Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 673

1 Thursday, 27 October 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Are we ready for the witness, Mr. Moore?

6 MR. MOORE: Yes. I believe so. Thank you very much.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

8 [The witness entered court]

9 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning, doctor. If I could remind you of the

10 affirmation you made at the beginning of your evidence, which still

11 applies.


13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore.

15 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

16 Examined by Mr. Moore: [Continued]

17 Q. Doctor, I'd like to deal now, please, with the following dates,

18 the 18th, 19th, 20th and 21st. May we deal, please, with the evening of

19 the 18th of November. Now, you've already told us that on the 18th you

20 had sent various faxes. Can you in very general terms tell us what the

21 general atmosphere was on the 18th and what occurred, please, and can you

22 try and keep your answers short?

23 A. The atmosphere was very difficult, because previous information

24 that we received that on the 18th the evacuation would start turned out

25 not to materialise. An increasing number of civilians was arriving at the

Page 674

1 hospital and since we had ran out of food and water and blankets and since

2 there were many women, children and the elderly, the situation was very

3 grave.

4 Q. How many civilians actually came to the hospital on the 18th, in

5 very general terms?

6 A. It's hard to say, but more than 500. The entire upper storey

7 which previously was vacant was filled with civilians.

8 Q. Did those civilians remain at the hospital that day and

9 afterwards? Can you tell us what happened to them?

10 A. On that day, and the following days, rather up until the following

11 day they remained at the hospital.

12 Q. Where were they kept? Where were they staying?

13 A. They were in the main hospital building, where we stayed in the

14 underground premises, rather, the basement, and they were in the hallway

15 on the ground floor and the first floor.

16 Q. Did you either see or were you aware of any evacuation of

17 civilians on the 18th?

18 A. In the negotiations that were conducted in Zagreb, it was said

19 that civilians would be evacuated as well. Marin Vidic was in charge of

20 the evacuation of civilians. He was the government commissioner for the

21 municipality of Vukovar. On the 18th the -- there should have been an

22 evacuation of the wounded in the hospital whereas on the 19th and the 20th

23 the civilians were supposed to be evacuated. This is what I learned on

24 that day.

25 Q. Can we move to the 19th, please? What was your expectation? What

Page 675

1 did you think was going to happen on the 19th of November?

2 A. Based on my previous conversation with Minister Hebrang on Monday,

3 the 18th, instead of arriving on Monday, the 18th, the Red Cross was

4 supposed to arrive at 8.00 on the 19th, arrive at the hospital.

5 Therefore, we expected that the evacuation would take one day longer,

6 since the European monitors had called to say that they weren't able to

7 arrive on that day, so they were expected on the 19th.

8 Q. When you say 8.00, is that 8.00 in the morning or 8.00 in the

9 evening?

10 A. Morning.

11 Q. So who actually arrived on the 19th?

12 A. At 8.00 in the morning, on the 19th, nobody arrived. I called

13 Minister Hebrang again and was told that he was on his way to Vinkovci and

14 Nustar to await a convoy there. I spoke to Dr. Branic. I spoke twice to

15 General Raseta and informed him that nobody had come, that there was no

16 International Red Cross there.

17 Q. And what did General Raseta then say to you when you informed him

18 of this fact?

19 A. Based on his information, the International Red Cross was in

20 Vukovar, and was by the bridge. I understood this to mean the railway

21 bridge. Therefore, Marin Vidic, another associate of mine, Senka Vuko,

22 and I went to the railway bridge which was located near the hospital to

23 see whether the representatives of the ICRC were there. That was the

24 first time that we saw trucks full of soldiers there, full of soldiers and

25 reservists, who were there at the bridge and were directing civilians who

Page 676

1 were in a street called Priljevo into the trucks. That was on the 19th in

2 the morning.

3 Q. You've told --

4 A. Around 11.00 in the morning.

5 Q. Thank you very much indeed. You've told us, I think that you

6 spoke to General Raseta more than once. You've told us about one

7 telephone conversation. What about the other telephone conversations?

8 Did you phone him that day again?

9 A. Yes. I called again to say that they were not on the bridge. The

10 soldiers who were at the bridge told me that they knew nothing about any

11 Red Cross whatsoever, and that they were told to go up until the bridge

12 but not cross the bridge, to go to the hospital. I called General Raseta

13 once again and he tried to calm me down, telling me that everything would

14 be all right, and that I should try to get in touch with Colonel Mrksic

15 because he was in charge of that area. I told him that I didn't know how

16 I could get in touch with him and he told me I needn't worry, that they

17 would find me.

18 Q. So did you speak to Colonel Mrksic that day as --

19 A. I did once.

20 Q. Can you tell us when it was, please and how it arose?

21 A. It was on the 19th, on Tuesday. I received a call. I know that

22 Colonel Mrksic told me that everything would be all right, that he was

23 from Vukovar himself, that we attended the same high school, and that

24 everything would be fine.

25 Q. Did you actually meet Colonel Mrksic that day?

Page 677

1 A. I did. I met with him on Tuesday, on the 19th, in the afternoon,

2 in Negoslavci.

3 Q. And can you tell us how that arose that you went to Negoslavci,

4 please?

5 A. At around 12.00, a jeep arrived at the hospital, carrying an

6 officer of the JNA and some soldiers. I went outside and inquired whether

7 the International Red Cross and the European monitors were accompanying

8 them. They said no. He said that he hadn't seen them anywhere in the

9 vicinity. I told him that I was expecting them to arrive at the hospital

10 and asked where I could find them, and then he told me that he had seen

11 some vehicles of European monitors in the village of Negoslavci. Then I

12 asked him whether he could take me there.

13 Q. And did you go there with him?

14 A. Yes. I told my colleagues at the hospital and Marin Vidic that I

15 was going to Negoslavci. Then this officer of the Yugoslav People's Army,

16 I don't know his name or rank, drove me to the village of Negoslavci, to a

17 private house there that had -- that was designated as the Main Staff. It

18 had a sign saying something to that effect. I went inside and I met

19 Colonel Mrksic there.

20 Q. Now, you've told us that you were expecting monitors or the Red

21 Cross. They weren't there. Did you mention this to Colonel Mrksic on

22 this occasion?

23 A. I did.

24 Q. And what did he say about the absence of monitors and the

25 evacuation?

Page 678

1 A. He said that the monitors would arrive and the Red Cross as well,

2 but that that was not important, but because they were just in the way.

3 They were preventing us from agreeing on evacuation among ourselves. It

4 was easier for us to do that than getting the international observers and

5 the Red Cross involved.

6 Q. When that suggestion was made to you, how did you react to that?

7 What was your view?

8 A. I told him that we could not negotiate on evacuation because the

9 agreement had already been signed between the Croatian government and the

10 representative of the JNA, General Raseta, International Red Cross, and

11 European monitors. I said that it had already been agreed that the

12 hospital ought to have been evacuated. That was supposed to happen on the

13 previous day. That the routes had already been agreed upon and that

14 people were awaiting us in Nustar. I told him that the situation at the

15 hospital was very difficult, that there was gaseous gangrene spreading

16 around, and that evacuation should begin as soon as possible.

17 Q. Did you discuss to him -- did you discuss with him the requirement

18 or your desire to have the monitors actually there when the evacuation was

19 going to occur?

20 A. I said that that included the agreement signed in Zagreb, namely

21 that the evacuation would be organised by the International Red Cross in

22 the presence of European monitors.

23 Q. Now, you told us that you had been informed that monitors were in

24 Negoslavci and you went to Negoslavci originally to see them. Did you

25 actually see them when you were there visiting Colonel Mrksic?

Page 679

1 A. I saw -- as I was leaving the meeting, as I left the house, at the

2 end of that road, I saw a white vehicle, and I asked the person escorting

3 me to take me there so that I could speak to European monitors. He said

4 that he had to get an approval for that, and after he asked somebody, I

5 assume that he had asked General -- Colonel Mrksic because this is where

6 he took me, he came back saying that that wasn't necessary, that he would

7 take me back to the hospital, and that the monitors would arrive as soon

8 as possible at the hospital.

9 Q. You say that he had asked permission from someone, you assumed it

10 was Colonel Mrksic. What led to that assumption? Was there anything that

11 he did or said?

12 A. He came back from the vehicle, went into the building and then

13 came back again. I thought that he had probably gone back to ask the

14 colonel but I don't know. I remained in the vehicle waiting for him

15 there.

16 Q. In any event, were you able to speak to the monitors, as they

17 appeared to be?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Why not?

20 A. Because he said that he had to take me back to the hospital.

21 Later, while I was at the hospital, none of the monitors showed up. The

22 first time I talked to the monitors was when I was in the prison in

23 Sremska Mitrovica.

24 Q. At what time approximately did you arrive back at the Vukovar

25 Hospital?

Page 680

1 A. At around 4.00 in the afternoon.

2 Q. And what was the situation like at the hospital when you returned?

3 A. Upon return, we came across a lot of people walking in the streets

4 in columns. Among them I recognised my mother. I asked the officer who

5 drove me to stop. I said that that was my mother there. So my mother

6 came into the car and she said that they were taking them to Velepromet.

7 I asked her where my parents in law were and she said that they had been

8 taken out earlier and then once we arrived at the hospital, I saw a lot of

9 soldiers around the hospital and reservists, among whom I recognised one

10 of our former employees, who worked at the hospital before the war. I

11 asked the man who drove me to get my parents in law from Velepromet and

12 bring them to the hospital so that we could stay all together there. And

13 then he recognised -- then he suggested that Bogdan Kuzmic, the man I

14 recognised among the reservists, should go and get them. However, he did

15 not do that within the following hour, and then I repeated my request,

16 wrote down the names of my father- and mother-in-law on a piece of paper,

17 and then one of the people escorting me brought them to the hospital.

18 Q. Thank you very much. When you refer to soldiers, what soldiers

19 are we talking about? Are we talking about Croatian soldiers, JNA, TO?

20 Are you able to distinguish or can you tell the Court exactly what those

21 soldiers were doing?

22 A. I'm referring to the soldiers of the Yugoslav People's Army. The

23 reservists and some volunteers who wore various kinds of uniform, then the

24 military police of the Yugoslav army, which supposedly secured the

25 entrance into the hospital. That was according to the officer who

Page 681

1 accompanied me. However, when I returned in the afternoon, I saw the

2 soldiers and reservists going through the hospital. The hospital was

3 overflowing with people, the wounded, patients, civilians, who had arrived

4 in the previous two days.

5 Q. When you use the phrase "soldiers were going through the

6 hospital," what sort of things were they doing when they were going

7 through the hospital?

8 A. I don't know. To tell you the truth, I don't know who was milling

9 through the hospital. I know that I heard that Bogdan Kuzmic who used to

10 work there and who was now in the capacity of a reservist was going

11 through the hospital appearing to look for people and asking for names.

12 People were afraid because it seemed that he was on the side of those who

13 were killing us. I saw Jovic, Sasa, talking to some soldiers. I asked

14 him to come to my office and then I told him that he should remain in the

15 room where he had been previously, awaiting the International Red Cross

16 together with us, and he said that he would do that. Then I was told that

17 some volunteers wanted to enter the hospital. I came out and I saw some

18 people wearing camouflage uniforms and helmets with some white ribbons,

19 with cockades on their helmets entering the hospital alongside the

20 Yugoslav People's Army soldiers who were supposedly guarding the entrance.

21 I told them that they were not allowed inside the hospital. They were

22 aggressive. They were angry with me. Dr. Ivankovic came out from the

23 surgical clinic and he told them that they should stop with it, that they

24 should calm down, and then he said to me, "Vesna, you should not say

25 anything else. Just go back to your room and sit there."

Page 682

1 Q. Thank you. Now, you told us that names were being asked for. Was

2 there anything else that was occurring apart from names that caused you

3 concern at that time?

4 A. Everybody was afraid. Mrs. Zeljka Zgonjanin came to tell me that

5 on the floor above us, they were starting to separate the men from women

6 and children. I went out to see what was going on and I could see through

7 the main door that they were taking men outside and putting them on the

8 trucks and driving them away. That was the first time I met

9 Major Sljivancanin. I asked him why they were separating the men, and

10 where they were taking them when we were actually all awaiting evacuation

11 and expecting the first evacuation of the wounded. He was quite arrogant

12 and he told me that I should not meddle in the affairs which were no

13 concern of mine.

14 Q. I want to deal with this piece of evidence in perhaps a little

15 more detail. You say that you saw men being taken outside and placed in

16 trucks. Who was actually taking the men outside?

17 A. Soldiers were, and putting them on lorries.

18 Q. And the men were being taken from where?

19 A. From the main building of the hospital, where they had assembled

20 from all the surrounding shelters all over the town, alongside with women

21 and children, to await evacuation there.

22 Q. When you use the word "men" it can mean many things. It can mean

23 armed soldiers, it can mean doctors in white coats. It can mean any sort

24 of description. Was there anything that made you --

25 A. To the extent that I was able to see, all of them were civilians

Page 683

1 wearing civilian clothes. Men from the ground floor and first floor were

2 leaving the building and getting on to those lorries.

