1 Wednesday, 25 November 2015
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
9 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
11 The Chamber was informed that the Defence had one preliminary
12 matter to raise.
13 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honours. Yesterday Your Honours had asked
14 for assistance to locate the particular Article 60 of the
15 Geneva Conventions that was the subject of the discussion as to the --
16 self-defence upon being attacked. We have two witnesses who have
17 provided evidence as to that. The first is GRM097 at transcript page
18 40083 -- pardon me, 40085, line 13, through 40086, line 25. And the
19 second is the witness we have today, the expert, Mr. Kovac, in his expert
20 report, 1D5358, page 189, paragraph 5.2 of the same, where it is
21 described as Article 60 of Chapter V under the heading: "Localities and
22 zones under special protection" of the protocol additional to the
23 Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949. And Mr. Kovac specifically
24 references paragraph 7 of Article 6 [sic] of this protocol.
25 Thank you.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, which is not about self-defence primarily but
2 not indeed as the self-defence as understood in Article 51 of the UN
3 Charter. That's a different kind of a --
4 MR. IVETIC: Exactly.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I better understand now what you were
6 referring to. That's ...
7 Yes. Thank you for that information, Mr. Ivetic.
8 I'd like to briefly move into private session before we re-start
9 with Witness Kovac.
10 [Private session]
23 [Open session]
24 THE REGISTRAR: We're now in open session, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
1 Could the witness be escorted in the courtroom.
2 [The witness takes the stand]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Welcome back in court, Mr. Kovac. It takes a while
4 to get in and out. We regret that, but we were unable to change it.
5 We'd rather would have preferred to hear your evidence in one flow,
6 but --
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: -- we hope to conclude today. Perhaps needless to
9 remind you, but I still have to do, to remind you that you're still bound
10 by the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your
12 Mr. McCloskey will now continue his cross-examination.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning. Good
14 morning, everyone.
15 WITNESS: MITAR KOVAC [Resumed]
16 [Witness answered through interpreter]
17 Cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey: [Continued]
18 Q. And good morning, General.
19 A. Good morning.
20 Q. As you know, we're continuing the Prosecution cross-examination
21 as the -- as Mr. President told you, and you haven't had a chance to
22 answer my questions as yet. But hopefully if you listen to the question
23 and answer briefly, we'll be able to all leave in a short time.
24 Mr. Ivetic spoke to you in direct examination and you answered
25 questions briefly about the time-period that General Mladic was outside
1 the RS and the rules related to whether a person would take over command
2 or not. Let me read you the question that Mr. Ivetic gave you and your
3 answer, and then I'll ask you a couple of questions on this point. And
4 this was at page 41393 of the transcript, and the question by Mr. Ivetic
6 "And by operation of the rules, of regulations, who would be that
7 someone on the ground who commands when the commander is away?"
8 And your answer:
9 "In this specific case, there was no obligation for the commander
10 of the Main Staff to be present constantly. His second-in-command is the
11 Chief of Staff, General Milovanovic in this instant case, who was dealing
12 with problems in the western part of the theatre of war, in Krajina, in
13 the area of operation of the 1st and 2nd Corps, because there was already
14 intelligence that the Croatian army and the BiH army were planning an
15 incursion into the area of the VRS. Documents were signed by
16 General Gvero when Mladic was absent. According to the rules, it was
17 possible for a member of the command, the eldest officer in a certain
18 area, to represent the Main Staff, and I believe in this case that's what
20 Now, from your study of the materials, what dates after the fall
21 of Srebrenica was Mladic absent from the RS?
22 A. Judging by the documents that I analysed, it was 14 to 17 July.
23 Q. And were you aware of the agreement between the Prosecution and
24 the Defence that General Mladic crossed over into Serbia the afternoon of
25 14 July from the Zvornik area?
1 A. I didn't know exactly about which crossing it was because it
2 wasn't relevant to me, but it was the period that was relevant.
3 Q. And you mention in your testimony that documents were signed by
4 General Gvero when Mladic was absent. What documents were signed by
5 General Gvero on the 14th, 15th, and 16th of July? You don't have any in
6 your report.
7 A. I mentioned two documents. One of the documents, I think, is
8 referenced in the report, and it relates to the treatment of prisoners
9 and the need for increased security measures in the zone through which
10 the column from Srebrenica was trying to break through and search of the
11 terrain. That document was of 13 July, if I remember well.
12 Q. Yes, I agree, it was the 13th of July. But that was not the
13 period that General Mladic was out of the RS, was it?
14 A. No. But he must have been outside of that zone because I don't
15 see otherwise why General Gvero would have signed this document on the
16 13th. I think already on the 13th, Gvero was the most senior officer
17 from the Main Staff in the protected areas of Srebrenica and Zepa.
18 Q. Did you learn from your study of the documents that not only was
19 General Milovanovic in the Krajina, but General Tolimir was in Zepa and
20 General Gvero was at the Main Staff headquarters in Han Pijesak on the
21 13th of July? You agree?
22 A. Yes, yes.
23 Q. And did you learn from studies of your materials that on the
24 13th of July that General Mladic was with his troops on the ground in and
25 around the Bratunac area, the Sandici meadow area, the Nova Kasaba area,
1 and on the evening of the 13th of July in the Vlasenica command post?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And on the 13th of July at the Vlasenica command post,
4 General Mladic held a small ceremony and -- where he announced that
5 General Krstic was now the commander of the Drina Corps and
6 General Zivanovic was not. Did you learn that as well?
7 A. Yes. Now this question of the ceremony, it was the usual way of
8 imparting information during military operations to say that somebody
9 else took over the duties of the corps commander.
10 Q. Yes. And did you -- were you able to watch the testimony or read
11 the testimony of Richard Butler, one of the Prosecution military experts,
12 in this case?
13 A. Yes, I did.
14 Q. And did you read the part of the testimony where he went over
15 documents in Mladic's name and orders from General Mladic on the 14th and
16 15th of July?
17 A. Yes, I did.
18 Q. All right. Let's go on to another topic.
19 I want to ask you about some parts of your report, which we'll
20 recall is 65 ter 1D5358, which I hope to be able to refer to as "the
21 report" after that. And if we could go to page 238 in the English and
22 page 235 in the B/C/S, and I want to draw your attention to some parts
23 that are in your paragraph 5.162. You'll see it come up on the board.
24 And you'll note that right after your underlined part at 5.162, you say:
25 "After the commission of the crimes against captured members of
1 the 28th ABH Division, the Muslim leadership ..." and you go on.
2 Well, I now want to skip a few lines but you can go ahead and
3 read those to yourself, the following lines, as we go down, and start
4 with about the last third of the paragraph. And I think you're going
5 to -- we're going to have to go to page 236 in the B/C/S so you can read
7 You note, and I believe you're referring to the crime against
8 captured members of the 28th Division as you begin this:
9 "This crime had not been planned by the political and military
10 leadership of Republika Srpska. It was probably designed in order for
11 the media to prepare the international community and public to accept the
12 consequences of the operations executed by the Croatian army, the ARBH
13 and the HVO, with NATO air, intelligence and logistics support, in which
14 ethnic cleansing and crimes in the area of Republic of Serbian Krajina in
15 Croatia were committed as well as in the western part of Republika Srpska
16 in BH, when about 2300 soldiers and civilians were killed and over
17 220.000 people expelled from their homes. The international public
18 neither saw or heard of these crimes, for the crime in Srebrenica was a
19 screen for continuing the genocide against the Serbian people in Croatia
20 and BH which started in the Ustasha NDH and continued in the final
21 operations in the civil war in 1995."
22 Now, you say in this thesis, manifesto maybe, that the crimes,
23 "it was probably designed in order for the media to prepare ..." Tell
24 us, what has your investigations --
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. Ivetic.
1 MR. IVETIC: I'm waiting for the question to be completed, but if
2 counsel said he is going to refer to it as "the report" and now he's
3 referred to it as "the thesis" and "the manifesto," we're -- instead of
4 making things more simplified, we're making it more complicated.
5 JUDGE ORIE: It is -- Mr. McCloskey was quoting the report and
6 added some comment which is perhaps not needed, but let's wait for your
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's the Prosecution's view that this is a
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's fine. It wasn't a question. Of
11 course, unless you want to ask now whether this is a thesis or not, and,
12 of course, such a discussion will end in nothing. It is to some extent
13 argument. Apart from that, it's all probability the expert describes.
14 But you'd like to know what the basis is for this assessment of the
15 probability, because that seemed to be your question.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Well, I'm getting into all these -- I'm trying to
17 get into all these but I can make it simpler.
18 Q. Sir, in your study of these materials, can you tell us who do you
19 think it was or what was it that was the designer of this thing that you
20 described? You say "it was probably designed in order for the media,"
21 you're referring to the crimes in Srebrenica. Who do you think designed
22 this, if it wasn't the Republika Srpska leaders or the VRS?
23 A. Well, first of all, I have to note that there can be no mention
24 of any thesis or manifest or a subjective view. The numbers given in
25 this very paragraph are historical facts, and that's why I did not
1 further explain them.
2 As for the specific answer to your question, while studying the
3 activities of various actors or factors that exerted influence on the
4 occurrence of the crime in Srebrenica, I recognised three distinct
5 players. One is part of the international community; second, the
6 leadership of the Muslims in Sarajevo, both political and military; and,
7 three, the military and political leadership of Serbia. All these
8 players had a direct impact on the positions that I expressed relative to
9 the operation in Srebrenica.
10 I believe that this crime towards the end of the war was the
11 least necessary to the military and political leadership of the Serbs.
12 Unfortunately, following some decisions after the entry into Srebrenica,
13 this crime unfortunately occurred. I will remind you of the discussions
14 of General Morillon at that time with the Serbian President Milosevic,
15 when he said that it shouldn't be allowed for Serbs to enter --
16 Q. Excuse me, sir. Excuse me, sir, we know that there were
17 international and other forces involved. What you say here is that
18 it's -- the crime was not designed by RS and the VRS. You say it was
19 probably designed in order to do something or other. Who do you think
20 probably designed it if it's not the Serbs, it's not the Serb army or the
21 Serb civilian structures.
22 A. I think a great part of the impact on the events in Srebrenica
23 towards -- through the Muslim and Serb leaderships was exerted by part of
24 the structures of the international community, and that the decisions
25 both in Sarajevo as well as the decisions of Bosnian Serbs were
1 unreasonable and irrational. Among the Serbian political leadership --
2 Q. Okay, sir, it was a simple question. I'll go on to another
4 Let's stay on your report. Let's go to page 184 in the English
5 and page 182 in the B/C/S. And let's look at paragraph 5.4. Why don't
6 you read that a bit to yourself for a minute. But what I want to read
7 out and ask you about are the last about six lines of this paragraph.
8 And that section is -- is this:
9 "When all these major issues are reviewed, it is possible to
10 speak more objectively about whether command responsibility attaches to
11 General ... Mladic for the crimes that happened, or whether those crimes
12 happened according to someone else's plan, drawing on ethnic hatred and
13 the vast revenge potential and using mercenaries at the recommendation of
14 those who steered the war in BH and who needed the tragedy in Srebrenica
15 to ethnically cleanse and expel Serbs from the Republic of Serbian
16 Krajina and from the western part of Republika Srpska."
17 So here again, sir, you pose in a question whether these crimes
18 happened according to someone else's plan. Who -- whose plan? Who's the
19 "someone else" besides the -- General Mladic, the VRS, or the RS
21 A. In several places in my report, it is indicated - and I just
22 started to say that a moment ago when I was interrupted - as to who else
23 was involved in this. Over the past few years, we've heard --
24 Q. Excuse me, sir --
25 A. -- several testimonies by --
1 Q. That's not my question. That's not my question. We've heard a
2 lot about people being involved in this. Whose plan was it, if you know?
3 You referred to someone else's plan not the RS. Who else planned it, if
4 you know? If you don't know, no problem.
5 A. Well, I know. I know. But I am not allowed to finish.
6 Q. You can tell us who -- who planned and you can explain your
7 answer but you need to answer the question first.
8 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I object to this manner of badgering
9 the witness by Mr. McCloskey. If you look at the answer that was started
10 to given by the witness, he's talking about who's involved in the
11 planning, and Mr. McCloskey interrupts him and says: Answer my question.
12 He is twice now tried to answer the question and has been interrupted.
13 If Mr. McCloskey does not want this evidence, that shouldn't be -- he
14 shouldn't be allowed to badger the witness as if he is not answering the
15 question when he is trying to.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, when you said that the witness said --
17 started his answer by saying who was involved in the planning, he said
18 who was involved which is not necessarily at the planning.
19 MR. IVETIC: I beg to differ. He says "involved in this." If
20 the question is related --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. -- Mr. --
22 MR. IVETIC: -- planning and it says "involved in this," it's
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, you're interrupting me which you're
25 supposed not to do. It was just the first sentence of what I wanted to
2 Witness, if you would first tell us who it was or who they were
3 to whom you referred as someone else's plan, and then explain - and that
4 may even be the follow-up question - why you think that it was them that
5 planned rather than, as you said, someone who is charged?
6 Could you please tell us who it is, or who they are?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in the report I
8 presented the findings that pertained to these people. Primarily on the
9 basis of the statements of Alija Izetbegovic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. You say on whose authority. Who are you
11 referring to? You said: "I presented the findings that pertain to these
13 Please tell us who "these people" are. That's the question.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Specifically it is a quotation, an
15 interview of a journalist with Alija Izetbegovic, and he mentions that he
16 spoke to Clinton --
17 JUDGE ORIE: I'll stop you -- stop you there. Do you want to say
18 that it is Mr. Izetbegovic who was the one or one of those who planned
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One of the participants -- no, not
21 planned the crime, no. No. Let's be clear. Planned the departure from
23 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I think we were talking about the crimes,
24 but -- so it was Mr. Izetbegovic. Any other person?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And his conversation with Clinton.
