible, and other persons were responsible.
7 And by filing this report, we clearly indicated all the positions from
8 which the victims had been hit and it is precisely all of these positions
9 that --
10 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... witness, you
11 apparently are more or less responding to some questions I put to the
12 Defence. You're not answering the question at this moment. If there's
13 any material, we expect the Defence to present that if they want to have
14 this line of questions put. You don't have to elaborate on all that.
15 Mr. Lukic will take care of it. The only thing is usually if incidents
16 are considered to be relevant and important that this Chamber often is
17 provided with the reports of the on-site investigations which we have not
18 seen for the one which is now apparently the subject of examination.
19 Mr. Lukic, would you please keep control over your witness.
20 That's one.
21 And, second, when I earlier said four minutes, it may have been
22 six, but you went far beyond that so try to come with concrete materials
23 on matters which are in dispute.
24 Please proceed.
25 MR. S. LUKIC: Yes, thank you.
1 Q. [Interpretation] Could you tell us briefly do you remember the
2 year when this occurred?
3 A. I think that this occurred in 1995. I think it was the month of
4 March 1995.
5 Q. Do you know what the reaction of the Army of Republika Srpska was
6 to this incident?
7 A. I don't know. I mean, absolutely, this was not within my domain
8 to think about that at that moment, what the reaction of the Army of
9 Republika Srpska would be.
10 Q. Thank you. I'm going to move onto a different topic now.
11 Can you tell us what your occupation is today?
12 A. Already ten years within the Ministry of Interior of
13 Republika Srpska, I investigate war crimes.
14 Q. Whose crimes?
15 A. Within the Ministry of Interior of Republika Srpska, I'm in
16 charge of investigations of war crimes against Serbian people. That's
17 one of my priority tasks.
18 Q. What did you investigate? Which location.
19 A. The investigations carried out by the team of the Ministry of
20 Interior that I head were into the killings of Serbs in the city of
21 Sarajevo, in Srebrenica, crimes perpetrated by the Mujahed and by the
22 5th Corps, the Dretelj camp, Konjic. Those were the major cases.
23 Q. Thank you. We will dwell a little on Sarajevo.
24 Can you tell us how many camps there were in Sarajevo?
25 A. According to the research that we carried out, there were 126
1 camps or places where civilians were held unlawfully in Sarajevo. Which
2 means that there was absolutely no basis for their detention.
3 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Ms. Edgerton.
4 MS. EDGERTON: Had I been notified that this witness would give
5 any evidence relating to detention facilities or camps, I would have
6 prepared accordingly.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 65 ter summary, Mr. Lukic, could you tell us exactly where you
9 indicated that camps would be part of your -- and I don't have it here
10 with me but ...
11 MS. EDGERTON: And I can even assist because I do have it but
12 because I have a marked up copy, I'll just indicate what there is
13 relating to camps in the 65 ter summary. It says: "The witness also has
14 information about the setting up of prisoner camps for Serbs in Sarajevo
15 such as Viktor Bubanj barracks and the cental prison." That's two,
16 Your Honours, a far cry from 126.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that in itself to say that the witness had
18 knowledge about more camps and even a number that's not in itself
19 necessarily outside the scope of the 65 ter, but would you please then
20 focus on what you announced would be the subject of examination in terms
21 of camps, Mr. Lukic.
22 MR. S. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 Q. Can you tell us who gave you orders to investigate war crimes
24 against Serbs in Sarajevo?
25 A. At the Ministry of Interior of Republika Srpska, the minister and
1 the director of police ordered the establishment of a team to investigate
2 war crimes, and when that team was established, we established
3 co-operation with the prosecutor's office of Bosnia-Herzegovina and
4 district prosecutor's offices, and we investigated cases according to
5 instructions we received from prosecutor's offices, and we also carried
6 out pre-investigation inquiries into all the incidents that we learned
8 Q. What was the final result of your investigation?
9 A. First of all, we submitted to the prosecutor's office of
10 Bosnia-Herzegovina and prosecutor's offices of the district over 50 --
11 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is not sure about the number.
12 Could the witness please repeat.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could you repeat the number. You said you
14 submitted to the prosecutor's office of Bosnia and Herzegovina and
15 prosecutor's offices of the district over ... how many reports or cases
16 or files? How many?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For the city of Sarajevo, over 280
18 official reports or criminal complaints. I'm talking only about
19 Sarajevo. Only the crimes perpetrated in Sarajevo.
20 In these reports, we established that there were 3.300 victims,
21 civilian victims, on the territory of ten Sarajevo municipalities. Urban
23 MR. S. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would now like to call document
25 [In English] My fault. This is the 1D05495. That's the
1 correct -- that is the correct 65 ter number. Sorry, page 3 on B/C/S and
2 English ...
3 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Tusevljak, can you tell us what kind of list
4 is this.
5 A. This is a list that was made based on case files of Serbs killed
6 in Sarajevo and they are in the archive of the MUP in Sarajevo. The MUP
7 of Republika Srpska. This contains the names and years of birth of Serbs
8 killed in Sarajevo --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Often for the Prosecution, it's considered
10 better not to broadcast names in such documents and public documents. I
11 haven't heard anything about it, so we let you go. But if you would have
12 similar concerns, then, of course, you could ask for it to be -- not to
13 be broadcast, and if you are seeking admission later to have it under
15 I leave it in your hands. Please proceed.
16 MR. S. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. We don't have a
17 problem with this document being released.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
19 MR. S. LUKIC: Thank you.
20 Q. [Interpretation] What did you use as a source of information for
21 this list?
22 A. With the leave of the Court, I would like to explain how we came
23 to establish case files, not this list.
24 Q. You may go on.
25 A. When the commission was established by the international
1 community, and it was established by the council of ministers of
2 Bosnia-Herzegovina and the parliamentary Assembly. That commission was
3 supposed to investigate the killing of Serb, Croats, Bosniaks and Jews
4 and others on the territory of ten Sarajevo municipalities. Then a MUP
5 team of Republika Srpska joined this commission. We worked following a
6 principle that for every person killed, an individual case file would be
7 opened, and in addition to the name, date of birth, and father's name, it
8 was required to accompany every name with a JM -- with a unique
9 identification number which existed for every citizen of Yugoslavia.
10 Also the birth certificate, the death certificate, and then in every case
11 file, we included copies of all the relevant evidence and indicators that
12 the given person was killed and in which way.
13 So that means the on-site investigation, if any, the photo
14 documentation, video footage, if any, statements of surviving witnesses,
15 statements from family, and all the other evidence that indicated that a
16 crime was perpetrated and also the official report describing the given
17 incident that had been submitted to the prosecutor's office. All this
18 was done not only in writing but also in electronic form. Experts of the
19 Ministry of Interior developed software, so when you type in the name and
20 surname of the victim, you would get the registration number for that
21 victim and if you only have a new report and you don't have that name in
22 the register, then the programme automatically assigned a number to the
23 case. All these case files are still with us. We still have them. And
24 the Office of the Prosecutor of this Tribunal has reviewed them. And
25 when we showed them how we did this work in Sarajevo, they congratulated
1 us, and we still believe today that it was the only way to establish the
2 actual number of civilian victims, not only in the territory of the ten
3 Sarajevo municipalities, but also in all of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Because,
4 in this way, every possibility for manipulation is eliminated. Every
5 citizen had their unique identification number and birth certificate and
6 their families had received death certificates in order to exercise their
7 rights and receive benefits.
8 Q. When you say "all civilians," which civilians do you mean?
9 A. When I say "all civilian," I mean civilians of all ethnicities
10 who were killed in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Bosniaks, Serbs, Croats, Jews,
11 all the other citizens.
12 Q. What did you use as a source of information about missing persons
13 in this list?
14 A. Speaking of missing persons, we used, first of all, reports to
15 the ICRC and international organisations dealing with missing persons,
16 reports from families looking for their near and dear. We used, as I
17 said, all court material that was available, all court papers that were
18 written during the investigation, photo documentation, video footage,
19 records of exhumations, crime-scene reports, all the indicators that a
20 given person is, indeed -- was, indeed, a victim of the war, a civilian
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's all -- if I understand you well, this
23 list is exclusively about civilians. Is that well understood?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the list contains the names of
25 civilians only. We did not investigate cases of deaths of combatants of
1 Republika Srpska. We only dealt with civilian victims.
2 JUDGE ORIE: What I have difficulties to understand is that this
3 list as is shown to us, a lot of information which you would expect to be
4 available is just not on that list, such as, sometimes, even the year of
5 birth for many, many victims are not available. And do you have any
6 explanation as to the -- how this information which must be available,
7 why it's not on that list? For example, we could look at -- just for an
8 example, could we look at the last page. That's page 214 of this list.
9 Could we have a look at the last page. Could it be enlarged
10 slightly. For both version, the last page.
11 And perhaps for the B/C/S, the semi-last page. One page back.
12 For example, if we look at entry 3022 -- could we enlarge.
13 There, we see the name of that person, his father's name, his first name.
14 Year of birth is not there. Although it's known that it was a doctor,
15 that he was killed by a sniper on the 17th of June, and then all kind of
16 details about that. Why do we not know in what year that doctor was
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This list is not final. These case
19 files are not final. They have not been finalized. All this information
20 was taken from the archives that were accessible to us when we created
21 these case files.
22 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If -- if you -- excuse me.
24 Identification numbers and the files containing ID papers where they ae
25 contained were in the territory controlled by the Army of
1 Bosnia-Herzegovina. These persons, because they had been killed, were
2 not included in the joint common programme which allows us today to get
3 the name of a particular person with one click. That was a problem. And
4 it's obvious that we still continue working to complete these files and
5 to collect other evidence and relevant indicators pertaining to these
7 JUDGE ORIE: But only on this page for nine persons even the year
8 of birth is not known and if you say it doesn't automatically come in
9 well, if you say it's after close to 20 years that this is the level
10 which we reached, then we can continue.
11 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic, and I'm saying "please proceed," you
12 know you're now approximately one hour over your time and some of your
13 evidence was not about matters in dispute.
14 MR. S. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Since you've already put my last
15 question, and since the witness provided an explanation in terms of that,
16 I have no questions left for this witness for the time being.
17 Q. And I would just like to thank Mr. Tusevljak.
18 MR. S. LUKIC: As for these three exhibits, the video material
19 1D6006c and 1D6007a, and 1D045 [sic], I would like to tender that into
21 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar could you assign numbers.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Document number 1D06006c receives exhibit number
24 65 ter number 1D6007A receives exhibit number D1215.
25 Document number 1D05495 receives exhibit number D1216,
1 Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: No objections. All three admitted into evidence
3 under the numbers mentioned.
4 Ms. Edgerton, are you ready to start your cross-examination.
5 MS. EDGERTON: Absolutely. I'm just looking at the time. I will
6 have about seven minutes before the first break, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you would prefer to, for the flow of your
8 questions, to take the break now, then we'd consider that. But you could
10 MS. EDGERTON: I'll just begin, if I may and --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tusevljak, you'll now be cross-examined by
12 Ms. Edgerton. You find her to your right and Ms. Edgerton is counsel for
13 the Prosecution.
14 Please proceed.
15 Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton:
16 MS. EDGERTON:
17 Q. Good morning, Mr. Tusevljak. You can understand everything I
18 say, can you?
