1 Monday, 7 November 2005
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.26 p.m.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon. I would apologise for everybody
7 that we were late in starting because the computer system is giving
8 difficulties. As you may be aware, it is still not fully functioning and
9 we hope we can manage to continue while the technical people are
10 attempting to correct the problem.
11 May I remind you of the affirmation you made at the beginning of
12 your evidence, which still applies.
13 WITNESS: WITNESS P-013 [Resumed]
14 [Witness answered through interpreter]
15 JUDGE PARKER: Mrs. Tuma?
16 MS. TUMA: Thank you, Your Honour. Good afternoon everybody and
17 we will continue with the testimony of the witness, and this witness is a
18 protective-measures witness, so to say. I would like when we start to be
19 in private session, please.
20 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
21 MS. TUMA: Thank you.
22 [Private session]
12 [Open session]
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the morning of the 20th, between
14 6.00 and 7.00, an order came through for all of us who were in the
15 hospital explicitly for those slightly wounded and all the others to leave
16 the hospital building. There was panic among the people. We started
17 leaving the building. At the exit, there were a lot of soldiers and
18 Major Sljivancanin was among them. At the door, there was a soldier whose
19 name was Nikola Dukic --
20 MS. TUMA: [Microphone not activated]
21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Ms. Tuma, please.
22 MS. TUMA: Sorry. Thank you.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Why is that necessary for private session,
24 Mrs. Tuma?
25 MS. TUMA: In order, while she is defining, mentioning names, it
1 could be in the long run to be --
2 JUDGE PARKER: It depends whose name it is and is there a problem
3 with this soldier?
4 MS. TUMA: Could be.
5 JUDGE PARKER: The soldier is not a protected witness.
6 MS. TUMA: No.
7 JUDGE PARKER: I would not think there is justification for
8 private session.
9 MS. TUMA: Okay. Thank you.
10 Q. Please continue.
11 A. This soldier stood at the exit separating men from women. Men
12 were leaving on one side, that was to the left as you enter the hospital,
13 and the women went to the right. At this same exit, I did not know where
14 to go. I just stopped right there. I was standing a few feet behind
15 Major Sljivancanin. My husband was led away. There were buses waiting
16 for them already. He got on to one of those buses and that was -- that
17 was the last I saw of him.
18 Q. Thank you. In the morning, you were mentioning at 6.00 to 7.00,
19 where were you in the morning when this order came where you were told to
20 leave the hospital?
21 A. There were perhaps about a dozen of us sleeping in a room. We
22 were lying on the ground. There were mattresses that we were using and we
23 slept there. Then the order came so we packed in a rush, not that we had
24 many things to pack anyway, a few personal belongings, and then we left
25 the hospital, or, rather, the hospital building. We passed through a long
1 corridor. It was some sort of a basement, not quite underground but some
2 sort of a basement.
3 Q. Thank you. You said here that the order came that you should
4 pack. In what way? Who gave that order to you and the rest of the people
5 who were in that room on the mattresses?
6 A. Soldiers were out in the corridor and they were telling people to
7 get out.
8 Q. What kind of soldiers?
9 A. Soldiers in JNA uniforms.
10 Q. Were there anyone you could recognise amongst those soldiers?
11 A. Not in the hospital itself, but outside the hospital.
12 Q. Now we are just talking about in the morning when the order came,
13 so -- and then you mentioned that you saw a soldier came, soldiers came.
14 And my question is if you could recognise any of those soldiers who gave
15 the orders that you should pack.
16 A. As for those who entered the building to tell us that we should
17 get out, I did not recognise any of those, no.
18 Q. Do you know from whom the order came from? Who ordered to pack?
19 A. It was quite clear that Major Sljivancanin was in charge and
20 giving orders. He was giving all the orders and they were obeying him.
21 Q. And in terms of this specific order that you should pack and leave
22 the hospital, was he the one who gave that order? Were you in that
24 A. That was my impression, yes. I didn't hear him from him directly,
25 but who else could have given that order if it hadn't been him who was
1 standing outside the hospital? He was the one that people went to for
2 instructions because he was the one who was there in charge.
3 Q. Did you see him around in the morning when this specific event
4 took place, when you were told to pack and to leave the hospital? Just in
5 the beginning of the morning, just on that phase of the day, so to say.
6 A. At the very exit of the building, there was Major Sljivancanin.
7 He was talking to a man in white, most probably someone from one of the
8 international missions. I don't speak English but I speak Croatian. That
9 man demanded that a list be made with all the people who were being taken
10 away and boarded on to buses. However, this gentleman did not authorise
11 that and I quote, I think this is exactly what he told him. He
12 said, "Sir, listen, this country belongs to me and I am the one giving
13 orders here. When I come to your country I will submit myself to whatever
14 you say." And he refused to allow for those people to be listed. That is
15 why those people were taken away without previously being recorded on
16 lists. They were taken to those buses, including my husband who is still
18 Q. Did you hear this?
19 A. Yes. I heard it with my own ears. I was standing three feet
20 perhaps behind Major Sljivancanin, behind his back.
21 Q. At this particular event, did Sljivancanin introduce him in a
22 specific way? Did you hear anything about that, to the man in white?
23 A. Yes. He said his name was Major Sljivancanin. He did say that.
24 I wouldn't have known that it was him if I hadn't heard it from him that
25 very morning.
1 Q. Did he in that sense say anything about his own position above
2 that he was a major and positioned in the hospital itself?
3 A. Well, this man who wanted to have a list drawn up with all the
4 wounded, he was adamant about this, and then he told him what he told him.
5 He introduced himself saying he was Major Sljivancanin, that this was his
6 country, and that he was in charge here and, well, nothing; they just
7 talked on. The other man was speaking in English and I didn't understand
8 what he was saying but I'm telling you what I heard.
9 Q. Thank you. I just quote you here. You said that he was -- that
10 he told that he was in charge here. What is your impression about what he
11 was meaning by that?
12 A. My impression was that he was the one determining what would
13 happen to those people who were being taken away. Determining what would
14 become of us who were still there. The entire hospital, all the people
15 inside the hospital. He was the one determining what would happen to
16 everyone. Nobody was free to leave or go wherever they wanted. It all
17 had to be done the way that he had ordered.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic?
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I was in no position to interrupt.
20 This whole line of questioning, there are two things that I believe to
21 constitute drawbacks. A, the questions are leading. B, the witness is
22 asked to speculate and to assume what the role of Mr. Sljivancanin might
23 have been. This calls for speculation and this speculation is obtained by
24 a series of extremely leading questions. There were several such
25 questions. For example, on page 5, line 25, and several other questions.
1 I hoped that this would soon stop but now I see that the whole set of
2 questions is very leading and I don't think questions of this sort should
3 be asked on examination-in-chief.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Your reference to line 25, Mr. Lukic, I don't see
5 that to be a leading question. There had been, though, some other
6 questions that were, and I think the proposition basically put by
7 Mr. Lukic, Mrs. Tuma, is sound. You can get from this witness what she
8 saw, what she heard, what people were doing. But then trying to have her
9 add to that by saying what her impression was of what somebody meant or so
10 forth is just pushing too far. The facts will speak for themselves as to
11 what she saw and what she heard. So if you would keep it down to her
12 observations, sight and sound, the events that were actually occurring, I
13 think we'll avoid the problems that Mr. Lukic has drawn attention to.
14 Thank you.
15 MS. TUMA: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Q. Okay. In that -- in the hospital, during that morning, and now we
17 are -- I'm talking about Wednesday, the 29th [sic] of November 1991, did
18 you see in the morning in the hospital or at any time --
19 JUDGE PARKER: Did you mean 20th of November?
20 MS. TUMA: Yeah.
21 JUDGE PARKER: It's recorded as 29 in the transcript.
22 MS. TUMA: I said 20th.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Just so it's clear to the witness.
24 MS. TUMA: The 20th of November.
25 JUDGE PARKER: November the 20th. Thank you.
1 MS. TUMA:
2 Q. Did you see any kind of selection of people inside the hospital?
3 A. On the morning of the 20th, as I was passing down that corridor,
4 there was a doctor, I'm not quite sure which one it was but I believe it
5 was Dr. Stanojevic. He was there with a high military official whose rank
6 I didn't know because I don't know about these things. He spoke to him,
7 however, saying, "Comrade Mrksic." They were walking together down that
8 corridor, and this doctor who, by the way, hails from Vukovar and he knew
9 most of the patients, was saying this one is ours and this one isn't.
10 This is one of us, and this one isn't, meaning this one is a Serb and the
11 one who wasn't one of theirs was a Croat. This is what I heard when I was
12 walking down that corridor.
13 Q. Thank you. When you heard this, what was your distance to this --
14 the people that were walking, when you overheard they said.
15 A. They were a few feet away but there were wounded lying on either
16 side of the corridor in beds. Those were seriously wounded persons who
17 couldn't just get up and leave the hospital building.
18 Q. Did you hear clearly what was saying -- what was said?
19 A. I heard it loud and clear when he spoke to him saying, "Comrade
21 Q. What happened directly after that?
22 A. After that, we were standing outside and this one soldier - I
23 can't say which one because I didn't know them - said to separate the
24 Serbs from the Croats. There was a separation of Serbs and Croats because
25 both Serbs and Croats were in the hospital as well as a number of other
2 Q. Were you at this point of time standing outside the hospital?
3 A. I was still standing where I was, once I had got out. We had to
4 wait there for further orders that would tell us where to go.
5 Q. What happened at the entrance of the hospital?
6 A. As the wounded were leaving the building, I was there and a man in
7 uniform came up and talked to a lady. She asked what would become of them
8 and he said, "They will all be killed. This is something that's been
10 Q. Who were they then talking about?
11 A. They were talking about the people who had been taken aside and
12 taken to the buses early in the morning.
13 Q. When you are referring to the people, can you more -- be more
14 specific about that? Who that group, who they comprised of?
15 A. Those who were slightly wounded, and the staff, medical staff,
16 help workers, all those who were able to move. Those who were in the
17 hospital when they were being separated, when men were being taken to one
18 side and women to the other. That's when they went to the buses.
19 Q. You mentioned here that men were taken to one side and the others
20 to -- and women to the other. At that -- did you see that?
21 A. Yes. I saw that. I experienced that. I had been separated from
22 my husband. We left the hospital building together and then we were
24 Q. At the time when you were separated from your husband, were there
25 any kind of soldier present at that time?
1 A. It was a soldier who separated us, so, yes, there were soldiers
3 Q. What kind of soldier or soldiers?
4 A. They were wearing JNA uniforms or some other sort of uniform but I
5 don't think so because they were there with the JNA. So I don't know.
6 They were wearing a uniform, military uniform.
7 Q. Were there any kind of directions giving at -- at this event by
8 any soldier?
9 A. No. There was that one standing at the door, sending men to one
10 side and women to the other, separating them.
11 Q. Were there anyone overseeing what happened at this specific
13 A. Major Sljivancanin was standing there, too.
14 Q. Did you see that?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You said that he was standing there. Did he do anything? Did he
17 say anything?
