1 Tuesday, 17 November 2015
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
9 IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 Before I invite the Defence to call its next witness, I'd first
12 like to put on the record that on the 16th of November of this year, the
13 Chamber was informed by the Defence that the Defence withdraws the 92 ter
14 motion for witness Mile Dmicic and will instead call the witness viva
15 voce, and that's what's done today through videolink.
16 Could we start testing the videolink to see whether everything is
17 functioning well.
18 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Good morning, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning. We can hear you; we can see. Can you
20 hear us; can you see us?
21 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Yes, we can hear; and we can see
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Is the witness already in the videolink
24 room or not yet?
25 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] No, Your Honours. We will bring
1 the witness in.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And could you also inform us who else is in
3 the videolink room.
4 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, apart from myself
5 and the witness, there will be only the member of the ITSS, technical
6 staff of the ICTY.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for that information. Could you
8 escort the witness into the videolink room.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 [The witness entered court]
11 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Dmicic, I presume. Mr. Dmicic,
12 before you give evidence, the Rules require that you make a solemn
13 declaration, the text of which is now handed out to you.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
15 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
16 WITNESS: MILE DMICIC
17 [Witness answered through interpreter]
18 [Witness testified via videolink]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Dmicic. Please be seated.
20 Mr. Dmicic, you'll first be examined in-chief by Mr. Lukic.
21 You'll soon see him on your screen. Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.
22 Mr. Lukic, please proceed.
23 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
24 Examination by Mr. Lukic:
25 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Dmicic, good morning.
1 A. Good morning to you too.
2 Q. Would you please be so kind to state your name for the record.
3 A. Mile Dmicic.
4 Q. Would you give us your father's name?
5 A. Simo.
6 Q. Mr. Dmicic, when were you born?
7 A. On the 9th of October, 1948.
8 Q. Could you please tell us what your profession is.
9 A. I have a degree in law -- or, rather, I have a doctorate in law.
10 Q. So what is it that you do nowadays?
11 A. I'm a professor of constitutional law at the law school of
12 Banja Luka university.
13 Q. Before the war, the past seven or eight years, what did you do?
14 A. I was an advisor, I was chef de cabinet. I was acting
15 secretary-general and deputy secretary-general of the Presidency of the
16 Socialist Federal Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina in Sarajevo.
17 Q. Could you please give us the exact time period when you held
18 these positions.
19 A. I held these positions from 1984 until the spring of 1992, until
20 the tragic conflicts in the region started.
21 Q. Who did you co-operate with then, before the war, before the
22 conflict broke out? Give us some examples.
23 A. This involved several terms of office of the then-president and
24 Presidency of the Socialist Federal Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. So
25 the last term of office that was from December 1990 until April 1992,
1 that was a Presidency that had seven members. They were elected in a
2 free general election in October 1990. It was headed by the president of
3 the Presidency, Mr. Alija Izetbegovic.
4 Q. Have you read the "The Islamic Declaration" by Alija Izetbegovic?
5 A. As a person who was employed in the state organs of
6 Bosnia-Herzegovina over a longer period of time and as a person who has a
7 degree in law and, of course, as a participant in certain professional
8 endeavours that were not only something I had to do for my work but were
9 also a subject of my interest in terms of my line of work, well, yes, I
10 have read it.
11 Q. In Bosnia-Herzegovina, did people know of the existence of "The
12 Islamic Declaration" in 1990, 1991, 1992?
13 A. As for "The Islamic Declaration," as a project and programme and
14 ideological document, and the time involved followed the well-known
15 Sarajevo trial of 1983 onwards, that is, this well-known Sarajevo group
16 that is linked to "The Islamic Declaration" and, of course, as for the
17 substance and orientation and programme-based character of "The Islamic
18 Declaration" is concerned, every well-informed intellectual was aware of
19 its content - and how do I put this? - it would be located in the
20 mid-19th century onwards; that is to say, everything that constitutes a
21 synthesis of thought and activity appearing in "The Islamic Declaration"
22 as a synthetic and comprehensive complete text of a projection, of an
23 Islamic orientation.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could the witness answer the question now? Did
1 people know of its existence?
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Yes.
4 A. There should be a two-fold approach to the matter. Many of those
5 who had this so-called Islamic radical concept of the state and society
6 knew more about that. Those who were in the sphere of politics and
7 societal life that we call people of secular orientation, people who
8 belonged to the option of the then-ruling party, as well as those who
9 were in favour of an approach based on civil life and co-existence as
10 characterised by socialism as a social order, they knew about it to the
11 extent to which this constituted a general framework of knowledge.
12 Those who belonged to a collectivity of Islamic radicalism knew a
13 lot more and, of course, that was a document that we usually call in
14 everyday life and in professional life, a document of political,
15 ideological programme-based or some other character which will be the
16 basic approach to this document in the 1990s at the time when the
17 Yugoslav Federation was disintegrating.
18 Q. Thank you. So how did Serbs view this document in 1990, 1991,
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, before we continue, the 65 ter summary
21 gives me the impression that the subject matter for this witness is not
22 "The Islamic Declaration." It exclusively deals with the situation in
23 the Republika Srpska time.
24 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, we --
25 JUDGE ORIE: There's nothing else in the 65 ter summary.
1 MR. LUKIC: We informed the Prosecution, I spoke with Mr. Traldi,
2 that I will be dealing with "The Islamic Declaration" exclusively with
3 this witness.
4 JUDGE ORIE: It's fine. But is the Chamber to play a role in
5 this courtroom as well or is it just between the parties and that we -- I
6 mean, 65 ter summaries are also for the Chamber.
7 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. I apologise if we did not inform
8 the Chambers.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
10 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 MS. MELIKIAN: Yes, good morning. We were informed that the
14 Defence would be dealing with this document but not that they would be
15 dealing with it exclusively, just for the record.
16 MR. LUKIC: If you want me to, I can deal with other documents.
17 That's not the problem. But I don't have time, probably.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Because I gave two hours.
19 MR. LUKIC: Yes, two hours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Please proceed.
21 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
22 Q. [Interpretation] So, Mr. Dmicic, how did Serbs view the document
23 at the time?
24 A. It's Serb community in Bosnia-Herzegovina, as the second largest
25 in terms of population, primarily has an approach to this document that
1 is based on historic memory or, rather, knowledge that is based on that,
2 especially the wars that happened most recently before the latest tragic
3 events in the area.
4 Of course, there were certain fears vis-à-vis everything that is
5 contained in "The Islamic Declaration," especially messages that are in
6 the domain of expressing views regarding co-existence and life together
7 in a common state, that is to say, life of the non-Islamic population.
8 So they viewed in the view it in the context of what would happen if one
9 of the ethnic communities in Bosnia-Herzegovina were to --
10 MS. MELIKIAN: [Previous translation continues] ... objection.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Melikian.
12 MS. MELIKIAN: Yes. The answer is going well beyond the scope of
13 Mr. Lukic's question.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Although not an objection, but it's a general
15 occurrence this morning, Mr. Lukic. Could you please take care that the
16 witness remains within the scope of your question.
17 MR. LUKIC: I don't think that there is anything outside the
18 scope of my question, but it was a bit lengthy answer. Can I be directed
19 which part is beyond my question, please, from -- my learned friend knows
21 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it describes the document rather than
22 focussing on the view, unless you say please repeat what the content of
23 the document is. But, Mr. Lukic, let's -- to some extent, it's also not
24 evidence which is usually given by a witness of fact. Asking how the
25 community responds is, of course, either an expert question or requires a
1 thorough laying of a foundation.
2 Please proceed.
3 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Dmicic, what about the Muslims in your own
5 environment, people that you worked with? How did they view this
6 document; for example, members of the SDA? Could you tell us briefly.
7 A. We have to few the Islamic community in a two-fold manner. There
8 are those that we can identify as supporters of that, given the prefix of
9 radicalism. Then also there are the secular people, members of the
10 Communist party who also viewed with fear everything that was presented
11 from the context of the content of "The Islamic Declaration."
12 Q. As for these ideas from "The Islamic Declaration," did Alija
13 Izetbegovic first present them in "The Islamic Declaration"?
14 A. It was not the first time that these ideas were presented in "The
15 Islamic Declaration." I said at the very outset that we encounter these
16 ideas in the world, in the mid-19th century, and then through difficult
17 developments. However, he was the first one in 1979 to have formed this
18 in a consistent text. And then, of course, the Sarajevo trial in 1983 -
19 I'm going to use a legal term now - this was in some way made public. It
20 was made a public document.
21 MR. LUKIC: Can we have on our screens D00557, MNA, please.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Melikian, could I ask you when did Mr. Lukic
23 inform you that he wanted to make "The Islamic Declaration" part of his
25 MS. MELIKIAN: Yes, it was on the list of documents circulated
1 last week, and then I believe it was yesterday morning, although I can
2 double-check, that he spoke with Mr. Traldi.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 Mr. Lukic, you know that for "The Islamic Declaration" we have a
5 history there. The Defence failed to identify portions which they would
6 submit. Yesterday some portions were read from that. The same remains
7 valid, so that is, just throw the whole of "The Islamic Declaration" in
8 is not what the Chamber expects the Defence to do, so focus on specific
10 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. That's our intention, just those
11 entry questions.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Thank you.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We have before us the document we'll
14 be discussing today.
15 Q. But before that, since, as you told us, you were a participant of
16 the events that preceded the war, to the best of your direct knowledge,
17 how did Alija Izetbegovic see the need for preserving peace in
19 A. Mr. Izetbegovic, as we know, is the author of "The Islamic
20 Declaration" from 1979. He became the president in 1990. So one should
21 take into account that this is a period of just 11 or 12 years when he
22 came into a situation to be able to transform the context of "The Islamic
23 Declaration" as a programme document into a subject of his duties and
25 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness now answer the question, please.
1 Witness, you told us a lot, but you didn't give an answer to the
2 question. How did Alija Izetbegovic see the need for preserving peace in
3 Bosnia and Herzegovina? That was the question.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, in answer to that question,
5 one can briefly say this: When he came to the position of the president
6 of the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina and joining the process of
7 searching for solutions for the entire territory of the Federation,
8 wherein Bosnia-Herzegovina was one federal unit that he represented in
9 those negotiations, we're talking, therefore, about his participation in
10 the negotiations that were going on at the time.
11 But there were three important options there. The first one, to
12 put it most briefly, was creating a modern Yugoslav Federation, wherein
13 Serbia, Montenegro, Macedonia and Bosnia-Herzegovina would remain,
14 considering that from 1993, the Bosniak people were living in that entire
16 There was the second option that was later abandoned; namely, in
17 such a transformed Yugoslav state, to keep Slovenia and Croatia as well.
18 A later option was to pursue an independent state. That option
19 corresponds to the content of "The Islamic Declaration," if you consider
20 that to be the shortest path between "The Islamic Declaration" and
21 searching for a peaceful solution to the Yugoslav crisis at the time.
22 Thus, Mr. Izetbegovic had a peaceful approach officially, but that was in
23 the first part.
24 In the second part, however, it was obvious that there was a
25 completely different orientation, when the Bosniak and Croatian options
1 in looking for a solution for Bosnia-Herzegovina became closer together.
2 That's when the other ethnic communities, that is to say, Serbs, were
3 becoming discriminated against and outvoted. There were, therefore, two
4 conflicting options.
5 Q. Did Mr. Izetbegovic make any statements regarding peace and
6 keeping peace in Bosnia-Herzegovina?
7 A. Yes. Mr. Izetbegovic made a well-known statement regarding
8 sovereignty and peace. In fact, he made a statement about sacrificing
9 peace for the sake of creating an independent and sovereign
10 Bosnia-Herzegovina. That is a very well-known truth.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I again have to urge you to keep the
13 witness linked to your question, because the first lengthy answer of
14 approximately three minutes wasn't an answer either to the question.
15 It's only now when, for the third time, specifically asking about any
16 statements, that the witness gives us a clue to what you asked him
18 Could you please try to keep control.
19 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Q. [Interpretation] Another introductory question: What do you know
21 about the war past of Alija Izetbegovic?
