Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6932

1 Friday, 31 March 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning. Doctor, may I remind you of the

7 affirmation you made, which still applies.

8 Mr. Vasic.

9 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Good morning.

10 Good morning to all.


12 Cross-examination by Mr. Vasic:

13 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Schou. My name is Miroslav

14 Vasic, attorney-at-law. I am about to start cross-examining you. Bearing

15 in mind the Trial Chamber's instructions, I will be asking no questions in

16 relation to the 18th, 19th or 20th of November, at least part of the 20th.

17 My other learned friends will be dealing with those. I will be asking

18 some other important questions.

19 I hope that with the witness's assistance, we shall meet your

20 expectations, Your Honours.

21 Yesterday you told us you completed military academy and after

22 that medical school, right?

23 A. That's right.

24 Q. In actual fact, you never ceased to be a soldier; you became a

25 reserve officer of the Danish army and then you started practicing

Page 6933

1 medicine. Would that seem to be correct?

2 A. That's correct.

3 Q. Would you please be so kind as to say which specific military

4 schools you completed and when you became a specialist in all the fields

5 that you told us about yesterday?

6 A. I went to a military school where I became a officer in reserve,

7 and it was in the infantry. In the infantry, when I became an officer, I

8 was then connected to a battalion where I became an intelligence officer,

9 and went to two small schools, I think about one week each.

10 Q. Thank you very much. These schools you have mentioned now, they

11 had to do with your activity as an intelligence officer, I assume, didn't

12 they? Or was it at this point in time that you were given a post as a

13 reserve officer?

14 A. Can you explain the answer [sic]?

15 Q. Yes. There must be an error on the transcript on page 2, line 12.

16 I said you were then assigned to work as an intelligence officer. What I

17 want to know, whether those schools had to do with your activity as an

18 intelligence officer.

19 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't get the last part of

20 counsel's question.

21 THE WITNESS: The school was only two weeks for the education for

22 intelligence officer. And the school were -- where we had to learn about

23 all this, you can say Russian tanks and vehicles, flights, boats and how

24 they moved, how they normally arranged an attack, how they defend and all

25 this kind of thing.

Page 6934

1 Q. Thank you very much, sir. You said that in 1991 you were with a

2 group of Danish officers. And this group was given the task at -- or a

3 mission to work as European Community Monitors. What I want to know,

4 whether the rest of the Danish officers in that group were intelligence

5 officers, too, or did they have other specialised fields of work in terms

6 of their military duties?

7 A. We were all different kind of military people. There were men who

8 specialised in -- in mines, there were men who were specialised in tanks,

9 there were men who worked on airfield, and I think the rest of them were

10 normally infantry soldiers, or officers, of course.

11 Q. Thank you very much, sir. You, however, were the only member of

12 that group in permanent contact with the Danish foreign office. Would

13 that seem to be correct?

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. You were also in permanent contact with the Danish military

16 commander and in 1991 he was based in Split, Croatia, right?

17 A. I was in contact with the Danish military in Denmark. I was also

18 in contact with the -- the -- you can say the oldest officer of the Danish

19 team, who was based in Split. That's correct.

20 Q. Thank you for clarifying that for us, sir. Do you know what

21 precisely the mission was of the Danish military team in Split back in

22 1991; in other words, what was their task?

23 A. Their task were to monitoring the area of the coast. That's the

24 only thing I know about their task.

25 Q. Thank you. Were they too part of the European Community

Page 6935

1 Monitoring Mission or was this some sort of independent monitoring

2 mission?

3 A. They were a part of the European Community Monitoring Mission.

4 Q. Thank you, sir. Can you tell us what precisely the remit was of

5 the ECMM when you first arrived in the former Yugoslavia in 1991?

6 A. Is it when I arrived or when the first Danish officers arrived?

7 Q. I assume you might know about your own arrival and what the

8 situation was at that point in time. So that's what I was asking. What

9 were your tasks within the larger remit of the ECMM?

10 A. Our task was to do what the head of mission -- the head of mission

11 for the whole European monitoring mission, what he sent us to do, that was

12 our task. And we were -- we were there all -- even if we were officers,

13 we were all diplomats. We had diplomat card.

14 Q. Do you know what the task or the objective, if you like, was of

15 the ECMM as a whole in the former Yugoslavia in 1991 at the time you

16 joined?

17 A. I know that the task were to monitoring the -- monitoring how --

18 what can you say, all activity between the different part in the conflict

19 in Yugoslavia.

20 Q. I imagine that there was a humanitarian aspect to the monitoring,

21 that the objective was to keep the casualties down, or to keep any

22 casualties from occurring at all?

23 A. I don't remember that.

24 Q. Thank you very much. You told us yesterday that the task you were

25 assigned, before you had even left Denmark to join the ECMM, was to gather

Page 6936

1 information on the military equipment of the JNA units, record all the

2 numbers and features of JNA equipment, as well as list any equipment that

3 you knew certain individual units of the JNA to be in possession of.

4 Would that seem to be correct?

5 A. That is not correct. We were told to watch all the equipment,

6 the -- the army had, and the army, that's also of the Croatian army,

7 because they have also cars we did not know, or tanks we did not know. It

8 was the whole area we had to watch.

9 Q. Yes, but is it not correct that you observed both equipment and

10 units in the area?

11 A. We observed only equipment, not unit, because we were not -- we

12 could not see any -- of course we could see the units, but we did not have

13 any maps where they are situated at. We cannot say anything about them.

14 We only think about the -- the equipment they -- they have.

15 Q. This assignment to gather intelligence on military equipment was

16 not given you by your superior command at Split. It was the Danish

17 intelligence service that tasked you with this. Is that correct?

18 A. That's correct.

19 Q. You knew at the time that any information you collected was bound

20 to be classified information, military secrets, as they say, especially

21 since there was an imminent danger of war in the area. You must have been

22 aware of that, sir, weren't you?

23 A. I was aware on that.

24 Q. You also must have known that by collecting information that was

25 classified and submitted -- and submitting such information to the

Page 6937

1 intelligence service of your own country, you were guilty of the crime of

2 espionage, which was defined as a crime under the existing laws in the

3 former Yugoslavia and required the maximum punishment. Did you not know

4 that?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Thank you for your answer. There's something in the

7 interpretation on page 5, line 24. I was asking if the witness was aware

8 of the fact that he would thereby have been committing the crime of

9 espionage. But we can agree that it was your mission and that you had no

10 choice but to try and complete it, right?

11 A. It was not -- it was not the mission itself. The mission was to

12 help the head of mission, of European Monitor Mission, with all their

13 jobs. It was our mission. And then of course when we saw some of these

14 cars we -- we look at them and sometimes took picture of them, yes.

15 Q. If I understand you correctly, you did all these things under the

16 auspices of the ECMM and you enjoyed a degree of immunity, as it were,

17 based on the fact that this mission was accepted by all the parties and

18 all the players in the former Yugoslavia at the time, right?

19 A. That's correct.

20 Q. Thank you. How exactly did you go about submitting any

21 information collected to the intelligence service of the Danish army, and

22 were the reports encrypted or open?

23 A. I did not understand the question.

24 Q. I'll repeat. How exactly did you go about submitting such

25 information to such military intelligence information to the intelligence

Page 6938

1 service of the Danish army, and were the reports encrypted or unprotected,

2 if you like?

3 A. There were no report back to the -- back to Denmark at this time.

4 We only saw some cars and took some pictures of them and took them with us

5 back, so when we work at home in Denmark, we could show that this was

6 a T-72 when it could do like this. There were no crypted script or taking

7 pictures and send them back. We just have our own pictures, and it was

8 our own pictures.

9 Q. Thank you. Do you know if other members of the regional centre,

10 the ECMM regional centre, members of the ECMM regional centre in Zagreb

11 had the same sort of task involving intelligence activity or spying, if

12 you like, or were you the only one who was given a task of that nature?

13 A. I do not know anything about the other countries' tasks.

14 Q. Can you tell us within the mandate of the ECMM in the former

15 Yugoslavia, were members of the mission allowed to pursue other work for

16 their own country's military intelligence services at the expense of any

17 other duties that they may have had?

18 A. I don't know.

19 Q. Would this not happen contrary to the spirit of the ECMM, such as

20 you have described it for us?

21 A. I don't know.

22 Q. Can you tell me whether the ECMM head in Zagreb was familiar with

23 your intelligence activity while you were a member of the mission?

24 A. I don't think so.

25 Q. Thank you. We'll move on to a different topic now. I want to

Page 6939

1 know about the first time you arrived in the Vukovar area on the 19th of

2 October, 1991. What exactly, verbatim, if you like, was the task you were

3 given when you were first sent to the Vukovar area on the 19th of October?

4 A. My task were to go with this convoy and to observe the, you can

5 say, status of the hospital and to see how the evacuation were working

6 out.

7 Q. Thank you. You went there with other team members, but another

8 person accompanying you was Major Mihajlovic, your JNA liaison officer,

9 and he stayed with you throughout, didn't he?

10 A. We had a liaison -- [microphone not activated]. We had a liaison

11 officer, but I did not know his name.

12 Q. Thank you. Did he stay with you throughout the duration of your

13 mission on the 19th of October, 1991?

14 A. To my opinion, he do. Yes, he was with the convoy the whole way.

15 Q. Thank you. Let me ask you something about the composition of your

16 convoy. Did it contain any long trucks?

17 A. I think there were one long trucks and some small trucks.

18 Q. Was the composition of the convoy in keeping with the agreement

19 that had been reached with the warring parties, or did the convoy also

20 comprise a number of vehicles not previously agreed on? Do you know that,

21 sir?

22 A. I don't know anything about that.

23 Q. Thank you. Was medical equipment being transported on that convoy

24 as well as medicines for the hospital?

25 A. I don't know.

Page 6940

1 Q. Do you really know what the vehicles on that convoy contained, or

2 what they were carrying?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Thank you. While testifying in chief, you explained how you

5 reached the Bogdanovci area along an agreed route. You also explained how

6 the local Croat commander at Bogdanovci derailed you, as it were, and sent

7 you off on a farm track claiming that the surrounding area was

8 booby-trapped. What I want to know is: Did you speak to this commander

9 and ask him to remove these mines that were allegedly there?

10 A. I did not speak to him, and I did not know if our chief of the --

11 chief of this mission of his -- if he speak to the commander, I did not

12 know it.

13 Q. Thank you. Did you know at the time that the dirt track that you

14 were forced to use was actually being used by the Croatian forces to bring

15 in weapons and manpower as well as equipment into Vukovar, all the way up

16 until mid-November 1991?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Thank you. What about this change of route that you took from

19 Bogdanovci to Vukovar, is this something that you informed the ECMM

20 headquarters in Zagreb about?

21 A. I don't know if the chief of the convoy contact Zagreb, but I know

22 at that time we have very difficult with communication out.

23 Q. Would that have been a proper procedure, so to speak? Whenever

24 your team had to do something that strayed from your initial remit, you

25 would have had to inform your headquarters about this, would you not?

Page 6941

1 A. I think so, but it's up to the chief of this mission.

2 Q. Thank you. You explained how you reached the hospital on the

3 19th of October. You said that you saw the International Red Cross sign

4 displayed on the roof of the hospital, didn't you?

5 A. That's correct.

6 Q. You remember that photograph from the set that was admitted

7 as 338. You showed us the exact spot on the roof displaying a white area,

8 but you said that the quality of the photograph was poor, and that was the

9 reason you couldn't actually see the red cross there, right?

10 A. There was an -- I saw a red cross on the roof.

11 Q. Thank you. What if I told you, sir, that we've had witnesses

12 testifying here who were hospital employees at the time, and they said

13 that there was no International Red Cross sign or symbol displayed on the

14 roof of the hospital's main building at all? Would you still claim that

15 you saw this Red Cross sign on the roof of the main hospital building with

16 your very own eyes, and this is in reference to the 19th of October, 1991?

17 A. Yes, I saw the red cross on the roof on the 19th of October.

18 Q. Thank you. You testified yesterday that you saw a Red Cross sign

19 in the hospital courtyard on top of a lawn. Yesterday was the first time

20 you ever talked about this. You never previously mentioned this in any of

21 your statements to the OTP in 1995 or in your testimony before this

22 Honourable Tribunal in a different case.

23 A. Can you explain --

24 MR. MOORE: I'm sorry, I don't quite understand that. It may be

25 my error. The witness yesterday, from my recollection, said that the

Page 6942

1 photographs that he had taken were a combination of November and October.

2 Two of the photographs were October, I don't remember the Red Cross

3 photograph being an October photograph, I remember it being a November

4 photograph. I'm trying to find that.

