Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7160

1 Wednesday, 5 April 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Borovic.

7 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Just in

8 order to raise a point that was broached tomorrow [as interpreted] we

9 talked about those three documents, MFI 00041, 00042, and 00043, the three

10 documents that were marked for identification, those that I had tendered.

11 Before we started today I spoke to my learned friend from the OTP and

12 these are in relation to the ones that were admitted yesterday. I don't

13 think there is any opposition to my motion to have these admitted. So may

14 the Chamber please rule on that.

15 JUDGE PARKER: That is the position, Mr. Moore.

16 MR. MOORE: Yes, apparently they are linked. If they are linked,

17 we cannot oppose that.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Those three documents will now be received in

19 evidence.

20 While that is occurring, good morning, Doctor, welcome back.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Morning.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Given the lapse of time I'd ask you to take the

23 affirmation again. If you'd stand and read it from the card, please.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

25 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Page 7161


2 [Witness answered through interpretation]

3 JUDGE PARKER: Please sit down.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, MFI 41, MFI 42, and MFI 43, from now

5 on will be Exhibit Number 41, exhibit number 42 and Exhibit Number 43.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Through. Yes, Mr. Moore.

7 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, I would be delighted to assist.

8 Unfortunately it it's not my turn. I think it's cross-examination on

9 behalf of Mr. Sljivancanin.

10 JUDGE PARKER: I thought there may have been some additional

11 issue, but if there is not, I move straight across. Always ready to give

12 you a little nibble at the cherry, Mr. Moore.

13 Now we go straight to Mr. Bulatovic.

14 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good

15 morning to all.

16 Cross-examination by Mr. Bulatovic: [Continued]

17 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Njavro. Let me introduce

18 myself, I am Bulatovic, one of Mr. Sljivancanin's Defence counsel. We

19 both speak the same language, I don't think we'll be having any

20 communication problems, but it is for the benefit of the interpreters that

21 I would like to ask you to please make a pause between my question and

22 your answer every time in order to allow for the interpreters to do their

23 job properly, and so that we may have an accurate transcript.

24 At the outset there is a date that I'd like to bring up. It's

25 something you mentioned in your previous testimony in relation to a

Page 7162

1 specific event. If you remember, I'm talking about the October evacuation

2 of wounded persons from Vukovar Hospital. Do you remember that

3 evacuation, sir?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you remember when exactly that occurred?

6 A. On the 19th of October, 1991.

7 Q. Do you remember how many wounded were evacuated on that occasion?

8 A. I would be hard put to give you the exact figure, but it may have

9 been between 107 and 112 wounded.

10 Q. Do you remember who was at the head of that convoy, or rather who

11 escorted the convoy all the way to the Vukovar Hospital?

12 A. It was the Medecins sans Frontieres. They escorted the convoy up

13 to the hospital first, and then away from the hospital. That's what the

14 organisation is called.

15 Q. Does the name of Robert Michel ring a bell?

16 A. No. Not that it does.

17 Q. So the MSF were at the head of that convoy, they were the

18 organisers. Do you know if there was anybody providing escort for the

19 convoy, any military forces. If so, just whose?

20 A. I'm not sure about there being any military forces escorting the

21 convoy up to the hospital. However, on the convoy's way out of the

22 hospital, and as they were crossing a certain section of town, and then on

23 to Luzac, and further off across the fields, once they passed Luzac, which

24 was an area under JNA command and it was also under the control of

25 paramilitary forces, there was a gentleman who told me something about

Page 7163

1 this, but I don't remember his rank, I believe the name was Zvonko

2 Mihajlovic, possibly Markovic. He told me that he was born in the same

3 town or was a former schoolmate of Mr. Mrksic and pursuant to General

4 Raseta's orders he was placed in charge of escorting that convoy. He told

5 me so in 1992.

6 Q. Do you remember if the convoy crossed Bogdanovci on its way?

7 A. They headed out that way. It had been agreed, at least as far as

8 I know that they would be taking the Bogdanovci route, then to Marinci,

9 Zidine, and Nustar; however, they turned off into a field just before they

10 reached Bogdanovci.

11 Q. Do you know who was holding Bogdanovci at the time?

12 A. At the time it was still the ZNG.

13 Q. Do you know if the area around Bogdanovci was booby-trapped, were

14 there any mines around that area?

15 A. I did hear something about certain sections of that area being

16 booby-trapped. I knew there was a real possibility of hitting a mine at

17 some point, but I didn't know the precise locations of those mines.

18 Q. Those are military matters, I will not tire you with these issues.

19 There's something else I want to know. Do you know who was in charge of

20 selecting the wounded who were supposed to leave on that convoy?

21 A. I believe Mr. Borovic asked me that and I answered that question.

22 The hospital's doctors asked about the seriously wounded, or rather they

23 spoke to them and they asked each and every one of them in turn if they

24 wanted the MSF to take them to other health institutions where they would

25 receive better treatment. Dr. Bosanac did likewise, and so did I, and so

Page 7164

1 did a number of other doctors. There was a whole group of hospital

2 doctors who took part in this decision-making process. And each patient

3 was given a chance to say whether they would like to proceed with the MSF

4 or stay.

5 Q. You were speaking about this on cross-examination when prompted by

6 Mr. Borovic, but there's something that remains unclear. Do you remember

7 a soldier by the name of Ivan Zivkovic?

8 A. Yes, this is precisely something that I would like to add

9 something about. I know Ivan Zivkovic, he was a soldier at the time, he

10 still lives in Vinkovci, he had sustained a number of serious injuries and

11 this should be easy enough to verify. I did answer a number of questions

12 from Mr. Borovic about this person. There might be other people called

13 Ivan Zivkovic. As you know that is a very common name, both in Croatia

14 and in Serbia, as well as in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Throughout the

15 former Yugoslavia, I guess you might say, Zivkovic was a very common

16 surname.

17 Q. What I don't quite understand about the selection process, how

18 many seriously wounded were there at the Vukovar Hospital back in October

19 1991?

20 A. In mid-October, or thereabouts, there was talk that the convoy

21 would be arriving earlier, and then there were all the problems that we

22 have spoken about, and then suddenly it was the 19th and at this point I

23 think there may have been about 400, up to 450 wounded there, but I would

24 be hard put to give you is a more accurate figure than that.

25 Q. What I want to know now is about selecting these 104, up to 112,

Page 7165

1 you said. Did that depend on the doctor's opinion or on the patient's

2 personal desires? Were they free to choose where they would go?

3 A. It very much depended on the condition of those patients. Bearing

4 in mind the horror that those people had been through, and the horror that

5 they were experiencing on a daily basis, it was only natural that all of

6 them would want to get out as soon as possible to avoid all these horrific

7 experiences, but those who were eventually selected were the ones

8 requiring urgent medical assistance.

9 Q. Was there any one doctor who had the say, as it were, in deciding

10 which of patients would go?

11 A. It's very difficult to say that sort of thing now. I don't think

12 there were any major differences of opinion in terms of professional

13 views. This was not about the doctors' internal hierarchy, that wasn't

14 what the decision-making process was based on, the principal criterion was

15 the seriousness, as it were, of injuries, and the possibility of future

16 complications to the patient's health.

17 Q. About the 19th of October convoy, were you in touch with members

18 of the ECMM who were on that convoy?

19 A. I talked to someone who said he was in charge of the MSF convoy.

20 I don't remember the man's name. I do know that he offered me an

21 insignificant amount of medicine and medical equipment. I don't remember

22 what my answer was at the time, but what's certain is that by doing what

23 they did and by taking away a large number of wounded, they managed to

24 save a whole lot of lives. Whenever I can I meet up with those people,

25 just because I like to thank them for the humanitarian action that they

Page 7166

1 took at the time.

2 Q. Do you remember if there was anybody on behalf of the JNA there

3 together with the European monitors? I mean on that convoy.

4 A. I can't say. We were all busy getting our patients ready to go.

5 You will understand that there was to be an evacuation and there was some

6 people who had sustained serious wounds. These people had to be prepared

7 and we were busy doing just that. I can't say who else was there, the

8 people you're asking about, but what I can tell you is that we were

9 extremely busy getting the patients ready to go, otherwise the evacuation

10 itself would have been jeopardised.

11 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Njavro. Let us move on to the 18th of

12 November 1991, now. You've spoken a great deal about that already and you

13 testified that on the 18th of November, 1991, in the early afternoon, a

14 military vehicle arrived in front of the hospital; is that right?

15 A. One, or possibly two vehicles. However, a lot of time has

16 elapsed, and that affects your memory. I do think there were two military

17 APCs, though. Two, not one.

18 Q. Please try to think back. Was it one or two?

19 A. Two. I would settle for two.

20 Q. Did they both arrive at the same time or was there a time lag

21 between their respective arrivals?

22 A. I can't quite remember, I did see two at the time. I'm not sure

23 if there was a time lag. Whether they arrived at different times, I can't

24 be certain about that.

25 Q. The APCs disgorged a number of JNA officers, right?

Page 7167

1 A. Yes, I did say so.

2 Q. Could you please just wait until I finish my question and then

3 proceed with your answer, sir?

4 Who was the first officer you spoke to?

5 A. The APC disgorged two officers. One of them was a captain by

6 rank, and the other was a major.

7 Q. Which of these two did you first speak to; do you remember that,

8 sir?

9 A. It was neither of those. I can't quite remember, but one of the

10 officers said that we should all go into the hospital and not go anywhere

11 else. This was contrary to what we had been told earlier on. We had been

12 told that no soldiers would be entering the hospital of the they said we'd

13 be picked up and that all medical staff would be evacuated.

14 Q. We're talking about the 18th of November, right, 1991? You say

15 that this was contrary to what you had been told earlier on, what I want

16 to know is what exactly were you told earlier on, and by who?

17 A. I learned on the 18th, if my memory still serves me well, I think

18 Dr. Bosanac told me that she had been talking that Mr. Mrksic on the

19 phone, what was being said is that the hospital would be evacuated and

20 that she needn't worry. He had said that those who would be found at the

21 hospital would be allowed to -- those who were found at the hospital would

22 be allowed to leave the hospital. On the other hand, she was also in

23 touch with Zagreb, she spoke to the European monitors, and I think also

24 somebody from the Croatian government, and was told that there would be an

25 agreement with the JNA to have the hospital evacuated.

Page 7168

1 Q. They were saying that there would be an agreement, which probably

2 implies that there was no agreement in place at the time they spoke,

3 right?

4 A. Very difficult for me to say. It was said that there was an

5 agreement already that had been signed but I never saw this agreement.

6 However, it was also said that General Raseta, the international monitors,

7 the International Committee of the Red Cross and representatives of the

8 Croatia government had agreed the terms I just mentioned.

9 Q. You say that on the 18th you saw Mr. Sljivancanin outside the

10 Vukovar Hospital, right?

11 A. Right.

12 Q. Can you say what time it was?

13 A. Early in the afternoon; 1.00, 2.00 p.m.. Difficult to say. It

14 was in the early afternoon on that day though.

15 Q. You say it was at the same time that you laid eyes on the ICRC

16 man, Mr. Borsinger, right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Do you remember if Mr. Borsinger arrived in his own vehicle or did

19 he perhaps arrive with one of these officers?

20 A. There was a great turmoil, and the stress levels were high for all

21 of us. Under those conditions you could hardly have expected me to notice

22 how Mr. Borsinger arrived, in what sort of vehicle, or for that matter

23 whether he arrived with someone else on his own.

24 Q. Did you know Mr. Borsinger from earlier on, did you meet at the

25 negotiations or was this the first time you met him?

Page 7169

1 A. I can't quite remember whether I knew him from before. What is

2 certain is that I saw him at this point in time.

3 Q. You say that at this point an argument or an altercation erupted

4 between Mr. Borsinger and Mr. Sljivancanin, right?

5 A. Yes, right.

6 Q. How far was that from where you were standing, and can you please

7 describe the exact place where this occurred? In the hospital, outside

8 the hospital?

9 A. Outside the hospital. We can go there together, if you like, and

10 I can point the spot out to you, if that's what it takes. That would be

11 no problem at all for me. I think my distance from them was about five or

12 six metres. It's difficult to be more accurate than this, give or take a

13 metre or two. Five or six metres. But I could clearly overhear their

14 conversation, since their voices were both raised.

15 Q. I'll ask you about the topic of their conversation later on, but

16 what I want to know is which entrance, which hospital entrance while you

17 were away, we've been looking at a great deal of photographs of the

18 hospital building and we do have a general idea of its layout. We do know

19 there is such a thing as the main entrance, we know about the emergency

20 entrance so was this outside the main entrance or the emergency ward?

21 A. The main entrance and the emergency ward entrance was one and the

22 same. It was the same door. The reception was there, a janitor was

23 there. There was a sliding door, and this was the main door, the main

24 entrance to the hospital, mostly used by the hospital's personnel. So

25 that's what I define as the main entrance.

Page 7170

1 Q. Mr. Njavro, please don't hold this against me, but we have seen a

2 great deal of photographs here, there is such a thing as an emergency ward

3 entrance. It's in some sort of a tunnel, or rather it's a roofed-over

4 area. There's some sort of a roof covering the area. Do you remember

5 that?

6 A. I'm trying to think, I'm trying to remember what it might be

7 you're referring to. But if I might mention something, there's

8 Gunduliceva Street, there's an entrance right there and this is when you

9 approach Vukovar from Osijek. That might be a reference point for you.

10 There was another principal entrance if you like and that was the one

11 facing Ivo Lola Ribar Street. And this is when one approached from Sid or

12 Ilok, from that general direction, and this was the main entrance to the

13 hospital. And this is where you had guards, or rather there was a janitor

14 who checked people on the way in. But you shouldn't confuse this one and

15 the main entrance to the hospital building.

16 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we have document

17 170, photograph number 6 placed on our screen? I think we are compelled

18 to go through this exercise.