18 A. I wasn't really listening because he was talking to his soldiers.
19 I was standing in a group of people where the women were and we were
20 waiting to see what would happen.
21 Q. What is your impression of -- in how he was in the way he was
23 MR. LUKIC: Objection.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Lukic?
25 MR. LUKIC: Again, same question. Calls for speculation.
1 JUDGE PARKER: I was waiting to hear how the question was
2 understood by the witness. It may be satisfactory. It may go over the
3 edge. So I'm alert to your problem, Mr. Lukic.
4 MS. TUMA:
5 Q. Can you please answer the question?
6 A. Can you please repeat?
7 Q. Excuse me, I will repeat exactly what I said through reading the
8 transcript. What is your impression of -- in how he was in the way he was
10 A. My impression, there was no impression. There was just a lot of
11 fear. He was acting in a soldierly kind of way. He was being strict, but
12 that was the approach that he took probably because he was a professional
13 soldier. I can only tell you that I was certainly very scared.
14 Q. Why were you scared?
15 A. Well, we had been in the basement for a full three months. We
16 were being shelled, day in, day out, and then they started separating us,
17 men to one side and women to the other. What else could I have felt but
18 fear? I felt fear.
19 Q. Fear of what?
20 A. Fear that we would perhaps all be killed.
21 Q. What happened exactly after that?
22 A. As I was still standing there, they carried another wounded person
23 out on a stretcher, the soldiers did, they dropped him from the stretcher
24 and started kicking him. I don't know what happened to that wounded
25 person later. This was perhaps ten metres away from where I was standing
1 myself. Later on, we were ordered to leave the hospital courtyard. Again
2 there were buses waiting there that we, the elderly, women and children,
3 were supposed to board.
4 Q. Thank you. You said here that they carried a wounded -- another
5 wounded person out on stretchers. Who were -- who were they?
6 A. I personally knew that wounded person who was there. He had a
7 plaster cast on all the way up to his hip. His name was Martin Dosen. I
8 knew the man and I saw them drop him off the stretcher and kick him, but
9 that was all I saw.
10 Q. Did you see later on or exactly after that what happened with this
11 specific person, Dosen?
12 A. No. I didn't. I left the hospital perimeter and then we were
13 standing by the road side for a long time waiting for those buses to take
14 us somewhere.
15 Q. Did you see who kicked him, Dosen?
16 A. The soldiers kicked him, soldiers in uniform. I'm not sure which
17 uniform, though.
18 Q. Were there more than one who kicked him?
19 A. There were four of them carrying the stretcher. I only saw what
20 I've just told you. There were four of them carrying the stretcher and
21 then they chucked him from the stretcher and started kicking him on the
23 Q. Where did this take -- where did it happened?
24 A. This happened near the hospital exit, between the hospital exit
25 and the buses waiting midway down the road. I don't think the distance is
1 greater than 20 metres. 20 metres, tops. From the hospital exit to where
2 the buses were, midway down that path or road.
3 Q. Did you see any other beating?
4 A. I didn't.
5 Q. Did you see where the men went?
6 A. I didn't see that either because I was already on the other side
7 of the hospital, or, rather, I was already in another street.
8 Q. Can you describe what happened to you? You were standing you said
9 here on the other street. What happened there?
10 A. As we stood there, a lot of soldiers passed by. They walked in
11 groups, carrying a horrible-looking flag with skulls. They also sang a
12 song that went something, "Slobodan get some salad. There will be meat
13 because we will be slaughtering Croats."
14 As for us, we stood in a line waiting to board the buses which
15 were supposed to take us somewhere but at that time we still didn't know
17 Q. When you were standing there waiting, did you observe anything
18 that you -- that could be mentioned?
19 A. Just a lot of soldiers. Then finally, the buses arrived at about
20 11.00 or 11.30, I don't know, I'm not sure, and then we boarded the buses
21 and they drove us away. Those were green military buses, not civilian
22 buses, the buses belonging to the army, JNA. Then they drove us through
23 the town. There were bodies all strewn around through the town, bodies of
24 dead people, and then we went through Ralik and some villages and arrived
25 in Sremska Mitrovica that same day.
1 Q. Thank you. Before you were entering the buses, did you see any
2 other civilians around you except for that group that yourself were part
4 A. Yes. There were very many civilians, women, children, the
5 elderly, there were a lot of us. There were several buses there that took
6 us away.
7 Q. Did you see other people than the people that were later on taken
8 away in the buses when you were standing outside waiting for the buses?
9 A. Well, I saw the soldiers singing the songs. They stood in groups.
10 They arrived in groups carrying flags with them and singing.
11 Q. Thank you. Did you see any people that were injured?
12 A. No. I don't think there were any such people in our bus, not in
13 the bus where I was. I don't think that there were any wounded persons
15 Q. Now, I'm not asking about the people in the bus. I'm asking about
16 when you were standing outside waiting to entering the buses, when you
17 were waiting for the buses, if you were at that point see any injured
19 A. There were wounded people there. The ones who had been separated,
20 who used to be in the hospital and then were separated from us. There
21 were a lot of wounded people there, slightly wounded persons.
22 Q. Were there other people that were wounded or injured than the ones
23 you have already said?
24 A. I don't think so. I don't think I saw any.
25 MS. TUMA: Your Honour, with the permit answer of the court, if
1 that is allowed, to show the witness her statement given to the OTP
2 investigator on the 18th July, 1992, in order to ask her or remind her
3 what she then said to the investigator when she was questioned at that
4 time concerning this specific question. Thank you.
5 JUDGE PARKER: You propose to see that the witness see the
6 statement to see whether it refreshes her memory, is that it?
7 MS. TUMA: Correct, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Is there any objection -- is there any
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have an objection, Your Honours.
11 First of all, I think that this must be a 1995 statement and I believe
12 that this must be just a typo. But I also have an objection to this type
13 of approach in refreshing the witness's memory. You can see that the OTP
14 has already talked to this witness and they have shown the statement to
15 the witness and this was done as recently as several days ago. I don't
16 think that this is an appropriate way to conduct chief examination.
17 Questions put in chief examination should be such so that the witness is
18 able to answer questions on their own, without any further guidance. This
19 witness was shown the statement several days ago and now her memory needs
20 to be refreshed once again. We received corrections which means that they
21 talked to this witness as recently as several days ago, so this statement
22 must have been shown to the witness in order to make corrections.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
24 The jurisprudence of this Tribunal, in keeping with the
25 jurisprudence of many nations that have an adversarial system, does allow
1 in these circumstances that the witness may refresh her memory from a
2 statement previously made. I would make it clear that the position varies
3 between some adversarial countries. In my own country, this would not be
4 allowed. But it is the position in many and it is the established
5 jurisprudence of this Tribunal. The Chamber, though, well knows at what
6 point the witness was asked to refresh her memory and, of course, that
7 will be taken into account in assessing what weight we might ultimately
8 attach to evidence that comes only because it's been refreshed.
9 The witness may see the statement, Mrs. Tuma.
10 MS. TUMA: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Could you tell us, please, which statement it is?
12 MS. TUMA: Absolutely, Your Honour. It is the statement taken on
13 the 18th July, 1995, by the investigator who was representing the Office
14 of the Prosecutor, Jose Limmayog Jr. And that statement is also signed by
15 the current witness. And also, the part that I would like specifically to
16 show the witness is on page 4 in the English version and also the same
17 page, number 4, in the B/C/S version.
18 JUDGE PARKER: The witness should be directed to the page and the
19 particular part, asked to read it, and then, with the statement put aside,
20 you may ask her whether she remembers certain matters, okay?
21 MS. TUMA: Thank you, Your Honour. Just for the information of
22 the Court, that I don't know the B/C/S language. I can -- yeah. It
23 should be this specific part in the B/C/S but I'm not 100 per cent sure
24 while my language skills, not yet at least, entails also B/C/S language.
25 But I can -- I can show her the part that I most certainly think is the
1 right one.
2 JUDGE PARKER: How will Defence counsel no what part it is that
3 you are referring the witness to? Have you got a copy that can be passed
4 over in the B/C/S that marks the passage?
5 MS. TUMA: Yes. I've got it here. I will now show the usher
6 which part I'm meaning. Starting here -- it's starting there and it's
7 ending -- it's just two sentences.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Has that been shown to Defence counsel?
9 MS. TUMA: Can I do that, please?
10 JUDGE PARKER: The usher will pass it over.
11 MS. TUMA: Okay.
12 JUDGE PARKER: The witness has now seen the passage? And your
13 question, Mrs. Tuma? Non-leading.
14 MS. TUMA: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Q. Did you see -- I'm asking the witness, did you see any other
16 injured persons when you were standing outside the hospital?
17 A. Yes. I got mixed up. I mixed up those days to some extent. But
18 at any rate, when they took away this slightly wounded persons, there were
19 hospital workers among them, drivers, help workers, and so on. To -- I
20 don't know where they took them. Most likely to Velepromet, but I don't
21 know that for a fact. Then they asked Major Sljivancanin to bring back
22 the people who had hospital IDs on their pockets, proving that these
23 people were hospital staff, that they worked at the hospital. Once those
24 people were brought back, we were still there and those people were
25 brought back with bloody faces and they were beaten in a place that they
1 had been taken to. So these are the people that I saw.
2 Q. Do you happen to know the gender of those people?
3 A. Those were mostly men.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 A. Two of them were never found, Jozo Adzaga and Jozo Zeljko. They
6 were in the group that was returned but it seems that after that, they
7 were taken some place again and now they are missing.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 MS. TUMA: No more questions, please. I'm done with the
10 examination-in-chief. Thank you.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mrs. Tuma.
12 Mr. Vasic?
13 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Vasic will now have some questions for you.
15 Cross-examined by Mr. Vasic:
16 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I need a moment
17 to get ready. I need to take the lectern because I wasn't expecting the
18 examination in chief to be concluded so soon.
19 Q. Good afternoon, Madam. Let me introduce myself. I'm
20 attorney-at-law Miroslav Vasic. In view of the fact that you're a
21 protected witness I would kindly ask you to make a pause before answering
22 my questions so that the interpreters can interpret what you say and what
23 I say and so that your voice would not be heard through my microphone;
24 therefore, I need enough time to switch off my microphone. In addition, I
25 would like to ask you to answer my questions with a yes or a no, unless my
1 question is such that it requires a longer answer.
2 In view of everything you have told us here in the previous day
3 and a half, it seems that you are quite bitter about all of the Serb
4 nationals who took part in the events and that you refer to them as
6 A. No. I didn't refer to them as Chetniks. I referred to them as
7 members of the army. As for me being bitter, no. I'm not. Rather, I am
8 very sad and unhappy about it.
9 Q. Do you have any bitter feelings towards the JNA? Do you believe
10 them to be responsible for the tragedy that you experienced?
11 A. I'm not a politician and I know nothing about that. I'm a simple
12 civilian who lived in the city of Vukovar. I experienced these events. I
13 lost my whole family and have nobody anymore.
14 Q. Do you thus believe that no sentence would be sufficient to
15 ameliorate the pain that you have suffered?
