1 Wednesday, 17 May 2006
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.31 a.m.
6 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Good morning. I'm afraid Judge Parker is
7 unable to sit today as well, but we are certain that he will be able to
8 join us tomorrow. So for today it will still be Judge Thelin and myself
9 conducting the hearing.
10 Good morning, Mr. Vojnovic. May I remind you of the affirmation
11 you took yesterday which is still applicable. Now we are going to
12 continue with the cross-examination.
13 Mr. Borovic.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
15 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
16 WITNESS: MILORAD VOJNOVIC [Resumed]
17 [Witness answered through interpreter]
18 Cross-examination by Mr. Borovic: [Continued]
19 Q. Just to finish what we began yesterday. If I were to tell you
20 that Captain Radic had to go into coordinated action with his unit with
21 two detachments of the Territorial Defence and with your 3rd Battalion,
22 would he be able to do something like that of his own accord or would
23 there have to be a decision on something like that?
24 A. He couldn't do it of his own accord. He couldn't choose who to go
25 into coordinated action with.
1 Q. But based on what could he do something like that?
2 A. On the basis of an order by the superior command.
3 Q. Thank you. You've already stated that you attended the daily
4 briefings at the command post of OG South in Negoslavci. Is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You said that at those meetings Mrksic was also present with his
7 staff. That's what you told the Tribunal investigators.
8 A. Yes, that is correct.
9 Q. Do you know who comprised this staff?
10 A. I think the staff comprised the Chief of Staff, some of the
11 operations organ, people in the staff, the security chief, the assistant,
12 and the most serious senior officers from the OG South command.
13 Q. Thank you. And is that the main place where the command of the
14 Vukovar operation was conducted from?
15 A. Yes, that is correct.
16 Q. On the critical day when you went for the regular briefing on the
17 20th of November, 1991, could you please list all the officers of yours
18 who remained at Ovcara at that time.
19 A. I think that those who were at Ovcara on that day, on the 20th,
20 other than me, were the following people: Vezmarovic -- I'm not
21 mentioning the name of the person who was in the Ovcara sector.
22 Q. You mean the local commander of Ovcara?
23 A. Yes, yes. Him. Then, later, Captain Vukic and Captain Dacic also
24 came. I don't know of any others.
25 Q. Thank you. Was Dragi Vukosavljevic there with some officers?
1 A. I think that he was there with Dacic and Vukic.
2 Q. Thank you. The military police company under the command of
3 Vezmarovic numbered about 30 soldiers. You said that to the Prosecution.
4 A. Yes, that was a platoon.
5 Q. Then on transcript page 8807, line 25, you said that a military
6 police company is comprised of a military police platoon and a traffic
7 police platoon.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. For the Prosecution, this is page 8827, line 25.
10 You said that the military police platoon numbered between 25 and
11 30 and the traffic police had two detachments, numbering from 15 to 16
12 soldiers. Is that correct? If we add that up, doesn't that come to about
13 40 soldiers?
14 A. Yes, that's about it.
15 Q. If we added the 16 soldiers who came with Vukic, does that mean
16 that then there were about 50 soldiers at a certain point together with
17 Vezmarovic's company?
18 A. No, the traffic platoon was not at Ovcara.
19 Q. How do you know that?
20 A. I know that the traffic police was not at Ovcara, the traffic
21 police detachment.
22 Q. How do you know that?
23 A. I never heard such information other than now from you that the
24 traffic platoon was at Ovcara.
25 Q. If I were to tell you that Vezmarovic said that when he came to
1 the command post he heard that his company of the military police was
2 engaged at Ovcara, that means that if the military police company was
3 engaged there, the traffic -- a platoon was engaged there as well.
4 A. No, he probably made a mistake. The traffic platoon was not
5 engaged there.
6 Q. How would you recognise members of the traffic platoon?
7 A. They had slightly different equipment. They had white sleeves and
8 they had the traffic bats, and they also had batons and handcuffs and so
10 Q. The location of the Ovcara hangar as a location where the
11 prisoners would be detained, is that something that was chosen by
12 Vezmarovic together with you? I think we talked about that a little bit.
13 A. I was at that facility at Ovcara. I don't remember specifically,
14 but I know that this building was meant to be used in the event that there
15 were any prisoners of war, and it was supposed to be used for other
16 purposes, too.
17 Q. You said that as the commander of the 80th Motorised Brigade.
18 A. I don't know if I planned that or someone else allocated that
19 facility for that. But the facility was there, it was the only one, there
20 were no other buildings available.
21 Q. So you felt it was the most suitable building?
22 A. Yes, that is correct.
23 Q. That means that you allocated that as the future prison.
24 A. No, I can't really say that.
25 Q. Very well. Based on your statement, we see that when you came to
1 Ovcara you found Vezmarovic already there - is that correct? - with the
2 members of the military police company?
3 A. No, I think that Vezmarovic came later.
4 Q. We are going to establish that now slowly. You said there were a
5 lot of people there wearing white cross belts. Does that mean that these
6 were members of the military police company?
7 A. No, it doesn't mean that. Somebody could have gotten white cross
8 belts in some other way and could have worn it without being a member of
9 the military police. In any case, white belts are an indication of
10 membership of the military police. I don't know if any of the Territorial
11 Defence members had white belts.
12 Q. Your military police company commander said that when he came to
13 Ovcara, he, threw out all the military members and only his military
14 police company remained behind and they were wearing white cross belts.
15 So if you saw people with white cross belts in the hangar it is logical
16 that these would be members of the military police company who belonged to
17 your 80th Battalion.
18 A. I know that it was there.
19 Q. All right, very well. Thank you. Now, let's go back now to the
20 time when you were there, because several times you said you spent from 20
21 to 30 minutes there.
22 A. Yes, that is correct.
23 Q. You said that you stopped by at the hangar on your way from Sotin,
24 in your statement, and I think my colleague Vasic gave you that statement
25 and I can give it to you to look over.
1 A. No, that is correct; I stopped off at the hangar on my way from
3 Q. You said there in a statement you gave to the security organs of
4 the 12th of November --
5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the date and the
7 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. You said that there were from 20 to 30 members of paramilitary
9 groups and Territorial Defence members at about 1200 hours you stopped off
10 at the hangar in Sotin.
11 A. Yes, probably that is what I stated, but I think that later I
12 confirmed that. I think there were more than the number quoted there.
13 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please provide the
14 Trial Chamber as well as the Prosecution with -- I thought that Mr. Vasic
15 left everything to the witness yesterday.
16 Q. You gave a statement to the military court on the 28th of
17 December, 1998. This is page 3, paragraph 2. The English version is page
18 3, paragraph 1. And there you also said that you arrived at 1700 hours
19 and that you saw a person there making lists. You also said that you
20 stayed there for about 20 minutes. There is another thing: You said that
21 you didn't notice members of any regular units there.
