1 Monday, 26 October 2015
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
9 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 The Chamber was informed that there was one preliminary matter to
12 be raised by the Prosecution. How much time would that take?
13 MS. HASAN: Good morning, Your Honours. Just a minute.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Just a minute.
15 MS. HASAN: Less.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Then could the witness perhaps already be prepared
17 to enter the courtroom.
18 MS. HASAN: Yes, Your Honours. This is in relation to Defence
19 Exhibit D1061, that was admitted last Thursday and we were given an
20 opportunity until today to revisit the admission of that document, and
21 this is just to inform you that we have no objection to its admission.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And it was already admitted, so --
23 MS. HASAN: Yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: -- we don't have to take any further action.
25 Thank you, Ms. Hasan.
1 Mr. Stojanovic, viva voce, one hour and a half, is that --
2 [The witness entered court]
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Gajic --
5 THE WITNESS: Good morning.
6 JUDGE ORIE: -- I presume.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you
9 make a solemn declaration of which the text is now handed out to you.
10 May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
12 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
13 WITNESS: LJUBODRAG GAJIC
14 [Witness answered through interpreter]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated, Mr. Gajic.
16 Mr. Gajic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Stojanovic. You'll
17 find Mr. Stojanovic to your left. Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for
18 Mr. Mladic.
19 Could you move slightly away from the microphone, not too much,
20 but just a bit. Yes.
21 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
24 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Witness, could you please slowly state your
25 name and surname.
1 A. I am Ljubodrag Gajic.
2 Q. Mr. Gajic, could you please tell the Court what you are in terms
3 of your education?
4 A. I'm a banking clerk.
5 Q. Do you have any kind of military training and education?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did you serve in the military? Did you do your military service?
8 A. Yes, in the Republic of Serbia, actually the then Federal
9 Republic of Yugoslavia.
10 Q. What year?
11 A. 1993, 1994.
12 Q. Mr. Gajic, where were you born?
13 A. In Zavidovici, the Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could I ask you to make a little pause
15 between question and answer so that the interpreters are better able to
16 interpret your words.
17 THE WITNESS: Okay.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Where did you live until 1995?
21 A. In Valjevo, the Republic of Serbia.
22 Q. Where do you live now?
23 A. Likewise, Valjevo, the Republic of Serbia.
24 Q. In 1995, were you in Bosnia-Herzegovina at any point in time?
25 A. No, until June 1995.
1 Q. What happened in June 1995? How come you were in
2 Bosnia-Herzegovina then?
3 A. During the night between the 20th and the 21st of June, the
4 police in Valjevo came to my house and they said that they needed to
5 check some documentation related to me. They brought me in for some kind
6 of interview, investigation interview.
7 Q. What happened after that?
8 A. After that, during that night, during that morning, together with
9 other men who had been brought in, I was taken by bus first to the
10 building of the Ministry of the Interior in Zvornik and Dusko Jevic came
11 there. Of course then I didn't know him. And from the people who were
12 there -- from among the people who were there, he chose people for police
13 formations, people who he found suitable. At that moment I was a citizen
14 of the Republic of Serbia and a person who had regularly done his
15 military service in Serbia, so there were no legal grounds for me to be
16 there where I was then.
17 Q. Please tell us, when you say all of that happened at the police
18 in Zvornik, what state is Zvornik in?
19 A. In Bosnia-Herzegovina.
20 Q. After Mr. Jevic carried out this selection that included you,
21 where were you sent from Zvornik?
22 A. We were sent to Mount Jahorina. That mountain is also in
23 Bosnia-Herzegovina. At that time - how do I put this? - the centre, the
24 training centre for police formations of Republika Srpska was there then.
25 Q. Throughout this time your group, and you personally, did you have
1 any contact with the Army of Republika Srpska?
2 A. No. No contact. We had no contact with the army.
3 Q. Could you briefly tell the Court what you did at this training
4 centre in Jahorina and how things evolved while you were there?
5 A. Practically from the 21st of June until the 10th of July, in the
6 centre we carried out preparations for physical and tactical training.
7 So we were trained in different ways, to fire from different firearms.
8 All in all, we were trained physically and tactically, and this was
9 carried out -- this training was carried out by instructors from the MUP
10 of Republika Srpska.
11 Q. Did you object? Did you ask to have your status resolved because
12 you were not a citizen of Bosnia and Herzegovina and Republika Srpska?
13 A. Yes, I protested several times because I was kept there by force.
14 And people who were up there said that I was a deserter. Although
15 realistically that had nothing to do with me. Basically all people who
16 were up there were proclaimed to be deserters, and I protested on account
17 of my status several times.
18 Q. Were you given a specific task at one point in time, and did you
19 leave the training centre at Jahorina?
20 A. Yes. On the 11th of July, 1995, we were given a specific task.
21 The unit was lined up in front of the hotel where we were and we were
22 given the specific task to go to eastern Bosnia. At that moment we did
23 not know where it was that we were going, but that unit that was there,
24 that was undergoing this training, set out towards eastern Bosnia.
25 Q. Can you tell the Court, to the best of your recollection, what
1 this task was, what this assignment you were given then was? Why you
2 were going to eastern Bosnia.
3 A. Mr. Saric, commander of the special police brigade, he lined up
4 the unit that morning and he said that the unit that was undergoing
5 training until then was going out for the first time into official
6 combat. He did not say where we were going, but he said that we were
7 going into combat and that we were trained for that purpose during all of
8 those days while we were there and that the unit was setting out, going
9 into proper combat, because before that, the unit had not taken part in
10 any kind of combat.
11 Q. Please don't mind if I pause for a moment. I'm just waiting for
12 the interpretation.
13 A. Okay, fine.
14 Q. Please just do slow down a bit. To the best of your
15 recollection, how many people set out from the Jahorina training centre?
16 A. To the best of my recollection, I think it was between 150 and
17 200 men.
18 Q. How did you set out? What means of transportation were used?
19 A. Buses.
20 Q. And where did you arrive on that day and where did you stay?
21 A. On that day, the 11th of July, we arrived in the village of
22 Bjelovac, that is close to Bratunac in eastern Bosnia-Herzegovina. And
23 we stayed in some school that is right by the Drina river.
24 Q. Were you given a specific new task at any point in time?
25 A. Early in the morning on the 12th of July, they woke us up and we
1 boarded these buses and went out on this new specific task.
2 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber whether this task was communicated
3 to you in writing, orally, or whether you were given any kind of specific
4 duty in relation to this task?
5 A. All tasks were communicated to us orally. And at that moment
6 when we set out, none of us knew where it was that we were going. We
7 passed the town of Bratunac. And since that was the first time ever that
8 I was there -- actually, I was there only once. We set out towards the
9 town of Srebrenica. Not far away from Potocari where the separation line
10 was, between the Muslim -- or rather, Bosniak formation and the Serb
11 forces, that's where it was.
12 Q. On that day as you were carrying out this task, was there any
13 fighting with the forces of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
14 A. We arrived in the early morning of the 12th of July. I think it
15 was about 6.00 or 6.30 in the morning. And the unit was close to this
16 yellow bridge, and that is where the unit got off the buses. And then
17 again we were given this order orally to wait there. And after a while
18 we went further ahead - how do I put this? - to break through these lines
19 where the Dutch soldiers were. They were the ones who kept this
20 separation line.
21 Q. You mentioned Dutch soldiers. I want to ask you something in
22 that regard. Do you remember whether there was any kind of clash or
23 combat with members of the Dutch Battalion that morning?
24 A. No. No, the Dutch soldiers did not put up any kind of armed
25 resistance, so there was no fighting with the members of the Dutch
2 Q. Did you have any kind of orders in relation to any kind of
3 possible fighting with members of the Dutch Battalion, and were you
4 personally told how members of the Dutch Battalion were supposed to be
6 A. As far as I can remember, we were told that the Dutch soldiers
7 would voluntarily surrender. That's what we were told, there would be no
8 problems, and that we should treat Dutch soldiers -- I don't know what
9 the legal term is for this. Not to treat them as soldiers in that sense
10 but they should be treated as someone who is not going to put up any kind
11 of resistance towards us.
12 Q. That morning, did you actually encounter members of the Dutch
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Could you tell the Trial Chamber where this happened and what
16 this contact looked like -- or rather, this encounter with the members of
17 the Dutch Battalion?
18 A. On the separation line itself, there was this observation post of
19 the Dutch Battalion. And first a tank set out and we were walking next
20 to that tank -- well, maybe it wasn't exactly this way, but as far as I
21 can remember, there were some barricades there and the tank went through
22 these barricades and we were walking on the left and right next to the
23 tank. The tank went through this barricade and then it started entering
24 the territory that was then under the control of the Army of
1 Q. What did this contact look like, the one that you spoke of just
2 now? With the members of the Dutch Battalion, that is.
3 A. At the moment when we entered, there was no conflict situation.
4 There was no combat. Nothing like that. And we were told that the army
5 and police that were there should move left and right. They should take
6 up that area.
7 Q. Did you personally have any kind of contact with the members of
8 the Dutch Battalion?
9 A. At that moment I think that Mr. Jevic told me to move right and
10 walk up the observation post. So I went up and I encountered two
11 soldiers of the Dutch Battalion there, so I was just told to control that
12 particular point. It was then that I had this informal conversation with
13 members of the Dutch Battalion.
14 Q. What kind of uniform did you wear at the time? Did you have any
16 A. Our unit had no insignia. We had very specific green combat
17 fatigues. Never before or after did I see such uniforms.
18 Q. Were there any conflicts or was the situation unpleasant when you
19 encountered the members of DutchBat at the observation post?
20 A. No, quite the contrary. We engaged in an informal conversation
21 since I spoke English. We simply started chatting about topics unrelated
22 to war. They also had some magazines there, music magazines. Since I
23 was interested in music, we started discussing different music topics,
24 rock bands, et cetera. So a purely informal conversation that had
25 nothing to do with the situation itself.
1 Q. What followed?
2 A. After that there was a need to establish linguistic
3 communication, given the fact that no one else in the unit could speak
4 English, and the Serbian forces had already entered the area. That is
5 why communication had to be established with members of DutchBat.
