Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 449

1 Monday, 10 October 2005

2 [Pre-trial Conference]

3 [Open session]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 3.06 p.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon. I am sorry that some slack

7 technical hitch delayed our start, but we seem to have now all got

8 ourselves present.

9 The purpose this afternoon is to conduct the final Pre-Trial

10 Conference between the parties in preparation for the final commencement

11 tomorrow of the case for the Prosecution.

12 I wonder if the registrar would be kind enough to call the case.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number

14 IT-95-13/1-PT, the Prosecutor versus Mile Mrksic, Miroslav Radic, and

15 Veselin Sljivancanin.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

17 Can I just confirm that each of the accused is able to hear a

18 translation of what is being said in their own language.

19 Mr. Mrksic first.

20 THE ACCUSED MRKSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yes, I can hear

21 in my own language.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much. Yes.

23 Mr. Radic.

24 THE ACCUSED RADIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour.

25 I can hear and understand everything. Thank you.

Page 450

1 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

2 Mr. Sljivancanin.

3 THE ACCUSED SLJIVANCANIN: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your

4 Honour. I can hear everything and everything is in order.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much.

6 Can we now have appearances. Firstly, for the Prosecution.

7 Mr. Moore.

8 MR. MOORE: My name is Moore. I'm a Senior Trial Attorney. I'm

9 represented-- or assisted by Ms. Marie Tuma, Mr. Karim Khan Agha,

10 Ms. Merixtell Regue, and Mr. Alex Demirdjian who sit behind me.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

12 And for the Defence. Firstly for Mr. Mrksic, Mr. Vasic.

13 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour. Good

14 afternoon to one and all in the courtroom. The Defence for Mr. Mrksic

15 will be represented by attorney Miroslav Vasic. Thank you.

16 JUDGE PARKER: And I hope in due course you will receive

17 assistance, but unfortunately not as you might have hoped.

18 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Thank you. We have

19 already taken steps in that direction.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

21 And now for Mr. Radic, Mr. Borovic.

22 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour. The

23 Defence of Miroslav Radic will be represented by myself, Borivoje Borovic,

24 attorney from Belgrade, and co-counsel Mira Tapuskovic, also an attorney

25 from Belgrade. Thank you.

Page 451

1 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much. Yes.

2 And now for Mr. Sljivancanin, Mr. Lukic.

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours; good

4 afternoon to all the participants in the proceedings. The Defence of

5 Mr. Sljivancanin will be represented today by attorneys Novak Lukic and

6 Momcilo Bulatovic.

7 JUDGE PARKER: The parties will be aware but so that it is

8 publicly announced there has been an order made on the 6th of this month

9 assigning the case for trial to this Trial Chamber, and we will be

10 conducting the trial in the months to come.

11 Now, the final Pre-Trial Conference is one for which Rule 73 bis

12 makes provision, and a number of things are there contemplated to be dealt

13 with by the Trial Chamber. I think it fair to say that the parties have

14 felt a little under time pressure in becoming prepared for trial despite

15 what had been earlier understandings and assurances of their trial

16 readiness, so that it is only a matter of some weeks now. I won't

17 embarrass you by saying precisely how many, which I know, that you have

18 had, and in that time there has been quite a deal of adjustment to what

19 had been the case for the Prosecution, and for that reason I think it

20 would not be appropriate at this stage to attempt to finally pin down and

21 make orders about a number of matters that Rule 73 bis contemplates will

22 be finally dealt with at this hearing. I have the impression that it

23 would be fairer for all of you, Prosecution and Defence, if the Chamber is

24 prepared to allow the trial to work its way in a little while you all have

25 time to get more familiar with the new shape of the Prosecution case, and

Page 452

1 the Prosecution has more time to become clear about its witnesses and the

2 evidence it will lead.

3 Don't take this as a lack of determination on the part of the

4 Chamber to keep things moving efficiently, but you can take heart that it

5 is an indication that we will do our best to ensure that everything works

6 fairly. For that reason, we would, while getting an indication from

7 counsel at this stage about certain matters, we will for the most part be

8 avoiding making any final binding order today despite the normal

9 expectation of the Rule.