22 A. I'm sorry. I'm missing one of the lenses from my glasses, but
23 very well. I don't believe that Vezmarovic --
24 Q. No, you said that.
25 A. No, no, I want to go back to the first part of what you said, that
1 Vezmarovic threw out all the military personnel from the hangar, because
2 he could not have thrown out all the TO members from the hangar, that's
3 for sure. Maybe some of us or maybe he chased out some other people, but
4 these people he could not have chased out of the hangar. I'm thinking of
5 the TO members.
6 Q. Well, then, let's finish up what you are commenting on yourself.
7 So Vezmarovic said not only that he threw out members of the units
8 belonging to the local commander of Ovcara, but he also threw out all the
9 members of the Territorial Defence, and he also stated that at the time
10 there were no officers or soldiers from the Guards Motorised Brigade at
11 that location. What would your comment be now, because that was his
13 A. All I can say is that Major Vukasinovic was at the hangar --
14 Q. We have already heard that.
15 A. -- and around him were a group of persons wearing regular military
16 uniforms. I don't know if these were senior officers or soldiers. I
17 don't know. In any case, they were not our soldiers, and they were around
18 him all the time.
19 Q. Very well. What do you say about your statement that you provided
20 to the security organs - that I read for you earlier - from the 12th of
21 November, 1998, page 1, where you say: "I did not notice members of any
22 regular units." You do not mention Vukasinovic there or those other
23 soldiers. Vezmarovic doesn't mention them either.
24 A. Well, Vukasinovic does not constitute a unit.
25 Q. Very well. Thank you. My colleagues asked you a little bit more
1 about that so I'm not going to go into that so much. Were you at Ovcara
2 that day at 1400 hours in passing and then after that at 1700 hours. Is
3 that correct?
4 A. Yes, that's correct.
5 Q. Thank you. You said that you wanted to visit your units in Sotin
6 and then after that you wanted to visit your unit in Ovcara. Is that
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you. If you said that you wanted to see your commander and
10 see your unit -- so isn't then your unit part of the 80th Motorised
11 Brigade? You were saying something else yesterday.
12 A. No, it's not part of the 80th Brigade, but he is my officer who is
13 temporarily out of that brigade. But I knew that in a few days he would
14 come back to the brigade, so I couldn't just ignore him and pass by
15 without checking to see what he was doing.
16 Q. You said that you passed by at 1400 hours on your way to Sotin.
17 Is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. How long did you stay in Sotin, approximately?
20 A. I think that I stayed there -- I can't say exactly. I had lunch
21 with them. Then I did some personal hygiene things for myself.
22 Q. Very well. How long did you stay there?
23 A. About two to two and a half hours.
24 Q. When you arrived at Ovcara, how long did you make efforts on
25 behalf of the prisoners there?
1 A. It's not very easy to be talking constantly about the time-line.
2 I know the events, I know some details. I can say some things about
3 Ovcara as a facility, about the Mitnica group, about the prisoners. So I
4 cannot really say I was there for 20 minutes and then later you will say:
5 Well, you said you were there for 30 minutes. So I'm not sure how many
6 minutes I was there. I was there for as long as it took me to make sure
7 that all the prisoners entered Ovcara.
8 Q. So let us go on. How much time did you need as long as the
9 gauntlet was active and until all the prisoners entered?
10 A. Well, I can't say how much --
11 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers please not overlap.
12 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. How much time did you need for that operation?
14 A. No, I really cannot tell how much time it took.
15 Q. How much time did you spend in the hangar?
16 A. I said that I spent about 30, up to 40, minutes in the hangar. I
17 don't know myself, I'm not sure how long it was. Mostly it was, I think,
18 about 30 minutes. I already said that.
19 Q. How much time did Vukic need after you called him to come to
20 Ovcara? You can assess that.
21 A. You can estimate that.
22 Q. To organise the troops and all of that.
23 A. Perhaps it was 30 to 40 minutes, an hour at the most.
24 Q. Is that in contradiction with your statement, something that you
25 repeated several times, that you spent a total of between 20 and 30
1 minutes inside the hangar at Ovcara? Would that not mean that you could
2 not possibly have seen Vukic if 20 or 30 minutes later you left for
4 A. I waited for Vukic, that's why I'm saying this. Don't hold me to
5 a precise time-line. I'm telling you about what happened and how it
7 Q. Sir, our task is to check if you're telling the truth. If there
8 is a 20-minute discrepancy regarding your time in the hangar, then I have
9 to check several things with other witnesses, because for all I know, you
10 may have arrived at Ovcara at 1400 hours and that would seem to tie in
12 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] I have to ask this one directly, I
13 apologise, Your Honours.
14 Q. Were you at Ovcara from 1400 hours until your departure for the
15 Negoslavci command?
16 A. I cannot really say that I was or that I wasn't.
17 Q. Thank you very much.
18 In the transcript of the trial, the Special Court for war crimes
19 in Belgrade, dated the 24th of November, page 70 - the English reference
20 is page 101 - you were asked the following question by the President of
21 the Trial Chamber: "Were there any other units?"
22 And you said: "No, no one."
23 And after that, on page 70, you said: "No one. All I can say is
24 I think there was a patrol of the traffic police in that task that was
25 sent there to help with the traffic flow when those people were coming out
1 of the hospital. Traffic patrol was requested to provide security."
2 My question is: Your traffic patrol from the 80th Motorised
3 Brigade, was it involved in any way with the captured persons coming out
4 of the hospital?
5 A. No, it wasn't.
6 Q. And yet I have just read out to you your own testimony from the
7 Special Court in Belgrade. Is that true what you stated there?
8 A. Yes, that was indeed what I said, and yesterday I said I thought
9 there was but there wasn't.
10 Q. Who was it that persuaded you that there wasn't?
11 A. I just talked to people and it donned on me at some point that
12 there wasn't.
13 Q. I suppose that one of those people you talked to must have been
14 Vezmarovic, too, that you colluded with him to decide what your testimony
15 would be, right?
16 A. No, I never met Vezmarovic before any of the trials nor did I
17 actually see him at any of the trials.
18 Q. What about the meeting in Kragujevac; did you see him there?
19 A. I saw Vezmarovic in Kragujevac, when my daughter --
20 MR. MOORE: I'm sorry. My learned friend is posing a question to
21 the witness. He is not giving him a chance to refer specifically to the
22 issue. I have managed to locate the evidence that my learned friend is
23 referring to. Initially I thought he had been submitting to the witness
24 or asking the witness about what he saw at 2.00 when he was there. My
25 understanding in relation to this section of the transcript relates to
1 later -- later that day, in relation to the -- what I would call the
2 gauntlet issue. I don't know if that is right or wrong. My learned
3 friend moves so quickly, it's difficult to catch the documents, but it
4 seems to be in relation to a different part of the day and a different
5 issue, but perhaps I'm wrong.
6 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Can you clarify that, Mr. Borovic?
7 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it's all crystal clear.
8 There is a method that I'm using in my cross-examination by which I
9 managed to obtain an answer from the witness. It may have been the case
10 that he was at Ovcara that day from 1400 hours onwards. He said: Yes.
