1 Thursday, 2 March 2006
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning, Mr. Berghofer. If I could you mind
7 you of the affirmation you made at the beginning of your evidence which
8 still applies.
9 Mr. Moore.
10 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much. Thank you very much.
11 WITNESS: DRAGUTIN BERGHOFER [Resumed]
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 Examination by Mr. Moore: [Continued]
14 Q. Mr. Berghofer, I want to move on in our evidence, please, to your
15 return to Velepromet on the 21st of November. Now, can we just deal with
16 your return. Do you remember coming back to Velepromet?
17 A. I do.
18 Q. And you've told us that you came back, I think, with the same
19 people who had been with you to Modateks. Is that right?
20 A. That's right.
21 Q. Well, let's deal with Velepromet. Were you actually taken inside
22 or did you go inside the Velepromet facility?
23 A. We set out from Modateks across the field. We actually walked
24 across the field.
25 Q. And did you have -- did you travel by yourselves or did you have
1 any escort or people with you?
2 A. We were escorted by Jezdimir Stankovic, who was the brother of a
3 friend of mine and another man. They were wearing JNA uniforms.
4 Q. And just for completeness, were they armed or not? That's
5 Stankovic and the other.
6 A. Yes, they were. They had automatic rifles. And he said: Don't
7 run away, Beli, otherwise we'll have to kill you. I was the first, and
8 all the others were following behind me. He didn't say anything else bad.
9 He didn't kick me or anything.
10 Then we entered Velepromet. We entered a room, but in front of
11 that room there were two young regular soldiers. They searched me. They
12 took my watch and very few Yugoslav dinars that Goran Ivankovic gave to me
13 in Modateks. There wasn't a whole lot, just a little bit. But the
14 soldier who took my watch said: This is the kind of thing I like. And he
15 said: What do you have in your shoes? I had new walking shoes. And I
16 said: I have nothing. And he said: If I find anything at all, I'll cut
17 your feet off. And I said: Okay.
18 So that was all the conversation I had with them, and then we
19 entered the room and it was the so-called death chamber. Whoever went in
20 never used to come out alive; that's why we used to call it a death
22 Q. Thank you very much. Now, I'd just like you, please --
23 MR. MOORE: I wonder if it's possible for the registry to put on
24 the screen a photograph, aerial photograph, of the Velepromet facility.
25 The number is 04672115. Now, can that be blown up, please, so that we can
1 see it. Mine's not very well in focus, but let's try it.
2 Q. This is a photograph, Mr. Berghofer, of the Velepromet facility
3 from the air. Now, have you got it in focus, or is it, like mine, rather
4 opaque, rather blurred?
5 A. It's pretty clear.
6 Q. On your left-hand side, I believe, perhaps even on your right-hand
7 side, we have got a screen and we have got a magic pencil that allows you
8 to mark up and to point out where you were taken.
9 Now, before you do that, because you've not done this before, just
10 look at the facility, familiarise yourself with it. The -- the entrance
11 is to the right, as we look at the photograph. Do you agree with that or
13 A. I do.
14 Q. Can you put a small cross and an A, a capital A where the entrance
15 is, as you understand it.
16 A. [Marks].
17 Q. Thank you very much. Now, you've told us that you were taken to a
18 room. Can you circle the area where the room is, as far as you believe it
19 to be. So can you put a circle around the area where the room is.
20 A. [Marks].
21 Q. And can you put an R for that, please, standing for "room."
22 A. [Marks].
23 Q. But could we make that a little bigger, do you think?
24 A. [Marks].
25 Q. Thank you very much.
1 MR. MOORE: I wonder if I might make a suggestion to the Court,
2 whether it's possible for the assistant to put a clear letter to assist
3 all parties when it comes to the recollection, to put an R there. I don't
4 know if the Court would agree with that proposed course.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Well, I see at the moment an R that's reasonably
7 MR. MOORE: Well, I've got a very bad screen, so I can't see
8 anything apart from red. If it's clear for all parties, then there's no
9 problems about that.
10 Might I then ask for that to be made an exhibit, please.
11 JUDGE PARKER: I would suggest if the court officer would put a
12 capital A at the first marking.
13 THE USHER: [Marks].
14 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
15 It will be received, Mr. Moore.
16 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be exhibit number 229.
18 MR. MOORE: Can we just switch off that particular exhibit,
19 please, from the screen? And can I be told when that's been removed?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's okay.
21 MR. MOORE:
22 Q. So that particular map has now gone, has it? Is it still there,
23 Mr. Berghofer, or has it been removed or not?
24 A. No.
25 Q. It's not been removed? It's gone now. Very well.
1 Let's deal then, please, with your evidence about the room. Why
2 did you call it the room of death?
3 A. Because we came across some of ours, some of my acquaintances,
4 such as Ljubo Pribudic [phoen], Slobodan Vuletic. The young Uhlarik, Crk,
5 who was the manager of the Vukovar slaughter-house. Rene Matausek.
6 Another young guy who was Golac's son, and Golac was a friend of mine.
7 And then there were two women there as well. And then there was this son
8 of a Roma musician there as well. And an elderly friend of mine as well;
9 I can't remember his family name right now. Then another two women and --
10 Q. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt you. Can you -- if you
11 want to carry on, do carry on.
12 A. And those of us who arrived from Modateks.
13 Q. Thank you very much. When you say you came across some of ours,
14 were those people actually inside the room when you entered that day?
15 A. They were, yes. They were inside.
16 Q. Were you able to see if any of them or injured?
17 A. The young Uhlarik and Slobodan Vuletic were tied up with wire,
18 their hands and their backs. And the others were not tied up.
19 Q. Can you tell us, then, what happened when you were in that room.
20 A. We arrived at around 3.30. It was still day-light and it was a
21 nice day. And as time went on, a reservist came in. He was uniformed.
22 He was a local. And if Your Honours allow me -- I mean, he used rather
23 vulgar language. Am I free to repeat that?
24 Q. I don't think there's any problem. Most people, I think, have
25 heard bad language.
1 A. Okay. That person, a young man, about 28, 29 years of age, a
2 stout man, blond, he turned to Miroslav Perkovic and said: Fuck your
3 mother. Did you need this? And he hit him with a heavy shoe on his head.
4 And he said: First I'll cut your ears off and then your head as well.
5 And he got that young Roma guy Dzemo, the gypsy's son, he got him
6 up. He was a short guy, no more than a metre and a half, as we used to
7 say. And this other guy was a powerful, a strong man. So he lifted him
8 up basically, and he said: This is a real ZNG and not you. And he took
9 Rene Matausek, and Dzoga, Crk, and his manager, because they used to work
10 together in the same company, the four of them as I remember now, and then
11 he came back for Miroslav Perkovic. And he kicked him twice and he threw
12 him out, pushed him out.
13 Q. I just want to deal with the way you describe certain things. You
14 use the phrase "he came back for Perkovic." Now, to come back in my
15 language means to have gone out and returned.
16 A. That's correct.
17 Q. Well, what did he do then with the others before he came back for
19 A. He took him out -- he took them out of the room.
20 Q. Did you ever see the people that he took out of the room? Did you
21 ever see them again?
22 A. Never again, no.
23 Q. Did you ever hear what had happened to them?
24 A. No.
25 Q. The people who were in the room when you entered - and you've
1 described and given the names of some of those people - what ethnicity
2 were they?
3 A. As far as I know, well, if you take the Roma boy and, to be quite
4 honest, Slobodan Vuletic was raised by a man who wasn't his parent or
5 anything, so he never knew what his real nationality was, at least I
6 myself was never interested to find out. And all the others were Croats.
7 Q. You've told us about people being taken out and Perkovic being
8 kicked. What other incidents happened in that --
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. -- room that you can remember?
11 A. As far as I can remember, he slapped this elderly friend of mine
12 quite forcefully. He was born maybe in 1936 more or less. And as far as
13 I can remember, another man who I knew by sight very well, an elderly
14 gentleman, he was complaining that he left his wife at home and she was
15 bedridden and that she was on her own for four days by then. And he used
16 to live next to the Sloga football stadium. And he was asking to be
17 allowed to go and see her and at least be able to give her a drink of
19 Q. Do you remember coming out of the room?
20 A. Yes, I remember very well.
21 Q. Can you tell us, please, how that occurred? What happened?
22 A. But I need to give you a very brief introduction to this bit.
23 When they were taken out, a neighbour of mine came along. His
24 name -- his mother's family name was Ikac and his father's family name was
25 Turukalo. Up until the 16th, we had been giving him food. He was a Serb,
1 an Orthodox man, and he never participated in any sort of action. He
2 never did anything wrong, but on the 21st he was already wearing a uniform
3 and an automatic weapon.
4 He came in and with a smirk on his face he said: Oh, look who's
5 there. And another one said: Beli, I wouldn't like to be in your shoes.
6 And I asked: Why not? And he said: For all the tales you told on Radio
7 Vukovar. And I said to him: I didn't tell tales. I am Beli and not
8 Bili. Bili was the mayor. And that was the end of the story.
9 And at around 11.00, 11.30 p.m., the door opened and two young
10 soldiers came in. And they said: Don't be afraid; the captain wants to
11 save you. Let's go out. And we then went out and we pushed the bus,
12 because the engine wouldn't start, and finally it did start and we were
13 driven to the barracks.
14 Q. Well, let's -- let us deal then, please, with the barracks. How
15 many people from that room were taken to the JNA barracks that evening?
16 Just give us an approximate number.
17 A. Maybe some 50 [as interpreted] people. Some of them came from
18 some other rooms, I can't tell you exactly where from, but there were not
19 that many of us in that one room that I was referring to earlier. There
20 were more people on the bus than in the room, so they must have come from
21 somewhere else.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Vasic.
23 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just one point with
24 regard to the transcript. Page 8, line 13, the witness said "15 people,"
25 and it has come out as "50" in the transcript.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
2 Could you just check that, please, Mr. Moore.
3 MR. MOORE:
4 Q. Mr. Berghofer, there may be a difficulty in the translation
5 sometimes. I just want to clarify one small matter. We don't know
6 whether you said it was either 15, 1-5, or 5-0, 50, people who went to the
7 barracks. Can you clarify that for us.
8 A. Berghofer has never said "50" because there had never been 50
9 people there. Between 13 and 15, thereabouts.
10 Q. Well, let's deal, please, if we may, with over at the barracks.
11 Where were you taken -- where were you taken to, inside the barracks or
12 outside the barracks? Can you give us a picture?
13 A. In the barracks, in a room there.
14 Q. And were all of you in the same room?
15 A. We were.
16 Q. And can you tell us what happened in the barracks, please.
17 A. As soon as we entered the room, we got a pack of cigarettes and a
18 can of meat. The manufacturer was the Gavrilovic company. And we were
19 given 250 grams of bread; as we say, a quarter of a kilo of bread. I,
20 myself, had had nothing to eat for three days, and I suppose it was the
21 same for the others.
22 When we had eaten, a gentleman came in. He had a huge beard. It
23 covered most of his face. I don't suppose his own mother would have known
24 him had she seen him. He lined us up, and he started giving us a
25 political lecture. He said: What for did you serve the Ustashas? Wasn't
1 this state good enough for you? And so on and so forth. I must admit, I
2 couldn't remember everything he said. He didn't actually hit anyone, but
3 he insulted us a great deal.
4 Q. Thank you. You've said that "he didn't actually hit anyone." Was
5 anyone hit in the barracks when you were there?
6 A. We nodded off for a minute, and I heard sounds of someone being
7 hit and I heard someone moan. As far as I remember, the person being hit
8 was my neighbour Silt, but we never talked about this later. I don't see
9 that many people really.
10 Q. When you say it was your neighbour, does that mean he was in the
11 same room as you?
12 A. Yes. Yes. I have no idea where he came from. I can't say. He
13 was in the same room, though.
14 Q. And did you actually see who was hitting him?
15 A. No.
16 Q. I think the time came when you eventually left the JNA barracks.
17 Is that right?
18 A. Yes. The next morning, the 22nd.
19 Q. And can you very briefly, so that we get a picture of what
20 happened, tell us how it was you eventually left the barracks.
