1 Tuesday, 24 January 2006
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.23 p.m.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. van Lynden, if I could remind you of the
7 affirmation you made at the beginning of your evidence which still
9 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Mrs. Tapuskovic.
11 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.
12 Good afternoon to all.
13 WITNESS: AERNOUT VAN LYNDEN [Resumed]
14 Cross-examined by Ms. Tapuskovic:
15 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. van Lynden, good afternoon to you, sir. My
16 name is Mira Tapuskovic. I am one of Miroslav Radic's counsel. In order
17 for me to further familiarise myself with the role of your testimony here,
18 can you please confirm that you have already testified in this Tribunal in
19 other cases.
20 A. I have.
21 Q. As far as I know, this occurred in the Galic case and the
22 Milosevic case as well. Would that be a fair assessment?
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. Thank you. Mr. van Lynden, do you remember when, precisely, you
25 testified in those cases?
1 A. With Mr. Milosevic it was in the autumn of 2003, and with
2 Mr. Galic, either in early 2003 or in 2002. I think in 2003 as well.
3 Q. You testified in the Galic case in January 2002. Your testimony
4 was extensive in both cases. Each time you took several days. Do you
5 remember that?
6 A. I remember my testimony in the Galic case being longer than in the
7 Milosevic case because my testimony in the Galic case was handed, in
8 written form, in to the proceedings in the Milosevic case, and therefore
9 the Milosevic case was shorter.
10 Q. You talked to the investigators of the ICTY twice -- or rather,
11 the Defence are in possession of two of your statements indicating that
12 the interviews unfolded over several days. Can you please tell us where
13 the conversations or interviews took place.
14 A. The first time I was interviewed was in Vienna in 2000 or the
15 beginning -- the first half of 2001. Later interviews later took place
16 here in The Hague. This is the longer statement which was taken by a
17 Nepalese lawyer, Tejshree Thapa.
18 Q. Thank you, sir. When you testified in the Milosevic case, you
19 said that you teach journalism at the American university in Bulgaria.
20 When you testified in the Galic case, you did not mention this. Would I
21 be right to conclude that you left the practice of active journalism, as
22 it were, between January 2002 and September 2003?
23 A. No. I left active journalism at the beginning of September 2001
24 when my wife was posted as ambassador of the Netherlands to Bulgaria. I
25 was not working at the American university until September 2002. So for a
1 year I didn't work, either in journalism or in academia.
2 Q. Going through your statement, except for the fact that at the
3 beginning of your career you worked for a Dutch paper, which unfortunately
4 I'm unable to pronounce the name of. I seem to have a slight problem
5 pronouncing Dutch names. You also worked for Washington Post, BBC radio,
6 the Observer, and, finally, Sky News. All of your employers with the
7 exception of the Dutch one, the Dutch paper, or rather, those who
8 commissioned your reports and articles were non-Dutch newspaper houses, as
9 it were.
10 A. That's correct. I didn't only work during my time as a journalist
11 for the newspaper of The Hague, the Haagsche Courant, I also worked for a
12 time for Dutch television -- national television news and for one of the
13 Dutch radio stations, the NCOV. This is prior to the war in Yugoslavia,
14 during the 1980s.
15 Q. This is something that you spoke about in the Milosevic case, too.
16 You talked about Baghdad, you talk about Iraq. You said that you were on
17 both sides of the conflict, as it were, Iraq and Iran. Would that seem to
18 be the case?
19 A. In 1980 and in 1984 I went to both Iraq and Iran and covered the
20 war there from both sides, that's correct.
21 Q. Can you agree with me that in order to provide fair and accurate,
22 even-handed reports, if you like, your duty as a journalist would be to
23 put every story into perspective, especially in a wartime situation, to
24 provide information originating from both warring parties or all the
25 warring parties. Would you tend to agree with that?
1 A. I would certainly agree that a journalist should try to put
2 stories into perspective. It is not on the whole possible for a
3 journalists to cover two sides of a war simultaneously. That is simply an
5 Q. While testifying in the Galic case, you said that you were first
6 sent to Slovenia and that you, to all practical intents, were an
7 eye-witness to what we in Yugoslavia usually refer to as the seven-day
8 war. Would that seem be the case?
9 A. I was indeed sent to Slovenia and was an eye-witness to some of
10 the events in Slovenia. I was clearly not everywhere in Slovenia but I
11 was an eye-witness to certain events, yes.
12 Q. Were you in Slovenia throughout the duration of that conflict?
13 A. Yes, I was.
14 Q. You informed the international public about the case when the
15 Slovene Territorial Defence killed 45 young [Realtime transcript read in
16 error "youngian"] JNA soldiers who were holding their hands up in the air
17 as a token of surrender. Do you remember this incident?
18 A. No. I'm not aware of informing the international public of the
19 killing of 45 soldiers.
20 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just for the
21 benefit of the transcript, on page 4, line 15, it should read "45 young
22 JNA soldiers." Thank you.
23 Q. You told us yesterday that Sky News, your employer at the time, if
24 I may use the term since you told us that you worked as a freelance
25 journalist, set up an office in Zagreb or Croatia. Would that be correct?
1 A. I was a full-time staff employee of Sky News from 1988 onwards. I
2 was not a freelance journalist ever during my time at Sky News. As I was
3 not a freelance journalist ever during my time at Sky News. As far as I'm
4 aware Sky News moved a team to Zagreb. I imagined working out of a hotel.
5 I was never part of that team, so I don't know if they actually set up an
6 office the same way as we did do in Belgrade. But I'm aware that teams
7 were sent into Zagreb to cover the war in 1991 from the Croatian side.
8 Q. Thank you. And my apologies for possibly hurting your feelings in
9 any way about your job. Based on the documents that I had occasion to
10 consult, my impression was that you continued to work as a freelancer
11 throughout; however, let us now pick up where we left off. When you said
12 that Sky News worked out of Croatia in a way, were you ever in touch with
13 your counterpart in Sky News on the Croatian side of the border, as it
14 were, and did you discuss anything that was going on in Croatia at the
16 A. I don't remember ever being directly in touch with those working
17 out of Zagreb. We would have possibly passed messages through the foreign
18 desk of Sky News in London, but I don't remember having direct telephone
19 conversations with those working out of Zagreb, no.
20 Q. I'm about to say something that is quite apparent if one considers
21 your testimony. You arrived in Yugoslavia in July, 1991, following a
22 brief break after what had occurred in Slovenia. Is that right?
23 A. I arrived in Slovenia in June 1991 when I imagined, apart from the
24 Slovenes, most Yugoslavs still considered Slovenia to be part of
25 Yugoslavia. From Slovenia I was then -- when after about two weeks in
1 Slovenia, I was then sent to Belgrade.
2 Q. Following your arrival in Belgrade in July, were you stationed in
3 Belgrade throughout or did you, on occasion, leave Belgrade, leave the
4 former Yugoslavia possibly, or did you remain within the borders, as it
5 were, of the former Yugoslavia throughout this period?
6 A. I did leave in August 1991. I believe my original statement
7 actually includes that because I was sent to Beirut, the Lebanese capital,
8 for the release of the hostages that had been held there, some of whom
9 were my personal friends, and I had lived in Lebanon so I was told to
10 cover that. I was aware of a second period which I was away which would
11 have been from the end of October during the first week or ten days of
12 November 1991. And the next time I left was just before Christmas in
13 December 1991.
14 Q. This means that when you covered a war area you did not only cover
15 that area but all the other areas of war and crisis or, in other words,
16 wherever Sky News would send you to. Is that correct?
17 A. Well, the only other -- as I said, the only other place they sent
18 me to which was not -- the war there had finished and the other time I was
19 sent home for a break of ten days to two weeks. I was -- at that time
20 I -- my family was living in Brussels, Belgium.
21 Q. Sir, can you tell me when you first heard about the JNA barracks
22 in Croatian territory being blocked?
23 A. The tactic was first used by the Slovenes and I witnessed that
24 being used there. When I precisely heard the first time that the JNA
25 barracks within Croatia were being blocked, I cannot remember a precise
1 date. But I imagine that the Croats used the similar tactics to the
2 Slovenes at a relatively early date.
3 Q. Can you then please explain what were your activities from July
4 1991 when, as you say, you were stationed in Belgrade to the actual
5 outbreak of the conflict in Vukovar? Where did you spend this period of
7 A. I think, as I said in my testimony to the Court yesterday,
8 initially I was sent to the Banija region and then on to the Krajina and
9 to the town of Knin. I then returned to Belgrade, and from Belgrade at a
10 certain moment left for Beirut and returned towards the end of August or
11 the beginning of September and then started going into Eastern Slavonia,
12 also covering a variety of matters within Belgrade, for instance, the lack
13 of petrol and oil and political situation. And later on in the autumn,
14 apart from going to Eastern Slavonia, we also flew to Montenegro and drove
15 up with the JNA units that attacked Dubrovnik.
16 Q. Throughout your time in Belgrade you had an office, as you said
17 yesterday, an office that had been set up inside the then-Serbian
18 television, state television. Would that be correct?
19 A. That is correct. In -- when Sky News began in February 1989, an
20 agreement was signed between Yugoslav television and Sky News, whereby
21 Yugoslav television had the rights to rebroadcast Sky News for however
22 many hours they wished and for a certain time, I think it was the third
23 channel of state television in Belgrade, would broadcast Sky News 12 hours
24 a day. The other part of the agreement was that Sky News could make use
25 of the facilities of Belgrade television. They helped us during the
1 Romanian revolution in 1979 [sic] and again when I moved to Belgrade in
2 July 1991. We continued to have an office within Belgrade television
3 until December -- the end of December 1991.
4 Q. This office of yours was within the TV Belgrade building or in a
5 different building used by the TV station?
6 A. No. It was inside the TV Belgrade building. It was one room.
7 Q. Thank you. Yesterday you described your movements around Vukovar
8 and specifically the route you took to get to the Vukovar Hospital. About
9 that day when you were moving about Vukovar, was that the only route you
10 took on that day or did you also drive through the suburbs?
11 A. Well, obviously I drove through some suburbs to get to the city
12 centre. I'm not -- are you trying to ask me whether I went to Borovo
13 Naselje as well?
14 Q. No. I am asking you about the city centre, as it were. Did you
15 take any of the side streets or just the one main road?
16 A. No, we would certainly also be in the side streets and I think, as
17 I mentioned in my testimony to the Court yesterday, we drove into town
18 until we found the soldiers of the platoon of the guards with whom we'd
19 been before, and we were with them on foot. So we took various streets in
20 the city centre. But before you start asking me precise questions, may I
21 remind you that this was my first walk in the centre of Vukovar and I had
22 not been to the city before.
23 Q. Thank you for this clarification. The reason I'm asking you about
24 this is back in 2002 you stated to the investigators that you had seen
25 mines laid all over the place, including the centre of town. Do you
1 remember stating that, sir?
2 A. I did see small fields of land-mines of anti-personnel land-mines
3 close to the heart of the city, yes. And this was also I think shown on
4 the footage that was shown to the Court yesterday and of JNA soldiers
5 disposing of these mines by shooting at them. And I was with those
6 soldiers when they did that.
7 Q. Precisely. Thank you for assisting us with this. That was part
8 of the first bit of footage that we saw yesterday, Exhibit 136 I believe.
9 When you were commenting, I mean during the filming and not after the
10 video was shown to you yesterday, you said that the clearing of mines was
11 a very complex and sensitive task. Do you remember that?
12 A. I think what I said was finding them is a sensitive business, that
13 clearing them was done in a rather easier manner, if I remember correctly.
14 Q. That's fine, but you also said that these mines were being cleared
15 by the engineers units of the JNA?
16 A. That was a reference a later piece of footage when in the heart of
17 the city one sees an explosion go off. I'm not sure whether they were
18 exploding mines or other ordnance that they had found in that particular
19 house that we weren't told. But we were told this was an engineering
20 unit. The soldiers who you see -- you saw yesterday on the footage were,
21 I don't think, special engineers. They were simply soldiers who were
22 clearing the mines by shooting at them. So that's two separate units and
23 two separate pieces of film.
