1 Tuesday, 25 October 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.13 a.m.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning. I regret that technical teething

6 problems delayed us with our start this morning. I trust that the three

7 accused can hear me in a language which they understand.

8 THE ACCUSED RADIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours,

9 yes, I can hear. Everything is fine.

10 THE ACCUSED MRKSIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours, I

11 can hear as well.

12 THE ACCUSED SLJIVANCANIN: [Interpretation] Good morning,

13 Your Honours. Everything is fine.

14 JUDGE PARKER: I will not ask that question again during the

15 proceedings but if any one of the accused has a problem understanding what

16 is coming across on the earphones you should draw attention to that

17 problem immediately during the trial.

18 Has there been any change in counsel appearing? I'm looking at

19 Mr. Vasic. Is there any relief at hand for you?

20 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Thank you

21 for inquiring. I hope that today, in the course of today's day, my

22 colleague, Mr. Vladimir Domazet will join me. He is expected to be

23 appointed as co-counsel in this case.

24 JUDGE PARKER: That's good new for you, I'm sure, Mr. Vasic. We

25 look forward to that. I can see all counsel, despite the pillars in the

1 room now. One or two matters of procedure the Chamber would mention

2 briefly. You will all be conscious that at a late stage, it has proved

3 possible to use the new E-Court procedure for this trial. The Chamber is

4 well aware that that may produce difficulties for each team of counsel

5 because there has been only a very short time to prepare your documents

6 for that procedure.

7 We understand, though, that the Prosecution may have been able to

8 get all its intended documents imported into the E-Court system. If that

9 is so, it will perhaps greatly facilitate the presentation of the

10 Prosecution case. But it would seem extremely unlikely that the Defence

11 is yet in that position. The Chamber well understands that you have not

12 had adequate time and we would therefore indicate that in the early stages

13 of the trial, if the Defence finds that it needs a document or documents

14 which it has not been able to import into the E-Court system, the Chamber

15 will readily understand that and paper documents may be used instead of

16 the electronic version.

17 I emphasise that is in the early stages so that efforts should be

18 made to get your documents organised and into the new court system as soon

19 as possible.

20 Both -- generally for the first few days, there will be special

21 technical assistance available to all parties with the E-Court system, but

22 in addition, we understand that for a period at least there will be

23 available specifically to the Defence special technical assistance to

24 assist it with adjusting to the new procedure.

25 That -- the need for that assistance will be monitored. It may

1 well be that it will be convenient for that assistance to be maintained,

2 at least until after the normal vacation in December/January, when there

3 will be opportunity for the -- each team of the Defence to get their --

4 the papers they anticipate needing for their cases organised into the

5 E-Court system. But that will be monitored as we progress.

6 There are two issues about which we would invite very brief

7 submissions of counsel, not now. We will alert you to the issues and

8 either by the end of today or tomorrow, depending on the convenience of

9 the progress of the evidence, we will hear brief submissions.

10 The first is that under Article 5 of the E-Court practice

11 direction, a time is to be fixed by the Chamber by which the -- in the

12 eloquent language of E-Court the daily bucket of documents is to occur.

13 That is when the documents that will be required for a particular day are

14 to be actually made available to the Registry so that they can be

15 prepared. Now, the issue, I would suggest, is whether that should occur

16 24 hours or 48 hours before the commencement of the day when the documents

17 will be required. This will be a matter that will equally affect

18 Prosecution and Defence because in due course the Defence will be faced

19 with the same issue. Obviously, it would be easier for counsel if it was

20 only 24 hours, but that limits the time available for action.

21 The time for the daily bucket is also connected to the next issue,

22 the second issue upon which we would receive submissions shortly, and that

23 is whether, once the documents are made available to the Court officer in

24 what I've described as the daily bucket, whether they should also then be

25 made available to the other parties. The -- there are two approaches to

1 this issue. One of them is that documents would not be available to the

2 other parties until they are actually called for in court. The difficulty

3 with that is surprise. The I impracticality and inconvenience of that

4 occurring when counsel will always be taken by surprise by some documents

5 that appear.

6 The particular importance of that in this case arises because of

7 indications in the pre-trial briefs of the Defence that there is objection

8 intended to the authenticity of many Prosecution documents. If there

9 really is to be dispute as to the authenticity of documents, that needs to

10 be known before because the Prosecution will need to bring in the original

11 document if the authenticity is being disputed. It won't be normally

12 possible to have the original document or at least the best copy of it

13 that is available in paper form in court if there is no early notification

14 that a particular document is disputed as to its authenticity. Therefore,

15 it would be most convenient for ensuring the smooth and quick and

16 efficient progress of evidence if documents were provided 48 hours before

17 they were required, not only to the court officer but also to the other

18 parties. And this, of course, would apply both during the Prosecution

19 case and during the case of each of the accused.

20 Then 24 hours before the day in question, the other parties could

21 specifically notify which documents, if any, they disputed as to

22 authenticity, which would then allow the party calling the witness and

23 using the document to have the original or the best paper copy available,

24 ready in court when the document is actually to be used.

25 Now, having put that as a possibility, we will allow counsel to

1 reflect on it and then we'll hear very brief submissions about those two

2 issues at a convenient time, either later today or early tomorrow.

3 There will be some documents which will obviously not be

4 convenient to fully comprehend in the E-Court form. The Chamber, in

5 particular, has on mind maps, photo boards, photographs, sketches and the

6 like. We would indicate to parties who intend to rely on any of those

7 that they should also be prepared to provide paper versions of those. I'm

8 sure all of you have tried at some time or other to study a large map on a

9 small electronic screen, and you will understand what the Chamber is

10 saying when it says that it's often impractical in the electronic form.

11 Where a paper copy is being used in any of the situations that

12 we've mentioned, obviously the party relying on the paper copy will need

13 to provide paper copies to all other parties and to the Chamber, so they

14 will need to be prepared in that way as has been the case to date in all

15 trials that did not use the electronic court system.

16 Now, so far as practicable, the Registry court officer will keep

17 in electronic form each exhibit admitted in the course of the proceedings.

18 Where the original of a document or a paper copy of the document is

19 tendered as the exhibit, such as when the authenticity of a document is

20 questioned or there is a large map, the paper copy of that document, that

21 is the original or the best paper copy available, will be the authentic

22 version of the exhibit, and not the electronic form.

23 Now, they are the procedural matters which the Chamber presently

24 anticipates. There will be one or two more as we adjust into the

25 functioning of the new electronic system.

1 Could I also mention for the assistance of parties that the

2 decisions on the late pre-trial motions that were placed before us in the

3 last week should be expected to be available to you today. And looking

4 ahead, tomorrow morning this Court will be used at 8.30 by another court

5 for what is expected to be a short hearing. Nevertheless, out of caution

6 and for the convenience of everybody, we think we should fix a later time

7 for starting than 9.00 a.m. to ensure that the previous hearing is

8 completed and that the tapes can be recharged and everybody ready. So we

9 would not anticipate being able to start tomorrow before 9.30, rather than

10 at 9.00.

11 All that having been said, Mr. Moore, we look to you now to

12 commence the evidence.

13 MR. MOORE: I think, for the record, I should introduce who I

14 appear with today. I think it's expected on each morning. I appear

15 behalf obviously on behalf of the Prosecution. I'm assisted by

16 Mr. Alex Demirdjian and Ms. Sandra D'Angelo.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Could I indicate that we would normally not trouble

18 counsel to announce movements within the announced team of counsel day by

19 day, but if you arrive with a stranger most certainly announce the new

20 member of the counsel team.

21 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much. And may I just deal with one or

22 two preliminary matters which I have had an opportunity of speaking to my

23 learned friends this morning about? It relates to our first witness,

24 Dr. Bosanac. I went on mission last week and came back late on Thursday

25 night. I saw Dr. Bosanac when I was there and had access to certain

1 material. That has been brought by her to The Hague last night. I again

2 saw her for approximately two hours. There is material which is clearly

3 relevant but has not been disclosed as yet. It relates to records of

4 patients who underwent treatment over a period of time. It has been put

5 into computer form and clearly that has now been brought to OTP, and today

6 is being given its ERN number.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please speak into the

8 microphone?

9 MR. MOORE: My learned friends clearly have not seen the

10 documentation. I suspect Dr. Bosanac will refer to lists and numbers.

11 With the agreement of the Defence what has been suggested is that this

12 topic should not be dealt with by her today or tomorrow but, subject

13 obviously to the Court's leave, that she be recalled if it's necessary to

14 deal with those topics.

15 May I just indicate why it's a matter that cannot be dealt with?

16 What occurred apparently, and I think it's accepted by the Defence, is

17 that patients' records were removed from the hospital in November 1991 and

18 they have never been recovered even though they have been requested by the

19 Office of the Prosecutor. I make no criticism or comment on that. This

20 seems to be a compilation of those records which was subsequently created

21 by others and so therefore it did not manifest itself until I inquired,

22 whether in actual fact there was any documentation in relation to it. So

23 can I just place the Court on notice in relation to that matter? It will

24 not affect the hearing in any way for Dr. Bosanac immediately.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Moore.

1 MR. MOORE: Might I call, please, then, Dr. Vesna Bosanac.

2 [The witness entered court]

3 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning, doctor.

4 THE WITNESS: Good morning.

5 JUDGE PARKER: I understand you have an injury to your ankle. If

6 you need any different support for it or if it's giving you pain and

7 difficulty at any time, please indicate and we will adjourn or try to make

8 some arrangements to help you.

9 Would you please take in your hand, as you sit, the affirmation

10 card and read it aloud, please.

11 WITNESS: VESNA BOSANAC

12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

14 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much.

16 Now, Mr. Moore will ask some questions of you.

17 Examined by Mr. Moore:

18 Q. What is your full name, please?

19 A. Vesna Bosanac.

20 Q. And what is your current occupation?

21 A. I'm the director of the Vukovar general hospital.

22 Q. I think it is correct that you are a doctor of medicine; is that

23 correct?

24 A. Yes. That's right. I am a physician and I am a paediatrician. I

25 also have a master of science degree.

1 Q. It's correct, I think, that you qualified as a doctor of medicine

2 on the 2nd of October in 1972 at Zagreb.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, would you please outline to the Court your specialty with

5 regard to your medical experience.

6 A. I completed my medical studies in Zagreb. These studies go on for

7 five years. Following that, I worked for one year as a doctor completing

8 my internship in Zagreb, and in 1974, I started working as a general

9 practitioner at the children diseases ward.

10 Q. And after --

11 A. In 1977, I started my residency training in Zagreb, which I

12 completed in 1981.

13 Q. Now, after 1981, what did you then do?

14 A. I started working as a paediatrician, as a specialist, at the

15 children's ward at the medical centre in Vukovar. I also started my

16 master degree studies and completed a master thesis in social paediatrics

17 in 1983 in Zagreb.

18 Q. Is it right that you were then appointed -- in or on the 25th of

19 July 1991, you were appointed the director of the Vukovar general

20 hospital? Is that right?

21 A. Yes. It was actually called the medical centre because in

22 addition to the hospital, the medical centre also comprised all local

23 health centres. It had them under its jurisdiction.

24 Q. Can you in very brief outline tell us what the director of the

25 Vukovar general hospital did by way of its role and function?

1 A. This was a very responsible post, and a very difficult one,

2 because at the time in the vicinity of Vukovar, there were already many

3 shells landing. The war had already started. We had to organise the work

4 of the entire health services in the vicinity of Vukovar as well as at the

5 hospital itself.

6 Q. I'd like you to look, please, at a short videotape of the Vukovar

7 Hospital which was taken on and around the 20th of November 1991, and when

8 it's concluded I will ask you some questions about it.

9 MR. MOORE: This is to be played in the Sanction format.

10 [Videotape played]

11 MR. MOORE:

12 Q. Doctor, can I just break it into parts? We see the steps as you

13 enter the Vukovar Hospital, is that right? It's the front of the hospital

14 itself?

15 A. Yes. We just saw the main entrance into the hospital, which was

16 open on the 19th of November, when actually a large number of civilians

17 from the vicinity came to the hospital in order to find shelter there.

18 Q. And the photograph we are now looking at, where is that and where

19 does it go to, please?