5 In relation to the question that is being put by my learned

6 friend, saying that he -- that he has not mentioned this fact, at the end

7 of the statement on page 7 of 9 and 8 of 9, there are references to

8 photographs that were taken by this witness, and while I haven't had an

9 opportunity of quickly checking the references, my understanding was that

10 JAS 9 specifically says "20th of November, showing the side of Vukovar

11 Hospital and the red cross on the roof."

12 So there is specific reference to it in the statement. If that's

13 the point.

14 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this photograph that my

15 learned friend has just referred to, as far as I can tell from the witness

16 statement, this was taken in November, JAS 9. But my question was not in

17 relation to the photograph of the hospital roof. I was asking about the

18 Red Cross sign that he mentioned seeing in the courtyard on a lawn. I

19 think he said that for the very first time yesterday. I wasn't asking

20 about the ...

21 JUDGE PARKER: Doctor, can you tell us whether you remember

22 whether you have previously mentioned a Red Cross sign on the lawn of the

23 hospital in any statement?

24 THE WITNESS: I can't remember.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

Page 6943

1 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 Q. You testified in chief yesterday, you said -- and you said that in

3 1991, during your time at the hospital, you observed no military presence

4 inside the hospital, but only around the hospital, within the compound.

5 Do you perhaps remember seeing individual officers of the Croatian armed

6 forces carrying pistols inside the hospital as well as members of the

7 Crisis Staff, the Vukovar defence Crisis Staff, people who perhaps you met

8 at the time?

9 A. I saw no person with weapon inside the hospital. I was guiding

10 around in the hospital with a doctor from the hospital staff. And what

11 the chief of this mission saw and what else happened in the hospital, I

12 did not know.

13 Q. Thank you, sir. When you testified in the Dokmanovic case on the

14 10th of February, 1998, did you not state as follows:

15 For the benefit of my learned friend and the Chamber, it's 1292 of

16 the transcript, paragraph 7 through 11. "[In English] ... inside hospital

17 anyone, even one?"

18 Answer: "Yes, I think we have negotiation, or talk with some of

19 the leaders, and they were pistols, yes, inside the hospital in the

20 basement."

21 [Interpretation] Do you remember that, sir?

22 A. No, I don't remember it. But if I said that at that time, I said

23 it.

24 Q. Thank you very much. You also testified in chief yesterday that

25 during your stay at the hospital on the 19th of October you heard mortar

Page 6944

1 fire near the hospital, the distance having been 30, 40, or perhaps 50

2 metres at the very most; is that correct?

3 A. That's correct.

4 Q. This was actually mortar fire by the Croatian forces, the Croatian

5 forces were opening fire from their mortars on JNA units. Would that not

6 seem to be correct?

7 A. That's correct.

8 Q. Thank you. Upon your return, did you include any information on

9 the fact that the Croatian forces were firing on the JNA from the hospital

10 compound in any of your reports?

11 A. Yes, I reported it to the -- to the chief of this convoy, and it's

12 also written in the paper from the chief to the head of mission.

13 Q. Thank you very much. You said yesterday that on your mission at

14 the hospital on the 19th of October you were not placed in charge of the

15 patients there, you were just monitors, and the patients were in the care

16 of the Croatian side and Medecins sans Frontieres. Would that seem to be

17 a fair assessment of what you said, sir?

18 A. That's correct.

19 Q. Thank you. You explained how you left Vukovar by the same route

20 that you had taken to get there in the first place. What I want to know

21 is who controlled the first stretch, as it were, of that village road on

22 your way back to Bogdanovci. That's when the Croatian forces were

23 accompanying you, right?

24 A. I do not know who controlled the first street.

25 Q. Thank you. You mean the village road? I was asking about the

Page 6945

1 village road, not about a street.

2 A. Then I do not understand the answer -- the question, I'm sorry.

3 Q. I will repeat the question, thank you. You said that the convoy

4 left Vukovar and took the same road that you had previously taken to get

5 to Vukovar, the village road that the local commander of the Croatian

6 forces from Bogdanovci had told you to use, and you had taken this road to

7 get to Vukovar. What I want to know is: Under whose control was the

8 initial stretch of that village road that led from Vukovar back to

9 Bogdanovci?

10 A. I only know that inside Vukovar, the road there, there were

11 Croatian forces. But when we went to this small farmer road, I'm not sure

12 that there were any people there at all.

13 Q. Thank you. You told us that at a certain point you were stopped

14 because you came across a JNA tank. And that the vehicle with the

15 Croatian soldiers at the head of the column turned into a cornfield and

16 you said that you abandoned your vehicle. Why did you jump out of the

17 vehicle? Were you not afraid that you would only raise suspicions as to

18 who you were and what you were doing there? Wouldn't it have been better

19 for you to have stayed in the vehicle [realtime transcript read in error

20 "Vukovar"]?

21 A. I react as a soldier. If a tank is pointing at me, I want to get

22 out of that car.

23 Q. Thank you. And correction for the transcript. Line 16 I said

24 wouldn't it have been better for you to have stayed in the car, not in

25 Vukovar.

Page 6946

1 How far was the tank from you when you abandoned your vehicle?

2 A. About hundred metre.

3 Q. Was that the first tank that you saw during your mission in the

4 area in such close proximity?

5 A. No. We saw tanks in those city we passed when we were -- when we

6 are -- go to Vukovar. We saw tanks in every city. As I told yesterday,

7 we passed no-man's land three times, I think, and at each side we saw

8 tanks.

9 Q. Did the tank exhibit any sort of aggression or could you see

10 whether they really intended to open fire by anything they may have done?

11 A. I think it was a kind of aggression that the -- the tank move its

12 cannon in front -- to our car. That, I think, because we have no weapon,

13 we were in a white car with a European community on, and after the car

14 there was ambulance with red cross. So in that -- I think it was an

15 aggression to point it at us.

16 Q. What about the signs on your vehicles and the vehicle behind you?

17 Weren't those safe guarantees that nothing would happen and that it was

18 somewhat unrealistic of you to expect an attack as you were there as part

19 of a humanitarian mission?

20 A. As I said before, we just jump out because we were soldiers. We

21 were all four soldiers in the car and in that case we jump out. I think

22 if we were civilian we would not jump out.

23 Q. I understood. Thank you. You said that after that you were taken

24 to an elevation. Was that actually the JNA front line, opposed to the

25 Croatian forces?

Page 6947

1 A. Yes, I think it was the front line of the JNA forces. Because at

2 that hill we also saw tanks and ordinary JNA soldiers cooking and

3 something like that, yes.

4 Q. And when you continued, when you left the elevation and went back

5 to the main route, back to the agreed route, you said that perhaps after

6 one or two kilometres the fourth vehicle in the column struck a mine;

7 isn't that so?

8 A. That's correct.

9 Q. The vehicle that you were in was in front of that vehicle; that

10 is, the vehicle that struck a mine?

11 A. Yes, I was in the front car and it was the truck and it was

12 number four in the -- in this that hit the mine.

13 Q. You said that you were all very alert, observing the road ahead,

14 trying to spot any mines?

15 A. That's correct.

16 Q. That was an asphalt road, wasn't it?

17 A. It was an asphalt road, but it was an asphalt road that had been

18 used by forces, so there was a lot of dirt on the -- on the -- this road.

19 Q. Therefore, looking out on to the road, you spotted no mines until

20 the moment when that particular truck hit that mine; isn't that correct?

21 A. That's correct.

22 Q. Am I mistaken if I conclude that the mine that the truck struck

23 wasn't actually on the road itself prior to the column passing, but rather

24 that it was pushed under it and then the truck struck it?

25 A. I don't know.

Page 6948

1 Q. I'm asking you this as a soldier. I believe you have certain

2 military education and training for an infantry officer; isn't that

3 correct?

4 A. That's correct.

5 Q. That's why I'm asking you the following: If there is an asphalt

6 road and you can't see a mine, and yet you were in the vehicle in front of

7 the vehicle that struck the mine, can you offer any explanation as to how

8 that mine got there, apart from it being pushed, so to speak, under that

9 vehicle?

10 A. I cannot say it -- it was pushed. I can only say that there was a

11 mine on the road. How it came there, I did not know. When we went out,

12 we saw mines on the road on some of these dirty things.

13 Q. Would it be true if I said that you saw other mines after that

14 truck had been struck, and at that time you saw mines that were ahead of

15 you and not behind you?

16 A. I think it was between the number one and number two car we saw a

17 mine in -- in the side of the road. Just -- just where the asphalt is

18 stopped, and then in the side there, there was a mine.

19 Q. And you moved in the middle of the road; is that so?

20 A. That's correct. That the first car move in the middle of the

21 road.

22 Q. As for the other vehicles, I believe they followed in a column

23 using the same track, being the safest way to move?

24 A. I hope they do so.

25 Q. Thank you. Another question as regards the convoy. Do you know

Page 6949

1 where this convoy with the wounded was supposed to go to and where it

2 finally ended? Was its destination Zagreb?

3 A. I only know the destination Vinkovci, I think.

4 Q. Thank you. When you were stopped at the elevation prior to going

5 back to the asphalt road to Bogdanovci, do you remember whether a soldier

6 of the JNA from one of the vehicles on the convoy asked for help, he

7 wanted to be rescued, I believe his name was Ivan Zivkovic, because he was

8 one of the wounded at the hospital. He was on the convoy, and the

9 intention only could have been for him to be sent to Zagreb or to

10 Vinkovci, as you say?

11 A. I am not aware of this. This is the first time I've heard it.

12 Q. I asked you about that because the fact that he was crying for

13 help is quite telling, because it points to the fact that there was no

14 search of the vehicles at the elevation, as you suggested. Are you sure

15 that there was a search conducted there indeed, or whether the search

16 occurred at Marinci and when you -- that is when you were coming in, and

17 when you were going out the search took place at Petrovci?

18 A. I can't remember.

19 Q. Yesterday in your testimony in chief you stated, or rather you

20 mentioned the convoy that departed from Vukovar on the 20th of November

21 towards Sremska Mitrovica. I won't ask you about the initial stages of

22 the travel; that's up to my colleagues to ask you about that.

23 But I'm interested in the following: Would you agree with me if I

24 told you that those seriously ill from the Vukovar Hospital were put on

25 ambulances on the 20th of November, and that those who were lightly

Page 6950

1 wounded were put on buses; and do you remember any ECMM report mentioning

2 the figures of those seriously wounded put on ambulances and those of

3 lightly wounded put on the buses? And I believe there should also be a

4 number of the medical staff mentioned there of those who were taken to

5 Sremska Mitrovica. Are you familiar with that?

6 MR. MOORE: I'm sorry, that's two questions in one.


8 MR. MOORE: I perhaps am pessimistic. Could I ask for them

9 perhaps to be dealt with individually?

10 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Certainly, thank you. I can split up

11 the question.

12 Q. Sir, are you familiar with the fact that in one of the reports of

13 the ECMM the fact is mentioned that 84 seriously injured were put on

14 ambulances and those slightly injured were put on the buses together with

15 the medical staff on the 20th of November, 1991 to be transported from the

16 Vukovar Hospital to Sremska Mitrovica?

17 MR. MOORE: Well, I'm sorry, that wasn't the first question. It's

18 changed its form. Because the first question related to the question

19 where it says: "If I told you that those seriously ill from the Vukovar

20 Hospital were put on ambulances on the 20th." And the inference is quite

21 clearly that there has been an element of care for those, namely all of

22 them, to be put on ambulances.

23 So I would ask my learned friend if in actual fact that is what he

24 is suggesting, or whether it is a report that deals with numbers. And if

25 it is a report, could the witness see the report?

Page 6951

1 [Defence counsel confer]

2 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Could we please have 321 on the

3 screen, page 3, the number being 0038-1419.

4 Q. Sir, if you have the tabs before you, that's tab 25. In English,

5 that's also page 3.

6 Sir, could you please look under b, teams Belgrade/Sarajevo. Can

7 you find that?

8 A. I find it.

9 Q. There is the Roman numeral (iii) that reads: "[In English]

10 1430 p.m., the team reported that: 82 wounded had been loaded on to 15

11 ambulances; b, 263 walking winded had been loaded into 5 buses; c, the

12 convoy included 17 doctors, 6 nurses and 11 escort personnel."

13 [Interpretation] Would you agree with me that this is what the

14 report states?

15 MR. MOORE: I'm sorry, on this point, the way the question was put

16 was that there was reference to seriously wounded being put on ambulances,

17 the report. The report does not say that. And therefore it's an unfair

18 question. So if my learned friend is going to quote from a report, I

19 would be very grateful if he quoted it accurately.

20 If you look at the question on page --

21 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Moore.