6 Mr. Jevic, who commanded the unit, asked around trying to find
7 someone who could speak English. One of the soldiers overheard my
8 conversation up at the observation tower with the DutchBat soldiers. He
9 approached me then and asked me if I could speak English. I said that I
10 had some basic knowledge of English from primary and secondary school and
11 that I can communicate in English although not necessarily very well. He
12 summoned me and he said: Do join us, we need you.
13 Q. You said that one of the soldiers told this to Dusko Jevic. Did
14 you have in mind the members of the RS -- VRS or of the police?
15 A. I think they were members of the police as far as I remember.
16 Q. Do you remember what you interpreted for Commander Jevic?
17 A. As far as I remember, Dusko Jevic wanted to know -- well, there
18 was a wire or a fence separating the people who were inside the factory
19 or a factory where members of the DutchBat were from the rest. He first
20 asked me to inquire whether there were any civilians inside the factory.
21 Q. And after that?
22 A. I don't know how much time passed. But in any case,
23 Mr. Borovcanin, who was deputy commander of the special police, and
24 Jevic, who was in command of our unit, wanted to enter the factory
25 compound to see for themselves what the situation was like and to see
1 whether the people there were civilians or whether there were any
2 military units inside.
3 Q. You mentioned that conversation.
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And on that count, Your Honours,
5 could we have P01147. For identification, it is footage V000-9266.
6 Could we have a look at some part of the footage from 03:02 to 04:10.
7 Your Honours, there is a transcript which is already in evidence
8 in B/C/S. Just so that we can follow, for the transcript it is on
9 page 39, line 12, to page 40, line 22. In the English version of the
10 entire footage, it is the English page 44 from line 12, to page 45,
11 line 15. If possible, I would like to view the footage 03:02.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, have you provided the --
13 [Video-clip played]
14 "The highest? I think at the -- I think at OP Papa" --
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't think so
16 because we have the captions, the subtitles.
17 [Video-clip played]
18 "Who is the main man? Who is the highest chief in this? The
19 main chief?
21 "He is talking with your general there. Our main chief.
22 "Is there any civilian inside? Is there any civilian, women,
24 "Women and children, yes?
2 "How many?
3 "I think about 4.000.
5 "I think about 4.000.
6 "Is there any Muslim soldiers in the inside?
7 "No. I can guarantee that there is no Muslim soldiers" --
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could we please stop
9 the footage ten seconds prior to this still and keep it there.
10 Q. Mr. Gajic --
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] A little bit more so as to be
12 able to see the participants in the conversation.
13 Q. The footage you just saw, is it the event you just discussed?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. We see two participants in a conversation on the other side of
16 the fence. Do you understand who they are, and who are the two people
17 seeking information from the Dutch soldiers?
18 A. You mean on this Serb side?
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. One of them is Commander Dusko Jevic, the other person is myself.
21 Q. Thank you. Just one moment. Was there any mention in that
22 conversation that you can remember that some requests were made by the
23 Serb side for the members of DutchBat to be disarmed?
24 A. Not that I know.
25 Q. Were there any requests at that moment to have the people -- the
1 population in the DutchBat base to leave the base itself since they did
2 not belong to DutchBat?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Thank you. Let us now go back to the part you mentioned.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, before we do so could it be checked,
6 and I'm looking at page 12, line 6, it reads:
7 "No, I think assure that there is no Muslim soldiers."
8 Could that be verified later because it doesn't make much sense.
9 It could be that it was said "I can assure," but I was quite certain
10 about that.
11 Meanwhile, we can proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I understand.
13 So let us continue.
14 Q. Did you at some point enter the facility, i.e., the UNPROFOR base
15 or Dutch base?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Can you tell us who entered the facility?
18 A. Mr. Borovcanin did; Mr. Jevic did; Goran Markovic, who was my
19 platoon commander; and myself. The four of us.
20 Q. What did you see in the facility?
21 A. We saw that there were Muslim civilians there, Bosniaks.
22 Q. In your view there was some mention of a figure, i.e., 400. Do
23 you think it was correct once you entered?
24 A. I think it was correct. There were several hundred people,
25 although I don't know how many exactly. I couldn't estimate but I would
1 say between 350 and 500 people, so the figure of 400 is quite realistic.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Stojanovic, may I briefly interrupt.
3 Witness, when we saw the footage and heard the interpretation, at
4 least I heard the figure of 4.000. Is that part of the communication you
5 were participating in?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I remember, there were
7 several hundreds.
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. But the question was: In the course of your conversation between
10 Dusko Jevic and yourself and the members of DutchBat, was there a mention
11 made of 4.000 people?
12 A. I'm not sure. It could be.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. We can verify that later with respect
14 to the video.
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you for your intervention.
16 Q. The next thing I wanted to ask you is this. In this second
17 contact with the members of DutchBat and the group of people you just
18 described, did you hear of any requests made to have the members of
19 DutchBat disarmed or that they should be limited in terms of freedom of
21 A. No.
22 Q. What followed during that day, if you can tell us briefly? What
23 could you see and observe in Potocari?
24 A. We left the factory, the four people I mentioned. I don't know
25 how much time passed. It may have been around 10.30 or 11.00 in the
1 morning when General Mladic arrived. It wasn't at this position where
2 the footage was taken, it was a bit further away, and he found Mr. Jevic
3 and myself there when he arrived with his entourage. He greeted us. He
4 asked Mr. Jevic what unit he was from and Mr. Jevic said that he was from
5 the police forces. Mr. Mladic then commented, saying: How come it is
6 always you guys from the police that can be found wherever something is
7 taking place?
8 Mr. Jevic held two Motorola radio hand-held devices, one in each
9 hand, for communication, and Mr. Mladic asked him why he needed two
10 Motorolas. Mr. Jevic seemed confused and fell silent. Then
11 General Mladic told him: I hope you were not going to speak to yourself.
12 Q. Now that you have a clear idea of the area, where was this
13 conversation taking place as opposed to, for example, the facility, the
15 A. It was some 100 metres away from this location from where the
16 footage was taken, or perhaps 150 metres. Let's say between 100 and
17 200 metres from that location, a bit higher up.
18 Q. On that occasion, did General Mladic issue any orders to
19 Dusko Jevic that you could overhear?
20 A. No. Later on we were joined by Borovcanin, who was deputy
21 commander of the police -- special -- police special brigade. From that
22 location where we met him, we returned to the approximate area of the
23 footage. As far as I remember, there was a very large oak tree there
24 where we took shelter in the shade. Dusko Jevic was there and Borovcanin
25 and I think Goran Markovic, who was my commander at the time, as well as
1 some other officers who may have been members of the Bratunac or Zvornik
2 Brigade. General Mladic talked to them briefly because they were
3 representatives of the command structures in place at the time.
4 Should I continue?
5 Q. Let me interrupt you for a moment to put a question, because this
6 is how we do things here in this system of questioning.
7 In what direction did the conversation develop further between
8 General Mladic and the people you mentioned?
9 A. General Mladic said that he had issued an order to the civilian
10 authorities of Bratunac town to provide a convoy of vehicles to transport
11 all the population which at the time was in the base and those who later
12 on came to an open area nearby, in order to have them evacuated from the
14 Q. Did General Mladic discuss at all any tasks that UNPROFOR members
15 were to have in that process?
16 A. I don't remember that.
17 Q. To the best of your recollection, how long did General Mladic
18 stay there?
19 A. Starting from that conversation with the officers at that
20 location, General Mladic then left to join the group of people that had
21 assembled there. It is there that he gave that speech recorded by all
22 Serbian media which went global, where he said that the people would be
23 evacuated and transported to an area controlled by the ABiH side. To the
24 best of my recollection, I think he spent an hour or an hour and a half
1 Q. The location where General Mladic talked to the people mentioned,
2 how far is it from the location where he addressed the civilians -- the
3 civilian population assembled there? What is the distance between the
5 A. Several hundred metres.
6 Q. Were you close to General Mladic when he addressed the people in
8 A. Yes, I was behind him as far as I remember. Dusko Jevic was
9 there and I stood next to him.
10 Q. Could you personally hear General Mladic address them?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. How did the population take his words, and what kind of
13 connection was established between him and the people?
14 A. The people approved of his words.
15 Q. Did the people want to leave? In your opinion and in terms of
16 what you can see, because that is what you are testifying to, did those
17 people want to leave?
18 A. Yes.
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps this is a
20 good moment. I would again like to go back to P01147, which is the same
21 footage but I'm repeating it for the transcript. It is V000-9266. And I
22 would like us to see a part from 23:09 to 25:25.
23 I'd like to point out again that in the B/C/S version it is the
24 51st page of the transcript, lines 6 through 30. In English in e-court,
25 it is page 55, lines 4 through 28. Let us look at that piece of the
1 footage starting at 23:09 and ending at 25:25.
2 [Video-clip played]
3 "Roger. I will inform my commander.
4 "He says that all of the people will get on buses, all these
5 things they are doing by" -- [indiscernible].
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please go back to
7 23:40. 23:40.
8 Q. This is what I wanted to ask you now, Mr. Gajic. First of all,
9 is this the footage that you mentioned a moment ago when you were
10 answering my previous question?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. We see someone here who is interpreting General Mladic's words.
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps if we could just go back
14 a bit, 3 or 4 seconds. If we could rewind, please. Focus now.
15 [Video-clip played]
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. So to the left of General Mladic there is someone who seems to be
18 interpreting. That's what it seems like to me. Were you the person
19 interpreting for General Mladic or was there someone next to
20 General Mladic who was interpreting for him?
21 A. General Mladic had an official interpreter. It's this young man
22 there. I did not interpret at all for General Mladic, as far as I can
24 Q. Thank you.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, before we continue, Madam Registrar
1 has drawn my attention to the fact that P1147 is not, as we find it in
2 the transcript, V000-9266, but rather V000-9265.
3 Please proceed.
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Probably the
5 Registrar is right on that.
6 Q. Mr. Gajic, during this address General Mladic says that: We have
7 provided food, water, and medicine. And during this first day we are
8 going to evacuate women, children, the elderly, and all others who wish
9 to leave the area voluntarily. No force.