22 A. We can identify it best in one statement given to the television
23 when he says that he had been convicted twice; the first time in 1946 for
24 his participation in the Young Muslims Movement; and the second time, in
25 the Sarajevo trial in 1983. Of course, the rest can be only discussed in
1 the context of the tragic conflicts between 1992 and 1995 in
3 Q. Thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could you tell us, to what extent the first
5 and the second conviction had something to do with the war past of
6 Mr. Izetbegovic? Let's start with 1946. Young Muslims Movement, was
7 that related to the war?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, certainly, because these --
9 JUDGE ORIE: And could you in one or two lines describe what it
10 had to do with the war.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, commonly known is the role of
12 the Young Muslims in the context of the Second World War, their
13 activities on the enemy side. I think that is quite sufficient as a
14 fact. Why? Because the trial in 1946 qualified it. And that's why he
15 was convicted and sentenced to three or four years, if I remember well.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Qualified it as what?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As the affiliation of the movement
18 to the enemy side.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
20 Now, the 1983 trial, what had that to do with the war past of
21 Mr. Izetbegovic?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We can associate it as a
23 continuation of his activity and his work that is defined through "The
24 Islamic Declaration," which was written in 1979, according to
25 Mr. Izetbegovic himself. And, of course, the Sarajevo trial pertained to
1 the content and his authorship of "The Islamic Declaration," together
2 with the group that was co-accused with him.
3 JUDGE ORIE: If I understand you well, it's you associating "The
4 Islamic Declaration" with the war past of Mr. Izetbegovic and not
5 specifically the charges brought against Mr. Izetbegovic in 1983 that
6 links to the war. Is that well understood?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In part, you are correct. But I'm
8 not linking up these two actions completely. I am just saying that in
9 terms of development through time, it is the progress of one kind of
10 thinking that will later appear in the 1983 trial discussing this
11 document. It's a completely legalistic approach --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you --
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- actions and --
14 JUDGE ORIE: -- you've answered my question.
15 Mr. Lukic.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let's look at page 3 in both
18 Q. We have "The Islamic Declaration" before us. We'll move through
19 the document and try to see the development of this idea.
20 I see in paragraphs 3 and 4 in both versions that Mr. Izetbegovic
21 says the whole Muslim world is in a state of turmoil and changes.
22 THE INTERPRETER: We do not see the right page. Interpreter's
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It seems, Mr. Lukic that the two pages are not
25 corresponding. Yes. Now we have corresponding pages.
1 MR. LUKIC: Yes, it's page 3. I asked for page 3.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Both page 3?
3 MR. LUKIC: Yes. I was just informed it's page 2 in English.
5 Q. So it's paragraph 3 and the last sentence in this paragraph says:
6 "[Interpretation] The era of passivity and inaction has passed forever."
7 The next paragraph:
8 "Everyone is trying to take advantage of this time of movement
9 and change, particularly foreign powers, both from the east and from the
10 west. Instead of their armies, they are now inserting their ideas and
11 their capital, and with this new mode of influence they are once more
12 endeavouring to accomplish their aim, to ensure their presence and keep
13 the Muslim nations in a state of spiritual helplessness and material and
14 political dependance."
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I think the B/C/S is not on the right
16 page. We move to the second page but this is still to be found on the
17 previous page, isn't it?
18 MR. LUKIC: Not on this page.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I see that what you were reading is above
20 where it reads "China, Russia and the western countries." Now, I'm not
21 that much of a B/C/S reader but "Kina and Rusija" sounds very much like
22 China and Russia. So, therefore, I think we are on the wrong page.
23 MR. LUKIC: No. We are on the right page in B/C/S.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Now we are because we moved one page back.
25 MR. LUKIC: Oh, okay.
1 Q. [Interpretation] So, Mr. Dmicic, you've read this document.
2 You've read this paper. In your view, at the time when you were working
3 with and for Alija Izetbegovic, how did he see the relations between
4 Muslims and foreigners? Do you have any personal knowledge?
5 A. One brief conclusion can be made from all this. The basic
6 substance of all this is fear and misgiving towards influence on
7 processes going on in the Muslim world, whether spiritual unity will be
8 achieved or not, the Islamic society, the Islamic order, and political
9 independence, because the substance of this message, in fact, is who will
10 have custody of the Muslim world? Who will have patronage over it?
11 In that sense, he maintained very intensive communication with
12 representatives of the international community, looking for an adequate
13 solution within the framework of the Bosnia-Herzegovinian crisis and more
14 generally the Yugoslav crisis, acting, of course, as the president of the
15 Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina. We could say that it was a
16 peace-seeking activity of the president.
17 There's just one more question that is raised there. Which part
18 of the international community dominates in these contacts? Of course,
19 major influence was felt vis-à-vis the countries of the Islamic world.
20 That is my statement.
21 Q. [In English] Thank you.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Lukic.
23 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: If I look at the translation of the original, it
25 seems that it is not a complete translation or some lines are added. If
1 you look at the title, it's different. There is an Arabic title. I
2 don't know what it is. But we have in English two titles. And then we
3 have something it could be "Our goal, our motto," and then there's
4 another line which is not translated.
5 MR. LUKIC: The first part of the title we can find on the
6 previous page in B/C/S, Your Honour, below the picture. So first two
7 lines we would find below the --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --
9 MR. LUKIC: -- first page of B/C/S.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I just wanted to draw your attention to the fact
11 that this translation seems not to be a translation by CLSS. It is so
12 different in style, and when you read a portion into the transcript, it
13 was quite different how it was translated then, or the mistakes I saw in
14 the text itself of the translation.
15 JUDGE ORIE: And could I take you back as well to the line below
16 "Our goal and our motto," and that's what Judge Fluegge has drawn your
17 attention to as well, there is one line starting with "Bismillah" and
18 with an, what do you call it, exclamation mark at the end, that line
19 seems not to be translated at all.
20 MR. LUKIC: I think that that's Arabic text.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Well, whatever it is, but if you present this
22 document, I take it that you'd like to know what the -- the line starting
23 with "Bismillahirahmanirrahim" that's what I can try to -- what does that
25 MR. LUKIC: I have no idea.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Then you should not present this document if you
2 have no idea and if you want to --
3 MR. LUKIC: That's what we have, Your Honour. We have to present
4 this document.
5 JUDGE ORIE: No. You can ask --
6 MR. LUKIC: Later on it will be checked. It's not that we can
7 present the document.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, if you present a translation, then it
9 should be either a translation which is complete, accurate and tested, or
10 you draw our attention to the fact that you were unable to read certain
11 parts of it and that, for that reason, you'll further submit it for
12 clarification. That's how you should deal with the matter and you have
13 done neither of them.
14 MR. LUKIC: We can now -- we can propose parts of the document to
15 be admitted, so we --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
17 MR. LUKIC: -- are not asking for this "Bismillahirahmanirrahim"
18 to be admitted.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Do you want this page to be admitted?
20 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: And then half of it untranslated for us.
22 MR. LUKIC: And some parts of the pages could be redacted.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It is not redacted yet. This is a problem.
24 MR. LUKIC: It is not. We will see at the end what will be
25 redacted and what will be proposed and offered for admission.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, we'll hear what you will tender or not,
3 and please be aware that the Chamber will not -- either you read into the
4 record certain portions. If that's what you do, fine. We've done that
5 yesterday; we can do it again. Or you tender any portion of it, and
6 whatever portion you tender, please take care that we have a translation
7 of that page.
8 Please proceed.
9 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Now we need page 4 in B/C/S and page 3 in the English version.
11 In B/C/S version, we need paragraphs 3 to 5, and in English version, also
12 paragraphs 3 to 5.
13 Q. [Interpretation] Here, in paragraph 3, in "The Islamic
14 Declaration," it says:
15 "In this conviction we announce to our friends and enemies alike
16 that Muslims are determined to take the fate of the Islamic world into
17 their own hands and arrange that world according to their own vision of
19 Next paragraph says that the ideas contained in the declaration
20 are not absolutely new.
21 And in the last sentence of that paragraph, it says:
22 "Its novelty lies in that it seeks to promote ideas and plans
23 into organised action aimed at their implementation.
24 "The struggle towards new goals did not begin today. On the
25 contrary. The history of this struggle already knows its shhada
1 containing pages of the suffering of its victims."
2 In his political activity, did Mr. Izetbegovic openly express the
3 wish for conflict, or did he conceal that?
4 A. One cannot draw the conclusion concerning the public declaration
5 of the basic substance that you spoke of. Communication with the world
6 and everything that changed within the quest for a solution to the
7 then-Yugoslav and Bosnia-Herzegovinian crisis indicated that the spirit
8 of this declaration is in the context of reaching an independent
9 sovereign state of Bosnia-Herzegovina; that is to say, outside the former
10 Yugoslav Federation, regardless of whether it would be the entire
11 Federation or the rump Federation, as we called it, with the remains of
12 the former Yugoslavia.
13 It is important to recognise here that over 700 million people
14 who belonged to the Islamic world are probably expected to create a
15 community that will be a guarantor --
16 Q. Mr. Dmicic, I do apologise. Please. My question was:
17 Mr. Izetbegovic, did he openly show that he was in favour of conflict or
18 did he try to conceal that?
19 A. He did not express it or show it openly.
20 Q. Thank you. Let us now take a look at page 5 in B/C/S, page 4 in
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Before we move to another page, can we scroll
23 down in the B/C/S version. I see that the footnote we see in the
24 translation is missing in the B/C/S version, and I have no idea where the
25 footnote I see -- yes, the penultimate line of the text. But that is
1 missing in the original. I have no idea why the translation has
2 additional information than the original.
3 MR. LUKIC: Obviously somebody who was translating felt that it
4 should be explained, what "shhada" means.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Somebody.
6 MR. LUKIC: We don't know who translated this document.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We have discussed that already. I just wanted to
8 draw your attention to that fact.
9 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honours. This document was first
10 distributed outside Bosnia because when it was printed it could not be
11 distributed in Bosnia and Former Yugoslavia, so probably was first
12 translated --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, is this a translation of the B/C/S
14 original or is it an English version which may deviate from the original?
15 MR. LUKIC: As I could see it, this is a translation of B/C/S
16 original with some obvious additions.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, which makes it a different version.
18 MR. LUKIC: But it's not separate text. The text that was signed
19 by Mr. Izetbegovic is translated.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
21 Please proceed.
22 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just for my own clarification, do I understand
24 that what's written in B/C/S is what's written by Izetbegovic?
25 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: And who then -- what is "Jumada al-Ula, 1390"?
2 MR. LUKIC: That's what he wrote. That's how he counted years,
3 in Islamic way. This is year of 1390, according to the Islamic calendar.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: And you say this Islamic -- this B/C/S text has
5 been translated here by somebody you don't know.
6 MR. LUKIC: Exactly.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
8 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can we see the next page in English, please. But
10 stay with the B/C/S version.
11 JUDGE ORIE: There we have the year, 1390 as well, but for one
12 reason or another, it's in the language used apparently. Perhaps in
13 B/C/S that's a different wording compared to the English way of
14 expressing that year.
15 MR. LUKIC: It's different spelling, same pronunciation.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Please proceed.
17 MR. LUKIC: Can we move now to page 5 in B/C/S and page 4 in
18 English, please. We need paragraph 6 in B/C/S version and paragraph 3 in
19 English version. Full text in English version from the beginning of the
21 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, it says here:
22 "Every non-Islamic programme may seem to be in contrast -- every
23 non-Islamic programme may seem to be close and within range of its
24 target, but for the Islamic world this is pure utopia, because these
25 programmes lie in the realm of the impossible."
1 In your view, to what extent was Mr. Izetbegovic open to ideas
2 that were not Islamic and based on Islam?
3 A. One must always bear in mind a completely wise and prepared
4 political leader. An Islamic order is possible only when one people, one
5 ethnic community, has domination. However, the essence of this is much
6 broader. It has to do with later deliberations in "The Islamic
7 Declaration" about the possibility or, rather, impossibility of
8 co-existence with non-Islamic people, a non-Islamic population. That
9 would be it.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, when you are asking for the pages, we are
11 now at e-court page 4, hard copy page 5. One of the problems is that
12 hard copy page 2 is missing at all in the English. Earlier you referred
13 to the hard copy page numbering. So it's a bit confusing, but I think we
14 are now reading from e-court page 4, hard copy page 5.
15 MR. LUKIC: I was following e-court pages, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Well, earlier --
17 MR. LUKIC: I don't know how that mistake happened.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Earlier you referred to hard copy pages. Please
20 MR. LUKIC: Thank you. We need again page 5 in B/C/S but now
21 paragraphs 7 and 8, and page 4 in English, paragraphs -- paragraph --
22 JUDGE ORIE: And the word "uvod" which appears on the top of this
23 page, is that translated or -- I don't know --
24 MR. LUKIC: I cannot see it on this page in English.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Well, on the page that was still on our screens.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE ORIE: I think the word "uvod" appears on top of the first
3 page where the following text is, "Do we want the Muslim peoples to break
4 out of the crisis?" That's at least I see that the -- it's immediately
5 following the year, which is in the B/C/S original, the previous page,
6 and then the word "uvod" - I don't know what it means - but apparently is
7 not translated. Do you know what it means?