20 A. Could you please rewind back just a little bit?

21 [Videotape played]

22 JUDGE PARKER: Isn't that going forward rather than back?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it's going forward now.

24 MR. MOORE:

25 Q. Are you able to tell us where that is?

1 A. This is the entrance leading into the hallway leading to the

2 basement of the main hospital building.

3 [Videotape played]

4 MR. MOORE:

5 Q. And, doctor, do you know where that is, please?

6 A. This is a part of the basement area, where the wounded and the

7 patients were placed.

8 Q. And are you able to assist us with regard to the -- the density of

9 the patients? Was this typical or untypical of the hospital as a whole?

10 JUDGE PARKER: Could I just interrupt, Mr. Moore?

11 Mr. Vasic?

12 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours. I

13 apologise to my learned friend but perhaps it would be useful for everyone

14 what I'm about to propose. Since the witness is testifying about certain

15 segments of the videotape, perhaps it would be good if the transcript

16 reflected the time indicated on the tape so that we could later on know

17 exactly to which part of the videotape certain portions of testimony

18 relate to, since we can see the time indicated here on the screen, and

19 this is related to certain portions of the testimony. Otherwise, once we

20 read the transcript later on, without the footage, we won't be able to

21 connect the testimony to the footage.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Vasic.

23 Mr. Moore, I think you'll be able to accommodate that suggestion.

24 MR. MOORE: Yes, we've already been doing that and I can assist in

25 respect of that. I'll do it on each and every occasion I stop, read it

1 out so that it goes into the record.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. We are now at 58.4.

3 MR. MOORE: Yes, thank you very much.

4 Q. So the question, doctor, I don't know if you answered it or not,

5 was: The density of beds that we see here, was that typical for the

6 hospital or not?

7 A. Well, this was typical, yes, especially throughout the last two

8 weeks, before the final occupation of Vukovar itself and the hospital. We

9 were not able to evacuate the wounded and sick. We were in no position to

10 take them to their houses, since the town was being shelled by planes and

11 mortars on a daily basis. Nor were we able to evacuate them into any of

12 the nearby civilian shelters where we had medical assistance set up and

13 medical care too, because all the routes, evacuation routes, were cut off

14 to the spare shelter at the commerce Komerc building in Borovo Naselje.

15 So that all the wounded who were brought to the hospital had to stay

16 there. Many of them were lying on the floor. And the situation was truly

17 difficult.

18 [Videotape played]

19 MR. MOORE:

20 Q. Can we deal, please, with the freeze frame at 114.8? Which part

21 of the hospital are we now looking at, please?

22 A. We are looking at a room in the atomic shelter. This room was

23 specially equipped for very serious patients, for women about to give

24 birth, or for wounded children. This was the only shelter that was safe

25 from being pierced by a plane missile or any of the shells that were

1 falling on the hospital on a daily basis.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 [Videotape played]

4 MR. MOORE: Again I'd like to deal with freeze frame 1.24.7.

5 Q. Which part of the hospital is this, please?

6 A. This is an underground corridor leading from the so-called old

7 hospital building to the so-called new hospital building, where seriously

8 wounded people were accommodated and looked after. Those who -- whose

9 wounds needed to be dressed at least two or three times a day.

10 [Videotape played]

11 MR. MOORE:

12 Q. Can I ask you, please, freeze frame 1.38.9, this appears to be a

13 bed within the hospital. Are you able to recognise it or not? I don't

14 mean the exact room itself but its location.

15 A. This image shows one of the rooms on the second floor of the new

16 building.

17 Q. And were you able to accommodate any patients on the upper floors

18 of the hospital in November?

19 A. No, of course not. Hundreds of shells and grenades were falling

20 on a daily basis. That would have been very risky.

21 Q. And how many floors has the hospital, if we take the ground as

22 being the ground, you say this is the second. Were there any floors above

23 it?

24 A. There was an attic.

25 Q. If we look at the photograph for a moment and we look at the wall

1 on the right-hand side, are you able to say what has caused the damage on

2 the wall?

3 A. Damage was caused by a shell which was fired from the south of the

4 town, a section that was occupied by the JNA, by the Yugoslav army. What

5 we can see, if we look through the window in this image, is the old

6 hospital building which, as you can see, was also badly damaged.

7 Q. Can I just deal, please, with this building? How many actual

8 rooms, in peace time, did you have that could be used for accommodating

9 patients?

10 A. In peace time, we had 72 rooms on each of the floors. There were

11 rooms for the hospital's personnel. We had surgery rooms. We had

12 intensive care units. Both before the war and now, we have three floors

13 for our patients. The ground floor, the first and second floors in the

14 cellar that is underground, we have diagnostics, we have x-ray, we have

15 laboratories. During the war, during the intense attacks on the hospital,

16 those that began on the 15th of August 1991, all the work that the

17 hospital did went on underground, that is diagnostics, treatment and

18 surgery.

19 Q. I know it's extremely difficult, or I assume it would be difficult

20 to assess, but are you able to give an indication to the Court when it was

21 you were unable to use these rooms for patients? Can you tell us the

22 month or how it progressed?

23 A. In August we were no longer able to use those rooms. In early

24 August, we prepared the basement and the atomic shelter for use. On the

25 15th, I remember, because it's a holiday where I come from, we had a drill

1 on how we could get as fast as possible from the upper floors, from the

2 wards on the upper floors and have the patients evacuated to the shelter

3 in case of heavy air attacks. That was also when the first rounds of

4 shelling began and soon the planes were used to -- soon after, we were no

5 longer able to leave the shelter at all. I'm talking about the shelter

6 where our patients were.

7 Q. I just want to deal with one side issue before I continue with

8 this. You've mentioned shelling. You've mentioned planes. Did the

9 hospital take any steps to indicate or to demonstrate that you were a

10 hospital?

11 A. When the early attacks on the hospital began, the first shell

12 landed on the old hospital administration. I phoned the barracks

13 commander in Vukovar and protested in the strongest possible terms that

14 the hospital was being shelled. After that, we obtained two large signs

15 from the Red Cross, two large Red Cross signs on white canvass.

16 Q. And where did you place those Red Cross signs?

17 A. One was placed on the roof of the present administration building.

18 It was the pulmonary ward. At the time the infected ward, that roof was

19 slightly lower so our workers could reach it. The other sign that we had

20 was spread out over the meadow between the two hospital buildings so it

21 could clearly be seen from the air. It was a rather huge piece of

22 canvass. It was white with a red cross on it. Soon after, however, we

23 realised that the bombs and shells were falling precisely on that Red

24 Cross sign and there were many people who said that we should never have

25 placed those signs there to begin with, since they could be used as

1 targets by JNA planes.

2 Q. Can you just assist me by looking at this photograph? You have

3 got clearly in the distance as you ever indicated I think the old billing;

4 is that right? And this photograph is from the new building, is that

5 equally correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Can we then just consider -- you referred to the meadow where the

8 Red Cross sign was placed. Is it within the vision of the photograph?

9 Can we see where it would be placed or not?

10 A. This specific place is a bit further to the left. You can't see

11 it here but further to the left there is a meadow, an area with grass,

12 where this piece of canvass with the Red Cross on it was placed. There

13 are photographs where that can clearly be seen.

14 Q. And before we move off - perhaps it's the kiss of death to say

15 finally - are you able to work out or estimate how many times your

16 hospital was hit directly by either bombs or artillery shells from August

17 until about the 20th or 18th of November? Can you give the Court a

18 general estimate?

19 A. Between the 15th of August and the 18th of November, each and

20 every day, between 80 and 90 different bombs, missiles, plane bombs or

21 shells were landing on the hospital, each and every day, I say, except on

22 the day of the convoy's evacuation conducted by the Medecins Sans

23 Frontieres in October.

24 Q. Thank you very much. I want to continue now playing the tape.

25 [Videotape played]

1 MR. MOORE:

2 Q. Can we deal with the actual number of people who were in the

3 hospital, let us say, the 18th of November as a guide?

4 A. On the 18th of November, there were about 450 patients and wounded

5 in the hospital. Those were registered as patients of the hospital.

6 However, on that day, and the next day, plenty of wounded and sick people

7 started streaming into the hospital from the nearby shelters, from the

8 centre of town, who had stayed in the cellars of those buildings and other

9 civilian shelters around town. It is difficult for me to give you an

10 exact figure of patients and wounded persons who were actually in the

11 hospital on the 18th November. One thing we do know for certain, because

12 we produced lists, evacuation lists of hospital patients, is that there

13 were about 450 of them. We had to notify the ministry in Zagreb about the

14 numbers of patients who were not able to move, and those who could still

15 be transported on buses. In addition to the wounded and sick, there were

16 about 300 hospital personnel, physicians, nurses, cleaning ladies,

17 drivers, handymen and their families, their children, wives, husbands.

18 My plan or my idea at the time was that about 700 people would

19 need to be evacuated from the hospital. It's a number that I remember

20 because that was the number of meals that we prepared in the last

21 difficult days when we had no running water, no electricity. On the 18th

22 and 19th of November, as I said, huge numbers of people started coming to

23 the hospital. There were over 500 people who arrived on those two days

24 because it was expected that an evacuation would take place.

25 Q. Thank you. In relation to the number of patients, are you able to

1 assess what percentage would be civilian and what percentage non-civilian?

2 When I say non-civilian, I'm considering perhaps people who had been

3 fighting in the defence of Vukovar or police. Are you able to

4 distinguish -- were you able to distinguish between those two very general

5 categories or not?

6 A. Roughly speaking, yes. It's difficult or impossible to be very

7 specific about numbers, since all the information, all the case histories,

8 of all the patients remained in the hospital building. We had prepared

9 everything for the evacuation. However, only some of the patients and

10 wounded were allowed to bring their case histories with them. Most of the

11 medical files stayed behind inside the hospital building. I myself was

12 taken away on the 20th, early in the morning. I was taken to the

13 barracks. I was arrested and placed in detention.

14 The last time I testified here in The Hague, I asked the Court to

15 try and obtain those medical files for the simple reason that there were

16 many patients, many sick people, who were in the hospital on those days.

17 I'm now talking about all the wounded, all of Vukovar's defenders, all of

18 the police officers, the wounded soldiers of the JNA, the wounded

19 civilians, who were evacuated into Croatian territory. I'm talking about

20 the wounded civilians who stayed behind, who stayed in Vukovar or were

21 later evacuated to Yugoslavia.

22 As we speak, there is not a single medical file dated 1991 at the

23 Vukovar Hospital. There are earlier files, there are later files, but

24 1991 has been as good as wiped out. I have appealed to the Court already

25 to talk to those in charge. Rumour has it that the files were taken to

1 the military medical academy in Belgrade. It would be very important for

2 those files to be given back, if for no other reason it would allow all

3 the patients who were being treated in Vukovar at the time to have access

4 to accurate information on the injuries sustained and their illness. As

5 we speak, most of those can no longer move and are handicapped.

6 Q. Doctor, can I just repeat the question? Thank you very much. Are

7 you able in general terms to distinguish between the percentage of what I

8 will call civilians and non-civilians at approximately mid-November?

9 A. In mid-November, the ratio was about 50/50; 50 per cent civilians

10 and 50 per cent wounded defenders and policemen. I can't say that this is

11 necessarily accurate. Sometimes my impression is that there were more

12 civilians on that day because wounded civilians were being brought into

13 the hospital. On some days, there seemed to be more defenders but I would

14 say, roughly speaking, the ratio was 50/50.

15 Q. And with regard to the civilians themselves, are you able to help

16 the Court in assessing the ratio of male-female? Or children?

17 A. I have considerable information on that, which I have studied on

18 many occasions. This is based on a database that we had, which before the

19 occupation we used to fax this information to our medical headquarters.

20 We analysed the information. It is very difficult to establish accurate

21 figures because we do not have all the files, but if you would like me to,

22 I would perhaps be able to tell you the number of those who were killed,

23 those who went missing, and those who were wounded in Vukovar. The

24 percentage is very high compared to Croatia in its entirety and to our

25 specific area so --

1 Q. Dr. Bosanac, I'm sorry to stop you for a moment. Can I come back

2 to the question, please? It's my fault perhaps for not putting it

3 precisely. Can you indicate to the Court approximately, when one looks at

4 the civilian category, how many would be female or children as opposed to

5 male? Let's just deal with the civilian and the distinction between male,

6 female, children. Can you do that for us?