19 Q. Do you see the photograph?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. We can see both entrances on this photograph; is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. With the assistance of the usher, would you please use the special

24 pen that we have, we normally call it a magic pen. And would you please

25 mark the location where this conversation took place on the 18th, between

Page 7171

1 1300 and 1400 hours, the conversation between Mr. Sljivancanin and

2 Mr. Borsinger?

3 A. I'm pointing now to the main entrance. You can see where the

4 reception area was, where the doorman or the janitor was.

5 Q. Mr. Njavro, let's try to do it this way: Can you put number 1

6 where the main entrance into the hospital is?

7 A. I'm doing that right now. [Marks]. "1". I don't know if this is

8 visible. Can you see it?

9 Q. Yes. Now please put number 2 where the entrance, the main

10 entrance into the building is located.

11 A. [Marks]

12 Q. And now mark with number 3 the emergency entrance. I believe it's

13 to the right. I don't wish to confuse you.

14 A. Sir, let me make a distinction. Do you have in mind the emergency

15 services itself, or just the emergency surgery?

16 Q. The emergency surgery.

17 A. Shall I put number 3 there?

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. [Marks]

20 Q. Now, mark with number 4 the location where Mr. Borsinger and

21 Mr. Sljivancanin talked on the 18th of November between 1.00 and 2.00

22 p.m.?

23 A. It's impossible to do that because that area is not shown on the

24 photograph because the tree, the tree here covers the entrance, and then

25 there is another area and a street parallel to Ivo Lola Ribar Street, and

Page 7172

1 it is at the end of that entrance that the conversation took place.

2 However, that location is not shown on the photograph.

3 Q. All right. Then would you please indicate with an arrow the

4 direction where that is located and mark it with number 4?

5 A. [Marks]

6 Q. And how far were you from there? Would you please mark your

7 location with number 5?

8 A. [Marks] Well, I hope this is visible enough.

9 Q. It is. And how far were you from that location?

10 A. As I have said, six to eight metres. I told you that I wasn't

11 really good with estimating distance.

12 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I want to tender

13 this marked photograph into evidence, please?

14 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number 349.

16 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 Q. Let us continue analysing this conversation. Were any other

18 medical staff present when this conversation took place?

19 A. There must have been other people present, but I was focused on

20 what was going on and what was going to happen to us. Now, as to other

21 medical personnel, whether they were there and if so, who, I can't say

22 anything about that. I don't remember.

23 Q. Was Mr. Borsinger on his own, or were there any other ICRC

24 representatives there?

25 A. I only remember Mr. Borsinger. I can't say that I saw anybody

Page 7173

1 else there. However, it's possible that they were there. I only saw

2 Mr. Borsinger, though.

3 Q. Did you see whether Mr. Sljivancanin was accompanied by any other

4 JNA officers or was he alone?

5 A. It's possible. As I've told you, the conditions were such for all

6 of us, and this was after a long, exhausting period, therefore, I

7 remember, and I paid attention only to the altercation itself, not to who

8 else was present there.

9 Q. You said that you heard the conversation between Mr. Borsinger and

10 Mr. Sljivancanin, we can call it an argument, an altercation, whichever

11 way you like it. Do you remember whether, in that conversation,

12 Mr. Sljivancanin told Mr. Borsinger that during the previous night some

13 young JNA soldiers were killed?

14 A. I don't remember hearing that.

15 Q. Do you remember that in that conversation Mr. Sljivancanin told

16 Mr. Borsinger that if he wasn't interested in that, then he wasn't welcome

17 where he was at the time?

18 A. I've already told you what I remember hearing, things that I

19 remembered. I described that to the Trial Chamber. Now, as to whether

20 there were any other exchanges, it is possible. I do not exclude that

21 possibility, but I told you what I remember.

22 Q. Mr. Njavro, a witness who gave evidence here told us that in the

23 course of 1992 and onwards Mr. Sljivancanin was frequently shown on TV

24 programmes in Croatia. Do you remember that?

25 A. For sure there were programmes and there will be programmes about

Page 7174

1 various topics, other topics, also involving Vukovar. Therefore, I'm not

2 the kind of a person who bases his opinions based on what he sees or hears

3 on television. I described to the Trial Chamber what my recollections

4 were.

5 Q. Mr. Njavro, let me interrupt you. My question was very brief.

6 Were these programmes shown on Croatian television?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. This conversation between Borsinger and Sljivancanin, the one that

9 you described to us, was it broadcast on television?

10 A. It's possible but I don't remember specifically these programmes.

11 It's possible that this was shown as well. You know yourself that the

12 television followed every step that was taken there. They recorded it on

13 cameras. Mostly Serbian television, and then other TV stations got that

14 material, you know that there is an exchange of material between TV

15 stations, therefore it is possible that other TV channels broadcast that

16 material as well. I told you what I had heard. Now, whether there were

17 any other exchanges, I don't know. I don't remember.

18 Q. Let me ask you this: Do you remember that the conversation

19 between Borsinger and Sljivancanin was broadcast on television at any

20 point in time, and did that affect your recollection on the conversation

21 that took place, as you say, on the 18th of November?

22 A. No, I don't think that that was necessary for me. Those are the

23 words that I will remember for the rest of my life. I returned back to

24 the basement. Panic ensued. People were overtaken by fear that something

25 evil was going to happen. And this is why these words became engraved in

Page 7175

1 my mind. It doesn't matter whether later on that was shown on television

2 or not. My memory remained intact.

3 Q. That's not what I was trying to suggest.

4 A. Perhaps it was shown on television at the time. It was, yes.

5 Q. You say that you went to the basement after this. Do you know

6 what Mr. Borsinger and Sljivancanin did then?

7 A. I didn't see that. They left, Mr. Borsinger and Mr. Sljivancanin.

8 I don't remember seeing them later.

9 Q. Another brief question concerning that. How long did this go on

10 for, was it half an hour, an hour, this conversation?

11 A. The conversation, the bit that I eye-witnessed lasted not more

12 than five minutes, perhaps. Because after that an order was issued that

13 all of us had to go into the hospital, and I did as I was ordered. I went

14 back into the hospital.

15 Q. Very well. Do you know who Marin Vidic, Bili, is?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You said that Marin Vidic, Bili, came to the hospital on the 18th

18 of November, 1991. I'd like to know whether you know when exactly he

19 came, and why.

20 A. I can't tell you why he came. I can't even tell you what time it

21 was when he came to the hospital. However, Marin Vidic, Bili, as the

22 government commissioner in charge of the city used to come to the hospital

23 and most often he would contact Dr. Bosanac as the hospital director.

24 Q. Did he come on his own on the 18th of November or with someone?

25 A. I don't remember.

Page 7176

1 Q. Since you were in the hospital throughout that period, do you know

2 anything about where Mr. Vidic had his accommodation?

3 A. I don't remember that, but as what I do remember, if we are now

4 referring to the 18th.

5 Q. Yes, the 18th.

6 A. I don't remember where he had accommodation. I don't know where

7 he spent the night, if he did at all.

8 Q. Do you know whether Mr. Vidic, on the 18th of November, perhaps

9 was present when this conversation of Mr. Sljivancanin took place and

10 whether he was outside of the hospital on the 18th?

11 A. No. Dr. Bosanac came, and she said that she had contact with the

12 ICRC, and that they would come to the hospital and take over the hospital

13 and that we were to come outside to meet the representatives of the ICRC.

14 However, it wasn't them who arrived, but rather APCs arrived, so the two

15 of them went back and I think that they told me this later, but I don't

16 remember quite clearly, that they went out to see why the ICRC

17 representatives weren't there. So I remained on the spot that I told you,

18 and that I marked with the magic pen.

19 Q. So it seems that you, Vesna Bosanac, Marin Vidic, came out

20 together?

21 A. Correct.

22 Q. ICRC did not appear?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Two APCs arrived?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7177

1 Q. Am I concluding right, then, that after the two APCs arrived Vesna

2 Bosanac and Mr. Vidic went to look for the ICRC representatives?

3 A. No, no, no. They came back because I think that they talked to

4 Colonel Mrksic, and that supposedly he was also informed about this.

5 Based on the telephone contact with Zagreb they learned that the ICRC

6 representatives would arrive in order to take over the hospital, and so

7 that the hospital could be evacuated. Since -- or rather when the APCs

8 arrived, and not the ICRC representatives, I was told later that they went

9 to see how come the ICRC representatives did not come and why was it that

10 the army was there, or the troops who were then entering the hospital

11 compound, even though it was said that they wouldn't do that.

12 Q. Very well. On the 18th you went back into the basement and when

13 did you see Mrs. Bosanac again?

14 A. On that same day, the 18th, but in the evening. I don't know

15 whether -- or where she went or whether she spent the night at the

16 hospital, I don't know about that.

17 Q. On the 18th, in the evening, when you met with Mrs. Bosanac, did

18 you discuss with her what had happened between the ICRC representative and

19 Mr. Sljivancanin? Did you inform her that the ICRC representatives were

20 outside of the hospital and what type of a clash occurred?

21 A. I think that Mrs. Bosanac, on the 18th, had already received a fax

22 from Belgrade -- from Zagreb about the agreement that had been signed

23 between the JNA and international observers and the Croatian government

24 about the evacuation of the hospital.

25 Q. Mr. Njavro, I apologise for interrupting you. My question had a

Page 7178

1 different aim, and let me rephrase it briefly. Did you, on the 18th,

2 speak to Mrs. Bosanac about this, did you tell her that a representative

3 of the ICRC was, on the 18th of November, outside of the Vukovar Hospital?

4 A. I don't remember.

5 Q. Did you perhaps talk to her? Did you tell her what sort of a

6 misunderstanding or altercation had occurred between Mr. Sljivancanin and

7 Mr. Borsinger?

8 A. I don't remember exactly how our conversation proceeded. I can't

9 say with certainty whether I told her all of these things. I stand by my

10 previous statement, namely when I said that at the time her main worry was

11 to have the hospital evacuated. She wasn't worrying about listening to me

12 talking about what I'd heard being said outside the hospital.

13 Q. But you said a while ago, Mr. Njavro, that you were scared and

14 that you realised this wouldn't work. Why didn't you convey this concern

15 of yours to the hospital director once you had realised what was going on?

16 A. I'm just that sort of a person. Sometimes I tend to hide my fears.

17 I tend not to express my fears, not to let them show. Also, in my work

18 as a surgeon I had to deal with my own fears silently and keep them to

19 myself. It became a part of my very person. I developed a habit of

20 keeping these experiences to myself, and holding my fears back. But,

21 frankly, I can't remember whether I told her or not.

22 Q. On the 18th of November, Mr. Njavro, did anything happen that

23 struck you as more important than this, something that directly affected

24 your own fate, the safety of your patients, or anything like that?

25 A. I've answered already a number of questions to this effect, both

Page 7179

1 by the Defence and by the OTP. I told you that the hospital was in the

2 grip of great fear. First the JNA arrived, and then the paramilitaries

3 arrived. I told you what started happening when night fell. I have said

4 a lot of things before this Chamber about what happened, and I have

5 nothing to add.

6 Q. On that day, the 18th of November, Marin Vidic, Bili, Croatia's

7 government commissioner was in the hospital, or that's what you said. Did

8 you tell hem anything about your concerns and anything that seemed to be

9 not in keeping with the agreement that had been reached?

10 A. Marin Vidic was a different kind of person altogether. I don't

11 remember telling him about it, but again I can't be certain. Since I

12 hadn't told Dr. Bosanac, I didn't think it would be necessary for me to

13 bring this up with Marin Vidic, Bili.

14 Q. Did you at least try to track him down, given his position at the

15 time? Just in order to tell him that the army had arrived, contrary to

16 the terms of the agreement that had been reached, that there was an

17 argument between the army and the ICRC, that both you and your patients

18 were jeopardised by this situation? He was, after all, there on behalf of

19 Croatia's government, wasn't he?

20 A. I think Dr. Bosanac also went to Negoslavci later on. But I think

21 they were in charge of that, in as far as it was possible to take charge

22 of anything at all in those circumstances I suppose I needn't even tell

23 you about all the panic that arose, and the fear felt by everyone in the

24 hospital. Just imagine what that would have been like. You have all the

25 wounded there, and there come I, sharing my fear with them, burdening them

Page 7180

1 as it were, with my own fear. I don't think there would have been too

2 many people who would have been able to cope with that sort of pressure.

3 I don't know. I didn't talk to Bili about this. I'm not sure if Dr.

4 Bosanac did. I'm not sure how they went about this. They would be better

5 placed to give you that sort of answer.

6 Q. Dr. Njavro, do you know if on the 18th, Dr. Bosanac and Mr. Bili

7 were together throughout and do you know if they tried to get in touch

8 with the Croatian government or anybody else? You were the hospital's

9 chief surgeon after all. Were you informed about what people were talking

10 about?

11 A. I was only told that the hospital would be evacuated and I was

12 told about the terms of this evacuation. Secondly I was let me say even

13 far busier than they were. I was the surgeon in charge, after all, and I

14 had to take charge of the wounded and of my staff. There were many things

15 to be kept in mind, and I had to keep in mind all these things at the same

16 time. I hardly had time for other concerns in addition to my work as a

17 surgeon, treating the wounded and the sick.

18 Q. You say that Dr. Bosanac talked to someone on the evening of the

19 18th and that she was told that an agreement had been reached, right?

20 A. I'm not sure if that was at evening or in the afternoon. I don't

21 remember that sort of thing. But I do remember what she told me, briefly.

22 Q. That's fine, sir. Let's try to be brief on this subject. Do you

23 remember if there was any -- if there were any messages being faxed

24 between the hospital and the Croatian government on the 18th of November?

25 A. I can't say with certainty. I know there was a phone link that

Page 7181

1 was still operating, but I don't know about the fax link. I can't be

2 certain.

3 Q. Let me ask you this: Did the hospital have a fax machine?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you remember if by any chance a request was faxed from the

6 hospital to have a copy of the agreement forwarded to the hospital or

7 anything like that?

