1 Tuesday, 7 February 2006
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon, and to you Mrs. Dosen, good
6 afternoon. May I remind you of the affirmation you made at the beginning
7 of your evidence, which still applies. Now Mr. Vasic has some questions
8 for you on behalf of one of the accused men.
9 Mr. Vasic.
10 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
11 WITNESS: LJUBICA DOSEN [Resumed]
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon to all of those present
14 in the courtroom and good afternoon to Mrs. Dosen.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
16 [Witness testified through videolink]
17 Cross-examination by Mr. Vasic:
18 Q. Before I begin my cross-examination, I wanted to ask you the
19 following: Since we both speak the same language, please pause between
20 question and answer for the sake of the interpreters so that both the
21 question and the answer could be interpreted fully and so that everyone in
22 the courtroom could understand what we are talking about.
23 Yesterday when my colleague Prosecutor was examining you, you said
24 that your first husband was a JNA officer. Isn't that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. You had two children, a daughter and a son?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You separated from your husband in 1974?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. After the divorce, did the children stay living with you or with
6 the husband?
7 A. With me.
8 Q. In 1975 you married Mr. Martin Dosen. Isn't that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. He also had two children from his first marriage; a son and
11 daughter, born in 1972 and 1973?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did his children live with you after you married Mr. Dosen?
14 A. No, they lived with their mother, Marija Bozanovic, but over the
15 weekend they would come to see us.
16 Q. In 1977 your daughter Tanja was born?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. At that time you lived in Mose Pijade Street. Could you please
19 tell us what part of Vukovar that is?
20 A. To try to make it clearer, it is close to the Nama department
21 store and the Castle Eltz, that is between the castle and the department
22 store. Now it no longer exists.
23 Q. Since it was a rather large house, did any of Martin Dosen's
24 brothers or sisters reside with you or did you live there alone as a
25 single family unit?
1 A. It was just our immediate family.
2 Q. After you stopped working at Borovo, at a certain point you opened
3 a fish restaurant together with your husband under the name of Martina.
4 Could you please tell us where it was located?
5 A. Yes. It was on an island across the river from the city of
6 Vukovar. The island's name was Mala Ada.
7 Q. You said that your husband used to be a professional fisherman.
8 Could you tell us what was his occupation before that?
9 A. Like myself, he was an employee of the Borovo company. We both
10 quit our jobs and became private entrepreneurs.
11 Q. Your husband used to be an athlete as well when he was young.
12 Could you tell us what sport he practiced?
13 A. He used to be a boxer and he boxed for the local club, Borovo.
14 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us whether your husband used to know
15 Zeljko Raznjatovic, aka Arkan?
16 A. Yes, he knew Zeljko. I guess it was through their gambling
17 habits, as far as my husband told me.
18 Q. Pardon me, but I need to ask you this question. Did your husband
19 ever commit any illegal acts?
20 A. Yes, when he was still a minor.
21 Q. Thank you. You said that your husband was a member of the HDZ and
22 that he supported their policies as expressed by the party back in 1990.
23 Isn't that correct?
24 A. Yes, that's what he told me, and it was his decision, although I
25 can't tell you exactly what he agreed to or with and not. I can only
1 speak for myself.
2 Q. Thank you. Yesterday you told us you were not a member of the
3 HDZ, that's why I won't inquire any further, but I will move to another
4 topic. Were Martin Dosen's brothers members of the HDZ as well?
5 A. No, they were members of the Yugoslav party.
6 Q. Did you or your husband know Mr. Tomislav Mercep at the time?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. In his activities inside the party, did your husband cooperate
9 with Mr. Mercep?
10 A. I can't be certain, I don't know. I believe so, but I'm not sure.
11 Q. Is it correct that your husband was not only a member of the
12 party, but he also supported it financially through donations?
13 A. I believe so.
14 Q. Did your husband, together with Mr. Mercep, participate in the
15 purchase of 700 [Realtime transcript read in error "200"] Kalashnikovs for
16 HDZ members?
17 A. To the best of my knowledge, I can't offer any help on that. I
18 don't know.
19 Q. My apologies, a correction for the transcript, page 4, line 14, it
20 states 200 Kalashnikovs whereas the correct number is 700. Thank you.
21 As far as I understood, you said you didn't know whether he
22 participated in that or not. But do you know whether Mr. Mercep indeed
23 purchased 700 Kalashnikovs for HDZ members?
24 A. My husband may have known, but I wasn't privy to that, and I
25 wasn't a participant of that.
1 Q. Thank you. Did you give a statement to the investigators of the
2 OTP on the 22nd of August, 1995? Do you remember that?
3 A. Yes, I did.
4 Q. Do you remember that you told the investigator that the local HDZ
5 purchased around 700 Kalashnikovs in August 1991?
6 A. Yes. But I said that I heard that people were saying that Martin
7 was one of the donors in the purchase of the weapons.
8 Q. Thank you. Did your husband tell you anything about the spring of
9 1991 and the forming of voluntary units of the HDZ headed by Mr. Mercep?
10 MS. TUMA: Your Honour.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In all honesty --
12 JUDGE PARKER: Could you please pause, please, Mrs. Dosen.
13 Yes, Mrs. Tuma.
14 MS. TUMA: Sorry to interrupt here, but going back to the OTP
15 statement and by the reference of this specific sentence, what the Defence
16 counsel is referring back to in the OTP statement, and that is the last
17 paragraph and the last sentence, and that is that the local HDZ bought
18 about 700 Kalashnikovs, rifles. But in the transcripts here there are
19 another wording of that, I think. Wasn't it so? "I heard that people
20 were saying that Martin" --
21 JUDGE PARKER: Microphone, Mrs. Tuma.
22 MS. TUMA: Sorry. "I heard that people were saying that Martin
23 was one of the donors in the purchase of the weapons." So there is a --
24 JUDGE PARKER: That is what the witness said. But I think you may
25 not have accurately quoted the statement, Mr. Vasic.
1 MS. TUMA: That's my point. Thank you.
2 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I quoted the statement
3 exactly, and I didn't inquire anything about the donation from the
4 witness, she said that herself. And I believe she herself had mentioned
5 that Martin was one of the donors. She confirmed today that she has heard
6 of that.
7 JUDGE PARKER: She has said that she doesn't know whether he was a
8 contributor. She agrees that she told the OTP that she had heard that he
9 was. I think that's where we've reached. Thank you.
10 Yes, Mrs. Tuma.
11 MS. TUMA: No further comments, so thank you. That's fine.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Would you -- I beg your pardon. Yes, okay.
13 Mr. Vasic.
14 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Q. To go back to the period after May 1991, and yesterday you were
16 describing the events that took place then, and the situation as it was in
17 Vukovar after that. I'm interested in the following: Did you know that
18 in Vukovar at the time there was a change of directors in certain
19 companies. Those of Serb origin were removed and replaced by those of
20 Croatian origin. Are you familiar with that?
21 A. To the best of my knowledge I can't answer that, I don't know.
22 Q. Thank you. We're still talking about May, June and July of 1991.
23 Did you hear explosions during the night in Vukovar?
24 A. They occurred more in Borovo Naselje than where we were. In
25 Vukovar it was -- it appeared as late as July, but in Borovo Selo, it
1 started prior to that.
2 Q. Could you also hear bursts from automatic rifles fired from moving
3 vehicles during that period?
4 A. At that time everyone was nervous and upset, and any sort of
5 movement became suspicious, to be honest.
6 Q. Thank you. Where did Martin Dosen's brothers live at that time,
7 Tadija and Ivan? What part of Vukovar?
8 A. Tadija lived in his apartment block at Dunavska 1, and Ivan, aka
9 Braco, lived with their mother at Olajnica number 12, the same as myself.
10 Q. We know more or less where Olajnica is. What about Dunavska, what
11 part of Vukovar that is, that's where Tadija used to live?
12 A. Those are two high-rises, both on the banks of the Danube. That
13 is close to Castle Eltz.
14 Q. You said that your husband was a professional fisherman. In June,
15 July and early August of 1991, did he ever come across a corpse in the
16 Danube while fishing?
17 A. No. For your information, he helped a lot of Serbs to cross the
18 Danube. He used his boat.
19 Q. Thank you. Tell me, why were the Serbs running across the
20 Danube? Why were they crossing the Danube?
21 A. I don't know. I am not aware of them being in any danger, at
22 least as far as I'm concerned, as well as my family. As for their other
23 reasons, they are the only one who could answer to that.
24 Q. You said that you didn't know of any danger to them, but did any
25 of your Serb friends tell you that they feel threatened?
1 A. They never said they were scared, but they simply said that they
2 didn't like what was happening and that they'd prefer to leave, and so
3 they did.
4 Q. Thank you. Yesterday you told us that at a certain point Vukovar
5 residents organised themselves and organised guard duties so that one
6 couldn't reach the centre of the town from the nearby villages.
7 Therefore, that was the effective control of entry into the city. I'm
8 interested in the existence of barricades in the outskirts of Vukovar,
9 such as Borovo Selo, Sajmiste and Mitnica?
10 A. If I am going to speak about Sajmiste and Mitnica, I can only tell
11 you what I heard and what other people were talking about, but personally
12 I never left the centre of the city.
13 Q. Thank you. Did Martin Dosen's brothers at a certain point join
14 the National Corps Guard?
15 A. I believe Tadija was performing guarding duty; and Ivan, I believe
16 he was with Mercep. They used to see them together. Yet again I need to
17 reiterate that I spent most of my time with the children, and I don't know
18 what the men were doing and what decisions they made.
19 Q. Thank you. Do you know whether Martin Dosen's son Alen also
20 joined National Guards Corps, and do you know that he was wounded at a
21 certain point?
22 A. Yes, I do know that. Alen used to come from Borovo Naselje to
23 Vukovar and he was wounded then. I don't know whether he was with the
24 National Guards Corps or whether he just performed guarding duties.
25 Q. Thank you. What about Martin Jakubovski? Did he belong to any
1 military formation in Vukovar?
2 A. Yes. Little Martin did.
3 Q. I believe he did belong to the National Guards Corps.
4 A. Yes, he was a registered member.
5 Q. Yesterday you told us where your husband was during the combat
6 operations in Vukovar. I'm interested in whether he was a reserve officer
7 within the military formation that he served with?
8 A. No, he wasn't a reserve officer. He was a candidate for an
9 officer and he received that from the Ministry of Defence, but this has
10 been awarded to him posthumously. During the operations in Vukovar, he
11 held no rank.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, he was posthumously
13 awarded the rank of warrant officer.
14 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Yesterday you mentioned some other events in Vukovar of 1991, and
16 you said that Martin was wounded for the first time in August 1991. Can
17 you tell me what was the second time that he got wounded, when was that?
18 A. He was wounded the second time when Tadija's nephew Velibor was
19 killed. His body was in the street, and Martin learned of that and he
20 tried to pull him out, to remove the body, and his mother at that time
21 still didn't know that he was killed. From the direction of the Danube,
22 he was hit by a -- by a sniper and he had an entrance/exit wound on his
23 upper arm.
24 Q. Did you tell the OTP investigators that your husband was wounded
25 for the first time in August, when he was wounded by shrapnel, and the
1 second time in October when he was hit by sniper in his arm. Do you
2 remember that?
3 A. Yes, I do.
4 Q. Thank you. If you recall, can you tell us who let you know that
5 he was wounded for the second time when he was wounded by a sniper, if you
7 A. Yes. Martin came back from the hospital, they treated him there,
8 and they immobilised his arm. After that he came to Olajnica, and he
9 spent all of his time there until he jumped off the balcony and left for
10 the hospital for good.
11 Q. Did he tell you then which doctor saw him at the time and treated
13 A. Don't hold me to it, I'm not sure whether it was Dr. Aleksijevic
14 or Dr. Njavro. It was one of the two.
15 Q. If you remember, could you tell me the following: On that
16 occasion was it a wound caused by bullet that went through the muscles, or
17 did it -- did the bullet break any bones? Were there any complications?
18 A. The bullet went through the muscle tissue, not through the bone.
19 Q. Unfortunately you no longer possess the original hospital
20 documents concerning this particular wounding, I suppose? When he was
21 wounded for the second time by the sniper. Do you have any medical
23 A. No, not for that wounding.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 A. You're welcome.
1 Q. As you told my learned friend from the Prosecution yesterday, for
2 certain administrative purposes you obtained an opinion from
3 Dr. Aleksijevic about your husband's injuries. And that document was
4 admitted into evidence under number 174. Can you tell us on the basis of
5 what Dr. Aleksijevic wrote the findings entitled "case history" or the
6 history of the illness?
7 A. Yes, because Dr. Aleksijevic treated him at the Vukovar Hospital.
8 And I needed the document in order to be able to prove this for Martin.
9 Since he was absent, I had to prove that it was him, indeed.
10 Q. Yes, madam, I've gathered that much. So Mr. Aleksijevic had no
11 documents, no hospital files on the basis of which to draw up the report.
