1 Tuesday, 22 September 2015
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 No preliminaries were announced.
8 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
10 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
12 Is the Defence ready to call its next witness?
13 MR. LUKIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Yes, we are. We are
14 calling our ballistic expert, Ms. Zorica Subotic.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
16 [The witness entered court]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Ms. Subotic.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you
20 make a solemn declaration that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth,
21 and nothing but the truth. May I invite you to make that solemn
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
24 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
25 WITNESS: ZORICA SUBOTIC
1 [Witness answered through interpreter]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated.
3 Ms. Subotic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Lukic. You'll find
4 Mr. Lukic to your left. Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.
5 You may proceed, Mr. Lukic.
6 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Examination by Mr. Lukic:
8 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Ms. Subotic.
9 A. Good morning.
10 Q. For the record, will you tell us your full name.
11 A. My name is Zorica Subotic.
12 Q. Ms. Subotic, have you made reports for the Defence of
13 General Mladic relating to incidents in Sarajevo?
14 A. Yes.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we display on our screens first
16 of all 1D05496.
17 Q. Because of the numbers, we'll follow this sequence, but later
18 we'll start with another paper. Let me ask you, do you recognise this
19 cover page?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did you participate in the writing of this report?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. With whom?
24 A. With Mr. Mile Poparic, who is the co-signatory.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see 1D05497.
1 Q. Ms. Subotic, did you participate in the writing of this expert
2 analysis of the use of modified air bombs in the Sarajevo area in 1994
3 and 1995?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. With whom did you write this paper?
6 A. With Mr. Mile Poparic and Ms. Mirjana Andjelkovic Lukic.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let us see 1D5498.
8 Q. Ms. Subotic, we now have before us the expert report for the
9 Defence of mortar attacks in the Sarajevo area in 1992-1995. Can you
10 identify this document?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did you work on its drafting?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Together with whom?
15 A. With Mr. Mile Poparic, expert for weapons and military equipment.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let us now look at 1D05906.
18 Q. We have before us a document. Do you recognise this document?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. It concerns what?
21 A. We put in some corrections that we believe clarify the
22 document -- in fact, the documents that we produced, and we noticed that
23 these corrections were needed during proofing for this testimony.
24 Q. When did you make these corrections and when did you hand them
25 over to the Defence team?
1 A. I don't know the exact date, but perhaps seven or ten days ago.
2 Maybe later. I really don't know. Because we continued working on them
3 and we added more and more.
4 Q. We can see that the corrections were made concerning the use of
5 modified air bombs on the first page.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did you also make corrections on other reports that you produced?
8 A. Yes, we did. We made corrections for all the three documents
9 that my colleagues and I produced and the document that relates to the
10 use of infantry weapons in the area of Sarajevo.
11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Assault weapons.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] 1D05907 is the next document we need.
13 Can we see the next page of this -- the second page of this report? We
14 have to go back to 1D05906. Let's look at page 3.
15 Q. We can see here at the bottom of the page in B/C/S, but I can't
16 see it in English, that picture 82 has been corrected. But I do not see
17 that correction made -- oh, yes, I do see it.
18 Could you explain briefly?
19 A. When analysing this incident and while preparing for this
20 testimony, we noticed that we had analysed in this incident --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
22 MR. WEBER: My apologies, but just I know it's going to be a long
23 course of examinations, but just so we could have a clear record as we
24 go. If we're going to be referring to "an incident," if we could at
25 least on the record have some indication of what event we are talking
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And if there are any corrections, then of
3 course to know what exactly they are corrections to.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. You have heard this, Ms. Subotic. Just tell us briefly what this
6 is about?
7 A. Let's go to the beginning. It's incident G-7. That's how we
8 marked it. It took place on 4 February 1994 in Dobrinja. When in the
9 street of liberators of Sarajevo, in the street, in the play field, this
10 incident happened very close to the street. That's the incident we are
12 And now we can go back to picture 82.
13 Q. What is the correction?
14 A. The correction is as follows. If you look at this, you will see
15 that we placed these markings back to the site of the incident, and the
16 entire analysis of this incident, unlike the other incidents, was made
17 from the place of firing. We marked the direction of descent from the
18 place of firing instead of doing what we did in the rest of the paper,
19 marking the descent from the place where the shell landed.
20 Q. And what is the correction then? In the calculation of what,
21 relating to what?
22 A. There is practically no correction. All the conclusions remain
23 the same. They are what they are. But we just aligned this incident
24 with the remaining ones in the report, marking the direction of descent
25 from the place where the shell landed. And that's the only correction
1 which you can see from the picture.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask you, what exactly do you mean by "the
3 direction of descent"?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I mean the incoming trajectory of
5 the projectile to the site, the bearing of descent. The azimuth.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Which is therefore the direction of the origin
7 of fire from -- seen from the place where the shell landed. Is that well
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Exactly.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I'm confused, because in that direction, of course,
11 first the shell goes up and then descends, so -- but I now better what
12 you mean by that. Then you say "the place of firing," is that a known
13 place or is that a suggested place of firing? Because this Chamber, I
14 think, still has to establish from where a shell was fired. What did you
15 take there as the place of firing?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, let's clear one thing
17 up. The place of firing is not adopted. It was determined based on
18 material clues. The incoming trajectory was determined based on material
19 clues, and the first analysis was carried out at a certain place because
20 it was more inconvenient. As you can see, there are many markings on
21 this map. It was more convenient to mark it up here. That's how we did
22 the analysis, and then we harmonised the report.
23 We did not adopt any place of firing. The azimuth was determined
24 at some point of the incoming trajectory, and we marked this trajectory
25 at the place of descent because we believed the whole paper, the whole
1 report should be uniform.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
3 Please proceed.
4 May I invite you to be very precise in your language because a
5 direction of descent is, if I understand you now well, is the direction
6 of origin, because over the trajectory you first rise and then you go
7 down. So it's not only the direction of descent but it's also the
8 direction of moving up, of firing it. But I am very sensitive for trying
9 to understand exactly what the words mean that you're using. May I
10 insist on a very precise use of words.
11 Please proceed.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me, may I respond?
14 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if there is anything -- we are not in a
15 debate. You are a witness here. You are examined. If there is
16 something which I said is wrong -- but there is no reason to enter into a
17 debate. I just asked you to use very precise language. And I am aware
18 that your language first is interpreted and especially if it is technical
19 expressions that may now and then cause confusion. Let's leave it to
21 Mr. Lukic.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 Q. Ms. Subotic, to the best of your expert knowledge, what you
24 stated in your report, is it accurate?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. After making all these corrections that you've made, would you
2 today still write the same report with the same findings?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Could we please concentrate now on your report regarding mortar
5 attacks on Sarajevo.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That's 1D5498. Could we see it on
7 the screens, please.
8 Q. In this particular report, since the first part is your CV, could
9 we go straight to page 30 in English and 31 in B/C/S.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] This incident is not in the
11 indictment. The experts have analysed it in our indictment, in schedule
12 G, item 1. It reads:
13 "Sarajevo was exposed to extensive shelling damaging and
14 destroying civilian targets and killing and wounding several civilians."
15 Regarding the date, it says "beginning with or approximately from
16 28 May 1992."
17 Just for the record, relating to this incident, although it's not
18 in the indictment, the Office of the Prosecutor introduced several pieces
19 of evidence, several exhibits: P06594, that is photo documentation
20 relating to the explosion in this incident in Vase Miskina Street of 27
21 May 1992; also P03169, the report relating to this incident; and
22 Exhibit P00946, which is medical documentation concerning persons injured
23 in this incident.
24 We therefore believed that the situation being what it is, we
25 have the right to challenge this documentation and we asked our experts
1 to analyse this incident.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, you are explaining to the Chamber why you
3 are putting questions. Why not - we have -- you have a ruling - ask
4 questions to the witness instead of explaining to the witness or to
5 whomever that you are entitled to ask questions. You are. Please
7 MR. LUKIC: Okay. In the future then I will just quote the
8 documents the Prosecution entered into evidence based on eight incidents
9 that are not in our indictment.
10 JUDGE ORIE: If you need it for the question to the witness, you
11 should tell. If there is no need to tell the witness what documents you
12 want to talk about, then refrain from doing it. It's the witness who is
13 examined. No further marginal matters.
14 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, just for the record, just so we're
15 straight, we haven't opposed this one being discussed. It wasn't part of
16 our opposition. It's come up many times during trial.
17 And I just wanted to offer to counsel, because he's referred to a
18 bunch of documents, that we do have the full investigative file assembled
19 if that would assist him. So I just wanted to let him be also aware that
20 we do have the materials for his use, too. It wasn't a part of our
21 objection and we're -- I just -- if we can assist.
22 MR. LUKIC: Thanks.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
24 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Mr. Weber. And we will exactly show that
25 everything is not in the evidence offered by the Prosecution.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Please put questions to the witness --
2 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
3 JUDGE ORIE: -- and to the extent that you can meet the request
4 of Mr. Weber, then please --
5 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: -- consider that.
7 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
8 Q. [Interpretation] Ms. Subotic, what did you manage to pin-point as
9 a problem when examining this case, this incident?
10 A. Well, we pin-pointed a number of problems concerning this
11 incident, which made analysis more difficult. First of all, there is no
12 police report from an on-site investigation which was conducted at the
13 time of evacuation. All we have are photographs.
14 Secondly, there is a police report which bears that date and the
15 photographs attached to it were only created after the entire area was
16 cleaned up; thus, we were unable to decide exactly when it was drafted
17 irrespective of the date. It is also specified in the document that it
18 was attached to the file on the 10th of August that day -- that year.
19 Thirdly, the witnesses stated that two shells landed in
20 Vase Miskina Street and exploded, whereas the documents we had at our
21 disposal refers to only one in terms of the traces it left behind.
22 Fourthly, although there is a very detailed record of all
23 injuries involved, there is a serious discrepancy in the police
24 registering 17 people who were killed and the memorial plaque in
25 Vase Miskina Street contains a list of six people, including seven
1 persons who could not be found among those who were killed or wounded.
2 Q. Ms. Subotic, let me ask you this: Do we know who attended the
3 on-site investigation? What can you tell from the documents?
4 A. Allegedly there were people from the CSB as well as an
5 investigating judge, but no names are specified. Therefore, we don't
6 know who attended.
7 Q. How did you reach your conclusion that there were several
8 explosions rather than one as is referred to in the report?
9 A. There was an on-site investigation report created immediately
10 after evacuation, and a number of witnesses also refer to it.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] There seems to be a problem. We
12 would need to look at some video footage, 1D05918, and Mr. Ivetic will
13 assist us with that. We are interested in the interval from 25 minutes,
14 16 seconds to 26 minutes, 11 seconds.
15 [Video-clip played]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Your microphone is open, Mr. Lukic.