8 A. I don't know.

9 Q. Were you informed in any way, were you told more about the terms

10 of the agreement that had been reached, the agreement that Dr. Bosanac was

11 told about on the afternoon or evening of the 18th?

12 A. No, I didn't even see this treaty myself. I didn't go through it.

13 I didn't read the treaty. I was told about the terms of the treaty by Dr.

14 Bosanac, about the principal, salient features.

15 Q. On the 18th, Dr. Njavro, were you free to move about the streets

16 of Vukovar, were you free to move about the hospital?

17 A. On the 18th I was still able to go around the hospital and see to

18 it that the wounded got all the medical attention they required.

19 Q. On the 18th of November did you perhaps go to Dr. Bosanac's

20 office? Do you remember going to her office on that day?

21 A. I don't think she had a proper doctor's office. I think this was

22 a room that she used for consultations. I think she kept her files in

23 that room, and some of the patients' case histories were being kept there.

24 I don't think she had a special room to herself. This was the room that

25 one went to whenever there was something, an issue that needed raising

Page 7182

1 with the doctor.

2 Q. Dr. Njavro, did you hear that on the 18th of November, 1991, a

3 group, more specifically, a battalion of the so-called Croatian army

4 surrendered at Mitnica, surrendered to the JNA, I mean?

5 A. No, I only learned about this when I was in Mitrovica, in prison.

6 How else could I have known?

7 Q. Did you perhaps notice prior to the 18th of November, that there

8 had been a largely increased influx of civilians to the Vukovar Hospital?

9 A. I have been asked this sort of question before, and I clearly said

10 that my family, too, was among them. There was this entire residential

11 building, there were 20 flats there, and that was my building, that was

12 where my family lived, and they all arrived at the hospital on that

13 Sunday.

14 Q. I suppose you talked to some of the people who were arriving at

15 the hospital in those days?

16 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just one thing.

17 Page 23, line 17, the date is missing. Sunday, the 17th. Or rather line

18 15, my apologies. Page 23, line 15. It should say, "Sunday, the 17th."

19 There is no date. We can clarify that.

20 Q. Mr. Njavro, let us not waste any time. When your family arrived

21 on the 17th, when they arrived at the hospital, did you speak to any of

22 the people arriving about what was going on outside the hospital?

23 A. I spoke to my own family, and I learned about their experiences in

24 the cellar. It was impossible to communicate at the time on account of

25 the heavy shelling. They told me about their own experience. I realised

Page 7183

1 that they were suffering from some health problems too, but I didn't have

2 a chance to talk to anybody in particular. There were between 400 and

3 500 -- 450 people there who were wounded there, infirm, sick, elderly. I

4 didn't really have time to go to anyone in particular to speak to people

5 individually and ask them about their condition and their problems, but

6 there were people who approached me and who told me about their

7 experience, about what was going on in the cellars around town, that

8 explosives were being chucked into cellars all over town, people were

9 being killed, and that this was the principal reason that people started

10 streaming into the Vukovar Hospital, in order to find safety there.

11 Q. Dr. Njavro, did you hear that on the 18th of November a large

12 group of civilians were put up in Velepromet?

13 A. On the 18th?

14 Q. Yes.

15 A. As far as I know, and I do know about these things, on the 19th --

16 Q. No, no, please, sir.

17 A. I don't know about that, then. That's your answer.

18 Q. Dr. Njavro, what did you do on the 18th, after you returned to the

19 basement? Were you still free to move about the hospital on the 18th?

20 A. On the 18th, on the 18th I think there was some complicated

21 surgery that I had to perform on a young child, three years of age, I

22 think. Who had sustained a serious wound during the shelling. The

23 surgery required two or three hours of my time, and the conditions,

24 obviously, were very difficult. I devoted some of my time and attention

25 to that child. I had to make sure that the child would make it. I was

Page 7184

1 free to go on later, although it was dark and I was using a candle to tour

2 the hospital and visit all the wounded. I've spoken before about this to

3 both the OTP and the Defence, haven't I? And then I walked back to that

4 room just outside, but I think this was the only place, some bench or a

5 chair where one could sit down for a while to get some rest.

6 Q. On the 18th at night, did you hear that there was still fighting

7 going on around Vukovar? Did you hear sounds of explosions and people

8 fighting?

9 A. I've already testified about this before. Maybe I wasn't able to

10 really hear a lot of that at the time, but during the time I spent waiting

11 for this to continue, I was thinking to myself all the time, there were

12 explosions, sporadic ones. Maybe even there, but not near the hospital,

13 yes. I can't say with certainty.

14 Q. You mentioned a person in your testimony, I mean Mr. Ante Aric.

15 Do you know whether and why Ante Aric came to the Vukovar Hospital?

16 A. I think he came twice. I testified to the OTP, and also I

17 testified --

18 Q. Mr. Njavro, please, let's not waste any time. It was a short

19 question.

20 A. Allow me to clarify, because he came twice.

21 Q. Thank you very much. Please go ahead, clarify.

22 A. He came twice, because he was sent there by the Zagreb medical

23 staff. They sent him to the Vukovar Hospital to help out. And the last

24 time he came, let me try to remember, was sometime in August or early in

25 September, 1991. He was a technician, a paramedic.

Page 7185

1 Q. Can you please just repeat this, Mr. Njavro, for me? It's a bit

2 unclear in the transcript. Who sent Mr. Aric to the Vukovar Hospital?

3 A. The main medical staff in Zagreb.

4 Q. Mr. Njavro, we have a problem with the transcript. Can I please

5 ask you to hold your breath for several seconds after I complete my

6 question before you start answering?

7 A. That's fine.

8 Q. What about the name of Josip Husar, Dr. Josip Husar does that mean

9 anything to you?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Was he too a member of the main medical staff in Zagreb and was he

12 the person who told Mr. Radic [as interpreted] to go to Vukovar?

13 A. I don't know if he was attached to the main medical staff, but I

14 do know that Dr. Josip Husar used to work at the Vukovar Hospital and then

15 he started his residency in Zagreb and he was off. I don't know if he was

16 one of the people who decided to send Ante Aric to the Vukovar Hospital.

17 I don't know. What I do know is that, as a native of Vukovar, Mr. Husar

18 was very fond of Vukovar and he wanted to do something to help.

19 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, correction for the

20 transcript, page 26, line 1, it reads, "Radic," where, in fact, it should

21 read "Aric", just so we avoid any confusion.

22 Q. Let me ask you this to clarify some information that I have. Is

23 that Mr. Husar who later on was on the Rebro hospital in Zagreb, and then

24 later in 1996 a scandal broke out when they -- involving negligent

25 treatment of some three children who later on died?

Page 7186

1 A. Mr. Husar completed his surgical residency, and then he completed

2 his further treatment abroad, I think in Germany. He was a specialist in

3 paediatric cardiac treatment and it's true there was some affair that you

4 told us. There is a medical association in Croatia.

5 Q. Mr. Njavro, we don't need to go into that, I just wanted to make

6 sure that my information was correct. Filip Karaula, does the name mean

7 anything to you?

8 A. I didn't know Filip Karaula prior to that. I heard of him back in

9 Vukovar. As for his task, the task that he had during the aggression

10 against Vukovar, I don't know that. All I can say is what I learned later

11 on. However, during the attack on Vukovar I did not know what his task in

12 defence was. As a native of Vukovar, I knew something about what was

13 going on at Mitnica, but I didn't know his particular task at Mitnica.

14 All I know is that he was a defender. But I don't know much about his

15 specific task. I learned it later on, because I had contact with him

16 subsequently.

17 Q. Mr. Njavro, I'm not interested in what you learned subsequently.

18 I'm only interested in the time period relevant for the indictment.

19 When I asked you about Ante Aric, I omitted to ask you this: Did

20 you see him on the 18th in the hospital?

21 A. I think that Ante Aric was in the hospital on the 18th.

22 Q. Do you think or are you sure of it, perhaps?

23 A. I can't claim with certainty. I believe that he was in the

24 hospital on the 18th, though.

25 Q. Very well. Mr. Njavro, let us now turn to the 19th of November,

Page 7187

1 1991. Please tell us what happened on the morning of 19th of November,

2 1991.

3 A. I can repeat to you what I already said.

4 Q. No need to repeat, please. I'm interested in learning who you

5 first on the 19th in the morning, outside of the hospital personnel.

6 A. A captain appeared, introduced himself. He said Captain Radic.

7 He set some limits on my freedom of movement. The room that I already

8 described to you was where I was supposed to stay for my safety. And then

9 Ante Aric showed up, he warned him that it would be a good idea to take

10 off his yellow ZNG boots, or else he wouldn't fare well. I think that

11 that applied as well to the camouflage T-shirt that he wore under the

12 white coat.

13 Q. Very well. Can you remember what time it was, roughly?

14 A. Morning, I think around 8.00 or 9.00. And as I told you

15 previously, I asked him about the events of the previous night in relation

16 to the wounded.

17 Q. No, no need to repeat that. We have that in the transcript. So

18 this was around 8.00 or 9.00?

19 A. Yes, roughly. In the morning hours.

20 Q. What happened to you after 9.00 when captain told you that due to

21 your safety?

22 A. Yes. A soldier remained by me, I was in the room.

23 Q. Very well. Were you alone in that room?

24 A. For a while. Until Ante Aric came, as I told you, and then the

25 other --

Page 7188

1 Q. Very well.

2 A. And then there were the two of us there.

3 Q. Mr. Njavro, how long were you in that room by yourself before

4 Mr. Aric arrived?

5 A. Not long. After a while Aric was taken away. I don't know what

6 time it was. But on that day, the 19th, Ante was led away.

7 Q. Mr. Njavro, would you please focus on my questions? I have a line

8 of questions, and I do not want anything extraneous to get in the way. So

9 on the 19th, in the morning, the captain told you that due to your safety

10 you were to stay in one room for reason of your safety, and then after a

11 while Mr. Aric was brought to you?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. How long did you stay there together?

14 A. I can't say. Less than an hour. I don't remember.

15 Q. All right. Do you remember when Ante Aric was led outside of that

16 room on the 19th?

17 A. I don't know exactly. I can't claim with certainty. All I can

18 say with certainty is that he was led away from that room.

19 Q. On the 19th?

20 A. Correct, on the 19th.

21 Q. 19th of November, 1991, on that day, was he brought back to your

22 room?

23 A. He was brought back on the following day.

24 Q. What time?

25 A. I think again in the morning hours. I'm not sure of the exact

Page 7189

1 time.

2 Q. From your previous evidence we learned that had on the 19th of

3 November you were locked up in that room until about 7.00 p.m., and that

4 at that time you left the room. I'd like to know how you learned that

5 there were no soldiers outside of the room.

6 A. The door was constantly open. This is how the troops went in,

7 went out, there was a lot of movement there. And in addition to that the

8 soldier who was there had to take some breaks, so clearly he wasn't there

9 the entire time.

10 Q. All right. So on the 19th, in the evening, after 7.00 p.m. you

11 left the room and went to tour the hospital; is that right?

12 A. Yes, but this tour of the hospital was rather a short one.

13 Normally hospital rounds, except for surgical rounds, last longer, under

14 normal circumstances. Surgical rounds don't take too long, unless there's

15 a problem with the hospital. But -- or with the patient. But if

16 everything is all right, surgeons make short rounds. However, on that

17 day, under the circumstances, and in view of the fact that I was locked up

18 in that room, I had to make a very quick round of the hospital, especially

19 in view of what was taken place the previous night.

20 Q. All right, Mr. Njavro. So how long did it take for you to

21 complete your round? Half an hour, an hour?

22 A. I couldn't say. I can't say either way. I don't think it would

23 be proper for me to put a specific time on it. I was quite rushed with

24 everything that was going on, so I couldn't keep track of time.

25 Q. All right. So you went back to this room?

Page 7190

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You went back alone, nobody took you there?

3 A. No.

4 Q. All right. And you stayed there until?

5 A. I stayed in that room until, as far as I can remember, the entire

6 night. We sat on the bench throughout the whole night, as far as I can

7 remember.

8 Q. You said, "We sat there." Who? You and?

9 A. Across there was a chair, so that some people who were still

10 inside on the 19th, among them there a lot of people who had arrived from

11 the town, so the place was crowded. People sat on top of each other, so

12 some of them came.

13 Q. Very well. Did you see on the 19th in the hospital Marin Vidic,

14 Bili?

15 A. It's possible, but I can't claim with certainty.

16 Q. On the 19th of November did you see Vesna Bosanac in the hospital?

17 A. Yes. On the 19th Vesna Bosanac was in the hospital. And I think

18 that she went to Negoslavci. She said, in passing, that she was going to

19 Negoslavci to talk with Colonel, if I remember the rank accurately, I

20 guess it was Colonel Mrksic.

21 Q. Do you know whether she went there?

22 A. As far as I can remember, a driver who unfortunately is no longer

23 alive, and I knew his family well, and the last name was Voloder, he took

24 her there.

25 Q. Did you have contact with Mrs. Bosanac on the 19th upon her return

Page 7191

1 from Negoslavci, did she talk to you about the discussions she had there,

2 and what you were supposed to do with the evacuation that had been agreed?

3 A. I can't remember now, but I think that Mrs. Bosanac did not return

4 that night on the 19th from Negoslavci. I think that she remained either

5 there in Negoslavci -- she remained there. But at any rate, she didn't

6 spend the night at the hospital.

7 Q. And when did you see her in the hospital?

8 A. I think on the 20th, early in the morning, at around 7.00. And

9 then following that we had the assembly in the plaster room.

10 Q. All right. So when you saw her on the 20th in the morning, before

11 the assembly in the plaster room, did you ask her about where she had

12 spent the night, what was going on, what were the news, what was the

13 course of negotiations?

14 A. Sir, I don't wish to be unpleasant, please don't take it the wrong

15 way, but under those circumstances where our main concern was how to save

16 the wounded, the sick, how to ensure that they stay alive, it was

17 ridiculous for me to try to talk to her about the discussions she had had.

