1 Wednesday, 16 September 2015
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
9 IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 No -- yes. I do understand that the Prosecution wanted to raise
12 one preliminary matter.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, good morning, Mr. President, everyone.
14 I just managed to speak to Mr. Stojanovic about a small matter
15 that in -- we have made a -- the Prosecution has put together a small
16 booklet which is an index of the Srebrenica intercepts, just a real brief
17 summary of what they say by chronology, along with a DVD or a CD of the
18 actual intercepts. It's something that we have provided the Defence in
19 both languages, and something we -- I traditionally provide to the Court,
20 not as evidence because it's all in evidence already, but just as
21 something that may help you.
22 Mr. Stojanovic has agreed that, should you wish, we can provide
23 that and we have copies upstairs for you, if you would like it. And so
24 we -- we offer this, present this this morning.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, no objection that this little aid
1 will be given to the Chamber, and in the full understanding that it
2 doesn't add anything to the evidence but that it just is kind of a road
3 map through the evidence in relation to those intercepts.
4 If that is clear and accepted by the parties then we --
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ...
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, that's absolutely right, and we can bring
8 that down tomorrow if --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then we'll have to do one day without still but
10 we'll survive that. It's appreciated that both parties agreed on giving
11 this aid to the Chamber, and we're looking forward to receive it.
12 Nothing else. Then could the witness be escorted in the
14 [The witness entered court]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Popovic.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you
18 make a solemn declaration, of which the text is now handed out to you.
19 Mr. Usher, could you give the text to the witness.
20 Would you please make that solemn declaration, Witness.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
22 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
23 WITNESS: RADOVAN POPOVIC
24 [Witness answered through interpreter]
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated, Mr. Popovic.
1 Mr. Popovic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Stojanovic. You
2 find Mr. Stojanovic to your left. Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for
3 Mr. Mladic.
4 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
5 Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
6 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning. Thank you, Witness, for coming.
7 A. Good morning.
8 Q. Following our normal procedure in the courtroom, would you please
9 tell us your full name for the record.
10 A. I am Radovan Popovic.
11 Q. Mr. Popovic, was there a time when you gave a written statement
12 to the Defence team of General Mladic and answered the questions that
13 were put to you at the same time?
14 A. Yes.
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I should like to
16 call up in e-court 65 ter 1D01752.
17 Q. Mr. Popovic, you will be able to see on the screen the text in a
18 language that you understand, and in English, and I will ask you if you
19 recognise the signature here.
20 A. I do.
21 Q. Is it your signature?
22 A. Yes.
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Now could we look at the last
24 page in e-court.
25 Q. Mr. Popovic, on this page, can you identify the signature?
1 A. It is my signature.
2 Q. How about the date, 12 July 2014, was it written in your hand?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Mr. Popovic, when we were preparing yesterday and the day before
5 for your appearance in the courtroom and when you reviewed this
6 statement, would you now, after giving the solemn declaration, provide
7 the same answers to the questions that had been put to you; and does this
8 statement reflect a correct, faithful, and veracious picture of the
9 matters discussed in it?
10 A. Yes.
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I tender the
12 statement of Witness Radovan Popovic as a Defence exhibit.
13 JUDGE ORIE: In the absence of any objections, Madam Registrar.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D1752 receives number D1238,
15 Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honours, I
18 should like to read a short summary of the statement of
19 Witness Radovan Popovic.
20 Witness Radovan Popovic is a journalist by occupation and in the
21 course of 1995 he worked in the newspaper "Vojska," "Army," before
22 becoming the head of the photo centre in the newspaper "Vojska."
23 He worked together with a colleague, Ms. Biljana Djurdjevic, who
24 asked him to record on a video camera her wedding scheduled for
25 16 July 1995. On that day, he arrived at her apartment at around 8.00 in
1 the morning. He filmed the bride's preparation for the wedding. And,
2 around 10.00 a.m., he filmed the arrival of the groom, Zarko, and his
3 closest family and friends as well as the arrival of the best man and
4 bridesmaid, Ratko and Bosiljka Mladic. After that, he also filmed the
5 wedding ceremony at the church. And after that, they went on foot to the
6 restaurant Two Fishermen, where there was a luncheon and a celebration of
7 the wedding. Together with them there were the best man and bridesmaid,
8 General Mladic and his wife, and they were constantly around and on
9 camera. He filmed all the way up to 1700 hours when the VHS tape,
10 180 minutes long, was filled; and then having agreed with the young
11 couple to go and buy another VHS tape, he briefly left.
