Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3747

1 Monday, 6 February 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.46 p.m.

5 JUDGE PARKER: I am sorry that technical problems with the

6 videolink have caused a delay in the start of today's proceedings. We are

7 now ready.

8 Mrs. Tuma, you are to take the witness. Is that so? Thank you.

9 If the court staff could make the connection, please.


11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon. Would you be kind enough to

13 take the card that is given to you by the court officer and read aloud the

14 affirmation on the card.

15 JUDGE PARKER: We'll doing it without reading the affirmation,

16 thank you.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly swear that I will speak

18 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much. Now, Mrs. Tuma will be asking

20 you some questions. She will commence now. Thank you.

21 Yes, Mrs. Tuma.

22 MS. TUMA: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 [Witness testifies via videolink]

24 Examination by Ms. Tuma:

25 Q. Mrs. Dosen, do you hear me? So I have contact with you.

Page 3748

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And my name is Marie Tuma, and I am a trial attorney here for the

3 Office of the Prosecutor, and I will do the examination-in-chief and put

4 some questions to you. I hope that you are comfortable there?

5 A. Yes, thank you.

6 Q. Okay. Mrs. Dosen, I would like you to tell us your personal

7 background, if you were married and to whom. We can start there.

8 A. My name is Ljubica Dosen. I'm married to Martin Dosen, a Croat

9 defender who went missing in the Vukovar Hospital.

10 Q. When did you marry? When was that?

11 A. Back in 1975.

12 Q. And did that marriage bring any children?

13 A. Yes, Tanja Dosen, our daughter.

14 Q. And when was she born?

15 A. In 1977.

16 Q. And where were you living with your family?

17 A. In Vukovar, Mose Pijade Street, as well as at Olajnica, 12/24.

18 That's all in Vukovar.

19 Q. Where did you have your family house? On which address was that?

20 A. Our home was in Mose Pijade Street, number 32, in Vukovar.

21 Q. And then you mentioned another address as well. What was that

22 referring to?

23 A. Yes. It's a flat at Olajnica in Vukovar. 12/24, third floor.

24 Q. And during the marriage, what kind of living did you do? What

25 kind of -- how -- in what way did you earn the money to live upon?

Page 3749

1 A. I was working at Borovo, the factory. I had been working there

2 for 20 years, in fact. But then my husband became a professional

3 fisherman, and we opened a restaurant on the banks of the Danube. I

4 cooked the fish, and we had plenty of guests in the summer. We sold our

5 own fish there, the fish that my husband would catch in the Danube.

6 That's what he did. He was a professional fisherman.

7 Q. And your husband's name, what is that?

8 A. Martin Dosen.

9 Q. Where were he coming from?

10 A. He is a native of Vukovar.

11 Q. Did he have any siblings?

12 A. Yes. He had two brothers and two sisters.

13 Q. Can you please name the brothers, the name of the brothers?

14 A. Tadija Dosen was his elder brother and Ivan Dosen as his younger

15 brother. His sister's was Ilica Dosen, and the other sister's name Marija

16 Dosen.

17 Q. Was your husband ever involved in any kind of political activities

18 as far as your recollection is?

19 A. My husband was never involved in politics in any way. He was

20 never a member of any political organisation or anything like that until

21 the commotion in Vukovar began. It was at this point that he joined the

22 HDZ.

23 Q. And when was that? Can you tell us that if you remember?

24 A. That was -- I can't remember exactly, but it may have been in

25 April or May 1990, thereabouts, I believe.

Page 3750

1 Q. In terms of his being as a member of the HDZ party, did he take

2 any actions in terms of his membership?

3 A. Well, he was a party member. He was not a member of any of their

4 boards or the presidency. He was simply an HDZ member, which he believed

5 to be a good thing. He agreed with what they were saying. He was a

6 sympathiser, a political sympathiser. It was that simple.

7 Q. Were you at any point when your husband so to say were dealing or

8 supporting of the HDZ party, did you have the chance or the possibilities

9 to get to know the members of that party through their faces or through

10 their names?

11 A. I was not a member of the HDZ myself, or any other political party

12 for that matter. I did not know who their president was at the time, or

13 where they met, or if they had any meetings, in fact. I was mostly

14 dealing with our family. I looked after our children, and I was never

15 involved in politics at all.

16 Q. Okay. Thank you. And when did the conflict, the armed conflict

17 started, around?

18 A. The way I see things, it all began in May in Borovo Selo when the

19 attack occurred against the Croatian police officers. It was then that

20 the quarrels began as well as the separation. There was a mass exodus of

21 the Serb population from Vukovar, and one could clearly feel, as early as

22 then, that something wasn't right and that people were starting to go

23 their own ways. Up until this point in time, we had been managing to have

24 proper friendly relations. Most of my friends, as a matter of fact, were

25 Serbs more than Croats. We didn't really believe this to be that

Page 3751

1 important, but at this point in time, one clearly had the feeling that

2 something would not be right.

3 Q. You have mentioned here May, can you clarify what year you are

4 talking about?

5 A. I was not physically present in Borovo Selo myself. Those were

6 stories and rumours that I heard. People were saying that a rebellion had

7 broken out there, the so-called log revolution. They said it was no

8 longer possible to go there, and they sent a team of Croatian police

9 officers to check what was going on. Based on what others were telling me

10 at the time, a massacre occurred there. They killed a number of our lads,

11 just because they were not the same ethnic group as them. They were from

12 the police force. Now we call it the MUP, the M-U-P, and they wouldn't

13 have any of those chequer-boards, the symbol that they wore on their caps,

14 and that's why they committed this massacre and slew those lads over

15 there. I wasn't there myself personally, but I know that this happened.

16 Q. What year was it? You mentioned the month May. What year is it?

17 A. May 1990 -- 1991. I think -- I think it was 1990.

18 Q. Did Mr. Dosen, Martin Dosen, take any actions himself when there

19 was an ongoing conflict, armed conflict ongoing in the area of Vukovar?

20 You mentioned earlier here that you presented him as a Croat defender.

21 When was that when he became a Croat defender?

22 A. When the whole thing began, up until August 1990, we had been

23 managing to get on with our lives in Vukovar, in a manner of speaking.

24 But then what we started noticing is that in the surrounding areas, on the

25 outskirts, in the villages of Brsadin and other villages, you could no

Page 3752

1 longer access those areas. And then in Vukovar people started organising,

2 setting up some sort of guard duty so that they could not approach from

3 the Danube or from those villages and reach the centre of town. Serbs

4 where beginning to leave Vukovar en masse and most of those staying behind

5 were Croats. Their wives and children would also stay behind, and that

6 was the worst thing, only the men had gone. And then the shelling and the

7 firing began, and we suddenly understood that this would lead to no good.

8 But there was no way out at this point. We had to adapt and try to get on

9 with our lives because there was no way out. The only way out would have

10 been across those villages because at this point in time, we were

11 encircled.

12 Q. Mrs. Dosen, I asked you the question if you remember when

13 Mr. Dosen got to be a Croat defender. You mention here August 1990. Can

14 we be -- agree that it must have been the year 1991 instead? It's sort of

15 the common knowledge here.

16 A. Excuse me, what I meant was 1991, because in August 1991 my

17 husband was wounded by a shell. Of course, he was on his way to get some

18 food in one of our department stores. He was hit by a piece of shrapnel

19 in the leg and he was hospitalised.

20 I'm sorry for saying 1990. 1991 was the year I had in mind. It

21 was in August 1991 that he returned back home. And then he said that --

22 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... for that please. We will

23 take that further on when it comes to if and when he was wounded.

24 But we can agree upon that it was the year 1991. And you talked,

25 you said here that Martin Dosen here was involved as a Croat defender.

Page 3753

1 What was he doing as a Croat defender?

2 A. August.

3 Q. What was he doing as a Croat defender? Was he engaged in

4 something special as a Croat defender at the time in August 1991 and

5 further on during the autumn 1991?

6 A. It was in autumn [as interpreted] 1991 that he joined in actively.

7 But then the shelling began, this is something that I need to explain,

8 that a lot of shops were damage. There was no water or electricity by

9 this time, and he joined forces with his fellow fighters and friends in

10 order to collect whatever food was left in those shops as well as items of

11 clothing and candles for lighting. They all gathered at one place and

12 these things were distributed to Vukovar's residents, those who were in

13 need. He was a member of the staff that was in charge of the supplies of

14 the town of Vukovar. The women, children and men, everybody, they were

15 told to come to the Nama department store so that they could be given

16 food, medicines, candles, whatever. Because at this point in time we had

17 run out of water, electricity, and all we had on a daily basis was

18 non-stop shelling.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Vasic.

20 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I'm sorry for

21 interrupting but there is one thing in the transcript on page 7, line 3.

22 I think the witness said that her husband joined in actively in August

23 1991 and what the transcript says is autumn 1991. I think there's an

24 error there; it's probably a misinterpretation.

25 JUDGE PARKER: If could you sort that out, please, Mrs. Tuma.

Page 3754

1 MS. TUMA: Thank you, Your Honour, I will.

2 Q. Mrs. Dosen, we need to have one more -- an answer from you in

3 order clarify some translation issues here in courtroom. So one more time

4 I'm asking you, when did your husband Martin Dosen became actively joined

5 the Croat defenders in 1991? Can you give us a more clear answer there,

6 please?

7 A. August 1991. I would consider that to be autumn.

8 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Dosen. Now that is clarified.

9 So from August 1991, he was a member, so to say, or active as a

10 Croat defender. And you mention here that the city was run out of water.

11 Were there any other possibilities to have access to water than by through

12 the normal ways, so to say? Did you have that in Vukovar? And was there

13 a possibility for the people to get hold of water or were they in

14 difficulties in that sense? Thank you.

15 A. You could go to privates home because some of the private homes

16 had wells in their gardens. Arctic wells. And some of us who were living

17 in those residential buildings would go there to fetch water. But in

18 order to reach those houses, you had to cross a large clearing, but they

19 found out soon enough that people were crossing that clearing in a bid to

20 fetch water for their household, so they started shelling the clearing and

21 many people were hit on their way to fetch water.

22 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Dosen. How do you know that, that they were hit

23 by shelling while trying to get hold of water through those wells?

24 A. My building at Olajnica was number 12 and that is across the way

25 from Kidriceva Street where those houses were. You could see it from your

Page 3755

1 window, and we knew anyway. I was one of those people who had to cross

2 that area in order to get water. You couldn't go on without water. You

3 have to use your water-closet, you have to wash. We are women after all,

4 aren't we? We needed water. We needed water for food as well, and for

5 washing. We simply had no choice but to go there. We couldn't go to the

6 loo, we couldn't go outside, and the shelling was constant from early in

7 the morning to late in the evening, and you couldn't leave your building

8 for a second because the shelling was so heavy. That should give you an

9 idea what life was like for us in those buildings. We had no cellars, no

10 windows, and hardly any doors at all, to be quite frank.

11 Q. Mrs. Dosen, what time-frame are you talking about now when you're

12 describing this situation?

13 A. I'm talking about the time period between August and November,

14 those four or three months. Those months were sheer hell. None of those

15 who were not there could even begin to imagine what it was like. Could

16 even begin to imagine that somebody could do a thing like that.

17 Uninterrupted shelling for three months. That was pure hell. I wouldn't

18 wish that upon anyone, especially when winter was upon us, with November

19 encroaching and the cold, can you believe what it was like for those

20 women?

21 Q. I understand, Mrs. Dosen. I would like you to answer directly my

22 questions.

23 So how did you know that people were shelled or hit by shellings

24 when they were trying to reach water out of the wells? Did you see that?

25 A. Yes, I did.

Page 3756

1 Q. And how many times did you see that? Was it once or was it often?

2 Can you tell us that?

3 A. Many times.

4 Q. And what are you talking about that in terms of numbers? Can you

5 give us some kind of assessment in that sense, please?