8 MR. LUKIC: Introduction.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Introduction. Okay. Fine. Well, this is not an
10 official translation, but at least I have now an idea what I'm missing.
11 Please proceed.
12 MR. LUKIC: Thank you. In the last page in English version on
13 this page, we will have to move to the next page when we finish this
14 part, and then in B/C/S version, it's somewhere in the middle of the
16 Q. [Interpretation] "History demonstrates one fact: Islam is the
17 single idea which has been able to excite the imagination of the Muslim
18 people" --
19 MR. LUKIC: Can we move in English to the next page, please.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It's already there.
21 MR. LUKIC: Okay. Thank you. Top of the page then.
22 Q. [Interpretation] "No other ideal, foreign to Islam, has ever
23 managed to hold sway in any meaningful way either in culture or at state
24 level. All that is great and noteworthy in the history of the Muslim
25 peoples has been done under the banner of Islam. Only a few thousand
1 tried warriors of Islam forced Britain to withdraw from Suez in the
2 1950s, while the combined armies of the Arab nationalist regimes are now,
3 for the third time, loosing the battle against Israel. Turkey, as an
4 Islamic country, ruled the world. Turkey as a plagiary of Europe, is now
5 a third-rate country."
6 Further down it says: "A Muslim can die only in the name of
7 Allah and for the glory of Islam or flee from the battle-field."
8 How did Alija Izetbegovic view Islamic countries that espoused
9 western democracy?
10 A. If one carefully analyses the content in that part, it is
11 understandable that one gains the impression that western democracies are
12 not being accepted because they spoil Islam. Thereby, the very core in
13 the application of this content is that Bosnia-Herzegovina should be
14 organised as a society in which the interest of Islam would be protected.
15 MR. LUKIC: Now we need page --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, it's time for a break.
17 MR. LUKIC: It's break time.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, we'll take a break of 20 minutes, and we'd
19 like to see you back after that.
20 [The witness stands down]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, you have now spent one hour on a matter
22 which was not announced to us. It was chaotic, to say the least. It
23 elicited expert witness where this witness is not presented as an expert.
24 To some extent, it's calling for an exiguous of texts rather than for
25 factual knowledge of the witness. The Chamber expects you after the
1 break to continue with the announced evidence which is about
2 Republika Srpska and what the witness can tell us about that. If any
3 time remains at the end, that is, before you have consumed your two
4 hours, then you still have an opportunity to continue this line of
6 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, I'm going to continue with "The Islamic
7 Declaration." If you want to prevent me from examining this witness, you
8 can do that, I know --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic --
10 MR. LUKIC: -- but he --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, the examination of witnesses --
12 MR. LUKIC: You are trying to prevent us from putting this
13 document into evidence from the beginning of this trial.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, this is my last warning: If you
15 interrupt me again, you will have to ask co-counsel to come in to replace
16 you. Is that clear to you?
17 Mr. Lukic, examination of witnesses is under the supervision of
18 the Chamber. This was a non-announced 65 ter subject. As I said before,
19 you're eliciting evidence which is not evidence elicited by a witness of
20 fact. It is calling for exiguous. Further, it is at a level of
21 relevance which is so low that the Chamber hereby instructs you to first
22 address the other matters on the 65 ter list, and if any time remains,
23 you can fill the remaining time to continue with what has turned out to
24 be, until this very moment, evidence characterised by what I said earlier
25 and, apart from that, presented in a chaotic way.
1 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic. Mr. Lukic, think it over during the
3 break. This is our instruction. We take a break and we resume at five
4 minutes to 11.00.
5 --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.
6 [The witness takes the stand]
7 --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Lukic, I briefly respond to what you said.
10 Page 25, line 5, you said: "You are trying to prevent us from
11 putting this document into evidence from the beginning of this trial."
12 Mr. Lukic, this Chamber firmly rejects any such allegation. We
13 invited the Defence to select the portions which it wished to tender into
14 evidence. We had no follow-up on that. This Chamber has never, never
15 obstructed in any way that you present a witness who will deal with "The
16 Islamic Declaration" but what you're doing today is to present - and it's
17 not for the first time - a B/C/S version of "The Islamic Declaration"
18 with another version in English which certainly not is a complete
19 translation. You present this through a witness who is presented as a
20 witness of fact, although he's invited to give his opinion about many of
21 these things. That is what happened.
22 This Chamber, not now, not in the past, not in the future, will
23 in any way, in any way make it more difficult for you to have "The
24 Islamic Declaration" in evidence. But do it, present it, in the
25 appropriate way. That's one.
1 Second, I must admit that I missed the word on page 6, you said:
2 "We informed the Prosecution, I spoke with Mr. Traldi, that I'll be
3 dealing with 'The Islamic Declaration' exclusively with this witness."
4 Now I do understand, I missed that word, "exclusively". By the
5 way, it also means that where you had not informed the Prosecution that
6 you would exclusively deal with "The Islamic Declaration" that they had
7 to prepare for what was still in the 65 ter summary, which is an
8 inappropriate way of communicating, because the Prosecution would have
9 saved its time by not dealing with the other matters where you
10 exclusively wished to deal with "The Islamic Declaration" but you only
11 announced, if I understood Ms. Melikian well, that you would deal with
12 it, not that you would deal exclusively with it.
13 I also am aware now that where you do not want to tender any
14 other evidence, that this is the only thing you have remaining, where I
15 invited you to deal with the other matters in your 65 ter -- found in the
16 65 ter summary; therefore, whereas, I had consulted my colleagues that
17 you could not go on as you did, that is, in chaos and presenting expert
18 evidence through a witness of fact, that remains valid. And I -- just
19 give me one second.
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Although we were not unanimous, we will give you the
22 full hour remaining, the Chamber allows you, within the limits I set, to
23 continue to examine this witness in relation to "The Islamic
24 Declaration." At the same time we have great doubts as to whether that
25 can be done on the basis of this English version of the document.
1 I leave it to that. And we'll stop you exactly after two hours.
2 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, if I just may add one thing. CLSS does
3 not translate books, so we have to use the translation we have. They --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, whenever you seek the assistance of the
5 Chamber, you get everything you need. You know that. Whether it's what
6 other states should provide, whatever -- whatever is there. If that
7 causes you a problem, first of all, make clear to the Chamber in court
8 that you're working on the basis of an English version which is not
9 exactly the same. You had not spent a word on it, let alone that you
10 would have asked us in advance to get that translation. Whether we could
11 find, whether there is perhaps elsewhere a published English translation
12 which is more accurately following the B/C/S version, not on the day of
13 the testimony, in chaos, with a witness of fact.
14 I leave it to that. You may proceed.
15 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 MR. LUKIC: I just want to remind you of your guidance you gave
18 me on page 9 from line 5 that I should focus on specific portions, so
19 that's why I'm going through specific portions and all my questions
20 were --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But one of my concerns was not to elicit an
22 exiguous of this text from the witness. That's for experts. Ask him
23 questions which a witness of fact can answer.
24 Please proceed.
25 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Dmicic, my questions so far have been and
2 will continue to elicit your personal experience and knowledge regarding
3 the speeches, the actions, and the conduct of Mr. Izetbegovic while you
4 worked with him. The Chamber does not wish to listen to expert opinion,
5 especially since you have not been announced as such, so please
6 concentrate on your personal knowledge.
7 Let us look at page 17 in B/C/S and page 23 in English, please.
8 Second paragraph in B/C/S, last sentence. The last paragraph in English
9 and it continues on the next page. Sorry, paragraph 2 in English.
10 This sentence reads, after a certain introduction: "Whoever
11 rises against Islam will not reap anything but hatred and resistance."
12 I would like to know, were you ever present when Mr. Izetbegovic
13 threatened with terrorism?
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you show us where he threatens with terrorism,
16 MR. LUKIC: It's paragraph 2, Your Honour, on this page, last
18 JUDGE ORIE: Which deals with hatred and resistance. That's
19 terrorism? That's the same?
20 MR. LUKIC: No. I'm asking this witness if --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Then you are leading the witness by drawing his
22 attention to this portion of the document and then translating and
23 relating this to terrorism. That's leading, Mr. Lukic, and it's even
24 leading very much. You could have asked this question without even
25 pointing to "The Islamic Declaration," because you're asking for the
1 personal experience of this witness. And then if you want to relate that
2 later to the document, that's the non-leading way of introducing this.
3 Please proceed.
4 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
5 Q. [Interpretation] You've heard that I did not put my question very
6 artfully. Do you have any comment on this last sentence by
7 Mr. Izetbegovic?
8 THE INTERPRETER: Could the microphone of the counsel be switched
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you are asking me for an answer,
11 yes or no, if somebody rises against Islam, the answer can only be that I
12 have not had the opportunity to hear such public statements. This could
13 perhaps be turned only in one context, that is so say --
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The question is answered.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. You've answered my question. You were not present.
17 Have you ever heard anything said by Mr. Izetbegovic?
18 A. No, no, I haven't heard any such thing in public.
19 Q. Thank you. On the same page, 17 in B/C/S and 23 in English, the
20 last paragraph in English, the fourth paragraph in B/C/S, Mr. Izetbegovic
21 says in this paragraph, he talks about the liberation of Turkey from
22 Greece, the heroic resistance in Libya during Italian occupation, the
23 recent example of the battle against English over Suez, the war for the
24 liberation of Algeria, for the preservation of Indonesia, and for Islamic
25 influence in Pakistan.
1 JUDGE ORIE: That's on the next page, I take it. Yes. Please
3 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
4 Q. [Interpretation] What is your direct knowledge from talking to
5 people from the Party for Democratic Action and the SDS and any
6 conversations you might have had with Mr. Izetbegovic? How did he see
7 the struggle of other countries for Islam?
8 A. Since I worked in the Presidency, an organ that then represented
9 our federal unit, there was no such talk during the sessions. Whether
10 there was such discussions with international or national officials in
11 the Party for Democratic Action, I don't know. I see this passage as
12 part of a tendency that occurred 16 or 17 times in the conclusion of the
13 Presidency, that young men from the Bosniak and Croatian communities
14 should not be sent to the Yugoslav People's Army.
15 JUDGE ORIE: The last part is not related to your question, but
16 if you have never heard Mr. Izetbegovic to express himself on either
17 Turkey, Libya, Suez, or Algeria and Pakistan, then you could wait for the
18 next question put to you by Mr. Lukic.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: I was just going to say to you, Mr. Lukic, you
20 just said to the witness he must try to answer your questions and you're
21 going to ask questions of fact not opinion. Your last question was how
22 did he see the struggle of other countries for Islam? You are seeking
23 his opinion, how he sees --
24 MR. LUKIC: If he heard him telling --
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's a different question. How did he see is
1 one thing; have you ever heard him say something is quite another.
2 MR. LUKIC: But at --
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're asking for fact.
4 MR. LUKIC: But at least his answer was artful.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm talking about your question. Okay. Maybe
6 sure that your questions are formulated in such a way that you elicit
7 facts from the witness.
8 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Next question, please, Mr. Lukic.
11 MR. LUKIC:
12 Q. [Interpretation] So we continue on page 17 in B/C/S and page 24
13 in English, in e-court. In the B/C/S version, it's the last paragraph;
14 in the English, it's the second one.
15 It says: "The clear feelings of the Muslim masses need a thought
16 that would move them and direct them."
17 The last sentence in this paragraph says: "That can only be the
18 Islamic thought."
19 What did you see? In which way did Mr. Izetbegovic, as the
20 number one man of the largest Muslim party, convey messages and govern
21 that part of the population of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
22 A. The specific characteristic that appears in this, namely, when a
23 certain person is, at the same time, the presiding member of a state
24 organ and the leader of a political party - in this case, the SDA - can
25 actually indicate that within the entire life of the republic, through
1 the media, through political gatherings, through the involvement of
2 certain religious organs and individuals, through changes in general
3 conduct, through changes in language that already became customary in
4 communicating with the Islamic world, also having the work of state
5 organs stopped during religious holidays, perhaps in that context it is
6 possible to give thought to the answer that this question requires.
7 Q. Thank you. Paragraph 3 in the English version, and we need --
8 and we need page 18 in B/C/S. The last paragraph in the B/C/S version on
9 this page. In the first paragraph, we have the introduction and then the
10 last one says:
11 "There is only one way out. The creation and gathering of a new
12 intelligentsia which thinks and feels in an Islamic way. This
13 intelligentsia would then hoist the banner of the Islamic movement and,
14 together with the Muslim masses, start action for its implementation."