17 [Video-clip played]
18 MR. LUKIC: And now we need from 14 minutes, 38 seconds until
19 15 minutes. 14:38.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We stopped at 25:13 instead of 16.
21 MR. LUKIC: Thank you for this correction. We'll just continue
22 now from 14:38 until 15.
23 [Video-clip played]
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. When you viewed the footage, could you see a crater at the very
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. When you were reviewing the police documents that are part of the
4 file, were you able to establish all the parameters you needed?
5 A. When we reviewed the photographs and the police report as well as
6 other documents in the file, we could see that in Vase Miskina Street,
7 the same crater we found in the photo documents was there in
8 September 2010 when we went to visit the site itself on Trial Chamber's
9 orders in the Karadzic case. Then we established that the crater does
10 not match the crater we saw a moment ago. We elaborated it in detail in
11 our paper.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Lukic, it would be very helpful to know who
13 took this video, when was it taken, what does it depict, the number,
14 1D5918, I don't find in the list of documents you see -- you provided us
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber is also on his feet.
17 MR. WEBER: And, Your Honour, if we could just add on to that.
18 If we could just ask for the ERN of video, that would assist us in our
19 systems too.
20 JUDGE ORIE: The problem is there is that no surrogate sheet for
21 this video uploaded into e-court, Mr. Lukic, if I understand the message
22 of our Registrar well.
23 MR. LUKIC: We have ERN number. It's V000-2825-1-A.
24 JUDGE ORIE: And now please an answer to the questions put by
25 Judge Fluegge. What's the video, what does it depict, who made it, when
1 was it made?
2 MR. WEBER: Maybe I can assist.
3 MR. LUKIC: Well --
4 JUDGE ORIE: If Mr. Lukic thinks that -- a bit surprised that
5 Mr. Lukic, who presents it, couldn't give that information.
6 MR. LUKIC: I was waiting for the translation in B/C/S.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay, then please an answer, Mr. Lukic.
8 MR. LUKIC: This video is taken by Sarajevo police, I think. But
9 we can check with Ms. Subotic and probably Mr. Weber has better ...
10 JUDGE ORIE: And when was it taken?
11 MR. LUKIC: On the day of the incident.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Which is the 4th of February?
13 MR. LUKIC: Which is 27th of May --
14 JUDGE ORIE: 27th of May, yes.
15 MR. LUKIC: -- 1992.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Was it 27th or 25th?
17 MR. LUKIC: 27th, as I --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Because I see in the report on -- no, perhaps --
19 okay. Fine. Please proceed.
20 V000-2825-1-A is also not in e-court, as far as Madam Registrar
21 informs me.
22 MR. LUKIC: Surrogate sheet is not in e-court, you mean?
23 JUDGE ORIE: It seems that there is a surrogate sheet, but it has
24 not been -- the video is usually handed over on a disk. It's there?
25 MR. LUKIC: The disks are handed over.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. It's not in e-court yet but it has been now
2 received by Madam Registrar.
3 Mr. Weber.
4 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, just so we have a clear record, the
5 video that is being broadcast is actually a large compilation from the
6 OTP's collection containing videos of many different incidents. I am
7 familiar with the video that Mr. Lukic broadcasted and his representation
8 in terms of -- generally is correct. We do have the original video which
9 we can upload, which might be easier and actually is of better quality.
10 MR. LUKIC: Yes, we are always grateful if we can get better
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I leave it to the parties how they could
13 co-operate in such a way that it will become even clearer than it is now.
14 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
16 MR. LUKIC: Can we have on our screens first 1D05717.
17 Q. [Interpretation] Ms. Subotic, are you familiar with this
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What is it?
21 A. It is a record of on-site investigation, signed by
22 Zlatko Medjedovic and Borislav Stankov. It is dated the 27th of May,
23 1992. It discuss a forensic investigation that was undertaken on the
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could we scroll up or down to see the date?
1 Could you --
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is in the first line.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the microphone be
4 repositioned? Because we cannot hear the witness when she approaches the
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The --
7 MR. LUKIC: Actually, the second --
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The document itself --
9 MR. LUKIC: In English, yes. In English version, it's in the
10 second paragraph.
11 THE WITNESS: Sorry.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Witness Subotic, the document itself doesn't bear
13 a date. It refers in the content to the date of the on-site
14 investigation. When it was drafted, it's unclear.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Lukic.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 [In English] We would offer this document into evidence.
20 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, we're still waiting for some
21 translations, but we actually believe it would be best to just tender the
22 whole file. We're trying to get it uploaded under 65 ter 33168. This
23 document would be a part of that file. If Mr. Lukic could review that,
24 we will release it. And then maybe it's just more economical for the
25 Chamber to have the whole file. The Prosecution will also be using it.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, any problems in having the whole file
2 available to the Chamber?
3 MR. LUKIC: I should see the whole file. I don't know what the
4 whole file is since we have --
5 JUDGE ORIE: You have not seen -- the whole file is the whole
6 file of the investigation, and you say you have only seen this?
7 MR. LUKIC: I don't know what in this one is. There are
8 several -- there are two, actually.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. We reserve a number, and the parties are
10 invited to sit together during the break and find out whether what
11 Mr. Weber is -- has uploaded, whether that is the whole file or something
12 different so that we know at the -- both parties know what will be in
13 evidence if admitted.
14 Madam Registrar, the number to be reserved provisionally for this
15 number, perhaps later to be replaced by a larger file, would be?
16 THE REGISTRAR: D1243, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: And that number is -- or perhaps we mark it for
18 identification and perhaps later replace the content by another or a
19 larger file.
20 Please proceed.
21 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
22 Q. [Interpretation] Ms. Subotic, how much photo documentation
23 concerning this report did you come across while drafting your report?
24 A. Two. Two documents.
25 Q. To the best of your knowledge, is it normal and is it lawful to
1 keep two separate photo documentation files under the same number?
2 A. Based on the 15 years of experience and based on the laws of my
3 country that I'm familiar with, it would not be lawful or customary. Any
4 document introduced in a file needs to bear its particular number, or it
5 may be attached to it but nevertheless considered a separate document in
6 the register itself. It is not lawful and it is not customary to have
7 two different documents marked with the same number.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, can I just get clarification.
9 The question to you, Madam, by Mr. Lukic was:
10 "To the best of your knowledge, is it normal and is it lawful to
11 keep two separate photo documentation files under the same number?"
12 Oh, okay. Sorry, my mistake. I'm clear. Thank you so much.
13 That's my mistake.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
15 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Can we see P06594, please.
17 [Interpretation] As we can see in the title, we have a photo
18 documentation file compiled by the CSB in Sarajevo, number 1615/29, dated
19 the 27th of May, 1992, discussing the fall and explosion of a mortar
20 shell, 82 millimetres in calibre, in Vase Miskina Street. We are
21 interested in page 6 in B/C/S since the English version does not contain
22 the photograph we are interested in. That page isn't there.
23 Q. What can you see in the photograph, Ms. Subotic?
24 A. We can see the traces of an 82-millimetre shell explosion on the
1 Q. What is the source of the photograph, if you know?
2 A. Yes, it is contained in the second photo documentation file
3 compiled subsequently after the street was cleaned up. And in our view,
4 it is unknown when it was taken.
5 Q. Can we now go back to 1D05498, which is your report, Ms. Subotic,
6 discussing mortar attacks in Sarajevo.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We are interested in page 43 in
8 English and 44 in B/C/S. Can we please enlarge the photograph in the
9 English version of the document, including the caption, so we can all see
10 what it is about.
11 Q. You can see it on the screen now. Can you tell us where this
12 photograph comes from?
13 A. We located the source of the photograph. It is on the internet.
14 It was taken by war correspondent Roger Richards during a concert played
15 by Vedran Smajlovic at the site where those people were killed on the
16 Vase Miskina Street. On the photograph, you can clearly see the traces
17 of the shell and its explosion against the pavement. It is exceptionally
18 clear, as a matter of fact. It helped us to compare this photograph
19 against the two existing photo documentation files.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let us look at page 45 in the English
21 and 46 in the B/C/S version.
22 Q. What is the comparison here, Ms. Subotic?
23 A. The comparison is between the two craters, one from the photo
24 documentation file that was subsequently created and the crater or the
25 photograph taken by Roger Richards. We rotated the photograph so as to
1 place the craters in an identical position in order to be able to
2 compare. We can clearly and undoubtedly see that these are actually not
3 two same craters.
4 Q. As for the photograph in the police file, were you able to
5 identify when it was attached to the file itself?
6 A. Yes. I said a moment ago that there is a handwritten note on the
7 file cover that the photo documentation was attached to the file on the
8 10th of August, 1992, I believe.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could we perhaps zoom in on the two craters
10 depicted in the two photographs that we --
11 JUDGE ORIE: I think we can do it --
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- can't see anymore.
13 JUDGE ORIE: I think we can do it in both languages because they
14 are the same in both. Yes, could we zoom in?
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Please explain, Ms. Subotic, what is the difference that you can
17 see? And please refer to the left- and right-hand side photograph.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, perhaps we can cut this short. The tiles
19 on the floor are not similar even. So therefore, it's difficult to even
20 imagine that this would be the same because the ones are squares, the
21 other ones are rectangles, where one side is longer than the other.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE ORIE: It doesn't need a lot of explanation that what is
24 depicted here is not the same. Now, what is what, of course, is the next
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. You heard the reference, Ms. Subotic. It is clear, therefore,
3 that these are not the same craters. Can you tell us which is which?
4 A. I visited the location. I measured the tiles, and they are 40 by
5 40 centimetres in size. This may have to do with the angle of the
6 photograph, giving an impression that they are not the same tiles.
7 However, it is the same location and we see two comparable craters
8 because on both photographs the craters were reduced to the same
9 dimensions, as you can see, in order to be able to better compare. We
10 can see with the naked eye that these are not one and the same crater.
11 It is also a fact that in Vase Miskina Street the tiles measure 40 by 40
12 centimetres, because I measured them. However, both photographs were
13 taken in Vase Miskina Street.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Then I have a question. It looks as if -- to the
15 left, that is the photograph taken by Mr. Rogers, that they are not
16 square. So if you say the tiles there are 40 by 40 centimetres, that at
17 least suggests that perhaps the tiles on the left photograph taken by
18 Mr. Rogers are not in the Vase Miskina Street.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the document from which we took
20 this file, it is said the concert was held at Vase Miskina Street on the
21 site of the explosion. Because the musician was a cellist who held
22 22 concerts in 22 different sites that involved killings and one of them
23 is --
24 JUDGE ORIE: That's all in your report. But the accuracy of what
25 is stated in that book is not within your field of expertise, is it?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, I didn't understand the
3 JUDGE ORIE: While your expertise can assist us greatly, but
4 whether or not something written in a book by a photographer talking
5 about a cello concert, whether that's true or not, and whether you can
6 rely on that I would say is not within your expertise, is it?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you look at picture number 13 in
8 the report, you will recognise that this was happening in Vase Miskina
9 Street. We don't need to rely on his statement.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you invoked it a second ago.