6 A. Well, about 20 times, at least. I'm positive about that.

7 Q. So about --

8 A. I personally witnessed this shelling at least about 20 times.

9 Q. And then you -- is it that those 20 times between in the period of

10 August to November 1991, or is it another time-frame when you are -- when

11 you did observe about around 20 times personally that people were shelled

12 when fetching water from the wells?

13 A. That is between August and November.

14 Q. The well sites, were they well-known around for people in

15 Vukovar? Can you describe something about that for us?

16 A. Well, we communicated with each other, and if there was one person

17 who knew about one such well, they would share this with other people, and

18 then these other people would share this with somebody else. We tried to

19 help each other out. Everybody needed help, so we passed information on

20 to other people; and conversely, we would be told by other people, there

21 is a well over there in that house, so we would go there to get some

22 water. We went like that several times, but then two persons were

23 injured, and later on we were too scared to continue going there.

24 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Dosen. How long were you able to stay in your

25 house, your family house, during the autumn of 1991?

Page 3757

1 A. We stayed on in the house throughout August and for the first half

2 of September. At this point my husband said that we could no longer stay

3 there. He went to do his guard duty at night in the Nama department

4 store, so Tanja and I stayed back alone. He told us that we would be

5 better off and safer at the Olajnica because there were more people there

6 and more women. He said his mind would be more at ease if we stayed at

7 Olajnica instead with more people around so that he at least knew that we

8 were not on our own.

9 Q. And did you go there? Did you move to another location then

10 according to your husband, your late husband?

11 A. Yes. Then Tanja and myself went to Olajnica and we stayed there

12 until the end, just before going to the hospital.

13 Q. And when was that?

14 A. It was in mid-September.

15 Q. And for what reason did you go to the hospital in mid-September?

16 A. Mid-September, no, that's not when we left for the hospital. We

17 went to Olajnica in mid-September. And we went to the hospital on the

18 17th of November.

19 Q. And before we move into that area on the 17th November, were your

20 husband ever injured during the armed conflict? And when and for what

21 then?

22 A. My husband was wounded in August 1991, by a shrapnel. As I said,

23 he went to the department store and to the Territorial Defence's offices.

24 He wanted to come by some food and to see how was distributed. The second

25 time he was wounded in his right upper arm. He heard that his brother's

Page 3758

1 son was killed on the street, and he tried to move him out and that's when

2 he was shot in the arm. He went to the hospital, and they immobilised his

3 arm without any surgery and he was sent home and that's when he joined us

4 at Olajnica.

5 Q. Mrs. Dosen, you have mentioned two times that your husband was

6 injured during the armed conflict. Were there any other times that he was

7 injured after those two times that you have recently described?

8 A. Yes. It was on the 16th of November in the morning. Our building

9 was set on fire, and a number of children and women remained in the

10 building. He tried to save them, and he kept saying that everyone should

11 leave the building because it was on fire. I came out together with Tanja

12 and my sister's son in my arms. Martin remained in our apartment, because

13 in the apartment next to ours there was an old lady who couldn't leave by

14 herself. He was trying to help her. She managed to get out of the

15 building, but he no longer had the time to come out.

16 There was a lot of smoke and fire by that time, so he stayed

17 outside on the balcony. We yelled from the street to try to run down the

18 burning stairs. I don't know exactly what happened, perhaps he was

19 panicking, he was wounded by that time, and they tried to throw a rope to

20 him, to the balcony so that he could try and use it to lower himself from

21 the third floor. But since he was quite a stout man, and he was using

22 only his left arm, and he must have ran out of strength. Therefore, he

23 let go of the rope and hit the concrete. His spine was hurt and was

24 paralysed in his upper body. Then I asked the people who were there to

25 transfer him to the hospital by any which means.

Page 3759

1 Q. And what day was this, Mrs. Dosen, that he was transported to the

2 hospital?

3 A. It was on the 16th, in the morning.

4 Q. Did you accompany him at that time, or was it later on?

5 A. No, I didn't accompany him, because my daughter was crying

6 hysterically, and I stayed with her. The shelling went on irrespective of

7 the things taking place. We couldn't go but, rather, the guys who knew

8 the way went. They carried him on the stretcher because each building had

9 its stretcher, and that's how he was carried to the hospital. Tanja and

10 myself did not accompany him at that time.

11 Q. Do you remember, I know it's difficult sometimes while it's long

12 time ago, but do you happen to remember what day you went then to the

13 hospital? And did you go there alone or accompanied with someone else?

14 A. On the 17th, during the night two guys came from the hospital.

15 They woke me up as well as Tanja in the building. We were told to pack

16 our stuff, that Martin sent for us so that we could reach the hospital.

17 There was a convoy to be put together to evacuate those wounded, as well

18 as the women and children from Vukovar, because the situation was becoming

19 unbearable. We tried to tell all those who wanted to go to the hospital,

20 and a column was formed. It was during the night, and I remember that it

21 was pouring rain. There was still shelling and one could hear tanks

22 approaching the city. Martin probably knew that they were to enter the

23 city soon, and he sent for us to come to the hospital. There were around

24 20 women and children in that column.

25 Q. So, Mrs. Dosen, if I understand you right, during the night to

Page 3760

1 the 18th you were wakened up and you were transported --

2 A. The 17th.

3 Q. Was it during the 17th and the 18th, if I understand you right?

4 A. It was on the 17th, during the night.

5 Q. And how was it then when you came to the hospital? Can you give

6 us a picture, briefly, about the overall situation? We have heard it from

7 other witnesses as well, so you don't need to go into details. Did you

8 meet your husband in the hospital?

9 A. When we reached the hospital Martin's sister-in-law was there --

10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, mother-in-law was

11 there.

12 A. As well as his sister-in-law's two children because his

13 sister-in-law was previously killed, and we were all part of the same

14 column. As soon as I entered the hospital, I saw my husband right away,

15 because his bed was right next to the door. We greeted each other, and

16 then we were asked to go to the first floor, because we were not allowed

17 to stay with the wounded. They were not in any hospital rooms. They were

18 in a cellar that was emptied previously and beds were put next to each

19 other. Those were not regular hospital rooms but, rather, corridors

20 filled with wounded people and the beds were next to each other.

21 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Dosen. You earlier described here that your

22 husband, he fell from the third floor, and he was brought to hospital.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Mrs. Tuma, could we interrupt a moment, please?

24 Mr. Lukic.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] A correction for the transcript.

Page 3761

1 Perhaps we could clarify this with the witness. I thought I heard in

2 B/C/S that the witness said when they came to the hospital on page 14,

3 line 4, she mentioned that apart from her mother-in-law and the late

4 Martin's sister's children, there were also Tanja and Martin's younger

5 brother, Ivan, and that did not enter the transcript. Perhaps we could

6 clarify.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

8 Mrs. Tuma.

9 MS. TUMA: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. Mrs. Dosen, we need to have some clarification here and it's only

11 in terms of the transcript, so it's not according to your answers,

12 earlier answers, so to say, so we get the translation right here.

13 So you were telling us here when you reached the hospital. Who

14 else you said that you met, you saw your husband Martin Dosen, and you

15 also mentioned relatives of yours, your family that were in the hospital

16 when you got there. Can you please repeat that?

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Excuse me. The way I understood, and

18 perhaps the witness could clarify, that together with her there were those

19 relatives who came to the hospital at that time. Perhaps we shouldn't

20 lead the witness in that but let the witness clarify who was within that

21 group that came to the hospital with the witness.

22 MS. TUMA: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. Mrs. Dosen, once again, I'm sorry for this, but can you please

24 clarify who was in the group that came to the hospital when it comes to

25 your relatives? You mentioned a group of people earlier. Can you please

Page 3762

1 repeat that?

2 A. Yes. My daughter, Tanja Dosen, was with me, my mother [as

3 interpreted], Marija Dosen, his brother Ivan Dosen, and two of their late

4 sister's children were there. She had been killed in October 1991, and

5 the two children were under age. Their names were Jelena and Igor.

6 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Dosen.

7 A. You're welcome.

8 Q. I would like you to describe the injuries that your husband

9 received by the fall from the third floor. You said that he was

10 hospitalised. Were there any doctor who examined him? Were you getting

11 any kind of information or explanation what kind of injuries he was

12 suffering from due to that fall? Thank you.

13 A. When I came to the hospital, the first thing I did was to speak

14 with Martin. That is my husband. And he told me that he was examined by

15 Dr. Njavro, and another doctor whose name I can't recall. Perhaps it is

16 not so important. They told him that his spine was injured, that his

17 vertebrae, his first, second, third and fourth vertebrae were injured.

18 But that, having in mind the situation at the Vukovar Hospital, they were

19 unable to provide any assistance for him. The only thing they could do

20 was provide some pain relief and tranquilizers. They suggested that all

21 of his documentation be taken to Zagreb or wherever it was that he would

22 go from Vukovar to continue with treatment. The thing is that he couldn't

23 lift his upper body. His head -- his head would fall backwards and he

24 couldn't sit up. So practically speaking, he couldn't move. He was

25 paralysed.

Page 3763

1 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Dosen. And when you were there in that scenery

2 when you came to the hospital, you met your husband there, there were

3 relatives, what kind of observations did you do otherwise? What kind of

4 people were located in the hospital when you were there, when you entered

5 the hospital during that night?

6 A. When I arrived that night there were lots of civilians in the

7 hospital coming from all directions within the city. Not only from

8 Olajnica, but from other parts. All those who had heard that a convoy

9 would be formed, they came to the hospital. And it was overcrowded, it

10 just couldn't hold so many people. Dr. Bosanac asked that we all go to

11 the first floor so as not to disturb the wounded. Since my husband

12 couldn't move, I asked Dr. Njavro to allow me to see him and to stay with

13 him. Hence I was allowed to do that, and I was seated on his bed.

14 He told me then that his brother Tadija was wounded and that he

15 was in the hospital as well. And that his sister's son was wounded as

16 well and was in the hospital too. And then I left to see the two men. I

17 wanted to see what their shape, what shape they were in. Because they

18 were not with us in the building during the shelling. They were in

19 another part of town. It is then that I saw Martin Jakubovski and

20 Tadija. Both of them were wounded at the time.

21 Q. What kind of injuries did they have? Were you able to see that?

22 A. Yes. Martin Jakubovski, the nephew, was hit by a rifle grenade in

23 his right hand. The hand was fixated with screws, and his pelvis was

24 injured. As for the brother-in-law, a shell entered their shelter and he

25 suffered internal injuries inside his chest and he had some bruising on

Page 3764

1 his cheek.

2 Q. If I understood you right, Mrs. Dosen, you mentioned here also the

3 brother, Tadija, that he was also injured. Was that right for me to

4 understand your saying that?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And did you see his injuries?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And what did they consist of?

9 A. Tadija had a rather long cut on his cheek and had a Band-Aid on

10 his chest. I couldn't see the actual injuries, but it seemed that he was

11 injured in the chest by the shelling.

12 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Dosen. You mentioned here earlier also the other

13 brother, Ivan Dosen. Did you meet him in the hospital? If so, did you

14 see him, if he did have any injuries and what kind? Thank you.

15 A. No. Ivan came with us from Olajnica. He came to the hospital as

16 a civilian. He wasn't wounded. He simply came as part of the group to be

17 with the children and with us, because he was the only male in the family

18 who was present.

19 We later on had to send some other guys for Tadija's wife and

20 daughter. They were in a different building, close to the Danube, in the

21 cellar. We were afraid that they would be caught in those cellars.

22 Therefore, during the night two guys went out and brought them into the

23 hospital and then they joined us.

24 Q. The next day what did you -- were you with your husband during

25 that day in the hospital?