12 He did it from memory, right?
13 A. This is also indicated in the second document, and I've got the
14 original, and it says why Martin was hospitalised as of the 16th of
15 December [as interpreted] 1991.
16 Q. Thank you very much. Now, in the report drafted by
17 Mr. Aleksijevic it does not say that the patient was shot through a
18 muscle. It refers to a right elbow that he was shot at, plus a
19 complicated damaged bone. And it is totally different from what you've
20 told us from what you know, basically.
21 A. I'm not a medical doctor. Presumably Dr. Aleksijevic is more of
22 an expert than I am. All I knew was that he was shot. As to what
23 complications there were, perhaps there were complications when Martin
24 fell, because the arm had already been immobilised, and then maybe when he
25 fell the bones of the elbow had been further damaged. But when he fell
1 off the balcony the arm had already been injured before, so maybe he
2 sustained further injuries after the fall.
3 Q. Thank you. I was just waiting for the translation to come
5 You said that the muscle was damaged. Do you feel that there
6 might be a possibility that the wound was actually more along the lines of
7 the description provided by Dr. Aleksijevic?
8 A. Yes. I have every trust and confidence in Dr. Aleksijevic.
9 Q. Thank you. Thank you. You told us yesterday about how on the
10 16th of November your husband sustained the injury because of which he was
11 taken to the Vukovar Hospital on that day. Can you tell me, you mentioned
12 to my colleague that you moved from your house to the apartment in
13 Olajnica. As of then, did you spend all of your time in that apartment on
14 the third floor of that building with your husband and daughter?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. How many floors were there in that building, can you tell me?
17 A. Seven.
18 Q. So it's one of the rare high-rises in Vukovar. There were not
19 that many, right?
20 A. It's an entire neighbourhood, which is called Olajnica, and there
21 are 18 buildings there.
22 Q. And in other parts of Vukovar, apart from Borovo Naselje, am I
23 correct in saying that most of the buildings were low and that there were
24 no other high-rises there, except in the neighbourhood called Olajnica?
25 A. Well, you're wrong there, because there were three or four
1 different neighbourhoods with tall buildings in Vukovar. Around the
2 hospital, behind the hospital, and in the direction of Sajmiste. I won't
3 go into the whole list, but there are at least three or four different
5 Q. Thank you. Tell me, had you heard about people staying in their
6 apartments in all of those neighbourhoods or did they spend their time in
8 A. Those buildings, at least in the case of Olajnica, I mean not a
9 single one of those buildings had a cellar or a shelter of any sort.
10 There was just one shelter, purpose-built shelter before the war, in case
11 of need. But there were quite a few people there, so not everyone from
12 that neighbourhood could fit in, so people stayed in their apartments.
13 Q. I suppose you are talking about the nuclear shelter, which was
14 built for special purposes?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Were you not afraid to stay in a multi-storey building in spite of
17 what you told us yesterday about the intensity of the attacks on Vukovar,
18 did you not fear for your life or the life of your daughter?
19 A. I did. I was scared. And that's why I haven't come to the
20 courtroom, because I suffer from claustrophobia, and I can't be in close
21 spaces, and we just couldn't get out of the buildings. And now I still
22 suffer the consequences. And we couldn't fit into any shelters because
23 there was just not enough room for everyone.
24 Q. Could you not look for another shelter, since your husband worked
25 in the immediate vicinity of the Crisis Staff in Vukovar?
1 A. No, we couldn't go there, because there were no women and children
2 there, and my husband didn't want us to be there. He wanted us to stay
3 with other women and children. He wanted for us to be surrounded by other
5 Q. Thank you. Yesterday you told us that you were observing
6 artillery attacks on people who went to collect water. Can you tell us
7 where from could you observe that and what part of the year was it, what
8 season? Do you remember?
9 A. Yes, I do remember. It was as late as October; it was getting
10 cold. We didn't have any windows, and my flat faces the house where the
11 well was, because the whole building faces the row of those houses there,
12 and so I could see the well quite clearly from my apartment. I could see
13 the house, and the well was in the courtyard of that house.
14 Q. So the well was amongst several houses, if I have understood you
16 A. It's in a courtyard of a specific house.
17 Q. And then next to it there is another house and then another house
18 on the other side? That's what I meant.
19 A. Yes, that's correct. It's just that there were no houses left
20 because they had all been destroyed.
21 Q. Can you agree with me that a well in such surroundings would not
22 have been easily and readily visible?
23 A. Perhaps so, but perhaps there were other wells. Later on it
24 turned out that the -- there was the chartered surveyor who was in charge
25 of all those arctic wells and he was at the barracks. I can't actually
1 remember the name of the man and I don't know him myself, but I heard
2 stories from other people.
3 Q. Did he belong to the group of people that you called reserve --
4 reservists yesterday, mostly locals?
5 A. It may be true, but I can't really claim it with any degree of
6 certainty because I don't know the man, but I heard other people talking
7 about it.
8 Q. And was it somebody from Vukovar or somebody who had come from
9 somewhere else? What did you hear? Was it somebody local?
10 A. Yes, I heard he was local.
11 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me whether you have ever heard about the
12 existence of -- about the Territorial Defence, the Serb Territorial
13 Defence Vukovar?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us how far that well was from your
16 high-rise building?
17 A. Perhaps a hundred metres. I don't want to overdo it. Roughly
18 speaking, a hundred metres, as if the other end of a large-ish courtyard.
19 Q. Isn't it rather close? If you could see shells landing that
20 close, weren't you afraid that you might be hit in your apartment?
21 A. You know, if you have no water, and you ask somebody to bring some
22 water to you, you accept to watch at least. We had had to learn how to
23 live with fear.
24 Q. I can understand that you've reconciled yourselves to a life in
25 fear, but did you also accept the fact that something might happen to your
2 A. Yes. My daughter, in much the same way as I did, knew that we had
3 nowhere else to go, that we had to be there, and we learned how to live
4 under such circumstances. And I can tell you that there were Serb
5 children and -- women and children of Serb nationality on the same floor
6 of the building, and during the war we got along fine, and my then
7 neighbours are still living there, and we still lived together peacefully
8 and well, and I can claim this 100 per cent. We learned how to live
9 together in that corridor, basically.
10 Q. Thank you. When did your building take first hit; can you tell
12 A. Our building, well, the roof of our building and the seventh and
13 the sixth floor were blown off, basically, as early as mid-October. There
14 was no roof left, and the sixth and the seventh floors where missing.
15 Q. Thank you. There were any other hits, or was it the only time
16 that your building was hit in October?
17 A. At some point in September, or the beginning of October, my
18 mother-in-law's flat was hit as well and the entire balcony fell off. So
19 my mother-in-law and my sister-in-law's children came down to where we
20 were on the third floor.
21 Q. Thank you very much. You mentioned the 16th of November and how
22 you were inside the building and the building was hit. You came out of
23 the building and your husband stayed behind to help your neighbour.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Do you actually know what went on in the building? Did you ask
1 him or was it just an assumption? I mean what you said yesterday, did you
2 just assume that?
3 A. Tanja and myself ran out of the building because Martin told us to
4 get out, and we got out together with other neighbours. And one flat was
5 hit, and there was heating oil there and it caught fire, and so there was
6 a lot of smoke, and my husband could no longer see anything. He couldn't
7 even see the stairs, so he stayed on that floor. But we were standing in
8 front of the building and we were shouting to him to try and come down,
9 but he didn't dare. He didn't dare go through all that smoke. And then
10 we tried to get a rope to him so that he could come down from the balcony,
11 but considering his weight and his injured hand, he just couldn't take it
12 anymore, and between the two floors he fell off, basically, and Tanja and
13 myself were in front of the building. We watched.
14 Q. Yes, you mentioned that yesterday. What I'm interested in now is
15 you said that he stayed behind in order to help out an elderly neighbour
16 who lived in the same building and you said that this elderly lady
17 actually came down the stairs and got out of the building. Now, why
18 didn't Mr. Martin get out of the building as well together with her? Did
19 you ask him about it?
20 A. Yes, I did ask him afterwards at the hospital. But he told me
21 that she told him that there was somebody in the neighbouring flat as
22 well, that she heard some movement, and so he went to see. And then the
23 lady in question had come out, and she said Martin is still in the
24 building. I think there's somebody else. But then it turned out it was
25 just a parrot, and so basically Martin stayed behind because of that
1 parrot, and he no longer could exit the building through the stairs.
2 Q. You said that you got a rope to him. How did you manage to do
3 that since he was on the third floor of the building? Who managed to do
5 A. There were other men in the building who did not go to any
6 fighting positions, and there were two -- I don't know, they were not from
7 our building, so I don't know exactly who they were, but they tied a rope
8 and they got a kind of pole and they were swinging the rope from the pole
9 up until the moment they actually managed to catch the railing of the
10 balcony, and so that's how they got the rope to Martin.
11 Q. And since you said they were men, didn't they try to get into the
12 building and help him out by the staircase? Did you not ask them to do
13 something like that before he tried coming down a rope from the balcony as
14 you described?
15 A. Well, Tanja was almost hysterical. She was crying and she was
16 crying for her father, and so I was very busy trying to calm her down,
17 because she could see that Martin set out from that balcony and she was
18 fully aware that he would not make it, and so she was crying really hard.
19 And at that particular moment, well, I -- I didn't have time to think. I
20 didn't have time to think why nobody else went back into the building and
21 tried to help him that way. I would have been happy if somebody had gone
22 in to help him, but I myself was not brave or strong enough to do it.
23 Q. Thank you. You told us that Mr. Martin was transported to
24 hospital and that you and your daughter stayed behind in the building. Is
25 that right?
1 A. Can you repeat the question, please? Because I haven't heard you.
2 Q. No problem, just a moment. I asked you: After this event,
3 Mr. Martin was taken to hospital, and you and your daughter Tanja stayed
4 behind in that building, right?
5 A. Martin was taken to hospital, but Tanja and myself did not stay in
6 the building anymore, because our flat was burnt down, so we moved to the
7 building number 14.
8 Q. Who were you with in that building?
9 A. Well, we were looking for empty flats, and whenever we saw that
10 there was an empty flat, we would just go in. Nobody asked any questions
11 about whose flat it was. If it was empty -- people were just looking for
12 a roof over their heads.
13 Q. Can you tell us, do you remember how Mr. Martin was dressed on
14 that day, on the 16th of November? If you remember, that is.
15 A. I can't remember exactly what trousers he had on. I think --
16 well, I think he had a kind of jeans, and a V-necked vest, because he
17 couldn't wear a jumper because his arm was in a cast, and -- and a checked
18 shirt was thrown over him when he was on the stretcher. That's what I
19 did. And then when I came to the hospital, I could see that his trousers
20 were gone. He only had his swimmers on, basically, and this V-necked
22 Q. Thank you. You are telling us that he had this sleeveless vest
23 and a pair of trousers, but this is the month of November, your windows
24 had been shattered. Why wasn't he wearing warmer clothes?
25 A. We had a dining-room in our flat, and Martin had put nylon
1 sheeting over windows and he managed to get an oil stove and we could heat
2 the room and so it wasn't all that cold there. Obviously when he left to
3 go out he would throw a jacket over his shoulders. But when he fell off
4 the balcony, he didn't really have time to think about getting dressed.
5 Q. Thank you. Do you know, since you didn't accompany him, but did
6 you find out later whether upon arrival at hospital he was registered,
7 entered into the hospital books and who was the doctor who admitted him
8 and treated him first, and do you know what the diagnosis was?
9 A. When I came to visit him at the hospital, when I talked to him, he
10 just told me that he was examined by Dr. Aleksijevic and that he told him
11 that according to his knowledge, since they didn't have an X-ray machine,
12 but he was an orthopaedic surgeon as well, Dr. Aleksijevic, and he told
13 him that according to his experience, he thought that the second, the
14 third and the fourth vertebrae were broken, and he didn't know whether any
15 nerves had been damaged. And he said that he should be treated somewhere
16 else. When they could be evacuated, he said that he should be examined
17 more thoroughly. That's what Martin told me. As to who was the doctor
18 who actually admitted him, I don't know.
19 Q. Thank you. And did he mention anything about being examined by
20 Dr. Juraj Njavro on that occasion or not?
21 A. Martin didn't tell me that Dr. Juraj Njavro examined him as well,
22 but they were on the same team. As to who was allocated to whom, I really
23 can't help you much with this.
24 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us what Mr. Martin was wearing when you
25 went to visit him at the hospital? What did he look like? What was he
2 A. He had this V-necked brown vest and a pair of swimmers. He didn't
3 even have pyjamas.
4 Q. Did he have his cast?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Was he wearing anything else?
7 A. No.
8 Q. He had no other plaster, apart from the splint on his arm?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Thank you. When you came there, was he lying on a bed or on a
12 A. On a bed.
13 Q. Did he have a pillow, a blanket on that bed, if you can remember?
14 A. Yes, he did. He had both.
15 Q. When you came, was he on his back, on his side, or on his stomach?
16 A. He was on his back. When I came he told me he was starving. I
17 had some bread with me, and I spread some pate over a slice of bread, but
18 I had to lift his bed up, at least the part where his head was, because he
19 couldn't move from his waist up. Otherwise his head would tilt backwards.