11 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
12 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: It's break time anyhow.
14 MR. LUKIC: I would just have couple of more questions so we
15 finish this.
16 JUDGE ORIE: If that would be suitable for you, for your client,
17 then the Chamber has no problems if Mr. Weber hasn't any.
18 Please proceed.
19 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
20 Q. [Interpretation] Did you visit the site? You said you measured
21 these slabs. When you were on the site?
22 A. On the 17th and 18th of September, 2010.
23 Q. At that moment, did the site look the same or was it modified?
24 A. The crater depicted in picture 15 was consistent with the crater
25 as shown in the photo documentation made later, but the appearance of the
1 site was altered because the slabs or the stones covering the street had
2 been changed.
3 Q. And were they changed after 2010 in that same place?
4 A. Yes. After my testimony in the Karadzic case, the slabs were
5 changed once again and my colleague, Mr. Poparic, photographed them.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MR. LUKIC: We can have a break, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: We take a break, and we'd like to see you back in
9 20 minutes at 11.00. You may now follow the usher.
10 [The witness stands down]
11 JUDGE ORIE: We take a break and we resume at 11.00.
12 --- Recess taken at 10.38 a.m.
13 --- On resuming at 11.11 a.m.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Before we invite the witness to enter the courtroom,
15 I see that Mr. Lukic is not present. He's aware that we'll start,
16 Mr. Stojanovic?
17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I believe he
18 stayed back to consult about the identification of parts of video-clips
19 he intends to use now in the examination of our experts. In a couple of
20 minutes, we will see if it is ready.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Well, not in a couple of minutes. We are already
22 12 minutes delayed, and Mr. Lukic should come to the courtroom. And
23 then -- I mean, there is sufficient time within the next breaks to deal
24 with any matter he'd like to do.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Right. Here he is.
1 MR. LUKIC: I apologise, Your Honours. I don't know what's the
2 decision in regard because it's very hard for us to continue the trial
3 with the help of our expert.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, a decision on what?
5 MR. LUKIC: Decision on --
6 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand --
7 MR. LUKIC: -- his right --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Let me cut this short. I do understand that you
9 sent the Registrar to convey a message that if Mr. Poparic could not be
10 with you in the courtroom that there would be no trial. That's the
11 message we received. That's a message which doesn't require any
13 We are still waiting -- and we were informed that you were given
14 the choice. We are still waiting for your decision, that is, whether you
15 ask permission of an expert to be in the courtroom with you or to decide
16 that you would be satisfied if that expert would follow the proceedings
17 from the public gallery.
18 I do understand that that expert entered those premises as a
19 visitor, not specifically being announced, and moved into areas where
20 visitors are not allowed to come --
21 MR. LUKIC: Not true. Our visitors are allowed to come into this
22 hearing. And message transferred to you is not correct.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
24 MR. LUKIC: I did not send that message.
25 JUDGE ORIE: But nothing at this moment was submitted to us what
1 requires a decision. Are you intending to ask us something?
2 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then please do so, and then we'll see whether
4 a decision will be taken on what you are asking us.
5 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 I asked Registrar to transfer the message that we need our expert
7 to be with us during the breaks here in the courtroom to help us with the
8 documents and the videos. Obviously, the first video we showed was not
9 hundred per cent correct. We saw some church, we didn't have -- we're
10 not supposed to see because we don't need it.
11 JUDGE ORIE: What are you asking from this Chamber, Mr. Lukic --
12 MR. LUKIC: And then --
13 JUDGE ORIE: -- because then we decide only on --
14 MR. LUKIC: -- I was offered that -- sorry.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Because we only decide on the requests that are
16 addressed to us.
17 MR. LUKIC: Then I was offered that I can either ask for this
18 gentleman to be with us inside the courtroom helping us or to be in the
19 public gallery. So it's not the question I sent to Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, fine.
21 MR. LUKIC: But if it's possible, fine. The solution would be if
22 Mr. Poparic can be with us inside the courtroom, then.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. So you're asking permission to be --
24 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: -- that Mr. Poparic is with you in the courtroom.
1 I'll consult with my --
2 MR. LUKIC: If I can add one thing.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 MR. LUKIC: He is expert, this is his work as well. And he
5 signed --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, that's what we all know, isn't it.
7 MR. LUKIC: And he signed undertaking. He has signed undertaking
8 that he cannot disclose anything that is confidential.
9 JUDGE ORIE: If you would have introduced this right from the
10 beginning in saying: One of our next witnesses, Mr. Poparic, is here,
11 and we would like him to be with us in court so that we can consult him
12 on technical matters, he has signed an undertaking, then most of the fuss
13 would have been avoided, I think. But we'll now follow properly
15 Mr. Weber, is there any objection if Mr. Poparic would be with
16 Mr. Lukic in the courtroom?
17 MR. WEBER: The one consideration that the Prosecution wanted to
18 have would just be communication on the witness on the stand. So the
19 witness is under oath and that if the other co-author of the report were
20 to be present communicating with the Defence throughout the course of the
21 examination, we would just ask to make sure that there are some strict
22 provisions that that individual isn't then communicating with the witness
23 during the course of her testimony.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If that's your only concern, then one second,
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber has decided on the matter.
3 Mr. Lukic, the request that Mr. Poparic will be with you in the
4 courtroom is granted. We'll give clear instructions to Mr. Poparic.
5 I add to this that what was reported to us was that you were not
6 very polite to the -- to our court officer. Certainly, it's not
7 acceptable that you sent her as your messenger to the Court. If there is
8 any matter, you can address the Court yourself. If you say: Well, I do
9 not -- I may have been not very nice in my communication with her, then
10 we'll accept that. We understand that as a kind of an apology.
11 If, however, you say: No, that's not true. I behaved properly,
12 appropriately, and never in any way unpleasant to the Registry, then
13 we'll do a further investigation on what exactly happened, what words
14 were used, et cetera.
15 But we are willing to leave it like that if you would agree that,
16 as was reported to us, that your language has not only been pleasant to
17 the court officer. And I use the --
18 MR. LUKIC: I can say, Your Honour, that my tone might be
19 angry --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MR. LUKIC: -- but not words. I never uttered any indecent word.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Not indecent, but sending her and telling the court
23 officer that if the witness could not be with you that there would be no
24 trial, if the -- these are approximately the words you uttered, then
25 first of all you shouldn't --
1 MR. LUKIC: No, no.
2 JUDGE ORIE: What did you then say exactly?
3 MR. LUKIC: I already told you, I never asked for him to be with
4 us. I asked for him to help us during the breaks.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 MR. LUKIC: So it cannot be the message that I asked for him to
7 be with us, and that's what -- something I heard from the Registrar, that
8 he can't be with us.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Lukic, you used the wrong channel. That was
10 the problem.
11 MR. LUKIC: I was already --
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You should have addressed the Chamber.
13 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, I was informed by the guards that I
14 should address the Registrar and solve the problem with him, and that's
15 how I proceeded.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but you are a lawyer, you know how it works in
17 this courtroom, and you also know that if there is any problem in this
18 respect, that finally, if it's not resolved, that you have to address the
19 Chamber. And let's be quite honest, the way in which we started after
20 this break, there was a lot of agitation in your tone as well.
21 Let's leave it to that and let's try to overcome that --
22 MR. LUKIC: If I can say one thing in my defence, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Well --
24 MR. LUKIC: I just tried to solve a problem during the break
25 without involving Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the best -- the best you were doing --
2 MR. LUKIC: That's what I trying to do.
3 JUDGE ORIE: The best you are doing now is smiling and
4 relativising apparently what happened.
5 Please be assured, Mr. Lukic, that whenever we have the feeling
6 that our staff is approached in a way even with a tone which is not the
7 appropriate one, that this Chamber will, of course, be very vigilant to
8 see that this does not occur again.
9 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: If that's clear to you, then we can proceed.
11 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: And just one word of advice, Mr. Lukic. Don't
13 take guidance from the guards. You use your professional knowledge of
14 how to handle matters in court.
15 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, which does not mean that you can ignore what
17 guards say. I mean, if they stop someone, that should be respected. Let
18 that be also clear. But whom to address to resolve the problem, I think
19 your first compass should be your own professional knowledge and skills.
20 We leave it to that. Mr. Poparic can enter the courtroom. The
21 Chamber has now given permission to that.
22 MR. LUKIC: We will send our colleague to tell Mr. Poparic that
23 he can be with us.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And since I would like to instruct Mr. Poparic
25 not in the presence of the witness, I hope that he arrives soon.
1 Mr. Mladic is talking aloud which he is supposed not to do.
2 Mr. Lukic, while we are waiting for Mr. Poparic to enter the
3 courtroom, there is a risk that after having consulted with Mr. Poparic,
4 that you would lead the witness, so we'll be very strict. If you have
5 someone assisting you in the courtroom and to consult you on technical
6 matters, please be aware that especially under those circumstances, that
7 leading questions are even more strictly prohibited, I would say, than
8 they are already.
9 [Defence consultant enters courtroom]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Poparic, there was a short discussion in this
11 courtroom about your presence. That matter has been resolved. You are
12 allowed to sit in the courtroom so that Mr. Lukic can consult you if he
13 wishes to do so.
14 At the same time, I have to give you clear instructions as well;
15 that is, that you refrain from any intervention with the examination of
16 the witness, whether that's eye contact, whether that is anything else,
17 nodding yes or nodding no, whatever it is, you should refrain from it,
18 rather not even look at the witness. That's one.
19 Second, as long as this witness has not concluded her testimony,
20 you are not allowed to communicate with her in any way in relation to her
21 testimony. That should be perfectly clear to you. And this is an order
22 by the Court, which means that if you would violate that order, you can
23 be prosecuted for that. So you should refrain from any communication in
24 relation to the testimony.
25 Now, the best way to do it is to avoid contact anyhow with this
1 witness, because otherwise people might think that you are communicating.
2 And so that's -- whether it's by telephone, whether it's by -- through
3 e-mail, nothing. You have to refrain from everything. You are here so
4 as to allow the Defence to consult you. Is that clear to you?
5 Perhaps if you switch on the microphone, if you say -- if you
6 answer that question.
7 MR. POPARIC: [Interpretation] It's perfectly clear.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Then with these restrictions, you are --
9 you may be seated again.
10 Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
11 [The witness takes the stand]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Madam, the break took a bit longer than expected.
13 One of the things you may notice or have noticed already is that
14 Mr. Poparic is here in the courtroom as well. You are hereby instructed
15 to avoid any communication, eye contact, whatever. He's here to be
16 consulted by the Defence, and he should stay out, and you should also not
17 seek in any way any contact with him.