24 Q. Indeed, but as far as I remember you did tell us yesterday that
25 you had been warned not to walk around on your own, but rather to wait to
1 be accompanied by one of the JNA members because of the danger involved on
2 account of all the mines being laid all over the place.
3 A. That's true. We'd already been warned on the 12th of November
4 when we first encountered the platoon of the guards that one of their
5 soldiers had been injured that day before our arrival, either by an
6 anti-personnel or a booby-trap. I cannot remember which of the two it is.
7 My experience in other war zones has taught me that one has to be
8 extremely careful in such circumstances as to where one walks. So that
9 one wants to go with people who are aware that a certain area has been
10 cleared, and for obvious reasons that one doesn't want to step on a
11 land-mine or walk into a booby-trap.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel, please.
13 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation].
14 Q. I'm not sure if you agree with me. The footage that we were shown
15 yesterday, video number 1, you could see a soldier prodding the ground
16 with some sort of a pole, apparently in search of land-mines. Would that
17 seem to have been the case?
18 A. Yes, this is fairly typical within armies around the world that
19 one uses something of that sort if one is looking for land-mines.
20 Q. You also testified yesterday that the land-mines had been laid by
21 the defenders of Vukovar. You remember that, don't you, sir?
22 A. Yes, that's indeed what I told the Court.
23 Q. If indeed those mines had been laid by Vukovar's defenders, would
24 you then agree with me if I put it to you that this had been done in order
25 to prevent anyone from gaining entry into Vukovar?
1 A. Well, this was inside Vukovar. I do not know if they had land --
2 had put land-mine outside Vukovar. This was inside as part of, I would
3 imagine, their defensive efforts to stop the JNA from moving further into
4 the town. And we were told also by JNA units that the Croats had used
5 anti-tank mines as well, often tying these to a plank and then using them
6 from houses if they -- those houses were approached by armoured vehicles.
7 Q. We are talking about anti-tank mines, but what about land-mines?
8 You can't use planks to control those from inside a house or any other
9 sort of building or facility, can you?
10 A. Anti-tank mines are also land-mines, but -- no, for the smaller
11 anti-personnel mine, which I think is what you're trying to refer to,
12 those cannot be controlled, and that's the field that I saw being cleared
13 on the 19th of November.
14 Q. This is the minefield that you videoed and that we saw as part of
15 the footage between the houses, as it were, yesterday. Right?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. Would you agree with me that any passer-by would have been in
18 danger of coming to grief if chancing upon such a surface with leaves or
19 dirt concealing a trip-wire mine or anything of the sort? Would that not
20 seem to be the case?
21 A. These were not trip-wire mines that I saw, but anyone not aware
22 that mines had been sown in this area would indeed be in danger of being
23 injured if walking into that piece of land.
24 Q. Would you agree, sir, that Vukovar's defenders had laid these
25 mines across the streets of their own city, thereby preventing anyone from
1 gaining entry into town but also cutting off their own exit, as it were,
2 from the town?
3 A. No, I wouldn't. I did not see mines over a road at any stage, nor
4 did I actually see who laid this one minefield that was cleared. We were
5 told by the soldiers we were with that this had been done by the Croatian
6 defenders, but I can't say that with certainty because I didn't see the
7 people laying it. But I never saw any street or road in Vukovar that had
8 mines across it. As far as I am aware, the Croat defenders tried to keep
9 a road open to the rest of Croatia for as long as they possibly could.
10 And as far as I'm aware, the principal and last route they had was towards
11 the town of Vinkovci.
12 Q. I'm merely trying to go back to what you stated yourself, namely
13 that the mines had been laid all over the place, including the centre of
14 town, while yesterday we heard you stating that the mines had been laid by
15 Vukovar's defender. Do you stand by what you said in your statement and
16 what you testified yesterday?
17 A. We were told that they had been laid by Vukovar's defenders. Yes,
18 we were told that there were numerous minefields, but not across the
19 roads. This was separate between houses, in parks, but not across any
20 street or road. I never saw that while I was in Vukovar.
21 Q. Thank you. Yesterday when you spoke about weapons and armed
22 forces, you said that you knew that Croatia did not have a regular army.
23 A. Is that a question?
24 Q. [No interpretation]
25 A. Yes. They did not have a regular army in July 1991, no.
1 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us, from July 1991 on, what forces fought
2 in Croatia with the then-JNA or against the then-JNA?
3 A. As far as I'm aware but, as I have already stated, I was not on
4 that side of the conflict. They had police units, special police units.
5 There were paramilitary forces, and they slowly began force -- forming an
6 army based on Croats, I imagine, who -- officers who had been in the JNA
7 and who now decided to fight for the Croat state, the fledgling Croat
8 state, in much the same way as an army was formed in Bosnia in 1992, which
9 is something that I did witness at first-hand, the slow forming of a
10 Bosnian army.
11 Q. All right. We will leave Bosnia aside for the time being and
12 focus only on the events in Croatia. Do you know how these forces that
13 you just listed to us obtained weapons?
14 A. Well, they must have had weapons, as they were the police. So
15 again, these would have been light weaponry. I am aware also now - I'm
16 not sure I was aware at the time - that -- of the allegations that the
17 Croatian government had smuggled in weapons prior to the conflict
18 beginning. They would have had -- for instance, the police forces would
19 have had some armoured cars. And I imagine that from certain places
20 within Croatia from certain of the JNA barracks, they may have gotten some
21 weaponry from that. After July 1991, I imagine again that Croatia tried,
22 as much as it could, to bring in weaponry from outside. And I'm certainly
23 aware that later on in the war in 1993 or 1994, for instance, Mi-24
24 helicopter gun-ships were bought by the Croatian I believe from Hungary
25 and those were used in Operation Storm in 1995.
1 Q. There is no need to go in depth when I refer to the 1991 events
2 and the weapons that the Croatian forces had in 1991. Since you did hear
3 about weapons smuggling, would it sound familiar to you if I told you
4 about the Spegelj scandal and the smuggling of weapons from Hungary?
5 A. I'm aware.
6 MS. TUMA: Your Honour, I would like to object here, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Ms. Tuma.
8 MS. TUMA: We are talking about Vukovar and now the Defence is
9 again entering weapons from Hungary. I want the Defence to clarify the
10 relevance of those questions specifically --
11 JUDGE PARKER: That's introduction of weapons to Croatia from
12 Hungary, I would think.
13 MS. TUMA: Me, too, but I don't know.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Do I correctly understand the import of your
15 question, Ms. Tapuskovic? There's been no mention of Croatia in the
16 particular wording of the question. I -- it seemed to me you were, by
17 implication, suggesting importation from Hungary into Croatia. Is that
18 what you are suggesting?
19 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honour. You
20 are right. I simply based my question on the answer of the witness. It
21 was a follow-up question. The witness told us that he heard later on
22 about the smuggling of the weapons. Thank you.
23 JUDGE PARKER: I think that sufficiently indicates the relevance,
24 Ms. Tuma.
25 Sorry to interrupt you, Mrs. Tapuskovic.
1 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, that's
2 quite all right.
3 Q. As for the smuggling of weapons from other countries into Croatia,
4 you heard about that later. Now, during the time, that time when the
5 events were taking place, did you hear that Croatia obtained the largest
6 portion of its weapons by emptying the JNA depots which had been blocked
7 in the territory of Croatia, starting from that spring of 1991?
8 A. I'm not aware of the barracks being blockaded from the spring of
9 1991. I imagine that they did get weaponry out of certain army depots.
10 Others, I believe, were blown up. There was one instance, at least, in
11 the early autumn of 1991 when there was a major explosion within one of
12 the JNA barracks or JNA depots within Croatia where ammunition and
13 weaponry were blown up, that I can remember, but I'm not aware, of course,
14 of -- I was not there. How much weaponry they may or may not have got.
15 The information we were given in Belgrade, and I remember even General
16 Kadijevic even mentioning it in his -- when I spoke to him, and that was
17 in September 1991, that the weaponry that the Croats had smuggling into
18 Croatia, that we're here talking about, relatively light infantry weapons.
19 I'm not aware of anyone telling me that heavy weaponry, artillery, or
20 tanks were being smuggled into Croatia during 1991.
21 Q. I did not distinguish between the light and heavy weaponry,
22 Mr. van Lynden. I simply asked you whether you knew in which way they
23 obtained their weaponry. I can see that this information, which is needed
24 in order to provide unbiased reporting, you didn't have. Back in 1991,
25 Croatia did not conceal this fact; it publicly spoke about the channels
1 for obtaining weapons. Do you know that there was such statements made in
3 A. I do not remember those statements being made, no.
4 Q. In that case, can you give us an explanation that would be
5 acceptable. How come that the defenders of Vukovar who, according to you,
6 had only Kalashnikovs and pistols were able to hold off the JNA army for
7 three months, preventing them from entering the inner area of the city?
8 A. I didn't say that they only had Kalashnikovs and pistols; I said I
9 only saw them with Kalashnikovs and pistols when they surrendered on the
10 18th of November. I have said that they certainly had land-mines of a
11 variety of sorts, and I imagine that they also had some anti-tank
12 weaponry, whether it was RPG-7s or heavier calibre, anti-tank weapons,
13 that I'm not aware of.
14 Your fellow lawyer of the Defence said yesterday that they had
15 anti-aircraft guns. I did not see them having anti-aircraft guns. I
16 never saw any kind of heavy fire being returned on to the lines of the
17 JNA, either on the northern or the southern front of Vukovar. The fires,
18 I said yesterday, was only heading in one direction; there was no incoming
19 fire. That left me with the impression that they did not have any kind of
20 artillery. As to why it took the JNA three months to take Vukovar, I
21 would suggest that you ask the JNA that rather than an outside observer.
22 But as far as I could see this was --
23 Q. Mr. van Lynden, I didn't ask you that. I just wanted to see
24 whether you could explain how come the weapons that I mentioned were
25 sufficient to defend the city for three months. I didn't ask you whether
1 they had any heavy weaponry or anti-tank guns. My colleague asked you
2 yesterday about the tanks that were destroyed. We will turn to that a bit
3 later -- or perhaps we can do it right away. When you were travelling to
4 Vukovar via Erdut, did you see a sign for a place called Trpinje?
5 A. I may have done, I don't know. I cannot remember.
6 Q. There's a road between Trpinje and Vukovar called Trpinje road.
7 Do you know that on the 16th of November on the Trpinje road, a decisive
8 battle for the defence of Vukovar took place?
9 A. No, I was not aware of that. At the time I was on the southern
10 front rather than on the northern front. I did not in November at all
11 cross the bridge at Erdut. I only came through Sid, Tovarnik, and
12 Negoslavci. So I was not on the northern front to Vukovar.
13 Q. We're now discussing Vukovar as a city, not a broader area. This
14 Trpinje road is perhaps 5 kilometres from the downtown area. It is also
15 known as the graveyard of tanks. Did you hear of this term, which was
16 coined on the 16th of November, two days before you arrived in Vukovar
18 A. No. I never heard the term "the graveyard of tanks." What we had
19 been told, as I mentioned earlier, and this we were told by JNA was that
20 one of the tactics used by the Croatian defenders in the city was to tie
21 land-mines on to planks of wood and at the last moment shove these out of
22 the basement windows of houses in front of tanks or other armoured
23 vehicles as they came up that street. But I was never told about a
24 graveyard of tanks.
25 Q. Did you perhaps hear on that same day, the 16th of November, about
1 Blago Zadro, to which Croatians refer to as their hero, who was killed?
2 A. I may have done at the time, but I do remember the name today.
3 Q. Thank you. Let us now turn to events which took place in Vukovar
4 itself after your arrival. Yesterday you told us that upon entering
5 Vukovar on the 18th you went to Negoslavci where you saw that they were
6 preparing to hold negotiations between the JNA and the defenders. Is that
8 A. I did not enter Vukovar. Negoslavci is before Vukovar. I don't
9 precisely remember the course of events, but I imagine we were stopped and
10 we were told that the negotiations were taking place. I certainly
11 remember seeing Mr. Sljivancanin there again, and he must have spoken to
12 my field producer and explained to him what was happening. We then also
13 met the ICRC delegate --
14 Q. I apologise for interrupting you. Would you please try to focus
15 on my question. I didn't say that on that day you necessarily entered
16 Vukovar; I said that you came to Negoslavci and were present when the
17 efforts were made to organise negotiations between the JNA and the Vukovar
18 defenders. You confirmed that that was correct. Yesterday you said - and
19 that was correct as well - that you did not enter Vukovar on that day.