1 And also presenting the results of his conversation and --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it's not -- I'm not asking about
3 conversations. I'm asking who that other person is. Do I understand you
4 that you deduced from that conversation that Mr. Clinton was one of the
5 other planners?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not of the crime. The operation,
7 yes, the operation in the sense of departing from the area of Srebrenica
8 and the safe area. One of the witnesses in that respect is the chief of
9 the SUP or MUP in the municipality of Srebrenica, Mr. Meholjic, and I
10 present his reports and I reviewed a great deal of material where he
11 precisely says what President Izetbegovic told him as far back as 1993 in
12 Sarajevo. And the agreement to exchange -- okay.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. -- you're now moving away from the question
14 because what was read to you was about responsibility for the crimes.
15 That was the portion that was read to you from page 182 of your report,
16 and you're now moving away from it and saying, well, others were
17 responsible for -- for what may have happened or withdrawal or whatever.
18 But you're talking about crimes in page 182, and I think that
19 Mr. McCloskey is focusing on who you consider to be responsible for the
20 planning of those crimes.
21 Now, you've mentioned two names: Izetbegovic, Clinton. And
22 you've also said that those you consider not to be responsible for the
23 crimes but for whatever they did in relation to Srebrenica. Do you have
24 names of those you consider to be responsible for the planning of the
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, everything I said
2 previously does not pertain to the planning of crimes. Or participation.
3 I mean, I'm directly --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Fine. Okay, fine. The question was focusing on
5 where you wrote:
6 "... or whether those crimes happened according to someone else's
7 plan," that is, someone else having a plan that those crimes will be
9 But I do now understand that the persons you mentioned, that you
10 don't consider them to be responsible for the planning of the crimes, the
11 planning which resulted in the crimes. My question is: Do you have any
12 other names? If so, please tell them; if not, I'll invite Mr. McCloskey
13 to move on.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that at this top level
15 nobody planned crimes directly, a strategic level, neither in
16 Republika Srpska or --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that wasn't the question, as a matter of fact.
18 But, Mr. McCloskey, please move on.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
20 Q. Sir, this part of read out to you, it's not footnoted. You noted
21 earlier with Mr. Weber that much of your material came from General
22 Radinovic. Are you getting the ideas expressed or the statements
23 expressed in what I read out from Radinovic or is -- from General
24 Radinovic, or is this a result of your own thought?
25 A. On the basis of the entire material analysed, these are the
1 results or conclusions of my research.
2 Q. Did that include General Radinovic's work for this particular
4 A. As for this particular position, I did not see any conclusions of
5 his to that effect.
6 Q. All right.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's go now to 1D06016, page 66 in the English,
8 page 68 in the B/C/S, and this is a report that General Radinovic made
9 for the Krstic Defence in the year 2000.
10 Q. And just to remind us of what we previously saw in your report
11 you said:
12 "... drawing on ethnic hatred and the vast revenge potential and
13 using mercenaries at the recommendation of those who steered the war in
14 the BH."
15 So I want to ask you about mercenaries a bit. Because we see
16 here in the -- in this paragraph and I'll start reading where it says
17 "Goran Matic."
18 JUDGE ORIE: That is where, Mr. McCloskey?
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's the fifth line down in the English and it is
20 B/C/S page 68. It's 4.3 paragraph. And we see it really -- yeah, right
21 there. They've found it - thank you - in the middle of the page, the
22 cursor found it. But, of course, the witness can take a little extra
23 time to read the whole 4.3 so he can put it in context. If -- though I'm
24 not really sure it needs to be, from my perspective.
25 Q. So here General Radinovic says:
1 "Goran Matic, the federal Republic of Yugoslavia information
2 minister, talked about the massacre of Muslim civilians at a press
3 conference when giving information about results of the investigation
4 conducted against ... Pauk (Spider) group. That group consisted of paid
5 Croats, Slovenes, Muslims, and Serbs."
6 Now General Radinovic goes on to say:
7 "French intelligence service organised, equipped, and trained the
8 group to perform the massacre on [sic] Muslim civilians with the aim of
9 attributing that crime to the Serbs and declaring the Serb military and
10 political strategy to be criminal and the Republika Srpska as a political
11 result of a world crime. After that scenario, all violence against the
12 Serbs became legitimate."
13 Now simple question. In your previous paragraph, you refer to
14 mercenaries. Are these the mercenaries that you're referring to?
15 A. Not only they. Skorpions, mercenaries, the crime they committed
16 against prisoners in Srebrenica, a regular, normal Serb soldier would
17 never do anything like that; that is to say, shooting prisoners in the
18 back and recording that. That is preparing and documenting crimes and
19 that can only be done by mercenaries for a lot of money.
20 Q. So you find these -- this statement of General Radinovic credible
21 that I just read out?
22 A. I'm not talking about that group only. I've just mentioned the
23 Skorpions, primarily. In my view, this is a paramilitary group that was
24 not under military control. I actually spoke about the example of a
25 crime that could be committed only by mercenaries.
1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could all other
2 microphones be switched off when the witness is speaking. Thank you.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY:
4 Q. Okay. So you do find this credible but you want to add to it
5 people like the Skorpions and others?
6 A. I'm talking about principled conduct. An individual paramilitary
7 organisation or mercenaries, I cannot speak about that in detail. But I
8 have mentioned an example of something that I studied to a greater
9 extent. That's the Skorpions.
10 Q. Simple question: Is Radinovic's statement credible?
11 A. I don't know. Maybe there's a problem with interpretation. In
12 what sense do you mean "credible".
13 Q. I think we can go on.
14 Let's go to your report at page 232 in the English, page 230 in
15 the B/C/S. It's paragraph 5.143. And you do in your report talk
16 repeatedly about people that you believe are responsible for the killings
17 on the ground, and the part I would read to you is:
18 "The mass crimes of executing the prisoners were probably
19 committed by self-organised paramilitary groups from Podrinje, coming
20 from pre-war criminal milieus, as well as by groups of 'avengers,' whose
21 family members had been killed during the war by members of the
22 28th ABH Division. They probably committed these crimes in co-operation
23 with some officers from security structures or even on the recommendation
24 and under the influence of external factors which had an impact on the
25 course of the development of the war [sic] in the BH."
1 Okay. These avengers that were -- and these self-organised
2 paramilitaries, what has your investigation revealed? What sort -- who
3 did they have co-operation with? You say you think they had
4 co-operations with some officers from the security structures. Which
5 officers from the security structures did these groups that
7 A. What I saw in the documents is the link between what happened on
8 the ground and the members of the security service, part of the units of
9 the military police, and parts of -- or, rather, units from the
10 Drina Corps. But the co-ordination of all those developments went
11 through this security structure and the distribution of prisoners in the
12 area of the Zvornik Brigade. So I'm referring specifically to the
13 officers of the security organ, starting with the security organ of the
14 Drina Corps to the security organ of the Zvornik Brigade, as the persons
15 that are most frequently mentioned in these documents.
16 Q. And how about the security organ of the Main Staff? Did you find
17 that in your analysis?
18 A. Yes. Yes, yes. Yes, mentioned in the report, yes.
19 Q. So was it fair to say you believe that the security organ of the
20 Main Staff, the security organ of the Drina Corps, and the security organ
21 of the Zvornik Brigade co-operated on the ground with those that
22 summarily executed the prisoners?
23 A. I don't know in what sense, co-operated. But that they were
24 involved in this entire endeavour of transferring prisoners, yes.
25 Primarily the organs of security of the corps and the Zvornik Brigade.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're saying that you don't know in what sense to
2 co-operate. Is it not in the sense of co-operation as you have used the
3 word in this paragraph?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, in co-operation with an
5 exchange of information concerning prisoners, yes.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah, you don't define it in the paragraph. You
7 just say "co-operation." And I suppose that's how the question is also
9 Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
11 Q. Well, tell us. Who are the security officers of the Main Staff
12 that were involved in this co-operation with the people involved in the
14 A. Well, Colonel Beara, I think, from the level of the General
16 Q. From the Glavni Stab, the Main Staff?
17 A. Yes, the Main Staff, yes.
18 Q. And who was the Drina Corps security organ person that was
19 involved with the same co-ordination?
20 A. Lieutenant-Colonel ... right now I simply cannot remember his
21 last name. But I remember his rank. It was that of a
23 Q. Vujadin Popovic?
24 A. Yes, yes. Thank you for your assistance. Yes. Vujadin Popovic.
25 Q. And the Zvornik Brigade security officer, Drago Nikolic?
1 A. Yes, captain.
2 Q. And Vujadin Popovic's superior officer and commander was
3 General Krstic?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And Colonel Beara's immediate superior was General Tolimir?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And Colonel Beara's commander was Commander Ratko Mladic?
8 A. Not directly.
9 Q. He was his commander, was he not?
10 A. Not directly. There was not a direct chain of command involved.
11 It was through General Tolimir.
12 Q. Okay. And these security organs played a significant role in the
13 murders, would you say?
14 A. Well, how big was the role played by each and every one of them,
15 I cannot say. I cannot say that it was the chief of security of the
16 Drina Corps or the Zvornik Brigade is responsible for the crime committed
17 against prisoners in such a place or such a place, but they are the ones
18 that most often appear in documents. That is the case, yes.
19 Q. Sir, I think you know, but we're not asking you to give us a
20 numerical count of how often people appear in documents. We're getting
21 your opinion that these security officers were involved in the conduct of
22 the crimes that were carried out. They helped co-ordinate with the
23 people; correct?
24 A. In a way, yes, but they are the ones that were responsible in
25 terms of competence; that is to say, how prisoners of war should be
2 Q. Okay. Let's go to your -- another part of your report. It's
3 page 228 in the English and 226 in the B/C/S. It's under 5.134. And I
4 want to start -- it's about seven lines up from the bottom of 5.134, but
5 take a look at the whole 5.134 so you can get a feel for it.
6 And on this -- I think on the subject matter we've been talking
7 about you say:
8 "It is obvious that the decision to transport the prisoners from
9 Bratunac to the area of the Zvornik Brigade could not have involved
10 anyone from the Zvornik Brigade command. Only the security organs of the
11 superior commands of the Drina Corps and the VRS Main Staff could have
12 decided that."
13 So when -- as the Court had seen in this case that when busloads
14 of Muslims were transported on the evening of 13 July from Bratunac to
15 the school at Orahovac near Zvornik, and many, many hundreds, in fact,
16 thousands were transported from Bratunac to schools around Zvornik area
17 on the 14th of July, you're concluding here that only the -- Beara and
18 Popovic could have decided that?
19 A. I found only that communication in documents.
20 Q. So do you think they're the ones that played a role in that -- in
21 that movement of prisoners, Beara and Popovic? Or do you -- are you just
22 telling us what's in -- what documents show again?
23 A. No, they made the decision for the transfer of prisoners, and it
24 was an unreasonable decision. And the commander of the Zvornik Brigade
25 says that in his interim report.
1 Q. So are you suggesting that Colonel Ljubisa Beara is acting
2 unknown to General Mladic and not under General Mladic's orders? Is that
3 what you're suggesting?
4 A. Yes, I think that that is the case. Because these are questions
5 that have to do with putting up prisoners and, unfortunately, it was done
6 the wrong way.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: I believe it's break time.
9 JUDGE ORIE: It is.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: I just have one question in relation to this
12 If it was not under the direction of General Mladic, are you
13 aware of any disciplinary measures that Mr. Mladic may have taken against
14 these two people?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that, but that was after
16 finding out, after getting information about the crime, when it was still
17 fresh, probably in August, when other events put distance between that
18 period and Srebrenica. And, of course, I know that he has disciplinary
19 jurisdiction. He could have taken disciplinary measures. But these
20 offences are criminal offences, and that's not something that belongs
21 under command responsibility and the chain of command. Except to
22 initiate proceedings.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'll follow up after break.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Before we take that break, I think the parties
25 have received some work product of this witness. I think we had asked
1 you to bring military documents you -- you referred to that and you said
2 you had available. Now, what was delivered through the intermediary of
3 the Victims and Witness Section, I couldn't read it, I haven't even tried
4 to read it, but at first glance, it didn't look that much as a military
6 I decided that it would be made available to the parties so that
7 they could do with it whatever they wished to do with it. There is a
8 copy without a translation in the hands of Chamber's staff and we're
9 not -- at this moment I think we don't have anyone who can read the
10 language. So we just have it there and wait and see what the parties
11 will do with it.
12 Mr. Weber.
13 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, that's understood, your communication.
14 With respect to the document, though, the Prosecution doesn't view it as
15 responsive to just the information and list that was requested. In our
16 brief review of it and attempted review with the translation, it appears
17 to be a further analysis now citing some things. So that was just would
18 be our position right now. We don't have a full translation available to
19 obviously appropriately appreciate it.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, any further comments on it?
21 MR. IVETIC: Well, Your Honours the footnote number 1 is a book
22 by a BiH military commander that he is citing to and I believe that the
23 figures come from the book. I have not had a chance to locate the book
24 to check, but it would appear that the witness is attempting to show
25 where some of this information comes from. But it --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but --
2 MR. IVETIC: -- may not be all-inclusive.
3 JUDGE ORIE: I think he said he had military documents or a
4 military document available which he could provide and it -- I do
5 understand from you now that there is a footnote that may refer to any
6 document but what was provided is not a military document or military
7 documents in itself.
8 MR. IVETIC: Correct. It's a reference to.
9 JUDGE ORIE: And I think, Witness, that's what you said you had
10 available, a military document or military documents, and we just
11 established at this moment that the parties consider what you provided is
12 not a military document or military documents you referred to.
13 I leave to that at this moment.
14 We'll take a break, and we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes.
15 [The witness stands down]
16 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at five minutes to 11.00.