18 Further, if you leave this courtroom today, I will give you
19 further instructions that you are not allowed to speak or communicate in
20 any way with whomever about your testimony. That is especially valid for
21 any communication with Mr. Poparic. So no discussions, nothing. Best
22 would even be to avoid contact with him up till the moment that you have
23 concluded your testimony. I'll give you the instruction at the end of
24 this session to remind you of that.
25 Mr. Lukic will now continue his examination.
1 Mr. Lukic.
2 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Can we have on our screen -- oh, we have the document we need. I
4 just need picture 17. It's in English version page 48, and in B/C/S
5 version page 49.
6 Q. [Interpretation] You have told us that the square slabs are shown
7 here, but I want to ask you something else about the place of detonation.
8 Did you have an opportunity, Ms. Subotic, to determine approximately from
9 which distance from the place of detonation this bomb was fired?
10 A. Based on the technical specifications of the weapon and the
11 description of the impact of shrapnel on the pavement, the shape of the
12 crater which helped us determine the angle of descent, and the fact that
13 the tail fin did not embed itself, instead it was found further away from
14 the scene, we managed to determine a distance of 100 to 120 metres along
15 a direction - that is to say, azimuth - of 75 [as interpreted] degrees,
16 which can also be seen from the photo documentation.
17 Q. In your view, under whose control this territory was?
18 A. This sector was under the control of the BH Army.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, these are questions without a foundation
20 that shouldn't be asked the witness. I mean, who was in control of what
21 territory is evidence which is not to be provided unless there is a
22 specific basis of knowledge for that.
23 I earlier said let's focus on what this witness is called for,
24 that is, her expertise on the matter.
25 And I have one additional question. You said you calculated that
1 this was the distance, 100 to 120 metres. Where do we find that
2 calculation exactly? I mean, angle of descent and -- I mean, taking from
3 that what charges were used in firing the projectile. Is it -- have you
4 given the details in your report exactly? Firing tables for the weapon
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, certainly. We provided that.
7 It's all given in detail on pages from 31 to page 56.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but I mean the calculation of the 1- to
9 120 metres. Where exactly is that to be found, so to say?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was not necessary to look for
11 that. This data is contained in the firing tables, and we referred to
12 them. It is cited on page 52.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
14 MR. WEBER: Just if I can have a kind request. If -- there is
15 some difference in pagination numbers between the English and the B/C/S,
16 but the paragraph numbers are the same. If it's possible to refer to the
17 paragraph numbers, so we could understand in both versions.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Could you assist with the paragraph number?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Certainly, it's paragraph 16.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. One second, please.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could we have paragraph 16 on the screen. It
22 must be page 52 in B/C/S.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And paragraph 15. Paragraph 15
24 provides an excerpt from the firing table.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. I'll look at that later, but I just wondered
1 where to find the exact details.
2 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
3 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
4 Q. [Interpretation] From the video, Ms. Subotic, that we have just
5 seen, were you able to conclude what accompanied the evacuation of the
7 A. We could hear the sound of fire from infantry weapons.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We should now like to play
10 65 ter 1D05918. It's V000-2825-1-A. And we should see from 30 minutes,
11 47 seconds to 30 minutes, 49 seconds.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Am I correct that you said it was 100 to 120 --
13 [Video-clip played]
14 JUDGE ORIE: I'm sorry. Perhaps we first look at the video.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Could you please read out what is written on the screen?
17 A. Sarajevo, 27 May 1992, Vase Miskina Street, 9.30. And in the
18 upper corner we see BH TV.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Since we have no translation, we
20 have to play this same video once again.
21 [In English] Yeah, can we play? I was just informed that it was
22 not played. Can we play it now, please? Those two seconds.
23 [Video-clip played]
24 MR. LUKIC: So that's the scene we want to see. And now if we
25 can see the same video from 33 minutes, 44 seconds until 34 minutes,
1 04 seconds, please.
2 [Video-clip played]
3 MR. LUKIC: Can we stop here? Actually, we can continue, sorry.
4 [Video-clip played]
5 MR. LUKIC: Stop. For the record, we stopped at 33 minutes,
6 51 seconds.
7 Q. [Interpretation] Ms. Subotic, can you read what is written here?
8 A. Sniper fire during first aid.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 [Video-clip played]
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. This place where the incident happened, where is it? Where can
13 you see it from? Who was able to open fire from a sniper rifle or any
14 other rifle?
15 A. That place is found surrounded by high-rise --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
17 MR. WEBER: There is a couple of questions there.
18 MR. LUKIC: Okay. I will rephrase.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Could you describe the place of the incident?
22 A. Excuse me, I didn't hear.
23 Q. Could you describe the place of the incident, the appearance of
24 the surrounding buildings, et cetera?
25 A. The place of the incident is in a street where there are
1 high-rise buildings on both sides, which you can see on pictures 1 and 2.
2 I repeat: The place of the incident is in a street which has
3 high-rise buildings on both sides, as we can see from pictures 1 and 2.
4 This place is not visible from a great distance and can be targeted only
5 from close proximity, and the sounds that we hear also indicate that the
6 fire is coming from the vicinity.
7 I must say that the closest positions of the VRS, the Army of
8 Republika Srpska, are located at 1700 to 1800 metres from this place.
9 Q. What is your conclusion regarding this incident?
10 A. As I've said, according to technical parameters that we had at
11 our disposal, this incident could have involved an 82-millimetre calibre
12 shell fired from a distance of 100 to 120 metres from the spot. That is
13 my conclusion.
14 Q. I would now like to ask you about incident G-4.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, if you would allow me to ask a few
16 follow-up questions.
17 I think the 100 to 120 metres, that's what you said before. You
18 said, and I'm referring to page 13:
19 "... we managed to determine a distance of 100 to 120 metres
20 along a direction - that is to say, azimuth - of 75 degrees ..."
21 Do I understand that this 75 degrees are referring to the compass
22 which is then -- approximately 75 degrees is east of north-east?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just a moment.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There apparently is a problem with the audio?
25 THE WITNESS: Ah, yes. It's okay. It's okay.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Is it 75 degrees --
2 THE WITNESS: Now it's okay. Now it's okay.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. 75 degrees, is that the direction of the
4 origin of fire? Is that what you are referring to? The azimuth?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The azimuth is 175 degrees, and
6 it's close to the perpendicular line to the pavement, that's the
7 direction of descent. That's the azimuth, 175. It is visible on
8 picture 19, paragraph 14, in our report.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Then there must have been a mistake in the --
10 perhaps in the transcription.
11 I would like now to take you back to, as you said, on page 50 in
12 the English, and unfortunately I am unable to tell you which page it is
13 in --
14 MR. LUKIC: Can you tell me the name of the -- the number of the
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I will give that to you, Mr. Lukic, if you've
17 got one second. I think it is paragraph 15. Paragraph 15, table 4.
18 MR. LUKIC: Page?
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could we have it on the screen, please?
20 MR. LUKIC: It's page 50 in B/C/S.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Page 50 in B/C/S as well.
22 MR. LUKIC: 50, yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There we see the table which I asked you
25 In paragraph 15 you are explaining that the angle of descent was
1 close to the maximum angle, which is 83 to 84 degrees. Is it true that
2 in the table, you calculated everything on the basis of the maximum angle
3 rather than on any angle close to that?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We provided data here from the
5 firing table for angles from 83 to 84, which is written there.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but you said that on the basis of the crater
7 shape, that the angle of descent was close to the maximum angle of 83,
8 84, so therefore may I take it that it has been less, much or a bit,
9 or ...?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. We need to understand that
11 this angle is on the order of 83 to 84, as we wrote. That estimate could
12 be made only at that level. It was close to the maximum possible angle,
13 and we provided data for this value. A little less than that would give
14 a result very close.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Now, you have told us that you established that the
16 distance was between 100 and 120 metres. If I look at this table, then I
17 see that the distance the projectile travelled depends on the charges
18 that were used in firing it and that only if fired with a primary charge
19 that the outcome would be close to 120 metres.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have any reason to believe that there was
22 only a primary charge used and not, for example, charge 6?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We have very serious technical
24 reasons to conclude that. You wouldn't have the same situation on the
25 pavement as you would have if charge 6 had been used. That's a very
1 well-known specification. The tail fin, beginning with charge 3, embeds
2 itself into the surface, more or less, depending on the quality of the
3 surface; whereas we found the tail fin removed from the place where the
4 shell landed, so it could not have been charge 6 or 5 or 4 or 3.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Have you calculated that exactly on the basis of the
6 quality of the surface?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We did not show that. There is a
8 very simple formula which factors in the quality of the surface, and I
9 stand by this piece of information that charge 3 -- or had charge 3 been
10 used, the tail fin would have been buried in the surface to some extent.
11 Ultimately, if you look at the table results, you will see that
12 even charge 3 is still within ABiH territory. We specified a primary
13 charge because the -- we did not have a single piece of evidence of
14 anyone hearing the firing.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, would you limit yourself to metres rather
16 to tell by whom the territory was controlled. That's not within the
17 field of your expertise. If you say that it is at that distance, then
18 that's certainly within your field of expertise.
19 But apparently you took the primary charge only and not charge 1
20 or charge 2, you did not consider that because you said it was 100 to
21 120 metres. And for example, for charge 2 it goes already to 625 metres.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Now, I see two numbers. Let's just take as an
24 example charge 2 for an 82-M 68-millimetre mortar shell. We see 384 to
25 625. Is the one number for 83 and the other one for 84, or what does
1 this range stand for?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 74. These are possible ranges as
3 well. We provided the most probable one, but the other ranges included
4 are also probable.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So it could be up to 625 metres on charge 2.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Let's just -- just for argument's sake, let's assume
8 it wasn't 83 or 84 but it was 80 degrees, what difference would that have
9 made in the outcome?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We would look at the firing tables
11 before I answer it. I don't know these things off the top of my head.
12 In any case, it wasn't specified here.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 Perhaps, Mr. Lukic, we have some firing tables in evidence. I
15 see that here is -- a reference is made to a certain 65 ter number.
16 Wouldn't it be a good idea so in order to be able to verify the accuracy
17 where the witness at least was selective in choosing the 100 to
18 120 millimetres, where she now tells us that it could have been fired
19 with charge 2 perhaps as well, and that gives it an entirely different
20 outcome. Although the witness still says within BiH-controlled
21 territory, and, of course, the Chamber will, on the basis of the evidence
22 before it, rather than on what this witness tells us, find out whether it
23 was or was not from within BiH-held territory.
24 Firing tables, perhaps a selection. The relevant selection. We
25 don't need the whole booklet, perhaps, but just for these mortars.
1 MR. WEBER: I --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Or is it already in evidence? I must say that we
3 have -- for 120-millimetre I think we have them in evidence.