11 The Prosecutor wishes to reprocess my question in order to obtain a
12 different answer, but that is a very different kettle of fish, Your
13 Honours. By now the witness understands that he's expected to change that
14 answer, so ...
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I never told you that I was at
16 Ovcara throughout. You are trying to convince me that I was.
17 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, should I do that
19 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: I'm sorry, I'm reading from the
20 transcript on page 10, line 14, on my transcript and the witness answers:
21 "I cannot say that I was or wasn't," so he hasn't answered yes to your
22 question, according to what I see on the transcript. So maybe you can
23 clarify this, please, Mr. Borovic.
24 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Q. When I say that you were there throughout from 1400 hours onwards,
1 that is until your departure for the command post in Negoslavci, inside
2 the hangar, is there any possibility that you were there throughout?
3 A. My answer was -- I am not saying that I was there throughout and I
4 wasn't there inside the hangar, if you mean.
5 Q. Would you allow for the possibility, if I may just jog your memory
6 a little, that you were, after all, there throughout this whole time until
7 you left for the command post in Negoslavci, from 1400 hours onwards. Do
8 you allow for that possibility? Do you leave that possibility open that
9 you were perhaps wrong on that?
10 A. Negoslavci. I left for Negoslavci at about 1700 hours.
11 Q. Before you left for Negoslavci. I am being crystal clear here.
12 Please don't twist my question around.
13 A. I am not trying to do that at all.
14 Q. What would you say if I told you that you were at Ovcara from 1400
15 hours until you left for the command post in Negoslavci for your regular
16 briefing, as you suggest, at about 1700 hours. You have just said that,
17 haven't you? 1700 hours was the time of your departure for the command
18 post in Negoslavci; right?
19 A. Yes, that's right.
20 Q. Isn't it obvious, then, that what you've been talking about for
21 two days, that you had reached Ovcara a lot earlier than you originally
23 A. When I finally came, I don't know if I was there all the time, but
24 I know that I left at about 1700 hours for the command post.
25 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Vojnovic, I think we've managed, finally,
1 to shed some light on this particular issue.
2 If I told you that Dragi Vukosavljevic stated that he had been to
3 Ovcara on your orders twice, would that be correct?
4 A. Well, that's what Dragi sent. I know that I sent him once and
5 maybe he went yet another time.
6 Q. Thank you very much. The second time around that you sent him to
7 Ovcara, was that in order to convey your express orders to the military
8 police to withdraw, to pull out?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. I don't know if anyone asked you: Do you know who Novica
11 Trifunovic from Kragujevac is?
12 A. No. I heard that he was a soldier, but -- actually, excuse me,
13 you probably mean an officer who was here recently. A man named
14 Trifunovic testified here recently. I read about that in the newspapers.
15 I'm not sure if that's the same person. Is he an officer or whatever?
16 Q. No, Novica Trifunovic from Kragujevac. That is the person I'm
17 asking you about. Your commander of your military police company claims
18 that he found Novica Trifunovic at Ovcara with soldiers and that he
19 chucked them out of the hangar.
20 A. Yes, but I still don't know who Novica Trifunovic is, do I?
21 Q. I'm talking about Jovan Novkovic, my apologies.
22 A. Jovan Novkovic, yes, yes, I know that person.
23 Q. And do you know that he was chucked out of the hangar by
24 Vezmarovic on that day?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Very well. You got pretty emotional yesterday when you explained
2 to Mr. Vasic that the actual fact was you came across Ovcara and the
3 hangar quite by accident and that is where the problem arose, and I'm
4 asking you: Were not members of your 80th Motorised Brigade at the hangar
5 even prior to your arrival? Would that not be true?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Didn't you say yesterday that the rope had been set up already at
9 A. Just several soldiers.
10 Q. Did you not say yesterday that the rope had already been set up by
11 the time you arrived?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Just a minute, please. Yes or no.
14 A. Yes. The rope had already been set up by the time I arrived in
15 the hangar.
16 Q. Do you know that this rope was strung up by Vezmarovic, or at
17 least, that's what he claims before this Chamber?
18 A. I have no idea who set it up. All I know is when I came there it
19 was there and it was up already.
20 Q. What if I told you that this was Vezmarovic, that his military
21 police company did that? Would it not seem to imply that they preceded
22 you at Ovcara inside the hangar? I will do my best. Thank you.
23 A. I can't confirm that. I believed Vezmarovic to be on his way from
24 Mitrovica to Negoslavci at the time. I didn't realise that he had been to
25 the hangar previously.
1 Q. What about members of his company? Maybe they were the ones who
2 put the rope up, the rope that you claim to have seen when you arrived.
3 A. It may have been the local commander, whose name I shouldn't
4 mention. Maybe there were two or three members of his group with white
5 belts, but Vezmarovic was not there at the time.
6 Q. Furthermore, you stated that you had found there a regular JNA
7 soldier who was drawing up some sort of list, right?
8 A. No, I didn't say he was a regular JNA soldier. He was a soldier
9 who was seated there. He wasn't wearing a cap or anything. I'm not sure
10 if he was JNA or anything else.
11 Q. So who is it drawing up this list now? You were the commander
12 there and you were protecting the prisoners and there was somebody drawing
13 up lists of those prisoners. Did you check that or not?
14 A. I didn't check who it was. I realised that there was a person in
15 uniform seated at that table there, or desk, and drawing up lists. Now,
16 as to who he was, from which unit, I really don't know.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please be
18 asked to remove his hand from his mouth while speaking; we can't hear him
20 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation].
21 Q. If I tell you that this member --
22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge, please.
23 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Mr. Vojnovic, can you remove your hand,
24 because the interpreters can't hear you. Can you remove your hand from
25 the microphone. Thank you.
1 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] May I continue, Your Honour?
2 Q. When talking about Vezmarovic, you have stated several times that
3 you believed him to be on his way from Mitrovica back to Negoslavci and
4 then on to Ovcara at the time, right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. What if I told you that he, while testifying before this
7 International Court, clearly stated that he had been in Nijemci on that
8 day and not in Mitrovica at all, but rather that it was from Nijemci that
9 he eventually reached Negoslavci and, after that, Ovcara? Would that
10 change anything about the way you feel about this particular incident?
11 A. No, it does not at all. To the best of my knowledge, whether he
12 went from Mitrovica to Nijemci, I don't know. All in all, I'm saying he
13 wasn't there, because why else would I be requesting assistance?
14 Q. Let's leave this story alone for a while. You've been repeating
15 this over and over for two days; he wasn't there.
16 A. Yes, but that's the very same thing you're telling me about those
17 two days.
18 Q. I asked you about Nijemci.
19 A. I don't know.
20 Q. Are you saying Vezmarovic isn't telling the truth when he says
21 that he was in Nijemci on that day?
22 A. No, I'm not saying that. He may have left Mitrovica and drove
23 through all the villages on the way in order to get there.