3 Q. Did you express any direct concern to Sljivancanin himself about

4 these men being taken away with no monitors being present?

5 A. Of course I did, as I've said before. That's why I came outside

6 to request protection. I asked where they were taking them but he was

7 quite arrogant. He said I had no business being there asking these things

8 and I should go back to my office.

9 Q. Yes, but the question is really quite specific. Did you actually

10 mention to him that there was an agreement, an evacuation agreement, where

11 monitors were supposed to be present?

12 A. Yes, yes. I told him that we were expecting the International Red

13 Cross and European monitors.

14 Q. And his reply about the European monitors coming was what?

15 A. He said they would be there eventually, that I should just go back

16 to my office and wait there.

17 Q. What time was that about, when you spoke to Sljivancanin?

18 A. About 5.00 or 6.00 p.m.

19 Q. And how many trucks did you see come or how many civilian, male

20 civilians, did you see taken away?

21 A. I was only outside for a brief while. I saw the truck outside the

22 entrance and I saw people getting on to it but I can't tell you exactly

23 how many trucks there were or how many people for that matter.

24 Q. Thank you very much. That was the first time that you met

25 Major Sljivancanin. Did you meet him again that day or evening?

Page 684

1 A. I met him again that evening. He entered my office and said, "You

2 have been waiting for the Red Cross for so long. Well, they are here

3 now." He was accompanied by two Red Cross representatives, one of them I

4 recognised later, Nicholas Borsinger. There was another rather small man

5 who introduced himself as a doctor, and there was an interpreter present

6 too.

7 Q. Did you speak to Nicholas Borsinger about what had occurred prior

8 to his arrival?

9 A. At last someone was there, more specifically the International Red

10 Cross. I had been convinced that they would be the ones conducting our

11 evacuation in much the same way as the previous evacuation had been

12 organised by the Medecins Sans Frontieres one month before. I told them

13 that we had spent two days waiting for them and that the situation in the

14 hospital was very difficult. I told them we were quite disappointed to

15 see them arrive this late. He said that they brought with them some help,

16 some medical equipment and medicine, that perhaps we could use this to

17 alleviate the situation. I told them that it was already too late, that

18 perhaps this might prove useful but that the main thing was for an

19 evacuation to take place.

20 Q. What about the wounded? How were you going to deal with the

21 wounded with Nicholas Borsinger? How was he to ascertain who was --

22 MR. LUKIC: Objection, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Lukic?

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think this is a leading question.

25 The witness said exactly what she had done. She talked to Borsinger and

Page 685

1 now the Prosecutor is suggesting that they were talking about the wounded.

2 I think this is putting a subject to the witness. She was quite clear

3 about what their conversation had been about. The first question by the

4 Prosecutor should have been, Did you in fact talk about anything else, and

5 then a question like this might have followed.

6 MR. MOORE: In my submission I'm perfectly entitled to ask a

7 witness whether there were any specific topics mentioned.

8 JUDGE PARKER: You certainly are, Mr. Moore. The correct position

9 lies between your position and that of Mr. Lukic, and we won't waste time

10 negotiating it. You may certainly turn the witness's attention to a new

11 topic, but there seems to be concern about this conversation and this area

12 so you should not lead and you should not get into the position of

13 suggesting what may have been the conversation, and your questions went

14 too far in that direction.


16 Q. Can you remember any other topic that was discussed?

17 A. We talked about the difficult situation in the hospital. I was

18 adamant that we should go to the hospital so that he could see for himself

19 what the situation was, or, rather, how desperate. I must say I was

20 disappointed. My impression was that Mr. Borsinger was scared of all that

21 he could see around him of the situation that he ended up in. I was quite

22 disappointed. This was different from what we had all expected from the

23 International Red Cross and the international community as a whole.

24 Major Sljivancanin, who was with him, asked if we had made any evacuation

25 lists. I said that we had drawn up lists of people who were wounded with

Page 686

1 their specific diagnoses. I gave him one bundle of those lists. He was

2 adamant that I should hand over all the lists that I had or rather all the

3 copies. I asked, "Why? Aren't we supposed to keep some of the copies?"

4 But he insisted that he should have all of the copies in order to be able

5 to compare. I yielded and gave him all the copies. He asked me if these

6 were all the people to be evacuated and I told him these were all the

7 wounded people in the hospital but that there were names that weren't

8 included on the list, such as nurses and doctors, family members of those

9 wounded, and hospital staff.

10 At this point I expected that the International Red Cross people

11 would remain with us throughout the evacuation. I expected that the

12 wounded would be categorised, classified, according to the seriousness of

13 their injuries and according to when they should be evacuated and where

14 to. Mr. Borsinger then told me that they were unable to stay, that they

15 were supposed to drive back to Belgrade. He said they would return the

16 following morning at 8.00. I was shocked by this. I couldn't believe my

17 ears. I said, "Why? Why don't you stay with us until the evacuation is

18 completed?" He said that there was still nothing he could do about this

19 evacuation. This was an additional surprise and shock. I was expecting

20 the International Red Cross to organise the evacuation itself pursuant to

21 the agreement that had been signed, but he said he had no power over this,

22 that he had no power whatsoever over how exactly the JNA would be

23 organising this evacuation. I asked him to stay with us to witness the

24 evacuation, even if he was himself in no position to actually organise

25 one. He said he would be back the next morning at 8.00 and off they went.

Page 687

1 Q. When Mr. Borsinger informed you that he would be returning the

2 next day, namely the 20th, at 8.00 in the morning, did he say that in the

3 presence of Major Sljivancanin?

4 A. They were in my office, all of them, Major Sljivancanin and he.

5 There was this doctor who said that he was from Switzerland. He stayed

6 for a brief while and then left.

7 Q. Thank you. Presumably, then, Mr. Nicholas Borsinger left; is that

8 right?

9 A. Yes. They all left.

10 Q. Now, you've told us about giving lists to Major Sljivancanin. Did

11 you actually give Borsinger a list as well?

12 A. I gave first copy to Borsinger and the remaining copies to

13 Sljivancanin.

14 Q. And the people who were on that list, can we just in general terms

15 try and assess how many people were on the list that you gave?

16 A. The list contained about 400 people.

17 Q. And the 400 people, were they subdivided in any way?

18 A. Yes. Those seriously injured, who required an ambulance to be

19 transported, there were about 180 of those. The remaining patients were

20 able to move or half mobile, as it were, and could leave on buses.

21 Q. You've told us that Borsinger and Sljivancanin and the others all

22 left. Did you remain in the hospital that night?

23 A. No. Not that night. Later on, Sljivancanin returned on his own

24 and asked me to track down Dr. Antic. He wanted to speak to her. She

25 left to talk to him.

Page 688

1 Q. Thank you.

2 A. I was --

3 Q. That clearly relates to in the hospital, but did you leave the

4 hospital was the question? Or the question actually was, did you remain

5 in the hospital that night?

6 A. That's what I was saying. I was picked up by an officer, a

7 captain, who was there with Sljivancanin. He took me away. He said he

8 had been told to take me back to Negoslavci, which is what he did, and

9 that's where I spent the night, between the 19th and the 20th.

10 Q. Can we deal, please, with Negoslavci? When you were going there,

11 who did you think you were going to see? Or the reason that you were

12 going there?

13 A. On my way there, the thought occurred to me that I might meet

14 Colonel Mrksic there because I had met him before in the same building.

15 However, when I arrived, I didn't see Colonel Mrksic. Major Sljivancanin

16 was there and another man was standing next to him. I think this other

17 man was a captain because that's how they referred to him later on.

18 Q. I'd like to deal, please, with this meeting with Sljivancanin and

19 the gentleman whom you believed was a captain. Where did you actually

20 meet Sljivancanin and the captain?

21 A. In Negoslavci, the same building where I had previously met

22 Colonel Mrksic on the same day.

23 Q. Now, was it in a different office, a different part? Can you be

24 more precise?

25 A. The same office, the same room, as far as I know, where I had

Page 689

1 previously met Colonel Mrksic.

2 Q. And was Sljivancanin standing or not?

3 A. They were both seated at a table. I sat down opposite

4 Sljivancanin.

5 Q. And did you have a discussion with Sljivancanin at this table?

6 A. Yes. Or, rather, he started questioning me. He questioned me

7 about the whereabouts of the Croatian soldiers, about the whereabouts of

8 Jastreb. Jastreb was the nickname of Vukovar's defence commander. I told

9 him I didn't know. The last time I had been with him was days before. He

10 was quite gruff and quite strict. He said how was it possible I had no

11 idea who had been killing his lads and his soldiers?

12 I said I simply didn't know who had been killing them and likewise

13 I had no idea why he, Sljivancanin, had brought them there in the first

14 place, in order to destroy Vukovar. The other man seated next to him said

15 I should watch my mouth because they had other methods to -- they knew for

16 a fact that I had to know all these things because they had been listening

17 in to all my conversations, phone conversations, with Zagreb. I said I

18 had no idea what they wanted me to tell them, that there was no way I

19 could help them about Jastreb's or the soldiers' whereabouts. I said that

20 we, the hospital staff, had been treating everyone alike, Croatian

21 soldiers, JNA soldiers, Serb soldiers, civilians. Sljivancanin then

22 started taunting me, asking me how much I believed Tudjman was prepared to

23 pay in order to have me released, whether I would be my same humanitarian

24 self in one of their other hospitals at Petrova Gora. I felt miserable

25 and I was no longer willing to engage in this conversation.

Page 690

1 Q. How long did that conversation last?

2 A. I can't really say but I think about half an hour.

3 Q. Did you remain at Negoslavci that evening or were you taken back

4 to Vukovar?

5 A. He called one of the soldiers and told him to take me somewhere to

6 spend the night. I requested that I be driven back to the hospital. He

7 said there was no way he could allow that because there, there were

8 shoot-outs so they sent me to a building which they were using as some

9 sort of war hospital. In passing, I saw some mattresses on which soldiers

10 were lying. They took me through a long hall which was used as a

11 dormitory, to another smaller one where I sat down on a bed and spent the

12 night there. At 6.00 sharp the following morning, another soldier came

13 along to take me away. He drove me in a jeep and Marin Vidic was already

14 in the vehicle when I got in. So he drove both of us back to the

15 hospital.

16 Q. Can I just deal, please, with when you return to the hospital on

17 the morning? You said that at 6.00 sharp you left Negoslavci. How long

18 did it take you to get back to the Vukovar Hospital, approximately?

19 A. About half an hour.

20 Q. And when you got back to the hospital, where did you go?

21 A. To my office, which we referred to at the time as the Crisis

22 Staff.

23 Q. And when you were in your office, did you remain in your office?

24 A. I remained in my office. I was guarded by a soldier who was

25 carrying a rifle. Sljivancanin said that I should convene a staff meeting

Page 691

1 of the hospital at 7.00 sharp in a large conference room big enough to

2 hold all of the hospital's personnel.

3 Q. Doctor, just before we go on to that, you said that you were

4 detained by a soldier in your office. Did he say anything to you at that

5 time while you were in your office sitting with him? Did he explain why

6 he was there?

7 A. He said he had been told to be in the room. The phones kept

8 ringing but he would not allow me to pick up the phone. At first he

9 answered the calls but then after some time he stopped answering the

10 calls.

11 Q. Did you speak to him about answering the telephone or using the

12 telephone?

13 A. Yes. I inquired why he was refusing to allow me to answer the

14 phone. There had been calls from Zagreb from the health ministry, from

15 the government, from all over. I asked him to allow me to answer the

16 phone, to convey the situation to whoever was on the other end, and he

17 said that he had been given orders to prevent me from answering the phone.

18 Q. Now, can we move on, please, Major Sljivancanin? You have told us

19 that he came and told you to convene a meeting at 7.00. Is that correct?

20 A. Yes. He said that we should assemble all of our medical staff in

21 a large room that was big enough to hold a meeting with everybody there.

22 I asked nurse Biba and my other associates to inform all the doctors and

23 all the chief nurses to come for a meeting to this room where plaster

24 casts can be made in peace time, that being the largest room in the entire

25 hospital.

Page 692

1 Q. This is a meeting at 7.00. You've already told us that the

2 previous evening there had been a discussion in the presence of

3 Sljivancanin where the evacuation was to be at 8.00. Did you mention to

4 Sljivancanin that the monitors would be coming that day or not?

5 A. When do you mean? When did I mention that?

6 Q. I'm asking if you did.

7 A. That day, you mean? On Wednesday?

8 Q. The 20th. You've told us you got back on the 20th. You've told

9 us that you were in the morning --

10 A. No, I didn't. I just bade my time. I was hoping that as

11 Borsinger had announced, they would be there at 8.00.

12 Q. In relation to the actual meeting itself, how long did it take to

13 gather all the parties?

14 A. I think between 15 and 20 minutes, then everyone was there. The

15 room was nearly full. In addition to Sljivancanin, there were doctors

16 there wearing JNA uniforms, about five or six of them, I think.