16 A. What have I have with these sentences? I can't explain to you how
17 I feel. What are those sentences to me?
18 Q. As we have already heard, in June of 1995, you gave a statement to
19 the OTP representatives, isn't that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You waited for 14 years since the events in Vukovar to be invited
22 to come here and to tell everyone what has been bothering you all these
23 years; is that right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. After you gave your statement in July of 1995, you expected to be
1 invited to come to testify in the course of 1998, when a trial was held
2 here against the then accused Slavko Dokmanovic, who was accused precisely
3 for the events that we are discussing here. However, you were not invited
4 to come here and testify.
5 A. No, I wasn't. In addition to that, I wasn't present in the areas
6 where those events took place and where Slavko Dokmanovic was.
7 Q. Were you then disappointed that the Prosecution failed to invite
8 you to come and testify about the events you described in your statement,
9 given in July of 1995, thus never giving you a chance to come to the Court
10 and describe your experiences?
11 A. I expected them to invite me to come here but I wasn't surprised
12 at not being invited at the time.
13 Q. Therefore, did you come here now wishing to ensure, through your
14 testimony, that these accused would receive the longest possible
16 A. Well, for the time being, nothing has been proven yet. Once it's
17 proven, the Court will decide. As for my wishes, I have none.
18 Q. Now, after 14 years, you have an opportunity to testify before the
19 Trial Chamber. Do you believe that you have a right to represent certain
20 details or events in the light that you wish to attribute to them even
21 though you yourself didn't see or hear these details or events?
22 A. You're not right. I would never describe something of the sort,
23 even though it's been 14 years, 1991 is as fresh in my mind as it was back
24 then. It will remain that way until I die. When I close my eyes, I can
25 see and hear everything that happened back then.
1 Q. Did you see it or hear it even better in 1995 when you gave your
2 statement to the OTP?
3 A. Back then, I gave the same statement. I only can describe one
4 version. There is only one statement I can give, and that is the one
5 describing what I experienced and saw.
6 Q. Prior to your testimony, Defence received from the OTP corrections
7 to your 1995 statement. Were these corrections written on the basis of
8 what you discussed with them in the past 10 days?
9 A. It's been very many years. It's been a lot of years. And if
10 perhaps one word was amiss, that doesn't mean that you can put these
11 questions to me now. Everything I stated is true, and 1991 was 14 years
12 ago, 1995 was ten years ago, and it is possible that a word can be wrong
13 here or there. But the essence of what I said is always the same, both
14 what I said in 1995 and what I said now.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Mrs. Tuma?
16 MS. TUMA: Yes, thank you, Your Honour. I just go back in the
17 transcript here, what the Defence is saying that, it's line 6 or so, yeah,
18 "corrections written on the basis of what you discussed with them in the
19 past 10 days." That could be interpreted as that OTP discussed with the
20 witness during 10 days, and I would like to add that the addendum that has
21 also been disclosed to the Defence was done on the 31st of October, 2005.
22 It was one day and not 10 days.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mrs. Tuma.
24 MS. TUMA: Thank you.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Carry on, Mr. Vasic.
1 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.
2 Defence doesn't have a problem with that. We didn't really claim that the
3 OTP spent 10 days talking to the witness but that, rather, it was done
4 within the past 10 days. At any rate, thank you, my learned friend from
5 the Prosecution.
6 Q. Madam, can you please tell us whether your recollections were
7 fresher in 1995 when you gave your statement then or today?
8 A. They are equally fresh when it comes to the 1991 events.
9 Q. What about when you first gave your statement to the OTP back in
10 1995? Did you not state that you would answer truthfully any questions
11 and to the best of your knowledge and recollection?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Once you'd given your statement, once the statement had been typed
14 up, was the statement read back to you in the Croatian language and did
15 you not sign the statement to confirm everything that is in it? Did you
16 not thereby confirm that the statement reflected your recollection of how
17 things happened?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. When making corrections to your statement on the 31st of October,
20 2005, did you perhaps want to help the OTP through these corrections so
21 that they may be better able to present the Prosecution case?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Before you made these corrections, did perhaps one of my learned
24 friends from the OTP explain that some of the things you stated in your
25 first statement were not quite consistent with some parts of the
2 A. I may have forgotten something myself. It's been a long time,
3 after all.
4 Q. My apologies, but I asked whether my learned friends from the OTP
5 perhaps explained to you during your briefing session that some of the
6 things you had stated in your previous statement were not perhaps
7 consistent with some allegations made in the indictment.
8 A. I don't understand the question.
9 Q. As you were making corrections to your 1995 statement, did my
10 learned friends from the OTP show you any other statements by other
11 witnesses who speak differently of the same things that you are speaking
13 A. No.
14 Q. Is it your submission, Madam, that you now remember things more
15 clearly now, 14 years after, than you did in 1995, three and a half years
16 after the facts, when you gave your first statement?
17 A. I'm not saying anything like that. There may be minor
18 inconsistencies, a word that slipped through the cracks, something like
19 that, but basically I keep stating the same thing and all I am saying
20 something based on what I saw and heard at the time.
21 Q. You took an oath here before this Honourable Trial Chamber. I
22 hope that you are aware of your duty to tell the truth as well as the
23 consequences should you fail to tell the truth.
24 A. I am telling the truth.
25 Q. Thank you very much.
1 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm not sure if this
2 might be a convenient time to break or perhaps I should press on now.
3 JUDGE PARKER: Because of the late start, we thought to go to
4 about ten minutes to 4.00, but if it would be of significant advantage to
5 you, we could break now.
6 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] No, thank you, Your Honour. I just
7 thought that I should like to be in keeping with the well-established
8 courtroom schedule. As far as I'm concerned, I'm prepared to continue.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Another 15 minutes or so, Mr. Vasic.
10 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 Q. During your stay in The Hague, which witnesses were you were touch
13 A. None.
14 Q. Did you meet any of the witnesses at the hotel?
15 A. I'm staying at a different hotel.
16 Q. But at least you do know that these other witnesses are staying in
17 a different hotel.
18 A. Yes. I know that the witnesses who came before me were in a
19 different hotel. I'm in a different hotel myself. I'm not here on my
20 own. I'm being accompanied by someone and so on and so forth.
21 Q. Before your arrival in The Hague, did you meet Dr. Bosanac in
23 A. No. I didn't meet Dr. Bosanac. She was already in The Hague when
24 I was arriving in Zagreb.
25 Q. Prior to your arrival in this courtroom, did you perhaps have an
1 opportunity to follow the testimonies of other witnesses who have appeared
2 in this case?
3 A. No. I don't watch television much these days, and I don't really
4 follow that particular subject matter. It causes me so much disquiet that
5 I have trouble sleeping.
6 Q. What about your family? Were any of your family members also
7 members of the HDZ?
8 A. No. I couldn't really tell you about one of my sons. I can't be
9 sure. I know that I myself wasn't. I couldn't say positively about my
10 son but I never saw a membership card or anything. However, I can't fully
11 commit myself.
12 Q. Do you know who won the local elections in Vukovar back in 1991?
13 A. Yes, I do, the SDP.
14 Q. Following that election, was Mr. Slavko Dokmanovic, a member of
15 the SDP, not elected president of the municipal assembly?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you know that at one point in the summer of 1991, the
18 government of the Republic of Croatia replaced the legally elected
19 president, Slavko Dokmanovic, and appointed in his place a commissioner
20 from their own ranks, the HDZ?
21 A. I don't know about that. I was never into politics. I just did
22 my job so this wasn't something I was aware of.
23 Q. Was anyone in your family a member of the ZNG, National Guards
25 A. My son.
1 Q. Do you know if he attended a meeting of the ZNG that was organised
2 in Bogdanovci by Tomislav Mercep in March 1991 where about 2.000
3 volunteers assembled?
4 A. I know nothing about that. You can go on like this for the whole
5 day asking me questions about this but I still know nothing about it. I
6 know nothing about the political parties, I know nothing about Mercep. I
7 know nothing about this meeting that was purportedly organised. I know
8 nothing about that.
9 Q. Do you know that as early as May 1991, Croats were organising
10 themselves into groups all over Vukovar in order to defend, as they said,
11 from the local Serbs?
12 A. I made myself very clear. I'm no politician, and these topics are
13 not part of my testimony or experience. A lot of things happened in
14 Vukovar, many things, all sorts of things. It's just that I can't talk
15 about many things. I don't think that this should be part of my
16 testimony, specifically what happened in May. I really can't testify
17 about that. It would only make things more complicated. I would then
18 remember what happened in Borovo Selo in May. But these are all things
19 that I heard. This would be based on hearsay because I witnessed none of
20 those incidents nor was I directly involved in any of them.
21 Q. Did you perhaps hear any of the explosions that resounded all over
22 Vukovar in May, June, and July, when Serb-owned buildings were being blown
23 up as well as kiosks owned by the Borba newspaper company?
24 A. Yes, I heard explosions.
25 Q. Do you know where the barracks is in Vukovar?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Do you know that in the summer of 1991, the barracks was blocked
3 by ZNG members?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Do you know that sometime later, after the barracks' electricity
6 and water supplies were cut off, as well as their telephone lines, the
7 barracks was subjected to attacks by the ZNG?
8 A. I don't know about that. I wasn't into that.
9 Q. You'll agree, won't you, that it was only as late as August 1991
10 that clashes occurred between the ZNG and the JNA?
11 A. Yes, in August. I think it was August when fierce shooting
13 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we please go into
14 private session briefly? I have a brief set of questions that might
15 compromise the protective measures granted to this witness.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
17 [Private session]
11 Page 1206 redacted. Private session.
11 Page 1207 redacted. Private session.
5 [Open session]
6 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Vasic.
7 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Q. I would like to go back to some questions about the witness's
9 family. So perhaps it would be good to move into private session.
10 JUDGE PARKER: We are hesitant, Mr. Vasic, but, yes, we will go
11 into private for a little while and see whether it's necessary.
12 [Private session]
11 Page 1209 redacted. Private session.
11 Page 1210 redacted. Private session.
11 [Open session]
12 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.
13 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. You said in your statement that after the 18th, many people
15 started moving towards the hospital in the belief that the hospital was a
16 safe place; is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Do you know that members of the MUP and the ZNG also came with the
19 civilians to the hospital because they were withdrawing from the
20 frontlines at the time?
21 A. No. I don't know that. I didn't know that.
22 Q. Do you know that from the 16th of November, the news spread
23 through Vukovar that all those from the hospital would be evacuated under
24 the supervision of the European observers?
25 A. Perhaps I did hear something, yes.
1 Q. And did you know anyone who was a member of the ZNG?
2 A. My son was, I told you, and his colleagues. There were people
3 like that.
4 Q. Did you know who his commander was?
5 A. No, I didn't know that either.
6 Q. Did you see any of the colleagues that you mentioned in the
7 hospital after November 1991?
8 A. Well, the ones that I knew went to carry out a breakthrough. The
9 police and the young men from the ZNG went before the hospital -- before
10 the soldiers came to the hospital, to try to break through in the area
11 towards Vinkovci.
12 Q. Can you tell us a little bit more about this attempt to break
13 through to Vinkovci? How did this happen?