21 A. The next morning a young soldier came and said: Your full name
22 and your ethnicity. There were two or three ethnic Serbs there. I
23 remember one man who's name was Zare. He was suffering from some sort of
24 mental disturbance or deficiency. All the others there were Croats.
25 Q. And what happened then, please?
1 A. I must say -- I've always been a Croat myself, ever since I was
2 born. But then the census came along at one point, and my former wife, my
3 ex-wife, was an Orthodox lady, a Ruthenian, and when the census came, it
4 was for our children's sake that she wrote Yugoslav ethnicity. My last
5 name happens to be very difficult to spell, and I was the last to enter my
6 name, so I told the soldier: Drago, Berghofer, Yugoslav. 40 minutes
7 later he came back and said: I'll be calling out names, and those whose
8 names are called out must go to the bus. When he came to me he said: A
9 Yugoslav. So we got on the bus, and we were off to Sremska Mitrovica.
10 Q. And the people who went to Sremska Mitrovica, what was the
11 ethnicity of those people?
12 A. There was a man name Slobodan Nikolic among us, a rather young
13 man. He liked football, but he liked a good drop, too. I called him
14 Stoplara, and he got on the bus at Negoslavci.
15 Q. Mr. Berghofer, that's obviously the way I put the question. The
16 people who got on the bus that morning from the JNA barracks, can you tell
17 us what ethnicity they were, the bus that went to Sremska Mitrovica?
18 A. I understood your question perfectly well, sir. That's what I was
19 trying to point out. He was the only Serb to get on that bus; all the
20 rest of us were Croats. Had he been at the barracks, he would not have
21 been on that same bus with us.
22 Q. Thank you very much. I'd like to deal with probably only two
23 other topics. We know, because we've heard in this court, that there were
24 various wells in the Vukovar city area. Now, were you aware of that fact?
25 A. Yes, I know about the wells, especially those in my immediate
2 Q. Thank you very much. Now, the wells themselves - you excuse the
3 pun - how well were they known to the general population?
4 A. Well, 40 years ago, nearly every house had a well. There were
5 five or six wells in Stjepan Radica Street alone.
6 Q. Can you -- do you know from your personal knowledge of what --
7 from what you've been told whether the administration ever kept a check on
8 the wells before 1991? Do you understand the question?
9 A. I do.
10 Q. Well, can you tell us then what you know about the
11 administration's knowledge of the wells.
12 A. Back in 1990 or thereabouts, they started listing all the wells.
13 My house was near the barracks, and we didn't have a well. However, 300
14 metres down the street there was another house with a well outside in the
15 streets, and the opening was covered over in concrete. I said: Let's
16 keep this one. And my shop was nearby, just down the street. But the
17 wells were targeted by mortars with such precision that they were all
19 Q. Thank you.
20 A. I can't --
21 Q. Thank you very much indeed. I want to deal with an area --
22 MR. MOORE: If we could show the map, the large map. I think it's
23 Exhibit 170, but it's map 6. It's Exhibit 156. Can we show that on the
24 screen? It's 0462-6622.
25 Q. Mr. Berghofer, again we're going to hope that it will come on the
2 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, can I just say that the screen here in
3 this court that I have is always causing problems for both Mr. Smith and
4 myself. We don't have a clear picture. I wonder if it's possible for the
5 administration to have a look at it at some time, please.
6 JUDGE PARKER: I'm sure that can be taken care of.
7 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.
8 JUDGE PARKER: We like to keep the Prosecutors very vague and
9 somewhat in the dark, Mr. Moore.
10 MR. MOORE: I think it's a natural gift in any event.
11 Q. Now, do you have a map in front of you on your screen?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And can you actually see it clearly?
14 A. Well, yes, you can see the hospital. You can see Velepromet. You
15 can see the road to Ovcara, the road to Negoslavci.
16 Q. Now, what I would like done, please, if it's possible - and I'll
17 move to this screen, if I may, which is better - I would like to see if
18 the administration, the registry, could focus in to what I call the
19 central area, please, the Americans call "downtown." Yes. I hope that's
20 clearer for everybody.
21 Now, can I just go through this map with you, Mr. Berghofer. If
22 you look at the map you can see lines running from top to bottom. The top
23 is the north; the bottom is the south, and obviously lines across going
24 east and west. You have got a large area of blue going through this map,
25 which I know you have seen before, and that is the Danube. And then you
1 have the Vuka river which runs almost at right angles, coming out almost
2 where the N is of Dunav. Do you see that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Would you be kind enough, please, to put a small red dot where you
5 believe the Vuka River comes out into the Danube.
6 A. [Marks].
7 Q. Thank you very much. Now, I want to deal with the area that is
8 south of the Vuka River, where the vast majority of the buildings are. Do
9 you understand?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now, by common consent, that is the principal part of Vukovar, the
12 residential area itself. Do you agree or not?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Can you tell us how badly damaged that area was from September,
15 October, through to November. Can you give a description to the Court the
16 sort of damage that was being done south of the Vuka River.
17 A. Well, I think -- not that I think, I actually passed there earlier
18 on, too. The road I usually took was to the hospital and back.
19 Everything was flattened. I couldn't see a building that was still intact
20 anywhere along the road.
21 Q. I want to deal with damage or injury to civilians in the area
22 south of the Vuka River, the area that I've referred to. I think it's
23 right to say that you had a common-law wife in 1991? Is that right?
24 A. She was a friend.
25 Q. I'm sorry to ask you these questions, but I'm afraid I have to.
1 And what was her name, please?
2 A. Ljubica Jurisic.
3 Q. And what happened to her?
4 A. She was living -- I'm not sure how I should explain that to you.
5 It was some distance from my house, but the same general direction. The
6 road leading past the barracks. It was an area called two hills. That
7 was where she lived. They shelled the entire area, so she fled to
8 Radiceva Street and stayed at number 74. She took shelter in my cellar
9 with another 40 women and children. That was in my shop, and the cellar I
10 had at Brijeg.
11 Q. So how did she die, please?
12 A. Well, let me tell you. Every single day the shelling was so heavy
13 that you just couldn't keep track anymore. There was a shell that landed
14 in the courtyard. It shattered all the glass panes, smashed against the
15 concrete wall of the shop, and the cellar was in the same building. She
16 didn't want to light a cigarette down in the cellar, so she just popped
17 her head out for a minute, and she was struck in the neck by shrapnel, by
18 a piece of shrapnel. She was killed on the spot.
19 Q. I'm sorry to ask you that, but I haven't quite finished. You also
20 had a daughter who unfortunately was killed. Is that right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And can you tell the Court in very short form how it was you
23 believe she was killed. And you don't have to go into detail. Just
24 shortened form is fine.
25 A. When I met my grandchild, that was four years later, in Blace,
1 which was a refugee camp, my granddaughter told me that Cvijanovic Pavle
2 had taken her away, a man, a Serb, whom we had been giving food to up
3 until the 17th. Whenever my ex-wife met him, she would ask him the same
4 thing every time: Where's my daughter? Can I use some foul language,
6 Q. That's all right.
7 A. Go fuck yourself. That was his reply every time.
8 Q. And can you tell us, please, when it was, before or after the fall
9 of Vukovar, that you believe she was killed?
10 A. She was taken to Negoslavci to stay with someone who was allegedly
11 a relative, or maybe she was evacuated to that area. So for a while he
12 stayed at Negoslavci. All I knew was she had been taken away. Pavo
13 Gavric, who was at this time taken to Mitrovica, when they took her to
14 Negoslavci at more or less the same time, once he had left Mitrovica he
15 said that my daughter had been taken to Negoslavci. This was on the
16 15th of September or thereabouts. However, she went back. She went back
17 to the house after the fall of Vukovar, and it was sometime in early
18 December that she was eventually led away, on the 1st or 2nd of December.
19 I can't be more specific.
20 Q. Thank you very much. I'm sorry to ask you those questions.
21 Finally this: We have -- I want to return to the list, and I'd
22 like you to be given a hard copy, please, 04680147. It was made an
23 exhibit yesterday.
24 Now, can we just deal with this list. Mr. Berghofer, you've told
25 us that you wrote it, and forgive me, your writing is almost as bad as
1 mine, so could we perhaps just read out into the record the names of the
2 people that you say that you saw in Ovcara. So I don't want to deal in
3 any detail about these people, unless it's necessary, but I just want to
4 go through the names so we've got them on the court record. So if you
5 read them from your paper copy in front of you, it will be easier for you,
6 I assure you.
7 So who is the first person? Who is number 1, please?
8 A. My apologies for the handwriting, but believe me, when you're
9 remembering these things it is very hard to keep your hand steady.
10 Back to your question. Dragan Gavric. On my street, Dr. Mladen
11 Stojanovic Street, a Croat that was next to the barracks.
12 Q. Number 2, please.
13 A. Sinisa Veber. His father is a hairdresser. My peer. That's
14 three houses down the road from my shop. He's a Croat. Vlaho. I know he
15 was an ambulance driver with the hospital, lived in the same house as the
16 late Ljubisa Jurisic near the area known as two hills, or, rather, it was
17 Tome Goreta [phoen] Street. He's a Croat, too.
18 Q. Number 4, please?
19 A. Goran Vidos, a hospital employee. His father was my manager,
20 another Croat.
21 At number 5 we see Pavlovic. I think his first name was Zeljko.
22 Just across the way from my shop. A young man, aged about 24, a Croat.
23 Number 6, Sinisa Glavasevic, a journalist, a Croat.
24 Lili lived near the Catholic church. He was a Croat, a very
25 proficient football player, but I can't remember his name.
1 Number 8, Jurela, the son of Tomo and Zlata. Zlata used to work
2 as a nurse at the hospital. He was a Croat, too.
3 Zvonko Iles. When we were children, we used to call him Zriko.
4 He's about my age, a Croat.
5 Branko Polomija, a journalist, just like Sinisa Glavasevic. I
6 don't know what his ethnic background was, but he was a rather young man.
7 11 and 12 are the Kolak brothers. They lived at Patkoviceva
8 Street, Croats. I used to be friends with their father for long years.
9 If only you could see their father and mother now. Oh, what a pitiful
10 sight they are. They are like a couple of living dead; they can't seem to
11 get over it.
12 Herman Stjepan lived in the house next to my shop. The Kolak
13 brothers were Croats, and Stjepan, too, was a Croat. The son of Car, the
14 telephone operator. That's what you called him.
15 Number 14, Herman, also known as Svabo. He came over from Germany
16 at some point, even had a uniform.
17 Number 15 is Ante Bodruzic. One of the managers at the Danube
18 hotel, the head waiter. Rather young. I used to know him because I
19 changed the upholstery on the furniture in one of his rooms.
20 Q. Can I just stop you for a moment. Number 12 and number 13 --
21 well, it's really number 13 and number 14. Are you able to say what
22 ethnicity they are, number 13 and number 14?
23 A. Both Croats.
24 Q. Thank you. Sorry for interrupting you. Let's move on to
25 number 15. Are you able to say what ethnicity he was?
1 A. Ante Bodruzic was a Croat.
2 Q. Let us resume then at number 16, please.
3 A. Ivan Kovac, a Croat, who used to work at the post office. To the
4 very last day he was manning the phones.
5 Q. Number 17, please.
6 A. Dragica Tuskan, and her son Drazen, Croats. Used to work with me
7 for quite a long time, same company.
8 Number 19, Markobasic. Can't remember the first name or
9 ethnicity. I probably never even saw the lady until we were driven into
10 Ovcara and then I saw a woman standing there across the way. Baumgertner;
11 it's difficult to say anything about the ethnicity. The last name strikes
12 me as German, but I really don't know what his stated ethnicity was.
13 21 was a man who came over from Nasice to help us out, almost as a
14 tourist, you might say. Last name Kuhar. I remember him because he came
15 to my warehouse. His shoe size was 48. Couldn't find a pair for him,
16 unfortunately. He is still in Zagreb. Nobody wants to see him. He has
17 no parents, and his brother refuses to go and get him because he was
18 forfeit the compensation that the Croatian state has been paying him for
19 missing persons.
20 Now we get to Dado Djukic. His father was an X-ray technician. I
21 have no idea what he might be in terms of ethnicity.