12 When he returned to the restaurant to continue filming,
13 General Mladic and his wife were no longer there.
14 Now, with your leave, Your Honours, I would like to put a few
15 questions to the witness.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Witness, would you please focus on paragraph 5, which is now
19 D1238, a Defence exhibit. Mr. Popovic, when you see that statement and
20 find paragraph 5, could you please tell us for the sake of precision, to
21 the best of your recollection, when was the church wedding ceremony over
22 and when did you arrive at the restaurant on the 16th of July, 1995?
23 A. The church wedding finished a little after 1.00 p.m., but we
24 stayed at the porch of the church for another half an hour because the
25 whole wedding party wanted to have their pictures taken with the young
1 couple. There were also other rituals, like throwing the wedding bouquet
2 over the bride's shoulder, et cetera. Then we moved on, and we arrived
3 at the Two Fishermen restaurant around 2.00 p.m.
4 Q. In your estimate, how far is the restaurant from the church?
5 A. Roughly, I would say 400, 500 metres. Not more than 500 metres.
6 Q. Did the wedding party walk there or go by car?
7 A. We all walked there.
8 Q. Was the best man, General Mladic, also in that procession
9 together with his wife, who was the bridesmaid, Bosiljka?
10 A. They never left the wedding party. They were always with us.
11 Q. Could we now look at paragraph 6 of your statement. We should
12 move to the next page. It's D138 [as interpreted].
13 Could you be more specific. This place that you refer to as
14 Zeleni Venac where you went to buy another VHS tape, how far is that from
15 the restaurant, Two Fisherman, where the luncheon was?
16 A. Zeleni Venac, the square, is about 15, 20 minutes' walk from the
17 restaurant, about 500 metres.
18 Q. Thank you. When the wedding was over, what did you do with those
19 two VHS tape, with the whole film -- or tapes, rather?
20 A. After coming back to the restaurant with the new tape, I inserted
21 it into the camera and continued filming. From 6.00 p.m. to 10.00 p.m.,
22 when we left the restaurant, I had another hour of footage on that new
23 tape; and - together with the newlyweds - I went to their home, where I
24 filmed another half-hour of footage.
25 When we all thought it was enough, I took out the tape from the
1 camera, and - together with the first tape - I gave them both to the
2 newlyweds and told them that it was my wedding gift to them.
3 Q. Did you ever have those tapes in your possession after that?
4 A. No, I did not.
5 Q. Do you remember, was there the technical possibility on those
6 tapes to put a time stamp on, the tape length, duration, and date?
7 A. I've filmed using my own camera, Panasonic M3000. It's a camera
8 that uses VHS tapes. And the whole time that I filled, by default, in
9 the right bottom corner there is a time stamp and the date, in the
10 day/month/year format. In the top right corner of the display, the
11 camera shows the whole time, how much of the tape has been used up to
12 that point.
13 Q. Thank you, Mr. Popovic, for these answers. These would all my
14 questions for now.
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.
17 Is the Prosecution ready to cross-examine the witness?
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Popovic, you'll now be cross-examined by
20 Mr. McCloskey. You find Mr. McCloskey to your right. Mr. McCloskey is
21 counsel for the Prosecution.
22 You may proceed.
23 Cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey:
24 Q. Good morning, Mr. Popovic.
25 A. Good morning.
1 Q. We see in your statement that you say that you left the
2 restaurant at 5.00 p.m. to go get new tapes; correct?