14 A. Well, I don't know. All I know is that they talked when they came
15 to Vinkovci and Zagreb, that they had assembled and then at night they had
16 set out to do that. Some of them were killed there because the terrain
17 was mined. Some of them were swimming across the Vuka river in November.
18 Some of them stayed alive going through the fields, which were mined.
19 Q. And did they tell you that considerable number of members of the
20 ZNG remained in Vukovar who did not participate in this attempt to break
22 A. No, I didn't hear anything like that, no. Many of them were
23 killed, about 5.000.
24 Q. In this action to break through?
25 A. No, but in the course of the fighting.
1 Q. And do you know that some members of the MUP changed into civilian
2 clothes in the hospital in order to leave the hospital with civilians?
3 A. I didn't see that.
4 Q. Did you know the members of the MUP who were securing the
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did you ever see any security at the doors to the hospital?
8 A. I didn't go out through the door.
9 Q. Throughout the period from September until the 20th of November,
10 you never left the hospital?
11 A. No. That whole time was spent in the cellar, in the -- below
12 ground level. Whoever ventured outside was killed.
13 Q. Were there any ambulance drivers in the hospital?
14 A. Yes, there were.
15 Q. Do you know whether they left the hospital premises?
16 A. If a shell fell somewhere and killed and wounded many people, then
17 they had to go and pick up the wounded there and then they brought them to
18 the hospital, so that would be that.
19 Q. And those ambulance drivers were alive until November 1991, isn't
20 that correct?
21 A. Yes. Some of them were alive. A driver drives a car. But if I
22 ventured outside on the streets, I would probably be struck by a shell or
23 by shrapnel.
24 Q. Where did you prepare the hospital meals? Can you tell us?
25 A. Yes. In one room, that was the ear, nose, and eye department.
1 There was a stove there. It was an improvised area. And that was where
2 we were making the meals because the proper hospital kitchen was damaged
3 with shells.
4 Q. And the place that you are talking about now was in the basement
5 of the old hospital?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And on the 18th and the 19th of November, did you prepare meals
8 for the hospital?
9 A. Well, there was nothing much to prepare because there was nothing
10 left. There was panic at the time. We were making tea. We had some
11 flour left so we were making some kind of bread or dough. The flour, we
12 mixed it with water and just fried it in oil, so this is what we served.
13 Q. Can you please tell us, breakfast was prepared in the morning for
14 the hospital, wasn't it?
15 A. Well, it was not set. On the 19th and the 20th, there was no
16 breakfast. Nobody had anything to eat. There was no breakfast.
17 Q. If I were to tell you that some hospital kitchen staff asserted
18 that on the 17th, 18th, and even the 19th in the morning, they prepared
19 food for the hospital, what would you say?
20 A. Well, I wouldn't say anything, if that is what they said that's
21 fine. But I'm telling you what I'm telling you now because that's what
22 the situation was for a couple of days before that, that we didn't really
23 have anything left in the hospital.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Mrs. Tuma?
25 MS. TUMA: Yes, thank you, Your Honour. The witness is asking
1 questions that could perhaps reveal her identity.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Do you have more questions of this type, Mr. Vasic?
3 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think that there is no
4 danger since we did hear that there were a lot of people. But I don't
5 have any more questions which would focus on some small group.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
7 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. The last few days spent in the Vukovar Hospital, did you move in
9 the rooms where the wounded were staying?
10 A. Only in a small area that I had to cross in order to reach the
12 Q. Can you tell me, did you hear that some of the wounded were
13 bandaged by the doctors or that the doctors put plaster on them in order
14 to pass them off as the wounded even though they weren't?
15 A. No, I didn't hear that. I didn't go and mix with the medical
16 staff. I just stayed in the kitchen. No, no. I didn't hear that. I
17 especially didn't see anything like that.
18 Q. In your statement given on the 18th of July 1995, did you state
19 explicitly to the OTP investigators that in the second part of -- on the
20 day on the 19th of November, you saw Bogdan Dukic, Darko Fot, Mirko
21 Vojnovic, and Marko Savic -- excuse me, Mirko Savic, taking out Martin
22 Dosen who was on a stretcher and that they dumped him into the yard to die
24 A. No. That's not how I stated it.
25 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please give a copy of
1 the B/C/S statement to the witness so that I can ask her to read out the
2 text in paragraph 1 on page 4 of the B/C/S version. This can be found on
3 page 3, paragraph 2, of the English version.
4 Q. Madam, would you please read out the first paragraph on page 4 of
5 your statement, slowly, please, to so that the interpreters can interpret
7 A. "On the 19th of November, Vukovar fell. Many civilians kept
8 arriving in the hospital throughout the entire day, seeking shelter. I
9 can't say exactly how many there were. In the second half of the day, the
10 JNA soldiers entered the hospital. Dr. Bosanac negotiated with the
11 members of the JNA to secure the hospital, i.e., to prevent the Chetniks
12 from entering it. JNA promised to us that we would be evacuated to
13 Croatia without problems. However, many Chetniks managed to enter. The
14 hospital had a main entrance and another entrance into the basement.
15 There were also two gates in the hospital yard. The Chetniks, whom I saw
16 enter the hospital with the JNA soldiers, were Bogdan Dukic, Darko Fot.
17 Mirko Vojnovic, nicknamed Capalo, and Mirko Savic. I saw them take out
18 Martin Dosen, who was one of the wounded in the hospital. Although he was
19 on a stretcher, they still pushed him and just dumped him into the
20 courtyard -- in the courtyard, to die. He's among those listed as
22 Q. Thank you, Madam.
23 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] We will not be needing the document
24 any longer. Could the usher give it back to me if that's not any problem.
25 Q. Madam, is this your statement?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Thank you. While giving evidence today, when asked by my learned
3 friend, did you state that you only saw some people beating Martin Dosen
4 but you didn't see other cases of beating?
5 A. In the statement I gave in 1995, all of that is included. It is
6 stated there that I recognised the soldiers because they were from
7 Vukovar. However, I didn't explicitly state that they were the ones
8 carrying Martin Dosen. That was a mistranslation. Martin Dosen was
9 carried on the 20th in the morning.
10 Q. How do you explain, then, that in your statement, and you just
11 confirmed to us that this is the statement you gave in 1995, it is stated
12 that you saw that on the 19th? Is your memory fresher today or was it
13 fresher then?
14 A. My recollections are quite fresh, and they were so -- and they
15 were just as fresh back then in 1995. People were carried out on the
16 20th, not on the 19th.
17 Q. As far as I could understand, you spoke here about the incident
18 involving Martin Dosen, not about the wounded being taken out.
19 A. Martin Dosen was seriously injured. He was unable to walk.
20 Therefore he was carried outside of the building on a stretcher and then
21 they dumped him out of the stretcher and started beating him. That's what
22 I saw and that's what I said here.
23 Q. Today you told us that you didn't see the soldiers beating anyone
24 on the 20th of November 1991.
25 A. Except for Martin. I didn't see other cases.
1 Q. Didn't you say to us today that you didn't know who beat Martin
3 A. Yes. That's what I stated. I stated that in my original
4 statement and, as for the soldiers whose names I gave, those were the
5 soldiers who were in front of the hospital on the 19th afternoon. I
6 recognised them because they were the ones who walked about the premises
7 with rifles in their hands, and all of us recognised them because they
8 were people from the town.
9 Q. Once again I have to refer you to your statement given in 1995.
10 You read out the statement to us, rather, a sentence stating that you saw
11 them take out Martin Dosen, who was one of the wounded in the hospital.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Madam, please make sure you make pauses because of my microphone
14 which is turned on.
15 And then you stated that Bogdan Dukic, Darko Fot, Mirko Vojnovic
16 and Mirko Savic took away Martin Dosen. Please tell me what is the truth
18 A. This is just a case of mistranslation, nothing else. These people
19 were there. Martin Dosen, however, was taken out of the hospital on the
20 20th in the morning. I've already stated this three times. He was taken
21 out by the soldiers whom I didn't recognise and then these soldiers beat
22 him. I saw that.
23 Q. If this is a case of wrong translation, why did you say, then, in
24 your statement that these individuals dumped Martin Dosen out of the
25 stretcher and left him in the yard to die? Was that translated wrongly as
2 A. The soldiers dumped him, yes. It doesn't platter which soldiers.
3 Some soldiers dumped him. They dumped him out of the stretcher, beat him,
4 and left him there. I don't know what happened with him afterwards.
5 Q. In your statement given in 1995 to the OTP, did you say that on
6 the 20th of November, in the morning, as you were standing in the yard,
7 you saw many local Chetniks beating men?
8 A. They searched them, took everything out of their pockets, and as
9 for beating them, well, yes, they would hit them in passing.
10 Q. Today, you told us that you didn't see any cases of beating except
11 for Martin Dosen. What is the truth here?
12 A. Everything is the truth. Everything I said. They didn't really
13 beat them seriously. They simply pushed them. They would take everything
14 out of their pockets and then push them aside in order to pass through.
15 That's what happened. I didn't see anybody's head being broken because
16 that didn't take place there.
17 Q. Who did these things?
18 A. The soldiers who were there or, as you said that I'm referring to
19 them Chetniks, I have to tell you that we called them Chetniks, those who
20 were in Vukovar because they referred to Croats as Ustashas. So those
21 were Chetniks who were there with the JNA. They were not there on their
22 own. They were there with Major Sljivancanin and with the Yugoslav
23 People's Army.
24 Q. You told us today that 16 men who had hospital ID badges were
25 boarded on a bus; isn't that right?
1 A. These men left together with all other men who had been separated
2 in front of the hospital. Those 16 of them, I am not sure whether there
3 were exactly 16 or perhaps a bit more, or a bit less, had also been
4 separated from the group and put on buses. However, somebody asked -- I'm
5 not sure who did -- some women probably, women who worked at the hospital,
6 asked Mr. Sljivancanin to bring back their husbands, brothers and so on,
7 and after a certain period of time, I wouldn't know exactly how long,
8 these 16 men were brought back. They had been beaten, they were all
9 bloody. They had been beaten somewhere, maybe at Velepromet. You will
10 ask me whether I saw this. No, I didn't see this but all of them said
11 that they had been at Velepromet and were then brought back to the
13 Q. I am not going to interrupt you because I'm afraid that your voice
14 will be heard through my microphone but I would kindly ask you not to
15 answer in such a detailed manner. So all of these people were brought
16 back because they had hospital ID badges?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. If I were to tell you that in their statements, hospital workers
19 said that all of those people who had hospital ID badges were never
20 boarded on buses, that they were left standing in front of the buses?
21 A. No, that's not true. Nobody could have stated anything like that
22 because back then nobody even ever mentioned those hospital ID badges.
23 Q. Were you standing next to the buses?
24 A. No, no. The buses were parked in the yard. However, one could
25 see them. They were some 15 to 20 metres away.
1 Q. How do you know, then, whether somebody asked for their badges or
3 A. I stood there at the exit. This is where it was decided who would
4 go where. This is where they separated men from women, and this is where
5 men were boarded on buses.