4 MR. WEBER: Your Honour's recollection is accurate. If it
5 assists Mr. Lukic, regarding the three types that are listed here, the
6 Prosecution has uploaded the related firing tables under 65 ter 33098,
7 which I -- are not yet admitted.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but Mr. Lukic has uploaded them as well. I
9 leave it to you which one is first to tender that, but I'd be interested
10 and the Chamber might be interested in having a look at the tables.
11 Please proceed.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I'm certain that the Presiding Judge was
13 referring to 100 to 120 metres and not millimetres.
14 JUDGE ORIE: No, as a matter of fact I was -- I don't know -- if
15 I was talking about shells I was talking about 120 millimetres. When I
16 was talking about distances, I was talking about 120 metres.
17 Let's move on.
18 MR. LUKIC: I think that our 65 ter for these tables are 1D5716,
19 and it's in the footnote.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I see that it's in the footnote, but I wondered
21 whether you wanted to tender that because usually we do not inspect any
22 evidence which is not tendered by a party.
23 MR. LUKIC: We can expect -- inspect it, but I don't know the
24 correct page number where that could be found, even one.
25 JUDGE ORIE: If you would try to find out that and then tender
1 the ...
2 MR. WEBER: They appear to be the -- the two 65 ter numbers given
3 by both sides appear to be the same original document. If Mr. Lukic
4 could just check the translations in the Prosecution version to verify if
5 those may be more complete.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And of course apart from exactly 83 and
7 84 degrees, if other pages deal with different angles of descent, we
8 would like to see what the variety and the angle of descent would mean
9 for the distance over which the projectile has travelled. So therefore,
10 not just limited to 83, 84, but a bit broader.
11 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
12 MR. LUKIC: I was just informed by Mr. Poparic that it's not
13 easy. It has to be calculated --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, this is exactly what you're supposed not
15 to do; that is, to tell in the presence of the witness what Mr. Poparic
16 told you. If there is any question to be put to this witness on the
17 basis of your consultation with Mr. Poparic, then you do not say a word
18 about what Mr. Poparic told you. You just put the question to the
20 Mr. Lukic, this is exactly what is inappropriate to do.
21 MR. LUKIC: I apologise.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
23 MR. LUKIC: I apologise. What I wanted to ask Your Honours is
24 that somebody provides Ms. Subotic with those tables, because we cannot
25 do that, Mr. Poparic cannot do that. So the --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if it's in evidence. We can ask the
2 witness -- if you tender it, then of course we can ask the witness to
3 comment on it.
4 MR. LUKIC: But maybe she can calculate it at home or overnight
5 or during the break.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it's mainly finding the outcome in the tables.
7 If you remember the 120-millimetre tables, you say this angle of this --
8 as a matter of fact angle of firing or angle of descent, we have to
9 compare how the angle of descent is different. It's usually slightly
10 different from the angle of firing, and then you read in the tables what
11 the distances are if fired with initial -- a primary charge or plus 1,
12 plus 2, up to plus 6.
13 Therefore I have no --
14 MR. LUKIC: Maybe I can try but I cannot because I was not
15 prepared for this. We can call 65 ter -- as the Prosecution offered,
16 maybe it is translated, 33098.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then we still have to find the --
18 MR. LUKIC: Page --
19 JUDGE ORIE: -- pages we need --
20 MR. LUKIC: -- 306.
21 JUDGE ORIE: 306.
22 MR. LUKIC: Well, it is in total 301 pages. I thought it's on
23 page 306, but I --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the first thing I see, Mr. Lukic, is that this
25 is about M69 and M69A and not about M68 as well. And it's these three --
1 as a matter of fact, in the report the outcome are given for
2 82-millimetre M68, M74 and M72. And what I see on our screen now
3 apparently is a table for projectiles M69 and M69A.
4 Mr. Weber.
5 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, if I could assist you, maybe if you
6 could go to e-court page 6 where you see the table of contents where that
7 might give an indication as to where to go to the ones you mentioned.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. We'll have a look at page 6 then.
9 MR. WEBER: And, Your Honours, I was referring to page 6 of the
10 original B/C/S.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we'll take a break. And, Mr. Lukic, I take it
12 that during the break you will be able to find exactly the pages which we
13 would --
14 MR. LUKIC: If Ms. Subotic leaves the courtroom, I can inform you
15 about the procedure.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then we'll ask Ms. Subotic to first leave the
18 THE WITNESS: I can leave? Okay.
19 [The witness stands down]
20 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 MR. LUKIC: -- I was just informed that we would probably need
23 15, 16 pages from this table.
24 JUDGE ORIE: That's fine.
25 MR. LUKIC: And --
1 JUDGE ORIE: If you --
2 MR. LUKIC: Okay. And we will locate them.
3 JUDGE ORIE: If you locate them then --
4 MR. WEBER: And, Your Honour, we would just appreciate just
5 having a discussion about that because we would ask for more relating to
6 the rest of the charges so --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Could you perhaps --
8 MR. WEBER: And all three types listed in the report.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. So that we find the proper basis, the source
10 of what the report tells us as far as distances are concerned.
11 We take a break and we resume at 25 minutes past 12.00.
12 --- Recess taken at 12.03 p.m.
13 --- On resuming at 12.28 p.m.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
15 Mr. Lukic.
16 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, before the witness is with us, I just
17 want to inform you that Mr. Poparic found pages in this 65 ter. And
18 for -- basic for first, second, so if you want me to tell you those pages
19 for the --
20 JUDGE ORIE: If you could give the pages. But again, Mr. Lukic,
21 if you consult Mr. Poparic, you just tell us: Judges, please look at
22 those and those pages.
23 MR. LUKIC: Okay.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Whether it comes from Mr. Poparic or from anyone
25 else is not -- you can consult with him but that's not to be put on the
2 MR. LUKIC: Okay. So the pages are 81, 84, 88, 93, 99, and 106.
3 [The witness takes the stand]
4 MR. LUKIC: For the sixth one is 114. It's for M74 mine. And
5 for M68 is page 129 for basic, 132 for first, 136 for second, 141 for
6 third, and 147 for the fourth.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 MR. LUKIC: M69 is a mortar itself, not a mine. But there are
9 two mines, 68 and 74. 69 is mortar.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, if you want to add anything. Of course,
11 we are -- I think we are talking about shells fired with various charges.
12 MR. WEBER: I'll be very quick. I agree with Mr. Lukic's last
13 representation in terms of type of mortar versus types of mortar shells.
14 That being said, I did discuss this with Mr. Lukic during the break. The
15 Prosecution does want additional pages that correspond to our uploaded
16 translation. Ms. Stewart is going to cut it down and then we'll reoffer
17 that, and we'll make sure that the pages indicated by Mr. Lukic are
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. They will certainly be included. There may be
20 more. Is there a way of presenting those pages, if you have finally made
21 up your mind, to send an e-mail to Chamber staff to tell what pages they
22 are and what you intend to upload, and then Mr. Lukic has an opportunity
23 to look at it as well?
24 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. But I think that we agreed
25 already during the break that I do not have a problem with having more
1 pages translated. They will --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then we'll hear -- then you communicate to
3 Mr. Lukic what you need in addition to what he needs, and I think the
4 Chamber has expressed an interest in looking at angles of descent
5 slightly lower and perhaps up to 10 or 20 per cent lower. That's because
6 83, 84 is one aspect. I don't know how much details there are in those
8 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, since we are in the presence of the
9 witness, I'll keep this short, but we believe that greater angles than
10 that are relevant. So we are going to include the ones that we think are
11 relevant based on that evidence. There will be further examination then.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Fine. We'll then hear from you and we'll see what
13 will be tendered into evidence.
14 Mr. Lukic, you may proceed.
15 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
16 Q. [Interpretation] Ms. Subotic, we will again require your paper.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It is our number 1D05498. We need
18 page 55 in the English and 56 in the B/C/S.
19 Q. It is about the 1st of June, 1993. As stated here, at around
20 1000 hours, two mortar shells landed and exploded in a parking-lot behind
21 a building in Vahida Maglajlic Street at the time when a football match
22 was played.
23 In your report, you specify that in this incident many fighters
24 were killed and wounded. Where did you come across that piece of
1 A. In the security services' report.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we next on our screens have
4 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please.
5 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I'm informed by Madam Registrar that
7 opening the English translation into e-court turns out to be impossible.
8 Could you please check carefully whether everything has been uploaded and
10 MR. LUKIC: I anticipated the problem and I already told my
11 colleague to check it, although there is English translation.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but it's apparently not accessible at this
13 moment. Could you check?
14 MR. LUKIC: We continue with B/C/S version for now. I'll read
15 the first page and we only need one paragraph or two from the second
16 page -- or we should wait?
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You should release the English version.
18 MR. LUKIC: Yes, but it has to be done from another room, so we
19 just sent a message.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. If it's a limited portion and if you take
21 care that it will be released as soon as possible, we have a look at the
22 B/C/S version while you slowly read anything that you need to ask a
23 question to the witness.
24 MR. LUKIC: I will read -- we can open it in e-court. It's not
25 released, I was just told. Okay. I will read what we can find on the
1 first page -- and it's released now.
2 [Interpretation] We can see that it comes from the security
3 administration of the Supreme Command staff of the Republic of Bosnia and
4 Herzegovina. The date is 6 June 1993. It is a special report.
5 Next, we need page 2 in both versions of the document.
6 Q. If we look at the first paragraph, is this where found the
7 information about the incident?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. It is stated that seven fighters were killed and 51 wounded; is
10 that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. It also specifies that a warning had been issued - that is the
13 next paragraph - concerning the danger of shelling, but the participants
14 obviously did not heed the warning.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. It is also stated that the military security services engaged in
17 identifying the initiator and organiser of the tournament.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did you have a police report about the incident at your disposal?
20 A. No. Although we know that it exists.
21 Q. So you did not --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I'll intervene at this moment.
23 This witness is called as an expert witness, not to interpret
24 other documents to tell us how many fighters were killed. There is no
25 problem in presenting that evidence, but this witness is not qualified to
1 bring any of that to us. I think that even such reports might -- you
2 might even be able to tender them by other means, but this witness is
3 here because she is an expert on shelling and she's not an expert on who
4 is a fighter, who is not a fighter, whether this is an authenticate
5 document, et cetera, et cetera.
6 Again, I'm not barring you from presenting that evidence. It may
7 be very important to the extent it is not yet there. I have a vague
8 recollection that there was some evidence about fighters among those who
9 were victims of that shelling incident, so to that extent it would also
10 be repetitious.
11 But this witness is not here to tell us these kind of things.
12 This witness is not here to tell us whether a memorial gives different
13 names, and if so, this the witness should limit herself to say: I saw
14 these names here, I saw these names there. She is not in a position to
15 draw conclusions from that. She is an expert and we accepted her as an
16 expert on matters within her expertise.