15 What did you see in practice? What happened in practice that
16 could be reflected from this part of "The Islamic Declaration"?
17 A. At the outset, I said that the impression is two-fold. Within
18 the population and within the intelligentsia, the situation was as
19 follows: There was a certain part of members of the academic community
20 or elsewhere in terms of Islamic feelings and thoughts, as the
21 declaration says, but perhaps here it primarily has to do with the
22 following: Already then in terms of public speech, in terms of the
23 media, publishing, and, of course, particularly through the activity of
24 religious communities or, rather, the religious community of that people,
25 it is something that we could call action, term it action, aimed at
1 setting up an Islamic movement and order in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
2 An analyst from the place where I worked can be placed within the
3 context of this part of my answer.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I put a follow-up question.
5 Sir, what is the name of this analyst you are referring to?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm speaking in general terms, that
7 is to say, carrying my own impressions. Also following headlines, titles
8 of books, not to go into all of that, or headlines in newspapers and what
9 leaders said -- I do apologise. They --
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I have to interrupt you because I just asked you
11 for a name. You said it is general observation. We are not so much
12 interested in general observations but in facts. And, therefore, I would
13 like -- if I understand you correctly, you were referring to newspaper
14 articles, headlines and the like, and that is the basis of your knowledge
15 for answering the last question of Mr. Lukic. Is that correct?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, and I stand by that. Thank
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
19 This is not really what I would like to know about. Your
20 question, Mr. Lukic, it was, what happened in practice? And this is not
21 an answer to your question.
22 MR. LUKIC: It is not. Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Dmicic, what happened in the media amongst
24 the top people in the media? Were there any changes at the helm at the
25 time? What happened? Sarajevo Oslobodjenje.
1 A. It is hard now to go back to the identification of individual
2 names. However, there are three main political parties that appeared on
3 the scene then. Of course, since they are protagonists of power, then in
4 the public media, in publishing houses, in institutions that are of
5 public interest, each and every one of them wanted their own people to
6 come to the helm. Now --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I stop you again. It goes exactly in the
8 same direction as we earlier said it should not go.
9 Do you know of any change, other people coming to the helm,
10 where, when, who? If you could tell us, we'd be interested to hear.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot identify names.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, next question, please.
13 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Can we see page 19 in B/C/S and page 25 in English, please.
15 [Interpretation] Second paragraph in both versions.
16 Q. We see what is written there. I quote:
17 "The briefest definition of the Islamic order defines it as the
18 unity of religion and law, upbringing and power, ideal and interest, the
19 spiritual community and the state, willingness and force."
20 Did you have an opportunity to see whether this was being carried
21 out in practice; and, if so, in which way.
22 A. My statement in relation to your question should be viewed in the
23 context of the duties I carried out in the Presidency of the Socialist
24 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. It was not a parliamentary organ that
25 proposed bills, as well as other measures that have to do with the
1 definition of Islam as an order and its implication, for example, in the
2 field of legislation, that was passed at the time and that was in force.
3 Because this period --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Witness. Witness, I stop you there. I'll stop you
6 Could you give us facts which, in your view, are an expression of
7 what was just read to you?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the very definition that
9 appears here, the unity of faith and law, and not to go into all the
10 rest, says --
11 JUDGE ORIE: I was asking about facts. Could you please first
12 give us the facts you have on your mind, and then tell us how and why you
13 consider them to be an expression of what is written here in relation to
14 the definition of the Islamic order?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is hard to give an answer to
16 that question, both in terms of the time involved, the functioning of the
17 Presidency, when I was carrying out certain duties there. It is possible
18 to present some of the facts that would be an answer to this question in
19 terms of identifying facts. I'm speaking about a general approach.
20 Probably --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Witness. Witness, give us facts. That's what I'm
22 asking are you for, not further explanation of why it is difficult or why
23 you, nevertheless, rather than giving facts would rely on general
25 Could you please give us the facts which reflect what is written
1 here, in your view?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is hard from the context of this
3 question to give the facts that you are speaking of.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then listen carefully to the next question
5 Mr. Lukic will put to you.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I will try.
7 Q. Did Alija Izetbegovic have a permanent position regarding what
8 Bosnia-Herzegovina should look like? Should it be divided, centralised,
10 A. These are three approaches.
11 Q. Please tell us about the approaches that he had.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. I mean Alija Izetbegovic.
14 A. Yes. The first one had to do with remaining within the rump
15 Yugoslav Federation, that is to say, an all-embracing, united
16 Bosnia-Herzegovina. The second approach was the creation of --
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: He answered that in the first session of today,
18 the three versions. You should put another question to the witness.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. When speaking of Bosnia-Herzegovina, what was his position? Did
21 he have one? Was it a constant one? Should it be centralised,
22 Bosnia-Herzegovina? And later on, when the war started, there were no
23 more talks about remaining in Yugoslavia.
24 A. He changed his positions.
25 Q. Was it supposed to be divided?
1 A. All the time in the public and vis-à-vis the international
2 community -- well, one should understand the crisis and solutions of
3 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Bosnia-Herzegovina appears within the borders of the
4 former Yugoslav state, the so-called avnoj borders --
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: That is not an answer to your question, please.
6 The witness is not answering your question.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Mr. Dmicic, you've heard this. Do you have any knowledge as to
9 what Alija Izetbegovic's views were after the war broke out and did he
10 stick to one position?
11 A. No. Following the processes happening in Bosnia-Herzegovina, in
12 the beginning, Bosnia-Herzegovina as a federal state, then later on,
13 Bosnia-Herzegovina divided into these three state-forming entities, and
14 within that, we have his government in fact, that is to say, factually.
15 It was only part of Bosnia-Herzegovina. One should have that knowledge
16 within the framework of this question and the answer that is now being
18 Q. So Alija Izetbegovic, was he in favour of a centralised
19 Bosnia-Herzegovina all the time? Was he in favour of a divided
20 Bosnia-Herzegovina all the time? Or did he change his positions?
21 A. Within the framework of his view, all three approaches emerged.
22 However, one must bear in mind that authority was exercised over a part
23 of Bosnia-Herzegovina once it was divided after the tragic conflict
24 started. So that is where the order that we are discussing prevailed.
25 That is where these units were that were created --
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The witness is not answering your question.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh well ...
3 JUDGE ORIE: Let me give it another try.
4 You said after the war broke out. After the war broke out, was
5 Mr. Izetbegovic, was he in favour of a division or was he in favour of a
6 united Bosnia and Herzegovina?
7 Witness. Witness, could you please answer the question.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I emphasise that throughout the war
9 until the Dayton Accords, Bosnia-Herzegovina functioned as three states.
10 That was in practice; whereas, Bosnia-Herzegovina was internationally
11 recognised as a state.
12 So Mr. Izetbegovic held out himself to be in the international
13 community a representative of Bosnia-Herzegovina. The purpose was to
14 keep Bosnia-Herzegovina whole, including the tendencies we've already
16 JUDGE ORIE: Well, to make the best out of it, Mr. Lukic, you
17 could understand the answer to be that Mr. Izetbegovic was in favour of
18 keeping it as a whole, but there are other tendencies mentioned as well,
19 which are not entirely clear to me.
20 Let's try to get the questions so focussed that there is at least
21 a chance that after a few introductions that we get an answer.
22 And could you please start answering the question instead of
23 giving introductory remarks.
24 Please proceed.
25 MR. LUKIC: Can we have page 19 in B/C/S and 25 in English,
1 please. Are we on this page, the same page?
2 [Interpretation] In the B/C/S, it's highlighted in the fourth
3 paragraph, and in English, it's the last paragraph.
4 Q. It says: "History does not know a single truly Islamic movement
5 that was not, at the same time, a political movement as well."
6 Do you have any comment from practice? Have you seen such
7 conduct in practice, while you worked in the Presidency of
9 JUDGE ORIE: No. What conduct, Mr. Lukic? The line reads that
10 history has not seen ever that.
11 Are you asking the witness whether he observed any facts in
12 practice which would match with this observation? Is that -- that's
13 different question from the one you asked.
14 So could you give us any fact you observed in practice which
15 would match with what is given here as a rather general statement about
16 history and a political movement -- Islamic movement being a political
17 movement at the same time? Any facts that you could match with that?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If one accepts the fact, my
19 impression and my knowledge is just as I said before. We are talking
20 about carrying out in parallel political and statesman's functions,
21 pursuing the ideas of "The Islamic Declaration" in his political activity
22 and in his activity as a statesman.
23 As for facts, it is difficult to speak in such terms. This is a
24 programme document. This is an ideological platform for political
25 activity, and the activity was just beginning, in the early days of the
1 conflict, while the joint Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina still
2 functioned. The war lasted three or four years.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Witness --
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- after the Dayton Accords even --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I interrupt you again. If you are talking
6 about activity, what activity do you have on your mind which would match
7 with this generally phrased statement in "The Islamic Declaration"?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We could mention, for instance, one
9 of his speeches, if I remember well in Bihac, which was along the lines
10 that: All this will be translated into practice from "The Islamic
11 Declaration" and that a large number of young people stand behind it,
12 prepared to put this programme into practice. You can find the
13 appropriate headlines or titles in this field. It was a huge output from
14 the Party for Democratic Action and a large number of authors whom I
15 won't mention now.
16 JUDGE ORIE: I think you have -- well, "answered the question" is
17 perhaps a bit too much, but you at least told us that he promulgated the
18 same ideas during a speech in Bihac, and that's a fact, a speech in
19 Bihac, although not facts which match exactly with what was written.
20 Next question, please, Mr. Lukic.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I have one question to the witness.
22 When did Mr. Izetbegovic deliver this speech?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember the date, but it
24 was -- could it be the 1st of April, 1990? That can be checked. It's in
25 the book published by the Party for Democratic Action, a collection of
1 statements and speeches by the president.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. You have answered the question.
3 Mr. Lukic.
4 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Can we have page 21 in B/C/S and 28 in English.
6 Q. [Interpretation] We see the heading: "Islam is not just a
8 In B/C/S, it's page 26 and page 35 in English where
9 Mr. Izetbegovic speaks about the striving of all Muslims to unite into
10 one community, one single community. In English, it's paragraphs 1 to 3.
11 In paragraphs also 1 and 3, in the third, it says: "One community is" --
12 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter has not found this passage yet,
14 MR. LUKIC: It's the last paragraph before "property." "Islam is
15 the first ..."
16 And the last sentence in this paragraph, I would read in B/C/S
18 [Interpretation] "Islam is its idealogy and pan-Islamism its
19 politics ..."
20 MR. LUKIC: And now page 47 in B/C/S and 59 in English, please.
21 We need first paragraphs in both versions.
22 Q. [Interpretation] In the first sentence already, we see
23 "Pan-Islamism and Nationalism" is the heading, and the first
24 paragraph begins:
25 "In one of the arguments for the Islamic order today, we said
1 that the tendency to gather together all Muslims in Muslim communities in
2 the world was a natural function of the Islamic order. In today's
3 circumstances, this striving means a struggle to create a great Islamic
4 Federation from Morocco to Indonesia, from tropical Africa to Central
6 Did you have occasion in reality to see with which countries
7 Mr. Izetbegovic created the closest ties and relations?
8 A. I can say that the largest number, from what I managed to find
9 out working in the Presidency, the largest number of ties were with
10 countries of the Islamic world. But in the Islamic Federation, reference
11 is made to creating a federation. That means countries which do not need
12 to be territorially linked. This was a problem --
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The question was with which countries he created
14 the closest ties. Please name the countries.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I said mainly the dominant
16 countries of the Islamic world at the time, from Indonesia to the
17 Middle East. Those are the countries where Mr. Izetbegovic spent some
18 time working in certain companies of Bosnia-Herzegovina --
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: To a certain extent, now you have answered the
21 Please, Mr. Lukic.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let us look at page 22 now in B/C/S
23 and 29 in English. In B/C/S, it's the second paragraph; in English, it's
24 the last one.
25 Q. It reads:
1 "The first and foremost of these conclusions is certainly the
2 conclusion about the incompatibility of Islam with non-Islamic systems.
3 There can be neither peace nor co-existence between the Islamic faith and
4 non-Islamic social and political institutions."
5 This is an oft-quoted passage. I'm certain that you've heard it
7 A. Essentially this is a striving for domination. In the
8 circumstances of Bosnia-Herzegovina, such domination was possible only
9 with --
10 JUDGE ORIE: First of all, the question was --
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: There was no question.