3 A. Yes. When I said "5.00 p.m.," I meant perhaps five minutes
4 earlier or five minutes later, but it's around 5.00.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: The statement says at about half past 5.00 or
6 6.00, unless I'm looking at the wrong statement.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: We best look at the statement. Paragraph 6 --
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Paragraph 6, yeah.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. The tape ran out at 5.00. I
10 gave myself a break and I waited for a convenient moment to tell the
11 newlyweds. The first opportunity I got, I told them that the tape had
12 run out and what they wanted me to do. I suggested going to the
13 Zeleni Venac square to buy a new tape and continue filming. They agreed.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY:
15 Q. Okay. Let me just -- Mr. Stojanovic, in his summary, said
16 1700 hours. And I made a mistake when I said your -- the statement was
17 at 5.00 p.m. but you then agreed with me and said it was 5.05 or maybe
18 five minutes to 5.00 and then His Honour corrected us all. And so let's
19 get real about this a bit. We can see from your statement that you first
20 spoke to Mr. Dundjer on January 2012 about an incident that occurred --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, you're on your feet. Do you want to
22 intervene now or do you want to wait until Mr. McCloskey has formulated
23 his question?
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Just to avoid confusion on the
25 record, because my short summary was mentioned. If we look at
1 paragraph 5, the last sentence, it should be shown to the witness because
2 it could cause confusion. And the problem is also what I said in the
3 short summary.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's just that confusion that I would like to
5 address the Court to.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, you should have refrained from
7 making this comment.
8 Please proceed.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY:
10 Q. So, sir, we see that you talked to Mr. Dundjer and -- on
11 10 January 2012 and then on 12 July 2014. This is something we know
12 happened in 1995, so many, many years after the fact. You've made a
13 mistake, I've made a mistake. It's certainly possible, isn't it, sir,
14 that you went over to that store to get a new tape maybe 30 minutes,
15 maybe 45 minutes even, different than you've actually recalled?
16 A. No, that's not possible.
17 Q. How -- how can you be so sure after all these years, and you just
18 fouled up the time when I asked you about it? You said it was at 5.00
19 when your statement says 5.30.
20 A. The tape ran out exactly at 5.00 p.m. I remember that. I'm a
21 photographer. I have photographic memory.
22 Q. Okay. That's fine. Let's go on.
23 JUDGE ORIE: But before we do so, Witness, would you carefully
24 listen to the questions. If someone asks you: At what time did the tape
25 run out? - you're supposed to tell us when the tape ran out. If you were
1 asked: When did you leave the restaurant? - then you're supposed not to
2 tell us when the tape ran out but then you're supposed to tell us at what
3 time you left the restaurant.
4 Would you please keep that clearly in mind in order to avoid any
6 And perhaps, Mr. McCloskey, if you perhaps emphasise in your
7 question exactly the time of what you're interested in, that might even
8 prevent confusion to arise.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, thank you, Mr. President.
10 Q. Were there other people taking photographs at the wedding?
11 A. There was a photographer, but I don't know him.
12 Q. So was that person taking still photos or video photos or both?
13 A. He just took photographs, still photos.
14 Q. And while you were at the restaurant, did General Mladic ever
15 leave your vision?
16 A. As far as I recall, General Mladic did not leave the restaurant
17 itself at any time.
18 Q. That wasn't my question. My question was: While you were at the
19 restaurant, did General Mladic ever leave your field of vision?
20 A. No. If I may, I would like to clarify and explain how that would
21 be possible.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. I'm a professional cameraman. When I set my camera, let's say
24 I'm recording the guests dancing, as the camera is doing its work, I look
25 around the hall, and I pay particular attention to the best man, matron
1 of honour, and the bride and groom, so as not to miss an important detail
2 or a custom or something of the sort. Hence, I kept the bride and groom
3 in my field of vision as well as their best man and matron of honour,
4 even when camera was not recording them.
5 Q. And so you're saying since the time you arrived at that
6 restaurant, I think what you've said is roughly - what? - 2.30, until you
7 left, at about 5.00, Mladic was in your field of vision the entire time,
8 never left for a minute or two or five or ten?
9 A. As far as I recall, we arrived in the restaurant around 2.00 p.m.
10 For the next three hours, all that time, I had the bride and groom and
11 the best man and matron of honour in my field of vision.
12 Q. And your photographic memory would have remembered General Mladic
13 smoking and drinking?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And, sir, you are saying today in this courtroom, under oath,
16 that General Mladic never excused himself for any reason, be it the
17 restroom or some other reason that -- during those entire three hours?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And so I take it you didn't use the restroom either?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And, sir, we have an intercepted conversation of General Mladic
22 getting briefed by his Main Staff at 4.15 p.m. that day and he would have
23 been on the telephone. And within a couple of hours after the restaurant
24 that he was with you, he is also on the telephone being filmed by a video
25 camera by some folks from Canada speaking about military matters.