24 Q. Very fine. Thank you. Did you have any military of your own in
1 A. I think that I did, but I don't know exactly which one.
2 Q. Would you please be so kind -- try to remember something specific,
3 at least.
4 A. I may be wrong: I think it was an engineers unit or something.
5 Q. Thank you. You say that you had a Campagnola with a piece of
6 radio equipment; right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Is this vehicle usually referred to as the small command staff
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Is that MS -- MKSK, is that the abbreviation normally used?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Was this vehicle typically not at the disposal of battalion
14 commanders only?
15 A. Yes, in terms of the establishment, but not always.
16 Q. That means that some lower-ranking officers, company commanders
17 and so on, could not have had it.
18 A. No, the battalion commanders did not have all this equipment. In
19 terms of establishment-wise, they were supposed to have all this
20 equipment, but in actual fact they didn't.
21 Q. What about your military police company commander? He is a man
22 within whose remit it is to guard the prisoners at Nijemci. We believe
23 this was the case. Who could possibly have summoned him back for a new
25 A. I think he came of his own accord, not having been summoned by
1 anyone, he came to Negoslavci. At Negoslavci he heard at the brigade
2 command that there was some sort of a mess at Ovcara. Without waiting, he
3 just drove straight on to Ovcara.
4 Q. And he arrived without any of his military policemen?
5 A. I don't know who he came with.
6 Q. I'm asking you.
7 A. I don't think he came alone.
8 Q. What about his military police company? Were they perhaps at
9 Ovcara already by the time he arrived?
10 A. Not that I saw them.
11 Q. But you're saying that you do know. Firstly you say that you know
12 that no one summoned him back and then I asked you: How do you know that
13 no one summoned him back? Who told you that?
14 A. The duty operations officer.
15 Q. What exactly did he tell you?
16 A. That he had been told that Vezmarovic had already gone back.
17 There was a mess at Ovcara, the commander was there, and he said something
18 else. He wasted no time driving back and he drove straight back.
19 Q. Thank you very much. Does that mean that when he got to Ovcara he
20 found you there since the duty operations officer told him that the
21 commander was already there?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Thank you. Does that now imply that you actually saw him arrive
24 at Ovcara?
25 A. I'm not sure if I saw him arrive that very minute.
1 Q. When was it, then?
2 A. It's very difficult for me to say. There were a lot of people
3 milling around. There was a lot of coming and going. I do know that he
4 was there, though.
5 Q. Who was in charge at this time? You know that he was at Ovcara.
6 Who was in charge of establishing order, imposing discipline? Would that
7 be the military police company commander or you?
8 A. No, it was Major Vukasinovic.
9 Q. For what, in charge of what?
10 A. He was the one who brought the prisoners there, he was the one who
11 took them inside the hangar.
12 Q. Just a minute, sir. Who was it that pulled the rope up? Was that
13 done by Major Vukasinovic?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Was Major Vukasinovic drawing up lists that you saw?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Was Major Vukasinovic physically imposing order inside the hangar?
18 A. No, but that would have been his duty.
19 Q. Was all of this not in fact not done by members of your 80th
20 Motorised Brigade?
21 A. It should have been --
22 Q. I'm asking you about the facts.
23 A. Facts about what?
24 Q. All you're telling us about.
25 A. No.
1 Q. All these actions, all these steps, everything that I've just told
2 you, what about the facts? Were all these things not done by members of
3 -- your members of the 80th Motorised Brigade?
4 A. Yes, pursuant to orders of Major Vukasinovic because he --
5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the speakers please
6 kindly be asked not to speak at the same time.
7 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Who issued the order to the military police company, to Vukic, to
9 the soldiers of the Ovcara local commander to carry out these tasks that I
10 just asked you about? Was it you?
11 A. I told --
12 Q. Did you issue this order to all of them?
13 A. I issued an order to Vukic to report to Major Lukic [as
14 interpreted] --
15 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers pleased be asked to slow
16 down, especially Mr. Borovic. It is very difficult to have an accurate
17 transcript at this pace -- actually, it's impossible.
18 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Did you see Major Vukasinovic ordering any kind of order or not in
20 your presence?
21 A. They were talking to some people there; we don't know who they
23 Q. I'm going to repeat my question for the third time: Did you see
24 Major Vukasinovic issuing an order members of the military police company,
25 to the soldiers of the local commander of Ovcara, to you, or to anyone
1 else, or not?
2 A. No. I -- no assignment was issued to Major Vukasinovic. I don't
3 know whether he said anything to members of the military police.
4 Q. So you didn't hear it.
5 A. No, I did not.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we now briefly
8 go into private session.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
10 MR. MOORE: Before we go into private, or even when we're in
11 private, 21:3, I wonder whether in actual fact that is correct. There is
12 a reference to a Major Lukic.
13 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Moore. It should
14 state Major Vukic.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Vukic is not a major, it's not
17 MR. MOORE: No, that can't be right either. Perhaps the question
18 could be asked again.
19 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.
20 Q. When Vukic came at your summons, did you order him to do anything?
21 A. Yes, I did.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] I asked us to move into private
25 MR. MOORE: But we haven't dealt with the topic.
1 [Private session]
11 Pages 9048-9054 redacted. Private session.
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
11 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Can the witness explain to us, in case of an urgent necessity, how
13 can he get in touch with the commander of the military police company when
14 he needed him for an urgent assignment and he was not at the command post?
15 A. I don't know. He was constantly in communication with the chief
16 of security. Not with us, though, because he did not have a radio device
17 installed in his vehicle. He didn't have an adequate vehicle. These were
18 just provisional ill-equipped vehicles that were used at the time.
19 Q. Did Vezmarovic drive a Campagnola?
20 A. Yes, but not every Campagnola is equipped with a radio device.
21 Q. Thank you. Do you know if members of the military police company,
22 together with the prisoners, arrived at Ovcara before you came?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Do you know where they were at the time?
25 A. Members of the military police company? I've explained that. I
1 assumed they were somewhere between Sremska Mitrovica and Negoslavci.
2 Q. Thank you. You've also stated to the investigators of the OTP
3 that you've learned from some local inhabitants at Negoslavci about the
4 crime at Ovcara.
5 A. Yes, the next day.
6 Q. My learned friend asked you a question yesterday and I wanted to
7 follow-up. Did you have any physical contact with any investigator after
8 the events, physical contact? Did you meet with any investigator?
9 A. Do you mean investigator from this Tribunal?
10 Q. No, from Vukovar.
11 A. No.
12 Q. Can you explain to the Chamber how it came that you left Slovenia?
13 A. Slovenia: In an organised fashion, together with other units that
14 were pulled out of Slovenia.
15 Q. Thank you. Before this organised withdrawal, where were you in
17 A. I was in the Slovenska Bistrica garrison. I was commander of the
18 11th Partisan Brigade, and almost 100 per cent of our troops were
20 Q. How did it come about that you left the garrison?
21 A. An order came from the superior command.
22 Q. Did you withdraw without any fighting from the garrison in
24 A. No.
25 Q. Please explain.
1 A. We secured our facilities that were attacked, and in the meantime
2 an agreement was reached to have a cease-fire, and that's how we pulled
4 Q. Thank you. Would you agree with me that you haven't fired a
5 single bullet before pulling out of Slovenia?