17 Sljivancanin gave a speech, explaining to everyone that the JNA had just

18 successfully liberated Vukovar and that all the hospitals would now be

19 within the jurisdiction of the military hospital in Belgrade. He said

20 that all the personnel should be classified according to whether they

21 wanted to leave and be evacuated or stay and work at the hospital. He

22 said that I was no longer in charge, that I was no longer manager, but

23 that the military medical academy was now taking over the hospital. That

24 soldier then walked me back to my office. I waited for the International

25 Red Cross to come. As I was waiting, my mother entered my room to see if

Page 693

1 I was there, if everything was okay. She told me that my father-in-law

2 had left the hospital. I asked where did he go? And she said that a

3 soldier had passed by saying that all those who were able to walk should

4 leave. He grabbed the opportunity because he had great pains in his leg

5 and he had trouble just sitting where he was.

6 Q. Doctor, I just want to deal with the meeting itself. You've told

7 us that all the medical staff were there. Did you see -- perhaps you

8 could be kind enough to -- when you were at the meeting, did you see any

9 exchange between JNA doctors and some of what I will call the Vukovar

10 doctor hospitals -- hospital doctors?

11 A. I saw that some people recognised each other. One of my

12 colleagues recognised some of the doctors, and he went to greet him but

13 the other wouldn't talk to him. I personally didn't recognise any of the

14 doctors. I didn't know who they were. Later on, I heard that one of them

15 went by the last name of Ivezic. I also heard some other names but I

16 didn't know these people before.

17 Q. As far as you're aware, did any of the doctors who worked in the

18 hospital have children, sons or daughters, who had visited Vukovar or had

19 come to Vukovar on the 18th, 19th, as part of the JNA contingent?

20 A. I remember that the son of Dr. Ivankovic came to the hospital with

21 the volunteers who were calling themselves White Eagles. I remember that.

22 Q. And what about Dr. Ivankovic? Did he stay or leave?

23 A. He immediately declared that he would stay.

24 Q. Was there any discussion about the way the Vukovar Hospital had

25 been used throughout the struggle prior to the surrender of Vukovar?

Page 694

1 A. You mean there at the meeting?

2 Q. There at the meeting or just after the meeting.

3 A. As far as I know, no. I have no information to that effect.

4 Later on, I gave a statement in the prison in Sremska Mitrovica about

5 that, as well as in the barracks in Vukovar, but in the hospital itself,

6 no, I don't know.

7 Q. Now, how long did you remain at the hospital that day?

8 A. I can't recall the exact amount of time, but perhaps after an

9 hour, this same officer who had taken me to Negoslavci came, saying that

10 he had orders to take Marin Vidic and me to the meeting with the

11 International Red Cross.

12 Q. And where did they say there was going to be the meeting with the

13 International Red Cross?

14 A. They didn't say anything. He simply said he would take us to the

15 meeting.

16 Q. Did you mention anything to him about that the International Red

17 Cross were coming at 8.00 that morning and it would not be necessary?

18 A. No. He said that he was issued orders to take us to the meeting

19 with the International Red Cross.

20 Q. So when -- where were you taken, then, please?

21 A. They took us to the barracks of the Yugoslav People's Army in

22 Sajmiste. We went to a room where there was a young man in the military

23 police uniform who told us we should just sit there and that woe come and

24 fetch us in half an hour.

25 Q. And did anybody come to collect you from that room at the JNA

Page 695

1 barracks?

2 A. Nobody came until the evening hours. A soldier came, bringing in

3 a sausage and some bread. That was at around three in the afternoon.

4 Then once again, the same person who had brought us there walked into the

5 room in the evening, saying that there had been some changes, that the

6 evacuation had been carried out, and that we had to stay -- spend the

7 night in the barracks.

8 Q. Bearing in mind that you'd been told you were going to a meeting

9 with the Red Cross apparently that morning, clearly didn't do so, and then

10 were told that there was a change, did you say anything to that officer

11 about those changes?

12 A. I didn't say anything to the officer because he was simply issued

13 orders to drive us there. I expected that somebody in charge would come,

14 such as Sljivancanin or Mrksic. However, none of them came. They came to

15 fetch me at 10 in the evening. Marin had to stay on there. They didn't

16 take him out. They only took me to give the statement in the barracks in

17 a room where there were a number of officers, a woman wearing a uniform.

18 There were cameramen. They recorded this. They asked me to give a

19 statement about the functioning of the hospital and my own role during the

20 war.

21 Q. Dr. Bosanac, just before you proceed --

22 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, I don't know when the Court is

23 considering taking a break. I'll explain why so there is no problem about

24 it. I can proceed quite easily. If one looks at the hard copy that the

25 Court has, one can see on the index number 6. The doctor does not know to

Page 696

1 what I am referring at this time but the Defence do. This is a document

2 that was created by Dr. Bosanac last week when I went to Vukovar. It has

3 not been -- it has been shown to the Defence, as soon it was possible to

4 do so, but has not been admitted in as an exhibit in a formal way. I felt

5 it was only fair that the Defence should see this prior to Dr. Bosanac

6 giving evidence. I was actually going to deal with it but I wanted to see

7 if there were any objections to that course.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Do we understand that you suggest an adjournment

9 now so that you can have discussions with the Defence?

10 MR. MOORE: Well, the Defence know that I clearly was intending to

11 use it at some time. We had referred to perhaps Dr. Bosanac coming back

12 on another occasion to deal with other matters. I can deal with it now or

13 I can deal with it later. I'm quite relaxed about that.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Is the answer yes?

15 MR. MOORE: It could be yes or it could be no. I don't really

16 mind one way or the other --

17 JUDGE PARKER: No. Is the answer that you were planning to

18 discuss with the Defence during the break what course should be taken

19 about this matter at this stage?

20 MR. MOORE: Well, I'm wondering if the Defence want to make any

21 objection now because if they do, I'm quite happy to argue it now. It's

22 not something that they have been caught unawares, as it were.

23 JUDGE PARKER: I see Mr. Lukic, you're volunteering.

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, before the witness

25 entered the courtroom, we were informed by the Prosecutor that he had been

Page 697

1 in Vukovar, or rather that he had talked to Mrs. Bosanac and that she had

2 given him some documents which had not previously been disclosed to us and

3 that he would perhaps put a question based on those documents. At the

4 time he didn't told us that this would involve this document marked as

5 annex 6 in this set of documents. He simply said that this involved some

6 documentation from the hospital. This is what we discussed. We said that

7 in principle, the position of the Defence would be such that they do not

8 want to cross-examine a witness before familiarising themselves in detail

9 with a document and obtain instructions from their clients. This is the

10 first time that my colleagues and I hear that it pertains to this

11 particular document. I don't know what this entails. As far as I can

12 see, this is a list of victims and I don't know if this pertains to this

13 document, that this is what he talked about with Mrs. Bosanac. If that

14 was the case we would ask the Prosecutor that if he does put any questions

15 to the witness relating to that, that we be given extra time in order to

16 analyse this. So we don't know to what document this pertains. Our

17 initial belief was that this involved some medical documentation and this

18 is why we are somewhat taken by surprise now.

19 MR. MOORE: I can deal with the matter quite easily. I can leave

20 this topic to another occasion because they come into two different

21 categories. I needn't go into it in open court. So I can deal with this

22 comment on a later occasion. I'm quite happy to do that.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Moore. I think that will be the

24 most practical at the moment but could the Chamber further ask of you that

25 you make clear to the members of the Defence what it is that you propose

Page 698

1 about this document and what its nature and origin is, because that seems

2 to be unknown and obscure at the moment. And with that information, it

3 may be that the Defence will be in a position to cross-examine the witness

4 on the topic during the present session of evidence. I mean by that while

5 the witness is here at this moment. What the Chamber is concerned about

6 is to avoid, if possible, the need for Dr. Bosanac to return at some later

7 time. That would be an unfortunate occurrence if it proved to be

8 necessary. So if that can be avoided, we would like that to happen.

9 MR. MOORE: To assist the Court, this document quite simply is at

10 the back of the indictment. It is the name of alleged victims.

11 Dr. Bosanac, as indeed my learned friends, looked at this document and was

12 asked if she would be able to recognise the names of any of the

13 individuals and their functions, whether they were civilian, military.

14 Indeed she devised her own category. So this document itself comes from

15 the indictment. It was disclosed to my learned friends. And the

16 categories, S, C, are her categories.

17 JUDGE PARKER: I see. So this is not a new document.

18 MR. MOORE: It is a document --

19 JUDGE PARKER: All that you are proposing from it is the doctor,

20 from her knowledge of the hospital staff and patients and so forth, to

21 have her identify which patients fell into different possible categories?

22 MR. MOORE: Correct.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Of the list of names that are in the indictment?

24 MR. MOORE: Correct. The second category of documents, again, my

25 learned friends have not seen that, is basically the patient lists through

Page 699

1 1991, clearly targeting, let us say, from June onwards, the names of

2 patients, the nature of the injury, where they were injured, the

3 treatment, and what happened to them, whether they were male, whether they

4 were female. It's something that had not been achievable before we had

5 requested on an RFA for the actual documents so that we could compile our

6 own list. That was not -- we got no reply in relation to that from the

7 authorities. By pure chance I managed to find that there were -- there

8 was a document that was in existence in computer form, which gave those

9 details. We now have those details, but that has only recently arrived.

10 It came with Dr. Bosanac. And I only obtained that myself on Monday. So

11 that has gone to the evidence unit to be collated and has not as yet

12 received an ERN number and has not as yet been looked at with any great

13 detail.

14 So they break into two categories. There document is from the

15 back of the indictment. It relates to the individuals. The other relates

16 to the nature of injuries, the number of people, the extent of injury,

17 whether it be proportionate or disproportionate, which goes, shall I say,

18 to a broader issue, what might be considered the widespread and systematic

19 element.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

21 [Trial chamber confers]

22 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Vasic?

23 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

24 I would like to add something that perhaps could be useful. The

25 Defence does not quite understand whether the list we received from our

Page 700

1 learned friend represents notes of Mrs. Bosanac based on the computer

2 documentation mentioned by the Prosecutor or whether this is a reflection

3 of her memories, as an aide-memoire, in which case it is not a problem.

4 However, if this was produced on the basis of documentation that has not

5 been processed yet, then in that case, the Defence should be given extra

6 time to prepare for cross-examination and the opportunity to see the

7 documentation used in order to produce this.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Vasic.

9 Mr. Moore?

10 MR. MOORE: Yes, I can help with regard to it. The list that is

11 in the -- from the back of the indictment was, as far as I'm aware,

12 created from her memory. People that she thought she knew and their

13 specific occupations. In relation to what I will call the computer

14 records, as far as I'm aware, she did not refer to that when she was

15 compiling the list. However, I can clarify it when she is on oath. But

16 that is my understanding.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Moore.

18 The Chamber's view is that the list which you have at your tab 6,

19 which is from the indictment and on which the witness has made, as you

20 understand it from her memory and knowledge, annotations, can be dealt

21 with in the course of her evidence at this moment. It is not really

22 practical for the Chamber to make any ruling in respect of this further

23 information based upon newly acquired computer record until it is

24 available to the Defence and to the Chamber. It is of concern that if you

25 had the document on Monday, we still don't have it. If you would take

Page 701

1 that firmly on board, Mr. Moore. But that being the case, we would hope

2 that it will be able to be distributed very quickly. That will then

3 enable the Defence to determine whether they need an opportunity to

4 prepare for some questioning on the basis of that document, and it would

5 enable the Chamber to determine whether that request by the Defence was

6 reasonable. We can't do that at the moment, as neither the Defence nor

7 the Chamber has any knowledge.

8 So with respect to the document at tab 6, you may proceed at the

9 moment, and we await the entirely new documents at the earliest

10 opportunity. That I think brings us to a convenient time to adjourn.

11 Mr. Moore, you have something further?

12 MR. MOORE: Yes, it's just one small problem so the Court thinks

13 that we are not being dilatory. The document we have has names and then

14 of course diagnoses. The problem that we have is quite simply this: They

15 are hospital records. The names of the individuals usually can only be

16 released with the permission of the patient. In addition to that, the

17 occupation of the person and the address of the person is on that list as

18 well. Now, it is quite clear that some of those individuals who were on

19 the hospital records were what I will call Croatian defenders or fighters,

20 and there is a clear reluctance by individuals for their names to be

21 disclosed to the Defence. So that is why that that matter has not been

22 dealt with in the way that one normally would do. I can certainly

23 disclose the document immediately with regard to the names being excluded

24 or any identifiable or identifying features. But the problem is, and I

25 cannot give a definitive answer on that, as whether in actual fact any

Page 702

1 individual who is nominated in a document, where it may strike at their

2 safety, whether in fact one is entitled to disclose such material.

3 JUDGE PARKER: What you are saying, Mr. Moore, suggests to me at

4 this moment at least, I've not had a chance to discuss with my other

5 members of the Chamber, that you may find yourself unable to make any use

6 of this further document at all. Or at least, you might only make

7 reference to part of it after there has been some intensive deliberation

8 of issues involving confidentiality, and fairness of the trial.

9 MR. MOORE: Yes.

10 JUDGE PARKER: So unless and until we hear more of it, from the

11 Chamber's point of view it will regard it as not a document in the trial.

12 MR. MOORE: Very well.

13 JUDGE PARKER: You will have to take formal measures to bring it

14 within the trial process and if there are issues of the nature that you

15 indicate, clearly they will have to be formally dealt with.