10 During the course of that day, did you see whether food and water
11 were brought in for this population in Potocari?
12 A. As far as I can remember, yes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan.
14 MS. HASAN: Apologies for the interruption. Just so that we
15 don't stray too far from -- from the reference, the video that was played
16 is from, as my friend cited, V000-9266. The trial video is a compilation
17 of four different CDs or four different videos. Chapter 1, let's say, is
18 V000-9265, but this is the second -- this is the second video which is
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Hasan. We'll sort that out.
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, the portion about the food, water,
23 and medication -- I'm trying to find it again. Yes, could we look at
24 that. You said.
25 "... during his address General Mladic says that: We have
1 provided food, water, and medicine."
2 Could we have a look at that again? My recollection --
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
4 Could we then take a look at 24, from there onwards, from 24:10.
5 I think we are going to come across it then, because I was reading out of
6 the transcript and it would be a good thing to see this again.
7 [Video-clip played]
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could you please stop there.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You are aware that you did not exactly quote
10 what Mr. Mladic -- at least if we read that well. Organising something
11 is not the same as providing something. Unless there is any translation
13 Please proceed.
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, for the record I
15 was wish to say that I literally quoted the word:
16 "We have secured transportation for them, we have secured --
17 provided water, food, medicine."
18 Those were the words that I quoted exactly. No other intent on
19 my part. If the English version reflects something different, then ...
20 JUDGE ORIE: We now have a third version. In the subtitles we
21 find "organised," now you say "secured," and what you read was
23 Please proceed.
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I shall repeat that all three
25 times I used the same word, and I shall proceed.
1 JUDGE ORIE: We'll check that later on but there is a slight
3 Please proceed meanwhile.
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. My last question had to do with that, namely, whether this food
6 and water were provided, and you said yes. And now I wish to ask you did
7 you see who it was that provided that and whether this was distributed to
8 the people?
9 A. As far as I can remember, yes. This aid arrived from Bratunac
10 and I think the members of the Dutch Battalion were also distributing
11 food as far as I can remember. I don't know whether they had these dry
12 rations or something like that. And then from Bratunac this aid arrived.
13 I think that bread was brought in and I think that water was distributed
15 Q. During this hour, hour and a half, that General Mladic was in
16 Potocari, did you personally notice whether General Mladic talked to any
17 one of the representatives of UNPROFOR or the UN there on the spot?
18 A. I do not recall.
19 Q. On that first day, did you see at any point in time that buses
20 had arrived and that the transfer of the civilian population had started
21 towards the destination that they had asked for?
22 A. As far as I know, the transfer of the population started on the
23 next day, on the 13th of July.
24 Q. On that first day, did you have an opportunity to see whether
25 there was any kind of separation of the military-aged population, men,
1 from women, children, and the segments of the populations that are not
3 A. I don't know. That did not happen in the zone where I was, as
4 far as I can remember.
5 Q. When you say it didn't happen, are you speaking about all the
6 days while you were there or are you just talking about the first day
7 when you were there?
8 A. I'm talking about the 12th of July, specifically the first day.
9 As far as I know, the separation started the next day.
10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please
11 be asked to slightly move away from the microphone. Thank you.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. On that first day, if that is the 12th of July as you said, did
14 you have any other specific tasks related to the stay in Potocari?
15 A. I was there with Mr. Jevic and Mr. Djuric, and I helped them
16 communicate with the members of the Dutch Battalion. There was this
17 specific task. We can see how many people with were there. We can see
18 it in the footage.
19 When the aid arrived, then all of these people had to receive
20 this aid. And then the Dutch soldiers asked me to climb up onto an APC
21 and to pacify the masses, because they did not speak the Serbo-Croat
22 language. And they told me to climb up onto the APC and to tell these
23 masses of people to calm down, that the food would be distributed. That
24 was a specific task, for instance. That is to say, I was mostly with
25 Mr. Jevic and Mr. Djuric, who was company commander in that unit.
1 Q. In this footage, you had the opportunity to see that near
2 General Mladic and the people that he is addressing is a member of the UN
3 with a blue helmet. I wish to ask you whether you, on that first day,
4 interpreted any kind of communication between General Mladic and this
5 member of the UN wearing that blue helmet?
6 A. As far as I can remember, no. Of course, I cannot assert
7 anything explicitly. But as far as I can remember, no, I did not
8 interpret anything.
9 Q. Thank you. How long did you stay in Potocari on that first day?
10 A. Until the evening hours. I think that the unit was withdrawn,
11 say, about 2000 hours in the evening.
12 Q. Where did you go?
13 A. We returned to the base in the village of Bjelovac by the Drina
15 Q. After General Mladic was in Potocari on the 12th of July and then
16 until 2000 hours when you left Potocari, did General Mladic reappear in
17 Potocari at any point in time?
18 A. Not as far as I know. As I said, he was there for about an hour,
19 an hour and a half.
20 Q. Did you notice the direction in which he left?
21 A. As far as I can remember, I think he went in the direction of the
22 town of Srebrenica, but I'm not sure.
23 Q. That night between the 12th and 13th of July, where were you
24 personally, physically?
25 A. The police base in the village of Bjelovac by the Drina river.
1 It was an improvised base. It wasn't really a military or police base.
2 It was improvised. It was an elementary school and beds were brought in,
3 and that's how it was turned into a base. Nothing more than that.
4 Q. On the first day, did you notice any kind of combat around
5 Potocari, the hills surrounding the area? Is there anything
6 characteristic that you remember that would be noteworthy now? That is
7 to say, above these locations, above the road where you were?
8 A. Before we entered, before this breakthrough, on the right-hand
9 side -- to the right of this yellow bridge where we were waiting, there
10 was an oldest Zis cannon, 76 millimetres, from the world war, basically.
11 And just before we set out, he fired two or three projectiles in the
12 opposite direction towards the houses, hills, that were perhaps 500 or
13 600 metres away. We don't know what -- I don't know what they wanted by
14 doing that. And after that when we entered, I saw on the left-hand side
15 there was some houses, two or three houses, I don't know, that were in
16 flames in the hills, on the left-hand side.
17 As for these moments that you showed now, this wasn't happening.
18 So combat took place only in that period before.
19 Q. In terms of time, can you tell us approximately when did that
20 take place before General Mladic arrived in Potocari?
21 A. A few hours before he arrived.
22 Q. During this first day, while you were there on that day in
23 Potocari until 2000 hours, did you notice any kind of mistreatment or
24 beating of the civilian population?
25 A. Not where I was.
1 Q. I'm going to end before the break. This night, did you spend it
2 in Bjelovac? Were you sleeping, or did you have any other specific
4 A. The night between the 12th and 13th, we did not have any tasks.
5 We spent it at that base in Bjelovac.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think that this
8 would be the time for the break, and we are going to move on to the next
9 day after the break.
10 JUDGE ORIE: We'll take a break of 20 minutes. You may follow
11 the usher.
12 [The witness stands down]
13 JUDGE ORIE: We will resume at 10 minutes to 11.00.
14 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
15 --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.
16 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that the issues about the number
17 have been resolved and that, Mr. Stojanovic, you were right in the number
18 you gave; that is, V000-9266.
19 [The witness takes the stand]
20 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sorry, Mr. Stojanovic, you are going to proceed
22 to the next day. I have one question with respect to page 9 of today's
24 I would kindly ask you for one clarification, Witness. When you
25 said before you went to the scene what we have seen on the video, you
2 "At that moment I think that Mr. Jevic told me to move right and
3 walk up the observation post. So I went up and I encountered two
4 soldiers of the Dutch Battalion there, so I was just told to control that
5 particular point."
6 I would kindly ask you to explain what do you mean by "control
7 that point"? What kind of control are you obliged to do?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said at the beginning of my
9 testimony, it was quite a specific situation. The soldiers of DutchBat
10 were not standard prisoners but they could also not freely do whatever
11 they wanted; hence, the specific situation. Perhaps under the term
12 "control" we could understand me being there so as to make it clear to
13 them that, in a way, the position was taken up by the Serb forces. It
14 was a very peculiar situation that cannot be described in standard terms.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is not a specific explanation what it means
16 to control these people, these Dutch soldiers. Were they free to move
17 around, to leave that particular location?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They could leave the location, but
19 I was told to sort of -- well, since the observation tower was a few
20 metres from the ground, one could observe from there. Perhaps that is
21 why Mr. Jevic sent me up, to go and observe the situation. I can't
22 really say specifically what he had in mind. As far as I remember, the
23 Dutch soldiers moved about freely.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: What -- if they were allowed to move freely, what
25 kind of control were you given? What does it mean, "to control"?
1 "Control" is something else than "observe."
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said at the beginning, the
3 situation was quite specific, which is difficult to explain. They
4 remained because their equipment was still there. They didn't want to
5 leave. And on the other hand, we were ordered to be there. So it was
6 quite peculiar.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: I've one follow-up question. You said they could
9 also not freely do whatever they wanted. What were they not allowed to
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I recall, they could move
12 about freely but they couldn't go just wherever they wanted and do
13 whatever they wanted to.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Could they take their vehicles and just move away?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was a problem. I personally
16 had a problem while interpreting with commandeering a vehicle. There was
17 a problem of that sort on the 13th when the column had left. Mr. Jevic
18 summoned me to interpret his words, that they needed to deliver a vehicle
19 that had to be given over to the VRS. It was a very uncomfortable
20 situation for me. I was supposed to explain to members of the
21 Dutch Battalion to leave the vehicle that had been issued to them. They
22 told me they couldn't vacate the vehicle. And then Mr. Jevic told me to
23 tell them that they have to get out, and I interpreted it as such. Then
24 they said again that they can't leave the vehicle and that they will not.
25 Then Mr. Jevic said that unless they left, he would have to use force and
2 It was a very frustrating situation for me. When they realised
3 that the situation was very serious, they did get out of this white UN
4 jeep. That is why I said that the situation was very specific, peculiar.