6 A. I do agree, and luckily so.
7 Q. Did you fire a single bullet at Ovcara before you left and
8 abandoned the prisoners at the hangar?
9 A. I did not.
10 Q. If we are to go back to the Mitnica group now, did your military
11 police company represent the main part of the security detail at Ovcara at
12 the moment?
13 A. My officers who were securing the Mitnica group in the hangar were
14 there together with some members of the military police company.
15 Q. Thank you. The local commander of Ovcara, whose name we are not
16 going to mention, was he the chief negotiator between the European
17 Community and the Operations Group South?
18 A. When the Mitnica group was there?
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. I don't know. But I think he was assisting with the transport and
21 security of civilians, of women and children, since he spoke English, and
22 he offered -- he lent a hand there.
23 Q. Thank you. Did he do that with your approval or his own?
24 A. People were talking there, and he took part. He would explain to
25 both sides what the requests were, what the opinion was, and he would pass
1 on orders, and I believe it functioned well.
2 Q. My question was: Did he do that based on your approval?
3 A. We were together. I didn't tell him: Please translate this for
4 me. When they would ask questions, that was the first time that I
5 realised that (redacted) spoke English, and this was a conversation we
6 had. I didn't prohibit him from talking. Why would I?
7 Q. You said that the task had been carried out successfully.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Concerning that particular task, how many members of the 80th
10 Motorised Brigade were there together with officers?
11 A. I don't know; not too many.
12 Q. How many, approximately?
13 A. I really can't say. There was an officer there, perhaps some of
14 his associates, a group of soldiers, myself, some of our officers. I
15 didn't need to remember that. It was done successfully, and I'm quite
16 happy because of that.
17 Q. Who commanded over the entire situation? Did you?
18 A. I was the most senior officer at the time there.
19 Q. And so you were in command?
20 A. I believe so.
21 Q. You were. Did you say you were?
22 A. Yes. I don't know whether I commanded, but I was the most senior.
23 Given that was a military situation, there was no need to have that
24 clearly defined.
25 Q. I asked you specifically who led the entire action. You said you
1 were the most senior person there. I want to have a clear answer for the
2 transcript: Were you the main person there and did you have the
3 operation, did you follow it through?
4 A. I know there were seven to nine buses of women and children.
5 Q. We know who was there. With your 80th Motorised Brigade, did --
6 were you in charge of the entire operation?
7 A. We secured the people and they were taken away in an organised
8 way, but I don't know exactly where.
9 Q. Can we agree that the soldiers of your 80th Motorised Brigade
10 carried out the entire operation of securing the prisoners, doing the
11 negotiations by themselves, that it was only them there?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Thank you. Another question: Why didn't you repeat the same
14 thing on the 20th of November with the same troops? You had done that on
15 the 18th.
16 A. It wasn't the same operation; it was a completely different
17 situation. On the first occasion I was the most senior. There were no
18 officers from the superior command; in the latter example, there were.
19 Q. On the 20th of November, did you ask for any assistance from where
20 you were? You had your MKSK. Did you ask for a military police battalion
21 to be sent or did you ask for any other unit that you may have deemed
22 helpful? Did you ask that other members of the 80th Motorised Brigade
23 come there because you could issue orders to them and you could ask for
24 their assistance on the 20th of November from the location where you were?
25 A. Only the person who organised the whole thing and brought the
1 people to the hangar could have done that.
2 Q. I will repeat the question: Did you ask for assistance --
3 MR. MOORE: I'm sorry. I have no idea why the witness is being
4 asked the question. He's given a perfectly clear answer. Why should the
5 witness have to answer the question when he's answered so clearly?
6 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Mr. Borovic.
7 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, excuse me. The witness
8 did not provide a clear answer; he rather switched to another topic. My
9 question was quite clear. Since he had a radio device in his MKSK, did he
10 personally ask for some assistance, since he was on the location? As to
11 who had the right to do that or not, that's another issue.
12 Q. To repeat the question: Did you ask for any assistance from
14 A. I answered already. I didn't ask for any assistance. The person
15 who brought those people was the only who could have asked for some help.
16 He was the one to bear the responsibility.
17 Q. Could you read out a paragraph -- but before that, I'll ask you
18 this: Were there any proceedings instigated against you before the court
19 in Belgrade for the incidents at Ovcara?
20 A. No, this is the first time I've heard of it.
21 Q. Were you ever interviewed as a suspect by any security organ or
22 the police?
23 A. No. This is a statement given to the security organ. Maybe you
24 had that in mind. I gave a statement to the security organ of the general
25 staff and to the military court.
1 Q. In your statement in paragraph 42 - and that was the statement
2 given to the OTP investigators - the same number in the B/C/S and in the
3 English - that was in September and October of 2003 - you stated the
4 following. I will read it out and please follow.
5 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] And I would kindly ask the usher to
6 give that statement to you since I don't see it before you. We have an
7 extra copy here; perhaps it could be passed on to the witness.
8 Q. Please go to paragraph 42. In the first sentence of paragraph 42,
9 does it state the following: "Considering my experience as JNA commander,
10 and specifically my experience from Vukovar, I would not have handed over
11 the evacuees/prisoners to anyone but the legitimate government."
12 Is that what is stated here?
13 A. Yes, it is.
14 Q. And then a few lines down does it state the following: "If Mrksic
15 had ordered me to hand over the evacuees to the --"
16 MR. MOORE: I'm sorry, if my learned friend is going to read the
17 passages, he must put the whole paragraph so the witness has an
18 opportunity of seeing the context.
19 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] I will continue, Your Honour, and
20 perhaps my learned friend can clear things up in his redirect. We needn't
21 go through the entire paragraph; we know the context. And I'm interested
22 in particular in the lines I wanted to read out.
23 "If Mrksic had ordered me to hand over the evacuees to the local
24 Serbian TO, I would have obeyed the order on the condition that the
25 evacuees were given no trouble. However, if I had been there alone as the
1 most senior officer, I would have seen to it that the evacuees were taken
2 to a safe place and would have sent the TO away. (I would have barred
3 their presence)."
4 Q. Is that what is stated there, Mr. Vojnovic?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. First of all, was Dragi Vukosavljevic trying to warn you to do
7 something similar to as described here?
8 A. What do you mean "to do something"?
9 Q. To do as you stated in this statement, had you been at Ovcara and
10 had you been the most senior-ranking officer?
11 A. No, no.
12 Q. But this is what is stated here. You said --
13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.
14 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Did Dragi Vukosavljevic try to warn you that those evacuees should
16 be taken someplace else and the TO members sent away?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Had you been the most senior officer, why wouldn't you have done
19 that, as you stated here?