20 Therefore, I raised that part of his bed and gave him some food.
21 Q. Could he move his limbs?
22 A. He could move his arms. When I was lying next to his feet, he
23 didn't react, didn't move. Later on he said that he felt some warmth when
24 I was lying there. I don't know whether through additional treatment he
25 would get his legs back or not, but the fact is that he couldn't get off
1 the bed and stand on his own two feet.
2 Q. Could he move his legs at all? Were you able to observe that?
3 A. When I asked him to move his legs, he replied he couldn't.
4 Q. Thank you. Do you remember saying to the OTP investigator as part
5 of the statement we had mentioned, did you tell him that you told him that
6 Martin injured his spine, that he couldn't walk, but could move his legs,
7 although he couldn't stand? Do you remember saying that to that
8 particular investigator?
9 A. There may have been some misunderstanding there because I said he
10 could move his arms and not his legs. He did move his arms. He used
11 them, but not his legs. I apologise, I'm quite certain I said that he
12 could move his arms but not his legs, because he was unable to stand.
13 Q. It is possible, but I was just reading from the statement, has
14 this statement been read out to you in Croatian, and did you sign it?
15 A. I believe you when you say that you read from the statement, but I
16 really don't remember that I read the same thing, otherwise I would have
17 warned them. Therefore, I offer my apologies if this is my fault.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Mrs. Tuma.
19 MS. TUMA: Sorry to interrupt here. I would like to suggest if
20 the witness are advised to read from the statement or confirm what is said
21 in the statement, then that the witness should have that statement in
22 front of her.
23 JUDGE PARKER: We haven't quite reached that point yet.
24 MS. TUMA: Okay.
25 JUDGE PARKER: I'm sure Mr. Vasic will keep it in mind if he
1 reaches that point.
2 MS. TUMA: Thank you.
3 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Certainly, Your Honour. I tried to
4 save some time and to try to deal with this in a less painful manner, and
5 I believe it has been dealt with, to a certain extent. Otherwise, there
6 is no -- it's not necessary to put the witness -- put the statement before
7 the witness due to the technical difficulty of the circumstances.
8 Q. Thank you, madam. Can you confirm, based on what Dr. Aleksijevic
9 put together the report you used to prove the status of your husband and
10 to establish the rights that you had, the first time you mentioned it, you
11 said that he wrote that from his memory because he had no documentation,
12 the first event of wounding. What about the event of the 16th of
13 November? Do you know what it is that he used to back up the report and
14 the case history?
15 A. I brought the documentation I had to Dr. Aleksijevic, those are
16 the records from the hospital, and based on the findings stipulated on the
17 back of the paper. And he told me that on that first occasion he admitted
18 Martin to the hospital and that he was familiar with his injuries. That's
19 how he wrote the report.
20 Q. You will agree, I believe, that there is an inconsistency between
21 what you told us today about where Martin Dosen was injured on the 16th of
22 November and what is stated in the report included in the case history?
23 Dr. Aleksijevic wrote there that Mr. Dosen was injured on the front line
24 and not at home?
25 JUDGE PARKER: Are you able to remember what you told the OTP,
1 Mrs. Dosen? If not, you could have a look at the statement. But if you
2 can remember, well, then, if you can, answer Mr. Vasic's question.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I remember that statement.
4 Perhaps I could take a look. In any case, Dr. Aleksijevic wrote the
5 statement in Zagreb after the exile in order to prove Martin's status.
6 Since he was still considered a missing person, I had to prove that he was
7 in the hospital in Vukovar and that he went missing from there. I had to
8 prove that it was him, and then I used the documentation I had from the
9 Vukovar Hospital. And having in mind that Dr. Aleksijevic treated Martin
10 in the hospital, he defined his general status, including the injuries
11 sustained after the fall. He said that Martin was in his -- on his
12 position because he was keeping guard inside the building. That's why
13 Dr. Aleksijevic thought that that was where Martin was deployed, that that
14 was his position there inside the building. That's why he formulated it
15 in such manner.
16 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Thank you, madam.
18 A. You're welcome.
19 Q. You said that on the 17th, in the evening, you went to the
20 hospital. Would you agree with me if I told you that we heard from
21 several witnesses that the shelling of Vukovar lasted until the 17th of
22 November and that it ceased afterwards, although there was still some
23 shooting from small arms? Would you agree with such a statement? That is
24 that there was no shelling after the 17th?
25 A. With all due respect, but I wouldn't agree. You should believe us
1 that that night of the 17th, when we moved from Adica, if you know where
2 that forest is, you could hear shelling and there was shelling, indeed. I
3 wouldn't tell you something that never happened. Take my word for it, it
5 Q. What about the very centre of Vukovar and the hospital itself?
6 Was there any shooting and shelling there, or were there -- was there
7 shelling just next to Adica?
8 A. At the time when we reached the hospital we no longer heard any
10 Q. Thank you, madam. Yesterday you mentioned that the people of
11 Vukovar learned that they should go to the hospital because of the
12 evacuation as early as the 17th. Can you tell us who told them that, and
13 who provided such information to them, if you know?
14 A. As I mentioned, Martin, who was in the hospital, knew that there
15 was going to be an evacuation and he sent two guys who were in the
16 hospital who could walk to come to our building. When I was leaving the
17 building I didn't want to leave by myself, so I told some of the
18 neighbours, they told some other people. And everyone had some their own
19 family wounded in the hospital, and they all tried their best to tell
20 everyone else to go to the hospital.
21 Q. After your arrival to the hospital, did you hear that Dr. Bosanac
22 told her medical staff to tell the civilians to go to Velepromet and not
23 to the hospital and that Mrs. Zeljka Zgonjanin from the Red Cross in
24 Vukovar was supposed to organise the transport from the hospital to
25 Velepromet so that the civilians would then be evacuated from Velepromet?
1 A. Yes, that is correct. I was present when we were told to go to
2 Velepromet. Personally, I wanted to be in the hospital because of my
3 husband, but half of the people left from the hospital to Velepromet to be
4 evacuated from there.
5 Q. Thank you, madam. Yesterday you explained to us why you decided
6 to remain in the hospital. You also said that on the 18th you saw
7 Mr. Marin Vidic and Ms. Vesna Bosanac in the hospital. Could you confirm
8 that indeed, did you see Mr. Marin Vidic at the time in the hospital?
9 A. I saw Mrs. Vesna Bosanac, and Mr. Vidic, I didn't see him. I saw
10 the two of them leave, but as far as their coming back is concerned, I
11 only saw Dr. Bosanac.
12 Q. Yesterday during examination-in-chief you said that you heard
13 later that Mrs. Bosanac went to negotiate the evacuation on the 18th. If
14 I were to tell you that Dr. Bosanac herself said that she went to
15 negotiate evacuation to Negoslavci on the 19th, would you allow for the
16 possibility that you may be confused about the dates?
17 A. Yes, there is such a possibility. A lot of time passed. I'm no
18 longer certain about the dates or the hour of the day. More or less all
19 of the days were the same, and it is difficult to remember particular
20 days. I am quite certain, though, that it was in the evening, and that
21 she did return. Whether it was precisely on the 18th or the 19th, I am
22 not certain.
23 Q. Thank you, madam. Just another detail regarding Dr. Bosanac. You
24 said that she was brought back in the evening and that she was kept inside
25 a room that was guarded. Mrs. Bosanac did not say that she was brought
1 during the evening and that she was kept in a room in the hospital. Are
2 you quite certain as to what you mentioned before? Did you see that or
4 A. When I came out, when -- behind the door where the wounded were,
5 there is an office, and Dr. Bosanac went into the office and in front of
6 the door there were two regular JNA soldiers. Whether she was kept there
7 or whether they were there for her safety, I don't know. But that's what
8 I saw.
9 Q. Thank you. I have another question concerning the 20th. When you
10 mentioned that women and children were told to go to the buses at Ivo Lola
11 Ribar Street, apart from the women and children, were there any men in the
12 group? Can you remember that?
13 A. How should I put it? It wasn't forming a group but, rather, we
14 were told that civilians, women and children go to the left, and the
15 wounded to the right to the buses. To speak frankly, there were very few
16 men in the convoy. Particularly on the bus where I was with my family,
17 there were only two men there. I believe one of them was a Red Cross
18 driver and he had his ID. He was one of the medical staff. So he was on
19 board, the only male, plus the driver.
20 Q. Thank you. Yesterday you mentioned the story concerning the
21 necklace made up of children's fingers. If you can remember, how did you
22 come to learn of that story? Where did you hear of that, that the
23 pregnant woman, Mrs. Markobasic, allegedly possessed such a photograph and
24 that she took that photograph with the necklace? When did you hear of
1 A. I heard that when she was put against a fence, and they were
2 telling her, "You Ustasha whore, where is the necklace made of children's
3 fingers." That's what I heard in front of the hospital. And not before.
4 Q. What about later? Did you hear anything later about that and
5 whether there was any link between her husband and the story itself, that
6 is the children's fingers, when did you hear about that?
7 A. I did hear that people were saying that her husband was this and
8 that sort of person. And people discussed this also in the hotel where we
9 were in exile. People were simply passing on rumours. I did hear such
10 stories, but personally I know nothing about that.
11 Q. Thank you. Mrs. Dosen, thank you for your answers.
12 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this concludes my
13 cross-examination. I have no further questions. Thank you.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you as well.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Vasic.
16 Would you like the 20 minutes now, Mr. Borovic?
17 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] If it's truly 20 minutes, then yes.
18 But I believe there is even less, hence, I would like to have a break,
19 although I will have just a few questions. If I still have 20 minutes --
20 JUDGE PARKER: You misunderstood me. I meant the 20 minute break
21 now. Would you like to have that?
22 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Yes,
24 JUDGE PARKER: Mrs. Dosen, we will have a break now for 20 minutes
25 and then Mr. Borovic will have some questions for you.
1 We will resume at five minutes to 4.00.
2 --- Recess taken at 3.37 p.m.
3 --- On resuming at 4.00 p.m.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Borovic.
5 MR. BOROVIC: Thank you.
6 Cross-examination by Mr. Borovic:
7 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mrs. Dosen. I am the defence
8 counsel for Miroslav Radic.
9 A. Good afternoon.
10 Q. You said today that the Serbs didn't like what was going on and
11 therefore they started leaving, and when you were asked why exactly in
12 more detail, you said you didn't know. Is that right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Thank you. In the statement you gave to the OTP, and of course
15 you did not argue with the authenticity of that statement, you said that
16 tension started to mount after the -- after Croatia was declared
17 independent. Is that right?
18 A. It wasn't a declaration of independence as yet, but it was between
19 the police and the MUP and the Croatian coat of arms and some officers
20 refused to wear it on their uniforms. And that's, in my view, where these
21 tensions first started. That's what I heard from my talks and rumours and
22 conversations I had with my neighbours, because I tended to see more women
23 rather than men. But there were stories going around about how these
24 people simply could not accept replacing the red star by the Croatian coat
25 of arms. That's at least what I heard.
1 Q. Thank you. Now on the second page of your statement that you made
2 in Croatian, it says that tension started to mount in Vukovar after
3 Croatia declared independence, and then afterwards you said that Serb
4 police officers refused to wear the coat of arms and to accept it and
5 embrace it as their flag. Is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you. Do you know from your history lessons that in 1941 the
8 Independent State of Croatia, which was led by the Ustasha was set up?
9 A. I did hear about it at school.
10 Q. Thank you. And do you know that their flag also bore the Croatian
11 coat of arms?
12 A. Yes, I do remember that from school.
13 Q. Do you think that might have been the reason why Serb police
14 officers might have refused to wear the Croatian coat of arms? Could that
15 have been one of the reasons, their memories of that Independent State of
16 Croatia of old? Yes or no.
17 A. I don't know. Perhaps, yes, they didn't accept that.
18 Q. Thank you. Are you familiar with the fact that after World
19 War II, actually many years later, there was a trial of Andrija Artukovic
20 in Zagreb? And, first of all, do you know who know Andrija Artukovic was?
21 A. What I know is what I saw on TV. And I was taught at school that
22 he was one of the Ustasha leaders. As far as I can recollect. But I
23 myself was never in favour of either the Ustasha or the Chetniks, so ...
24 Q. I wasn't casting doubt on that. But when you said that you
25 learned at school about him being a leader of the Ustashas, does it mean
1 that he was one of the leaders of that independent fascist Ustasha state
2 of Croatia?
3 A. Presumably.
4 Q. Thank you. Was he put on trial for war crimes in Zagreb and the
5 victims were Serbs? What I have in mind is Jasenovac in the first place.
6 Are you familiar with that?
7 A. I saw it on TV.
8 Q. Thank you. You said in your statement to the OTP, and you
9 commented on that both yesterday and today, about you having heard that
10 the HDZ purchased 700 Kalashnikovs and guns. Is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Thank you. When did you hear about that?