Page 3765

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And did you -- what kind of people did you see around him or in

3 the hospital at that point when you -- on the next day in the hospital?

4 A. All those around him in the hospital were wounded. I knew some of

5 them, I didn't some other [as interpreted]. I had some cigarettes with

6 me, and we baked some bread and I brought them that. They were in a

7 miserable state. Before the war they probably weighed 80 to 100 kilos

8 each and now they were starved, neglected, and one could smell blood.

9 There was nothing much for them to be done.

10 Q. Okay.

11 A. We couldn't give them anything.

12 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Dosen. Did you see any soldiers around in the

13 hospital, or outside the hospital at any point of time during that day?

14 A. On that day, the 17th, no.

15 Q. The next day?

16 A. On the 18th, that is the next day, I went out and I saw Mr. Bilic,

17 aka Bili, and Dr. Bosanac. I saw them talking to a -- to some military

18 officers and that they were being taken away. I returned immediately. I

19 sat on my husband's bed, and I told him, "Martin, I don't know what is

20 happening, but Dr. Bosanac was taken away by the military, and I don't

21 know what will happen next."

22 Later on that evening, talking to some other people and through

23 rumours, we learned that Dr. Bosanac went to negotiate the military, so

24 that Vukovar would be surrendered to their hands as well as the hospital.

25 And she demanded that the wounded and civilians be taken out on a convoy

Page 3766

1 out of Vukovar and that there be no massacre. We all awaited what would

2 come next and what sort of a deal Dr. Bosanac would manage to put

3 together.

4 Q. Mrs. Dosen, I -- going back to my question: Did you see any

5 soldiers? You were mentioning here that Bosanac was taken away,

6 et cetera. But in and around the hospital, did you see any presence of

7 soldiers on this day where -- that we're talking about?

8 A. Not at that time. There were some people treated in the

9 hospital. There were three soldiers there who had been wounded. They

10 were hospitalised inside the Vukovar Hospital. They were there together

11 with our wounded. They were provided medical assistance, the same way it

12 was provided to our wounded people. Nobody refused to give assistance.

13 They were simply there, and apart from the three, there were no other

14 soldiers inside or outside the hospital.

15 Q. Were the hospital at any time surrounded by soldiers? And when

16 was that then, if you remember?

17 A. I can't be certain as to the date. It may have been between

18 the 18th and the 19th, during the night. In any case, I went outside and

19 I saw the military there. It was dark and I couldn't see what sort of

20 military, but I could see heavy weaponry being placed around the hospital.

21 In the meantime, I believe it was on the 18th, two officers came

22 in, because they came to fetch the three wounded soldiers who were in the

23 hospital. They came to get them. They told them to leave the hospital,

24 but the soldiers told them that they were fine where they were, that they

25 were treated fairly. However, they used force to take all of -- all of

Page 3767

1 them outside. And then they put a soldier at the entrance of the hospital

2 so that no one could leave any longer.

3 Q. Mrs. Dosen, here you said that you were not certain about the

4 date, if it was the 18th or 19th November that you went outside and that

5 you saw heavy weaponry outside the hospital, but you did not know what

6 kind of military --

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... When you say "heavy

9 weaponry," what does that mean? What did you see in terms of that?

10 A. When I came out I could see -- I could see tank barrels turned

11 towards the hospital. I can't tell you exactly what sort of weaponry it

12 was. I only can presume that they were tanks or heavy weaponry with their

13 barrels turned to the hospital.

14 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Dosen. You also mention here there were two

15 officer who came in in order to fetch the three soldiers you're talking

16 about. What kind of officers were they? Can you describe what kind of

17 army they belonged to?

18 A. Regular JNA soldiers and officers. I can't say for certain, but

19 when they came Dr. Bosanac had already returned, and by that time we knew

20 that the hospital was to be evacuated. There were two JNA officers who

21 went to see the three soldiers directly. I was seated on my husband's bed

22 at the time, and I said, Ah, it seems we are now getting cigarettes and

23 food, because the liberators are here. One of the officer hit himself on

24 the chest, he said that --

25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, he tried his pockets.

Page 3768

1 A. And he said, "I apologise, missus, but I don't seem to have any

2 cigarettes on me, or food either," and he continued on towards the

3 soldiers.

4 Q. You mentioned here JNA officers. Can you distinguish a JNA

5 officer from another officer, so to say? Do you know that for sure?

6 A. Yes, I can be certain of that, because my first husband was a JNA

7 officer. I know the difference between the star and the four Ss, and the

8 cockade. I have seen all three before.

9 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Dosen. Did you see any of other kind of military

10 in or around the hospital at the time where we are talking about, and that

11 was the next day after you entered into the hospital?

12 A. Well, the night before the evacuation, the night between the 19th

13 and the 20th, I left the hospital again to stand there with the wounded.

14 It was morning already. I went outside, believing that nobody would harm

15 me. Why wouldn't I, after all, I was thinking to myself. I'm not a

16 prisoner, am I?

17 However, when I looked up I saw a good friend of Martin's. I can

18 tell you about his insignia. He was wearing a pure Chetnik uniform with a

19 Chetnik insignia. He had a magazine slung over his shoulder. He was just

20 there. On your way to the hospital, you have to walk up a slope and he

21 was standing up there with his fists closed, shouting, "Serbia, Serbia,"

22 and I went back to see Martin to tell him that his friend was there and to

23 say nothing about it.

24 However, I was followed by this friend of Martin's into the room.

25 I heard them call him Capalo. Martin looked at him and said, "Capalo, for

Page 3769

1 God's sake, what sort of uniform is it that you're wearing?"

2 And Capalo just told him to keep his trap shut. He said, "This is

3 a Chetnik uniform. I told you this would all be Serbia, didn't I?"

4 Martin just placed his hand over his eyes and averted his gaze.

5 He was no longer in the mood to talk to him. I spoke to the man and

6 said, "This isn't Serbia. I don't believe it will ever be."

7 And then he turned to face me and told me, "You and I will have

8 this discussion somewhere else." And then Martin told me, "Please say no

9 more. Don't talk to him ever again."

10 He was one of those who were wearing pure Chetnik uniforms, but

11 then the reservists started streaming in, and their uniforms were again

12 different.

13 Q. Mrs. Dosen --

14 A. It was made out of a special rough cloth. They did not have the

15 five-pointed star but, rather, they had the four Ss.

16 Q. Mrs. Dosen, can you describe for us the differences in your point

17 of view, between the -- as you said Chetnik insignia and reservists. What

18 kind of uniforms were they wearing in order to be distinguished from each

19 other when you saw that in the hospital?

20 A. The distinction is that the Chetnik uniforms, and I'm referring to

21 those people wearing proper pure Chetnik uniforms, those people were

22 wearing fur caps with cockades, and they would have two cartridge belts

23 strapped across their chest and automatic rifles as well. The reservists,

24 on the other hand, were wearing helmets, and on the helmet they had the

25 four Ss sign. But sort of hand-painted. You could tell the difference

Page 3770

1 from the JNA soldiers who had proper JNA uniforms with a five-pointed

2 star.

3 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Dosen. Did you see any other -- you just

4 mentioned the name Capalo here. Did you see any other in the same outfit,

5 so to say, the same category in or around the hospital at the time?

6 Chetniks, I said, or reservists.

7 A. I can tell you that I only saw one or two Chetniks wearing the

8 same sort of uniform that Capalo was wearing. I can't say that there were

9 more of them, because there weren't. There were many more reservists,

10 some locals, people I knew, and some young men as well. You could see

11 that those were fresh conscripts who had probably received some sort of

12 abbreviated training and were forced to go to Vukovar. Those were no

13 regular forces. You could clearly see that they were reservists who had

14 been called up and forced to go to war. I can tell you that there were

15 quite many very young men or boys among them.

16 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Dosen. I heard here that you a couple of times at

17 least were outside the hospital during the night-time. Did you see any

18 kind of activities that you did find remarkable, so to say, during the

19 nights that you spent in the hospital?

20 A. One thing that I believe to be the -- more noteworthy than

21 anything else that was going on at the time was the fact that they brought

22 back Dr. Bosanac. They had her isolated in a room which meant that she

23 was no longer able to communicate with the patients. Frankly, all of the

24 reservists, all locals from Vukovar who decided to be a member of -- be

25 members of the reserve forces, the JNA no longer allowed those people to

Page 3771

1 mingle with the wounded carrying their weapons. But it was all fine for

2 as long as the regular army were still there.

3 However, during the next night they left, and this was when our

4 lads starting disappearing, those -- those of them who were in the

5 hospital. And we didn't see them again. On whose orders and why were

6 their names called, I don't know. The fact is, they led them away, they

7 led them outside, and we never saw them again.

8 Q. Mrs. Dosen, I would like to stay a bit -- we were talking here

9 about when the JNA left, that our -- as you mentioned here, our lads were

10 disappearing, and they were called out and led -- taken out. Can you

11 explain what happened? Did you see this, and what did you see?

12 A. All I can say is they got in, two of them, three of them,

13 reservists, and they would say, "You, come with us. We need you. And you

14 too, come with us." And they would just lead these people away from that

15 room in which we were staying. I don't know what happened later or where

16 these people were taken to. I can't say for sure because I didn't see

17 this myself. What I can say is that these people did not return.

18 Q. Did you see any people, as you mention here, were led away? Did

19 you see that?

20 A. Yes. Because those among us who were at the hospital and who

21 believed that they would leave with the convoy, there were a lot of

22 defenders who were no longer able to leave town. They had to either turn

23 over their weapons or surrender, but those people from Vukovar whom they

24 knew were standing with the JNA outside the hospital sharing names with

25 them, sharing the names of those people who were inside the hospital whom

Page 3772

1 they knew, and then they would go into the hospital and get those people.

2 So these names had to be shared by people from Vukovar who knew these

3 people. I don't believe any JNA officer from outside would have been able

4 to identify these people. There had to be someone with them who was a

5 source of local knowledge to share these names.

6 Q. Mrs. Dosen, you mention here the term "people." Can you expand

7 that a little, what you mean by "people"? People that were led away.

8 A. Young men who had stood guard around town in the suburbs, like my

9 husband. They came to the hospital to be there and wait for the convoy.

10 They were all defenders in their opinion, just like all the wounded were,

11 the way they saw it. I believe over a thousand of those people must have

12 been wound by shells and not in combat.

13 There wasn't much combat inside the town itself. There was just a

14 lot of killing of innocent people. There were a lot of Croat and Serb

15 civilians who had been wounded. I'm certain that those people were not

16 wounded by Croats; rather, they were being wounded by shells on account of

17 the constant shelling. There was no combat, hand-to-hand combat in the

18 town itself. And nobody can tell me that there was, because I was there

19 myself. I know that there wasn't.

20 Q. Mrs. Dosen, I didn't ask you about that, and I do want to -- you

21 to realise and think of that answer to my questions, please. And you

22 mention here that it was young men when you described the people who were

23 led out of the hospital. And were there any -- did those young men, did

24 they have anything in common?

25 A. The only distinguishing feature was that they were looking for

Page 3773

1 shelter, if you ask me, inside the hospital. They were looking for a

2 place to hide, fearing that there would be acts of vengeance, but I find

3 it very difficult to say. I knew some of them. For example the plaster

4 technician, Marko, went missing overnight. He disappeared from the

5 hospital and we never saw him again.

6 There were many young men I knew from Vukovar, but I didn't know

7 their names. Lots of them disappeared and never came back. I don't know

8 all of their names, but I did know many of them by sight. We would meet

9 in the streets of Vukovar, but I was not the same age as them, so I didn't

10 know their names. They just selected certain people and they probably

11 knew why they chose some people and took them away.