16 MR. MOORE: Yes. Thank you very much.

17 JUDGE PARKER: We will resume at 10 minutes to the hour of 11.00.

18 --- Recess taken at 10.23 a.m.

19 --- On resuming at 10.54 a.m.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore.

21 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

22 Your Honour, would the E-Court throw up the following document

23 number 04637997 -- perhaps "produce" is more attractive than "throw up".

24 And I'd like to refer to the following pages, they are 998, 999, 000, 001,

25 and 002. I, of course, can do it by way of the hard copy method if there

Page 703

1 is any electronic problem.

2 Thank you very much.

3 Q. Dr. Bosanac, you had the dubious pleasure of my company last week

4 when I saw you in relation to this case and your evidence. Do you

5 remember being shown this document by the investigator and being asked if

6 you would be able to identify any of the individuals or actually nominate

7 whether -- what they were doing at the hospital? Do you remember that

8 particular conversation?

9 A. I do.

10 Q. If we just deal with page 998, please, and if it is possible to

11 highlight the index at the top, which is handwritten. Thank you very

12 much. Doctor, is it correct to say that that is your handwriting?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And what exactly does this represent, please?

15 A. I attempted to mark the names, indicating which people I knew and

16 what was the position, what was the role of these people, whether they

17 were medical staff, non-professional staff, whether they were civilians or

18 Croatian soldiers. And what you see in the heading is the key, the

19 legend, where I used the asterisk to mark the hospital workers, then I

20 used the cross to mark the non-professional staff at the hospital. "S" is

21 the symbol I used for wounded soldiers, and then the next category,

22 political enemies or opponents, was the most difficult category because I

23 wasn't quite sure as to who played which role. And then I used letter "C"

24 to denote civilians.

25 We can go name by name and I can tell you what I know about some

Page 704

1 people. I need to mention once again that I don't know all the people.

2 However --

3 Q. Doctor, before you do that, I just want to deal with the legend in

4 a little more detail. So if we start at the very top, there is a star and

5 then what seems to be "WH." That is the workers in the hospital; is that

6 right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Coming down we have got a cross, perhaps it's -- my copy is rather

9 bad, it seems to be "HW." And then like an "H" again. Is that right?

10 A. Yes. Help workers at the hospital.

11 Q. So we've got help workers and then we've got what I call ditto.

12 So help workers in the hospital, including civilians and soldiers, is that

13 what you've written down?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. The "VS" is soldiers?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And then a slightly unusual "W," in my language, I suppose, "P,"

18 then a cross?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Political opponents. And then "C" for civilians.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now it's not my aim to go through all these individuals. I'm sure

23 you can be asked lots of questions about it. But when it came to putting

24 the marks here, are you absolutely certain in relation to all your marks

25 or are -- how exactly, what was the process that you adopted?

Page 705

1 A. I'm certain about the ones that I did mark. I placed question

2 marks wherever I was not certain.

3 Q. Well, I am not going to go through this list. It's

4 self-explanatory, I would submit. Would you very quickly like to go

5 through one more time to confirm the marks that you have had -- or the

6 marks that you have made? I don't know if there is a translation problem.

7 Perhaps the question can be asked again.

8 Does the doctor require any more time to look at this list?

9 A. No. I do not require any more time, but I would like to say that

10 at the bottom of this table, if I may, it says there is a cross and there

11 is a missing person whose remains have not been identified. But that's

12 not consistent with the list. Most of the persons in this list have been

13 identified, their bodies, that is, from the mass grave at Ovcara. So this

14 must be an old list or, rather, an old document.

15 Q. When it came to actually compiling or shall I say ticking the

16 names and assessing who was what, did you have any help when you marked

17 out this category, whether they be soldiers, political opponents, help

18 workers, et cetera, or did you do it by yourself?

19 A. By myself.

20 Q. Doctor, I have no further questions for you on this matter. Thank

21 you very much.

22 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, I wonder --

23 JUDGE PARKER: Are you planning to tender that?

24 MR. MOORE: That's -- there was another document as well. There

25 is the peace agreement I think was not tendered as an exhibit and also

Page 706

1 this document. So --

2 JUDGE PARKER: You have this document at the moment. Are you

3 tendering this?

4 MR. MOORE: I am tendering both for exhibits.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Separately, though?

6 MR. MOORE: Of course.

7 JUDGE PARKER: This document, which is the marked schedule or

8 annex to the indictment -- Mr. Vasic?

9 THE REGISTRAR: This will be exhibit number 30 --

10 JUDGE PARKER: If you would pause a moment, please.

11 Mr. Vasic, sorry.

12 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. In view of

13 the fact that my colleague proposed these two documents separately, I rose

14 on behalf of all three Defence teams to give our position on the agreement

15 that we spoke about. I assume that it is the agreement that we discussed.

16 All of us Defence teams have certain reserves about this document. This

17 is one of the few -- very few documents the authenticity of which the

18 Defence teams are likely to be challenging. We are facing a situation

19 where we have to check the facts in relation to this document.

20 Therefore, the Defence would like to have this document marked for

21 identification in case we find certain facts that are inconsistent, we

22 would then be challenging the authenticity of this document.

23 This is an agreement which the Prosecutor claims was signed in

24 Zagreb, the so-called evacuation agreement. Based on what the Prosecutor

25 has disclosed to the Defence, it appears that five parties were involved

Page 707

1 in this. The agreement bears three signatures. At the bottom of the

2 agreement itself, where we find the signatures of the JNA representative,

3 the words "JNA" were added by hand, in our submission. That is easily

4 identifiable.

5 As for the signatories of this agreement, at this point in time

6 the Defence would like to say we have serious doubts that it was signed

7 the way my colleague from the Prosecution said it was. The Defence is

8 making an effort to check these facts and will duly be informing both the

9 Trial Chamber and our learned friends from the OTP of the result of our

10 inquiries. Namely, whether we intend to challenge the authenticity of

11 this document or whether we intend to withdraw any doubts that we may have

12 at this time.

13 Therefore, the Defence moves that this document be marked for

14 identification until such time as we have had an opportunity to check the

15 necessary facts in relation to how this agreement was signed.

16 As for the other proposed document, the Defence has no objections.

17 The list that the witness, Mrs. Bosanac marked based on her recollection

18 of events, as she said herself. Thank you.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore, we will deal first with the list taken

20 from the annex to the indictment. That will be received as an exhibit.

21 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit number 39, Your Honours.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

23 Do you have any submission about the proposal that the agreement

24 which you have been referring to should now be marked for identification

25 rather than exhibited?

Page 708

1 MR. MOORE: No. We accept that the Defence are entitled to check

2 the authenticity and would make no objection at this stage.

3 JUDGE PARKER: The agreement document, which has been referred to

4 in the course of evidence, will be now marked for identification. The

5 number of that?

6 THE REGISTRAR: Would be number 40, Your Honours.

7 JUDGE PARKER: You've got the document now electronically?


9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

10 Yes, Mr. Moore, anything further?

11 MR. MOORE: No, thank you very much.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

13 Doctor, Defence counsel will now, I expect, want to ask you some

14 questions. I turn first to Mr. Vasic.

15 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I will be the

16 first to cross-examine the witness on behalf of the Defence.

17 Cross-examined by Mr. Vasic:

18 Q. Good morning, Mrs. Bosanac.

19 A. Good morning.

20 Q. I wish to introduce myself first of all, I'm Miroslav Vasic, first

21 of all, appearing on behalf of Mile Mrksic. We speak the same language.

22 Therefore I would like to ask you to please make a short break after my

23 questions so that the interpreters can accurately interpret the

24 proceedings, in order to allow everybody else in the courtroom to follow

25 our exchange.

Page 709

1 Yesterday, when answering a question by my learned friend, you

2 said you became manager of the medical centre in Vukovar on the 25th of

3 July 1991. Were you appointed after the previous manager, a Serb, had

4 resigned facing pressure from the Croatian health ministry?

5 A. The previous manager, Dr. Rade Popovic, a neuropsychiatrist,

6 resigned. He was from Montenegro, as a matter of fact. He resigned. I'm

7 not sure about the reasons why he did so, but he resigned. I was a member

8 of the employees' council and I was appointed acting director by vote.

9 Q. Thank you very much, Mrs. Bosanac. Do you know whether in May

10 1991 a new manager was appointed to Radio Vukovar, a Croat replacing a

11 Serb?

12 A. I don't know exactly who was the manager and when, but I remember

13 I listened to the radio and the information was that Professor Lenjak had

14 become manager of Radio Vukovar.

15 Q. While listening to the radio, did you perhaps hear that in May

16 1991, Radio Vukovar changed its name?

17 A. I'm not sure when that occurred. I know that it was now called

18 Croatian Radio Vukovar.

19 Q. Thank you. I would like to deal now with the background of what

20 preceded the events you testified about during the examination-in-chief.

21 You're an intellectual and you must be aware of the fact that after the

22 multi-party elections in Croatia, in the Republic of Croatia in 1990 which

23 resulted in an HDZ victory, the constitution of the Republic of Croatia

24 was changed?

25 A. Yes, I'm aware of that.

Page 710

1 Q. Can you perhaps tell me whether these changes in the constitution

2 changed the constitutional position of Serbs in Croatia, in the Republic

3 of Croatia?

4 A. I can't say. I did not study the constitution that closely.

5 Q. Do you know what the results of the elections were in 1990 in

6 Vukovar municipality? Who won?

7 A. I can't say exactly but I know that the local elections took place

8 in the spring of 1991. That's in fact what I believe. It was not in

9 1990, as you stated. I can't talk about the specific percentages but I

10 know that several parties entered the municipality and that Slavko

11 Dokmanovic became president of municipality, while Mr. Soldo was president

12 of the executive committee. These are things that I remember but I can't

13 give you the exact results.

14 Q. Do you remember which party Slavko Dokmanovic was a member of?

15 A. I can't be sure about this but I think it was a Communist Party,

16 just that I can't remember which one. I can't say.

17 Q. Was Ivica Racan perhaps the president of that party for all of

18 Croatia at the time?

19 A. I really don't know. I know that there was a split in the

20 Communist Party at the time, one faction being in favour of Croatia, the

21 other in favour of Yugoslavia. But I really can't remember.

22 Q. Do you know for how long Mr. Slavko Dokmanovic remained president

23 of Vukovar municipality?

24 A. Not in terms of exact dates but I know it was after the notorious

25 occurrences in Borovo Selo when 12 Croatian police officers were killed.

Page 711

1 Tensions began to mount and some roadblocks had already been set up. I

2 remember watching Novi Sad television. Mr. Dokmanovic was there, whether

3 in Trpinja -- he was from Trpinja but I can't remember it was Trpinja or

4 not. He was from one of those villages and he was explaining to the

5 viewers why he was not able to go to work. I'm not sure whether it was

6 June or July. I just know what I heard. Mr. Dokmanovic was unable to go

7 to work in Vukovar and the Croatian government appointed an acting

8 president, Mr. Marin Vidic, also known as Bili.

9 Q. Mr. Slavko Dokmanovic was an ethnic Serb, wasn't he?

10 A. I think so. But I don't know. I did not know

11 Mr. Slavko Dokmanovic personally.

12 Q. What about the commissioner appointed by the Croatian government?

13 What ethnic group did he belong to?

14 A. He was a Croat. Marin Vidic. He was from Lovas.

15 Q. Do you know which party the commissioner belonged to?

16 A. No.

17 Q. If, as you said, Slavko Dokmanovic was supposed to reach Vukovar

18 through Trpinja would he have had to go through Borovo Naselje?

19 A. Yes. He could have taken a roundabout route but the one you have

20 just suggested was certainly the shortest.

21 Q. Do you know anyone named Blago Zadro?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. In January 1991, was this person president of the executive

24 committee of the HDZ?

25 A. I don't know.

Page 712

1 Q. Do you know anyone named Tomislav Mercep?

2 A. Yes, I do.

3 Q. In January 1991, was he president of the municipal committee, the

4 municipal HDZ committee for Vukovar?

5 A. I don't know.

6 Q. Was he perhaps the secretary of the secretariat for All People's

7 Defence for Vukovar municipality?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you know that in July in Borovo Selo, a cleansing operation had

10 been carried out to cleanse the northern sector of Borovo Naselje. This

11 was something conducted by the HDA [as interpreted] in order to expel the

12 ethnic Serbs from that village?

13 A. No, I'm not aware of that.

14 Q. Do you know about the situation at the Vukovar police station in

15 1991?

16 A. I know that Mr. Stipo Pole was chief of the police station. For a

17 while, the post was held by someone I didn't know. Whether he was killed

18 in Borovo Selo or whether the change was caused by something else, I don't

19 know. But in the summer of 1991, when I became hospital manager, Stipo

20 Pole was chief of the Vukovar police station.

21 Q. Do you know that in the spring of 1991, Serb members of the

22 Vukovar police station were fired and that a large number of Croat reserve

23 police officers were brought in as replacements?