7 A. Roughly speaking, as I say, between 70 and 80 per cent of the

8 civilians were men and about 15 per cent women.

9 Q. And --

10 A. As for children, wounded children, there was a relatively small

11 percentage. It's a very difficult situation each time a child is wounded.

12 We used to keep children safe in underground shelters despite which there

13 were about 50 children who were wounded.

14 Q. Can we deal --

15 A. That's based on what I know.

16 Q. Thank you. Can we deal, then, with the injuries, the cause of the

17 injuries to the civilians, please? Are you able, again in general terms,

18 assist the Court with what has caused the injuries to the civilians, male,

19 female, children?

20 A. I can't say that with any degree of certainty. Most of the

21 injuries were caused by shells and bombs. For example, a ground floor

22 flat in the neighbourhood of Mitnica was destroyed by a shell. It was a

23 single shell which killed two children, injuring 11. Most of those

24 injured and killed died as a result of JNA shelling. Shells and bombs

25 destroyed virtually the entire town.

1 Just over the last few days I've been thinking about something

2 which I want to share with the Tribunal. Vukovar had 45.000 inhabitants

3 before the war. Over those three months, it was entirely destroyed. This

4 compares to the following situation. It's as if someone were to use

5 planes bombs and grenades to raze the Hague itself to the ground. That's

6 relative to the respective sizes of these two towns, needless to say.

7 Q. Doctor, can I deal, then, please, with the method, what I will

8 call the method of delivery of those bombs? You have mentioned

9 aeroplanes. How regularly did you see aeroplanes flying over Vukovar and

10 drop its bombs?

11 A. Initially, in August and September, it would be once to twice a

12 week. In October, it was practically every day, as well as in November.

13 On the day of the evacuation in October, the evacuation that was organised

14 by Medecins Sans Frontieres, there were no shells. It was a calm day.

15 Q. It might be suggested that these bombs coming from aeroplanes were

16 on targeted military or military targets. Are you able to assist the

17 court whether that is correct or not, from your own personal knowledge?

18 A. I don't know what the term "military target" means, because in

19 Vukovar, the military targets during the occupation and during the

20 blockade, could be, for example, the following: The headquarters of the

21 defenders of the city. It was perhaps one kilometre away from the

22 hospital. The police were stationed in the vicinity of the hospital,

23 perhaps some 200 metres from the hospital. However, the hospital was

24 clearly marked by the Red Cross sign. I heard from the people in Mitnica,

25 which is a settlement located in the border area, where there were

1 absolutely no military targets, that planes were dropping bombs on a daily

2 basis, some of which would start a fire upon hitting the ground, a fire

3 that would consume everything around it. So based on what I know about

4 that, I simply cannot accept this theory that it was the military targets

5 that were targeted in Vukovar, unless the Yugoslav People's Army believed

6 that the entire city of Vukovar was a military target and ought to be

7 completely destroyed.

8 Q. Can you remember the date when the planes started bombing?

9 A. Yes. I do remember. It was on the 25th of August when it

10 happened the first time. That was the day after a group of JNA soldiers

11 was taken from the hospital to the barracks, and a bomb was dropped on the

12 city museum from a plane. There were numerous occasions when bombs were

13 dropped from the planes in the courtyard of the hospital or on the

14 hospital building itself, as well as the two hospital buildings, the

15 former administration building, and the current administration building

16 were all destroyed. I remember that on the 4th of October, two air bombs

17 were dropped simultaneously on the building. One exploded on the first

18 floor and destroyed the rooms on the first and second floor, which can be

19 seen on one of the photographs showing the front facade of the new

20 building. The other bomb went through all five storeys from the roof down

21 to the atomic shelter. However, it did not explode but, rather, landed on

22 a bed where a patient lay.

23 Q. I think it's right to say, fortunately, it didn't hit the patient

24 but ended between his legs; is that right?

25 A. Yes. That's right. It landed at the bottom of the bed, broke

1 down the bed, and the patient was propelled by that impact and landed on

2 the bomb itself. The patient survived. I remember him to this day.

3 After the occupation, this person remained in Vukovar, but he's doing well

4 now. He's alive.

5 Q. Thank you. The River Danube, as I call it, flows by Vukovar.

6 That's correct, I think, isn't it?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. I'd like to --

9 A. Yes. It runs next to Vukovar.

10 Q. On the other bank of the Danube, are you able to assist the Court

11 if whether there were any military forces, Serb military forces or JNA

12 military forces, located there? And if they were there, what were they

13 doing?

14 A. Yes. I can tell you for a fact that there were tanks there, the

15 JNA tanks. I assume they were the JNA tanks. And they were dug in on the

16 left bank of the Danube, directly targeting the city of Vukovar and the

17 hospital. I saw this personally.

18 Q. You said that you saw it personally. Did you ever personally see

19 your hospital being hit by what I will call tank or artillery fire from

20 that bank?

21 A. I saw that. And I saw that very frequently, almost daily.

22 Q. I may return to this topic but I would like to move on to another

23 area, if I may. I think it's right to say that throughout September,

24 October, November, you were in contact with various, what I will call

25 peace missions, about what you described as the attack on Vukovar, is that

1 right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. I'm going to refer you now to a series of faxes which we are going

4 to, with the Court's leave, exhibit. To assist the court, because of the

5 problems with -- of course, they weren't problems, but with E-Court and

6 the possibility that certain matters could not be downloaded into the

7 daily bucket, I created hard copies for all parties just in case the

8 miracle of E-Court would continue. So I have got files that are present

9 for Your Honours and my learned friends, and I can certainly call out the

10 number of the exhibits, but I for my part would like to go through the

11 hard copy and I have similar file for Dr. Bosanac to assist her. So it's

12 going to be almost a hybrid presentation.

13 JUDGE PARKER: That will be convenient, as long as you make it

14 clear to the Court registry officer each time which document it is that

15 you're turning to in the electronic court numbering so that he can

16 identify it.

17 MR. MOORE: I'm informed actually it's going to be on Sanction,

18 not E-Court, but we will be able to give the numbers so it will not create

19 any difficulties for the Registry. We have got records. If there is any

20 difficulties the Registry can notify me or indeed we can go over them

21 afterwards.

22 JUDGE PARKER: The concern is that the record, electronically,

23 ought to clearly be able to be identified with your questioning. So that

24 we need to be sure that the electronic number document in the Court system

25 is identified as the witness speaks about a document. So we leave that to

1 you to achieve by a miracle of humanity, if not by a miracle of

2 electronics.

3 MR. MOORE: The first document which I hope to refer to has got

4 what I will call the ter number 996 and it should be 0 -- in English this

5 is, 0117/2493. Now, if it assists all parties, the way I have done it

6 with the hard copy is that they are all tabulated. There is the

7 translation into English and the original itself. And with the hard

8 copies, there should be an index. We have got tab 1, 2, continuing on the

9 left-hand side. It's at divider 3 on the hard copies. So one goes to the

10 file divider 3, then there should be the index where it says faxes sent by

11 Dr. Bosanac. And then the index itself is the tabulated form, numbering 1

12 through to 39. The page number for hard copy purposes, not ERN number

13 purposes, on the right-hand, top right-hand corner. The description of

14 the document, the 65 ter number, which will assist all parties, and the

15 ERN number, and I've made sure that the Registry have got a copy of this

16 document and the index so there should be no problems.

17 So if I can deal, please, with -- what I will deal with will be

18 the English version but clearly Dr. Bosanac should have a copy of the

19 first, which for Dr. Bosanac would be page 1, top right-hand corner.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Is this ERN number 01172492?

21 MR. MOORE: Correct. So page 1, if I just deal with the last four

22 numbers, 2492 is the original document, the copy, and then page 2, which

23 is 2493, relates to the English translation. And this format hopefully

24 will flow the whole way through logically in sequence.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Are you proposing to tender each of these in turn?

1 MR. MOORE: I will be -- I'm quite happy to tender them in turn.

2 Perhaps it's the best and neatest way and then there are no mistakes.

3 Some of the documents I will hardly refer to in any detail at all. Some I

4 will. Perhaps for accuracy, for the Court record, if I do it sequentially

5 and a number can be called out.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. We'll proceed, but you realise it will

7 be the electronic form that will be the exhibit with these documents, as I

8 expect none of them are being challenged for authenticity.

9 MR. MOORE: Certainly.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Can I say that I personally appreciate having the

11 paper copy?

12 MR. MOORE: I think we all do.

13 Q. With we deal, then, please, Dr. Bosanac, with the first document?

14 Can we go to paragraph 3? And it refers, I hope, to on October the 12th,

15 1991, at 2100 hours, there is reference to a route. Do you happen to have

16 that, doctor?

17 A. Yes, I do.

18 Q. Now, can I just direct you then, please -- because we know

19 therefore that there document is either on the 12th or after the 12th of

20 October, can I direct you then, please, to paragraph 1, where in English

21 it reads as follows, "I responsibly request the principles of neutrality

22 to be respected."? To which agreement are we talking about here when we

23 refer to the route through Zidine being agreed on? How did this arise?

24 A. Medecins Sans Frontieres is the only international organisation

25 which responded to my appeals, and tried to organise evacuation of the

1 wounded and sick from the hospital. The first convoy was supposed to

2 arrive at the Vukovar Hospital on the 11th of October. The same route

3 Vinkovci-Nustar-Marinci-Bogdanovci-Luzac-Vukovar Hospital. So this route

4 was supposed to be used. However, that did not take place because the

5 Yugoslav People's Army took the convoy using I don't know which roads to

6 the barracks in Vukovar. The barracks was under the control of the JNA.

7 I heard that they spent the night there, the people in the convoy, and

8 never reached the hospital, but, rather, went back. Then once again in

9 one week they wanted to organise another convoy, which happened one week

10 later.

11 Q. Can I just ask you, please, if we look at the document, at the

12 top, we can see that it is directed to the international mission

13 concerning the convoy for the relief aid to the wounded and civilians in

14 Vukovar. It's directed to the Croatian liaison office and signed by you.

15 Now, is it right that this was sent by fax by you or not?

16 A. Yes, yes, that's correct.

17 Q. And are you able to tell us where the Croatian liaison office was?

18 A. In Zagreb.

19 Q. Can we move on, then, please to the next -- what is called tab 2?

20 The original fax is number 0 -- page number 01172494 and it was ter number

21 996. The English is 01172496. Would you be kind enough, please, to turn

22 up your copy which is clearly, I think -- is that in your handwriting or

23 not?

24 A. Yes, it is.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Your Honour.

1 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Lukic?

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I did not want to interrupt. However,

3 I do have to point out to a technical issue that arose. The previous

4 document and this document can be seen by our clients only in their

5 English version on the screens. However, they were not able to see either

6 of the two documents in the B/C/S version so I wanted to inform the

7 Chamber about that. Perhaps it would be a good idea to give them a hard

8 copy of the B/C/S version so that they could have it before them and could

9 give us instructions regarding that.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. It will, I think, be necessary for the

11 Court officer, with these documents that are before him both in English

12 and B/C/S, to try and present both on the screen. If we can move into

13 that pattern now, it will help us later on when we don't have paper

14 versions.

15 [Trial chamber and registrar confer]

16 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore, contrary to your understanding, I am

17 told that the 65 ter bundle 996 has not been, in fact, received into the

18 electronic system, only the bundle 223. For that reason, it's not

19 possible for the Registry to be displaying the 996 numbers in electronic

20 form in English or B/C/S, unless they can find them quickly on their own

21 resources. So the system cannot work efficiently at the moment. For that

22 reason, I think it will be necessary, with this bundle, and probably more

23 convenient for everybody, to convert to paper because there is this

24 absence from the electronic system of that bundle.

25 [Trial chamber and registrar confer]

1 JUDGE PARKER: Looking at the time, I think it would be

2 convenient, Mr. Moore, if we had the morning break and if you would please

3 liaise with the Court registry officer to ensure that we can either move

4 efficiently on the electronic court system in dealing with these

5 documents; if that is not possible, to indicate to the Chamber when we

6 return. We have to then make good with paper versions rather than delay.