12 Q. Mrs. Dosen, I would like to stop here for a while, and you say

13 that they selected certain people. Who were "they"? Who did do the

14 selection?

15 A. I don't know. It was like this: Two reservists would come in and

16 say, "You, you come with us. You come with us too, and you too. We need

17 you for something. Come with us." I have no idea on whose orders they

18 were acting. There was nothing going on in the same room where the

19 wounded were. This was all taking place somewhere outside the hospital.

20 Q. Mrs. Dosen, thank you. You mentioned also that there were locals

21 who shared names with the JNA, at least you assumed that, if I understand

22 you right. Do you know -- happen to know who those locals were who shared

23 names with the JNA? Now we're talking about, as you say, those people

24 that were led out of the hospital in the night-time.

25 A. It's difficult to say. All those who left Vukovar were

Page 3774

1 reservists. But none of them were willing to come forward and say, "I'm

2 the one, I'm wearing this uniform." They just stood back and they

3 provided the names and then they would send somebody else, those

4 reservists who arrived from Kraljevo or Valjevo, or someplace like that.

5 They just didn't know. All they knew were their names, and that's why

6 they called out the names and took the people away but not a single one

7 was willing to show their face, come forward and say, "I'm the one. I

8 gave the names away."

9 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Dosen. How many did you see were led away in this

10 way?

11 A. The evening, when I was with Martin, they took away about four or

12 five of them, including Marko, the plaster technician.

13 Q. Who was -- Mrs. Dosen, who was Marko, what -- was he a normal guy,

14 so to say, or was he in any way active during the armed conflict?

15 A. I knew him as Marko, the plaster technician. He was actually

16 working at the hospital as a paramedic. He helped with the plaster-casts.

17 What they called Croat defenders came to the hospital, and I suppose they

18 tried -- well, I guess Dr. Bosanac must have allowed this, must have known

19 about this. They tried to save them somehow, and they would apply

20 plaster-casts on perfectly healthy limbs, so as to make it seem as if

21 these people too were wounded in order to avoid them being taken away by

22 force, biding their time until the convoy arrived so that they could all

23 be evacuated.

24 However, when the army got into the hospital, somebody told them

25 about this and then they took several of those away, several of those

Page 3775

1 people who had these plaster-casts on top of healthy limbs. They realised

2 that these people were not wounded in any way, and it was probably on

3 account of this that they took Marko, the plaster technician, away so that

4 they could ask him questions about why he had done this.

5 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Dosen. You just -- you earlier you mentioned that

6 Martin Dosen he was injured, et cetera. And do you know if there were any

7 medical records written concerning his injuries and his treatment in the

8 hospital? Just yes or no, please.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did you see that? Did you see the medical records?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And what happened with those medical records? Were they in the

13 hospital or were they -- where were they ended up?

14 A. Well, the next morning the evacuation of the wounded was supposed

15 to take place, and then Nurse Biba placed patients' case histories and

16 temperature charts in a plastic bag next to each of the patients. And the

17 assumption was that this would later be used to treat these people once

18 they'd been evacuated. So each of the patients were given their own case

19 histories wrapped up in a plastic bag, in a small plastic bag.

20 I was still perched on my husband's bed, so I took the little

21 plastic bag with his case history and that's why I had them on me when I

22 came to Zagreb, because I was later separated from my husband and the

23 documents stayed with me. I'm still in possession of the originals.

24 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Dosen. We'll go through that later on more in

25 detail when it comes to the medical records of your husband.

Page 3776

1 And how -- when you -- where did you spend the last night in the

2 hospital? That is, the night before the evacuation.

3 A. On my husband's bed, where his feet were.

4 Q. And what was his condition at that time? Medical condition.

5 A. Whoever knows my husband knows that he was a good athlete. He was

6 a professional fisherman, he was an active person. He couldn't reconcile

7 himself to being unable to move for the rest of his life, so he spent a

8 great deal of his time just sobbing.

9 Q. Was he able to walk during that night? Was he still immobile?

10 A. No, he certainly wasn't able to move about. He was entirely

11 immobile. He was unable to move his body in any way.

12 Q. Then the next morning, now we're on the 20th November, what

13 happened then in the morning? You said here that you spent the night by

14 your husband. And what happened then in the morning?

15 A. The next morning we were surprised to see two soldiers at the

16 door. They had some sort of a list and they started calling names out

17 from that list. I was surprised, because they started calling out the

18 names of Martin Dosen, Tadija Dosen, Ivan Dosen, Martin Jakubovski. We

19 were surprised that they started calling out individual names.

20 I asked the nurse if this was the beginning of the evacuation, and

21 she said, "Yes, we need to put your husband on a stretcher, since he can't

22 move. We'll have to carry him."

23 And then Martin said, "Ljubica, just one thing, where is Tanja?

24 Please, don't leave me. Stay with me throughout."

25 So when the nurses lifted him off the bed and put him on a

Page 3777

1 stretcher, Tanja and I followed his stretcher. But then the turmoil began

2 inside the hospital, and those of the wounded who could still move just

3 headed for the exit because they had been told to start leaving the

4 hospital because the convoy was there and the evacuation would soon

5 commence.

6 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Dosen. I would like to take it in sequence, so to

7 say. But thank you so much.

8 You said here that in the morning there were two soldiers at the

9 entrance, if I remember it right now and that they were having a list.

10 What kind of soldiers were they? Do you remember that?

11 A. Those were reservists.

12 Q. And what happened? You said there were two soldiers, they were

13 having this list. Were there any other military person in the -- close

14 by, or were those two reservists isolated, so to say, when they were

15 arriving with that list?

16 A. They were those two soldiers standing on their own with the list.

17 But as soon as we went outside, and I followed my husband, we found

18 ourselves facing a gauntlet made up of soldiers on either side. The

19 wounded walked up, and those of us who were civilians, and I was walking

20 along next to my husband's stretcher, were searched and we had to hand

21 over any items that we had on us. A pair of scissors, a pocket-knife,

22 pieces of jewellery, that sort of thing. Our bags were searched. I

23 managed somehow to get past them, as I was trying to follow my husband's

24 stretcher. But as you were passing by, the first thing that struck me as

25 strange was that we weren't taking the hospital's principal entrance but,

Page 3778

1 rather, the back exit.

2 Q. I have to interrupt you here, Mrs. Dosen. I would like to just

3 take in sequences, otherwise I have to go back. So please just answer my

4 questions.

5 So close to the two soldiers, as you mentioned, was reservists.

6 They were isolated, so to say, if I understood you right.

7 A. Yes. And there were other soldiers standing outside who were

8 searching people and who formed a gauntlet on the way out. There were

9 various kinds of soldiers standing outside, those wearing camouflage

10 uniforms, reservists, JNA soldiers, officers. It was a mixture of

11 soldiers, you might say.

12 Q. When it comes to that list, did those two soldiers have that list

13 in their hands? Or one of the soldiers perhaps?

14 A. Yes. One of them. And he was reading from the list.

15 Q. And what was he reading from the list?

16 A. The names of the wounded.

17 Q. And do you today remember the names on that list?

18 A. I remember the first names from the list. Because I left the room

19 soon after my husband Martin was among the first to be taken away. He was

20 the first name on that list, so they took him away, and I followed. I

21 don't know -- I don't know about the rest of the list.

22 Q. Do you remember any other names on that list that was called out?

23 You mention here your husband's name, that he was on the list. Do you

24 remember any other names on that list?

25 A. Yes. Both of his brothers, Tadija Dosen, Ivan Dosen, little Marko

Page 3779

1 Jakubovski Dosen. When I realised that all of them were being called out,

2 it struck me as strange or suspicious that their names topped the list. I

3 thought that was some sort of a record of the wounded who were inside the

4 hospital, but I'm afraid that that, after all, might not have been the

5 case.

6 Q. You mentioned now a few names here, Mrs. Dosen. And you also said

7 earlier that you didn't remember all the names of that list. Do you today

8 remember about how many names were called out from that specific list?

9 MR. LUKIC: Objection.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Lukic.

11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I may be too early objecting, but I

12 believe the witness said that her husband was among the first and that she

13 followed him outside soon after. I think the OTP's asking a little too

14 much. I believe this to be a leading question, but I may have been

15 slightly overzealous, perhaps.

16 JUDGE PARKER: It's not a leading question at all. It's asking

17 does she know, and if your understanding is correct, she won't know. But

18 if she does know, we'll need to learn how she knows.

19 Please carry on, Mrs. Tuma.

20 MS. TUMA: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. Those names, Mrs. Dosen, on that specific list that were called

22 out, you mentioned a couple of names here. How did you know that those

23 names were on the list?

24 A. Well, if you're holding a piece of paper in your hand and reading

25 from it, and names are being called out, well, then, it must be a list.

Page 3780

1 Q. Did you hear this when the names were called out, Mrs. Dosen?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Dosen. You have just described the list and you

4 described also specific names on that list and also other names that you

5 don't really know about. How -- can you today give us a kind of

6 estimation how many names, about, could be in total on that specific list

7 that were read out?

8 A. I was able to hear about 10 names off that list prior to my

9 husband being put on the stretcher and he being moved out towards the

10 exit. After that I could no longer hear who was being called out, but the

11 wounded came out of the hospital in great numbers.

12 Q. Okay, Mrs. Dosen. I just -- you said about 10 names you heard

13 from that list. Were there any kind of characteristics concerning those

14 10 names that were called out that you heard was called out, that were in

15 common from those 10 names? Do you remember that, Mrs. Dosen?

16 A. To my mind, and at least at the moment when all of this was taking

17 place, and one needs to bear in mind that I was under severe stress and I

18 just wanted things to start moving, at that time it appeared suspicious

19 that those were all members of my family and friends of ours, Martin's

20 cousins. It means that somebody must have singled them out, out of all

21 those people. To have so many members of our family and so many of our

22 men to be singled out, to my mind, that was quite suspicious.

23 Q. Mrs. Dosen, you named -- you mention here that it seems to be that

24 they were singled out, the male family members and also Martin Dosen's

25 cousins. Did they have anything else in common than to be relatives?

Page 3781

1 A. No. Perhaps in their view they were defending their families and

2 they may have heard that they had carried arms. My husband had a gun, a

3 pistol, as well as a Kalashnikov. But he had that in order to protect his

4 family and not to kill anyone. I don't know what other characteristics

5 they may have had in common, apart from being HDZ members, and being the

6 people who tried to put together a system of defence of the city to

7 protect the children and women of the city.

8 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Dosen.

9 A. Because there were very few men in the city itself.

10 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Dosen.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Mrs. Tuma, is that a convenient time?

12 MS. TUMA: Yes, Thank you, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Mrs. Dosen, we're going to take a break now so hat

14 you can have a free time for about 20 minutes and then we will continue.

15 So we will now adjourn and resume at a quarter to 5.00.

16 --- Recess taken at 4.21 p.m.

17 --- On resuming at 4.48 p.m.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Mrs. Tuma will now continue her questioning.

19 Yes, Mrs. Tuma.

20 MS. TUMA: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. Mrs. Dosen, you mentioned, I'm talking about the list now, only

22 the list and nothing else. You mentioned three names that were called out

23 from that specific list. And that was Ivan Dosen, Tadija Dosen and

24 little, as you mentioned here, Martin Jakubovski. Were there any other

25 names that you remember today from that list, that were called out,

Page 3782

1 together with those three individuals?

2 A. Yes. Zvonko Vulic was called out, Ivan Ahmetovic as well, Ivan

3 Vulic. I think that's that as far as I can remember. I don't want to

4 speculate.

5 Q. And when you mentioned, if I understood you right now because I

6 don't have the transcript right in front of me concerning those names that

7 you heard were called out, was it Martin Jakubovski that was called out?

8 Is that the same person as little Marko? So we do have it this clear

9 here, please.