19 Can you understand me in your own language, Mr. Tusevljak?
20 A. In my language, yes, I'm receiving interpretation.
21 Q. Thank you. I just want to stay with this list for a while, with
22 your list, and ask you some questions on it.
23 Now, you've indicated in your testimony a few moments ago that
24 this list relates to a project to establish the victims of the war, and
25 you referred to civilians of all ethnicities who were killed in Bosnia
1 and Herzegovina, Bosniak, Serbs, Croats, Jews, all the victims of war.
2 Now I've had a look at this list and all the names on the list,
3 and but for two Ukrainians, I've only seen Serb names on this list. This
4 is a list of people who have a Serb surname; right?
5 A. Because my task was to establish precisely the victimisation of
6 Serbs. Others had other tasks. Within that commission, my task was to
7 see how many Serbs fell victim. That was my task. My task was not to
8 establish something else. It's a question of an assignment, a task,
9 nothing else.
10 Q. Does that mean that your answer is yes?
11 A. Yes, my task was to investigate cases when Serbs fell victim.
12 It's 2007, 2008 --
13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could all unnecessary
14 microphones please be switched off. Thank you.
15 MS. EDGERTON: Your indulgence for a moment, Your Honours.
16 [Prosecution counsel confer]
17 MS. EDGERTON:
18 Q. Now, you've also testified this morning that this list was based
19 on case files of Serbs killed in Sarajevo.
20 Now, there's a large number of people on this list who were
21 victimised in locations outside Sarajevo; correct?
22 A. No, there's not a single victim there that fell victim outside
23 the territory of the ten municipalities of Sarajevo.
24 Q. All right. Let's have a look at this list as we can and go to
25 number 92. And I'm sorry, I don't have the page numbers immediately for
1 these entries.
2 So just look at number -- entry number 91 and 92 and for that
3 matter, have a look at number 94 --
4 JUDGE ORIE: They're on e-court page 10, Your Honour --
5 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: In English.
7 MS. EDGERTON:
8 Q. There are three names of victims who were victimised in Kladanj.
9 Kladanj isn't in Sarajevo, is it?
10 A. First of all, these are probably persons --
11 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
12 A. Please --
13 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... my question. Kladanj isn't
14 in Sarajevo, is it?
15 A. Kladanj is not in Sarajevo.
16 Q. All right. Now, you have, in addition to this, at numbers 229,
17 707, 842, and 1462 entries related to victims in Olovo. Olovo isn't in
18 Sarajevo either, is it?
19 A. I don't see that here. What's the number that you said? I
20 haven't got it here on my monitor.
21 Q. My question is: Olovo isn't in Sarajevo, is it?
22 A. Olovo is not in Sarajevo.
23 Q. The list contains nine entries for people who were victimised in
24 Konjic. 11 entries for people who were victimised in Kijevo. One from
25 Rogatica. One from Sjemec and ten entries for people who were victimised
1 in Kiseljak. None of those places are anywhere in any one of the ten
2 pre-war Sarajevo municipalities, are they?
3 A. Kijevo is within the area of the municipality of Trnovo.
4 Kiseljak is a border area.
5 Well, we published this list, we made it public. It's on the
6 Internet. At the very end of this list, we said that this is a
7 preliminary list, that it is not final, that all citizens who see any
8 omission - and this was a huge undertaking - they can intervene. Sorry,
9 I --
10 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... I stop you
11 there. That's not the issue. The issue is not whether matters should be
12 corrected. The issue is that you say that these are -- is a list of
13 those who fell victim in the ten municipalities of Sarajevo.
14 Ms. Edgerton is telling that you on this list, that there is a
15 considerable number of people who were reported not to have died.
16 So whether there are any mistakes and whether these civilians
17 could comment, that's another matter, but ...
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is not a huge number of
20 mistakes, that's for sure.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. No, no --
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry -- please. There's 3.300
23 names of victims here, not these 30 or 40. Well, I don't have all the
24 files here because in the file that exists for each and every one of
25 these victims, you would be able to see other evidence that indicates why
1 they are here. I cannot see it on the basis of this list, but I can see
2 it in the file. Somebody just compiled this list on the basis of files.
3 It's not I or a member of my team that did this. Somebody else leafed
4 through this and made this table. We did not work on that. We worked on
5 the files, on the basis of which this table was made. So all of these
6 questions that the Prosecutor has put can be determined only if we go to
7 the actual files of the victims.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Which means that apparently the information as we
9 have it in the list is not reliable for making any findings, because the
10 explanation why it is different from what it looks like on this list is
11 not to be found in this list itself.
12 I leave it that to that for the time being and we take a break.
13 MS. EDGERTON: If I may, Your Honour, just before the break and
14 before we break, and it's my mistake, it was also reminded to me by
15 Mr. Tieger, I had actually intended, Your Honour, and I wasn't fast
16 enough on the uptake and listening to my memories, I had intended to ask
17 for this list we're discussing now to be marked for identification
18 pending cross-examination and I'd just like to put that on the record now
19 and ask Your Honours if we may reconsider, and it's 1D1216.
20 JUDGE ORIE: And you wanted to have it marked for identification
21 pending cross-examination. Well, -- we have admitted it already so you
22 could ask to reconsider that decision and perhaps do it after the
23 cross-examination or after this part.
24 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, although I did use the word "reconsider," I
25 would like Your Honours to reconsider the admission of that document.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Now or after --
2 MS. EDGERTON: [Overlapping speakers] ... after the end of the
3 cross-examination, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: After the end of the cross-examination. We will do
5 that. It certainly be helpful if you remind us to do it.
6 MS. EDGERTON: And, of course, my apologies for not noticing the
7 numbers as I was going along.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, apologies accepted. We will take a break and
9 we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes.
10 Mr. Tusevljak, you may now follow the usher.
11 [The witness stands down]
12 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at five minutes to 11.00.
13 --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.
14 --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.
15 JUDGE ORIE: We are waiting for the witness to be escorted into
16 the courtroom.
17 Meanwhile, I briefly deal with one procedural matter, which is
18 about D745.
19 On the 26th of August of this year, the Prosecution stated in
20 court that it does not oppose the admission of D745. Since an earlier
21 objection of the Prosecution was the reason that D745 was marked for
22 identification, the Chamber now admits D745 into evidence.
23 [The witness takes the stand]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.
25 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
1 Q. Mr. Tusevljak, I'd like to stay with this list for a while,
3 But --
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is D1216.
5 MS. EDGERTON: D1216, thank you.
6 Q. Now -- 1216. I mispronounced.
7 JUDGE ORIE: If we're talking about mispronunciation I misspoke
8 about Beara before the break when I refer to the list that people had not
9 died where I should have added in Sarajevo. That was a mistake and it
10 could create some confusion that's the reason why I'm trying to correct
11 it now immediately on the record.
12 Please proceed, and, again, apologies for interrupting you.
13 MS. EDGERTON: Not at all. Thank you.
14 Q. This list that's the same list you spoke about when you testified
15 here in the Dragomir Milosevic and the Stanisic and Zupljanin
16 prosecutions, isn't it?
17 A. It's just parts of the list because probably this list has been
18 extended, I think. Because investigations are ongoing. I've already
19 told you that it's not final. It's a preliminary list. It is being
20 supplemented to this day.
21 Q. Right. Now, then, let's see if we can have a look at 65 ter
22 number 32976.
23 Now I'm just going to show you the first page for a second. This
24 is the cover page of a book provided by a Defence witness for
25 Dr. Karadzic, and his name as you can see was Dusan Zurovac. And this
1 book was prepared or published in 2006. And if you look at the bottom of
2 the cover page, it even says: "Prepared by Dusan Zurovac."
3 Now if we --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, you're on your feet.
5 MR. S. LUKIC: Yes. I object. Because Mr. Tusevljak testified
6 about a list of missing and killed persons that were the result of a MUP
7 investigation and here we have a private individual who wrote a book
8 and --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Well, we do not know yet what the question is. So
10 let's wait for that. And as soon as you stand, Mr. Lukic, I usually
11 understand that as a request to interfere, and perhaps you were a bit too
12 early on your feet.
13 Please proceed.
14 MS. EDGERTON:
15 Q. Now I'm going to have us turn to Sanction actually because,
16 Mr. Tusevljak, I'd like to have us look at the first page of your list
17 side by side with the first page of this book.
18 And Ms. Stewart has that available for us. If you'd just give us
19 a couple of minutes.
20 So what you should see beside you is the first page of your -- or
21 page -- this is -- have a look at entry number 3, actually, in your list,
22 which is on the left-hand side, beside and it's an entry for somebody by
23 the name of Risto Avram and then go over and look at the same entry for
24 Risto Avram with the same date of birth, same father's name and same
25 event details. That's at page 2 in Mr. Zurovac's book. The two entries
1 are word for word identical, aren't they?
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Edgerton, shall we be able to see the lists
3 in English at some stage. They're both in B/C/S.
4 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, I was doing that for the witness's ease and
5 I'm wondering if I could invite Your Honours to look at the English
6 version of D1216 on your own e-court so that you're able to follow along.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: The important thing is to compare the two lists so
8 that's why I'm asking at some stage you'll give the same lists both on
9 the same page but in English for us to see.
10 JUDGE ORIE: And what is in Sanction, of course, we could not get
11 on our on screens. So, therefore, if you say compare the English then at
12 least for what is presented in Sanction we are unable to do that.
13 MS. EDGERTON: If I could make my point with the witness and then
14 we will go to the English pages in e-court.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 MS. EDGERTON:
17 Q. Now, you see those two entries are word for word identical;
19 JUDGE ORIE: Now again, we are looking at the list presented by
20 the witness entry number 3 and on the right side of the screen, it is --
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Entry number 6 [Overlapping speakers] ...
23 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ...
24 MS. EDGERTON: It's actually the entry at the top of the page.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then there it appears that's for let me
1 see, 3 seems to be -- yes. 3 corresponds with Avram and I see Risto and
2 I see 1952, and I see a rather long description in which at least the
3 date, 25th of 6th of 1992, appears in both the lists. Is that what you
4 are --
5 MS. EDGERTON: Yes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, we are with you. Please proceed.
7 MS. EDGERTON:
8 Q. They're identical, aren't they?
9 A. Yes, except for this at the end where we say that he was exhumed
10 according to the information of the central records for searching for
11 missing persons. I've already said to you when I was answering the
12 questions put by the Defence that the first preliminary list of 2.500
13 names --
14 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
15 A. I would like to answer. I would like to clarify something if I
17 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... it is
18 Ms. Edgerton who puts the questions to you and if she thinks you're
19 moving away too much from her question then whatever you wish to explain,
20 if it's relevant you'll given an opportunity to later in re-examination.
21 But if she interrupts you in fairness, of course, then you'd have to
22 follow her. And I'm a bit lost where the exhumation is mentioned in the
23 last lines because at least what I see is that there is some similarity
24 there as well, the word exhumation at the semi-last line, a date is
1 But I leave it your hands, Ms. Edgerton.
2 MR. S. LUKIC: Maybe I can help?
3 JUDGE ORIE: Well, let's see how far Ms. Edgerton comes and then
4 your help is appreciated, I take it, later.
5 MS. EDGERTON:
6 Q. So I just want to say with these two pages and what we'll be able
7 to since we're staying with the two pages is go over to the English
8 language page for Their Honours. Have a look at your list at entries
9 number 4, 5, 6, even number 9, and they're almost identical with the
10 entries in the book by Dusan Zurovac, aren't they?