1 So go back to your photographic memory. If you, sir, were
2 photographing or with General Mladic at 4.15, sir, I guarantee you would
3 have seen him speaking on the telephone. Do you remember that?
4 A. I did not see any such thing.
5 Q. And, sir, you're a professional journalist. At the time you were
6 for an outfit called "Vojska." That's "Army," right? What army?
7 A. It was the official publication of the General Staff of the armed
8 forces of Serbia and Montenegro.
9 Q. Surely as the journalist you have heard about the massacres at
10 the Branjevo farm that occurred all afternoon on 16 July while you were
11 at this wedding. Had you heard about the massacres that have alleged to
12 have been happening at the very time you were at the wedding, as a
13 professional army journalist or otherwise?
14 A. I know that there were things going on around Srebrenica in the
15 course of those few days. I also know that many people died there, but I
16 did not investigate or try to find out in detail about what had happened
17 there. My editor-in-chief never asked me to do anything of the sort, nor
18 did he ask any other journalist to do that. I might even call it taboo,
19 a topic that was not discussed at the time. I do not recall any
20 particular stories surrounding the Branjevo farm.
21 Q. What do you mean by "things"? You say "things were going on
22 around Srebrenica." Was that the professional jargon of journalists at
23 the time for mass murder? What do you mean by "things"?
24 A. It is jargon. That's how I used the word "things." Horrible
25 things happened there. Many people were killed. Many people died.
1 Perhaps the term is not an adequate one, but that was the way I used it.
2 Q. So you acknowledge that you have learned that the horrible things
3 that happened were the mass executions of Muslims from Srebrenica?
4 A. I learned about it all much later.
5 Q. Is that yes or no?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. So last question: Given that you were the professional
8 journalist that was filming the Commander-in-Chief of the Main Staff, the
9 commander of the VRS, the commander of the 10th Sabotage Detachment, and
10 the man that's on trial for those murders that happened on the 16th, it
11 never dawned on you to look into whether or not the man you were filming
12 was a -- was -- or could be responsible for those murders?
13 A. That was not my job.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Nothing further, Mr. President.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Judge Fluegge would have one or more questions
18 for you.
19 Questioned by the Court:
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Popovic, you were asked by the Prosecutor
21 about Mr. Mladic at the wedding party, if he was drinking and smoking.
22 Can you give some more details? What did he drink? How much and which
23 kind of drinks?
24 A. Yes. Mladic smoked some filter cigarettes, although I couldn't
25 tell which. He drank mineral water. When he presented a toast, it was
1 the only time when he had a brandy.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: How many cigarettes did he smoke?
3 A. Many, I think.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Where was he when he was smoking?
5 A. He was seated at the table next to the bride and groom. Everyone
6 smoked, including the groom.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I have a few more questions for you about the
9 time. You said you ran out of your tape at 5.00. You also said that you
10 then took some time off. What did you do then, when you did take some
11 time off?
12 A. I had a cup of coffee and smoked a cigarette and then left to buy
13 a tape.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Now you ran out of your tape at 5.00. A
15 cigarette and a coffee would be how much time?
16 A. Ten to 15 minutes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: And walking to the square, buy the tape, and come
18 back, how much time was that?
19 A. Around 40 minutes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. One of your previous answers was:
21 "Zeleni Venac, the square is about 15, 20 minutes' walk from the
22 restaurant, about 500 metres."
23 Is that still your evidence?
24 A. Yes. It takes me 15 to 20 minutes to get there and the same time
25 to go back. Let's say I need five minutes to purchase the tape and this
1 brings us at around 40 minutes all together.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Five hundred metres, that takes you 15 to 20
4 A. Yes. Not 20, 15 minutes, but then you need some time to find the
5 shop. You also need to cross the street without any rush.
6 JUDGE ORIE: During the time when you took a break for coffee and
7 a cigarette, where were you?
8 A. I was seated at a table which had been designated for the
10 JUDGE ORIE: You mean still in the restaurant?
11 A. Yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Do you know what the usual walking speed of a person
13 is, on average? I mean, if you would normally walk, how many kilometres
14 would you walk in an hour?