24 A. No. I'm not familiar with that.

25 Q. You mentioned the 2nd of May events in Borovo Selo. Can you tell

Page 713

1 us whether, after what happened there, wounded Croatian police officers

2 were brought to the hospital?

3 A. I know that an ambulance from the Vukovar medical centre was sent

4 out. I was not part of the hospital management at the time. I'm not sure

5 who was in charge. I know that some people had been killed and that the

6 wounded had been brought in, and then taken elsewhere by helicopter. I'm

7 unable to provide any details, though. At the time, I worked at a

8 specialist medical station. I conducted medical examinations of children.

9 Q. But you were, after all, working at the hospital, weren't you. In

10 view of that fact, did you know that the ethnic makeup of those employed

11 by the hospital actually changed between May and July, at the expense of

12 Serbs? Isn't it true that ethnic Serbs were leaving the hospital?

13 A. Yes. I do know that many of them no longer came to work. They

14 left the hospital. They no longer came to work. They were probably using

15 their annual leave and whatever days off they had. I saw them on Serbian

16 television, that they were setting up a war hospital in Bobota, some of

17 them at least.

18 Q. You did not speak to any of the Serbs working in the hospital at

19 the time? You didn't speak to them about why they were leaving, whether

20 perhaps they were afraid of something?

21 A. Personally, I did not speak to any of them. I was on duty one

22 night with a nurse from Negoslavci. Her husband phoned and told her to go

23 home immediately because they were taking their children to Sid. She was

24 taken aback. She said she would not allow her children to go anywhere and

25 that she was unable to leave work. She was shocked and surprised. My

Page 714

1 impression was that she was really taken aback. However, the next day she

2 did not turn up for work. In my opinion, this is something that was

3 organised. People were taking their children to Serbia. I also had some

4 patients from Borovo Selo. Their mothers had said that they would like to

5 come and visit the hospital but that they were not allowed to go. Rather,

6 they were being sent by boat across to Backa.

7 Q. After the 2nd of May, was a Crisis Staff established at the

8 hospital? And was the task of this Crisis Staff to prepare the hospital

9 for an emergency? Was, in fact, a state of emergency declared?

10 A. I can't say what happened after the 2nd of May. I can tell you

11 what happened after I was appointed manager of the Vukovar Hospital.

12 Q. Were you in fact a member of this staff at one point in time?

13 A. I was the person who set it up. I really don't know whether there

14 had been a staff before I came along.

15 Q. At the time, were there any soldiers in the barracks in Vukovar?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. But there were no armed clashes at the time, right?

18 A. There were soldiers in the barracks, military vehicles drove

19 through the town and a daily basis on their way to Borovo Selo and back.

20 Armoured military vehicles were passing to and through.

21 Q. Do you know that in the spring of 1991, Serb houses were torched

22 and demolished in Vukovar and the Borba media company kiosk was in fact

23 bombed?

24 A. I can't say exactly when I heard this but I did hear that some of

25 the pubs or bars were blown up. The rumour was that the owners themselves

Page 715

1 had planted the explosive in order to collect the insurance money, but it

2 wasn't really certain who had done that. One thing I'd like to point out

3 is that the armed clashes in Vukovar started after 12 Croatian police

4 officers had been killed in Borovo Selo.

5 Q. Are you trying to say that there were -- was some combat activity

6 immediately following the 2nd of May 1991?

7 A. In your question, in one of your questions, you said during the

8 summer, when there was still no conflicts. And what I was trying to say

9 is, is that the conflict actually broke out when those policemen were

10 killed. In July, the first shells started landing on Borovo Naselje.

11 Q. Do you know the following names: Vlada Skeledzija, Branko

12 Mirijanic [phoen], Mladen Mirkic? They were from Borovo Naselje?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Do you know that at one point in time the barracks in Vukovar was

15 placed under siege by the members of the National Guards Corps?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Do you know that on the 3rd of September 1991, upon orders of the

18 commissioner, the water supply was cut off for the barracks as well as

19 electricity, following which there was an armed attack on the barracks?

20 A. I'm not aware of that.

21 Q. Do you know when the municipal Crisis Staff in Vukovar was

22 founded?

23 A. I don't know the date, but I think that was in July.

24 Q. Who were members of that Crisis Staff?

25 A. The Crisis Staff was led by the government commissioner,

Page 716

1 Mr. Marin Vidic. In addition to him, there were people from civilian

2 protection, from the water works company, and so on. I know that the

3 person representing the hospital on the staff was Dr. Matos.

4 Q. Were there any military commanders or MUP commanders on the Crisis

5 Staff?

6 A. I did not attend those meetings regularly. And I'm not sure how

7 this Crisis Staff functioned. I know I went several times, once or twice,

8 to attend the meetings. Then I saw Mr. Polet, a representative of the

9 police force, but I saw no military representatives. That was in August.

10 Q. Can you tell me whether the people you mentioned were also members

11 of the HDZ, in addition to being members of the Crisis Staff?

12 A. No. They were not. I don't know nor a fact but I don't think

13 that they were.

14 Q. Can you tell us how come that you, as hospital director, were not

15 a member of the Crisis Staff? How come that another doctor from the

16 hospital was on the staff but not you?

17 A. Well, I had to deal with various organisational issues, and to go

18 to the meetings was something that somebody else could do and come back

19 and brief us at the hospital. Therefore, Dr. Matos was designated as the

20 go between the hospital and the Crisis Staff.

21 Q. Was there also a war hospital within the Vukovar medical centre?

22 A. Well, unfortunately, in view of the situation that developed in

23 the following months, it turned into a war hospital, but it did not exist

24 as a separate unit within the Vukovar medical centre. What happened was

25 that practically the entire hospital, starting in late August until late

Page 717

1 November when it was occupied, functioned as a war hospital.

2 Q. Isn't it true that Dr. Njavro Djuro was in charge of the war

3 hospital?

4 A. He was designated by the main medical staff in Zagreb as chief of

5 war surgery because he happened to be a surgeon.

6 Q. In examination-in-chief, we saw that, according to your words, you

7 applied to all relevant highest authorities in the Republic of Croatia who

8 did nothing to change the difficult situation in which the hospital found

9 itself. Was there somebody else perhaps who was better placed than you to

10 address such requests to the authorities of the Republic of Croatia?

11 A. I don't know whether there was another person other than me. I

12 wasn't the only one who sent out faxes and asked for help. A lot of us

13 did that. Dr. Njavro, myself, Marin Vidic. Croatian Radio Vukovar kept

14 issuing calls for help.

15 Q. Dr. Matos who was a member of the Crisis Staff, did he perhaps

16 have greater power when it comes to the dealings with the authorities of

17 the Republic of Croatia?

18 A. Dr. Matos was the liaison between the hospital and the municipal

19 Crisis Staff. Therefore, I do not think that he had greater power or

20 greater authority, if this is what you prefer, to ensure that the Vukovar

21 Hospital got more help. It was absolutely impossible, in view of the

22 weapons that the JNA had brought to Vukovar. Not a bird could fly

23 through, let alone eight convoys. There with were so many planes flying

24 over and so many shells and bombs.

25 Q. Throughout the conflict, were there any helicopters that flew

Page 718

1 between the rest of Croatia and Vukovar, and were there any helicopters

2 landing at the stadium near the hospital?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Didn't you propose, in one of your calls for help, that the

5 assistance for the hospital be provided in that way, because that was the

6 only viable option?

7 A. Naturally I did. I proposed all kinds of options, but there was

8 no chance for a helicopter to get there without being shot by the JNA

9 artillery.

10 Q. Can you tell me whether you, as hospital director, appointed a

11 doctor to serve as a liaison with the National Guards Corps?

12 A. What do you mean National Guards Corps?

13 Q. Well, I mean the military formation. Was there a doctor who was a

14 liaison with them?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Yesterday, you spoke about the artillery firing, multi-barrelled

17 rocket launchers firing from the left bank of the Danube and you were able

18 to see them. Can you please tell us whether these tanks and multi-barrel

19 rocket launchers were located in Backa which is in the Republic of Serbia?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Does this mean that these units were outside of the territory of

22 Vukovar municipality?

23 A. That is still a contentious issue. I personally believe that the

24 border runs through Bend and that on the left bank of the Danube, where I

25 personally saw tanks, that that part is still considered the territory of

Page 719

1 the former municipality of Vukovar.

2 Q. As I see it, that's on the north side of Vukovar municipality.

3 A. That's on the left bank of the Danube, directly across the city of

4 Vukovar.

5 Q. Yesterday, during your testimony, you said that the planes

6 attacked Mitnica even though there was no combat activity there. Don't

7 you know that on the 18th of November, Mitnica battalion, which was part

8 of the National Guards Corps, surrendered? It was part of the National

9 Guards Corps of Vukovar.

10 A. I do know that on the 18th of November, some of the members of the

11 National Guards Corps, led by Filip Karaula surrendered. However,

12 yesterday in my testimony, I did not mention that Mitnica was a civilian

13 settlement and that there was not a single military target that could be

14 bombed by planes. As far as I know, members of the National Guards Corps

15 held borderline positions towards the area where the siege was laid, siege

16 of Vukovar. The planes destructed everything, schools, hospital, just

17 about everything.

18 Q. Mrs. Bosanac, I apologise. I have to interrupt you and ask you

19 this. Wasn't this the last stronghold of the National Guards Corps that

20 remained there until the 18th of November? So can we agree on this, that

21 the stronghold of the National Guards Corps is a legitimate military

22 target?

23 A. I can't say that that was the National Guards Corps stronghold

24 because there was not a single military facility there which could have

25 housed them.

Page 720

1 Q. Do you know something about the course of the combat in Mitnica?

2 A. I only know what I heard. I never personally went there.

3 Q. Thank you. In your testimony, when you were asked by my learned

4 friend, you said that the members of the JNA reached the hospital for the

5 first time on the 19th of November 1991. Is that true?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You also said that an officer came with two soldiers and took you

8 to Negoslavci. Did this officer enter the hospital building in the

9 morning of the 19th?

10 A. He came to the reception desk of the hospital.

11 Q. On the previous day, on the 18th, in the presence of a JNA

12 officer, did you speak in the hospital with General Antun Tus, accusing

13 him of not sending aid and saying that that was the cause of the fall of

14 Vukovar and that it was too late to send any kind of assistance?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Do you know that members of the National Guards Corps, in the last

17 days of combat, killed -- killed people and threw them out of the hospital

18 in order to make space for them there?

19 A. That's not true. At least not while I was at the hospital.

20 Q. Did you at least hear such stories?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Do you know that weapons were found at the hospital, discarded by

23 the members of the National Guards Corps?

24 A. I heard that for the first time in prison, when I was interrogated

25 about whether there were any weapons in the hospital.

Page 721

1 Q. Thank you. When you were in Negoslavci, did Colonel Mrksic thank

2 you for treating soldier Jovic?

3 A. Yes, he did.

4 Q. Did Colonel Mrksic send food and water to the hospital which

5 arrived approximately at the same time when you returned from Negoslavci

6 to the hospital?

7 A. Yes, he did.

8 Q. Yesterday, you said that during those last days, the 17th, 18th,

9 and 19th, civilians started arriving in the hospital, because they knew

10 there would be an evacuation. How were they able to know that, if they,

11 as you told us, stayed continuously in shelters and basements? How were

12 they able then to acquire such information?

13 A. They probably heard it from each other, heard that an evacuation

14 was being prepared. People knew about that.

15 Q. The flow of the wounded, did that subside after the 17th of

16 November?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What about the wounded who were members of the National Guards

19 Corps?

20 A. The number of the wounded did decrease. The last major intake was

21 on the 15th of November, in the evening.

22 Q. Members of the Guards and MUP who were withdrawing from other

23 parts of the town, were they all moving in the direction of the hospital?

24 A. Members of the National Guards Corps and police force in those

25 days, upon piercing and breaking the siege, were actually leaving Vukovar.

Page 722

1 Only the wounded were in the hospital.

2 Q. What you are trying to say is that the majority of ZNG members and

3 police force left Vukovar despite this siege?

4 A. I don't know whether the majority of them managed to flee Vukovar,

5 but I know that following these operations a lot of them ended up in

6 prisons throughout Serbia.

7 Q. The entire command structure, including the commander of Vukovar

8 defence, Mile Dedakovic and the second commander, Borkovic, did they all

9 leave Vukovar?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Yesterday, when asked by my learned friend, you said you were

12 concerned about what was going to happen once the military reached the

13 hospital, and do you know that one of the main conditions for the Mitnica

14 battalion to surrender was the condition that it surrender to the

15 military?

16 A. No.

17 Q. If we know that the Mitnica Battalion surrendered in Mitnica, that

18 the command structure of the National Guards Corps and MUP had left

19 Vukovar, can you tell us what happened to their other members? Did they

20 perhaps seek shelter in the hospital?

21 A. No. I can't say. I don't know who you have in mind. They did

22 not seek shelter in the hospital. Most of them tried to break through.

23 They were making attempts to break through, for several nights in a row,

24 just before the end.

25 Q. This breakthrough, was that a form of armed combat or do you just

Page 723

1 mean getting through?

2 A. I mean just getting through. They didn't know what lay in store

3 for them but they broke out anyway.