13 A. At some point in August. I think it was in August.
14 Q. Thank you. And you said that your husband bought a Kalashnikov
15 and a gun in order to keep his family safe. Is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Thank you. Did you have joint -- joint finances with your
18 husband? Did you know what the other spouse was spending money on?
19 A. You know, I'm one of those people who are not good with money, and
20 for the most part it was my husband's domain. All I cared about was to
21 have everything I needed around the house.
22 Q. Thank you. But do you know how much he paid for that Kalashnikov
23 and his gun, the ones that you had for your own household needs?
24 A. With the best will in the world, I have no idea.
25 Q. Thank you. Do you know whether he provided any financial support
1 for the purchase of those 700 Kalashnikovs? Do you know anything about
3 A. I do not.
4 Q. Have you ever heard anything about that?
5 A. I did hear about Martin being a donor for the HDZ party. But as
6 to whether it had anything to do with the purchases of arms or just with
7 party activities, I wouldn't know. But he was a donor for the party, yes.
8 Q. Thank you. And did HDZ, as a political party, have a military
9 wing in the course of the war, and did that military wing carry the name
11 A. Yes, the ZNG existed in Vukovar.
12 Q. Thank you. Where did your husband keep his Kalashnikov in the
13 course of the war? Did you see that?
14 A. When he came back from his guard duty, he only had the gun, and I
15 suppose the Kalashnikov was kept where he was on duty. But when he was
16 on -- when he was wounded --
17 Q. Thank you. And where was he on duty, where was he on guard duty,
18 that's my question?
19 A. At Nama.
20 Q. Thank you. Was that where he was deployed for his military duty?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Thank you. And you said today that he bought the Kalashnikov and
23 the gun for keeping his family safe, so what happened to the family? I
24 mean, we mentioned the weapons that he had on his guard duty, but what
25 about the family weapons?
1 A. When he was shot he came to Olajnica, and that's when he brought
2 the Kalashnikov home as well.
3 Q. Thank you. And when he was taken to hospital, did he take the
4 Kalashnikov with him or did he leave it to you?
5 A. The Kalashnikov and the gun stayed in the flat and went up in
6 flames with the rest of the stuff in the flat, and Tanja and myself didn't
7 take it out.
8 THE INTERPRETER: And could the counsel please wait for the
9 witness to finish the statement. Thank you.
10 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. You said that your husband was on guard duty. Was he on guard
12 duty or not?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. At what period in time? Did you hear my question?
15 A. Yes, I did.
16 Q. At what period -- at what point in time was he on guard duty in
17 your building?
18 A. From when he was first shot, by the end of October. When he was
19 shot in the arms and when he was hospitalised then came home and he had
20 this splint and then he came to Olajnica, and that's where he was on guard
21 duty, as protection for the women and children who were in the building
22 because there were only a couple of men there.
23 Q. Thank you. And were other people in the same building on guard
24 duty or was he on his own 24 hours a day?
25 A. Other people were on guard duty as well.
1 Q. Did they carry weapons as well?
2 A. They did, but I didn't see any of that. Presumably they had
4 Q. Do you have the names of any of the people in your building who
5 were on guard duty in the same way?
6 A. No names. I know about two people who were with Martin. To tell
7 you the truth, I don't really remember what their names was. Martin used
8 to call them George and Bush, but we were there only for three months, so
9 I really don't know. I didn't know these people by their names.
10 Q. Do you know how old they were?
11 A. They were about 50 years old.
12 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us now at what point in time your
13 husband used to work at the Crisis Staff? This is something that you
14 already mentioned in your statement to the OTP.
15 A. When he wouldn't come home at night. It was probably as early as
16 August, up until the time when he was shot. During the day he would come
17 home to see Tanja and myself, up until the point when the shell landed on
18 our house, and then we went to Olajnica. We went to Olajnica, and he
19 would visit us during the day.
20 Q. Thank you. Do you know anything about your husband's membership
21 in the Crisis Staff? What was his position there and was he a prominent
23 A. What do you mean? Crisis Staff or where he was on guard duty?
24 Q. Was he a member of the Crisis Staff?
25 THE INTERPRETER: And could the counsel please not interrupt the
1 witness because we can't listen to both at the same time.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Was he a member of the Crisis Staff,
3 I don't know. But he did used to go there.
4 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. And did you know whether Dr. Vesna Bosanac was a member of the
6 Crisis Staff in Vukovar -- or, rather, did your husband ever tell you that
7 he used to meet her there?
8 A. Martin never told me about having been in touch with Vesna Bosanac
9 or that she was at the Crisis Staff when he used to go there. I really
10 can't confirm that at all.
11 Q. Thank you. You mentioned that high-rise buildings such as yours
12 also existed in the vicinity and behind the hospital. That's what you
13 said in answer to my colleague's, Mr. Vasic's question; is that right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Thank you. How far are those high-rise buildings from the
16 hospital, the ones that are closest to the hospital, in fact, in your
18 A. In my opinion, the ones that are behind the hospital might be at a
19 distance of about 100 or even 50 metres. You simply cross the street and
20 that's where the first building is.
21 Q. Thank you. And what about the ones next to the main entrance to
22 the hospital? How far are they?
23 A. The ones in front of the hospital are slightly further away
24 because they're next to the bridge, across the Danube. It's an entire
25 neighbourhood, which is on the bank of the river. So perhaps 300 metres
1 away, according to my estimate.
2 Q. Thank you. And now to back to the ones behind the hospital. Are
3 you aware of the fact that shots were fired from there aimed at the JNA or
5 A. No. I don't know. It was at the hospital, and I was further
7 Q. Thank you. When you were asked whether you knew about the ZNG
8 formations in Vukovar, you said yes. But did you ever hear about the HOS
9 military formations or the Croatian defence powers or whatever?
10 A. Were there any such formations in Vukovar itself, I don't know,
11 but I met a couple of young boys at the hospital who said that they
12 belonged to the HOS, and now I don't know.
13 Q. Thank you. Did you know that there were the so-called Domobrans
14 as well during the war?
15 A. I really don't know. I haven't heard of that.
16 Q. Thank you. And did you hear about what military formations were
17 called Ustasha? Did you hear anything about that? Was it the ZNGs?
18 A. I don't know. I myself did not see anyone bearing the Ustasha
19 insignia, and that's why it is really not clear to me why they should be
20 declared as Ustasha extremists, amongst them my husband as well, and they
21 were not really.
22 Q. Okay. Fine, if you don't know.
23 We talked of Martin Jakubovski and you said that he was a
24 registered member of the ZNG. Is that right?
25 A. He told me himself that he had been to Opatovac and that he signed
1 some papers there and that he registered. And he came back from the army
2 and that's what he said to me himself.
3 Q. Thank you. Did you see Martin Jakubovski on the 17th of November
4 when you came to the hospital?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Thank you. What was he wearing when you found him at the
7 hospital? Was he wearing a military uniform, since he was a member of the
8 ZNG or what?
9 A. He had had surgery because he was hit in the arm and he almost
10 lost his hand, and Dr. Aleksijevic managed to save it. And he had a pair
11 of pyjamas and the hospital gown.
12 Q. Thank you. And when he was brought in, as you mentioned to the
13 OTP, perhaps I should read it out from your statement. It's page 5, last
14 paragraph. And you said that Martin Jakubovski was brought in. What was
15 he wearing at that particular moment?
16 A. When he was brought to the hospital?
17 Q. No, on the bus.
18 A. When he was brought to the bus, I think he was wearing the same
19 clothes, but he also had a jacket and he had some kind of pink pullover.
20 Q. Thank you. Did you say to the OTP that he was a well-known
21 marksman, and did you say that his position was on the roof of the high
22 school? That's my first question. Did you say that to the OTP?
23 A. Yes. Yes, he told me that he was there.
24 Q. Did you also say to them that from that position on the roof of
25 the high school he was shooting at the JNA planes from that roof? Can you
1 confirm that you said that to the OTP?
2 A. Yes, that's -- it was from the roof of the grammar school, in
4 Q. Thank you. Is the grammar school a high school?
5 A. Yes. But the grammar school was situated a bit out of town,
6 further away from the centre of town. That's what I meant to say.
7 Q. Thank you. And what Martin Jakubovski tell you about the
8 activities from the roof of the grammar school and about the shooting of
9 the JNA planes? When was it, did he manage to shoot any planes down, or
10 do you remember anything about that?
11 A. I asked him about where he was in the course of all those events
12 and all those times, the shooting and bombing, et cetera, because his
13 parents were not there, they were at Vinkovci, and he was staying with his
14 grandmother in Vukovar, and so I was a bit worried about him. And then he
15 said, "Aunt, I am at the grammar school, I am on the roof, and we are
16 trying to defend ourselves from the planes." Those were his words.
17 As to whether he shot anything, how he shot anything down, I have
18 no idea, because I wasn't there. Whether any of the planes came down, I
19 can't tell you because he never said anything about that. I simply asked
20 him where he was, just so I knew whether he was alive or not. And --
21 Q. Thank you. But you confirmed that a part of your statement was
22 the fact that he was a famous marksman. What does it mean?
23 A. Well, his had nickname was Spegelj, and his friends used to tell
24 me that he was a rather good marksman. But to what extent he was good or
25 bad, I have no idea because I was never there.
1 Q. Thank you. Obviously you are not a witness who should provide us
2 detailed information about these circumstances, but since you did mention
3 that he was operating a canon shooting the planes, do you know what kind
4 of canon it was since your husband and his brother seemed to have been in
5 the army. Have you ever talked about it? Was it an anti-aircraft gun or
6 some other kind of gun or canon or do you not know?
7 A. I have no idea, believe me.
8 Q. I do believe you. You mentioned the month of May 1991 and the
9 fact that police officers were killed in Borovo Naselje. Is that correct?
10 A. In Borovo Selo.
11 Q. Did you hear that on that occasion quite a few Serbs were injured
12 and that with heavy injuries they were taken to the Vukovar Hospital.
13 Those were injuries caused by fragmentation bullets, right?
14 A. I can only tell you what I heard and about the information we saw
15 on TV.
16 Q. Just this one question in relation to Serbs: Have you ever heard
17 that, did you hear that --
18 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe I have a
19 problem with the recording. I don't know if this is all right in the
20 transcript. In order to avoid any problems later, I would like to make
21 sure that everything is getting into the transcript. At least I don't
22 seem to be able to hear well.
23 JUDGE PARKER: There had been no indication that what is being
24 said is not being heard and will therefore appear in the transcript.
25 There is, however, an ongoing problem. I suspect that you are listening
1 to the B/C/S, and when the speaker stops you then move to your question,
2 whereas the translation in other languages is continuing, and in
3 particular in English, and so that you are often putting the next question
4 while the translation of the last answer is continuing. And I think that
5 is causing difficulties for those who are trying to hear and translate
6 what you are saying.
7 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. You put it very
8 elegantly, but I'm basically the problem, thank you.
9 Q. My next question now. Today we heard about the war duties of your
10 husband today and about how he was placed at the Nama department store.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did you report him missing with the ministry for missing persons,
13 and did you provide any data to the ministry?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Were you the only witness providing data about missing persons?
16 A. No. There were more people there.
17 Q. I mean in conjunction with your husband. Were you the only one or
18 were there more witnesses?
19 A. I was providing data for my husband, but his sister did the same,
20 because she didn't know what happened to him, so she reported him missing
21 as well. Whoever had a member of the family missing, they all tried to
22 provide as much data as possible in order to be able to find something
23 out. So it is indeed possible that other people had gone and provided
24 data and reported him missing.
25 Q. Thank you. In what year was your husband awarded his military
1 grade as warrant officer by the defence ministry?
2 A. I have that document at home and I really can't remember. If you
3 have the document in front of you, it might be easier, because I don't
4 want to make a mistake. I do have the paper at home, but I can't remember
6 Q. Thank you. Was it before you reported him missing or afterwards?
7 A. Can you repeat the question?
8 Q. Did he get that before you reported him missing or afterwards?
9 A. Later.
10 Q. Thank you. Was he a member of the so-called Vukovar Brigade?
11 A. As to whether he was a member of that brigade or not, on the
12 papers he got from his commander it says that he was carrying out guard
13 duties at the Nama department store. That's what it says on the document.
14 Q. Thank you. When you were describing his fall from the balcony,
15 you said he was taken to the hospital on a stretcher and you also said
16 that there used to be stretchers in buildings at the time. That's what
17 you said yesterday, right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Thank you. As of when were those stretchers there, who brought
20 them to the buildings and why were they there? First of all, I would like
21 to know as of what point in time were there stretchers in your building.
22 A. When exactly they were brought in, I do not know. But when I came
23 to the building the stretchers were already there, because the nuclear
24 shelter that existed at Olajnica could not take all the inhabitants of
25 Olajnica and so they needed more space. But what they did then, they left
1 a couple of stretchers in every building, in case of need, in case
2 somebody was wounded or if there was shelling, et cetera.