7 Whichever system is followed, be aware of the concern that there will be

8 need for a B/C/S version to be able to be seen by each of the Accused,

9 whether it be electronic or paper. Could I leave that with you during the

10 break?

11 MR. MOORE: Yes, of course. Can I -- may I just submit, I had

12 checked to see whether both the exhibits 996 and 223 had gone into the

13 daily bucket and I'm informed that it has. Perhaps another search can

14 clarify. In any event, what I'm having done is hard copies prepared for

15 the defendants.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Can I suggest you liaise so that it can be clear

17 whether there is available on E-Court the bundle 996 or not, and plan

18 accordingly for when we return.

19 We will resume at 11.00.

20 --- Recess taken at 10.41 a.m.

21 --- On resuming at 11.09 a.m.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore, I understand that to overcome some

23 technical difficulties we are now going to proceed on paper. Is that your

24 understanding?

25 MR. MOORE: What we have had done, we have had duplicates prepared

1 for the defendants in paper. They have files of these faxes. So that

2 will be available. We are presenting these faxes in Sanction. 996 and

3 223 were in the bucket but I think there is really a question of trying to

4 make sure that there is a compatibility. For me it's what I called a VED,

5 a voyage of electronic discovery so we will try and work our way through

6 as best we can.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Hopefully, with experience of a few days we will

8 overcome these technical teething problems and reach the stage where we

9 can enjoy the promised benefits.

10 Yes. Now, you dealt with a document and then moved to another.

11 Are you intending to exhibit the first?

12 MR. MOORE: Yes. I would like to exhibit all the documents as we

13 proceed sequentially. I seek the Court's guidance in relation to whether

14 it's necessary to distinguish between B/C/S and English. For my part I

15 would have thought not. If they go as a collective exhibit. I'm quite

16 happy for that to be done.

17 JUDGE PARKER: In paper form you're quite right. When we come to

18 electronic, I think they have to be separately identified, but for paper,

19 at the moment, and we are proceeding on paper, the English and

20 electronic -- and B/C/S form can be received as the one exhibit.

21 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

22 JUDGE PARKER: So you tender the first of them?

23 MR. MOORE: Yes. I would tender the document that we have

24 mentioned, ending 2492 and 2493, presumably that will be ...

25 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number 1.

1 MR. MOORE: Thank you. May we then move on to tab 2?

2 JUDGE PARKER: And I hope the doctor is able to find it after all

3 that confusion. 2943. No, 2494.

4 MR. MOORE: In B/C/S it should be 2494 and 2495 and for the

5 English translation it will be 2496, top right-hand corner for Dr. Bosanac

6 would be page 3, page 4.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

8 MR. MOORE: For my part I will be dealing with page 5, 2496.

9 Hopefully the defendants will have now access to all those documents in

10 hard copy.

11 Q. Dr. Bosanac, may we deal, please, with the fax that you sent? It

12 reads, "Respected gentlemen." Do you have that particular fax? Are you

13 able to tell us, it doesn't have a date on it, are you able to tell us

14 bearing in mind the last fax was on or around or after the 11th of

15 October, can you tell us when this fax was sent, please?

16 A. This fax was actually sent on the same day. The substance is the

17 same as the previous fax but it's differently worded. It's in reference

18 to the same evacuation, though.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour?

21 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Vasic?

22 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I apologise to my colleague for

23 interrupting. I have noticed that when the previous document was

24 tendered, we failed to establish the identification number of the exhibit.

25 The Defence was therefore in no position to say anything about it. It's

1 just a matter of principle, really, but I'm afraid at some point sooner or

2 later we will come across a document where that is necessary. At this

3 point in time in relation to this particular exhibit the Defence has no

4 objections to raise but it's all a matter of principle regarding how we

5 tender documents.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Well, Mr. Moore, I am expecting that we will

7 shortly slide into a smooth procedure in which you identify the document

8 by the ERN number and where possible by its date and its tab location as

9 you turn to the document which should overcome the problem of Mr. Vasic.

10 MR. MOORE: I'm terribly sorry. I thought I had referred to the

11 ERN number specifically, both in B/C/S and English, so I'm afraid -- I'm

12 sure it's my fault. I don't follow the objection.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Matters not whose fault it is, if you could be sure

14 to do it in future.

15 MR. MOORE: Yes, of course.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

17 MR. MOORE:

18 Q. Dr. Bosanac, would you be kind enough, please, to refer to

19 paragraph 1 and then B? If I may read, "If control is necessary, we ask

20 for three members of, 1, the Croatian army, 2, the JNA, and 3, the EC

21 monitors." Why did you ask for EC monitors?

22 A. Because we were all very frightened and I felt that I was

23 responsible and that it was my duty to ensure that the evacuation ran

24 smoothly, and that all the wounded and sick persons who were part of the

25 convoy would be escorted safely to another hospital outside Vukovar.

1 Q. So when we look at paragraph 3, what did you mean by "that is as a

2 guarantee for a cease-fire"? What was happening at this time that made

3 you ask for a cease-fire?

4 A. The situation was getting worse and worse. I'm talking about

5 early October. And shells were falling on a daily basis, as well as bombs

6 being dropped by aeroplanes. These were being dropped on the hospital and

7 its surroundings. I was hoping that if the international organisations

8 stayed in Vukovar together with us it would be easier to reach an end to

9 the aggression against Vukovar and for peace to be restored. That is why

10 I requested that the European Community monitors remain in Vukovar.

11 Q. Thank you. Can we deal, then, finally, with paragraph 5? It

12 reads in English, "In the name of 200 wounded and civilians in Vukovar,

13 please insist that the convoy remains intact." Who was going to be

14 included in the convoy?

15 A. First and foremost, the wounded, both Croatian soldiers and

16 policemen and civilians. It had been agreed previously that only the

17 wounded could be part of the convoy. The convoy was supposed to come to

18 Vukovar two or three times a week so that it would succeed in evacuating

19 all the wounded and sick. At this point in time there were 200 wounded in

20 the hospital but in addition to those there were plenty remaining in the

21 civilian shelters. Our intention was to have all of them evacuated and

22 brought safely out of town.

23 Q. Thank you very much. Might I make an application for the

24 documents included in tab 2 to be made an exhibit? Presumably that will

25 be Exhibit 2.

1 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

2 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit number 2.

3 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much. May I now move on to tab 3,

4 which has two documents. One is a translation of the other. They are 65

5 ter number 996. If I deal with the B/C/S ERN number, it's 01172497 and

6 the English translation is 01172497.

7 Q. Doctor, would you be kind enough, please, to look at page 2497,

8 page 6 in the English format. I will deal with the English version. Here

9 we have got a fax allegedly sent by you dated the 20th of October,

10 approximately one week later on, going to Dr. Christopher Besse of

11 presumably Medecins Sans Frontieres; is that correct? It reads, "I would

12 like to thank you for the assistance you have given us in Vukovar." What

13 assistance had Medecins Sans Frontieres given to you prior to the sending

14 of this fax?

15 A. Well, they were the only international organisation that helped

16 us. They came to Vukovar, they helped organise a convoy in which 105

17 wounded were evacuated. That was the day before the 19th of October.

18 True enough, they brought no assistance in terms of medicines and medical

19 equipment, which is something that we had hoped for. I thanked them

20 nonetheless because they did help to have the wounded evacuated, which

21 allowed them to receive treatment in the free territories of Croatia.

22 Q. Can I ask you, please, to look at the final paragraph, where there

23 is reference to, "We are left now without basic medical drugs and material

24 and without the basic means for treating the injured and the sick." You

25 clearly have indicated this to Dr. Besse. Did you at any time communicate

1 this situation to what I will call JNA sources, to let them know that you

2 were short of medical supplies?

3 A. I can't remember specifically the first time that I talked to the

4 JNA officers in charge, but by this time I do not think that I had spoken

5 to them directly.

6 Q. Thank you. And then finally, there is a reference to the wounding

7 of nurses in the madness. How did the nurses get wounded?

8 A. One of the lorries carrying the wounded on the way out of town

9 drove over a mine, at least that's what I was told, which exploded. The

10 two Swiss nurses were wounded. It was for this reason that the convoy

11 organiser got in touch with me to tell me that they were sorry but that

12 they were no longer able to continue the evacuation of the wounded.

13 Q. Thank you very much.

14 MR. MOORE: May I please make application for the tab 3 exhibits,

15 reference 996 and 223, the 65 ter number, 01172497, to be made an exhibit,

16 please?

17 JUDGE PARKER: That will be received.

18 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit number 3.

19 MR. MOORE: I'd like to move to tab 4. Tab 4 relates to a

20 document sent on the same date as the previous exhibit, Exhibit 3. The

21 ERN number is ZA 002325. For the B/C/S. And the English 002326. These

22 are documents which we submit were sent to the Croatian liaison office

23 with the EC mission.

24 Q. Dr. Bosanac, would you be kind enough please to look at the top

25 right-hand corner of page 8? The English translation is page 9. It --

1 I'd like to deal with the first paragraph, please. There is reference to

2 the absolute and immediate withdrawal of JNA from the territory of

3 Vukovar, together with removal of the armaments situated on the left bank

4 of the Danube aimed towards the municipality of Vukovar.

5 Now, when you refer to that, and if you can deal with it fairly

6 shortly, please, the aiming and the armaments are those the same armament

7 or weapons which you have already referred to in your evidence this

8 morning?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Moving to the second paragraph, there is reference to there are

11 still about 170 wounded and 76 -- sorry, 70 sick, including pregnant women

12 and newborn children. Of the wounded, again, are you able to assist the

13 Court with how many of those wounded would be civilian or not civilian?

14 A. It's difficult for me to say with any degree of certainty but I

15 would say 50/50.

16 Q. There is reference then to the medical supplies, on paragraph 3.

17 Paragraph 4, please, "the city of Vukovar is filled with starving women

18 and children and they are determined not to leave their homes."

19 Can you, again in very general terms, indicate to the Court what

20 it was you saw that caused you to add this final paragraph in respect of

21 starving women and children not leaving their homes?

22 A. Before the siege of Vukovar was complete, that is before the 25th

23 of August, there have been evacuations of women and children to other free

24 unoccupied territories across Croatia. Most of them had returned prior to

25 the 1st of September because it was expected that the school year would

1 begin and that the situation would remain quiet. Several times through

2 the Klajcela [phoen] street hospital in Zagreb and Dr. Fatarini [phoen],

3 UNICEF had tried to have Vukovar's children evacuated. However, their

4 parents would not let the children go and leave. And they themselves had

5 already refused to leave.

6 Some did leave eventually. Some had already left by this time.

7 As I said, there were 45.000 inhabitants in Vukovar before the war. About

8 15.000 of them remained. These included people who kept refusing to leave

9 their homes. They belonged to all the different ethnic groups, Croats,

10 Serbs, Ruthenes and all the others. So these are the people that I had in

11 mind. When the Medecins Sans Frontieres convoy arrived, a group of

12 elderly people, civilians, who were still uninjured, came along to ask

13 whether they might be allowed to join the convoy too. However, according

14 to a previous agreement, only the wounded were allowed to join. In that

15 group of people who arrived to watch the evacuation, there were no women

16 and children. So this was probably the reason I added this sentence. I

17 know that the town was teeming with women and children still, that they

18 were starving. There was no food to go around. But I didn't go out and

19 look for them specifically to talk to them and try to get them to leave

20 Vukovar.

21 Q. Thank you very much.

22 MR. MOORE: May I please make application for the documents

23 contained in tab 4, 2325 and 2326, to be made an exhibit.

24 JUDGE PARKER: They will be received.

25 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit number 4.

1 MR. MOORE: Might I move on, then, please, to tab 5? Tab 5

2 contains an original document, a fax, and a translation. They are at the

3 following: ZA 002466 in the B/C/S, and ZA 002467, they are subsumed

4 within the 65 ter number of 223.

5 Q. Dr. Bosanac, would you be kind enough, please, to turn, as I say,

6 to tab 5, your page 10, the English translation is page 11.

7 Here we have a document dated apparently the 21st of October.

8 It's directed to the European monitor mission. Can I deal please with the

9 first paragraph? "I am grateful for your efforts to help Vukovar while

10 under the blockade but I also have to mention that the cease-fire is not

11 respected so that every day there are more and more dead and wounded."