22 Nikica Holjevac. Your Honours, he was a respectable, honourable
23 man, just like you, and yet he was killed at Ovcara.
24 Damir Polhert. He was the son of a good friend of mine. Because
25 when I first started as an apprentice in upholstery, he was my master, as
1 it were.
2 And then Zeljko Begov, a Croat, who worked at the Nama department
3 store, and he used to live right next door to the barracks.
4 Number 26, Damjan Samardzic, as far as I heard, he was a truck
5 driver. I never used to know him before, but I got to know him during the
6 war. His stepson, Gaspar, that is to say, the son of his present wife. I
7 don't know what the nationality is.
8 Now number 28 and 29, they're both called Bosanac. One was almost
9 80 years old, and the other at the time must have been around my age, that
10 is to say, 50 back then. And they lived close to the hospital. I think
11 in the Bozidar Adzija Street, or as we used to call it Sapudl.
12 Number 30 is Tomislav Bajdrauh, a friend of mine, my age, and
13 yesterday I forgot to say maybe -- or did I mention it, Oliver Jovanovic.
14 I think he was a Serb through his father, Djuro.
15 And then Tomislav Pap who used to be a warehouse keeper at the
16 hospital with Dr. Bosanac, and I don't know what his nationality was.
17 Q. I hear the word being interpreted as "nationality." I'm going to
18 check in relation to ethnicity for number 26, et al. Can we just deal
19 with number 26? I'm sorry to ask you this, but it hasn't come across
20 terribly clearly.
21 Let's go to 26, please. Do you know the ethnicity of number 26?
22 A. No, I don't. No, no, I never used to know him before.
23 Q. That's all right. I'm not asking you to guess in any way.
24 Number 27, 28, and 29, do you know the ethnicity of those people, please?
25 A. Gaspar should be a Croat, judging by his surname, but I don't know
1 for sure.
2 And 29 and 28, as far as I can tell, I'm not sure, they're Croats
3 because his son was courting my younger daughter. So that's how I know
4 that he was a Croat.
5 Q. Finally this: How is it that you're able to remember 32 names and
6 give a list of people that you say you saw at Ovcara 15 years after it
7 happened? Can you tell the Court why you were able to remember these
9 A. Look, it's quite simple. Those were people I used to see on a
10 daily basis. I made the list of names the very next day, following my
11 return from Sremska Mitrovica. I wrote down all of 27 names straight
12 away, and just to jog my memory because women used to come to Plitvice
13 Hotel and see me and ask me: Beli, did you see my husband? Did you see
14 my boy? Or whatever. And so I could answer: Yes, I saw them at Ovcara.
15 I don't know. I mean, this is no problem. I may have a problem with
16 other things, such as fixing a broken TV set or something. But this is
17 very easy. Those were neighbours of mine, so I have no problem
18 remembering them.
19 Q. Thank you very much.
20 MR. MOORE: I have no further questions.
21 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Moore.
22 Mr. Vasic, we will probably stop at about 20 past, so if you could
23 keep that in mind. Because we're finishing earlier today, we'll shorten
24 each session a little.
25 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I'll try and
1 go through some technical points in the first part, and we won't be
2 needing that much time.
3 Cross-examination by Mr. Vasic:
4 Q. Good morning, Mr. Berghofer. Let me introduce myself. I am
5 Miroslav Vasic, one of the Defence counsels for Mr. Mrksic.
6 A. Good morning to you. Pleased to meet you.
7 Q. Thank you. I do have something I'd like to point out to you. So
8 far you have been answering the questions by my colleague and you had to
9 listen to translation. We are both speaking a language we both
10 understand, so I would like to appeal to you to pause very briefly after
11 my questions so that the interpretation can come through.
12 First of all, let us go through some technical points in
13 conjunction with the statements you made so far, and as far as I can see
14 there's quite a bit. Since I do not know whether you've had the
15 opportunity to consult the copies of your statements recently, I do have a
16 bundle here.
17 So I'd like to ask the usher to hand all these statements to you,
18 and then you can give them back to us later.
19 Mr. Berghofer, your first statement relating to the events in
20 Vukovar in 1991, November 1991, dates back to the 6th of April in Zagreb.
21 Do you remember that?
22 A. Very well.
23 Q. Thank you. Our colleagues from the Prosecution did provide us
24 copies of your statements. I can't see, though, who this statement was
25 given to. So could you tell me who it was on that day, on the 6th of
2 A. Sir, they came to collect me at Plitvice Motel, and I had to go to
3 court. And that was the first statement I made, and I was asked to
4 identify two men and tell what they did in Vukovar in the course of the
5 war. Their family name was Dragosavac. Since those two were not the
6 Dragosavac men who were considered to have done certain bad deeds in
7 relation to Croats, and so I said: Gentlemen, the older one I do not
8 know. And as far as I can remember, the younger one didn't say "boo" to
9 anyone. And they approved it. They said: You're an honourable man. You
10 only returned from Mitrovica three days ago, and you're an honest man.
11 And as to Ovcara, some two people from MUP came to Motel Plitvice,
12 as far as I can remember, and I dictated my statement to them.
13 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Berghofer. Can you just tell me: You
14 said that you dictated your statement to them. Did they show you a copy
15 of that statement and did you sign it? Do you remember that?
16 A. I did not sign it. It was in a notebook, as far as I can
18 Q. Could we just make sure. Could you be so kind and take a look.
19 There should be a statement, a copy of a statement, in front of you. The
20 title is "statement." And in the right-hand corner, it says VUBOR.421.
21 And to the left it says "Dragutin Berghofer." Have you found it?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. I would like you to tell me who you gave this statement to. Was
24 this a statement you gave to the members of the Croatian MUP?
25 A. I have to start at the end because there have been some mistakes
2 Q. Can you see the date in the left corner, the 6th of April, 1992,
3 on the last page? The bottom left corner.
4 A. Let's say that 90 per cent of this is correct.
5 Q. I was not asking you about the contents of the statement; I was
6 just asking whether this is the statement you gave to the MUP
8 A. Certainly. Because there are certain names here, because some of
9 the people who were with me didn't even know those boys. I was the only
10 man who actually recognised Bulidza, who recognised Mugosa.
11 Q. Thank you. So far -- now you've had the opportunity to scan this
13 A. That's correct.
14 Q. Now I'd like to ask you the following: After that, you talked to
15 the MUP representative of Croatia once again on the 1st of June, 1992, and
16 there is official record of that. Have you seen that?
17 A. Let me tell you: I think I gave my statements as many as eight
18 times so far. I can't remember every single one as such, but yes, I did
19 give those statements.
20 Q. Thank you, Mr. Berghofer. Could you maybe take a look at the
21 document entitled "The Republic of Croatia, the Ministry of the Interior."
22 And the date is the 1st of June, 1992.
23 A. Yes, fine.
24 Q. Official record. Have you seen it?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. It says that you were interviewed by Ivica Dodlek, an employee of
2 the MUP. Did you talk to him and did he compile the report after that?
3 A. Yes, now you've jogged my memory. That's this guy called Ivica.
4 The thing is I couldn't quite remember earlier on, but that's correct.
5 Q. Thank you. And then on the 16th and the 17th of June, 1995, you
6 talked to the OTP from The Hague Tribunal, and on that occasion a
7 statement was compiled which was read out to you in a language you could
8 understand, and you signed it. Is that correct? Do you remember that?
9 A. It was not read out to me, but I did sign it.
10 Q. And prior to signing it, did you know what it contained? Were you
11 sure that it contained exactly what you said?
12 A. I suppose so. I can't argue with that.
13 Q. Thank you. After making a statement to the OTP, you were
14 interviewed as a witness before the investigating magistrate of the
15 municipal court at Vinkovci on the 7th of March, 1996 in a criminal case.
16 Is that correct? Do you remember that?
17 A. I don't understand that question.
18 Q. Let me remind you. This was a case against the defendants at the
19 time, Veljko Kadijevic, et al., and in that case did you give testimony
20 before the investigating magistrate at the municipal court in Vinkovci in
21 1996? Do you remember that?
22 A. Against Kadijevic?
23 Q. Yes.
24 A. No. That man had nothing to do with me. I have no idea about
1 Q. Could you just take a look in front of you. In this stack of
2 documents there should be one entitled "Record of Witness Statement," and
3 it says KIO741/95-52, and it says "Dragutin Berghofer, Witness," and the
4 criminal case against Veljko Kadijevic, et al. Have you found that?
5 A. Just a moment. I can't remember that. Perhaps it was the
6 cooperative of the former camp inmates from Vukovar, and they lodged a
7 complaint. They actually sued Mr. Kadijevic as a cooperative. I can't
8 remember having said anything about Kadijevic in particular myself.
9 Q. Could you just take a look on the first page, by the end of the
10 page to the right there's a signature, in the right corner -- in the
11 bottom corner of every page. Is that your signature?
12 A. Yes, it is.
13 Q. So it is indeed possible that you made this statement to the
14 investigating magistrate?
15 A. It might be, but I can't remember blaming -- I did blame the JNA,
16 and I did it together with my fellow inmates, if that's what you're
17 talking about.
18 Q. Thank you. No. I didn't say that you gave evidence directly
19 against Veljko Kadijevic; I'm just saying that you made a statement in
20 this case.
21 A. Yes, presumably.
22 Q. Thank you. Shortly afterwards, following a request from my
23 learned friends from the OTP you came to The Hague and you gave evidence
24 in a case according to Rule 61 before this Tribunal. It was on the
25 27th of March, 1996. Is that correct?
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. Thank you. After that you appeared before the Trial Chamber as a
3 witness in a court case before this Tribunal, and it was on the 4th of
4 February, 1998. Is that correct?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. Prior to that testimony, did you receive copies of your statements
7 from my OTP colleagues, the statements that you made to the OTP
8 investigators? Did you read them? And were you asked whether you had any
10 A. Yes, I did read through them.
11 Q. Thank you. After this day, on the 26th of April, 2004, you again
12 gave evidence following a request from the district court for war crimes
13 in Belgrade, and you gave your statement before the court in Zagreb. And
14 you made a statement and you signed it. Is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Finally, you also gave evidence before the district court for war
17 crimes in Belgrade during two days, on the 25th and the 26th of October,
18 2004, and there is a transcript of that testimony. Is that right?
19 A. Right.
20 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me: In the course of all of these
21 testimonies, you've always tried to make statements according to the best
22 of your recollection because you have always been warned of the need to
23 tell the truth and the consequences of perjury. Is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, now I have finished with
2 the technical bit, and I think that this would be a suitable time for a
4 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Vasic.
5 We will resume at a quarter to 11.00.
6 --- Recess taken at 10.24 a.m.
7 --- On resuming at 10.51 a.m.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Vasic.
9 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. Mr. Berghofer, I would like to get on with my questions now.
11 Up until the 24th of October, 1991, you were living in your own
12 house at Sajmiste. How far was that from the barracks, the JNA barracks,
13 in Vukovar?
14 A. Eight or nine metres.
15 Q. Thank you. You later moved to a different house where you say you
16 stayed until the 17th of November, 1991. How far was that house from the
17 JNA barracks?
18 A. This other house -- well, you have the barracks, you have the
19 Slavija mill -- well, say about 700 metres.
20 Q. Thank you. You were a member of Vukovar's 204th Brigade, right?
21 A. Yes. It was only recognised later on, but, yes, that's true.
22 Q. We're familiar with the problems surrounding the recognition of
23 that particular brigade. Once the war had ended, you were not exactly
24 happy with your own status, the status you were later to be granted as a
25 member of the Vukovar Brigade, right?
1 A. That's not quite how it was. I was quite happy. Where does the
2 problem seem to be?
3 Q. Didn't you believe that some people were granted recognitions and
4 awards which they had not earned during the fighting in Vukovar?
5 A. Well, that's quite true. One thing I was unhappy about was that I
6 had had five houses and two shops before the war, and all my country gave
7 me afterwards was a small 35 -- was a small flat of 35 square metres, and
8 that was that.
9 Q. Sir, when exactly did you join the preparations for the armed
10 struggle? Was that as early as May 1991, perhaps?