18 Everything was happening quickly. She said that she was in Negoslavci,

19 and talked to Mr. Mrksic, and as far as I remember, the evacuation was to

20 unfold as had been agreed previously. As for additional details, I don't

21 remember that.

22 Q. All right. Mr. Njavro, do you remember whether on the 19th of

23 November, 1991, in the hospital in Vukovar you saw representatives of the

24 International Red Cross, specifically Mr. Borsinger?

25 A. I can't remember that.

Page 7192

1 Q. On the 19th of November did you see Mr. Sljivancanin in the

2 Vukovar Hospital?

3 A. I don't remember that. However, I think that on the 19th, in the

4 afternoon, they evacuated from the hospital all of those who had been

5 there earlier assisting in the work, and also some of those who had

6 arrived from the town, from the basements. We were told that everybody

7 was to assemble outside of the hospital, that this was an order of

8 Major Sljivancanin. But I think that I personally did not see him then.

9 Q. Thank you. So on the 19th you toured the hospital after 7.00 p.m.

10 While you did that, did you see any JNA officers inside the hospital? Did

11 you speak to any of them, perhaps?

12 A. No, I don't remember that on the 19th, whether we spoke to them,

13 except for the case in the morning, the incident with Captain Radic that I

14 told you about.

15 Q. Now, the preparations for the evacuation that you told us about,

16 we heard in the meantime a lot of evidence from other witnesses about

17 this. Do you know whether any defenders of Vukovar attempted to break

18 through several days prior to the evacuation, on the 16th and 17th, and

19 did you hear that those who did not succeed in this break-through came to

20 the hospital, discarded their weapons, and put on civilian clothes? Do

21 you know anything about that?

22 A. I couldn't say anything about that. I know that Marko Mandic, who

23 was a male nurse --

24 Q. Mr. Njavro, please answer my question. Do you know anything about

25 this or not?

Page 7193

1 A. Sir, would you please allow me to explain what I saw and

2 experienced, because if I don't tell you that there were people, medical

3 personnel from the hospital who went and came back, then I am not doing my

4 job well. I'm not telling you about what I know. I know about the

5 hospital staff. I don't know about other people, but I know about the

6 hospital staff who attempted to leave the hospital, to leave Vukovar, and

7 then they came back. Among them was Mr. Marko Mandic and his wife.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think it's time

10 for the break, and then we can continue afterwards.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note that there is a lot of

12 discussion going on among Defence teams and that creates a lot of

13 disturbance for us.

14 JUDGE PARKER: I hope Defence counsel will note that last comment

15 from the interpreters. Apparently there is audible discussion coming

16 through on the microphones and interfering with their hearing of what is

17 being asked and replied by the witness.

18 We will -- Mr. Moore, are you wanting to raise something?

19 MR. MOORE: I do, yes.


21 MR. MOORE: The next witness is P-021 being recalled. I think for

22 my learned friend that they indicate that they might be approximately

23 another half hour in cross-examination. Re-examination should not take a

24 large amount of time. We thought that the cross-examination would be

25 longer. The next witness we are obtaining, but there is an additional

Page 7194

1 problem that Ms. Tuma, who dealt with that witness on the last occasion,

2 has taken ill, and therefore I will be dealing with her. I have not had

3 an opportunity of speaking to the witness, even if it is in short form.

4 And I would like to have that opportunity at least to introduce myself and

5 deal with one or two matters. It doesn't have to be done now, we can deal

6 with this witness, but at the conclusion of this witness I would like a

7 short adjournment of perhaps half an hour, so that I can deal with that

8 point. I don't ask for a day's adjournment.

9 JUDGE PARKER: To minimise the interference with the progress, can

10 I suggest a longer break now?

11 MR. MOORE: You could certainly suggest it. I regret to say that

12 the witness is not here. I have asked for the witness to be here, and

13 therefore if we use the time that we have to cross-examine and re-examine

14 this witness, I would hope that the second break will arrive, and I can

15 deal with 021 in that --

16 JUDGE PARKER: We will resume at five minutes to 11.00.

17 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

18 --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

19 --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Bulatovic.

21 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. Mr. Njavro, I spent the last break going through the transcript.

23 There are two questions that I need to go back to, to clarify some issues.

24 It's about the soldier that we spoke about, Ivan Zivkovic. He was on

25 that convoy on the 19th of October, 1991. What I want to know is whether

Page 7195

1 you remember Ivan Zivkovic, what were his injuries, who treated him when

2 he arrived in the Vukovar Hospital?

3 A. I do remember a man named Ivan Zivkovic, but I remember a lot of

4 other names of wounded persons. I don't think I could specify his

5 injuries though.

6 Q. Do you remember Ivica Arbanas, does that name ring a bell?

7 A. Yes, it does.

8 Q. Who is he?

9 A. I think Ivica Arbanas was a member of the ZNG.

10 Q. Very well. Mr. Njavro, would it jog your memory in relation to

11 Zivkovic, if you tried to remember this: Did Ivica Arbanas come to the

12 hospital at the time and did he speak to Ivan Zivkovic, just to see if

13 we're talking about the same person, sir?

14 A. I can't confirm. I can't say that I saw Ivica Arbanas talk to

15 Ivan Zivkovic. I don't wish to repeat myself, but there was a large

16 number of wounded persons streaming into the hospital, and it was

17 difficult to keep track of who was talking to whom.

18 Q. Can you remember if Ivica Arbanas came to the hospital during that

19 period of time?

20 A. Yes, he did come a couple of times. Not very often, though. I'm

21 sure about that.

22 Q. Do you perhaps remember someone taking Ivan Zivkovic away from the

23 hospital to be interviewed?

24 A. I don't know about that.

25 Q. Very well.

Page 7196

1 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to go

2 briefly into private session, if possible.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

4 [Private session]

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 7197

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 [Open session]

17 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Mr. Njavro, you said a while ago you didn't remember seeing Mr.

19 Sljivancanin at the hospital on the 19th of November, right?

20 A. Yes, but as I said --

21 Q. No, please. Just answer my question briefly. During your

22 testimony here Mr. Borovic in particular was showing you portions of your

23 own book, the book that you wrote. The book entitled, "Heads Bowed, Hands

24 Behind Backs." And it appears that your book contains not only your own

25 experiences, but also the allegations of some other people. Specifically

Page 7198

1 on page 141 I found a portion where you claim that on the 19th of November

2 Major Sljivancanin arrived at the hospital and addressed you. I

3 quote: "Doctor, I have a special reason for wanting to talk to you."

4 Does that jog your memory?

5 A. Yes, of course it does, and it's not the first time that I have to

6 say this. And not only here. It's possible that I may be wrong about

7 some dates. There were things like that happening, and the editor changed

8 some dates as he saw fit. I can now say that this was on the 20th, the

9 morning of the 20th, following the meeting in the plaster room. That's

10 when he told me this. I remember his words clearly and I stand by my

11 previous statement. This was on the 20th of November, 1991. The morning

12 of the 20th.

13 Q. He had a special reason for talking to you, so did he end up

14 talking to you or not?

15 A. No, he didn't.

16 Q. Did you talk to Mr. Sljivancanin at all?

17 A. Not after that.

18 Q. What about before that?

19 A. Before that he gave a speech, a monologue in the plaster room.

20 Q. I'm talking about you and Mr. Sljivancanin, any contact or

21 communication, just the two of you?

22 A. No except for what I have just mentioned.

23 Q. Are you saying it wasn't you who told Mr. Sljivancanin about

24 members of the ZNG in disguise who were in the hospital at the time?

25 A. I don't think there were any, so I couldn't have told him.

Page 7199

1 Q. What about the JNA people at the hospital on the 19th or on the

2 20th, because you say there might be some confusion about the dates. Did

3 you tell any of them that Mile Dedakovic was in the hospital?

4 A. How could I possibly have told anyone anything like this?

5 Everybody knew that Mile Dedakovic had long left Vukovar. He left early

6 in October, as far as I remember.

7 Q. Who told you about that? Who informed you about Mile Dedakovic

8 leaving Vukovar?

9 A. Sir, counsel, there was permanent, ongoing telephone communication

10 with Zagreb and with Vinkovci. One knew this sort of thing. Dr. Bosanac

11 was sending out warnings and appeals to a number of international

12 institutions. She spoke to Zagreb, she spoke to our command. She spoke

13 to the health ministry's Main Staff, and they were touring the front

14 lines. She knew that Mile Dedakovic had left Vukovar, and she knew where

15 he was.

16 Q. Did you tell anyone that Marin Vidic, Bili, was in the hospital at

17 the time?

18 A. I don't know who I possibly could have said this to. Somebody may

19 have seen him at the hospital. He wasn't hiding, he was openly moving

20 about the hospital. There would have been no need for me to tell anyone

21 that Marin Vidic, Bili, or Dr. Bosanac were there. It was normal.

22 Q. Did you tell anyone on those days, the 19th or the 20th of

23 November, about the fact that some persons were shamming wounds and that

24 their false wounds were dressed and bandaged just so they could pass

25 themselves off as wounded. Do you know anything about that?

Page 7200

1 A. As I said, there had been a promise to Dr. Bosanac from the Main

2 Staff in Zagreb that there would be an evacuation of the wounded, sick,

3 civilians, and medical staff. If that indeed was the case, and why

4 shouldn't have been, given the situation at Vukovar at the time, what was

5 eventually done was the usual thing you do when you have to provide

6 transport for people who are seriously wounded. Plaster-casts are

7 applied, their wounds are bandaged, and nothing outside this was done.

8 Only the usual, established practice in such cases.

9 Q. Sir, if I tell you that Dr. Bosanac, while testifying here, even

10 yesterday, said that on the 19th of November, 1991, Mr. Sljivancanin

11 talked to her in the hospital, and that he arrived together with

12 Mr. Borsinger, and that she had lists of wounded persons in the hospital

13 and that she gave one copy to Mr. Borsinger, and that Mr. Sljivancanin

14 took all the remaining copies, and that this was in the afternoon on the

15 19th of November. Would you at least allow for the possibility that this

16 was, in fact, the case?

17 A. Why would I doubt anything that Dr. Bosanac claims? But you know

18 where I was at the time, in which room.

19 Q. Let's go back to the return of Mr. Aric on the morning of the

20 20th. What time was it?

21 A. I don't know the exact time Mr. Aric was returned. I'm not sure

22 if it was in the morning or in the afternoon. What I do remember is that

23 there was this military vehicle.

24 Q. I will be moving on to that later on.

25 A. I don't know the time. I don't remember the exact time.

Page 7201

1 Q. Did you talk to him when he returned to that room?

2 A. He said what I've already mentioned. If you want me to, I can

3 repeat that for you.

4 Q. No need, thank you. Do you remember Dr. Ivezic?

5 A. Yes. I think he was a major, or a colonel, but I wasn't sure

6 about his rank. He took over the command of the hospital, as far as I

7 could tell, based on his behaviour. I think he was a surgeon from Novi

8 Sad.

9 Q. Did you see him at the hospital?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What was he wearing?

12 A. A military uniform.

13 Q. Were the European monitors there by then by any chance? Do you

14 remember that?

15 A. I don't remember.

16 Q. In addition to Dr. Ivezic did you see any other officers arriving

17 with him, people who were doctors?

18 A. I remember one particular anaesthesiologist who said he was from

19 the military medical academy from Belgrade. He set off with me. That was

20 on the 20th. Our duty was to record all the remaining wounded in the

21 hospital, to make a list. I was taking down their names, and he followed.

22 The wounded were asked what sort of treatment they wished to receive, and

23 where.

24 Q. Thank you. Do you remember if these doctors, Dr. Ivezic and the

25 other doctors who arrived with him, interviewed any doctors of the Vukovar

Page 7202

1 Hospital such as yourself, Dr. Bosanac? Did they ask to have any

2 documents?

3 A. They didn't interview me, they didn't talk to me, but they did

4 talk to a number of Serb doctors who remained at the hospital throughout

5 these horrors of war that we are talking about.

6 Q. Can we please have Exhibit 338 placed on our screens? This is a

7 photograph, and the number is 0036-6995.

8 Mr. Njavro, when the photograph comes up, please have a look and

9 tell us what you see. Do you recognise anybody in the photograph, where

10 was it taken? Exhibit 338, please. Yes, this set is the one, the

11 photograph number is 0036-6995. Yes, that's right.

12 Can you see the photograph, Dr. Njavro?

13 A. No, nothing. I can see a globe on my screen.

14 Q. So it hasn't come up on your screen yet?

15 A. Yes, I have it now.

16 Q. Is this Dr. Ivezic?

17 A. He was a man of a certain age, but whether this is him, I can't

18 say. I can't say for sure.

19 Q. Where was the photograph made?

20 A. The photograph was taken in the so-called nuclear shelter, I

21 think.

22 Q. Do you remember when this photograph could have been taken, since

23 we see the man in the JNA uniform on this photograph?

24 A. I can't say. I can't even say that the man on this picture is

25 wearing a JNA uniform. It's not clear to me.

Page 7203

1 Q. All right. Well, I will not insist on this in that case.

2 You said that your wife and mother-in-law came to the hospital on

3 the 17th?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. On the 20th of November did any members of the JNA or

6 Mr. Sljivancanin ask, request that you and them be transported to Zagreb?

7 A. No. I didn't see him after the speech in the plaster room, and

8 the instance where he told me where to stay. After that I had no further

9 contact with Major Sljivancanin.

10 Q. All right. So you saw him in the plaster room in the morning?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. How was he dressed?

13 A. As far as I remember, this is quite a sensitive time that we are

14 describing now, but I think that he wore a camouflage uniform.

15 Q. Did he have any rank insignia?

16 A. I think that he did, I think that there was an inscription, a sort

17 of a badge somewhere on the side, whether he also had something on his

18 epaulets, I don't remember.

19 Q. Do you remember the inscription on that badge or plaque, was there

20 his name or something else?