12 And you then proceed to give an example, "on the 28th of October there are

13 eight wounded persons and three unidentified dead persons" and then on

14 October the 21st, "by 11.00 there are 11" -- sorry, "there are eight

15 wounded as well as two dead women."

16 Can I just deal now with the final paragraph? On the day the

17 convoy was in the hospital in Vukovar, a six-month-old dead baby was

18 brought with the head and brain injuries caused by a JNA grenade. The

19 baby was brought by its grandmother, whose right-hand had to be amputated

20 and who barely survived the operation.

21 Are you able to assist the Court how it was that this child and

22 grandmother was injured? What caused it?

23 A. The grandmother and the child were in the basement of their house.

24 The shell hit the house, making a direct hit on the entrance into the

25 basement, which killed the baby and gravely wounded the grandmother.

1 Q. Later on, you refer to or ask for the or demand for the immediate

2 withdrawal of the army from the municipality of Vukovar, including the

3 village of Marinci. How far away is Marinci -- by way of kilometres, how

4 far away would it be from the Vukovar Hospital?

5 A. Marinci is located about ten kilometres from the Vukovar Hospital,

6 and the road was cut off there at that location, and this was the road

7 that we used before, prior to the full blockade, to evacuate the wounded,

8 the sick, the pregnant women, and so on, and as well as to bring in

9 medical supplies and food.

10 Q. Are you able to tell us in general terms when that road was cut

11 off and thereby stopped the evacuation of injured and wounded people and

12 the importation of medication?

13 A. Most of the roads were cut off as early as the beginning of

14 September. However, there was that road from Luzac-Bogdanovci and onwards

15 which was still operational, albeit with some difficulties because it was

16 constantly targeted by shells and guns, but was still operational up until

17 early October. And from that time on, throughout the rest of October and

18 the entire November, the centre of Vukovar and its environs, were

19 completely or rather fully besieged by the tanks of the JNA.

20 Q. I'm going to spare you the delight of looking at a map at the

21 moment for Vukovar and its general area, but are you able to tell the

22 Court what districts, what roads, were cut off with regard to access to

23 Vukovar and the approximate distance that those districts were away?

24 A. Vukovar was completely surrounded, the roads were cut off

25 initially the roads towards Osijek and on. Osijek is 35 kilometres from

1 Vukovar. That road was cut off in the very beginning, and then the next

2 road to be cut off was the road to Vinkovci which is 14 kilometres from

3 Vukovar. At the exit point from Vukovar, the area that is called Borovo

4 Naselje there was another roadblock. In addition to that, in the south,

5 towards the area where the JNA barracks was, there was another roadblock,

6 as well as in Mitnica, leading towards Ilok. Additionally, along the

7 entire left bank of the Danube, there were tanks positioned there, so that

8 was a kind of a blockade as well. In September, it was still possible to

9 go through the corn fields from Luzac towards Bogdanovci, Marinci, to

10 Nustar and Vinkovci. That road was blocked in early October as well.

11 Therefore, 10 kilometres' length of the Danube and the area that was three

12 kilometres wide was the area that constituted the centre of the town,

13 where, in the basements, there were some 15.000 people completely cut off

14 without electricity, water, food, and, on a daily basis, between 9.000 and

15 12.000 various missiles landed on the city. It seemed that Vukovar was a

16 site where the JNA tested its ammunition, various types of grenades,

17 rocket launchers, aeroplane bombs of various sizes, noxious fumes, toxic

18 fumes, phosphorous bombs, all these things that we had no idea existed.

19 Q. Thank you, doctor. To assist the Court, I will be calling another

20 witness to deal with the -- this topic in more detail.

21 MR. MOORE: Might I make application for the tab 5 documents, ZA

22 002466 and 2467 to be made Prosecution Exhibit, please?

23 JUDGE PARKER: They will be received.

24 THE REGISTRAR: This is Exhibit number 5.

25 MR. LUKIC: Excuse me, Your Honour.

1 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. Mr. Lukic?

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I wish to point out

3 something that I noticed in this document. However, prior to that, since

4 we are in the initial stages of the trial, could the Chamber please tell

5 us whether, in regard of each document that one side wants to have

6 admitted into evidence, the other side will have an opportunity to raise

7 objections? That's one thing that I wanted to raise. The other thing

8 that I wanted to raise is that B/C/S -- or rather the English version here

9 does not fully correspond to the B/C/S version. I assume that these

10 translations were not done by the CLSS but rather by somebody else and

11 that these translations were used in the book, and if you look at the top

12 of this document, the text does not correspond to the original. In

13 addition to that, if you look at the B/C/S version, it says, eight wounded

14 and three identified dead persons, whereas in the English version, it says

15 eight wounded and three unidentified dead persons. This is something that

16 I noticed just now without any detailed analysis and what worries me is

17 that if these translations were done by somebody else other than CLSS,

18 there could be other mistakes in translation. Therefore, I would like

19 these documents just to be marked for identification so that we can check

20 further the translations and then, should we find any further mistakes, we

21 will notify the Chamber.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic, with respect to your first question,

23 whenever somebody moves for the admission of a document, any counsel who

24 wishes to object to its admission should rise and may do so.

25 With respect to the second, Mr. Moore, can you help me about the

1 translation?

2 MR. MOORE: All I can say is I clearly operate upon the

3 translation that I have as being accurate and precise. If there are any

4 concerns about the accuracy, if the members of the Defence wish to inform

5 me in advance, or indeed if they subsequently discover there is something

6 that causes them concern, I, for my part, if they wish, can have this

7 matter retranslated or the matter for clarified. I'm quite happy for a

8 procedure to be set in motion which will satisfy both parts or both

9 parties.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Translations have been done by the Tribunal, have

11 they?

12 MR. MOORE: Some have been done by the Tribunal and some were

13 already in existence.

14 JUDGE PARKER: I see. All right.

15 MR. MOORE: This has been served on the 65 ter list. I don't

16 criticise my learned friends because of the volume of the documents but

17 clearly one relies on the interpretation itself. I'm quite happy for any

18 concerns that are expressed, for them to be re-checked, as long as the

19 Defence agree with the protocol that will be set up.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Two points of concern were raised. The first is as

21 to the heading of the document which is, I would suggest, not one that's

22 likely to be of significance. It's obvious to the Chamber that there has

23 been no attempt to translate printed headings in the document. The second

24 is whether for the 20th of October there were three identified dead

25 persons or three unidentified. Perhaps you might have that checked.

1 MR. MOORE: Certainly.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

3 Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

5 MR. MOORE: May I then move on to tab 6? They relate to 65 ter

6 number 223. It's ZA 002323 and 2324 for the English and B/C/S version.

7 Q. Would Dr. Bosanac please turn to page 12? And the English version

8 is page 13. I will try and move on as fast as I can.

9 Doctor, I'm going to ask you questions about this particular fax.

10 Please don't feel fettered in any way about giving a full reply, but if

11 you could keep your answers perhaps a little shorter it might help. But

12 do feel free to reply as you deem appropriate.

13 This is a document dated the 22nd of October. There is reference

14 to the EC mission. The first paragraph refers to "we would like to ask

15 you that in your negotiations about Vukovar you present the agreement

16 about a cease-fire because Vukovar is still under artillery fire from

17 mortar shell launchers and tanks on the hospital and on civilian

18 properties." May I deal please firstly, what is the cease-fire that

19 you're referring to?

20 A. Very frequently we received information that a cease-fire was

21 being negotiated, and the cease-fire agreement was never honoured, and the

22 only cease-fire that actually did exist was the one that took place during

23 the evacuation.

24 Q. Thank you. Can I just move on to the reference, "since yesterday

25 we have 22 wounded and three dead, mostly civilians," and then you refer

1 to some figures, we remark that in Vukovar since August the 25th, a date

2 that you've already mentioned, until October the 21st, the day before this

3 document was created, in total there was 267 dead, 165 civilians, 4

4 children, 11 members of the MUP and 87 members of the Croatian army. Now,

5 can I just, please, ascertain how it is you said that there were 165

6 civilians and four children who were killed? How did you make that

7 assessment of numbers?

8 A. What is written here is not an assessment. This is correct data.

9 Definitely correct. We recorded the names of all of the dead and wounded

10 who came to the hospital. This number could be greater only if there were

11 people who were not brought to the hospital. However, these figures here

12 reflect those who were brought to the hospital. We kept our records in

13 accordance with the instructions we received from the Defence staff of the

14 city, and we kept very accurate records of identities of Croatian

15 defenders, civilians, policemen and naturally we knew the identities of

16 the children. In addition to the records we sent on a daily basis to the

17 defence staff of the city, police also kept their records of their

18 members, and the list of the wounded was sent on a daily basis by fax to

19 the medical staff of the medical headquarters in Zagreb. So the figures

20 that are stated here are 100 per cent accurate. They reflect all of those

21 who were brought to the hospital and who were wounded or were killed.

22 Q. Again if you can't assist in relation to this question, please say

23 so. You say 165 civilians, you say four children. Are you able to say

24 the locations of where they received those injuries, geographical

25 locations, whether it's in Vukovar town or in surrounding districts?

1 A. In the city of Vukovar, from Mitnica, Borovo Naselje, and the

2 centre of the town, all the areas that were within the siege.

3 Q. How many kilometres is it to Mitnica from the Vukovar Hospital?

4 A. About five.

5 Q. And Borovo Daci [phoen]?

6 A. About seven.

7 Q. There is reference also to three JNA soldiers, Sasa Jovic, and

8 then you go on to name them. What had happened to them?

9 A. They were wounded somewhere, the positions I don't know exactly

10 where. And the Croatian soldiers brought them to the hospital when they

11 were wounded.

12 Q. And were they treated at the hospital or not?

13 A. They were treated. A room was allocated in the basement to them

14 and they were lying in beds in that room. They received treatment in

15 accordance with the professional rules. We assigned a doctor to them,

16 Dr. Njavro, who was in charge of their treatment.

17 Q. Why were they given a separate room?

18 A. The Guards members demanded that or rather the military policemen

19 who brought them there. They wanted them to be kept separate and they

20 wanted them to receive separate treatment, and ensure that nobody would

21 come and disturb them.

22 Q. If it was suggested that JNA soldiers were given inferior

23 treatment at the Vukovar Hospital through this period, would that be a

24 correct assertion to make?

25 A. No.

1 Q. Why not?

2 A. Because that would be untrue. Everybody received everything we

3 were able to provide to them, in terms of medication, bandaging.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic?

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think that the previous question was

6 a leading one and my suggestion would be that such questions not be

7 allowed in examination of a witness.

8 JUDGE PARKER: It is a fine line on that question, whether or not

9 it is leading. It is proper to direct a witness's attention to a specific

10 issue and I'm inclined to view this question as doing no more than that,

11 leaving to the witness a free hand as to how the witness might respond to

12 what was put. So I thank you for the interjection, Mr. Lukic, but I think

13 Mr. Moore escapes criticism on this occasion.

14 MR. MOORE: Thank you. Might I make application, then, please,

15 for the documents within tab 6, 2322, 2324, to be made a Prosecution

16 exhibit.

17 JUDGE PARKER: They will be received.

18 THE REGISTRAR: That is going to be Exhibit number 6.

19 MR. MOORE: Might I then move on, please, to tab 9? Tab 9 is a 65

20 ter number 223. The document numbers are ZA 002335 and 2336. Tab 9

21 relates to one document and its translation. That is page 18 for the

22 B/C/S and pages 19 and 20 for the English translation. I hope that's

23 correct. Sorry, I think I have misread the numbers. It should be 2337

24 and then it should be 2338, 2339. My apologies. But it's certainly --

25 Q. Dr. Bosanac, could you be kind enough, please, to turn up top

1 right-hand corner page 18 and the English version is page 19 and 20, top

2 right-hand corner.

3 Doctor, this is 23rd of October, 11.00 in the morning, "Honourable

4 Sirs," and it's going off to the European mission and the Croatian liaison

5 officer; is that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Is this a document created by you and sent by you?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Thank you. Here there is reference to, "More than 200 wounded, 76

10 persons are under the artillery fire from tanks as well as shelled by

11 mortars." And again you repeat about starvation and sickness. Now what I

12 want to deal with, please, on this particular fax, if we move on there is

13 reference, "More than a month we are under the complete traffic blockade.