11 A. Yes.
12 MS. EDGERTON: If we could now go over to the English version of
13 D1216, just the first page, so Their Honours so see the entries we've
14 been referring to. D1216. Page 3 it is of D1216 actually.
15 JUDGE ORIE: That's still the B/C/S. Yes, now we need English
16 for both lists: The book and the exhibit.
17 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, because of time constraints we don't
18 have an English translation of the first page of that book.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Oh.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Fine. But the page where we see the entries which
21 you wanted to compare.
22 MS. EDGERTON: We can give you the B/C/S -- the B/C/S entries.
23 JUDGE ORIE: You have no English translation for the book.
24 MS. EDGERTON: No. Our translators have been working at great
25 speed, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. But then, of course, being unable to compare
2 the entry as if it is about exhumations and the differences where we
3 cannot verify it ourselves, Mr. Lukic, if your offer to assist still
4 stands, I would appreciate.
5 MR. S. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I just wanted to assist regarding
6 the difference in explanation in the previous document shown from
7 Mr. Zurovac's book. I doubt that I can assist with this in any way.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Because I think that the witness said
9 something about that information was added in your list and we see there
10 the last portion of the text being exhumed at the Aerodromsko Naselje
11 settlement and identified on the 10th of -- it looks January, I think,
12 2000, data of the office for tracing missing persons.
13 What's the difference between the two --
14 MR. S. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I can. The difference is
15 that in the list, D1216, it reads in the last sentence: "Information of
16 the information for searches for the missing persons," and in Zurovac's
17 book it says he was exhumed in the Aerodrom neighbourhood.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 MS. EDGERTON: Which appears that the fact of the exhumation in
20 the Aerodrom neighbourhood is in all [Overlapping speakers] ...
21 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... it's in both.
22 MS. EDGERTON:
23 Q. But now you having seen, Mr. Tusevljak, that the entries on the
24 first page are almost identical I want to tell that you we've actually
25 gone through the book we've had a speaker of your language go through
1 that book and see that most of the entries are identical. So I'd like to
2 ask you what you spoke to -- in relation to what you spoke to in your
3 testimony in-chief here, whose list is it? Is it your list or is it
4 Mr. Zurovac's list which was published in 2005?
5 A. I'm talking about the list of the Ministry of Interior of
6 Republika Srpska, not the list of Mr. Zurovac. This last word,
7 "information from the office for searches for the missing" means that the
8 MUP of Republika Srpska, concerning the killing of Avram Nedjo Risto,
9 received information from the office for searches for the missing of
10 Republika Srpska and it's obvious that the same information was received
11 by Mr. Zurovac from the same office. That's why I said it was important
12 to stress that this is information obtained from the office for searches
13 for the missing that Mr. Zurovac obtained too. And it's probable that
14 the information we got from that office - and obviously Mr. Zurovac got
15 it as well - may coincide because the same information was received by
16 the MUP and Mr. Zurovac when he was collecting material for this book.
17 Q. Thank you. [Overlapping speakers] ...
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Overlapping speakers] ... Can I just ask a
19 question for clarification. I thought you said earlier that this list
20 that you were talking about from your office was compiled based on the
21 information from the investigation files, not from the office of tracing
22 missing persons.
23 Am I -- did I misunderstand you? You actually said you didn't
24 compile this but you -- but the people who compiled the list did so
25 getting their information from the files, individual files for
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I should clarify. Information
3 concerning persons who were victimised was obtained from police sources,
4 from military sources, from the centre for investigating war crimes in
5 Belgrade, the office for tracing missing persons, the records of the
6 ICRC. All these archives were reviewed by us and everything pertaining
7 to certain persons was included in the case files for these people. This
8 list is just an excerpt from these case files.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... thank you for
10 the explanation. Thank you so much.
11 MS. EDGERTON:
12 Q. Sir, did you check this list? Have you had a look at it?
13 A. You mean this one here? I did not check it, but it was made by
14 operative officers of the MUP of Republika Srpska who used archives and
15 case filings that are in my office to create this list. So each person
16 included in this list should have a case file in the archives.
17 Q. And what happens when you have an entry that appears to be a
19 A. I've said that we have software in our computer set up in such a
20 way that when we have the same name and surname and even the same
21 father's name, the case file is pulled up and if we find out that it's
22 the same person we put additional documentation in that case file and if
23 we establish that it's a different person we open a new case file.
24 Q. All right. So let's go back to D1216 and go over to a couple of
25 entries that I have some questions about then. I've -- first of all,
1 want to go to number 2749 on the list. It's at B/C/S page 224 and
2 English page 199.
3 And you see the name I'm interested in at the top of the page in
4 your language, 2749, that's Olga Cokic.
5 Now, Mr. Tusevljak, if you go over to entry number 2832, it's on
6 B/C/S page 230 and English page 204. And, for the record, she's at the
7 bottom in English, page 199. So we're going to entry 2832. You see that
8 the very same -- a woman by the very same name with the identical
9 father's name and the identical year of birth is listed. And frankly,
10 they have the descriptions of the way in which they went missing is very,
11 very similar. The woman at entry number 2749 went missing in Sarajevo on
12 18 May 1992 and the same woman in entry 2832 was killed by a sniper on 18
13 May 1992. That's a potential duplicate, isn't it?
14 JUDGE ORIE: Before you answer the question, Mr. Lukic.
15 MR. S. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I just want to object because it
16 was said incorrectly that these were identical persons. There is a
17 difference in surname. The person --
18 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...
19 THE INTERPRETER: Counsel has said these numbers too fast.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Now, if you want to object on that basis you should
21 do it in such a way that it doesn't give guidance to the witness, such as
22 misrepresents the evidence or misrepresented or could I invite to read
23 exactly the names on both lists and otherwise you have an opportunity to
24 address the matter in re-examination. But the way in which do it,
25 Mr. Lukic, is not the way it should be done.
1 At the same time, Ms. Edgerton has now heard what you said and
2 certainly will think about it and when continuing her cross-examination.
3 Ms. Edgerton.
4 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
5 Q. I'll go onto another entry. Perhaps we can could go over to
6 English and B/C/S page 76.
7 Have a look at entries number 897 and 903, Mr. Tusevljak. They
8 both relate to a woman by the name of Sofia Eric and while number 897 has
9 actually no year of birth or father's name, they both relate to women who
10 were exhumed from the Lav cemetery on 27 August 2000. That's another
11 potential duplicate, isn't it?
12 A. Without looking into the case files, I cannot know whether it's a
13 duplicate or not. The only criterion is the case file and the
14 information contained therein.
15 JUDGE ORIE: That's the reason why Ms. Edgerton phrased her
16 question about a potential duplicate. The question is whether you see
17 anything here which would make you conclude that there's no need to go
18 back to the original files and that, on the basis of what is found on
19 this list, you could already exclude a duplicate, because if not it is a
20 potential duplicate.
21 Any comment?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In this 897, we don't have the
23 father' name. We have the father's name for 903. But some things
24 coincide. We don't have the date of disappearance up there. It means
25 it's 1993. And since this is documentation we received from the office
1 for tracing missing persons, it's probable that this office has records
2 for two persons.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That was not the issue.
4 Please proceed.
5 MS. EDGERTON:
6 Q. We're just going to one more, both on the same page in English
7 and B/C/S, page 99, and it's entries 1199 and 1200.
8 Now, they both relate to a man by the name of Zdravko Karakas who
9 was born in 1952. Same date of birth. Do you see -- and same father's
10 name. Do you see a potential duplicate in that entry?
11 A. Again, this concerns two different sources of information. In
12 the first one, as you can see, the person went missing in Sarajevo in
13 1992; and in the second, it says he was killed by a shell on
14 22nd June 1992.
15 So, according to the information we received, or the
16 documentation that was available to us, we were not in a position at that
17 time to establish whether it is the same person or not because the
18 information on the manner of killing differs. One is that he was taken
19 to Kasin and killed and the other was from Oslobodjenje, 18 January
20 1992, where it says that this person was killed by a shell. That's the
21 difference and that's why these names which are the same are on the same
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: If may just --
24 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... you said it was reported
25 he was taken to, et cetera, that's -- were you reading from 1198 instead
1 of from 1199? Is that what you did?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, sorry, it's my mistake. It
3 says here he went missing in Sarajevo --
4 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- and the data was received from
6 his aunt.
7 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... just wanted to
8 point that you were reading from the -- another record.
9 Please proceed.
10 MS. EDGERTON:
11 Q. So on the basis of an identical surname, an identical father's
12 name, and an identical date of birth, as well as an identical first name,
13 do you see a potential duplicate in that entry, yes or no?
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Identical year of birth.
15 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, to be precisely.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said this was a preliminary list
17 and until we check the case files to see what might indicate differently
18 we cannot know looking at this list. In Bosnia-Herzegovina to this day,
19 when you type in the names and the father's name you often get hundreds
20 of names.
21 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
22 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask you, earlier another list was presented
23 which was published in 2005 and Ms. Edgerton, although we had no
24 opportunity yet to verify that, said that the entries were -- most of the
25 cases exactly the same.
1 Now if would that would be true for what is found in 2005, do I
2 understand that finding duplicates since 2005, that is, over the last ten
3 years has not reached a level where with such similar family name, first
4 name, father's name, year of birth, approximate time when disappeared or
5 killed that you had no opportunity yet to verify on the basis of the
6 underlying documentation whether it is really a duplicate or whether it
7 still is a potential duplicate only?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These could only be potential
9 duplicates not real duplicates. Investigation continues and things
10 change. We had a lot more information in the early days that we found
11 out is incorrect after doing some work and we eliminated such persons.
12 We didn't include them. We have a lot of dubious case files still where
13 we are unable to determine the validity of the evidence, and we didn't
14 include them at all --
15 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... one second.
16 This is all general considerations. Are you able to tell us exactly what
17 was done with Mr. Karakas Dusan in 1199 and 1200. Could you give us
18 details on verification which would either tell you that they were two
19 different persons or that it is, indeed, a duplicate?
20 If you know tell us; if you don't know, tell us as well.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At this moment, I cannot know
22 because we have 3.300 names. I cannot memorize each of then.
23 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... not blaming you
24 for it. But I just want to know whether you can answer that question.
25 Ms. Edgerton.
1 MS. EDGERTON: Could we please have a look at 65 ter number
3 Q. And while we're waiting for that, I want to ask you: Would you
4 agree with me, Mr. Tusevljak, that duplicates, potential duplicates on
5 any list, would tend to elevate the numbers of people listed?
6 A. No.
7 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
8 A. Absolutely not. We never had that intention.
9 Q. No, it's -- I'm not asking about your intention. I'm asking if
10 for whatever reason there's two people, two names on the list which have
11 an identical surname, an identical first name, an identical father's name
12 and an identical year of birth when only one after --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
14 MR. S. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I want to object because it's
15 impossible to establish the identicalness of one person only on the basis
16 of information or data cited by my colleague.
17 JUDGE ORIE: You're answering the question rather than to object
18 against the question.
19 Now, Ms. Edgerton, your question originally was that if you have
20 duplicates on a list that that tends to elevate the number of people
21 listed. Of course, if a person, the same person appears twice then that
22 adds one to the list. I mean, what's there for a witness to add anything
23 which not everyone would consider to be obvious.