5 In a way, they were free and yet they were not.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So they could take a walk but they couldn't
7 take their vehicles, they could not move their equipment.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
10 Please proceed.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. For example, their personal
12 weapons had not been taken away, but they were not allowed to use it
13 either. So all of it was half-way, and it's very difficult to answer the
14 Judge's question to describe the situation clearly. It was such that
15 they were neither free nor prisoner.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: I also have a follow-up, sorry.
18 Sir, when you mentioned controlling the point much earlier, you
19 are talking about the 12th. Now, this incident that you are explaining
20 as to why they couldn't move their vehicle you say was on the 13th. It's
21 not quite clear what had happened on the 12th for you to take control of
22 the point that you said you took control of. Are you able to explain
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I explained about the 13th, it
25 had to do with the situation I was in, to give you an illustration. That
1 is why I referred to this situation on the 13th.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: I understand that. What I'm saying is on the 12th
3 where there was no situation of a vehicle, what was it that you were
4 taking control of?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The territory that had originally
6 been controlled by the units of the ABiH, the Muslim units.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Again, it's not entirely clear to me.
9 If the same would have happened on the 12th - that is, that they
10 wanted to move and take their vehicles, perhaps take their equipment - on
11 the 12th, they would not have been allowed to do so either?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I suppose so.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
14 Please proceed.
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will follow-up on Judge Orie's
16 last question.
17 Q. Were there any such situations that they wanted to leave and
18 somebody restricted their movement on the 12th of July?
19 A. No, not that I know of.
20 Q. Let me then conclude the topic by asking you this: Were you
21 personally ordered that if they decided to leave with a vehicle that you
22 were supposed to stop them?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Thank you. Now I'll move on to the next day, the 13th of July.
25 Please tell the Court what was your specific task on that day.
1 A. My specific task on the 13th of July was to evacuate the
2 population present from the area with the assistance of vehicles such as
3 buses and trucks that were supposed to have been provided by the civilian
4 authorities of Bratunac.
5 Q. To the best of your recollection, when did you arrive in
7 A. We arrived in the morning, but not too early in the day as far as
8 I remember.
9 Q. Had the vehicles already arrived or did you arrive before them?
10 The vehicles to evacuate the people.
11 A. I don't remember exactly --
12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness kindly
13 repeat the end of his answer. It was unclear.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat the last part of your
15 answer. You said you didn't remember exactly and what did you then say?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think we arrived before the
17 vehicles, although I am not 100 per cent certain.
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 Q. In the location where you were, was there any pressure on the
20 people to leave or was it their will to board the buses to take them to a
21 different destination?
22 A. The people wanted to leave the territory voluntarily because it
23 was an area affected by war. And as far as I know, they left the area of
24 their own will.
25 Q. On that second day in Potocari, were there any UNPROFOR or UN
1 members present?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. On the 13th, did you at any point see General Mladic in Potocari?
4 A. Yes, he passed through. I saw him but did not stop, unlike on
5 the 12th. In any case, he was around.
6 Q. You said he did not stop but just went through. Can you remember
7 in which direction and where was he going?
8 A. As far as I remember, I think he was en route from Srebrenica to
9 Bratunac. As far as I remember.
10 Q. On that second day, i.e., the 13th of July, was any food and
11 water provided for the population in Potocari?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Were you able to observe who organised the distribution of the
14 water and food?
15 A. The civilian authorities of Bratunac sent bread and water. I
16 personally distributed food on that day, the 13th.
17 Q. On that second day, the 13th, did you see if there was any
18 separation of military-age or able-bodied men from the rest of the
19 population in Potocari?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Can you explain to us how it developed, this separation process?
22 A. At the moment when a column was formed comprised of trucks and
23 buses, people started boarding the vehicles at two locations. One
24 location was the factory and the other on the road where there were far
25 more people than at the factory. It included the meadows nearby, near
1 the road. At those two locations, the people started boarding the
3 At the moment when people approached, so, say, a family, a
4 husband and wife, on entering a bus or a truck they were then separated.
5 All adult males were separated from women at that point in time.
6 Q. Where were the men taken then?
7 A. There was a house called white house. The men who had been
8 separated were then taken to the house, as far as I know.
9 Q. Could you recognise any of the people in charge of the separation
11 A. No. The people who participated on the 12th were both members of
12 police and military formations combined, but I didn't know most of those
13 involved in it.
14 Q. Did you ever have occasion to hear why those able-bodied men were
15 being separated?
16 A. There was some rumour. Once it was all done, I heard from some
17 members of the Bratunac, the soldiers, that they were supposed to be
18 taken for an exchange. That's what I heard. But at the moment as they
19 were being separated, I didn't know what it was about. It was also a
20 surprise to me because General Mladic had said the previous day that all
21 would be evacuated from the location.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Could I seek one point of clarification.
23 You were asked what people were in charge of the separation
24 process. And then you said:
25 "The people who participated on the 12th were both members of the
1 police and military formations combined ..."
2 And that you didn't know most of those involved in it. Now, was
3 that any different on the 13th when the separation took place? Was it
4 also police and army or was it anything else?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The same people who were there on
6 the 12th were there on the 13th -- well, they were similar. I wasn't
7 familiar with the military structures then, but they took part in it.
8 There were also some people from the police unit I belonged to, but I
9 didn't know them personally.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. For the record, I would just like to ask you something to
13 clarify. When you discuss those people, could you observe if those
14 people separated anyone on the 12th?
15 A. Not on the 12th. As far as I know, at the place where I was,
16 there was no separation. The separation process started on the 13th when
17 the column was formed, and I could see that with my own eyes.
18 Q. Thank you. At the place where the process was developing on the
19 13th, did you at any point see General Mladic?
20 A. No.
21 Q. On the 13th, if you'll recall, did you have to interpret any kind
22 of communication between UNPROFOR members and the police structures you
23 belonged to?
24 A. Yes, from time to time, but much less. Because by that time the
25 official interpreters had arrived and there was no need for me.
1 Q. Can you recall any such conversations and who took part? Were
2 there any conversations with interpretation that you were present at?
3 A. What I remember is once the separation process had been completed
4 and the people were taken to the so-called white house, it was then that
5 the members of DutchBat protested. They said that the area was
6 overcrowded, that there were too many people there, and that the
7 conditions were poor. That is what I remember. I don't remember who was
8 there precisely because I didn't know the Dutch soldiers. I didn't know
9 whether they were officers, soldiers, or whatnot. In any case, I do
10 remember that they expressed their dissatisfaction with the status of
11 those people.
12 Q. Can you remember who they expressed that dissatisfaction to?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Let me reformulate, then. Did they express their dissatisfaction
15 to the army or the police officers -- the police COs?
16 A. To the police officers.
17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I wanted to do
18 something later, but for practical purposes I may well do it now. Could
19 we again go back to P01147. For the transcript, it is footage V000-9267.
20 I would like to view the footage from 07:57 to 09:05. 07:57 to 09:05.
21 [Video-clip played]
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please stop right now
23 for a second.
24 Q. Mr. Gajic --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, we see subtitles, we hear no text.
1 So it's unclear who says what is found in the subtitles. Is there any
2 way that we could also -- or is it intentionally that you didn't want to
3 have sound included in what we see?
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, I would like us to hear the
5 soundtrack as well, and I would kindly ask that we be assisted here in
6 the courtroom so that we can hear the sound.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Could we then restart the footage you've shown us
8 but now with sound.
9 [Video-clip played]
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Microphone not activated]
11 [Video-clip played]
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we pause for a second.
13 Could we just go back a bit, 3 seconds back. Thank you for your
15 Q. Mr. Gajic, in this video footage, 80:8:10 - I'm saying this for
16 the record - do you recognise any of the people over there?
17 A. No.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Stojanovic, it's 80:10, not 80:8:10.
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think it is 08:10. 08:10.
20 JUDGE ORIE: And that's what we are looking at now.
21 Please proceed.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Do you see yourself in this still?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Could you please tell the Court, as you describe it, where it is
1 that you see yourself in this still?
2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We did not understand what
3 the witness said.
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please continue.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness please repeat his answer which was
8 not interpreted.
9 Where do you see yourself in this still, Witness?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the right. The very right.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please go on until
14 [Video-clip played]
15 "I am talking about overcrowding in that place. Where all the
16 men are being taken, it's too crowded. They are sitting on each other.
17 That's why I want to speak."
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 Q. Mr. Gajic, is that the conversation? Has this video footage
20 reminded you of the conversation that you spoke of a moment ago and the
21 objections in relation to the situation?
22 A. Yes. In addition to this, I think that the members of the Dutch
23 Battalion said that too. I don't remember who the officers were who
24 objected to the status. Believe me, I don't remember this footage at
25 all, so ...
1 Q. All right. Did you interpret anything on that day, any
2 communication between Mr. Djuric, Mendeljev, and somebody else, some
3 representative of UNPROFOR?
4 A. I cannot recall.
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask one clarifying question.
7 When this dissatisfaction was expressed, did you receive it or
8 were you interpreting it?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I think that I interpreted
10 it. The basic thing that I do not recall is who it was that was carrying
11 out this conversation.
12 JUDGE ORIE: So you don't know to whom you interpreted your
13 words --
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.
15 JUDGE ORIE: -- the words spoken in English.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And members of the United Nations
17 and the members of the Dutch Battalion, both expressed their
18 dissatisfaction over the status of the people who were at the white
20 JUDGE ORIE: Now, at that point in time was there exclusively
21 presence of the police unit you were in, or were there soldiers around as
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was combined, military and
24 police structures.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Which means that the military would have heard those
1 words as well?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I assume that.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
4 Please proceed.
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. I'm just going to put an additional question to you. In view of
7 your own capacity, would you interpret any words like this to any members
8 of the military, or would you interpret this to your own superiors?
9 A. I had to do with the police officials, so as far as I know I was
10 not interpreting this to the military.
11 Q. Thank you. And now in view of your last answer that had to do
12 with the conversation between Djuric and members of UNPROFOR, I would
13 like to use P01147 again.
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And yet again this is from the
15 video, V000-9267.