15 A. Yes, I do know. It is 4 kilometres.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Four kilometres.
17 A. Can I clarify?
18 JUDGE ORIE: No -- well, there's nothing to clarify, I think, for
19 4 kilometres. You say it's 4 kilometres. Now if it's 4 kilometres, then
20 walking 1 kilometre would take you 15 minutes. Would you agree?
21 A. I agree.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. If I would add five minutes for crossing the
23 street to be cautious, lost, five minutes lost time, if I would then add
24 five minutes for trying to find a shop - apparently you knew where the
25 shop was or at least where approximately it was - and then how much time
1 did you use in buying that tape?
2 A. Since it is one of the busiest streets in Belgrade, it is
3 impossible to achieve a speed of 4 kilometres per hour. It's no jogging
4 route. There are shop windows that draw your attention along the way. I
5 was also looking for perhaps another shop where I could buy a tape. So I
6 went from one shop to the next, and it was only at Zeleni Venac that I
7 found a shop with tapes. I lost time and speed en route.
8 I think it clarifies why it took me so long.
9 JUDGE ORIE: So, all together, you were 50 minutes,
10 approximately, away from the restaurant?
11 A. Maybe slightly less. It is difficult to tell you to the minute,
12 but I was certainly away for 40 minutes, no dilemma about that.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Now, what you just told me a minute ago is that the
14 tape ran out at 5.00, that you took a coffee and smoked a cigarette, not
15 taking that much time. In your statement, I read that about half past
16 5.00 or 6.00 in the afternoon you agreed with the bride and the groom to
17 go to Zeleni Venac neighbourhood. Earlier, when trying to find details,
18 you more or less suggested that you would have left not later than
19 quarter past 5.00.
20 A. I stand by my statement, that I left the restaurant at quarter
21 past 5.00.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Well, your statement says different. Your statement
23 says that it was about half past 5.00 or 6.00 in the afternoon that you
24 agreed with the bride and the groom to go to Zeleni Venac. That's what
25 your statement says. In court, you said that at 5.00 you took time for a
1 coffee and a cigarette, which would take you ten to 15 minutes.
2 Now which of the two is the accurate description of the timing?
3 A. Can you show me where it is where I said that I left the
4 restaurant at half past 5.00 or 6.00? What statement was that?
5 JUDGE ORIE: I read to you: "Since the atmosphere was" --
6 paragraph 6 of your statement, which is before you on your screen I take
8 "Since the atmosphere was nice and I did not have any more tape
9 for recording, about half past 5.00 or 6.00 in the afternoon I agreed
10 with the bride and groom to go to Zeleni Venac neighbourhood."
11 So therefore, that must have been to agree that you would go
12 somewhere, that's only possible before you have left, isn't it?
13 A. You are right, but then it goes on and it reads:
14 "When I returned to the Dva Ribara to continue taping, it was
15 around 6.00."
16 It is possible -- it impossible that I would leave at 6.00 and
17 return at 6.00. So I left at quarter past 5.00, returning just before
19 JUDGE ORIE: You were asked whether you had reviewed your
20 statement and whether everything was accurate. You didn't say: I told
21 something in paragraph 6 which is impossible; therefore, I want to
22 correct that. You didn't say that, though given an opportunity to make
23 any corrections you'd like to make.
24 A. Correct. It was a mistake.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, any questions in re-examination?
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Just a few. I need to clarify
2 some things.
3 Re-examination by Ms. Stojanovic:
4 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Popovic, kindly direct your attention to the
5 question put to you by the Bench, referring to the first sentence in
6 paragraph 6.
7 To the best of your recollection, at what time do you believe you
8 bought the tape at Zeleni Venac?
9 A. At half past 5.00.
10 Q. Please have a look at paragraph 6, all of it, and while reading
11 your B/C/S version, can you tell us what this reference to "half past
12 5.00 or 6.00" actually means?
13 A. I had in mind the time when I purchased the tape.
14 Q. I would like to ask you to slowly read the first sentence of
15 paragraph 6.
16 A. "Since the mood was good and I did not have any more tape to
17 record, about half past 5.00 to 6.00 in the afternoon I agreed with the
18 bride and groom to go to Zeleni Venac neighbourhood and buy another VHS
19 cassette in order to continue recording."