12 JUDGE ORIE: There was no question, as a matter of fact.
13 Mr. Lukic said: "This is an oft-quoted passage. I'm certain that you've
14 heard it before." That's an assumption. Fine. Do you seek affirmation
15 of that assumption or would you like to add a question?
16 MR. LUKIC: I would like to add a question.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Then please do so.
18 MR. LUKIC: The gentleman started to respond so I kept silent.
19 JUDGE ORIE: No. You just stopped speaking, Mr. Lukic. You
20 didn't put a question to the witness. But you now do.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. So, Mr. Dmicic, were there, in practice, any attitudes towards
23 the army, the state, the institutions that would follow these lines?
24 A. If you mean attitude towards institutions, it was about
25 domination in parliamentary decision-making. It's about the attitude
1 towards young Bosniaks joining the Yugoslav People's Army. It's about a
2 general striving to create an independent and sovereign state. Because
3 we are talking about 1992, a period when the circle of Yugoslavia's
4 breakup was full and there began a search for solutions to the internal
5 reorganisation of Bosnia and Herzegovina, in terms --
6 Q. Just a moment. The Party for Democratic Action, that is to say,
7 the party of the Bosniak people in Bosnia-Herzegovina, did it create its
8 own army before 1992?
9 A. Yes, they did. It's the Green Berets --
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, why do you ask a leading question?
11 MR. LUKIC: It's already in evidence in this case, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Why do we need to answer the question to --
13 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation].
14 MR. LUKIC: I already asked attitude toward military or toward
15 state or ...
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Ask him when was the SDA formed.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation].
18 Q. You've heard this, Mr. Dmicic. Do you know when the SDA was
20 A. I think it was in 1989, one year before the multi-party elections
21 in 1990. By that time, all the national parties were formed because they
22 were all present at the multi-party elections in September 1990.
23 Just after returning from --
24 Q. Which one was founded first? Which national party was formed
25 first in Bosnia-Herzegovina?
1 A. The SDA, that of the Bosniak people; then the HDZ, the party of
2 the Croatian people; and then the SDS. That was formed in July of the
3 previous year and was then was able to participate in the multi-party
4 elections in 1990.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, although that seems to be a very
6 repetitious of seeking of evidence, I think the order in which the
7 parties were formed, I think we've heard it five, six, or seven times.
8 Unless there's any specific matter. The Chamber has considered how to
9 proceed. You'll have 15 minutes after the break. Strictly. Not one
10 minute more. We'll take a break. We'll resume at quarter past 12.00 and
11 you have until 12.30 to conclude your examination-in-chief.
12 Witness, we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes.
13 --- Recess taken at 11.56 a.m.
14 --- On resuming at 12.14 p.m.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, your last 15 minutes starts now.
16 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 We need page 22 in B/C/S and 29 in English version from this
18 document, please. In B/C/S, it's paragraph 2. I will read in B/C/S the
19 bolded version. In English, it's the fifth line from the bottom of the
21 Q. [Interpretation] So the second part in bold letters in B/C/S
23 "By claiming the right to order its own world itself, Islam
24 obviously excludes the right or possibility of action on the part of any
25 foreign idealogy in that area."
1 Do you have any comment from your own practice?
2 A. If Islam is an integrated system of belief, the essence of the
3 impression pertains to the following: Activity was identical in a way in
4 the Presidency --
5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could all other
6 microphones please be switched off. Thank you.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We said already at the beginning it
8 is this unity of worldly life and religious life in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Thank you. We are in a hurry so I'm going to skip a few things.
11 Let us look at page 43 now in the B/C/S version and page 55 in
12 the English version.
13 It is Islamic governance that is dealt with here. We need
14 paragraph 3 in B/C/S and it's the last paragraph in the English version.
15 This is what it says here:
16 "The Islamic movement should and can start to take over power as
17 soon as it is morally and numerically strong enough to be able not only
18 to topple the existing non-Islamic government, but also to build up a new
19 Islamic one."
20 How was this viewed in pre-war life in Bosnia-Herzegovina?
21 A. During its pre-war life, Bosnia-Herzegovina was an equitable part
22 of the Yugoslav Federation, a federal unit with three state-forming
23 peoples with equal rights, introducing a philosophy, morality, code of
24 conduct, a new life, if I can put it that way, within Bosnia-Herzegovina,
25 on the basis of the proclamations declared in this declaration are an
1 intimation of creating a Bosnia-Herzegovina as an independent state. I
2 point that out once again, that it had already gone through all of those
3 stages. Building a new government means in temporal terms to wait and
4 create conditions to ensure the domination of one or more peoples
5 involved in a joint effort in Bosnia-Herzegovina. So we can only view
6 this in temporal terms, that is to say, advocating the creation of
7 conditions for toppling the existing system and creating a new one, of
8 course, that would be based on the premises of this document. That is
9 what I have to said.
10 Q. What about the referendum and the referendum question regarding
11 the independence of Bosnia-Herzegovina? Was there a particular position
12 on that?
13 A. The referendum question is one of the worst points in the quest
14 for a solution in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Had the compromised solution
15 refused by Mr. Izetbegovic been adopted, then probably there wouldn't
16 have been a war and --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Again, this is opinion evidence rather than anything
18 else, and apart from that, the facts, I think, if the witness would come
19 to that --
20 MR. LUKIC: He knows the facts. He is trying to explain.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, if you would not have interrupted me.
22 The facts have reached us several times. Just from the top of my head, I
23 can tell you it was the 15th of October and that was the assembly session
24 which was then part left, et cetera. All those facts, I think, are well
25 presented in the evidence.
1 The witness started with giving an opinion. If you had asked for
2 facts, then I might have said, isn't this repetitious evidence.
3 Please proceed.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. What action did Mr. Izetbegovic take after the war in relation to
6 the Dayton Agreement?
7 A. The Dayton Peace Agreement stopped the war and ensured the
8 establishment and functioning of the system of the state of
9 Bosnia-Herzegovina since the parties were not quite satisfied with the
10 solution, but, of course, the solution did provide for peace and a
11 continuation of normal life. As the Dayton Accords --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I interrupt you again. The question was
13 what action did Mr. Izetbegovic take after the war in relation to the
14 Dayton Agreement? What action did he take; could you please tell us?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In a single sentence, continuing
16 the struggle for a centralised unitary Bosnia-Herzegovina. That is my
17 answer in a single sentence.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
19 Please proceed.
20 MR. LUKIC:
21 Q. [Interpretation] Did he write any submissions; and, if so, to
22 whom? Did he involve the constitutional court of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
23 Can you hear me?
24 A. I can.
25 Q. Did Mr. Izetbegovic involve the constitutional court in the
1 resolution of certain matters, and what happened after decisions were
2 made? Could you please briefly just describe this to us.
3 A. Even today, after 15 years, once the constitutional norm was no
4 longer there concerning the possibility of a different --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I'll stop you again. I'll interrupt you
6 again. Although the question as was leading as could be, but I can ask
7 you a leading question: Did he involve the constitutional court of
8 Bosnia-Herzegovina? Did he, or did he not? After the war.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Certainly, because the Presidency
10 of Bosnia-Herzegovina as --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you --
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- an organ which --
13 JUDGE ORIE: -- you don't have to explain why. Witness, you
14 don't have to explain why. You confirmed --
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I want to say --
16 JUDGE ORIE: No. Under the circumstances, I can interrupt you.
17 You cannot interrupt me.
18 You have confirmed - and that was the question - that he involved
19 the constitutional court.
20 Listen to Mr. Lukic's next question.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Was the constituent quality of peoples discussed?
23 A. Only two years after Dayton, Mr. Izetbegovic made a submission to
24 the constitutional court regarding the constitutional or constituent
25 quality of the peoples of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and that led a situation
1 throughout the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, although the entities
2 espoused in the Dayton Accords with their subjectivity and identity were
3 there as they were before the Dayton Accords. That would be it.
4 Q. Was this changed subsequently? Were there any constitutional
5 amendments? What happened?
6 A. Immediately after that, the decision of the constitutional court
7 that were made up until 2000, the High Representative, by implementing
8 this decision, passed tens of amendments regarding the entities.
9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We didn't hear the end of
10 the sentence.
11 MR. LUKIC:
12 Q. The interpreters didn't hear the last part of your answer so
13 please repeat it.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In this way, the High
16 Representative in 2002 passed tens of constitutional amendments and fully
17 implemented the decision of the constitutional court of
18 Bosnia-Herzegovina, thus ensuring the constituent quality of all three
19 peoples in the entire territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
20 Q. Just one more question. Do you know in which way and to what
21 extent Mr. Izetbegovic was involved in bringing in Mujahedin from Arab
22 countries in order to wage war on the side of the Muslims in
24 A. My knowledge is primarily --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please put this question now not in a
1 five-time leading way.
2 Please proceed.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Do you know that Mujahedin came to Bosnia-Herzegovina?
5 A. I know. First of all --
6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Both speakers are speaking
7 at the same time.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were certain persons who had
9 connections from earlier on, and there's information to the effect that
10 there were 10.000 of them.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to who was involved in bringing
13 Mujahedin into Bosnia-Herzegovina?
14 A. I can just say concerning a general position that these were
15 basically persons who maintained contacts and relations with the
16 countries that we mentioned in our previous statement; from the political
17 and diplomatic life of Bosnia-Herzegovina, that is.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, perhaps it would assist you if I would
19 ask the witness in what year that happened.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. You heard the question put by Judge Orie. What year did they
22 arrive in Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Mujahedin?
23 A. Our information is that it was already in 1992, particularly in
25 JUDGE ORIE: You referred twice to information, both about the
1 number of 10.000 and now about the years. Do I understand that you have
2 no personal knowledge of it?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We must bear in mind the fact that
4 I was no longer on the staff of the Presidency of the Republic of
5 Bosnia-Herzegovina. I lived in Republika Srpska. So territorially, I
6 lived in a completely different area. All other information can come
7 only from the media and --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, the simple answer, therefore, is, no, I
9 don't have that.
10 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. You don't have any personal knowledge, of course, and you told us
14 just now why that is the case. As --
15 JUDGE ORIE: It is now time for your last question.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. As you lived in Republika Srpska, what kind of knowledge did you
18 acquire? Who took part in bringing in the Mujahedin?
19 A. I have already said that this is knowledge but it is not facts
20 that I could see myself. It is mainly these persons who were involved in
21 political life or diplomatic life and had direct links to the countries
22 that dominated in terms of co-operation with Bosnia-Herzegovina, that is
23 to say, between 1990 and 1992, the pre-war period. That would be my
25 So this is knowledge but not facts that I could have seen
1 directly. I mean documents and the like.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, page 53, line 12, says "[Previous
3 translation continues] ..." where I spoke. What I said is it's now time
4 for your last question. I repeat that. You have one extra granted to
5 you by our transcriber.
6 Please proceed.
7 MR. LUKIC: So it is good when you are not recorded in the
9 Q. [Interpretation] Just tell us one more thing. What are these
10 countries with which Bosnia-Herzegovina had contacts in terms of bringing
11 in Mujahedin and what is your knowledge in that respect? And that would
12 be my last question.
13 A. My knowledge is that this is mainly Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, and
14 other countries that we've already mentioned within my previous
15 statements. These are already generally known facts.
16 Q. Mr. Dmicic, thank you for having answered our questions. That is
17 all that the Defence of General Mladic had for you for the moment. Thank
18 you once again.
19 A. You're welcome.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
21 Witness, Mr. Dmicic, you'll now be cross-examined by
22 Ms. Melikian. You will see her on your screen soon. Ms. Melikian is
23 counsel for the Prosecution, but apparently she wants to say something
25 MS. MELIKIAN: Yes. Thank you, Mr. President.
1 We have no questions for the witness.
2 JUDGE ORIE: No questions in cross-examination.
3 Then, Mr. Dmicic, this then concludes your testimony in this
4 court. I'd like to thank you very much for making yourself available and
5 for having answered all the questions that were put to you. I usually
6 say by the parties and by the Bench, but in this case I should say by the
7 Defence and by the Bench. I wish you a safe return home again.
8 No speaking aloud.
9 [Defence counsel confer]
10 JUDGE ORIE: You are excused, Mr. Dmicic.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 [The witness withdrew]
13 JUDGE ORIE: This concludes the videolink.
14 Is your next witness ready? Because we asked him to remain on
15 standby the second half of the morning, and since we'll not continue with
16 the videolink at this moment --
17 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour, but maybe it would be wise to have
18 a short break since I have to go and pick up by my colleague Mr. Ivetic
19 who is in the back.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's fine. Then we take a bit of an earlier
21 break. Mr. Lukic ...