22 MR. MOORE: Thank you.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Now, Doctor, you can see the report. The

24 subparagraph a. refers to 82 wounded and subparagraph b. to 263 walking

25 wounded. Are you able, from that report, or from your recollection, to

Page 6952

1 indicate whether the ambulances were used for serious wounded?

2 THE WITNESS: The ambulance were used for the first people that

3 were evacuated from the hospital, and some of them were not serious

4 wounded. And they just took them out of the hospital in a -- what do you

5 call it, you go, you go, you go, there were no sorting of kind of injury.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

7 Thank you, Mr. Vasic.

8 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. Sir, did you know that after the convoy departed on the 20th of

10 November --

11 THE WITNESS: [Previous translation continues] ... it's easier for

12 me when I can read it.

13 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. The transcript, you mean?

15 A. No, I have the English on the screen normally, so I can better

16 understand when I can hear and see something. If I have the English

17 here. I have it before, but now it's ...

18 I had the same on the both screen. Before this picture came up, I

19 had the -- some of the cases here, and I have your typing in English on

20 this one, so I can hear and read what they are -- what the question is.

21 JUDGE PARKER: You want the English transcript.

22 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

23 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I presume it is all right now.

24 Q. I have only two or three other questions.

25 Did you know that when the convoy left on the 20th of November

Page 6953

1 another 110 patients left at the hospital in Vukovar?

2 THE INTERPRETER: Were left, interpreter's correction.

3 THE WITNESS: I know that some other wounded, other wounded are

4 staying in the -- in the hospital and they were taken out the day after.

5 Yes, I know that.

6 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Did you know that a part of those wounded remained behind because

8 they were supposed to go to Serbia, and the other part, that is 52 of

9 them, had to wait for the 21st of November for the new ambulances to

10 arrive because there was not enough room for them?

11 A. I were only aware that they had to wait because there were not

12 ambulance enough.

13 Q. Thank you. Do you know what the ethnic make-up of those wounded

14 who remained at the hospital was? What ethnic group did they belong to?

15 Were they Serbs, Croats, Hungarians?

16 A. I don't know.

17 Q. Thank you. Just one more question. Did you know that -- that an

18 ECMM team spent the night between the 19th and the 20th of November in the

19 area of the Ovcara cooperative or farm taking care of the civilian convoy

20 that ended up there because the Croats wouldn't receive it on the highway

21 towards Vinkovci and that convoy, the next morning on the 20th of

22 November, moved towards Nustar and Vinkovci. Did you know whether one of

23 your teams was there during the night and the next morning when they set

24 off to Nustar?

25 A. No, I'm not aware of that.

Page 6954

1 Q. Thank you for your replies, sir.

2 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

3 questions for this witness.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Vasic.

5 Mr. Borovic.

6 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning.

7 Cross-examination by Mr. Borovic:

8 Q. My name is Borivoje Borovic, attorney-at-law.

9 The first question I have for you: Did you complete a military

10 college or military university, an academy, a full academy?

11 A. I don't know the terms you have here. But it was only a, you can

12 call it, small school for reserve officers. It was not the normal

13 military college where the -- the normal officers are going. It was

14 another place, and only for reserve officers.

15 Q. Thank you. After the two weeks of your intelligence training and

16 before you departed for Yugoslavia, did you learn what the officer ranks

17 within the JNA were at the time, and could you share them with us?

18 A. I did not learn anything before -- before I go to Yugoslavia. I

19 was -- the last three years before I went to Yugoslavia, I was just

20 working in civilian hospital, and I was called out two days before I had

21 arrived in Yugoslavia. And I was not volunteer, I was picked up.

22 Q. Thank you. When you reached the town the Vukovar for the first

23 time, were you able to distinguish between JNA ranks?

24 A. I think so, but only that I have learned some years ago before

25 that the ranks of the Soviet Union, rank of the officers. I did not know

Page 6955

1 the exact rank about it, if they have a different rank in Yugoslavia.

2 Q. Thank you. Speaking from this chair today, do you know whether

3 the ranks of the Soviet army were the same or different from those in

4 the JNA?

5 A. I do not know if they were different.

6 Q. Thank you. To conclude with this topic, one last question. Can

7 you tell me what the rank of colonel looks like, what the insignia were at

8 that time, or do you know it today?

9 A. At that time and today, I think a colonel had three big stars.

10 Not the biggest one, the biggest one is for general, but three big stars.

11 Bigger than the lieutenant.

12 Q. Thank you. Could you explain to the Chamber in relation to the

13 documents shown by Mr. Moore to you why did you sign them subsequently?

14 You said that since you brought them, one -- that was one of the reasons

15 why you signed them. Did you know that by signing subsequently you

16 seriously jeopardised the authenticity of the documents?

17 MR. MOORE: That's not right. That's a matter for the Judge to

18 assess. It's wrong to put it to the witness that way.

19 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] I can paraphrase.

20 Q. During your testimony in chief, you stated that you subsequently

21 signed the documents that you handed over to the OTP here; isn't that

22 correct?

23 A. That's correct that I signed the paper I give to this Court, yes.

24 Q. Thank you. Why did you sign each page of that document? After 15

25 years, what was your reason?

Page 6956

1 A. So the Court would know that this paper came from me. I had the

2 paper.

3 Q. Thank you. I will leave it up to the Chamber as to whether that

4 affects the authenticity of the documents that may be subsequently used in

5 some other proceedings, hence I will conclude with this topic.

6 My next question is this: In Hotel "I" in Zagreb, did you have

7 direct communication with the Vukovar Hospital via phone?

8 A. I have not. If anyone else had, I don't know.

9 Q. Thank you. On the 18th of November, 1991 did you know whether the

10 regular telephone lines between Zagreb and your mission and the Vukovar

11 Hospital was functioning?

12 A. I don't know.

13 Q. Thank you. When you set off for Vukovar in November, before you

14 departed did you know whether the Zagreb agreement in relation to Vukovar

15 had been signed? Did you have knowledge of that?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Thank you. In the previous two days you stated that you went via

18 Bogdanovci, and even a document was exhibited as regards that. Since you

19 used the roads that you've already explained, when one goes from

20 Bogdanovci to Vukovar, did you know whether the Croatian paramilitary

21 forces blocked access routes to Vukovar from that direction?

22 A. I don't know.

23 Q. Sir, let me remind you of the statement you gave to the OTP

24 investigators back in 1995.

25 Can the usher please help me distribute copies?

Page 6957

1 On page 3, paragraph 2 of that statement, the English reference is

2 page 3, paragraph 3. Could you please just follow? I'll read it out to

3 you. So if my reading is consistent, please confirm. "The only way we

4 were allowed to travel from there was through Bogdanovci. It was

5 impossible to use the shortest way, because Croats were afraid that if

6 they removed the road blocks for the sake of the convoys the JNA would

7 attempt to break through in those areas. From Bogdanovci on, we were

8 forced to take a dirt track, an unsurfaced road through a cornfield all

9 the way through to Lusac and Vukovar. We used the road recommended by the

10 Croats and owing to that we did not cross any Serbian check-points."

11 Was my reading correct, sir? Can you confirm that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Thank you. Now that I refreshed your memory by showing you this

14 statement, do you now remember that the Croats did have road blocks and

15 that the reason that you had to change your route was precisely what I

16 have just read out to you? Wouldn't that seem to be the case, sir?

17 A. We -- we were told that it was -- that this was the reason. I did

18 not saw it. I did not see any. But of course -- when the Croatian

19 forces, they said that they were afraid of this, yes.

20 Q. Thank you. As for paragraph 3, that's seems to indicate that you

21 were try to avoid all Serbian check-points. So my question to you is why?

22 It's the last sentence that I have just read out. Why were you trying to

23 avoid Serbian check-points?

24 A. We have just passed one Serbian check-point in the city before,

25 and now we have a Croatian point, and they could pass us through Vukovar

Page 6958

1 Hospital. So I think that the chief of this mission decided that it was

2 better to go this way. But -- it is his decision. I was not in the

3 charge of this one.

4 Q. Thank you, sir. Do you know if in October 1991 your column was

5 headed by a person named Branko Borkovic who was at the time the commander

6 of the so-called ZNG? Is this something you were familiar with, sir?

7 A. I was not aware of that.

8 Q. Thank you. You were asked by my learned friend, Mr. Vasic, a

9 while ago about that tank appearing and you jumped out of the vehicle, and

10 the reason you gave was all four of you were soldiers. Isn't that what

11 you said, sir?

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. Thank you very much. Were you at this time wearing military

14 uniforms or medical uniforms?

15 A. We all wear white clothes, different kind of white clothes. Every

16 country in the European Monitor Mission had their own white clothes, and

17 we had only white clothes on.

18 Q. Thank you. Can we then agree that at this point where you just

19 jumped out of the vehicle and you ran for cover, you were there in your

20 capacity as doctors, not as soldiers, given the clothes you were wearing

21 and the roles you were playing on that particular day?

22 A. We were there as EC monitor in white as we all -- we always were

23 dressed in white.

24 Q. Thank you. I think we understand each other.

25 Page 3, paragraph 1 of the statement that you have been given - in

Page 6959

1 the English this is page 3, paragraph 2 - you stated, and you can follow,

2 if you like, sir, just to check for consistency. There were paramilitary

3 forces, Serbian forces, irregulars, and some volunteers, and the third

4 group you described as Chetniks. I'm just paraphrasing, I'm not going

5 into any detail here. But you did describe the third distinct group that

6 you thought you could distinguish as Chetniks, didn't you?

7 A. I don't know what the name for them is, but we were told from the

8 Croats that they were Chetniks, as same as you -- you told us that the

9 other were Ustashas. And the Chetniks, they were not in a normal military

10 uniform. They wear, you can say, part clothes you can buy in store to

11 take on, who is -- look like military uniforms.

12 Q. Do you now know what the term means? What the term "Chetnik"

13 means?

14 A. No, I'm not still sure what this means.

15 Q. Thank you, sir. It wasn't me who told you that the other party

16 were Ustashas. I'm not prone to advise anyone to use that sort of a

17 term. But still let me ask you: Do you know how the term is used

18 today, "Ustashas"?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Thank you. You were in Vukovar, you observed and toured both

21 military and civilian facilities. Did you at any point in time learn that

22 Croat paramilitaries were keeping their military and medical equipment and

23 supplies in buildings such as the MUP, the municipality, the local

24 recruitment office, the Eltz Palace, or any other such buildings and

25 features? Did you have any information to indicate anything like that,

Page 6960

1 sir?

2 A. I will just correct you. I observed not military but only

3 civilian facility in Vukovar. I only went to the hospital. And -- and I

4 was not aware of the -- of course I could understand that in the town

5 there is fighting. There must be some area where there must be military

6 equipment, but we were not -- but I was not aware of where they were.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] And how about a break now? I think

9 that might be a good idea, since this seems to be the right time for it,

10 Your Honours.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Borovic. We will have a break now.

12 Could I indicate, especially for the benefit of Mr. Lukic, that at

13 the next break, because I have to meet some people, the break will

14 probably be 35 minutes, and we will be able to extend beyond quarter

15 to 2.00 to allow -- to make up for that lost time.

16 We will adjourn now and resume at 10 minutes to 11.00.

17 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

18 --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Borovic.

20 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. Sir, I think it is now certain that in the Dokmanovic case, in

22 your statement to the OTP and both when testifying in chief and being

23 cross-examined, that there was mortar fire from somewhere around the

24 hospital. That seems clear and perfectly certain now, isn't it?

25 A. That's correct.

Page 6961

1 Q. Thank you. It also follows from your statement that it was the

2 Croats opening mortar fire near the hospital. What I would like to ask

3 you now is: As a monitor, do you know about the fourth Geneva Convention

4 dated 1949, what it says about protecting civilians in wartime? Do you

5 know about Article 19, specifically, of this Convention, which talks about

6 hospitals being used for military purposes, that if a hospital is used for

7 military purposes it ceases to be a civilian facility. Did you have this

8 sort of information while you were on your mission, and are you familiar

9 with the fourth Geneva Convention that I have just referred to?

10 A. Yes, I am.

11 Q. Thank you. On the 19th of November, 1991, you returned to

12 Vukovar. Was your only task to monitor the surrender of the Croats and

13 the evacuation of the hospital, I mean either one of these or both?

14 A. It was to monitoring the evacuation of the hospital. And it

15 was -- it was my -- my mission.

16 Q. Thank you. When leaving Zagreb, did you know that the Croat

17 paramilitaries were supposed to surrender at the hospital?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Thank you. Yesterday on page 6872, line 8, you said that when you

20 arrived in Vukovar the northern section of Vukovar was still in the hands

21 of the Croats. Could you please be so kind and describe in more detail

22 what exactly you found when you got there?