20 Q. Thank you. When you say in your statement "half past 5.00 to
21 6.00," in your statement that you signed, what does it refer to?
22 A. It refers to the time when I bought that other tape.
23 Q. Thank you, Mr. Popovic. On behalf of General Mladic's Defence,
24 we have no further questions.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, do you have further questions?
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Very, very briefly.
2 Further cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey:
3 Q. Sir, you've described how conscientious you were and how
4 important it was for you to tape these important things. Yet when the
5 tape, as you say, runs out at 5.00, you kick back, have a cigarette, and
6 it takes you a while to get back. So you missed quite a bit of -- of the
7 party and General Mladic, I take it. Is that right?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Wasn't General Mladic at the restaurant when you -- when the tape
10 stopped and you started smoking?
11 A. He was in the restaurant.
12 Q. So you weren't taping from the time the tape stopped and the time
13 that you got back from this shop with the -- with the tape. So you
14 missed all of that good taping time; right?
15 A. I missed the departure of the best man, and I was sorry about
16 that, but it was not my fault. I didn't know the best man would leave so
18 Q. It makes more sense, doesn't it, that you stopped the tape or the
19 tape stopped after General Mladic left?
20 A. It would have been nice if it happened that way, but it wasn't --
21 it didn't.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: I have nothing further.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I have one question left for you.
25 You went to the shop where you bought the videotape and you
1 returned. You explained to us what made it relatively slowly for going
2 that 500 metres one way, 500 metres another way.
3 Now, did you slow down similarly on the way to the shops, still
4 trying to find shops or not knowing where the shop was, or did you also
5 on your way back to the restaurant take similar time looking at shop
6 windows? I mean, was there any -- was going to the shop any slower than
7 returning from the shop to the restaurant?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: How much approximately? I mean, what -- if you said
10 you were away for 40 minutes, how much time did it take to you get to the
11 shop and how much time did it take you to get back to the restaurant?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The difference is maybe five
14 JUDGE ORIE: I have no further questions.
15 Mr. Stojanovic, has the -- have the questions of the Bench
16 triggered any further questions?
17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, I have nothing.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Popovic, this concludes your testimony.
19 I'd like to thank you very much for coming a long way to The Hague and
20 for having answered the questions that were put to you by the parties and
21 also questions put to you by the Bench, and I wish you a safe return home
23 You may follow the usher.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 [The witness withdrew]
1 JUDGE ORIE: We went a bit beyond the usual time until the break.
2 Has the Defence another witness on standby, Mr. Stojanovic?
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Unfortunately, Your Honour, no.
4 As you know, the next witness and his proofing was conditioned by
5 obligation towards the Canadian government, and at this moment our
6 colleague Mr. Ivetic is working with the witness. He will be in the
7 courtroom tomorrow.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Which means that we will not have a long session.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE ORIE: We have an agenda with quite a few administrative
11 matters. We'd like to deal with those after the break. That will not
12 take very, very long, certainly not a whole session; and after that,
13 we'll adjourn for the day.
14 Therefore, we'll take a break now. We will resume at 11.00.
15 --- Recess taken at 10.38 a.m.
16 --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.
17 JUDGE ORIE: The Judges meanwhile have received the index of
18 significant intercepted communications related to Srebrenica.
19 There was another matter you would like to raise, Mr. McCloskey.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: And, Mr. President, just so you know, this is
21 most of the intercepts but some have come in at various times that came
22 in after the book, but this is most of the Srebrenica intercepts and
23 covers the significant -- most of the significant ones.
