1 Thursday, 10 November 2005
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning, Madam. If I could remind you of the
7 affirmation you made at the beginning of your evidence that still applies.
8 Mr. Vasic.
9 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good
10 morning to everyone in the courtroom.
11 WITNESS: P-O21 [Resumed]
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 Cross-examined by Mr. Vasic: [Continued]
14 Q. Good morning, Madam. I hope you still remember the warning I gave
15 you yesterday, asking you to make a pause between questions and answers so
16 that the interpreters can have the time to interpret it and so that your
17 voice is not heard through my microphone.
18 I would now like to go back briefly to the Borovo Selo events in
19 May of 1991. When asked by my learned friend yesterday in
20 examination-in-chief you said that most of police members who were killed
21 in Borovo Selo were Croats. Is that right?
22 A. That's what I think.
23 Q. The police of the Republic of Croatia, were its members in
24 Borovo Selo before the events of multi-ethnic origin?
25 A. I wouldn't be able to answer your question with any degree of
2 Q. How do you then know that most of the killed policemen were
4 A. I said that I thought that they were, but I didn't claim that I
5 knew for a fact.
6 Q. Thank you. Yesterday during examination-in-chief you also said
7 that from one point in time until the 20th of November, 1991, you didn't
8 have regular electricity supply in the hospital and that on those
9 occasions you used generators to supply the electricity for vital
10 equipment and lighting in the hospital. I'm interested to know whether
11 these generators were used only for operating rooms in the hospital or
12 perhaps for some other premises as well.
13 A. They were used mostly for operating rooms, but also for the
14 purposes of the atomic shelter.
15 Q. You said for atomic shelter. Now, tell me, please, what type of
16 equipment was supplied by electricity from these generators.
17 A. Lights.
18 Q. Yesterday you gave us your position concerning the liberation of
19 Vukovar. When asked by my learned friend, you said there was no need for
20 anybody to liberate you, that you lived peacefully prior to that. We're
21 now referring to the autumn of 1991 and I have to ask you something. Did
22 you hear that prior to the beginning of the conflict in Vukovar there had
23 been explosions, that some people had gone missing? Do you think that
24 these people that had gone missing also had their families, their lives,
25 their homes?
1 A. Yes, you're absolutely right.
2 Q. And at one point they became victims of terror and somebody had to
3 protect them from it. Isn't that right?
4 A. Yes, we could say so.
5 Q. Yesterday you mentioned your colleagues Ivankovic and Manojlovic.
6 Do you believe them to be responsible individuals, professionals?
7 A. Absolutely.
8 Q. My learned friend yesterday asked you whether you had ever seen
9 any weaponry in the hospital. He even said that that -- he inquired about
10 the anti-aircraft weaponry, and you responded that you had never seen
11 something like that. What would you say if I told you that Dr. Ivankovic
12 and Manojlovic said in their statements that there was firing which
13 originated from the hospital aimed at the JNA airplanes?
14 A. I have a great deal of respect for these colleagues of mine as
15 people and as surgeons. Now I would like to reiterate that I have no such
16 information that there was any firing from the hospital, that any fire was
17 open from the hospital.
18 Q. Thank you. I would like to clarify another issue which was
19 brought up yesterday in one of the questions of my learned friend. You
20 said that at one point in time you moved into the basement of the
21 hospital, and that from then on you slept there. I'm interested now to
22 know whether this basement is in the old or new building of the hospital.
23 A. In the old part of the hospital.
24 Q. Do you know where the personnel who worked in the kitchen slept,
25 are you aware of that, in which building of the hospital?
1 A. Also in the old section of the hospital.
2 Q. I would like now to turn to the last day you spent in the
3 hospital, the 20th of November. Yesterday you said that there was a
4 meeting held that morning in the hospital, and upon leaving that meeting,
5 as you were walking to your room to collect your belongings, you noticed
6 the hospital was empty. I suppose when you said that you did not have in
7 mind the patients who were lying in their beds, who remained in the
8 hospital later, on the 20th and 21st of November?
9 A. If I'm not mistaken, I think I said that the hospital was almost
10 empty. And yes, you are right, there were patients in beds, not all of
11 them but some.
12 Q. Yesterday you said that on the 18th of November you were formally
13 informed that there would be an evacuation of the hospital and that it
14 would be conducted under the supervision of the International Red Cross.
15 Isn't that right?
16 A. Yes, that's right.
17 Q. Prior to this day you also probably were aware that there would be
18 an evacuation of the hospital?
19 A. I don't think I would agree with you as regards that question.
20 Until the last moment, we believed we would stay there.
21 Q. I'm asking you this because yesterday you told us --
22 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps it would be
23 better if we moved into private session.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
25 [Private session]
11 Pages 1411-1428 redacted. Private session.
23 [Open session]
24 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Vasic, that concludes your cross-examination,
1 does it?
2 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, my colleagues will
4 JUDGE PARKER: [Previous translation continues]... the public
5 understand now what has happened. Yes. Thank you.
6 Mr. Borovic.
7 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.
8 Cross-examined by Mr. Borovic:
9 Q. Madam, I am Borivoje Borovic, representing Miroslav Radic.
10 The first question: What was the name of the chief of your ward?
11 A. I apologise. I have a mental block. Perhaps you can assist me.
12 You must know the name.
13 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, before the witness
14 answers the question, I ask that we move into private session because of
15 these names. Thank you.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Private session.
17 [Private session]
10 [Open session]
11 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. The barracks of the Yugoslav People's Army -- therefore, the
13 barracks of the Yugoslav People's Army has existed in Vukovar since what
15 A. Ten, 20 years at least, but I wouldn't be able to be more
16 specific. At any rate for a long period of time.
17 Q. Did you ever visit the barracks?
18 A. Yes. When we were children, our schools went to tour the
20 Q. During the events in Vukovar, did you pass by the barracks?
21 A. No, there was no need for me to go in that direction.
22 Q. Therefore, we can conclude that from May until late November you
23 never passed by the barracks. Would you please give an audible answer?
24 A. I was just waiting for the interpretation to conclude; that's why
25 I was hesitant.
1 Q. Thank you. Yesterday you spoke about the planes of the JNA that
2 were shot down. You said that you were not in Vukovar on that day but
3 that you read about it in the media. What did you read about it? Who had
4 shot down those planes?
5 A. As far as I can remember, the information that was given was that
6 two planes were downed. As for who precisely had done it, I wouldn't be
7 able to say with certainty; therefore, I would rather not answer.
8 Q. Can you assist us with this. Later on during your stay in the
9 hospital, did you perhaps hear who might have downed those two JNA planes?
10 A. I did not inquire about that.
11 Q. Very well. Were there ethnic streets in Vukovar?
12 A. I really don't know anything about that.
13 Q. Does that mean that we can accept that fact if you know nothing
14 about that, namely the fact that the Serb houses and Croat houses were
15 intermixed throughout the town in various streets?
16 A. Yes, absolutely, there were.
17 Q. Can you please tell us something about this. How was the JNA able
18 to know which houses it fired on? Or can you tell us this: Was it only
19 the Croat houses that were damaged or did the Serb houses suffer damage as
21 A. The entire city was targeted and hit.
22 Q. Do you wish us to conclude that the JNA fired upon both Croats and
24 A. If the people lived throughout the city, if they were mixed,
25 intermixed, and if there were no ethical borders, then, yes, one would
1 come up with the conclusion that you gave us.
2 Q. All right. Then can you explain further the goals of the JNA that
3 you referred to yesterday. If the JNA attacked Serbs as well as Croats,
4 then what goals did they have?
5 A. If that is the case, you would have to address your question to a
6 JNA representative because it involves military objectives and goals, and
7 this is not something that I'm competent to discuss. This falls within
8 the military domain.
9 Q. Yes, Madam, but this is something that you spoke of yesterday and
10 you gave us your conclusions about these military issues despite the fact
11 that you are just a doctor. Do you have an answer to this question or do
12 you not wish to answer it?
13 A. I don't have a specific answer to give you.
14 Q. Thank you. The atomic shelter in the hospital, I remember what
15 you said yesterday concerning that. Therefore, my question will be very
16 specific. When did they start preparing this atomic shelter for use?