17 Would you please keep that in mind also because you asked for ten
18 more hours.
19 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Could you try to find out whether Mr. Weber
21 disagrees that there were men reported as being fighters, whatever that
22 means, but among those who were victims of that incident. You should
23 clearly understand what the role of this witness is and what the kind of
24 evidence you are presenting, because we'll certainly not extend to ten
25 hours by asking a witness about matters which he is not -- has no
1 personal knowledge about and which does not fall within the scope of her
3 Please keep this in mind when you're using the hours which are
4 available to you.
5 Please proceed.
6 MR. LUKIC: Your Honours, you didn't have your headphones on, and
7 my main focus was on the investigation and what was available to
8 Ms. Subotic, and I asked her, since we here see that security organ of
9 the army was interested in this, and I asked Ms. Subotic whether she had
10 report made by the police. She said "no."
11 JUDGE ORIE: That was your second question --
12 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: -- and of course it's totally unclear to this
14 Chamber what sources were available to this witness and not. Apparently,
15 there was a lot of material which is really not linked to her expertise,
16 and I'm drawing your attention to that. I'm not specifically criticising
17 your asking whether she knows whether a police report exists or not.
18 That is closely linked to her own work. But whether these were fighters
19 or not, which seems not to be in dispute that there were such fighters,
20 why bother the witness with that?
21 Please proceed.
22 MR. LUKIC: Thank you. But we did not know if something is in
23 dispute or not because nobody informed us --
24 JUDGE ORIE: I said --
25 MR. LUKIC: -- that anything is in dispute. We don't know.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you could ask, isn't it. If you present --
2 MR. LUKIC: Okay. We are open now --
3 JUDGE ORIE: If you present --
4 MR. LUKIC: We are open now to hear from the Prosecution --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic --
6 MR. LUKIC: -- if there is anything that is not in dispute.
7 JUDGE ORIE: No, Mr. Lukic. You have an active duty to find out
8 whether you present evidence on matters which are in dispute.
9 If I remember that the Prosecution has presented evidence which
10 includes, if I'm not wrong, that there were fighters among the victims,
11 then you should know as well, and you can verify with Mr. Weber. And
12 again, I said you may proceed. This was not a beginning of a debate with
13 me but just a ruling. And it's not right that you should wait until the
14 Prosecution tells you what they agree on. You should analyse the
15 evidence presented by the Prosecution, which gives you a clue on where
16 the issues in dispute are.
17 Please proceed.
18 MR. LUKIC: Thank you. I'll just wait for the translation.
19 Q. [Interpretation] Ms. Subotic, did the police conduct an on-site
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. How do you know that?
23 A. UNPROFOR reported that they received information from the
24 Dobrinja police. It is contained in their report. They say that the
25 Dobrinja police told them that the police had carried out an on-site
2 MR. LUKIC: Can we see P644, please.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
4 MR. WEBER: I know that we're moving on to a different document,
5 but just so counsel is aware, if he does intend to tender that last
6 document at a later stage, if he could please verify the translations for
7 paragraphs 2 and 3.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
9 MR. LUKIC: Thank you to my learned friend to drawing our
10 attention if there is something incorrect. We have probably confirm it
11 with the CLSS since it's their translation.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Ms. Subotic, before us is an investigation report regarding a
15 mortar shelling in Dobrinja and Sarajevo on 1 June 1993. We see that it
16 was prepared by the Canadian forces military police on 7 July 1993.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] May we have page 5 in the English and
18 4 in the B/C/S version. We are interested in paragraph 9.
19 Q. In the Canadian forces' report, we see that they met with
20 Mr. Kosavec and the chief of police, and that they were told that all
21 investigative material relating to this incident had been forwarded to
22 the main police station in Sarajevo.
23 While preparing your report, did you have occasion to see the
24 police report in question?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Did you read any witness statements concerning the incident?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Is there a witness statement that you would single out as being
5 A. I would single out two witness statements, because they were very
6 helpful in our analysis. The witnesses are Dinko Bakal and Ismet Fazlic.
7 Thanks to their statements and the footage made by the BiH TV, we were
8 able to draw conclusions relating to the incident. We concluded that the
9 match was not played at the parking-lot where the on-site investigation
10 was conducted but actually on a field near the parking-lot.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we have 65 ter 09939. It is the
12 same document, although it was my impression that they were two
13 documents, different ones. We need page 57 in the B/C/S and 58 in the
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I was informed that there are four B/C/S
16 translations attached to this problem. What we are looking at now is the
17 first of the B/C/S translations. I've got no idea whether there is any
18 difference or not, but ...
19 MR. LUKIC: It was checked. I was just informed that now it's on
20 page 5 in this version, cut version. In B/C/S. One moment, please.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Since we are waiting for the next question, Witness,
22 could you tell us how did you select any statements you read and you used
23 to draw conclusions?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A selection of the statements was
25 made primarily on the basis of material evidence. We only relied on such
1 statements which fit into the concept of material evidence.
2 JUDGE ORIE: But who made that selection? Did you?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: And what was then the range of material that was
5 available to you, accessible?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In this case in particular or
7 generally? You mean this incident?
8 JUDGE ORIE: No, this case. The case in which you wrote this
9 report. I mean, if you say: I only use material evidence, I do not know
10 exactly what you mean by that, but perhaps you can explain that later.
11 But what was the -- I would say the totality of materials which you could
12 choose from?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All of the material we analysed is
14 contained in the witness statements, the footage made by the police and
15 Mr. Hogan, as well as all the analyses and investigations made by the CSB
16 in the field, as well as all UNPROFOR reports from the field concerning
17 the incidents referred to in the report. Also, we visited the locations
18 in person, all of them.
19 JUDGE ORIE: But how did you get -- how did you receive that
20 material? I take it that you don't have it at home, all the witness
21 statements. I mean, who provided that to you, where you then made
22 further selections of what you considered to be material evidence?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Initial material was received when
24 we were drafting our first reports for the Karadzic case. We received it
25 from the Tribunal upon our request.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Which would, to some extent, surprise me. Was it by
2 the Defence that you received that, or did you receive it from the
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A part of the material was received
5 through Defence, and some of the material was received by my government,
6 which contacted the Tribunal. Within a relatively short period of time
7 we received the material directly from the Tribunal.
8 JUDGE ORIE: And is it anywhere described what material exactly
9 you had available when you started or a list of documents or videos or
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. We only referred to such
12 material that we used, but we did not draw up a separate list.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, you said you only used material evidence.
14 What do you mean by "material evidence"?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't say I used only material
16 evidence. What I wanted to say is that I relied on such statements and
17 video footage which tallied with the material or physical evidence that
18 existed in the field.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you.
20 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
21 MR. LUKIC: We need page 57 in English. Sorry, we have to go one
22 page back. And I cannot locate in B/C/S in this because -- this is
23 different version in B/C/S, so I cannot follow this one.
24 Q. I will read for you from English version, Ms. Subotic. And it's
25 where the text starts, and it -- there is some initials and this is the
1 answer of DB, Dinko Bakal. And I would quote:
2 "I was about 60 to 70 metres away from the place where the shell
3 landed. That happened about 10.25 to 10.30 a.m. I was in the apartment
4 at the first floor, from where I was able to see the playground very
6 JUDGE ORIE: Do you want to further read or put a question to the
8 MR. LUKIC: I should put a question.
9 I would rather actually have video now shown to everybody, with
10 the help of Mr. Ivetic. And it is 1D05919. It is ERN number V000-3497.
11 JUDGE ORIE: And, Mr. Lukic, could you guide us as where to find
12 the relevant portion in the expert report? There are so many pages that
13 you'll understand that I have sometimes some -- need some guidance to
14 find the relevant pages on which you are questioning the witness.
15 MR. LUKIC: It's footnote 119, and in English page 61.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
17 MR. LUKIC: First, we should see this video from 3 minutes,
18 12 seconds up to 4 minutes, 23 seconds.
19 [Video-clip played]
20 "I will mark this spot with an X with yellow paint with the
21 number 1 beside it."
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Now, Ms. Subotic, what did Mr. Fazlic show us in this sequence?
24 A. Mr. Fazlic showed us the place where, to the best of his
25 knowledge, was the second goal.
1 Q. Thank you. Now let us look at the sequence from 17 minutes,
2 46 seconds to 19 minutes, 16 seconds.
3 [Video-clip played]
4 "I will mark this spot with an X with yellow paint with the
5 number 1 beside it."
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. All right. Now we've seen it from a different angle. And
8 Mr. Barry Hogan marked the point that you've already indicated.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now play the video from
10 1 minute, 55 seconds to 2 minutes, 55 seconds. Could we now start
12 [Video-clip played]
13 "Could you please show me, by standing in the spot, where one of
14 the posts for the goal-posts was located on the 1st of June, 1993,
16 "Could you now please show me, by standing on the spot, where the
17 second goal-post at this end of the parking-lot was located on the 1st of
18 June, 1993, to the best of your recollection?"
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. What did he show us and why is this footage important?
21 A. Mr. Fazlic indicated the range of the goal-posts to the best of
22 his knowledge and their location. He made four steps and we can conclude
23 that the distance between goal-posts was about 4 metres.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now could we look at the sequence
1 from 9 minutes, 1 second to 10 minutes 30 seconds.
2 JUDGE ORIE: While waiting for that, Mr. Lukic, I had
3 difficulties in finding on page 61 footnote 119. If you could give me a
4 better source than ... I'm looking at the English.
5 MR. LUKIC: It's in English 61.
6 JUDGE ORIE: It's 51, yes, but there -- do I find there
7 material which is related to --
8 MR. LUKIC: 61. 61.
9 JUDGE ORIE: 61.
10 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: On -- do you mean e-court page 61 or do you mean
12 page 61 as --
13 MR. LUKIC: Should be same.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I'm looking at the PDF report at this moment,
15 but perhaps I should move to the ... thank you.
16 MR. LUKIC: Welcome.
17 [Video-clip played]
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. So beginning with 9 minutes, 1 second to 10 minutes, 33 seconds.
20 Let us play this part of the video.
21 [Video-clip played]
22 "Mr. Fazlic, could you now please show me, by standing on the
23 spot and indicating with your hand, the outer limit of the playing field
24 which was lined with wrecked cars, to the best of your recollection, on
25 the 1st of June, 1993?
1 "Once again, could you please stand on the -- on the spot, and
2 indicate with your hand as you stand on the spot?
3 "I will now draw a line along this plane with yellow spray paint.
4 "Would you now please show me, by standing on the spot, where, to
5 the best of your" --
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. What did he show us and why is it important?