16 So let us take a look at 69, line 30, B/C/S transcript, to
17 page 70, line 5. And in the English version, it is transcript page 75,
18 lines 21 through 26 in e-court. And could we please take a look at 05:41
19 to 06:10.
20 [Video-clip played]
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please stop there for a
22 moment? Thank you.
23 For the record, can I just say that we stopped at 06:07.
24 Q. And I'd like to ask you, Mr. Gajic, can you recognise anyone in
25 this video footage?
1 A. The man whose back is turned to us is Mendeljev Djuric, the
2 company commander in my unit. I am in the middle, and to the right is a
3 Dutch soldier. I don't know whether he is a soldier or an officer.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we play the rest up until
6 06:10. It's just a few more seconds.
7 [Video-clip played]
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. You have this video footage in front of you. Djuric says:
10 "Let us tell them to go and get them from up there. Miki! To go
11 around and see if anybody else -- well, it's their job to collect them
12 and get them to the buses and wait."
13 This video footage jog your memory that these were the words of
14 Mr. Djuric that you would have interpreted?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. When Mr. Djuric says that you should interpret this to members of
17 UNPROFOR, that they should go around and see if anybody else would go,
18 and that that is their job, what did Mr. Djuric mean by that?
19 A. He probably meant that members of the Dutch Battalion should go
20 above the road and check whether everybody had left, whether everybody
21 had boarded the buses. That is how I understand this conversation.
22 Q. At any point in time on that day, did you have the opportunity to
23 see that members of UNPROFOR took active part in this evacuation of the
25 A. I don't recall. Members of the Dutch Battalion took active part.
1 Well --
2 Q. So this active participation of the members of the Dutch
3 Battalion, how was it reflected in terms of the evacuation of the
5 A. Well, they helped in the organisation itself, because this was an
6 enormous number of people, so that these people could get on to the buses
7 and trucks as fast as possible. I think that you can see in this video
8 footage that they were giving food and water. And it was an enormous
9 number of people there and all of that had to be co-ordinated.
10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please
11 be asked to stay a bit away from the microphone. Thank you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: You're again invited to move a little bit away from
13 the microphone.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I put one question to clarify a matter. We
15 heard the name Miki in the video several times. Who is Miki?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's my nickname.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. While we still have the still before us, you are wearing, well, I
20 would say something that seems to be blue. It looks like the colour
21 blue. It's a flak jacket, isn't it, a blue flak jacket? So is that
22 true? And how come you have that?
23 A. That's a police flak jacket, and we were issued with that. I
24 think that when we arrived at the base in Bjelovac by the Drina river
25 that they gave us these flak jackets for protection. But it's just an
1 ordinary vest that is worn by the police underneath their shirts. It had
2 no special purpose. I mean, I know what a real flak jacket looks like
3 because I did my military service.
4 Q. Thank you. But my question is basically whether this is the kind
5 of vest that was worn by members of UNPROFOR or the Dutch Battalion?
6 A. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the Dutch Battalion.
7 Q. Very well. Thank you. And I would like to end by dealing with
8 one more topic.
9 On this second day, did you walk up to the white house at all?
10 A. No. I passed by it but I didn't enter it. I did pass by it.
11 This house is next to the road.
12 Q. In front of this house, did you see certain personal belongings
13 or something like that, or some equipment, in front of this white house?
14 A. Yes. This was a huge pile of things like that, and I assumed
15 that they had belonged to the people who were separated and brought into
16 that house. This was a huge pile of different things, bags, things.
17 Q. As you were passing by that road -- or rather, in front of the
18 white house, did you see any passports, as personal documents belonging
19 to a physical person, a citizen? Did you see anything like that on the
21 A. I did not notice anything like that. I noticed this huge pile of
22 bags, these personal belongings that these people had probably packed
23 when they were setting out for this evacuation. So these were their
24 personal belongings, probably. That's what I noticed. There was this
25 huge pile in front of the house.
1 Q. Thank you. At any point in time on that day, the 13th of July,
2 do you remember that there was any communication between these two men
3 that you see before you now, Mr. Djuric and this gentleman with the blue
4 cap, a member of UNPROFOR? Do you remember that Mr. Djuric says -- or
5 rather, that the member of the DutchBat says to Mr. Djuric something
6 about passports or asks him something about passports on this road, and
7 that Mr. Djuric gave him some answer in relation to these passports?
8 A. I don't remember that.
9 Q. Thank you. And I'm going to finish by asking: To the best of
10 your recollection, how long did you stay in Potocari there?
11 A. I think until 1800 hours.
12 Q. Was the evacuation over by then?
13 A. It was over before that.
14 Q. I'm going to slow down. To the best of your recollection, when
15 did this evacuation end?
16 A. Between 1500 hours and 1600 hours.
17 Q. In that period in the afternoon in Potocari, did you perhaps see
18 General Mladic at any point in time?
19 A. The general was there on the 13th, but I don't remember really
21 Q. Are you talking about when he passed by?
22 A. Yes, when he passed by. But I really don't remember when it was
23 that he passed by because I just saw him. I mean, there wasn't any kind
24 of communication or anything, so, I mean, really I ...
25 Q. To the best of your recollection, all these people in Potocari,
1 did they leave the area of Potocari then? Were they driven in the
2 direction of Kladanj?
3 A. Women and children? Yes.
4 Q. And the separated men?
5 A. The separated men remained at the white house and around the
6 white house.
7 Q. Were you in Potocari? Actually when you left Potocari, did these
8 men stay in that building that you call the white house?
9 A. Yes, they stayed there.
10 Q. And can you tell the Trial Chamber where it was that you went
11 after completing this work in Potocari?
12 A. We returned to the base in Bjelovac again.
13 Q. Thank you. And I'm going to finish with the following question:
14 Generally speaking, how long did you stay --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, you have announced now three times
16 your last question. Will this be your real last question? Because I am
17 also looking at the clock and the time you --
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: So you'll now hear the last question of
20 Mr. Stojanovic.
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. So let us end on this note: To the best of your recollection,
23 how long did you stay in Bosnia-Herzegovina? When did you go back home?
24 A. It was on the 22nd of July that the dispatch arrived. We were at
25 Treskavica, at our positions there. On the 23rd of July, I was
1 transferred to Jahorina, to the command centre. And on the 24th of July,
2 in the morning, I returned the equipment that I had been issued with and
3 I returned to Valjevo. I returned home on the 24th.
4 Q. Indeed, this was the last question that I had. Thank you very
5 much, indeed.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just a question for clarification.
7 When you left on the 13th, was the pile of personal belongings
8 still there in front of the white house?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you have any knowledge of what eventually
11 happened to this pile of belongings?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
14 JUDGE ORIE: I've also one or two follow-up questions. One is:
15 You observed the evacuation and the separation, if I understood you well?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have any recollection of individuals being
18 asked about whether they wanted to go back home or whether they wanted to
19 board the buses or whether they wanted to stay there? Was any such
20 questions put to those who then finally boarded the buses?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. The people were separated by
23 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that's the separation, that is, if I
24 understand you well, women and children from the adult men.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct.
1 JUDGE ORIE: And -- so if men wanted to stay with their -- with
2 the women and the children, they were not allowed to do that?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I suppose so.
4 JUDGE ORIE: And those persons who were separated from women and
5 children, were they wearing civilian clothes or military attire or ...
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were mostly civilians.
7 JUDGE ORIE: You say "mostly." What did you observe apart from
8 civilian clothing --
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Almost all of them. Almost all.
10 Or perhaps someone might have had, say, camouflage pants but the rest was
11 civilian clothes. In any case, they were mostly civilians.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Now, you have not yet answered my question as to
13 whether individuals were asked, to the extent you can recollect, whether
14 they wanted to stay, or are -- you only talked about the separation. But
15 by -- I mean the women and children, were they asked: Would you rather
16 go home or stay here, or would you rather go on this bus? Were such
17 questions asked, if you know?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No questions were asked. When they
19 set out to board the buses and vehicles, they were separated suddenly.
20 Nobody asked them anything nor could they -- could there be any
22 JUDGE ORIE: They were just then -- they --
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the people were queueing,
24 approaching the vehicles. And, for example, there was a family of four -
25 the wife, a daughter, a father, and son - the wife and daughter would be
1 allowed to board a truck and someone would take the males away to the
2 side. So the men could not get through. And they had no time, nobody
3 asked them anything. Your question was about that. Perhaps they could
4 have answered something if they had been asked previously, but no one
5 asked them anything. They were forced to obey.
6 JUDGE ORIE: But then the women and children were separated from
7 the men. Were they asked: Under these circumstances would you rather
8 stay or would you go back home? Or was there any questions asked to
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Now I have another question for you.
14 Have you any knowledge about people, officials, who have compiled
15 lists of names?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. There is some buzz
17 coming from a piece of equipment. Could you please speak up?
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I will repeat. Do you have any recollection if
19 anybody compiled lists of names of these men sent -- separated and then
20 accommodated in the white house?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have no recollection. They were
22 not separated selectively. All adult males were separated from the
23 families and the women. As far as I know, there was no screening, no
24 selection. As far as I could see.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And you have no knowledge about any lists
1 compiled of the names? Thank you.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Is the Prosecution ready to start its
4 cross-examination? If you want to cross-examine the witness.
5 MS. HASAN: Yes, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Gajic, you'll now be cross-examined by
7 Ms. Hasan. You'll find Ms. Hasan to your right. Ms. Hasan is counsel
8 for the Prosecution.
9 Cross-examination by Ms. Hasan:
10 Q. Good morning, Mr. Gajic.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
12 A. [In English] Good morning. [Interpretation] Good morning.
13 Q. Just some points of clarification about the unit that you were
14 in. Now, you were a member of the 1st Company of the Jahorina training
15 centre; is that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And you were part of the 2nd Platoon of that company?
18 A. No, the 1st.
19 Q. Who was your platoon commander?
20 A. Goran Markovic.
21 Q. And as far as you recall, Mendeljev Djuric was the company
22 commander; is that right?