24 MS. EDGERTON: That's fine. He did say no, though, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I have heard his answer on a question which --
2 MS. EDGERTON: Understood.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
4 MS. EDGERTON:
5 Q. Mr. Tusevljak, the list you see in front of you --
6 JUDGE ORIE: By the way in all fairness the witness said no on
7 the basis of a wrong understanding of the question. Because he said, No,
8 we had no intention. So apparently he understood your question wrongly,
9 the question was not needed to be put at all and we'll now continue.
10 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, thank you.
11 Q. Mr. Tusevljak, in front of you, you see a list that's drawn from
12 the names that appeared in the larger list we've been talking about. And
13 we've been able to identify over 60 potential duplicate names.
14 So, Mr. Tusevljak, it looks like your offices haven't screened
15 the list for potential duplicates, doesn't it?
16 A. The list was screened and filtered many times, and if you take
17 away even these -- this number of duplicates, still you remain with over
18 3.000 people killed. There is a small percentage of errors that can
19 appear anywhere but it's negligible compared to the number of victims
20 shown in this list based on the existing case files.
21 Why do I want to tell that you it's not our intention to
22 manipulate? This list was put up on the Internet and everyone can react.
23 That's one.
24 Second, it was made for the joint commission where the
25 representatives for Serbs on that commission were supposed to prove for
1 each name of this list, that it was a civilian victim. It had to be
2 presented to the Bosniak and the Croat and every other side. And that
3 other side had the possibility to react, like you are reacting now, to
4 anything wrong with any of the names, to prevent any manipulation. So it
5 was not our intention to maximise the number of victims but to get
6 evidence that would enable us to establish the actual number of victims.
7 This was not driven by politics. This was a police investigation. Of
8 course, there is always the possibility of human error, but it's
10 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you're giving a long answer on an
11 allegation that was never made. The simple question was that you haven't
12 screened it for duplicates. That's the only simple factual question.
13 Did your office find time or have an opportunity to deal with those
14 potential duplicates or have they not?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No --
16 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- wherever we established there
18 was, indeed, a duplicate, we eliminated it.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And have not, for those here listed here, 30
20 names which appear approximately the same twice, you did not have an
21 opportunity yet to verify?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I ask Ms. Edgerton, who prepared this list we
25 have on the screen in front of us?
1 MS. EDGERTON: This list was prepared internally within the ICTY.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That means at the OTP.
3 MS. EDGERTON: Yes.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is what I wanted to put on the record.
5 Thank you.
6 JUDGE ORIE: And you also agree that what you consider to be
7 potential duplicates at least there is some difference in spelling very
8 often. So therefore, what the potential of those potential duplicates is
9 still to be seen because there are noticeable differences as well.
10 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
12 MS. EDGERTON:
13 Q. Now today in your testimony, you also told His Honour --
14 Their Honours that the list, D1216 is a list of civilians only. You
15 remember that?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. But you know there are some soldiers on your list.
18 A. There may be members of the Army of Republika Srpska but, at the
19 moment of death, they were not militarily engaged. They were not on the
20 front line, they were away from the front line, they were wearing
21 civilian clothes, et cetera. There is no one here who died on the front
23 Q. So -- actually, let's have a look at the list again. Let's go
24 over to entry number 1563. It's English and B/C/S page 129.
25 JUDGE ORIE: But we need the long list, isn't it, not the
1 potential duplicates.
2 MS. EDGERTON: D1216.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yeah.
4 MS. EDGERTON: I can ask the question without waiting for the
6 Q. You would also, since you were able to answer that question to a
7 certain extent affirmatively, although with a comment about the status,
8 at the moment these people were killed, you would also be able to confirm
9 that your list includes members of the JNA; right?
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
11 MR. S. LUKIC: There is no such information.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, you are commenting on -- you are --
13 you're giving testimony. You shouldn't do that. I mean, if there's
14 anything to be dealt with, you do it later in re-examination. And we do
15 not know yet the answer of the witness.
16 MR. S. LUKIC: I'm sorry.
17 JUDGE ORIE: So please be aware that this fully inappropriate.
18 Please proceed.
19 MS. EDGERTON:
20 Q. Now that we've got the list in front of us, have a look at entry
21 number 1563. That's Radenko Magazin. He was killed on
22 Dobrovoljacka Street. He's a member of the JNA; right. You put his rank
23 there. He's a soldier; right?
24 A. He's the victim of a war crime. We are talking about victims of
25 war crimes here.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, witness, you talked about civilians. You
2 said they were all civilians. You didn't say they were victims of war
3 crimes. You said they were civilians. And I would invite you to make a
4 clear distinction between the two.
5 Please proceed with your answer.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Then I do apologise. On this list,
7 there are victims of war crimes. And since soldiers are also victims of
8 war crimes, that is to say, they were not killed in combat, they are also
9 contained in this list. I'm sorry I didn't explain it the first time.
10 So these are victims of war crimes.
11 MS. EDGERTON:
12 Q. How many soldiers are on this list?
13 A. We did not make that kind of distinction. But it's very clear
14 here. It's always mentioned here if somebody is a soldier. That means
15 that that person was killed as part of a war crime in Dobrovoljacka, in a
16 camp in Sarajevo, so it's all mentioned here in the notes. But such a
17 person was not killed as a result of his activities as a member of the
18 army. Rather, he fell victim to a war crime.
19 Q. So what you're saying is you've never taken this
20 computer-generated list over to your own Ministry of Defence and run it
21 through their systems to identify how many VRS soldiers are on the list;
23 A. Well, we worked in the Ministry of Interior, and I already told
24 you in which way we did our work. It was based on how a person fell
25 victim. That is how we compiled this list. At that moment, it didn't
1 matter whether that person was a member of the VRS or the JNA. That
2 person was a victim of a war crime, which means that that is against
3 international law so that person is a war crimes victim.
4 Q. You don't know either that you have members of the Army of Bosnia
5 and Herzegovina on this list, do you?
6 A. There are also members of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, those
7 who fell victim to war crimes and that's the situation in Kazani where
8 members of the 9th and 10th Mountain Brigade precisely killed Serbs who
9 were within their own ranks. And I also a have a series of examples. I
10 know it by heart because this is it a case that we submitted to the
11 prosecutor's office of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
12 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
13 A. -- and they are victims of war crimes.
14 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... I didn't ask you about
15 Kazani. My colleague can do that in re-examination if you want to talk
16 about it. The question was simple: Do you know or don't you that you
17 have members of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina on this list.
18 A. I think I've just given you an answer, that there are members of
19 the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina who are Serbs and victims of war crimes
20 and they were killed by the same members of that army.
21 Q. All right. So how many members of the Army of Bosnia and
22 Herzegovina do you have on this list then?
23 A. I'll give you the same answer that I gave for members of the Army
24 of Republika Srpska and who were victims of war crimes we did not
25 establish that. We did not make a distinction there and that was not the
1 aim of this investigation. Their affiliations of any kind. Their
2 affiliations with an ethnic group, that is.
3 Q. So when you insisted that this list was only civilians earlier
4 today, and you insisted that actually when you talked about this list and
5 in the Dragomir Milosevic case and in the Stanisic and Zupljanin case
6 when you insisted it was only civilians, that was actually incorrect,
7 wasn't it?
8 A. We're not understanding each other. This has to do with war
9 crimes victims. That is to say, all the persons whose names are on this
10 list were unlawfully killed. So these are persons who were killed. At
11 the moment when they were killed, when they lost their lives, they were
12 not acting in their capacity of military personnel. They were not
13 carrying out combat tasks.
14 JUDGE ORIE: May I take it - but just a clarifying question -
15 there are quite a number of people on this list as reported missing.
16 Were they victims of war crimes as well, or is that just unknown?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, obviously these persons who
18 are recorded here as missing are actually persons who were taken by
19 military or police organs from their apartments and then all trace was
20 lost of them. Obviously because time went by - it's already been 20
21 years - well, already after a few years, it was clear that they were
22 victims of war crimes because they could not just disappear. They were
23 taken away. They were taken to a camp or somewhere. They were killed
24 along the way or in the camp and their bodies were removed and it is
25 evident that they are victims of war crimes, in terms of the way in which
1 they went missing. You know, they didn't go in an unknown direction from
2 their apartments. They were taken away by organs.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Sometimes the entry just says "missing" or "went
4 missing" and for quite a few others, it says they were taken from their
5 apartment, et cetera. But I do understand from your answer that you are
6 assuming that if there's no further data in here, that you assume that
7 they were taken, that you assume that they were killed because they could
8 not just disappear. That's your reasoning for such conclusions. Is that
9 correctly understood?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. And you will see that when
11 speaking of missing persons it usually says that this is information
12 provided by the office for searching for missing persons.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
14 MS. EDGERTON:
15 Q. So you've not done any checks into these names of missing persons
16 to make sure that they're not still alive, have you?
17 A. Well, of course, we checked. That's done every day for every
18 day, from the moment when they were reported as missing. To this day.
19 There are their families, there are witnesses, so it's an illusion. I
20 wish they were all alive. I would be so happy, believe me if you found
21 1.000 persons or 2.000 persons who were alive after all and that none of
22 them went missing. Rather, that they were all living somewhere abroad.
23 I wish it was that way because I have lots of relatives and friends
24 amongst them.
25 Q. So if you checked to see what their status was, did you by any
1 chance check and see whether they had registered to vote in 1997 or in
2 2000? That would be an easy check, wouldn't it?
3 A. This list was compiled in 2007, as were the files, so it's all of
4 12 years after the end of the war. We did find different cases, somebody
5 reported, say, in 1992, that a person went missing and whenever we found
6 this person to be alive. I didn't need a voters' list. It's enough for
7 me to enter the database of the CIPS because in order to be able to vote
8 every person has to have an ID card. And this information is accessible
9 to all my operatives. It's sufficient to check the new ID or the new
10 passport that everybody has so this would just be additional work that
11 wouldn't really lead us anywhere.
12 Q. So you're here confirming that there's no one on this list who is
13 still alive. Is that what I'm to take from that?
14 A. None of these persons are alive, those who are here. At least on
15 the basis of the checks that we've run so far.
16 Q. Well, could we have look, please, at 65 ter number 32974.
17 So, Mr. Tusevljak, what we did when we received this list, is we
18 looked at this list against the voter registers for the elections in 1997
19 and 1998 and 2000 and we came up with a list of people who were
20 potentially alive. And we took that list - and there were 80 names - and
21 we pared it down to ten people and we sent that list down to our field
22 office in Sarajevo and here you see the results of what we asked them to
23 do. We forwarded it to our field office who then forwarded it to
24 authorities in Republika Srpska, for the Ministry of Interior, and to
25 authorities in the Federation to see if these people could be located.
1 And I'll show you their responses.
2 Let's just go down a little bit and look at number 1 on this
3 list. His name is Zoran Gajic. And in B/C/S you'll have to go over to
4 page 2, please.
5 Zoran Gajic, who appears at entry number 511 on your list, lives
6 in Brcko district. If we go down to the next name, Dragan Zrnic, who
7 appears at number 949 of your list, he also lives in Brcko district. And
8 if we go over to page 2 in English and just a little bit further down the
9 page in B/C/S. Vitomir Jaric, who is entry number 1080 on your list,
10 lives in Zvornik. And Zoran Krsmanovic, number 1394 on your list, lives
11 in Bijeljina. So there's four actually still alive. And one
12 Lena Njegovanovic, number 1967 on your list, was alive and registered in
13 Trebinje in 2010.
14 And then if we go over to Annex D of this document at B/C/S page
15 ten and English pages 9 and 10.