11 A. Well, one thing I can tell you is that I was never into politics,
12 and I was not in favour of any subversive activity against the previous
13 country. I had put an enormous effort into building the house that I had,
14 and once they tore that house down the tide turned for me, and I was no
15 longer in favour of the JNA. Yet everybody was still saying: There will
16 be a truce, there will be a truce, so day by day I kept deciding to stay
17 in Vukovar and not leave.
18 Q. What you've just told us is in reference to August 1991, right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What about between the 5th and the 8th of August, 1991? Were you
21 involved in any preparations for armed combat in the town of Vukovar?
22 A. All of us, the people of Vukovar, or nearly all of us, although we
23 were not all directly involved, the official date is the 2nd of May for
24 all of us. However, at certain points I was on duty at the local commune
25 building, at the radio station, Nikola Papac and myself, Marko Oric, those
1 people. We were on duty there, although it was a perfectly regular
2 occurrence that people still chose to stay in Vukovar at the time.
3 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me who was in charge of all these duty
4 shifts and securing certain house and streets. Who organised this entire
5 thing at the level of the entire town of Vukovar?
6 A. It wasn't a very professional set-up. Nikola Papac just asked me
7 whether I would keep him company. What are you doing tonight, he said.
8 And he said: The MUP people told me should there be an incident in one of
9 the villages around Vukovar that I should go and report to them. So I
10 just decided to join him. We were very good friends, and I decided to
11 keep him company for the night at the local commune building in
12 Stjepan Radica Street.
13 Q. Thank you. You told us about the fact that you were a member of
14 the 204th Brigade. As far as I know, it was only established sometime in
15 September 1991, wasn't it?
16 A. No, not as far as I remember. It wasn't before I was a detainee
17 in Sremska Mitrovica that the 104th and the 204th Brigades first came into
18 existence. But I don't think it was that early on. Don't take my word
19 for it, however.
20 Q. There was something else I wanted to ask you about this. Wasn't
21 it the National Guards Corps that you joined at first?
22 A. Mr. Vasic, did I get your name right?
23 Q. Yes, you did. Thank you.
24 A. The National Guards Corps, I was a grandfather by this time with
25 three grandchildren, and I was pushing 51. I don't think your question is
1 appropriate; that is at least what I think.
2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Berghofer. But the reason I ask this is because
3 that's what your statement indicates, the statement that you gave to the
4 Vinkovci investigating magistrate on the 7th of March, 1996, on page 2 of
5 the statement.
6 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] For my learned friend, the English
7 reference is page 3.
8 Q. Do you remember telling them that you had joined the
9 National Guards Corps?
10 A. If those civilians were National Guards Corps members, then I have
11 no choice but to agree with you.
12 Q. Thank you very much. Could you please go to page 2 of the
13 statement, in case you found it. The statement is dated the 7th of March,
14 1996. A statement to the investigating magistrate, record of witness
15 interview. That's what it says.
16 A. What was the date?
17 Q. 7th of March, 1996. You have witness information on the title
18 page, and that might be easier for you to track down.
19 A. I can't see the date anywhere. Is that what it says in English up
21 Q. No, no. The heading should be "Record of Witness Interview."
22 That's what it says in capital letters.
23 A. I can't see that. I can't find my way around all these papers.
24 Q. I'll have the usher assist you. I have a copy of this.
25 A. This says "Zagreb."
1 Q. It's not Zagreb; it's Vinkovci. Do you have it now?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Please go to page 2 of this document. Paragraph 4 begins with the
4 word "immediately." Can you please read that aloud, the first two
6 A. Certainly.
7 "Immediately after the occupation of Vukovar, out of all of the
8 units that I mentioned, I joined the ZNG and Vukovar's defence. We
9 resisted the attacks until the 18th of November."
10 Should I go on?
11 Q. No need, thank you. Do you remember stating this?
12 A. I can only say that I did. There were many such statements. You
13 see the pile of documents in front of me, don't you?
14 Q. Thank you. You said you were a member of the 2nd Company of the
15 1st Battalion of the 204th Vukovar Brigade?
16 A. Yes. Menges came along and said that, didn't he.
17 Q. Did this brigade have a number of units at Mitnica, Sajmiste,
18 Borovo, Priljevo and in the surroundings of the hospital? Were all those
19 units part of the 204th Vukovar Brigade?
20 A. I see where you're going with this question, and I can only
21 confirm that Vukovar's defenders were in those areas, too. I didn't go
22 there to see them, but I'm sure that they were there.
23 Q. I understand that. Thank you. Can you tell us how many
24 battalions the brigade comprised? You, yourself, for part of the
25 1st Battalion. Did you know at the time or did you later on find out how
1 many battalions the brigade comprised?
2 A. I can hardly be expected to know that, Mr. Vasic. We were a very,
3 very small group.
4 Q. Thank you. Where was the 1st Battalion positioned exactly in
5 August 1991 and later on in November 1991? So August and November, that's
6 what I'm asking about.
7 A. They were 200 metres from the fence surrounding the barracks.
8 There's an orchard that I owned in the vicinity, so I know the area. The
9 area is usually referred to as Slavija. It's a small area.
10 Q. Thank you very much. Did they hold on to these positions into
11 November 1991 or not?
12 A. Up until the 17th, is that what your question is about, which date
13 was that?
14 Q. Well, you can tell us which day it was when the defenders left
15 those positions.
16 A. It was the 17th of November, 1991.
17 Q. Do you know how many companies your battalion comprised?
18 A. I don't know, Mr. Vasic. I was a warehouse keeper.
19 Q. Thank you. In your capacity as a warehouse keeper, did you
20 provide any supplies for your battalion or perhaps for the brigade or
21 perhaps for the residents of Vukovar or the hospital itself?
22 A. We did take supplies to the hospital two or three times. We took
23 some sugar for Dr. Vesna Bosanac. Nikola Papac was still alive. We
24 brought some coffee, too. As far as I know, that was it for the hospital.
25 On the last day only, just before the army got there - and we may
1 discuss that later on - as for the other brigades, they never got any
2 supplies from us because we, ourselves, were not too strong on supplies.
3 We had about 2.000 civilians to look after. That's a ballpark figure.
4 I'm sure you understand. The street is full of cellars, because there is
5 hillside just behind the houses stretching about 20 metres away from the
6 houses. As for those positions over there, as far as I remember, there
7 were at least between 80 and 90 people manning those positions, give or
8 take a man or two, people that it was my duty to look after.
9 Q. Thank you. As you went about your duties, did you ever meet
10 anyone called Franjo Kracak at the positions near Sajmiste?
11 A. Yes, sir. I did meet him. I knew him before the war, too, but he
12 was younger than I was, and we hardly ever exchanged greetings. He was
13 wearing a uniform, I do remember that, and I gave him two or three
14 chocolate bars that I got from the warehouse. And I never saw him again.
15 But I did know him by sight.
16 Q. You say you knew him. Can you tell us if he was a mortar expert.
17 A. I don't know, Mr. Vasic. But if I can help, his nickname was
19 Q. Thank you. Do you know who was in command of your company, the
20 2nd Company of the 1st Battalion, during the fighting in Vukovar?
21 A. If you give me a minute, I may be able to explain what I was.
22 Q. Please go ahead.
23 A. What I was, in Stjepan Radica Street there was a local board
24 building a local commune building that had been demolished by shelling.
25 We moved to the so-called Hungarian street. It's further down
1 Radiceva Street. People from Vukovar know that. The building currently
2 houses the police administration, so that was where we moved to. And
3 believe it or not, there were seven or eight of us who owned private
4 businesses. We joined forces, put together a bit of money, and organised
5 a defence for Vukovar for the small area that I described as Slavija, near
6 the barracks. None of us were schooled officers or anything like that.
7 The first commander there was Tomislav Berendi who was a mechanic.
8 Q. Can you just repeat this person's last name, and I didn't hear it
9 clearly enough myself, to be quite frank.
10 A. The first commander at the local commune building in Stjepan
11 Radica Street was Tomislav Berendi, a mechanic.
12 Q. Do you perhaps know that during August, before the fighting broke
13 out in Vukovar, there was a check-point at Sajmiste where people leaving
14 Vukovar for Negoslavci were stopped, as well as those driving back into
15 Vukovar. Do you know if there was one to begin with, and do you know that
16 it had been organised by the ZNG?
17 A. I can't really confirm that, but I know that people were talking
18 about something that sounds very much like this. I wasn't there myself,
20 Q. Do you know if a part of your unit was positioned at the Stjepan
21 Supanc school?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. I was wondering if you could help us out with this. If we
24 considered the defence line in Vukovar, what does the term "Osa 3" mean,
25 O-s-a 3?
1 A. Yes, I do, Mr. Vasic, and anything I know I am willing to share
2 with you. First you had Vuka 1, Vuka 2, and Vuka 3. And then Josip
3 Tomasic was stung by a wasp, so then it was no longer Vuka 1, Vuka 2,
4 Vuka 3. Now it became Osa 1, Osa 2, Osa 3.
5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note, "Osa" means wasp.
6 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Were these defence lines that were called this in certain places?
8 A. No. These were check-points set-up at a number of private homes,
9 some sort of a guard, you might say.
10 Q. Thank you. Does the name Ivica Pancic mean anything to you? Did
11 it mean anything to you at the time?
12 A. No, not at the time and not now. I really don't know, but I think
13 he was a rather young man. It was not entirely strange that I didn't know
14 him or notice him.
15 Q. We could perhaps show you the same map that you were shown by my
16 learned friend, the map of Vukovar. Could you use it to mark the defence
17 lines held by your battalion.
18 A. Mr. Vasic, as far as I know, you, too, grew up in Yugoslavia. Do
19 you know what a battalion means? As far as I know, that's a whole lot of
20 soldiers, isn't it? Do you agree with me on that?
21 Q. I definitely do, Mr. Berghofer. I definitely do. But can you at
22 least mark the positions held by members of your company, if you can; if
23 not, please just say so.
24 A. Sure I can, sure. No problem at all. I can tell you about it
25 without looking at the map. Pavkovic, Mikara [phoen], the small area also
1 known as Slavija --
2 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Can we have Exhibit 156 run up on the
3 screen, please. As soon as we have it, I would like to have it enlarged
4 and the witness can tell us when it's sufficient.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's in as far as I'm able at all
6 to find my way around the map.
7 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can I have the central
8 portion of the map enlarged, please?
9 Q. Is this enough for you, sir?
10 A. Well, you could say it is.
11 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Can the usher please hand the witness
12 the pen that was previously used to make markings?
13 Q. Can you please mark the positions of your company, the ones you
14 held on to until the 17th of November, 1991?
15 A. Mr. Vasic, this long line you can see right here, is that the road
16 to Belgrade?
17 Q. The line running down the middle of the map is the road to
18 Negoslavci, and there's another line to the lower right corner. That's
19 the road to Sotin.
20 A. Yes, Sotin and on to Belgrade. And what about this thing here on
21 the right-hand side? Is that the water-tower by any chance? Right here
22 where it reads "JNA" and then somewhere down from there.
23 Q. It says JNA --
24 A. Yes, and there is an arrow to the left from there.
25 Q. As far as I know, that is Mitnica. And the water-tower I do not
1 think is marked on this actual map.
2 A. Because if I could find the water-tower I could just turn from
3 there, and the distance is about 200 metres from there.
4 Q. But please try to use the barracks as your reference point.
5 A. Well, how can I if we have this line running down the middle of
6 the map? But it should be around here at any rate. Just a minute,
7 please. I don't want to go wrong on this, because, after all, I live
8 there. But let's say it might be around here.
9 Q. Can you now please draw a line to mark the position of the defence
10 line, and mark it with a number 1, and then circle it, please.
11 A. What's this line right here where the arrow touches down near this
13 Q. I think these are the streets of Vukovar, and the small squares
14 you can see there are actually houses.
15 A. If that's a street, then it must be Mladena Stojanovica Street, if
16 my understanding is correct. That's how it should be. The barracks is
17 right here. Let's try to avoid confusion.