10 With that long-winded introduction, Mr. Moore, which I hope will

11 give you a little more comfort and confidence, I now turn to you to

12 inquire as to what you see about the number of witnesses you propose to

13 call and the length of the Prosecution case as you presently anticipate

14 it.

15 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much for the comfort. I will endeavour

16 to deal with it as clearly as I can.

17 It is our intention, there are approximately over 80 witnesses at

18 this stage on the Prosecution list. It's certainly our intention to cut

19 that list down significantly. If I may deal with it, I hope, in practical

20 terms, to some extent because of the development of the case there are

21 witnesses that will deal often with scenes or scenarios. It will depend

22 to some extent on the nature of the cross-examination and the issues that

23 will arise, and if that is the case, and I've had full cooperation from my

24 learned friends in relation to that, what I would hope to do is to remove

25 any surplusage on those witnesses that to some extent are extraneous to

Page 453

1 the matters as a whole.

2 I'm very grateful for the realistic approach taken by the Court

3 and the trust that the Court has placed in all of us, but certainly if I

4 may just give a small example of one of the problems that we have. This

5 trial will be proceeding through November. On the original timetable, it

6 was our intention to call originally Mr. -- or Ambassador Okun and some of

7 the military witnesses, as it were, to start, the experts. The Defence

8 asked for 30 days to consider their evidence. It's a perfectly reasonable

9 request, we accept that, made by the Defence. But additionally many of

10 the witnesses from Vukovar themselves are reluctant, quite understandably

11 you think, to come to court between the 18th and the 25th of November

12 because many of their family have been killed at that time.

13 What we're intending to do, and my learned friends are aware of it

14 and I think are in agreement to it, is that we will start with the crime

15 base witnesses, Dr. Bosanac will be the first witness. We will run those

16 witnesses for a period of three weeks because we have to book, as it were,

17 in advance, and then we will stop that area of evidence and proceed with,

18 I hope, Ambassador Okun, perhaps General Pringle. We don't know exactly

19 how long that will take and then presume, if necessary, on the crime base

20 witnesses after that.

21 At this time we have set aside 15 witnesses to deal with the what

22 I will call the original crime base, namely the incidents at the hospital,

23 running towards Vukovar -- or Velepromet itself. On the time span we

24 think that that is probably achievable. We think at that one witness per

25 day is, I hope, a realistic estimate.

Page 454

1 Then it equally arises whether the Court are minded, subject

2 obviously to any submissions by my learned friends, whether they are

3 minded to allow us to implement 89(F) for witnesses that may deal with

4 matters that are already covered but do not deny the Defence the ability

5 to cross-examine perhaps on specific issues that may require

6 clarification.

7 And then thirdly to deal with the 92 bis matters.

8 Can I just say in relation to the 92 bis motion it may well be

9 that my learned friends and I will be able to discuss matters throughout

10 this forthcoming two weeks, and it may well be we'll able to narrow the

11 issues down to very clear areas. That is certainly my aim and I suspect

12 my learned friends probably feel the same way.

13 And then perhaps the fourth category relates to the experts and

14 the pathologists. In particular, I have one pathologist in mind whose

15 name completely I forget at this time, but there is a summary of the

16 injuries, the numbers, the causation of the killings at Ovcara, and it may

17 well be that that can be dealt with by way of agreed facts. If it's dealt

18 with by way of agreed facts, I would have thought we would be able to

19 avoid calling or reading three or four expert witnesses.

20 So as far as the Prosecution are concerned, we will deal with

21 crime base first of all, move on to Okun and Pringle, perhaps Theunens,

22 continue with the Ovcara site, and then deal with the JNA military

23 evidence. That is the -- that is the plan that we have at this stage.

24 And as I say, subject obviously to Court's rulings, the Court's views

25 on 89(F) and 92 bis.

Page 455

1 I hope that helps.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much. And overall do you have any

3 broad anticipation of the time that will might be needed for the

4 Prosecution case at the moment?

5 MR. MOORE: I had thought that if I tried to aim for approximately

6 5/8th, actually I was thinking between 50 and 55 witnesses. If we said

7 approximately a day a witness, that would give, I hope, a sensible

8 estimate of the length of the Prosecution case, which is, I would think,

9 between three and four months. So we would conclude, if we take in the

10 Christmas adjournment, we would conclude I would have hoped by the end of

11 January.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Now, that is certainly more ambitious than we had

13 understood and very encouraging. Our last understanding would have put

14 your case at somewhere near six months.