23 A. That is correct.
24 Q. Do you recall Mendeljev Djuric going by any nickname?
25 A. Mane.
1 Q. And do I have it right that Dusko Jevic was Mane's superior?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now, Mr. Gajic, when you spoke about the men who were taken
4 across the factory to the white house, across from the factory to the
5 white house, and you mention that you had seen a pile of belongings, now,
6 these men were made to drop those belongings outside the house as they
7 entered; isn't that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan.
10 Witness, did you see that personally, that they dropped their
11 belongings there, or is it your conclusion on the basis of that --
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is my conclusion. I didn't see
14 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please always be very clear in what you
15 saw and what you --
16 THE WITNESS: Okay.
17 JUDGE ORIE: -- concluded.
18 MS. HASAN:
19 Q. Okay, Mr. Gajic. Then who was it that took the personal
20 belongings from these men? Are you aware of that?
21 A. I suppose it was done by the soldiers and police officers who
22 were present.
23 Q. Okay. I just would like to take you on this point back to an
24 interview you gave in Belgrade. If you recall, that took place on the
25 5th of May, 2011, before the High Court in Belgrade. Do you remember
2 A. Yes, yes. I testified.
3 Q. And you told the truth?
4 A. Yes.
5 MS. HASAN: Could we take a look at 65 ter 33279, page 45 in the
6 English, page 40 in the B/C/S.
7 Q. Now, I suppose, sir, that you can follow in either the B/C/S or
8 the English, as you wish. In the English, it's about -- starts at the
9 third paragraph, and in the B/C/S it's approximately two-thirds of the
10 way down the page. And you were asked by the deputy prosecutor of the
11 Bosnia and Herzegovina office of the prosecutor:
12 "Apart from the personal belongings from the separated men which
13 you mentioned, did you see any other things being taken from them?"
14 And your answer was:
15 "No, personal belongings were taken, bags."
16 Then you're asked:
17 "Did you see personal documents being taken away from them?"
19 "Yes, I did. I mean, I learned later that they were taken away,
20 even money was taken away, so that."
22 "Do you know who did that? That is, members of which unit did
24 "Well it was done by, partly, for instance, by the army and
25 partly by the guys I was with."
2 "So members of the unit in which you were?"
5 Mr. Gajic, was that -- were those truthful answers that you gave?
6 Do you stand by that testimony?
7 A. The answers are truthful. I did not personally see possessions
8 being taken. It says here in the third paragraph from the bottom I think
9 I learned later that they were taken away, the things. I could see stuff
10 being taken away, but I didn't see when exactly. What I did see was an
11 enormous pile of items in front of the house.
12 Q. And in seeing that pile collect in front of the house, it was
13 your conclusion that these belongings were taken from the men by members
14 of the army and by members of your unit. Have I understood you
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Now, on the 13th of July, you depart and you return back to
18 Bjelovac. Were there guards securing the men who were still in the white
20 A. I suppose there was a military unit that was left behind to guard
21 the people at the white house, but I don't know any more than that. We
22 left the area at around 6.00 p.m. All the people that had been separated
23 were in the white house and just behind it. It is certain that someone
24 was left there to guard them. I don't know who but I think a military
25 formation was left behind. As far as I know, all members of my unit were
1 withdrawn from that area. As far as I know.
2 Q. Now, after that second day that you were in Potocari, you
3 returned to your base at the school. And am I correct that you are then
4 awoken at around midnight, thereabouts, and you receive a new assignment?
5 Do I have the chronology right?
6 A. Yes, you are right. The unit set out to a new task immediately
7 after midnight. Perhaps between 1.00 and 2.00 a.m.
8 Q. And you are taken -- if you can correct me if I'm wrong on this,
9 but you are taken by buses to a location very near to the Kravica
11 A. That is right. At that moment we didn't know where we were
12 going. Later when we arrived, it turned out to be a facility of the
13 agricultural co-operative in Kravica.
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour. This
15 part --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.
17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] This part of examination leaves
18 the topics covered by examination-in-chief. I don't think such questions
19 have been asked of the witness. I did not deal with that part of his
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, do I have to remind you what the
22 limits are for cross-examination? Could you tell me what is in the Rule
23 which says which are the boundaries for cross-examination? Is that
24 exclusively the subject matter touched upon in examination-in-chief or is
25 there more in the Rules?
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] The Rule does envisage this
2 possibility of going beyond. I am aware of that fact. However, these
3 questions have been very specific and that is why I wanted my objection
4 recorded in the transcript before the Prosecutor continues.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any issue about specificity in that Rule?
6 What -- could you tell me what questions can be asked in
7 cross-examination apart from what is touched upon in
8 examination-in-chief? There are two other categories.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, if you were to examine me,
10 Your Honour, I don't have the Rules before me, but I know that any
11 question that goes beyond examination-in-chief that could compromise the
12 testimony could be put in cross-examination. I have no doubt about that.
13 And that is not in dispute.
14 However, for these specific questions --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, let me read the Rule which you
16 should have done yourself before you raised this objection.
17 "Cross-examination shall be limited to the subject-matter of the
18 evidence-in-chief and matters affecting the credibility of the witness
19 and, where the witness is able to give evidence relevant for the case for
20 the cross-examining party, to the subject-matter of that case."
21 Your objection makes me believe that you may have ignored the
22 last portion of that Rule, and Ms. Hasan may proceed.
23 MS. HASAN: Your Honour, I note that it's time for the break.
24 JUDGE ORIE: It's time for the break. You're right, Ms. Hasan.
25 Witness, we'll take a break of 20 minutes. We'd like to see you
1 back at quarter past 12.00. You may now follow the usher.
2 [The witness stands down]
3 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at quarter past 12.00.
4 --- Recess taken at 11.54 a.m.
5 --- On resuming at 12.17 p.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: We'll wait for the witness to enter the courtroom.
7 [The witness takes the stand]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan, you may proceed.
9 MS. HASAN:
10 Q. You'll recall, Mr. Gajic, that we just left off talking about
11 your deployment on the night -- morning -- early morning hours of the
12 14th of July. Now, where was it in relation to the Kravica warehouse or
13 the Kravica farming co-operative that you were dropped off with the
14 buses, as far as you remember?
15 A. It was exactly in front of the warehouse in Kravica. That is
16 where we got off the bus. As we were leaving the bus, we were ordered to
17 go in the direction of Konjevic Polje as part of a column. As we were
18 getting off the bus, we could see soldiers holding some people at
19 gunpoint. Since it was dark, we couldn't see what was going on exactly,
20 but there were people in the warehouse itself who were being shot at by
21 the two soldiers we saw there. We continued moving towards
22 Konjevic Polje and then we stopped, and I stopped some 400 to 500 metres
23 away from the warehouse itself.
24 Q. The soldiers that you mentioned outside of the Kravica warehouse,
25 which unit, if you know, did they belong to?
1 A. At the moment as we were getting off the bus, I didn't know.
2 However, later, when we came to replace the soldiers who were on the
3 road, we learned that they belonged to the Sekovici Special Police
5 Q. And just briefly if you can tell us what it was that you were
6 tasked to do?
7 A. Our task was to secure the road from Bratunac to Konjevic Polje
8 at that moment.
9 Q. And did your task include the capture of Muslim men?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And did you capture any Muslim men?
12 A. Yes. I think two or three people surrendered on that part of the
13 road where I was. I didn't capture them. They surrendered themselves
14 because previously a vehicle had gone through calling to the people to
16 Q. And these two, I think you said, two --
17 A. Two or three. I don't remember exactly.
18 Q. Two or three men that were -- that surrendered and were captured,
19 what -- what did you do with them?
20 A. The task was that those who surrendered themselves be put on the
21 trucks moving along the Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road. Those who
22 surrendered were put on those trucks and taken to the warehouse at
24 Q. Do you recall the types of trucks that were carrying these
25 captured Muslim men?
1 A. They were military trucks, as far as I remember, that used to
2 belong to the SFRY Army. There was a larger truck, i.e., 150, that could
3 hold more people, and there were two 110s or number 7s that could hold
4 fewer. In any case, the three trucks were used to transport the people.
5 Q. These men that were transported to the Kravica warehouse, what
6 happened to them, if you know?
7 A. I know they were liquidated.
8 Q. And what do you mean when you say "they were liquidated"?
9 A. Killed.
10 Q. And in addition to these men that were sent to the Kravica
11 warehouse and killed there, did you receive any other information about
12 what had happened at the Kravica warehouse prior to your arrival there in
13 the early morning hours of the 14th? And as far -- as best as you can
14 recall, tell us what it is that you learned.
15 A. I don't remember specifically. There was an incident that we
16 learned about later on, but I do not know any specific details about the
17 incident. It involved members of the Sekovici Special Brigade and the
18 people who were held prisoner there. I don't know any other details.
19 There was some talk that an incident happened, but I don't know any
21 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan, could I just ask clarification on one
23 You said the two or three which surrendered were taken to the
24 Kravica warehouse and they were killed. Now, how do you know that?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At approximately 10.00 a.m. until
1 5.00 p.m. on the 14th of July, one could hear occasional bursts of fire
2 from the direction of the warehouse. At first we didn't know what was
3 going on, but later the rumour had it that the people were being killed
4 there in front of the co-operative.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So therefore it was your conclusion. What you
6 know is that they were taken there --
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: -- and you concluded --
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
10 JUDGE ORIE: -- on the basis of what you heard --
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: -- and on the basis of what rumours told you after
13 that, that they had been killed.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was my conclusion on that
16 JUDGE ORIE: I again may urge you. For us it's important to know
17 exactly what you've seen and what you tell us has happened which you have
18 not seen yourself. So part of it you have seen, you have heard some
19 things. "Heard," I mean fire. And then other is rumours. Could you try
20 to always be as precise as possible, especially in that respect.
21 Please proceed, Ms. Hasan.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: I also have one or two questions for
24 Sir, you mentioned a little earlier that two soldiers were
25 shooting people in the Kravica warehouse as you passed there. Do you
1 remember that part of your evidence?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Were you able to see more or less how many people
4 were there inside the warehouse who were being shot at?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not saying an exact number but an estimate.