16 MS. EDGERTON: And I'll just be a couple of more minutes,
17 Your Honour.
18 Q. You see -- I'll wait until we see the B/C/S. You see that Gajic,
19 Zrnic and Krsmanovic were all personally contacted. Gajic was a soldier
20 and police officer. He was never deployed in Sarajevo. And that's what
21 he told the authorities when he was contacted. Zrnic was a former JNA
22 officer absorbed into the VRS and later a member of the police. He
23 wasn't missing at all. And Krsmanovic, and we have to go over to the
24 next page in both languages. Krsmanovic -- pardon me, if we could go
25 back over to page 3 in this document and page 4 in B/C/S. Krsmanovic,
1 whom you allege was taken into June 1992 from his apartment in
2 Novo Sarajevo, was deployed in Bijeljina during the war and never in or
3 around Sarajevo.
4 So, Mr. Tusevljak, my question to you is: The information on
5 your list in terms of the missing is unreliable, isn't it?
6 A. No. I would like to see that list now. Why this persons are on
7 that list. I now have persons here with certain information and then I
8 don't see those notes, why that person is on that list. I'm talking
9 about the list of persons about 3.300, and you are referring to ten. So
10 I'd had to have this huge brain in order to remember 3.300 persons and
11 the reasons why they're on this list. And I really cannot see that now,
12 and I don't know if these are the persons who are on the list because
13 over here it says reason why these persons are on the list.
14 JUDGE ORIE: We'll look at that, if need be, after the break.
15 Because we'll first take a break. We'd like to see you back in 20
16 minutes. You may follow the usher.
17 [The witness stands down]
18 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at 20 minutes past 12.00.
19 --- Recess taken at 11.59 a.m.
20 --- On resuming at 12.21 p.m.
21 JUDGE ORIE: While we are waiting, I'd like to briefly deal with
23 On the 24th of August of this year, the Defence advised the
24 Chamber and the Prosecution through an e-mail that the parties are
25 reached an agreement that the handwriting on page 2 column 4 of D768
3 Since in outstanding matter was the reason D768 retained its MFI
4 status, the Chamber now admits D768 into evidence. The Chamber also puts
5 on the record that the Defence in the same e-mail stated that the parties
6 had agreed that the source of this handwriting is unknown.
7 [The witness takes the stand]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, if you're ready, please proceed.
9 MS. EDGERTON: Yes. Thank you.
10 Q. Now, with respect to the list overall, you pointed out in your
11 testimony in-chief that you said the list and your files contain the
12 names and the years of birth of the people listed and their father's
13 name. And when His Honour Judge Orie then queried you about a missing --
14 at transcript page 16 and 17 a missing year of birth for one of your
15 entries, you pointed out the list was not finalised.
16 So in counting up the entries on your list, we realised that a
17 total of 1.437 entries were missing a first name or a father's name or a
18 year of birth.
19 So, similarly, we should consider those entries as inconclusive
20 or not finalized cases. Is that fair?
21 A. Not only those 1.000-something, but none of these are final and
22 complete. This is not a list that was verified by that commission. I
23 already said that this was taken from the files and attachments,
24 evidence, have been included in these files pertaining to the
25 victimisation of these persons. So the list is not final to this day.
1 It's still being worked on. However, it is evident that all these
2 persons that are on the list, that there is some evidence about these
3 persons that indicate what their fate was.
4 Q. So, then, when we talk about their fate, you would agree with me
5 that this list includes the names of Serbs in Bosnian-held Sarajevo who
6 were killed as a result of shelling and sniping by VRS forces; right?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Well, let's please go back to the list, D1216, English page 193
9 and B/C/S page 213. I want to go to entry number 2597.
10 Right. Entry number 2597 is for Jadranka Tendzera and your
11 information, as I understand it -- she was born in 1963, and your
12 information, as I understand, says she was killed by a shell at
13 Vojnicko Polje on 4 February 1994, information from the centre for
14 investigating crimes against the Serb people in Belgrade.
15 Now I want to go to P867 now, please. P867 is the investigative
16 file for a shelling in Dobrinja, which is Bosnian-held Sarajevo, where
17 nine people were killed and 20 were wounded.
18 And could we please go over to page 6 in both languages of this
19 document. And page 6 is the second page of the on-site investigative
21 This on-site investigative report lists the victims and you see
22 Jadranka Tendzera is number 1 on the list and in addition to her, there
23 is Enver Mustagrudic, Saida Bakcevic, Ermin Kolar and Aisa Sito and an
24 unidentified child. And then listed below are three additional victims
25 who succumbed to their injuries.
1 So, Mr. Tusevljak, not only is your information wrong, and you
2 were incorrect in the assertion that you just made about Mrs. Tendzera,
3 you've listed the only Serb victim in a large-scale shelling in
4 Bosnian-held Sarajevo; right?
5 A. But we see here that we had mentioned that this is information
6 from the centre for the investigation of war crimes in Belgrade. That's
7 very clear. That is to say, we used the information that we had, that
8 is, information from the centre for investigation of war crimes from
9 Belgrade, what we mentioned that, we did not have this document here. I
10 could take a look at it and I could see if it's the same person. If it's
11 Dobrinja or Vojnicko Polje, because they are two completely different
12 neighbourhoods in Sarajevo. Completely different neighbourhoods,
13 separate. One is Dobrinja, the other one is Vojnicko Polje.
14 Q. Dobrinja was Bosnian-held and Vojnicko Polje was Serb-held during
15 the war; correct?
16 A. No. None of the two. Only one part of Dobrinja was under Serb
17 control. The main part of Dobrinja was under BH army control and the
18 same with Vojnicko Polje. One part was controlled by the VRS, the other
19 by ABiH.
20 Q. So, if we give you, after the next break, a copy of this
21 investigative report and a copy of Mrs. Tendzera's death certificate, is
22 that going to help you confirm whether or not there are Serb victims of
23 VRS shelling and sniping into Bosnian-held Sarajevo on this list?
24 A. It's possible that there were casualties killed by the Serb
25 forces, but our intention was to put on the list anyone who was Serb and
1 was killed in Sarajevo by Bosnian forces. Through our investigations, we
2 received reports or found out from witnesses that many people who were
3 victimised in camps or were killed were shown -- were held out to be
4 victims killed by Serbs which was not the case. You have the case of
5 Romeo and Juliet from Sarajevo, where the girl was killed by --
6 Q. If you want to talk about that case, you can do it in your
7 re-direct examination. I'd like to focus on another incident.
8 Let's have a look at P6482, please, and I'm going ask you about a
9 couple of entries on your list now. Gordana Bogdanovic, your entry says
10 she was -- your entry says: Killed civilians on the territory of
11 Sarajevo, information provided by the centre for crimes committed over
12 the Serbian people, Belgrade. She got killed by a shell 5 February 1994.
13 MS. EDGERTON: Can we go over, please, to the next page in both
15 Q. Go down to number 8 on this list in both languages. You --
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Is there no problem with broadcasting this list?
17 MS. EDGERTON: I'll defer to my colleague to my right. Not to be
18 broadcast, he says.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
20 MS. EDGERTON: And he'll verify and advise us in due course.
21 Q. She appears at number 8 on the list. If we go further down to
22 number 33 on this list, we see Marija Knezevic whose name appears in
23 entry at 1269 on your list. Ruza Malovic who is entry number 1601 on
24 your list appears at number 39 and actually in addition, you know, just
25 in terms of Serb victims, there's an additional three on this list that
1 aren't even referred to on your list; Klacar, Vojnovic - four - Cesic,
2 Cebrez [phoen].
3 So in addition to victims of the incident for which General Galic
4 has been convicted and sentences, your list includes victims of the
5 market-place massacre in February 1994; right?
6 A. You have to let me see my list again to see the explanation why
7 these people were included. Because I don't know by heart. I have to
8 see the explanation next to the name.
9 Q. Let's go back to your list for a second because it might be
10 somewhat illuminating in terms of the level of information that you
11 provide about these individuals.
12 Let's go to number 1601 on D1216. It's at ET in B/C/S, page 132.
13 We see the entry for Ruza Malovic in front of us in your
14 language. And now in English. The data on Mrs. Malovic simply says,
15 Killed civilian in Sarajevo. It doesn't provide an indication as to
16 whether or not it happened in Bosnian-held Sarajevo or Serb-held
17 Sarajevo. It doesn't provide an indication as to the date of the
18 incident. This kind of --
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: 5th February [Overlapping speakers] ...
20 MS. EDGERTON: Pardon me.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 5th February.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: 1993, not 4.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Markale was in 1994, February. If
24 I remember well. The 1st of February; right?
25 JUDGE ORIE: I think we heard quite a bit of evidence that it was
1 on the 5th of February.
2 MS. EDGERTON: Correct.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
4 MS. EDGERTON:
5 Q. So this kind of deficient data risks being misleading as to where
6 an incident might have happened, doesn't it?
7 A. That's why I'm telling you, the list is preliminary and the
8 investigation continues. What you saying now, all of this is at the
9 stage of checks and adding to the material. This is not a shut book.
10 It's an open book. It's open to all people of goodwill to provide
11 evidence on killing of Serbs in Sarajevo. We have never tried to run
12 away from any kind of correction from day one because our purpose was to
13 get to the truth. So that those who are responsible for crimes be held
14 accountable, be brought to justice. There are investigations ongoing,
15 both in the cantonal prosecutor's office and the district prosecutor's
17 Q. So you haven't updated this list since the verdict was rendered
18 in the Prosecution of General Galic, have you?
19 A. Now different policemen are working on investigations of war
20 crimes for the city of Sarajevo. I am in engaged in other work, and I
21 have had no insight in a long time what corrections have been made.
22 MS. EDGERTON: Your indulgence for a moment, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In the meantime, I would like that ask the
24 witness: When was the last update of this list conducted?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really don't know. But I think
1 where the case files are in the Security Services Centre in eastern
2 Sarajevo there is a Department for Investigating War Crimes and that
3 department has the possibility, every time they obtain new evidence, to
4 include that evidence in the case file of the relevant victim.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But you don't know when it was updated the last
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I really don't know.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
9 Ms. Edgerton.
10 MS. EDGERTON:
11 Q. So just based on two incidents we've been discussing now,
12 shelling in Dobrinja and the market-place shelling the next day, it looks
13 like the only narrow thing we can be sure of in terms of this list is
14 that it does -- are you not hearing translation, interpretation?
15 A. No, it's just that I absolutely don't agree with you, and that's
16 why I'm --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Would you first listen to the question before you
18 start expressing agreement or disagreement.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 MS. EDGERTON:
21 Q. The only thing we can be sure of on this list in terms of
22 up-to-date investigation is that it includes Serb victims of shelling and
23 sniping in Bosnian-held Sarajevo; right?
24 A. No. The way you are putting the question, it's impossible to
25 answer it with a yes or no.
1 If I understood the question correctly, and I hope I did, you are
2 trying with this list of 3.300 names and case files is to reduce it to
3 two incidents and there are 3.300 incidents involved.
4 JUDGE ORIE: You're not expected to comment of what the
5 intentions of Ms. Edgerton are. That's not something for a witness.