17 --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.
18 --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, I'd like to briefly deal with
20 the testimony anticipated of Mr. Stankovic on, if I could say so, Dunjic
22 The Chamber would like to have it very clear now what -- where we
23 are and put that on the record. Where we are is what apparently the
24 parties have -- an approach the parties have agreed upon in relation to
25 Mr. Stankovic's role with regard to the Dunjic expert report.
1 We do understand that the Dunjic expert report will not and is
2 not tendered pursuant to Rule 94 bis (C). Instead, Mr. Stankovic will
3 annotate the Dunjic report. The thus annotated Dunjic report will then
4 be tendered as Mr. Stankovic's expert report.
5 As Mr. Stankovic has not yet been recognised as an expert by the
6 Chamber, the Chamber expects the Defence to follow the procedure of
7 Rule 94 bis, including filing the annotated report, and the Chamber
8 instructs the Defence to include updates on Mr. Stankovic's progress in
9 relation to the Dunjic report in its weekly updates.
10 Has this Chamber well understood what approach the parties agreed
12 And meanwhile, I think the witness can be escorted in the
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, and I -- that does reflect what
15 the Prosecution would like to agree on. Because of the busyness of
16 everyone that's what we were talking, but I do think we need to hear from
17 the Defence.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic.
19 MR. IVETIC: I think I could safely say that is what we will do.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then that's agreed. That's hereby then
21 clarified. And we'll wait for the witness to enter the courtroom.
22 [The witness takes the stand]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kovac, we'll continue. I think it would save
24 time if you more directly respond to questions put to you by
25 Mr. McCloskey, rather than to first deal with a few other matters which
1 are not part of the question.
2 Please proceed.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY:
4 Q. Staying in your report, 65 ter 1D5358, let's go to page 208 in
5 the English and 206 in the B/C/S. I'd like to look at paragraph 5.83 and
6 5.84. This is where you talk about Directive 7 and Directive 7.1, and
7 I'll read this out briefly.
8 "It is not disputed that Directive 7 bears the signature of
9 Dr. Karadzic, just as it is not disputed that General Radivoje Miletic
10 signed it as the person who was involved in its drafting. It is also
11 beyond dispute that the cover letter with which the directive was
12 distributed to the corps commands was signed by ... chief of the VRS GS,
13 General Manojlo Milovanovic."
14 Paragraph 5.84:
15 "The RS president signed documents proposed to him by the VRS GS
16 with confidence. A directive is not an executive document, but a whole
17 series of executive documents is prepared on its basis in the form of
18 commands, orders, plans and similar which offered possibilities for
19 correcting what was not formulated well in the directive. Some ten days
20 after it was issued, General Staff directive number 7/1 was drawn up.
21 Its number indicates that it is a follow-up document to Directive 7. It
22 is important to note that Directive 7/1 altered a few elements contained
23 in Directive 7, primarily by omitting the incriminatory sentence on the
24 tasks of the Drina Corps. That means that there was no intention to put
25 civilians in jeopardy and that this formulation can be attributed to the
1 poor judgement of an operations officer from the VRS GS who wrote the
2 document and that this mistake was later noticed and removed from the new
3 combat document, VRS GS Directive number 7.1."
4 Now to discuss this briefly, let's go to Directive 7 itself which
5 begins at P01469, page 1.
6 And, General, we should see the cover page that you referred to
7 in your report that went out by -- from -- under General Milovanovic.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, it should be page 1 of 1469. There we go.
9 Thank you. In the English.
10 Q. And, General, that's what you were referring to in your report,
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And we'll try to remember that this is dated 17 March 1995 when
14 the directive is sent out to the corps.
15 Let's go to page 2. And, General, is it your understanding this
16 is the first page of the actual Directive 7?
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: And it's page 3 in the B/C/S. Thank you.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY:
20 Q. And for our memory, we'll note that that is dated March 8th. And
21 I think we can all agree that this was at the last page signed by
22 President Karadzic with a note drafted Colonel Radivoje Miletic, perhaps,
23 and save some time.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Now if we could go to the body of the document.
25 Yes, all right. Thank you for pulling that up.
1 Q. That's what you also said in your report, that it was -- I think
2 you said signed by, but we can see here that it's just typed, that it was
3 drafted by Radivoje Miletic; correct?
4 A. Yes, the typewritten name.
5 Q. Okay.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Now let's go to the Drina Corps section, which
7 should be page 17 in both languages, I believe. I'm sorry, it's page 10
8 in the English, 17 in the B/C/S.
9 Q. And just to remind us, what you had said in your report is you
10 talk about that 7.1 omitted what you call the "incriminatory sentence."
11 So can we agree that the incriminatory sentence you referred to is -- is
12 at the bottom of the page in English and is the -- near the end of the
13 first paragraph in the Serbian and --
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: First paragraph of the reference to Drina Corps.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, yes. Thank you.
16 Q. And I believe you meant by the incriminatory sentence:
17 "By well-planned and well-thought out combat operations create an
18 unbearable situation of total insecurity with no hope of further survival
19 or life for the inhabitants of Srebrenica and Zepa."
20 Is that what you meant when you said that, that that was the
21 incriminatory sentence?
22 A. Yes, I meant that sentence, which is not in keeping with the
23 logic of the directive or its intention.
24 JUDGE ORIE: You've answered the question by saying that that was
25 the sentence you referred to.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY:
3 Q. Now, if we go back to your report at page 206 in the B/C/S and
4 page 209, you say that that sentence, and I quote, "can be attributed to
5 the poor judgement of an operations officer from the VRS GS who wrote the
6 document, and that this mistake," you call it, "that this mistake was
7 later noticed and removed from the new combat document."
8 So who, in your view, is this operations officer who can be
9 blamed for this statement?
10 A. I don't know by name, but I believe it was very poor judgement
11 and very badly formulated.
12 Q. You know that General Miletic was the chief of operations and
13 training in the Main Staff. So you're not referring to him as the
14 operations officer?
15 A. He is certainly headed the drafting of the directive, but he was
16 not the only one who participated in its drafting. He had an operative
17 officer next to him and people who actually did the writing.
18 Q. So you're saying that it's not Miletic that made this mistake.
19 It was one of his staff, perhaps a lieutenant or a major?
20 A. I don't think so, and officers of such ranks are not with the
21 staff organ. They would have to be more senior officers, both by rank
22 and by age. But it's not up to the chief of the operative organ to be --
23 in fact, he is responsible. He bears responsibility for this
25 Q. Okay. You go on to say here that it was a mistake and it was
1 later noticed and removed. So are you telling us that you believe that
2 this document that went out, that was signed by Karadzic on the 8th and
3 it went out a few days later, was missed, this mistake was missed by
4 Miletic, it was missed by President Karadzic, it was missed by General
5 Mladic and everybody else?
6 A. When it was noticed - that was my logic - it was removed in the
7 following directive. But the document had gone out already. That's what
8 I assume.
9 Q. And for the record, Directive 7/1 - which we don't need go to -
10 P1470, was -- went out on 31 March 1995.
11 So your analysis takes this, not even to an officer, perhaps to a
12 sergeant or a corporal that wrote this?
13 A. No, we didn't understand each other. I said the person
14 responsible is the one who signs the document, and in this specific case,
15 that was Colonel - later General - Miletic.
16 Q. So in your report, when you refer to an operations officer, you
17 meant Miletic?
18 A. He bears essential responsibility. But I mentioned in my report
19 that this was imprudently done by an operations officer who phrased these
20 items in the directive. However, it was Miletic's duty to review and
21 revise the whole text and approve it before giving it to the supreme
22 commander to sign. That's why I'm saying he is responsible.
23 Q. And we understand that, General. My point is: Are you saying
24 that it was Miletic that phrased this or one of his subordinate officers,
25 because you don't say it in your statement. You say:
1 "It can" -- and I quote, "can be contributed to the poor
2 judgement of an operations from the VRS GS."
3 So the phraseology was not done by Miletic but someone else;
5 A. I just said a moment ago that he didn't physically write it --
6 Q. Please try to answer -- please try to answer my question.
7 MR. IVETIC: I'll object, Your Honours. He's answered the
8 question twice. Counsel is refusing to listen to the answer. I'll give
9 you the citations in a moment.
10 In --
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think we can go on without this tirade.
12 MR. IVETIC: No, if the question is being posed, if the witness
13 is being told he's not answering --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --
15 MR. IVETIC: -- I have a right to --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --
17 MR. IVETIC: -- for the record show that is he wrong.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you first not continue talking when I
19 try to resolve a matter.
20 If there's an objection, Mr. McCloskey, we'll first listen to
21 that, and if you then later decide to go on and not put the question to
22 the witness, that's fine. But the Defence has an opportunity to -- yes.
23 MR. IVETIC: Line -- page 28, line 17, the witness explicitly
24 stated he did not know the name of the officer who drafted it. When he
25 was asked by Mr. McCloskey whether it was a lieutenant or major, page 29,
1 lines 2 through 6, the witness said it couldn't be a lieutenant or major
2 because the officer would have to be of a more senior rank and a more
3 seniority position. So he -- the witness has answered twice the question
4 that Prosecution counsel is accusing him of not answering and that is
6 JUDGE ORIE: Well, as a matter of fact, I think, first, if I look
7 at the two spots you said, the first time he said he didn't know who it
8 was. The second was that he didn't know rank. And now the question was:
9 But was it somebody else than Mr. Miletic. That could be -- have been
10 implied in his answers but I think that's what Mr. McCloskey would like
11 to have clear. But since he said he would move on anyhow, I think
12 that ... I think that there's certainly some merit in your objection,
13 although literally you can't say that the same question was answered
15 But before we move on, I have one other question for the witness
16 where he apparently, at least in my view, Mr. Ivetic, didn't fully answer
17 the question, which was -- you were asked whether when Directive 7 was
18 issued, whether Karadzic and Mladic and - who else was it? - had missed
19 that mistake. You didn't directly answer that question. You said when
20 it was later noticed, the text was changed. But do I understand that
21 implicit in this answer is that in the first round, before the mistake
22 was noticed, as you said, that they missed the mistake?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I said twice that
24 Miletic was responsible because he signed the document before it was sent
25 out --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I have heard that. But the question was
2 whether Miletic, Karadzic, and Mladic would have missed that mistake. Is
3 that implicit in the answers you did give, that they have missed it?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not all these persons were involved
5 in this process that you mentioned in your question. The chief of
6 operations forwards it to the supreme commander for signature. That's
7 why I believe he is responsible, regardless of who put this language in
8 the document.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Did Miletic miss it?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Did Karadzic miss it?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that in that position, a
13 person doesn't ever have time enough to read the details of the document,
14 he just signs. He missed it, yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Did Mr. Mladic miss it?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know whether he had any
17 contact with this directive at all.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's -- that's -- now we have an answer to
19 the question.
20 If you are referring to later noticing the mistake, you relied on
21 your logic of the matters. Is there anything else apart from your logic
22 which makes you believe that it was a mistake which was then noticed and
23 was then corrected?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I didn't see anything else.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, fine --
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Except --
2 JUDGE ORIE: -- that's an answer to my question. It's your
4 Please proceed.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY:
6 Q. And we saw that Milovanovic sent copies of this out. Did he miss
7 it, the language, General Milovanovic, from your logic or knowledge of
9 A. General Milovanovic only forwarded the directive. He wasn't
10 responsible in that process to read the document before signing either,
11 and maybe he noticed it after the document was signed.
12 Q. So does your logic tell you that then-Colonel Miletic sent this
13 document directly to President Karadzic without Mladic or Milovanovic
14 seeing it?
15 A. Maybe they saw some elements, or maybe they were familiar with
16 elements of the directive, but they didn't have to read it in detail
17 carefully. I'm talking about their job description, their competencies.
18 Q. All right. Let's go to a document. Perhaps that may shed some
19 light on the intentions of those that wrote this.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's go to P1505.
21 Q. And, sir, this is a document that's in evidence here, it's dated
22 4th of July. You will have a chance to see it. It's from the commander
23 of the Bratunac Brigade at the time, Lieutenant-Colonel Ognjenovic. And
24 he said some things in this document that, from the Prosecution's
25 perspective, are remarkable similar to what you call the incriminatory
1 sentence and so I want to ask you about this. And if you see, we have
2 the first page there from Ognjenovic's document. It starts off with:
3 "During his recent visit to our corps command, the commander of
4 the VRS GS indicated that he would soon visit some of the corps units,
5 including the Bratunac Brigade."
6 Okay. Then Ognjenovic continue -- says to his -- to this
7 particular unit, the 3rd Infantry Battalion, several things. And we can
8 tell from this first page that Blagojevic was aware that Mladic had made
9 some comments. So I want to go to page 3 in the English and page 2 in
10 the B/C/S --
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey, you said Blagojevic. Was that
12 what you wanted to say?
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: No. Thank you very much. As we know, Blagojevic
14 became commander of the Bratunac Brigade in May of 1995, and Ognjenovic
15 was commander of the Bratunac Brigade in 1994.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You wanted to say Ognjenovic.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, I should have said Ognjenovic. Thank you
18 for the correction.
19 Q. Okay. So let's look at -- it's under paragraph -- should
20 be noted as -- well, it's right above what is noted as number 3 in both
21 languages, and it starts, the part that I'm interested in:
22 "We must attain our final goal, an entirely Serbian Podrinje.
23 The enclaves of Srebrenica, Zepa and Gorazde must be defeated militarily.
24 "We must continue to arm, train, discipline, and prepare the RS
25 army for the execution of this crucial task - the expulsion of Muslims
1 from the Srebrenica enclave.