14 There is neither water nor electricity." Now, did that apply to the

15 hospital or did the hospital have its own power source? Can you just

16 clarify why it was you put in that particular sentence?

17 A. The hospital did indeed have a number of its own power sources,

18 but makeshift ones, and we needed fuel in order to run those. And since

19 there was no fuel, we only had enough to use for what was indispensable,

20 surgery, x-ray, lighting in the shelters. However, there was less and

21 less fuel so one of the batteries was struck by a shell and it was often

22 the case that nurses had to treat patients and look after patients by

23 candle light or in complete darkness. Secondly, there was no running

24 water, so we would collect rain water, and we would go to the wells

25 surrounding the hospital. There were six of those. We would go there to

1 get water. We first put chlorine into those wells and then we would get

2 water. Those were old and neglected wells or cisterns but you could still

3 get water there. You had to wait for the water to clear after this

4 initial process. We were not able to go to the river to fetch water

5 because we were within shooting range of the tanks across the river. What

6 this means is that it was very difficult to get anything organised, get

7 anything going, no matter whether surgery, normal health care of patients,

8 or food. For each meal, we needed 600 litres of drinking water. There

9 were 700 patients in the hospital. I could go on about this at great

10 length but I'm not sure if you want me to talk about something very

11 specific.

12 Q. No. That's fine for the moment. Thank you very much. But I

13 would like to just move on to the next part of your first paragraph,

14 because there is reference to "gaseous gangrene." Now, what exactly is

15 gaseous gangrene and how does it -- how is it caused?

16 A. Gaseous gangrene is an illness that is caused by an anaerobic

17 infection inside a wound. The gangrene develops in the absence of air.

18 The wound soon begins to fester, tissue is destroyed. The agent enters

19 the blood stream, causes sepsis, and a quick death. This is a very

20 difficult form of death because this is a gram negative infection.

21 Q. Is gaseous gangrene, is it capable of treatment with the correct

22 medication?

23 A. Yes. It can be treated.

24 Q. Did you have any --

25 A. And we.

1 Q. -- at a time --

2 A. And we did. We had some of it but by no means all. We

3 administered large doses of crystal penicillin. We drained and cleaned

4 the wounds. But this sort of illness calls for further treatment, and in

5 order to do that, you would need to isolate these patients from all other

6 patients who are not suffering from this infection. You need antibiotics,

7 using a biogram, a sample which is taken from the infected area, but we

8 had no equipment to use for purposes of identifying the specific agent.

9 Therefore, we could not select the best possible antibiotic to use against

10 the agent. The most difficult thing for my colleagues and myself, as well

11 as the nurses, was the fact that we knew we were in no position to offer

12 the best possible care, that under different circumstances we could, if

13 this wasn't wartime and if this wasn't the Vukovar Hospital. So that was

14 the hardest thing that we had to face at the moment.

15 Q. Finally this, there is reference in the document about bodies not

16 being properly buried. And you have told us about collecting rain water

17 and also water from wells. Was there any concern that by collecting water

18 in this way, that it would have a significant effect upon the health of

19 the patients receiving that water or not?

20 A. Certainly. In one of those faxes, I'm not sure if in this

21 specific one or not, I asked for the shooting to stop tore an evacuation

22 to take place and for anti-epidemic measures to be taken. That the area

23 be cleansed and that the wells be cleaned. Under the conditions that

24 prevailed at the time, we did our best to keep the situation from further

25 deteriorating, but I believe that despite the conditions, we were to some

1 degree successful. We worked for three months under these impossible

2 circumstances. I should say abnormal circumstances.

3 Q.

4 MR. MOORE: May I make an application, please for the tab 9

5 documents to be made an exhibit.

6 JUDGE PARKER: They will be received.

7 MR. MOORE: That's 2337, 2338, and 2339 and I -- might I ask,

8 then, please, the Court to return to tab 7, page 14, top right-hand

9 corner? This is ZA 002333 and 2334 from 65 ter number 223, page 14 for

10 the B/C/S and page 15 for the English version. Can I just say, and I hope

11 I'm correct in this, in actual fact when one looks at the English version,

12 Mr. Lukic I'm sure will assist in this, there is the reference to the

13 defence of Vukovar. In actual fact I think it should say if one looks at

14 the original, it should relate to Vinkovci and not Vukovar. So if the

15 court are minded to accept that and there is no objection, the pen should

16 be put through the word "Vukovar," the defence of Vukovar, and it should

17 be V-i-n-k-o-v-c-i. I think I see everybody is nodding in agreement.

18 Thank you for that.

19 Q. Can I deal, then, please, Dr. Bosanac, with regard to your page

20 14, a short document, I think it's right to say what happened -- just a

21 moment, doctor. I think there is a question maybe.

22 JUDGE PARKER: It's been pointed out to me that when the last

23 exhibit was received, no number was recorded in the transcript. It was,

24 of course, Exhibit 7.

25 MR. MOORE: No. I'm hoping it would be Exhibit 6. 7? Thank you

1 very much.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Exhibit 7 and we are now back to tab 7.

3 MR. MOORE: Quite correct. Thank you for that. So tab 9 would be

4 Prosecution Exhibit 7.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Correct.

6 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

7 Q. Can I turn then to page 15, page 14 for Dr. Bosanac? If one looks

8 at the original, this is in your writing; is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And the method of transmission shows that it was forwarded on. Is

11 that right or not? Can you explain how this fax was sent?

12 A. The fax was sent from the police building at the Vinkovci Defence

13 staff. That's what the number tells you, 21266. I wanted to reach

14 someone outside Vukovar, anyone, and inform them about the attack on the

15 hospital, when a shell landed on the roof and the roof caught fire. The

16 fire soon spread to the hospital yard, where our workshops used to be. It

17 was a huge number of shells, 40, I think, I wrote at the time, but I had

18 no time to dictate this to a clerk. I just hand wrote it and I was off as

19 quickly as I could, to send the fax and convey the image of this moment to

20 someone outside.

21 Q. Did you actually have a fax machine in the hospital?

22 A. Yes. But that part of the office where the fax was had been

23 destroyed by a bomb. So I did not, in fact, have a fax where I was at the

24 time. I just had a phone line.

25 Q. So if I can just -- I hope not lead to you this extent. Is it

1 right that what you were saying is that you have a telephone and telephone

2 line which you used but did not use a fax from the hospital? Is that a

3 correct analysis?

4 A. Yes, that's correct.

5 Q. When you were going to send faxes, what did you actually have to

6 do, if we just deal with the period as a whole?

7 A. I had to get whatever it was that I wanted to send, I had to get

8 in a car and go to the defence staff which was near the municipality

9 building and use their fax. Alternatively, I could go to the police

10 building, depending on how heavy the shelling was on a particular day and

11 how much time I had. Once a fax was sent, I would drive back to the

12 hospital. The police was about 200 metres away and the defence staff was

13 in the centre of town and the distance between the hospital and the

14 defence staff was perhaps about one kilometre.

15 Q. Thank you very much.

16 A. Shells were falling all along the road. I risked my life each and

17 every time. The people used to tell me that it was a silly idea, that

18 those faxes were not that important. I would only be getting myself

19 killed and there was no one reading them anyway and no one was likely to

20 offer any assistance.

21 Q. Did you ever use the telephone to contact anyone?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And did you at any time contact someone representing the JNA?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And what did you tell them in relation to the overall condition of

1 the hospital and, as you have described here, the attack on the hospital?

2 Did you tell them about that?

3 A. Yes, I did. I said that the hospital was being targeted on a

4 daily basis by shells, guns, bombs. I asked for this shelling to stop. I

5 wanted peace restored. I asked for peace to be restored so that the

6 wounded could be evacuated --

7 Q. And did you tell them --

8 A. -- Several times.

9 Q. I'm sorry. And did you tell the person, whoever you were speaking

10 to at what I will call the JNA end, did you tell them about the medical

11 conditions, the absence of water or electricity, gangrene?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Can you just in very general terms tell us how often you would

14 speak down the telephone line the sort of things you were saying to them?

15 Try and keep it as short as you possibly can, doctor. Thank you.

16 A. I spoke several times to General Raseta, who was the

17 representative of the JNA in Zagreb. I also spoke several times to

18 someone from the General Staff, from the reporting centre in Zagreb. They

19 were trying to hunt down General Brovet's phone number for me and they

20 gave me a number in Sarajevo in their local military district. Somehow I

21 managed to get hold of the right number and I spoke to one of the JNA

22 officers probably in charge of that area. I told them I was from Vukovar,

23 that I was the hospital manager, that I wanted the shelling of the

24 hospital to stop, and the other voice came back saying, "How is that

25 possible? We don't believe you. We don't believe that the JNA is

1 shelling the hospital." I said, well, I can see the tanks from where I

2 am. On the opposite river bank. I can see planes flying over of the I

3 told them to use a helicopter to come to Vukovar. I was hoping that if

4 they came, the attacks would cease. If they came to the hospital.

5 I used this tactic several times but to no avail.

6 I even assumed at the time that they didn't believe me. So I

7 asked one of the wounded soldiers at the hospital, whether they were

8 prepared to talk to Raseta, and then is Sasa came along and phoned Raseta

9 from my office. I listened to their conversations, so I'm sure they knew

10 all of this. It's just that they were not prepared to stop.

11 Q. Thank you, doctor.

12 A. They wanted to destroy us.

13 MR. MOORE: Can I ask then please for the documents on tab 8 to be

14 made an exhibit, please?

15 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit number 8.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Tab 7 it is. Yes, it will be received as Exhibit

17 8.

18 MR. MOORE: Can I ask you, please, to turn to tab 8? It relates

19 to documents again on the 23rd of October and I can deal with this I hope

20 fairly speedily.

21 They are ZA 002335 and 2336, pages 16 and 17 in the hard copy,

22 page 16 for Dr. Bosanac. This is a document that has been forwarded, our

23 page 15, as it was, and there is reference to the 30 grenade shells.

24 Q. Now, who is Colonel Milan Macek?

25 A. I sent my appeal to the Vinkovci Defence Staff or headquarters,

1 and they passed it on to the Croatian army Main Staff in Zagreb.

2 Q. So can I just ask you, please: Milan Macek, who is he, please?

3 A. Milan Macek was the duty officer, at least that's my assumption,

4 at the Croatian army Main Staff in Zagreb. He received my appeal from

5 Vinkovci and then passed it on to the European Community mission.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 MR. MOORE: Could I ask, please, for the tab 8 documents 2232335

8 and 2236 [sic] to be made an exhibit, please?

9 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit number 9.

10 MR. MOORE: May I move on, then, to tab 10? Sorry, it's my fault.

11 Tab 9 we have dealt with. Tab 10 it is, yes. It relates to B/C/S and

12 English translations for a letter of the 25th of October, the numbers are

13 1172507 and they come from the 65 ter document 996. Page 21 is the

14 translation -- I beg your pardon, page 21 is the original, page 22 is the

15 English translation.

16 Q. Many of the items that have been included in this letter have

17 already been referred to and I don't wish to repeat it, if it's absolutely

18 necessary. Doctor, if we just look at this letter for a moment, really

19 specifically the first paragraph, "enclosed is a report of the work in the

20 Vukovar Hospital on October the 25th, as you're probably aware on October

21 the 23rd, an artillery attack had started on the hospital and lasted

22 basically for four and a half hours." Now, where exactly did those

23 projectiles land? You refer to a hundred of them.

24 A. They landed on the hospital buildings, in the hospital yard, all

25 over the corridors in which we worked, the cellar. It was a very

1 difficult day. It was one of the most difficult days.

2 MR. MOORE: May I ask, please, for that document to be made an

3 exhibit? That's the tab 10 documents.

4 JUDGE PARKER: They will be received.

5 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit number 10.

6 MR. MOORE: Thank you.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Looking at the time, Mr. Moore, this may be a

8 convenient --

9 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours? Your Honours, my

10 apologies. Before we break, there is something in relation to the exhibit

11 that was given a while ago. I think the translation of the title of this

12 document is inaccurate. The English reads, "The medical centre of

13 Vukovar" and the B/C/S just below, this is the heading of the memorandum,

14 and the letter was sent to the European mission and the Croatian office.