23 A. On the 18th of November I only went to the -- this hill outside

24 the -- over the bus station, and at that moment we saw some -- or hear

25 some fighting in the area 1, which is the area where the hospital is

Page 6962

1 placed.

2 Q. Thank you. Let me take you up on that. You explained to my

3 learned colleague yesterday about that photograph, there was a Danish

4 monitor, and somebody that you yesterday defined as the town's defender.

5 Just to avoid further confusion, the Trial Chamber stepped in, and you

6 provided additional explanations about that photograph.

7 My question to you is: While you were at that elevation, was your

8 impression that that specific person was a member of any particular

9 military unit? Just to give you a hand, you said that you were at this

10 elevation overlooking the bus terminal and the surroundings.

11 A. That's correct. And that person, or all the person we saw in

12 that, you can call it, military position, they were Chetniks.

13 Q. Thank you. Was your impression that they were actually defending

14 this area in the town in which you happened to be? And did they tell you

15 anything to this effect?

16 A. To the last they did not tell us anything. And if they were

17 defending or trying to attack from that position, I don't know. They were

18 on that position, and they were in the houses on that position, so if it's

19 a defence position or an attack position, I -- that's not -- I can only

20 think about. I have not spoken with them.

21 Q. Thank you. Since this was inside Vukovar, can you tell us why it

22 was that yesterday you opted to use that precise phrasing "the town's

23 defender," "one of the town's defenders" in relation to that specific

24 person?

25 A. Yes. Why I used the word "defenders" is because you can call it

Page 6963

1 the people are kind of local paramilitary, and they were -- I think it

2 was, a local paramilitarian force. So if that's a defender or an

3 attacker, I'm not -- I cannot tell you that. I can only -- because if he

4 stay in that town, or live in that town, and this is his house, that's

5 his -- is a defender. Because there is a war between the JNA and the

6 Croatian. Not the JNA, sorry, between the Serb and the Croatian. So if

7 he is the defender or some of the other are defenders, I can't tell you.

8 It's not up to my position to say if this had to be taken by Croats or

9 taken by the Serbs. It's depend on the war.

10 Q. Fair enough. Thank you. In your report, this is Exhibit 340, I

11 read the following: "The Croatian forces should lay down their arms

12 before the evacuation begins."

13 Do you remember that?

14 A. I remember that.

15 Q. Thank you. In your opinion was this something that was being

16 requested by the JNA or is this based on an agreement? What do you know

17 about that, sir?

18 A. It is based on my deciding when I was on that hill. I could see

19 if we had to -- if we have any possible -- possibility to evacuate the

20 hospital, the Croats had to lay down their weapons before we could reach

21 the hospital at all. Because if there still would be Croatian force in

22 that area, we would never reach the hospital. And that was our mission.

23 It was to reach the hospital and evacuate the wounded.

24 Q. Thank you. Can we then agree you were watching from that hill,

25 and you realised that there was still fighting around the hospital which

Page 6964

1 seemed to imply that the Croats had not yet laid down their arms, did it

2 not?

3 A. They had not laid down their weapons at that time, no.

4 Q. Thank you. Likewise, in your statement to the OTP, your last

5 statement, you should have it in front of you. On page 4, paragraph 6 of

6 that statement, and the English reference is page 5, paragraph 1, you say

7 that it had been planned to evacuate the hospital by using boats across

8 the Danube two days before you even arrived. Isn't that what it says?

9 A. That's correct.

10 Q. Thank you. Does it not say there that the Red Cross should have

11 been in charge of that particular operation?

12 A. It only said that the Red Cross planned to evacuate it. But I

13 don't know if -- if they planned it alone or if we have the IC members

14 with that, it was another than were -- that I hear about when I were in

15 Zagreb.

16 Q. Thank you. Which Red Cross did you have in mind when you wrote

17 this? Do you know anything more about this operation that was planned?

18 Whose boats would have been used to carry out the evacuation?

19 A. I don't know everything about the -- nothing about this thing. I

20 just heard it on the conference in -- in Zagreb.

21 Q. Thank you. Your statement also says that it was the Croatian

22 forces that prevented the Red Cross from carrying out this evacuation by

23 boats in the belief that they were actually JNA forces and not the

24 International Red Cross. Is this something you heard about back in Zagreb

25 or did you only learn about this upon your arrival in Vukovar? Did you

Page 6965

1 know about this at all?

2 A. I didn't hear anything about that.

3 Q. Thank you. I do not wish to confuse you, because your answers

4 seem very honest and clear to me. Nevertheless, in your statement on

5 page 4 -- well, this is how it reads verbatim; you can follow. "The

6 Red Cross planned to evacuate the hospital by using boats across the

7 Danube two days before we arrived, but had to abort the operation due to

8 the fact that Vukovar's defence believed that they were being attacked by

9 the Serbs."

10 Sir, this is a portion from your own statement. Does this jog

11 your memory, do you remember that detail?

12 A. I not remember it, but I remember we had a meeting in -- in Zagreb

13 where we were talking about this evacuation. That's the only thing I

14 remember now.

15 Q. That's fine, sir. Thank you. Was one of your objectives during

16 the evacuation also to evacuate members of the Croat paramilitary forces

17 known as the ZNG in a bid to shelter them from criminal prosecution for

18 armed rebellion? What about this?

19 A. Our mission -- or my mission were to evacuate the hospital and the

20 members of the hospital, the staff of the hospital. And when I said "the

21 hospital," I mean the wounded in the hospital and the hospital staff

22 itself. There were no agreement about some other forces.

23 Q. Thank you. On the 19th of November, 1991 you were there in your

24 capacity as an EC monitor. Did you know whether Croatia, at the time, was

25 an internationally recognised country or state or not?

Page 6966

1 MR. MOORE: Well, with the utmost respect, how can this witness

2 answer it when there's been so many questions about it in other areas?

3 JUDGE PARKER: He can speak, Mr. Moore, of his state of knowledge,

4 will be understood by the Chamber as the state of knowledge of a person of

5 his standing, experience and education, and not determining the legal

6 issue.

7 MR. MOORE: Well, could I -- could I exchange the word for belief

8 rather than knowledge?

9 JUDGE PARKER: Carry on, please, Mr. Borovic.

10 THE WITNESS: Can I only say that I know that -- I think I know

11 that Slovenia was accepted as an country, but I'm not sure at that time if

12 Croatia was an accepted as a country or just that some other countries, I

13 think U.S.A. and something, were preparing to accept Croatia. But I'm not

14 sure -- I'm not sure of the status at that time. I can't remember it.

15 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Thank you, sir. Since you were present in the area, perhaps you

17 know whether that country had its own regular armed forces, irrespective

18 of its international status, as far as you know?

19 A. I only know that the Croatian had their own forces.

20 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us what their uniforms looked like, their

21 insignia, what sort of weapons did they have? The Croatian forces that,

22 at the time, you recognised as such?

23 A. The weapons they have, it were -- some of them were equal to their

24 weapon they had in -- in the -- in the JNA -- in the Yugoslavian army.

25 And some of them were -- I know were -- or I had heard had been brought in

Page 6967

1 to Croatia from, I think, other countries. Not particular -- I can't

2 mention any specific country. But I know that Croatia have weapons from

3 the outside world, yes.

4 Q. Thank you. Something else about this: While observing those

5 Croatian forces, did you at any point in time realise that there was a

6 variety of uniforms being worn? That is my first question.

7 My second question: Were there some regular official, as it were,

8 Croatian soldiers who weren't wearing any kind of uniform at all at the

9 time?

10 A. To the first question, yes, they wear different kind of uniforms.

11 To the second question, yes, I saw some civilian wearing arms, yes.

12 Q. Thank you. You testified in chief that on the 19th of November an

13 observer named Kypr spoke to the hospital director, Bosanac, using a

14 mobile phone. We even have a statement you gave to the investigators

15 confirming this. Yesterday on page 6886, line 17, you said this:

16 "Dr. Vesna Bosanac spent about 13 seconds talking to Kypr, and all she

17 said was something dreadful has happened."

18 Isn't that what you heard, sir?

19 A. I don't think I have mentioned about 13 seconds or something. I

20 only said that Mr. Kypr speak short with Dr. Bosanac, and she was telling

21 that something -- awful thing was happening in the hospital. But, you

22 know, it only what Kypr told me because I -- I cannot spoke

23 Serbo-Croatian.

24 Q. Thank you. The timing is not that important really, but you have

25 just confirmed what you said yesterday.

Page 6968

1 MR. MOORE: You know, I'm sorry. No. What is happening is that

2 my learned friend, I'm sure inadvertently, is saying that a witness has

3 said something, for example, at line 6886, Dr. Bosanac spent 13 seconds

4 talking to Kypr, and all she said was something dreadful had happened.

5 Line 17 does not say that. It says: "Yes, I can remember, she said that

6 terrible things were going on and we had to come to the hospital

7 immediately. Then the connection was broken."

8 Now where does 13 seconds come from? There's been no evidence of

9 13 seconds, and how is this coming in in a question in such a particular

10 way?

11 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] I will try to quench my learned

12 friend's curiosity. It was in the Dokmanovic case, page 1273, that the

13 witness said this. But it's not about the 13 seconds. What matters is

14 what Dr. Bosanac is reported to have said. "Something dreadful has

15 happened." It may just be an unimportant bit of confusion.

16 But can the witness now please go to his own statement to the OTP

17 where he said: "That afternoon Petr Kypr talked to Dr. Bosanac on a

18 mobile phone, and she told him that we should hurry to the hospital since

19 the Serbs were expected to take the hospital very soon."

20 Q. Sir, you stated this to the OTP. Do you stand by this previous

21 statement that you made?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Thank you. Can you help us out with this: How do you know that

24 Kypr spoke to Dr. Bosanac, and how do you know what kind of phone he was

25 using?

Page 6969

1 A. Mr. Kypr said to me that he had spoken to Dr. Bosanac. And, I of

2 course, had to believe him. And the only phone we had at that moment was

3 a mobile phone, a car phone, so I can only say that.

4 Q. Thank you. Can you provide an explanation as to what Kypr had

5 told you at the time and why you were asked to go to the hospital urgently

6 before the JNA coming inside the hospital? Did he tell you something

7 along those lines and did you do something about it?

8 A. He tell me that he had spoken with Dr. Bosanac and that we had to

9 go to the hospital because something bad was happened. Before -- and we

10 had to go to the hospital before the Serb take over the hospital. And

11 then he said that the connection was broken. That's all I know.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please have

14 Exhibit 338 put on the screen? This is a photograph number 0036-6987.

15 I apologise. Just before that, could we please see Exhibit 170?

16 Photograph 0053-1257A. I believe it comes second amongst the set of

17 photographs. Thank you.

18 Q. Can you see the photograph in front of you?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Thank you. With the help of the usher, could you please enter a

21 mark in the place where you saw the Red Cross sign on the top of the

22 building, and please mark that with 1.

23 A. I'm not sure which side of it, but it was either on the other side

24 here. I can't remember from which side on we were staying.

25 Q. Could you please put number 1 next to both of the circles.

Page 6970

1 A. [Marks].

2 Q. Thank you. It was somewhere in the middle of the roof of the

3 hospital, as you pointed out?

4 A. I think so, yes.

5 Q. Thank you. Could you please draw the Red Cross sign that you saw

6 on the lawn, could you enter a marking where you saw it?

7 A. Again, I'm not sure if it was on this side or this side, but I

8 think it was on this, or this at this place. I'm not sure which of them.

9 Q. If I told you that the side turned towards us represents the main

10 entrance, the side with the main entrance, and that the other side was

11 where the side entrance was, could you tell me whether you saw it in front

12 of the main entrance or on the side where the evacuation exit was

13 situated? Can you remember?

14 A. No. No, I cannot remember the side.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to tender

17 this as an exhibit, as marked.

18 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

19 THE REGISTRAR: That will be exhibit number [microphone not

20 activated].

21 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could we now see the

22 previous photograph, Exhibit 338, the photograph 0036-6987.

23 That's not the photograph of the hospital. Yes, thank you.

24 Q. Could you see the photograph in front of you?

25 A. I can see the photograph, yes.

Page 6971

1 Q. Thank you. Would you be so kind as to -- perhaps this is a bit

2 more to the right compared to the place where you entered your markings

3 before, but could you please mark the part of the roof where the white

4 spot can be seen?

5 A. [Marks].

6 Q. No, no, I meant, sorry to say, but I meant that we should try and

7 zoom in on that part. Could you please erase the marking?

8 Could we please zoom in on that part of the roof? More, please.

9 Thank you.

10 The question I have for the witness is the following: This part

11 of the roof, for which you said bore the sign of the Red Cross, that

12 underneath one can see the new planks used to patch up the roof. Can you

13 see that?