2 "There will be no retreat when it comes to the Srebrenica
3 enclave, we must advance. The enemy's life has to be made unbearable and
4 their temporary stay in the enclave impossible so that they leave the
5 enclave en masse as soon as possible, realising that they cannot survive
7 Now what I'm particularly interested in are not the references to
8 the enemy and defeating the enemy and driving the enemy out. What I'm
9 asking about is, isn't this targeting this civilian population when he
10 says that their stay in the enclave, make it impossible so that they
11 leave the enclave en masse. Doesn't "en masse" include the army and the
13 A. Well, this is a negative link to the sentence from the directive.
14 That is my interpretation.
15 Q. So you think this is incriminatory also.
16 A. What do you mean "incriminatory"? I don't quite understand.
17 Q. Well, like you --
18 A. Yes?
19 Q. Like you said about the reference from Directive 7. If this
20 refers to the civilians and saying the civilians and the army can't
21 survive there, that's very similar to the incriminating comment that you
22 referred to in Directive 7, is it not?
23 A. Well, the formulation is similar. That's what I think.
24 Q. Okay. And we can see the term in English "survive" is similar to
25 both of them. So given that similarity that you've acknowledged in
1 Ognjenovic's report to his troops and the fact that he had made reference
2 to a recent visit to Mladic to the corps command, do you think that
3 Ognjenovic would have developed this incriminatory language himself, or
4 is he getting that from his superior command?
5 A. Well, I don't see that there is any reference to a quotation
6 here. I don't know how he understood the conversation. I see that this
7 is how he transferred it and signed it.
8 Q. So you do think he has transferred information from Mladic to
9 this order?
10 A. No. He formulated that and on the basis of what, that I cannot
11 say. He is the signatory of this document.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you earlier relied very much on your logic.
13 Does your logic assist you here in any way?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It does, as I've just said.
15 JUDGE ORIE: You mean that he is the signatory and that's --
16 that's ...
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Every signatory of a combat
18 document is responsible for the document and for what is expressed there,
19 in terms of principles and in terms of powers.
20 JUDGE ORIE: And your logic doesn't say anything about whether or
21 not he would have done this without his superiors knowing of developing
22 these -- this language or correcting him if it was wrong?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He is the signatory of the document
24 and it's a public document, and I don't know --
25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We did not hear the rest
1 of the sentence.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But that the formulation is bad,
3 yes, it is.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps first you finish -- there was one portion of
7 your answer which was missed by the interpreters. You said, Witness:
8 "He is the signatory of the document and it's a public document,
9 and I don't know ..."
10 Could you please repeat what you then said. So not extend the
11 answer but just repeat what you then said. You do not know. And
12 then ...
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know whether anyone drew
14 his attention to this because the document was accessible to superior
15 commands as well.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I have one follow-up question.
18 Isn't it true that a commander of a subordinate unit has to give
19 orders to his unit in accordance with orders received from above, from a
20 higher level?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, but not orders that are
22 contrary to the law and regulations. Such orders are not carried out and
23 are not built into combat documents.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That is -- would be the principle. I'm asking
25 you more about factual proceedings. The framework is for orders of a
1 subordinate unit is given by the upper level. That's correct; yes?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct, yes. But it
3 doesn't --
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But it doesn't ... but it doesn't ... what do you
5 want to say?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I meant that a document issuing an
7 order cannot be a copy of all the things contained in the order of the
8 superior command.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Did you find any document which responded to what
11 you said was illegal approach or illegal views on what should be done or
12 any order which was given as a consequence? Did you ever find a
13 subordinate saying, Hey, this is illegal, I'm not going to follow your
14 orders, or please withdraw your order? Did you find anything of the
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I did, specifically the
17 example of the commander of the Zvornik Brigade in his interim report and
18 position regarding prisoners or, rather, prisoners of war, in the area of
19 responsibility of his brigade.
20 JUDGE ORIE: But this document is not about prisoners of war.
21 The portion your attention was drawn to was about making life unbearable
22 for the population. So do you have any example of opposition or a
23 response of the kind as I referred to against this language?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. And I was guided by -- okay.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you've answered my question.
1 Please proceed.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: I have another follow-up question.
3 Sir, in response to a question by Judge Fluegge, you answered at
4 page 38, line 5:
5 "I meant that a document issuing an order cannot be a copy of all
6 the things typed in the order of the superior command."
7 My follow-up question is: Could a document issued by a
8 subordinate commander expand on the order from a superior commander?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, expand in which sense?
10 In terms of content, in terms of tasks?
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: In terms of content, in terms of tasks, can it say
12 more in its -- in the document than what was said by the superior
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In a war, as it was waged, yes,
15 especially in the descriptive part of the document.
16 As for the task or objective of the activity involved, has to be
17 expressed exactly as it was expressed in the document to the superior
18 command. As for other elements of the document, they are derived from
19 the document to the superior command. I mean the part that has to do
20 with combat activities, tasks, issued to subordinate units and also
21 securing units in terms of the combat operations involved.
22 The first part that we are speaking of now is general,
23 descriptive, and each and every command formulates it on the basis of its
24 own view.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: And as to the objective, do you say it cannot --
1 can it expand the objective of the task?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The task pertains to the brigade in
3 this specific case and it cannot be expanded on.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm asking about the objective of the task, what
5 the task is intended to achieve. Can the subordinate expand on that?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The objective and the task are
7 explicitly taken over. As for this part up here, that is not in the
8 domain of the objective and task of a specific brigade.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, looking at the document on the screen, I
10 read that he says:
11 "We must continue to arm, train, discipline, and prepare the RS
12 army for the execution of this crucial task."
13 And then he tells us what that is:
14 "The expulsion of Muslims from the Srebrenica enclave."
15 So that's what the task is supposed to achieve, isn't it?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask to take a look
17 at the time of the document, when it was issued.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: You -- you can --
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In any context it --
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- look at the time but just answer my question
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wrote down the time and the year
23 and that's why I'm saying this.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: I know that but that's --
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This document --
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- not part of my question. I'm sure can you
2 answer my question without referring to time. You can look at the time
4 MR. IVETIC: But, Your Honours, if a witness is asking to see
5 something to answer a question, I believe it is appropriate that he be
6 allowed to see it.
7 JUDGE ORIE: The witness is asked a question on the basis of what
8 is shown to him at this moment. He can answer that question and if he
9 wants to add anything after that about time-frame and the relevance of
10 such time-frame, he'll have an opportunity to do so.
11 MR. IVETIC: But he is being shown half of the paragraph. He is
12 asking to see the rest of the document. I really think it's a witness's
13 prerogative to ask to see an entirety of a document before answering a
14 question about one small part of a document.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Well, first of all, I think he has seen it before.
16 But he is now invited to interpret the language of this document as it
17 stands. Relevance of that language, time-frame, et cetera, is certainly
18 a matter which may be raised after that, but this question can be
19 answered without further looking to the time-frame. And, as a matter of
20 fact, the witness has shown again and again that matters which are not
21 asked, that he uses those not -- to evade answering a question.
22 Therefore, he should focus now on answering that question.
23 And perhaps Judge Moloto briefly repeats it because there has
24 been quite an exchange of words after the question.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: I said:
1 "Well" - and I quote myself, this is at page 40, line 9 -
2 "looking at the document on the screen, I read that it says:
3 "'We must continue to arm, train, discipline, and prepare the
4 RS army for the execution of this crucial task.'"
5 "And then he tells us what this is: 'The expulsion of Muslims
6 from the Srebrenica enclave.'
7 "So that's what the task is supposed to achieve, isn't it?"
8 That's my question.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that the position was taken
10 out of context and I don't think that that is its meaning. And I don't
11 think there was a military intention to expel Muslims from Srebrenica
12 either in that period or at all.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're not answering my question. You are now
14 interpreting this. My question was originally: Can a subordinate expand
15 on an order given by a superior? You said: No, not as far as objectives
16 are concerned. But to the extent that he gives directives as to what
17 should be done on the ground, he may.
18 Now I'm saying here, this is an objective, objective is to expel
19 the Muslims from the Srebrenica enclave. Is that something that a
20 subordinate could add when -- even though it was not included in the
21 command of the superior?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is not a task and it's not an
23 objective. In this document.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: This is the final result that must come: The
25 expulsion of the Muslims from the Srebrenica enclave. Once that has been
1 achieved, what else is there for the army to do?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for the time of the document,
3 that was not the objective or the task of this brigade. And it couldn't
4 have carried out such a task.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: But it is contained in this order, this objective.
6 And it is at that time when -- of this order.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not saying ... Your Honour, I'm
8 not saying that the order is a good one. It's not good. It's not
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm also --
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But I'm saying --
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm also not talking about its goodness or
13 badness. I'm just talking about how orders are carried out because you
14 explained that you can exclude some things that are coming from a
15 superior order, and I'm asking the opposite: Can you expand on orders
16 from the -- from superior orders?
17 Whether the order is good or not good is not the point I am
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In this first part, it is
20 formulated in its own way. It is not simply copied. And it is not
21 expressed verbatim as it was presented in the document to the superior
22 command. Rather, they are operationalized and expressed in terms of the
23 needs of one's own unit, the specific area of responsibility of the
24 brigade, and its surrounding area. So this part of paragraph 2 does not
25 have to be copied from the document of the superior command and doesn't
1 have to quote that document.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Obviously you are not answering my
3 question. Thank you so much.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. --
5 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, if I may, just for purposes of the
6 record. At temporary transcript page 42, lines 10 through 12,
7 Judge Moloto said: Your interpreting the document, you're not answering
8 the question. When in fact just prior to that, Judge Orie at
9 transcript page 41, line 13 through 14, specifically instructed the
10 witness to interpret the document. So I want that on the record that the
11 witness was following Judge Orie's instruction.
12 JUDGE ORIE: It's hereby on the record whether it's -- what you
13 said, Mr. Ivetic. It's on the record, you've said it, it's transcribed,
14 it's there.
15 Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me also place on the record that that may be
17 so. My question didn't ask for any interpretation. It asked for
18 something else.
19 MR. IVETIC: I appreciate that, and that's why I did not have any
20 problems with your questions. I just wanted it on the record that that
21 was said.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY:
24 Q. Okay, General, I want to take us back where you and I had left
25 off on this Ognjenovic document.
1 You had agreed with me or had said that part of this document
2 was, similar to the other one, problematic. And I refer to the section
3 where it talks about "en masse" and "survive" there. And I want to
4 explore that a little more because, have you had a chance to review
5 General Zivanovic, the then-commander of the Drina Corps, his handwritten
6 notes on meetings that occurred at the corps on July 1st, 1994?
7 A. I did not have the opportunity to see these handwritten notes.
8 Q. All right. Well, they haven't been in -- used in open court or
9 by any -- in -- in this court yet by any witness, as far as I know. So
10 let's take a look.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: P5273, page 1.
12 Q. And while we're waiting for that to come up, I'm just showing you
13 a little red book, sir, with "JNA" on it. This is, we believe, to be the
14 original copy that we -- was obtained from General Zivanovic. And it
15 says "JNA" on it. Is that a typical officer's notebook, in your
17 A. I find it to be familiar based on the visual perception of it.
18 Q. Okay.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: And what we have -- because the translation is
20 the actual handwritten document which can be difficult to read, so what
21 we've done is we have -- if we could have in the B/C/S side only
22 65 ter 19193B, where we have typed up in Cyrillic precisely what we -- as
23 best as we could, what we see in the handwritten.
24 Q. I think -- it should be much easier for you to look at. And if
25 we could also hand to you the first few pages of that typed version so
1 you can get a feel for it as we begin here with 1 July 1994.
2 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I don't see that the typed Cyrillic
3 version is part of the exhibit in e-court. I only see the handwritten
4 version. So I'm a little bit confused as to now we have a document
5 prepared by somebody else, which is not the original, being used instead
6 of the original that is not part of an exhibit. I could be mistaken
7 about this but I only see two documents in e-court. One is an English
8 translation, the other one I opened up is handwritten.
9 JUDGE ORIE: I think there are three versions in e-court. One is
10 the handwritten one, but let's check it, whether this is true also for
11 this portion. Again we were talking about P...
12 MR. IVETIC: 5273.
13 JUDGE ORIE: P5273. I'll check immediately.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: And we sent this to the Defence in an e-mail on
15 Monday night to try to avoid any problem. I know you've been busy.
16 MR. IVETIC: I have, but whether I got it in e-mail it's still
17 not part of the exhibit as I see it on the screen. That's my concern. I
18 don't know where it comes from.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey referred to a 65 ter number and we
20 should try to find it in e-court.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: 19193B.
22 JUDGE ORIE: I see this handwritten version in --
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's up there. That's our typed version now. As
24 you may remember seeing the handwritten version originally, we now have
25 the typewritten version.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But --
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It's in e-court --
3 JUDGE ORIE: As a matter of fact, the handwritten version, I
4 found that in e-court so --
5 MR. IVETIC: I don't have a problem with the handwritten. I'm
6 saying that the exhibit that's been tendered, P5273, has a handwritten
7 and has a typed version. It does not have a typed B/C/S version.
8 Therefore, if we're using -- mixing and matches parts of two different
9 documents, I think either something needs to be added to P5273 or -- or
10 some more information. That's the problem I have. It might be in
11 e-court under another number, but it doesn't address the fact that this
12 exhibit that is being referred to now is being compared to another
13 document without both languages of the exhibit as it's been admitted.
14 JUDGE ORIE: We'll check that. Of course, the importance of it
15 is, Mr. Ivetic, whether the typewritten version, which I remember we have
16 used in some -- at some times, whether the typewritten version fully
17 corresponds with the handwritten version, whether there's any dispute
18 about the accuracy of the transcription into a typewritten version. If
19 there's anything of the kind you are concerned about, please tell us
20 immediately. If there's not for the time being, it should be uploaded
21 and should be made part of the exhibit as we look at --
22 MR. IVETIC: My concern is we don't have anyone in e-court --
23 pardon me, in the courtroom today who can do that analysis since
24 Mr. Stojanovic can't -- actually, Mr. Stojanovic can check it. I
25 apologise. We will have him check to see the correlation between the
1 typed and the handwritten. I --
2 JUDGE ORIE: That's appreciated. Please proceed.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, that's, of course, why we sent it on Monday.