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE ORIE: My problem is that if we would take the break now,
24 that we'd have still 75 minutes to go until quarter past 2.00 and that
25 might be too much for Mr. Mladic. So, therefore, if you could get
1 Mr. Ivetic in two or three minutes, then we'll just wait for him. And if
2 he rushes a bit then ...
3 MR. LUKIC: And --
4 JUDGE ORIE: No speaking aloud, Mr. Mladic. Again. No, to no
5 one, never.
6 Yes, Mr. Lukic.
7 MR. LUKIC: I don't know if VWS brought our next witness yet into
8 the building, so that's why I'm not sure that we can continue
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that could be.
11 Madam Registrar, could you try to find out with VWS whether the
12 next witness is already there. Otherwise, I have a matter which we
13 should deal with in private session anyhow.
14 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it's unclear yet whether the witness has
16 arrived or not.
17 Meanwhile, we'll use the time by dealing with a matter we should
18 deal with in private session.
19 [Private session]
11 [Open session]
12 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
14 Our information is at this moment that the witness would be here
15 in five minutes. Now, we can do two things: Either take the break now
16 and have a little bit of a longer session. Another thing we could do is
17 that I deal with a few procedural matters first, that we'll then continue
18 until quarter past 1.00 or a little bit longer so that we have the full
19 session and that we'll then hear the witness starting from five minutes
20 from now. I think the latter would be the best so that we have no long
22 Then I'll deal briefly with a few matters and I'd like to be
23 informed once the witness has arrived.
24 The first one is about Exhibit P5273 which is an excerpt from a
25 handwritten notebook which was admitted into evidence on the 13th
1 February of 2014.
2 The Prosecution e-mailed the Chamber and the Defence on the 11th
3 of November, 2015, advising that a revised English translation which
4 includes two amendments at page 3 had been uploaded into e-court under
5 doc ID 0672-2270-1ET. The Defence responded on the 16th of
6 November stating that it did not object to the replacement of the
7 translation. The Chamber hereby instructs the Registry to replace the
8 English translation of Exhibit P5273 with the revised one of which I just
9 read the number.
10 The next item deals with Exhibit P7072 and is also about an
11 English translation, a replacement. This document confirming Jandranko
12 Palija's military service was admitted into evidence on the 28th
13 January of 2015. At transcript pages 30815 through 30817, the Chamber
14 identified a discrepancy between the original and the translation with
15 regard to Palija's dates of birth.
16 On 2nd of November, the Prosecution e-mailed the Chamber and the
17 Defence advising that a revised English translation had been uploaded
18 into e-court under doc ID 0049-1779-ET-1.
19 The Chamber hereby instructs the Registry to replace the
20 translation of Exhibit P7072 with a revised one and gives the Defence one
21 week from today to revisit the matter.
22 And since I'm almost done, although the witness has arrived, I
23 briefly deal with P6921, that is the reassignment of an exhibit number.
24 On the 17th November of last year, 2014, during the testimony of
25 Milos Milincic, P6921 was reserved for document bearing 65 ter number
1 02366a which is an excerpt from transcript from the RS Assembly.
2 Additional pages were used with Vojo Kupresanin on the 11th and the 16th
3 of December.
4 On the 4th of November, 2015, the Prosecution e-mailed the
5 Chamber and the Defence advising that it had uploaded all excerpts of
6 this document into e-court as document bearing Rule 65 ter number 02366b.
7 The Chamber hereby instructs the Registry to assign exhibit
8 number P6921 to the new document and admits it into evidence, and the
9 Defence has one week from today to revisit that matter.
10 [The witness takes the stand]
11 JUDGE ORIE: There's one left. We will postpone that until
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 Apologies, Mr. Kovac, for not paying proper attention to you
15 entering the courtroom.
16 Mr. Weber, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?
17 MR. WEBER: Yes, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kovac, I, however, have to remind that you
19 you're still bound by the solemn declaration that you've given at the
20 beginning of your testimony.
21 Mr. Weber, you may proceed.
22 WITNESS: MITAR KOVAC [Resumed]
23 [Witness answered through interpreter]
24 Cross-examination by Mr. Weber:
25 MR. WEBER: Thank you.
1 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Kovac.
2 A. Good afternoon.
3 Q. Last Thursday, at transcript page 41317 to 18, you indicated that
4 you interviewed General Grubac and Milenko Lalovic as sources of
5 information for your report. General Radovan Grubac was the commander of
6 the Herzegovina Corps of the VRS; correct?
7 A. He was the commander of the Herzegovina Corps, and Lalovic is a
8 colonel. Maybe I misheard that you called him general.
9 Q. We'll go one by one. Let's go in order, though. Novica Gusic
10 was the commander of the Nevesinje Brigade of the Herzegovina Corps;
12 A. General Grubac was the commander of the Herzegovina Corps.
13 Q. Yes. Sir, please listen to my questions carefully. Novica Gusic
14 was the commander of the Nevesinje Brigade of the Herzegovina Corps;
16 A. Yes, Novica Gusic. But I said I talked to Colonel Milenko
17 Lalovic, commander of a battalion in that brigade.
18 Q. During the war, Milenko Lalovic was a battalion commander in the
19 Nevesinje Brigade; correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 33245 for
22 the witness.
23 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, your microphone is on.
24 MR. WEBER:
25 Q. I'm going to go through a set of documents and then ask you some
2 This is a 27 June 1992 regular combat report from General Grubac
3 to the VRS Main Staff. In item 2, related to the combat readiness of the
4 corps, the report states: "The Nevesinje Brigade is 'cisti' the area
5 along the Podvelezje line and taking measures to seize the Velez
7 Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 33246 for the witness.
8 This is a 28 June 1992 regular combat report from General Grubac
9 to the VRS Main Staff. In item 2, related to the combat readiness of the
10 corps, the report states: "The principal task of the Nevesinje Brigade
11 is still to ciscenje Podvelezje and Velez feature."
12 My question: The Nevesinje Brigade was carrying out operations
13 near the town of Nevesinje and the Velez feature in late 1992; correct?
14 A. No, it was not an operation. Those were regular combat
15 activities in the area of responsibility of the brigade.
16 Q. These activities were being carried out by a brigade under
17 General Grubac's command; correct?
18 A. No, he was not the brigade commander. Or maybe I'm getting the
19 wrong interpretation.
20 Q. I'll re-ask my question. These activities were being carried out
21 by a brigade under General Grubac's command; correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have P7657 for the
25 Q. This is a list of imprisoned individuals from the area of Velez
1 mountain on 26 June 1992. On this list there are 26 women and 20
2 children, the youngest of which was a baby that was seven days old.
3 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have the last page of
4 both versions.
5 Q. At the end of the document, there's information that 30 persons
6 from the list have been identified and buried and there are 42 persons
7 that have not yet been found. In preparation for your report, did
8 General Grubac or Milenko Lalovic tell you how they cleansed these areas
9 of Muslims?
10 MR. IVETIC: Objection; misstates the evidence, misstates the
12 JUDGE ORIE: If there's any issue about misstating a document,
13 Mr. Weber, would you please quote it.
14 MR. WEBER: I've gone to the two documents.
15 Q. Did General Grubac or Mr. Lalovic tell you how they ciscenje'd
16 these areas?
17 A. All this is taken out of the context a little. Even that term
18 "cleansing" is in quotation marks. It does not relate to population. It
19 relates to inserted groups and the mountain that was important to both
20 Serbs and Muslims in that area. And the whole context of this document
21 is being associated with ethnic cleansing of the population, which was
22 not the case. They did not tell me about such things, nor did we discuss
23 such things.
24 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 33487 for
25 the witness.
1 Q. This is a 14 June 1992 Nevesinje Brigade report from Colonel
2 Novica Gusic. Under item 3 of the report, he informs the Herzegovina
3 command that "measures should be taken immediately with the aim of moving
4 out the population from the brigade's area of responsibility and
5 especially Croatian and Muslim population because this has a negative
6 effect on the mood and morale of units."
7 Sir, the fact is that when the brigade was carrying out the
8 ciscenje of villages, they were moving out Muslim and Croatian
9 populations; right?
10 A. I don't think so. I think this is a one-sided view of the
11 situation three months after the start of the civil war. I said
12 yesterday that the people, all the three nations - Muslim, Croats, and
13 Serbs - followed their armies wherever they controlled some territory,
14 and these are the initial months of the civil war in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
15 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution tenders 65 ter numbers 33245, 33246,
16 and 33487 into evidence.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
18 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter number 33245 receives exhibit number
19 P7664. 65 ter number 33246 receives exhibit number P7665. And 65 ter
20 number 33487 receives exhibit number P7666, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: All three are admitted into evidence.
22 Could I ask one clarifying question. You said this is a
23 one-sided view. Did you mean the view expressed in the document or the
24 view as you apparently heard it in the question put to you by Mr. Weber?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I meant the attitude to this
1 specific situation and the time of these events in that area. Because
2 what is shown here is the moving of only one part of the population,
3 Muslims and Croats, from the area of the Nevesinje Brigade. What is not
4 seen is that this was a process in both directions.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I'm not asking you to elaborate on that.
6 You said it was a one-sided view. Were you referring to the view
7 expressed in the document, or were you referring to the view which you
8 apparently heard in the question of Mr. Weber?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I meant it was a one-sided view
10 compared to the objective situation on the ground at the time.
11 JUDGE ORIE: It's still not an answer to my question.
12 But please move on, Mr. Weber.
13 MR. WEBER:
14 Q. According to the first page of your curriculum vitae, you were a
15 lead researcher at the Art of War Institute between September 1991 and
16 September 1999. Did you hold this position in the JNA and then in the
17 Yugoslav army, also known as the VJ?
18 A. Yes. I held that position at the institute in both those
20 Q. Yes. Were you a part of the JNA and then the VJ when you held
21 that position -- those positions?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. In your CV, I don't see any reference to your deployments to
24 Croatia after September 1991 or to Bosnia in 1993. You do not include
25 these deployments in the description of your professional career;
2 A. It's included in the part that lists the duties within the
3 troops. It says that I was commander of an artillery battalion, and,
4 after that, Chief of Staff of an artillery regiment. I also said that I
5 was sent for temporary work in the duration of six months without --
6 without abandoning my duties at the institute and that was subject to a
7 legal arrangement.
8 Q. You were deployed to the Croatian Krajina in the fall of 1991 as
9 part of the 145th Light Infantry Brigade, known as the Plaski Brigade;
11 A. Yes. Yes, in that brigade.
12 Q. The commander of the 145th Brigade was Petar Trbovic; correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution, please, have 65 ter 14406 for
15 the witness.
16 JUDGE ORIE: While we're waiting for that, I have one follow-up
17 question on one of the previous matters.
18 Witness, you said when we looked at that document, paragraph 3,
19 well, the population wanted to follow their armies. That's what the
20 situation was but the document says otherwise. The document doesn't say,
21 We should facilitate the Muslims and the Croats to follow their armies.
22 But they say, We should take measures to remove them because they have a
23 negative effect on the mood and the morale of the unit.
24 That's something entirely different. Would you agree with me
25 that that is not consistent with the earlier explanation you gave?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think, Your Honours, that it is
2 consistent, because these are events of the three months after the
3 beginning of the war. The people moved all the time, and the whole first
4 year of the civil war, people went to areas controlled by their own
6 JUDGE ORIE: But the document says something different. The
7 document says, We should take measures to move them out because they have
8 a negative effect on the mood and the morale of the units. That's
9 something different. I mean, whether right or wrong, I leave that alone.
10 But I still have difficulties in understanding how you consider this to
11 be consistent with, if I understand you well, a kind of spontaneous
12 movement of populations.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For the most part, people moved
14 spontaneously, but this specific measure shown in the act is not an
15 intention to remove the population. Instead -- I don't know how to
16 describe it. It's the beginning of the war, when that population too
17 could have been endangered by paramilitaries, by neighbours. The spiral
18 of mutual revenge and conflict was continuous in that area, especially
19 during the Second World War. It's difficult to understand for somebody
20 who is not closely associated by history to that area.
21 JUDGE ORIE: That may all be true. I was focussing on what I
22 read in this document. Do you find any support in this document for your
23 view on what may have happened?
24 MR. WEBER: And, Your Honour, to avoid any confusion, I believe
25 the witness might be looking at a different document now.
1 JUDGE ORIE: It's the document which we had on our screen, and I
2 think I quoted it almost literally a second ago. It was paragraph 3 of
3 that document. If you want to look at it again, then we'll put it on the
4 screen again.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. Could I please have
6 that document. And, if possible, could the question be more precise in
7 relation to this third paragraph.