15 MR. MOORE: Well, can I just say that I really hope that my feet

16 are sufficiently quick to make sure that my -- they are not nailed to the

17 floor, but I will try and deal with this as efficiently and effectively as

18 I can, but I in my mind am going to try and aim for the end of January.

19 But can I ask the Court's indulgence for an element of flexibility on

20 that. Of course the Court may take the view that we are being

21 tremendously dilatory; I don't know. But that is the aim that we have at

22 this moment.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Clearly the position that we have when you get to

24 formal proposals on 89(F) and the outcome of the 92 bis motion which I

25 understand has now been filed but which has not yet reached us will have a

Page 456

1 bearing upon the time that will be taken, and it's not -- there's no way,

2 have no fear, that we could hold you at this moment to any fixed time for

3 completing your case. But to have a general understanding of how long you

4 might see the case is something which will be useful for ourselves and

5 very useful for Defence counsel as they are preparing their case.

6 The object of all of this, as you will understand and as I hope

7 the three accused men will come to understand, is to try and ensure that

8 we finish this case as quickly as fairness will allow, in particular,

9 fairness to be in a position to present your cases with an adequate

10 preparing time to meet the case that is advanced against you. So a

11 quicker finish is desirable, but we keep an eye on fairness.

12 Relevant to that, the Chamber would indicate now first, of course,

13 all will be aware that we have been, while starting the case tomorrow,

14 allowed then a further two weeks effectively to enable some of the

15 difficulties that still exist about pre-trial preparation to be resolved,

16 and in that time we as a Chamber will deal with the 92 bis application and

17 any other matters affecting evidence that need to be dealt with and are

18 ready by that time.

19 We also felt that the Christmas break, the break at late December,

20 early January, would be a time where it would be possible first for the

21 Prosecution to, as it were, give a further reflective consideration to its

22 case and come to some final conclusions perhaps about witnesses that you'd

23 not been able to give full attention to already and to then settle finally

24 your own positions. It would also be a time when the Defence, having by

25 that time heard the Prosecution opening and got into much of their case,

Page 457

1 would be in a much better position to see your own cases and to be getting

2 your own cases under way in preparation having heard what it is that's

3 coming against you.

4 Because of that, the Chamber was of the mind that it might in fact

5 make a slightly longer than normal break over the January --

6 December-January period so that both the Prosecution would be fully

7 prepared and the Defence would be in a much better position to get its

8 cases ready.

9 The object of both of those is to try and ensure that the cases

10 for both Prosecution and Defence will be presented as efficiently as

11 possible rather than all the sorts of delays we encounter if people are

12 struggling to be on top of their case. And by allowing a little extra

13 time then, we hope that the overall time for trial will be shorter. And

14 in particular, at the moment I would suggest that you might plan for

15 having the Christmas break, that December break, start one week earlier

16 than the vacation. And that's relevant, of course, to the preparation of

17 the Prosecution witnesses before the break to have that mind that perhaps

18 Friday, the 9th of December, rather than the following Friday, would be a

19 satisfactory time. We in fact lose only three hearing days by doing that

20 because there are two days that would be taken up normally with a Plenary

21 sitting of the Judges so that we wouldn't be sitting then normally. So we

22 will lose three days of sitting but gain five working days of preparation

23 for both Prosecution and Defence. And it may be that a week at the other

24 end, so giving you in effect five weeks work on your cases rather than

25 three, would achieve what we have in mind, and what we have in mind is

Page 458

1 that the cases for both Prosecution and each one of the Defence, accused,

2 will be able to proceed smoothly and efficiently without wasting of time.

3 We hope that way we can get the estimated time for the total conducting of

4 this trial reduced by quite a considerable amount.

5 In that extra time for preparation, both the two weeks now after

6 the opening and then what could well be two weeks extra over the

7 December-January break, we would hope in particular that a great deal of

8 attention could be given by counsel both for the Prosecution and the

9 Defence to what are the issues that can be resolved between them and

10 agreed or either agreeing facts or agreeing that they really no longer are

11 an issue that's important in the case so that they can be put aside so

12 that everybody's attention can be concentrated on the things that really

13 matter in this case.