8 A. Mr. Fazlic showed us the location of old cars that were lined on
9 the edge -- along the edge of the playing field on the critical location,
10 and it's important because the television filmed on the very same day the
11 footage we indicated in paragraph 35, picture 28, where these cars are at
12 an angle of 90 degrees.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] So could we return to 1D5498.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
15 MR. WEBER: Before moving on to another exhibit, is counsel
16 tendering the video that we've just watched?
17 MR. LUKIC: I think that we agreed to tender documents at the
18 end. You proposed that.
19 MR. WEBER: I don't recall proposing that, but I do think it's
20 more efficient to tender it because we are going to be using a lot of
21 documents to tender as we go.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Most important is that we keep track of it, and one
23 of the advantages of tendering them right away, unless there is any good
24 reason to expect that there would be additions to it, is that we -- once
25 they are tendered, of course we are -- we feel free -- if we have
1 admitted it, we feel free to consult it on our computers.
2 MR. LUKIC: I am not sure if this is not in evidence already --
3 JUDGE ORIE: I couldn't tell you. It's indicated by its 65 --
4 well, it's by ERN number in footnote 119. So you should tell me whether
5 it's in evidence already, Mr. Lukic. I can't know that. Because it has
6 no P number is -- I think I do remember that I've seen it.
7 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, there has been a still from the video
8 portion that you've seen that's been shown before, if the image is
9 familiar. However, the video itself is not in evidence. We would ask
10 that the full portion from scheduled incident G-4 be included as -- and
11 tendered as a video.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 MR. WEBER: I'm not sure if that's what's completely in this
14 clip, but that's what we would ask to be admitted.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic --
16 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: -- could you upload the G-4 section of that video
18 and then in its entirety so that we have the full context.
19 MR. LUKIC: We can do that, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And would you already that we provide a
21 provisional number?
22 MR. LUKIC: Yes, we cannot upload before we get from the
23 Prosecution what they want to have.
24 JUDGE ORIE: The whole of G-4 --
25 MR. LUKIC: Oh, yeah.
1 JUDGE ORIE: -- that's what Mr. Weber asked for.
2 MR. LUKIC: Yes. Yes. It's a bit hard, and I'm not [overlapping
3 speakers] --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber --
5 MR. LUKIC: -- with that.
6 JUDGE ORIE: -- would you be willing to select the times for the
7 whole of G-4 and then provide that to Mr. Lukic --
8 MR. WEBER: I will.
9 JUDGE ORIE: -- so that he can upload it.
10 MR. WEBER: I will provide the specific time codes, both start
11 and -- and for the ERN so Mr. Lukic can do that.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Lukic, Mr. Weber will assist you in
13 getting it into evidence, the whole of G-4. Please proceed.
14 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
15 JUDGE ORIE: And, yes, we already reserve a number for that. We
16 can't MFI it yet because it's not ...
17 Madam Registrar, the number reserved for the G-4 portion of this
18 video would be?
19 THE REGISTRAR: D1244, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And that one is reserved.
21 Please proceed.
22 JUDGE ORIE: The witness -- Mr. Lukic, there should be no
23 speaking at audible level for -- even when you consult with Mr. Poparic.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And during this consultation, the microphone
25 should be switched off.
1 MR. LUKIC: I keep forgetting today the whole day.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I do it now and then as well, Mr. Lukic.
3 Please proceed.
4 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
5 Q. [Interpretation] Ms. Subotic, we have already seen your report on
6 the screen.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now we need picture 28. That's page
8 64 in B/C/S. And also 64 in English.
9 Q. How did this photograph find its way into your report?
10 A. As you can see, this is a still from a TV broadcast that day.
11 It's a still taken from a film, and it's there for the reasons explained
12 before. We have shown -- in fact, Mr. Fazlic showed the direction --
13 Q. Just a minute, I want to ask something now.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Namely that the photograph be
15 enlarged and that we see only one photograph on the screen.
16 Now I would like to ask the usher's assistance in helping
17 Ms. Subotic mark certain things here.
18 Q. Ms. Subotic, could you please mark the place where Mr. Fazlic
19 showed one goal was located?
20 A. [Marks]
21 Q. In this circle?
22 A. I don't know if it's really visible here. I have a better
23 photograph in my paper.
24 Q. What can be seen in this circle?
25 A. One goal that is used in football games. And it's between the
1 red car and the blue car.
2 Q. Put number 1 there, please.
3 A. [Marks]
4 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness please tell us exactly where she
5 sees a goal in this picture? Because that's, I think, what she said.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you look carefully, you will be
8 able to see that between the red car and the blue car, in front of the
9 red car and closer to the red car. Do you want me to draw a line where I
10 see it?
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps we first zoom in -- perhaps we get
12 this one, because if you zoom it in then --
13 MR. LUKIC: We need this -- this -- yeah.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Please mark where you see the goal.
15 MR. LUKIC: And if you can check picture 29, Your Honour, it's
16 better visible, the small goal.
17 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please.
18 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the witness has marked where she saw the goal.
20 Do you want --
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, your microphone is on.
23 One second, please.
24 So you indicated where Mr. Fazlic showed that one of the goals
25 was located. Yes.
1 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
2 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Do you tender this marked photograph?
4 MR. LUKIC: I need something else to be marked on it.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then we'll wait for that.
6 Please proceed.
7 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
8 Q. [Interpretation] Could you now please mark, if you can, the place
9 where Mr. Fazlic showed the cars were lined?
10 A. Yes, of course.
11 Q. Thank you. You put number 2 there?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Would you now indicate where the pitch was at Dobrinja?
14 A. [Marks]
15 Q. You've written number 3 to mark the pitch.
16 MR. LUKIC: It's a break time.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Before we take that break, what did you
18 exactly mean by "the pitch," and how did the witness understand that?
19 MR. LUKIC: There was a playing ground, actually, nearby, where
20 football could be played, and it was empty.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, well, you can play wherever football --
22 wherever you want to play football. But I would have one --
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I would kindly ask the witness to confirm that
24 this was her understanding.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Did you understand "the pitch" to be what?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The playing field. The pitch is a
2 place where football is played. And based on the data and the dimensions
3 showed by Mr. Fazlic, it's perfectly clear that the so-called small
4 football was played then, because the distance, as he showed it, between
5 the goal-posts was 3 metres. It was not big football. The goal-posts
6 were here, where indicated, and they were later removed and instead
7 basketball hoops were placed there.
8 What we marked down below is -- that's the goal-post used for
9 small football.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I think I do not fully understand what you mean.
11 You marked what you said was a goal between the red and the blue car. Is
12 that a goal that was used during the play as far as you concluded?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That was not the goal that was used.
15 Now, all your conclusions, that's all based on analysing
16 documentary evidence, is that well understood? Or has it got anything to
17 do with your expertise as an expert in weaponry and projectiles?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said at the beginning that in all
19 our reports we wrote what we wrote based on the entire material we had,
20 and they were later grounded and confirmed based on physical evidence,
21 which is the only relevant evidence as far as my profession is concerned.
22 We took into account everything that constituted physical
23 evidence in my profession.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May --
1 JUDGE ORIE: That is not really an answer to my question, because
2 interpreting evidence, whether physical or not -- I mean, to see what a
3 goal is and what the FIFA says what the size of a goal should be,
4 et cetera, that's not within your expertise, is it?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not my area of expertise, but
6 it had to be analysed because there were discrepancies between the
7 indications given by Witness Fazlic and what the television filmed on the
8 scene and what he himself said. We had to find out what it was about,
9 because he was one of the key witnesses in this story.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I put one question to you, Ms. Subotic.
13 You said you used physical evidence. What kind of physical
14 evidence did you use to establish that the spot you indicated as number 3
15 is the playground?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In this case, we only used the
17 video footage and the testimony filmed by Mr. Barry Hogan to compare the
18 area where it happened. And as you can see on this picture, we see the
19 trace of one shell. We don't know when it fell.
20 We have traces that are symbolic --
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May --
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- in comparison with a number of
23 victims mentioned.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I interrupt you. You said you analysed the
25 evidence of Barry Hogan and the witness to establish that number 3 is the
1 playground, if I understood you correctly. You have no so-called
2 physical evidence with respect to number 3?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct, correct.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And --
5 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ...
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- what did you then say?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We only have the testimony of
8 Mr. -- bear with me for a second, Dinko, who testified --
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- that the shells landed on the
11 playing field.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is your interpretation of a witness's
13 evidence. It's what we have in court.
14 You said:
15 "As you can see on this picture, we see the trace of one shell."
16 Where do we find that?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do you want me to mark it?
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes.
19 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You marked the spot with number 4. How did you
21 establish from this footage that this is a trace of a shell?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was not only based on this
23 footage. There were also witness statements that a shell fell on the
24 playing field the previous day, and then we confirmed it based on this
25 still -- just a moment, excuse me.
1 Could you -- could you erase this for me?
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: No, we can't move it in any way.
3 THE WITNESS: Can you help me, please?
4 JUDGE ORIE: We can't move it at this moment because you're --
5 THE WITNESS: Yes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: -- Witness, because there are markings on it and
7 then we cannot at this moment change it.
8 What -- what did you want --
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: What did you want to mark?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. I wanted to mark
11 blood-stains. It's all much better visible on my enlarged picture.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Now, you crossed out the previous marking number
13 4 and you put a new marking with number 4 and you say this is -- and you
14 say these are blood --
15 THE WITNESS: Yes.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- stains.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Are these blood-stains or a trace of a shell?
19 What is it, blood-stains or trace of a shell?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. The trace of a shell is
21 in the centre of this number 4, and blood-stains is this stripe.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I take it that you now put a number 5 where you
23 consider to be a trace of a shell; is that correct? Or is it
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Number 5 are the blood-stains.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Could I try --
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Again, without doing any additional markings, I
3 just want to understand what you did. I asked you where we can see the
4 trace of a shell, and you indicated that you concluded it from witness
5 testimony. You couldn't see that in this picture; correct?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On this photograph, we see the
7 trace of an old shell impact that we also have witness testimony about,
8 and the number of people injured --
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: No, please --
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- during this playing field
11 incident, which was minimal, we concluded that it didn't happen in this
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You are not answering my question.
14 So you may proceed, Mr. Lukic.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, please -- we take a break, Mr. Lukic.
16 MR. LUKIC: Maybe it's better to finish this. Just a couple of
17 more minutes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Well, fine if you would. But then, of course, we
19 are coming close to --
20 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] ...
21 JUDGE ORIE: I mean, if you would continue for another --
22 MR. LUKIC: 15 --
23 JUDGE ORIE: -- 20 minutes, then, of course we would conclude for
24 the day and have an early -- but I don't know whether Mr. Mladic would
25 prefer to continue for another 20 minutes or take a break first?
1 [Defence counsel and accused confer]
2 MR. LUKIC: My suggestion is not well received, so ...
3 JUDGE ORIE: Then, it's -- no, we have short sessions. We'll
4 take a break and we'll -- Mr. Weber.