14 A. This one, yes.

15 Q. Thank you. Would you agree with me, you being an experienced

16 military expert, that this was put on the roof after it was hit by shells,

17 this what we can see here?

18 A. I don't know.

19 Q. Thank you. Would you agree with me then that the damage created

20 by the shells carries over on to the area where the sign of the Red Cross

21 was supposed to be, on both sides, and on the right in particular? I

22 don't want to confuse you. Can you confirm for me the following: If a

23 shell had hit that part of the roof, had there been the sign of the

24 Red Cross there, do you think the white part would be as we can see here,

25 or would that have been damaged heavily?

Page 6972

1 A. I don't know. I think it would have been damaged.

2 Q. Thank you. I don't mean to suggest that this was put up on

3 the 18th before you came, but would you allow for the possibility, based

4 on what you can see, that this piece of cloth was put on the roof after

5 the shelling, or perhaps you can't?

6 A. I think that's -- I cannot say if it is put on after or before.

7 No, I cannot. It's only -- I only take this picture because it's all

8 Red Cross. So if were there before I came, or just put up the same day, I

9 don't know.

10 Q. All right. Thank you. The last question in this line of

11 questioning of mine, in your report, which is Exhibit 341, item A, you

12 state the following, and you've expressed your views on it, in part. You

13 have said that the leader of the Red Cross --

14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not understand what

15 Mr. Borovic said. Could that please be repeated? Thank you.

16 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] It seems the interpreters had some

17 difficulty. I will repeat.

18 Q. You state that the leader or the head of the Red Cross was

19 critical only of the JNA, that was under one; number two, that he did not

20 compile a list of the wounded; and that under three, he did nothing. Did

21 I read out your report correctly, a part of Exhibit 341?

22 A. That's correct.

23 Q. Thank you. Are you of the opinion today that the Red Cross, or

24 rather its representative could have done much more in the given situation

25 and that he was actually obliged to do that?

Page 6973

1 A. I mean he -- I mean today that he could have done much more, but

2 he was not able to do it because he was -- he said he was blocked.

3 Q. Thank you. Do you know for certain how many people were evacuated

4 from the Vukovar Hospital during your mission?

5 A. No, I'm not aware of the exact number of people. As also state in

6 some of these papers I have seen, that we -- we were -- under the

7 evacuation there was a lot of refugees who conjoined the -- the evacuation

8 of the hospital. So how many wounded from the hospital itself, I'm not

9 sure of.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will allow for the

12 third team to have more time at their disposal. This concludes my

13 cross-examination. I would like to thank the witness.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Borovic.

15 Yes, Mr. Bulatovic.

16 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Good

17 morning to everyone in the courtroom.

18 Cross-examination by Mr. Bulatovic:

19 Q. [Interpretation] My name is Bulatovic, attorney-at-law, one of the

20 counsel for Mr. Sljivancanin.

21 Mr. Schou, before moving on to specifics, I wanted to clarify

22 something. Based on your statement you gave to the OTP investigators, in

23 that statement one can read that you completed your military training as a

24 reserve officer with the rank of major; is that correct?

25 A. I was a captain when I were in Croatia and then later I became a

Page 6974

1 major, that's correct.

2 Q. Thank you. That's precisely what I wanted to ask, because I could

3 see that during the mission you held the rank of captain. Could you

4 explain to me what your status was within the monitoring mission, being

5 one of its members? Namely, were you in any leadership position, were you

6 a regular member, did you have any special authorisation or tasks?

7 A. Yes, I can tell you that there was a lot of teams in this monitor

8 mission, and I was not a part of one -- of -- of these teams. I was the

9 only doctor in the ECMM, and I was under direct, you can say, command by

10 the head of mission, and he told me what I had to do. And none of the

11 other teams were able -- were -- were telling me what to do. It was only

12 the head of mission.

13 Q. Can you tell me who was the head of the mission that you were a

14 member of?

15 A. The head of the mission was a Dutch ambassador, Van Houten, I

16 think his name was.

17 Q. Thank you. Prior to being sent to the mission, did you undergo

18 any training on how to behave as a member of such a mission, and, if so,

19 where?

20 A. As I told you before, I was working on the civilian job on

21 Tuesday, and I was called by the military in Denmark and I went to the

22 Croatia on -- I think it was Monday or Tuesday. And in -- in that

23 meantime I -- it was only to equip me, and then we have one-hour talk with

24 the Danish military intelligence. I have no training at all. I was just

25 put in this mission.

Page 6975

1 Q. Thank you. Do you know how the teams were being formed, because

2 you said there were many teams within the mission. Were they formed on an

3 ad hoc basis to tackle any given particular situation, or was there any

4 sort of a plan for the composition of teams?

5 A. To my opinion, they were formed on ad hoc basis on every task.

6 And it could be a Danish EC monitor who could be in charge of this team,

7 and it could be a Dutch or a French or -- it depend -- it depend on the

8 situation.

9 Q. Was there any such sort as plan of activities of -- or for the

10 teams prior to being set off -- sent off to complete the task?

11 A. I can only tell what happened in -- in the headquarter in Zagreb.

12 That's where I normally stay. And there it was which people were at home

13 at that time the task came up.

14 Q. When did you join the Belgrade mission?

15 A. I joined the Belgrade mission on the -- I think it was the 17th,

16 in the evening, or -- or 17th during the day. And I went to Belgrade

17 together with the head of mission.

18 Q. The 17th of which month? November?

19 A. Sorry [Previous translation continues] ...

20 Q. Who was your superior within the Belgrade mission?

21 A. In -- in Belgrade when I arrived there, I said I came with the

22 head of mission, and of course he was the superior of all this mission.

23 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, a correction for the

24 transcript. I don't think the witness's answer has been recorded on

25 page 44, line 6. The witness said it was the 17th of November. I believe

Page 6976

1 this should suffice to correct the transcript.

2 Q. You say you went to Belgrade on the 17th of November, 1991 with

3 the head of the mission. I'm interested in who was indeed the head of the

4 mission who went to Belgrade with you on that date.

5 A. It was Ambassador Van Houten.

6 Q. We see a number of monitoring mission reports forwarded to various

7 bodies and recipients. I'm interested in whether you took part in the

8 drafting of those reports sent by the monitoring mission, be it by the

9 teams in the field or from the centre in Zagreb.

10 A. I only sent my own report. Of course I know that the team leader

11 of the teams that were with me, they sent -- they also sent a report, and

12 I have seen these report of course when I came back to Zagreb. I cannot

13 remember if I were exactly at the position where the report of all others,

14 so I sent my own report about the medical aspects.

15 Q. You say you were familiar with the reports sent out by team heads,

16 and not by yourself. But I'm interested in knowing whether you had any

17 objection as to the contents of those reports in terms of what was

18 mentioned in relation to the specific situations they addressed?

19 A. No. I not -- correct something in this one, I just heard that --

20 I remember that I have just heard that they sent this report. I'm not

21 sure I have seen it that day.

22 Q. I believe we have a misunderstanding. I didn't have that

23 particular day in mind, but, rather, in general whether you had any

24 objection as to the contents of the reports.

25 A. I'm not sure I understand the -- the question. You know, in

Page 6977

1 general, I only sent medical report to the headquarter.

2 Q. I understand your answer, but I had the other reports in mind,

3 sent by other members of the team. Could you see those reports perhaps at

4 a later stage, perhaps where the headquarters of the mission were?

5 A. Yes, I get a copy of all messages back in -- in Zagreb when I

6 arrived there. I have -- you can call it a -- a bag where all these

7 things, all the reports for all teams in the whole Yugoslavia.

8 Q. What about the report of your team? It wasn't drafted by yourself

9 but by someone else from the team. Did you have any objection as to the

10 contents of such reports?

11 A. No, I only hear that they had sent reports. And of course I --

12 and as I told you, I saw them when I came back to Zagreb.

13 Q. And no objection as to their contents when you saw them in Zagreb

14 subsequently?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Thank you. You said that the reason for your departure on the

17 18th of November when you went to Vukovar was to evacuate the hospital;

18 isn't that correct?

19 A. That's correct.

20 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please see

21 Exhibit 339?

22 Q. For your sake, Mr. Schou, that's tab 23. Have you found that,

23 sir?

24 A. I have 23, yes.

25 Q. You should have it on the screen too.

Page 6978

1 Can we please have the B/C/S version shown for the benefit of the

2 accused? If possible, of course. The ERN number is -- I think

3 Exhibit 339 should do, the B/C/S. Do you have that?

4 Mr. Schou, if you look at item 1 of the report, it

5 reads, "Composition of the team, a. team 1." Can you please read out the

6 names for us?

7 A. Yes, I can read the names out, and it's team 1, C. Brodin, and

8 P. Kypr, and H. Van der Gaag, and the with another handwriting, my name,

9 J. Schou. And team 2 there is van der Mast, and L. Ingerslev, and

10 K. Bonnemann.

11 Q. Thank you, sir. If you look at the next item, time-schedule, we

12 can agree that this outlines your activities on the 18th of November,

13 1991, right?

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. Is there any reference in this report on activities undertaken on

16 the 18th of November to any steps taken by your team with regard to

17 hospital evacuation?

18 A. No, I don't think it said anything about this, but as I already

19 also told you, I'm -- I'm not a member of this team normally. My mission

20 were from the head of mission to try to arrange an evacuation of the

21 hospital. How it could be possible to evacuate the hospital. It was my

22 mission. What these two team -- I was just, you can say, joined these two

23 teams, because I have no vehicle. I was not in Belgrade centre. So I had

24 no vehicle there, and nothing.

25 Q. Let me ask you: What was your intention? You had no vehicle, no

Page 6979

1 logistics, no equipment whatsoever. How did you intend to go about

2 evacuating the hospital then, sir?

3 A. Do you know how I personally go to the hospital?

4 Q. No, that's not my question. My question was, since you said you

5 were not a team member, you were just attached to this team, and you were

6 about to evacuate a hospital. But there's no reference to that if you

7 look at the time-schedule, the activities scheduled for that day. How

8 exactly did you intend to go about completing this mission that you had

9 been assigned by your head of mission, given the fact that you had no

10 vehicles, no manpower, no logistics at all?

11 A. I was attached this teams to go to Vukovar, and in Vukovar area I

12 should try to find a way or some ways to evacuate the hospital. It was

13 not my job to -- itself to evacuate the hospital. I would give a report

14 back, it's also some of this statement, report back to Zagreb where they

15 had to decide to the head of mission, they had to decide how we should

16 evacuate the hospital.

17 Q. While testifying in chief, and while being cross-examined by my

18 learned friends, you spoke about the agreement that had been reached in

19 Zagreb to evacuate the hospital. I'm talking about the 18th of November,

20 right?

21 A. On the 18th of November, I was not aware of any agreement at that

22 time.

23 Q. Based on this report, the report that we're looking at, the report

24 that's on the screen, on the 18th of November you were at Velepromet,

25 weren't you?

Page 6980

1 A. That's correct.

2 Q. Does the name of Ljubinko Stojanovic mean anything to you, sir?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Do you remember that at Velepromet you talked to a person who was

5 the head of that centre?

6 A. I can't remember if I speak to the head of that centre. I can

7 only remember that I talk with some of the refugees. And when I said "I

8 talk," of course I talk with an interpreter.

9 Q. Do you remember how many refugees you spoke to at the centre?

10 A. I think about two or three.

11 Q. You spoke to them and you learned that some of their relatives had

12 been arrested and taken away by the JNA; isn't that right?

13 A. Yes, that's what my interpreter said.

14 Q. Precisely. Having learnt this, did it cross your mind that you

15 should go to the head of the centre and inquire about the fate of those

16 people, or perhaps just to verify this previous information?

17 A. I don't understand the question.

18 Q. I can repeat that for you. Having learnt this while talking to

19 the refugees, namely that some people had been taken away, did you think

20 to inquire about the fate of those people who had been taken away with

21 anyone at all, specifically the head of Velepromet? His name is mentioned

22 in the report that you are looking at. And there is reference there to

23 the fact that somebody talked to him.

24 A. I do not remember that I talked to him, as I said before. But I

25 only act as a monitor there, and I reported back to -- in my medical

Page 6981

1 report back to Zagreb.

2 Q. You said you were using the services of an interpreter. Who was

3 your interpreter? Do you remember that?

4 A. It was Mr. Kypr.

5 Q. Was your liaison officer the one that was assigned to your team by

6 the JNA presence when this conversation took place or throughout your time

7 in Velepromet?

8 A. Our liaison officer were together with us the whole time from

9 Belgrade and back again on the 18th to Belgrade.

10 Q. Did you check this information on people who had been taken away

11 with your own liaison officer? Did you try to verify this?