14 That might, I hope, Mr. Moore, assist you also in your planning

15 for the time between now and the break in December.

16 MR. MOORE: I had omitted, of course, the two weeks in October,

17 and if we have those additional breaks, and in my submission it's a very

18 good idea to have that slightly longer period over Christmas, I would

19 think there would be a realistic prospect of finishing then by the end of

20 February. I'll see what my learned friends say about that, but we're

21 perfectly agreeable to the proposal.

22 JUDGE PARKER: And I trust all counsel will realise this isn't

23 suggesting you should have two extra weeks skiing. The Chamber is hoping

24 there will be two extra weeks of very profitable work and negotiation

25 between the parties, and that's what is in mind.

Page 459

1 The number of documentary exhibits, Mr. Moore, at the moment there

2 seems a very large number, is that subject to revision?

3 MR. MOORE: Yes, it will be. The exhibits themselves really break

4 into three categories. The first principal category are military exhibits

5 created by the military analyst Mr. Theunens. I have spoken to him about

6 these exhibits, and I've asked whether it's possible to bring them down to

7 a significant -- significantly and to a more manageable number for several

8 reasons. One of them is because we're no longer going into E-court and

9 we're work off paper, and therefore it would be my intention for the Court

10 and everybody to have what I will call a large folder of hard copy

11 exhibits. So those -- I think there are 400 exhibits actually generated

12 by him. I'm not quite sure of the figure but I think it's fairly close to

13 that.

14 The second category of exhibits relates to the analysis, the

15 pathology analysis. I suspect that we can reach some form of agreement in

16 relation to that. I can't for my life imagine that the Defence are going

17 to take any great issue on that, but perhaps they can clarify that.

18 And then thirdly there are what I call general exhibits thrown up

19 by either the witness statement itself, or some of the witnesses here have

20 given evidence in Dokmanovic and Milosevic and often there have been

21 exhibits that come from those trials. Again, it is our aim, and we've

22 already started doing it, to try and slimline the exhibits itself. But in

23 relation to the first two categories, I would have thought that we could

24 have made significant inroads into those.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

Page 460

1 Now, could I turn from you, Mr. Moore, to -- firstly to Mr. Vasic.

2 The -- quite a bit has been said about the anticipated progress of

3 the trial, how it might be managed with time and the length of the

4 Prosecution case. Is there anything at this point that you would like to

5 add about that?

6 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. All I can say

7 is that, rest assured, that the Defence will not go off on a winter

8 holiday, because we'd all like this to be as expeditious as possible. And

9 I highly respect and value the words of my learned friend of the

10 Prosecution.

11 However, I do feel that the programme that was set out by the

12 Prosecution for the examination-in-chief of witnesses in view of the

13 Defence is shorter than would be realistic, and I say that for this

14 reason: The Defence analysed some of the documents that it received from

15 the Prosecution, and we can conclude that quite a large number of

16 witnesses have already testified in four proceedings before different

17 courts. So that's a specific feature of this particular case. We have

18 not encountered an example of that kind before here at the Tribunal, and I

19 consider that that fact in the examination-in-chief if not by my colleague

20 of the Prosecution then in cross-examination by the Defence teams will

21 require longer time for matters to be dealt with that are contained in

22 witness statements in order to get the necessary explanations and

23 reasonable ones. And I think that that must be borne in mind when we talk

24 about how many witnesses we can get through per day. I also hope that

25 both sides will do their utmost to be as efficient as possible, given the

Page 461

1 time available.

2 The other matter that my learned colleague mentioned has to do

3 with the proposal made by the Prosecution in the 92 bis motion, and it

4 received this motion on Friday. So we'll be able to state our views

5 within the deadline as provided for by the Rules of Evidence and

6 Procedure, and the Defence will present its positions and say which

7 witnesses it agrees to have heard under 92 bis and which it does not or,

8 rather, for which it will require cross-examination.

9 The next point is 89(F), Rule 89(F), and I would like to

10 understand it that the proposal made by my learned colleague goes along

11 the lines of what is provided for by the Rules, and that is that

12 Rule 89(F) is indeed an exception of the rule of the presentation --

13 governing the presentation of evidence in these proceedings and that

14 before this Trial Chamber we shall indeed treat it as an exception with

15 each individual case looked at separately.