7 You're not --
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. It was night-time, that is
9 why we couldn't see.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Then you talked about these trucks that
11 were carrying people to the Kravica later as you walked along. You've
12 mentioned the three that were -- the people who surrendered. Were they
13 the only three in those trucks or were there other people in the trucks
14 who were transported to Kravica at that point?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The people were brought in front of
16 the warehouse in this way: Those Bosniaks who surrendered were put on
17 trucks which went up and down the road from Kravica towards
18 Konjevic Polje. Those who surrendered were put in the trucks. And when
19 a truck was full, after it had done its round, it went back. And the
20 people who had surrendered would then be taken -- were then taken to the
21 agricultural co-operative in Kravica.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. You say the trucks were full. That was the
23 answer to my question. More or less how many people could each truck
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 110 cannot hold many people,
1 perhaps six or seven. Of course, some can also stand while others are
2 seated. As for the 150, together, standing and seated, there could be
3 around 25 or 30 people. The 150 is far greater than the other truck.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Were you able to note how many times each of these
5 trucks went up and down with the load to Kravica?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think between eight and ten
7 times. I don't know exactly. But this would just be an estimate of
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Between eight and ten times carrying either
10 25 or seven people. Thank you so much.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Hasan.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it wasn't always full. It
13 wasn't always full.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: I understand.
15 MS. HASAN: Could we take a look at 65 ter 33279, page 31 in the
16 English, and page 28 in the B/C/S.
17 Q. And, Mr. Gajic, this again is the examination that was conducted
18 in Belgrade on the 5th of May, 2011, before the High Court there. And
19 just towards the end in the English and about the middle of the page in
20 the B/C/S, you were asked about what had happened to the persons who were
21 transported to the Kravica warehouse who had surrendered, and then you
22 were asked, question:
23 "Did you hear only about them or some others as well?"
25 "And we also heard that those who had been there previously from
1 Sekovici, they had practically carried out a large number of these
4 "Who did you hear that from?"
6 "Well, from the guys who went down there."
8 "What does 'guys who went down there' mean?"
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Ms. Hasan, may I interrupt you.
10 MS. HASAN: Yes.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In the text we just had in front of us, now we've
12 moved to the next page, it is slightly different. Can we go back? It
14 "From the guys who were there," not "went down there." "Who were
16 MS. HASAN: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And then the judge said:
18 "What does 'the guys who were there' mean?"
19 MS. HASAN: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Q. Answer:
21 "Well, from the guys I was with in the platoon. We were
22 stationed some 400 to 500 metres above. I did not go down there. I was
23 not present. I did not watch the goings-on."
24 Now, what I've read so far, Mr. Gajic, do you stand by those
25 answers you gave?
1 A. I said here that I found out from the guys who were with me in
2 the platoon, that's what I meant.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan, we're now looking for the second time to
4 this transcript or report about an interview. I'm a bit confused, and
5 perhaps the parties could seek an agreement on that. It was presented as
6 an interview that was given in Belgrade. It was before the High Court in
7 Belgrade. And a little bit further down, it says that questions were
8 asked by the deputy prosecutor of the Bosnia and Herzegovina office of
9 the prosecutor.
10 Now, I can imagine a few situations. That is, that it was a
11 letters rogatory examination by one prosecutor in another jurisdiction,
12 but it's a bit unclear to me -- I don't know whether the parties could
13 seek an agreement on what is exactly the procedural context in which we
14 have to look at this interview.
15 MS. HASAN: I can discuss it with Mr. Stojanovic. It's clear
16 from -- which I didn't put on the screen, which was this was -- these
17 were proceedings pursuant to letters rogatory by the BiH war crimes
18 office and were conducted in Belgrade.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I saw Mr. Stojanovic nodding in the
20 affirmative, so the Chamber then takes it that this is the procedural
21 context in which the witness was at that time interviewed.
22 Please proceed.
23 MS. HASAN:
24 Q. Mr. Gajic, now when you learned about what had previously
25 happened at the Kravica warehouse, did you at that point in time hear any
1 story or account of a Serb soldier being killed and a policeman being
3 A. No, not at that moment. No.
4 Q. And --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Could I invite you again to move a little bit away
6 from the microphone.
7 Please proceed.
8 MS. HASAN:
9 Q. And just as a point of clarification, you had learned this not
10 the day of the 13th of July but the day that you were present there on
11 the 14th of July? That you had learned about the executions that --
12 A. Yes. It was the incident that had occurred. People talked about
13 it a lot. I didn't really put any questions. Before we came it was
14 talked about, that some incident had occurred.
15 Q. I'm going to move on now and ask you about the next task that you
16 had received. And after your deployment on the Bratunac-Konjevic Polje
17 road, am I correct that you receive an assignment to sweep the terrain?
18 A. That's right. You're right. The morning of the 15th. That's
19 when we set out to sweep the terrain.
20 Q. Now, I'll get back to when this sweep took place, but do you
21 recall the area in which your -- you and your unit performed this sweep?
22 A. We set out from this road where we were and we went uphill, that
23 is to say, along that part from Kravica towards Konjevic Polje, over
24 those hills between Kravica and Konjevic Polje. That's where the sweep
25 of the terrain took place.
1 MS. HASAN: Now, if we can look at 65 ter 05235, please. It will
2 momentarily come up in B/C/S as well. There it is.
3 Q. So we see here that it's a very urgent order from the special
4 police brigade. You see on the bottom there it's from the commander
5 Goran Saric. And it's addressed to, among others, the Zvornik CJB public
6 security centre, Ljubisa Borovcanin, and it says there Assistant Special
7 Police Brigade Commander Dusko Jevric.
8 Mr. Gajic, do you know of a Dusko Jevric who was the assistant
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Sorry, is it Dusko Jevric or Dusko Jevic?
12 A. Jevic, not Jevric. Jevic.
13 Q. All right. Let's look at item 1. And item 1 says:
14 "Urgently form a combat group of battalion strength in the
15 Kravica - Konjevic Polje sector, using the Doboj Special Police
16 Detachment, two/seminar/ companies from Jahorina, and two PJP/special
17 police units/ with the following task: During the course of today, 17
18 July 1995, conduct a search of the terrain in the Pobudje sector in order
19 to clear finally the right side of the Milici - Drinjaca road and then
20 concentrate forces to search Cerska.
21 "The commander of the Combat Group 2, comprising the units listed
22 in the previous item, is Assistant Special Police Battalion Commander
23 Dusko Jevric."
24 A. Jevic.
25 Q. It goes on at item 3:
1 "Perform the task on 17 July 1995 and prepare to search the
2 terrain on the left side of the road."
3 And very briefly, item 4:
4 "Form Combat Group 1 for the second part of the front."
5 And it goes on to say:
6 "Borovcanin shall appoint the commander and command and control
7 both Combat Groups."
8 Now, you were sent on -- to search the -- to sweep the terrain
9 and Dusko Jevic was your superior there; is that correct?
10 A. Yes, but as we were sweeping the terrain on the 15th of July,
11 Dusko Jevic was not there. What you showed just now is a completely
12 different event. It has nothing to do with what it was that I was
13 talking about.
14 Q. Okay. When you searched the terrain, were you performing this
15 tasks -- task together with members of the army?
16 A. Yes. It was a combined sweep, members of the police and members
17 of the army together.
18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please
19 be asked again to keep away from the microphone. Thank you.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps it might be a solution to have the
21 microphone slightly lower, perhaps, because -- if it would still be clear
22 enough. Yes.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the way it stands.
24 MS. HASAN:
25 Q. Now, Mr. Gajic, you mentioned that this sweep that involved two
1 companies from Jahorina was not the one you were referring to that you
2 say took place on the 15th of July. Have I understood you correctly?
3 A. Yes, that's right. There was one sweep of the terrain when we
4 went on the 15th in combination with the Bratunac Brigade, as far as I
5 can remember, and it was from the area of Kravica towards Konjevic Polje;
6 whereas what you showed, it says here the right bank -- actually, can you
7 return this? It says the right-hand area of the Milici-Drinjaca road.
8 Geographically or substantially this is totally unrelated. On the 17th,
9 18th, that's when the sweep of the terrain did take place, but I did not
10 participate in that.
11 So these are two different events. On the 15th of July there was
12 one sweep of terrain, and I think that on the 17th and the 18th there was
13 this other sweep, as far as I can remember.
14 So part of our police units had stayed on - had stayed on - in
15 that area there around Bratunac. And then, as far as I know, they went
16 to sweep this terrain. That is what you've shown us just now. But I did
17 not take part in the latter. I took part in the sweep of the terrain on
18 the 15th of July.
19 Q. You are aware, aren't you, that your platoon commander,
20 Goran Markovic, was convicted as well as Dusko Jevic, Mendeljev Djuric,
21 for having taken part in the sweep of the terrain that took place on the
22 17th and 18th of July?
23 A. Goran Markovic was set free, as far as I know. As far as I know.
24 He was not accused, as far as I know. And I did take part in these court
25 proceedings. And I don't know -- I don't know these details. Mr. Jevic,
1 Mr. Djuric, they were accused. I don't see that there was anything that
2 was challenged there, as far as I know. I mean ...
3 Q. Okay. You're not aware of Mr. Markovic's conviction. Where were
4 you then on the 17th of July if you weren't ...
5 A. Well, at Jahorina.
6 Q. And you were there for how many days?
7 A. I think it was two or three days. And then we were given a new
9 Q. Where did you go?
10 A. We went to the foot of Mount Treskavica. The name of the place
11 is Duga Poljana.
12 MS. HASAN: I don't have this on the screen, Your Honours, I
13 don't have the judgement uploaded. And if I may just read an excerpt
14 from that.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, any objections to introduce the text
16 of the judgement by --
17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. I have no
18 problem. And I believe this will be clarified once this judgement is
19 shown to the witness, if that is what this is about.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but I think what Ms. Hasan announced is that
21 she cannot show it to the witness at this very point in time.
22 Ms. Hasan, but at least could you be very clear as far as which
23 court, what date, first instance, appeal, whatever --
24 MS. HASAN: Your Honours --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic.
1 MS. HASAN: -- I'm going to withdraw actually -- withdraw my
2 questioning on that.