12 A. I don't remember.

13 Q. You spoke about producing medical reports. What I want to know

14 is, this handwritten report, Exhibit 339, the one that you have in front

15 of you, it is dated the 18th of November, 1991, and there is another

16 typewritten one that is attached to it, and this contains a sketch. Were

17 you involved in the drafting of these two reports, sir?

18 A. No.

19 Q. A while ago, while being cross-examined by Mr. Borovic, you said

20 that on the 18th of November you were at an elevation in Vukovar, and it

21 was from there that you surveyed the situation in Vukovar and you realised

22 there was still fighting going on. While testifying in chief, you were

23 explaining something about that sketch or diagram that is attached to this

24 exhibit. You marked certain areas as 1 and 2.

25 Can you tell me, in relation to the area that you marked as 1,

Page 6982

1 it's on that diagram, whether that includes, that area includes the

2 Vukovar Hospital? By surveying the area from the elevation, what was it

3 that you were able to glean about the kind of fighting that was going on

4 there?

5 A. From that elevation we could see the area 1, but I'm not sure from

6 that point that I could see the hospital itself.

7 Q. Did you see or hear any fighting going on in the general hospital

8 area, what is marked as number 1 on the diagram?

9 A. Yes, we hear some fighting in that area.

10 Q. Is that why you were not able to access the hospital on the 18th,

11 because of the fighting that was still raging?

12 A. Yes, that's correct.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please now

15 have Exhibit 340 run up?

16 Q. This is tab 39, sir. I'm talking about your medical report for

17 Vukovar.

18 If we could please have the B/C/S on our screens for the benefit

19 of the accused.

20 I imagine you've now got that in front of you, sir. It says, I'm

21 about to read what it says, and you just check for consistency. "Medical

22 report for Vukovar. Item 1, hospital evacuation." Paragraph 1: "The JNA

23 demand that the ZNG lay down their weapons before the evacuation. No

24 cease-fire today. The chain of command in the JNA, from top to bottom,

25 must know about everything to do with the evacuation." In the

Page 6983

1 parentheses: "(agreements). Seen from the south, the city is more or

2 less destroyed and it's difficult to pass through the town by using

3 civilian vehicles."

4 Two points that I wanted you to clarify for me. If you move in on

5 the town from the south, you have to bypass all the JNA forces. Can you

6 please explain that, what you've just established here? Why would you

7 have to bypass all the JNA forces?

8 A. Because we were in south, and from south we were just -- the same

9 day we were going through the JNA area, and to reach the hospital from

10 south we had to go through this JNA area to reach the hospital, which I

11 believe at that time were still on Croatian side.

12 Q. Very well. The last bit of information in your report: "Contact

13 to the hospital must be via the present ZNG leader by car phone."

14 Isn't that right?

15 A. That's correct.

16 Q. My question: Do you know who this ZNG leader was who was supposed

17 to help you get in touch with the hospital, as your report seems to

18 indicate?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Who told you that contact was to be established with the hospital

21 in this way, in the way described in your report?

22 A. No one told me. But I -- at that time I was told, of course, that

23 the Croatians still had this area 1, and if we have to go to this area, we

24 have to contact the chief of that area.

25 Q. Do you know who the area commander was, the ZNG commander, the

Page 6984

1 National Guards Corps of the so-called Croatian army?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Do you know if anyone from your team did in fact get in touch with

4 this ZNG commander?

5 A. I don't know.

6 Q. Were you perhaps the person who got in touch with the ZNG

7 commander?

8 A. No, it would not be me. If -- if there should be a contact, I

9 think it must go through Zagreb.

10 Q. Can we then conclude and agree, Mr. Schou, this is what you seem

11 to be saying in your medical report. If the situation on the ground is

12 consistent with what you have now described, that seems to imply that the

13 hospital was under the control of the ZNG, the so-called Croatian army,

14 doesn't it?

15 A. That's correct.

16 Q. Thank you. What about the name of Marin Vidic, Bili, does that

17 ring a bell?

18 A. No.

19 Q. In the reports that you read, did you ever come across the name of

20 Marin Vidic, Bili?

21 A. I don't remember.

22 Q. What about Mr. Kypr? He seems to be referring to that name in his

23 own notes. Did he perhaps tell you who this person was?

24 A. I -- maybe, I don't know.

25 Q. You have Exhibit 340 in front of you and on the screen. It's

Page 6985

1 dated the 18th of November 2 -- 1991, I'm sorry. As far as I understand,

2 this was an independent report that you produced, wasn't it?

3 A. That's correct.

4 Q. Was this the established practice for you to send in your report

5 separately, or would they usually be part of the joint report produced by

6 the entire team?

7 A. I would normally send my own report, because I only had to ask

8 back to the head of mission.

9 Q. What about the reports that you sent separately? Did you ever

10 send them to anyone else, aside from your head of mission?

11 A. No, this report is only sent from Belgrade to the headquarter in

12 Zagreb.

13 Q. If I understand you correctly, sir, this report, the handwritten

14 report dated the 18th of November, was produced in Belgrade, right?

15 A. That's correct.

16 Q. What about the team leader? I'm talking about the team that you

17 were part of on the 18th of November, did you tell him about this report?

18 A. Yes, I told the team leader about -- that I sent a report, yes.

19 Q. Did you send him a copy of your report?

20 A. I don't remember.

21 Q. On the 18th of November, 1991, if we look at the time-schedule we

22 can see that you were in Vukovar. According to the schedule, you seem to

23 have left Vukovar at about 1530 hours. It's the schedule in the previous

24 exhibit, 339. What I want to know is whether on the 18th of November,

25 while you were still in Vukovar, you knew that members of the so-called

Page 6986

1 Croatian army had surrendered at Mitnica, the so-called Mitnica Battalion,

2 and that on the occasion a substantial group comprising about 3.000

3 civilians had left a nearby cellar?

4 A. I have not heard about that.

5 Q. On the 18th of November, 1991, do you remember talking to anyone

6 from the International Committee of the Red Cross while in Vukovar, or

7 specifically do you remember talking to Mr. Borsinger?

8 A. I only lightly remember that I talked with Mr. Borsinger on

9 the 18th but not about what, and -- I can't remember.

10 Q. Do you perhaps remember what time it was that you talked, if you

11 keep in mind your own schedule on the 18th?

12 A. I do not remember the time.

13 Q. You can't specify in relation to any of the other steps that you

14 took that seem to be indicated in the schedule, can you?

15 A. No, you see, that schedule, I first have seen here at court. Of

16 course maybe I have seen it in Zagreb, but I have not been aware of it.

17 It's long time ago.

18 Q. If I look at the schedule, it seems you arrived in Negoslavci

19 at 1215, right?

20 A. That's correct.

21 Q. You reached Vukovar by 1350, right?

22 A. Yes. But all these times it's not from my report, so I can only

23 say that it was in the middle of day. I cannot exact put time.

24 Q. Based on this report you left at 1530. Mr. Schou, if I tell you

25 that on the 18th of November the so-called Mitnica Battalion surrendered,

Page 6987

1 over 180 members of the so-called Ustasha -- I'm sorry, I mean Croatian

2 armed forces surrendered. Mr. Borsinger was actively involved in

3 negotiations from early that morning. He attended these negotiations and

4 he monitored the surrender itself, which was concluded at about

5 1600 hours. Would you then agree with me that there was no way you could

6 possibly have seen him in Vukovar on the 18th? Because first there were

7 the Negoslavci negotiations and then later there was the surrender at

8 Mitnica?

9 A. Yes, if you say so. But I can only think -- I only try to

10 remember what happened 15 years ago. But, okay.

11 Q. So you allow for the possibility that maybe you were wrong in that

12 respect?

13 A. Could be, yes.

14 Q. You said that the liaison officer was with you throughout. Let me

15 clarify that. On the 18th of November, was the liaison officer there

16 every time you did something? And please don't hold this against me, but

17 I must ask you again if you remember what his name was?

18 A. I do not remember his name, but I have a photo of him, so I -- I

19 have given to the Court.

20 Q. Mr. Schou, since you are mentioning the photograph, can you

21 explain why you took a photograph covertly of Mr. -- why did you

22 photograph Mr. Sljivancanin covertly from your vehicle at Velepromet? As

23 far as I understood, he never shirked away from journalists. Quite the

24 contrary. He often gave media statements. But why did you take such

25 photographs of him?

Page 6988

1 A. I can't remember why I take this photograph, but I take the

2 photograph there when we arrived to this refugee camp. And I also took

3 this photograph, or some -- it's not sure that it was me that took the

4 photograph. It could be one of other our team because we changed

5 photograph when we went home. So if it's me exactly or the person beside

6 me who took it, I don't know.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Bulatovic, I'm sorry, but we've reached the

8 time when I must adjourn for the reason I indicated earlier.

9 We will resume at 1.00.

10 --- Recess taken at 12.22 p.m.

11 --- On resuming at 1.13 p.m.

12 JUDGE PARKER: I am sorry that the commitment I had took longer

13 than planned.

14 Mr. Bulatovic.

15 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. Mr. Schou, before the break we discussed your medical report.

17 There is another thing I wanted to clarify. I'm interested in your

18 conclusion that I will read out, and you can perhaps double-check. "Those

19 wounded have to be saved (evacuated) via Bogdanovci or Rijeka."

20 Is that what it reads there?

21 A. It says that those wounded had to be rescued, evacuated, via

22 Bogdanovci or across the river.

23 Q. Thank you. If we go back to your testimony when you said that on

24 the 19th you had the problem of the vehicle striking a mine, can you

25 explain to me the need for and whose conclusion this was to yet again go

Page 6989

1 via Bogdanovci? Can you offer an explanation for that?

2 A. Then you mean the 19th of October, and I was not talking with

3 Major Sljivancanin himself, but I was told that he tell our chief of this

4 mission to go through the road.

5 Q. Mr. Schou, I'm afraid you didn't understand the thrust of my

6 question. This medical report of yours refers to the 18th of November,

7 1991; is that correct?

8 A. That's correct.

9 Q. In its conclusion, as the route for the evacuation of those

10 wounded, we see Bogdanovci there; is that correct?

11 A. That's correct.

12 Q. If on the 19th of October you had had an incident in the area of

13 Bogdanovci when one of the vehicles of the monitoring mission struck a

14 mine, why was there another evacuation to be through the risky area, if I

15 may call it that?

16 A. I think all area there were risky. So it was just because we have

17 to take -- I was informed that we have to evacuate the hospital in -- in

18 Vukovar, and that we should take the wounded back to Croatia, and for my

19 opinion, the way through Bogdanovci was the easiest way to go to -- back

20 to Croatia.

21 Q. Perhaps this conclusion that the wounded be evacuated via

22 Bogdanovci was made probably because Bogdanovci were then in the hands of

23 the armed forces of Croatia, and in your report one reads that any contact

24 with the hospital had to go through the main person of the ZNG present at

25 a given moment. Did that influence this conclusion?

Page 6990

1 A. No.

2 Q. Can you explain to me then who gave you the information that that

3 was the best way to go for the evacuation, that is via Bogdanovci?

4 A. It was my best guess which way was the best to get out of Vukovar.

5 Q. Thank you. Reading your statement I concluded that you saw

6 Mr. Sljivancanin for the first time when he held the rank of major -- of

7 colonel. Today you provided your answers to Mr. Borovic as to what sort

8 of rank that was. The first time you saw Mr. Sljivancanin what sort of

9 uniform he wore, and where did you see his rank, on what part of uniform?

10 A. I saw for first time Mr. Sljivancanin at the top of the hill on

11 the -- I think it was on the 19th of October where we were taken -- you

12 can say it's taken by the JNA up to that hill. And I saw him, as I

13 mentioned later, about 30 metres or something in that area because I was

14 not the chief in that mission, so I was not so close to him. But this is

15 also what we talked about, monitor together. So I'm not sure, I cannot be

16 sure that I saw three stars on his uniform at that day.

17 Q. In your statement that you have in front of you, given to the OTP

18 investigators on the 4th of February, 1995, and the 5th of December of the

19 same year, on page 4 in the B/C/S. I believe in the English it is also

20 page 4. The portion reads as follows: "I met a JNA officer."

21 Can you find that paragraph?

22 A. Yes, I have found it.

23 Q. I would kindly ask you to read out that particular sentence.

24 Aloud so that it can be entered into the transcript.

25 A. "I think that he had the rank of a colonel (wearing three stars)

Page 6991

1 and he was an officer. I know him now as Sljivancanin. I found it

2 strange that he were wearing" --

3 Q. Thank you. Therefore, I believe you will agree that back in 1995

4 your recollection of those events was far better and at that time you

5 confirmed to the investigators that you saw three stars; is that correct?