20 A. Had I been the most senior and had I been responsible, I would
21 have secured them. I wasn't the most senior, however; it was Major
22 Vukasinovic. He had brought them there and he was tasked with their
23 security. This was -- what I tried to do with the prisoners can clearly
24 be seen with the situation with the Mitnica group and the way I handled
25 the situation there.
1 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't catch the last part of
2 the answer.
3 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. With the 80th Motorised Brigade and your members of the military
5 police company as well as your officers -- on the 20th of November,
6 together with your officers, with your military police company, and other
7 members of the 80th Motorised Brigade, would you have been able to see
8 this task through successfully had you had the orders and the authority
9 you stated here?
10 A. I had no authority of command over the TO.
11 Q. But suppose you did. With the troops you commanded, could you
12 have seen the tasks through successfully?
13 A. I had no powers over the TO.
14 Q. But assuming you had, my question was quite clear, and do not try
15 to interrupt me. With the forces you had and considering the way you
16 handled things the first time around, could you have done this
17 successfully the second time?
18 A. I would have had I been given the responsibility of the prisoners.
19 Q. Does that mean that you had the sufficient troops who could have
20 seen that through?
21 A. Not only the troops. Had I been given the task, I would have done
23 Q. Thank you.
24 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] This concludes my cross-examination.
25 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you, Mr. Borovic.
1 Mr. Lukic, are you going to start? We have 15 minutes before the
2 break. That's --
3 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think this was not
4 recorded properly. I asked: "Would you have had sufficient forces to
5 complete that task had you been entrusted with it?" And the answer was:
6 "If I had been given the assignment, I would have had sufficient forces
7 at my disposal to complete the task."
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, as was the case previously with
9 the Mitnica group.
10 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Thank you very much.
12 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you, Mr. Borovic.
13 Mr. Lukic.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I've just checked the
15 time. I may as well begin now, but then the next session would only be a
16 one-hour session. It might be more helpful to have the break now, but it
17 might be better to give the witness a chance to rest and then resume after
19 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Very well, Mr. Lukic. We will have our
20 break now. Since there has been a redaction, we will have half an hour
21 break, so we will gather at 20 past 11.00.
22 --- Recess taken at 10.50 a.m.
23 --- On resuming at 11.24 a.m.
24 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Mr. Lukic.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Again, good morning, Your
1 Honours, good morning to all.
2 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:
3 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Vojnovic, good morning. I am Novak Lukic,
4 one of Veselin Sljivancanin's Defence counsel. I will be asking you some
5 questions. You have your own statements in front of you and some of the
6 documents that we shall be looking at in search of answers. First I'll
7 ask you a couple of questions. This was something that was raised by
8 Mr. Moore at the beginning of his examination-in-chief, something about
9 your statements. It is quite obvious that you have provided quite a
10 number of those and you have given a lot of evidence on these events that
11 you have been talking about here over the last couple of days. Some of
12 those testimonies were quite extensive and quite detailed. You will agree
13 with me on that, right? I mean, primarily in relation to Ovcara in
14 Belgrade. You testified for two days. You were confronted with the
15 testimonies of other witnesses, and you were asked a lot of questions.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. In relation to your statement to the OTP, and you have that set of
19 statements in front of you so you can have a look, please. Your statement
20 to the OTP, there's one thing that I've noticed. This conversation went
21 on for three days; 24th, 25th -- the 25th and 26th September, 2003, and
22 the 2nd of October, 2003.
23 A. The best part of the conversation lasted for two days. The third
24 day I only came back to go through the statement and sign it, but we
25 finished most of the interview on the first two days.
1 Q. That's fine. Thank you. Another thing that I've noticed is the
2 OTP had a very strong team representing it. There was Mr. Theunens, there
3 was Kristina Carey, and I realise that an observer was present from the
4 General Staff of the armed forces, Dragan Dusenovic. He was there
5 throughout, right?
6 A. Yes, there was a colonel representing the General Staff the first
7 two days, not the third day.
8 Q. I believe that you provided detailed answers to a wide range of
9 questions raised by the OTP in relation to just about everything they
10 wanted to know about, and you probably had some answers. Right?
11 A. Yes, at least to the extent I now remember.
12 Q. So much for the statements. Thank you. I'll ask you the usual
13 question I ask witnesses here, something about my client. A couple of
14 questions about Veselin Sljivancanin. You told Mr. Moore that when you
15 arrived in Negoslavci you knew virtually none of the officers from the
16 Guards Brigade. I do assume, however, that you met my client at the
17 command of the operations group of the Guards Brigade. Did you know
18 Sljivancanin back then?
19 A. I did not know a single officer from Operations Group South until
20 my arrival in Negoslavci. It was in Negoslavci that I met the innermost
21 circle of brigade commanders, including Major Sljivancanin.
22 Q. Thank you. I concluded from your evidence - I'm now talking about
23 the 20th of November alone, the afternoon hours - regardless of how long
24 this took, throughout that time you did not see my client inside the
25 hangar or around the hangar there. You didn't, right?
1 A. That's right, I didn't see him there.
2 Q. That was your evidence in all the different trials in which you
3 testified. Can you look at paragraph 46 of your statement to the OTP.
4 You were shown a photograph of my client. I'll just read that to you, and
5 you say: "Veselin Sljivancanin, I did not see him at Ovcara or at the
6 meeting on the 20th of November, 1991, at the command post of the Guards
7 Brigade. However, I was late to that meeting and by the time I arrived,
8 the other officers were leaving already."
9 This is what you stated back then. Just for the sake of
10 precision, I will ask you to do this: Can you please get the transcript
11 from the Belgrade trial, dated the 25th of November. You should have it
12 right in front of you. The reference is page 20, and for the benefit of
13 my learned friends and the Chamber, the English reference is page 23, line
14 8. You provided very specific answers to these questions, and I want that
15 to be reflected in our records, too.
16 A. Where exactly is that?
17 Q. Page 20, the transcript is the 25th of November, 2004. Have you
18 found that, the Belgrade Ovcara trial? Page 20. Further down the page,
19 Deputy Prosecutor Dusan Knezevic, halfway down the page, this question:
20 "I should like to know whether Major Sljivancanin was present when the
21 witness Lieutenant-Colonel Vojnovic informed Colonel Mrksic of the
22 situation with the prisoners."
23 A. I don't know --
24 Q. Just a minute, please. Let us just finish this. I'll read the
25 entire paragraph and then can you please start answering after that.
1 "Presiding Judge: You did answer that question yesterday, didn't
3 "Witness Vojnovic: What I said was I cannot confirm 100 per cent
4 whether he was there or not.
5 "Presiding Judge: But you did say no to that question yesterday.
7 "Witness Vojnovic: Well, I'm still saying the same thing. I did
8 not see him.
9 "Presiding Judge: Yesterday, when answering a question of mine to
10 that effect, you answered no. You said that Mrksic, yourself, and
11 Vukosavljevic were there, whereas you didn't see him. You are talking
12 about a room where there are a number of people and that is now in this
14 "Witness Vojnovic: I didn't see him then. I mean, Mrksic is
15 quite a striking man. He stands out and people knew him. I think I would
16 have noticed him, and I knew him.