17 During what months were the preparations begun?
18 A. If I remember well, it was in September but I may not be correct.
19 Q. I will try to put to you the words of the witnesses who testified
20 here before you. The first two witnesses who were employed in the
21 hospital stated -- we don't need to go into private session. This is
22 something you're aware of and we will not be mentioning any names. They
23 stated that on the 2nd of May, 1991, the atomic shelter was prepared. The
24 director of the hospital was quite determined when she spoke of that.
25 What's your comment?
1 A. If she claims something like that, then it must be true. I have
2 no such knowledge. I didn't go to that part of the hospital. I can only
3 tell you when we approximately started using it.
4 As for the preparations, I know nothing about that. Those who
5 were in charge of the preparations would be better placed to answer that
7 Q. Do you then allow for the possibility that the -- that the shelter
8 was indeed prepared, that the preparations were started back then in May
9 of 1991? Do you allow that that is possible?
10 A. Yes, absolutely.
11 Q. Do you know when the atomic shelter at Borovo Komerc was prepared,
12 another atomic shelter that you spoke of?
13 A. I don't know.
14 Q. Would you allow for the possibility of this to have occurred in
15 May 1991?
16 A. If those responsible said so, there is no reason for me to state
18 Q. As we can see from your written documents as well as from the
19 statements you gave the investigators in the Dokmanovic case as well as
20 your testimony yesterday, there are numerous references to the ZNG. My
21 question is: The National Guards' Corps, in your opinion was it a
22 paramilitary formation?
23 A. I find that question difficult to answer, frankly.
24 Q. The way the Defence sees things, that too is a very good answer.
25 Did you know what a paramilitary soldier known as Zenga, member of the
1 ZNG, looked like? Did you ever see one of those wearing a uniform?
2 A. A military uniform, it's possible.
3 Q. Can you describe what the uniform looked like, what the weapons
4 looked like and what the insignia were like? I don't mean the rank, I
5 mean the sign, a badge, or insignia that were the distinguishing feature
6 of that particular paramilitary formation?
7 A. I can't describe the weapons because I don't understand about
8 weapons. I can tell you that it was a camouflage uniform, but I couldn't
9 describe it more specifically than that.
10 Q. Since you don't seem positive about this, please allow me to help
11 you. The insignia worn by that paramilitary formation, does it have the
12 letter U on it?
13 A. I have never ever seen such insignia on any of the informs that I
14 saw at the time.
15 Q. My next question is not meant to taunt you; it's meant in a very
16 serious manner. Can you please explain to the Trial Chamber who are the
18 A. This is something that I came across back in school. It's
19 something from the dark and distant past and is something to do with
20 World War II when there were a number of paramilitary formations around.
21 Q. So can you please share with us part of your recollection at least
22 in relation to this paramilitary formation known as the Ustasha?
23 A. When I think back to what we studied at school, those were
24 nationalistic units. They had a nationalistic charge, as it were, or
25 bias. I think that would probably best describe them.
1 Q. Which nationalistic environment or set did this emblem that you've
2 just described to us belong to?
3 A. The Croatian one.
4 Q. Thank you. There is information, some of it has been discussed
5 between this Trial Chamber, to suggest that comparisons were drawn at the
6 time between the ZNG and the Ustasha. I'm not sure if you're aware of
7 that, the implication being that the ZNG were seen as a continuation of
8 the Ustasha, another paramilitary formation from World War II. Were you
9 in fact aware of the fact that comparisons were being drawn by the two
11 A. No.
12 Q. Thank you. You belong to another time and I do not wish to take
13 you back to this distant and mirky past.
14 My next question: Do you who Franjo Tudjman is?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Who is he?
17 A. The first Croatian president.
18 Q. Would you please be kind enough to explain, what does this mean,
19 the first Croatian president? Did Croatia not have a president before
21 A. A president of the Croatian state, once it had declared
23 Q. Prior to that, had you been living in a Croatian state and did it
24 have its own president?
25 A. I lived in the Republic of Croatia, which was part of Yugoslavia.
1 Q. Did it have a president, this Republic of Croatia that was a
3 A. It always had a representative who was the representative of that
4 particular republic.
5 Q. What was this representative's name, the one before Tudjman?
6 A. I don't know.
7 Q. What does that mean?
8 A. That means I can't remember.
9 Q. Does that mean that for you the history of Croatia begins with
10 November 1991?
11 A. Certainly not.
12 Q. I hope the Prosecutor and the Trial Chamber don't mind.
13 So when does the Croatian history begin for you? Since you're an
14 intellectual, I believe I'm entitled to ask you this question.
15 A. Croatia had a history before these events and after. Croatia was
16 not created at this point in time; Croatia goes back a long time. But
17 your question is in relation to very specific things before and after. As
18 to when Croatia first came into existence, well, Croatia had existed as a
19 republic, if that's what you want me to answer. You can take that to be
20 an answer.
21 Q. Thank you. That I find a very satisfactory answer in fact.
22 My next question: Do you know that President Franjo Tudjman in
23 July 1991 visited Vukovar?
24 A. I wasn't aware of that.
25 Q. Do you know that in August 1991 the then-Croatian Prime Minister
1 Franjo Greguric also visited Vukovar?
2 A. I wasn't aware of that either.
3 Q. I would like to remind you of a fact, and I'll do it by asking a
4 question. On the 8th of August, the secretariat for Vukovar's People's
5 Defence adopted a decision to issue permits allowing persons to leave
6 town, and that it was only those in possession of such permits, that is
7 after the 8th of August, 1991, were allowed to leave town.
8 A. I did hear about this, but I can't be positive about this.
9 Personally I never needed that sort of permit, so I really don't know.
10 Q. What was it that you heard about these permits and who told you?
11 A. I heard that such permits existed, but not from anyone in
13 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Borovic, is that a convenient time?
14 We will resume at 11.00.
15 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
16 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.
17 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Borovic.
19 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Q. You testified that life in Vukovar was good before this happened,
21 that you had good relations with your neighbours who belonged to other
22 ethnic groups?
23 A. Yes, that's correct.
24 Q. Would you please answer the following question. Were you
25 personally in favour of Croatia's secession from Yugoslavia?
1 A. If the Trial Chamber permits, I would like to decline to answer
2 that question.
3 Q. Thank you. That, too, can be construed as a political position.
4 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please go closed session for
5 the next question?
6 JUDGE PARKER: Closed or private? Private will do, I suspect?
7 Closed means when we pull all the shutters down and -- yes.
8 Private session.
9 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Private session. Yes, thank you,
10 Your Honour.
11 [Private session]
11 Pages 1440-1445 redacted. Private session.
15 [Open session]
16 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.
17 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. I will repeat my question. Until when did the surgical ward have
20 A. I think until the end of October or maybe November. I'm not
21 absolutely sure. I'm talking about a continuous supply.
22 Q. You said to The Hague investigators on page 2, paragraph 5, I can
23 show it to you, and the Prosecutor can check that there was electricity
24 until the very end in the surgical ward. What is correct?
25 A. Well, if you take into consideration that they had generators,
1 those are two different issues.
2 Q. Do you know who cut off the electricity, if anyone, and where this
3 could have been done, because we are not from Vukovar?
4 A. I didn't say somebody cut off the electricity. I'm saying the
5 installations and powerlines were damaged, and that's why there was no
6 longer a continuous supply.
7 Q. Can we agree, then, that this Vukovar in the period you are
8 describing, if we recall your reply about water yesterday, that nobody
9 physically cut off the water and electricity supply to the hospital?
10 A. I believe that nobody did that physically.
11 Q. All right. Thank you. In view of your profession, which I will
12 not repeat in open session, how did you come by information concerning the
13 number of patients that the hospital in its entirety admitted as you were
14 only in one specific ward of the hospital?
15 A. Could you please clarify your question.
16 Q. You said something about these facts in the last session, and I
17 noted this down. As you put forward this information, I'm asking you as
18 someone working in a particular ward - and of course I won't say which
19 one - how and on what basis could you know how many patients turned up at
20 the hospital on a daily basis, the hospital as a whole?