6 Q. Do you know that upon the return of these buses into the hospital
7 yard, one of the hospital workers had to guarantee that the person on the
8 bus was a colleague hospital worker before that person would be allowed to
9 get off the bus precisely because they didn't have their ID badges on
11 A. I don't know that.
12 Q. Did you stand close to the buses upon their return?
13 A. We were still standing there when they came back, all beaten up.
14 The bus parked a bit further away and they walked back and then went to
15 look for their wives or whoever they had there. At any rate, they came
16 back and after a certain period of time, when it was time for us to go to
17 our buses, the buses where the women went to, then the men who had been
18 brought back joined the women and went together to those buses.
19 Q. Does that mean that you don't know how did they get off the buses?
20 A. I saw them when they came back. I don't understand your question.
21 What do you mean how they got off the buses?
22 Q. Did somebody had to confirm that they were indeed hospital
23 workers? That's what I asked you.
24 A. I don't know.
25 Q. You said today in answer to a question by my learned friend from
1 the OTP that one of the local Serbs said to a lady that they would all be
2 killed and that this was something that had been agreed.
3 A. Yes, that's true.
4 Q. Where did this happen? Where did you hear this?
5 A. On the way out of the hospital building, at the exit, right there.
6 There was a group much women, we were standing there waiting, this
7 uniformed man came along, he was rather senior, grey hair, quite tall.
8 There was this lady who asked him where they were taking the men, and he
9 said quite literally, "They will all be killed. This has been agreed."
10 Q. Can you tell us who this lady was that he spoke to? Do you know
12 A. I know neither of them. The lady was probably a civilian, someone
13 who came to Vukovar in order to escape from elsewhere. Maybe they even
14 knew each other. She took shelter in the hospital. That's what I was
15 trying to say. He came up to her. He talked to her. I was nearby, so
16 naturally I overheard their conversation.
17 Q. But you don't know who this person is? You did say that he was a
18 local Serb after all, didn't you?
19 A. When I say a local Serb, I apply that only to those I know
20 personally. All the others were all the same thing, all equal to me, they
21 were just military personnel wearing uniforms.
22 Q. Was that woman, too, a local resident?
23 A. Well, probably she was, since she happened to be in the Vukovar
24 Hospital. I'm sure that she was a local, too.
25 Q. You told us that you apply the term "local" to a person, you mean
1 you know somebody personally, and yet you used this very term in your 1995
2 statement to the OTP. You said "a local Serb" and you repeated that in
3 front of this Trial Chamber today. Does that mean that you actually knew
4 this person?
5 A. No. I didn't know that person. When I say a local Serb, that
6 means a Serb from Vukovar. That's what I would generally mean by using
7 that term. I didn't know this person. I didn't know him personally.
8 That's what I'm saying.
9 Q. When you heard what he said, did that scare you? Did that leave a
10 deep impression on you?
11 A. Yes. It did frighten me for the simple fact that my husband had
12 already been led away. I wanted to go and speak to someone but there was
13 no one for me to speak to. I wanted to plead that they bring him back
14 because he was handicapped. He was disabled. That's what I believed then
15 and I still believe that. He would not have been able to fight actively.
16 I wanted him brought back so that we may leave and, as I was hoping, go
17 back to our homes but this wasn't possible.
18 Q. This frightened you so much, didn't it?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Scared you to that extent that you only remember it now, 14 years
21 later; isn't that correct?
22 A. No. I've known this from day one.
23 Q. So why didn't you say so to the OTP in July 1995, if indeed you've
24 known this from day one?
25 A. If I had to tell the whole story of what happened in Vukovar in
1 1991, I wouldn't be out of this courtroom for the next three years. I
2 can't say everything. I can't say the whole story, and I can't
3 necessarily remember all the things at any one time.
4 Q. But you did say that your apprehension actually had to do with
5 your father [as interpreted]. Was that not material in 1995 when you
6 first told the story?
7 A. Yes. It was relevant then as it is now.
8 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Page 46, line 9, there is a mistake in
9 the transcript. Instead of father it should read "husband".
10 Q. But you will agree with me when I say that you never in fact
11 mentioned this prior to 2005, did you?
12 A. You mean that this man said what he said?
13 Q. Yes. What happened there.
14 A. Didn't occur to me. It's that simple.
15 Q. Thank you. You said today that when you were in the hospital
16 corridor, you heard a doctor speaking to an officer addressing him as
17 "Comrade Mrksic"?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Who was with you, if anyone, when you heard that?
20 A. My husband and I were walking down that corridor where the wounded
21 were lying and we were carrying a bag.
22 Q. Can you describe that doctor for us, please? The doctor who, as
23 you say, said that.
24 A. He had a white coat on, middle aged, and that was about it.
25 Q. Do you know his name?
1 A. Dr. Stanojevic, I think. I'm not sure that's 100 per cent
2 correct, but I believe so.
3 Q. Can you describe the officer now, please, the officer that the
4 doctor spoke to?
5 A. No, I can't. He was wearing a uniform, and the two of them were
6 walking down that corridor. There were beds on either side with wounded
7 persons in them. The doctor was saying, "This one is ours and this is not
8 one of ours." That's what I heard. That's what I witnessed. I just
9 walked by, of course, I didn't stop to listen to their conversation. I
10 just walked by and left the building.
11 Q. What sort of uniform was that officer wearing?
12 A. I think they all wore the same kind. They were all wearing JNA
13 uniforms. It's not like the Serbs had their own special uniform in
15 Q. What colour was it?
16 A. Camouflage but I can remember the colours. It's been 15 years.
17 It's very difficult to talk about the colours of their uniforms. He was
18 certainly wearing a uniform and not civilian clothes.
19 Q. Madam, but 15 years later, you happen to remember that there was a
20 doctor who addressed a military officer by saying, "Comrade Mrksic."
21 That's why 15 years later I think it's perfectly reasonable to ask you.
22 This "Comrade Mrksic," what sort of uniform was he wearing? Do you think
23 you can answer that or no?
24 A. It was probably a military uniform. What other kind of uniform
25 could it possibly have been?
1 Q. Are you absolutely positive that you remember correctly what you
2 have just described?
3 A. Yes. I remember their conversation. I was passing by and I heard
4 him say, "Comrade Mrksic." But that's all I know and I said so at the
5 outset. I just walked past them and left the hospital building.
6 Q. What time was it?
7 A. It was in the morning when we were on our way out.
8 Q. What time specifically?
9 A. As I said, it was between 6.30 and 7.00. I couldn't be more
10 specific because I wasn't wearing a watch. I know it was early in the
11 morning when we were supposed to leave the hospital building.
12 Q. So you claim that you remember this event clearly, but isn't this
13 the first time you've ever mentioned it? Isn't it true that this is the
14 very first time that you have referred to it? You ever never spoken about
15 this doctor addressing a military officer as "Comrade Mrksic," have you?
16 A. No. In fact, I did refer to this in my statement back in 1995.
17 This is certainly not the first reference that I've made to it.
18 Q. In your 1995 statement, you make no reference to a doctor who
19 addressed an officer as "Comrade Mrksic." You told us in that statement
20 in 1995 that you personally saw Mrksic, that he was there, and that he was
21 giving orders, didn't you?
22 A. Mrksic was speaking to that doctor. I'm not sure if it was
23 Mrksic, in fact. He only called him "Mrksic" but I didn't know who Mrksic
24 was. And this doctor was telling me about who each of the patients were.
25 Q. You didn't say so in your 1995 statement, did you?
1 A. I did. I did say that. I did say that I'd heard that, that the
2 patients were being classified.
3 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Can I have the usher's assistance,
4 please, to show the witness her own statement dated the 18th of July 1995?
5 I will ask her to please read out a passage on page 4, passage 2 or
6 paragraph 2 of the B/C/S. And on page 3, paragraph 3 of the English.
7 Q. Madam, can you please slowly read out the passage that I've just
8 referred to?
9 A. "On the 20th of November at about 7.00 a.m., the slightly wounded
10 and civilians were taken away from the hospital at the order of Major
11 Sljivancanin and were boarded on to six buses. That morning, I saw a Serb
12 doctor, it was either Dr. Stanojevic or Dr. Manojlovic, who are very much
13 alike and I always confuse them. He was going around the corridor with a
14 JNA officer pointing at the wounded saying, "This is one of ours, this is
15 not one of ours." He was already wearing a military JNA uniform and no
16 longer a white coat."
17 Q. Thank you, Madam. That's quite sufficient.
18 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] If the usher could please take the
19 document away from the witness.
20 Q. Will you agree with me that in this portion of the statement you
21 make no specific reference to Mr. Mrksic or Comrade Mrksic?
22 A. Yes, that's true. Not in that portion of my statement.
23 Q. The portion of your statement where the doctor actually addresses
24 someone, a person, and you make no reference to Comrade Mrksic. Likewise,
25 today, you said that the doctor was in fact wearing a white coat, whereas
1 your statement clearly reads that he was wearing a military uniform. If
2 you could just please tell me which one of these is, in fact, true?
3 A. One of them was perhaps wearing a white coat, or rather positively
4 he was wearing a white coat. And the other person was in a military
5 uniform. I wouldn't have said so if that hadn't been the case. When the
6 army came in, the Serb doctors were immediately together with the army.
7 Q. But I'm asking you about the way you remember things. Not about
8 what you suppose to be the case or to have been the case. Was the doctor
9 in fact wearing a uniform or a white coat? Which is true?
10 A. There was one of them who was wearing a white coat and the other
11 doctor was wearing a military uniform. There were several of them, not
12 just one standing there.
13 Q. What about Dr. Stanojevic? What was he wearing?
14 A. The white coat. And he said, "Comrade Mrksic." He said that. I
15 heard it and I don't know why I didn't say it at the time. Maybe I just
16 didn't remember to add that, but he certainly said "Comrade Mrksic." And
17 you can ask away but I have nothing else to say.
18 Q. You said perhaps you didn't remember. You didn't remember what?
19 The name Mrksic perhaps?
20 A. No. I didn't remember but I'm saying now that it was Mrksic. He
21 said, "Comrade Mrksic."
22 Q. But back in 1995, you didn't know that he was Mrksic?
23 A. I probably said so. Most certainly. I believe I said so, it just
24 wasn't recorded. Perhaps I forgot to say it. Maybe I just said "a
25 high-ranking military officer."
1 Q. If indeed you said high-ranking military officer, does that mean
2 that you were not familiar with the name Mrksic, that it didn't ring a
3 bell at the time?
4 A. Yes, it did. I was familiar with that name.
5 Q. Didn't you tell us today that you had not in fact seen Mrksic
6 giving any orders in the hospital?
7 A. All I said today was that I heard what I heard in the corridor as
8 I was passing by: What the doctor said, in passing.
9 Q. Unfortunately I must show you that in your 1995 statement you
10 stated that you had heard Mrksic giving orders, but you did not mention
11 him in the context of having a conversation with that doctor. What I want
12 to know is, why these discrepancies? And which is true?
13 A. It's all true but you're asking me questions only in order to
14 confuse me. I can't talk in this way. I'm just telling you what I saw.