3 Q. Thank you. Were they brought by the ZNG soldiers, that is the
4 National Guards Corps?
5 A. There was some degree of organisation inside the shelter itself,
6 but I can't tell you who managed that. I don't know.
7 Q. Thank you. Since you saw Martin Jakubovski, aka Spegelj, in the
8 hospital, my question is the following: Did Binazija Kolesar do the same
9 thing to him as she did with your husband? Did she provide him with the
10 medical report so that he could use it after the evacuation?
11 A. Yes, she did that with each of the wounded and the wounded were
12 supposed to have it with them.
13 Q. I asked you specifically about Martin Jakubovski.
14 A. I don't know, because Martin was in the corridor. You had to go
15 through the room to reach him, and I didn't see whether he was holding the
16 documents in his hands.
17 Q. Thank you. What about Ivan and Tadija Dosen? Were they also
18 given the medical records?
19 A. Ivan was not wounded; he had no documentation. He came with us
20 from Olajnica, and he wasn't in the hospital as one of the wounded.
21 Q. What about Tadija?
22 A. He was wounded, I couldn't see him clearly, because he was already
23 on the bus. He was in the hospital overcoat, but I couldn't see whether
24 he had anything in his arms. He could walk by himself, and he left the
25 room before Martin did.
1 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us the name of a person, any other person
2 who had their medical record in their hands, apart from yourself?
3 A. I don't know about the civilians. I took the plastic bag given to
4 me, but each of the wounded had the same on them, and they probably took
5 the papers with them. As to why those documents are now missing, I don't
6 know, but each of the wounded was given their set.
7 Q. It seems only logical to ask you the following: Irrespective of
8 the fact that your husband was on a stretcher, why wasn't the
9 documentation given to him and why didn't he have that when he was being
10 carried to the bus, rather the papers remained in your hands and all the
11 other wounded had their papers with them?
12 A. I can't explain. I know I picked those papers up from his bed
13 before he was put on a stretcher as he needed to be moved from the bed on
14 to the stretcher, and the papers were on the bed. That's why I picked up
15 this plastic bag.
16 Q. Thank you. You stated that you saw three JNA soldiers in the
17 hospital. My question is: How did you recognise them? How did you know
18 they belonged to the JNA and yet you had spent only one day in the
19 hospital prior to that?
20 A. The three soldiers in the Vukovar Hospital, they were separated
21 from the rest by a glass, by a window, and Martin told me that they
22 brought in three wounded JNA soldiers.
23 Q. Thank you. Did he tell you when they were brought in?
24 A. I don't know the exact date. I believe they had been in the
25 hospital when Martin came in, so they must have been wounded prior to his
1 arrival. Martin said they were fine guys, and they talked, they
3 Q. You said they were separated by a glass wall. Isn't that correct?
4 A. Yes, it is.
5 Q. How far from your husband?
6 A. I can't tell you for certain. The entire room was filled with
7 beds. Perhaps they were five beds away, if you can picture that in your
8 mind, and then the glass wall.
9 Q. Thank you. Of course, one couldn't hear them talking behind the
10 glass wall?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Thank you. Could you then explain for the Chamber what you said
13 yesterday when you said that those soldiers refused to go with the JNA
14 officers who wanted to take them away, to save them, so to speak, or is it
15 true that you did not hear that at all?
16 A. I heard that because they said that in the corridor as they were
17 leaving. They left the room that was behind the glass wall, and they had
18 to pass by the other beds. And then they were discussing this with the
19 officer who came to pick them up. They asked him, and I quote, "Why
20 should we now go? We were not in any danger here. We were treated
21 equally, as the rest." That was the conversation I overheard as they
22 passed me by.
23 Q. Thank you. Prior to your testimony, that is, your statement with
24 the OTP, were you prepared or coached by any institution in Zagreb to give
25 such a statement?
1 A. I don't remember any coaching. If you are to believe me, a lot of
2 years passed in the meantime, and there were numerous conversations,
3 people from various centres and institutions came to talk, and I don't
4 want to confuse things.
5 Q. Thank you. Before you decided, or opted for such testimony, were
6 you coached in any way in Zagreb for this particular testimony? Or to
7 keep it short? Is there such a thing as a centre for the preparation of
8 witnesses to testify in The Hague provided those witnesses are of Croatian
10 A. Preparations, no. I talked about my statement. I don't remember
11 what year you said it was that I gave the statement; I believe 1995. They
12 asked me whether it was correct, that I should reread the statement and
13 just to check whether I still remember what I said in the statement and
14 whether everything was recorded in a proper way. Yes, I did go through
16 Q. Who helped you remind yourself of the statement?
17 A. I believe one of the representatives of The Hague Tribunal. I
18 don't know the exact function or the title of the person, but that person
19 was probably from the ICTY.
20 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Dosen. This concludes my cross-examination.
21 Thank you again.
22 A. Thank you.
23 JUDGE PARKER: And thank you, Mr. Borovic.
24 Mr. Lukic.
25 Mr. Lukic will now have some questions for you, Mrs. Dosen.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.
2 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:
3 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours, good afternoon to
4 all those present, good afternoon to Mrs. Dosen. My name is Novak Lukic
5 from Belgrade, and I'm counsel for Mr. Sljivancanin. I wanted to ask you
6 some questions. I would like to apologise beforehand to the Chamber and
7 to yourself should some of my questions overlap with the questions put by
8 my colleagues. I did my best to short-list the questions I had after the
9 cross-examination of my colleagues. As it often happens, since we are
10 always to go last, some of the questions are usually put by other
11 colleagues before. That is why I will try to ask you about the things you
12 haven't answered yet. Since I am often warned for not speaking too fast,
13 I will just remind you to make a short pause between my question and your
14 answer so that we would have a clear transcript.
15 I wanted to link up with the topic that Mr. Borovic concluded
16 with. I wanted to ask you whether I have precise information concerning
17 the statements that were at our disposal in which you provided some
18 information about the facts that you are testifying, and you can confirm
19 this perhaps for me. According to the information we have, in 1995 you
20 gave a comprehensive statement to the OTP, and after that there was
21 another short statement in which you were shown sets of photographs in
22 order to recognise some people. Isn't that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. We also received information that you gave a statement to the
25 Ministry of Health of Croatia dated the 14th of April, 1993 whereby you
1 also described the facts you testified about here. Do you remember that?
2 A. Yes. That is why I said to your colleague, so as to avoid any
3 misunderstanding, that I gave several statements, but I don't remember
4 precisely to whom and where and when.
5 Q. Thank you. You testified before this very Tribunal back in 1998
6 in Dokmanovic case; that was in February 1998. Isn't that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Right after you, your daughter came to testify on that day. Is
9 that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What we also know, and you were asked about that by Mr. Borovic,
12 you provided some data as a part of the questionnaire put together by the
13 Republic of Croatia and their centre for the missing persons, and you gave
14 some information concerning the people who went missing from Vukovar,
15 particularly in relation with your missing husband, Mr. Martin Dosen.
16 Isn't that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. We were also told by the OTP, and you confirmed this a while ago,
19 that you spoke with the OTP representatives somewhat recently, I believe
20 not more than a month ago, when you were shown your previous statement.
21 You were reminded of what you said then and then you introduced certain
22 corrections that you deemed necessary?
23 A. Yes, that is correct.
24 Q. I believe you will also confirm that when you were given the
25 initial statement back in 1995, and I believe you can be given the
1 statement by the registry representative who is next to you should it
2 become necessary, in addition to the interpreter and the interviewer, your
3 daughter was also present. Isn't that correct?
4 A. When do you think Tanja was present? Could you repeat, please?
5 Q. I'm looking at the statement of the 22nd of August 1995, and as
6 far as we know that was your first interview with Mr. Milner from the OTP
7 and an interpreter, and the statement mentions the presence of your
8 daughter Tanja as well. That's why I'm asking you.
9 A. You mean here in The Hague?
10 Q. I believe the interview was conducted in Zagreb.
11 A. If they came to see me, it is likely that Tanja was present as
13 Q. The way I calculate it, Tanja was 18 and a half back in August
14 1995, if that is correct.
15 A. She was born on the 10th of January, 1977.
16 Q. A fortnight after that an -- OTP representatives interviewed your
17 daughter at the Intercontinental in Zagreb. Were you present during that
19 A. Don't hold me to it, but I believe so. We had only one room. At
20 a certain point I was making coffee for everyone, but I believe I was
21 present in the room as well.
22 Q. So as not to have any confusion, I read that in the very contents
23 of the statement put together by the investigator. I just wanted to
25 I will move on to another topic, because I believe we now have the
1 framework of the information we had concerning what you know about the
2 events in Vukovar. We hope that the registry representative sitting next
3 to you has all these documents there, and should we need to refer to them,
4 he may assist you in putting them before you, because I will deal in some
5 detail with your previous statements.
6 Before the war and during the conflict back in 1991, did you know
7 Dr. Njavro?
8 A. We knew him because his wife was a teacher in school. She taught
10 Q. Did you know Dr. Bosanac before the war, or during the conflict?
11 A. I used to know her because -- because she was a paediatrician,
12 that is before she became the head of hospital. As for my husband, I
13 don't know whether he knew her any better. He knew her as a paediatrician
14 as well. Tanja, on the other hand, was good friends with Dr. Bosanac's
16 Q. While we're on the topic, do you know whether any of the sons of
17 Dr. Bosanac was a member of the National Guards Corps or any of the other
18 defensive forces in Vukovar?
19 A. I really couldn't say. I didn't see them. The first time I saw
20 them was in Zagreb.
21 Q. Did you know Mr. Marin Vidic, or did your husband tell you that he
22 knew him either before or during the war when he assumed certain positions
23 in Vukovar?
24 A. Martin knew Mr. Vidic from Vukovar. They were acquaintances that
25 would greet each other on the street. Anything more than that, I can't
2 Q. I presume you used to know Mr. Vidic from seeing him in the city,
3 you knew what he looked like?
4 A. I saw him in the hospital.
5 Q. That's what we heard from you yesterday. I just wanted to verify
6 whether you knew it was actually him.
7 What about Dr. Aleksijevic? Did you know him during or before the
8 war, apart from the incidents when your husband was injured?
9 A. I didn't know him before the war. I met him during the war, and
10 we met in Zagreb. I knew his wife better because she used to work in the
11 hospital even before the war. We were not friends, but I knew her as one
12 of the medical staff, a nurse.
13 Q. In one of your statements to the OTP I read the following; perhaps
14 you can confirm. I believe you said that you were comfortably off before
15 the war, you and your family. Is that correct?
16 A. I was always a good friend to the people I knew, and for the time
17 we were comfortably off. Martin, myself, and having in mind the number of
18 children we had, we had quite a good life.
19 Q. I presume most of your income came from the restaurant, or was
20 there any other income within the family in 1990 and 1991?
21 A. The income mostly came from fishing, because Martin sold his fish
22 in the marketplace and in some other restaurants. And we used his fish,
23 of course, but our restaurant was only open during summer, when people
24 went to the river-banks, but not during winter.
25 Q. Concerning his HDZ activities that you testified about and his
1 political affiliation and activities, although you did say he was but an
2 ordinary member, was that something that he kept secret, or was he quite
3 public about it?
4 A. He never -- he was never hiding that. He was public about that.
5 Q. Another question in relation to your situation at the time and
6 concerning your reply to my colleague, Mr. Borovic. When he was awarded
7 that military rank posthumously, you said that you received that in a
8 letter from his commander. Do you know who signed the document, who
9 signed it as commander to your husband?
10 A. As far as I know, I believe his name is Krsic. He used to be the
11 managing director of the Nama department store. He was killed, however,
12 trying to break out of Vukovar. And the document, on the other hand, was
13 signed by Mr. Daniel Rehak.
14 Q. I must be honest, I know nothing of him. Do you know what his
15 title or function was? Did he have anything to do with the association of
16 the Vukovar defenders?
17 A. I couldn't tell you anything about his title. I do know he was a
18 prisoner and that he was in the camp in Serbia. I used to know him before
19 the war; we were schoolmates. As for his title, I don't know. But as it
20 seems, he was Martin's commander.
21 Q. So as not to go again through all the questions concerning your
22 husband's injuries, I wanted to ask you just this, and it still remains
23 unclear. When he was injured for the second time, and you described that,
24 you said that he was injured by a sniper, did he remain in the hospital or
25 was he treated clinically and released immediately?
1 A. He was treated immediately and released. They said there was no
2 need for him to stay in the hospital and that they are short of space and
3 that there are many people who have more serious injuries, so he was sent
5 Q. As you replied to Mr. Vasic, that was sometime in September?
6 A. No. That was at the end of October or maybe even around
8 Q. I beg your pardon for going into such detail, but I believe you
9 were not being specific enough. Perhaps this will help you recall: The
10 second time he was injured by the sniper, how much before his fall from
11 the third floor was it?
12 A. Some 10 days before.
13 Q. Thank you. When your husband was brought to the hospital on
14 the 16th, you said you were not present but that you came the next
15 evening. But did you hear either from him or any of the doctors that any
16 sort of treatment was applied in his case, medical treatment?