15 Maybe my learned friend from the OTP can ask the witness to have this

16 confirmed thereby dispelling any doubt and this would also save us a lot

17 of time.

18 MR. MOORE: Certainly. Might I do that? Thank you very much.

19 Q. Dr. Bosanac, would you be kind enough, please, to go to page 21,

20 top right-hand corner? I would like you, please, to look at the first

21 typed heading. Would you be kind enough, please, to tell us who it was

22 you were sending that to, or this document to.

23 A. The Croatian office with the European mission and the fax number

24 was 041525600, as stated on the face of this document.

25 Q. Thank you very much.

1 MR. MOORE: I think Your Honour was considering this might be an

2 appropriate moment.

3 JUDGE PARKER: We will resume at 10 minutes to 1.00.

4 --- Recess taken at 12.28 p.m.

5 --- On resuming at 12.58 p.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Moore.

7 MR. MOORE: May it please the Court, I'm going to try to move on a

8 little quicker if I can. Perhaps if I could be permitted just to say to

9 Dr. Bosanac that to try and keep her answers short. I hope the Court will

10 allow me that indulgence.

11 Q. Dr. Bosanac, I'm going to ask you about the other faxes. We've

12 taken quite a considerable amount of time for the early ones. Could you

13 please try and keep your answers shorter? But if there is anything that

14 you feel needs saying, of course you must do so.

15 Do you follow?

16 A. [No audible response]

17 Thank you very much. Might I then please move to tab 11? That is

18 65 ter number 223, the ERN numbers are ZA 002342 and 2343.

19 Doctor, would you be kind enough to turning up top right-hand hand

20 side, top right-hand corner, page 23 for the B/C/S version, and page 24 is

21 the English.

22 This document, is dated the 25th of October. It's sent by all

23 accounts to Medecins Sans Frontieres, Mr. Wilna -- I presume it's

24 Mr. Wilna van Artsen; is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Is this fax, do you repeat, and perhaps extend some of the

2 observations that you have made earlier on?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And if needs be, would it be right that you can answer any

5 questions from the Defence in cross-examination on this document, how it

6 was compiled and its contents?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you very much.

9 MR. MOORE: My Lord, might I make application that this document,

10 tab 11, is made a Prosecution exhibit?

11 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit 11.

12 MR. MOORE: And move on to tab 12, please. Tab 12 relates to 65

13 ter numbers 996 and the ERN number 01172509 and the telephone report is

14 01172509. And I will be referring to tab 28, in addition to this

15 document, although they will go in upon application as separate exhibits.

16 Q. May we deal, then, please, with page 25 in English, page 26 in

17 B/C/S. There is a reference here from -- a reference to two positions.

18 Why did you name these two positions of Borovo Selo, Lipovaca?

19 A. Because in the remaining part of the text, there is mention of the

20 grenades that had been launched from that area. These grenades caused

21 injuries and burns to this patient that is mentioned here, Ivana

22 Ivankovic.

23 Q. May we just deal with this young lady, her name is actually

24 misspelt in this document, but we'll see it later on, her medical records,

25 Silvana Ivankovic; is that right?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Was she brought to the hospital?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And are you able to say whether she was a civilian or a person

5 involved in military activities?

6 A. She was in a uniform of the National Guards Corps and she was

7 brought by the members of the National Guards Corps. Now, as to whether

8 she wore uniform accidently or was a member herself, I don't know that.

9 Q. And in relation to the extent of the burns, there is reference to

10 second and third degree burns; is that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. How did you know it was a phosphorus burn?

13 A. When she was brought in, her clothes and her boots were still on

14 fire. We took it off her. It continued burning and it smelled of

15 phosphorus.

16 Q. And if we turn, please, to tab 28, is it right that therein, on

17 tab 28, if I just give the reference for that, which is page 56 to 50-- or

18 56 to 61 inclusive, ZA 002449 to 2451, would you be kind enough, please,

19 to turn up page 56 and thereafter? We've got it from 56 to 58 in B/C/S,

20 and I hope the correct translation afterwards; is that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Thank you. Did that young lady survive?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And have you -- are you aware -- I don't want to know the exact

25 address but do you know if she lives in what I will call the Vukovar

1 general area?

2 A. Yes. Rather, she lives in the vicinity of Vukovar, in a place

3 near Vukovar.

4 Q. Can you tell us whether in actual fact there is any residual

5 scarring from those phosphorus burns?

6 A. I haven't seen her recently, but certainly there must be scars.

7 She underwent treatment following this in Zagreb, in Krapinske Toplica but

8 no doubt the scars remain.

9 Q. When you, in -- as I will call it, page 25, you are referring to

10 grenades, plural, not singular, was this the only example that you were

11 aware of, of phosphorus grenades being used or were you aware of grenades,

12 plural, being used on various occasions?

13 A. I know they were used on numerous occasions.

14 Q. And how do you know that?

15 A. I know because I received calls at the hospital from other parts

16 of the town reporting that bombs were landing, bombs that produced smoke

17 and smelled of phosphorus. I sent the doctors from the emergency room out

18 to go and provide treatment in the areas from which we received reports

19 from of the bombs falling. So I had confirmation from my doctors.

20 Q. Thank you very much.

21 MR. MOORE: My Lord, may I make application for tab 12 to be made

22 a Prosecution Exhibit?

23 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

24 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much. And in relation to tab 28 the

25 medical charts, I equally would make an application for that to be made an

1 exhibit as a separate exhibit. And might I respectfully ask whether it's

2 possible if it could retain the exhibit number of tab 28? Because my

3 intention would be to work sequentially through the documents and the

4 index -- the index is there and it will therefore means that everything

5 stays in sequence.

6 JUDGE PARKER: I look to the court officer to see whether he can

7 accommodate it as Exhibit 28.

8 THE REGISTRAR: So tab number 12 --

9 JUDGE PARKER: Just before you do that I think there may be an

10 objection.

11 Yes.

12 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, so far, we

13 attempted to follow the documents presented by the OTP. In this set of

14 documents we received this morning we do not have the tabs but were able

15 to follow so far based on the pagination. However, this last mention of

16 documents, especially the last tab mentioned, we did not quite get and

17 could this be clarified for us so that we can have a clear record of

18 documents admitted?

19 JUDGE PARKER: I understand the number for the first page is ZA

20 002449. It bears on it, at the top right-hand corner in my copy, a page

21 56. And it extends for three pages in B/C/S and then an English

22 translation commencing at page 59. Did that help you at all?

23 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Page

24 numbers solve all of our problems. Thank you.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Let's hope we can continue to help.

1 Yes, Mr. Moore?

2 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much. May I then move to tab 13,

3 please?

4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore, we are holding the last exhibit that you

6 have tendered. We will not receive it at this moment so that it can, in

7 due course, receive the number you wish.

8 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

9 JUDGE PARKER: At the moment, we have merely 12 exhibits.

10 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

11 JUDGE PARKER: And one -- the last set of papers being held in

12 abeyance, as it were.

13 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much. In the electronic back pocket.

14 May I move on to tab 13, which is from 65 ter number 996, the

15 numbers are 01172518 to 2519. That is, for my learned friend's

16 assistance, pages 27 and 28.

17 Q. Doctor, would you be kind enough, please, to turn to page 27?

18 I'll deal with the first paragraph, we can see it's to the EC

19 mission. There is reference to the protest about positions of the JNA on

20 the left bank, a heavy artillery attack is carried out. Then on the 26th

21 and 27th of October, you refer to 23 heavily wounded two brought in dead

22 and there is reference to nine wounded. It's the last paragraph I want to

23 deal with, please. It reads as follows: "At the moment, in the hospital,

24 in Vukovar, 209 wounded persons are situated among which 70 per cent are

25 civilians and also including the JNA soldiers."

1 Again, as I've asked before, how did you assess who was a civilian

2 and who wasn't a civilian? How did you come to the percentage,

3 approximate, of 70 per cent, please?

4 A. As I've already explained, we kept records of the wounded to see

5 who was a member of the police force, of the Guards corps, to see who were

6 women and children and so on. Based on that, based on the records, we

7 arrived at the percentage of civilians and soldiers or policemen.

8 Q. Thank you very much.

9 MR. MOORE: Might I make an application that tab 13 documents to

10 be made an exhibit?

11 JUDGE PARKER: They will be received.

12 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit number 13.

13 MR. MOORE: That's numbers 01172518 for the B/C/S, 2519 the

14 English.

15 I will move on to tab 14 in a moment.

16 Q. Doctor, can I just ask you to reflect over this period of time?

17 Here we are, we have reached the 31st of October and the first document

18 that we saw, the first fax, was around and about the 12th of October.

19 When one looks at this stretch of time, going to the 18th of November, did

20 matters improve or deteriorate with regard to the conditions in the

21 hospital?

22 A. The matters deteriorated on a daily basis. When the convoy left,

23 the convoy of Medecins Sans Frontieres carrying the wounded, the situation

24 got to be such that every day we had more and more bombs landing, the

25 number of the wounded increased continually, and it became more difficult

1 in every respect.

2 Q. And again, looking at that period of time, what about casualties?

3 And I'd like you to focus on what you assessed to be civilian casualties.

4 How did that change?

5 A. Every day, on average, 60 to 70 wounded persons would be brought

6 to the hospital. 60 to 70 per cent of them were civilians. My colleagues

7 kept saying that we should not allow civilians to leave the basement at

8 all because they went out to get water, to take some items from their

9 houses and so on, and it was terrible to see how these old people, women,

10 children, were brought back to the hospital half dead, and heavily injured

11 by shells.

12 Q. Thank you very much.

13 MR. MOORE: I'd make application that the tab 14 documents be made

14 an exhibit. That's 1172520, 2521.

15 JUDGE PARKER: They will be received.

16 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit number 14.

17 MR. MOORE: Thank you. May I move on to tab 15, please? Will

18 Your Honour forgive me for one moment, please?

19 [Prosecution counsel confer]

20 MR. MOORE: May I move to tab 15, please? Again, the tab 15

21 documents are English and B/C/S, 996 is the 65 ter number, and it's

22 01172522, 01172523. To assist my learned friends, the B/C/S is at page

23 32, the English translation is at page 31.

24 Q. Again, doctor, there is reference here, very short entry, about

25 13.45, 1.45 p.m. as I call it, aircraft have dropped two bombs straight on

1 the hospital, wounded newborn babies, women and patients. Can you

2 remember exactly what happened in relation to this incident? Without

3 going into enormous detail?

4 A. Yes. I remember that. One of the bombs landed directly on the

5 corridor where there are doors leading to the shelter. This is what

6 prompted me to do this. We were concerned that the entrance into shelter

7 would cave in and, as a result, I wrote this fax.

8 Q. Thank you very much.

9 MR. MOORE: Might I make application for the tab 15 documents,

10 31st of October, ter number 996 but the ERN number 01172522, 2523, be made

11 an exhibit, please?

12 JUDGE PARKER: Before we do, could it be clarified what is the

13 nature of this document?

14 MR. MOORE: Certainly.

15 JUDGE PARKER: It appears simply to be a statement. Is it

16 communicated to somebody?

17 MR. MOORE: Certainly, I will clarify.

18 Q. Doctor, would you be kind enough please to turn to page 32? Now,

19 it is a typed document; is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did you create this document?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And what way did you create the document and where did you send it

24 to?

25 A. I wrote this document under unusual circumstances because there

1 was a direct attack on the hospital. So I wrote this down briefly and

2 then forwarded it as usual to the fax of the Croatian liaison office with

3 the European mission.

4 JUDGE PARKER: That document will be received as Exhibit 15.

5 MR. MOORE: If we then move to tab 16, which is the following day.

6 It is ZA 002463 for the English translation, ZA 002464, the B/C/S, pages

7 33 and 34.

8 Q. Doctor, would you be kind enough, please, to turn to page 34?

9 Clearly, this is sent to the European mission. I don't want to go through

10 all the details again. It's right to say, I think, that if you were asked

11 any questions about this, you can deal with the questions. You have a

12 recollection; is that right or not?

13 A. Yes, yes, I remember that.

14 Q. I just want to deal with one or two parts. If we look at the

15 first paragraph, there is reference to one of the large grenade shells

16 fell on the shelter only to explode in the ground and caved in the

17 entrance of the shelter.