24 In addition, there was one other matter that I owe you from a
25 good while back. It was the -- back in the 18th of December, 2014,
1 during the testimony of Milovan Milutinovic, a summary of a statement
2 from the Dutch Institute of War Documentation came into evidence, and you
3 strongly suggested it would be helpful if there was an audio it would
4 assist the Court in reviewing the matter and the testimony. And so we
5 took it upon ourselves to request the Dutch government to see if there
6 was an audio, and to see if we could get that, and we are still working
7 on that and hope to get a resolution very soon.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Did you receive something from the Dutch
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: We received various communications and we're
11 still working on it, or we're -- we've had a glitch here or two. So it
12 looks like it's -- it's -- we're going to get an answer very soon, is
13 what I'm told.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, as soon as you need the assistance of the
15 Chamber in trying to get from the Dutch government which you think you --
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, we actually sent them a transcript of your
17 request so they knew exactly where it was coming from, from basically all
18 of us here at the ICTY, the Defence, the Chambers, the Prosecution, so I
19 think they understood, but I -- hopefully we'll be back to you with an
20 answer very soon or a request for some help.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand that it is now close to a --
22 nine months that you have not received what you requested. I would say
23 if you could inform us within the next -- when in six weeks from now
24 whether you have received anything, yes or no, because then it might be
25 time to speed up matters and to see that at least we receive an answer
1 within one year.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Absolutely.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. McCloskey, for raising that matter.
4 Then I'll start with the -- I would say the most urgent one which
5 is about the expert reports of Mile Poparic and Zorica Subotic.
6 On the 13th of May, the Prosecution requested the Chamber to
7 exclude portions of three of the expert reports co-authored by
8 Mile Poparic and Zorica Subotic prior to their testimony. As Subotic is
9 due to testify next week, the Chamber informs the parties that it will
10 deny the Prosecution's request and that it will differ its decision on
11 admission of the three reports until after the witnesses have testified
12 and a decision will be filed in due course.
13 Then for the next item I'd like to brief move into private
15 [Private session]
11 [Open session]
12 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
14 On the 26th of August of this year, during the testimony of
15 Svetlana Radovanovic, P7513, a set of documents related to the exhumation
16 at Sremska Mitrovica, was marked for identification and placed under
17 seal, pending the provision of the complete English translation. This
18 can be found at transcript pages 38323 to -330.
19 On the 9 September, the Prosecution informed the Chamber and
20 Defence via an e-mail that the complete translation has been uploaded
21 into e-court under doc ID X019-4350-EDT.
22 The Chamber wonders whether there's any objection to the
23 admission of that new, now fully translated document?
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we'll be able to
25 respond in a very short time, perhaps in a few days time before the end
1 of the working week, if that suffices.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE ORIE: In order to keep our agenda short, the Chamber
4 already hereby instructs the Registry to attach the new translation to
5 P7513 and admits P7513 into evidence under seal.
6 The Defence has an opportunity to revisit the matter this week.
7 The reason why we are proceeding in this way is because it's only the
8 translation which is new, whereas you had already access to the document
9 in its original language, Mr. Stojanovic. But, still, if there's
10 anything in relation to the translation to be raised, you have an
11 opportunity to do it this week.
12 Then I move onto my next item which deals with the remaining
13 issue from the testimony of Goran Krcmar.
14 On 3rd of March of this year, P7171, an UN Security Council
15 document, was marked for identification pending agreement between the
16 parties as to the excerpt to be tendered. On the 20th of August, the
17 excerpt was admitted as Exhibit P7171, and this is can be found on
18 transcript page 38112 and -113. On the 24th of August, the Defence
19 requested via an e-mail that two paragraphs be added to the exhibit. On
20 the 9th of September, the Prosecution advised, again via an e-mail, that
21 it had uploaded all excerpts, including the additional two paragraphs,
22 into e-court as documents bearing Rule 65 ter 32099b. I take it, in view
23 of the history, that there's no objection against admission,
24 Mr. Stojanovic. The Chamber then hereby instructs the Registry to
25 replace P7171 with the new excerpt of which I read a minute ago the 65
1 ter number.
2 I move to my next item, which is a remaining issue from the
3 testimony of expert witness Thomas Parsons.
4 Pursuant to its notice of disclosure of expert reports related to
5 the Tomasica mass grave dated 26th of August, 2014, the Prosecution
6 tendered document bearing Rule 65 ter number 31088, which is an ICMP
7 spreadsheet of DNA identifications. However, this document was not used
8 during the witness's testimony on the 29th of June, 2015. If the Chamber
9 does not hear from the Prosecution within seven days, the Chamber will
10 consider this document to be formally withdrawn.
11 Then I deal with the next item, which is a remaining issue from
12 the testimony of Vinko Nikolic.