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we can agree on
4 that. I was defence counsel in that case and we can agree what the final
5 judgement was in relation to Goran Markovic, so we really shouldn't take
6 up more time with this.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 MS. HASAN: I agree, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan withdraws her question in relation to this
11 Then please proceed with your next subject matter.
12 MS. HASAN:
13 Q. Mr. Gajic, in the sweep that you conducted you encountered some
14 captured Muslim men; is that correct?
15 A. When we were returning along that road - that is to say, we've
16 completed the sweep of the terrain and we arrived in Konjevic Polje - we
17 went down there, and then we boarded buses and we went back along this
18 road from Konjevic Polje towards Bratunac. I don't know exactly how many
19 kilometres, because I'm not familiar with the terrain at all. I've never
20 been there since and I have never been there before that, that part of
21 Bosnia-Herzegovina. We came across this group of captives, Muslim
22 civilians who were captives. I think it was a military formation that
23 had taken them prisoner, and they were keeping them there on the
24 right-hand side, to the right of the road.
25 Q. Sir, you're recorded as saying that:
1 "I think it was a military formation that had taken them
2 prisoner ..."
3 Let's just break that down.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You thought -- what you're saying is you saw members of the
6 Muslim army who were -- no.
7 A. No, it was civilians. Civilians. People were not in uniform.
8 Q. Okay. Those were the -- the men who were captured; am I right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. The civilians.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And who was it who was securing these men, this group of people?
13 A. Members of some military unit. I'm not aware of which unit it
14 was. We just stopped there briefly at that location and then we went on
15 towards the base in Bratunac.
16 Q. And on what side of the road as you're travelling from
17 Konjevic Polje to Bratunac did you see these prisoners?
18 A. I've already said. On the right-hand side.
19 Q. Did you ever receive any information about what happened to those
21 A. No.
22 MS. HASAN: I've nothing further, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Hasan.
24 Any further questions, Mr. Stojanovic?
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] A few questions, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed.
2 Re-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
3 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Gajic, if I understood you correctly, during
4 the night of the 14th of July you were deployed 4- or 500 metres away
5 from the Kravica co-operative?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Between your positions and the agricultural co-operative of
8 Kravica, on that day, the 14th, did you notice any members of the Army of
9 Republika Srpska there?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Mr. Djuric --
12 A. Gajic.
13 Q. Sorry. On that day, did you notice Mr. Mendeljev Djuric nearby
14 anywhere on that day?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Would you please tell us, when you started sweeping the terrain
17 on the 15th of July, could you please describe for the Court what it was
18 that you found along this route where you were moving? What did you
19 observe, what did you notice?
20 A. When we set out to sweep the terrain, as soon as we started going
21 up there was this forest there and we noticed a few bodies in very bad
22 shape. You couldn't even tell, because they were in such bad shape,
23 whether they were civilians or military. As we went further on, we came
24 across the dead bodies of members of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. And
25 then at one point when we reached -- I don't know what to call it, a
1 height, we noticed an enormous trace, say, 15 metres wide, where a Muslim
2 column had passed as they were moving, I assume, towards the territory
3 held by the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina. These traces could be seen
4 for kilometres, and probably many people went that way, I cannot say how
5 many. But it was so wide and it was so clear, so it certainly must have
6 been several kilometres. As you look at it, you could see it for
7 kilometres. We came across equipment that had been thrown -- thrown
8 away, also weapons that had been thrown away. We found all of that
9 en route.
10 Q. Did you notice any people who had committed suicide?
11 A. At one location there were a few bodies hanging. Now, I have to
12 say very clearly to the Judge that it is my conclusion that these people
13 had committed suicide, but that I don't know. But we did see people
14 hanging in the woods.
15 Q. How long did this sweep of the terrain last?
16 A. The sweep of the terrain lasted during that morning of the
17 15th of July and ended about 3.00 in the afternoon when we went down to
18 Konjevic Polje, and from there we went back to the base.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask one clarification.
20 You said that you also found weapons that had been thrown away.
21 Now, apart from whether you were there when they were thrown away, but
22 how many weapons, approximately, and what kind of weapons?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Different types of weapons. We
24 came across hand-held launchers, so-called bazookas. Then individual
25 weapons, that is to say, automatic rifles, pistols. As for the exact
1 number, I cannot say, but there were tens of pieces of weaponry like that
2 strewn about the meadows on both sides of the road.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed.
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. I'm just going to ask you to tell the Court the following. As
6 for this transfer along the Kravica-Konjevic Polje is concerned and then
7 your stay there and the task that you were given on the 14th and then the
8 task you were given on the 15th concerning the sweep of the terrain, did
9 you get this assignment - you - from police officials or from military
11 A. Police officials, I assume.
12 Q. You personally, your unit, did you ever get any concrete orders
13 from any military officers?
14 A. As far as I know, no.
15 Q. Mr. Gajic, thank you. On behalf of the Defence of
16 General Mladic, we have no further questions for you.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: I have quite a few questions.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 Questioned by the Court:
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sir, can I just take you back to the Kravica
21 warehouse. You remember you mentioned the two policemen who were
22 shooting people in the Kravica warehouse?
23 A. One was shooting and there was this other one who was standing
24 behind him protecting his back, but it was one of them that was doing the
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. That's an excellent detail.
2 Do you know what army they belonged to, those two soldiers?
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection. I do apologise.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: You object to a question by --
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] He said "policeman." I do
6 apologise. I do apologise. I believe that I either received the wrong
7 interpretation or it was misspoken. He said "policeman," whereas what I
8 heard was "soldiers" and ...
9 JUDGE ORIE: I think it was an inappropriate intervention because
10 the witness used both.
11 Please proceed.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Judge. I was trying to find the place
13 because I --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Soldiers, page 53, line 11:
15 "... we could see soldiers holding some people at gunpoint.
16 Since it was dark, we couldn't see what was going on exactly ..."
17 That's where the soldiers are mentioned, whereas later I think
18 there was another --
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, but I think earlier he talked about two
20 soldiers shooting --
21 A. Later we learned that they were ...
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Anyway.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you know, as I ask my question, what army they
25 belonged to, those two who -- one of whom was shooting inside the Kravica
1 or at the Kravica warehouse?
2 A. They were members of the special police brigade from Sekovici.
3 What I said was that as we were leaving our buses, we couldn't see well.
4 At that moment we didn't know what unit they belonged to. Later we found
5 out that the unit in question was a police unit from Sekovici. They were
6 members of the police force.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: And the Sekovici Special Brigade was a police
8 force. I leave the question now, but I'm going to look for the time --
9 the place where you talked about two soldiers. Thank you.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Any further questions, Ms. Hasan, after you have
11 concluded your consultation with Mr. McCloskey?
12 Ms. Hasan, I addressed you, but you may have missed it because
13 you took off your earphones. If you could just look at the transcript.
14 MS. HASAN: Yes, Your Honour. If I could just have one minute,
15 I'm just seeing if I have one more question -- one question.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, one minute for one question.
17 [Prosecution Counsel confer]
18 MS. HASAN: Nothing further, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Hasan. If you'd give us one minute
20 for perhaps one question as well.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sir, I found the piece of evidence. At page 53,
22 line 10, you said -- no, is it line 10?
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Right. Sir, on page 53, starting at line 12, you
1 "Since it was dark, we couldn't see what was going on exactly,
2 but there were two people in the warehouse itself" -- sorry, I'm sorry.
3 "... who were being shot at by the two soldiers we saw there."
4 Okay. Well, this is how you are recorded and I can see you are
5 shaking your head. But that's how --
6 A. Not correct. I said as follows: As we were leaving the bus,
7 which was stopped right next to the agricultural co-operative at a
8 distance of 7 to 8 metres, as we were leaving the bus I could see
9 silhouettes. One of them belonged to a soldier standing at the very
10 entrance of the warehouse, and we could see that he fired in a particular
11 direction every now and then. There was another soldier standing behind
12 him covering his back, so to say. That's what I said about the two
13 soldiers. They were actually policemen, but I didn't know at the time
14 who or what they were. Later on we learned that they were members of the
15 Sekovici Special Brigade. When we rotated, we took over from them.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. This is a completely new correction of your
17 testimony. It doesn't tally with what you are recorded as having said.
18 The point at which I'm talking about is the same point where you talked
19 about leaving the bus, and you said:
20 "We were ordered to go in the direction of Konjevic Polje as a
21 part of a column. As we were getting off the bus, we could see soldiers
22 holding some people at gunpoint. Since it was dark, we couldn't see what
23 was going on exactly, but there were people in the warehouse itself who
24 were being shot at by two -- by the two soldiers we saw there."
25 There is no mention of a silhouette and there is no mention of
1 police at this point of your testimony. You are talking about soldiers.
2 So it's a correction of your testimony. Thank you so much. I have no
3 further questions.
4 A. Yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Everything being clarified, we have no further
7 Mr. Gajic, I'd like to thank you very much at the conclusion of
8 your testimony for coming a long way to The Hague and for having answered
9 the many questions that were put to you, both by the parties and by this
10 Bench, and I wish you a safe return home again.
11 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: You may follow the usher.
13 [The witness withdrew]
14 JUDGE ORIE: We are close to the point where we would take a
15 break. Would you prefer to take the break now, Mr. Stojanovic, and then
16 start the evidence of the next witness, which is Mr. Poparic, if I am
17 well informed, after the --
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That is correct, Your Honour. I
19 would like to seize this opportunity to advise you that Mr. Poparic only
20 just arrived in The Hague today. In that regard, he could only appear as
21 of tomorrow. For the remainder of 40 minutes of work or so today, we
22 have no other witnesses.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Which then means that we would adjourn for the day.
24 Often, of course, we urge you to keep witnesses ready, but in
25 view of the special circumstances where you could, under normal
1 circumstance, expect Mr. Poparic to start his testimony later as he now
2 will do, there is no reason whatsoever to make similar comments as we've
3 made in the past.
4 We adjourn for the day, and we'll resume tomorrow, Tuesday, the
5 27th of October, 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, I.
6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.09 p.m.,
7 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 27th day
8 of October, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.