8 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, it was 65 ter 33487, which I believe
9 has now been admitted as Exhibit P7666.
10 JUDGE ORIE: What I asked you is that the whole of your
11 explanation of people moving and what may have been the reasons, being in
12 danger, et cetera, whether you find any support for that in the text of
13 this document.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think so, if one knows in detail
15 what the situation was in that area and at this time when the civil war
17 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I'm asking you -- you have explained all
18 that. I'm asking you whether you find any support for your views in the
19 text of this document.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Indirectly, yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: And that is?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In a way which involves knowing the
23 interethnic situation on the ground and relations there. And this was
24 given rise to two or three years before the war and especially when the
25 civil war started, and already 35.000 Serbs were moved out of --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I'll look whether what you tell us now is
2 found in the text of the document, yes or no.
3 Please proceed, Mr. Weber.
4 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 14406 for
5 the witness.
6 Q. This is a Korenica SDB security service Official Note about the
7 attack on Saborsko on 12 November 1991. First of all, Plaski is located
8 just to the north of Saborsko; correct?
9 A. Yes, that is where it is located.
10 Q. The Official Note indicates that the attack included the Plaski
11 TO, Territorial Defence, and units of the JNA.
12 In the second paragraph, there's discussion of the ciscenje of
13 houses and the remaining terrain that followed the attack. The last
14 sentence of the paragraph states: "Today, the 13th of this month, we
15 have continued 'ciscenje' the remaining terrain villages and
17 Your brigade participated in this attack; correct?
18 A. That period is one month before I arrived, and I don't have any
19 precise knowledge about that.
20 Q. Okay. You agree that ciscenje of inhabitants includes civilians;
22 A. What the signatory of the document meant by that word is
23 something that I don't know. Whether he meant that forces, armed forces,
24 that were there should be driven out or whether he was referring to the
25 inhabitants, the civil population there, that is what I don't know.
1 Q. Okay. I put it to you that you were deployed to areas of Croatia
2 around the time in which villages were being ciscenje'd or inhabitants
3 were being removed from villages in the Croatian Krajina; right?
4 A. No, that's not correct. When we arrived as members of the JNA,
5 there was a precisely defined front line between the two warring parties.
6 As for all of these developments, the cleansing of the Serb and Croat
7 populations on both sides of the front line, that was already over.
8 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution tenders 65 ter 14406 into evidence.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
10 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter number 14406 receives exhibit number
11 P7667, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: P7667 is admitted into evidence.
13 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, I'm about to go into other document and
14 this is an okay time.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then we take the break first.
16 Witness, we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes. We'll resume
17 at 25 minutes to 2.00.
18 [The witness stands down]
19 --- Recess taken at 1.13 p.m.
20 --- On resuming at 1.36 p.m.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
22 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, if I can use this time to address a
23 housekeeping matter. It's with respect to D1357 marked for
24 identification. This is the manual from the United Kingdom, JSP 383.
25 The Defence was kind enough to send a full version to the Prosecution
1 yesterday evening, and the Prosecution has had the opportunity to review
2 it. We have no objection to the admission of the manual, provided that
3 the cover page and chapter 5 is what's admitted. If the Defence could
4 upload that, then we have no objection to it.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, cover page, chapter 5, is that -- oh,
6 Mr. Ivetic, yes.
7 MR. IVETIC: We will do that, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: And then once it's uploaded, you'll inform us and
9 then we'll decide on admission.
10 Please proceed, Mr. Weber.
11 [The witness takes the stand]
12 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 00743.
13 Q. Mr. Kovac, this is a 18 May 1992 2nd Military District request
14 for officers. The document is from General Mladic. You are listed as
15 the second person on the list; correct?
16 A. As far as I can see in the document, yes.
17 Q. Did you know General Mladic before May 1992?
18 A. I knew of his existence. I didn't know him personally.
19 Q. Were you still deployed in Croatia at this time?
20 A. Well, that is the period until the arrival of UNPROFOR. I don't
21 know the exact date. It is possible that I was still there or that I was
22 returning from Croatia, so that period. But in May, I did return from
24 Q. Where were you between May 1992 and the beginning of 1993?
25 A. In the institute. The Institute of warfare, that is.
1 Q. You were in Belgrade?
2 A. Yes, yes.
3 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution tenders 65 ter 743 into evidence.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Document number 743 receives exhibit number
6 P7668, Your Honours.
7 MR. IVETIC: Actually, Your Honours, if we're going to be talking
8 about the list of names, I think the list of names and ranks, at least
9 the portion relied upon, should be translated since in the English I see
10 we don't have that. We just have the generic list of 14 names and the
11 ranks without information that's being discussed by the Prosecution.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do agree with you, that it's not there, and
13 though the Chamber meanwhile thinks that it knows what a pukovnik is, for
14 example, but if it's -- of course, we'll send it for further -- we'll ask
15 the Prosecutor to send it for further translation. At the same time, if
16 it's only about Mr. Kovac which you want to deal with it, then it looks
17 as if it's artillery captain first class, which is -- that's at least how
18 I understand it. If that's it, we could perhaps save the effort. But if
19 you think it's relevant and important for us to know what the ranks of
20 all the others are, then we'll certainly invite the Prosecution to do so.
21 Mr. Ivetic, you think we should know what Mr. Risic and all the
22 others, what their ranks are?
23 MR. IVETIC: Well, I don't know. You left it saying if the
24 Prosecution wishes to rely upon it. I don't know what the Prosecution
25 wishes to rely upon.
1 JUDGE ORIE: If you only want to rely on the Mitar Kovac entry.
2 Is there anything else, Mr. Weber?
3 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, the Prosecution has tendered many
4 similar lists like this where I believe it is clear what it is. I think
5 it would fall under the category of there were many requests for lists of
6 officers from the --
7 JUDGE ORIE: So if it's --
8 MR. WEBER: -- so the quantity might be relied upon.
9 JUDGE ORIE: It's not an answer to the question. Do you want to
10 rely on the ranks of all the other persons mentioned?
11 MR. WEBER: We could possibly do that as a part of a larger group
12 of exhibits.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. So you will send it for a full translation.
14 Please proceed.
15 Oh, yes, it should be MFI-ed, Madam Registrar. You've assigned a
16 number already. Yes. That's P7668 which is now marked for
17 identification, pending translation -- I should say pending full
19 Please proceed.
20 MR. WEBER:
21 Q. Mr. Kovac, when you were deployed as part of the
22 Herzegovina Corps in 1993, you still received payments from the VJ;
24 A. In that period, yes, because I hadn't handed over my duty yet.
25 Q. At transcript page 41295, you indicated that you served as an
1 artillery officer in the VRS between January and August 1993. You were
2 in the Herzegovina Corps during Operation Mac and Operation Lukavac 93;
4 A. No. Just during Operation Lukavac 93.
5 Q. During Operation Lukavac 93, the Herzegovina Corps captured Mount
6 Treskavica, Mount Bjelasnica, and Mount Visocica; correct?
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think you should repeat the names slowly.
8 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honours.
9 Q. Mount Treskavica, Mount Bljesnica, and part of Mount Visocica.
10 This is what happened during Operation Lukavac 93, correct, from the
11 Herzegovina Corps end?
12 A. Not only the Herzegovina Corps, also acting in concert with part
13 of the forces of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps. And it's not that it was
14 taken. Rather, this territory was returned, territory that had been
15 taken by the Muslim forces a year before that, in 1992. So it liberated
16 the area that had previously been taken by the Muslim forces.
17 Q. From 1999 until 2014, the primary focus of your work pertained to
18 strategic planning and the development of national defence policies in
19 the Republic of Serbia; correct?
20 A. No. From 1999 until 2004, I was head of a department in the
21 mentioned institute, and I was involved in leading research projects that
22 are listed in the CV.
23 As from 2004 onwards, I was appointed chief of Department for
24 Strategic planning in the Ministry of Defence in the sector for defence
1 Q. Your research and publications between 1999 and 2014 related to
2 your work as a member of the Ministry of Defence and the military
3 institute in Serbia; correct?
4 A. Well, not only at the military institute. While I was at the
5 institute, yes, that is until 2004. And then after that, research work
6 was in the form of teaching at the Military Academy, later on at the
7 University of Defence. And it was carried out within projects of some of
8 the schools of Belgrade university or rather faculties of the University
9 of Belgrade.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did you say between 1999 and 2004 or 2014?
11 MR. WEBER: 2014.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: 2014. Okay. Thank you.
13 MR. WEBER: And I could have done both for the Ministry of
14 Defence and military institute.
15 Q. You mentioned your book, "History of the Art of War," and the
16 fact that there were multiple volumes. Your co-authors of this
17 publication on different volumes were Janacka Sarakovic [phoen] and
18 Bozidar Forca?
19 A. Forca.
20 Q. Correct?
21 A. Not only they. So you found these three names somewhere but
22 there were eight researchers in that period, that five-year period. Most
23 of them were involved in the first monograph that pertained to the period
24 until 1920. I had the role of project leader and I --
25 Q. If we can just continue. You've explained a lot of this already.
1 In fact, most of your articles and publications were with a group
2 of co-authors; is that correct?
3 A. No. Most of them are author publications, single-author
5 Q. You wrote an article entitled: "Military Aspects of NATO
6 Aggression on the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia" with Bozidar Forca,
7 which was published in 2000?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. This is one of the articles that you do not mention in your CV;
11 A. Well, I said that it's about 135 articles and that I had only
12 provided some of them in my CV.
13 Q. I return to your book.
14 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 33492a.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We don't have the corresponding -- yes, there it
17 MR. WEBER: Yes. Thank you very much.
18 Q. This is one of your publications concerning the History of
19 Military Arts, the one that you co-authored with Colonel Forca; correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 MR. WEBER: Could we actually please return to the first page. I
22 see it's uploaded out of order.
23 Q. One of the consulting editors on this publication was General
24 Radovan Radinovic; correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please go to page 4 in both
3 Q. This is the section of the book on military control. In the
4 first paragraph, you describe the continuous interconnected cycle in
5 which military control is exercised; correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You describe the five functions that are mutually causal and
8 continuous. They are, first, planning; second, organisation; third,
9 commanding, issuing orders; fourth, co-ordination; and, fifth, control.
10 A commander exercises military control over forces under their
11 command through the continuous performance of these functions; correct?
12 A. This is not a new classification of functions. These functions
13 of command and control go back to the classics, to the present day, so,
15 Q. In the next paragraph you discuss the role of the commander and
16 state: "The commander was considered to be the main actor in commanding
17 who had the exclusive right to make decisions and issue orders."
18 I'm just going to pause here. General Mladic, as the commander
19 of the VRS, possessed the exclusive right to make decisions and issue
20 orders; correct?
21 A. I think that are you comparing the wrong period from this book to
22 something that happened in 1990 onwards. This, from the book, is from
23 1920 until 1945. These are generalisations of theoretical and empirical
24 knowledge that primarily has to do with the Second World War.
25 Q. Doctrinally speaking, and you've described how these are very
1 well-known things, General Mladic, as the commander of the VRS, possessed
2 the exclusive right to make decisions and issue orders; right?
3 MR. IVETIC: Misstates the evidence. General Mladic was not the
4 commander of the VRS.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
6 MR. WEBER: He was appointed to the commander of the Army of
7 Republika Srpska on 12 May 1992.
8 JUDGE ORIE: That's evidence given by you at this moment, but I
9 think what Mr. Ivetic may be pointing at is that the president of the
10 Republika Srpska is the Commander-in-Chief or the supreme commander.
11 Let's not -- I mean, we know what we're talking about, more or less, and
12 that you are referring to General Mladic in his position as the --
13 MR. WEBER: Commander --
14 JUDGE ORIE: -- commander, not the Commander-in-Chief perhaps.
15 But let's -- I mean, is there any dispute about these matters? If not,
16 let's then move on.
17 MR. IVETIC: Well, Your Honours, if we're talking about a
18 military expert or trying to use expertise, being precise is important.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --
20 MR. WEBER: The witness is present and he does understand --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please rephrase your question using the right
23 MR. WEBER: Okay.
24 Q. First of all, you agree that the commander of an army has the
25 exclusive right to make decisions and issue orders; right?
1 A. That's the case in every army of the world. He has the exclusive
2 right to make decisions within his powers.