20 Yesterday you also said that three negotiators appeared from somewhere
21 representing themselves as somebody appearing on behalf of the defenders.
22 Can you tell us whether these people came wearing civilian clothes or
23 military uniforms?
24 A. As I remember, they were brought on foot, accompanied by a few JNA
25 soldiers. And as I remember, they were wearing uniform.
1 Q. Can you describe the uniforms for us to the best of your
2 recollection after all this time has passed.
3 A. I think that they were wearing dark green shirts and trousers. I
4 don't believe it being camouflage uniform, but I think that they had a
5 sort of camouflage waist coat -- or at least one of them. I think that
6 there -- the leader of the delegation was the tallest of the three, but I
7 don't have a precise recollection. They walked past us, and as I think I
8 said yesterday I was not actually allowed myself into the room where the
9 negotiations took place, only the cameraman. We included pictures of
10 that, so I must have looked at the pictures on the 18th when we were
11 editing the story, but as my recollection is, it was something just like a
12 green uniform and possibly a camouflage jacket.
13 Q. Did you observe whether they had any weapons on them?
14 A. I certainly do not remember them carrying Kalashnikovs. Whether
15 they were carrying a pistol on their hips, it's possible, but I don't
16 think so, no.
17 Q. Since you were there together with some other media
18 representatives, did the JNA or somebody else present there tell you who
19 these persons were, these three Croats, or was it a rumour that circulated
20 among you, the journalists, stating that these were defenders of Vukovar?
21 A. We had already been told in Negoslavci that there would be
22 face-to-face negotiations with representatives of the Croats from Vukovar.
23 I don't remember being ever told precisely the names of these people or
24 their ranks, but we had been told beforehand that we would be taken to
25 face-to-face negotiations mediated by the ICRC between JNA officers and
1 representatives of the Croat defenders of Vukovar.
2 Q. Thank you. You told us yesterday that after that, you were taken
3 to a location where you had been told the defenders of Vukovar would
4 surrender. Then you told us all of these individuals wore civilian
5 clothes. Is that right?
6 A. Those carrying arms wore only -- and who laid down their arms wore
7 only civilian clothes. That is correct. I don't remember seeing anybody
8 wearing uniform. And the rest of those coming out of the town were
10 Q. Then please tell us, how long did you travel from Negoslavci to
11 this small, white house in a deserted -- on a deserted farm? How did you
12 get from Negoslavci to that house?
13 A. We got there by car, driving in a convoy, convoy led by vehicles
14 from the JNA. I can't remember precisely how long the drive took, maybe
15 15 minutes, maybe a bit longer. I cannot remember.
16 Q. Now I would like for you to tell me something relating to your
17 visit to the hospital. Yesterday you told us that that was on the 19th of
18 November. Is that right?
19 A. The first time that we went to the hospital was on the 19th of
20 November. That is correct.
21 Q. You said that that was in late afternoon, after 2.30. Is that
22 right? A. In the afternoon, yes.
23 Q. You stated quite clearly that neither in the hospital nor around
24 the hospital did you see any members of the JNA or Croatian forces wearing
25 any kinds of uniforms. Please tell us, what do you mean by "any kind of
1 uniforms"? What kind of uniform did Croatian forces wear that you were
2 able to distinguish?
3 A. By any kind of uniform, I mean any kind of military uniform and of
4 a green or camouflage uniform variety. We did see some Croatians wearing
5 those when we found the dead the following day. I did not see any
6 uniformed men around the hospital when we arrived at the hospital on the
7 19th of November.
8 Q. And you saw nobody wearing any kind of uniform in the hospital on
9 the 19th?
10 A. As far as I remember, no, I did not on the 19th see anyone inside
11 the hospital wearing a uniform.
12 Q. When you arrived with your crew at the hospital, did anybody stop
13 you at the door or on the premises asking you what you were looking for
15 A. I imagine that when we entered the hospital we indeed must have
16 spoken to people. It was pretty clear what we wanted there because I had
17 a cameraman with me, which is pretty much recognisable to anyone. We were
18 a television news team. As I said yesterday, we asked to meet the
19 director of the hospital but did not do so and finally met this -- I
20 specifically was asking to speak to someone in English of the hospital
21 staff. And we then met this one woman doctor who did speak English. I
22 cannot remember if we were stopped at the hospital entrance or after
23 entering, but I think for anyone who saw us it was clear what we were and
24 what we were there for.
25 Q. Did you try to speak to any of the patients?
1 A. Yes, we did, and I imagine that my field producer would probably
2 have done a few short interviews with some of the patients who were in a
3 position to talk. But these were -- I don't remember them precisely and
4 we certainly didn't include them in the final story, the final report,
5 that I did on that day.
6 Q. Can you then tell us who told you when you entered the hospital
7 that the floors had been evacuated and how many patients there were in the
8 hospital. Yesterday in your evidence you said that you'd been told this.
9 By whom?
10 A. By the English-speaking doctor.
11 Q. Tell me, please, did this doctor, lady doctor, show you various
12 corridors in the hospital and basement rooms, or did you start touring the
13 hospital on your own?
14 A. My recollection is that we did both. We showed us a number of
15 rooms. She showed us, in particular, a number of patients and related
16 their various -- the problems with those patients, including one baby
17 child that had been severely injured. But I also remember that we were
18 able to walk around on our own.
19 Q. Sir, based on the film we saw yesterday that you and your crew
20 produced, the only thing shown there were corridors with patients. Would
21 you please tell us, were there more patients along these corridors or
22 inside rooms that were used for holding patients?
23 A. My recollection is that there were patients everywhere. It was
24 jam-packed with wounded and with people whom we were told were relatives
25 of the wounded. I don't remember going into any empty rooms.
1 Q. This lady doctor who spoke English, did she not say how many
2 people, wounded people, were in the hospital, and did she perhaps say if
3 there were any relatives of the hospital staff inside the hospital?
4 A. I think she is the one who told me that there was several hundred
5 wounded, possibly up to 500 wounded inside the hospital. I -- we didn't
6 count them nor did we have time to count them. And as far as relatives is
7 concerned, the only thing I remember her saying is that her own -- I think
8 her own daughter was with her inside the hospital. But I don't remember
9 her saying that all the hospital staff had their relatives with them.
10 That I can't remember. But I remember her talking about her daughter
11 because this woman originally came from Vukovar and now said that she,
12 with her child, would have to leave Vukovar. And at that time she
13 believed that this would be forever.
14 Q. Thank you, sir. I'm nearing the end of my cross-examination.
15 Therefore, I would like to go back to what was going on on the streets of
16 Vukovar on the 15th [as interpreted]. Before you went to the hospital, in
17 your statement to the investigators you said that you had watched
18 civilians leaving and that these civilians were being guarded by JNA
19 soldiers in order to prevent any ill treatment that these civilians might
20 otherwise have suffered on the hands of Serb paramilitaries. Do you
21 remember saying that, sir?
22 A. I imagine you're referring to the 19th rather than the 15th,
23 because the transcript reads "the 15th." But yes, indeed. In the centre
24 of town we entered a large group of people being led back out of the city
25 centre to the outskirts of Vukovar. We were told by the JNA that they
1 were being led back because they -- that would be a normal thing to do
2 once a city had fallen. I imagine these people were also interrogated,
3 and they -- these JNA soldiers also said that they were protecting them,
4 indeed, from the Serb militia that were also in the centre of Vukovar.
5 Q. Thank you for this. Indeed the transcript on page 23, line 20,
6 seems to suggest the 15th. It certainly should read "the 19th." Thank
7 you for that, Mr. van Lynden.
8 My last question to you, sir, this is also something that is
9 apparently if one looks at the footage you took when the defenders of
10 Mitnica were laying down their weapons - and this is something you
11 confirmed in your statement - the entire process unfolded peacefully with
12 no jeering and no shouting. No one was being taunted. Do you think it
13 would be fair statement to say that both the civilians leaving Vukovar and
14 Vukovar defenders laying down their arms were being treated with due
16 A. I did indeed say that in my report that there was no jeering and
17 no ill treatment that we witnessed, and that they were indeed treated with
18 respect as far as we could see, but that was as far as them getting on the
19 buses. What happened after that, we were not able to see. But what we
20 saw, it was an orderly, organised surrender, and those surrendering were
21 not mistreated.
22 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. van Lynden.
23 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have no further
24 questions for this witness. Thank you.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much.
1 I note the time, Mr. Bulatovic. Would you like to continue now
2 for some nearly ten minutes or would you prefer to break now?
3 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think a break
4 would be fine in that case.
5 JUDGE PARKER: I'm sure Mr. van Lynden would like a break now as
6 well. We will resume then at just before 4.00.
7 --- Recess taken at 3.37 p.m.
8 --- On resuming at 4.05 p.m.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Bulatovic.
10 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Good
11 afternoon to all.
12 Cross-examined by Mr. Bulatovic:
13 Q. Good afternoon to you, Mr. van Lynden. My name is Momcilo
14 Bulatovic. I am one of Mr. Sljivancanin's counsel.
15 Mr. van Lynden, before you were sent by your TV station to report
16 on the conflict in the former Yugoslavia, Croatia specifically, what sort
17 of information were you given, if any at all, concerning the situation in
18 the area, concerning inter-ethnic relations, the intensity of armed
19 fighting, that sort of thing?
20 A. A file of newspaper articles had been prepared for me, and for the
21 rest I was briefed by the people I encountered in Belgrade when I arrived
22 there. As to what had been happening in the country, I met a number of
23 journalists and political analysts in Belgrade who briefed me as to what
24 had been happening in the country that year and in the previous years. I
25 had also been in Belgrade in December 1989 before and after the Romanian
1 revolution, when I had been in touch with a number of these people, and
2 they had in fact talked about the situation in Yugoslavia then. And on
3 several, two or three, occasions I had met Jaksa Scekic who is now the Sky
4 News bureau chief in London. And we had talked about the situation in
5 Yugoslavia during those meetings.
6 Q. How long have you known Mr. Scekic for, Jaksa Scekic?
7 A. I met him for the first time in the summer of 1989 in London when
8 he came to conclude an agreement between Belgrade television or Yugoslav
9 television and Sky News.
10 Q. The other people you mentioned you were in touch with who provided
11 some of your information, political analysts, a number of journalists, and
12 some other people, are these people whom you had known for some time or
13 did someone, Mr. Scekic perhaps, put you in touch with these people?
14 A. No. This was either through Mr. Scekic or through my field
15 producer, Zoran Kusovac, that I met these people. These are people like
16 Zoran Sedovic [phoen], who died last year, Milos Vasic, people of that
18 Q. Did you receive any information from such people about what my
19 colleague, Mrs. Tapuskovic, has asked you about, about Croatia illegally
20 arming itself?
21 A. As I recall, I was told that there had been allegations made, that
22 the Croats had earlier, in 1991, and possibly before that but I cannot
23 remember if they said that or not, brought in arms into Croatia.
24 Q. Did you perhaps have any information received from this circle of
25 people or otherwise that Croatia had laid siege to a number of JNA
1 barracks seizing weapons from the barracks?
2 A. Yes, I think we were informed that that had occurred.
3 Q. In the framework of this same issue, did anyone tell you anything
4 about the fate of the Varazdin barracks?
5 A. I can't remember the name. As I mentioned earlier to your
6 colleague, I'm aware that during the autumn of 1991 there was a major
7 explosion at one of the barracks, one of the depots, within Croatia, but I
8 can't remember the name of that and I cannot remember the precise names of
9 these various barracks, no.
10 Q. Do you perhaps remember an attack by the Croats against members of
11 the JNA, some of the consequences being fatal; more specifically, do you
12 remember an attack on JNA members that occurred in Split?
13 A. Yes, I think I do remember an attack in Split. If you were to ask
14 me for a precise date, I wouldn't be able to give it. But I do remember
15 of an attack in Split, yes. But as I -- that was in the summer of 1991,
16 as I recall -- as far as I can recall.