10 A. No. Martin Jakubovski is my husband's sister's son.

11 Q. Was he called out from that list?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. These people that you just mentioned now by name that were called

14 out from that specific list, have you ever seen them since then, since

15 that day?

16 A. No.

17 Q. And do you happen to know what happened to them?

18 A. Ivan Ahmetovic, his body was exhumed at Ovcara. Martin Jakubovski

19 was exhumed at Ovcara as well. And nothing -- no information exists for

20 the remaining people.

21 Q. And how about your husband, he was also on that list?

22 A. Yes. He was the first one on the list.

23 Q. Any information about him that you have?

24 A. When I came to Zagreb, a friend of his called on me. He was from

25 Vukovar but had left to Germany.

Page 3783

1 Q. Mrs. Dosen, you said here --

2 A. Since Martin was a good friend of his.

3 Q. I have to interrupt you here, Mrs. Dosen. You said here that Ivan

4 Dosen was exhumed in Ovcara. What happened to your husband, Martin Dosen?

5 A. No, not Ivan. Not Ivan Dosen, but Ivan Ahmetovic was exhumed.

6 Q. And your husband?

7 A. My husband is still missing. Allegedly he was killed in

8 Negoslavci.

9 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Dosen. I will leave the sequence, if I may say

10 so, with the list. And I want you to go back now in your memory and just

11 take step by step and answer my questions and not talk more than I'm

12 asking after.

13 So you were -- where were you standing when the soldier, as you

14 referred to earlier, was calling out the names from that list? Where were

15 you at that point?

16 A. Next to my husband's bed.

17 Q. And where was it?

18 A. In the hospital, in the room where all the wounded were. Martin's

19 bed was right next to the door, as one was leaving the room.

20 Q. And what did -- what happened exactly after that? You was by your

21 husband's bed. Were you there all the time or were there any kind of

22 transport?

23 A. As I stood next to the bed, two nurses came, because my husband

24 needed to be taken from the bed to be put on the stretcher, as he couldn't

25 walk. But they were unable to put him on the stretcher because he was too

Page 3784

1 heavy for them, and then two soldiers came in and they carried his

2 stretcher. Tanja and myself walked next to the stretcher.

3 Q. Did those two soldiers, as you just mentioned now, they should

4 carry him on the stretcher, were they anyone who directed them to do that,

5 or did they do that on their own initiative?

6 MR. LUKIC: Objection.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Lukic.

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] This is a very leading question. I

9 wish to remind that the witness has answered to this question several

10 times before that. On page 31, line 14, she said that two soldiers came

11 and she clearly stated that she saw the additional soldiers and officers

12 only after having left the building. And she clearly stated that in -- on

13 page 33, line 20. And now again the Prosecutor, in the leading way,

14 wishes to receive a certain type of answer from the witness.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic, I quite agree with your recollection

16 about her earlier evidence, but when asked about what happened by the

17 husband's bed, without any suggestion of soldiers from Mrs. Tuma it was

18 the witness who said what happened was two nurses came, put him on a

19 stretcher, he was too heavy, two soldiers came. That was entirely the

20 evidence of the witness without any prompting about soldiers. And the

21 further question then of Mrs. Tuma was merely whether they came on their

22 on their own initiative or did someone else order or direct them. I don't

23 see that as an improper question, given that there has been the specific

24 mention by the witness of two soldiers.

25 Yes, Mrs. Tuma.

Page 3785

1 MS. TUMA: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Q. Mrs. Dosen, could you please answer that question, and if you

3 don't remember it, I can repeat it.

4 A. I do remember it. They were probably ordered to come and help

5 carry him. The two must have been aware that they were far too fragile to

6 carry him on a stretcher. They must have received an order to assist, as

7 the nurses were unable to. As soon as his name was called out, he was

8 supposed to be evacuated from the building.

9 Q. Mrs. Dosen, I need to know what you saw and observed. I don't

10 want to have "probably," so to say. You are here to give evidence about

11 what you saw, observed or heard, so to say, not what assumption or

12 conclusions or what "probably" had happened. So can you -- do you

13 remember what happened and then to answer my questions, can you please do

14 that?

15 A. I remember the nurses saying that they can't carry Martin, and

16 that two soldiers came, and they carried him outside. But I didn't see

17 the person issuing an order to them.

18 Q. Were there any -- you said two soldiers, what kind of soldiers

19 were they?

20 A. Reservists.

21 Q. When this took place, when you could see that in front of you, so

22 to say, when these two reservists took up the stretcher in order to carry

23 it away, were there any other soldiers in the -- nearby in that sequence,

24 so to say, and not -- not just only that sequence?

25 A. Not in the very room. Not in the room. There were no soldiers in

Page 3786

1 the same room with the wounded, apart from the two soldiers, one of whom

2 was calling out the names from the list, and there was another one

3 standing beside him, plus the two who carried Martin out.

4 Q. Okay. And what were you doing? You said that Martin was carried

5 out. Just briefly answer, please.

6 A. I took my bag, Tanja accompanied me, and we walked next to the

7 stretcher and came out of the room.

8 Q. And where did you go directly after that? You said that you went

9 out of the room, and where did you go and Tanja go? Directly after that.

10 And not any longer, just that sequence.

11 A. We went outside, and we were searched by the soldiers. They

12 searched the bag and us too. We -- told us to move on and then Tanja and

13 I followed Martin, the stretcher and the two soldiers.

14 Q. Okay. Thank you, Mrs. Dosen.

15 A. And we accompanied them.

16 Q. Okay. Were -- when you say that you went outside and you were

17 searched by soldiers, what kind of soldiers were they?

18 JUDGE PARKER: We've had that quite in detail before the break,

19 Mrs. Tuma.

20 MS. TUMA: Okay.

21 Q. Were you -- were there other people around, or were there other

22 that were searched by those soldiers, Mrs. Dosen?

23 A. Yes. There were other women and children and people leaving to

24 the other side. As one comes out of the hospital, the women and children

25 were told to go to the right, and the wounded to the left; that is, toward

Page 3787

1 the buses.

2 Q. And you say -- when you say here that women and children to the

3 right and the wounded to the left, that group that compiled the wounded,

4 what kind of people were they?

5 A. Some of them could walk by themselves. They walked to the buses.

6 And those who couldn't walk were carried on stretchers and then - how

7 should I say it - they were left close to the street where the buses were.

8 They would put down the stretchers on the concrete.

9 Q. Now, Mrs. Dosen, we will -- I will show you a photograph.

10 MS. TUMA: And for the Court, it is the exhibit number 170, and

11 the ERN number is 00531260. I would also like the witness to look at that

12 specific photograph.

13 Just a moment, please.

14 So that is -- we have to continue here to the ERN number 00531260,

15 please. Yes, thank you.

16 Q. Mrs. Dosen, do you have that photograph in front of you?

17 A. Yes, I do.

18 Q. And you told us that you walked out of the hospital. Can you show

19 on this photograph where you did -- where you did came -- where -- from

20 where you went out of the hospital?

21 MS. TUMA: Is there any technical possibilities for the witness to

22 show that so we can see it here?

23 JUDGE PARKER: She has a photographic copy of this exhibit, I

24 believe. She could mark that, but that will not be easy for us to view

25 here.

Page 3788

1 MS. TUMA: Can it be possible, Your Honour, for the witness to

2 tell her testimony by showing on that photograph in her answers where

3 specific events took place?

4 JUDGE PARKER: It may be possible. You will have to try.

5 MS. TUMA: I will, Your Honour, thank you.

6 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

7 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, if she is encouraged to mark the photographic

8 copy she has of the exhibit, it will be possible then for us to get some

9 view of it. Just how good that will be, we will see.

10 MS. TUMA: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. Mrs. Dosen, do you have that photograph now in front of you,

12 right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What does that show, what kind of building is that? Is that the

15 hospital of Vukovar? Do you recognise that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And you mentioned here that you went out of the hospital and you

18 were searched, and there were other women and children, and one group went

19 to the right, another group went to the left. I just want you now to show

20 on that photograph --

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. -- where you went out from the hospital and where the searches

23 were started. Just show us that, please.

24 A. It was here. That's the exit.

25 Q. Mark that with an A, please.

Page 3789

1 A. [Marks].

2 Q. And you mentioned here that one group went to the right side,

3 another group went to the left side. Can you mark that and write an

4 arrow, what you meant by the right side that, group that went to the right

5 side, will you please mark that as in B?

6 A. Women and children went that way and the wounded the other. On

7 both sides there were soldiers.

8 Q. And now we move on --

9 JUDGE PARKER: Before the witness leaves that, the first arrow

10 which you have to the right side, could you please put a B against the tip

11 of that arrow, Mrs. Dosen?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Letter B to mark the direction where

13 the women and children went.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Now, could you please put a letter C

15 against the arrow marking the direction of the group that went to the left

16 side?

17 THE WITNESS: [Marks].

18 JUDGE PARKER: And could you put the letter D, I think twice,

19 against what you described as soldiers who were on either side of that

20 group that went to the left side.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. [Marks].

22 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

23 Yes, Mrs. Tuma.

24 MS. TUMA: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Q. So, Mrs. Dosen, you went out of the hospital, and in what group

Page 3790

1 were you walking? You have different options here, so to say. And just

2 mention the letter, please.

3 A. The letter C.

4 Q. And who else were in that group? What kind of people?

5 A. The wounded.

6 Q. It was only wounded or were there other people that were not

7 wounded, or was it only wounded in that group? Do you know that for a

8 fact?

9 A. I know it for a fact that there were only the wounded and the

10 soldiers.

11 Q. And what -- what happened after you were searched by the soldiers?

12 Just directly after that.

13 A. After the search they allowed me and Tanja to accompany Martin.

14 We went in the direction of the arrow towards the letter C, that is

15 together with the wounded and to the buses.

16 Q. You mentioned here, Mrs. Dosen, buses, to the buses. Can you show

17 on the same photograph and take the letter E where the buses were located

18 when you saw them.

19 A. One of the buses was here. And the other one here. This was

20 number three.

21 Q. Can you please take up the photograph a bit with the help of the

22 court officer? Can you take that once again, please, because I didn't see

23 it properly. So we don't have it --

24 A. The first bus was here.

25 Q. Hang on.

Page 3791

1 A. The second one here. The third one here.

2 Q. And the third one --

3 A. And the fourth one.

4 Q. Okay. Can you please turn up the photograph a little bit more so

5 we see the whole -- the down of that page, please.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Just push the page up a little. Thank you.


8 Q. Thank you. And Mrs. Dosen, you have now marked four E. Can you

9 please numbering the four E, in terms of the buses, bus number, so to say.

10 Where were the bus standing when you saw it, when you're coming out from

11 the direction C?

12 JUDGE PARKER: If you could put just E1.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The first bus.

14 MS. TUMA:

15 Q. And the number 1 on that.

16 A. [Marks].

17 Q. And the next bus, number 2.

18 A. [Marks].

19 Q. And the third bus, number 3.

20 A. [Marks].

21 Q. And the fourth bus, number 4.

22 A. [Marks].

23 Q. Thank you.

24 A. You're welcome.

25 Q. Did you, Mrs. Dosen, see any differences between those four buses

Page 3792

1 that you saw from your position in numbers -- letter C?

2 A. Yes. The difference was in that three of the buses were white

3 civilian city buses, and the fourth one, or rather the third one, to be

4 precise, was a military bus, olive-drab. And around the bus there were

5 four soldiers --

6 Q. Yeah, we can take that later on. Now just talking about the buses

7 themselves. You just mentioned here that there was a military bus. Which

8 one of the four was that, and will you please circle, make a circle around

9 that number of that bus that was a military bus?

10 A. [Marks].

11 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Dosen.