18 Q. Certainly. I assume the defence lines ran along certain streets.
19 Can you draw a line to indicate where the defence lines were.
20 A. Well, you see, they were stationed at Patkoviceva Street, which is
21 right next to Mladena Stojanovica Street. And you have Mladena
22 Stojanovica Street right there, and there's a sports hall right there.
23 I'm not sure if you know. It should be somewhere around these parts.
24 It's all a bit of a jumble here on this map, but the whole thing was about
25 300 metres from the barracks itself. The distance was no greater than
2 Q. So you've marked two positions for us, right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. One's just off the barracks and the other one is at Mitnica?
5 A. No, it's not at Mitnica.
6 Q. The water-tower?
7 A. No, closer to the town's centre. We had nothing to do with
8 Mitnica, where the sports hall is, if you can find it. It's up on a hill.
9 Q. Thank you. Can you mark this spot on the right-hand side with a
10 number 1 and circle it, please, and the other one in front of the barracks
11 with a number 2 and circle it, please.
12 A. Let me just stress, micro area Slavija is up there on the hill
13 bordering on the street of Dr. Mladen Stojanovic Patkoviceva Street, just
14 so as to avoid any misunderstandings.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like for this
17 map to be admitted into evidence.
18 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be exhibit number 230.
20 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. We won't be
21 needing this picture anymore for the time being.
22 Q. Thank you, Mr. Berghofer. You, as member of this unit, also had
23 an automatic rifle. Is that right?
24 A. I myself did not have one, no. A fortnight before the fall, I
25 received a gun and during the breakthrough I exchanged it for an automatic
2 Q. So it was only during the breakthrough that you were carrying that
3 automatic rifle?
4 A. That's correct. And I exchanged it right in front of the forest,
5 and I gave my gun in exchange for an automatic rifle, and I then returned
6 it afterwards. When we came to the hospital, I placed it under a burnt
7 car next to the barracks and next to the hospital, and not a single bullet
8 had been fired from that weapon.
9 Q. If I am understanding you correctly, what you're saying is that
10 this rifle and the ammunition was placed under this car?
11 A. Mr. Vasic, there was no ammunition, there was just an automatic
12 rifle. And as to whether there was any ammunition actually in the rifle,
13 believe me, and you will have to believe me, I have no idea.
14 Q. I do believe you. Thank you. Can you just tell me with reference
15 to this shed, is it within the parameter of the hospital, close to the
17 A. Yes, that's where it has always been.
18 Q. And do you know whether any other members of your company had
19 hand-held grenades, apart from automatic rifles?
20 A. I don't know. This is too much to ask.
21 Q. Thank you. And can you tell me whether at any point by the end of
22 October/beginning of November, a general mobilisation, call for
23 mobilisation, took place in Vukovar?
24 A. I'm sorry, I can't help you on that one. I do not know.
25 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me, do you know which Vukovar defence
1 units were stationed around the Count Eltz's castle?
2 A. I don't know. I don't believe there were any units in that area.
3 As far as I know, there was nothing there.
4 Q. And have you ever heard about the units under the command of
5 Mr. Stjepan Radas was deployed there at any given time?
6 A. If that's the Radas I have in mind, if that's the one, that is, I
7 only met him at some point in 1994. But I really don't know about that.
8 The one I mean was a youngish man. I was 52, 53 at the time, and he might
9 have been around 40, if that's the man you mean.
10 Q. He was one of the commanders who was a former JNA officer?
11 A. I do not, Mr. Vasic. These people were far out of my range.
12 Q. Thank you. Thank you. What were your tasks in relation to
13 logistics? What did you have to do and how did you find out about the
14 needs of individual units?
15 A. Mr. Vasic, I had to do nothing. I just told you that we as
16 private citizens got organised without anyone's assistance, and we even
17 bought an ox from a Serb because the JNA plane had bombed his farm. And
18 so his stables were on fire and he had no money left, and so he came to
19 see me and he said to me: Beli, I don't have enough money to pay for my
20 father's funeral, but I have an ox that I'd like to buy [as interpreted],
21 and so we got together. I can tell you how many private citizens did
22 that. And we gave him money to pay for his father's funeral. And we took
23 the ox, and we provided food for both the civilians and those lads up
24 there, about 70 to 80 of them.
25 But let me continue by telling you that we would get a couple of
1 hams or pieces of bacon from Djakovo for as long as you could travel
2 through. But water was the biggest problem, in fact, because all the
3 wells had already been destroyed, and there was no municipal water supply.
4 There hadn't been any for a long time at that stage. And we had no yeast,
5 you know. I suppose you understand what I mean. So we couldn't bake
6 proper bread, and perhaps we'll come to that bit later, when I saw bread
7 for the first time after two and a half months. So that's what it was
9 Q. Thank you. Now about wells, were the wells down in the area of
10 Sajmiste as well? Is that the area you're referring to, or did you know
11 about the wells in all of Vukovar?
12 A. I do not have an insight into all of Vukovar. What I'm telling
13 you about is the Stjepana Radica Street which is the main road leading to
14 Sotin and Belgrade and so on.
15 Q. Tell me, in the course of the war, did you ever see HOS members in
16 the area of Sajmiste and thereabouts?
17 A. Mr. Vasic, at that stage there were no formations when allegedly
18 the HOS people were there, whether they were there before us, but I can
19 tell you that I saw only three people wearing uniforms at that time.
20 Q. Thank you. Does this mean that the others were civilians?
21 A. As the people who were with me, yes, and the furthest I got to was
22 Slavija and the hospital, roughly speaking, 400 metres away, three bus
23 stops away.
24 Q. Thank you. You mentioned you went to the hospital. I imagine
25 that you met your friend Mr. Ivankovic there, you mentioned you were
1 friends with him?
2 A. Yes. For example, I took a tooth-brush to Dr. Kolak because she
3 was unable to go back home. And so she said to me: Yes, please, Beli,
4 find me a tooth-brush, even a second-rate one. And she was a dentist, and
5 of course she was annoyed that she couldn't brush her teeth. And
6 obviously I met Dr. Ivankovic as well, and he couldn't go home because he
7 had no trousers. And so I gave him a pair of trousers and a pair of shoes
8 and a jacket.
9 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me whether you ever heard Dr. Ivankovic
10 complain about the fact that he was uncomfortable because the hospital
11 Crisis Staff were not treating him nicely?
12 A. I only found about that for the first time five years later when I
13 first saw him after the liberation, that is to say, after Vukovar was
14 joined with the -- to the rest of Croatia.
15 Q. Thank you. You told us about this breakthrough that you started
16 on the 17th of November, 1991. Can you tell me where this decision was
17 made, where were you when the decision was made.
18 A. We were in the offices of the now-local community -- I mean, the
19 Hungarian school down there in the Radica Street. And Osa made the
20 decision: Okay, let's go for the breakthrough. And we said: Okay, let's
21 go, because the shelling was so intense back then. I can't explain this
22 to you. It was horrible. And so we went for it.
23 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me approximately how many people set off.
24 Can you remember?
25 A. Of course, yes. I can see it clearly in my mind's eye even now.
1 I mean, I was heading the column because I grew up in that area in the
2 suburb around the hospital, next to the police station, the municipal
3 building, and there is a cemetery there which has been disused for a long
4 time. And if you are even faintly familiar with Vukovar, the end of the
5 column reached the Lola Ribar Street next to the Autobacka offices. And
6 then we went in the direction of the police station, and so we were all in
7 a column. And then we turned left toward the prison used to be. And then
8 we crossed Bozidar Adzija Street. We turned right in the direction of the
9 cemetery, and we crossed the cemetery. We crossed a football stadium, the
10 football club was called Sloga, and we crossed the grounds of that
11 football stadium. And we came out -- and I'm trying to remember the name
12 of the street. Well, never mind. It was the main street leading to
13 Adica, and then we came to the railway line. And -- yeah, Borisa Kidrica
14 Street. And there was a carriage standing in the middle of the road, and
15 there was so many of us that you could hear the sound of our feet. And
16 two metres further up there is a railway bridge. When they heard us, I
17 don't know whether it was the JNA or who it was, don't misunderstand me, I
18 don't know, but they were shelling us so much they felt the sound of our
19 feet. And there were about 350 people there.
20 Q. Thank you very much. Just two more points on what you've just
21 said. You said there were JNA people or who it was. Who else did you
22 mean? Did you mean the TO, Vukovar, the locals?
23 A. Yes. But I didn't think of them straight away because locals did
24 not have any airplanes, any tanks, or any mortars, Mr. Vasic. Can you
25 agree to that?
1 Q. I do agree, but I'm talking about this event.
2 A. Yes, precisely. On this occasion.
3 Q. But there were no tanks or planes there. Can you tell me about
4 this column. How long could it have been, if you could give me a rough
6 A. Maybe 200 metres, a winding column. I was heading the column.
7 Q. As long as the decision was made, the breakthrough decision, you
8 started off straight away?
9 A. Yes, in the direction of the town hall, and the TO offices - what
10 should I say? - the military offices, just to make it easier for you.
11 Q. Was the defence Crisis Staff there at the time?
12 A. Yes, at a certain point, but when we got there we found nobody
13 there, empty rooms.
14 I have to tell you this as well: Myself and Bili -- well, there
15 was a teleprinter there, and he said: Do you know how to use it? And I
16 said: Well, I'm useless at any of this. And he started -- and he said:
17 There's no way out. And we found no one. Everything was deserted. Okay,
18 yes, we did find Branko Borkovic.
19 And then we went on to the town hall and it was all dark. There
20 was no electricity. And we started debating. And at around 10.30 p.m.,
21 one group set off and then the other group that I was leading. And when
22 we arrived at the railroad track at the corner of the Sloga football
23 stadium and the forest, it was just horrible. And the people who were
24 crossing the Vuka River in front of me, two people were blown into the
25 air, blown to pieces, and some people thought it was me. And Beli was
1 said to be dead in Zagreb. And actually I turned back and I returned to
2 the garage together with Njofra Jankovic, Marko Mandic, his wife, and this
3 doctor, Dr. Aleksijevic, I think he was an orthopaedic surgeon, and his
4 wife as well. And Njofra Jankovic, yes, I've mentioned him already, and
5 we turned back and returned to the hospital.
6 Q. Thank you. Could you just clarify this: You said you came across
7 Bili there. Is it Marin Vidic, Bili, that you're talking about?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me, on your way back, and you said which
10 route you took, did you go straight to the hospital, you never stopped
11 anywhere else?
12 A. No.
13 Q. And why did you go in the direction of the hospital, can you tell
15 A. Because the entire town was moving in that direction. One square
16 metre of the hospital grounds had at least three people standing and four
18 Q. Was it the Crisis Staff decision that those people who didn't want
19 to go for the breakthrough to withdraw within the hospital?
20 A. The Crisis Staff had nothing to do with it. It was just that Osa
21 said: In case anyone is wounded, we won't go back for him. It was an
22 amateur effort.
23 Q. Thank you. And you talked about the column. Was it the members
24 of your company or the battalion?
25 A. Some were from our company, and God knows where all those people
1 had come from. It was night-time. We didn't have that many people on our
2 positions. At the Slavija micro area that I supplied, I don't know. We
3 didn't even know that so many people had remained in Vukovar. When they
4 all descended upon the hospital, it was an enormous crowd of people.
5 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me: Where did you hear for the first
6 time that Mrs. Vesna Bosanac said that those who came to the hospital
7 wearing uniforms should throw away their uniforms and discard their
8 weapons and change into civilian clothes?
9 A. I had no uniform.
10 I had my own civilian clothes, and let me just stress:
11 I didn't even have any buttons on my clothes.
12 That didn’t mean anything to me, if she had ordered this.
13 Q. And did you see anyone else discarding their uniforms and putting
14 on civilian clothes and discarding weapons?
15 A. I only saw them taking off yellow shoes, some of them.
16 Q. Did you see it on the 17th, when you got to the hospital?
17 A. No. I saw that on the 19th, in the afternoon -- no, no, no. On
18 the 18th -- we are talking about the 17th, yes, it was on the 18th.
19 Q. Can you tell me whether at that time you saw a great many
20 defenders of Vukovar arriving at the hospital?
21 A. I did not, Mr. Vasic, but I saw very many people wounded, very
22 many of them indeed.