6 A. I think I saw three stars, yes.

7 Q. Thank you. On the second occasion you saw Mr. Sljivancanin and

8 you said he held the rank of major. How did you come to that conclusion?

9 Where did you see his rank, and could you describe the rank of major for

10 me?

11 A. I'm not sure I saw his rank at that moment, but he said he was a

12 major. And to my opinion, a major is one star in the same size as the

13 three stars.

14 Q. You are certain that you saw his rank?

15 A. I'm not sure that I saw his rank at that moment, no.

16 Q. Did you at that moment, anywhere on Mr. Sljivancanin's uniform,

17 see any sort of military insignia?

18 A. I don't remember.

19 Q. On the 18th of November, you said that Mr. Sljivancanin was with

20 you most of the time. I'm interested in the following: In your contacts

21 with Mr. Sljivancanin, were you ever in a situation in which he denied

22 anything to you or refused to help you, anything of that sort?

23 A. No, he only denied us to -- to -- he only said that we were not

24 allowed to go through the area because our security. We get the help

25 else -- we could get it. If we really need food, we get some food and

Page 6992

1 something like that, yes.

2 Q. On the 18th of November, 1991 there was a meeting at Negoslavci,

3 and if I remember correctly, there were six members of the monitoring

4 mission. Do you remember that meeting?

5 A. I only remember the meeting lightly.

6 Q. Do you remember whether Mr. Kypr was one of the attendees?

7 A. He -- I -- I remember that Mr. Kypr were together with me on the

8 rescue on the 19th and the 20th. If he were with the team the whole 18th,

9 I did not know. I can't remember it. You know, there was another

10 interpreter in the other team, so maybe he were there, I'm not -- I can't

11 remember.

12 Q. If I reminded you of the seating order at the meeting and if I

13 told you that you sat on the left side of Mr. Sljivancanin and that

14 Mr. Kypr was seated across the table, does that tally with what you can

15 remember about the meeting?

16 A. No, I can't remember.

17 Q. Do you remember that at a certain meeting it was asked for the

18 journalists not to be present during the conversation that you were

19 supposed to have with the representatives of the JNA?

20 A. No, I don't remember.

21 Q. If I told you that Mr. Kypr testified here, and that he confirmed

22 in one of his replies that the ECMM representatives tried not to have

23 journalists at meetings they had with JNA representatives, including the

24 one on the 18th of November, could you provide an explanation as to why

25 this was so?

Page 6993

1 A. I don't know.

2 Q. Do you remember that after the meeting I mentioned on the 18th of

3 November that together with Mr. Sljivancanin you left and that it was

4 agreed that the journalists could not accompany you, but rather that they

5 would be notified of the results of what you were about to do jointly?

6 A. I do not remember this.

7 Q. To go to the 19th of November, could we please see Exhibit 316 on

8 the screen? For your convenience, Mr. Schou, this is tab 21. Do you have

9 the report in front of you, Mr. Schou?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. As far as I can see, this was the report for the 19th of November,

12 1991 regarding a meeting at Negoslavci and the JNA headquarters there or

13 staff; is that correct?

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. Can you see there who participated in the meeting on the 19th of

16 November?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Could you please read out the names of the participants?

19 A. Yes. There were Mr. Cunningham, Mr. Brochin, I think the name is,

20 Mr. Kypr, Mr. Reuters, and myself, Mr. Schou, Mr. Van der Gaag, and then

21 there was from the JNA Colonel Pavkovic, and there was three liaison

22 officers, Colonel Loncar, and Colonel Memisevic, and Major Saric or

23 something like that.

24 Q. Was Colonel Memisevic was liaison officer with your team?

25 A. I don't know. I can't remember.

Page 6994

1 Q. What about Major Saric, sorry, Zaric. Do you know what his task

2 was?

3 A. No, I can't remember the name of these liaison officers. I only

4 can remember that we have liaison officers with us, and I can on a photo

5 said that this was one of the liaison officers.

6 Q. Mr. Schou, please go to that part of this report where it says the

7 main points follow, and I wanted to read that out, or pertinent points

8 follow. I wanted to read item a: "The whole city, including the

9 hospital, are under the control of the JNA. Management of the hospital

10 has been replaced by the JNA military doctors and personnel."

11 Item b: "The JNA is completely prepared for their part of the

12 evacuation. They will provide the vehicles necessary for it."

13 Is that correct?

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. Item c: "The route to Zidine will be as follows: Vukovar,

16 Bogdanovci, Marinci, Zidine."

17 A. That's correct.

18 Q. Item d: "Para 5 of the fax message signed by Croatian and JNA

19 authorities evoked much discussion. Colonel Pavkovic stated that the

20 prisoners of war would not be allowed to depart because," under 1, "POWs

21 are under JNA control," under 2, "If he did allow that, Serb irregulars

22 and local citizens would attack the convoy." Under 3, "Prisoners of war

23 will be exchanged for JNA POWs at some future time."

24 Mr. Schou, do you remember this particular meeting, and such

25 topics discussed there, and the meeting was presided by Colonel Nebojsa

Page 6995

1 Pavkovic at Negoslavci on the 19th of November and these issues were

2 discussed?

3 A. I can only remember that there was a meeting -- there were a

4 meeting in Negoslavci that morning. What it was about, of course it was

5 about the evacuation, but I can't remember a specific -- all these things.

6 And it's not my report, this one.

7 Q. At the beginning of your testimony I asked you whether you were

8 able to see the reports written by others within the framework of your

9 mission. You said you could see them later on in Zagreb, and that as

10 regards any of them you had no objection as to the contents. Does the

11 same go for this report?

12 A. Yes, I -- I think I saw this report first time in Zagreb. Yes.

13 And I have no report -- no comments to it.

14 Q. Thank you. While you were examined in chief and by Mr. Borovic

15 later on, you said, if I remember correctly, that on the 19th of November,

16 1991, Mr. Kypr, as he said himself, had a talk with Dr. Bosanac over the

17 phone and that the line was interrupted. And you were told that she said

18 that you were to come immediately, that horrible things were taking place,

19 and you said this took place on the 19th of November; is that correct?

20 A. That's correct.

21 Q. If I told you that we saw Mr. Kypr's notebook here in which he

22 noted all the activities he undertook on the 18th and the 19th and that in

23 his notebook it reads that he had a conversation with Ms. Vesna Bosanac on

24 the 18th of November at 1215, and that he never spoke with her again,

25 would you allow for the possibility that Mr. Kypr's notebook, and Mr. Kypr

Page 6996

1 being the person who participated in the conversation, carries more weight

2 than your testimony as an observer, if I may call you that?

3 A. It could be possible that Mr. Kypr has right. I can't remember

4 the exact place, exact time of this, if it was the 18th or the 19th. I'm

5 not sure of this, so of course it could have been the 18th.

6 Q. Could we please have Exhibit 333 put on the screen, please?

7 That's tab 27 for your convenience, Mr. Schou. And I'd like to see page

8 in the English bearing the number ZA00-4265. That's a fax message.

9 That's actually the first page. Do you see it?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Can you read out the last sentence there? There is subject, the

12 last sentence.

13 A. "Vukovar after action" --

14 Q. The last sentence of the text.

15 A. "The subject report is -- should be read in conjunction with

16 Dr. Schou and Mr. Kypr's report. This report is limited to the hospital

17 evacuation only."

18 Q. Thank you. Who authored or who signed the fax message?

19 A. It is signed by Cunningham.

20 Q. Please go to page, and perhaps we can see it on the screen in

21 the B/C/S, pages 03029498. And the English, for the benefit of the OTP,

22 is 00381429. Could we have the B/C/S on the screen for the sake of the

23 accused?

24 Mr. Schou, in the part that reads "Comments/lessons learned," I'm

25 interested in item 2. Can you see that?

Page 6997

1 A. I can see that.

2 Q. I will read out the text and you can double-check, and I will have

3 a question after that. In item 2 of the comments one can read the

4 following: "EC monitors must not be prohibited from getting involved in

5 any phase before or during the activity of any activity that they will be

6 required to monitor. In the Vukovar evacuation we were prohibited from

7 meeting with the hospital administration the evening before the evacuation

8 occurred by order of Admiral Brovet through our JNA liaison officer."

9 Did I read that portion correctly?

10 A. Yes, that's correct.

11 Q. Mr. Schou, do you remember this part of the report and the

12 situation referred to when your liaison officer said that Admiral Brovet

13 ordered you from -- not to contact the hospital management?

14 A. No, I don't remember.

15 Q. Do you know who Admiral Brovet is?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Mr. Cunningham, the person who signed this report, do you know

18 whether he had any contacts with the liaison officer? If I'm not

19 mistaken, Mr. Cunningham was a colonel of the Canadian Armed Forces, and

20 if I'm not mistaken, he was the head of the monitors there.

21 A. It is correct that Mr. Cunningham is the head of that monitor

22 teams there were, but I don't remember if he had contact with the liaison

23 officer. Of course he had it, because we have a liaison officer with us

24 at that time. But I know -- I did know what they were talking about, and

25 I'm not sure I saw it. I can't remember it.

Page 6998

1 Q. Therefore, within your team you had no knowledge of the liaison

2 officer passing on such -- Admiral Brovet's orders to the team?

3 A. I can only answer for myself. I did not know nothing -- I can't

4 remember nothing of this.

5 Q. Well, let us try to clarify this to avoid confusion. You did not

6 speak to the liaison officer, did you?

7 A. I can't remember.

8 Q. Thank you. Let us now go back to that meeting with Colonel

9 Pavkovic, the one that occurred on the 19th of November in Negoslavci.

10 Based on what I read out a while ago, it follows without a shadow of a

11 doubt that Colonel Pavkovic was very firm in his position that all of the

12 wounded would be evacuated, because they are prisoners of war?

13 JUDGE PARKER: Did you mean that not all of the wounded would be

14 evacuated?

15 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

16 Q. Can we please have page 1 of Exhibit 333 displayed on our screens?

17 Mr. Schou, do you have that? Vukovar Hospital evacuation,

18 the 20th and the 21st of November.

19 A. I have it on the screen.

20 Q. I will again be reading from item 1 of this document, Exhibit 333

21 with the same explanation. "On arrival at Colonel Pavkovic's HQ in

22 Negoslavci, the contentious points discussed the previous day were again

23 addressed. Colonel Pavkovic remained firm that not all wounded would be

24 evacuated. As a result of an order from General Raseta, Croatian

25 paramilitary wounded would have to remain as POWs."

Page 6999

1 Mr. Schou, do you remember this sort of information being shared

2 at that meeting?

3 A. No, I don't remember.

4 Q. We're talking about the morning of the 20th.

5 A. I don't remember.

6 Q. Do you remember who attended that meeting?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Do you remember seeing Mr. Pavkovic at the meeting, or rather

9 Mr. Borsinger? But just in order to jog your memory, should it fail you,

10 was there any sort of clash between Mr. Borsinger and your own liaison

11 officer?

12 A. I don't know. I can't remember this one.

13 Q. Do you perhaps remember Mr. Borsinger clashing with the head of

14 mission or head of that team, Mr. Cunningham?

15 A. No, I can't remember.

16 Q. The report, your report, indicates that the JNA took over the

17 hospital on the 19th of November. I'm talking about Exhibit 341; that is

18 your own medical report.

19 Sir, do you know that on the 19th of November an ICRC

20 representative, specifically Mr. Borsinger, was present at the Vukovar

21 Hospital?

22 A. I was told, I think it was during that evening, that Mr. Borsinger

23 has tried to reach the hospital and I was told it by Major Sljivancanin.

24 That's what I remember.

25 Q. Did you have occasion to talk to Mr. Borsinger in relation to

Page 7000

1 this? Is this something you remember, sir?

2 A. No, I -- I can't remember I talk with Mr. Borsinger.

3 Q. Did Mr. Sljivancanin perhaps tell you that he was at the hospital?

4 A. No.

5 Q. What if I told you about the position of my client who claims that

6 on the 19th, on the afternoon of the 19th he was with Mr. Borsinger inside

7 the Vukovar Hospital talking to the hospital management, specifically

8 Dr. Bosanac? What would you say about that? Is this a possibility

9 unbeknownst to you perhaps, or do you think you could rule that out

10 altogether?

11 MR. MOORE: How can this witness answer that question?

12 JUDGE PARKER: It is self-evident, Mr. Bulatovic, that if the

13 witness was not present, he can't say whether this sort of thing happened

14 or not. And I think that's what your question is trying to get him to do.

15 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologies, Your Honours, I will

16 withdraw that. I will try to rephrase this.