12 A. You're welcome.

13 Q. I interrupted you a bit before. And you were on your way to tell

14 us what -- there were differences between these buses. You mention it was

15 a military bus and there was also, as I understood you right, another

16 difference as well. And what was that then, please?

17 A. The difference was that there were soldiers with automatic rifles

18 or machine-guns standing around that military bus and that was where they

19 took my husband. His stretcher was lowered beside that military bus. And

20 that is why I can describe that particular bus best of all.

21 Q. You say there were soldiers with automatic rifles. How many

22 soldiers were -- do you remember that? How many soldiers were by that

23 specific bus, the military bus, bus number 3?

24 A. Yes, I remember precisely that there were four soldiers standing

25 outside the bus, and there were two soldiers on the bus. Next to the

Page 3793

1 driver's seat.

2 Q. And once again, what kind of soldiers were the four and the two

3 soldiers? Four around and the two inside the bus.

4 A. All six of them were reservists.

5 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Dosen. So -- what happened with your husband? He

6 was on stretchers. What happened with him? Can you tell us that, please?

7 A. When we reached that bus they wanted to put Martin on the bus, but

8 they just couldn't because the stretcher was too wide for the door. So

9 they couldn't put him on the bus and he was unable to move himself or

10 indeed to sit down, so they just lowered the stretcher on the ground.

11 Tanja and I stood right there beside the stretcher, and Martin was outside

12 the bus sitting on the ground on top of the stretcher.

13 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Dosen. Can you also mark that on that photograph?

14 You said that he was sitting on the ground on the stretchers. Can you

15 please mark that on the photograph? And then we are on the letter F now.

16 So please mark an F where Martin was sitting on the stretchers.

17 A. The bus was here, so this would be it.

18 Q. Where were you and Tanja then when Martin was at the location F?

19 A. We were standing next to him and beside the stretcher.

20 Q. Mrs. Dosen, you told us before that names were called up from a

21 list that we have heard about. The people that were called out from that

22 list, where were they heading to? Did you see that?

23 A. Yes. The people whose names I had heard called out, the four of

24 them ended up on this military bus, number 3. But there two other men

25 whose names I heard being called out who ended up in the bus marked as

Page 3794

1 number 1.

2 Q. Can you please repeat the names of that four people -- persons

3 that ended up in the military bus, please?

4 A. Tadija Dosen, Ivan Dosen, the young Vulic, and Martin Jakubovski

5 Dosen.

6 Q. Did you see who instructed them on to this bus, the third bus?

7 A. I don't know who it was that told them to get on that third bus,

8 but by the time we arrived with the stretcher they were already on the

9 bus.

10 Q. When you saw that, Mrs. Dosen, when they were already on the bus,

11 how did the bus look inside? Could you have a possibility to make -- to

12 see that, how the bus was constructed, so to say, inside the bus itself?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And what did you see?

15 A. I saw that there were rows with two seats together on the bus, but

16 they weren't sitting in pairs. There was one man per seat. Not two

17 people together, but one behind the other.

18 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Dosen. Was there any -- anything happened when

19 you were standing there outside this third bus and you saw four people

20 that you have mentioned by name sitting inside the bus, did anything

21 happened to any of these people that were already in the bus when you were

22 standing outside the bus? Either anything happened to the outside or

23 inside the bus?

24 A. Yes. What happened was that Martin's youngest brother, Ivan

25 Dosen, was taken off the bus suddenly by two soldiers. He was forced to

Page 3795

1 walk toward the fence, which you can see in the photograph. They told him

2 to raise his arms, and one of the men cocked his machine-gun and pointed

3 it at him. At this point in time, the elder brother, Tadija, rose inside

4 the bus, to see where his brother was being taken. And I was asked,

5 "Ljubica, for God's sake, what's happening, where are they taking Bratsvo

6 [phoen] to?"

7 And I said, "I have no idea. You see there is probably something

8 going on there."

9 And he started saying things like, something's wrong, please take

10 my child away from here, you see that there are no women or children here.

11 This can't be a good thing. Meanwhile, while this was happening, on the

12 other side of the fence with Ivan, women and children were being brought

13 over from the direction marked as C. Ruzica Markobasic, Martin's

14 sister --

15 Q. Mrs. Dosen, we will stop here and just concentrate on the event

16 with brother Ivan Dosen, and then after that we will move on, later on to

17 the next incident.

18 Can you please take the photograph again and mark on the

19 photograph with the letter G where Ivan Dosen, you said that he was taken

20 off the bus and there was a fence.

21 A. [Marks].

22 Q. So what are you doing now, Mrs. Dosen? Explain that for us. What

23 does that show, that letter?

24 JUDGE PARKER: That's what you just asked her to do.

25 MS. TUMA: I know. I want her to ...

Page 3796

1 JUDGE PARKER: You've asked her to do it, she's marked it, you

2 don't need anything more.


4 Q. What happened exactly at that point, Mrs. Dosen, when -- with

5 brother Ivan Dosen?

6 A. He was taken to that fence and told to raise his arms. He was

7 frisked and they told him that he was an Ustasha butcher and that he must

8 have a knife on him somewhere. They grabbed him by his jacket from the

9 back, and then he told him, "I don't have a knife on me," and the other

10 man told him, "Go on then, you Ustasha, get on the bus," so he did.

11 Q. Okay. Thank you. And you said earlier here, Mrs. Dosen, there

12 was an -- meanwhile there was another incident happening. Can you tell us

13 about what happened then? You mentioned a female name, if I remember it

14 right now.

15 A. Ruzica Markobasic, she's Martin's cousin. She lived with Davor

16 Markobasic. They were yelling at him saying that he was an Ustasha, so

17 she too was now brought over and told to go to the fence. Her fur coat

18 was stripped from her, and they looked inside her bag for a necklace that

19 had allegedly been made by her children by cutting -- made by her husband

20 by cutting off children's fingers in order to make a necklace for her.

21 This was an absurd notion, if you ask me. She was five months pregnant at

22 this time, so you can imagine how scared and fearful she was. They told

23 her that she was an Ustasha whore and then she told them that she didn't

24 have anything like that, so then she was shoved aside too and ordered to

25 go to that military bus. She was the only woman on that bus.

Page 3797

1 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Dosen. Can you please mark with an H where she

2 was put against the fence?

3 A. [Marks].

4 Q. And you are referring -- thank you, Mrs. Dosen. You are referring

5 to that "they" did took her to the bus. Who are "they"?

6 A. Two soldiers who searched her near that fence. They led her to

7 the bus and told her to get on the bus. Meanwhile, another soldier came

8 back from the bus, grabbed me by the hand, and put something into my hand.

9 I pressed my fist, because I thought that maybe it was a message that she

10 was sending me. When I opened my fist, I realised that there were 2.000

11 dinars inside my fist. I stopped him and said, "Listen, young man, I have

12 no use for this."

13 And his answer was, "Well, you may be needing this in the future,

14 but she certainly won't."

15 Q. What happened with -- was she led into the bus after that?

16 A. She was on the bus by the time he gave me the money. She remained

17 on the bus throughout, but then I asked this young man, "Young man, can

18 you tell me where these buses are headed for? There is no evacuation,

19 this is not a convoy carrying the wounded."

20 Q. Did you have any kind of conversation with that soldier?

21 A. Yes. I'm telling you I asked him, "Young man, listen, can you

22 tell me where these buses are going? This is no convoy, they are not in

23 the process of evacuating the wounded, as far as I can see."

24 And he replied, "Don't ask me, madam."

25 And I said, "Well, why wouldn't I ask you? I am expecting that I

Page 3798

1 should be evacuated."

2 And he said, "Which particular bus do you want to know about?

3 This one?"

4 And I said, "Yes, this one. I want to know about this bus because

5 my family is on that bus."

6 And he said, "Well, madam, on this bus, all the people on this bus

7 are Ustasha extremists, and they should be swallowed by the night in broad

8 daylight."

9 Q. What does that mean, "swallowed by the night"?

10 A. Well, you know, that's what people say, that they will disappear

11 in the course of that same day. Day or night made little difference to

12 them at this point. It was certain that they would come to grief and that

13 they would be killed. And then my husband started sobbing, telling me to

14 take Tanja away and to take his necklace and his ring with me. And I

15 said, "Sorry, Martin, but why do you want me to do that?

16 And he said, "Take my child away. You see there is no single

17 woman or a single child on this bus. It is only you and Tanja left now.

18 Take her away."

19 Q. Did you see any other people that were boarded on that third bus

20 than you have told us now? Or were in the bus already during those

21 incidents happening?

22 A. There weren't many people on that bus, about 50 [as interpreted].

23 I knew some of them. The young Kozul, Sinisa Glavasevic, Ivan, Tadija,

24 Vulic, Ruzica, and another three persons I didn't know. The young Martin

25 Jakubovski was brought there later on, once everyone else had already got

Page 3799

1 on to the bus.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Vasic.

3 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. There is one

4 thing in the transcript, page 51, line 13. The witness said there were

5 10 people and the transcript says 50.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

7 MS. TUMA: Just a moment, please.

8 [Prosecution counsel confer]

9 MS. TUMA: I'm sorry for the interruption.

10 Q. May I ask you, Mrs. Dosen, if you know the -- you said the young

11 Kozul. Do you happen to know the first name of the young Kozul?

12 A. Josip. Josip Kozul. His body was also identified at Ovcara.

13 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Dosen. What -- you mentioned here also when it

14 comes to the jewels that he had on himself. What happened with those?

15 I'm talking about your husband's jewels now.

16 A. My husband had a hand-made necklace with a medallion containing an

17 image of the Virgin Mary and there is Tanja's name engraved on the back.

18 He told me to take the necklace and give it to Tanja because he always

19 wanted her to have it.

20 On his ring finger, he had a huge ring with the letters DM. He

21 was always saying that his son would have that finger [as interpreted],

22 but he had been wounded and his arm was swollen. He couldn't take the

23 ring off. So I told him, "Listen, Martin, I'm not sending you to your

24 grave, I'm not taking any jewellery off you now." However, he had managed

25 somehow to get

Page 3800

1 the necklace off himself and give it to Tanja. Tanja still has this

2 necklace. That's the only thing that remains of her father.

3 Q. How did you feel about that, Mrs. Dosen?

4 A. It was a dreadful feeling. Even now, as I talk about these

5 things, I can't help but wonder how I managed to survive all of this and

6 how I managed to keep the presence of mind to be able to reason, to be

7 able to know that I had to get Tanja out of there somehow. She was only

8 14 years of age. She was a child watching all this happening, watching

9 her father crying, watching one of her uncles on that bus, watching the

10 other uncle, watching her cousin there. She was sobbing too. It was a

11 dreadful experience; it was pure chaos. But I told myself that I had to

12 be the one to try.

13 Q. Mrs. Dosen, did you take any action? You mentioned here that

14 there was a dreadful feeling, and you had your 14-year-old daughter, and

15 his [sic] father was crying. Did you do any actions when you were

16 standing there? And what did you do then?

17 A. Yes. I turned to look at the other buses, and I spotted a tall

18 officer with a black moustache wearing a camouflage uniform. I didn't

19 know at this time who this person was. I just walked towards him, and I

20 heard him being addressed as Major Sljivancanin. I stood right there in

21 front of him and addressed him, "Excuse me, can I ask you a question?"

22 He answered in a robust way, "Yes, go ahead. Ask me."

23 And I said, "What are my daughter and I doing here since there

24 seem to be no women and children around here?"

25 And he said, "Have you been arrested?"

Page 3801

1 My answer was, "Why on earth would I be arrested? Is this the

2 convoy?"

3 He just looked at me and said, "Well, yes. So why are you here?"

4 And I said, "I am here because of my husband."

5 And then he asked me, "Where is your husband?"

6 And I said, "He is right there on the stretcher."

7 And he said, "Why isn't he on the bus?"

8 And I said, "Well, the stretcher is too big to be placed on the

9 bus through that narrow door."