4 And this is a convenience for the witness so he doesn't have to try to
5 sort out the handwritten.
6 Q. Okay. General, now, we're looking at General Zivanovic's
7 handwritten notes which are dated 1 July, which we -- it's the
8 Prosecution's position is the 1 July meeting when Mladic was at the corps
9 that was referenced in Ognjenovic's previous document. And I can tell
10 you, having leafed through it a bit, we can see the people noted in his
11 notes as present at that meeting were General Mladic, Pandurevic, Andric,
12 Krstic, Ognjenovic, Kusic, Furtula, Tolimir, Gvero. So those are members
13 of -- some of those are brigade commanders of the Drina Corps and some of
14 those were members of the Main Staff. I think we know the players at
15 this point.
16 So let's now explore a bit. Let's see if General Zivanovic's
17 notes reflect anything like what we saw in Ognjenovic's document of a few
18 days later. And remembering the issue is, is this -- the survive issue,
19 is something that came out of the hand of an operations officer or is
20 this something that perhaps the Main Staff has developed? So let's go
21 to --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, I'm looking at the clock. Perhaps it
23 would be good if the witness has an opportunity to read through these
24 documents during the break and that you then ask questions that he is
25 more familiar with the text.
1 Witness, we'll take a break of 20 minutes. You're invited to
2 just glance through that document that has been given to you. You may
3 follow the usher.
4 Mr. McCloskey, as far as timing is concerned, and I'm not only
5 addressing you but also addressing Mr. Ivetic.
6 [The witness stands down]
7 JUDGE ORIE: It's -- we resume at quarter past 12.00. What is
8 then to be expected. Will be able to conclude the evidence of this
9 witness today?
10 Mr. Ivetic is nodding yes but it takes two to tango.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: I very much hope so. Let me see how much time I
12 have taken and what else I have --
13 JUDGE ORIE: You have approximately half an hour left. Perhaps
14 in view of the questions by the Chamber a little bit more, but ...
15 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
16 JUDGE ORIE: A little bit over half an hour.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: I will make every effort to finish that up and --
18 unless you really want me to continue onward.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Would that leave you sufficient time for
20 re-examination, Mr. Ivetic?
21 MR. IVETIC: It would, Your Honours. Right now, I have 40 to
22 45 minutes total and I can try to --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, well, that's not -- I mean, we have still two
24 breaks to go and have two hours and 15 minutes left so -- but I take it
25 that the parties will stick to their assessments.
1 We'll take a break and resume at -- well, now, 20 minutes past
3 --- Recess taken at 11.58 a.m.
4 --- On resuming at 12.20 p.m.
5 [The witness takes the stand]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, you may proceed.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
8 JUDGE ORIE: I would like to urge the witness again to try to
9 give direct answers to the questions. That's most important.
10 Please proceed.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY:
12 Q. Okay. General, let's go through these notes and see what we can
13 make of them.
14 We first see 1 July 1994 and then Vlasenica. Vlasenica is the
15 location of the headquarters of the Drina Corps; right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. All right. Then we see General Mladic is underlined and there's
18 several bullet points. Take a look at those. But then we need to go to
19 the next page in the B/C/S typed because it's my understanding that this
20 notation that General Zivanovic makes:
21 "We are on our way to clear the enclaves."
22 Do you see that on the note, General?
23 A. I do.
24 Q. All right.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's go to the next page in the English, and it
1 should be page 3 in the typed B/C/S.
2 Q. We see Colonel Andric there, and under --
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We are not on the right page in B/C/S yet.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Should be page 3.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: There we are.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's Cyrillic, okay. I didn't know that. Thank
8 Q. So Colonel Andric, we can agree he was the brigade commander for
9 the Sekovici Brigade?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And we see Mladic's name written. And then it says:
12 "You have enough troops."
13 Can logic tell us that General Mladic must have told Colonel
14 Andric that he has enough troops?
15 A. In what sense and what for? It could be a general statement or
16 it could refer to a specific mission. We can't see from this.
17 Q. I agree. But I just want -- we can agree that General Mladic
19 "You have enough troops."
20 But we don't know what he means besides that?
21 A. We don't even know whether he said it. In fact, I don't know
22 whether he said it or not.
23 I have a general problem with a handbook, with a copy book as a
25 Q. Okay. Let's continue to go through it, despite your problems,
1 and if there's anything I can help with, let me know.
2 Let's now go to page 4 in the B/C/S, staying on the page we are,
3 we see Kosoric. Wasn't there a Lieutenant-Colonel Kosoric in the
4 Drina Corps intelligence department?
5 A. I'm not sure.
6 Q. Okay. And we see a reference to Krstic. At that time in 1994,
7 Radislav Krstic would have been the Chief of Staff deputy commander of
8 the Drina Corps?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. If we go to page 3 in the English, should be page 5 in the typed
11 B/C/S, we go down and again we see Mladic's name and some bullet points.
12 And it says here:
13 "The enclave is not so that they survive but so that they
15 MR. IVETIC: And that does not correlate to the B/C/S that's on
16 the screen.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Well, then, could we move --
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Should be B/C/S page 5.
19 JUDGE ORIE: What we have is -- this is not, I think -- I'll
20 just ... this is not the right page. This is also not the right --
21 MR. IVETIC: The text was there. It's just different from --
22 than it is in the English. That the --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Could we go back to the page where we have
24 above each other, I think, where Ognjenovic is supposed to start --
25 MR. IVETIC: Yeah. And so here in the B/C/S, it says [B/C/S
1 spoken]. Enclaves are not to survive but to disappear.
2 So the additional, "that they," is not in the B/C/S that is in
3 the English.
4 JUDGE ORIE: That is your -- whether that's an accurate
5 translation or not, that is how -- that is for CLSS to decide. But we
6 are now, I think, on the right page.
7 Please proceed.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you. And this was a recently revised CLSS
9 translation and I would -- if we have these issues, we can discuss it
10 outside the presence of the witness, please.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If there's any matter remaining, then I take
12 it that it will be either agreed by the parties upon or it will be sent
13 to CLSS to specifically verify this portion.
14 Please proceed.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY:
16 Q. The term "survive" is similar to the terms used in Directive 7
17 and in Ognjenovic's document we saw from 1994, isn't it?
18 A. The term itself, yes, but the meaning is not the same.
19 Q. Yes, well, we see the meaning as:
20 "The enclave is not so they survive but so that they disappear,"
21 and I think we'll leave it at that.
22 As we go down farther, we can see under Mladic - this is --
23 should be B/C/S the next page, page 6 on my note - "reduce the enclave."
24 All right. Now let's -- we've seen Zivanovic's note. Let's take
25 a look at Zivanovic's other notebook for 1995 which we also got from him.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, before we do so. The Chamber would like to
2 have that one sentence over the next break be reviewed by CLSS if that's
3 possible - it's just one sentence - to see whether there's really some
4 different meaning. Mr. Ivetic raised the matter. Whether it's just
5 language or whether it's more, we do not know, and we'd like to have that
6 one sentence be verified.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. We were concerned and did
8 that a few days ago, and my only request would be if we try to get the
9 same -- not that there's many people left at CLSS, but if we have the
10 same group, then we will be on better grounds. Because you know
11 languages better than I are not perfect.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But was it specifically focusing on that
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: And that sentence was confirmed as having received
16 an accurate translation by CLSS.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. This is CLSS focusing on this. We asked
18 them to, and this is what they gave us and that was provided the Defence.
19 This has all been done days before, though I know Mr. Ivetic has been
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Under those circumstances, Mr. Ivetic, I think
22 it would not have been appropriate to say what it says in English and
23 whether it's right or wrong. If you are aware of this verification --
24 MR. IVETIC: I am not.
25 JUDGE ORIE: -- then you should have raised -- you were not
1 informed about it?
2 MR. IVETIC: I, as I stand here, am not aware of that. And I'm
3 reading what is the official text --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Well, that's --
5 MR. IVETIC: -- and this new document that was given to me on
6 Monday --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Let's --
8 MR. IVETIC: -- so when it could have been confirmed, I don't
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand now and if there's any doubt
11 about that, of course, that should be sorted out, but that specifically
12 this line has been verified by CLSS very recently, focusing especially on
13 this line.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: And then we leave it to that. And if there's any
16 doubt, then the party which wishes to raise that has an opportunity to do
18 But, meanwhile, we'll continue. And I withdraw the Chamber's
19 request of having this one line being confirmed during the next break.
20 Please proceed.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: And so it's clear, the typed Cyrillic is not a
22 translation of anything. It's -- it's a transcript of the handwritten.
23 JUDGE ORIE: It's clear that that's what it is.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. All right.
25 So we're back to P05274, page 25 in the English, and if we, doing
1 the same thing we did before, go to 65 ter 19192B, page 1.
2 The P number was P5274.
3 [Prosecution counsel confer]
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It is not the corresponding page.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: The 65 ter was 19192B.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Which is a 54 --
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Well, I -- I'm sorry, I must have the wrong
9 JUDGE ORIE: What we have now is 54 pages.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yeah. Let's just go to the handwritten, then,
11 that goes along with the English.
12 MR. IVETIC: I think that's it.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Oh. Okay. Thank you. Don't know where I went
14 wrong there, but thank you for getting it up.
15 Q. Okay. General, we can see that -- well, it's off my page, but if
16 we can make the English bigger, there should be a date - there we go - of
17 8 March 1995. We'll make yours bigger as well, so hopefully you can see
18 that. It should be there. Yeah. And as we'll recall that was the date
19 on the doc -- on Directive 7 that Karadzic signed, and we see it says
20 "GS - KM." What does that mean?
21 A. Command post of the Main Staff.
22 Q. All right. And it conveniently lists who is present. We see
23 Mladic and General Tomic. General Tomic was the finance and planning
24 chief, was he not?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And Colonel Skrbic was in personnel?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You've told us about Colonel Beara, and we know about
4 Colonel Ognjenovic. And we have discussions referred here.
5 So let's go to the next page in English, should be the next page
6 in the Serbian as well. And we see that someone is -- says that they are
7 ashamed because they're not a colonel. And that continues. We get into
8 a bit about UNPROFOR, enemy aircraft towards Srebrenica, bring down.
9 That's -- Mladic's name is written next to that. Then it says: In
10 Srebrenica - details control. Then Mladic's name is written.
11 So let's go to the next page, and what we see here is a note that
12 Zivanovic has written down:
13 "Make life impossible."
14 That is similar to what we see in the language that you've spoken
15 of in Directive 7 and in Ognjenovic's report of 1994, is it not?
16 A. I just said a moment ago, I reviewed now and I reviewed during
17 the break these words, and I cannot say based on words in a copy book
18 what somebody had in mind and what it means.
19 Q. Of course, that wasn't the question. Would you agree with me
20 that it's similar to the -- what was -- you called it the incriminatory
21 language of Directive 7 and the language in Ognjenovic's order of 1994?
22 A. I don't know what it relates to. I don't see it from here. Of
23 course, it's incriminating. "Make life impossible." But what does this
24 simple sentence relate to? To whom? I can't see it.
25 JUDGE ORIE: We're not there yet. We're just looking at whether
1 this is a corresponding textual element to the documents we have been
2 shown before.
3 Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: And I think we'll leave those final questions to
5 the Chamber on that particular issue.
6 Q. But with one question. You have said that it's an operations
7 officer of some sort, we don't really know if it's an officer or an
8 enlisted man, that made this mistake and it got overlooked by several
9 people. Now that you have seen this same similar topic of survival and
10 making life impossible discussed at the highest levels of the VRS, does
11 your logic tell you that perhaps you're wrong about that this is -- this
12 is something that's coming only from an operations guy that made a
14 A. My logic tells me that this copy book displayed in this way,
15 expressed in this way, does not reflect the essence. When I analyse a
16 combat document, I understand it. A copy book of an individual doesn't
17 mean anything to me, nor can I conclude what it's about based on one or
18 two words in a paragraph. I have no idea what the writer meant to say.
19 Q. Okay. You mentioned when we were talking about the
20 self-organised paramilitaries and groups of avengers working with or
21 being -- co-ordinating with security officers, you as an example gave the
22 Skorpion unit. So I take it you're aware of the -- the film where ten
23 members of the Skorpion unit can be seen together with six Muslim men and
24 boys and then at some point we see those men and boys, like you say, shot
25 in the back?
1 A. [No interpretation]
2 Q. Let me take to you a document, 65 ter --
3 JUDGE ORIE: I think the witness answered in the affirmative.
4 Please proceed.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Oh, I'm sorry, I --
6 JUDGE ORIE: It was half nodding, half -- please proceed.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Can we go to 65 ter 01931.
8 Q. As that's coming up there, General, were you aware -- when you
9 described Sarajevo you said one of the sections, I think, was the Trnovo
10 area and so I think you're familiar with some of the combat and
11 situations that were going on in the Trnovo area in July 1995?
12 A. 1995?
13 Q. Yes.
14 A. From the documents, yes. From several documents. I mean
15 primarily the monographs of the commander and the Chief of Staff of the
16 1st Corps and the combat documents of both sides.
17 Q. And did you see from those documents that the Drina Corps had to
18 send units to assist the Serb forces on the -- at the Trnovo front?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And did you -- did you note that one of those forces was a
21 temporarily created brigade called the 4th Drina Light Infantry Brigade?