17 Q. When talking to Mr. Borsinger, and they did talk, we know that,

18 did the witness perhaps hear from Mr. Borsinger that Mr. Borsinger had

19 been at the Vukovar Hospital together with Mr. Sljivancanin on the

20 afternoon of the 19th?

21 A. I'm not aware of that.

22 Q. Thank you. Mr. Schou, did you know that on the 19th of November,

23 1991, Mr. Cyrus Vance, special envoy of the Secretary-General of the UN,

24 visited Vukovar?

25 A. Yes, I know he were in that -- in that area.

Page 7001

1 Q. More specifically, do you know that he visited Vukovar itself on

2 the 19th of November, 1991?

3 A. No, I was just told it later.

4 Q. Whoever shared this with you later on, did they perhaps also tell

5 you about everything that Mr. Vance saw and visited while in Vukovar?

6 A. No, I only hear that he had been in that area.

7 Q. Mr. Schou, if we could please go back to the Zagreb agreement,

8 just one question. Did you ever see a copy of this agreement signed in

9 Zagreb on the 18th of November? The Vukovar Hospital evacuation

10 agreement.

11 A. I can't remember.

12 Q. Can you perhaps remember what the substance was of this agreement

13 specifically in relation to how many persons would be evacuated, and which

14 persons exactly?

15 A. The only thing I can remember is that I had to evacuate the

16 wounded and the hospital staff from this hospital.

17 Q. I think this is Exhibit 40. Can that be shown, please? I'm

18 talking about the agreement.

19 For your convenience, sir, this is tab 20. Have you got that?

20 A. I got that.

21 Q. Could you please have a look, sir, item 4, specifically, of the

22 agreement. You see the figures being mentioned.

23 A. I don't know what you mean with this.

24 JUDGE PARKER: I think Mr. Bulatovic is referring to the first

25 item on the date of the 20th of November. Unloading of approximately 100

Page 7002

1 wounded, 50 women, 50 small kids.

2 Is that the passage you are referring to? Oh, you're referring to

3 the agreement?

4 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is an error on

5 my part, quite obviously. I'm talking about the Zagreb agreement. I'm

6 talking about Exhibit 40. I don't know what is being shown on our screens

7 though. I am sure, however, that at tab 20 the witness should be able to

8 find a copy of that agreement. That is the agreement that I'm about to

9 discuss. I've just been told that Exhibit 40 is an accurate reference.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Have you tab 20, Doctor?

11 THE WITNESS: I have tab 20, and it's the -- it's starting with

12 the representatives of the Republic of Croatia.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. And I think it's paragraph 4 to which

14 Mr. Bulatovic is referring. You will see 40 seriously ill and 360 or so

15 casualties.

16 THE WITNESS: Yes, I see it. And what was the question about

17 that?

18 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Do these figures mean anything to you, anything to do with the

20 negotiations and the Vukovar Hospital evacuation, generally speaking?

21 A. I don't know. I'm not sure I saw this at this moment.

22 Q. I'll ask you another question. A while ago you said that the

23 evacuation of patients and medical staff from the Vukovar Hospital -- or,

24 rather, if you go back to item 1 of the agreement, and item 5 as well, are

25 you able to tell us which categories are included in this agreement?

Page 7003

1 Specifically, just to make this perfectly clear, I am now referring to

2 item 5.

3 A. I can only see that in paragraph 5 there it said: "Including all

4 those wounded or sick undergoing medical treatment."

5 Q. Thank you. Can you see any reference to medical staff or anybody

6 else there?

7 A. No, it's not mentioned.

8 Q. Sir, another question about the 19th.

9 I'm sorry, I'm doing my best, but this is a very important witness

10 for us.

11 You spent the night between the 19th and the 20th at Negoslavci;

12 that's at least what I gathered. Who secured accommodation for you, and

13 where?

14 A. I can only remember that there was an -- I think a telegraph

15 officer, I think the chief of these headquarter that bring us food and

16 tell us where to sleep.

17 Q. Where did you spend the night?

18 A. I can't remember. Maybe in the car, maybe in a room in the

19 headquarter.

20 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, unfortunately our

21 time is up. Of course, should we be granted more time, I could go on.

22 JUDGE PARKER: That invites the question: How long for?

23 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, you know I always try

24 to provide at least a ballpark figure, but in this particular situation

25 I'm sorry to say I can hardly be expected to. I think I might require up

Page 7004

1 to an hour to finish this witness.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Doctor, what is your position, are you able to be

3 here on Monday?

4 THE WITNESS: Of course I am able, if it's necessary, but I have

5 some patient that I have to treat, so I have to remove them to another or

6 something like -- but of course if you want me to -- to come here on

7 Monday, I can do, but I know all my colleagues there are looking bad to me

8 in that ...

9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much for your willingness.

10 Mr. Bulatovic, are you saying that there are matters of real

11 importance to your client's case that have not yet been put, or are you

12 merely saying that you could ask a lot more questions for another hour?

13 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if you look at my

14 questions, you will realise that I have not yet touched on the 19th of

15 October, 1991 or the 20th of November, 1991 for that matter. And these

16 are two dates that the witness has discussed at length, mentioning our

17 client quite a lot, I should say. There have to be questions about that,

18 surely.

19 My assessment of how much more time I will require is an

20 optimistic one. I think up to an hour, give or take a minute or two. I

21 hope you won't hold that against me, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore, I take it that you will need to

23 re-examine?

24 MR. MOORE: Yes, and I think my re-examination will take somewhere

25 between 20 and 30 minutes.

Page 7005

1 JUDGE PARKER: I'm afraid, Doctor, we must ask you come back on

2 Monday. I'm sorry about that. I hope you can make suitable arrangements

3 with your patients.

4 We resume on Monday at 2.15. And you will be away, I expect,

5 by 3.45.

6 Mr. Bulatovic, you will have 45 minutes on Monday. Mr. Moore will

7 have the balance of the hour and a half.

8 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

9 Your Honour, there are some other matters, administrative matters

10 which I would wish to put before the Court today, which needn't detain the

11 doctor, and I will try and deal with them fairly quickly.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Doctor, if you wish to leave now, you may, or you

13 can sit there and listen to fascinating administrative matters of the

14 trial.

15 THE WITNESS: I can listen, that's no problem.

16 JUDGE PARKER: He would like to listen.

17 Mr. Moore.

18 MR. MOORE: May I just deal with one or two other matters?

19 Dr. Bosanac was to give evidence on Monday, hopefully still will

20 be able to do so. My learned friends are aware that when she arrived she

21 very kindly provided to us a file approximately this thick of material

22 that she has compiled in the intervening period. We have served that on

23 my learned friends. It's in B/C/S, we've never seen it before. It is a

24 compilation, almost like a biography, of many people who died at that

25 time. I expect that that will not delay the proceedings in any way at

Page 7006

1 all. But I have, as I say, handed it over as soon as I could.

2 There are two other witnesses that we will be making application

3 to add to the witness list: One is a gentleman called Aric. Your Honour

4 may remember there was much evidence in relation to him from Dr. Njavro.

5 We will be making an application to call him. He has now been located.

6 And my learned friends, I think, have got a draft of his statement and

7 have had it, I think, for some time.

8 The second is the statement of Florence Hartmann, who was a

9 journalist at Vukovar and indeed throughout the troubled area. The date

10 that we would be seeking to deal with, would be approximately the 18th,

11 19th of November -- of October in 1992. Her evidence relates to the

12 discovery of the grave at Ovcara. And secondly, a very short conversation

13 that she's alleged to have had with Major Sljivancanin. The -- I've

14 mentioned them to the Defence. They would like it in writing. We will do

15 so. I would anticipate that if we were to call them, that with regard to

16 Aric his evidence would last in chief no more than about an hour and a

17 half. And Hartmann perhaps about an hour. But just to forewarn the Court

18 that we will be making an application for those two witnesses.

19 There is an additional problem. It is not of anybody's making

20 here. We have a witness in another jurisdiction. We have tried to ensure

21 a video contact. Leave has been granted for a video contact for that

22 person to give evidence. Apparently there are electronic problems from

23 that area, and once again we have had to put that back. So I'm hoping

24 that that can be done -- I'm afraid it won't be done before Easter as we

25 had hoped, but it will be done, I hope, just after Easter, but again it

Page 7007

1 shall take no great time. That is the grave-digger at Ovcara.

2 Finally, my learned friends some months ago were aware that I had

3 indicated to them orally that depending on the evidence of the -- what I

4 will call the Velepromet facility, that I would be considering various

5 options in respect of the indictment. The view that I have expressed my

6 learned friends, and they are aware of it prior to any witnesses being

7 called for Velepromet, so they would not be disadvantaged, was that in our

8 submission Count 1 covers the Velepromet facility specifically. I think

9 the view that is taken by the Defence is that the Velepromet facility is

10 not specifically referred to in the indictment, and it really raises the

11 question of -- well, two questions: One, whether the principle of

12 non bis in idem applies; and two, when is the appropriate time, perhaps,

13 to argue this point.

14 For our part, I can see no point in delaying the trial

15 evidentially, and the matter can be dealt with at the conclusion of the

16 Prosecution case. For our part, I only inform the Court now of that

17 particular point, and something that the Court itself may wish to reflect

18 upon, and I just give you notice of it.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore, do I understand that the Prosecution

20 position was made known to the Defence earlier?

21 MR. MOORE: Yes. I told the Defence in discussion that in my

22 judgement the Velepromet facility was specifically referred to in Count 1

23 and would carry a verdict in Count 1. The Defence take the view that it

24 is not specifically referred to in Count 1, and therefore a verdict could

25 not lie in relation to that evidence.

Page 7008

1 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore, I would be grateful, if you could, in

2 the next week, provide short written submissions on that point.

3 MR. MOORE: Yes, of course.

4 JUDGE PARKER: And I would invite, in the same time, each Defence

5 team to provide written submissions on the question that has been posed by

6 Mr. Moore. In the meantime, if it should be relevant to any witness,

7 obviously cross-examination should continue to proceed on the basis that

8 Velepromet is included. The Chamber will attempt to resolve the issue so

9 that it can be clear to everybody whether Velepromet is covered or not for

10 the purposes of the trial as soon as possible. If it is not covered, that

11 can then limit the need for further Defence interest in that issue and

12 answering witnesses about that issue.

13 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, can I just say it may not be as simple as

14 that, and I don't mean this in any discourteous way. Firstly I don't

15 think there is any dispute from the Defence that they would say Velepromet

16 is there on the basis of notice, that if in actual fact certain evidence

17 is accepted, that notice has been given to the defendants to activate

18 obligations or duties that arise from that notice. But what the

19 Prosecution have said is it is over and above that, that it is

20 specifically -- it is dealt with specifically in relation to a verdict.

21 I, of course, will make a submission, but I would give it, I would

22 think, on -- on -- in a way that would ensure the Court would know exactly

23 the way the Prosecution put the case but would wish to argue the point if

24 it became necessary at an appropriate time. So I'm taking it that the

25 indication that I give in the document is simply that, to show exactly the

Page 7009

1 way the Prosecution say that Velepromet itself is involved in the case as

2 a specific count.

3 JUDGE PARKER: If the issue is as complicated as I feel you are

4 now indicating, would you please give your written submissions in a week?

5 And I would ask the Defence to give their submissions in response after a

6 further week, so that you are aware of the Prosecution position before you

7 respond.

8 In light of those, when the Chamber has had an opportunity to

9 evaluate them, we will determine whether oral submissions are required at

10 some appropriate time.

11 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic.

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Your Honours, I understand

14 your instructions in relation to the third subject raised by Mr. Moore.

15 We shall be duly complying with that.

16 I just wanted to say one thing. I'm not sure if it was the first

17 proposal or the second but the fact that application will be made in

18 relation to two further witnesses. When we were informed, we told the OTP

19 that we wanted to reply in writing to any applications made. What I would

20 like to know is: Are we to wait for a written application and then

21 respond, or can we take this to be his oral application; and then would

22 the Chamber be so kind as to allow us to file a written motion in reply, a

23 joint one, for all three Defence teams.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Are we to receive a written motion?

25 MR. MOORE: Yes, I thought my learned friends wanted it in

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1 writing. I was quite happy do it orally in due course with documents to

2 present to the Court. I will certainly do a written submission if -- if

3 the Court wishes it.

4 JUDGE PARKER: It does.

5 MR. MOORE: All right. Thank you very much.

6 JUDGE PARKER: And then you will have an opportunity to respond,

7 Mr. Lukic. Is that it?

8 Well, we adjourn now. We resume on Monday at 2.15.

9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.16 p.m.,

10 to be reconvened on Monday, the 3rd day of April,

11 2006, at 2.15 p.m.