15 I'm telling you what I heard at the time. I never added anything. I
16 never made anything up. Nor am I able to. Otherwise I would not be
17 sitting here now. I am simply telling you what I went through. I'm
18 telling you what I heard. I didn't make any of this up.
19 Q. Madam, in your statement that you gave to the Prosecution in
20 October 2005, there are many different details compared to your statement
21 from 1995, and I have already covered most of these differences. But what
22 I am interested in is were you sure what you were saying about what you
23 were saying in 1995 and are you sure about what you are saying now?
24 Because the differences are quite significant.
25 A. All I can tell you is that I heard from that doctor, that he
1 said, "Comrade Mrksic." This is what I heard him say. I don't know what
2 else I can tell you.
3 Q. Did you say in your statement of 1995 that you saw Colonel Mrksic?
4 Do you remember that?
5 A. Well, I -- I'm not really well-versed in ranks. I don't know who
6 is a colonel, who is a general. I don't know ranks.
7 Q. But you mentioned Major Sljivancanin several times today. How do
8 you know that?
9 A. Well, I know that because the others addressed him as Major, and
10 even he said that he was Major Sljivancanin, when he was talking to
11 representatives from the international community. That's how I know it.
12 Otherwise I really am not familiar with ranks.
13 Q. Do you know if anybody insisted that you mentioned name Mrksic in
14 your statement when somebody -- or when they were talking to you?
15 A. Nobody talked to me. Since 1995, when I gave the statement, I
16 forgot about it, absolutely, until there was talk about testifying and
17 then it was said that I would testify in 2005. So since then until now, I
18 never talked about that with anybody. I went through a lot of trauma
19 because of that and I'm trying to bury all of the things that happened to
20 me deep inside, and I very rarely talk about the things that happened to
21 me during the war.
22 Q. If I were to tell you that the Defence will show that, on the 20th
23 of November, Mr. Mrksic was not at the Vukovar Hospital, would you allow
24 for the possibility that you mixed up the people and that the person you
25 saw was actually not Mr. Mrksic?
1 A. If that can save him from everything that he did in Vukovar, then
2 it doesn't have to be him, as far as I'm concerned. As far as I'm
3 concerned, it was a military officer who I saw. I was afraid of all the
4 military personnel that I saw there. And that's as much as I can say.
5 Q. Well, I'm going to rephrase the question so that we don't have to
6 move into private session. Do you know that water and food provided by
7 the JNA arrived at the hospital in the afternoon of the 19th?
8 A. I don't know. Perhaps they brought water. But I don't know where
9 they would have brought the water from since there was no water in Vukovar
10 other than in polluted wells which were full of soil.
11 Q. I'm asking you about this because of your post at the time, and
12 I'm not going to mention what it was, but are you saying you don't have
13 any information about that, that you don't know anything about that?
14 A. No, I don't know anything about that.
15 Q. Can you tell us if the list of persons missing from the Vukovar
16 Hospital was given to the members of the European monitoring or observer
17 mission while they were still there on the 20th of November?
18 A. People were still boarding buses and they asked that a list be
19 made of those who were missing. For example, if my husband was missing,
20 then I would say that person is missing. So each person had to report who
21 was missing, that they knew of. One person wrote that down and this was
22 given to those people.
23 Q. Thank you. Did you know that the hospital staff were asked by JNA
24 officers if they wanted to stay in the Vukovar Hospital and continue to
25 work there or if they wanted to go to Serbia or Croatia?
1 A. No. I didn't know that.
2 Q. Did you know that even after the 20th of November, there were
3 Croatian doctors who remained working at the Vukovar Hospital?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Would you be surprised if I were to tell you that many hospital
6 staff did say that they were asked if they wanted to remain in Vukovar or
7 if they wanted to leave?
8 A. No. That wouldn't surprise me.
9 Q. Thank you. Madam, thank you very much. I have no further
11 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further
12 questions for the witness.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Vasic.
14 We will break now and resume at 10 minutes to 6.00.
15 --- Recess taken at 5.28 p.m.
16 --- On resuming at 5.52 p.m.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Mrs. Tapuskovic.
18 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Before I
19 start with my cross-examination of the witness, I just wanted to ask the
20 Trial Chamber a question and that is actually to assist all of the Defence
21 teams with the use of certain exhibits during the cross-examination. My
22 question is very brief, Your Honours. During cross-examination, can the
23 Defence use a document from the system which the Prosecution provided to
24 the Defence under Rule 65 ter? Now that we are using the E-Court system,
25 their documents are in the system. In the procedural sense, will the
1 Trial Chamber permit the Defence to use these documents during
2 cross-examination? Thank you. And these are documents that have still
3 not been used by the Prosecution during the examination-in-chief.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Did you refer to Rule 65 ter?
5 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I did refer to
6 Rule 65 ter.
7 JUDGE PARKER: Mrs. Tuma, do you have any particular submission?
8 MS. TUMA: Only that the exhibit in question needs to be relevant,
9 of course, to this witness.
10 JUDGE PARKER: I think we can rely on that.
11 MS. TUMA: Well, thank you.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Certainly, Mrs. Tapuskovic, and for all Defence
13 counsel, if you have had disclosed to you for the purposes of the trial a
14 document, then that document may be used by you. If you don't have it and
15 you want it, the original, you should let the Prosecution know so that
16 they can provide it. It may be that they will be content for us to use
17 the electronic version that is in the system when you want to use it.
18 Does that answer your question?
19 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, for these
20 instructions. This will be of great assistance to the Defence because so
21 far, during cross-examination of one of the witnesses, a document like
22 that was used, but we didn't ask for a clarification at the time. We
23 would not wish, however, to proceed too far with this manner of using the
24 documents without receiving guidelines about what is possible and what is
25 not. Thank you very much. Now I would like to start with the
1 cross-examination of the witness, if you allow me.
2 Cross-examined by Ms. Tapuskovic:
3 Q. Madam, good afternoon, or good evening, I am Mira Tapuskovic, and
4 I am the co-counsel for the accused Miroslav Radic in this case. I would
5 like to ask you some questions this evening and I would ask the same thing
6 that my colleague Mr. Miroslav Vasic asked you and that is to speak slowly
7 because it is very important both for you and me to make sure that we do
8 not overlap because of the microphone so that we do not violate the
9 security or the protection measures that you have been granted.
10 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like at the
11 beginning of my cross-examination of this witness to move into private
12 session briefly because I would like to abide by the request of my learned
13 friend from the Prosecution whenever we are discussing the profession of
14 the witness, to do it in private session. Thank you.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
16 [Private session]
11 Page 1235 redacted. Private session.
11 Page 1236 redacted. Private session.
11 Page 1237 redacted. Private session.
13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.
15 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Can you please tell us, after 1995, did you have any further
17 contacts with the OTP representatives?
18 A. No.
19 Q. How did you then find out that you would have to testify in this
21 A. I had no contacts with them from 1995 until now, when this trial
22 started. Then they called me and told me that I would testify in this
24 Q. Madam, I asked you when.
25 A. I don't know when. Some months ago. I don't know when.
1 Q. Would you please try and be more specific. Some months ago could
2 be two, five, or seven months ago.
3 A. Well, specifically the first time they called me to say that I
4 would testify was this summer. I know that for a fact. Perhaps it was
5 mid-July but I couldn't be more specific about the date. It was then.
6 And then later on --
7 Q. Thank you. Thank you, Madam. Please tell me, how did the
8 Prosecution establish contact with you?
9 A. They called me on the phone.
10 Q. Did you then meet with any OTP representatives?
11 A. No.
12 Q. What were you told on the telephone?
13 A. That three people from Vukovar, accused for war crimes in Vukovar,
14 or I don't know how they termed it, something like that, they said that
15 they were in The Hague or something like that, and then they said that the
16 trial would start in 2005 and that I would be a witness here.
17 Q. Madam, in July of 2005, they told you that the trial would start
18 in 2005? Is that what you're trying to tell us?
19 A. Yes, that's what I'm trying to tell you, yes. In 2005 there would
20 be a trial. I don't know. I can't explain this any better. I simply
21 didn't try to remember the dates when they called me. At any rate, they
22 just informed me that there would be a trial and that I would testify.
23 Q. So you can't tell us more specifically when they called you?
24 A. Well, they called me this summer. They definitely called me this
1 Q. Thank you, Madam. I did my best, both during your
2 examination-in-chief, when you were examined by my learned friend from the
3 Prosecution, and during cross-examination when you were examined by
4 Mr. Vasic, I tried to note down all of the instances when you were unable
5 to remember the dates, and, to tell you the truth, I was unable to manage
6 it. I was unable to keep track of that. But I will continue trying to do
7 my best.
8 When asked by Mr. Vasic, you told us that you never met here
9 Mrs. Bosanac and other witnesses. How come you know that these people
10 were here in The Hague as witnesses?
11 A. On television, they reported that Dr. Vesna Bosanac would be the
12 first witness to testify in this case. I was still at home when I heard
14 Q. You said that you didn't meet her here.
15 A. No.
16 Q. When you talked here with the representatives of the OTP, my
17 learned friend from the Prosecution did not contradict this statement that
18 you have been here for 10 days, which is something that my colleague Vasic
19 alleged. But you did talk to him during one day?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Can you tell us what day it was?
22 A. Maybe Thursday.
23 Q. That day of the week, do you remember the date?
24 A. To tell you the truth, I don't know what date it is today.
25 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us how many hours this interview lasted
1 when you met with the OTP representatives here?
2 A. One hour, one hour ten minutes, something like that.
3 Q. Can you describe to us the course of that conversation or
5 A. Mostly -- I don't know how to explain the course. Mostly it was
6 questions and then I said something similar to what I stated in 1995.
7 Q. I will try to assist you, Madam. Did they put questions to you or
8 did you simply start explaining things on your own?
9 A. I started talking, just as I'm talking about the events that I
11 Q. Madam, this is what you said in 1995. This is the story you gave
12 in 1995. Did somebody put any questions to you before you started
14 A. Well, we started --
15 Q. How did you start?
16 A. Well, we started from 1991 and what happened then and I don't know
17 what else.
18 Q. No. How did the conversation begin, the conversation between you
19 and the OTP representatives?
20 A. Well, it started normally, just as we discussed things today.
21 Q. So you talked to the OTP representatives today as well?
22 A. No, no. I meant my testimony. I'm testifying today.
23 Q. Madam, is this a conversation or a testimony?
24 A. Testimony.
25 Q. So is it your evidence that you didn't talk to the Prosecution
2 A. Well, when would I be talking to the Prosecution today?
3 Q. Madam, I have to remind you that you are under oath.
4 A. I am. And I'm telling you everything I know. You're trying to
5 confuse me. You're doing everything to confuse me.
6 Q. Madam, this is the last thing on my mind. I do not want to
7 confuse you.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Mrs. Tuma?
9 MS. TUMA: Thank you, Your Honour. The witness is confused here
10 and is those questions really relevant to the specific case, what happened
11 in the hospital?
12 JUDGE PARKER: They are relevant to credit, Mrs. Tuma, and I think
13 they are being advanced on that basis.