21 A. I don't remember what was written. I think he had a plaque, I

22 probably did read it at the time, but I can't remember any longer.

23 Q. Did he have any other insignia, any other symbol on his uniform

24 that you registered?

25 A. No. But I did register his appearance, his face, and this is

Page 7204

1 something I will remember for as long as I live.

2 Q. Very well. Let us now go back to the 18th, to your first

3 encounter. Did you know at the time the name of the major who talked to

4 you outside of the hospital and to Mr. Borsinger?

5 A. No, at the time I didn't know that this was Major Sljivancanin.

6 Q. All right. Now, tell us, when did you learn that, and when did

7 you link this?

8 A. The moment it was said, and when Mr. Borsinger was told this, it

9 was then that we learned that there was a commander. Earlier Mrs. Bosanac

10 spoke to Mr. Mrksic on the phone, and as I've told you, they reached a

11 certain agreement, and it was then said that he was the commander of the

12 entire operation against Vukovar, the attack on Vukovar. So the logical

13 question that emerged was who is this new person that suddenly surfaced.

14 Q. Mr. Njavro, I have to interrupt you.

15 A. Please let me conclude.

16 Q. No, I will let you conclude everything that is relevant for my

17 questions. When did you learn that the person that you talked to on the

18 18th was called Sljivancanin?

19 A. I learned that on the 19th in the morning. And I think that I

20 already gave evidence about this when I described the arrival of Captain

21 Radic.

22 Q. Very well. Who told you on the 20th in the morning that there

23 would be a meeting of medical personnel?

24 A. I'm not sure who said that we had to assemble, pursuant to the

25 orders of Major Sljivancanin. All medical personnel was to assemble in

Page 7205

1 the plaster room.

2 Q. Do you remember when you arrived, did you arrive on your own, or

3 were you accompanied by someone?

4 A. There were a lot of us medical personnel who could fit into that

5 room. That's not a very large room, but nevertheless it was full. There

6 were a lot of us employed at the hospital, medical staff.

7 Q. Do you remember what time it was when the meeting started?

8 A. I'm not sure, but it was in the morning, could have been 8.00.

9 Q. Do you know how long the meeting lasted for?

10 A. It's hard to say. Not long. I don't think it was longer than one

11 hour.

12 Q. Very well. Did any of the doctors that you mentioned, such as

13 Dr. Ivezic, anybody else, were they also present with Sljivancanin at the

14 meeting?

15 A. I can't say. As I have told you, there were a lot of us medical

16 personnel in the room and it would be hard to say who else was there. I

17 mean the officers from the JNA, I simply don't remember.

18 Q. Do you remember that on the 20th some other JNA officers arrived

19 later on, they inspected the hospital, talked to some doctors, and so on?

20 A. As I have told you, I know Dr. Ivezic. I mentioned him. There

21 was also an anaesthesiologist from Belgrade. Now, whether there were some

22 other doctors there, it's possible. I simply don't remember. I don't

23 remember whether they conducted any interviews, went to see the wounded,

24 and so on. I don't remember.

25 Q. A witness told us something here, and I will now put a question in

Page 7206

1 relation to that to you. Did the Vukovar Hospital, among its equipment,

2 have a refrigerator where human organs were kept?

3 A. No. Whoever said something like this had to be, and I have to use

4 strong language here, is a person who was out of his senses, who had no

5 more contact with his brain.

6 Q. So you had nothing of the sort in your hospital?

7 A. No. Naturally we had a pathology department where they might have

8 kept temporarily people who died in order to perform an autopsy on them.

9 Unless you have in mind the blood, because blood, after all, is a human

10 organ, and we did have some blood supplies for transfusion. So in some

11 sense, yes, it is a human organ, and we did have that. But we had that

12 only up to a point, and then we ran out of blood supplies.

13 Q. That's precisely what I want to ask you. When did the blood

14 supplies run out?

15 A. Blood supplies, that was toward the end, 10 to 15 days before the

16 end. But you should ask the transfusion specialist who was in charge of

17 that.

18 Q. All right. You mentioned the pathology department where autopsies

19 were performed. How long -- for how long did they perform autopsies?

20 A. As far as I remember, they did not do any autopsies in the most

21 difficult times. That room was hit by shells, so they really did not have

22 any working conditions, and the pathologist felt it was unsafe, and I

23 don't think that under those circumstances he could have done the job.

24 Q. All right. Does that mean that on the 20th, in the morning, there

25 were not corpses in the hospital?

Page 7207

1 A. I don't know whether somebody died in the meantime. I can't say

2 that with certainty. We always had seriously ill patients and the wounded

3 who were moribund, so it could be that somebody died. I, as a surgeon,

4 for many reasons, was not allowed to have any contact with such

5 individuals. In the vicinity there was a building where we took corpses

6 of those who had died in the hospital, but also corpses of those who had

7 been killed somewhere else in the city, and then their bodies were taken

8 there.

9 Q. Dr. Njavro, I have to ask you this: I'm now referring only to the

10 20th, the 20th of November. On that day there was no refrigerator where

11 blood supplies were kept, there was no pathology department. There was no

12 section of the building where you could have kept human organs. Is this a

13 correct conclusion that I'm drawing, just say yes or no.

14 A. How could we have had that? There was no electrical supply. Even

15 if we did have a refrigerator, we would not have been able to use it.

16 Q. You said that whoever said that he saw something like that on the

17 20th of November, a refrigerator, where human organs were kept, and that

18 there was a stench coming out of there because there was no electricity,

19 you say that whoever said that was out of his mind?

20 A. Yes. I used a figurative description. It was impossible to keep

21 any human organs because in order to preserve them, one needs a transplant

22 specialists, and this is advanced medicine, and we had no such experts at

23 the time in Vukovar.

24 Q. All right. Dr. Njavro, I know that, please don't misunderstand

25 me, this is something that we heard from a witness, and I'm not going to

Page 7208

1 repeat this witness's name.

2 On that day in the plaster room, was Dr. Neda Striber present?

3 A. I'm not sure. She's a petite woman, and perhaps she was there,

4 but I didn't notice her.

5 Q. Do you remember whether Binazija Kolesar was there?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you remember Mara Bucko, was she present?

8 A. She's a nurse, I know who she is; I think she was there, I'm not

9 sure.

10 Q. Do you know whether Dr. Bosanac was there?

11 A. Yes, she was there.

12 Q. What about Dr. Ivankovic?

13 A. He was.

14 Q. Dr. Stanojevic?

15 A. I don't remember Mirko, I don't remember him.

16 Q. This speech that Mr. Sljivancanin gave, as you told us, the

17 monologue, did he mention in it that the doctors and medical personnel

18 could remain in the hospital working?

19 A. I don't remember this portion of the speech any longer. I just

20 remember the colourful words that were used, namely that the army was

21 there, that he was in charge of them, that there were different uniforms

22 there and so on.

23 Q. All right. You told us all about that. Let's now clarify about

24 Marin Vidic. Did you see him at the hospital on the 20th?

25 A. I don't think that he was there on the 20th, but I'm not fully

Page 7209

1 certain. I can't be adamant about it.

2 Q. What about Stipe Pole and Josip Gazo were they at the hospital?

3 A. I most likely -- or rather had I seen him, I would have known that

4 they were there. But I didn't see them. Josip Gazo could not have been

5 there, if we have in mind the same person. There are several person the

6 with that last name. If we have the same person in mind, then he had left

7 Vukovar long before that. Three months prior to that.

8 Q. What about Stipe Pole?

9 A. He was there until the end. As I said to Mr. Borovic, when the

10 MUP building was demolished, he moved to a building across from my

11 apartment flat, and that building belonged to Vupik, to the agricultural

12 concern.

13 Q. Mr. Njavro, you said in your statement that on the 20th you spoke

14 to an Italian man, a representative of the ICRC?

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. Can you tell us what time it was and did this take place inside

17 the hospital or outside?

18 A. Inside the hospital. He was a short-ish man of dark complexion.

19 I spoke some Italian, was able to understand some, and he said that he was

20 an ICRC representative. When I went around with the anaesthesiologist

21 from the military medical academy in Belgrade when we were recording the

22 names of those who remained, and you should know that at the time the

23 hospital was half vacant, a lot of people had already gone. And -- and

24 this anaesthesiologist told me to write in two copies, one copy was given

25 to the Italian. I thought he was an Italian, that was my impression, I

Page 7210

1 didn't ask him. But he was the ICRC representative. And the other copy

2 was given to the anaesthesiologist.

3 Q. Mr. Njavro, you spoke to us about that?

4 A. It was in the afternoon.

5 Q. I'm interested in the meeting in the plaster room. After it

6 concluded, how long after that did the ICRC representative arrive?

7 A. This was in the afternoon, it could have been 2.00 or 3.00.

8 Q. Thank you. What did you do after the meeting in the plaster room?

9 You said it began at about 8.00 and went on for about an hour, so from

10 9.00 on?

11 A. It's what Captain Radic had said previously and what

12 Major Sljivancanin now repeated to me. I stayed in that room, I had a

13 view of the emergency entrance. I saw what was going on there.

14 Q. Did you help with the evacuation?

15 A. No. I was unable to. However, at about 2.00 or 3.00 in the

16 afternoon there were some wounded left, and another fellow doctor was

17 taking them to a truck. His name was Tomislav Vlahovic, a surgeon from

18 Zagreb. He was in charge of that truck. We placed the wounded on that

19 truck, and that was the last bit that I helped with, but that was all.

20 Q. At the time you spoke to the Italian from the Red Cross, do you

21 remember seeing Mr. Borsinger there?

22 A. No, I don't remember.

23 Q. Do you remember seeing any European monitors?

24 A. I don't remember that either.

25 Q. Mr. Njavro, what about the name of Sasa Jovic, does that mean

Page 7211

1 anything to you?

2 A. Jovic?

3 Q. Sasa.

4 A. I think Sasa Jovic was a young soldier, perhaps he was even a JNA

5 sergeant who had been seriously wounded, and I treated this young man at

6 the hospital. If that's the person that I have in mind.

7 Q. Yes, that's the very person, Sasa Jovic. Do you perhaps know

8 under what circumstances he was wounded and what the injuries were that he

9 sustained?

10 A. I can't remember the circumstances, but I know that he was

11 abandoned and that it was the ZNG who brought limb to the hospital. We

12 took charge of him, we treated him successfully, I hope. I hope that his

13 health is now good, that he is a healthy young man, not too young anymore,

14 perhaps.

15 Q. Do you know if he was enjoying any form of special protection

16 while at the Vukovar Hospital?

17 A. If there is a war going on, then human relations tend to work in a

18 different way, tensions are created which can lead to clashes. It is for

19 this reason that we took Sasa Jovic and Srdjan Miljkovic, another JNA

20 soldier, he had sustained a serious wound to his lungs. We had a special

21 room for those two, they were kept separate from the rest just in order to

22 prevent any incidents from occurring. On the 20th, or on the 19th, the

23 JNA took charge of them when they came and I have no idea what happened to

24 them later.

25 Q. This brings to mind the testimony of a witness here. Do you

Page 7212

1 remember on the 19th of November whether there was a foreign TV crew

2 visiting the hospital? Do you remember any cameramen or anything like

3 that on the 19th?

4 A. It strikes me as possible, but I don't remember.

5 Q. What happened after 3.00 p.m.? What happened to you on the 20th?

6 A. It was getting dark because this was winter-time. A military

7 vehicle drove up, may have been a jeep, but I'm not certain. And a lady

8 appeared, a lady officer. She entered the hospital. She had arrived with

9 Captain Radic. Ante Aric and I were taken away. He had been brought back

10 to the hospital earlier on.

11 Q. On the 20th you are in this meeting in the plaster room. What

12 happens -- what's happening to Ante Aric? When did you see him again?

13 A. I don't remember when I saw him again, but I'm certain that I saw

14 him when we were inside that military vehicle. We were together inside

15 that vehicle, there was this lady officer driving us back to the Vukovar

16 barracks, back to Sajmiste.

17 Q. How long did you stay there, how long did you stay in the

18 barracks?

19 A. For about an hour. It was pitch dark already, and Dr. Bosanac

20 joined us in the Vukovar barracks at this point.

21 Q. So where did they take you and was it the same vehicle that they

22 used?

23 A. I think they took us, but I'm not certain if it was the same

24 vehicle or an APC, but they took us to Negoslavci. Aric got off the APC

25 in Negoslavci, and stayed there. Dr. Bosanac and I were put in that same

Page 7213

1 APC and taken to Sid. We spent some time in Sid and we were again joined

2 by Ante Aric. After this they took us in a paddy-wagon of sorts. With

3 benches inside, wooden benches on either side. And an opening with

4 curtains that the driver and the passenger could open and close. So there

5 we are, leaving Sid for Belgrade. We read the road signs, the sign posts,

6 and we realise that we are on our way to Belgrade. Sometime past

7 midnight, it's really difficult to say, I wasn't paying much attention to

8 that, to be quite honest, but it was the middle of the night. We were

9 taken to Topcider, or to Dedinje. We eventually arrived outside a

10 barracks, I think it was the one at Topcider, but I can't be certain. We

11 parked right there, the driver and the escort got off, some military

12 officers, I don't know about their ranks because the curtain was closed.

13 They walked up to the barracks gate, they spent some time there talking,

14 and we were waiting to see what would become of us. After some time they

15 returned, they turned around, they turned the vehicle around and we were

16 driven back from Belgrade to Sremska Mitrovica. It wasn't before 3.00 or

17 4.00 a.m. That we reached Sremska Mitrovica.

18 Q. Fine. Let me ask you this: Sid, Belgrade and Sremska Mitrovica,

19 Dr. Bosanac, Aric and you all together, right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Is there a soldier guarding you? You are sitting in the back,

22 shut up. Was there a soldier with you?

23 A. I think there was a soldier in the front seat, there was the

24 driver and there was somebody else too, some security or escort.