17 Q. Do you know that a member of the JNA was strangled on this
18 occasion, and this person happened to be an ethnic Macedonian?
19 MS. TUMA: Your Honour.
20 JUDGE PARKER: Mrs. Tuma?
21 MS. TUMA: Thank you, Your Honour. Once again the objection --
22 we're presenting the relevance to the Vukovar case. Thank you,
23 Your Honour.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Perhaps you can assist us there, Mr. Bulatovic.
25 What do you say is the relevance?
1 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the fact is the JNA
2 intervened in the territory of what was then the Federal Republic of
3 Yugoslavia. Croatia had main a unilateral declaration of independence,
4 and all these details show us the mood prevailing of members of the JNA.
5 Witness spoke about this yesterday, after all; however, I will not be
6 asking any further questions of this nature, so ...
7 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. You'll move on. Thank you,
8 Mr. Bulatovic.
9 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 Q. Sir, your stay in Vukovar, October 1991, you said you drove into
11 Vukovar or into the JNA barracks there in an APC. Can you explain why?
12 A. Because I was there to cover what was happening, and we were told,
13 as I recall, that access by the JNA to the JNA barracks had only just been
14 achieved and to show us that the barracks was again in their hands, I
15 imagined they said: You can go with us but it is too dangerous to go in
16 your own soft-skinned vehicles. We were driving Volkswagen Golfs, and
17 therefore they said: You can come with us in an armoured personnel
18 carrier. That's how we went in and that's how we came out. I believe the
19 trip originated in Negoslavci.
20 Q. Once inside the barracks, were you free to move about? Were you
21 free to leave the barracks?
22 A. It was audible to us that shooting was going on around the
23 barracks, and we were told that it was not safe for us to move outside.
24 When we arrived in the barracks, we went straight from the armoured
25 personnel carrier into a building, as I think I described to the Court
1 yesterday, something of a command and control room with maps and with
2 radios. We stayed in that room, quite a large room, as I recall, for a
3 certain period of time and then we left again. Therefore, the only thing
4 I saw was within the APC when we drove into the barracks and then when we
5 left again. But we were told and we heard that there was shooting going
6 on, and we would therefore not have been safe simply walking around.
7 Q. Sir, when did you meet these members of the guards brigade whom
8 you were with on the 12th and the 13th and then later on the 18th, the
9 19th, and the 20th? Had you known these people prior to the 12th? Since
10 you had been in Vukovar in October, did you have a chance to meet them
12 A. No. As I recall, the first time I met them was on the 12th of
13 November. My field producer, Zoran Kusovac, had met at least
14 Mr. Sljivancanin earlier because he introduced me to him on that day. But
15 for me, I only met them on the 12th of November for the first time. We
16 did not meet any of them, apart from Mr. Sljivancanin, on the 18th, but we
17 met them again on the 19th and on the 20th.
18 Q. The 12th and the 13th, you spent the entire night in Vukovar.
19 Were you together with members of this unit throughout this time?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Were they carrying out combat operations throughout or were they
22 just staying inside this makeshift barracks or whatever it was. You did
23 say it was close to the centre of town, didn't you?
24 A. I did say that it was close to the centre of town. They were
25 staying in a normal house that -- where they had -- which they had taken
1 over. No, they were not constantly engaged in combat operations, but they
2 took us to various different houses across various streets. They took us
3 out at night, when a patrol was sent out. And -- so we were in different
4 houses in different streets. The one real combat operation that I am
5 aware of them being engaged in happened on the morning of the 13th of
6 November. As I have mentioned to this Court, we were allowed to watch one
7 member or a couple of members firing a 60-millimetre mortar, but the
8 lieutenant did not allow us to go with them on the operation itself to
9 take out a house that, as I recall, I was on a crossroads, because he felt
10 we would get in the way, endanger his men, and that we would also be in
12 Q. You explained that. Thank you. During your time with this unit
13 on the 12th and the 13th of November, 1991, did anyone from the unit deny
14 you any sort of information that you wanted to know about? Did they ban
15 you from taking any footage, videoing anything, while you were with them
16 at their positions?
17 A. No, not that I can recall. The only thing was that the -- as I
18 said earlier, the lieutenant wouldn't actually let us go on this one
19 operation, but I don't recall them ever saying: You cannot film
20 anything --
21 Q. You explained the reasons, yes. Thank you. What I want to know
22 about is those permits that you had to apply for. What was the substance
23 of those permits? What exactly did they say, permits allowing you into a
24 certain area, those one-day passes or whatever you want to call them.
25 Would you return these the next day or what became of them?
1 A. Good question. I don't remember -- I mean, they were pieces of
2 paper collected by my field producer. I imagine they had our names on it,
3 that these names were checked in Sid. I had also a permanent
4 accreditation as a correspondent to Yugoslavia, so I would have had to
5 show that permanent accreditation paper, but I don't remember whether
6 these papers, that we had to hand them back in or what happened to them
8 Q. You say that for a while you went to Belgrade to obtain permission
9 and later on you needed to go to Sid. When did this time come when you
10 had to go to Sid as well to get another permit, if my understanding of
11 what you testified is correct?
12 A. As far as I can recall, from the first moment that we entered the
13 southern -- the -- from the south of Vukovar, we always had to pass by
14 this office in Sid. I don't remember any similar office being on the
15 northern side. It may be that our original trip when we entered Tovarnik
16 and Ilaca, as I think it's called, that at that time there was not yet the
17 office in Sid. But certainly in November we had to pass by that office in
18 Sid as well. So you had to go to both, first the Ministry of Defence in
19 Belgrade the night before, and then Sid on the day itself.
20 Q. Aside from you, the Sky News reporter, was it ever the case that
21 you were in Sid at the same time as some other foreign journalists?
22 A. I suspect that was the case, but I don't have any recollection of
24 Q. The 12th and the 13th you reached Vukovar from Sid. Did you drive
25 in your Golf car or did you get there using a different means of
1 transport? And if so, secured by whom exactly?
2 A. We drove in our vehicles, two Volkswagen Golfs.
3 Q. Were you accompanied by anyone?
4 A. Not until we reached -- but I imagine that we drove to the JNA
5 barracks. I don't recall precisely where we met Mr. Sljivancanin. My
6 recollection is that from then on somebody was told to go with us to bring
7 us to the platoon commander to whom we went and with whom we spent the
8 next 24 hours.
9 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please go
10 into private session briefly?
11 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
12 [Private session]
17 [Open session]
18 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honour.
19 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Mr. van Lynden, let us now turn to the 18th of November, 1991.
21 You already touched upon this, but it remained unclear to me. Where and
22 when did you receive information stating that there would be some kind of
23 a surrender, that something interesting would happen? Can you specify
24 what time it was?
25 A. No, I can't specify a precise time, but -- as far as I can recall,
1 we were told that in Negoslavci. We were stopped. We met
2 Mr. Sljivancanin. As I've said before, we were introduced to the ICRC
3 delegate, and we were told negotiations for surrender would take place.
4 As far as I can recall that, we were told all this when we arrived in
6 Q. In front of the little white house where the negotiations were
7 held between the representatives of the so-called Croatian army and
8 representatives of the JNA, were there any other foreign journalists?
9 A. Yes. As I recall, Michael Nicholson from ITN, with a team and
10 Martin Bell of the BBC with his team. If there were other foreign
11 journalists there, I don't remember them, and there were a number of Serb
12 journalists there.
13 Q. Were all of the journalists banned from entering the negotiations
14 or was it only you?
15 A. As I recall, the agreement was that we could allow our cameramen
16 to enter for a little while to film at the beginning of the negotiations
17 and that they would then -- the cameramen would have to leave, the
18 negotiations would take place, and that the journalists were told to stay
19 outside. It was the -- I should add here also for the Judges that it was
20 the habit in the former Yugoslavia, for instance, at meetings of the
21 federal Presidency that only a camera could go in and no sound was to be
22 recorded at such meetings. Whether that was the case during the
23 negotiations at the farm-house, I don't know. But it would not have been
24 unusual for journalists not to be allowed in.
25 Q. Do you know perhaps, do you remember, who was it who set these
1 conditions that applied to you journalists on that day, the 18th of
3 A. I imagine it was those hosting the negotiations, the JNA, but I
4 cannot recall precisely.
5 Q. Do you have any information indicating that such a request was
6 perhaps put forward by the Croatian negotiating trio?
7 A. No, I have no information of that sort.
8 Q. You stood waiting outside. Can you tell me how long did the
9 negotiations go on, if you remember?
10 A. I don't remember how long they took.
11 Q. After that you went back to the road where the members of the
12 so-called Croatian forces had to lay down their weapons and then the
13 civilians came and so on. Do you remember how long this process took, the
14 laying down of weapons, boarding buses, and so on?
15 A. I imagine quite some time, but I don't have a precise recollection
16 as to how long it took, nor do I have a recollection of it being first the
17 military, people with guns, and then civilians. As I remember it, it was
18 a mishmash of people, some with guns, some without. But if the figures
19 are indeed correct that 4.000 civilians came out, it would have taken some
21 Q. Mr. Lynden, I'm trying to determine until what time you remained
22 there. We have a footage with your concluding comments showing that it
23 was still daytime. Therefore I'm interesting in pin-pointing the exact
24 period of time, if you remember. If not, that's fine.
25 A. I don't have a precise recollection as to when we left, nor do I
1 have a precise recollection as to if we left and the whole surrender had
2 actually been accomplished. It may have been that due to the fact that we
3 had to drive back to Belgrade, edit, and file a piece, because of our
4 deadlines, that we left earlier. I remember being there for some time, at
5 least an hour, probably more, but a precise time -- and we certainly did
6 not leave at night-time. I do not recall leaving at night. The usual
7 thing that they would want us back in Belgrade by 6.00 at the latest.
8 Certain days we were later than that, and it may have been that -- but I
9 don't recall leaving that spot where the surrender took place at night.
10 So we must have left there when it was still daytime.
11 Q. Thank you. Let me ask you this: Do you remember whether after
12 the negotiations which took place between the representatives of the
13 so-called Croatian army and the JNA representatives, the representative of
14 the International Red Cross gave any statement to the media?
15 A. I don't recall him giving an on-camera statement, no. He may well
16 have talked to us, saying that the negotiations had been successfully
17 concluded and that a surrender would take place. But I don't remember him
18 going in front of the camera. In my experience, both before and
19 afterwards with the International Committee of the Red Cross, it's very
20 unusual for them to be willing to give on-the-record statements and it's
21 actually also unusual for them to give off-the-record statements. They
22 are very careful with their dealings with the media.
23 Q. In addition to that one representative of the ICRC, were there any
24 other representatives of any other international organisation present at
25 negotiations on the 18th?
1 A. I remember him having an interpreter with him. I do not recall
2 any other organisations, no.
3 Q. Do you know that on the 18th of November, 1991, at the time of the
4 surrender of the so-called Mitnica Battalion of the so-called Croatian
5 army, do you know whether any representative of any international
6 organisation was present, the UN or any other organisation? Anybody else
7 in addition to the representative of the ICRC? Do you know that Mr. Cyrus
8 Vance was at Mitnica on the 18th?
9 A. I knew Mr. Vance, and he was not there on the 18th. I'm aware of
10 him being in Vukovar on the 19th of November, not on the 18th. Nor am I
11 aware of any member of his --
12 Q. Thank you, Mr. van Lynden. I was only interested in the 18th. We
13 will get to the 19th --
14 A. Can I finish with who was or who may -- I am aware that no member
15 of Mr. Vance's staff was there on the 18th because I would have recognised
16 them as well. It is possible that there was another organisation, but not
17 that I can recall. I can only remember the ICRC being there.
18 Q. Mr. van Lynden, let us now turn to the 19th. We have the
19 time-line described by you when you left Belgrade, how you travelled to
20 Vukovar, when you arrived, and so on. When you met with the
21 representatives or, rather, members of the guards brigade that you had
22 been with on the 12th and 13th, do you remember what time it was when you
23 met up with them?
24 A. In the relatively early morning. I recall that some of them were
25 still asleep.
1 Q. You went to the water-tower. Was it at your request or did these
2 people offer that to you, to go to the water-tower and record whatever you
3 were interested in?