14 But I think it's fair to say, Mrs. Tapuskovic, that by and large,
15 you've made your point in this field. We've got the message and you could
16 be encouraged to move on fairly soon to something that's nearer the issue
17 in this case.
18 MS. TUMA: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you very
20 much. I will comply with your instructions fully, but let me just
21 reiterate that never once did I want to confuse this witness. I simply
22 wanted to verify some data or, rather, the circumstances under which the
23 corrections were made, the corrections which were given to us just a few
24 hours before the witness started testifying. Now I will turn to some
25 other topics. Thank you.
1 Q. In your statement given in 1995, you said that the artillery
2 attacks were launched in Negoslavci. Tell us, when did these artillery
3 attacks start?
4 A. In August.
5 Q. Was it at the time when you already moved to the hospital or not?
7 Q. So that means that these attacks started before mid-August?
8 A. They started on the 24th of August. After that time I was unable
9 to go to work.
10 Q. All right. So the bombing of Vukovar started on the 24th of
12 A. Perhaps it started earlier, but after that date it was impossible
13 to move about. The buses were not running any more and I was unable to go
14 to work.
15 Q. Madam, if I were to tell you that the hospital director,
16 Mrs. Vesna Bosanac, and the chief nurse of the surgery ward, Mrs. Binazija
17 Kolesar, and another protected witness in this trial, stated that the
18 bombing of Vukovar started on the 25th --
19 A. What significance does one day have?
22 A. I don't celebrate my birthdays and I remember that it was the
23 24th. We came to work and we had to go back home, and after that we
24 didn't work any more.
25 Q. I assume you have no military training.
1 A. I do not.
2 Q. The only schooling you have is this school you completed. I would
3 rather not repeat the name of the school in order not to compromise your
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. On Thursday, during examination-in-chief, on page 74, line 24, you
7 said that the entire time you were in the hospital, which is just over two
8 months, to be precise, two months and five days, were spent in the atomic
10 A. Yes. Mostly in the basement. I really don't distinguish between
11 the atomic shelter and the basement. The atomic shelter is underground as
13 Q. Thank you. Throughout that time while you were in the shelter,
14 atomic shelter or in the basement, were shellings continued?
15 A. Yes. There were daily shellings.
16 Q. Can you tell us where was the town shelled from, from what
18 A. Yes, I can. From Negoslavci. Mostly from there. And from
19 Petrova Gora. Petrova Gora constitutes a part of Vukovar.
20 Q. Can you tell us, please, how do you know about that since you were
21 spending all of your time in the basement?
22 A. That was before I went down into the basement. A shell launched
23 from Petrova Gora fell on my garage.
24 Q. Fell on your garage?
25 A. Yes, the garage, the house. There was shrapnel all over the place
1 causing damage. I was in the house that time.
2 Q. I'm talking about the period of time when you were no longer
3 leaving the atomic shelter or the basement. How could you tell at that
4 time where the artillery fire was coming from?
5 A. It was coming from all over. Hundreds of shells landed every day.
6 Thousands of shells landed on Vukovar every day.
7 Q. You must have heard this from someone, that these shells were
8 falling since you never left the basement. Who toll you this?
9 A. I saw it. I experienced it.
10 Q. Can you tell us exactly what you saw?
11 A. The hospital yard, the streets, I saw all of that. I was there
12 for so long and perhaps every now and then I would emerge just to see what
13 was going on outside from where I was in the basement. You could hear the
14 planes flying overhead. You could hear their sounds with perfect clarity
15 even in the basement.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we now use the
18 E-Court system to show the witness Exhibit number 48? And could the
19 witness kindly take a pen and then we shall make a joint effort to draw
20 something on that drawing.
21 Q. Madam, you will receive instructions and questions from me in due
22 course. Please try to answer the questions by drawing. We shall
23 certainly be requiring the assistance of Mr. Usher, too.
24 Madam, can you see in front of you a kind of hand-made drawing or
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Can you please tell the Trial Chamber, do you recognise what this
3 sketch shows?
4 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Could I perhaps ask the usher to
5 please zoom in? It's a very pale image and if we zoom in a little,
6 perhaps the witness will be able to see more clearly. Thank you.
7 Q. Madam, do you see what this sketch is supposed to represent?
8 A. I see the kitchen here and these four could be rooms in the
9 hospital or something.
10 Q. Does this sketch give you any idea of what sort of a facility or
11 building we are talking about here?
12 A. No.
13 Q. You don't actually recognise this as a sketch, a ground plan of
14 the hospital?
15 A. Yes, now I do see that.
16 Q. But you only realised once I've told you what it was. Thank you.
17 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] It is quite obvious,
18 Your Honours, that the witness has not identified the sketch as the
19 hospital so I will no longer be using it. But by your leave I would like
20 to do now what you allowed me to do at the outset of my cross-examination,
21 that is to use OTP exhibits pursuant to Rule 65 ter, documents disclosed
22 under Rule 65 ter.
23 If I could have the usher's assistance, please, now, to display on
24 our screens Exhibit 224 pursuant to 65 ter, the 65 ter list of the
25 Prosecutor. This is a set containing 12 photographs showing the hospital.
1 If we could please have the document number 0053-1257? Can we please show
2 the witness the third photograph in the sequence? As far as I know, that
3 is the first photograph in the set, the colour photographs. I apologise
4 for the way I'm standing or, rather, bending, but that's because I have to
5 see the image too and it's right behind my lectern.
6 Q. Madam, do you see the photograph on your screen?
7 A. Yes.
8 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please blow it up
9 a little?
10 Q. Do you recognise this building?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Will you please tell the Trial Chamber what building is this?
13 A. This is not the main facade of the hospital. This is from the
14 inner court.
15 Q. But there building is the hospital, isn't it?
16 A. Yes. But this building is intact.
17 Q. But that's not my question. I'm asking you if this is the
18 hospital. Madam do you perhaps have problems because the light is
19 refracted in a funny way on your scene so you can't see it properly?
20 A. Yes, I can see it.
21 Q. So is this building the Vukovar Hospital?
22 A. I would have to look at it from the entrance, the way it's shown
23 here, this might as well be any other building in Vukovar because they all
24 look alike.
25 Q. But Madam, does this remind you of the Vukovar Hospital,
1 regardless of the angle?
2 A. For me, the angle is very important because Elektroslavonija in
3 Vukovar also looks like this. There are lots of buildings looking like
4 this in Vukovar so the angle is essential.
5 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] If I could have the usher's
6 assistance, please, I would like to slow the witness photograph number 5.
7 We have number 6 on the screen now but this is perfectly acceptable for
8 the purposes of this examination.
9 Q. Madam, do you recognise this photograph, or rather, this building?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Can you tell us what it is?
12 JUDGE PARKER: Could I mention that the transcript notes "6," at
13 line 19, and I believe you said number 5. Is that correct? The
14 photograph number 5?
15 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it's an excellent
16 observation but for a while the screen was showing photograph number 6
17 when I looked at the screen and that's why I referred to photograph number
18 6, just in order no ascertain for the record that the photograph being
19 shown was not the one that I had requested. At any rate, all these
20 photographs suit my purpose, the purpose of this line of questioning.
21 Q. Madam, can you please tell us what this building is?
22 A. This should be the hospital.
23 Q. Let me help you along, if I may. I will tell you that this is the
24 Vukovar Hospital?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Would you then accept that this is the hospital?
2 A. Yes, it is. But while it was still intact.
3 Q. If you look at this photograph, can you determine whether the
4 photograph was taken before the events in Vukovar or is this a photograph
5 of the renovated, rebuilt hospital?
6 A. I no longer live in Vukovar and I have no idea what the renovated
7 or rebuilt hospital looks like.
8 Q. Perhaps, then, you could tell us whether this is the way the
9 hospital looked before the war?
10 A. Before the war, yes. It looked like this. It looked similar.
11 Maybe not all the details tally, but ...
12 Q. In your statement to the OTP, you said that the Red Cross signs
13 were displayed in the yard and on the hospital roof. Could you now please
14 use the pen given to you by Mr. Usher - thank you - try to use it in order
15 to mark on this photograph the spots, where according to your recollection
16 the Red Cross signs used to be? Can you please use the pen to mark that?
17 JUDGE PARKER: Are you asking the witness to mark the screen?
18 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE PARKER: That does not show up electronically, I'm afraid.
20 All you'll be doing is marking and damaging that particular screen but
21 nothing will show for anybody else.
22 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we are still trying
23 to find our way around this new E-Court system. However, the witness is
24 pointing at something and for the sake of the record --
25 JUDGE PARKER: Mrs. Tapuskovic, I am told that it -- we may have
1 got the system to the point where that can actually now be done. When we
2 started the trial, I understood that couldn't be. But we can try that, as
3 you were suggesting, and see if it can work and, if it does, there could
4 be an electronic picture taken of what is marked.
5 Mrs. Tuma?
6 MS. TUMA: Yes, thank you, Your Honour. Before marking or -- I
7 would like to ask the Defence if they could clarify when this photo is
9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. It's your photograph, though,
10 Mrs. Tuma.
11 MS. TUMA: Yes, I'm absolutely aware of that but while the Defence
12 is using is -- and putting questions to the witness in order for her to
13 clarify or to answer questions, then I should is -- suppose that the
14 Defence should know what year at least the photo is taken in order perhaps
15 to have a correct answer.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Well, whether or not the Defence knows, it would
17 appear to the Chamber to be important that the witness be told. She has
18 more than once so far indicated her concern that this is showing an intact
19 hospital, or an intact building.
20 Do you happen to know the year, Mrs. Tapuskovic? If not, I'll ask
21 Mrs. Tuma.
22 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this photograph and
23 similar photographs have already been tendered during the testimony of
24 Binazija Kolesar. These photographs belong to the same 12-photograph set,
25 from Prosecution Exhibit 224. The Defence does not know when, unless we
1 went back to the 65 ter list, which we have available in the system. But
2 the same sort of question was asked by my friend from the OTP to the
3 witness or rather addressed to my colleague Mr. Borovic when --
4 JUDGE PARKER: Mrs. Tapuskovic, my question was, can you indicate
5 in what year this photograph was taken? Are you able to help?
6 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I think it was taken in 1995,
7 possibly 1997. This is at least the information that the OTP provided us
8 with during the testimony of Ms. Binazija Kolesar.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. So that this is a photograph you
10 understand to be taken four or five or six years after the events of 1991
11 and at a time when it would appear that reconstruction was advanced or
12 completed. So it's showing a building substantially restored.
13 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honour. I
14 just wanted to first get the witness to identify the building in the
15 photograph as the hospital and then the next thing would have been to ask
16 if this is perhaps the rebuilt hospital.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. You will no doubt now want to ask the witness
18 if she can identify the courtyard she spoke of and the other building that
19 she mentioned.