25 Q. You talked about arriving in Sremska Mitrovica and what happened

Page 7214

1 there. You were even offered the option of working there as a doctor, of

2 setting up an infirmary or something. But you asked to be assigned

3 another doctor to give you a hand with that, right?

4 A. After some days in Mitrovica, after some days of interviews, as we

5 were being taken to one of these interviews, we met somebody who

6 introduced himself as the chief medical officer in Sremska Mitrovica. I

7 think he was a major or a colonel. His first name was Gojko. I forget

8 his last name. I know what sort of a doctor he was. He was a specialist

9 for pulmonary disease.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Can the speakers please talk one at a time?

11 Q. Does the name Sadika Bilus mean anything to you?

12 A. Yes. Two or three days later there were a lot of wounded with

13 their wounds festering on account of neglect. There was a -- there were

14 some cases of sepsis, and I asked around to see if there were any other

15 doctors there. So that they could give me a hand with things that I

16 wasn't so good at.

17 Q. Mr. Njavro, please let's not waste time? Do you know Dr. Bilus

18 from the Vukovar Hospital --

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Was at the meeting in the plaster-room?

21 A. I don't remember.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note. Could the speakers be asked

23 to speak one at a time? Thank you.

24 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we seem to be having

25 a problem with the transcript.

Page 7215

1 JUDGE PARKER: The transcript seems to be having a problem with

2 you, Mr. Bulatovic.

3 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] You're quite right there,

4 Your Honour. We'll try to deal with this.

5 Q. Let us simplify matters, Dr. Njavro. You knew Sadika Bilus from

6 the Vukovar Hospital, right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What was she doing at the Vukovar Hospital?

9 A. She was a specialist for internal diseases.

10 Q. Did you see her on the 20th of November, 1991, at the Vukovar

11 Hospital?

12 A. I don't remember.

13 Q. Do you remember seeing her at Sremska Mitrovica? I imagine that

14 was the 21st or 22nd or the 23rd, whatever?

15 A. It was several days after the rest of us had arrived in the camp,

16 at Mitrovica that I saw her. Several days later, as I said.

17 Q. How were your relations with Miss or Mrs. Bilus?

18 A. Mrs. Bilus. She was a very good specialist. However, back at the

19 hospital when there were so many things to keep in mind, and to see to,

20 all the wounded, all the sick, she was sometimes filming stuff without

21 even asking for permission. I think she should have asked for permission

22 to be allowed to film people, to film the wounded. We told her that was

23 not a good thing to film people, the wounded and the sick, without having

24 obtained permission. We cautioned her that this might be unlawful, in

25 fact.

Page 7216

1 Q. Do you know why she did that?

2 A. I have no idea.

3 Q. Did you ever talk to her about this?

4 A. No, but there were suspicions that some things happened that

5 weren't supposed to happen without anybody meaning to do this.

6 Q. What exactly do you mean by that?

7 A. I mean that persons who were seriously wounded or had suffered a

8 massacre ended up on TV screens without their permission or approval.

9 Q. Who could have aired this footage?

10 A. I don't know. She probably gave these films, these tapes to

11 someone for them to be aired.

12 Q. You saw her in Mitrovica, right?

13 A. Quite right.

14 Q. What did she look like?

15 A. Like a lady. She was all dressed up in her best finery, unlike

16 the rest of us. We didn't look much, we hardly even washed. We couldn't

17 stand close to each other because the smell was that bad.

18 Q. I will quote something from your book, and you tell me if the

19 description fits Mrs. Bilus: "A lady walked down the prison stairs all

20 dressed up wearing make-up with a perfect hair-do in a new costume wearing

21 high-heels." Is that what you wrote at the time?

22 A. Yes, that's what I wrote. She told me she'd been to Negoslavci

23 before she arrived in Mitrovica. I hadn't had a proper wash in quite some

24 time. So this was a chance to pay some more attention to my personal

25 hygiene. That's what it looked like at the time. I may have exaggerated

Page 7217

1 a little bit, but she certainly was different from us. She was much

2 neater.

3 Q. Was she involved in the work of the war infirmary or surgery?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did you ask her how she came to look that way, how she obtained

6 that privilege?

7 A. I asked her where she came to Mitrovica, she said she'd been

8 placed in a solitary cell, that there was a bathroom there, that she could

9 wash and dress properly, comb her hair. Which is less than you could say

10 of the rest of us, because our conditions were somewhat different. We

11 couldn't even dream of anything like that.

12 Q. I understand that. That's precisely why I'm asking the question.

13 Did you ask her how she got to be granted that privilege?

14 A. I may as well have, but I don't remember the question or the

15 answer.

16 Q. Another quote, another portion from your book. She told you that

17 the reason for her enjoying this sort of privilege was that, as you say in

18 your book, "She said that she had told them everything she knew." That's

19 one thing. You go on to say: "Likewise the prison administration or the

20 camp administration were familiar with the fact that we had been in touch

21 all the time with Vukovar defence commanders." And then further down the

22 tapes that she recorded, the tapes that you're talking about, ended up in

23 the hands of the enemy, and it was based on these tapes that the enemy

24 could identify a lot of people whom they found to be of interest and who

25 were locked up in prison somewhere. It was because of that tape, and

Page 7218

1 because there were no records that they couldn't prove that anyone was a

2 member of the guards of the reserve forces or the MUP. We were quite

3 surprised, even shocked to hear her story. Just because none of us had

4 any documents that might have jeopardised the safety of any of the

5 prisoners in Sremska Mitrovica."

6 Do you remember that?

7 A. I think this is quite simple. When this was said, the bit that

8 just read out, and there were some 100 of us in the room, I'm not going to

9 speak of the conditions, I don't think the Trial Chamber is interested in

10 that. But I know that after she left in the following days when they went

11 to be questioned, some individuals came back with serious injuries.

12 Therefore, it was logical to conclude what you just read out, what is

13 written there.

14 Q. While in Mitrovica, did you see any other persons we mentioned

15 here during your evidence? Did you see Mr. Vidic?

16 A. No, no, I didn't.

17 Q. Mrs. Bosanac?

18 A. Not even her. Even though there were women who came to seek

19 medical treatment from me and they said that Dr. Bosanac was with them.

20 Q. All right. Dr. Njavro, we're now going to turn to a technical

21 issue, medical documentation created in the hospital. Can you tell us

22 something about that, how was a wounded patient admitted? What kind of

23 information was entered, and into what kind of books? Did each ward in

24 the hospital have their registration book and were these records compared

25 in terms of the initial diagnosis and the final one?

Page 7219

1 A. I'm going to repeat what I said previously. We had two

2 registration books. The first one is where the personal particulars were

3 recorded, and then medical history information was recorded, and then the

4 third type of information was how the illness or the accident occurred,

5 and where. That was the first book.

6 The second book, in cases where we had seriously wounded persons,

7 was the surgical book, and this is something that each surgical team had

8 in their surgery rooms. This is the book where they would normally enter

9 a preliminary diagnosis and then a final one. They would also briefly

10 record what was established and done in the course of this surgery, who

11 operated on the patient, who assisted during the operation, what type

12 anesthesia was given and so on.

13 Q. What about log-books for anaesthesiologists, did they have one?

14 A. Yes. They recorded anesthesia given to a patient, and then when a

15 patient was about to be discharged, you know prior to that we had medical

16 charts where everything would be recorded; the course of the treatment,

17 any problems and so on. This would also be recorded in the medical chart.

18 Anaesthesiologists also had their recording books. Precisely what was

19 administered to a patient, under whose instructions and so on.

20 Q. All right. So the information concerning the admittance of a

21 patient, a patient who needed a surgical procedure and therefore needed

22 anaesthesia, were these records reconciled, did anybody compare them to

23 see the records from the admittance and then the records from surgical

24 procedure and reconcile them anaesthesia information?

25 A. If anybody was administered anaesthesia, it is unlikely that that

Page 7220

1 wasn't recorded. However, in the first book, in the book of admittance,

2 anybody could look into that book, even the physicians who were on --

3 undergoing their residency treatment. They would write in a diagnosis,

4 for example, they would say that something was going on with the abdomen,

5 and there was a minor wound there. Looking in the book, this physician

6 could conclude that the treatment was not a very long one or a very

7 detailed one. However, if one took a more detailed look, you know, they

8 could come to the conclusion that this required serious treatment.

9 Q. I am afraid that we misunderstood each other. Mr. Njavro, all I'm

10 interested in is this: Was it possible for a patient who was admitted and

11 who required a surgical procedure to be registered in the book of

12 admittance without being registered in the book of anaesthesia?

13 A. Yes, if it involved light injuries. For example, local

14 anaesthesia could have been administered without it being recorded.

15 Q. Outside of these cases, if total anaesthesia was administered,

16 what then?

17 A. In that case it had to be recorded fully.

18 Q. All right. We spoke about your departure from the Vukovar

19 Hospital and then we spoke about how you were set free later on. Did you

20 ever come across any documents from the Vukovar Hospital from this period

21 of time?

22 A. Yes, in a sense that a spoke to some people. Let me remind the

23 Trial Chamber of something that I spoke about earlier. When you asked me

24 about the 19th of October, when the convoy of Medecins sans Frontieres

25 took some seriously wounded people outside of Vukovar, all of them had

Page 7221

1 either a discharge letter on them, or some other documentation. Please

2 let me conclude, because this is in a way an answer to your question. And

3 yes, this is the type of documentation that I did come across later on in

4 Zagreb and in Croatia.

5 Q. No, no, no. I'm speaking of the documentation that remained in

6 the Vukovar Hospital. Not the ones that the evacuated patients took with

7 them.

8 A. No. The documentation that remained in the Vukovar Hospital,

9 which, as I said, was taken away and ended up at the military medical

10 academy in Belgrade, according to the information that we have, I know

11 nothing about that documentation. I never saw it again.

12 Q. You, as a doctor, if somebody were to ask for some kind of a

13 letter, a certificate, about treatment received, would you have been able

14 to issue such kind of a certificate, a letter, without having the

15 documentation at your disposal?

16 A. Yes, I would have been able to do that in relation to many of the

17 patients. I used to have a great memory. It used to be the case, not any

18 longer. So up to 19 --

19 Q. No, no, no, I'm just asking, would you have been able to do that?

20 A. Yes, in some cases, yes.

21 Q. Mr. Njavro, what were your relations with Dr. Ivankovic like?

22 A. I believe they were quite proper. I have respect for

23 Dr. Ivankovic, I consider him to be a very good surgeon, he practiced his

24 profession very well. I have nothing else to say.

25 Q. You said that proceedings were instituted against you in Belgrade

Page 7222

1 and that Dr. Ivankovic came as a witness to testify against you.

2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't hear what the witness

3 said. The speakers overlapped.

4 Q. If I were to tell you that Mr. Ivankovic was heard before the

5 military court?

6 A. I don't know what he stated, Mr. Ivankovic.

7 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, page 63 of the

8 transcript, line 11, do not reflect the answer that the witness gave. Dr.

9 Njavro said, "No." And if needed, I can put the question again. The

10 question pertained to whether Mr. Ivankovic appeared as a witness in the

11 trial. Mr. Njavro said, "No."

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I did not see him in Belgrade.

13 We're speaking of Belgrade now.

14 Q. Do you know whether he testified at all in the court in Belgrade

15 in the case against you?

16 A. No, I have no information to that effect.

17 Q. From 1992 until nowadays, have you ever seen Dr. Ivankovic?

18 A. I think that I saw Dr. Ivankovic when negotiations were held about

19 peaceful reintegration. I think that it was then that we met, we needed

20 to discuss how to fit the existing medical system into the medical system

21 of Croatia. And naturally we also met once we returned to the Vukovar

22 Hospital when everybody who had been expelled from Vukovar was enabled to

23 work there again. Incidentally, I have a statement given by Mr.

24 Ivankovic, I don't know whether he changed his opinion in the meantime,

25 but in this statement he expressed his opinion about me. And it was a

Page 7223

1 positive one, just like my opinion of him. So I'm glad that at least at a

2 professional level we seem to understand each other.

3 Q. Yes, but as far as I remember, there was something negative

4 concerning a plot of land that was given to him?

5 A. No, that wasn't my comment. You know that doctors seem to be --

6 seem to have a lot of solidarity. Seem to have a lot of solidarity among

7 them, they seem to generally respect each other. What you stated was the

8 position of the citizens of Vukovar.

9 Q. All right. Mr. Njavro, did you have any contact with the security

10 service of the defence ministry of Croatia concerning the events in

11 Vukovar? Did you have any contact with them before you came to testify

12 here?

13 A. Categorically, no. I never, never had any contact either with

14 officials from the Ministry of Defence with even from the Ministry of

15 Defence or from any other organs. We never discussed the testimony given

16 here, nothing was discussed about the trial held here. I can assure you of

17 that.

18 Q. Did you have any contact with the Security Service of the defence

19 ministry about the events in Vukovar, excluding testimony given here, did

20 you have any contact with them?

21 A. I don't think I had any contact with the Ministry of Defence. As

22 the Chamber knows, and as I spoke in my introduction, I was health

23 minister, and I had other business to take care of.

24 Q. So can I conclude that you never talked to anyone from the

25 Security Service of the Ministry of Defence of Croatia about the events in

Page 7224

1 Vukovar?

2 A. Never. I never had any talks with them. And I have to say that

3 I'm surprised about that.

4 Q. So am I. I have just one more question, and we have reached the

5 end, the final end, Mr. Njavro.

6 Do you remember how many statements in total you gave about the

7 events in Vukovar?

8 A. It's hard to say. I wouldn't be able to answer that question.

9 Q. I don't want to break any more promises, but let me try to put it

10 this way: Did you ever testify before any court in Croatia?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

14 questions for this witness.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Bulatovic.