4 Q. Therefore it seems that the blockade was not as tight as you

5 suggested to us yesterday.

6 A. It was very tight when humanitarian aid was supposed to arrive.

7 Still, many people managed to leave, many of them were captured and spent

8 months in prisons in Serbia. Many of them were killed, and are still

9 listed as missing.

10 Q. You mentioned humanitarian aid missions. Can you confirm that a

11 Medecins Sans Frontieres convoy that evacuated the wounded from the

12 Vukovar Hospital on the 18th of December, in fact -- the 18th of October,

13 in fact deviated from the route that had been agreed with the Croatian

14 National Guards corps commander in Bogdanovci?

15 A. I really can't speak about that. I wasn't part of the convoy

16 myself. I know that the convoy was derailed, as it were, and that it

17 spent the next night and day travelling over muddy fields and coming

18 across a minefield. I know nothing else because I wasn't part of the

19 convoy myself, nor did I have any other information.

20 Q. Do you know about the convoy that was supposed to arrive on the

21 13th of October, and which eventually made it to the Vukovar barracks? Do

22 you know that they couldn't get through to the hospital because the ZNG,

23 National Guards Corps, and MUP command refused to allow them to get

24 through?

25 A. I don't know why it eventually failed to get through, but I know

Page 724

1 that they were carrying a lot of medical equipment and medicine that they

2 were made to unload in the barracks and go back without a single pill and

3 a single drip. That's one thing that I know.

4 Q. Can you tell us how the list of the wounded people who arrived in

5 the hospital was made? Did you use notebooks for that purpose?

6 A. There were files, documents, kept in the following way. Any

7 admission would be registered, the wounded, the sick.

8 Q. Was that in fact a notebook that was being used to record these

9 details?

10 A. No. It was not a notebook, really. There is the register book.

11 It's actually quite big and it's usually kept on the table of the medical

12 centre of the clinic. Information was entered into this register book on

13 the state of the patient, on what sort of surgery a patient undergoes,

14 specialists were typewritten and compiled of patients wounded that were

15 then sent to the health ministry, to the police headquarters, to the

16 Defence Staff.

17 Q. In these register books, in addition to the first and last name of

18 a patient, was their status also reflected?

19 A. Not in the register book but the lists that were sent, that were

20 passed on to the ministry, always clearly stated whether somebody was a

21 member of the National Guards Corps or a civilian, a child or a police

22 officer.

23 Q. Do you know someone named Branko Stankovic? He was a patient at

24 your hospital.

25 A. No.

Page 725

1 Q. Did you, in fact, have an overview of all the patients being

2 admitted into the hospital?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. But you do not remember this particular patient or are you saying

5 that he was never admitted?

6 A. I don't remember.

7 Q. What about Toma Jakovljevic?

8 A. Yes, I know him.

9 Q. Do you know what became of him before combat operations ceased in

10 Vukovar?

11 A. When I was in prison, when I was being interrogated, I know what

12 happened when he was wounded, when he was in the hospital, and then we

13 sent him to Komerc. This is something that I heard in prison.

14 Q. That he was killed there, right?

15 A. I heard that his dead body was found. I don't know how or when he

16 was killed.

17 Q. Do you know what became of the following soldiers, Slavmir Destir

18 [phoen], and Milan Biber who were admitted into the hospital on the 20th

19 of August 1991?

20 A. No.

21 Q. You mean you don't remember or are you saying that they were not

22 admitted?

23 A. I can't remember the names of the soldiers who were killed or

24 wounded when they came across some mines on the Borovo road. I think one

25 of them was called Slaven [phoen] but I can't be certain. If these are

Page 726

1 the people you're talking about, these soldiers who were wounded at that

2 time, they were brought in a van for lack of an ambulance, of course, to

3 the barracks occupied by the JNA.

4 Q. In relation to these soldiers, there is no information indicating

5 that they were taken anywhere, in fact. They are listed as missing in the

6 military files. This is not something that you can tell us about?

7 A. I really don't know.

8 Q. Do you know what happened to Nedeljko Turekalo, admitted on the

9 30th of October 1991, to the Vukovar Hospital?

10 A. I can't remember the name. I can't remember that he was ever

11 brought in, and I don't know what happened.

12 Q. Do you remember a wounded soldier named Ivan Zivkovic who was in

13 the hospital and who joined the convoy that left Vukovar on the 18th of

14 October?

15 A. I can't remember every single name.

16 Q. You told us yesterday about the special treatment awarded soldiers

17 such as Sasa Jovic, that they were being guarded by the National Guards

18 Corps and being treated by Dr. Njavro. Did you assign Dr. Njavro to treat

19 these patients, or was he assigned by somebody else?

20 A. Dr. Njavro was the chief surgeon of the hospital. He him self

21 decided to treat them, to treat them alone.

22 Q. The National Guards Corps police had a special interest in these

23 people, didn't they?

24 A. Yes. They were worrying, they were making phone calls to inquire

25 about their situation. That sort of thing.

Page 727

1 Q. Were they in fact being guarded by a member of the National Guards

2 Corps called Damjan Samardzic, also known as The Big Bojler?

3 A. Yes. He was the person who was assigned. He was watching them

4 and that must be one of the reasons they killed him at Ovcara even before

5 they shot everybody else there.

6 Q. My apologies, the name of Damjan Samardzic was not recorded in the

7 transcript.

8 Can you tell us when it was that Mile Dedakovic, the Vukovar

9 Defence commander, left Vukovar? Do you know the time?

10 A. I can't say exactly. It was in early October. That's what I

11 know.

12 Q. When did you get to meet the new commander, Borkovic, also known

13 as Mladi Jastreb?

14 A. I met him in early September, when Mile Dedakovic appointed

15 Borkovic as coordinator for civilian protection and for the municipal

16 Crisis Staff. That was the first time I saw him. Later on, I used to see

17 him at the headquarters whenever I went there to send faxes.

18 Q. While Borkovic was commander of the Vukovar defence, did he not in

19 fact disconnect your phone lines, the hospital phone lines, connecting you

20 to the outer world?

21 A. No. He said 10 days earlier that there would be a blockade, an

22 information blockade to prevent information from reaching anyone outside.

23 My phone lines were operational all the way to the very end, which I used

24 to send out my appeals. And the same applied to Radio Vukovar.

25 Q. Did he not in fact do the same thing to the Crisis Staff? Did he

Page 728

1 not disconnect their lines, cut off their lines of communication?

2 A. I don't know what he did about the Crisis Staff, but I know that I

3 myself was sending these faxes throughout all the way until the 15th of

4 November. If you go back to the documents, you can check the dates and

5 see for how long I continued to send out these appeals by phone.

6 Q. Is it not true that for a while you were using a phone that was

7 not in the hospital in order to send your messages, a phone that was

8 located else where?

9 A. I used the hospital telephone but I used the fax machine which was

10 in the Defence Staff building and the police building. That's until the

11 time that the police building was destroyed. But I had the phone

12 throughout. The first time I was unable to talk was on the 20th, in the

13 morning, when I was brought back to the hospital from Negoslavci.

14 Q. In your statement mentioned yesterday by my learned friend, the

15 Prosecutor, the statement that you gave the security bodies while you were

16 in prison, Colonel Branko, more specifically, did you not say that

17 Borkovic had cut off your communication lines as well as those of the

18 Crisis Staff?

19 A. I can't say exactly what I stated on that occasion. I do know

20 that he said he would impose an information ban on all information leaving

21 Vukovar. That was 10 days before the fall of Vukovar. I took this to be

22 a sign of his desperation, of his helplessness, his inability to do

23 anything about it. But as I've already said I was able to physically use

24 the phone on all days until the 20th. Most of the other phone lines had

25 been demolished and you couldn't call just anyone you liked. You couldn't

Page 729

1 just call outside whenever and whoever you wanted to call.

2 Q. You spoke today about categories of persons and the markings that

3 you made pursuant to a request by the Prosecutor. I'm talking about the

4 list that was tendered today.

5 There is a category there defined as help worker at the hospital.

6 Can you please specify what that means?

7 A. Those were persons helping out at the hospital, auxiliaries

8 working as butchers, storage people, porters. They were carrying water.

9 Q. I wanted to ask you whether that category includes civilians and

10 soldiers also?

11 A. Yes. That's precisely what I was about to say. There were

12 persons who had been tasked with a security detail by the Defence Staff

13 and they were at the hospital as security. There were people from the

14 police who were in charge of collecting weapons, identifying dead bodies

15 and sending lists off to the police. That is why I defined the category

16 as I did.

17 Q. Who was it who defined this category? Who had the authority to

18 say who was and who was not a helping worker, help worker?

19 A. The defence commander sent certain people to the hospital to help

20 out and to provide security. So did the chief of police.

21 Q. Thank you. A while ago we mentioned Colonel Branko who you gave

22 your statement to. Can you describe his physical appearance, if you still

23 remember what he looks like?

24 A. It's difficult. Not very small, not very tall. Say, medium

25 build, dark hair. Balding slightly.

Page 730

1 Q. Thank you. Were you in a position to see a letter of protest

2 which reads indictment, and was in fact sent to the leaders of the

3 Republic of Croatia?

4 A. By whom?

5 Q. Where the government of the Republic of Croatia is accused of

6 having betrayed Vukovar? Perhaps you would like some water.

7 A. No, no. I'm thinking about what indictment and what letter you

8 have in mind.

9 Q. Did you see a letter of protest entitled "indictment"

10 or "accusation" sent by the Crisis Staff to the Croatian government

11 accusing them of having betrayed Vukovar and its defenders as well as its

12 people?

13 A. I believe that I actually saw parts of that letter, after I was

14 released from prison.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we please go into

17 private session for a moment? I would like to ask the witness some

18 questions in reference to witnesses who have been granted protection.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Private session.

20 [Private session]

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 731

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 [Open session]

18 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

19 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20 Q. You said that between 80 and 90 shells, bombs and missiles hit the

21 hospital daily. This means that from the 15th of August to mid-November,

22 that would come up to between 6 and 7.000 various shells, and over 40.000

23 kilograms of explosives. Don't you think that, in view of these figures,

24 and this amount, the hospital should be completely razed to the ground and

25 we would not be able to see the footage that we saw when you were examined

Page 732

1 in chief by our learned friend?

2 A. I stated about the facts that I'm sure of, and that I knew about.

3 I didn't count bombs, shells, and all other ordnance every day. I don't

4 know whether you ever visited Vukovar after the 20th of November. Had you

5 visited it, then you would have known that that was true. This is what

6 landed on the hospital, and hundred times more various ordnance landed on

7 the entire town.

8 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Bosanac.

9 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't have any further

10 questions, as we have agreement among us Defence counsel not to overlap in

11 our questions.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction. The witness said in

13 fact that she did count the ordnance that fell on the hospital, not "did

14 not count," as is recorded.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Did you hear that last correction, Mr. Vasic? It

16 wouldn't have troubled you. It only troubled those who were hearing an

17 English-language interpretation. You would have heard the answer in

18 B/C/S.

19 Thank you, Mr. Vasic.

20 I think probably this is a convenient time to break, and we can

21 continue cross-examination after the break.

22 We will resume at 20 minutes to one. That's at 12.40.

23 --- Recess taken at 12.14 p.m.

24 --- On resuming at 12.43 p.m.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore?

Page 733

1 MR. MOORE: Your Honours, just one matter I'd like the Court's

2 guidance on, please. We have just had served on us some documents by the

3 Defence that are going to be used in cross-examination. Well, of course,

4 I don't in any way criticise the Defence ability to cross-examine on

5 documents, but with the utmost respect, in fairness to the Prosecution in

6 this instance, it would have been helpful if we have at least see the

7 documents so we have a chance to read them, assimilate them and to mount

8 an objection if it's necessary. We have always given the Defence the

9 documents that we intend to rely upon; they have had opportunities to do

10 so. My understanding is that people have got to be even-handed. I

11 understand Mr. Lukic's point about surprise but nevertheless this is not

12 surprise. This is disadvantage. And that in my submission is

13 inappropriate.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore, without calling on the Defence, there is

15 a fundamental distinction; that is the Prosecution has an obligation to

16 disclose all relevant documents for and against its case to the Defence.

17 Under the more traditional view of disclosure by the Defence, there is no

18 equivalent obligation on the Defence. And that, of course, is what was at

19 the point of this issue which was debated and decided yesterday --

20 MR. MOORE: Yes.

21 JUDGE PARKER: -- that is about disclosure. It is well-recognised

22 that an unsatisfactory consequence of the traditional view is that

23 documents may be produced of which the Prosecution has no familiarity and

24 which they must, on the run, as it were, decide whether the document can

25 be the subject of valid objection and, even more problematic, whether they

Page 734

1 will be in a position to deal effectively with that document in

2 re-examination, when the time comes. Because of that unsatisfactory

3 element, as I indicated yesterday, some jurisdictions in the world are

4 gradually changing to some degree from the traditional rigid position so

5 as to enable the trial to run more smoothly and to enable counsel to be in

6 a better position to deal with issues as they arise. It's often said in

7 shorthand it's not in the interests of justice for there to be trial by

8 ambush, and in a sense, this traditional position enables trial by ambush.