23 Q. Do you remember telling the investigating magistrate in Vinkovci
24 that apart from the medical staff and the wounded, you also saw 2.000
25 civilians at the hospital and quite a few defenders of the city of Vukovar
1 amongst them?
2 A. In case you have read this, I believe you that I could have said
3 that, and it is indeed true. I told you that earlier on that quite a few
4 civilians -- I mean, I'm telling you I don't know where all these people
5 had come from. And certainly amongst those young men there must have been
6 defenders of Vukovar, I'm not arguing with that, but I wasn't with them.
7 I knew people from my own age, from my own group.
8 Q. Thank you. And did you see any of the people who arrived at the
9 hospital on those days and had participated in the defence of Vukovar,
10 either as members of military formations or as MUP members? Did you see
11 them placing bandages on themselves or wearing plaster-casts, even though
12 they were not wounded. Do you know about that?
13 A. I do not know about that, because about five days before the fall
14 of Vukovar there was no way you could drive anywhere by car because
15 everything was blocked up. And I know nothing about that.
16 Q. You didn't see any of the fighters from your own company who
17 wasn't wounded but was wearing a plaster-cast or a bandage at the
19 A. Not at all, Mr. Vasic.
20 Q. Thank you. And do you know that some of the defenders of Vukovar
21 put on white coats in order to appear to be medical staff?
22 A. Unfortunately I saw Damjan Samardzic; he was wearing a white coat.
23 But for a while he did actually work at the hospital. He was a warehouse
24 keeper for at least a month and a half. He worked at the hospital, in
1 Q. Was he one of the commanders of the ZNG units in Vukovar; do you
2 know that?
3 A. I'm going to help you. He was nicknamed big Bojler. Let's
4 suppose he was.
5 Q. Thank you. And do you know that Mr. Kolesar was wearing a white
6 coat as well? Did you see him wearing that?
7 A. No, that's not correct. Kolesar is Vukovar person, and some
8 people might be amazed that I'm remembering all these names, but I used to
9 meet them on a daily basis. Kolesar was not wearing a white coat.
10 Kolesar is a Ruthenian by ethnicity and Licina was a Serb, and Hetak
11 Salajdzija [phoen], according to his family name I believe was a
13 Q. Thank you, Mr. Berghofer. That's why I'm asking these questions
14 of you because you know people in Vukovar.
15 Can you tell me whether you saw a person called Bozidar Segec at
16 the hospital, if you know him?
17 A. If that's the Segec I'm thinking of, three houses down the road
18 there are three Segec men, father and two sons, and there was another
19 Segec who I think back then was 25 years younger than me. But now that
20 you have mentioned it, I'm remembering what he looked like.
21 Q. Thank you. I would like to know: Are you aware of the fact that
22 he was a member of the National Guards Corps?
23 A. He wasn't, Mr. Vasic.
24 Q. Thank you. Do you know a person called Milan Mlinaric?
25 A. I only know Perica Mlinaric from Borovo, but I don't know about
1 this other one.
2 Q. Thank you. And Zelimir Radosevic?
3 A. I don't know.
4 Q. And Dragutin Friscic?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Tomislav Lesic?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Zdenko Novak?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we move into
12 private session for a moment because of a couple of questions?
13 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
14 [Private session]
18 [Open session]
19 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honour.
20 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 Q. You told us about arriving at the hospital. You weren't sick or
22 wounded yourself, were you?
23 A. That's right, I wasn't.
24 Q. How come you remained in the hospital if you were neither? Can
25 you explain that?
1 A. Mr. Vasic, there was nowhere else for me to go. It was dark. I
2 was terrified. It was raining, and it was a wasteland all around. And
3 after all, there were about 2.000 people there, in my estimate.
4 Q. Isn't it true that Dr. Ivankovic allowed you to stay in the
5 hospital until the morning of the 20th?
6 A. Yes. He saw me on the 19th at about 1.00 and said: What are you
7 doing here of all people? And I said: Well, I've been here since the
8 night of the 17th. And he said: Come with me.
9 So there we were. Perkovic and I were sitting in one of his
10 offices in the hospital. It was a windowless office or room. There were
11 some nurses there, too, as far as I remember, as well as Dr. Aleksijevic
12 and his wife. There were about ten of us sitting in that room.
13 Q. Thank you very much. The idea of the Defence teams was to divide
14 our questions up among ourselves, and my learned friends will be asking
15 you other things about this. But I'll move on to the point when you claim
16 you arrived at Ovcara --
17 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Prior to which, Your Honour, I would
18 like some instructions from you, please. We have a different regime
19 today, and when do we take our next break?
20 JUDGE PARKER: It could be as early as now, Mr. Vasic, because we
21 would be finishing at about 1.15, so if we broke now it could be a
22 convenient division of time. You seem to have reached a point where that
23 would be a practical arrangement. Is that so? Well, perhaps then --
24 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 JUDGE PARKER: -- we'll give the witness an opportunity to have a
1 break now, and we will resume at a quarter past 12.00.
2 --- Recess taken at 11.53 a.m.
3 --- On resuming at 12.18 p.m.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Vasic.
5 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
6 Q. Mr. Berghofer, I'd like to ask you something about your testimony
7 in relation to Ovcara. You say that on the 20th of November, 1991, at
8 about 1330 hours you arrived at Ovcara in buses, right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. The buses you arrived on, were they driving in a column, one after
11 the other?
12 A. I'm not sure about the ones at the rear. I know about the ones at
13 the head of the column.
14 Q. Thank you. You told us that your bus was the fourth from the head
15 of the column?
16 A. Yes, as far as I remember that's true.
17 Q. You also told us that you were kept waiting for about ten minutes
18 until the first three buses in front of you were emptied. Isn't that
20 A. Yes, roughly speaking.
21 Q. Yesterday, in answer to a question by my learned friend, you tried
22 to add up the people you remembered who got into the hangar and you
23 arrived at a total of between 140 and 160. Does that mean that all these
24 people entered the hangar within those ten minutes?
25 A. Mr. Vasic, when I got off the bus, I took the rear entrance or the
1 rear door to be inspected by Mugosa. I was being beaten and being
2 searched, so that's how long it took for the people to get there.
3 Q. Thank you very much. How much time would you say? Plus the ten
4 minutes you spent waiting on the bus, how long did the search take and you
5 running the gauntlet?
6 A. Mr. Vasic, everything I saw from the bus was in those ten minutes.
7 Later on it was done with. I went to see Mugosa. He went through my
8 pockets, searched me, and I crossed the seven or eight metres to reach the
9 gauntlet. I was beaten and other people were being beaten, too. So there
10 you have it, a total of perhaps 15 minutes, give or take a minute or two.
11 I don't need to be more specific than this. I guess you agree.
12 Q. Yes, by all means I do. But just to sum it up, the whole thing
13 took 15 minutes between your arrival at Ovcara and the time you got into
14 the hangar?
15 A. You could say that, yes.
16 Q. Thank you. You were on the bus and then you got off the bus. Did
17 you see many people outside the hangar?
18 A. I saw the young soldiers there who headed left. I saw Karlovic,
19 Vili Karlovic, who was with me on the bus. There were people there in
20 addition to those who were beating other people, there were about a dozen
21 to the them to the left.
22 Q. Thank you. You said about ten people or a dozen in addition to
23 those who were doing the beating. In answer to my learned friend's
24 question, you said that those beating the other people were also about ten
25 men, right?
1 A. Yes. And the same applies to the situation inside the hangar, the
2 same number.
3 Q. Am I free to conclude three times ten would roughly amount to
4 about 30 people altogether, right?
5 A. Yes -- well, 25, 30. The beating was severe. You just try to get
6 through the gauntlet as quickly as you could in order to take refuge
7 inside. See my point?
8 Q. Thank you. There's one matter I need to clarify. You used the
9 term "reservists" in answer to a question by my learned friend. Can we
10 agree that when saying that when using that term you did not in any way
11 include those serving their regular military term with the JNA?
12 A. No, I didn't, Mr. Vasic.
13 Q. Or -- and likewise, you do not take that term to include JNA
14 officers, regular officers, do you?
15 A. There may have been some of those among them, too, but it was
16 really difficult to tell them. I'm giving you an honest account. They
17 were just dressed the way they were, and you didn't have time to look them
18 in the eyes or anything. If it had been you wearing that sort of uniform
19 at the time, I would not have been able to tell you from Adam. Do you see
20 what I'm saying?
21 Q. Yes, but I'm talking about the reservists. When you said the
22 reservists, did you mean the paramilitaries, the members of the various
23 paramilitary groups that you spoke about as well as locals wearing
24 olive-drab uniforms? I suppose all of us who did our regular military
25 term with the JNA had one of those at one time or other.
1 A. I understand your question. In the previous army, when you've
2 completed your military term, you either get a rank or you can get an
3 assignment with the reserve forces. For example, Zeljko Mojko [phoen] at
4 Modateks, when he came for Dudas was displaying the rank of captain, but
5 this was the only rank that I was able to identify among those people. As
6 for the rest, I can't really say who they belonged to, but they were
7 somewhat different from the local paramilitaries. That much I did notice.
8 There were three different kinds of uniform: The young, the reservists,
9 and the paramilitaries.
10 Q. Those you term the reservists, did you recognise among those
11 people quite a number of those who were locals, who were from the area of
13 A. There was this man who drove us to Mitnica; he shook hands with
14 me. He used to see me at the chemist that I owned and the upholstery
15 business. His wife worked with the town's land surveyor's office, but I
16 don't know his name. Djuro, he drove us to Mitnica, was wearing plain
18 Q. Have you ever heard of the Territorial Defence of Vukovar, a
19 Vukovar Territorial Defence detachment or the Petrova Gora Territorial
20 Defence detachment? I mean once you returned to Croatia after your
22 A. I heard about the Vukovar one, and I heard about the TO near the
23 municipality building. Can't say I didn't because I did.
24 Q. Do you know the members of these units, these Serbian TO people,
25 were wearing precisely the sort of uniform that you described the
1 reservists wearing?
2 A. Yes, but their uniforms struck me as a little older for some
4 Q. Thank you. When you entered the hangar, were people being lined
5 up in some sort of order or did they just stand wherever they wanted to?
6 You've described your own position to us, haven't you?
7 A. No, Mr. Vasic. People just rushed into the hangar, which is
8 lightning quick, if you know what I mean. Some people were struck down
9 and some of them managed to escape.
10 Q. Thank you. I understand that. I'm waiting for the
12 Can you tell us, sir, once you were inside the hangar, Mr. Cakalic
13 got in, and what about Mr. Guncevic, do you remember seeing him there?
14 A. Mr. Vasic, I had not known Guncevic prior to this time; it was
15 only at Mitrovica that I learned his name. And he was with me in
16 Mitrovica. Other than that, I hadn't even recognised him in the hangar.
17 As for Cakalic, we go back a long way, 40 years at least. I
18 rushed left on the way into the hangar and headed for the far end of the
19 hall. And those at the back were beating and kicking people, and when my
20 turn came I tried to go more towards the middle of the crowd, and Cakalic
21 was right there, standing about three metres to my right.
22 Q. Thank you. You testified in chief about the beating of Mr. Damir
23 Samardzic, also known as Veliki Bojler and his relative Gaspar. Where
24 were you when that occurred? Just tell us about your whereabouts because
25 you told us about the rest yesterday.
1 A. I was still on the bus. He was seated right in front of me on the
2 same bus. He went out the front door. And Goran Vidas was on the bus,
4 Q. I asked you about this, because now I'm about to ask you something
5 else. There's a photograph that I would like to show you, and if you
6 could please mark this spot where you saw these people being beaten as you
7 were watching from the bus and when some of them fell down.
8 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] The ERN number, Your Honours,
9 is 00531231. This is photograph -- number 22, rather, page number 22.
10 Could you blow this up for us, please, or rather zoom in so we can
11 see the door to the hangar in the middle of the image. Will you please
12 zoom in a bit more.
13 Q. Is this all right for you, Mr. Berghofer?
14 A. Yes.
15 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Can the usher please hand the witness
16 a pen so that he can mark the spot for us, the spot where he saw Damjan
17 Samardzic and his relative being beaten as he was watching from the bus
18 and they remained on the ground.