16 Mr. Borovic.

17 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, yesterday, late in the

18 evening, we received an additional statement related to the witness we

19 heard today. This is pursuant to Rule 60(A)(ii) [as interpreted] we

20 received it only in English, but that's not a problem. Transcript reads

21 Rule 68, it should be Rule 66(A)(ii), although maybe it should have been

22 submitted under Rule 68, at least that is the defence position. The name

23 of the witness is Radomir Dejanovic. Legal interests of my client require

24 that I put additional questions to this witness pertaining to this

25 statement that was disclosed to us.

Page 7225

1 JUDGE PARKER: Any objection, Mr. Moore?

2 MR. MOORE: Yes, I do. The first thing is as follows: That

3 statement was only obtained last week, so therefore it's not a case of the

4 Defence having a document delayed in any way. The second relates to the

5 fact that this witness should not be cross-examined on the document, and

6 I'm loathe to actually reply in the presence of the doctor. I don't know

7 if it's possible for the reply to be in the absence of the doctor.

8 Although I suspect the name, having been given, clearly indicates what the

9 topic is about.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore, I don't know that Mr. Borovic intended

11 to actually be cross-examining on the document. I would understand him to

12 be indicating that the statement has given rise to issues which he needs

13 now to explore with this witness.

14 MR. MOORE: I would be surprised if that was the case. Because I

15 know the statement, and I know the nature of the statement. That's why I

16 made sure that he got it before this witness gave his evidence. As I say,

17 I --

18 JUDGE PARKER: But he only got it a few days ago.

19 MR. MOORE: He got it yesterday. Because, as I say, we only

20 obtained the statement, we only spoke to the witness, I think it was last

21 week we managed to locate that witness.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore, on the one hand you say you object to

23 him cross-examining arising from the statement.

24 MR. MOORE: Yes.

25 JUDGE PARKER: On the other hand you say you made sure he got the

Page 7226

1 statement before this witness gave his evidence.

2 MR. MOORE: Yes. I made sure that he got the statement because it

3 is relevant to cross-examination that was -- that Mr. Borovic made on the

4 last occasion, and a challenge that he put. Now, the witness did -- had

5 said -- well, if needs be, I will explain it.

6 JUDGE PARKER: We do not know what's in the statement, and we not

7 know the issues.

8 MR. MOORE: Yes.

9 JUDGE PARKER: You and Mr. Borovic do.

10 MR. MOORE: Yes, we do.

11 JUDGE PARKER: But it appears to the Chamber that there is a

12 fundamental inconsistency between you seeing a need to ensure that

13 Mr. Borovic had the statement before this witness continued with his

14 evidence, and you now saying that he shouldn't have an opportunity to

15 cross-examine, because of this new information provided to him.

16 MR. MOORE: No, I understand entirely the Court's logic. But I'm

17 submitting that it does necessarily follow. The statement that was

18 obtained related to an individual that Dr. Njavro had said that Mr. Radic

19 had requested -- Radic had apparently requested to see a doctor at the

20 hospital. And Dr. Njavro gave a name. He was cross-examined on it, and

21 said that Mr. Radic did not know that doctor, and that the educational

22 background was different, that the doctor that Radic himself was educated

23 in Sarajevo, whereas the doctor was not. So the information certainly

24 relates to earlier cross-examination, but in my submission there is

25 nothing in the document that would allow Mr. Borovic to cross-examine this

Page 7227

1 witness. Because the witness has given evidence saying, "I believe he

2 said the following name." And that was all. And the cross-examination

3 was, "Well, that name is unknown to Radic, and the criteria that you apply

4 are different. He was not educated at that place, he was educated

5 elsewhere."

6 He was given this statement, under Rule 68, the correct procedure

7 for this statement and this witness is either for the Prosecution to admit

8 it, which I am willing to do, or for the witness to be called to say, "I

9 do not know Radic and I have never known Radic." This witness, Dr. Njavro,

10 cannot answer any of the material in the statement. There is nothing

11 there for him. He doesn't know the details.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Borovic, you have leave to cross-examine. But

14 the need will be for you to be relevant to this witness. And it may be,

15 if Mr. Moore is correct, that there won't be much that you can put. We

16 leave that to you.

17 Cross-examination by Mr. Borovic:

18 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I'll try

19 to be as brief as possible, needless to say. May I just remind the

20 Chamber that I cross-examined Mr. Njavro on this additional witness, he

21 provided several pages of answers in reference to this name. It wasn't a

22 single reference, there were several. And also there was this KOS captain

23 who was interviewing doctors and then what was said was the KOS captain

24 particularly wanted to know about a rather young colleague, Radomir

25 Dejanovic a physician.

Page 7228

1 Q. Do you remember that -- a general practitioner -- do you remember

2 that, that I showed you that.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. This was on the following page, Your Honours, 1679, and the date

5 is the 15th of November, 2005. This is the intro. I was asking a number

6 of questions, and the witness Njavro said as follows: "As far as I

7 remember, Captain Radic asked me about Radomir Dejanovic, what my opinion

8 of him was." And then: "I know he commented on their relationship

9 because apparently they were fellow students at the military academy and

10 the medical school back then." And now we're getting to the point. Do you

11 know that Radomir Dejanovic was born in 1956?

12 A. No, I don't. Never thought to ask.

13 Q. Very well. Thank you. I then told you what our Defence position

14 was, that he could not have been there, that he was not a JNA

15 counter-intelligence service captain, I also told you that he had studied

16 in Sarajevo, which you can tell if you look at the information contained

17 in the indictment, there was no way they could have studied together in

18 Belgrade. What I am about to tell you now is this: Based on the

19 statement, paragraph 5 of the statement, it says that Radomir Dejanovic

20 started university in 1975. Another thing I wish to tell you is that

21 Captain Radic was born in 1962. Therefore, he was but a young boy at the

22 time.

23 MR. MOORE: I object to the way the question is being put. It's

24 not a question, it's giving evidence. And that's exactly what I have been

25 trying to indicate. All this doctor has said is, I thought it was, and my

Page 7229

1 learned friend is only now giving evidence in relation to the topic. And

2 that's wholly inappropriate.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Borovic --

4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the president, please.

5 JUDGE PARKER: At the moment, I don't see a way that you can

6 usefully put this sort of question to the witness. It would seem to me

7 that your position, as advanced, most by taking advantage of what has been

8 indicated by Mr. Moore, that he would agree to this statement being

9 tendered as an exhibit so that it then becomes evidence that that is the

10 position. I'm not sure how the witness can help you when he has told you

11 what he recalls of the person. It may be the right person or a wrong

12 person. He can't help you with that.

13 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will do my best

14 after all, this is very important for me. This is evidence for me about

15 what the counter-intelligence captain talked to that doctor about, but

16 this could not have about Captain Radic, this is a case of mistaken

17 identity. Now, how can I prove is this? I will rephrase the question If

18 I tell the witness that Radic was still a child.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Doesn't that statement help you to establish that

20 they're two different people?

21 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Fine, Your Honours. Can I just ask

22 one more question?

23 JUDGE PARKER: You can ask any relevant question arising from the

24 statement. Yes.

25 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] It's a highly relevant question.

Page 7230

1 Thank you.

2 Q. Did you watch a movie called, "100 days of Vukovar" on Croatian TV

3 several times?

4 A. I'm not sure about several times, but I did see that movie, yes.

5 Q. Did you see a particular piece of footage showing Captain Radic

6 allegedly saying this: "Vukovar must fall tonight."

7 A. I don't remember that either.

8 Q. Thank you very much.

9 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] I don't have any further questions,

10 Your Honours.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Borovic.

12 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Finally, Your Honours, you have been

13 very kind and I thank you for that. I seek that Dejanovic's statement be

14 admitted into evidence based on the confirmation that I received from my

15 learned friends from the OTP today.

16 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number 350.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Now, Mr. Moore, looking at the time, our tape is

19 just on the verge of running out. I think a break will be necessary,

20 unless you are going to be very, very confined.

21 MR. MOORE: I would have thought I would be no more than 10

22 minutes.

23 JUDGE PARKER: I don't think we've got 10 minutes on the tape.

24 And you need a longer period now to see the witness?

25 MR. MOORE: Could Your Honour say a quarter past 1.00?

Page 7231

1 JUDGE PARKER: Could you live with 10 minutes past 1.00,

2 Mr. Moore?

3 MR. MOORE: Yes, of course.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Time is becoming of the essence. 10 minutes past

5 1.00 we will resume.

6 --- Recess taken at 12.31 p.m.

7 --- On resuming at 1.15 p.m.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore.

9 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

10 Re-examination by Mr. Moore:

11 Q. Doctor, you've told us about seeing an argument between

12 Sljivancanin, as you believed him to be, and Borsinger, the

13 international -- the Red Cross representative. Do you remember giving

14 evidence about that?

15 A. The interpretation.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Were you able to hear Mr. Moore's last question?


18 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.


20 Q. I'll ask the question again, if I may. You have told us about an

21 argument between Sljivancanin and Borsinger that you saw at the hospital.

22 A. That's right.

23 Q. How many times did you see them together when one considers that

24 period?

25 A. On the 18th, as I said, outside the hospital it was in the early

Page 7232

1 afternoon. I did not see Mr. Borsinger and Mr. Sljivancanin meeting at

2 any time after that.

3 Q. So the answer is, you saw them together once; is that correct?

4 A. That's right.

5 Q. And you described it as an argument. Now, you have told us that

6 it is possible that you may be wrong in dates on occasion. That's right,

7 I think, isn't it?

8 A. Yes. If you look at the sequence of events, the succession of

9 events, if the JNA and the paramilitaries entered Vukovar on the 18th, and

10 laid siege to the hospital, and everything I told you about what was going

11 on inside the hospital, that could have been on the 18th, the afternoon

12 and the evening of the 18th, the 19th, or the 20th. If you --

13 Q. All right. Thank you very much. Now, can I deal with the

14 argument that you say was between Borsinger and Sljivancanin, you have

15 heard, because it was put to you by Mr. Bulatovic, that we have had

16 evidence from Dr. Bosanac that the meeting actually was not the 18th, but

17 the 19th. Now, is it possible that it might have been the 19th?

18 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Bulatovic.

20 Just pause a moment, please, Doctor.

21 Yes, Mr. Bulatovic.

22 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, at no time during my

23 cross-examination did I suggest to Mr. Njavro that the meeting took place

24 on the 18th. I'm not sure where Mr. Moore got this information.

25 MR. MOORE: I never said the 18th. I thought I said the 19th.

Page 7233

1 JUDGE PARKER: The transcript holds you to the 18th on three

2 occasions. Maybe it was a misspeaking on your part, Mr. Moore.

3 MR. MOORE: Well, I will repeat it.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Line 17 --

5 MR. MOORE: Yes, I see that.

6 JUDGE PARKER: -- 18 and 19, I think.

7 MR. MOORE: Yes.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Or not 19. Sorry, line 15 is the first one.

9 MR. MOORE: Well, actually, if you look at line 24, now is it

10 possible the meeting might have been on the 19th. What Dr. Njavro has

11 said, it was the 18th. Mr. Bulatovic reminded the witness about a meeting

12 on the 19th.

13 JUDGE PARKER: If you are content with your question as it is

14 there, there will be no ruling against its propriety by the Chamber,

15 Mr. Moore, despite the objection.

16 No, Mr. Lukic, you've had the objection.

17 MR. LUKIC: No, not objection, Your Honour. Not objection.


19 MR. LUKIC: I think that problem is with the transcript because

20 Mr. Moore asked a meeting, and translation, what we received and witness

21 received is "sastanak."

22 MR. MOORE: Well, thank you very much. And what does that mean.

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] My understanding was that Mr. Moore

24 was referring to the encounter between Borsinger and Mr. Sljivancanin

25 outside the hospital. That was my understanding, so is that perhaps a

Page 7234

1 possibility? I think there is some confusion involving the

2 words "encounter," and "meeting." I think it's a matter of interpretation,

3 and I think that is what is causing the confusion.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.


6 Q. You told us that the meeting with Borsinger and Sljivancanin was

7 on the 18th. And you've told us there was only one that you remember.

8 And Mr. Bulatovic reminded you that Dr. Bosanac said that meeting was not

9 the 18th, but the 19th. And I'm asking you, bearing in mind the rely you

10 gave, is it possible the meeting was on the 19th and not the 18th, as you

11 said?

12 A. The encounter between Mr. Nicholas Borsinger and Mr. Veselin

13 Sljivancanin occurred on the 18th, the first one. The 18th of November,

14 1991, outside the hospital in the afternoon. On the 19th Dr. Bosanac told

15 me, and this was a well-known fact, that the men, the staff who were

16 inside the hospital who had come up from the cellar to seek salvation

17 inside the hospital, that they, that is what Dr. Bosanac told me, that

18 doctor -- that Mr. Sljivancanin, and that he was taking such people away.

19 On the 19th I personally did not encounter Mr. Sljivancanin.

20 Q. I think you may have misunderstood what was said to you. I'll

21 repeat it again.

22 You have told us there was one meeting by -- or between Borsinger

23 and Sljivancanin. You believe that to be the 18th of November. But you

24 have heard from Mr. Bulatovic that Dr. Bosanac took the view that the

25 meeting was not the 18th, it was the 19th. And when you were asked about

Page 7235

1 that you said, "Why should I dispute what Dr. Bosanac said?"

2 So what I'm trying to do is to clarify, please, whether it is

3 possible that she is right and you may be wrong about the date. That's

4 all I'm asking.

5 A. I categorically claim that I heard what I said on the 18th outside

6 the hospital entrance. And I told you about the way they spoke to each

7 other, Borsinger and Sljivancanin. It was on the early afternoon of the

8 18th.

9 Q. Thank you very much. I'll move on to another topic, if I may?

10 JUDGE PARKER: Just before you do, is there something further,

11 Mr. Bulatovic?

12 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] No, thank you, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE PARKER: I felt it best to try and get that resolved by I

14 heard your objection.

15 Very well, carry on, Mr. Moore.

16 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

17 Q. Can we deal, then, please, with Marko Mandic? Now, you know that

18 name because you've already given evidence about it; isn't that right?