21 A. The answer to that is very simple. As a doctor working under
22 those conditions, you're not there just physically. During the day, if
23 necessary, you visit other wards, including the surgical ward. But when
24 such things happen, you're physically present in those places where the
25 largest influx of patients is so as to be nearby, should your assistants
1 be needed.
2 Q. Thank you. And were you able to inspect the protocol on the
3 admission of patients for the entire hospital or not?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Thank you. Now another question that does not concern my client
6 directly but I feel could be significant for the Chamber. Do you know the
7 difference as to why those who died in hospital were wrapped in white
8 sheets and those who died elsewhere were not? Why was this done?
9 A. I have no knowledge of this. I'm not aware of this and I see no
10 logical reason for it if it was so.
11 Q. Thank you. As for the wounded and for members of the paramilitary
12 units known as the Zengas and the policemen who were brought to the
13 hospital, the people who brought them in, were they armed?
14 A. I did not participate in the directed mission. When a patient
15 came to me, at that point in time he had absolutely no weapons with him.
16 Q. That's correct when a patient arrives in your ward. But you said
17 I think just a while ago that you did participate in the admission of new
18 patients. And at that point, which is now of importance for the Defence,
19 can you tell us whether at that point it was armed men who brought these
20 people there; and if they were armed, what happened to the weapons.
21 A. What I did know was that there was a rule in the hospital that
22 weapons were not allowed to be brought into the hospital. They had to be
23 either left outside the hospital or they were confiscated as far as I
25 Q. Thank you. As for outside the hospital, all right. But as for
1 confiscating weapons, do you know who confiscated the weapons, where they
2 were stored, who was in charge of the confiscation?
3 A. The person who had to do this, I know such persons existed, but
4 whether they confiscated weapons, where, and where they stored them, I
5 don't know.
6 Q. As you know, Madam, that there were persons who did that, tell us,
7 were they members of police or the ZNG? Or perhaps it was a third party
8 who also was a member of the medical staff.
9 A. I think that my director would be better placed to answer that
10 question. I don't have an accurate answer to that question.
11 Q. Your director did answer that question. I can even remind you
12 that the hospital had internal security which consisted of policemen. She
13 gave us that reply, and you asked that I convey to you. Therefore, my
14 next question is: Was internal security of the hospital -- did it
15 comprise Vukovar policemen?
16 A. If that's what she said, then that's how it was. But I, myself,
17 didn't see any uniformed policemen there.
18 Q. Did you hear that policemen, regardless of whether they were in
19 uniform or not, provided internal security to the hospital?
20 A. Yes. I heard that there was security in the hospital to the
21 effect that no one was allowed to bring in weapons into the hospital.
22 Q. Thank you. Did you hear that there was also external security?
23 A. I wouldn't be able to answer that question.
24 Q. Let me see if I can assist you. When you were leaving the
25 hospital, or rather, I suppose that occasionally you left the hospital and
1 then came back, as you stated. In those cases, as you were leaving in the
2 yard or in the area surrounding the hospital, did you see any members of
3 police or ZNG?
4 A. You mean beyond the hospital compound?
5 Q. Yes. But in the vicinity of the hospital.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Were these people armed? You say that you saw them.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. As you were in the premises that you described to us and thus
10 unable to see what was happening outside, do you believe it possible that
11 they were also able to fire from these weapons? Do you believe it
13 A. I could say that, yes, it was possible. Now, whether they did it,
14 I don't know.
15 Q. Thank you for your answer. Now, can you explain to the Trial
16 Chamber and Defence what type of weapons these were.
17 A. I wouldn't be able to do that.
18 Q. Thank you. When on the 19th of November under the auspices of the
19 Red Cross and Zeljka Zgonjanin, as you explained to us civilians left, my
20 very specific question is as follows: Did the doctors remain in the
21 hospital, members of their families, ZNG, and police members?
22 A. And I would add civilians as well.
23 Q. These civilians, were they members -- family members of the
24 medical personnel as well as family members of ZNG and police members?
25 A. Civilians were also the wounded.
1 Q. I apologise for interrupting you. Please don't take me wrong. My
2 question is quite specific. Were civilians family members of the medical
3 staff employed in the hospital and members, family members, of the ZNG and
4 police members at that point in time?
5 A. I would say that civilians were family members. That is how I
6 comprehend the term civilians.
7 Q. Thank you. You said that when the JNA members entered the
8 hospital their attitude was quite proper and decent. Can you elaborate on
9 this. What did you mean by this? You described it quite fairly, so could
10 you give us some more details.
11 A. Since I saw the groups of soldiers coming in, I was able to see
12 that their attitude was quite decent. They didn't abuse anyone, either
13 verbally or physically. It was a proper, decent attitude of anyone
14 entering anybody else's premise.
15 Q. Thank you. Yesterday you stated that there was one Red Cross
16 marking. You showed us where it was in the yard between the two hospital
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. My question, if you're able to give us a logical answer, is: Why
20 was this marking not placed on the roof of the hospital, as is typical
21 pursuant to all regulations that you're aware of, regulations concerning
22 how to mark a hospital?
23 A. I believe that at the time it was physically impossible, because
24 who could be forced or who could be given a task to go and climb the roof
25 of the hospital when there was constant shooting and firing that would put
1 their life in danger.
2 Q. My next question is: Did you ever stand in a spot where the
3 marking was during those three months? Did you stand there or around that
5 A. Not, absolutely not.
6 Q. Did you pass through that yard between the old and the new
7 building during those three months?
8 A. Maybe once or twice.
9 Q. If one was to look across the Danube from that spot, would one be
10 able to see the Danube and also what was on the other side of the Danube,
11 on the other bank?
12 A. From that position, one cannot see the Danube.
13 Q. Can we then agree that if there was somebody on the Serbian side
14 of the Danube and shooting from there, then that person would be unable to
15 see the Red Cross marking that you just described to us?
16 A. I think that that question really falls under the military
18 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us where the infectious diseases ward
20 A. Yes, but I don't know how to describe it to you.
21 Q. Shall I assist you? The Defence is only interested in how many
22 storeys, if any, that ward had and whether it had a slated roof.
23 A. It was a one-storey building. It just had the ground floor and a
24 slanted roof.
25 Q. Can we then agree that that building also could not be seen from
1 the other side of the Danube, as I just described it to you?
2 A. Once again, you're trying to get me into the territory of military
3 questions. No, one could not see it from the distance of 200 metres.
4 Q. All right. Do you know then how distant the hospital and that
5 spot is from the other side of the Danube that I just described to you, as
6 the crow flies?
7 A. I wouldn't be able to say.
8 Q. Was this marking removed? And if so, when?
9 A. I know nothing about that.
10 Q. Do you have any information about the place of residence of the
11 then-director of the hospital called Vesna Bosanac?
12 A. I believe it was a neighbourhood in the vicinity of the hospital.
13 It was a private house, I think. Somewhere nearby but I don't know the
14 exact location.
15 Q. Did you ever go there?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Do you know where Vesna Bosanac slept during that time, whether
18 she slept in the hospital every night just as you did?
19 A. I don't think she slept there every night. I think she went home,
20 if I'm not mistaken.
21 Q. Could you elaborate on that. You had close contacts with her.
22 She was the director. Once director leaves, somebody has to substitute
23 for them. Therefore, please tell us, did she go home? What did you hear?
24 What did you see?
25 A. I heard this; I didn't see this.
1 Q. Thank you very much. Do you know how she went home? What did you
2 hear about that?
3 A. What do you mean how?
4 Q. Did she walk?
5 A. She was able to, but I don't know the exact location of the house,
6 therefore I cannot confirm with certainty that she in fact did go on foot.
7 Q. My next question is: Vesna Bosanac, did she drive around Vukovar
8 in a car in those days and months?
9 A. In those days, yes -- in those months, yes.
10 Q. Does this mean that cars were able to travel through the streets
11 and that movement was unhindered? Perhaps you have an explanation for the
12 fact that she was driving around the streets of Vukovar while the war was
13 going on.
14 A. Please don't misunderstand my reply. I have no intention to
15 provoke you, but let me just say that people drove around Sarajevo when
16 there was shooting as well.