20 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. That was not
21 the line of questions that I had in mind. It was, rather, where we got
22 stuck because of technical matters, where we weren't sure whether we could
23 do it or not. But even so, once you had helped me with the explanation
24 that the technical possibility is now allowed us to mark things on the
25 image without damaging the original photograph, my intention was to
1 resolve this situation by having it stated for the benefit of the
2 transcript that on such and such a photograph, under such and such a
3 number, on the 65 ter list, Exhibit number 224, the witness, when
4 prompted, showed the roof as the spot in which the Red Cross sign had been
6 JUDGE PARKER: But haven't you first got to identify which
7 building she said the roof was -- the building which had the roof on which
8 the Red Cross sign was placed? I didn't understand her evidence to be
9 that this building was the building.
10 Mrs. Tuma?
11 MS. TUMA: Sorry to interrupt again, but just for information,
12 that photos were taken in July 1997.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
14 MS. TUMA: And if the line of the questioning from the Defence
15 side, photos from 1997, if that has any relevance to events taking place
16 in 1991.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Well, it will help the Chamber but importantly it
18 will help the witness to understand that this is not the building as it
19 was when she was there in 1991, that this is a building that we are
20 understanding now, some six years later, was in a state of substantial
21 repair from the damage done in 1991.
22 But returning to Mrs. Tapuskovic, do you understand the point I'm
23 making? I thought this witness described two places where there were Red
24 Cross signs. Am I correct in that?
25 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. That's correct,
1 Your Honour. Now I would like, in providing the explanation, not to
2 disclose the gist of my question and that is why I would like to be
3 allowed to ask the witness the question of whether she can show us on the
4 roof of the building where the Red Cross marking was?
5 JUDGE PARKER: Once you pose it like that, you are confusing, and
6 I think you can confuse the witness. Could I suggest you need to ask the
7 witness whether she can see in that photograph the places where the Red
8 Cross signs were displayed and proceed from there.
9 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Yes, I
10 will try to formulate my question in that way.
11 Q. Madam, can you see and indicate on this photograph, indicate with
12 the pointer, the place where in 1991 the Red Cross sign could have been?
13 A. Not on this photograph, but on a different building that was the
14 old hospital, at the entrance to the hospital. At the main entrance to
15 the hospital, there was a sheet or a flag with the Red Cross sign. I
16 didn't see that on this photograph and I cannot say, but these buildings,
17 these -- actually, this other building was not there, because during
18 the -- in the bombing, the first part of it was knocked down. So I don't
19 know, because I'm not there any more, but, in any case, it's not on this
21 Q. Thank you. Thank you, Madam. What you're trying to say is that
22 at the time when you were in the hospital, the Red Cross mark was not on
23 the roof?
24 A. It was on the roof but not on this building that you are showing
1 Q. Thank you very much. You've answered my question.
2 Can you tell us how much time your job took every day? How many
3 hours did you spend doing your volunteer work every day?
4 A. Mostly we were doing something the whole day. In the morning we
5 would make breakfast, then later we would make something for lunch.
6 Q. Well, Madam, you don't have to describe it because that can reveal
7 your identity. I was just asking about the number of hours that you
8 worked. Thank you. During the free time that you possibly had, how much
9 did you move around in the other rooms in the basement of the hospital?
10 A. Very little.
11 Q. I assume that most of your free time was spent in the room with
12 your husband; is that correct?
13 A. My husband was there, lying there as a wounded person. He was
14 lying where the other wounded people were.
15 Q. Thank you. So your husband was not in the same room as you?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Out of the 12 people who were in the room with you, were there any
18 wounded people there?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Can you tell us who were those people? Were there men there,
21 women, children?
22 A. It was mostly women.
23 Q. You described the incident in your statement with the patient who
24 had a bomb drop between his legs. Did you see that personally?
25 A. I personally saw that, and I know that patient. I know his first
1 and last name.
2 Q. Can you tell me, at the time when the bomb dropped, was anyone
3 else there in the room?
4 A. Unfortunately, he was lying in the corridor. There was no room in
5 the rooms. He was lying on a bed in the corridor. He had a plaster cast
6 on his leg, and this big bomb dropped between his legs because his legs
7 were spread.
8 Q. Can you please tell me whether your husband was operated on or did
9 he go -- undergo any surgical procedure?
10 A. He was wounded in the neck so they were trying to stop the
11 bleeding there.
12 Q. My question was: Was he -- did he undergo any surgical procedure?
13 A. He had stitches done. I don't know. I mean, are you -- you
14 think -- are you thinking of that time when he was wounded?
15 Q. Was that surgical procedure or was this just an outpatient
17 A. Well, I don't know. I wasn't there when he was brought to the
19 Q. Do you know whether your husband was given anaesthesia?
20 A. No.
21 Q. So after that, very quickly your husband was fit?
22 A. Not very quickly. My husband was lying in a hospital bed until
23 the very last day.
24 Q. So throughout the whole two-month period your husband was lying in
25 bed because of a neck wound?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Thank you. Do you know whether, at that time, other than that
3 wounded person with the plaster cast who had a bomb drop between his legs,
4 do you know if there were other Serbs in the hospital?
5 A. He was a Serb also. Yes, there were Serbs.
6 Q. Were the Serbs separate?
7 A. No.
8 Q. So there was no difference in terms of where they were placed?
9 A. Whoever was wounded and brought to the hospital, he would be
10 accommodated somewhere. It wasn't great accommodation but there would be
11 a bed, a mobile bed, some place. People were put somewhere and they were
12 given medical treatment when they arrived.
13 Q. And, Madam, what would you say if I were to tell you that the
14 director of the hospital, Mrs. Vesna Bosanac, and the chief nurse,
15 Binazija Kolesar, said here, when they were witnesses, that Serbs were
16 kept in separate rooms? Would you accept that as a possibility?
17 A. No. I would not.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 JUDGE PARKER: I would just point out that the evidence was that
20 the Serb military were kept separate, not necessarily other Serb patients.
21 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct. Thank you,
22 Your Honour.
23 Q. Madam, could you please tell us if you know who Mr. Raseta is?
24 A. I heard of him on TV.
25 Q. Could you please tell us when you heard of him on the television?
1 A. Well, I don't know. During the war. I don't know. I heard the
2 last name Raseta on TV. I don't know anything more.
3 Q. Did you hear that during combat operations?
4 A. I heard of Raseta in 1990 [as interpreted] or 1992, 1993.
5 Actually, before the war. But during the war we didn't have television.
6 Q. You not in your statement and also a soldier named Sasa -- I asked
7 you if you remember any soldier called Sasa?
8 A. Yes. I remember that they said that there was a wounded Serb
9 soldier, he was taken to a room somewhere, and that he was being treated.
10 That's what was said. I don't know anything more about Sasa.
11 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, let me just see.
12 I'm being informed that there is a mistake in the transcript. It's on
13 page 79, line 19, the witness did not mention 1990, but there is 1990 in
14 the transcript. Thank you.
15 Q. In your statement to the Prosecution, you mentioned that the
16 soldier named Sasa talked with General Raseta. Now you said that you do
17 not remember hearing of General Raseta in later. What is the correct
18 information, Madam?
19 A. This was something that was talked about in the hospital, that
20 Sasa was calling General Raseta to tell him not to shell the hospital,
21 that he was in that hospital, that there were wounded, injured people
22 there. That's what it was.
23 Q. You told us earlier that you heard of Raseta on the television in
24 1992 for the first time.
25 A. I heard of him for the first time in 1992. Perhaps I'd heard of
1 him earlier in these stories. I mean, you asked me if I knew Raseta. I
2 don't know Raseta. I had heard of him but when you start with the dates,
3 then I really cannot -- cannot hold all of these dates in my head. It's
4 all mixed up, the dates, the years.
5 Q. You say that everything is mixed up, the dates, the years. Can
6 you please tell us, then, how you knew exactly on the 31st, when you spoke
7 with the Prosecution, the exact dates when certain things took place? Did
8 the Prosecution remind you of these dates?
9 A. No, they didn't remind me. The things that have to do with me
10 personally are things that I remember very well. And this Raseta and this
11 soldier Sasa, what do they mean to me? The dates which I keep in my head,
12 those dates I will recall for as long as I live.
13 Q. But these dates which you say you will remember as long as you
14 live, actually, are the dates where you made mistakes. On Thursday, on
15 page 77, lines 2 and 3, you said that you didn't know exactly when the
16 shelling stopped, the 17th, 18th or the 19th. These are not relevant
17 dates for you?
18 A. They are very relevant to me. It stopped on the day when the
19 Yugoslav People's Army stopped shooting, and it stopped shooting during
20 all of those dates, on the 17th, the 18th and the 19th, there was no more
21 shooting then.
22 Q. So could you please tell us, then, which day did the shooting
24 A. I didn't know what date it was then. I don't even know now.
25 Q. Thank you very much, Madam. You've given me the answer.
1 Did you see any of the staff members of the hospital, any of the
2 patients, any of the injured people, see carrying weapons?
3 A. No, I did not.
4 Q. You know that there was talk in the hospital that there were
6 A. Well, there can be all kinds of talk, but I didn't hear anything
7 or see anything.
8 Q. Can you please tell us if there was security at the hospital?
9 Hospital has security.
10 A. Well, I didn't see them either.
11 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would now ask to
12 go into private session for a moment.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
14 [Private session]
16 [Open session]
17 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I see that we have
18 two minutes left. I'm going to just put a very short question because I
19 would like to finish today and not to leave the end of the
20 cross-examination until tomorrow.
21 Q. Could you please tell us how long did it take for you to leave the
22 room where you were sleeping or you spent the night until you reached the
24 A. Perhaps about 15 minutes.
25 Q. How long is that corridor?
1 A. It's long. It's below ground-level. You had to pass through the
2 whole courtyard and then get to the entrance of the new hospital building.
3 I don't know how long it was. Perhaps it was some 50 metres long, maybe
4 more, something like that.
5 Q. And I have one more question. The soldier in this corridor from
6 the room where you were, to the entrance, whom did he tell that Serbs
7 should be separated to one side and Croats to the other? Who was this
8 addressed to?
9 A. This is not a good question. The soldier didn't say anything.
10 The doctor was telling the soldier. The doctor was telling the soldier.
11 He was walking around where the patients were because they were lying both
12 on one side and on the other side, so because he was a doctor he knew, of
13 course. He was from Vukovar. The military personnel were not from
14 Vukovar. The doctor was. So he was saying, "This is our man, and this is
15 not" about people.
16 Q. When you were explaining what happened with Martin Dosen in
17 response to Mr. Vasic's question, you said that these were men or people
18 from Vukovar, the people who were taking him out. Is this true?
19 A. No, I didn't say it like that. In my statement, it says that I
20 saw such and such Vukovar people and I mentioned their first and last
21 names. But these soldiers who were carrying Martin Dosen out, I don't
22 know who they were. They threw him down over there. That's what I saw.
23 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have
24 no further questions for this witness.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mrs. Tapuskovic for finishing in so
1 little time. We will need to adjourn now and evidence will continue
2 tomorrow at 9.00 in the morning. We move now to morning sessions for the
3 rest of the week. So we adjourn now until 9.00 a.m.
4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.02 p.m., to
5 be reconvened on Tuesday, the 8th day of November,
6 2005, at 9.00 a.m.