19 Q. Please place a cross to mark the spot where they were beaten and
20 put a number 1 there, please.
21 A. [Marks].
22 Q. Is there sufficient space -- sufficient room for you to mark where
23 they remained lying on the ground with a 2 and a 3?
24 A. The same place, roughly speaking. Off to the right there was a
25 ditch. You know what a ditch is, right?
1 Q. Yes, of course I do.
2 A. A water ditch.
3 Q. Can you please put a small cross where the ditch was and put a
4 number 2 there, please.
5 A. [Marks].
6 Q. Thank you. Thank you very much, sir. Now that we have the
7 photograph up, can you please mark the position where you and the other
8 persons were standing who were taken out of the hangar at one point
9 waiting to be taken back to Vukovar and put a number 3 there, please.
10 A. [Marks].
11 Q. Just a small cross and a number 3.
12 A. [Marks].
13 Q. Thank you very much.
14 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I seek that this be
15 admitted into evidence, please.
16 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be exhibit number 231.
18 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I have a proposal to make. We might
19 be needing this in the future, so we might want a blank photograph also to
20 be admitted into evidence because we are likely to be using it with some
21 future witnesses, to have a blank copy ready.
22 JUDGE PARKER: It can come up on the screen quickly, Mr. Vasic.
23 Is that sufficient for your purposes?
24 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] By all means, Your Honour. If it's
25 quickly retrievable, there is no reason for it to be tendered as a
1 separate exhibit. Thank you.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
3 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I'll no longer be using this. Thank
4 you, Usher.
5 Q. Mr. Berghofer, you say you saw Mr. Cakalic on his way into the
6 hangar or once he had entered. You didn't see him being beaten outside,
7 but you did see him being beaten inside the hangar. Do you remember what
8 he looked like after he had received the beating, when you saw him inside
9 the hangar, or even perhaps when you saw him later on outside the hangar
10 as you were standing there.
11 A. I think he was bruised on the right side of his body and he had
12 been beaten on his back. That's what he complained about, at least. But
13 nothing that particularly triggers any memories.
14 Q. Thank you. Does he aware glasses normally; do you know that?
15 A. I know, he does, but not necessarily when he's just walking the
17 Q. What about the time you saw him inside the hangar? Was he wearing
18 glasses or not?
19 A. I don't know, Mr. Vasic.
20 Q. Thank you. You testified in chief about young Baumgertner and
21 Kemo, who was the man beating him, right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Will you agree with me that while testifying in another case
24 before this Tribunal, the Dokmanovic case, you actually said you weren't
25 sure that the person was young Baumgertner. You weren't sure then or at
1 the time of testifying. Is that correct?
2 A. That's quite correct, Mr. Vasic. I'm still not absolutely
3 positive about the person's identity.
4 Q. Thank you. You say you saw Slavko Dokmanovic inside the hangar at
5 one point in time. Can you remember the exact time, please?
6 A. Mr. Vasic, the last time I testified - and you've got to take my
7 word for it - my brain was just stuck for the exact time. I couldn't for
8 the life of me remember whether it was 1330 hours or what time it was.
9 And believe me, I did actually look at the watch at the time. It was
10 1330 hours, 1.30 p.m., the sun was high in the sky. It was a beautiful
11 day. By the time they had unloaded all of us, well, Dokmanovic might have
12 been there between 1400 hours and 1430 hours. That's as specific as I can
13 be based on pure memory. I wasn't exactly checking my watch.
14 Q. I understand that. It's very difficult to be more specific than
15 that, especially under the circumstances. I wanted to have from you a
16 very general idea when he might have been there.
17 Sir, are you certain that the man you saw there between 1400 hours
18 and 1430 hours was Slavko Dokmanovic?
19 A. Absolutely positive, 200 per cent, if you like. He was the
20 municipal president, after all. I could not have mistaken him for anybody
21 else. He had something that looked very much like an aviator's uniform.
22 Q. Thank you. The reason I'm asking is there's information
23 indicating that Mr. Slavko Dokmanovic was in fact at a government meeting
24 at the same time you claim that he was at Ovcara. That's why I'm asking
25 if you're positive.
1 A. Positive, Mr. Vasic. I'm absolutely positive.
2 Q. You said that after Slavko Dokmanovic left you didn't see him
3 again, that you saw a reservist coming into the hangar with a whistle. Is
4 that right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Was that reservist a local? Was he from the area of Vukovar? Did
7 you maybe know who he was?
8 A. I can't remember him, and I didn't know him, and I didn't
9 recognise him.
10 Q. Was he wearing the old uniform, the old reservist uniform that you
11 referred to when you talked about the TO of Vukovar?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Thank you. After this reservist with a whistle came in, you were
14 taken out of the hangar, is that true, and that was before the beatings in
15 the hangar started. Is that right?
16 A. No, Mr. Vasic. There were beatings, followed by more beatings,
17 and there were whistles, and one group was coming -- was coming out and
18 the other was coming in. And it went on for about an hour and a half,
19 this relentless beating.
20 Q. Yes, thank you. But you heard the beatings, you heard the cries
21 and screams, and you didn't see it. You came out of the hangar before it
23 A. That's not correct, Mr. Vasic. You have been misinformed. I saw
24 it. I was an eye-witness. People were beaten up in front of my very --
25 before my very eyes. And then it continued after I left, so I heard the
1 screams afterwards. But before I went out of the hangar, I could see it
2 and I could hear it.
3 Q. Did you make a different statement to Mr. Ivan --
4 THE INTERPRETER: And the interpreter didn't hear the second name.
5 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. -- An employee of the MUP in Croatia when you talked to him on
7 the 21st of June, 1992? Did you tell him that you were taken out of the
8 hangar before the beatings started?
9 A. Mr. Vasic, Berghofer can never forget this, and I'm never going to
10 make a mistake about this. You may rest assured that Berghofer, that is
11 to say myself, has never made a mistake about this at all. I told you,
12 even before, we were beaten up even as we were -- this man would come in
13 with a whistle and then he would say: That's enough. And one group would
14 go out, and I said to myself: Thank God. But then the next group was in
15 in no time. And it was just more of the same, and also later when I went
16 out I heard had that the beatings were still going on and the people were
17 still moaning and screaming.
18 Q. Thank you. You've explained all that. What you have in front of
19 you is a document entitled "Official Report." Can you find it? It is
20 dated the 1st of June, 1992.
21 A. Yes, I can see it.
22 Q. It is on page 035 in the B/C/S version, 71460, and it's actually
23 page 3.
24 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] And for the sake of my learned friend,
25 in the English version it is 00578275, page 2.
1 Q. Could you be so kind, Mr. Berghofer, and look at the paragraph
2 starting with "on the same day."
3 A. Are you on page 2 or on page 3?
4 Q. On page 3. So halfway through the page, a paragraph starting "on
5 the same day." Just below the reference to the Frenchman.
6 A. So that's what it is, "Official Report." Is that it?
7 Q. Yes. So this is the first page where it says "Official Report,"
8 and then another page, and then it's on the next page, on page number 3.
9 A. So page number 3, fine.
10 Q. Halfway down the page the words "on the same day."
11 A. Yes, I can see it.
12 Q. Can you read it through and the sentence that follows as well.
13 A. "On the same day at around 5.30 the reservist entered the hangar
14 once again and he indicated by blowing a whistle that the most brutal
15 physical abuse and mistreatment should start."
16 Q. And the next phrase, please.
17 A. "Before the start of this abuse, Goran Ivankovic came along and
18 separated me from the rest."
19 Q. Thank you. Do you remember stating this?
20 A. Yes. But it wasn't at 5.30; it was at 3.30. I'm not the only one
21 saying that. If you have any other witnesses from Ovcara -- I will tell
22 you, as we were leaving Ovcara it was getting a little bit darker and a
23 car with the headlights on was driving in the opposite direction. Do you
24 agree that there may have been a mistake in the note-taking or the
25 translation or whatever?
1 Q. Certainly. So what you are arguing about is the time and not the
2 content? You are saying that it's 3.30?
3 A. Yes, 3.30.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 MR. MOORE: I'm sorry, just before the matter proceeds, I've got
6 the document. I don't accuse my learned friend of misquoting in any way
7 at all. But as far as I can see, from a typed copy there is no signature
8 from Mr. Berghofer, indicating that this is his statement. It is a
9 report. Is that right or not? Because before my learned friend tries to
10 tie down the witness, surely in fairness he should be asked whether he saw
11 the contents of this statement, whether he agreed the statement, and
12 whether in actual fact it's accurate and accords with his recollection.
13 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it is precisely for this
14 reason that at the start of my cross-examination I talked to the witness
15 about all the statements or the documents that he had signed and that
16 other people had signed on the basis of what he had said, and it was all
17 in his presence. I have no intention of misleading or confusing the
18 witness in any way. I've shown all these statements to him at the very
19 start of my cross-examination.
20 MR. MOORE: Well, all I'm saying, quite simply, is if it is
21 Mr. Berghofer's statement, could my learned friend please refer me to
22 where the signature is supposed to be, because I've looked at both the
23 typed copy and the original and I can't find any signature whatsoever.
24 Now, I don't deny my learned friend can cross-examine, but he has to have
25 a correct basis for it.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Is it not the effect of the earlier evidence,
2 Mr. Vasic, that this may have been somebody's compilation from what was
3 said rather than an actual statement of this witness?
4 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I didn't tell the witness
5 that this was his statement. I just said that it was an official report
6 from the MUP employee that he had talked to, and this record has been made
7 on the basis of that interview, and I don't suppose the witness is
8 confused in any way.
9 JUDGE PARKER: I think you shouldn't rely on the witness
10 remembering back to your questions before the break on that, just so that
11 this is clear that this is not an actual signed statement of the witness,
12 and then your questioning can proceed.
13 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Q. Mr. Berghofer, we'll have to dwell on this statement a little bit
16 Is this statement that I asked you about -- or rather, this
17 official record, what Ivan Dodaj [as interpreted], a MUP employee, wrote
18 down after your account of the events following his official meeting with
20 A. Ivan Dodaj may well be his name, but I'm telling you: You know
21 that as early as the 20th of November at 4.00, it is already dark and I
22 stressed in all my statements -- let's forget about this Dodaj. I really
23 have no idea who he is. But I never made this mistake because otherwise
24 it would have been at night-time that we had left Ovcara. We left when
25 there was still day-light, and darkness was beginning to fall and another
1 car was driving from the opposite direction and the lights were already
2 on. And I said over and over again that we spent about two hours at
4 Q. Thank you, Mr. Berghofer. All I was asking you about was whether
5 you did indeed talk to this person and whether this text that you did not
6 sign, you recognise your own words. Maybe he made a mistake about the
7 time. What I want to know is whether you remember the fact that you gave
8 a statement to this official at the time when he indicates this in his
10 A. Mr. Vasic, what follows is incorrect as well, because some Dodaj
11 can't go misrepresenting my memory of the events and about the beatings,
12 et cetera. It is not correct. It just does not tally with the way these
13 events actually took place. First of all, there was these horrible
14 beatings. People were being massacred, and then Ivankovic came along
15 after that, Goran Ivankovic. Let me just stress once again: Bulidza was
16 not there at the time, the guy from the municipality, the president,
17 Dokmanovic, was not there at the time.
18 Q. Thank you, sir. All I'm interested in is one thing: Did you have
19 this interview with this MUP employee and did he record your words
20 wrongly? I would just like to know whether you did talk to him, but
21 obviously you didn't sign the statement, and that's it.
22 A. Mr. Vasic, this was on the 1st of June, 1992. Some guys came
23 along to Hotel Plitvice -- but believe me, I really don't remember this.
24 And also you must believe me that I can't go wrong on that. Such horrific
25 events remain etched in your mind forever, and I do remember that quite
2 Q. Thank you. I'm not going to dwell on this document any longer.
3 Can you tell me: When were you taken out of the hangar, at what
4 time approximately?