4 A. I went to the water-tower with the captain and the lieutenant whom
5 I've mentioned earlier, and they went into the water-tower and up the
6 water-tower with us. Whether we went there because of our requests or
7 because they decide to take us there, that I cannot recall. But it makes
8 sense for me to -- for us to have wanted to go there because it was a high
9 position which would give us an overview of Vukovar and the surrounding
11 Q. Will you please also tell me, do you remember whether you
12 travelled in a military vehicle or was it your vehicle, in view of the
13 fact that the lieutenant and the captain travelled with you?
14 A. As far as I recall, they travelled in their vehicle and we
15 travelled in ours. We simply followed them, but I'm not a hundred per
16 cent certain on that. As far as I can recall, that's the way it went.
17 Part of the time on that day we went in our cars; part of the time we went
18 on foot. And I cannot precisely recall how I got to the water-tower,
19 whether it was on foot or by car.
20 Q. Did you personally go up the water-tower and were captain and
21 lieutenant with you or perhaps a cameraman or somebody else?
22 A. Yes, I did personally go up the water-tower. The cameraman
23 definitely went up there, because otherwise we would not have had the
24 pictures. And as I recall the lieutenant came up. Whether the captain
25 did as well, that I cannot remember. But I know the lieutenant did
1 because we actually took -- the cameraman took pictures of the lieutenant
2 looking over Vukovar from the top of the water-tower.
3 Q. Do you remember, did the lieutenant, whose name we're not going to
4 mention, give you any statement when you were inside the water-tower for
5 your TV station about combat, what took place, where, and so on?
6 A. You're asking me whether we did an interview with the lieutenant
7 in the water-tower?
8 Q. I don't mean an interview. I mean: Did he give you a statement?
9 Did you record him giving you a statement and detailing something about
10 the combat? Did that take place in the water-tower?
11 A. I certainly don't recall having used that. The only thing I
12 recall, the only interview that I recall having used with that unit is an
13 interview with a man who I think was a sergeant in that unit, and that was
14 an interview that we had taken on the 13th of November. We may have asked
15 him questions in front of the camera, but I don't recall it actually being
16 used in any report that we filed to London.
17 Q. I didn't ask about the 13th. I was interested in the 19th in the
18 water-tower. Do you remember how long you stayed in the water-tower, half
19 an hour, an hour?
20 A. No, I would -- I suspect less than half an hour.
21 Q. And following that, where did you go -- or rather, who decided
22 where you would go next? Was it you or the captain and lieutenant who
23 were with you?
24 A. I don't have a precise recollection of itinerary on that day that
25 we went from A to B to C and what A, B, and C, D were. I remember going
1 first, finding this unit. I remember soldiers showing us where the
2 minefield was that we've seen and already talked about today. I remember
3 them accompanying us into the centre of town when there was this large,
4 further surrender of civilians that we have talked about. I recall that
5 they -- we heard the music and saw the celebrations that we also saw in
6 the film that was shown to the Court yesterday of people who said they
7 were from Seselj's militia. But I don't recall the precise order of
8 events of the 19th in chronological order, nor whether it was us who took
9 the initiative or them. The one thing I do remember it was the soldiers
10 taking the initiative, it was two things: Firstly, to show us the
11 minefield and that that was being disposed of; and that they took us to
12 these tunnels that had been dug under Vukovar and that they showed us
13 those. That came because they told us about them and took us there.
14 Whether with the other matters it was our initiative, that I cannot
16 Q. Now the hospital and the trip to the hospital, was it your
17 initiative or was it that the troops went there and you decided to go with
18 them, to accompany them, or did somebody else tell you to go there? How
19 did you go to the hospital on the 19th, at whose initiative?
20 A. That was something that we had asked to go to because we wanted to
21 see what the state of the hospital was and the conditions within, what
22 they were. Again, I'm not sure whether we actually went there on our own
23 or whether we were accompanied by either the lieutenant or one of his
24 soldiers. But that was something that we wanted to do. We were aware
25 that there was a hospital in Vukovar and we wanted to reach it.
1 Q. I'll accept that this was your request and that the army made it
2 possible for you to go there. Did any of the members of the unit hinder
3 your trip to the hospital? Did they try to talk you out of it? Or did
4 they let you go there without any opposition, let you go and record
5 whatever you wanted?
6 A. I do not remember them opposing our visit to the hospital nor them
7 even trying to talk us out of going there, no.
8 Q. Once you arrived in the hospital on the 19th, if I remember well,
9 you said that based on your recollection it was around 1400 hours. Do you
10 remember - I think it was 1400 hours or 1430, that's what you said
11 yesterday - do you remember, once you got to the hospital did any of the
12 medical personnel of the hospital leave the hospital prior to you entering
13 it and talk to you?
14 A. As I think I've mentioned, I don't have a precise recollection of
15 the time we arrived at the hospital and I have no recollection of someone
16 coming out of the hospital and talking to us outside the hospital. I --
17 my recollection is of talking to people inside the hospital, in the
18 basement of the hospital.
19 Q. Do you remember any of the medical staff members giving you the
20 number of patients in the hospital and the make-up of patients prior to
21 you entering the hospital? Let me assist you.
22 A. No, I don't.
23 Q. You said that the army showed minefields to you and that they used
24 an unusual way to clear the mines. Did the army also tell you about all
25 of the locations of minefields? Did they tell you that, you being a war
1 journalist? Did they tell you about all the locations, directions, and so
3 A. No. They took us to this one field that I remember and that we
4 filmed. It was, for me, the first time that I had ever seen soldiers
5 clearing a minefield in that manner, and therefore it was unusual for me.
6 They warned us that there would be other mines strewn around and that we
7 had to be careful where we walked and where we drove. And as far as
8 possible, if we were to drive anywhere, that we should take the tracks of
9 vehicles that had got just before us; that's normal in a war zone. And
10 that you are careful where you walk. And as much as possible, also
11 because I was responsible for the lives of three other people, it made
12 sense for us, therefore, to go around accompanied by people who knew the
13 town better than we did.
14 Q. While you were in the hospital in Vukovar, you talked to the lady
15 doctor, patients of the hospital. Did you know at that time or prior to
16 that time that there were any wounded members of the JNA in the hospital?
17 A. No, I did not.
18 Q. If I remember well, you said yesterday that you remained in the
19 hospital for about an hour. Once you left, did somebody give you any
20 statement there, upon leaving hospital? Did any of the medical staff give
21 you any kind of a statement pertaining to the number of patients and so
23 A. Yes. The doctor, who spoke English and that we spoke to, we
24 interviewed on camera on a number of different matters. I'm not sure
25 whether on camera she would have told us how many patients she believed to
1 be in the hospital, but it is certainly a figure we would have asked her
2 about. Quite apart from that, the field producer would have also asked
3 that question to other people who only spoke Serbo-Croat, a language that
4 I do not speak. So we would have had that information. But that was not
5 on leaving, but that was while we were there. I don't remember anyone on
6 leaving, when we were leaving, wishing to make a separate statement to us.
7 Q. You say that on the 19th you saw in front of the hospital my
8 client and Mr. Borsinger, a representative of the ICRC. Could you specify
9 the time of the day. How long prior to your departure for Belgrade, half
10 an hour, 45 minutes, one hour?
11 A. I cannot specify a precise time of day. It would certainly have
12 been in the afternoon. I remember that we were in something of a hurry.
13 I had to do a piece to camera, otherwise known as a stand-up or when the
14 correspondent speaks directly to the camera because I hadn't done one
15 prior to that time, and we had to leave back to Belgrade to edit and file
16 the piece. So it would have been for us sometime in the afternoon, in the
17 later afternoon.
18 Q. Once you left the hospital on the 19th, before you recorded on
19 camera your final comments, could you please describe to us the atmosphere
20 in front of the hospital, around the hospital. Were there any civilians
22 A. I don't have any clear recollection of what you called an
23 atmosphere outside. There must have been some other people there. There
24 were those that -- that we -- I recall seeing there, your client and the
25 ICRC delegate. There must have been probably some more soldiers, but I
1 don't -- I mean no major crowd or anything of that nature. I remember
2 that the other two crews from BBC and ITN were also there. I remember
3 being concentrated on doing a piece to camera as quickly as possible and
4 then for us to leave Vukovar and drive back to Belgrade.
5 Q. When I asked you, Mr. van Lynden, just a little bit ago about
6 Mr. Vance you said yourself that you knew that he was in Vukovar on the
7 19th of November, 1991. Since he was an important international figure
8 visiting Vukovar, did you report on his visit to Vukovar and on the talks
9 that he had while in Vukovar?
10 A. No, I did not, and for the following reasons. Mr. Vance, when he
11 arrived for the first time in the former Yugoslavia initially refused to
12 speak to journalists apart from at the airport on his arrival and his
13 departure. At a certain moment on a Sunday we were invited to have an
14 interview with Mr. Vance, on-camera interview. And a sort of deal was
15 made after that that Mr. Vance would see me on a very regular basis, often
16 for off-the-record conversations in which he would tell me what he had
17 been up to and I would tell him what I had been up to and what I had seen.
18 I was aware that he was going to be there on the 19th of November, but I
19 felt that at that moment the story was the first time that journalists
20 were able to see Vukovar and the centre of Vukovar and what had happened
21 there and that -- I was aware also that Martin Bell, my -- of the BBC, did
22 go to cover the Cyrus Vance visit. There were very few of us in the town,
23 so therefore it made sense for me to concentrate on other matters.
24 Q. Sir, do you remember that on the 19th of November, 1991, after you
25 had left the hospital one of the members of the International Red Cross
1 gave a statement to you or any of the other journalists who were present
2 following the conversation with Mr. Sljivancanin that you have just
4 A. Which conversation? I haven't described a conversation.
5 Q. On the 19th you said on your way out of the hospital you saw
6 Mr. Sljivancanin talk to a representative of the ICRC. My question to you
7 is: Did any of those people you saw on the 19th give you or any of the
8 other reporters present there a statement?
9 A. Certainly not to me, and I do not recall whether a statement was
10 given -- I don't remember seeing any statement being given to other
11 journalists. It may have done after we left, but obviously I would not
12 have seen that. But no statement was given to me, either by
13 Mr. Sljivancanin or by the ICRC representative.
14 Q. Mr. van Lynden, your report you standing outside the hospital,
15 directly speaking to camera, was that the last report or the last footage
16 you took in Vukovar on the 19th of November, 1991, do you remember that,
17 the one with you standing outside the hospital?
18 A. As far as I can recall, yes, that's the last thing we shot and
19 then we left.
20 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we now please
21 play a part of the video that has been disclosed to us pursuant to Rule 66
22 by the OTP? I believe it was tendered into evidence yesterday. I'm
23 talking about V0006475-1-A. I would then like to ask Mr. van Lynden to
24 have a look, and then after that I have a single question in relation to
25 this video.
1 JUDGE PARKER: It's either Exhibit 136 or 138. 138 is the very
2 short extract. Is it that or the longer video?
3 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] 136, the longer one.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
5 [Videotape played]
6 "Aernaut van LYNDEN: That still exists between the Serbs and
7 Croats that lay dormant during 45 years of peace that has now expressed
8 its in a mutual commitment to a war, commitment which does not appear to
9 have been satisfied even after three months of fighting here. Aernaut van
10 Lynden, Sky News."
11 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 Q. Mr. van Lynden, you have just seen this, I trust. Did you leave
13 for Belgrade immediately after this final comment and is this indeed the
14 last piece of footage that you recorded in Vukovar during the 19th? Do
15 you remember that, sir?
16 A. As far as I can remember, that's the way it happened, that we
17 filmed inside the hospital first. And when we came out of the hospital I
18 did the piece to camera and that we then left.
19 Q. So the contact between Veselin Sljivancanin and the ICRC man takes
20 place before you make this final comment to camera, when you saw them
21 talking outside the hospital?
22 A. There I did -- it may be that we saw them after I'd finished this,
23 but we were simply leaving. There I don't have a precise time-frame in my
25 Q. But you left right after this, didn't you?
1 A. As far as I can recall, yes, this is the last thing that I filmed
2 on the 19th of November.