16 And finally, the Defence for its side will say that it will do its

17 best to meet its obligations, to protect their client's interests in the

18 best possible way. And since we're still not in a position to be able to

19 give you a complete picture of what we intend to do once we have got --

20 receive the material from the Prosecution, that's as far as I will go here

21 today.

22 That's what I wanted to say. Thank you.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Mrksic, thank you for that -- I'm sorry. I

24 trust your client will forgive me. Mr. Vasic.

25 There are two observations. First, the fact that you may have a

Page 462

1 number of transcripts of previous testimony of witnesses available which

2 could well assist in your cross-examination. Could we point out that it

3 may also assist in being able to agree certain matters. If you can see

4 from those transcripts clearly that certain issues are well held and well

5 supported so that it may well be a means of reducing time. And of course

6 if one counsel goes through and explores an area from a past transcript,

7 there ought not to be need for other Defence counsel to go over the same

8 ground for the same purpose. If you would just have that in mind.

9 But the second point, I noticed from the Defence pre-trial

10 position that it appeared that all Prosecution exhibits were to be

11 questioned for authenticity.

12 Now, I hope I misunderstood or misread, but if that is the

13 position that has been tentatively taken, I would certainly, speaking for

14 the Chamber, encourage you and the other two Defence teams to look again,

15 because there must be a large number of those documents that you really

16 are not questioning for authenticity. So please have in mind that when

17 you have this next two weeks to be working on the case that those

18 documents, many of them, are documents which you may want to question some

19 point about but you're not saying this is a forgery, this is a false

20 document, this is a document that isn't a genuine one, whereas the

21 impression that I got from reading what have been put forward suggested

22 you were going to be challenging every document as not authentic.

23 Perhaps you had just bear that in mind. No need to comment on it

24 now.

25 Now, Mr. -- is there something you'd like to respond?

Page 463

1 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Just a few

2 sentences, if I may.

3 As far as the documents are concerned, the Defence in its -- wrote

4 its pre-trial motions under circumstances well known to the Trial Chamber,

5 that is to say, we still did not have most of the material to be disclosed

6 to us by the Prosecution. So the Defence will at all events together

7 with -- cooperate with our learned friends of the Prosecution with respect

8 to determining the authenticity of the documents and their truthfulness to

9 the original. You need have no doubts on that score. Of course, the

10 Defence won't question all the documents tendered by the Prosecution.

11 That would have no sense at all.

12 Now, as far as the previous position is concerned, the position

13 with respect to the witness testimony and transcripts that we have, I am

14 in full agreement that the witness statements and testimony in the

15 transcripts helps us to know what individual witnesses said on occasion,

16 but this also opens up the inconsistency in various witnesses based on the

17 transcripts. So the Defence will need time to go through all those

18 sections in the transcript to be able to establish the authenticity of the

19 witness testimonies.

20 Now, as far as your concern about the fact that the Defence will

21 repeated itself, repeat questions and issues, I hope that won't happen.

22 We always did so up still now together on the basis of joint motions, so I

23 hope that we'll be efficient in preparing for the trial.

24 That's what I wanted to say. Thank you. Just to tell you that

25 the Defence will not do anything that might be seen as an abuse and

Page 464

1 prolongation of the trial.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much for that, Mr. Vasic, yes.

3 Mr. Borovic, is there anything that you want to add?

4 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we are thankful to the

5 Defence of Miroslav Radic and the efforts of this Trial Chamber to extend

6 our deadlines which will raise the quality of our defence for our client.

7 Not only will be able to assess the evidence, both of the Prosecution and

8 the Defence, but this will be in the interests of justice, and we'll be

9 able to see what the Prosecution has laid at our feet so that we can

10 react.

11 As far as 92 bis is concerned, this Defence counsel will set out

12 our positions in writing. We do have certain reservations with respect to

13 what the Prosecution said but we shall do so in writing.

14 The order of witnesses as proposed by the Prosecution is quite all

15 right. We shall need more time. We are doing our best to read through

16 the material very quickly, and we came in early today to collect up all

17 the documents.