9 We are well aware of all of that, but if the Defence feels it has

10 reason not to disclose a document, unless we see from a pattern of conduct

11 that that is being unnecessarily abused, we, at the moment, take the

12 position that the traditional position, which has prevailed long in this

13 Tribunal, should continue in this trial. A consequence is, unfortunately

14 for the length of the trial, that you may need to seek to delay

15 re-examination, you may have to make objections to a document which, had

16 you been more fully prepared, would you not have needed to do so. Those

17 things may happen. And it also may mean that you may have to seek a delay

18 in your re-examination. You may even need to mount a submission for leave

19 to call evidence in rebuttal. All of that prolonging may be a consequence

20 of what can occur. There is nothing knew about that in this trial. It's

21 typical of trials in this Tribunal, and under the traditional adversarial

22 system.

23 In the interests of the speed and efficiency of this trial, which

24 the accused have more interest in than anybody else because I'm sure the

25 sooner they can get this trial concluded and know exactly where they

Page 735

1 stand, the better it is for them. In the interests of that, we would very

2 much encourage Defence counsel at this stage, unless they have particular

3 reason with a particular document, to have common sense and courtesy, and

4 try and allow the Prosecution to have some advance knowledge of the

5 documents they may intend to use, both in cross-examination and when the

6 Defence comes to be presenting their respective cases. If that can be

7 done, for the most part, we can minimise unnecessary delay, unnecessary

8 adjournment, unnecessary need to recall witnesses, and so on.

9 What I have said, though, I trust it would remain clear that at

10 the moment the Chamber is prepared to recognise and respect that Defence

11 counsel may have particular reason, with a particular document, to want to

12 deal with it without notice. As long as that isn't being abused, the

13 present position of the Chamber is, as indicated yesterday, that it will

14 not interfere with that way of conducting the Defence case.

15 But as indicated yesterday, we will be keeping the position under

16 review and we may come back as the practice direction and the rules allow,

17 to requiring an earlier notice of all documents, if the position is not

18 handled sensibly and responsibly.

19 Now, I trust those impromptu comments will make clear the

20 Chamber's understanding and appreciation of the position and that we are

21 constantly watching how this is handled by counsel, and while I've been

22 speaking of Prosecution and Defence, at the moment I'm doing so in the

23 context of the Prosecution case. The reverse applies when the Defence is

24 presenting its case equally.

25 So, Mr. Moore, the answer is we are sorry and concerned that you

Page 736

1 have just got a bundle of documents. It may be a position aggravated at

2 the moment because of the earliness of the trial and the complications of

3 getting documents ordered with the change of plan with regard to the

4 electronic court system. I would hope that the Prosecution will find that

5 as the trial progresses you will have reasonable notice of the majority,

6 if not all of documents that will be used in cross-examination.

7 MR. MOORE: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Borovic?

9 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. I am

10 Mr. Borovic representing Miroslav Radic. I said this with the benefit of

11 the witness. Before I begin my cross-examination I need to give an

12 explanation to the Trial Chamber. And I would ask the president of the

13 Trial Chamber to give an instruction to the Defence.

14 We said today that we received last night the documents that were

15 promised to us by the approximate several days ago. We received it

16 yesterday with the translation and, in the future, this ought to be done

17 in accordance with instructions received from the Trial Chamber and in

18 the -- in accordance with the agreement we made yesterday.

19 In order to be sure that we all interpret the instructions in the

20 same way, I would like to know whether, on occasion, I would be able to

21 use the statements of witnesses who have not yet testified in trial. I am

22 not saying that that would be my motive, to do that, to have them admitted

23 in advance, but, since all of these documents have been disclosed to us,

24 what we would like to do is to present certain documents when examining

25 witnesses. This is needed in order for -- in order to achieve trial

Page 737

1 efficiency and to ensure fair proceedings and, since we have the witness

2 before us here today, we think it would be wise to present certain

3 documents to this witness in order to avoid any waste of time in the

4 future. Thank you.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Borovic, for the purposes of cross-examination,

6 you would not normally be able to tender, for example, the statement of a

7 witness who had not yet given evidence, as part of your case. You may

8 well, however, having read a statement that's been provided to you of

9 evidence that is expected to be given by a witness, you may well want to

10 put to a witness now giving evidence questions to see whether that witness

11 agrees with what you understand will be said in the future or disagrees

12 with it. You can do that normally without having need to show the witness

13 the actual statement. You simply say, "If a witness were to say this or

14 that, is that something you agree with?" Or "you know very well Mr.

15 Smith. Would it surprise you to learn that Mr. Smith has made a statement

16 indicating that things happened very differently from what you have said?

17 And he said this or that." I just use those as simple illustrations of

18 the way you may test with a present witness evidence that may arise at

19 some future time.

20 Separately from that, there may be times where a particular

21 document which has been disclosed to you by the Prosecution in its

22 disclosure, or which you have and you believe to be an authentic document,

23 and which appears to be contrary to evidence that's being given by a

24 present witness, you may well want or need to put that actual document to

25 the witness and say, "Now, this document appears to contradict what you're

Page 738

1 saying," or whatever it may be and get the witness's reaction to the

2 document. In that case, unless the Prosecution agrees to the document

3 then becoming evidence, you would need to have the document marked for

4 identification and at some later time, you would need yourself to prove

5 that document in evidence by some proper means. If it's a document which

6 is going to be presented by some future Prosecution witness, when that

7 future Prosecution witness is giving evidence, you in your

8 cross-examination might put that document to that witness, have the

9 witness identify and authenticate the document, and then it could be

10 transferred from merely being marked for identification to becoming an

11 exhibit.

12 Is that a sufficient indication for you of where the Chamber sees

13 the position?

14 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is more than

15 sufficient. I'm very grateful to you for your instructions. In order not

16 to waste any time in the future, I asked for this instruction to be given

17 to us now. Thank you.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Well, I'm merely outlining to you the law relevant

19 to admissibility in cross-examination, the general law, at least as I

20 understand it. I would suggest that you and all other counsel might use

21 that as a basis for your approach to questioning and the use of documents

22 in cross-examination. If you have a particular problem, of course, you

23 may always raise that with the Chamber. But you can treat that as an

24 indication of our general position. Thank you.

25 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

Page 739

1 Cross-examined by Mr. Borovic:

2 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] I shall begin with my first

3 question.

4 Q. This has to do with one of the questions already asked by my

5 colleague, Mr. Vasic. The first question was whether Mr. Rade Popovic

6 resigned as hospital manager as the witness stated or was he in fact

7 removed from that position? My question is: Does the witness know

8 Binazija Kolesar?

9 A. Yes, I do.

10 Q. Was she employed by the hospital? Was she working at the hospital

11 during these combat operations?

12 A. Yes.

13 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Binazija Kolesar, according to a statement she gave the OTP, which

15 my learned friend can no doubt confirm, on the 20th of June 1995, page 2,

16 paragraph 2, states that the manager of the Vukovar general hospital

17 before Dr. Vesna Bosanac was Dr. Rade Popovic, and he was removed from his

18 post in 1991. I move that these documents be made evidence and can the

19 usher please distribute to all participants, as well as to the witness,

20 evidence from tab 1?

21 JUDGE PARKER: They can be distributed at the moment for the

22 purposes of examining. We'll look at the question of whether they should

23 be evidence a little later.

24 MR. MOORE: We would object to that course. If it's the document

25 that my learned friend is referring to, which is dated the 18th of July,

Page 740

1 the correct procedure, in my submission, is for the doctor to look at this

2 document to ascertain whether she has seen the document before, has any

3 knowledge of the document or created the document, if she does not know of

4 the document, in my submission, she should not be then asked any questions

5 in relation to it. It may well be that this document can be adduced as

6 evidence as part of the Defence case but a witness in my submission, if

7 they say they don't know the document, or to what it relates, in my

8 submission, is inadmissible.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore, I think we are in firm agreement. You

10 misunderstood the purport I have said. It can be distributed now so that

11 it's in the hands of parties, as Mr. Borovic then puts the document to the

12 witness. I said we would look later at the question of whether or not it

13 should be admitted in evidence. And that will be determined in part on

14 the witness's reaction to the document and what she knows of it. Is that

15 clear enough, Mr. Borovic?

16 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Crystal clear, Your Honour. I

17 expected that once I've asked my questions, the Prosecutor would be

18 reacting, which they did with no delay. I'm now preparing to have the

19 document distributed to the witness and to ask her questions about the

20 document, and about Kolesar Binazija's statement which I have just quoted.

21 .

22 Q. My first question therefore: Is it true what Kolesar Binazija is

23 saying here, namely that Dr. Popovic was in fact removed from his post.

24 MR. MOORE: With the utmost respect I object to that. Kolesar's

25 statement does not say that. It says "replaced," not "removed."

Page 741

1 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, by your leave, this is

2 in fact precisely what the statement says, that the manager of the general

3 hospital before Dr. Vesna Bosanac was Dr. Rade Popovic who was removed in

4 1991. This is not the same as resigning from your post.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Borovic, we are getting tied up with the

6 document. The question you put was not related to the document at all.

7 It was simply asking the doctor whether Dr. Popovic was removed in 1991.

8 And you haven't yet had an answer to that. When you get an answer to that

9 from the witness's knowledge, you may then want to say, if you have a

10 document that is contradicting that, you may want to show the witness the

11 document and ask the witness whether she recognises the document, whether

12 she agrees with its content, if it says something different from what you

13 are putting to the witness. Is that helpful?

14 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, whatever you say is

15 helpful. Needless to say. But I closely followed the questions of my

16 colleague, Mr. Vasic. In answer to the same question, the witness

17 insisted that Dr. Popovic resigned of his own free will and this is why

18 I'm trying to ask the question in a different way by showing the witness

19 this statement which claims that he did not in fact resign but rather was

20 removed from his post. I'm trying to show the witness this document.

21 Therefore, I will try to re-ask this same question now.

22 JUDGE PARKER: You're not only re-asking the question. You're

23 wanting now to have the witness examine this document and see whether that

24 changes her mind. Is that what you're wanting to do?

25 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Of course, yes. That is precisely

Page 742

1 so.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Good. And is the document the first document in

3 the bundle that you've provided? A letter of the 1st of December 1991?

4 Or is it some other document?

5 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] I enclosed a document dated the 18th

6 of July 1991. This is a request for dismissal by the justice ministry.

7 It's in tab 1, as I have stated previously.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. I was misled by the endorsement that's

9 up at the top right-hand corner in handwriting. It's -- the date of the

10 document is the 18th of July 1991.

11 Now, I believe that Dr. Bosanac has that, a copy of that in front

12 of her.

13 Do you recognise the document at all, doctor?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Now, could you direct the doctor's attention,

16 please, Mr. Borovic, to the particular paragraph that you're concerned

17 with?

18 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Well, I'll start with the bit where

19 it says, "Subject," request for the removal of or dismissal of director,

20 Dr. Rade Popovic.

21 Q. The question is: Was this a request by the ministry prompted by

22 the doctor's proposal to resign or was there a different reason behind

23 this?

24 A. I will first answer your first question. Do you want me to answer

25 your first question about Binazija Kolesar or the other one?

Page 743

1 Q. As the Court pleases. Perhaps you should start by answering the

2 first question.

3 A. I stand by my previous statement. Dr. Rade Popovic resigned of

4 his own free will from his post as manager of the Vukovar general

5 hospital. I was present at the meeting of the workers council when he

6 handed in his resignation. Binazija Kolesar was not an employee of the

7 hospital administration at the time. What she stated was perhaps based on

8 hearsay.

9 Q. Can the witness now please answer the second question?

10 A. I don't know whether this letter, sent by the health ministry on

11 the 18th of July 1991 to the chairman of the workers' council, was sent

12 after the dismissal request -- whether Dr. Popovic himself handed in a

13 request to resign or not. This is something that I don't know. It was

14 only after I was myself appointed manager of the hospital, or, rather,

15 acting manager, that I first laid eyes on this document.

16 In as far as that is relevant to the Court, perhaps it would be a

17 good idea to call Rade Popovic such himself to testify. He still works at

18 the Vukovar Hospital. And a correction, if I may, he did not resign from

19 the hospital altogether. He just resigned from his post as manager but he

20 continued to work as a neuropsychiatrist within the hospital itself.

21 Q. Therefore, Binazija Kolesar, a witness who appeared quite decided

22 in her statement when saying that he was dismissed and had not in fact

23 resigned, is not speaking the truth?

24 A. I wasn't -- I was there when he handed in his resignation.

25 Q. So what would be your answer to my question?

Page 744

1 A. My answer is I was physically present at this meeting where he

2 handed in his resignation.

3 Q. But I asked you whether Binazija Kolesar was speaking the truth or

4 are you speaking the truth?

5 A. I know for a fact that I am the one speaking the truth.

6 Q. Thank you. In answer to a question by my learned friend Mr. Vasic

7 whether explosives were laid to Serb shops, we heard the witness say that

8 she was familiar with one particular case where the Serbs laid explosives

9 to their own shop in order to collect the insurance. My question to the

10 witness in relation to this incident is: Does the witness in fact know

11 who is -- who Delika Mirsic [phoen] is?