22 A. It's a unit of temporary composition, yes.
23 Q. Let's take a look at this document which is on this general
24 topic, and I think we can all see from looking at the Serbian version
25 that is it typed signed Ratko Mladic, SR. It's dated 19 July. And I
1 really just want to touch base briefly on what this document's about.
2 We see in the second paragraph it's a -- it's a reference to the
3 4th Drina Light Infantry Brigade command for troop rotation in Trnovo.
4 And if we look at General Mladic's order, point 1, he explains that due
5 to the Drina Corps units' activities regarding the liberation of Zepa,
6 searching the terrain, and blocking and destroying the remnants of Muslim
7 groups from Srebrenica in the greater area of Cerska, Kamenica, and
8 Pobudje, the 4th Drina Light Infantry Brigade remains at its present
9 combat positions in the greater Trnovo until further notice.
10 So the -- by the 19th of July, the 4th Drina Light Infantry
11 Brigade is still stuck in Trnovo; correct? On Mladic's orders? Is that
12 correct? I'm sorry, if you answered, I didn't --
13 A. Yes, that's correct.
14 Q. Okay. I'm sorry. Okay. Now I want to show you, and I'm not
15 going into great detail, I don't think it's necessary, but a map we
16 picked up from the Drina Corps collection.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: And if we could start off with 65 ter 33401. And
18 if I could hand a bigger version, I think it will be helpful for the
19 General to take a look at. We've provided these maps in big form to the
20 Defence a few days ago. If he could just take a look at it to
21 familiarize himself with it.
22 And for the English readers, could we blow up the top so we can
23 get an idea of what that says. The top left.
24 Okay. And we see that it's the work map of the chief of
25 intelligence and security of the 4th Drina Light Infantry Brigade, which
1 is printed out over the top of Sarajevo.
2 Now can we go back and look at the blue marks on this map, kind
3 of blow up the blue part, and with the English translations.
4 Q. Now, General, what I wanted to ask you about is, very briefly,
5 what is this? We see blue, we see red. Is this a sketch of the Muslim
6 positions and -- in blue and the Serb positions in red?
7 A. Yes, the Muslim or Bosniak forces are marked blue and the red are
8 Serbian. But a good part of the Muslim forces are in the area that was
9 controlled by the United Nations.
10 Q. All right. And just in the very south of this map, our English
11 tell us that one of the initials of the Serb forces is the 1/4, which has
12 been translated as the 1st Battalion of the 4th Drina Light Infantry
13 Brigade. Is that your understanding of that -- that -- those initials
14 down in the bottom south of the -- of this map, for the Serb forces?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. All right.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could I offer this into evidence, this -- this
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
20 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P7711, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, and also could I offer 01931 into evidence
23 too. That was the Mladic map -- excuse me, the Mladic order regarding
24 the rotation of troops.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
1 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P7712, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: P7712 is admitted into evidence.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. McCloskey, can you repeat the 65 ter number of
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: 01931.
6 Now can we go to 65 ter number 33469.
7 Q. And, General, we can see, if we look at the Serbian sides, that
8 this is from the commander, Major-General Radislav Krstic. And I really
9 just want to get from you, we see what -- what this is. It's talking
10 about the transportation of men from the 4th Drina Light Infantry Brigade
11 and it issues an order in that effect. And it gives the route by which
12 the men from these units are to go to get to Trnovo. And we can see that
13 it's direction Bratunac, Milici, Vlasenica, Han Pijesak, Sokolac, Pale,
14 Dobre Vode, Trnovo. That's in paragraph 2.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: And I'd like to offer that into evidence and get
16 a map that up will help us with this.
17 MR. IVETIC: Well, Your Honours, I think there have to be
18 questions asked of the witness if they're going to offer a document
19 through a witness. I don't see that one has as to this document.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: He's absolutely right. I asked -- I forgot to
21 say: Am I correct in the reading of that and my interpretation of it.
22 It's a bad way to save time.
23 Q. Is that right, General?
24 A. I didn't hear the interpretation. I just heard the document
25 itself. What you said is written in the document.
1 Q. And it is basically Krstic giving the directions of where the
2 unit providing the reinforcements to Trnovo is to go; is that right?
3 A. Well, as the superior officer that was his obligation as well,
5 Q. Okay.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: If could I offer that in now.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter number 33469 will be
9 Exhibit P7713.
10 JUDGE ORIE: P7713 is admitted.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY:
12 Q. Now, General, you have a good working knowledge of the important
13 locations in Bosnia and Herzegovina?
14 A. Well, some, yes.
15 Q. And you -- you have a working knowledge of roughly where the
16 front lines were, very roughly, in 1995?
17 A. In principle, yes.
18 Q. And it's true when you -- people had to travel during the war
19 time they had to, of course -- both sides had to take into account where
20 those fronts lines were, so direct route to places may not have been as
21 direct as they would have been in peacetime?
22 A. That's right. One had to go around many roads, yes.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we see 65 ter 33523.
24 Q. And if this will help, you could take a look at it. It's another
25 map that we provided to the Defence. And it's actually a composite of
1 two maps that are already in evidence, so we've been able to put the --
2 roughly where the front lines were from those other two maps.
3 [Prosecution counsel confer]
4 MR. McCLOSKEY:
5 Q. And just in looking at the maps, all we've really done here is,
6 aside from helping remind you of roughly where the front lines were,
7 we've noted the areas that we found on the map, the various cities, and
8 plotted them out towards Trnovo and then onto the village of Turovi.
9 Does that roughly accord to the locations that you -- that you recall and
10 would those be the right locations for the various towns and villages
11 that we've noted here?
12 A. Well, this copy is not exactly legible. It's only the names that
13 can be seen, and the lines, sort of. Now, to what extent this is right,
14 to what extent it corresponds, I really cannot say. It cannot be seen
15 very well.
16 Q. It's not meant -- it's meant to show the towns in relation to the
17 front lines and their general position. Does it roughly accord with your
18 recollection of that?
19 A. Yes.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would offer that map into evidence.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
22 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P7714, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ORIE: P7714 is admitted.
24 Mr. McCloskey, I'm looking at the clock. Mr. Ivetic you gave an
25 estimate of 40 minutes. Is that still - I have to ask you - a valid
2 MR. IVETIC: Yes, 40, 45.
3 JUDGE ORIE: 40, 45. Then, Mr. McCloskey, you've used
4 approximately your time by now. There were five minutes left. Could you
5 try to conclude in ten minutes from now.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. I will try to get through
7 this in -- in five minutes. And there was one more document that was in
8 response to the issue that --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if you use your time to do what you can do in
10 those ten minutes, that would be appreciated.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. All right. We need P3096.
12 Q. And we'll soon be seeing, General, a document from Dragomir
13 Milosevic, the commander of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, dated
14 23 July 1995, and it's a regular combat report to the Main Staff of the
15 VRS. And I just want to note a couple of the things that -- here and ask
16 you to help me.
17 Under "the enemy" it says:
18 "The enemy forces attacked our units at Trnovo line during the
19 day. That is at 1145 hours. The most violent attack was launched at the
20 Runjevic feature, the point of convergence between the Ministry of
21 Interior, MUP (Skorpions) and the 4th Drina Light Infantry Brigade."
22 And then it describes the weapons used. And then under "our
23 forces," it says:
24 "The MUP units (Skorpions) and the 4th Drina Light Infantry
25 Brigade successfully repelled the enemy attack and inflicted heavy losses
1 on the enemy."
2 And then it describes some more and it actually describes that in
3 paragraph 3, that there were -- some Skorpions were wounded as well as
4 the other forces of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Now if we could go to -- it's a cutout from the
6 big map that you saw that was the combat map from the Drina Brigade.
7 This should be 65 ter 33505.
8 Now, if we could blow that up a little bit, centring on the
9 centre of the map right now. Okay. That's good.
10 Q. In the centre, we see the Runjevica feature where the -- were the
11 1st Battalion of the 4th Drina Light Infantry Brigade is noted in
12 handwriting. Would that be the feature referred to in Milosevic's
14 A. I think so.
15 Q. And in that report, it says that the attack was launched at the
16 convergence between the Skorpion and the Drina units. Can you tell us,
17 militarily, would those two units be side by side normally in a defence
18 line or would they be all mixed up together?
19 A. In war time, there were different situations and the speed was
20 there to react to attacks by the other side. As for this area,
21 specifically in this period, according to Muslim sources and according to
22 Serb sources, was a period of intensive offensive activities when the
23 Serb forces did not have enough units. So both --
24 Q. General -- I'm sorry, General. I -- it was a simple question.
25 Are -- the Skorpions unit are adjacent to the Drina unit, right? They're
1 not all mixed up as they are on that defence line?
2 A. According to what was said here, next to, adjacent to. And in
3 principle, forces do not mix. But you asked me in principle whether such
4 cases were possible and that's how I answered. But what I found out was
5 adjacent to.
6 Q. Okay. Can you put an SK on that Runjevic feature so that we can
7 note that that's where they -- that's where that attack came at them, the
8 Skorpions and the Drina outfit? I know we don't know at this point know
9 exactly where they were, but just put it anywhere on the Runjevic feature
10 since we do know that.
11 A. I cannot assume where this smaller unit was. This is a small
12 unit in terms of its number of personnel. And on a map like this, it can
13 be 4 millimetres on the slopes of Runjevica to the south-west of
14 Runjevica. So I cannot put something there that I cannot see in the text
15 itself. I cannot see the exact position.
16 Q. No, and that's a fair point. I don't want the exact position,
17 and I just -- if you can just mark generally SK so that we can reflect
18 that you agree that this is the feature where the two units fought the
20 A. The question was interpreted --
21 JUDGE ORIE: One second, one second.
22 Mr. McCloskey, we see where it says "1/4,DLPB," we see Runjevica
23 close to the elevation 992 there. If that is the area you are referring
24 to. If that's the area I think the witness said was what was referred
25 to, then we don't need it any further if the map is there. Even without
1 the marking we would know what part is dealt with.
2 Please proceed.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
4 Q. And we see here that this -- the red line to the far left, as we
5 look at it, basically goes in a roughly north/south direction. And from
6 this document, we don't know whether the Skorpions are on the north of
7 the Drina units or the south, do be?
8 A. Well, I cannot see it on the basis of the document either.
9 That's what I said that I --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, do you know or do you not know? If you
11 don't know, please tell us.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know where they were.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, your last two or three minutes have
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Can we go to P07588. Oh, sorry, could we put
16 this in evidence first.
17 JUDGE ORIE: And it's good that you asked already for the next
18 document so that it will be there.
19 Mr. Registrar.
20 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter number 33505 will be Exhibit P7715,
21 Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY:
24 Q. And this is a document from the police force staff to the office
25 of the minister, the Pale police force staff. So this is a MUP document.
1 And this describes the location of the MUP forces as they're laid out,
2 and I briefly would direct you to that. And I specifically note that it
4 "The defence line as far as above Turovi village is held by a PJP
5 company from Doboj and a police company from Jahorina. And on the right
6 of the company from Doboj facing" --
7 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. McCloskey please indicate where he is
8 reading from in the B/C/S. Thank you.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: In the middle.
10 "And on the right of the company from Doboj facing Runjevica, the
11 defence line is held by the Skorpije MUP of Serbia."
12 Now, can we go back to the last map we had up on the board, 7715.
14 Q. Now, sir, it's the position of the Prosecutor that if you go to
15 the Turovi village, which we see in this map in the bottom near the
16 right, and we go up as described, that show -- that would indicate that
17 the Skorpions are to the south of the 1st Battalion of the 4th Light
18 Infantry Brigade. Just take a look at the document a little bit, if
19 you'd like.
20 And I can hand that to you so you can look at the map and the
21 document at the same time.
22 And if you agree or disagree or you don't know, either -- any of
23 those are, of course, appropriate.
24 A. I don't know what the question is.
25 Q. Do you agree with me that based on the information in that
1 report, that that would show that the Skorpion unit are to the south of
2 the Drina Light Infantry Brigade? Because while it doesn't mention the
3 light infantry brigade in that document, it does note the units as going
4 up towards the north, to the Runjevic feature. But, again, I -- I leave
5 that up to you.
6 A. A moment ago, when it was being read out, it said to the right of
7 the Drina Light Infantry Brigade. It's probably a reference to this
8 1st Battalion. And now on this basis it is concluded, according to the
9 text, that it is to the left. So it can be to the left, south-west of
10 the 1st Battalion of the 4th Brigade.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, the time is over.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: I have one more map that would tie this into
15 the indictment --
16 JUDGE ORIE: The time is over. That's -- because otherwise
17 you've spent more time than you asked for. The Defence still needs
18 another 45 minutes, 40 to 45 minutes. They'll get 40. We leave it to
19 that. But let me just consult with my colleagues.
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE ORIE: I'm overruled, Mr. McCloskey. But then we should
22 prepare for at least some -- a little bit of additional time beyond
23 quarter past 2.00. I hope that that will be available. Otherwise we
24 would have to have a session tomorrow for 15 or 20 minutes, which is not
25 something I think the parties were seeking, neither is the Chamber.
1 One map. Try to deal with it as quickly as you can.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we go to 65 ter 33517.
3 Q. You mentioned you looked at the materials, or you know about the
4 Skorpion murders. And this map will be ...
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we -- I think that needs to be gone back a
6 little bit.
7 [Prosecution counsel confer]
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Sorry, my eyes are not seeing what I'm having to
10 Q. What you're seeing is, of course, the Runjevic feature and what
11 we have -- the Prosecution has marked on this map in yellow boxes the
12 co-ordinate of where the -- a body was picked up, and in the area of the
13 mass executions of these people, the house location is where a house that
14 is seen on the video is -- is -- was noted in the -- in the film and the
15 arrival site is along the road where the people were in a -- in a truck.