17 "Presiding Judge: Never mind noticed. Did you talk or didn't
19 "Witness Vojnovic: I did not contact him personally, but I did
20 not see him. I do not know whether he was there.
21 "Presiding Judge: Sljivancanin, yes, probably, but he says
22 Mrksic is tall and a striking man. He said 'Mrksic.' All right."
23 The final question by the Prosecutor: "So was he in that room or
24 wasn't he?"
25 Your answer: "I did not see him."
1 Mr. Vojnovic, there's a slight discrepancy there. Mrksic, his
2 striking looks, then Sljivancanin, you were obviously talking about
3 Sljivancanin. Do you still stand by everything you said in Belgrade?
4 A. Yes. I did not see him then.
5 Q. Thank you very much. Let's move on. Now, I'll ask you something
6 else about my client, Mr. Sljivancanin. Let's go to the very end of the
7 time-line, if I may put it that way, the meeting at Velepromet. My client
8 says - and tell me if I am wrong - that the meeting was held on the day
9 the Guards Brigade was about to leave, the 24th at about 1400 hours. That
10 very day when the Guards Brigade was about to withdraw, there was this
11 meeting at Velepromet, the one you described for us. Is that possible?
12 A. I'm sure the meeting took place. What he said is true. I said
13 that was just before the Guards Brigade left, but I didn't give the date.
14 I thought it may have been a day or two earlier, but that makes no
16 Q. Let me jog your memory about something that my client claims.
17 Mr. Vojnovic, do you remember that the main subject discussed at the
18 meeting to which my client had been invited by the TO commanders was the
19 fact that the TO commanders then requested from him that the money be
20 handed over to them that the army had previously found in the Vukovar
21 bank? Sljivancanin replied they couldn't have the money, that the money
22 would be given to the civilian authorities once these had been
23 established, that the money would then be returned. Do you remember that
24 being the main subject discussed at the meeting?
25 A. I can't really remember that this was the crucial thing discussed
1 at the meeting. They were saying things like that, but I'm not sure if
2 that was the most important subject matter actually raised at the meeting.
3 There were references later on to other requests for money, the money from
4 the post office. And I know people were saying that they would be given
5 the money through some other channels or through someone else's mediation.
6 This may have been mentioned by Major Sljivancanin and it certainly was
8 Q. So this was discussed.
9 A. Yes, and it was also discussed later on.
10 Q. Both Vujovic and Vujanovic were adamant about the money, weren't
11 they? People from the TO staff, but Sljivancanin stood firm and refused
12 to hand the money over to them, didn't he? Is this possible?
13 A. Yes, it's possible. It may have been like that.
14 Q. Fine. Let's move on.
15 You've talked a lot about the area of responsibility, about the
16 relationships within OG South. You understand, given my client's profile,
17 I'm especially interested in the relationships between the military
18 police, the security, and the commander. So I'll ask you several
19 questions about that. I believe the Prosecutor previously examined you on
20 this. I heard - and I believe this is beyond dispute - that your military
21 police company of the 80th Motorised Brigade remained there as a staff
22 unit when you arrived in Negoslavci. Right?
23 A. Yes. Right there, near the command.
24 Q. They were going about their regular duties in terms of providing
25 security for the command post for the commander himself. There was a
1 check-point, we heard; all of this was going on in Negoslavci. Right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. In general terms, and I'm talking about the staff units that
4 remained under your direct command, did any of those officers ever tell
5 you about any lack of discipline in those units, disciplinary violations?
6 I especially want to know about the military police company. Did any of
7 the officers ever mention anything like that?
8 A. The entire unit was made up of reservists. It was difficult to
9 mobilise. It was difficult to actually bring there. There were problems,
10 there were a number of incidents, but nothing that would have caused any
11 major concerns.
12 Q. I suppose you received reports about this both from the chief of
13 security and the company commander. Right?
14 A. I wasn't much in touch with the company commander. He did come to
15 see me once and he said a thing or two about that.
16 Q. Mr. Vojnovic, we are on the verge of being cautioned by the
17 interpreters. Please make a short pause so that the entire question and
18 the entire answer may be recorded.
19 I realise by looking at your CV that at one point in time you were
20 a commander of a military police company. Right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You completed a six-month training course, specialised training,
23 in Pancevo for military police officers. Right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now, we've heard evidence before this Court and we've looked at
1 the regulations. I don't want to press the issue -- well, depending on
2 any answers I may be getting from you in due course, but what I want to
3 know now is the provisions that were in force at the time when all of this
4 was going on in Vukovar. You will agree with me that the rules governing
5 the work of the armed forces are fundamental, the rules govern governing
6 the military police in the armed forces, and the rules governing the work
7 of the security officers in the armed forces. These are the main sources;
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Based on these regulations, who commands a military police
12 A. Based on the regulations -- well, that could change. Sometimes it
13 was a staff unit and sometimes it was directly under the command of the
14 commander of a superior unit. But for the most part it would be the unit
15 commander through his own technical organ, the chief of security.
16 Q. You say that under the regulations the security organ is in
17 command of the military police directly?
18 A. Yes, they provide professional and technical guidance.
19 Q. All right. That's right. We have to look at the regulations.
20 You have them right in front of you. I don't want to press this issue,
21 but do you agree with me that a military police company is commanded by
22 the company commander, and his superior officer, in terms of the chain of
23 command, is the commander of a superior unit? A brigade, let us assume
24 that for the time being, if it's a staff unit, and in terms of technical
25 guidance, it is the security organ from the brigade command that is in
1 charge of this unit. Right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And the security organ makes proposals to his superior in terms of
4 the chain of command, the brigade commander, the use of a military police
5 company proposes measures in relation to the military police company but
6 cannot directly issue an order except by the commander's approval. Right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. I hope we don't have to go back to the rules and look at them just
9 because of this, but still --
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe you, too,
11 have ... Just a minute, please. Let me ask the witness for his
12 professional expertise. He seems to be extremely well-versed in these
13 matters. Exhibit 107, the rules of service for the security organ.
14 Q. Mr. Vojnovic, you have in front of you the rules of service both
15 for the military police, but we'll not be looking at that now. I believe
16 we've covered that ground, as it were. But can you please have a look at
17 the rules of service for the security organ. This is Exhibit 107. Let's
18 look at Article 16. Have you found it? I'm going to read it.
19 A. The jurisdiction of the military police, is that it?
20 Q. No, no, it's the rules of service for the security organs.
21 Article 16, controlling the security organs. We've marked it.
22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter's note: We don't have a copy of
23 the original.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I am reading. For the interpreters, I
25 hope it will be slow enough.
1 "Controlling the organs of security, Article 16.