12 A. I do.

13 Q. Is this a person that the witness mentioned in her previous

14 statements to various military and judicial authorities?

15 A. No.

16 Q. In Sremska Mitrovica, did the witness give a statement referred to

17 by the Prosecutor today? Did she give many statements or just this one

18 that was mentioned by the Prosecutor during his examination?

19 A. During my captivity in Sremska Mitrovica and Belgrade, I gave a

20 written statement concerning a number of different situations, both before

21 and during the war in Vukovar.

22 Q. My specific question is: The statement that was referred to by

23 the Prosecutor today, given by the witness during her captivity in the

24 Sremska Mitrovica prison, her detention, she confirmed that she did indeed

25 give this statement and signed it -- sign it, she certainly not happy that

Page 745

1 she was in prison there but she certainly stated that she was there in

2 prison. I would now like to read a portion of the statement which has a

3 heading. We will have this shown if necessary and I think the Prosecutor

4 can confirm that this is the very statement, because they quoted the

5 statement today. There is --

6 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Borovic, could you show a copy of the document

7 to the witness, and the witness, I would expect, would know better than

8 anybody whether it was the statement she made.

9 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Can I have the usher's assistance,

10 please? Thank you.

11 Q. The first question is: Is this the statement that the witness

12 herself wrote?

13 A. I confirm that this is the statement that I wrote in prison in

14 Sremska Mitrovica.

15 Q. Thank you. Next question.

16 A. In future, sir, please, if you would be so kind to allow me to

17 finish my sentence.

18 Q. By all means. Please go ahead.

19 A. I just wish to say I confirm that to the extent that I can see

20 this is indeed my handwriting, and a portion of the statement that I wrote

21 while I was in detention in Sremska Mitrovica. There is one thing that I

22 wish to point out to the Trial Chamber, however. I wrote this statement

23 in detention, and under duress. I was being guided and instructed as to

24 what I was supposed to write and how.

25 Q. I have not tendered this document in my capacity as Defence

Page 746

1 counsel. I'm merely showing a statement which you have just confirmed

2 that you wrote and signed.

3 Can the witness please read out this portion that I have now

4 shown, just below the heading, "The mining and torching of cafes owned by

5 Serbs," whether this will in fact be tendered into evidence and what the

6 probative value of the document might have is something that the Court

7 will determine later on. Can you just please read the first portion of --

8 A. The first portion of the page, you mean?

9 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I wanted her to read

10 out the bit where it says "the mining and torching of Serb-owned cafes."

11 This statement runs into dozens of pages and that is one reason why I am

12 not yet tendering it.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm saying again that I wrote this

14 statement under duress, in detention. I was being guided and instructed

15 as to what and how I was supposed to write. Whether I heard that

16 Serb-owned cafes and houses were being torched in Vukovar, the heading

17 itself, too, was dictated to me by the interrogator. "The torching and

18 mining of Serb-owned cafes" ...

19 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Can the witness please continue reading the text?

21 JUDGE PARKER: Is this a document we have a copy of in this

22 bundle, Mr. Borovic?

23 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. The reason is I

24 will not be tendering this document into evidence today.

25 JUDGE PARKER: If you're wanting us to appreciate what is there

Page 747

1 written, it would be appropriate in all future cases to have copies

2 available for the Chamber, if you're putting a paper document to the

3 witness. I take it, Mr. Moore, you have a copy?

4 MR. MOORE: I have an English translation, but I don't know to

5 which part my learned friend is referring. I suspect it may be on the

6 English version 1224 on the hard copy but I suspect the problem will arise

7 again.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Carry on for the moment, Mr. Borovic.

9 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the witness --

10 JUDGE PARKER: Sorry, over your shoulder I see Mr. Lukic trying to

11 get a word in.

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to be of assistance, both

13 to the Chamber and the rest of the parties in the courtroom. My team has

14 prepared this document to be tendered in -- when we conduct our

15 cross-examination. It is ready, and even though it is not our turn yet, I

16 think that it is ready now. The entire document has about 160 pages,

17 together with an English translation, and our team has prepared that in

18 the electronic version. Perhaps that could be done now through the

19 Registrar so that we can use this document now when my colleague,

20 Mr. Borovic, is questioning the witness.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic. I think that will

22 be of assistance to Mr. Borovic and to the Chamber, so that we will be

23 able to follow what is being put. Hopefully it will be able to be turned

24 up in a moment.

25 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence teams have

Page 748

1 divided among them various documents to be tendered during their bits of

2 cross-examination or examination, and this is what the Defence team of

3 Mr. Sljivancanin has told us. The numbers are 3D 00-001 for the B/C/S

4 version and 3D 00-0126 is the English version.

5 [Trial chamber and registrar confer]

6 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you for your patience, Mr. Borovic. We have

7 overcome some parts of the technical issues. Please continue.

8 Now, what we do need to be guided to is where in the

9 English-language version we will find the passage you are referring to.

10 Are you able to tell us that?

11 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] As I said, it's somewhere in the

12 middle of the text. There is a subheading, "The cafes are being set on

13 fire and blown up." It's on page 107 of the B/C/S text.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

15 Mr. Moore, are you able to convert to the English text?

16 MR. MOORE: If the Court turns to the hard copy for a moment

17 and --

18 JUDGE PARKER: We don't have it.

19 MR. MOORE: Well, I have it on my number, ERN number, and I have a

20 copy here which is Y0041224. That is the number that I have and the

21 subtext that I think it may relate to is how a cafe owned by Serbs was

22 torched and blown up. So the number is Y0041224. I believe that may be

23 the section but I don't speak B/C/S, I'm afraid.

24 JUDGE PARKER: We will look at page 54 and 55 and see -- just

25 doing a quick lot of mathematics.

Page 749

1 MR. MOORE: Yes, that's correct.

2 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will try to be of

3 assistance. Page 55 of the English version, number 3D 00-0180. The text

4 is -- the relevant portion is somewhere in the middle.

5 [Trial chamber confers]

6 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Borovic.

7 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

8 In the interests of justice, I have to be patient and persistent.

9 Thank you.

10 Q. Could the witness please read the text.

11 A. Your Honours, could this be shown on my monitor, please? I would

12 like to see what you are seeing on your monitors because on my monitor I

13 only have the first page of the said statement. I want to be sure that

14 you can follow and check what I'm reading. Or do you want me to reply

15 regardless?

16 JUDGE PARKER: What was the page number in the B/C/S version,

17 Mr. Borovic?

18 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] 107. And this is precisely the page

19 we gave to the witness.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I have in front of me is page

21 9, 109. I ask that the English translation of this page be shown on the

22 monitor so that I can compare the two to make sure that that is precisely

23 the page.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Do you read a heading, "How a cafe owned by Serbs

25 was torched and blown up" on the page in front of you?

Page 750

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can see that.

2 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I can be of

3 assistance here. I have another copy of the B/C/S version. There is a

4 single subheading there. You have the same page on your screens. And

5 could this please be shown to the witness?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can see it on my screen now.

7 Thank you very much.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

9 Now, you're asking the witness to read this to herself before you

10 ask questions or do you want her to read it aloud?

11 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask her to read it

12 out loud because previously she stated, loud and clear, she didn't know

13 Darko Markobasic, and from this portion here you will see how things

14 actually lie. This is something written in the handwriting of the

15 witness.

16 JUDGE PARKER: [Microphone not activated]

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Naturally, but prior to this, I

18 would like to state that I did not reply to the question put by Defence

19 about Marko -- Darko Markobasic and I didn't say that I didn't know him.

20 I said that I knew him. Whereas what I actually said was, when asked by

21 you, that I did not say so in any statements I have given.

22 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Bosanac. Now, could you please read the text?

24 A. "I, as well as many other citizens, were unpleasantly surprised

25 upon learning that every four or five days a Serbian restaurant is blown

Page 751

1 up. The Borba kiosk in Vukovar and Borovo Naselje was blown up as well.

2 Later on, it was rumoured that this had been done by former criminals,

3 such as Darko Markobasic and the like. At the time, they were members of

4 the Tomislav Merced Guards and that of Plisa Marin [phoen]. I remember

5 that the first one to be blown up was the Sareka [phoen] kebab shop owned

6 by Djordje Betic [phoen] near the market. I was especially shocked by

7 that because that was the first terrorist attack. I knew the owner

8 personally, and I frequently went to that place with my sons. Later on,

9 the Borba kiosk at the market was blown up. The next one was the Brdo

10 cafe near the log market." Now I have read it.

11 Q. Thank you, Witness. Do you still stand by your statement that you

12 have never previously in any of your other statements mentioned Darko

13 Markobasic? Or rather Davor Markobasic?

14 A. Your Honours, I wrote this down in prison, 14 years ago. I

15 completely forget that I ever mentioned this. What actually happened here

16 is that I heard this. I never personally witnessed anything like this.

17 Q. Thank you. Now we heard from the witness that she knows who

18 Tomislav Mercep is. My question is as follows: In June of 1991, did

19 Mercep, Tomislav limit the freedom of movement of the citizens of Vukovar

20 and were there any permits issued and signed by him?

21 A. I heard that he had some permits signed by him, or rather the

22 staff of the All People's Defence secretariat.

23 Q. Thank you. We heard that due to the amount of work at the

24 hospital, the witness, when asked by my learned friend, Mr. Vasic,

25 answered something, and I will now put a question related to that.

Page 752

1 How is it that all of those faxed calls for help were not sent to

2 Vinkovci or to the National Defence Staff through various help workers,

3 drivers, and so on, or through the policemen securing the hospital? And

4 why did she instead personally left the hospital daily in October and

5 November in order to send a fax?

6 A. I wrote these faxes personally. I believed them to be important.

7 And I wanted to send them personally. Everybody had their tasks in the

8 hospital. They were all busy. Every time one left the hospital, one

9 exposed oneself to a great risk, and only if you were lucky and God

10 protected you, you had a chance of staying alive. I did not want to

11 expose anyone to the risk and send them out to send the fax. So that's

12 why I did that myself.

13 Q. My next question is as follows: Did she have direct telephone

14 line to the police, the Defence Staff in Vukovar, or that in Vinkovci?

15 A. I had a direct telephone line.

16 Q. Thank you. At a certain point in time, did the Serb patients stop

17 coming to the hospital?

18 A. What do you mean by "Serb patients"?

19 Q. Patients of Serbian ethnicity?

20 A. People of all ethnicities kept coming, Croats, Serbs, and

21 everybody else.

22 Q. Does that mean that the answer is that the Serb patients didn't

23 stop coming to the hospital?

24 A. The only patients who did not come to the hospital were those who

25 were outside of the siege. Within the city of Vukovar and Borovo Naselje,

Page 753

1 patients of all ethnicities continuously came to the hospital.

2 Q. The next question I would like to show the witness Binazija

3 Kolesar's statement. The OTP is, of course, in possession of this

4 statement. 19th and 20th of June 1995, page 3, paragraph 1. The

5 statement reads, "After the killing of the Croatian police officers in

6 Borovo in 1991, Serb doctors and nurses started leaving their jobs at the

7 hospital, saying that they were afraid of the return of the Ustashas who

8 would then slit their throats. Many Serb patients likewise stopped going

9 to the hospital. The overall number of patients decreased."

10 Just another sentence: "From the Borovo Selo clash onwards, the

11 hospital also treated wounded Croatian police officers but they were being

12 guarded by armed police officers inside the hospital. It was then that

13 the Serb civilian patients stopped going there because of the concern

14 caused them by the presence of Croatian policemen at the hospital."

15 My question for the witness is: What Binazija Kolesar is stating,

16 is it true or not?

17 A. According to my knowledge, my information, patients from all

18 ethnic backgrounds were coming to the hospital throughout. As for the

19 Serb medical staff leaving, I would just like to say that some, and I

20 emphasise "some" of the doctors and nurses did indeed stop coming to work.

21 As for the other facts, you can't ask me that's true or not. According to

22 the information I have, it is certainly not true.

23 Q. Thank you. We mentioned Mile Dedakovic, also known as Jastreb

24 today. My question is, where was his headquarters in Vukovar? Does the

25 witness know that?

Page 754

1 A. Yes, I do.

2 Q. Where?

3 A. It was in the garden of a building that was being used as the All

4 People's Defence secretariat.

5 Q. Was this a military facility?

6 A. To me, a barracks would be a military facility. This was just an

7 every day, unmarked building that was being used as the All People's

8 Defence secretariat. The headquarters of the staff itself was

9 underground.

10 Q. In that same building?

11 A. Sorry?

12 Q. The staff.

13 A. In the garden of that building.

14 Q. Thank you. What about the Croatian police? Where did they have

15 their own headquarters at the time?

16 A. At the police building, which was near the Court building.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Borovic, we've reached the time, I'm afraid.

18 We just adjourn now and resume tomorrow at nine in the morning, if I could

19 ask you to return then, doctor. Thank you.

20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.44 p.m.,

21 to be reconvened on Friday, the 28th day of October,

22 2005, at 9.00 a.m.