16 Now, we can see that this execution area is very close to the
17 front line where the Skorpions were wounded on the 23rd of July. My --
18 my last question on this topic is: To pull ten people off a very
19 important defence line, would that not have to be authorised by the
20 superiors in -- in charge of that defence?
21 MR. IVETIC: Objection. Misstates the evidence. The witness on
22 this topic did not say they were pulled from the front line. He said the
23 opposite. It is RM280.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but I don't know whether -- were you quoting
25 the evidence, Mr. McCloskey?
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: No.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey was putting a question to the witness,
3 not necessarily quoting what the evidence was at the time. And
4 therefore --
5 MR. IVETIC: Then foundation.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Foundation is a -- I think that Mr. McCloskey may
7 put this question to the witness. If there's any foundational issue, you
8 can revisit that.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please again put the question to the
11 witness, Mr. McCloskey.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY:
13 Q. Sir, if ten members of a unit were on that front line, would they
14 not have to have the authorisation of their superiors to be pulled off
16 A. No, because this is a MUP unit and we can see on the basis of all
17 of this, they had their own area of responsibility. And I said already
18 at the outset I saw that footage several times. I think that it was made
19 by murderers, professional murderers, with the intention of selling that
20 footage later on and in order to discredit the struggle of the people.
21 JUDGE ORIE: You're going far beyond the question that was put to
22 you and thus you're abusing the time available to Mr. McCloskey.
23 The answer was no.
24 Please proceed.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: I offer this map into evidence.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
2 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter 33517 will be Exhibit P7716, Your Honours.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: And, Mr. President, that ends my presentation. I
4 did -- there was one question related to questions asked by Judge Moloto
5 that I have one document about. I don't want to keep us here. I don't
6 want to us be in court tomorrow, but I do have that. That would maybe
7 take five minutes, I hope.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Let me then first check at all whether we could have
9 a extended session.
10 Mr. Registrar.
11 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Fifteen minutes is, as I'm told, possible. Which
13 means that if you would stop in four minutes from now, we would have a
14 break and resume at a quarter to 2.00 and Mr. Ivetic would have
15 45 minutes.
16 And I see Mr. Mladic is nodding that he agrees.
17 P7716 is admitted into evidence.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: And could we have 65 ter 2318 up on the board.
19 And let's get the Serbian up. And could we blow up the right-hand
21 Q. Sir, we see that this is noted to be a transcript of an
22 audio-taped recording of a conversation between Colonel General
23 Ratko Mladic and Dusan Kozic, prime minister of the RS, 23 October 1995
24 at 1640 hours. And then we see handwritten:
25 "Tosa, they took it all down well, I'm only not sure whom he
1 mentioned in addition to Djukanovic."
2 And then we see this initial. Do you recognise General Mladic's
4 A. No, I have never seen his initials.
5 Q. And it's the Prosecution's position the initials next to that are
6 the initials of Zdravko Tolimir. Have you ever seen Zdravko Tolimir's
8 A. Only signatures on combat documents. I've never seen his
10 Q. And do you know that Tosa was Tolimir's nickname that Mladic used
11 to call him?
12 A. I don't know. I was a young officer at that time, a captain. I
13 was not familiar with that level of command.
14 Q. All right.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's go to page 12 of this transcripted
16 conversation in English, and B/C/S page 11.
17 Q. And they're talking about some sort of a job to do, and Kozic
18 concludes in the middle of the page:
19 "So it means Beara."
20 And Mladic responds:
21 "No, if only it was Beara. Beara wouldn't do anything to bypass
22 the system, anything to bypass my orders. Beara is in the cross-hairs,
23 poor man."
24 And then it goes on.
25 MR. IVETIC: I think the question misstates the document.
1 They're not talking about some kind of job. They're talking about the
2 fallen pilots. So if you're going to present a --
3 JUDGE ORIE: I haven't heard a question yet if I -- apart from
4 that, Mr. Ivetic, you're invited not already to stand when you're still
5 waiting for making an objection, but rather jump up if you make an
7 Please proceed.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY:
9 Q. And that contradicts your view that you expressed earlier, that
10 Colonel Beara would be acting on his own without Mladic's knowledge?
11 MR. IVETIC: Object to the question. Misstates the prior
12 evidence which was in relation to events in Srebrenica. This has not
13 been tied to Srebrenica, at least not in the question, not in the text
14 I've read, and I've read the whole document.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: I agree. It's not about Srebrenica. It's about
16 the relationship between Beara and Mladic.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The objection is overruled.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY:
19 Q. You can answer the question, sir.
20 A. I didn't say that Beara was a renegade in that sense and that he
21 wasn't complying with orders. But what he was doing there and that
22 communication that I saw in the documents indicates that he was doing
23 that on his own as part of his job in co-operation with the subordinate
24 security organs and that he didn't need any approval for that. No
25 special approval.
1 Q. And this particular document suggests that Beara would be very
2 loyal to General Mladic and follow his orders, doesn't it?
3 A. I don't see anything about loyalty. I see that he is
4 subordinate, not in the first line of subordination but the second line
5 of subordination in the Main Staff.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, I think we now really came to the
7 point. The witness has answered this question. We are at the last page
8 of the document.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: You didn't give me a chance to close,
10 Your Honour. That's it.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Do it.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: I close.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Given the closure, I have a follow-up question
15 which I -- which I had earlier but let pass, but now this topic is being
16 come backed to.
17 When we talked about Beara earlier in the day and you said that
18 he did what he did without Mladic's consent, I wanted -- you said Mladic
19 didn't have the jurisdiction to discipline but he could initiate
20 proceedings. Are you aware of any proceedings that he initiated in that
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know whether he ever found
23 out or whether he initiated proceedings.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's not the question. The question is: Are
25 you aware of proceedings that he initiated whether --
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
3 JUDGE ORIE: We'll take a break.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm sorry, Mr. President, could I offer this
5 document into evidence.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Registrar, and could the witness already be
7 escorted out of the courtroom.
8 [The witness stands down]
9 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter 02318 will be Exhibit P7717, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: P7717 is admitted into evidence.
11 We take a break. We'll resume at ten minutes to 2.00.
12 What is not yet on the record is that I said that I saw
13 Mr. Mladic confirming and nodding that he had -- did not object to such
14 an extended session.
15 We take a break and we'll resume at ten minutes to 2.00.
16 --- Recess taken at 1.29 p.m.
17 --- On resuming at 1.50 p.m.
18 [The witness takes the stand]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, you may proceed.
20 Witness, could I you urge you again to try to answer the
21 questions as directly as possible.
22 Please proceed.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand. Good afternoon.
24 Re-examination by Mr. Ivetic:
25 Q. I'd like to look at P1505 which was shown to you today. This was
1 shown to you today in relation to questions relating about orders,
2 relating about tasks, et cetera. Looking at the heading on this
3 document, [Interpretation] "Information for brigade members, submitted
4 to," [In English] is this document a command document, that is to say, an
5 order of any type?
6 A. No, it's not an order. It's just information as envisaged by
7 documents made, prepared in unit commands.
8 Q. Okay.
9 MR. IVETIC: For the next questions we should go into private
11 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
12 [Private session]
11 Page 41919-41922 redacted. Private session.
2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
5 MR. IVETIC:
6 Q. General, at the very beginning of your cross-examination by the
7 Prosecution, you were asked about two documents that had the word
8 "ciscenje," and these were P7664 and P7665. Although Mr. Weber promised
9 that he would get to the definition of that word with you at transcript
10 page 41581, lines 13 through 16, in fact, he did not.
11 Militarily speaking, can you give us a definition of the term
12 "ciscenje teren," or "cleansing of the terrain" in English?
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
14 MR. WEBER: I was just making sure it was working.
15 I believe that the documents didn't refer -- Mr. Ivetic is now
16 asking for a definition of something more than what, I guess, I was
17 referring to. I referred to ciscenje, he's adding the -- now a factor
18 that did not derive from I believe I was originally drawing the attention
20 JUDGE ORIE: If -- well, the main issue is not and I even
21 wondered whether there was any need to tell that did not ask, et cetera.
22 Mr. Ivetic is now asking a question, and we'll later find out whether
23 it's about the same subject as you dealt with or whether there's any
25 Please proceed.
1 MR. IVETIC:
2 Q. General, can you answer. What is the definition of "ciscenje
4 A. In military terminology, clearing or cleansing is a concept that
5 means searching the terrain for armed enemy formations in the area of
6 responsibility, in the area of action, or the area of employment of
7 forces. So within one's own disposition or in the area of use of forces,
8 and it pertains to armed units.
9 Q. In a military sense, is there any difference between ciscenje and
10 ciscenje teren?
11 A. Ciscenje is a general term, whereas clearing the terrain means,
12 in fact, pertains to armed elements armed units, terrorists, sabotage
13 groups, et cetera. That's what cleansing or clearing the terrain would
15 Q. And you were asked about P7667.
16 MR. IVETIC: And I'd like to call that document up on the screen.
17 Q. We see here the document is from the SDB, state security sector.
18 It mentions SDB and MUP. Would either the SDB or MUP, under normal
19 conditions, be services that fall under the command structure of the JNA?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Looking at the appearance and format of this report, does it
22 resemble -- does it have the elements that would be expected of a report
23 sent to a military commander of the JNA?
24 A. I don't see any military elements. I see information or
25 intelligence that falls within their jurisdiction.
1 Q. Early in the cross-examination you were questioned at length
2 about portions of your expert report that rely upon Professor Radinovic.
3 In relation to those paragraphs where you adopted text or conclusions
4 shared by Professor Radinovic, what steps did you take to verify the
5 information at issue before using the same?
6 A. I used the database of the original documents given me for review
7 that I indicated at the beginning of my testimony. That means the
8 database of the forces of the VRS and partly documents of the BiH army
9 and some of the HVO, but there were much less of them.
10 Q. Did Professor Radinovic know that you were preparing an expert
11 report for this case?
12 A. Yes. Naturally, we contact -- we were in contact a lot while he
13 was making his expert report for Karadzic and while I was making mine for
14 this case.
15 Q. Did Professor Radinovic ever voice any objection to your use of
16 materials from his own expert reports?
17 A. No. On the contrary. He gave me himself his material and even
18 his documents and some monographs and books, and sometimes we discussed
19 the findings that he arrived at and that I arrived myself at.
20 MR. IVETIC: If we can now call up P7086.
21 Q. While we wait for it, this was a document you were asked about at
22 transcript page 41578. And we'll see it's from the command of the Birac
23 Brigade and signed by Major Svetozar Andric.
24 Andric testified at this trial, at transcript page 34773 to
25 34775, about this, and I'd like to quote two parts of his testimony about
1 this order to you.
2 The first part is as follows:
3 "This order pertained to all, not only Muslims. Serbs were also
4 moving out because this was a combat area. So at the same time Serbs
5 left, went to Zvornik and Srbinje. In order to protect the people there
6 I ordered that women and children be allowed to go to Kalesija and
7 Gracanica because of combat operations. Then also because of revenge.
8 "People, refugees were coming in from Gracanica, Kalesija, Tuzla,
9 and we had to prevent any kind of revenge that could be taken by them,
10 and that is why I have to say that it is precisely this order of mine
11 that saved thousands of people. Had we left these people in the combat
12 area, I believe that many would not be alive today. So it is precisely
13 this order that contributed.
14 "And later on, we will see that the same persons were exchanged
15 and that to this day they live together with their families."
16 And the second part of the testimony in relation to this document
17 is as follows:
18 "I don't know whether -- well, from the combat zone, both Muslims
19 and Serbs were moved out because that was basically a front line. We did
20 not have any depth in our front, Mr. President. We did not have a depth
21 of the front. We just had the front line. So how could you control what
22 was happening in depth? Just one example: A brigade defends 10 to
23 15 kilometres principle, whereas the zone of my brigade is
24 150 kilometres. 150 kilometres. Along one line you have 100 kilometres
25 in depth. You cannot prevent revenge. You cannot --"
1 And that's where the testimony ended.
2 MR. IVETIC: I see counsel on his feet.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
4 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, just for the record, I do not believe
5 that this fully accurately conveys the testimony related to the document
6 in particular. I would just note that a portion on page 34775 --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, well, if you think it's taken out of context,
8 you have an opportunity to address that later --
9 MR. WEBER: But just for the record, I'm not --
10 JUDGE ORIE: You're inviting Mr. Ivetic to read that to the
11 witness. I have it in front of me so I know exactly what -- that it was
12 a literal quote but it was not all of it.
13 Please proceed.
14 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
15 Q. Do you understand what Andric is talking about in relation to,
16 first, removing people from combat zone, and then, second, this concept
17 depth of the front? From a military perspective what are those two
19 A. As I see it, this testimony represents the actual conditions on
20 the ground. It's one month into the beginning of the civil war and the
21 commander was not able to -- with those forces that had not yet been
22 established as a proper army was not able to control even the front line,
23 let alone behind the lines, and deal with various groups in villages and
24 populated areas. This approach to the departure of the population under
25 the control of the armed forces was, indeed, an act of salvation, an act
1 of rescue, in the whole combat area and in the area of Podrinje
3 Q. If we can now move to P3822 which was also shown to you by the
4 Prosecution. That's at transcript page 41580 and onwards. And once we
5 pull up that document, I'd like to look at the -- exactly the part that
6 the Prosecution highlighted which was section 1b.
7 General, if you look at the text contained in this combat report,
8 in section 1b, and keep in mind my question which is: From a military
9 perspective, if a professionally trained military officer were to receive
10 such a report, would it, in your opinion, put him on notice of any
11 potential wrong-doing on the part of subordinate soldiers?
12 So please read 1b to yourself and then let us know the answer to
13 that question.
14 A. I think the term is used here in the meaning of the basic
15 military concept, and it pertains to armed groups and units in that zone.