17 Q. Yes. Thank you. People did the same in Belgrade, but I don't
18 think that we need to go into those topics today, either Belgrade or
20 My next question is: Do you know whether your director ever left
21 Vukovar and went to some other towns during September, October, and
23 A. I'm not aware of that.
24 Q. Do you know where the main headquarters of the ZNG staff was
25 located? Did you hear about that?
1 A. I don't know.
2 Q. Do you know that it existed?
3 A. I know it existed.
4 Q. How do you know?
5 A. I heard.
6 Q. From whom?
7 A. This is simply how information is conveyed. When there are a lot
8 of people in one place, people mention it. But I couldn't tell you who
10 Q. Were any of the employees of the Vukovar Hospital members of the
11 ZNG staff?
12 A. I wouldn't be able to answer that question.
13 Q. Thank you. When I put this question to you, I was referring to
14 the defence staff of the city of Vukovar. That was clear to you?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Thank you. Do you know what Durandal bombs are?
17 A. I do not.
18 Q. Did you ever hear of that type of weapon?
19 A. Durandal bombs, no.
20 Q. Do you know what cluster bombs are?
21 A. Based on what I read, these are bombs that disperse into small
22 fragments. That's what I know about that.
23 Q. Have you ever seen such a bomb?
24 A. Fortunately not.
25 Q. Thank you. Did you ever have any patients injured by phosphorous
2 A. I believe I didn't.
3 Q. I suppose that that wasn't typical for the kind of work performed
4 in your hospital?
5 A. I cannot exclude that possibility.
6 Q. I apologise. I didn't hear your answer.
7 A. I cannot exclude a possibility that somebody treated patients for
8 such injuries. However, that was not within my area of expertise.
9 Q. Can we then agree that you never came across such a case in your
11 A. I saw different cases of wounding.
12 Q. Yes. But can we agree that you never saw this type of wounds in
13 your professional career?
14 A. As I told you, I saw different cases of wounds. I saw burns.
15 Now, as to how these burns were caused, by what type of weaponry, I
16 wouldn't be able to tell you that.
17 Q. Did you ever receive information that somebody's burns were caused
18 precisely by this type of weapon?
19 A. Yes, I did.
20 Q. From whom?
21 A. I believe that there came a time when several persons were
22 admitted to the surgical ward with this type of injuries. I personally
23 didn't treat these patients.
24 Q. If I were to tell you that the hospital director stated that there
25 was just one person who came with symptoms consisted with -- consistent
1 with injuries caused by that bomb, how can I reconcile your answer saying
2 that there were several such cases? Because Dr. Bosanac was quite
3 adamant. She said there was just one single patient with that type of
5 A. I would say that we should believe Dr. Bosanac's words.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Borovic, I haven't checked the transcript. My
7 recollection is that Dr. Bosanac described one case, but I don't recall
8 her saying that that was the only case. I don't think she was asked that.
9 She certainly described one case. You're -- I suspect you may have taken
10 the further step of saying, Well, as she described only one, there was
11 only one. But I don't think that was specifically her evidence.
12 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm afraid that she
13 seemed quite decided in answer to my question. We can check that during
14 the break. I am nearly certain that I was the one who asked her the
15 question and that she seemed quite decided in her answer, but I will no
16 longer be pursuing this topic for the time being.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
18 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 Q. You stated on the 17th hostilities ceased and that citizens
20 started streaming in from many different parts of town. Did you spend
21 that whole day in the hospital, the 17th of November?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. The answer is?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did you spend the whole of the 18th in the hospital from dawn till
1 dusk, as it were?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Was there absolute peace at this time? And was the hospital a
4 safe place for all these citizens to go to and feel safe? Or rather, in
5 order to avoid the use of the word "safe," let me try and say that they
6 could feel secure.
7 A. I think that's what they came there for, yes.
8 Q. Does that mean that nothing was happening any longer in terms of
9 shelling or bombing and that's why they felt secure?
10 A. There was certainly no shelling on the 18th.
11 Q. Does that mean that in your words we can be entirely certain that
12 at 8.00 in the morning, at 10.00 in the morning, at 3.00 in the afternoon
13 the hospital was not being shelled or bombed? I'm talking about the 18th
14 of November. We can be absolutely positive about that, can't we?
15 A. Yes, unless I'm mistaken.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please show the witness the
18 following document on the screen, it's Exhibit 34.
19 Your Honours, I see we're having a bit of difficulty with the
20 technology, and the witness has virtually answered all of these questions.
21 And I will withdraw this evidence. The Defence were merely trying to make
22 a point by using this document, but I think the point's already been made,
23 and there is no reason to use the document now.
24 I would like to ask my next question, if the Court permits me, to
25 skip over the line of questioning that I had proposed.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, move on.
2 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 Q. You mentioned a JNA soldier named Sasa. I believe you mentioned
4 him yesterday in your testimony.
5 A. No, you were the one who mentioned him, not me.
6 Q. But were you asked about the JNA soldier named Sasa Jolic
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. So you were the one who mentioned him yesterday, not me, because
10 I wasn't the one asking the questions yesterday. Isn't that correct?
11 A. Yes, I apologise. I was referring to your colleague.
12 Q. Thank you. Where was he exactly inside the hospital? Was he in
13 the atomic shelter, where most of the patients were, in one of the
14 corridors or in one of the rooms that were not inside the atomic shelter?
15 A. To the best of my knowledge, he was not in the atomic shelter. He
16 was in other rooms, just like all the other patients were once we had run
17 out of room inside the atomic shelter.
18 Q. Are we talking about the ward where the mentally ill were treated?
19 A. That's not what my information indicates.
20 Q. Did the hospital have a ward of that description?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Were those patients the last to be evacuated into the atomic
23 shelter, the last of all your patients? Is my information on this
25 A. I can't say because I was not working in that ward.
1 Q. Thank you. Do you know where the paramilitary ZNG members were
2 most often brought into your hospital from? Because you did say yourself
3 after all that you were there several times when they were brought in.
4 Did you ever ask where they had been brought in from?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Thank you. Since most patients were of Croat ethnicity, I think
7 we agree on this, during the war and the war operations, where were Serbs
8 being treated?
9 A. I have no idea where you got the information that most were
10 Croats, because as far as I know both Serbs and Croats came. No
11 distinction was made based on people's ethnicities.
12 Q. The Defence is using evidence presented in this trial, and
13 witnesses who came before you testified about precisely this information,
14 that after May 1991 Serb patients stopped coming to the Vukovar Hospital.
15 However, since you seem to be challenging that, would you please then be
16 so kind as to give us the exact percentages of Croat patients and Serb
17 patients respectively, or are you not able to say that?
18 A. I'm not able to give you that sort of information.
19 Q. When was this soldier, Sasa Jolic, brought into the hospital?
20 A. I think it was in November, but I'm not sure.
21 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us if this was a JNA soldier who had been
22 captured or how did he get to the hospital?
23 A. I can't answer that question accurately either, I'm afraid.
24 Q. Can you tell us, please, why does this seem to be a soldier that
25 you all know about? Would that perhaps imply that there were so few of
1 them or just those three who you treated?
2 A. It's not just because there were so few of them. They were, after
3 all, JNA members, and yet they were received by the hospital and admitted
4 just like all the other wounded who came in.
5 Q. Sasa Jolic as a JNA soldier, was he perhaps being held hostage in
6 the hospital because of the observers who were supposed to arrive in the
8 A. I don't think I can answer that question.
9 Q. Thank you. The atomic shelter at Borovo Komerc, who was it used
11 A. I was never in that shelter, but according to my information it
12 was used to accommodate wounded persons, but it was used by people over in
13 Borovo and the surrounding neighbourhoods.
14 Q. Can you explain to the Court, please, despite the efforts that you
15 were making, I fail to understand why people were arriving in the hospital
16 on the 17th and the 18th.
17 A. I'm not sure what's so questionable about that. Many parts of
18 town had been destroyed. People were spontaneously moving towards a place
19 which they felt was still safe.
20 Q. Why would that place be seen as safe, if, as you said, the
21 hospital had been shelled continuously? Why did these people then believe
22 it would be a safe place to go?