3 Q. Thank you, sir. Let us move on to the 20th now, the 20th of
4 November, 1991, your arrival at the hospital. You said that somewhere
5 along the way you had met this lieutenant from a guards brigade, if my
6 understanding and recollection of what you said yesterday is correct?
7 A. We've already discussed him and his name here in the court today.
8 Q. I am not allowed to use his name in a public session, on account
9 of protective measures. I won't go into that now. I will from now be
10 referring to him as "lieutenant" and you know who I mean.
11 Therefore, this lieutenant, did you reach the hospital with him on
12 the 20th?
13 A. Possibly. I can't precisely recall if we went with him or without
15 Q. This was the morning of the 20th. You reached the hospital at
16 about 9.00 or 10.00, I believe?
17 A. Yes, the morning of the 20th.
18 Q. Sir, when you arrived did you notice Veselin Sljivancanin there or
19 was it a little later? This remains somewhat unclear because in your
20 testimony you said: "Later on we saw Sljivancanin." I want to know about
21 the time-line between your arrival and the point in time when you spotted
23 A. I understand your question, but I'm not really able to answer it.
24 I cannot remember the precise chronological order that things developed on
25 that day. He may have been there when we arrived. He may have arrived
1 after we had arrived; that I don't remember precisely. As far as I can
2 recall, he came after we had arrived.
3 Q. Did you see when the ICRC man arrived?
4 A. Again, it's the same situation. I -- I do not have a precise
5 chronological memory of whether people arrived after us or were already
6 there when we arrived.
7 Q. The discussion that takes place on this day between
8 Mr. Sljivancanin and the ICRC man, where exactly does this take place,
9 near the hospital's main entrance, in the vicinity of the hospital, out in
10 the street somewhere near one of the hospital's entrances, and how far
11 from where you were standing?
12 A. Just about -- just in front of one of the entrances of the
13 hospital is my recollection. How far away we were standing? Well, close
14 enough for my cameraman to be able to film close-ups of both gentlemen, so
15 not that far away. But not in a position that I could precisely hear what
16 was being said between the two.
17 Q. Could you specify how long this discussion took, them talking in
18 the street?
19 A. I didn't say that they had spoken in the street; I said that they
20 had spoken just outside one of the entrances to the hospital. And I do
21 not have a precise recollection as to how long this conversation took
22 place, no.
23 Q. Can you perhaps remember something about this discussion? After
24 how long did the ICRC man take the unusual decision to make that statement
25 to you that you spoke about?
1 A. To me and to the other cameras that was -- that were there; it was
2 not to me individually or to Sky News but also to the BBC and to the ITN
3 cameraman and to the other journalists there. I'm not sure whether he
4 spoke to us first or whether Mr. Sljivancanin spoke to us first. Both
5 gentlemen spoke to us.
6 Q. Was Martin Bell, the BBC reporter, there too on the 20th?
7 A. Yes, he was. And he's also in the pictures that the Tribunal was
8 shown yesterday.
9 Q. You spent some time outside the hospital on the 20th watching the
10 evacuation take place. Do you remember how long you remained there?
11 A. No, I don't have a precise recollection of the time. It must have
12 been several hours at least, but I don't have a precise recollection. As
13 far as my recollections go, the buses only left towards the end of the
14 afternoon. So we must have spent a good few hours there. I do remember
15 wandering around the hospital grounds, and during that period we found all
16 those dead bodies that had not been buried. We must have been there five,
17 six, seven hours, something of that nature.
18 Q. Aside from this conversation that Mr. Sljivancanin had with the
19 ICRC man outside the hospital, did you see any other conversation between
20 Mr. Sljivancanin and the ICRC man in a different place perhaps?
21 A. Not that I can immediately recall, no. Not on that day. On other
22 days, yes. But on the 20th, if you're referring to the 20th, that's the
23 only conversation that I can recall.
24 Q. On the 20th, did you perhaps hear from anyone around the hospital
25 or from one of the JNA members that on the 19th, on the evening of the
1 19th, four JNA soldiers had come to grieve because they stepped on mines
2 in the vicinity of the hospital, just around the hospital?
3 A. No, we were not told that. And I'm surprised that you name it
4 because it's the kind of thing that the lieutenant, who we won't name,
5 would have told us, as he did immediately when we encountered him on the
6 12th of November, that one of his men had been wounded. He did not inform
7 us that -- as far as I can recall today that four JNA soldiers had been
8 wounded there then.
9 Q. Mr. van Lynden, can you please explain about the evacuation which
10 you filmed and watched. It lasted way into the afternoon. It had
11 commenced in the morning, I understand. Were the JNA members helping
12 along with the evacuation by helping to carry the wounded and stretchering
13 them into ambulances or doing anything along these lines?
14 A. I don't remember precisely a time when the evacuation began, let
15 me first put that straight; and yes, I do remember seeing JNA soldiers
16 helping in the evacuation of the wounded. And as far as I can recall,
17 most of the ambulances were military ambulances, not civilian ambulances.
18 Q. Did you perhaps notice health workers, the medical staff of the
19 Vukovar Hospital, during the evacuation? If so, what were they doing?
20 Were they just standing idly by, were they helping along, or what exactly?
21 Do you remember that?
22 A. I don't have a precise recollection of who was doing what on that
23 day. I mean, the evacuation was done. Those who needed to be stretchered
24 out of the hospital were stretchered out. Precisely who were doing the
25 carrying, I don't know. I do recall that some soldiers helped. I imagine
1 that some of the staff from the hospital helped. Then there was the mass
2 evacuation of what I would call the walking wounded, and civilians who
3 were not wounded in any direct way who walked to the buses. But I don't
4 have a precise recollection as to whom at any moment was doing what.
5 Q. Fair enough. You were in Vukovar from the early morning on the
6 20th to the late afternoon hours. Did you know that in Vukovar on the
7 20th, 1991, there were persons called Goran Hadzic and Zeljko Raznjatovic,
8 better known as Arkan?
9 A. I met both Goran Hadzic and Mr. Raznjatovic, as I've already
10 testified to this Court. I do not remember being told that they were in
11 Vukovar on the 20th of November and I certainly did not see them myself in
12 Vukovar on the 20th of November.
13 Q. About the 20th or perhaps the 21st, do you happen to know that on
14 the 20th in Vukovar a session of the SAO Krajina government was held? Is
15 this something that you knew about?
16 A. No, it is not.
17 Q. You say you had occasion to meet both Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan,
18 and Goran Hadzic. Under what circumstances, respectively?
19 A. The first time I met them was in Belgrade during a night I was
20 woken at about 1.00 or half past 1.00 in my hotel room. At that time we
21 were staying at the Intercontinental Hotel. And a man who had met with my
22 field producer earlier that week and who spoke English asked me to come
23 down because he said there was an important meeting for him to take me to.
24 As a correspondent in Beirut where life was very uncertain and such
25 meetings also took place, you take a risk on each occasion. But I decided
1 to take the risk. I went downstairs. I have to add, the field producer
2 lived in an apartment in Belgrade, and therefore was not in the hotel. I
3 was on my own. The man I met in the lobby was wearing a western
4 camouflage uniform and carrying a Heckler and Koch sub-machine-gun. He
5 took me to a car, BMW, with German plates, as I recall Frankfurt. The
6 driver of the car was also wearing a camouflaged uniform. I was then
7 driven into the heart of Belgrade. When we stopped, there were a number
8 of men, again in camouflage uniform, a group of 30 or 40 men, with their
9 faces blackened also, carrying a variety of weaponry, and I was then
10 brought into a small patisserie, which I was told later belonged to
11 Mr. Raznjatovic. There were people there, having a coffee, or a
12 slivovitz, a rakija, whichever. They were told to leave. I was given a
13 cup of coffee, and then Mr. Raznjatovic, together with Goran Hadzic,
14 entered the room and we had a meeting lasting, I don't know, I can't
15 remember precisely, 30 or 40 minutes. Mr. Raznjatovic was the one
16 speaking. He spoke relatively good English. As far as I recall, Mr.
17 Hadzic speak English at all. So the conversation was very much between
18 Mr. Raznjatovic and myself, and that was the first meeting I had with
19 these two gentlemen. I had a further meeting with both of them in Erdut
20 later on and had several meetings later with Mr. Raznjatovic also in
21 Belgrade and once in Pristina.
22 Q. Several meetings. Could you perhaps try to be more specific. Was
23 that in this pastry shop or a different location?
24 A. The meetings in the Erdut area were at his barracks. The -- in
25 Belgrade -- I think he came, actually, to the hotel. But here I don't
1 have a precise recollection. But these are very short meetings, not
2 anything of any length.
3 Q. You've been around. You have toured many front lines. You have
4 met many warriors. We are talking now about Goran Hadzic and Zeljko
5 Raznjatovic, Arkan. I would like to know what you believed their
6 relationship to be like, their mutual relationship. Did they trust each
7 other? Was there perhaps a certain amount of dissidence between them?
8 Just your impression, based on your impression of their behaviour in your
10 A. It is purely an impression, but it seemed that the two were at
11 least politically of one view. It seemed to me that the two men were
12 quite different. One was a man who did not hide the fact that he led a
13 militia and that he was comfortable with guns and with killing, and the
14 other man, at least in my impression, was more of a political figure that
15 us say, not a military figure. How close or not they were was very
16 difficult for me to say in one meeting, where most of the conversation was
17 only with one of them because I couldn't have a conversation with the
18 other, as we didn't have a common language.
19 Q. In answer to one of my earlier questions you said that even after
20 your return from Vukovar you were still in touch with some members of that
21 unit with whom you stayed, the first time on the 12th and 13th and the
22 next time on the 18th, 19th, and 20th of November. What I want to know
23 is: While talking to those people, did they ever tell you that they had
24 been fired at from the direction of the Vukovar Hospital ever during their
25 time there?
1 A. Just to set the record straight, we didn't encounter them on the
2 18th of November. But your basic question, the answer is: No, I do not
3 recall --
4 Q. I apologise. My mistake.
5 A. The answer to your basic question as to whether they had ever said
6 to us that they had been shot at from the hospital, the answer to that is:
7 I do not recall them ever saying that, no.
8 Q. I would like to ask you about the conversations and contacts that
9 you had following your return from Vukovar. Did any of them perhaps
10 object to any of the reports that you produced on behalf of Sky News
11 surrounding events in Vukovar; and if so, what were these objections about
13 A. This is again with the guards unit that you are referring to?
14 Q. Yes, yes. That's the one I'm referring to. The captain,
15 lieutenant, and the other officer. The people that you were in touch
17 A. The first thing that has to be said is: They would not have been
18 in a position to see my reports as they were broadcast because they were
19 in Vukovar at the time and would not have had access to a television there
20 to watch Sky News. I don't have a precise recollection, but I think on
21 the evening that we went out to dinner with them that we actually showed
22 them the reports that we had done on VHS. Major criticism, I don't
23 remember any major criticism. If there was any criticism, it would have
24 come from the captain, Captain Maric. There may have been something that
25 he was not particularly happy about. I do remember that they laughed, as
1 we did, that the only comment from the federal Ministry of Defence in
2 criticism was the fact that we had filmed and included pictures of empty
3 ammunition cases in the streets of Vukovar and they had told us that they
4 didn't want to show the military leaving debris on the streets of Vukovar
5 and the captain and the others thought that that was as ridiculous as we
6 did. But I don't remember any specific criticism that any of them made of
7 the reports that I did, no.
8 Q. But there was fewer [Realtime transcript read in error "viewer"]
9 criticism, as far as you can remember. Is that right?
10 A. Viewer criticism? Am I getting the translation right here?
11 Q. Fewer criticisms or minor criticisms.
12 A. There is a difference for the translators, please. There may have
13 been. I can't -- I mean, I can't recall what was said in a -- one
14 conversation more than 14 years ago as far as a minor criticism. I don't
15 remember them being particularly angry. I think that they were perfectly
16 happy of the picture that we gave of the unit and what they were doing on
17 the 12th and 13th. And -- nor do I recall them being particularly unhappy
18 with any of the stories that we had filmed on the 18th, 19th, or 20th
20 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, is this time for a
21 break? I will not have many questions more, but I don't think that I will
22 conclude in the next five minutes or so. So perhaps this would be a good
23 time for a break.