17 A. Martin told me that nothing could be done, because an examination
18 of the spine was needed. What he did tell me is that his arm hurt and
19 that his splint was changed. Nothing else.
20 Q. Therefore, he was wearing a new splint, and I presume you saw
21 that, compared to the previous one?
22 A. Yes. The previous one was dirty, and it also broke when he fell
23 off the balcony.
24 Q. The way I calculate it, you spent some two days next to your
25 husband in the hospital, the 18th and the 19th, provided you came in the
1 evening of the 17th and not counting the 20th when the evacuation took
2 place. Isn't that so?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Was he prescribed any treatment? Was he receiving medication at
5 the time?
6 A. No medication, apart from the painkillers.
7 Q. Did you see his temperature being taken on the 18th? Did you
8 witness that and, if so, at what time of day, if you remember?
9 A. No, I wasn't present when his temperature was taken. When the
10 nurses were supposed to take temperatures and change dressings, I was
11 supposed to leave the room because, in essence, civilians couldn't stay in
12 the room where the wounded were. I was the only one allowed, since he was
13 a broken man and was crying a lot of time; therefore they let me stay.
14 Q. Can you remember what time of day it was when they were changing
15 dressings? I know we are going into much detail, but we concern ourselves
16 with facts. If you don't know, I won't insist any further.
17 A. I wouldn't want to say something that is incorrect. Some were
18 changed in the morning, some in the evening, depending on the amount of
19 bleeding and the type of help needed.
20 Q. Were there any visible bruises anywhere on his body following the
21 fall and, if so, where? Maybe on his head?
22 A. His face was swollen, but he said that the doctor had told him
23 that it was kind of normal, because of his weight and the fall, and he
24 fell kind of standing up, and so he also had pains in his stomach. And I
25 didn't see the bruises because I didn't look at his body, in fact. I
1 didn't take the blanket off.
2 Q. Just a moment. I need to check the transcript. It was a
3 correction, rather. You said that he fell on his feet. Is that right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Yeah, that's fine. These medical files that ended up in your
6 files, and as you told us yesterday and today, this is the documentation
7 that you had on the 20th in the morning when he was going to be
8 transferred from the bed to the stretcher. Is that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Was that the time when the medical files were brought to him next
11 to his sick-bed? Do you remember that?
12 A. I think that Nurse Biba was placing medical files next to each
13 patient. She was walking through the ward and leaving the medical files
14 by the feet of the bed of every patient. That was meant to serve the
15 purpose of further treatment.
16 Q. Yes, you've already explained that. When you say Nurse Biba, you
17 mean Binazija Kolesar. Is that right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did you tell anyone that you were going to keep the medical files
20 and not to leave it next to Martin when he was placed on the stretcher?
21 Did anyone allow you to keep those medical records, any person in
23 A. No, nobody allowed me, but nobody prevented me either. It was
24 just that I thought that since we were following Martin and that I was
25 going to stay with him that I should take it. That's why I took it.
1 Q. Another question in conjunction with these medical files, we saw
2 two documents which referred to that period of time and two previous
3 certificates, first of all the temperature chart, and secondly the form
4 with the handwritten text on the other side. That's the way I see it, so
5 we're talking about two separate papers here.
6 Now, my question is this: Apart from these documents that you
7 have shown to the Court, was there any other document that you did not
8 submit to the Court, and that you still have in your possession? Did you
9 understand my question?
10 A. Yes, I did. We're talking about one document, a single document.
11 It's just that it got torn, so when it was photocopied it ended up as two,
12 but it was like a folded sheet of paper, a single document. We're not
13 talking about two. It's just that it was torn, that's all.
14 Q. So there are no other original documents dated the 20th of
15 November coming from the hospital in your possession. Is that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Vasic.
19 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. With regard
20 to the transcript, page 54, word [as interpreted] 16, my learned friend
21 asked when the medical documents were left on the beds of the patients,
22 and whether it was on the 20th in the morning. I think that the date does
23 not appear in the witness's answer.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. You said it was on the 20th in the morning. Can we conclude on
3 A. Yes, before the evacuation.
4 Q. Can you explain a little bit where your husband was? You said
5 next to the door, but I don't know the door to where. Where was his place
6 at the hospital, was it the exit, and if that indeed was the exit from the
7 hospital, which one?
8 A. Yes, it was next to the exit. That was where you could -- it was
9 also the entrance, in fact. There is no other door.
10 Q. Can you tell us where the room was? Can you explain that?
11 Because we've explained the structure of the ground floor of the hospital
12 to some extent, so can you tell us where that room was located?
13 A. It was on the ground floor. There's nothing else. It's the
14 ground floor, not even an upper floor, just the ground floor. And that's
15 where the surgeries used to be before, where -- a day clinic was there. I
16 used to come and see my gynaecologist there as a young mother, and
17 afterwards it was turned into a single room where the wounded were lying
18 in their beds. But basically those were waiting-rooms before. And that's
19 where I was sitting next to him, and that's where the patients were
21 Q. Can you enter the area from the main entrance to the hospital?
22 A. Not the main entrance, but behind. Not quite behind, but you have
23 to go around to some extent. It's a bit to the side of the main entrance.
24 Q. But you said that you visited Tadija Dosen on that first evening,
25 so where was he in relation to where Martin was? Where was his bed?
1 A. Tadija was -- hmm, can I explain that. It was like a corridor and
2 there was the -- the piping was there, in fact, and extra beds were placed
3 there. It was a corridor of sorts. And that's where he was. It is after
4 the room where Martin was. You go through that room, and then you get to
5 the corridor and other patients were there and that's where Tadija was.
6 Q. And what about Martin Jakubovski? Was he anywhere near Martin
7 Dosen? I mean was he in the same room, the same area that you have just
9 A. Martin was closer to Tadija than to Martin.
10 Q. I'm asking you about this because when you testified in the
11 Dokmanovic case you said that when you went with Martin and when soldiers
12 started taking him out you said that Martin Jakubovski was already out.
13 Do you remember that? Where did you get that information that those
14 wounded who could walk, who could move, had already been out before your
15 husband was taken out?
16 A. That's not information, that's what happened. They were called,
17 their names were called, and so they came out. And of course the ones who
18 could walk were called first. And then it took time for the nurses to
19 come to place Martin on the stretcher, et cetera. And those injured who
20 could walk, they had already gone out.
21 Q. Did the other people who were at the hospital start leaving at
22 that stage? Did you see that as well, the people whose names had not been
24 A. Yes, they were leaving as well, but first they needed to come
25 downstairs from the first floor to that room, because they had to use the
1 same door. But the civilians were on the first floor of the hospital and
2 not where the wounded were. So they had to come down one floor. And of
3 course they were coming out as well.
4 Q. Just a moment, I must check something out. Perhaps it would be
5 best if the secretariat representative could hand you the statement which
6 is on three typed pages.
7 I would like you to read out on page 1, the last paragraph, and
8 you said: "The history of illness of my husband is something I took with
10 Can you read the last sentence, please? It starts with: "All
11 those in plaster and wearing white coats."
12 Do you have the statement in front of you?
13 A. Just a moment.
14 Q. This is a document, just so as to help my colleagues from the
15 Prosecution, it's a document which is, according to -- what's revealed to
16 us according to Rule 68, and it is document 2D 090001. But there is no
17 need to place it on the ELMO if the witness is simply going to read out a
18 simple sentence.
19 "All those who were in plaster and wearing white coats." It's the
20 last sentence, the very last sentence on page 1.
21 A. Right, on page 1. "All those in plaster..." I can't see it on
22 page 1. Just a moment.
23 Q. May I just ask you, Mrs. Dosen, do you have the document bearing
24 the mark -- it's a typed document, a three-page typed document?
25 A. Yes, now I seem to have received it.
1 Q. The last paragraph in the middle. "All of those in plaster..."
2 A. And those who had put white coats on or had fake plaster-casts.
3 Is that what you mean?
4 Q. Can you continue, and then the history of the -- two paragraphs
6 A. "Then I saw some nurses..." Is that the one?
7 Q. Just hang on a moment. Mrs. Dosen, the last paragraph starts with
8 the date, the 19th of November, 1991.
9 A. "At around 8.00 in the morning, the head nurse Biba..."
10 Q. Can you just read it very slowly, please.
11 A. You mean the entire paragraph?
12 Q. Yes, but very slowly, please.
13 A. "On the 19th of November, 1991, in the morning, at around 8.00,
14 head nurse Biba had to draw up a list of all patients and indicate their
15 case histories, as if for evacuation. My husband's case history is
16 something I took with me. All those with plaster and wearing white coats
17 had to be examined by a military doctor and the ambulance drivers had to
18 have their papers, their identity papers."
19 Q. It doesn't really matter what comes next. What is of importance
20 here is, since there is no signature on this statement but I suppose that
21 you stand by it, is this: Have you heard or seen on that morning that any
22 military doctors had come in there and carried out any examinations? Do
23 you have any recollection of that?
24 A. I haven't seen any military doctors, and they didn't enter the
25 room where I was, where the wounded patients were. But they had to go
1 out, the ones who supposedly had fake casts. They were called out and
2 invited to exit through the door. But I myself did not see any military
3 doctors. It was just said that they had to be examined in order to see
4 what degree of injury there was underneath the plaster-casts.
5 Q. Did you hear about any one of them having been examined by a
6 military doctor when you left the premises or when you were standing
7 around with other women?
8 A. I didn't hear anything, because I didn't linger. I left in the
9 direction of the bus, together with the wounded.
10 Q. Do you know Dr. Ivankovic or Dr. Stanimirovic by any chance? I
11 mean, do you know them by sight, do you know what they look like?
12 A. Yes. Because Dr. Stanimirovic was my GP when I used to work at
13 the factory and he's a psychiatrist now.
14 Q. Did you come across them in the hospital corridors on that
16 A. Dr. Ivankovic, yes, but not Dr. Stanimirovic.
17 Q. On the basis of the statement that you were reading out from
18 earlier, and you could read the next sentence as well. I found it very
19 difficult to read it, truth be told. But you mentioned that head nurse
20 Biba came along with a new list then, and do you remember, do you
21 remember whether Madam Biba was present with those two soldiers when they
22 were reading through, or did she come later when your husband's name was
23 read out?
24 A. Sister Biba, Nurse Biba was already in the room and she was
25 distributing medical records to other patients when the list was already
1 being read. I'm not saying -- well, I found it weird that they were all
2 on this list, or maybe it was according to the order of admittance to
3 hospital, but they were all on the list, so their names were read out
4 first. So there were -- there was a roll-call of sorts, and the others
5 came out before my husband, because my husband had to be carried out.
6 Q. Did you get in touch with anyone? Did you ask anyone whether you
7 could accompany your husband and, if so, when?
8 A. I didn't talk to anyone that morning, because Martin was really
9 anxious for me to stay with him, and he said, "As soon as I go, you come
10 with me." And since I was allowed to remain close to him, even before the
11 evacuation, I was of the view that it would be only normal and proper for
12 me to continue with this without asking any further permissions.
13 Q. Because yesterday on page 43 of the transcript you mentioned that
14 you were allowed to go with Martin. You meant that it was granted by the
15 doctors who knew that he needed to be accompanied by someone because they
16 knew about what state he was in. Is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Another topic now. And maybe we could have a break then.
19 My understanding was that you and your daughter Tanja walked by
20 Martin's side throughout that time as he was being carried out of the
21 hospital and into the courtyard. Is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And so you walked past those people who were being searched in
24 front of the entrance to casualty. Is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Let me first ask you this: Were you yourself searched?
2 A. I myself, no. I went by as the other people were being searched.
3 Q. You said that they were looking for sharp objects, weapons, and
4 you even mentioned gold. Did you see that anyone was looking for anything
5 such as gold or valuables or money or anything of the sort? Did you see
6 it yourself?
7 A. I didn't see any gold or money being taken from anyone, but as I
8 walked past there was a kind of fence, and I could see that people were
9 leaving their nail scissors or nail files stuff like that there. But I
10 can't confirm about the money or gold or anything like that.
11 Q. Thank you. As you were leaving, did you go by the plaster room
12 and did you notice anything amiss there? Do you know where the plaster
13 room was, first of all?
14 A. Well, it was as you walked from Martin's bed, you had to walk past
15 five or six other beds before you reached the plaster room. And as to
16 whether I noticed anything amiss or anything weird, I can't say so, no.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we have a break now so that I
18 can get my questions organised for the next topic?
19 JUDGE PARKER: We will have a break now, and we will resume at
20 10 minutes to 6.00.
21 --- Recess taken at 5.28 p.m.
22 --- On resuming at 5.55 p.m.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 Q. Mrs. Dosen, we may continue and try to wrap things up. Without
1 repeating the entire consequence of events, could you tell me how long did
2 it take for your husband to be put on the stretcher and until the moment
3 he was in front of the bus? Your movement through the corridor and the
4 courtyard as well as the search, that is, how long did that take?