5 MR. WEBER: Before the break, if we could just --
6 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
7 MR. WEBER: -- admit the marked video -- the --
8 MR. LUKIC: Yes, if possible maybe to erase this criss-crossed
9 number 4.
10 JUDGE ORIE: No. No, no, we are not going to erase any evidence.
11 Whether it will be adjusted later, you can tender or you cannot tender
12 it. If you do so, we'll -- and then of course, you can have it on the
13 screen back later and do whatever other markings, but the transcript will
14 be incomprehensible if we now would change it.
15 MR. LUKIC: Okay. We tender this document.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
17 THE REGISTRAR: The marked photo on page 64 of document 1D5498
18 receives Exhibit D1245, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
20 The witness may follow the usher.
21 [The witness stands down]
22 JUDGE ORIE: We will resume at 5 minutes to 2.00.
23 --- Recess taken at 1.37 p.m.
24 --- On resuming at 1.57 p.m.
25 JUDGE ORIE: We're waiting for the witness to be escorted into
1 the courtroom.
2 [The witness takes the stand]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, Mr. Lukic, I would have one
5 Witness, you told us that the imprint of a shell impact on the
6 parking-lot was of a previous day. How were you able to establish on
7 what day that imprint was created by the explosion of a shell?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The witnesses stated so. If you
9 want to be able to see the imprint better, it --
10 JUDGE ORIE: No --
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- is in paragraph 40, image 33.
12 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not -- perhaps I may look at it because if your
13 report will be in evidence, we look at every single detail of it. But I
14 just wondered -- so you say that that's an old imprint, that is, a couple
15 of days before, that's because the witnesses said so?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: And they commented on this picture when saying that
18 this is an old imprint?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. They stated that a shell had
20 landed on the parking-lot the previous day. They did not comment this
21 still. It comes from the TV footage, which was shown only after the
23 JUDGE ORIE: Were there also witnesses who said that a shell
24 landed on the parking-lot on the day of the incident at -- that, as a
25 matter of fact, being the incident, are witnesses saying that as well?
1 Other witnesses.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Other witnesses stated that the
3 game was played on the pitch and the lot. It differed. They only talked
4 about the mines, the shells, which landed at the place where the game was
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And some of them said that that was on the
7 parking-lot, were they?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. Fazlic stated that it was
9 in the parking-lot.
10 JUDGE ORIE: And other witnesses?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, some stated that it took
12 place in the parking-lot, but I am unable to quote off-the-cuff. If you
13 wish me to do so, I can make a list of who said what.
14 JUDGE ORIE: No, I'm just wondering what made you choose the one
15 statement to be reliable, the other one not to be reliable. That's -- if
16 witnesses say that they played on the parking-lot and that's where the
17 shell fell, and if you are telling us that the play was somewhere else,
18 then I wonder what makes you -- what brings you in a position to assess
19 the reliability and the accuracy of what those witnesses said?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A moment ago, I responded to
21 another Judge's question. We looked at the footage, and had these
22 imprints been created on that day, with so many people wounded, the
23 footage taken by the TV crew must have shown at least two different
24 imprints and a lot of picture all over the place -- a lot of blood all
25 over the place.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Now, when marking the still of this picture, you
2 initially marked a number 4 which you then crossed out again and said
3 that was an imprint of a shell and then you say, no, it was not, and then
4 you marked another place again with 4 which you say was an imprint of a
5 shell. It's -- I'm puzzled by the fact that you say there should have
6 been blood and two imprints because, on the basis of your marking, there
7 is at least one imprint, and initially you said there was another one but
8 you withdrew that, and you said there were blood-stains on the
10 Again, it seems that you explain it by saying that was all from
11 the day before, but it's not entirely clear to me on what basis, having
12 heard your explanation, you drew that conclusion. Could you explain?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that the still was taken on
14 the same day when the incident took place. I also said that Mr. Fazlic
15 and Mr. Dinko stated that a shell had landed the previous day in the
16 parking-lot. I also said that if there were 101 wounded, if the imprints
17 were related to the incident, there would have been far more blood than
18 can be seen in the parking-lot.
19 There is another reason to believe that there was no game played
20 in the parking-lot, which is the small goal.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I was not inviting you -- I only asked you
22 about what made you believe that the imprints were from the previous day.
23 I now have understood that you have evaluated all the evidence that was
24 available to you, and you concluded that this is how it should have been,
25 including the amount of blood on the floor, et cetera, which all is not
1 within your expertise, is it?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wouldn't say so. I cannot look
3 into imprints and traces in an isolated fashion without trying to include
4 them in the overall picture, because then it would put us in the
5 following situation: We have no police report, we do have an UNPROFOR
6 report, and so on. That would be strictly speaking within my domain.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, it is for this Chamber to evaluate and
8 assess all the evidence which is before it. It's your task to answer
9 questions related to your expertise.
10 And, Mr. Lukic, you are invited to proceed, but could you please
11 try to focus on what this witness can tell us as an expert rather than to
12 draw conclusions on what should have been seen and -- which is totally
13 unrelated to her expertise.
14 Of course, whatever other way you want to establish that, but
15 let's avoid that this witness is doing the job of the Chamber.
16 Please proceed.
17 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, we -- our position is that it is very
18 harmful for the truth to have partial evidence, and that's what is --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic --
20 MR. LUKIC: -- happening all the time.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I am not telling you that you should not
22 present other evidence. I am telling you that if you call a witness as
23 an expert on ballistics, that that witness to draw all other kind of
24 conclusions which are to be drawn by the Chamber, present the facts and
25 leave the conclusions in the field of ballistics to the expert and in
1 other fields to the Chamber.
2 Please proceed.
3 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, it would be possible -- no, no, I have
4 to respond --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic --
6 MR. LUKIC: It would be possible --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, please proceed. Next question to the
8 witness, please.
9 MR. LUKIC: It would be possible if they were on the site at that
10 time. They had to use everything that they had.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I told you - that's my ruling - that you
12 should put your next question to the witness.
13 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Q. [Interpretation] Ms. Subotic, you said you did not have a police
15 report from 1993. When was the first police report on the incident
17 A. The first one was made in 1995.
18 Q. What was the basis of their work two years later?
19 A. That is the right question to ask. I'd rather not go into it.
20 In their findings, they state that they found a crater, analysed it, and
21 determined the direction wrongly, inaccurately.
22 Q. I think there is some confusion. Did you visit the site?
23 A. Yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask, when you said they determined the
25 direction wrongly, is that what they said or is that what you tell us?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is what I'm telling you based on
2 material evidence and traces found in the parking-lot where they too took
3 their measurements.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Ms. Subotic, did you measure the traces in the single imprint of
7 an exploded shell in the parking-lot?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. So your conclusions are based not only on the footage, witness
10 statements, and police reports, but they also included your measurements
11 of a crater in the location where one shell exploded in the parking-lot?
12 A. Yes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
14 MR. WEBER: I know we're pressing for the finish today, but can
15 we have some clear record when -- when were these measurements, how were
16 they taken?
17 JUDGE ORIE: It would assist if you would explore that matter --
18 MR. LUKIC: I'm sorry that I missed that.
19 JUDGE ORIE: -- otherwise Mr. Weber will do it.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. First of all, I was cautioned to verify English interpretation.
22 What you found, is it one of two traces or the only one?
23 A. In 1995, it was the only trace, as we were able to establish when
24 examining a witness who was in charge of the investigation when he
25 testified in the Karadzic case.
1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Would the witness kindly
2 repeat the last name because we did not hear it.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Did you find the other one?
5 JUDGE ORIE: One second, Mr. Lukic.
6 Witness, could you repeat the name of that witness? The last
7 name you mentioned, because the interpreters couldn't hear it.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course. Mirza Sabljica, the
9 gentleman who was in charge of the investigation. He is a ballistics
10 expert of the CSB.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you gave the name. Thank you.
12 Please proceed.
13 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Q. [Interpretation] So, did you manage to locate the other imprint?
15 A. In 2010 when we visited the location, there were two imprints in
16 the parking-lot. They can also be found in the documents -- recorded in
17 the documents created back in 2001 by the investigators.
18 Q. According to the documents you were able to review, when is the
19 first mention of the second imprint?
20 A. We found it for the first time in 2001, meaning that it occurred
21 sometime in between, between 1995 and 2001.
22 MR. LUKIC: I think it's the end of our workday, at least in the
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but I would have one short question.
25 MR. LUKIC: Sure.
1 JUDGE ORIE: You said in 1995 there was only one trace, and you
2 learned that from a witness. Is that understood?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I said that I read it in the
4 CSB report, which conducted its first investigation relating to the
5 incident at that time.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And perhaps you could -- could you tell us
7 which report that exactly was and where it is footnoted, perhaps? Is
8 that what we find on page -- is that Exhibit P872?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, footnote 148 and several
10 others, because we've referred to it multiple times.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, 148. That's P872. Thank you for that
13 Mr. Lukic.
14 MR. LUKIC: And only when Mirza Sabljica testified and where.
15 Maybe this witness should clarify.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Well, couldn't the parties agree on where he
17 testified and --
18 MR. LUKIC: Our position is that he testified during the trial in
19 Karadzic case and he gave that -- that data --
20 JUDGE ORIE: But again, was the witness there when he testified?
21 This witness was there? But you both are aware of when he testified in
22 the Karadzic case, isn't it? Is that something -- is there any dispute
23 about it?
24 MR. LUKIC: There is no dispute on our side --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
1 MR. LUKIC: -- that he testified that there was only one marking
2 when he was conducting the investigation.
3 JUDGE ORIE: That's the content of the testimony --
4 MR. WEBER: That was --
5 JUDGE ORIE: -- which is different from whether he testified or
6 not. Apparently the parties agree that he testified and we'll hear any
7 further details if need be tomorrow.
8 Witness, I -- we'll adjourn for the day. We would like to see
9 you back tomorrow morning at 9.30. As I instructed you before, you're
10 not allowed to speak or communicate by whatever means with whomever, that
11 includes counsel, that includes co-authors of your report, about your
12 testimony. If that's clear to you, we'd like to see you back tomorrow
13 morning and you may follow the usher.
14 [The witness stands down]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I again urge you to focus on what such a
16 witness could bring us; that is, that she tells us about her expertise,
17 that she does not start to evaluate the totality of the evidence. We not
18 even knowing exactly always what it is that she has seen or what she has
19 not seen. But if she moves away from her expertise, she should be
20 considered a witness of fact and then we need a clear foundation of the
21 sources of knowledge. And as usual, witnesses of fact are not expected
22 to give an evaluation of the evidence.
23 We adjourn for the day and will resume tomorrow, Wednesday, the
24 23rd of September, 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, I.
25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.17 p.m.,
1 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 23rd day
2 of September, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.