24 JUDGE PARKER: It will give you time to collect your final
25 thoughts if we have a break anyway, Mr. Bulatovic.
1 We will resume at five minutes to 6.00.
2 --- Recess taken at 5.32 p.m.
3 --- On resuming at 5.59 p.m.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Bulatovic.
5 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
6 Q. Mr. van Lynden, in your evidence yesterday you mentioned several
7 times a colonel whose last name you couldn't remember. You thought that
8 perhaps he was called Pavlovic. I would like now to play Exhibit 125,
9 which we saw yesterday. Would you please watch this video excerpt and
10 tell us whether you recognise this Colonel Pavlovic and let's see whether
11 we can identify him closer. This was the excerpt showing the negotiations
12 in Mitnica.
13 [Videotape played]
14 THE WITNESS: Yes. The officer in question is the one on the left
15 side of the picture in the middle -- on the table, in the middle of the
16 JNA delegation. That's the officer I was referring to. I don't know if
17 he was a Pukovnik or a Potpukovnik. I'm not -- I cannot recall his name
18 precisely, I think it was Pavlovic, but that's the officer I was referring
19 to. This one.
20 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Is that the officer. Let us identify him. This is Colonel
22 Pavkovic, Nebojsa Pavkovic. So you were close.
23 A. Not bad after 14 years, maybe.
24 Q. Yes. In this same excerpt that we can see now, are we now seeing
25 the three Croatian representatives who came to negotiate?
1 A. We are.
2 Q. Thank you. I asked you just a bit ago, and then you said you
3 didn't remember on the 20th of November who gave the statement, who was
4 the first to give a statement, after an argument broke out between
5 Sljivancanin and the ICRC representative. You said that you didn't
6 remember who was the first one to do that. Let me give you the position
7 of my client. You confirmed that Mr. Bell was there. My client claims
8 that after Mr. Bell heard what Mr. Borsinger stated, he asked from
9 Mr. Sljivancanin to respond to Mr. Borsinger's allegations, and that his
10 statement, that is to say the statement of my client, was a reaction to
11 the statement given by the ICRC representative. Do you think this is
13 A. Yes. But it's also possible the other way around. I don't have a
14 precise recollection, but it is certainly a possibility.
15 Q. Thank you. You said that on the 19th, 20th, 18th there were
16 numerous representatives of various media, electronic media, press, and so
17 on, and that there was an ITN representative there.
18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the name.
19 THE WITNESS: There were not -- I would not call it numerous, no.
20 Most of the journalists were stuck in Belgrade. That was one of the
21 things I noticed about those days, that there were relatively few
22 journalists there, but those that I am aware that were there was a team
23 from the BBC with Martin Bell as the correspondent, a team from ITN with
24 Michael Nicholson as the correspondent and then, as I recall, a number of
25 Serb journalists. But not a large number. It was not numerous, it was a
1 relatively small group.
2 Q. Thank you. Can you please tell us what is ITN? What kind of an
3 outlet is it?
4 A. ITN is -- stands for Independent Television News. It was part of
5 the first commercial television launched in Britain in the 1950s. I --
6 they were -- they are terrestrial, not satellite, and they are the
7 competition in Britain for the BBC, which is the state broadcaster.
8 Q. Does the name Alex Thompson mean anything to you in terms of him
9 being an ITN reporter?
10 A. Yes, it does. He was at the time working for channel 4 news
11 rather than for the main ITN bulletin which went out on the ITV channel.
12 Channel 4 is a separate channel with a -- rather long on news that goes
13 out once a day, I believe it's 7.00. I'm aware that Mr. Thompson -- and I
14 think I actually mentioned him in my testimony to the Court yesterday, had
15 been in Vukovar prior to our visit there on the 12th of November and that
16 Mr. Sljivancanin actually mentioned having been with Mr. Thompson before
17 that date and that Mr. Thompson had been in Vukovar.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I've concluded my
20 cross-examination. I have no further questions.
21 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Bulatovic.
22 Mrs. Tuma.
23 MS. TUMA: Thank you, Your Honour. Just a few questions.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel.
25 MS. TUMA: Yes, Your Honour, just a few questions and then one
1 clarification from the Defence, please.
2 Re-examined by Ms. Tuma:
3 Q. I will start on the 19th. What route did you take leaving Vukovar
4 going to Belgrade on the 19th November, 1991?
5 A. As far as I can recall, the same route as we took when entering
6 Vukovar on the 19th of November; that would have been through Negoslavci,
7 Oriolik, Tovarnik, Sid, and then the highway to Belgrade.
8 Q. And when you arrived to Belgrade, can you remember if it was
9 daylight, dusk, or dark at the time?
10 A. I think it was dark.
11 Q. You think that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Could it --
14 A. It was almost certainly dark.
15 Q. Why do you see that?
16 A. Firstly because it was November and we would have arrived there at
17 around 6.00 or possibly a little later, but around that time.
18 Q. Okay. On the 20th, when you returned -- when you entered Vukovar,
19 did you then -- were you then stopped by any APC on the bridge?
20 A. On the?
21 Q. On the bridge in Vukovar.
22 A. I don't remember being on a bridge in Vukovar at all on the 20th.
23 We would have -- we would have entered, again driving Tovarnik, Oriolik,
24 Negoslavci, and into Vukovar, and I don't remember crossing a bridge. The
25 only bridge I ever crossed to get to was the bridge at Erdut to cross the
1 Danube, but we didn't have to do that if you came on the southern route.
2 And as far as being stopped at Erdut on the bridge there was definitely a
3 check-point. Yes, we would have had to go through check-points again on
4 the 20th to reach Vukovar and show that we had permission to enter the
6 Q. Okay.
7 MS. TUMA: And I would like to have a clarification from the
8 Defence for Mr. Sljivancanin. Can we take it that the Defence of
9 Mr. Sljivancanin accept that Mr. Sljivancanin met the ICRC delegate for --
10 on the 18th November 1991, following the negotiation on that day?
11 [Defence counsel confer]
12 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can cannot accept
13 what was just proposed by my learned friend because Mr. van Lynden
14 described the contact between my client and the ICRC representative in
15 quite a different light than what is now being proposed by the OTP.
16 Therefore, we cannot accept this as an undisputed fact. Mr. van Lynden is
17 still here; we can ask him to give further explanations as to how he saw
18 Mr. Sljivancanin. And based on what he said, I took it that he knew
19 absolutely nothing about the contact between Mr. Sljivancanin and the ICRC
21 MS. TUMA: I would like to ask a few questions to the witness on
22 this topic.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
24 MS. TUMA: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Q. On the 9 -- on the 18th November, can you once again describe what
1 you were encountering that day in terms of this specific topic.
2 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please speak closer to the
3 microphone. Thank you.
4 MS. TUMA: Yeah, absolutely. Thanks.
5 THE WITNESS: Yes, I can. I recall meeting Mr. Sljivancanin and
6 ICRC representative in Negoslavci before the negotiations took part, and
7 in fact being told by Mr. Sljivancanin, who we had met earlier, that those
8 negotiations were to take place not in Negoslavci but elsewhere and then
9 being told to follow in a convoy with JNA vehicles and the ICRC delegate
10 to the white farm-house that we've also discussed during the past two
11 days. I am not certain whether Mr. Sljivancanin was at the negotiations
12 themselves, and I cannot say with certainty whether I saw Mr. Sljivancanin
13 talking to the ICRC delegate after the negotiations, but I certainly saw
14 the two of them talking before the negotiations on the 18th of November in
15 the village of Negoslavci.
16 MS. TUMA:
17 Q. Thank you. And when you're saying "before," how -- how -- how --
18 can you say -- before, how close to the negotiations?
19 A. Oh, I mean, this was just before the convoy drove away to the
20 farm-house where the negotiations took place.
21 Q. Okay. And did you take any video of that? Did you film anything
22 of that incident or that event?
23 A. Probably. I don't recall using it. I think the only video that
24 we used that day of the negotiations was of the pictures the cameraman
25 took inside the farm-house. But it is quite possible that the cameraman
1 also filmed those talks on the road at Negoslavci. I'm not sure whether
2 that was the case or not, but I am absolutely positive that I did meet
3 Mr. Sljivancanin that day and he was talking to the ICRC delegate. But as
4 I say, where I am certain is that it happened in Negoslavci before the
5 negotiations. I'm not sure whether it happened during or after the
7 MS. TUMA: I would like to show a video, please, and that is with
8 an ERN number for the video 00000686 and the 65 ter number is 311. And
9 this is an extract of a longer, larger piece. And I want the witness to
10 have a look at it.
11 [Videotape played]
12 THE WITNESS: I can immediately describe this. Mr. Sljivancanin
13 is standing there. The ICRC representative is standing there. And the
14 man in the back with the glasses is my producer, the field producer, Zoran
15 Kusovac. I imagine these were not pictures taken by my cameraman but by
16 another cameraman who was there. But these were the pictures that -- this
17 is the event I was referring to, the talks in Negoslavci, the meeting in
18 Negoslavci, prior to the beginning of the negotiations.
19 MS. TUMA:
20 Q. Okay. Thank you.
21 MS. TUMA: Thank you, Your Honour --
22 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour --
23 MS. TUMA: I would like to tender --
24 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour --
25 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic.
1 Just a minute, please, Ms. Tuma.
2 MS. TUMA: I would like to --
3 JUDGE PARKER: No. I'll hear Mr. Lukic.
4 Yes, Mr. Lukic.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I know that my colleague has led this
6 witness's evidence, but I would like to clarify something. This is why I
7 took the floor.
8 We have no objections to have this video excerpt exhibited. We
9 also have no problems in putting forward anything about the contacts
10 between Mr. Sljivancanin and the other person on the 18th. However, this
11 is something, this exhibit is something that the OTP had during the
12 examination-in-chief and they did not opt to use this. In
13 examination-in-chief, Mr. van Lynden did not mention anything about the
14 location of the contacts with my client; it was down now by Ms. Tuma. We
15 have not had a chance to cross-examine on this issue. This is why we
16 would like to be allowed to put a question to the issue in order to
17 clarify this additional issue raised by the Prosecution now.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic, my recollection is always subject to
19 correction, but it is my recollection that the meeting at Negoslavci was
20 specifically mentioned in the course of the evidence in chief of the
21 witness on the 18th, and it was the lack of cross-examination,
22 particularly by your Defence team, in respect of the evidence about that
23 which has led Mrs. Tuma to seek to have clarified whether you were
24 accepting, unquestionably, the evidence. And it's because the answer is
25 given: No, you were not, that she is now proceeding to tender this piece
1 of video.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I fully understand Mrs. Tuma's
3 approach, but I think that the misunderstanding stems from one fact, and
4 nobody asked the witness about this, namely, were negotiations held in
5 Negoslavci. Based on the examination-in-chief and based on the answers
6 obtained during the cross-examination, it is indisputable that
7 Mr. Sljivancanin met with Mr. Borsinger on the 18th before Negoslavci;
8 however, the negotiations were not held in Negoslavci. This is something
9 that we wanted to clarify, and the witness clearly stated that they went
10 from that location to negotiations. That's all I wanted to clarify,
11 otherwise everything else is indisputable. This is something that the
12 Prosecutor can clarify with the witness now, and there will be no further
14 JUDGE PARKER: There should be no difficulty. I think the
15 evidence in chief yesterday was clear. I remember picturing the drive in
16 vehicles to a white farm-house from Negoslavci. That, at least, is my
17 recollection, faulty as it often is.
18 Mrs. Tuma, you seek to tender the video extract?
19 MS. TUMA: Yes, absolutely. Thank you, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, this will be Exhibit Number 140.
22 MS. TUMA:
23 Q. Finally a question to Witness van Lynden to clarify so there's no
24 misunderstanding on this issue.