6 The question was simply whether it's true or not that Serb
7 victims of shelling and sniping in Bosnian-held Sarajevo were included.
8 Ms. Edgerton, I take it that you did not want to say whether all
9 of those were included but at least some of cases of Serb victims of
10 shelling and sniping are included on this list, whether you would agree
11 with that.
12 That was the question.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot agree with that.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please put the next question to the witness.
15 MS. EDGERTON:
16 Q. If investigations into this list have been ongoing, you would
17 have seen, wouldn't you, that there are records of contemporaneous
18 investigations that point to where it's been concluded that people on
19 this list have been victims of Serb shelling.
20 I'll give you another example. Let's go to number 1316; English
21 and B/C/S page 109.
22 Your entry for Vera Kovackovic says she was killed on 30
23 August 1993 by an artillery shell in Sarajevo. Information from the
24 centre for investigating war crimes -- pardon me, investigating crimes
25 against the Serbian people in Belgrade.
1 Now, first of all, where we see an entry at that says "Sarajevo,"
2 are we meant to infer Bosnian-held Sarajevo or Serb-held Sarajevo? What
3 kind of location -- what kind of precision are we meant to draw from that
4 kind of designation?
5 A. As can you see in each of these cases, it says this is
6 information from the centre for investigating crimes against Serb people
7 in Belgrade. That's what they had at that time. As you were able to
8 see, in some cases we have information from the office for tracing
9 missing persons. We have information from the black book by Toholj and
10 we have witness testimony as well. We always put in the nota bene where
11 the information came from and that's why I'm telling you, the
12 investigations are ongoing. They continue.
13 Now, are they quick enough? I, myself, am not satisfied. I'm
14 unhappy that we don't have more evidence included in the files.
15 JUDGE ORIE: I interrupt you because I'd like to hear an answer
16 to the question.
17 If, in this column, it says "Sarajevo," how do you interpret that
18 even if it comes from Belgrade sources? Do you interpret this as
19 Sarajevo Bosnian-held or Serb-held or both, or ... what's your
20 understanding of a reference to Sarajevo in this context?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It could be both.
22 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... you've answered
23 the question.
24 Please proceed.
25 MS. EDGERTON:
1 Q. And where it says absolutely nothing about the place of the
2 incident, are we similarly meant to infer that it is within Bosnian-held
3 Sarajevo or Serb-held Sarajevo?
4 A. Again, okay, there are a couple of cases here such as
5 Goran Kovackovic killed by a shell, information from the centre for
6 investigating crimes against Serb people in Belgrade, which means this
7 contains only information that was available at that time in 1996 or 1997
8 when these case files were compiled and when this list was made.
9 Q. So the answer is, it could be either one; right?
10 A. Yes. Yes, it could be both.
11 Q. Thank you. I think I'd like to leave the list for a while and
12 move on to an area that you were discussing in your evidence in-chief the
13 very first day you came here, and it was about Muslim arming before the
15 You talked about a shipment of 400 sniper rifles at transcript
16 page 37070 to 37073, and that you said was an event that happened in
17 1991. And then you talked about a document, D1108, that was issued by
18 the chef de cabinet of Delimustafic, ordering the relocation of weapons
19 and ammunition from Rakovica to Zlatiste.
20 Now, I just want to ask you a little bit about Rakovica. You
21 said Rakovica was guarded by the SJB of Ilidza. It's correct, isn't it,
22 that the forces of the Ilidza SJB were mainly Serb; right?
23 A. No. The chief of the police station was my colleague Edin Milic
24 and the ethnic structure was balanced. The chief of the police station
25 was Bosniak. I'm not talking about the heads of department for crime
1 prevention or other departments --
2 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... that's fine. You answered
3 my question with a no.
4 The police commander was Tomo Kovac; right?
5 A. Yes. But that's a lower portion than the chief of police
6 station, considerably lower.
7 Q. And in July 1995, Tomo Kovac was the deputy minister of the
8 interior for the Republika Srpska; right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Now you said also that you knew about the security situation in
11 the area of Rakovica at the time this was alleged to have happened, 1991.
12 And you knew that the area of Rakovica was ethnically mixed.
13 Now you would also know that by the end of May 1992 Rakovica, the
14 whole area of Rakovica had been taken over by Serb forces; right?
15 A. I'm talking about the July 1992 and --
16 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
17 A. -- there's a huge difference.
18 Q. I'm asking you, since you knew so much about the security
19 situation in the area of Rakovica at the date of this document which was
20 July 1991, you would know that by the end of May 1992 the whole area of
21 Rakovica had been taken by Serb forces. You knew that; right?
22 A. We're talking about the security situation from July 1991 when
23 the security was guaranteed to everyone. We had a joint police force and
24 all other joint things. There was no security risk in Rakovica at the
1 Q. You haven't answered my question at all. Did you know that by
2 the end of May 1992 Serb forces took the area of Rakovica?
3 A. It's not true that Serb forces took it. We lived there. We
4 couldn't occupy something where we lived. It was ours. How would we
5 take it over? How could Serb forces take it over? We lived there, we
6 were attacked. We were not the ones who were attacked. How could we
7 occupy our own places? My family has lived in Sarajevo for 150 years,
8 now there's no one. Thousands of my relatives had to leave Sarajevo.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, listen carefully to the question
10 Ms. Edgerton will now put to you.
11 MS. EDGERTON:
12 Q. Let's go back to time a little bit to March 1992. You're a
13 member of the police and a very senior member of the police so would you
14 have known that under Kovac's command in March 1992, the Serb police
15 blocked the MUP warehouse --
16 JUDGE ORIE: No speaking aloud. Mr. Mladic is -- no audible
18 Please proceed.
19 MS. EDGERTON:
20 Q. -- blocked the MUP warehouse at Dugi Potok and [Overlapping
21 speakers] ...
22 A. [Overlapping speakers] ...
23 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, don't interrupt Ms. Edgerton when she is
24 phrasing a question. You have an opportunity to answer to it but first
25 you have to listen.
1 MS. EDGERTON:
2 Q. -- and distributed arms to the Serbs. I'm simply asking because
3 you were clearly a senior member of the police at the time you were
4 familiar by your own admission with what was going on in the area of
5 Ilidza in 1991, I'm asking you if you knew about these events in
6 March and in May 1992.
7 A. In March 1992, there were no events at all except that the first
8 and the second barricades happened, where a member of a Serb wedding
9 party was killed. After that, in March, there were no more events. And
10 on 4 April, the war began in the territory of Sarajevo and that warehouse
11 was in the territory under the control of the MUP and the Army of
12 Republika Srpska. There was no need to block anything.
13 Q. Now I want to go to Zlatiste that you also talked about.
14 Now in discussing that document, you said, you describe Zlatiste
15 and you said it used to be a hotel, restaurant on top with warehouses
16 below. But my question to you is this. Apart from what you read in that
17 document, D1108, you actually had no personal knowledge that ammunition
18 and weapons from Rakovica might have been located to Zlatiste, did you?
19 It was only based on what you read in the document.
20 A. Yes. First of all, I said that based on documents. I spoke
21 primarily about 400 sniper rifles that went to Citluk, the Islamic
22 religious community drove it away in their van and I personally was
23 involved. And the Ministry of Interior of Republika Srpska found these
24 documents in Rakovica facility where it was obvious how much was shipped
25 away and already then in that year, I knew how much was shipped away from
1 which facility. That was a secret in July 1991 so how could I know it?
2 Q. Thank you. Now irrespective of whatever might have happened in
3 July 1991 and whatever weapons may or may not have been moved, you know
4 that by the beginning of April 1992, a part of the military had actually
5 moved to Zlatiste. It was under VRS control by April 1992. You know
7 A. Your information is totally incorrect. The JNA and the Army of
8 Republika Srpska had nothing to do with Zlatiste. The forces of the
9 Bosnian Serbs and the police liberated Zlatiste, I think, in June or
10 July 1992. Until that time, it was under the control of the BH army. I
11 know that because we were unable to communicate from Lukavica via
12 Zlatiste and Trebevic with Pale instead, we had to take the macadam
13 road --
14 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
15 A. -- Zlatiste was not in our hands.
16 You asked me about Zlatiste that was not in our hands on that
17 April, May, 1992, let alone before that. I mean, really.
18 Q. Now --
19 A. Nothing to do with any of this.
20 Q. You talked also, Mr. Tusevljak, about -- you talked about the
21 situation in Lukavica and you had a look at some video that you said
22 depicted some part of Grbavica. But I just want to get a couple of
23 things straight. And that was in your testimony the last time you came
24 here and today. I just want to get a couple of things straight. You
25 actually, before moving to Lukavica, you actually worked in the police
1 school in Vrace for a period, didn't you?
2 A. No, I never worked at the police school in Vrace. Only at the
3 very beginning of the war, I was in Nedzarici, because I am from
4 Nedzarici, and the seat of the Ministry of the Interior of
5 Republika Srpska in April and mid-June, I think, was temporarily at the
6 school in Vrace. And sometime in May 1992, we established a centre of
7 security services of the Romanija and Birac area and that's where I
8 worked, and its seat was in Vrace for perhaps about five days, because
9 Vrace was under constant fire, artillery and infantry fire. We had many
10 casualties, many people wounded, killed. The conditions were simply not
11 right for work and, therefore, on the basis of an order of the minister
12 of the interior, we withdrew to --
13 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... I just asked you whether or
14 not you worked there. Your answer was for a period of time temporarily,
15 perhaps for about five days.
16 Now I just want to stay with that area of town because you said
17 in your testimony in-chief I was in Grbavica very often during the war.
18 So let's stay with that area of town because I want to know what you
19 would have seen being in Grbavica. You would have seen the mortars in
20 that area of town. Grbavica isn't a big place. So you would have seen
21 them; right?
22 A. No, never. I never saw mortars in Grbavica. And I don't know of
23 any -- I wasn't at the actual front line but as far as I know in this
24 civilian area because I also lived in Grbavica, I had a refugee apartment
25 there, and that was the reason why I was there for a while, while the
1 centre was in Lukavica. That's why I was in Grbavica. And I never saw
2 any mortars in Grbavica. I'm now talking about the residential urban
3 area of Grbavica.
4 Q. Did you see the APCs, the APCs on Ozrenska street in the
5 immediate vicinity of the police school? Did you see the APCs?
6 A. When? May? When? Well, of course, we had police APCs and the
7 military had their own. And the command was there, the army command.
8 This is normal military weaponry. I saw tanks too.
9 Q. And where did you see the tanks in Grbavica?
10 A. I spoke about Ozrenska street now. The difference between
11 Ozrenska and Grbavica is perhaps a kilometre as the crow flies and if you
12 take a vehicle, it's 3 or 4 kilometres. You should know the
13 configuration of the terrain. This really has nothing to do with one
14 another. Grbavica -- I mean, do you know what a tank would be in
15 Grbavica? I mean, it's like this. It would have been destroyed with a
16 Zolja or Osa, the same second because it was visible this way from
18 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
19 A. Oh, all right.
20 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... tanks? That's all I asked?
21 A. You're talking about the periphery now, Ozrenska, I don't know.
22 Zagorska, and so on. I mean, the names of those streets, well, in that
24 JUDGE ORIE: In all fairness to the witness [Overlapping
25 speakers] ...