10 And he said, "Well, they should put him on the bus. They should

11 lift him on the bus."

12 And I said, "Well, he's not able to even sit down."

13 And he said, "Well, who is he?"

14 And I said, "It's my husband."

15 And he said, "Yes, I know that, but who specifically?"

16 And I said, "Martin Dosen."

17 And then he said, "Oh, it's Dosen."

18 I gave him a strange look, wondering how on earth he knew who

19 Martin Dosen was. And then I said, "Well, yes."

20 And then he said, "Well, then, he should go."

21 And then he was lost in thought for a moment, and then he raised

22 two fingers to some two soldiers standing there in order to tell them to

23 go back to the bus and bring Martin on the stretcher back. I thought at

24 this point that they would take him back to the hospital, but they just

25 left him lying in that corridor passage that I marked with the letter C.

Page 3802

1 I asked Sljivancanin right away, "I have Martin's bag on me

2 containing his personal belongings and clothes. What am I supposed to do

3 with it?"

4 And he said, "Well, the -- why would he need that?"

5 And I said, "What do you think? Why would he need that?"

6 And then he probably remembered what he had told me, what would he

7 be needing that for, he probably won't be needing that any longer. And

8 then he said, "Who do you think will carry these for him?"

9 He looked at me ask said, "You know something, both you and your

10 daughter, please go straight away to where the remaining women and

11 children are," so I went straight back. I told Tanja to walk ahead of me.

12 I stopped as I was passing Martin's stretcher. He was wearing a pullover

13 and a plaster-cast on his arm. I covered him up to keep him warm but he

14 just placed one hand across his eyes. And that was the last time we saw

15 him alive.

16 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Dosen. I would like you now to go back to the

17 photograph and look at that again. You said, Mrs. Dosen, that you turned

18 to the buses and that you spotted a tall officer and that you didn't know

19 him by the time, but that he was addressed as Major Sljivancanin. Where

20 were he standing when you spotted him in the scenery on the photograph?

21 Can you please show us that on the photograph? If you remember it.

22 A. Yes. How would you like me to mark it with?

23 Q. We can mark it with the marking with an I.

24 A. [Marks].

25 Q. And why did you address this specific officer?

Page 3803

1 A. I noticed him issuing orders, giving out commands, and that

2 everybody reported to him, addressed him. And one could clearly see that

3 everyone came to him, be it the reservists or the soldiers. If anyone had

4 any questions, they all turned to him.

5 Q. Mrs. Dosen, when you are saying "issuing orders," can you explain

6 that a bit more, what you were observing in that sense?

7 A. I noticed that the entire evacuation process was under his

8 command, that the wounded are being distributed on to the buses, and when

9 they were filled, additional military trucks came to pick up those wounded

10 who couldn't move. And I can show it to you on the photograph. It was to

11 my left. As I was returning toward the hospital, they were loading those

12 who couldn't move. When I say "loading," they simply tossed them on to

13 the trucks --

14 Q. We're getting to that point --

15 A. -- not thinking that these people were actually wounded.

16 Q. But you said on my question, where you did turn to him. And you

17 say that he was issuing orders and I wanted you to explain what you

18 observed in doing so. And then I'm talking about before that moment, so

19 to say, when you addressed him, not afterwards, what happened after you

20 addressed him, but before that when you turned to him, and my question

21 was, why you did so? And then you mentioned that he issued orders. Can

22 you explain that, why you saying that, and what did he do in order for you

23 to make that observation, that he was issuing orders before that

24 moment when you were addressing him?

25 A. I believe he was the commander there. I also took into account

Page 3804

1 his insignia, because I used to be married to an officer. I could

2 recognise rank and I knew he was a major. Being a relatively high officer

3 in the JNA, that means that one commands over a number of people. And it

4 seemed only appropriate to address him directly. I tried to invoke

5 some -- the human side inside him, but I tried to ask for some assistance,

6 and I had nowhere else to turn to, knowing he was a JNA officer, and

7 seeing him command.

8 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Dosen. You mentioned here that you had no one

9 else to turn to. Did you make any try before you addressed this tall

10 officer in this respect in order to get some help?

11 A. Unfortunately, I tried to speak to a friend of Martin by the name

12 of Darko Vuk, aka Drki. I told him, "Why don't you help Martin, try to do

13 something, at least return him to the hospital. You can see that things

14 are not going well."

15 He was wearing a camouflage uniform. He looked at me and he

16 says, "Ah, you, the Dosens, there is a lot you need to account for."

17 Q. Did you say anything more, or that was it?

18 A. That was it.

19 Q. You were talking about here, Mrs. Dosen, about this tall officer,

20 and you also said that you didn't know his identity at time, but he was

21 addressed as Major Sljivancanin. Can you expand that a little bit more,

22 in what sense he was addressed as Mr. Sljivancanin, when you heard it?

23 A. In such a situation when one can't think straight, you grasp a

24 straw, if there is one. I tried to do something, I moved to -- towards

25 him, seeing he was a person with certain authority there, that he held a

Page 3805

1 rank. There were no regular JNA soldiers there, only the reservists and

2 the locals who joined them as well as the Chetniks. And I thought to

3 myself, He was the only person to turn to, since he was commanding there,

4 and if he should decide for me to go on that bus, so be it. Otherwise, I

5 still need to try something.

6 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Dosen. You mentioned also -- earlier that he was

7 addressed as -- if I heard it right, as Major Sljivancanin. Did you hear

8 that he was addressed to that specific name, Major Sljivancanin?

9 A. The soldiers around him were calling him Sir or Major, and they

10 told me, "Yes, this is Major Sljivancanin."

11 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Dosen. You mentioned here that you were told to

12 go to another direction and leaving your husband. Was that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And I would like you to look at another photograph now. And that

15 is with the same exhibit, 170, and that is --

16 JUDGE PARKER: Are you wanting to tender the one --

17 MS. TUMA: Yeah, I'm sorry, to tender this into evidence, yes,

18 please.

19 JUDGE PARKER: The one that has been marked by the witness will be

20 received as an exhibit.

21 THE REGISTRAR: The exhibit number will be 172, Your Honours.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

23 MS. TUMA: So the next photograph is Exhibit 170, and the ERN

24 number is 0053-1261. And I'm asking the witness if the witness has that

25 photograph available in front of her. Yes, she has.

Page 3806

1 Q. Mrs. Dosen, you mentioned here earlier when you described what

2 happened that military trucks arrived. Where were they coming from, and

3 from what spot did you see that?

4 A. Those military trucks had already been parked behind the hospital

5 at the time. That is, on the very edge of the photograph.

6 Q. Which edge, Mrs. Dosen?

7 A. To my left.

8 Q. Are you meaning this photograph or the other photograph that we

9 were looking at? I know you had this photograph 1261 in front of you.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. So do you mean that --

12 A. Pardon me. Yes.

13 Q. This photograph, Mrs. Dosen --

14 A. One can't see that on this photograph.

15 Q. Can you see it on the other photograph, 1260, if you turn back to

16 that? I'm sorry for the inconvenience.

17 A. On this photograph, right here, on my left side.

18 MS. TUMA: The witness --

19 JUDGE PARKER: The witness is pointing to a position at the left

20 bottom of the photograph, Exhibit 172. That is the roadway, but as far to

21 the left as the photograph shows it.

22 MS. TUMA:

23 Q. Did you see those military trucks, how many there were,

24 Mrs. Dosen?

25 A. There were three or four trucks. I'm certain that I saw two

Page 3807

1 parked there, and there were some wounded who couldn't walk on the trucks

2 already, and Martin was probably waiting his turn.

3 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Dosen. Now when we have this photograph up again,

4 can you please just show us without marking when -- where you saw your

5 husband as -- the last time?

6 A. Can you see this? Right here.

7 Q. Yes, thank you. And can you please -- we'll continue this

8 marking, mark where the military trucks were with the next letter.


10 MS. TUMA:

11 Q. And where Martin Dosen were left.


13 MS. TUMA:

14 Q. Can you please do that, Mrs. Dosen?

15 A. [Marks].

16 Q. Thank you, and I would like to have that tendered into evidence as

17 well?

18 JUDGE PARKER: It's an exhibit already.

19 MS. TUMA: Okay. Thank you.

20 Q. So, Mrs. Dosen, back to the other photograph --

21 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic.

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It seems to me there was a

23 misunderstanding when the witness was explaining. I failed to see the

24 letter J on the photograph. She was supposed to, as suggested by

25 Judge Parker, to mark the place where she saw her husband the last time

Page 3808

1 and the trucks were supposed to be marked with K.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Negative. J was the trucks; K was where the

3 witness saw her husband.

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes. But we don't see the letter J.

5 JUDGE PARKER: It's in the bushes. Camouflage, Mr. Lukic.

6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] My apologies.


8 Q. Okay, thank you. And now, Mrs. Dosen, move over to the next

9 photograph that we did have before, number -- ERN number 1261 at the end.

10 What happened next, Mrs. Dosen? You left your husband, and what

11 did you and Tanja do?

12 A. Tanja and I returned to the other women and children awaiting the

13 convoy and evacuation.

14 Q. Okay. And where did you go? Can you show us that on the

15 photograph here?

16 A. We went toward the main exit of the hospital, because the buses

17 were located there. So we moved from here to the main exit, and that's

18 where the convoy was formed. I wanted to add --

19 JUDGE PARKER: Can you see the position where the buses were on

20 the photograph that's in front of you?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The buses for the women and

22 children?


24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Or the wounded?

25 JUDGE PARKER: The women and children.

Page 3809

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Here. Where the parked cars

2 are. That's where the convoy was.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Now, that's at the very bottom edge,

4 lowest edge of the photograph. Is that correct?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. That's the main road going

6 through the town. And that's the main gate to the hospital.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Is that on the left lower corner of the photograph?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Now, is there reason for those to be

10 marked, Mrs. Tuma?

11 MS. TUMA: Yes, please, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Well, on this photograph I wonder whether you would

13 be good enough, Mrs. Dosen, to mark the main entrance of the hospital with

14 a letter A.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One could barely see the main

16 entrance.

17 JUDGE PARKER: It's almost off the photograph, isn't it?

18 THE WITNESS: [Marks].

19 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct.

21 JUDGE PARKER: And could you mark with letter Bs roughly where you

22 remember the buses for the women and children, letter B?

23 THE WITNESS: [Marks].

24 [Interpretation] It would be here. From the exit there were a

25 number of buses, seven or eight.

Page 3810

1 JUDGE PARKER: Did they stretch away to the right, as you're

2 looking at the photograph, along the roadway?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is correct.

4 JUDGE PARKER: I would suggest there is not a great deal of point,

5 Mrs. Tuma, in marking a number of Bs. We can get the impression.

6 Thank you, Mrs. Dosen.

7 Yes, Mrs. Tuma.

8 MS. TUMA: Thank you.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Is there something further with this photograph?

10 MS. TUMA: Not any more marking, but if it's easier for the

11 witness, so to say, to remember what took place.

12 JUDGE PARKER: I'm conscious of the time. I think we might have a

13 break now and then return to this photograph. What we will do, if you

14 tender it, is receive it as an exhibit now and then the witness may use it

15 to point out other things when she resumes her evidence.

16 MS. TUMA: Okay.

17 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

18 THE REGISTRAR: And received under the reference 173, Your

19 Honours.

20 JUDGE PARKER: We will resume at 25 minutes past 6.00.

21 --- Recess taken at 6.06 p.m.

22 --- On resuming at 6.29 p.m.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mrs. Tuma.

24 MS. TUMA: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Q. Mrs. Dosen, did you ever see the buses you were talking about

Page 3811

1 earlier, the four buses. Did you ever see them leave the area?