25 A. We arrived in Negoslavci. There we met Mr. Sljivancanin. There
1 we also met the ICRC delegate; they met each other and spoke to each
2 other. We were told that negotiations would take place elsewhere, and we
3 were told to take -- become part of a convoy that went to these
4 negotiations. The drive, which I have been asked about today, took around
5 10 or 15 minutes. It was to a white farm-house. That's where the
6 negotiations took place. The only thing I can say absolutely is that I
7 remember absolutely and that the pictures bear out is that we saw and met
8 Mr. Sljivancanin in Negoslavci, that we met the ICRC delegate, and that
9 the two gentlemen met each other in Negoslavci. I cannot, with precision,
10 recall whether Mr. Sljivancanin was later present at the negotiations or
11 after the negotiations and whether he spoke to the ICRC delegate then.
12 Q. Thank you, Mr. van Lynden.
13 MS. TUMA: I'm done, so thank you so much, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mrs. Tuma.
15 You'll be pleased to know, sir, that that brings us to the end of
16 your evidence. The Chamber would express its gratitude for your
17 attendance and for the assistance that you've been able to give us. You
18 may of course now go and do what you will.
19 THE WITNESS: Back to work is what it's called, Your Honour.
20 Thank you very much.
21 [The witness withdrew]
22 JUDGE PARKER: While you're changing batons there, could I mention
23 that in the course of yesterday Defence counsel, I think it was Mr. Vasic,
24 particularly mentioned a matter that had been hanging over from last year,
25 that is a document that was offered as an exhibit but was marked for
1 identification pending examination of the authenticity. He indicated
2 yesterday for the Defence, as I understand it, that there was no question
3 now of the authenticity and that the document might be received as an
4 exhibit. Can that be attended to at this moment?
5 MR. MOORE: Well, I'm very grateful. It's General Raseta's
6 signature was the signature that was in question. It was marked for
7 identification, I presume there was no dispute, and now it would become an
8 exhibit. I'm afraid I can't remember which exhibit it was; I'm sure Mr.
9 Vasic will know.
10 JUDGE PARKER: I'm looking to the backs of the heads of the court
12 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that's precisely why I
13 got up to my feet. This was document MFI40. This is precisely the
14 document with the disputed signature.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Vasic.
16 The document MFI40 will become Exhibit 40.
17 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
18 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore.
19 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, yes. The next witness is a protected
20 witness and is available and is in a room to give evidence.
21 JUDGE PARKER: The technical people tell us that it will take at
22 least ten minutes to prepare the sound distortion system for the witness.
23 So we will need now to adjourn to enable that to be done before we can
25 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.
1 --- Break taken at 6.24 p.m.
2 [The witness entered court]
3 --- On resuming at 6.39 p.m.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Good evening, sir. Would you please read aloud the
5 affirmation on the card that is offered to you now.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
7 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Please sit down.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore.
11 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much. As Your Honour is aware, this a
12 protected witness, also with voice and visual distortion. May I
13 initially, please, tender the -- what I will call a confidential document
14 to this witness to confirm the details.
15 WITNESS: WITNESS P-031
16 [Witness answered through interpreter]
17 Examined by Mr. Moore:
18 MR. MOORE: Might I make an application, please, for that document
19 to become an exhibit.
20 JUDGE PARKER: It will be an exhibit under seal.
21 THE REGISTRAR: This will be exhibit hundred -- number 141 under
22 seal, Your Honours.
23 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much. The pseudonym here is P-031.
24 Q. Witness 31, might I just deal with a number of statements that you
25 made about the incidents at Vukovar. Now, I think it's right that you
1 have with you in a small plastic package a number of statements. Is that
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And just for completeness sake and understanding, this is a
5 package of statements which the Defence have had disclosed and I want to
6 deal with them by way of sequence in very shortened form to explain how
7 they were compiled. Do you follow?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you very much. The witness statement, the page number is
10 00085845 for the court record, and the witness and I call it "statement
11 1." That was a statement I think that was compiled on the 27th of July,
13 Is that right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. It is a short statement, one page and about a third. And I think
16 it was released in Zagreb. Is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You have had an opportunity of reading that statement. It is a
19 short statement. In general terms, does it outline the detail of the
20 allegations or the evidence that you will subsequently give?
21 A. Yes, it does, briefly.
22 Q. And you can answer questions from the Defence and indeed the Court
23 about that statement.
24 Let us move on to the next document which, for the court record,
25 is 00320131. It is a document of the -- of this Tribunal. It is in typed
1 form, but it is not signed by you. Is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And that statement is dated the 21st of June, 1995. Is that
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, with regard to that statement, there was an interviewer or an
7 investigator called Dzuro. Do you remember that, that particular
9 A. Yes, I do remember.
10 Q. The statement is nine pages long. Now, why did you not sign it?
11 A. I did not sign it because at the time I did not agree to appear
12 here at the Tribunal and testify. I had an agreement with Mr. Dzuro,
13 because that's what he had asked for, to give him an account of what had
14 occurred in Vukovar. This was a statement which did not have the nature
15 of an official document, and that was the reason I did not sign it.
16 Q. I think it's equally correct to say, however, that there was
17 attached to that document what I will call annex A and annex B. They are
18 two drawings. Annex A is at page 00320191, and annex B on 00320193. Is
19 that right that the document has attached to it drawings which were
20 completed by yourself and Mr. Dzuro?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Thank you very much. Now, may I move then to the document that
23 you did sign. I call it "statement 3." That is on the following page
24 number; it is 00400275. And the statement is dated the 25th and 26th of
25 April, 1996. Is that correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And that is a document that was signed by you as being an accurate
3 record of what had happened to you in what I will call the Vukovar
4 incident. Is that right or not?
5 A. That's right.
6 Q. And then finally, I think it's right to say that you had been
7 asked to give evidence in the case of Mr. Dokmanovic, and that you refused
8 to give evidence in that trial. Is that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Would you, in shortened form, please tell us why it was you did
11 not want to give evidence in the trial of Dokmanovic.
12 A. In the Dokmanovic trial, I believed there was not a sufficient
13 number of other statements. I did not see this gentleman and I was not
14 able to identify this gentleman; however, other people told me that he had
15 been present at Ovcara. It was at the insistence of Mr. Dzuro, who was in
16 charge of the investigation, that I agreed to state everything that I
17 experienced and suffered as well as saw and heard at the time. I
18 believed, just by virtue of being heard some stories from others, I was
19 not at the time sufficiently qualified to give evidence before this
21 Q. And perhaps to assist all parties, again you can be asked
22 questions on it. The conversation statement with Mr. Dzuro did implicate
23 Mr. Dokmanovic, but in your statement which was subsequently compiled by
24 you, you indicated that you could not give direct evidence against Mr.
25 Dokmanovic. Is that correct?
1 A. That's correct.
2 Q. May I then -- now I move off from these statements and deal with
3 one or two matters in the remaining time. I'd like to deal, please, in
4 general terms -- I think it's right to say that in November 1991 you were
5 in Vukovar, a resident in Vukovar. Is that correct?
6 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
8 MR. MOORE:
9 Q. Did you at any time go to the hospital in Vukovar in the middle of
10 November 1991?
11 A. Yes, I did.
12 Q. Prior to going to the hospital - and I do not wish to know your
13 address - where had you been located or living?
14 A. In Vukovar.
15 Q. And prior to moving to the Vukovar hospital, what were the
16 conditions like that you were living in?
17 A. Well, we had been living under very difficult conditions. The war
18 had already begun. There had already been a lot of firing. It was risky
19 to go out and to move around, go just about anywhere you would have needed
20 to go under normal circumstances.
21 Q. Why did you go to the Vukovar Hospital?
22 A. I went to the Vukovar Hospital because my work dictated so. I
23 had a work assignment.
24 Q. After the -- the fall of Vukovar, where were you then?
25 A. After the fall of Vukovar, I was inside the shelter in my
2 Q. And did you leave that shelter?
3 A. Yes. I left the shelter on the 19th of November, 1991. I went to
4 the hospital, to the Vukovar Hospital.
5 Q. And why did you go to the Vukovar Hospital on the 19th?
6 A. I went to the Vukovar Hospital because we had been told once we
7 had left the shelter that those who wished to leave for Serbia should go
8 to the parking lot near the Vukovar market, and those who wished to go to
9 Croatia should go to the Vukovar Hospital.
10 Q. And when you went to the Vukovar Hospital, where did you believe
11 that you were going to be evacuated to?
12 A. I believed - and this was the gist of what we had been told - that
13 we would be evacuated to Croatia.
14 Q. Are you able to estimate how many people had gone to the Vukovar
15 Hospital by the 19th with the belief that they were going to be evacuated
16 to Croatia?
17 A. On the 19th of November, 1991, when I reached the hospital, there
18 were very many civilians there, residents of the town of Vukovar. As for
19 an estimate, I think I'd be hard-put to be very specific about this. All
20 I know is that those people who were at the hospital, who happened to be
21 at the hospital on that day, throughout that afternoon and until late at
22 night, these people were being taken away in lorries to a collection place
23 called Velepromet Vukovar.
24 Q. When you went to the Vukovar Hospital, did you go alone or with
25 anyone else?
1 A. I went with my wife, but there were other people who came with us,
2 those who had been in the shelter with us.
3 Q. How long did you stay in the Vukovar Hospital?
4 A. I stayed in the Vukovar Hospital that entire day and the entire
5 night, until the morning of the 20th. It was about 7.30 or 8.00 the next
6 morning that we were requested to leave the hospital building and assemble
7 outside in the hospital yard. It was from there that we were loaded on to
8 buses that had already been waiting for us in Gunduliceva Street. They
9 took us from there to the Vukovar barracks.
10 Q. I would just like to slow the pace down a little. Can we deal,
11 please, with the conditions in the hospital on the evening of the 19th and
12 the morning of the 20th. Can you, in general terms, describe to the Court
13 what the situation was like in the hospital.
14 A. The situation in the hospital was difficult on the 19th, and later
15 on when many of the people there had already left for Velepromet, there
16 was still many wounded and sick in the hospital as well as some of the
17 staff who were not medical staff, but rather just help workers, employees
18 of the hospital. There is also the fact that in addition to the
19 employees, the medical and non-medical staff, some of their family members
20 were allowed to stay in the hospital.
21 Q. Are you able to recollect where it was you stayed in the hospital
22 on the evening of the 19th and the early morning and morning of the 20th?
23 A. On the 19th when I reached the hospital, I was put in the x-ray
24 room. This is on the ground floor -- or rather, in the cellar of the
25 hospital building. I spent the night there, and next morning between 7.30
1 and 8.00 I went outside together with everyone else at the -- taking the
2 back exit of the hospital building. There were JNA soldiers waiting for
3 us there, and they started separating the men from the women and children.
4 The men went to the left and the rest went to the right.
5 Q. Thank you. Can I just deal with the x-ray dark-room which you
6 have mentioned. Can you remember the names of any people who were in that
7 same room with you?
8 A. I can. Throughout that night with me and my wife in that room
9 Dr. Aleksandra Kajba, Dr. Ana Matos, Dr. Vera Kutuzovic-Martic. An x-ray
10 engineer called Adam Ivankovac and his wife Viktoria. Mr. Emil Cakalic
11 and his wife. There was an elderly married couple there who were the
12 parents of Dr. Bosanac's husband. The man's name was Dragutin and I'm not
13 sure about the lady. They were an elderly married couple. There was
14 another x-ray engineer there called Milicko Vukovic. There was a
15 photographer there called Tomislav Mihovic. There were two ladies there,
16 Marija Rehak and Zdenka Zulj, as well as another man who had worked as an
17 electrician for the hospital. His name was Goran Vidos.
18 Q. Do you know --
19 MR. MOORE: May I just ask this one question and then I will stop.
20 Q. Do you know if the people you have mentioned here, in this room,
21 whether they -- any of those people travelled with you to the JNA barracks
22 or not?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And just for completeness, who are the ones that you recollect
25 went to the JNA barracks, please?
1 A. Among the persons I have just mentioned as being with me in the
2 x-ray rooms, in the dark-rooms, Mihovic Tomislav and Goran Vidos were
3 later taken with me, first to the barracks and then eventually to Ovcara.
4 MR. MOORE: Perhaps that -- perhaps that's an appropriate moment.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
6 We have reached 7.00, which is the time we must finish for the
7 day. We will continue the evidence tomorrow at 2.15. We'd be grateful if
8 you would return then. Thank you.
9 We will now adjourn until tomorrow.
10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.03 p.m.,
11 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 25th day of
12 January, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.