23 A. I think it's something that people tend to feel in situations like
25 Q. Would you perhaps agree with me if I told you that this was in
1 fact a movement which was thoroughly organised by the hospital on the one
2 hand and members of the ZNG on the other?
3 A. I could accept the position that it was well organised as a
4 medical institution. But if you're implying anything else, no, I can't
5 accept anything else.
6 Q. Let us try to remind ourselves of the testimony you gave
7 yesterday. I will ask you a couple of questions about that. You said you
8 came to the hospital which you believed to be a safe place because your
9 house had suffered a direct hit, was hit by a shell?
10 A. Yes, you could say that.
11 Q. How could -- could you then explain the circumstance that your
12 parents decided to stay in that very house if it had indeed been bombed
13 and shelled and destroyed, if what you told us yesterday is true?
14 A. Let's be perfectly accurate about this. I said the house had been
15 hit once. I believe this is accurate. You can go back to my statement to
16 verify that bit of information. I do have to say that my parents did
17 indeed stay behind, and they stayed until the very end. This is a
18 peculiar thing about old people in general. They're stubborn and they
19 refuse to accept anything you tell them.
20 Q. Thank you for this answer. Does that mean that the house was
21 never shelled again after that?
22 A. No. It was only later that it was really shelled and destroyed.
23 Q. Please don't get me wrong, I hate to be asking questions about
24 personal things. But how could they stay there?
25 A. I'm not getting you wrong, but believe me I don't understand this
1 myself. And if I may be allowed to, to just add something.
2 Q. Please go ahead.
6 Q. Very well.
7 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Agha.
8 MR. AGHA: Are we in private session at the moment, Your Honour?
9 JUDGE PARKER: No.
10 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] I don't think this requires private
17 MR. AGHA: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] I agree. If I agree, does that mean
19 that it's been redacted?
20 JUDGE PARKER: It will be redacted when I sign a piece of paper,
21 and at the break the technicians delete that section from the tape before
22 the outside broadcast goes out. There's always a half-hour delay on the
23 outside broadcasts, you see.
24 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. You are
25 really, really helping us along in this trial.
1 Q. My next question, something I've broached already. You said your
2 husband stayed behind in Vinkovci to fight because he was unable to reach
3 Vukovar. This being the month of September, if I tell you that Dr. Vesna
4 Bosanac testified she still could drive to Vinkovci on a number of
5 occasions in November, is that something that you can comment on as true,
6 or would you say it was true that your husband was unable to reach
7 Vukovar, or was it perhaps the case that his military assignment was in
9 A. I'll be quite specific in my answer to this question. My husband
10 did not join in September. If you know about the fact that he went to
11 Germany, then you should know that it was -- wasn't possible for him to be
12 there in September. It was on the in late October or November, but not
14 Q. I thank you for this piece of information. This is the most
15 recent version, I must say, because in your statement to the investigators
16 it says that he left for Germany on the 23rd of September, but it states
17 nothing about when he came back. And this is, after all, your husband.
18 If indeed he came back in November, when was it, if you were not in touch
19 and if he never came to see you. How do you know that?
20 A. I still stand by my previous testimony that he never visited me.
21 But it was only after we had left, and I was not in touch with him at the
22 time. I can only tell you that I found out about this based on what I
23 learned from him later on.
24 Q. Well, it's your husband. You've answered all these questions that
25 were intriguing us about your life. When did he then join the ZNG, this
1 paramilitary formation? So it must have been either October or November?
2 This is your husband I'm talking about.
3 A. In order to get a perfectly accurate answer, perhaps you should go
4 to him and ask him, not me.
5 Q. Thank you. As, unfortunately, I don't have that opportunity I
6 thought it might be a good idea to take advantage of you being here
7 testifying. I thought I would have been better off perhaps talking to you
8 rather than your husband. Thank you.
9 Your statement was shown to you by my colleague from the OTP and
10 my colleague Vasic. They were asking you questions about this statement.
11 You stated as follows, if I may be allowed to refresh your memory. This
12 is page 3. The OTP can follow. Paragraph 4, it says: "My estimate was
13 that there were at least 1.000 people at the hospital" --
14 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Agha.
15 MR. AGHA: Yes, Your Honours. I apologise for cutting in. It's
16 just that I'm not aware that the OTP actually did show the witness her
17 statement here during her testimony at all. Mr. Vasic may have done; I'm
18 not sure about that. So perhaps if my learned friend could be a little
19 bit more precise on those issues.
20 JUDGE PARKER: I think, Mr. Borovic, there was an attempt to do it
21 and it wasn't successful. The Chamber was difficult.
22 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do not wish to oppose
23 the Chamber, nor will I do so in the future, but I have to oppose my
24 learned friend. I said as she was being taken through the statement
25 provided to the investigators; I never said it was actually shown. But
1 she was being taken by hand, as it were, through the statement,
2 metaphorically speaking. However, if that's necessary, I can avoid being
3 that specific and go back to the text in front of me.
4 Q. Did you state to the investigators that many of the soldiers
5 fighting in other parts of town were withdrawing to the hospital as each
6 of the neighbourhoods fell? Is this something you stated?
7 A. I placed an objection on that.
8 Q. Just a minute, please. Did you state that or did you not?
9 A. I stated that I had heard about this.
10 Q. Now my next question. You did not add anything to this passage,
11 but to the next part when you said that you later heard that they changed
12 clothes, took off their uniforms, put aside their weapons, put on bandages
13 and plaster casts, but you did not correct the part that I have just read
14 out to you. That's why I'm asking you, do you still abide by this. You
15 said that you heard later that they changed clothes and so on?
16 A. I will, if I may, say the same about this part. If I was inside
17 physically, I could only hear this.
18 Q. This would be a new addendum to the statement you gave the
19 investigators in 1995 and the other day because you had nothing to add to
20 this part then. You're only changing this part of the statement now,
21 during this cross-examination. Is that right?
22 A. I wouldn't say I was changing it, only that I was adding to it.
23 Q. Thank you. While the meeting was going on in the plaster room,
24 which you described, you said you saw your patients being taken away
25 without an escort. The question is: The patients, your patients, who had
1 the injuries that you registered, did they need a special medical escort?
2 A. Under those conditions, my position is that they did need medical
3 attendants, that they had to be escorted by medical staff.
4 Q. Even the policemen, whose name I won't mention, who had problems
5 with his ears?
6 A. It's my medical supervision of him.
7 Q. Thank you. Can we agree --
8 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] And before I put my next question, I
9 ask that we go into private session.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
11 [Private session]
11 Page 1468 redacted. Private session.
7 [Open session]
8 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] I think I have very few questions
9 left, which is why I think I can finish in five minutes, if that's
11 JUDGE PARKER: We'll sit on, Mr. Borovic. Thank you for that.
12 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, thank you.
13 Q. In June were you in the hospital in 1991?
14 A. Yes, I was.
15 Q. At that time were sandbags placed around the hospital?
16 A. It wasn't necessary in June, if I'm not wrong.
17 Q. And when did this need arise, to put sandbags around the hospital,
18 in what month?
19 A. In September.
20 Q. Who did this? Was it you, medical staff -- I apologise to Their
21 Honours. Was this done by doctors or other people?
22 A. Well, it's not usual for doctors to do this.
23 Q. Well, who was it who put sandbags around the hospital for the
24 protection of the hospital of course? Was it policemen, soldiers, or
25 other people in the hospital?
1 A. As far as I know, it was the technical staff.
2 Q. Thank you. If I say to you that I read a book by Dr. Njavro, have
3 you done the same? It's a book about Vukovar.
4 A. What do you mean did I do the same?
5 Q. Did you read Dr. Njavro's book? He worked in the hospital in
6 Vukovar, and the book is about the events in the Vukovar Hospital in 1991?
7 A. No, I haven't read the whole book.
8 Q. You haven't read the whole book?
9 A. No, I haven't read it.
10 Q. You haven't read the whole book, or you haven't read the book at
12 A. I haven't read the book at all, just the title.
13 Q. So what did you mean when you said "I didn't read the whole"?
14 A. I saw just the title and the introduction.
15 Q. If, as Defence counsel, I tell you that in this book Dr. Njavro,
16 who dealt exhaustively with information about the Vukovar Hospital, stated
17 that 80 patients died during those three months out of 2.000 treated, can
18 you tell us that he provided erroneous information or was the information
20 A. I don't know that because this is not in accordance with what we
21 heard, but I cannot comment on this.