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Previous translation
2 continues] ... where is the front line.
3 JUDGE ORIE: -- where he did see the tanks in Grbavica. At the
4 same time, I establish that he started talking about tanks where you had
5 asked only about APCs.
6 Please proceed.
7 MS. EDGERTON:
8 Q. And you would have seen the sharpshooters; right?
9 A. No. I did not see any sharpshooters for the reasons that I have
10 already mentioned. Namely, I wasn't at the front line itself. Believe
11 me, I absolutely did not. How could I see a sharpshooter? If there are
12 any sharpshooters, they're at the very front line. They're not way back
13 at the fifth line. What did I see? Somebody sniping, carrying a sniper
14 rifle? What?
15 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Witness, you
16 haven't seen them. That's what you were asked for. Whether you could
17 have seen them, or where they were there, whether they should be close to
18 the lines or not is not something that was asked. You haven't seen it;
19 you've answered the question. Thank you.
20 MS. EDGERTON:
21 Q. If you were in Grbavica so much during the course of the war, you
22 know what the Serb army firing positions were. Don't you? Because they
23 were in the immediate vicinity of the police school, among other places.
24 A. When you talk to witnesses, I do apologise, a map would suffice
25 and then the Trial Chamber can be shown very clearly where the police
1 school is, where the Serb line is, where the Bosniak line is. Because
2 the MUP school is in Vrace. It's not at Grbavica. I know -- I mean, if
3 you didn't know at that time in Grbavica where the front lines were and
4 where the sniping was, you'd be dead.
5 Q. I'll give you a map.
6 MS. EDGERTON: 65 ter number 32903c which is a cutout from
7 65 ter number 32903 with the operative date of 19 December 1992.
8 Q. So, Mr. Tusevljak, this map depicts part of Grbavica, depicts
9 Grbavica and part of Vrace. It shows tanks moving along the road
10 immediately behind the police school and you see the police school marked
11 just near the stadium. And it shows tanks, APCs and machine-guns
12 throughout Grbavica and Vrace.
13 So you asked for the map.
14 A. What's the date of this map? Where were these tanks marked?
15 Which date? Which year?
16 Q. I've already said 1992 December.
17 So, Mr. Tusevljak, your evidence is that you didn't see any of
18 the combat equipment that was deployed throughout Grbavica and Vrace,
19 except for the tanks and the APCs; right?
20 A. Please, this is December 1992. In the school at Vrace in
21 December 1992 there was not a single policemen. So the school in Vrace
22 was completely abandoned. It was at the actual front line. My
23 communication with Grbavica went along the road from Lukavica, then I
24 went down this road, you see here? The one that's been marked here?
25 Towards Milavici.
1 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
2 A. Please, please. Then the road that goes down to Grbavica, it's
3 that road. That's where there was a sniper shooting all the time and it
4 was visible from Sarajevo all the time. I had no need to go right or
5 left anywhere because I did not belong to the Army of Republika Srpska so
6 there was no need for me to go to the front line itself. Just take a
7 look at this road. Just take a look at this road.
8 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... if you could do yourself a
9 favour, you have testified here three times now, and you know how
10 difficult it is for the interpreters to accurately interpret what you say
11 when you speak at such speed and when you don't make a pause between your
13 So I'm sorry to have had to speak so to you, but it causes the
14 interpreters difficulty to do their job when you speak so quickly. If I
15 could just encourage you to slow down.
16 A. I really do apologise to the interpreters. But, quite simply, I
17 get carried away. I'm going to repeat this, if it's not too hard. In
18 December --
19 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... would you like to mark
20 something on the map, Mr. Tusevljak.
21 A. I can speak about the journey I took where the police station
23 Q. Is that -- we're getting away from the question that I asked
24 before we go further and I need to clarify this for my own sake. Your --
25 is your evidence that, apart from the tanks and the APCs you've
1 mentioned, you didn't see the combat equipment and the mortars that this
2 map shows deployed in Grbavica and Vrace?
3 A. No, I did not see them. I've already told you actually when I
4 was talking about the first time it was April and May when I said that I
5 saw APCs and tanks. This is a map from the month of December. By then,
6 my headquarters was in Lukavica and I only went to my apartment or the
7 police station and it's this road here. I can mark it for you: From
8 Lukavica to Grbavica through Vrace.
9 Q. I think I'm okay with that. Thank you.
10 MS. EDGERTON: Could I have this as a Prosecution Exhibit,
11 please, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: No objections. Then Madam Registrar.
13 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter number 32903C receives exhibit number
14 P7522, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Before we decide on admission you say it's a
16 extract were another 65 ter, which means not in evidence otherwise.
17 MS. EDGERTON: Correct, it is not. It's 65 ter 32903. Which is
18 a map of the units of the 1st Corps and the District Staff of the defence
19 of Sarajevo dated 19 December 1992.
20 JUDGE ORIE: That most likely is a very large map.
21 MS. EDGERTON: Indeed.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Would it not be good nevertheless to know what this
23 is an extract of and to have that or the text, even if it has no printout
24 for us, but to even have an opportunity to look at it in e-court.
25 Because then if you'd then have the extract uploaded together with the
1 whole of the map, then at least we have an opportunity to look at it.
2 MS. EDGERTON: Absolutely.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Then it will be marked for identification, P7522,
4 awaiting uploading the large map.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 [Prosecution counsel confer]
7 JUDGE ORIE: One of my colleagues suggests that we -- we could
8 already admit this extract and then that you separately upload the whole
9 of it but I saw that you received further instructions as well so as I
11 Could you convey them to us.
12 MS. EDGERTON: Of course, I'm advised that the large map is
13 already uploaded with an English translation of the texts.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then let me just ...
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Then P7522 is admitted into evidence and do you went
17 then to tender the fully uploaded -- the entire map with English text and
18 that would be under number.
19 MS. EDGERTON: Yes.
20 THE REGISTRAR: P7523, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: And that was - let me just -
22 MS. EDGERTON: 65 ter number 32903.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes under that number. Then P7523 is admitted into
24 evidence, being the entire map.
25 Please proceed.
1 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
2 Q. Now I just want to talk about Lukavica for a second. You
3 actually moved to Energoinvest in Lukavica sometime during the summer of
4 1992; right?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Did you say yes or no?
7 A. I said yes.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We could not hear the
9 witness properly.
10 MS. EDGERTON:
11 Q. And when you say Energoinvest that's actually a really huge
12 complex, isn't it, and it's less than about 2 kilometres southeast of
13 Lukavica. Is that fair?
14 A. I mean, I don't know how you imagine Lukavica to be, but
15 Energoinvest being in Lukavica?
16 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
17 A. That is Lukavica.
18 Q. I'll show you another map and with can we look at 65 ter 32903B,
19 please. It's another cutout of the same map we've just admitted?
20 JUDGE ORIE: There may be some confusion. If you first ask
21 whether the witness moved to Energoinvest in Lukavica, and then later say
22 that Energoinvest is 2 kilometres from Lukavica, that's confusing.
23 MS. EDGERTON: Indeed, I was referring to the barracks which is
24 why I thought rather than speak I could clarify my situation with a map.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 MS. EDGERTON:
2 Q. Mr. Tusevljak, we have another cutout from the Lukavica area of
3 the map that we just spoke about, and if you still remember how to use
4 the markers in e-court for e-court, I'd like you to just draw a circle
5 around Energoinvest where your office was in Lukavica.
6 If it's difficult for you, if you look in the middle of the page
7 you see Electrotechnical Faculty written and then you see to the right of
8 that, Energoinvest.
9 A. [Marks]
10 Q. For the record, the witness has marked a circle with the location
11 of his office at Lukavica for whatever period of time he stayed there.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, which is not very clear. I think it is just a
13 little bit up from where the map reads Electrotechnical Faculty just
14 slightly to the right, slightly above, there's a very small, red, small
15 circle. That's the what the witness marked.
16 Ms. Edgerton, now knowing what the witness marked, wouldn't that
17 be time for a break.
18 MS. EDGERTON: Absolutely. If I could please have this as
19 another Prosecution Exhibit, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Madam Registrar.
21 THE REGISTRAR: The marked map receives exhibit number P7524.
22 JUDGE ORIE: P7524 is admitted into evidence.
23 Witness, you may follow the usher. We'll take a break and would
24 like to see you back at a quarter to 2.00.
25 [The witness stands down]
1 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at a quarter to 2.00.
2 --- Recess taken at 1.21 p.m.
3 --- On resuming at 1.45 p.m.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, I, a few times, I urged the witness
5 that there was no need to tell us why he didn't know something, but
6 you're triggering that by your questions, by including in your questions
7 why he should know. So if you first asked what he knows and then
8 depending on the answer, of course, you could further inquire. But this
9 triggers, again and again, long explanations as why the witness thinks he
10 should not know or that was not logical, but you're triggering it
11 yourself, and I'd like to draw your attention to that.
12 MS. EDGERTON: Understood. Thank you.
13 [The witness takes the stand]
14 JUDGE ORIE: You may continue, Ms. Edgerton.
15 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
16 Q. Mr. Tusevljak, to go onto another area, I just want to talk about
17 how you got your information. Because in your examination-in-chief, at
18 transcript page 38460, when you were discussing shelling on Serb-held
19 areas, my friend asked how you came to this information and you said two
20 things. You said you were informed about it by members of the army and
21 you also know about these locations because persons of Serb ethnicity who
22 came to Ilidza from these areas and who were interviewed indicated the
23 locations from which the firing was coming.
24 So with that reminder in place, I'd just like that ask you: Can
25 you tell us when exactly your office moved from Lukavica to Ilidza?
1 A. The office moved, I think, in March 1994. However, from
2 March until September, during that period of time, I worked at the seat
3 of the Ministry of Interior of Republika Srpska in Bijeljina and then
4 from the 1st of September, 1994, I returned to Ilidza yet again, where
5 the seat of the centre was, and I continued doing the same work, chief of
6 department for the crime prevention police. So September 1994 until the
7 end of war, I was in Ilidza.
8 Q. So the people, the line crossers, the refugees, the people who
9 escaped, the people that you referred to who crossed the line to
10 Serb-held territory and gave information to your colleagues and your team
11 in the police would have told you about the situation that they were
12 living in, in Bosnian-held territory; right?
13 A. Yes, they gave statements, and that is one of the ways in which
14 information was obtained.
15 Q. All right. So they would told you -- you spoke about Hrasnica in
16 your evidence in-chief. So they would have told you about the situation
17 for civilians in Hrasnica. That's how you got your information; right?
18 A. They spoke about their suffering and the suffering of others that
19 they had been aware of.
20 Q. And they would have told you, for example, about Hrasnica being
21 shelled; right?
22 A. No, that kind of question was not put to them. What they talked
23 about was their suffering, and we got the statements of the military
24 security. And, in those statements, there were references to positions
25 of enemy forces.
1 Q. So are you saying -- because you had talked earlier about your
2 team and your team going to do on-site investigations. You're saying you
3 didn't receive information about the situation for civilians from your
5 A. I was the supervisor then, and my colleagues interviewed these
6 persons and, of course, these interviews and statements were accessible
7 to me. There's an official report that was written up by one of my
8 operatives, and then I would have to read it whether there was enough
9 information there. I was not the signatory of the official report, but I
10 had to make it known to my supervisors by placing my initials there that
11 I had read these reports.
12 Q. All right then. Did you read reports about the civilian
13 population in Hrasnica?