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. Now, a question was asked by Mr. Bulatovic, and it was as

21 follows, "Dr. Njavro, did you hear that on the 18th of Nova large group of

22 civilians were put up in Velepromet?" Answer by yourself: "On the 18th?"

23 Question: "Yes." Answer, and this is what you said: "As far as I know,

24 and I do know about these things on the 18th" -- and then you were

25 stopped. Now, what were you going to say about the things you knew about

Page 7236

1 in relation to Velepromet on the 19th? Do you understand the question?

2 A. Yes. On the 18th -- what I said occurred on the 19th and not on

3 the 18th most of the men from the hospital who had arrived from cellars

4 were taken away among other people, one of the persons we talked about,

5 Marko Mandic. There were a number of ambulance drivers, too; certain

6 security officers from the hospital. I think there were two or three

7 police officers, I can give you their names, if you like. One of them was

8 Tomislav Hegedus, and the other was Branimir Lukenda and, as I said, some

9 of the ambulance drivers too, and we don't know what became of them, what

10 fate they ultimately met. What we do know is that they were taken to

11 Velepromet, I'm talking about the 19th of November, about the 19th of

12 November, 1991.

13 Q. Thank you very much. And Marko Mandic, was he at the hospital

14 around the time of the fall of Vukovar?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And can you tell us what happened to Marko Mandic?

17 A. Marko Mandic was a paramedic. He was a plaster technician for

18 limb injuries. He was very, very good at his job. He was in the hospital

19 on the 19th with this group that I've mentioned, including those others

20 who had arrived from across the town to seek safety inside the hospital,

21 so he was taken away, together with that group.

22 Q. If we are talking about this group of men that you say were taken

23 to Velepromet, are you able to estimate how many men were taken to

24 Velepromet on the 19th from the hospital?

25 A. I think it's difficult for me to give you a figure, but it was a

Page 7237

1 substantial amount. As I said, those from the cellars, though, somehow

2 had managed to survive all the shelling, all the destruction and all the

3 horror. Everything about that. So, those who arrived at the hospital at

4 one point in time, between the evening of the 17th and the 18th, there

5 must have been nearly 2.000 people, if my assessment is correct. How many

6 of them were taken away, I only know about the hospital staff and the

7 health workers. How many others who were in the -- on the ground floor of

8 the hospital, how many of those were taken away, I can't even give you a

9 ballpark figure, except for those I have already mentioned.

10 Q. But that is not what I am asking. I'm asking specifically about

11 the group of men, and you described people like Tomislav Hegedus. I'm

12 asking about that group being taken away on the 19th, and I want you to

13 concentrate on the 19th. Now, are you able to give an estimate of the

14 number of men taken away on the 19th to Velepromet? Do you understand?

15 A. Sir, Mr. Prosecutor, I can only tell you what I know. What I know

16 about the hospital, and the people who were taken away. A large group of

17 men were taken away, that much is certain. I don't know the exact figure,

18 but I know about the hospital employees. However, there were many other

19 men there. And they, too, were taken to Velepromet. This is at Sajmiste,

20 the warehouses belonging to that company. A large number.

21 Q. When you refer to police officers, how many police officers were

22 taken on the 19th, approximately?

23 A. As for police officers, I think a man named Baketa was taken away,

24 Tomislav Hegedus was also taken away, Branko Lukenda was taken away. I'm

25 not sure about anyone else. I can't remember, but those were the people

Page 7238

1 in charge of the hospital security. They made sure that there were no

2 incidents inside or outside the hospital.

3 Q. I want to deal with male hospital staff that you believe were

4 taken away on the 19th, and please focus on the day. On the 19th, to

5 Velepromet, can you tell us the names of the hospital staff taken away on

6 that day, please? If you don't know, do say.

7 A. Some of the drivers, Marko, Vlaho, another man named Vlaho,

8 another man, Miroslav, not Marko, Azasanin, Mihajlo Zera. The drivers.

9 The ambulance drivers. Hospital employees, Dragan Gavric. These are some

10 of those that -- that I can now remember.

11 Q. And of the names that you have given, do you know what happened to

12 those individuals? Have you ever seen them again?

13 A. Never again. None of the ambulance drivers I've just mentioned or

14 the police officers for that matter, or the hospital staff. I've never

15 seen anyone again.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 MR. MOORE: I have no further re-examination. Thank you very

18 much.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Doctor, I once again thank you for coming to The

20 Hague and for the assistance that you have given. You will be pleased to

21 know that should be the end of your evidence, and you are now free to

22 return to your other interests. Thank you very much. The court officer

23 will assist you outside.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you.

25 [The witness withdrew]

Page 7239

1 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic.

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I wanted to be efficient, and ask for

3 some guidance while we're waiting for the next witness. It has to do with

4 the following: Yesterday we received a written request from the

5 Prosecution pertaining to two witnesses that Mr. Moore said several days

6 ago he was planning to call. If you will remember, upon hearing that from

7 Mr. Moore, I said that we would like to submit a written filing,

8 pertaining to that. What is important for us is that we be able to do

9 this within eight days. Mr. Moore's submission is three pages long. We

10 have a problem that you are not aware of, and I will let you know about it

11 now.

12 The statement of the proposed witness, Florence Hartman was

13 disclosed to us in English. And it has three pages of text. It is not

14 too long. We did not receive it in B/C/S, even though the Prosecution

15 ought to have disclosed to us in B/C/S, but they did not and we will read

16 it to our clients ourselves. What I need to make you aware of are the

17 attachments that came with the statement. In order for us to be able to

18 state our position concerning this, we received 10 pages in French,

19 handwritten pages, this was one of the attachments. Then we received an

20 article in French, then we received another article in French that she

21 mentions in her statement, I think it's an article from Le Monde. Then we

22 received 30 pages of other notes she made, handwritten in French, a total

23 of about 30 pages. Mr. Moore can confirm this. Then another article in

24 French from another newspaper.

25 Also, a portion of a book, I can't read it out in French, it has

Page 7240

1 to do with Milosevic, and then parts of the book entitled: "Milosevic:

2 Diagonal of a Madman and Diagonal of a Laufer." Both 10 pages long. Now

3 we are faced with a task that should have been made easier for us by the

4 Prosecution. We have to acquaint ourselves with the documents in order to

5 make our submission. We received this in one of the official languages of

6 the Tribunal, and I don't know whether Mr. Moore speaks French or not, but

7 he had to familiarise himself with these documents as well, especially the

8 notes made by the witness. So I am now asking that we be allowed to make

9 a written submission, and I don't know what are the intentions of Mr.

10 Moore, whether he wants to tender these documents into evidence pursuant

11 to Rule 66(A)(ii), if he intends to tender them in at all. We received

12 this just two days ago, only in English, not in the language of the

13 accused, and this was disclosed to us on the 30th of March. I wanted to

14 make you aware of that so that you understand why we're asking for eight

15 days to write our written submission. So this pertains to Witness Hartman

16 and Witness Aric.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore.

18 MR. MOORE: With regard to Florence Hartman, the statement says

19 here is in three pages, it's a straightforward statement, and it's being

20 translated in B/C/S to assist my learned friends. I can't imagine that

21 there's any difficult in reading the statement, and I see Mr. Lukic saying

22 no.

23 With regard to the attachments or appendixes, Hartman's statement

24 really breaks into two parts. One is a discussion with

25 Major Sljivancanin, and the second relates to the discovery of the grave

Page 7241

1 at Ovcara where we submit that she will be able to say that the grave was

2 located on or about the 18th or 19th of October, 1992. And as a

3 consequence of that, she, being a journalist, that article was

4 subsequently published in Le Monde and associated newspapers. So the

5 newspapers themselves are being translated also. The trouble of course

6 that arises is it takes time. But the actual nub of the statement is that

7 she discovers the grave on the 18th and 19th of October. We have asked

8 for the translation and it is being done as quickly as possible. I'm a

9 little -- well, it's not my business to say that I'm surprised but the

10 fact of the matter is the statement goes to those two issues, one is

11 notice and one is a discussion, and the material will come through when

12 the translation department manage to conclude their work.

13 JUDGE PARKER: When it is anticipated that the witness will be

14 called?

15 MR. MOORE: Well.

16 JUDGE PARKER: If leave is granted.

17 MR. MOORE: If leave is granted we were hoping because there is a

18 problem actually next week and I will explain it now that it has arisen.

19 We have a witness who was to give evidence from a foreign jurisdiction.

20 Because of the nature of the terrain, there have been difficulties setting

21 up a satellite link, and the government and the police force of that

22 country are trying to change the location to a major city. I think, as

23 matters stand, we need of course the registry to be there, and we had

24 intended it to occur before Easter. I think that that will not be able to

25 be done until after Easter. We were hoping that we could have dealt with

Page 7242

1 the matter of Hartman perhaps sometime next week if there had been a

2 decision. I don't mean that in any discourteous way. But it was one of

3 the reserve witnesses that we had because she's here in the building and

4 can be brought in at short notice.

5 We have another witness where we made application for protective

6 measures, which was granted yesterday. We have attempted to locate that

7 witness, I'm not going to go into the details of it, and that is proving

8 to be difficult. We are still hoping that the witness will be available

9 on Monday, in substitute for the grave digger. But as it stands at this

10 time, we are trying to locate that person. What I had anticipated was that

11 next week, the new witness with protective measures for Monday and

12 Tuesday, and then the 92 bis material to be on Wednesday because I felt it

13 was inappropriate to start a new witness on the Wednesday, bearing in mind

14 there was a public holiday coming up on the Friday with a long break. So

15 the 92 bis material is going to be dealt with by Ms. Tuma. So with regard

16 to Hartman, the situation is, it just depends when the translation

17 department concludes.

18 The one good thing is that she's in the building and could always

19 be re-called if there is any untoward that appears.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Anything in reply, Mr. Lukic?

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The current position of Mr. Moore is

22 shocking. I find it shocking. And I will tell you why. If the

23 Prosecutor intends to call the witness next week, the witness about whom

24 we were informed just a few days ago, or rather we received the material

25 just a few days ago, I don't know how the Defence is supposed to make

Page 7243

1 investigations. The investigations needed for cross-examination. We need

2 to contact our investigators. Your Honours, the Prosecution intends to

3 call another 30 or 40 witnesses. And because the Prosecution does not

4 have ready witnesses for next week that's not reason enough to call

5 somebody for whom we are not prepared.

6 In general we oppose the calling of new witnesses. We need at

7 least one month to conduct our investigations for these two witnesses,

8 about whom we were informed just recently. Let me tell you something

9 else. In a meeting in January Mr. Moore did tell us indeed that he

10 intended to call Mr. Aric. We were disclosed the statement of Mr. Aric

11 from the year of 2000. At the meeting Mr. Moore also told us that he was

12 going to take a new statement from Mr. Aric when he is called here. So

13 far we have received only the 2000 statement. We expect to receive new

14 material that we will then investigate through our investigators. I said

15 that this involved the notes of Mrs. Hartman, which are completely

16 illegible for us. If you will remember just how difficult was to read

17 Mr. Kypr's notes and how important they were for the trial. The

18 submission that the Prosecution gave us about the proposed testimony of

19 Mr. [As interpreted] Hartman will indicate that our fears are quite

20 legitimate. We have to conduct our own investigation. I don't see how we

21 are supposed to cross-examine the witness, if she is to come, if we

22 receive these documents so late. We need to translate them and then

23 conduct our investigations.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Any response, briefly, Mr. Moore.

25 MR. MOORE: Yes, there is. We had two witnesses, one a grave

Page 7244

1 digger and one that we have asked for special measures which we hoped to

2 call in time, which would conclude next week. It was not our intention to

3 call Aric or Hartman next week. As I have said, that they are almost

4 substitute witnesses, because of the difficulties that we have had with

5 regard to the electronic contact, which has been going since, I believe,

6 January, we've had I think, three dates so far. And with regard to Aric,

7 we can call Aric at any time. The difficulty we have is, one witness we

8 are having difficulty to locate, and the second relates to electronic

9 problems. I understand my learned friend's concern about cross-examining

10 Hartman, but I am trying to fill the court diary as best I can. And there

11 is nothing approaching 30 to 40 witnesses to be called by the Prosecution.

12 I would estimate probably between 12 and 14. I would anticipate.

13 JUDGE PARKER: I think the Defence observation is well placed upon

14 the lists we presently have, though.

15 MR. MOORE: Well, my learned friend also knows that we have said

16 that we are cutting down the military witnesses significantly. The

17 problem is perfectly straightforward, we are not sure, given the nature

18 and conduct of the Defence, exactly the form of the cross-examination.

19 And I am very loathe to say I am not going to call a witness, a military

20 witness, if -- without knowing exactly what the nature of the

21 cross-examination is. I'm trying to be as careful as I can in an

22 important case, and I do not wish to say that I'm not going call someone,

23 and then find the nature of the cross-examination is going to be dealt

24 with by that witness. I gave an estimate that I thought that mid-May, and

25 I don't think I'll be far away with regard to that date.

Page 7245

1 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE PARKER: In the view of the Chamber it would be

4 inappropriate in the circumstances if either of the two contemplated

5 witnesses were called next week unless it is the case, in respect of Aric,

6 that the evidence to be given is that which was in the statement provided

7 some months ago. If there is to be a new statement and different

8 evidence, it would not be appropriate to call the witness next week.

9 Just to keep the scales even, let it be clear the Defence cannot

10 expect a month to investigate any additional witness.

11 We must now adjourn and resume tomorrow at 2.15 [sic]. Could I

12 indicate -- sorry it's 9.00 tomorrow. Can I indicate that on Friday

13 morning two new judges are being sworn in at 9.00, so that we must be

14 delayed until 9.45, I expect, before we can start. That's on Friday.

15 Tomorrow morning at 9.00 we resume.

16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.52 p.m.,

17 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 6th day of April,

18 2006, at 9.00 a.m.