22 Q. Can you comment on the information provided to the public by
23 Dr. Njavro, that on that occasion 600 members of the ZNG and policemen
24 were killed in Vukovar and 6 to 8.000 members of the JNA, according to the
25 information he collected. Can you comment on this?
1 A. No, I can't.
2 Q. As I promised the Court, and you answered just as the Defence
3 wished, I would like to thank you. I have no further questions.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Borovic.
5 We'll have the second break now and resume at 10 minutes to 1.00.
6 --- Recess taken at 12.23 p.m.
7 --- On resuming at 12.55 p.m.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic -- oh, Mr. Agha, sorry.
9 MR. AGHA: Your Honours, if I may. The next witness has actually
10 been waiting since morning, and I believe my learned friend may take some
11 time in cross-examination. So I'm wondering if it's possible that he may
12 be released for today, especially as I understand it takes ten or so
13 minutes to disband protective measures, which the next witness does in
14 fact not have.
15 JUDGE PARKER: You're encouraging us to waste time again,
16 Mr. Agha. Yes, the next witness will not be required before tomorrow.
17 MR. AGHA: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic -- oh, Mr. Borovic.
19 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour. But I did
20 look through the transcript, as I promised, as regards the question about
21 the 28th of October in connection with a question I put to Dr. Vesna
22 Bosanac. Page 24, could -- pages 20 to 21. The answer was that only one
23 person was killed by a phosphorous bomb -- was injured by a phosphorous
25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's apology.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Borovic. I'm sorry, but I had not
2 correctly remembered.
3 Yes, Mr. Lukic.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.
5 Cross-examined by Mr. Lukic:
6 Q. Good day, Madam. My name is Novak Lukic, attorney-at-law, and I
7 will put questions to you on behalf of the Defence team for
8 Mr. Sljivancanin. My colleagues, who put questions before me, have
9 already exhausted many of the topics. So I will try to contribute to the
10 expeditiousness of these proceedings, but I may go back to some topics
11 that have already been dealt with by my colleagues.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] To begin with, I would like to briefly
13 show the witness the photograph from exhibit 0053-1257, page 6 very
14 briefly. It will appear on the screen. It will be a photograph.
15 Q. Madam, do you recognise something in this photograph?
16 A. Yes. These are the hospital buildings, if I'm right.
17 Q. Tell me, to the best of your recollection when did the new
18 building begin functioning? I'm in the pre-war period.
19 A. I think it was some ten or 15 years before.
20 Q. The then-building of the new hospital, that's what it was often
21 referred to, the new and the old hospital, in 1991 was this building fully
22 operational and fully equipped?
23 A. You mean the building of the new part of the hospital? As far as
24 I know, yes.
25 Q. When -- I have learned that the top floor was not fully
1 operational in 1991. Am I right?
2 A. Are you referring to the attic or to the second floor?
3 Q. I only read in some witness statements that the top floor of the
4 building was waiting for a license to operate, but whether it was the
5 second floor or whether it was the attic part, I don't know. But was
6 there any part of the building that was at the top and that was not
8 A. I think this may refer to the attic which still had to be put in
9 order, but I don't know if we are referring to the same thing.
10 Q. At any rate, it seems that in 1991 in terms of its size, did this
11 building look as it appears on this photograph or not?
12 A. Yes. The size of the hospital was the same.
13 Q. All right. We will not be needing this photograph any longer.
14 When giving testimony before this Court, you said that the
15 Yugoslav People's Army was the aggressor's army. And according to you,
16 there was no reason for them to attack, and there was no reason for you to
17 defend yourself from anything or anyone because prior to that you led a
18 normal life in Vukovar?
19 A. Yes, that's my opinion.
20 Q. That's how I understood it.
21 In your opinion, after the change of authorities in Croatia, did
22 all of the citizens of Vukovar lead a normal life?
23 A. I have no information indicating otherwise. If I may clarify. In
24 the street where I grew up and where I lived, a street that had residents
25 of mixed origin, there were absolutely no changes in our way of life.
1 Q. Were you not concerned at the time by stories that explosive was
2 planted in certain facilities and that the people were disappearing?
3 A. As a person, one certainly feels uncomfortable upon hearing that,
5 Q. Were you not concerned by stories that people were leaving their
7 A. I wouldn't say concerned. The better term perhaps would be
9 Q. Were you perhaps concerned or surprised by roadblocks which were
10 manned by armed ZNG members, and one had to pass through those roadblocks?
11 A. As I pointed out, there were none in my part of the town, in the
12 centre of the town.
13 Q. I linked that to the instance where you were leaving Vukovar, as
14 you described to us and as you said to Mr. Vasic. When you had to pass
15 through the roadblock when leaving Vukovar, you, as a citizen, were you
16 concerned upon seeing something like that?
17 A. One definitely feels uncomfortable.
18 Q. This is something that prompted me to proceed with the following
19 line of questioning. It has to do with the uniforms. Do you remember
20 whether the people manning the roadblocks had any uniforms; and if so,
21 which type?
22 A. I can say that there were both civilians there and people wearing
23 camouflage uniforms.
24 Q. You said that you lived in the street whose residents were of
25 mixed ethnic origin. I assume you socialised with your neighbours at the
2 A. Absolutely, yes.
3 Q. Did your Serb neighbours tell you whether they trusted these
4 roadblocks upon coming across them? Did they tell you anything about
5 those roadblocks?
6 A. I keep reiterating that there were no roadblocks in that part of
7 the town. Naturally, we talked, we communicated, amongst us. But in that
8 part of the town, we had no such unpleasant experiences, nothing that
9 would give rise to these unpleasant feelings.
10 Q. I think you are trying to evade giving me an answer. In general
11 terms, were Serb neighbours concerned about roadblocks existing throughout
12 Vukovar and outside of Vukovar? And to play up what my colleague asked
13 you, did you hear of your neighbours -- from your neighbours that they
14 were concerned about these permits that one needed in order to leave town?
15 A. Did I hear that from my neighbours? No.
16 Q. Did you hear stories that entire families started leaving Vukovar
17 in the course of the summer, regardless of their ethnic background?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did this give you an unpleasant feeling or did you still continue
20 to believe that everything was normal?
21 A. I said that there was an uncomfortable feeling as such, it
23 Q. Therefore, you will agree that, after all, the life in Vukovar in
24 the last few months, or rather, in the spring and summer of 1991 was not
25 quite normal?
1 A. I wouldn't say during the spring. It applied more to the
3 Q. In order to follow up to what you stated yesterday, you said that
4 in your view after the incident in Borovo Selo, the conflict didn't
5 escalate until August. Is that right?
6 A. Yes, something to that effect. Yes.
7 Q. I think that yesterday when answering my colleague Vasic's
8 question you said that you didn't know that the barracks in Vukovar was
9 blocked and cut off. And then when answering the questions of
10 Mr. Borovic, you said you had no reason to venture into that part of the
11 town. Is that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. In those early months, June, July, and even beginning of August,
14 did you hear -- did you see the JNA soldiers walking about town,
15 frequenting cafes, going there with their girlfriends? Do you remember
16 seeing something like that?
17 A. I remember seeing them in the post office when I went there. I
18 can't be very specific, but it was sometime in June or July.
19 Q. Did you see them in the post office in early August? Am I going
20 into too many details? I'm asking you this because I want to refresh your
21 memory and remind you of the fact that in the summer-time the barracks had
22 already been cut off, placed under siege, and soldiers were unable to
23 leave the barracks.
24 A. That's why I said that I believed it to be in June or July. I
25 didn't specify more closely the exact period of time.
1 Q. Did you hear perhaps during July or August the stories that the
2 soldiers were freely able to leave town and go home, just as you were able
3 to go and take your children out of town?