13 On the 5th of February of this year, D893, a table of concordance
14 listing the adjudicated facts included in Vinko Nikolic's witness
15 statement, was marked for identification pending verification of the
16 information contained in it. On the 27th of August, the Defence advised
17 the Chamber and the Prosecution via an e-mail that a revised table
18 bearing Rule 65 ter number 1D05324a had been uploaded into e-court.
19 Absent any objections from the Prosecution, the Chamber hereby instructs
20 the Registry to replace the current version of D893 with the document
21 bearing Rule 65 ter number 1D05324a and admits D893 into evidence.
22 I now move to a remaining issue of the testimony of
23 Dragisa Masal.
24 On the 31st of March of this year, a press report from the
25 "Los Angeles Times" concerning the shelling of Sarajevo, was marked for
1 identification as P7233 pending a verification of its translation,
2 transcript page 33385 to -390. On 28th of August, the Prosecution
3 e-mailed the Chamber stating that CLSS stood by the accuracy of its
4 original translation. The Chamber wonders whether the Defence has any
5 additional submissions with regard to the admission of P7233.
6 Mr. Stojanovic.
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] At this point in time, I am
8 unable to respond. I know there was an issue with the translation and,
9 with your leave, I would kindly ask for some additional time until the
10 end of this week to check it out.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You have time until the end of this week and a
12 short message, either makes submissions or that there are no further
13 objections, would do and we would then decide whether or not to admit
14 this document.
15 I now move to a remaining issue from the testimony of
16 Mile Dosenovic, and it is about P7507.
17 During the testimony of Mile Dosenovic on the 18th of August of
18 this year, an audiotape was marked for identification pending the
19 provision of the transcript of the recording and the related English
20 translation. This can be found at transcript pages 37933 to -935. On
21 the 10th of September, the Prosecution advised via an e-mail that it
22 uploaded the transcript and the translation into e-court under doc IDs
23 T001-1674-A-BCS and T001-1674-A-ET.
24 Any objections as far as the Defence is concerned?
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] None, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Then the Chamber hereby the Registry to attach the
2 transcript and the translation to P7507 and admits P7507 into evidence.
3 Then the last item on my agenda deals with the remaining issue
4 from the testimony, again, of Mile Dosenovic, it's about P7508.
5 On 18th of August of this year, P7508, an information report
6 regarding the location of the former VRS Drina Corps command in
7 Vlasenica, was marked for identification because the Defence disputed the
8 determination of the elevation of a building as set out in the report and
9 the B/C/S translation was pending. This can be found at transcript pages
10 37977 to -979. The Defence did not provide any further submissions
11 despite the Chamber instructing the Defence to report back on the issue
12 within three weeks. The Prosecution advised on the 28th of August, 2015,
13 via an e-mail that it had uploaded the translation into e-court under
14 doc ID 0687-4329-ET.
15 Mr. Stojanovic, the question, of course, arises whether there
16 would be any objections, also in view of the fact that further
17 submissions were not made?
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. We sent the
19 message to our associates to check these altitudes according to contour
20 lines, and I believe we received an answer yesterday. By the end of the
21 week, we will send you a short e-mail to inform you whether we agree with
22 these markings regarding altitudes on this map.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Well, of course, I don't see whether can you see
24 that on a map, but I think the main issue was the altitude or the
25 elevation of the top of a building rather than any natural feature. But
1 we'll wait for any submission you'll make later this week and leave the
2 matter on hold.
3 However, we already instruct the Registry to attach the
4 translation to P7508 and we'll postpone then the decision on admission
5 until we've further heard from the Defence.
6 Is there any other matter either party would like to raise?
7 Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, I can get back to you on the
9 Parsons exhibit, 65 ter 31088. That was one of the older spreadsheets.
10 We dealt with updated spreadsheets in the testimony, so we can withdraw
11 that 65 ter number.
12 JUDGE ORIE: That is hereby on the record and it concerned 65 ter
13 number 31088 and no exhibit number was yet assigned in any way, either to
14 MFI or to do anything else. So therefore, that is now on the record,
15 that the Prosecution has withdrawn it.
16 If there's no other matter either party would like to raise,
17 we'll adjourn for the day, and we'll resume tomorrow, Thursday, the 17th
18 of September, 2015, 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, I.
19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 11.25 a.m.,
20 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 17th day of
21 September, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.