18 Now, with respect to the question you asked of the representative

19 of the first Defence team, that is of Mr. Mrksic, whether the large number

20 of statements which are repeated in different trials and proceedings will

21 accelerate and facilitate the criminal proceedings, this will be as

22 follows: In the cross-examination, we of the Defence counsel will extend

23 that time because we listen carefully to the statements and testimony made

24 in different proceedings and reached the conclusion that they are in

25 collision with each other, sometimes completely so. I don't want to bring

Page 465

1 them up now, but that will be the proper time to cross-examine ten or 15

2 important witnesses.

3 All the rest, everything else, this Defence team will of course

4 try to get through in the briefest possible time to be efficient. Our

5 clients have been in detention for a long period of time, and they are

6 very pleased to see that the trial will go ahead. And this trial, of

7 course, realise on a series of other proceedings pertaining to the same

8 criminal act, so that it will be interesting to see this sword match

9 between the Prosecution and the Defence, and I'm sure that this Trial

10 Chamber, judging by the initial steps, will, I'm sure, be able to assess

11 the matter in the right way in the interests of justice.

12 Thank you.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Borovic.

14 Mr. Lukic, is there anything you would want to add?

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't wish to repeat

16 what my colleagues have just said. Would I just like to follow on from

17 what they have stated and raise a practical matter. I'd like to ask this

18 Honourable Trial Chamber for its assistance, although I have already

19 discussed the matter with my colleague of the Prosecution. Precisely

20 because of the situation we're faced with and Mr. Vasic informed you of

21 that situation, that is to say, the vast amount of material for each

22 witness to come into court, it would mean a great deal to us in preparing

23 our Defence cases if we were to be informed in a timely fashion of the

24 order of witnesses, the order in which the witnesses will be taken for,

25 let's say, a two-week period, on the basis of a fortnightly period. Then

Page 466

1 we will be able to divide up our work with the individual witnesses, and I

2 don't suppose that the Prosecution will mind. They have told us of the

3 first witness, but if they could always let us know a fortnight in advance

4 what the order of witnesses is, the witnesses they intend to call. So

5 that would mean a great deal to the Defence teams, and we would

6 of course have the same obligation in the Defence case to send in list of

7 witnesses and order of witnesses to the Prosecution. Of course I know

8 that this order can change from time to time, but to have the basic

9 structure set out well in advance. And it would be a good idea perhaps if

10 we were to hear the Trial Chamber's instructions along those lines, and

11 guidelines.

12 Thank you.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, then, Mr. Lukic. We will come

14 to that just a little later, your specific proposal.

15 Could I ask now to understand, Mr. Moore, the position about

16 disclosure. Has both Rule 66 and Rule 68 now been satisfied?

17 MR. MOORE: My Lord, as far as we're aware, we have fulfilled all

18 our obligations on Rule 66. Rule 68, all disclosure is an ongoing

19 operation, but at this time we have disclosed all matters that are

20 relevant in respect of this case. But we are, as I say, continuing with

21 that.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Very well.

23 MR. MOORE: My Lord, may I just interrupt for one short moment in

24 relation to the submission that my learned friend Mr. Lukic made about the

25 witnesses being two weeks ahead. For our part, we will try and do that,

Page 467

1 as long as there is a clear understanding that sometimes witness orders

2 change. But we will try and do that. I think it's a perfectly reasonable

3 request.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you for that. We might as well finalise that

5 by now. The Trial Chamber had in mind that you would, after Wednesday, be

6 in a position to indicate your first two weeks' of witnesses.

7 MR. MOORE: Yes, My Lord.

8 JUDGE PARKER: And progressively after that you would proceed week

9 by week so that you were in effect always roughly two weeks ahead with

10 what you then anticipated.

11 MR. MOORE: My Lord, we are prepared to do that. Can I just

12 please explain it is not always easy to get witnesses here but we as a

13 matter of principle will endeavour to do that.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Well, I'm sure that there will be understanding on

15 their part just as you will have understanding when it becomes their turn

16 if a witness presents a particular difficulty.

17 MR. MOORE: Yes, My Lord.

18 JUDGE PARKER: From the Chamber's point of view as long as we have

19 a witness and can keep moving that will facilitate the eventual close of

20 the case.

21 So, Mr. Lukic, you have had your persuasive way. Everybody seems

22 content that we will a two-week notification of the coming witnesses and

23 that should facilitate both the Defence during the Prosecution case and

24 the Prosecution during the Defence case.