5 A. 10 to 15 minutes, not more.
6 Q. Yesterday you described the third bus specifically. Were you able
7 to notice at the moment of your arrival whether the other buses were
8 already full of people?
9 A. Yes, mostly. There were some wounded still coming in, but all the
10 other buses were more or less full.
11 Q. During the period you spent in front of the bus and upon your
12 return to the courtyard, were you able to see whether any people were
13 taken off some of the buses and left standing on the side?
14 A. I only remember a young man who was taken off a bus by a friend,
15 and he returned him to the hospital. This friend was of Serb nationality,
16 and the young man was a Croat, and he returned him to the hospital and
17 later I saw that young man in Zagreb. It means that his friend managed to
18 save him, that is.
19 Q. In terms of time, how long were you in front of the bus before you
20 returned to the courtyard, including your conversation with the soldier
21 with Drko and Mr. Sljivancanin?
22 A. I believe half an hour or three quarters of an hour, more or less.
23 I don't think it was any longer than that. Although to me it seemed like
24 eternity. It was up to one hour at the most. So anything in between half
25 an hour and a full hour.
1 Q. Yesterday you marked some spots on the photographs in order to
2 corroborate some facts. I wanted to ask you the following: The dialogue
3 you had with the soldier who took the money from Mrs. Markobasic and gave
4 it to you, did it all take place where Martin was on his stretcher or was
5 it somewhere else? And if so, how far away?
6 A. It was right next to where Martin was. He came off the bus, and
7 then he put the money in my hand. He took Ruzica on the bus and he left
8 her there. This was a young man, a reservist. He was a decent guy.
9 That's why I dared ask him the questions I did.
10 Q. Tanja was next to you and Martin throughout this time. Isn't that
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Your conversation with Drko, was that on the same spot or did you
14 move? Did he come to you, to the place where Martin was?
15 A. I spoke with Drko as Martin was being returned to the hospital. I
16 wanted him to return him to the hospital and then perhaps I was hoping
17 that they won't leave him there on the concrete, but that we find some
18 other accommodation for him. So it was at the moment when Martin was
19 still -- was being carried away from the bus.
20 Q. If I may have a moment, please.
21 So you spoke with him after you had spoken with Mr. Sljivancanin.
22 Isn't that correct?
23 A. Yes. That was when I was going back to -- towards Martin, when
24 the soldiers came to pick him up, and to -- I wanted to go back and take
25 the back. Then Drko came by and I asked him, "Drko, is there anything you
1 can do?" It was again close to the bus, but not at the very spot where
2 Martin's stretcher was.
3 Q. I wanted to quote a part of your testimony in Dokmanovic case,
4 page 55, date the 6th of February, 1998, and I wanted you to comment,
5 please. [In English] "Our locals, the people of Vukovar could not help
6 us, so I told my husband, I'm going to go to the Major and to ask him what
7 I am -- what I and my daughter were doing there."
8 Since you mentioned your conversation with Drko, it follows from
9 what I read that you decided to have this conversation with
10 Mr. Sljivancanin only after that. So which way is it? The way you put it
11 back then, or today?
12 A. There's something wrong there, because I spoke with Drko only
13 after the conversation I had had with Mr. Sljivancanin. And when I was
14 going back, he appeared.
15 Q. Therefore you want to remain with the version you expressed today?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. In your statement to the OTP, and you have it before you dated
18 1995, page 6, you also said, that is page 6, the second paragraph from the
19 bottom: "I told Drko ..." Did you find that part?
20 A. Page 6?
21 Q. The one before last, that's the paragraph.
22 A. No, this is not it.
23 Q. Do you see the last passage is: "When I realised I would get no
24 help there, I went to see Sljivancanin."
25 Do you see that? Perhaps it is best if I read in B/C/S, and then
1 we can clarify whether there is any doubt as to the translation or the
2 content of your statement.
3 So your statement from 1995, page 6, paragraph -- the second
4 paragraph from the bottom of the page: "I told Drko" --
5 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic, I think the witness may have found the
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Mrs. Dosen, did you locate the paragraph?
9 A. Yes, but I have the English version.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Read in B/C/S and see if she accepts that that is
11 what she said in the statement.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I wanted to notify the OTP that I am
13 to read from the English version, page 5. [In English] Last two
15 [Interpretation] "I said to Drko, Help me save my husband. He
16 replied, Be quiet, Dosen. You Dosens have a lot of butter on your heads.
17 This is an expression that means you have a lot to answer for. When I
18 realised that there was to be no help there, I went up to Sljivancanin,"
19 and the dialogue follows.
20 Even in that statement given to the OTP you claim that you spoke
21 to Drko first and then went to see Sljivancanin.
22 MS. TUMA: Your Honour, I would like to interrupt here, please.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Then it must have been like that. I
24 am tired and confused by now.
25 MS. TUMA: So the question, so there will not be any confusion for
1 the witness or any kind of misleading to the witness, concerning
2 yesterday's transcripts, and that is page number 3804, line 8 and 9.
3 There is a question put by me: "Thank you, Mrs. Dosen. You
4 mention here that you had no one else to turn to. Did you make any try
5 before you addressed this tall officer in this respect in order to get
6 some help?"
7 And then the answer follows from the witness: "I tried to speak
8 to a friend of Martin by the name of Darko Vuk, I told him ..." and that's
9 the rest.
10 So just to clarify this, so there would be no confusion for the
12 JUDGE PARKER: So you're pointing out that the evidence given
13 yesterday by the witness indicated that she spoke to Drko first, and then
14 to Major Sljivancanin.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Mrs. Dosen, my intention was not to confuse you, rather I was
17 confused by your answer, but perhaps we can move on.
18 A. Thank you.
19 Q. As you were leaving the hospital and in the area where the buses
20 were parked, you said yesterday that there were some other wounded who
21 couldn't walk by themselves. My question hence is the following: When
22 you were returning to the hospital compound, were those wounded still
23 there, if you remember?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Thank you. Both yesterday and today in your answers to, I
1 believe, Mr. Borovic, that your first husband was an active officer with
2 the JNA, or professional soldier?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And yesterday you stated that that was one of the reasons how you
5 could tell JNA ranks apart. That's what you claim in your OTP statement,
6 as well as during yesterday's testimony. Isn't that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Therefore, I conclude that you're familiar with the ranks of the
9 JNA. During your entire stay at the hospital, that is, when you came out
10 of the hospital and when you were searched and when you stood in front of
11 the buses, did you see any other JNA officer being present there?
12 A. No, I didn't. No other officer apart from Mr. Sljivancanin next
13 to the bus.
14 Q. As you marked yesterday on the photograph, you saw my client next
15 to the first bus, close to the entrance gate at -- of the hospital, and
16 you said that he was wearing a camouflage uniform with the rank of major?
17 A. Yes, it was multi-coloured.
18 Q. You heard him being addressed as "Major, sir." Isn't that
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Am I mistaken in thinking that you saw my client's face many times
22 on TV and the newspapers and various other media and that that is how you
23 knew that it was Mr. Sljivancanin?
24 A. You mean after the war?
25 Q. Yes, after that, after the events.
1 A. Yes. I used to see him often, but what you can be certain of is
2 that I spoke with him at the hospital, and that I would claim nothing else
3 if it were not true.
4 Q. You only saw my client once you had decided to go and look for
5 help elsewhere because you were not getting any answers as to the fate of
6 the buses. Isn't that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You approached Mr. Sljivancanin, and you left your daughter Tanja
9 with your husband, who was still in front of the third bus. Is that
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Based on all the drawings and the photographs we do have an
13 impression, but could you tell me approximately what was the distance
14 between the place where Mr. Sljivancanin was and the place where Martin
15 was lying on a stretcher?
16 A. It was the distance of, say, the length of a bus, or a bus and a
18 Q. And after the conversation with Mr. Sljivancanin, you returned to
19 your daughter and your husband and Mr. Sljivancanin remained at the place
20 where you had your conversation?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Yesterday you testified that Mr. Sljivancanin then told two
23 soldiers to lift Martin's stretcher and carry it somewhere. But where
24 to? Did you hear him say anything as regards that? Where was he to be
25 moved to?
1 A. I didn't hear that. I only heard him say that they should carry
2 the stretcher away. That's when I picked up my bag and I followed Martin.
3 Personally I thought he was being taken back to the hospital, but they
4 left him outside in the passage on a stretcher. I didn't hear
5 Mr. Sljivancanin say where he was to be taken to.
6 Q. I will again read a part of your testimony in Dokmanovic case, you
7 testified there under oath, that was page 56, the same day, the 6th of
8 February, 1998. I will read in English again, because that's the official
9 transcript received.
10 [In English] "He looked at me, I turned around and told two
11 soldiers to go back for Martin and to take him back towards the hospital
12 and that we should follow."
13 [Interpretation] Then in 1998, as you've testified, you heard that
14 my client told these soldiers to return your husband to the hospital.
15 Does this refresh your memory in any way as to him moving -- being moved
16 back in front of the hospital?
17 A. Not into the hospital, but that they put him back in front of the
18 hospital, exactly where they left him, not inside the hospital.
19 Q. But you heard his words, as you testified then, and today you're
20 saying you didn't?
21 A. I told you that I didn't hear Mr. Sljivancanin tell them anything
22 as to where he was to be taken. "Where" can mean a lot of things. He
23 just told them return him in front of the hospital on the stretcher, not
24 into the hospital. I can't tell you exactly where, apart from that.
25 Q. But you did hear me read this and that was your statement back
2 A. Yes. That He was to be returned back on the stretcher, and that
3 was in front of the hospital.
4 Q. When you spoke about your husband's belongings with Sljivancanin,
5 do you remember that at that time you said that you were to carry his
6 stuff? That's what you told my client. Do you remember that?
7 A. Yes, I said I had his things and that I wanted him to have them.
8 And then Mr. Sljivancanin said --
9 Q. So let's not repeat yet again.
10 A. Yes, but when he asked me who was to carry his stuff, then I
11 said, "Well, all right, I will," in that case.
12 Q. And after that you put your daughter in front of you and you were
13 pushing her back towards the hospital. Isn't that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You confirmed to me what you stated then, and that was on the next
16 page of the transcript, and perhaps you can tell me if this is truly so.
17 After the discussion about the belongings, you said the following: [In
18 English] "Then I said if there is no one to carry, then I will carry it.
19 And then I pushed my daughter in front of me and told her to go forward,
20 because I just want to join the other women and children, because my
21 husband kept me -- telling me that we should always be where there are
22 lots of other people, where everybody is together."
23 [Interpretation] Is that the way things went?
24 A. Precisely so.
25 Q. Did Mr. Sljivancanin tell you to go back to the courtyard or did
1 you do it of your own free will, together with your daughter, as was
2 stated, because your husband kept telling you that you should always stick
3 close to a large group of people?
4 A. Yes. But Mr. Sljivancanin told me to go and join the other women
5 and children.
6 Q. Your daughter Tanja did not overhear your conversation with
7 Mr. Sljivancanin; isn't that correct? You told her about what you
8 discussed with him?
9 A. Tanja was crying a lot later, and we spoke about it, and I told
10 her that Mr. Sljivancanin told us to go and join the other women and
11 children. And I don't want to go through all the detail again, but as to
12 whether she was able to overhear the conversation, she may have. It
13 wasn't far away. She could overhear our conversation, but later on we did
14 discuss this between the two of us. She was very close to her father, and
15 she always had many questions as to what had happened. But in any case,
16 she could overhear the conversation. She wasn't too far away.
17 Q. But to be more precise, you said she could overhear the
18 conversation. But you came back to her after your conversation with
19 Mr. Sljivancanin, and then you went back toward the hospital. Isn't that
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Thank you. In the statement from 1993 consisting of three pages
23 that we saw before the break, nowhere did you mention there that you had
24 any conversation with my client, Mr. Sljivancanin, concerning the
25 belongings. Please take a look at that statement. That is not the
1 statement given to the OTP, but rather the statement with three pages. In
2 that statement --
3 JUDGE PARKER: Is that 1993 or 1995, Mr. Lukic?
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] 1993, Your Honour. I apologise for my
5 sloppiness, but that's the statement that was previously on the screen
6 dated the 14th of April, 1993, the statement given to the Ministry of
7 Health. The witness can read out the entire statement, if necessary, but
8 that's what she mentioned there.
9 Q. Mrs. Dosen, that's the second page from the middle, you can have a
10 look at that. Apart from your discussion with my husband [sic] and saying
11 who was Dosen, a-ha Dosen, apart from that, you never mentioned anything
12 to Mr. Sljivancanin.
13 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter's note that the counsel probably
14 meant "my client."
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is correct, sir. It is the
16 statement, but it concerns itself with certain events -- or rather, is
17 unrelated to any testimony. This was more of a general statement about
18 the events one underwent, or rather went through during the war. I only
19 mentioned there that I spoke with Mr. Sljivancanin and we didn't go into
20 any detail. This was simply a statement describing the ordeal I went
21 through. I didn't go into much detail then, particularly not about the
23 Q. Could you please answer with a yes or no. In that statement you
24 described your conversation in detail, the conversation you had with that
25 soldier, as well as the event concerning Ruzica Markobasic, then your
1 conversation with Drko, and then the way you were taken out of the
2 hospital, and Capalo's arrival together with the other local
3 paramilitaries. And concerning my client, you only mentioned the dialogue
4 in terms of he asked you what -- which Dosen, oh, that Dosen, and that
5 that's it. Can you confirm that for me?