5 A. At around 3.30, about 20 minutes -- 25 minutes that we spent
6 waiting outside, because as far as I can remember, and I have a vague
7 memory of this, somebody else was supposed to come. My former wife's
8 cousin was supposed to come with us, but he didn't want to because of his
9 son. You see, both Medjesi men, the father and the son, and I didn't put
10 their names on the list as victims at Ovcara. I couldn't remember them at
11 first, but they were there as well.
12 Q. Can you tell me: When you were taken out of the hangar, were
13 there any other people there? Were you the last one to be taken out of
14 the hanger or did anyone else follow?
15 A. You mean after this group of people, five or six of us?
16 Q. I mean within this group.
17 A. No, I didn't see anyone. Those of us who were taken out, I keep
18 remembering these names. I've been remembering them for the past 15
19 years, and I keep saying the same thing for the past 15 years.
20 Q. You didn't understand my question.
21 A. Tell me again.
22 Q. You said that the group of you, five to six people, were standing
23 in the place that you indicated. What I'm interested in is whether you
24 were let out of the hangar at the same time or one by one?
25 A. At the same time.
1 Q. It is quite clear now. Thank you.
2 [Defence counsel confer]
3 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 Q. If I were to tell you that a witness whom we have heard from in
5 connection with these beatings accompanied by the reservists' whistles had
6 said that the group that he was standing with outside - and you were
7 within that group as well - did not witness the beatings but had only
8 heard that and had seen people perpetrating the beatings coming in and
9 out, would you still stand by your previous statement?
10 A. Mr. Vasic, once I'd been beaten up, there were tears coming out of
11 my eyes. My knees were trembling. I was bleeding, and at one point I
12 stumbled and I let the blood fall on to the ground because I didn't want
13 any stains to remain on my clothes because I knew I would be wearing the
14 same clothes the next day. And I don't know what witness could have said
15 that, but maybe he was deaf and blind and he might have not seen it.
16 Q. Thank you. I would just like to refer to the page 3278 in the
17 transcript and 3347. Thank you.
18 And if I were to tell you that the witness we have heard from here
19 said that this group which set out for Vukovar left at night-time at
20 around 6.00, would you still claim that you left earlier?
21 A. 6.00 means total darkness. And let me just stress once again that
22 it was sunset -- well, Mr. Vasic, it might have been a quarter past 4.00
23 or a 20 past 4.00, and as soon as we got to Velepromet, it was dark.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it's on pages 3316
1 and 3317 of the transcript.
2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Berghofer. Now I have another question. When you
3 were within the hangar and outside the hangar, you saw no JNA officers
4 there. You've already said that.
5 A. I don't know whether I've already said that. I did not see any
6 officers, but I saw young soldiers. And, Mr. Vasic, you can't see
7 everything because there was a huge crowd.
8 Q. Thank you. Also in the course of your stay at Ovcara you didn't
9 see any tractors, either within the hangar or near the hangar?
10 A. You keep saying: Is that right? Is that right? You're going
11 really fast. There were some machines to the right. I know that the
12 light wasn't very good. We even had electricity, you know, but the light
13 bulb wasn't very good, so it was pretty dark in the hangar.
14 Q. Do you remember whether when you gave evidence before the court in
15 Belgrade, do you remember whether you were asked about the presence of a
16 tractor and you said that you didn't see any? Do you remember that?
17 A. Mr. Vasic, may I tell you something about these transcripts from
19 Q. Of course.
20 A. I said that we bought an ox from a Serb in Vukovar, and what it
21 read in the transcript was that they bought a plane. You can read it in
22 the transcript. It says so on page 6. Yeah, there was something. It
23 could have been a bulldozer or something, but I'm not sure. There was
24 something up but I can't remember what it was.
25 Q. Thank you. That's the answer. I'm not trying to force you to
1 tell me something that you don't remember. Thank you.
2 Can you tell me: As you were standing in front of the hangar with
3 these other people for 20 or 25 minutes, did you see if any other
4 prisoners were taken out of the hangar?
5 A. What did you say? 20, 25 minutes or what -- you mean when we were
6 taken out?
7 Q. When you were taken out, as you were standing in front of the
8 hangar, did you see if any other prisoners were taken out of the hangar
9 during that time?
10 A. I could see our group and the Medjesi man, but he returned, he
11 didn't want to come with us because his son was left behind, as far as I
12 can remember.
13 Q. Thank you. Whilst you were standing outside, did you see any
14 buses arrive at the hangar?
15 A. I do not remember, Mr. Vasic. I think not, and -- I think not
16 80 per cent, but mostly I don't remember, in fact.
17 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me whether you remember how long it took
18 you to get from Ovcara to Velepromet and then Modateks, if you can?
19 A. Yes, I can. Some 15 minutes it would have been normally, but in
20 this way it took us about 25 minutes. The drive was slow because we
21 couldn't all fit into the van properly, so we were sitting one on top of
22 the other, and Cakalic was sitting next to the driver in the front seat.
23 Q. Do you remember who was driving the van?
24 A. I don't, Mr. Vasic. But I know that Goran Ivankovic was present.
25 As to whether he was driving or not, I really don't know.
1 Q. Thank you. You mentioned you saw Tomislav Pap and you said he was
2 the warehouse keeper at the hospital with Dr. Vesna Bosanac. What would
3 you say if I were to tell you that Mrs. Vesna Bosanac indicated that he
4 was a soldier when she compiled her own list? Would that be possible?
5 A. It is up to Dr. Bosanac because she's more intelligent and she
6 probably knows better than I do.
7 Q. Thank you. That's Exhibit 39.
8 May I just come back to this hangar at Ovcara for a moment.
9 Replying to my learned friend's question, you said that the people were
10 beaten up as they got off the bus. What I'd like to know is whether you
11 saw whether everybody else was beaten up once you were in the hangar or do
12 you only assume that?
13 A. I can't guarantee that every single man was beaten up, but that
14 people were being beaten up, and especially the ones at the end of the
15 circle because they were coming in and looking at the crowd because they
16 always had it in for someone, if you see what I mean. They felt hatred
17 for someone and they wanted to hurt them.
18 Q. So some people were particularly picked on?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Do you know why, because of their participation in some crime or
21 because of some former personal relations or problems?
22 A. Mr. Vasic, I'm in no position to reply to that. Some -- most of
23 them were actually young -- younger than me, 30 years younger than me,
24 so ...
25 Q. Thank you. And let me conclude on Ovcara, and I'd like to move on
1 to when you were taken to Sremska Mitrovica and my colleague will deal
2 with the other matters.
3 Can you tell me: When you arrived at Sremska Mitrovica, were you
4 beaten up and did you have to run the gauntlet there as well as the same
5 way at Ovcara?
6 A. Mr. Vasic, I've been here for five days now, and I've always been
7 asked: How is it going, Mr. Berghofer? And I always said: Very good,
8 very well. But after my testimony yesterday, I had a sleepless night and
9 I probably will have one tomorrow [as interpreted] as well, because this
10 is really painful. These are painful memories and -- but I'm still
11 finding it in myself. I'm still trying to summon up the strength to tell
12 you: You didn't know where it was worse, where it was more horrific, at
13 Ovcara, or in Mitrovica. And I'm very pleased, Mr. Vasic, that you've
14 asked me a question about Mitrovica.
15 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Berghofer.
16 A. Do you want me to go on?
17 Q. I asked you about the gauntlet. Do you remember that?
18 A. Yes. I remember that very well indeed. You know, Mr. Vasic, it's
19 not the sort of thing you can ever forget. There was a gauntlet on either
20 side. We passed through it and were beaten in the process. The late
21 Zeljko Bujan [phoen] dropped one of his shoes, so he went back to get it,
22 and hen he was beaten again.
23 Q. Mr. Berghofer, I have some specific questions about this.
24 A. Please go ahead.
25 Q. I'm trying to finish my cross-examination by the end of the day,
1 if I can. I'm really doing my best, but I do have several questions about
3 You told us how it was over there. Did you give any statements
4 there to any security officers, military security officers, while you were
5 at Mitrovica?
6 A. Mr. Vasic, not as far as I remember, although a man called Soljic
7 was killed right next to me. I'm really sorry that you didn't allow me to
8 go on about that so I can tell that story, too.
9 Q. You have my sincerest apologies, Mr. Berghofer, it's just that I'm
10 running out of time here.
11 A. I understand. Please go ahead.
12 Q. You weren't interviewed and you provided no statements throughout
13 your time there, right?
14 A. I just signed a petition. There was some lads who were on their
15 way to see President Tudjman so that he could have us released.
16 Q. Thank you. During your time at Sremska Mitrovica, did you see any
17 people from Vukovar's TO, people you knew from Vukovar? Did any of those
18 come to Sremska Mitrovica at any point in time?
19 A. Sure they did, Mr. Vasic. For example, Gani Jakaj [phoen], a
20 local baker and friend of mine, Ljubo Pribudic, a neighbour of mine.
21 Q. What were they doing there?
22 A. At Mitrovica, you mean?
23 Q. Yes.
24 A. Well, nothing much. They were prisoners there, right?
25 Q. No, no, no. What I'm asking you about is members of the Serbian
1 TO from Vukovar. Did any of those people ever come to Mitrovica?
2 A. Oh, I'm sorry, Mr. Vasic. I don't think I understood you the
3 first time around. Well, you see, there was a curtain and behind the
4 curtain there was Petar Rukalo [phoen], he was hiding there. I think his
5 mother's maiden name was Ikac. He had taken cover behind that curtain.
6 And then there was this man called Dzoga Jovanovic, a drummer, and the
7 officer was asking me questions. I had to give my father's name,
8 Baltazar. He smiled and he said: One of those cartoon characters, right?
9 And I said: No, he's slightly bit older. He asked me about my nickname,
10 and I said: Beli. I was a good-natured person, so I was handing out
11 lighters, cigarette lighters, to all sorts of people from the hospital.
12 And I faired pretty well on that day, I can say that, I think. Yet there
13 were people who were hiding behind the curtain.
14 And on one occasion, young Rodic turned up in uniform. He was a
15 reserve captain. He lives three houses down the street from me, but he
16 did not even notice me. Also, if you could help me out with this,
17 Sokocanin [phoen], his best man, the warehouse man who got away. Can you
18 give me a hand with that?
19 Q. Goran Hadzic, you mean?
20 A. Yes, thank you so much for helping me out. Goran Hadzic came
21 once, and he said -- it was stinking so badly inside because there were
22 154 of us in a single room and nobody could lie down on the floor. We
23 were packed like sardines standing up. That's all I remember.
24 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Berghofer. I just have one question
25 left, and I need to go back to something.
1 You said you were being questioned by an officer, right? My
2 question was: Did you give any statements or anything? So who was this
3 officer asking you questions?
4 A. I really don't know. I was questioned on three different
5 occasions, one of which was particularly dreadful. I have a strong voice,
6 but when he spoke up the whole room was shaking. That's how loud he was
8 Q. Did any of them ever introduce themselves, told you their names?
9 A. No one ever, Mr. Vasic.
10 Q. What I want to know is after these -- the interrogations conducted
11 by these officers, did you sign any statements or did they perhaps compile
12 official notes of some sort, a record?
13 A. I don't remember signing the last one I told you about. But guess
14 what he asked me: How many Serbs were killed in your cellar? That was a
15 question he asked me. And I replied: Can you please repeat that
16 question? And he said: How many Serbs were killed in your cellar? And I
17 said: Sir, thank you very much. To my great fortunate, none at all. And
18 he said: I didn't say you necessarily, but who did?
19 Mr. Vasic, at this point he told me: We have other ways of
20 interrogating people. You know that? At this point, I was nearly
21 fainting with fear, but the man didn't even touch me, as opposed to the
22 one previously at Mitrovica.
23 Q. Thank you, Mr. Berghofer.
24 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it seems that time is up
25 now. I just have one subject to cover. I think I won't take more than 10
1 or 15 minutes at the very most.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Vasic.
3 Well, we've reached the time when we must adjourn today. We will
4 resume tomorrow at 9.00 in the morning, and hopefully we will finish
5 Mr. Berghofer's evidence in the course of tomorrow.
6 We will now adjourn.
7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.17 p.m.,
8 to be reconvened on Friday, the 3rd day of
9 March, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.