18 Now, what shelter are we talking about here?

19 A. Atomic shelter that we were able to see in the photographs.

20 Q. Now, in the shelter at the time the atomic shelter, there is a

21 reference here, apparently, to newborns, children, pregnant women and

22 mostly severely wounded and injured patients. Can I just clarify, please?

23 Are you saying that these were the people in the shelter at that time or

24 what are you saying or who was in the shelter at that time?

25 A. Yes. The people that you just listed.

1 Q. And when you refer to toxic gases, what do you mean by that?

2 A. What I am referring to are the fumes released when the bomb

3 exploded, which caused people to start crying, and caused shortness of

4 breath and so on. It also reeked of DDT.

5 Q. The only other matter I wanted to deal with in this document,

6 there is reference on the -- in the fourth paragraph to three ambulances,

7 three ambulances burnt and that you have only one left.

8 How many ambulances did you actually have prior to this incident?

9 A. At the beginning of the war, we had five, and we were given two

10 more by the Caritas. It was part of a donation. All of them were

11 eventually destroyed. We had just one left, and this last one was later

12 destroyed as well. So that the wounded were brought in in vans and

13 civilian cars. There were no ambulances left.

14 Q. Can I just inquire, the ambulances that you had, were they marked

15 in any way to distinguish them as ambulances or non-combatants?

16 A. All the ambulances were white with a red cross on them. These

17 vehicles were marked on all sides.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MR. MOORE: I'd make application for these or this document to be

20 made an exhibit, ZA 002463, 2464.

21 JUDGE PARKER: That will be received.

22 MR. MOORE: May we move on to tab 17.

23 JUDGE PARKER: That will be given an exhibit number, Mr. Moore.

24 MR. MOORE: Sorry, my fault.

25 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit number 16.

1 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

2 MR. MOORE: Could we move, please, to tab 17? That is ZA 002462.

3 This document is a combined document and relates to a telephone message.

4 It's page 35.

5 Q. Have you got that, doctor?

6 A. Yes, yes.

7 Q. This is a telephone message received from Vukovar, from

8 Dr. Bosanac. Now, there is reference here to parachute bombs, most likely

9 Durandal [phoen], bombs used for disabling the runway. Firstly, did you

10 actually see parachute bombs yourself?

11 A. I did, when they exploded in the immediate vicinity of the

12 hospital. The bombs exploded when they hit the branches of a tree and

13 then they splintered into myriad small parachutes with small nylon bags

14 attached to them and, once the bags burst, there was some sort of smokey

15 gas coming out. A sort of fog descended on the hospital, which had a

16 strange smell.

17 Q. Now, there is reference to Durandal, bombs used for disabling

18 runways? Might I respectfully inquire how you know it is that these bombs

19 were used for disabling runways? How did you come about that information?

20 A. The people who were in the hospital told me so. They were

21 commenting and that's why I knew, otherwise I would not have been aware

22 of that. This, in fact, was the first time I encountered something like

23 this.

24 Q. There is reference to multiple rocket launchers. Now, why do

25 you -- and how did you come to the conclusion that there were rocket

1 launchers being used?

2 A. I heard this and I saw this. I didn't realise the name was

3 multiple rocket launchers. The reference I heard was VBR, which means the

4 same thing. But they could launch between 60 -- 16 and 30 missiles in a

5 space of 16 seconds. That's something I heard myself but then people told

6 me that they were called multiple rocket launchers because they could fire

7 a series of missiles within a very short space of time.

8 Q. And are you able to recollect if any of those, as you assess,

9 multiple rockets, did they strike the hospital and the hospital environs?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And when you say about multiple rocket launchers, are you able to

12 give an indication of how many times you were aware of these being used

13 over a period of time?

14 A. They were being used several times every day. It was very

15 difficult to hear them or notice them because the speed of destruction was

16 great, wherever those missiles landed, everything was destroyed. It's

17 difficult for me to say how many times a day. I can give you a rough

18 approximation.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 MR. MOORE: Might I apply for the tab 17 document to be made an

21 exhibit?

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] [In English] Objection, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Lukic?

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in relation to the

25 questions we heard from the Prosecutor about this document, the witness

1 only provided details about the substance of the document. As for the

2 form of the document, there is nothing to indicate any degree of

3 authenticity. Who sent messages? Who were the messages written to?

4 Perhaps the Prosecutor should ask questions about that so that the witness

5 may be given a chance to clarify who produced this document. Perhaps that

6 would provide additional clarity. All I see for the time being is a piece

7 of paper.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

9 MR. MOORE: I agree entirely.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Moore.

11 MR. MOORE: I'm quite happy to do that.

12 Q. Doctor n respect of tab 17, it's a phone call document or refers

13 to a phone call. Do you know firstly whether you made such a phone call,

14 referring to parachute bombs, multiple rocket launchers?

15 A. I don't know. Yes, I did.

16 Q. And the date here is done as being the 2nd of November. Are you

17 able to say from your recollection whether you made such phone calls in

18 early November?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. This particular document, do you know where it came from or not?

21 How it was compiled?

22 A. When this was going on, I phoned the Croatian liaison office with

23 the European mission and the health ministry. Judging by the way the

24 document was put together, it is most likely to have been authored by the

25 Croatian liaison office with the European Commission because every time I

1 faxed something or sent them something, they would have a translation done

2 and would then pass it on.

3 Q. And when one looks at this particular account, does it or does it

4 not correspond with a telephone call that you have made to the Croatian

5 liaison officer or health ministry?

6 A. I'm not sure I understand that.

7 Q. What I want to try and establish is here is a document which is

8 not created by you but is suggesting that it is a message sent by you.

9 What I want to ask you is if we look at the content of the telephone

10 message, are you able to say whether it corresponds or not with a

11 telephone call that you made?

12 A. Yes. It does.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic, do you have any remaining concerns?

14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] For the time being, I would like this

15 document to be marked for identification so that we could run further

16 checks in order to establish its authenticity.

17 JUDGE PARKER: The documents at tab 17 will be marked for

18 identification as 17, Mr. Moore.

19 MR. MOORE: Yes, certainly. May I move on to tab 18, please? Tab

20 18 refers to an alleged telephone message from Dr. Bosanac on the 2nd of

21 November, one hour, ten minutes afterwards. It is 01172526 and can be

22 found on the 65 ter number 996. To assist my learned friends, it's page

23 36 and 37.

24 Q. Doctor, would you be kind enough, please, to turn to page 37?

25 I'll deal with this the way I dealt with the previous one. On November

1 the 2nd, 1991, it's apparently a telephone message received at 12.30 from

2 the hospital in Vukovar and from you. I read it as follows: "After this

3 morning's air attack the hospital is under constant fire. JNA is using

4 multiple rocket launchers from their position around Vukovar. From the

5 territory of the Republic of Serbia, left side of the River Danube, JNA is

6 using long-range machine-guns with explosive bullets also targeting the

7 hospital."

8 Second paragraph: "In the hospital, which is under constant fire

9 are five newborn babies. The last baby was born this morning. Ten

10 infants of age up to six years, 22 school children, and three children

11 unable to move, of age up to 14 years. Also there are seven pregnant

12 women awaiting to give birth any moment. In the name of two and a half

13 thousand children of Vukovar I demand immediate cease-fire from the left

14 side of the river Danube and other JNA positions."

15 Now, let's deal with it the way I dealt with the other. Did

16 you -- having read this document, are you able to say with regard to the

17 content, that you contacted someone in a manner and with the contents that

18 we see in this document?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you know anyone called liaison officer Alan Kosovic? Or did

21 you perhaps is a better way of putting it.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And with regard to the date, November the 2nd 1991 --

24 A. I remember.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Excuse me.

1 MR. MOORE: Just wait, I'm sure I'll deal with it.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic?

3 MR. MOORE: I think the nas and the das are getting mixed up.

4 Q. Doctor, certainly I heard there was a suggestion of no and then

5 there seems to be a confirmation that it was a yes. So I'm quite happy to

6 ask the questions again if it helps.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

8 MR. MOORE:

9 Q. Doctor, when you -- I asked the questions again because of a

10 translation difficulty.

11 With regard to the content of this telephone conversation, did you

12 ever send out a telephone call or communicate in telephone form a

13 conversation that deals with these topics?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Thank you. And with regard to the date, November the 2nd, are you

16 able to say whether, when you made that telephone call, whether would

17 correspond with this date approximately, exactly? Are you able to assist

18 us?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. When do you think you sent off this message?

21 A. I think I sent it exactly on the date stated on this document, 2nd

22 of November.

23 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much. Again I would make application

24 and I suspect my learned friend would equally make application it should

25 be set aside for ID.

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] What I wanted to point out, and what

2 my honourable colleague originally asked the question, is on line 73, line

3 24, the question was whether she had heard of a person named Alan Kosovic

4 and the witness's answer was a clear "no," whereas the transcript reflects

5 the answer as being "yes." My understanding of the answer was "no." If

6 we could please have this clarified and after that we can speak further

7 about the document. Because the later questions were not in reference to

8 the same thing.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Doctor, perhaps I could speed things up. Noted at

10 the bottom of this document is a name, Alan Kosovic. At that time, in

11 1991, did you know that person?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

13 MR. MOORE: I would make application for the tab 18 documents to

14 be made an exhibit.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic?

16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I will try to save time on this. We

17 propose that this document be marked for identification. There is no

18 stamp. There is no signature. And we have not been able to confirm the

19 identity of the person sending the document.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. The person sending it on the evidence

21 is Dr. Bosanac. This is apparently a person who noted the conversation,

22 said to be in the ECMM office in Zagreb. I think as there has been short

23 notice of these documents, they should be -- it should be marked for

24 identification at the moment, Mr. Moore.

25 MR. MOORE: Certainly.

1 JUDGE PARKER: To allow time for further inquiries.

2 MR. MOORE: Yes, by all means. I'm sorry, I heard my learned

3 friend say something. I didn't know whether he was referring to me or

4 not.

5 May we move on to tab 19? At tab 19, relates to page 38, again

6 it's another alleged phone message, 2nd of November, the ERN number is

7 1172526.

8 Q. Doctor, would you be kind enough to look, please, at the top part

9 of page 38? Again, it's alleged that this was a message given by you. It

10 refers to a grenade attack on the hospital, that they are continuing. One

11 JNA soldier has been heavily wounded near the hospital. His lower

12 extremities had to be amputated. Can I perhaps deal with it this way?

13 Did you at any time contact anyone by telephone informing them that there

14 was a JNA soldier who had been heavily wounded and had his lower

15 extremities amputate? It you please keep your voice up. Can you repeat

16 that, please?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And when are you able to say when it was that you would make that

19 phone call?

20 A. I phoned, as indicated here, on the 2nd of November. I remember

21 clearly how this happened. If there is time, I can explain. I went to

22 the police headquarters to send a fax. However, the attacks were so heavy

23 that I wasn't able to get there. There was a soldier sitting on the steps

24 outside the police building watching a meal being prepared, was struck by

25 a missile which amputated his leg on the spot. We got him into the car

1 and drove him back to the hospital and the shells were still falling and

2 that's why I remember clearly this event. So, unable as I was to use the

3 fax I had to use the phone to let them know.

4 MR. MOORE: I would make application that tab 19 go in.

5 JUDGE PARKER: To whom was the telephone call made.

6 MR. MOORE: Thank you for that.

7 Q. Doctor, are you able to say to whom it was made, the telephone

8 call was made?

9 A. The same as before the Croatian liaison office with the European

10 mission. They were the people I called all the time.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Is there any objection to the receipt of this

12 document?

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Same objection, same proposal,

14 Your Honour.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Marked for identification as 19, Mr. Moore.

16 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

17 JUDGE PARKER: We have gone past our time, Mr. Moore. We have

18 been gathering a little pace. Perhaps tomorrow will be more encouraging.

19 MR. MOORE: I'll do my best.

20 JUDGE PARKER: We must now adjourn, and for the reason indicated

21 earlier today, we will resume at 9.30, if all is well with the proceeding

22 hearing.

23 We adjourn now until tomorrow.

24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m., to

25 be reconvened on Wednesday, the 26th day of October,

1 2005, at 9.30 a.m.

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