14 A. Yes, the suffering of Serbs in Hrasnica.
15 Q. All right. Let's have a look at P6756, please?
16 JUDGE ORIE: In relation to that and before looking at it, you
17 said shelling of Hrasnica was not what they were asked about. Did you
18 consider that -- let's just for argument's sake assume that there was --
19 some shells were fired at Hrasnica, you didn't consider that to be part
20 of the suffering of the civilian population?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I'm telling you we did not
22 talk to them then. I mean, we talked about the suffering of the civilian
23 population with persons who were leaving Hrasnica. We did not talk to
24 them about shelling from Serb positions. I mean, we didn't. I mean, it
25 wasn't the topic of our conversations.
1 JUDGE ORIE: I still do not understand. I mean, are you saying
2 we didn't ask them because never any shell was fired at Hrasnica, or do
3 you say being shelled is not part of suffering?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Shelling was part of suffering, but
5 it wasn't only these people from Hrasnica. Any other witnesses. That's
6 not what was discussed with them. If they had been detained, what was
7 discussed was how they were treated, whether they witnessed killings and
8 other forms of torture. Whereas, the military security talked to them
9 about that topic, from where the enemy fired at Ilidza, Vojkovici,
10 Nedzarici. So that's for that area, and others, too.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
12 MS. EDGERTON:
13 Q. Before you call up that document, just to ask further about your
14 sources of information, you said the military security talked to them.
15 Parts of your team talked to them. Who else talked to them? What were
16 your sources of information from civilians who were leaving Sarajevo?
17 Who did you get the information from?
18 A. I received information from my employees whose job it was to talk
19 to these civilians about war crimes.
20 Q. And what kind of liaison did you have with, for example, your own
21 security services?
22 A. With members of the Ministry of Interior, horizontally and
23 vertically. We were in communication every day. These people worked on
24 the same floor as I.
25 Q. And so sharing information about the security situation would
1 have been a normal procedure for you?
2 A. We did not discuss the security situation. Crime prevention
3 police investigates crimes. There is a National Security Service. There
4 was at that time within the Ministry of Interior. There is military
5 security within the Army of Republika Srpska. We belonged to the public
6 security. Crime prevention police investigates criminal offences and in
7 that period, 1994/1995, we also investigated war crimes.
8 Q. All right. So let's have a look at - and not for broadcast,
9 please - P6756.
10 So this is a report from the SNB Ilidza about the situation in
11 Hrasnica from a very reliable source. And it says in the third full
12 paragraph: "Hrasnica is shelled the hardest from the direction of Gavric
13 Brdo, Gornji Kotorac, Vojkovici and Igman and it was reported that shells
14 occasionally also fly in from Igman mountain, due to misfire of Muslim
15 artillery. According to the Muslim authorities in Hrasnica, since the
16 beginning of the war shelling by Serbian forces caused severe to light
17 injuries to 3.000 persons. In that area, there are currently 5.500
19 Is this a crime that you would have investigated?
20 A. First of all, that is an Official Note from the National Security
21 Service, the department in Ilidza. The date is 6 May 1993 when I was
22 still in Lukavica, and this is the first time I see this Official Note.
23 Q. Is the shelling by Serbian forces that caused severe to light
24 injuries to 3.000 persons something you would have investigated?
25 A. Yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, if I read it well - and I think in all
2 fairness to the witness it should be clear to him as well - that what we
3 see under these bullet points is proceeded by a text saying the following
4 information was published through the newspapers in Sarajevo whereas you
5 introduced this material as a type of information you would receive from
6 people who crossed the lines, whereas it seems to be newspaper sources
7 rather than anything else, and I think would be fair to the witness that
8 you make that clear to him.
9 MS. EDGERTON: No problem, Your Honour.
10 Q. You see on top of the first bullet, Mr. Tusevljak, that the
11 following information was published, through the newspapers in Sarajevo.
12 You've seen that in your own language. So that's what I am reading to
14 A. You are obviously trying to deceive me now.
15 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is pure deceit.
17 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Witness, would
18 you refrain from expressing accusations. Rather, answer the question.
19 Please proceed when answering the question and refrain from
20 comments as you just made a second ago.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is evident now, Muslim forces
22 placed this information, which is false, for news publishing houses in
24 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...
25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: This translation into
1 English is not quite correct. For this sentence at least.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, we are also now informed that the translation is
3 perhaps not fully correct.
4 Witness, would be please so kind and I know that this is usually
5 not done but since I received this comment, could you read the line which
6 is the first line of the paragraph where the bullet points are think it
7 starts with "za novinarske kuce [B/C/S spoken]." Could you read that
8 line for us slowly, please.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "The following information has been
10 provided to the news publishing houses in Sarajevo. The area of Hrasnica
11 has an excellently organised hospital" --
12 JUDGE ORIE: I invited you had to read the first line primarily.
13 Now you earlier commented on who had provided this. And do you
14 have any knowledge about that? Because you say that you for the first
15 time see all this.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, that's all I can read from
17 this Official Note written by (redacted) But it's
18 obvious that this information was provided by Muslim forces.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Well, whether that's --
20 MR. S. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] ... that name of the
21 (redacted) because he was a protected witness.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Then we should have a redaction there.
23 Witness, I'm -- one second. In the ...
24 You said: "It is evident now Muslim forces placed this
25 information, which is false, for news publishing houses in Sarajevo."
1 Could you tell us what you know as to who provided this
2 information to the publishing houses in Sarajevo? If you have any
3 knowledge. If you don't have any knowledge, then please tell us as well.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Within their Supreme Command, there
5 was a special Department for Liaison -- for public relations and you will
6 see from statements and I've read hundreds of them, of the Bosnian army
7 members and --
8 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... I'm not
9 interested in general as to who provided information, both for this
10 information, where you said it's evident now, Muslim forces placed this
12 Do you have as any specific knowledge as who provided this
13 information which is contained in this Official Note?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From this Official Note, I cannot
15 see that.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
17 Please proceed.
18 MS. EDGERTON:
19 Q. Do you dispute that -- just having heard your comment with
20 respect to this document. Is it your position that residential buildings
21 in areas of Hrasnica were not shelled by Serb forces?
22 A. I don't have that information. I was not a member of the army,
23 nor did I have occasion to look where shells were falling in Hrasnica, if
24 any. I really don't know that.
25 MS. EDGERTON: Your indulgence for just a moment.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Then I have one small follow-up question.
2 You say the information is false and now asked about any shells
3 fired at Hrasnica, you say, I don't know it. Does that mean that at
4 least on that issue, you can't tell us whether this information is false
5 or not?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When the author of the text says
7 that information was placed, that verb, "placed," is used to denote that
8 some information was given to someone trying to present it as the truth.
9 If the meaning were different, the language would be different. It would
10 read, for instance, according to information or according to reports,
11 et cetera. That's the difference in interpretation.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Those are your conclusions, but you're still unable
13 to tell us whether information about the shelling of Hrasnica was false
14 or was not false?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Hrasnica and also on the
16 boundary towards the combat zone in Ilidza there were Muslim units and
17 their commends that were certainly shelled. I can confirm that. It was
18 a war zone on both sides.
19 JUDGE ORIE: A minute ago you said you had no knowledge about
20 that. But let's leave it to that.
21 Please proceed.
22 MS. EDGERTON:
23 Q. So in the information you received from people who had fled or
24 escaped or been exchanged or otherwise left Bosnian-held territory,
25 Bosnian-held Sarajevo, did you receive reports of shelling by VRS forces?
1 A. No, in those reports, I did not receive it.
2 Q. Now you've just commented on something that (redacted)
4 MS. EDGERTON: Redaction, please, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 MS. EDGERTON:
7 Q. You've just commented on one of your police colleagues had
8 drafted on the basis of information received. You've indicated that you
9 received information from the military and from your own team. Is it
10 your evidence that you received in your intel interviews no information
11 about shelling of Bosnian-held Sarajevo from these line-crossers and
12 people who were fleeing?
13 A. I've already said we did not conduct intel interviews. We took
14 statements on specific incidents of war crime and all the statements
15 taken from these persons in accordance with the Law on Criminal Procedure
16 from that time were submitted to the prosecutor. The reason we
17 interviewed these people was to get information about cases of war crimes
18 and to provide that information to the prosecution. The crime prevention
19 police did not have for a purpose to obtain any intelligence.
20 Q. And so nobody told you that they couldn't give information about
21 cases of war crimes within your mandate because they were too afraid to
22 go outside? Nobody told you that the shelling of Bosnian-held Sarajevo
23 by VRS forces kept them inside their homes, scared, too afraid to go out,
24 and they couldn't give any of the information you were after?
25 A. No, that's not correct. Nobody gave me that as a reason. And in
1 the books of the mortuary of the Kosevo Hospital that we reviewed there
2 are Serb victims whose cause of death is not indicated.
3 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, I see the break is in just a couple
4 of minutes and I would actually go to another area now, so maybe it's
5 a --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Then perhaps we should not do that.
7 MS. EDGERTON: -- good time.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, we'd like to see you back tomorrow morning
9 because we are not able to conclude your testimony today. I instruct you
10 again that you should not speak or communicate in of what way with
11 whomever about your testimony, whether that's testimony you've given
12 either in July or last week, or this week, or still to be given tomorrow.
13 If you understand this instruction, then you may now follow the usher and
14 we see back you tomorrow morning at 9.30.
15 [The witness stands down]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, before we break you put to the witness
17 that he received military information and there was no objection by
18 Mr. Lukic but, of course, the witness clearly said that the military
19 security talked to those who had crossed the lines about that topic from
20 where the enemy fired at Ilidza. So it was apparently not part of what
21 the witness's team discussed with the crossers. But to the extent you
22 suggest it that his answer would have included that the military did
23 that, the witness had clearly answered that the military was interested
24 in the enemy firing at Ilidza, not in any firing at Hrasnica from where
25 the crossers came. So I want to urge you to be very precise in not
1 misstating or even suggesting that that was something that the witness
2 has said.
3 We -- before we adjourn, could you tell us approximately where
4 you in terms of time?
5 [Prosecution counsel confer]
6 MS. EDGERTON: The estimate is that I have an hour and a half of
7 my estimated time left, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Another matter, and I'm also addressing you,
9 Mr. Lukic, if the Chamber understood your cross-examination well that it
10 was very much until now on the lists, et cetera, was focussing not on
11 exactly what happened with A, B or C but rather the reliability of the
12 information contained in that lest and there's no dispute about Serbs
13 falling victim of -- and Mr. Lukic I would like to ask you what your
14 estimate would be as to how much time you would need, but also keep this
15 in mind that it's not ultimately to establish this Mr. A, B or C were not
16 victims, and apparently there's an acceptance that there were quite a
17 number of victims, I take it, and I see Ms. Edgerton is nodding yes. So,
18 therefore, it's mainly about reliability.
19 Could you give us as indication as to what time you need as
20 matters stand now.
21 MR. S. LUKIC: Probably an hour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Probably an hour. Which then might result in an
23 early adjournment tomorrow, if it's true that we need altogether two and
24 a half hours.
25 We adjourn for the day, and we resume tomorrow, Tuesday, the 1st
1 of September, 9.30 in the morning, this same courtroom, I.
2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.18 p.m.,
3 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 1st day of
4 September, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.