2 JUDGE PARKER: We better make more clear which buses. The

3 buses for the wounded or the buses for the women and children.

4 MS. TUMA: The four buses that Mrs. Dosen marked before for the

5 wounded.

6 JUDGE PARKER: The wounded, yes.

7 MS. TUMA: The buses E1 to E4.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Did you see them leave, Mrs. Dosen?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I no longer saw the buses because I

10 was returning toward the hospital, hence I could see them no longer.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

12 MS. TUMA:

13 Q. Mrs. Dosen, you mentioned also military trucks were arriving, and

14 you also showed us on one of the photographs. Did you ever see them

15 leaving the area?

16 A. Yes, I did see the trucks. I could see them from the place where

17 the women and children were. We saw the trucks with the wounded leave.

18 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Dosen. And after you had left your husband you

19 mentioned that you went to the other side of the hospital. And now we're

20 on the photograph number ERN number 1261. So when you were in this area

21 here, Mrs. Dosen, did you then see any representatives from the

22 international organisations present?

23 A. The representatives of the international community came

24 around 11.00. They first entered the hospital to make a list of the

25 wounded who remained in the hospital and they told us to go to the buses,

Page 3812

1 because that was supposed to be the convoy to evacuate us, and they were

2 together with us.

3 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Dosen. You mentioned that the military trucks,

4 you saw them leaving. And you also said here that the international

5 organisations came around 11.00. Was there any difference in time between

6 when you saw the military trucks leaving and when you saw the

7 international organisations present at around 11.00?

8 A. Yes. The difference between in that the buses and trucks left

9 after 8.00 a.m. and the representatives of the European Community came

10 around 11.00, so at that time there were neither the buses nor the trucks

11 behind the hospital.

12 Q. You're saying that the buses and trucks, they left after 8.00 a.m.

13 Is it close to 8.00 or what do you mean by "after 8.00 a.m."?

14 A. Yes. The evacuation began around 7.00 a.m., and we must have

15 waited for about an hour, hour and a half for the convoy to be formed.

16 And when I was returned to join the other women and children, then the

17 proper convoy was formed. The wounded were not put on the list by the

18 European Community representatives. They are simply non-existent in those

19 terms, and I would like to hear from Mr. Sljivancanin where he took them

20 to.

21 Q. Mrs. Dosen, we are -- I only want you to answer my questions,

22 please.

23 Can you please continue what you were saying before that when it

24 comes to the timing?

25 A. There was an hour or an hour and a half between the moment when

Page 3813

1 the trucks left or that is from the moment when I could no longer see

2 them, and the moment that the European Community representatives came.

3 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Dosen. And where did you end up finally on that

4 day, you and your daughter?

5 A. Myself, my daughter, Martin's mother, two under-age children,

6 Ljiljana, Tadija's wife, and her daughter Alma, we were all on the same

7 bus that was supposed to be evacuated.

8 Q. And, Mrs. Dosen, where did you end up finally? What location?

9 A. We were told that we will travel through Bogdanovci, being the

10 only Croatian village that was still open to communication, and via

11 Bogdanovci, we were supposed to reach Vinkovci. We boarded the buses, and

12 we were told that we are to go to Vinkovci and that we are being expected

13 there when we leave Vukovar, but things didn't go that way. We were taken

14 through the centre of the town toward Velepromet. As we were being

15 driven, the scene was horrific. There were people who tried to reach the

16 hospital, because they had heard about the convoy and the evacuation, but

17 they never managed to reach the hospital.

18 Q. Mrs. Dosen --

19 A. I presume that the liberators --

20 Q. Mrs. Dosen, you said you were taken to Velepromet. And directly

21 after that, where did you then go to next location, if there were any

22 location that you went to? Just the name, please.

23 A. Sremska Mitrovica.

24 Q. And was that the end location for you and your daughter, or were

25 you transported anywhere else after Sremska Mitrovica? And where to,

Page 3814

1 then?

2 A. From Sremska Mitrovica where we spent the night, we were told

3 there that Croatia won't have us, and that they don't know what to do with

4 us, that Zagreb cannot take us in, that they have too many already. And

5 we were told that we can go anywhere, provided it is a locality in Croatia

6 and not in Serbia. The international community representatives tried to

7 negotiate with them, and they managed to secure the route via Bijeljina to

8 reach Djakovo. Therefore, we travelled for two days and a night to

9 reach -- 60 kilometres to reach Djakovo. Instead we had to go all the

10 way through Bosnia to reach Djakovo. And then Tanja and I stayed in

11 Djakovo.

12 Q. And Mrs. Dosen, was that your final destination?

13 A. No. After Djakovo I went to Zagreb.

14 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Dosen. Just a matter of clarification. I would

15 like you now to lead you back to the hospital. What happened there,

16 just -- concerning just one issue, and one clarification, please. That --

17 did you ever, during the last two days on the 19th and the 20th November,

18 1991, did you have any direct dealings with Dr. Bosanac yourself?

19 A. No, never.

20 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Dosen. And after that I will go through some

21 exhibits. And that is concerning 65 ter exhibit number 243, starting with

22 the first page, with its ERN number 02189326. Thank you.

23 Mrs. Dosen, you told us earlier that there were a medical record

24 that you kept in your possession. Can you recognise this page?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3815

1 MS. TUMA: And for the Court, there is also an English

2 translation, bearing the number -- ERN number 00582903.

3 Q. Mrs. Dosen, can you please tell the Court what this page says that

4 you have in front of you now?

5 A. This page is my husband's case history, as well as the time and

6 date that he was admitted to the Vukovar Medical Centre. This was

7 attached to his bed. It's a document that I brought back from the Vukovar

8 Hospital and the original is in my possession.

9 Q. Can you please tell us where the date on this -- on this document

10 that Martin Dosen was admitted to the hospital, what date does that show

11 on this document?

12 A. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, it's square number

13 eight. It says date admitted, on the 16th of November, 1991.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 MS. TUMA: And then we can move on to the next page, page

16 number 2, bearing the ERN number 02189327. And also the English version,

17 it's 00582904.

18 Q. And Mrs. Dosen, this page that you have in front of you here now,

19 is that part of your medical record that you had in your possession from

20 the hospital?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And do you know what -- what is said on that page?

23 A. Well, as much as I can read, that he was admitted to the hospital,

24 that he had fallen from the third floor, fallen down from the third floor,

25 that his spine was to be X-rayed, and the rest appears to be in Latin.

Page 3816

1 Q. When the rest is in Latin, did you take any actions in order to

2 have that explained to you?

3 A. Yes. I asked Dr. Njavro and he explained it to me.

4 Q. Was there --

5 A. He was the one who admitted Martin to the hospital the first time

6 around, when he was wounded for the first time.

7 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Dosen. Were there any other doctor that did

8 explain this page for you, what it contained?

9 A. What's his name, he is an orthopaedist. Aleksijevic.

10 Q. That explanation, did you get that -- in what kind of form did you

11 get that explanation?

12 A. Martin was listed as missing, and I wanted to exercise whatever

13 rights I had as the wife of a missing Croat defender. I needed to apply

14 in order to get the documents to certify that Martin had been wounded, and

15 then I needed a doctor's translation of the exact diagnosis, and then

16 Dr. Aleksijevic obliged. He wrote up the finding and the explanation

17 attached to Martin's case history and wounding.

18 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Dosen. So now I would like to you see on another

19 document, to see if that is that explanation that you are talking about

20 right now. And the ERN number for the B/C/S version, so to say, is

21 02189333. And the English translation is bearing the number 00582907.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And we are --

24 A. That's the document.

25 Q. Okay. And also we are waiting to have -- is it -- do we have it

Page 3817

1 here on the screen as well? Okay.

2 Is this that document, Mrs. Dosen, that was -- you were talking

3 about giving you an explanation what was said in -- on page number 2 of

4 the medical record?

5 A. Yes, yes. That's the document.

6 Q. Okay, thank you.

7 MS. TUMA: And I would like for the Court also to tender the

8 English translation into evidence. And also the B/C/S version of course.

9 And I will go through the rest of the medical record, but I don't need to

10 read it out while I would like to tender it into evidence.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Do you want to tender the whole of the medical

12 report?

13 MS. TUMA: Yeah.

14 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

15 THE REGISTRAR: It will be received under reference 174, Your

16 Honours.

17 MS. TUMA: Thank you.

18 JUDGE PARKER: And now the translation?

19 MS. TUMA: Translation as well, yes, please.

20 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

21 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

22 JUDGE PARKER: It's been recorded under the same document, so it's

23 already become an exhibit as part of 174.

24 MS. TUMA: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Q. Mrs. Dosen, now we turn to another page here that is part of the

Page 3818

1 medical record as far as I can see it. And that is bearing the ERN

2 number 02189330. So that is the B/C/S version, yes, that's it.

3 And then I will, for the Court, mention the English version that

4 is 00582905.

5 Have you seen this document before, Mrs. Dosen? This page?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And when did you --

8 A. I have the original.

9 Q. Okay. Can you please explain what we can see on that page as far

10 as concerning your knowledge of it?

11 A. This is a temperature chart charting the patient's temperature on

12 a daily basis. So if you look at the chart, you can see the dates right

13 there, the 16th of November, which is the day that Martin was admitted to

14 the hospital, the 17th, the 18th, the 19th, and the 20th is the last date

15 that we have any data in relation to. Which means that that was the day

16 he left the hospital.

17 Q. Can you read out from this document what date the temperature was

18 taken on Martin Dosen?

19 A. It says here under number one, the 16th of November, number two,

20 the 17th of November, number three, the 18th of November. We have no

21 entries in relation to the 19th or the 20th.

22 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Dosen.

23 A. You're welcome.

24 Q. Finally I would like to deal with one last document that you

25 mentioned briefly before. And that is bearing the --

Page 3819

1 JUDGE PARKER: Do you want to tender the --

2 MS. TUMA: Yes, the whole medical record, that is part of that.

3 JUDGE PARKER: It is already part, okay.

4 MS. TUMA: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. The next and the last document is bearing the B/C/S, so to say,

6 ERN number 02189332. English version is 00582906. I would like to tender

7 that as well into evidence.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Is that part of Exhibit 174?

9 MS. TUMA: Yes. My understanding, it's part of that. Right?

10 Yeah. Okay.

11 Q. Mrs. Dosen, can you please explain as to what this document says?

12 A. This certifies that the first time Martin was wounded was in

13 August when he was wounded in his leg by a shell. He received outpatient

14 treatment by Dr. Juraj Njavro. As I said earlier, I had to gather all

15 these documents, because Martin was no longer alive, and I had certain

16 entitlements as the wife of a fallen Croatian defender, but I had to have

17 everything black and white, in writing. And I believed both Dr. Njavro

18 and Dr. Aleksijevic will be glad to confirm this for you.

19 Q. Okay. Thank you, Mrs. Dosen. I'm done with my

20 examination-in-chief, Your Honour. Thank you so much.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mrs. Tuma.

22 You have the option, Mr. Vasic. We can break now, or you can have

23 six minutes.

24 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I could go on for six

25 minutes, but that is certainly no more than three questions. If that's

Page 3820

1 what it takes, I'm ready. But perhaps the witness might prefer to start

2 afresh tomorrow.

3 JUDGE PARKER: [Microphone not activated] I think we will call it

4 a day then, Mr. Vasic, and you can be ready for a speedy cross-examination

5 tomorrow.

6 Mrs. Dosen, we will adjourn now for the day, and we will resume

7 tomorrow again at 2.15. The court officer who is with you will give you

8 detailed instructions about tomorrow.

9 But we will now adjourn and we will continue tomorrow. Thank you.

10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.56 p.m.,

11 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 7th day of

12 February, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.