16 Q. And now let's keep in mind this document is dated
17 22 September 1992.
18 MR. IVETIC: I'd like to look at an earlier document, P718, which
19 is from the command of the 2nd Romanija Brigade dated 22 August 1992.
20 And if we can go to the second page in both, I'm looking for
21 the -- yes, the very last part of this document that says:
22 "Within this territory in the villages of Micivode, Raktitnica,
23 Kramer Selo, and Novoseoci, there is a certain number of extremists who
24 are peaceful for now. They are not causing problems to the Serbian
25 population but we are keeping them under control."
1 Q. If there are extremists in an area, the same area that was the
2 subject of the last document we looked at, do you consider the military
3 actions that were reported in the previous document to be appropriate to
4 handle extremists?
5 A. I think so.
6 MR. IVETIC: I'd like to look at D130, and this will be dated
7 27 July 1992 from the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, and I would ask that we
8 focus on the second paragraph. It's the second paragraph, part 1. And
9 the translation is a little bit different than the one I have so I'll
10 read from the screen. And it says:
11 "Muslim population surrendered their weapons and lethal assets to
12 representatives of the 2nd Romanija Brigade in the village of Novoseoci,
13 5 to 6 kilometres south of Sokolac, Glasinacko Polje. The surrender was
14 done as agreed, and it is believed not all of the weapons have been
16 In your opinion, would the existence of armed extremists in this
17 area justify the actions of the army that were reported in the report --
18 combat report that we just looked at from September 22nd, 1992?
19 A. Yes, that's simply a necessary measure.
20 Q. Now I'd like to turn to your report.
21 MR. IVETIC: 1D5358, paragraph 4.220 of the same, which should
22 be ... should be on page 177 of the B/C/S, 179 and 180 of the English.
23 Q. This is in relation to the couple that was killed on the Vrbanja
24 bridge. And during cross-examination you were asked about this text
25 being identical only to Wikipedia and not other sources.
1 MR. IVETIC: At this time, I would ask that 65 ter 1D6179 be
2 called up. It is a Serbian-language newspaper, "Kurir," from its web
3 site, dated 18 May 2013. And we have a draft translation that we have
4 prepared and I have a hard copy for the witness, with the help of the
5 usher. And we see here that this publicly available document does talk
6 about the burial in Lukavica, does talk about the burial at the request
7 of Admira's parents in Sarajevo cemetery afterwards.
8 Q. I'd ask to you look at the Serbian original of this document,
9 compare it to paragraph 4.220 of your report, and tell us if this is
10 perhaps one of the other sources that you identified at transcript
11 page 41534, line 24 and onwards, during the cross-examination, in
12 addition to the Wikipedia page?
13 A. This is one of the sources. There were quite a few other papers
14 that provided information about the event. I'm sorry that the essence of
15 the crime was not referred to then, the crime perpetrated by the special
16 forces of the Muslims. Because one can see how monstrous this was, the
17 planning of the crime and its purpose, that was attained within the media
18 war concerning this so-called siege of Sarajevo and the terrorisation of
19 the civilian position.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I put one question to the witness with
21 respect to this.
22 You said you used this also in preparing your report. Why is it
23 not footnoted?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said then as well that with
25 regard to one and the same thing, I would have six or seven sources and
1 then I would refer to one of the sources, simply so that one of these
2 sources could be found there. That's it. That's the main reason. If I
3 were to footnote all the sources that I used, then I would have done
4 that. It's just that I wrote the way any monograph is written. That was
5 my style of writing. So that was one of the sources, so there.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Ivetic.
7 MR. IVETIC: We would tender this to be marked for identification
8 since the English translation is not an official one.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we do so, I just want to say that line of
10 examination was leading, Mr. Ivetic. You could have asked the witness
11 quite simply what other sources did you consult and could lead that,
12 rather than show him this and then ask him: Is this one of the sources
13 that you could have -- that you may have looked at.
14 MR. IVETIC: He was already asked --
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: I just want to put that on the record.
16 MR. IVETIC: And in the transcript section that I referenced, he
17 was already asked and he said he looked at a variety of other sources
18 including other newspaper articles. The Prosecution said this text could
19 only be found in Wikipedia. We found that it's found in other articles
20 as well.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We all know that. We all know that, Mr. Ivetic.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: You could have asked him, you, yourself, what
23 other sources did he consult rather than show him that. That's what's
25 JUDGE ORIE: And just for my ... yes.
1 Please proceed.
2 Mr. Weber.
3 MR. IVETIC: I asked for it to be marked for identification.
4 MR. WEBER: No objection. I believe this just goes to the --
5 further the issue of transparency.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, what number?
7 THE REGISTRAR: It will be MFI D1365, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Is marked for identification.
9 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
10 MR. IVETIC:
11 Q. You were asked at transcript page 41644 about your criticism of
12 civilians in Sarajevo that did not leave the front lines. And that was
13 in relation to paragraph 4.148 of your report, which is at page 153
14 English and Serbian page 150.
15 I'd like to look at a document with you.
16 MR. IVETIC: 1D6180. It is from the International Committee of
17 the Red Cross from their official web site. Again, it's 1D6180.
18 And I'd first like to turn to page 9.
19 Q. And the part under ICRC at the top says:
20 "To fulfil its task of disseminating IHL, the ICRC has delegates
21 around the world teaching armed and security forces that: 'A military
22 objective remains a military objective even if civilian persons are in
23 it. The civilian persons within such an objective or its immediate
24 surrounds share the danger to which it is exposed.'"
25 Is what is written here consistent with your understanding of the
2 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, I just -- continuing the concern
3 expressed by Judge Moloto, I'm a little concerned about just the
4 non-open-ended nature of the information. If there was a question that
5 was posed, that then there's a further explanation of the --
6 MR. IVETIC: Is this consistent with his understanding of the
7 law. We're asking --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, you can also lead a witness in his
9 understanding of the law, so these two are unrelated. The objection is
10 leading. Your answer is: I can lead if it is about the understanding of
11 the law. And I don't think that that's -- that's an exception to the --
12 but -- but let's just -- Mr. Weber has expressed his concern. That's it.
13 You have answered to that.
14 Let's ask the witness to answer -- let's ask the witness to
15 answer the question.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, in this sense, civilian
17 facilities -- civilian buildings taken by military forces are
18 unfortunately targets. And may I present the following position here?
19 Now, I don't know whether this was mistakenly stated to the information.
20 I did not say that civilians, that it was their fault because they didn't
21 take care of themselves. On the contrary. I insisted that military
22 forces and the authorities should have removed civilians on the Serb side
23 and on the Muslim side.
24 MR. IVETIC: If we can tender this document.
25 MR. WEBER: We do object to it. I mean, in the context that it
1 is being offered, it is not clear even in relation to the witness's
2 answer, the relevance is unclear at this time, and we do not have the
3 full context of the document, I believe, even before us.
4 MR. IVETIC: We do have the full document in its entirety. It's,
5 I believe, ten pages or nine pages. It's the law. It's to help
6 Your Honours know the law. It is entered from the bar table. As the
7 Prosecution did with at least 2.000 documents.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Well, strong language doesn't make strong arguments
9 because you always opposed against this calling from the bar table. But
10 if you would like to have it admitted because it's relevant in the
11 context of the testimony of the witness, then ...
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE ORIE: If you would -- could you please upload the relevant
14 page of this 1987 document apparently where it appears, whereas you know
15 that we have extensive 2005 documentation of the ICRC. But if you could
16 upload the relevant page so as to -- so that the Chamber knows the law
17 better, that would be appreciated.
18 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, this entire document of nine pages is
19 a summation of the law published by the ICRC. These are their citations
20 from their official web site. They have the law for Canada, Angola,
21 Belgium, France, United States, it's all in this document with citations.
22 I'm asking for this document to be --
23 JUDGE ORIE: You want the whole of the document.
24 MR. IVETIC: Yes, it's nine pages --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Not only the ICRC part but also Oppenheim, America's
1 Watch, Africa Watch, everything.
2 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Then I think we need further submissions of the
4 parties and also an opportunity to further read the matter because these
5 are complex matters. Civilians inside a military objective is a rather
6 complex legal issue, as you may be aware of, and touches upon other
7 matters as well. I would -- under those circumstances, I would postpone
8 a decision on admission and invite the parties to make further
9 submissions on this way of teaching the law to this Chamber.
10 MR. IVETIC: Okay.
11 JUDGE ORIE: But it could be marked for identification.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D1366, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Marked for identification.
14 And I don't think -- we don't have a translation in B/C/S yet.
15 MR. IVETIC: No, no, no.
16 JUDGE ORIE: That's another reason to mark it for identification.
17 MR. IVETIC: Right.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
19 MR. IVETIC: If we can call up P431 and look at page 35 in the
20 Serbian, page 43 in the English.
21 Q. This was shown to you by Mr. Weber at transcript page 41634 and
22 it is General Mladic's speech at the 16th National Assembly.
23 MR. IVETIC: And I assume that we'll go to the pages that I
24 hopefully cited correctly. My transcript is non-responsive. Again, it's
25 page 35 in the B/C/S and page 43 in the English.
1 And we don't need to read the whole thing but it's there so
2 people can see that I'm not changing the facts.
3 Q. You were asked about the comments of not taking prisoners, and if
4 you read the entire selection, we see that the talk is about mercenaries.
5 And there are no conventions in international law binding to us as far as
6 he, a mercenary, is concerned.
7 What is your knowledge of the status of mercenaries under the
8 Geneva Conventions, especially Article 47 of the Additional Protocols?
9 Do they share protections offered to prisoners of war?
10 A. No. That goes for national legislation as well. That's the way
11 it was in the former SFRY. And that is what the regulations of the newly
12 created states say too. Mercenaries are a category of people who do not
13 enjoy all the protection that imprisoned military personnel do.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, again, you are referring to Article 47
15 of the Additional Protocols, that's in the plural. Does that mean that
16 you meant --
17 MR. IVETIC: I meant protocol.
18 JUDGE ORIE: And then which Additional Protocol did you have in
20 MR. IVETIC: My understanding it is protocol. That's what I have
21 written down, and let me just double-check.
22 JUDGE ORIE: You are aware that there are more than one.
23 MR. IVETIC: Yes, yes. Well --
24 JUDGE ORIE: 1977? Which one were you referring to?
25 MR. IVETIC: I was referring to Additional Protocols. The
1 witness has answered. I can ask the witness if he knows which one.
2 JUDGE ORIE: No, no, no, no --
3 MR. IVETIC: I have the text --
4 JUDGE ORIE: I want you if you refer in a question to
5 Additional Protocols, if there are more of them, and unless you say they
6 all have like common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions, they all have a
7 common Article 47 in those protocols, if you don't say that, then I think
8 you are putting a question which might confuse the witness. Because if
9 there is no such Article 47 common to the Additional Protocols we have a
10 problem in understanding the question. At least I have.
11 MR. IVETIC: AP, Roman I, Article 47.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you are referring to first
13 Additional Protocol.
14 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 Then could you -- specifically the question was directly in
17 relation to Article 47 of the first protocol. Are you aware of the
18 content of it, Witness?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, not directly. That article. I
20 spoke in principle about the difference in status between a mercenary and
21 a military prisoner of war. I am not that familiar with legal norms, so
22 I cannot know exactly what is defined in each and every article.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps you read the relevant portion to the
24 witness. If you insist. And otherwise we'll move on.
25 MR. IVETIC: I was satisfied with his answer especially with the
1 national legislation. I have just one other question and it's to ask him
2 to look at that map which to his left. A copy has been given to the
3 Prosecution last week. We've also seen it this week.
4 Q. Just to see if we can identify if that is one of the maps that
5 was listed as an attachment to his report since this is the one that
6 was -- could not be scanned and had to be sent to me in hard copy and I
7 honestly don't know if this is one of those or not.
8 A. That's not the map.
9 Q. Okay. Then I have no further questions on that map.
10 MR. IVETIC: And, Your Honours, I'm done. I apologise. We've
11 gone a little bit over the time that was foreseen.
12 JUDGE ORIE: I'm looking at you, Mr. Weber, Mr. McCloskey, we
13 really have -- we have an extended session but we should finish in --
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: We have no further questions, Mr. President.
15 JUDGE ORIE: No further questions. Then let me see whether we
16 have any further questions. Let me check one tiny little thing.
17 I have no further questions for you either.
18 Mr. Kovac, this concludes your testimony in this court. I'd like
19 to thank you very much for coming a long way to The Hague and for having
20 waited very patiently a few occasions because your testimony was
21 interrupted several times. We highly appreciated that -- we highly
22 appreciate that you made yourself available in this way. You've answered
23 the questions that were put to you by the parties, by the Bench. We wish
24 you a safe return home again. You may follow the usher.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
1 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, just before the witness is actually
2 excused, we had that handwritten document of the comparison of the
3 paragraphs originally that the witness provided to the Chamber and we do
4 have a present in court. We have no objection to having it being
5 returned to the witness before he leaves. We have scanned it in. I just
6 wanted to raise that.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If -- if you would --
8 The original will you returned to you -- yes.
9 The original is now returned to you. A copy has been made but
10 that you have at least also your own copy, which is the original copy of
11 the notes you made. Thank you again.
12 You may follow the usher.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.
14 [The witness withdrew]
15 JUDGE ORIE: We adjourn for the day and the week, but not after
16 having thanked all those assisting us deeply for, again, their
17 flexibility. It's now for a second day. Also, Mr. Mladic for making it
18 possible for -- to have no session tomorrow, which I think would suit the
19 parties very well. Thanks to all.
20 We adjourn until Monday, the 30th of November, 9.30 in the
21 morning, in this same courtroom, I.
22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.44 p.m.,
23 to be reconvened on Monday, the 30th day of
24 November, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.