6 A. Yes, I can.
7 Q. Thank you. Could you please answer my next question briefly so as
8 not repeat what we already said. I wanted to tell you that we heard some
9 other witnesses before this Tribunal, some of whom were together with you
10 in the hospital, and some of those people said that my client was not in
11 front of the buses until the very last moment when the buses left. What
12 would you be your comment concerning that?
13 A. I believe they are wrong. And I can say that under oath.
14 Q. Let us follow the chronological order. Now you were moving with
15 Tanja back to the courtyard of the hospital. The trucks you previously
16 described, had they already arrived, or did they come somewhat later, or
17 rather how much time elapsed before the trucks arrived?
18 A. When Tanja and I returned to the courtyard, two trucks were
19 already there and the wounded were already being placed on the trucks,
20 only the immobile ones, and -- yes?
21 Q. Did you see Martin being loaded on to either of the trucks?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Yesterday you said that you could see the trucks but not the
24 buses. As I understood it, that was because of the wall of the hospital.
25 Can you tell us whether you saw at least a portion of any of the buses,
1 perhaps the front part, from where you were standing in the courtyard?
2 A. When I returned to the courtyard, I could see the rear of the
3 first bus, just a small part of the bus. To see them one would have to go
4 further, or lower, spatially put, otherwise you only see but a portion. I
5 could see the trucks much better from where I was than the buses. There
6 were lots of women and children. Perhaps I would have seen the buses had
7 I been anywhere closer or in front of the group, but I went back to my
8 mother-in-law so that I could tell her where Matija [as interpreted],
9 Tadija and Martin were.
10 Q. May I conclude then that at any given moment you could see a
11 portion of any of the buses as well as the trucks, that they were all
12 there together at the same moment?
13 A. Yes, but that -- for about 10 minutes after I got back, and then
14 afterwards not at all.
15 Q. Thank you. Now I'm going to remind you once again of your
16 statement from 1985, or rather 1995, the counsel corrects himself. I
17 could perhaps read it out to you.
18 Do you have the statement in front of you, page 8? The third
19 paragraph starting: "By roughly half an hour later."
20 A. Page 8?
21 Q. In B/C/S version, in your language, that is.
22 A. I seem to have a different document. Just a moment, sir.
23 Q. [In English] ERN number for the registry is 005374669, I think.
24 [Interpretation] The statement to The Hague Prosecution on the
25 22nd of August, 1995.
1 Let me just repeat it once again for the registry's representative
2 sitting next to the witness. 00537469. Page 8, number once again
3 00537476. If you have found it?
4 JUDGE PARKER: Paragraph 3.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. It starts by a sentence: "Approximately half an hour later."
7 A. Yes, and then it goes on Marin Bilic [as interpreted].
8 Q. No, no, hold on a second. Would you please read out that
9 sentence, and that sentence only, very slowly? Can you read the sentence
11 A. Yes. "Approximately half an hour later, I saw Marin, Bili, Vidic
12 coming together with a group of observers from the EC and coming in the
13 direction of the group of women and children."
14 Q. Thank you. Do you remember that, when the European Community
15 representatives came along and the fact that he -- that the person
16 accompanying them was Marin Vidic?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You testified yesterday that the representatives of the European
19 Community arrived at around 11.00. Is that correct?
20 A. Yes, I said roughly speaking at 11.00. We didn't have watches. I
21 really can't tell you the exact time. I said that around 11.00.
22 Q. My question is very simple. According to what you said in the
23 statement in 1995, and we can agree that our memory is more effective when
24 we talk about short-term rather than long-term memory, so once again, as
25 of the moment when you got there and you saw the buses and trucks, until
1 the moment that the observers of the EC came along about 30 minutes
2 passed, roughly speaking 30 minutes. That's what you said?
3 A. Yes, about 30 minutes.
4 Q. Thank you. Do you remember what the gentleman from the EC and
5 Mr. Vidic did? Who did they talk to?
6 A. They were talking to the representatives of the army, and they
7 went in towards the hospital. They went inside, because there were more
8 wounded in the hospital, that's when we understood that there were more.
9 And they were going to agree about the convoy and then they could tell the
10 women and children where the convoy would go.
11 Q. And in your statement in the next sentence you said: "They talked
12 to all of us in general."
13 Do you remember them talking to you?
14 A. Yes, afterwards. First of all, they talked among themselves, and
15 they reached agreement, and then they talked to us, and they said that
16 people who wanted to go to Croatia should board certain buses, and people
17 who wanted to go to Belgrade and Novi Sad should board other buses.
18 Q. Do you remember that later on in the convoy when you reached
19 Mitrovica, did they make a list of your names as well, not just the
20 wounded? Do you remember the European observers making a list of the
21 names of all the people in the convoy?
22 A. Yes, they did. They did take our names on a number of occasions.
23 Both on that day when he reached Mitrovica and the following day when we
24 left Sremska Mitrovica, they took our names again.
25 Q. Did you tell any of them what happened to your husband? Did you
1 show them the medical records that you had on your person?
2 A. No. I didn't talk about it to them. I myself, I mean. I
3 personally did not talk to them about it.
4 Q. Did you show the medical records to my client, the ones that you
5 had, and that referred to your husband?
6 A. No. I didn't show those papers to Mr. Sljivancanin either. I
7 didn't even think of it.
8 Q. I would just like us to take another look at another document.
9 You have it next to you. It is one of the pieces of evidence from the
10 65 ter list, it's 703. So it's the form, as far as I can see, the -- from
11 the government of the Republic of Croatia and the commission for the
12 missing and the arrested persons. It is ERN 01006150.
13 Do you have the document in front of you, madam? Thank you. Are
14 you familiar with this document?
15 A. Yes. That's what we had to do, what we had to fill out in
16 relation to missing persons.
17 Q. Could you turn to the last page, please, and can you confirm that
18 your signature is indeed on that page?
19 A. Yes. That's my signature.
20 Q. If you take a look at this form, did you yourself fill it in? Is
21 this your handwriting or did you dictate it to somebody else?
22 A. It's not my handwriting. The lady who worked at that office
23 filled it in.
24 Q. And you provided her with the relevant data?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Could you tell us what you understand the term "paramilitaries" to
2 mean? Who would you describe as paramilitaries?
3 A. Paramilitaries are self-proclaimed soldiers who had not gone
4 through special training, who do not belong -- well, I knew of the JNA,
5 and I did not know of any other type of army back then.
6 Q. Could I put it simpler -- in simpler terms. As far as you were
7 concerned, JNA were not paramilitaries back then; others were, right?
8 A. As far as I was concerned, JNA was my army.
9 Q. Could you look at this form once again, page 3. Number 8. Can
10 you see it?
11 A. Just a moment. Yes. In item 8 there is a question in this
12 form: "Who was involved in forceful taking or ferrying away of people?"
13 And you gave the answer: "Members of other paramilitary units."
14 And then in number 9 if he said: "Do you know who did it?"
15 You said: "Yes." And you said that: "There were Vukovar guys
16 wearing uniforms called Capalo and Drko."
17 Now, my question is the following: Who was -- or who is Micko
19 A. Micko Avramovic was a good friend of Martin's.
20 Q. Did he provide you with any information about your husband later
21 on, and if so, what sort of information?
22 A. First of all, my Martin took Micko across the Danube in the course
23 of all those events because Micko's daughter was at the hospital in
24 Novi Sad. But they were school friends. And then Micko came to the
25 hospital and he greeted Martin, but he first went in search for his wife,
1 in search of his wife because he didn't know where she was, and he said he
2 would come back to the hospital, and in the meantime all these things
3 happened. And I suppose after the fall of Vukovar he left and went to
4 Germany, and through his mother-in-law, through his wife's mother, he sent
5 me a message, and she was to tell me that he was half an hour late getting
6 to the hospital.
7 Q. Did you also -- did he also tell you in that message that your
8 husband was killed at Negoslavci because Arkan was looking for him because
9 he had known your husband from before? Do you remember that being a part
10 of the message as well?
11 A. Yes. But he said that he had heard that Martin was supposedly
12 killed by Arkan in Negoslavci. He sent me a message according to which he
13 had heard that and that he was half an hour late getting to the hospital.
14 Q. And that's the reason why you mentioned those names in this form,
15 Capalo and Drko, as people who took him away. Is that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I suggest that this
18 document be admitted into evidence?
19 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, that will be received.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Under the reference 175, Your Honours.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions, but I do
22 have a proposal. That is -- I suppose we should see how we can organise
23 this. All three Defence teams would like to take a look at the original
24 medical records, because we've only seen photocopies, and first of all
25 these photocopies are rather -- rather difficult to read.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic, I would like to give the Prosecution an
2 opportunity to re-examine before 7.00. Can we deal with your proposal at
3 a later time?
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Quite, yes. Definitely, I do
6 JUDGE PARKER: Mrs. Tuma, do you re-examine?
7 MS. TUMA: Yes, please, Your Honour. Just only one question here.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
9 MS. TUMA: So perhaps we will have time to deal with that.
10 Re-examination by Ms. Tuma:
11 Q. Mrs. Dosen, do you hear me now?
12 A. Yes, I do.
13 Q. Is it correct to say that you said both yesterday and today that
14 Serbs from Vukovar left the city before the real conflict began, and also
15 during the conflict?
16 A. It is.
17 Q. When you were yesterday, and also today, speaking about wells in
18 Vukovar, were people -- where people collected water, did people in
19 Vukovar generally know where those wells were located?
20 A. I don't know whether they knew in all of Vukovar, but in the
21 building in which I was, we knew of those houses. We knew that that
22 particular house -- I mean, whenever a house was built in our area, a well
23 would be built as well, so we supposed that almost every house would have
24 a well for the watering of flowers, et cetera, so as not to have -- to use
25 the water supply from the city system, they had these wells.
1 Q. Okay, thank you, Mrs. Dosen. That's fine.
2 MS. TUMA: I'm done so far. Thank you.
3 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mrs. Tuma.
4 Mrs. Dosen, you will be pleased to know that that is the end of
5 the questions for you. I know it's been a long two days.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
7 JUDGE PARKER: But you will see now that we have come to the end.
8 The Chamber would like to thank you for your assistance in making yourself
9 available for these two days to assist us with your evidence. And you are
10 now free of course to go about your ordinary life. And the court officer
11 there will assist you. So thank you very much, and that concludes our
12 work with you and the need for this videolink.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.
14 [The witness's testimony via videolink concluded]
15 JUDGE PARKER: Now, Mr. Lukic, we still have some time. You had a
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I wanted to say this in the presence
18 of somebody from the registry who, for example, was sitting next to the
19 witness. The problem is that these photocopies of the medical records
20 that have been submitted to us are not really legible in parts. We know
21 that there are fairly simple systems for coloured photocopies, and I
22 suppose that it is possible to do that in Zagreb, or else that we could
23 perhaps have a scanned coloured photocopy of these documents, or, if
24 possible, for the witness to submit the originals to the representative of
25 the registry so that we can take a look and then we would return them.
1 Let me say straight away that we really do have a problem with the
2 temperature chart, and we can't read anything at all, and you will
3 understand that it's a rather important document from where we stand.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Mrs. Tuma, can you assist? Is the original the
5 document that has been tendered?
6 MS. TUMA: The document that we have here with the OTP is the
7 photocopy, and -- but I do have to investigate, because we have some
8 information here that the original has been -- is by the registrar. So --
9 but I don't know that for to 100 per cent for a fact. So in order to --
10 JUDGE PARKER: It's quite possible if the witness has given
11 earlier evidence in earlier trials that it is an exhibit in the earlier
12 trial. That may well be where it is.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If I may come in at this stage, we
14 heard it from the witness yesterday that she actually had the originals.
15 She said that yesterday. And I seem to see her nodding now.
16 JUDGE PARKER: If that is the case, could I ask the court officer
17 who is with her now if it would be possible for him to bring with him back
18 to The Hague the originals for them to be copied more carefully?
19 It seems that that is agreeable, Mr. Lukic. When they come here,
20 perhaps they could just be examined by the Defence at some convenient
21 time, and I think that may be enough for your purposes. But I'm sure that
22 it would be preferable if we could return the originals to Mrs. Dosen as
23 soon as possible.
24 So we will, I expect, be able to assist you, Mr. Lukic. Thank you
25 for that.
1 Is there anything further, Mrs. Tuma?
2 MS. TUMA: No, thank you, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE PARKER: I'm looking at the time, and I think there is no
4 point in thinking of starting a further witness with seven minutes to go,
5 so that we will adjourn now for the evening and resume tomorrow at 2.15.
6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.53 p.m.,
7 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 8th day of
8 February, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.