25 Is there any problem that any Defence counsel wishes to raise now

Page 468

1 about disclosure or is disclosure under control at this stage? If nobody

2 rises, we will assume that there is no problem. Very good. Thank you for

3 that.

4 It's already been mentioned that the expert reports which were

5 required under Rule 94 bis have now been provided, certainly in English.

6 Are they all now provided in B/C/S, Mr. Moore?

7 MR. MOORE: With regard to General Pringle, I brief the B/C/S was

8 disclosed last Friday. In relation to Theunens report, that will require,

9 I believe, another five days and will not be disclosed until approximately

10 the 17th of October.

11 JUDGE PARKER: That will then complete the B/C/S disclosure?

12 MR. MOORE: As far as I'm aware. May I just clarify?

13 [Prosecution counsel confer]

14 MR. MOORE: No, everything is as I thought.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you for that. It does mean that about a week

16 before the commencement of evidence all your expert reports will be

17 disclosed in B/C/S as well as English.

18 I see no reason to ask for any further comment from the Defence

19 there.

20 We have mentioned agreed facts and encourage both sides to pursue

21 their efforts in that regard.

22 The Chamber is aware that there is the outstanding motion to do

23 with Rule 92 bis which has just been filed, which we have yet to see, and

24 we will for our part, as soon as we have both the motion and the Defence

25 response, be in a position to deal with it quickly.

Page 469

1 The Prosecution motion under Rule 65 ter should be published,

2 filed today, and that will enable that to be dealt with.

3 There is a motion of the Prosecution concerning protective

4 measures. That decision -- we have the Defence response, and that

5 decision will be filed in a few days' time. So that it should be that

6 before the commencement of evidence all the presently outstanding motions

7 are dealt with.

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE PARKER: Is there anything else, Mr. Moore, that you would

10 wish to raise?

11 MR. MOORE: My Lord, there are one or two small matters, perhaps

12 more housekeeping than anything else. My learned friends have indicated

13 quite reasonably that they well be wishing to cross-examine the witnesses

14 who have given evidence on previous occasions, for example, either the

15 Dokmanovic or Milosevic trials. Clearly if there's going to be

16 cross-examination on statements whether for -- well, obviously for

17 inconsistency, I can imagine that that will require a large amount of

18 photocopying. Can we take it that the Defence will undertake to photocopy

19 that material and provide it to the Court, because clearly they know the

20 material that they will be dealing with, we don't. So can I just have

21 that clarified, please?

22 JUDGE PARKER: Before I turn to the Defence, from the Chamber's

23 point of view if a counsel intends to cross-examine on a document, the

24 Chamber would expect that counsel to have copies of that document ready

25 for the Chamber, other counsel, and for the witness.

Page 470

1 Now, with that indication, is there anything that you would wish

2 to add, any member of the Defence team?

3 Mr. Vasic first.

4 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Well, on behalf of all the Defence

5 team, precisely what you said. That is what the Defence thinks too. We

6 share your opinion.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Well, that's one part of the house

8 tidy, Mr. Moore. Did I understand there was more than one you wanted to

9 raise?

10 MR. MOORE: No, I think actually that will be sufficient at this

11 time.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Very good. Thank you, then.

13 Well, there seems to be no other matter that needs to be raised

14 now. We have deliberately left some matters in the air, and we will watch

15 them closely and as necessary, and when it becomes practical to do it, it

16 may be necessary for the Chamber to make more formal orders. But in the

17 meantime, we look forward to opening submissions tomorrow from you,

18 Mr. Moore, and the continuation of the case.

19 MR. MOORE: There is one matter. I had placed in front of

20 yourselves the file. Because we will be going on an electronic procedure

21 called Sanction, hopefully it will achieve what it sets out to do, I will

22 be relying on those files in hard copy. They're not quite complete, and

23 my learned friends will also be provided with copies of that. And

24 additionally there will be copies of maps for the Court and my learned

25 friends.

Page 471

1 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you for that.

2 There being no other matter, we will then adjourn until 10.00

3 tomorrow when the case will formally commence. Thank you all.

4 --- Whereupon the Pre-Trial Conference adjourned

5 at 3.57 p.m.