4 A. I don't know about that. I don't know about anybody asking that.
5 I have no such personal knowledge.
6 Q. I assume that at the time you as well as all other citizens of
7 Yugoslavia closely followed the reports on television and in the press.
8 I'm now referring to the summer months of 1991.
9 A. Mostly.
10 Q. Would you say I was mistaken if I said that at the time the media
11 reported that it was the policy of the Croatian leadership to place the
12 barracks under siege and to hold the JNA personnel hostages? Did you hear
13 such stories?
14 A. I can neither confirm nor deny.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we briefly go into private
16 session, Your Honours?
17 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
18 [Private session]
11 Page 1478 redacted. Private session.
4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Yesterday when you gave evidence in examination-in-chief, we heard
8 you say that according to what you knew corpses in the last days had been
9 taken to the harbour -- harbour office. Now, tell us this, please: Did
10 this pertain to those who died in the hospital or those who died elsewhere
11 and were transported to the hospital?
12 A. I think both.
13 Q. Do you know what the procedure was in the hospital when a body of
14 a dead person would be brought to the hospital? Were any records kept?
15 Were any official records compiled where, you know, certain information
16 would be entered about the post mortem, any details about the dead person,
17 and so on?
18 A. As far as I know, prior to all these events the regular procedure,
19 if somebody died, was to perform an autopsy and to establish the cause of
20 death. However, under these circumstances I think it was not done,
21 although I have to say that I'm not fully certain about this.
22 Q. Could you tell us who would be able to give us such information.
23 Do you think Dr. Njavro knows more about this?
24 A. I think so.
25 Q. One more question on this issue. In your view, how far this
1 harbour office is from the hospital?
2 A. If I'm not mistaken, 500 metres roughly. But don't consider this
3 to be absolutely accurate.
4 Q. All right. I'll leave this, then, for some other witnesses. I
5 have another question of this nature. Previous witnesses gave us their
6 assessment of distance, but we never put the following question to any of
7 the previous witnesses. How far is the bridge over the Vuka River from
8 the hospital?
9 A. If my estimate is accurate, and I can't say that I'm an expert in
10 estimating, then perhaps a kilometre or around -- thereabout. I'm not
11 quite sure.
12 Q. All right. We'll turn to another topic. Can we agree that there
13 were no new patients in the hospital after the 18th? I think you stated
14 that in your previous statements.
15 A. I think that's correct. Now -- at least based on the information
16 that I have.
17 Q. You stated yesterday also that, in your view, about 1.000
18 civilians came to the hospital. You even believed that everybody who
19 remained in Vukovar came to the hospital. Do you remember saying that
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. In your opinion, did they also come there to await the evacuation
23 that was expected?
24 A. I think that one could interpret it in that way.
25 Q. Did you personally see these civilians arriving in the hospital?
1 Did you go through the areas where they were assembled?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. In view of your occupation, and I'm not going to specify it, did
4 you approval what was happening, namely that civilians were coming to the
5 hospital and mixing with the patients?
6 A. In view of that specific situation, I thought that was logical.
7 Q. Based on your testimony, I understood that on the 19th of
8 November, the situation in the hospital was quite chaotic. Everybody felt
9 uncertainty about the upcoming evacuation. Did I understand you well?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Would you agree with me if I said that this chaotic situation
12 would not have existed had there been only those in the hospital who were
13 supposed to be there, namely medical staff, the wounded, patients, and so
15 A. This question calls for a very broad answer.
16 Q. I would kindly ask you to provide a brief answer, and if the
17 Prosecution wants to go further into this they will give you an
18 opportunity to elaborate.
19 My question is: Was the chaotic situation in the hospital a
20 result of the fact that there were many people there who were not supposed
21 to be there on the 19th?
22 A. I think that that was not the only reason.
23 Q. What were other reasons?
24 A. Generally speaking, we didn't know what was going on. Therefore,
25 all of us were distressed.
1 Q. You were expecting the arrival of the International Red Cross
2 based on the information you received about the evacuation?
3 A. Yes, that's what we were expecting at the time.
4 Q. In those last days, your patients from your ward, did they stay
5 together with all the other patients in some common area or were they
6 staying separately in a separate area?
7 A. They were in different places throughout the hospital.
8 Q. So everybody was mixed. They -- the patients were not classified
9 and placed in various wards?
10 A. No.
11 Q. From this distance, would you be able to tell us what was the
12 influx in your ward in the last ten days of your stay in Vukovar? Let's
13 say from the 5th or 10th of November, what was the daily number of newly
14 admitted patients?
15 A. As -- at that point in time, we did not have strictly separated
16 wards any longer. My answer would be four or five or six persons. The
17 patients were not physically divided into separate wards.
18 Q. Do you remember that anybody was discharged at the time from the
19 hospital, from the ward? Were there people who no longer required any
21 A. If my memory serves me right, I think that there were one or two
22 people who required minor interventions. I don't have information about
23 their discharge. It's just that I didn't see them anymore. Now, I don't
24 know whether they were actually officially discharged.
25 Q. But you should know that, given that they are under your
1 professional supervision?
2 A. I personally didn't discharge them, but that doesn't mean that
3 some of my other colleagues didn't discharge them from their wards, from
4 their care.
5 Q. If another colleague of yours discharged them, I assume they were
6 supposed to inform you, since they were also under your care?
7 A. No, they had no such duty to inform me.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we go briefly into private
9 session, please?
10 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
11 [Private session]
1 [Open session]
2 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honour.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. When you received information that there should be evacuation and
5 you described this to us, how did you - and I don't mean just you
6 personally but everybody else under your care - prepare for the
8 A. From the medical point of view, one had to revisit all aspects of
9 the treatment. One had to put new bandages, give new instructions, tell
10 them what it meant, how they should act. I gave them medication that they
11 should have on them so that I wouldn't have to think about that any
12 longer. Anyway, one had to go from one patient to the next, give them all
13 the necessary information, and also re-examine them from the medical point
14 of view.
15 Q. That's what I was interested in. Was the appropriate medical
16 documentation prepared for each patient, the documentation that should
17 have accompanied these patients? Do you remember this?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Do you remember that patients were supposed to be classified based
20 on whether they were able to move, whether they could sit, or just lie in
22 A. This is really a typical procedure, so I don't consider it
24 Q. Did you have to classify patients based on those who were able to
25 move and those who had to be transported in beds?
1 A. Yes, that's how it was supposed to be.
2 Q. Do you remember whether in your group or in your ward you had any
3 patients unable to move?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Were there injuries specific to your particular area of expertise,
7 A. Not only mine but also surgical.
8 Q. Yesterday when asked by the Prosecution, or perhaps by Mr. Vasic,
9 you mentioned temperature charts. Can you tell us what this is and
10 whether this is the document that reflects the medical history of the
11 patient. I have to say that I know nothing about that.
12 A. It's a temperature chart, a document, which is placed on the
13 patient's bed. It contains first name, last name, type of illness, as
14 well as therapy and the way therapy is administered, patient's temperature
15 is recorded on a daily basis.
16 Q. Is this document updated daily?
17 A. That's the way it should be, if you have the time.
18 Q. My understanding is that therapy is reflected in the chart, too,
19 daily therapy, and the patient's temperature.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Thank you. What about the room where you spent the last few days?
22 Were you able to clearly hear explosions and shells falling and exploding
23 from there?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. I believe you stated in answer to a question by my learned friend,
1 Mr. Borovic, that there was no shooting on the 18th or from the 18th on.
2 Do you perhaps remember this, I want to know about the 18th and
3 particularly about the 19th, did you hear individual shots or explosions
4 being fired?
5 A. Maybe sporadic or individual, but no artillery firing, if I'm not
6 mistaken. But, please, one thing you have to keep in mind is --
7 Q. Well, it's not a trick question, if that's what you mean. I'm
8 asking you about individual shots. Please tell me, who is Zeljka
9 Zgonjanin? I believe you answered this one. Do you know what
10 specifically she did at the hospital?
11 A. I'm familiar with the name and surname. I know she was there, but
12 I can't tell you what specifically she did or what specifically her tasks
14 Q. What about the name Sadika Bilus, does that ring a bell?
15 A. Yes, that's one of your doctors.
16 Q. Which ward? What was her field?
17 A. She was an internist.
18 Q. Do you know her husband Davor?
19 A. No, not personally.
20 Q. Did you hear if he was ever at the hospital throughout those
21 months? Is this something you're familiar with?