3 Q. The rest of the sentence indicates that the commander could
4 transfer part of his powers and responsibilities with respect to issuing
5 orders to his assistants, which did not exclude his liability for a
6 successful realisation of his duties. In other words, a commander can
7 delegate some duties but they are still responsible for the tasks to be
8 carried out; correct?
9 A. I would kindly ask you to separate the findings from monographs
10 until 1995 and your specific questions about General Mladic. In this
11 period, General Mladic was not born or was a child.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: The year was 1945,
13 not 1995.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is not fair to compare something
15 from the period of up to 1945.
16 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, at this time we have a lot of other
17 doctrinal stuff in. The Prosecution would just tender 65 ter 33492a into
19 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
20 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter number 33492a receives exhibit number
21 P7669, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
23 Please proceed.
24 MR. WEBER:
25 Q. Did you write the report entitled: "Report on the Command
1 Authority of General Ratko Mladic in the War in Bosnia and Herzegovina"?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did you personally author each of the paragraphs of the report?
4 A. Yes, he personally -- I personally authored it. But in the
5 footnotes, there are things that I took over from other documents and
6 expert reports, as I mentioned in the previous days.
7 Q. You're saying the contents of the report are a product of your
8 own analysis and work.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Are there any paragraphs in your report where you significantly
11 borrow text from another source without attributing either the
12 conclusions or the text to the other source?
13 A. There are no such documents. Passages are marked where they
14 contain positions taken based on some other analysis or document, and I
15 listed the expert reports that I used the most, both from the Defence
16 side and the Prosecution side.
17 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 1D05358. If
18 we could please go to page 177 of the B/C/S and page 179 of the English
19 translation. If we could please focus on paragraph 4.220.
20 Q. This is your report in this case. You discussed a number of
21 things in paragraph 4.220, including the murder of two young Sarajevans
22 on 19 May 1993. Focussing your attention on the sentence starting on the
23 third line from the bottom of the page in the B/C/S with the words "prvo
24 je na mostu smrtno pogodjen Bosko." [Phoen]
25 In the English, the sentence starts: "First Bosko was shot dead
1 on the bridge."
2 Do you see this part of the paragraph?
3 A. Yes, I see it.
4 MR. WEBER: Could I have the next page in both versions.
5 Q. You continue your discussion of the facts related to this event
6 up until the phrase "Emir prenesena na groblje Lav u Sarajevu," [phoen],
7 which is translated in the English as "the Lav cemetery in Sarajevo as
8 Emir's parents wished"; correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You do not attribute any of this information to Wikipedia, do
12 A. It's not only from Wikipedia. It's from several sources,
13 cross-referenced information, and the one that was closest to me is
14 stated in the footnote, as you can see here from the newspaper
15 Slobodna Dalmacija, Free Dalmatia.
16 MR. WEBER: Could we please leave the B/C/S version on the screen
17 and bring up 65 ter 33486 next to the report. If we could please focus
18 on the highlighted portion.
19 Q. Mr. Kovac, before you is a highlighted version of the B/C/S
20 Wikipedia page for the Romeo and Juliet murders in Sarajevo from
21 sr.wikipedia.org. Could you please focus on the highlighted part that
22 starts with the phrase "prvo je na mostu" [phoen] through the sentence
23 that ends "Lav u Sarajevu."
24 You borrowed this text from Wikipedia for your report; right?
25 A. No, from -- it's from Slobodna Dalmacija.
1 Q. Well, the only part of the text that is different from your
2 report is a single phrase, "su se obe stranje u subukobu," [phoen],
3 meaning both parties of the conflict. It appears that you have changed
4 this phrase to "su se Srbi i Muslimani," [phoen], which is translated as
5 "while Serbs and Muslims." That's the only difference between this
6 Wikipedia text and the text in your report; correct?
7 A. It's a paraphrase of the text based on the source of Slobodna
8 Dalmacija, as stated in the footnote.
9 Q. Okay. Well, the one source that's actually cited in this
10 Wikipedia page is from Mr. Emin Garaplija and the same interview
11 publication which you have in footnote 484 of paragraph 4.220. The
12 Wikipedia page is where you got your source; right?
13 A. No, that's not right. It's the newspaper Slobodna Dalmacija.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, have you checked the Slobodna Dalmacija
16 MR. WEBER: I am aware of it but I see that it's also listed
17 right here on --
18 JUDGE ORIE: But you are more or less suggesting to the witness
19 that he copied it from Wikipedia. There is, of course, a possibility -
20 and that's the reason why I'm asking you - that Wikipedia has copied from
21 Slobodna Dalmacija which then might result in the same text to be found
22 on Wikipedia compared to what is found in the witness's report. Have you
23 considered that, and would you please in the following questions or
24 perhaps tomorrow pay attention that it's a possibility as well.
25 MR. WEBER: Very well.
1 JUDGE ORIE: You have considered it?
2 MR. WEBER: I am aware of the source. I will, of course, proceed
3 accordingly tomorrow.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: One other observation. The footnote should be
7 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Q. Are you aware that Mr. Garaplija has made a variety of claims
9 after his 1997 conviction for maltreating Nedzad Herenda, and do you
10 realise these theories or many of these claims have been rejected by
11 courts in Bosnia, including the Human Rights Chamber of
13 A. I've read many texts, both from the press and monographs related
14 to this case, and I formed my own opinion based on all that information.
15 Q. Okay. Are you aware that his claims have been rejected by courts
16 in Bosnia?
17 A. No, I didn't know that.
18 Q. Did you review all of the source materials referenced in the
19 footnotes of your report?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Just to finish off today with a couple of general questions.
22 You stated that you had a talk with Nenad Petrusic about the
23 scope of your work and the material that is available for your report.
24 What specifically did you understand the scope of your report to be?
25 A. Well, I did not think of the physical scope. I thought more
1 about the structure of the report that should cover the key issues
2 related to the civil war in Bosnia-Herzegovina and primarily in the
3 territory of the Sarajevo theatre of war and the protected areas of
4 Srebrenica and Zepa.
5 Q. Okay. In our review of the source materials referenced in your
6 report, we found that you often appeared to have drawn upon the analysis
7 of Radovan Radinovic. We see that -- we counted up that General
8 Radinovic is the most commonly referenced source in your report, and
9 there appears to be at least 84 references to his previous reports;
10 correct? He is the most commonly referred to person in your report;
12 A. Most frequently I referred to that one, but I referred also to
13 Butler, Butler's reports. Mostly I used General Radinovic, and that's
15 Q. In comparing your report and General Radinovic's reports, we
16 appear to find a significant number of paragraphs where the text,
17 conclusions and analysis were substantially similar or the same as
18 General Radinovic's but where there were no references to one of General
19 Radinovic's reports.
20 Mr. Kovac, with the Chamber's permission, I'm going to hand you a
21 document that lists some examples of overlapping paragraphs where it is
22 not apparent to us that you cite General Radinovic. I have courtesy
23 copies for the Chamber and the Defence. And just if we could describe it
24 quickly. Each one on the list contains entries with paragraph numbers
25 from your report and paragraph numbers from one of General Radinovic's
1 reports. I also have available B/C/S hard copies of General Radinovic's
2 reports so you can compare them to your report.
3 MR. WEBER: Again, with Your Honours' leave, after court today,
4 I'd like to give the witness the four binders of the reports and ask the
5 witness to compare the listed paragraphs from his report to the
6 corresponding paragraphs from General Radinovic's reports. I can then
7 ask further questions once the witness has looked at this.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, the binders of which reports, of the
9 Radinovic's reports?
10 MR. WEBER: They are the -- the four binders each contain the
11 separate Radinovic reports in each one and they are listed on the -- and
12 they're provided on the list.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Before we ask the witness to do a lot of
14 homework, Mr. Weber apparently puts it to you that you many, many
15 portions of your report are similar in text with the Radinovic's reports
16 without a reference to those reports. Do you agree with that, or do you
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not talking in advance about
19 any specific paragraph or passage. I'll first have to consult this. But
20 wherever I explicitly expressed positions identical to the analysis of
21 General Radinovic, I referred to the source and provided a footnote.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The issue, however, is - and that's apparently
23 what Mr. Weber puts to you - that where you do not perhaps explicitly
24 express positions which -- but that you adopt more or less the text as we
25 find it in these other reports, without a clear reference to the
1 Radinovic's reports.
2 Do you allow for the possibility that you have done that in so
3 many instances? And briefly counting, I think we're talking about some
4 30 or more paragraphs.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's possible that where a footnote
6 is given, it relates to two or three paragraphs, especially if they were
7 reformulated or commented in my own way because it's the same substance,
8 the same event, the same documents.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, you're putting this to the witness.
10 You're apparently tried to analyse it. Are we talking about similar
11 language? Are we talking about 90, 95 per cent of the words the same?
12 Are we talking about 40 per cent? Or 70 per cent? Could you give us an
13 impression as --
14 MR. WEBER: I would say over 75 per cent of the words.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Of the words. Then we are talking verbatim about
16 the words used in the same order.
17 MR. WEBER: Substantially the same, yeah.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Witness for 30 or more paragraphs as listed
19 here, would you agree that your text would, for 75 per cent, be verbatim,
20 the same, as the Radinovic reports where you have not footnoted
21 Mr. Radinovic's report or reports?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The source is stated in the way
23 that I said. If the paragraphs were reformulated and expressed in my own
24 way, then there is no footnote. And in the sense of value --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Even if 75 per cent of the text remains identical to
1 the one in Mr. Radinovic's report?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't see a problem if even
3 that percentage is true, if the same words were used, considering that
4 it's the same event.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I was not asking whether you see a problem in
6 it. I'm just trying to just establish what we are talking about.
7 Are you willing to compare it and to see whether you agree that
8 for those paragraphs, that substantially the same text is used as by
9 Mr. Radinovic? Are you willing to compare that overnight so that we hear
10 from you tomorrow?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I will compare them. I said
12 at the outset that that analysis and Butler's analysis were the primary
13 sources I used.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Have you similarly quoted? That means used the same
15 words from the Butler reports as well in a similar way; that is, 75
16 per cent of a paragraph using the same words as we find them in
17 Mr. Butler's report?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When a passage or a paragraph was
19 cited, it could have been the same, 40, 50 or 70 per cent. The substance
20 was expressed in the same way and a footnote was provided.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And also without a footnote? Because I do
22 understand that Mr. Weber is pointing at those paragraphs where, quite
23 substantially, text is the same as in the Radinovic report but without a
24 footnote. Have you similarly adopted major parts of the text of
25 Mr. Butler's reports without footnoting?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Footnotes were given and even
2 my comment was added, or a clarification of that paragraph.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Then you're invited to work overnight on --
4 Mr. Ivetic, would you still want to have a look at the binders
5 before they are given to Mr. Kovac?
6 MR. IVETIC: I would, especially since I'm surprised that they
7 cover four binders. That doesn't --
8 JUDGE ORIE: May I take it that the parties will look at the
9 binders and see whether there's any disagreement on that, and once
10 they've done so, that it be given to the VWS so as to provide them to the
12 MR. IVETIC: I'm prepared to do that, yes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, Witness, you'll later receive the
14 binders with the reports of Mr. Radinovic, and you're invited to compare
15 on the basis of this list whether, indeed, you have adopted a large
16 portion, and you heard Mr. Weber talking about some 75 per cent minimal,
17 of his text in your report without a specific footnote in that
18 paragraph to the Radinovic reports.
19 If you'd like -- if you'd do that, we would appreciate to hear
20 from you tomorrow. Because we'll adjourn for the day, and we will resume
21 tomorrow, Wednesday, the 18th of November, though we do not need you
22 right in the beginning because we'll first hear the evidence of another
23 witness, which most likely takes approximately one hour and a half, I
24 think. Mr. Lukic? Mr. Ivetic? I don't know who to address because we
25 have a videolink tomorrow.
1 MR. LUKIC: In the conversation with the Prosecution, we think
2 that we might finish tomorrow's first witness in the first session.
3 JUDGE ORIE: You mean the Defence or the whole of the testimony?
4 MR. LUKIC: The whole of the testimony.
5 JUDGE ORIE: The whole of the testimony.
6 Then could you please take care that you are standing by here in
7 this building from quarter to 11.00. That would -- and I again instruct
8 you that you should not speak or communicate with whomever about your
9 testimony, whether already given or still to be given.
10 If that's all clear to you, you may follow the usher.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's all clear. Thank you.
12 [The witness stands down]
13 JUDGE ORIE: We adjourn for the day, and with our apologies to
14 those assisting us going beyond the time, we resume tomorrow, Wednesday,
15 the 18th of November, 2015, 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom,
17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.25 p.m.,
18 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 18th day of
19 November, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.