22 A. No, I'm not familiar with that.
23 Q. I heard that Director Bosanac asked you personally to go back to
24 the hospital because the hospital needed you. Is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Did you hear from your colleagues, from your Serb colleagues who
2 were leaving the hospital at the time, that she had asked them the same
4 A. I never talked to them about it.
5 Q. A while ago I asked you about preparations for evacuation, and you
6 said -- or rather, you said that yesterday, that the medical staff had the
7 task of monitoring the wounded during evacuation. You said so yesterday,
8 and you confirm that now, don't you?
9 A. Yes, I do.
10 Q. Was this something that you considered a rule for any evacuation
11 or was this information that you were given as in, this is how it should
13 A. I considered that to be a rule.
14 Q. Were any of the medical staff escorting the wounded who were
15 evacuated on the 18th of October, medical staff from the hospital? Do you
16 know that?
17 A. Yes. According to my information, there was several nurses
18 accompanying them.
19 Q. Did they ever return?
20 A. No.
21 Q. We heard this from other witnesses. Are you familiar with such a
22 concept as working group for evacuation? Did you hear that a group was
23 organised in the hospital, people who were supposed to help with moving
24 things and moving the wounded along?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Did you know that on the 20th, on the morning of the 20th, the
2 help workers of the hospital were supposed to be wearing white coats?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Did you know at all that there were help workers at the hospital
5 who were volunteering?
6 A. Yes, I do know that.
7 Q. The late husband of Binazija Kolesar, Mihajl, whom you knew stated
8 to the OTP in a statement that he gave while he was still alive that
9 Dr. Bosanac gave orders for help workers to put on white coats on that
10 day. What is your comment on that?
11 A. That's his statement, that's what he stated, but it's not
12 something that I can say.
13 Q. Let's go back to the 20th of November. You said that on the
14 morning of the 20th a gentleman came to see you, as you said quite
15 literally, and he was accompanied by Ms. Kolesar. However, in a previous
16 statement you were more specific about the position of that particular
17 gentleman. Based on your conversation, or perhaps on a gesture that this
18 person made, or the way the person behaved, was there anything that led
19 you to conclude what this person's position or occupation was?
20 A. If I remember our conversation correctly, it's very difficult to
21 repeat the whole conversation verbatim, it has been a long time after all,
22 but I don't think I'll be wrong if I say that he addressed me
23 as "colleague."
24 Q. This is literally what you said the last time around when you
25 testified here, and that's why I wanted you to be more specific now. So
1 your impression based on how he addressed you was that this gentleman was
2 a doctor, wasn't it?
3 A. Yes, that's right. But sometimes when addressing other people ...
4 Q. Can I ask you now about the meeting in the plaster room. Who told
5 you to go to that meeting?
6 A. Nurse Binazija at the very moment when we were having that
7 conversation and she was just outside my office.
8 Q. You told us that in your estimate the meeting took between half an
9 hour and 45 minutes. You also said that you were standing near the door
10 and you described how you left the room and went into the corridor
11 outside. Do you remember if at the time you arrived the meeting had
12 already begun or did you have to wait for the meeting to begin once you
13 had arrived?
14 A. I think the meeting was just beginning.
15 Q. Do you remember whether Mr. Sljivancanin was there when you
16 entered the room?
17 A. Yes, he was.
18 Q. How much time elapsed between the time Mrs. Binazija told you to
19 go and -- or rather, did you go right away to the meeting or did you go a
20 while later? I know it's been a long time, but can you please try to
21 remember that.
22 A. It's very difficult to be perfectly specific about the -- about
23 time, whether it's 15 or 20 minutes. I really can't be certain.
24 Q. But this is quite sufficient for my purposes. It's a sufficient
25 degree of precision for my purposes.
1 Do you remember whether at the meeting there was another person
2 there with Mr. Sljivancanin, somebody who was not part of your hospital
3 team, so to speak?
4 A. Yes. There was another gentleman standing next to him.
5 Q. Not the same man you had seen previously while you were with
6 Mrs. Binazija, was it?
7 A. I didn't look him in the face, and I find it very hard to say
8 whether it was or not. This is something that I don't remember at all. I
9 have no recollection of that.
10 Q. But do you remember whether this man ever spoke to you during the
12 A. I can't remember.
13 Q. I'll try to refresh your memory then. I will tell you what
14 Mrs. Binazija Kolesar said in her testimony before this Tribunal. She
15 said when she came to the meeting this man was the first to speak and
16 Mr. Sljivancanin only spoke after him. Does that perhaps refresh your
17 recollection? Was she at the meeting at the same time as you to begin
19 A. As I said, I wasn't listening all the time at that meeting. I
20 said that clearly in my statement, and I stand by that.
21 Q. I am trying to keep that in mind. I'm just trying to refresh your
22 memory, but you can't rule out the possibility that this man also spoke at
23 that meeting?
24 A. No, I can't rule that out.
25 Q. Was Mrs. Bosanac at the meeting at any point in time?
1 A. Not as far as I can remember.
2 Q. What about Dr. Njavro?
3 A. No.
4 Q. You don't remember or you don't remember seeing him?
5 A. I do remember that I did not see him, but it was quite crowded.
6 Q. Does the name driver Zdenko Ragac mean anything to you?
7 A. No.
8 Q. During that conversation, did you or any of your colleagues tell
9 Mr. Sljivancanin what you had been doing up to that point? We'll not go
10 into that again. I'm interested in those two bits of information that you
11 gave to the Tribunal. Did you mention that to Mr. Sljivancanin?
12 A. I didn't, as for myself.
13 Q. Did any of your colleagues perhaps mention that to
14 Mr. Sljivancanin during that conversation? Did you perhaps hear that?
15 A. No, I didn't.
16 Q. Did you share with your colleagues what you had been doing up to
17 that point?
18 A. No, never.
19 Q. After that you met Dr. Ivankovic. You described to us what you
20 heard, what Mr. Sljivancanin said when he said that you would be allowed
21 to stay at the hospital, that you could choose to go to Croatia or to
22 Serbia. Yesterday when you testified in chief you told us why you remained
23 in Vukovar. But why did you not remain in Vukovar at this point in time
24 when you were directly offered to stay on and work at the hospital?
25 A. The only thing that occurred to me after everything that had
1 happened was to be reunited with my family. So that was the first thing
2 that I wanted.
3 Q. You described the moment when you saw patients being led away down
4 the corridor. You even emerged in the corridor at that time. Is that
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. On that occasion were only patients leaving the hospital? What
8 about the rest of the medical staff? And were there any civilians in the
9 hospital at this point in time?
10 A. Can you please repeat the question. I really didn't understand
12 Q. You described that at one point in time you saw patients being led
13 away past the emergency ward down that exit, down that corridor. Were
14 these only patients or were civilians coming out at the same time?
15 A. I only noticed patients.
16 Q. When, roughly speaking, did you emerge in the courtyard outside
17 the emergency ward in order to await evacuation on those buses?
18 A. I think it might have been around 10.00.
19 Q. How long were you standing there, roughly speaking, before you
20 boarded the buses?
21 A. I think between one and two hours.
22 Q. Did you perhaps at this point see any of the international staff,
23 European monitors, International Red Cross, somebody carrying a camera out
24 there in the courtyard?
25 A. I didn't see anything like that from the spot where I was
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have about five minutes
3 left. I'm not sure what my learned friend from the OTP intends as far as
4 re-examination is concerned. If he has no re-examination, maybe we could
5 finish the witness now so that she doesn't have to stay for another day.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Unfortunately, Mr. Lukic, another case is listed to
7 continue; that's why we must clear this courtroom at this time. So I must
8 ask you to finish tomorrow morning.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I can no longer promise that it will
10 only be five minutes in that case.
11 JUDGE PARKER: I'm well aware. I was counsel for 34 years; I know
12 how overnight refreshes one.
13 We will adjourn now and we will resume tomorrow at 9.00 in the
15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,
16 to be reconvened on Friday, the 11th day of
17 November, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.