2 "The security organs -- the security organ is directly
3 subordinated to the officer of the command of the unit or institution or
4 the armed forces staff in whose establishment formation it is placed and
5 is responsible for its work to that officer. Security organs of the JNA
6 in organisations of the MVO are responsible to the federal secretary of
7 the federal organ."
8 Q. Mr. Vojnovic, we don't want to interpret the article, but it is
9 clear that the security organ is directly subordinated to the command
10 officer, or to say in the example of your particular unit, Dragi
11 Vukosavljevic is immediately subordinated to you according to the line of
13 And now we have Article 18, because we also discussed that. These
14 are the relationships of the security organs between the commands at
15 different levels.
16 "The security organs --" I'm reading Article 18.
17 "The security organs of the superior command unit, institutions,
18 and staffs of the armed forces control in the expert sense the security
19 organs in subordinated commands, units, institutions, and staffs of the
20 armed forces; provide assistance to those organs; and organise, direct,
21 coordinate, and inspect their work."
22 You would agree with me that the relationship between the security
23 organs at various levels is only at the expert level and there is no
24 command or subordinate aspect there?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Thank you. So to conclude, in relation to Captain Vezmarovic,
2 according to the line of command, only the brigade commander who could
3 have commanded him -- or rather, you, Vukosavljevic would have guided his
4 work from the expert aspect, and some other officer, for example, the
5 Chief of Staff whom you mentioned, could have commanded Vezmarovic only if
6 you authorised him to do that. Is that correct?
7 A. Yes. Or any other officer if something was needed.
8 Q. Right. But only in accordance with your approval?
9 A. Yes, that is correct.
10 Q. I assume that your security chief, either at daily briefings or
11 during the regular daily briefing, regularly informed you about all the
12 information pertaining to his area of responsibility.
13 A. Yes. He would inform the commander about any matters pertaining
14 to his duties that he felt were necessary.
15 Q. When you testified two days ago - this is on page 8826 of the
16 transcript - when Mr. Moore asked you about the relationship -- you don't
17 have that in front of you, I'm just going to read it to you. The
18 relationship between Vukasinovic and Sljivancanin, you said, answer -- the
19 Prosecutor asked you whether Sljivancanin had any duties in relation to
20 your brigade. Your answer was: [In English] "I am not aware of that now,
21 except that he was the chief of Operative Group South and he probably
22 cooperated with my security organs."
23 [Interpretation] You probably meant chief of security and not
24 chief, but I'm interested in something else. You said that he probably
25 cooperated with your security organ. Is that correct?
1 A. Yes, and that's how it is in practice. The security organs of the
2 superior and subordinate command mostly cooperate.
3 Q. Yes. But you said, and I am concluding, because Vukosavljevic
4 informed you personally -- I spoke with Sljivancanin, we exchanged
5 information, or something else. When you said "probably" --
6 A. He never said anything like that, but as far as I know, I did -- I
7 think that he did cooperate with him.
8 Q. Very well. Are you aware that your security organ, from the
9 moment when he -- or, rather, you came to Negoslavci, had continuous
10 contact with the Kragujevac security organ on the -- of the 24th, did you
11 have information about that?
12 A. No, I had no information of -- about him maintaining contact with
13 anyone from the Kragujevac Corps.
14 Q. My question is not clear. I am -- I meant the Kragujevac Corps,
15 the 24th Corps - and this is page 52, line 2 - and we have an answer to
16 that question.
17 Did Vukosavljevic inform you that along the expert line he had
18 contacts, information, reporting with the security organs from the 1st
19 Military District who were in Sid at the time?
20 A. I don't know the details, but I know that he did have some
21 contacts with them.
22 Q. Were these contacts maintained from early November while you were
23 still part of OG South? Do you remember that?
24 A. I don't remember that, and Dragi could not have been in touch
25 immediately. He needed to see exactly where he was, assess the situation,
1 but he probably established contact quite quickly. He probably found
2 those people from the superior command quite quickly and that he got in
3 touch with them.
4 Q. Thank you. We're now moving to another topic. You testified that
5 you were regularly at OG South meetings in the Negoslavci command, which
6 were usually held in the afternoon. Is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you recall that at any of those meetings there was talk about
9 the evacuation of the hospital and there was also talk about who would be
10 carrying out the evacuation of the hospital?
11 A. No, there was no discussion about that and I don't recall that.
12 Q. Thank you. Very well. Let us continue. We're moving to another
13 topic now. From your testimony during these two days, I have drawn the
14 conclusion and I gained the impression that you knew Major Ljubisa
15 Vukasinovic from before, before the time that you said you saw him at the
16 hangar. My question is: Where did you know him from?
17 A. I knew him from the OG South command post. I didn't know him
18 before I came. That's where I met him.
19 Q. The command post of the operations group?
20 A. Yes, that's where I saw him in the group of the officers and
21 senior officers.
22 Q. Tell me, do you know specifically what his post was? You said
23 Sljivancanin's deputy, but I would like a soldier's precision. Do you
24 know exactly what his post was?
25 A. I don't know his specific establishment post, but if Sljivancanin
1 was the chief of security of Operations Group South, then according to my
2 logic and according to the establishment formation, he should have been a
3 clerk in the security organ. As to whether this was really so or not is
4 something that I really cannot assert.
5 Q. Well, I'm going to tell you, and I'm sure my learned friend from
6 the Prosecution would like to know what my position is.
7 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please repeat the post.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Okay. I'm going to repeat the answer.
9 Q. Major Ljubisa Vukasinovic was the assistant chief of security in
10 the Guards Motorised Brigade for staff and police affairs at that time.
11 Are you aware that at the time Major Ljubisa Vukasinovic was also
12 the local commander of Negoslavci, at the same time?
13 A. I didn't know that, but I did read that just now in these reports.
14 Q. I'm just going to digress now. I see, Mr. Vojnovic, that very
15 often when you testify you testify about something that you learned later.
16 What I would like you to do is, when you say something like that, if you
17 could please tell us when you heard it. But it's all right. Yes, let's
18 go on, let's go on. It's not a problem.
19 I see that you followed the testimony of other people and that you
20 have information that you acquired later, and this is something that
21 always needs to be told.
22 A. Yes, I did follow the testimony. I also have some notes. I don't
23 have them with me, but I do have them.
24 Q. At the time did you hear that in Negoslavci, in Vukovar, and at
25 Ovcara on that 20th of November, there were also certain officers from the
1 security administration and from the security organ of the 1st Military
2 District? I'm specifically talking about the 19th and 20th of November.
3 Did you hear that at that time?
4 A. I couldn't really be certain about that -- I mean, I didn't see
6 Q. I see that you followed the trial, but don't tell me that you
7 heard that during the trial. But later, subsequently during those days,
8 did you hear those names and were these names familiar to you, such as
9 Kijanovic, Tomic, Bogdan Vujic, Muncan --
10 A. Vujic Bogdan is a name familiar to me. Muncan too. The others I
11 don't know. Vujic also I'm aware of. It's a name that is familiar to me.
12 Vujic is known to me from some testimony.
13 Q. Please tell me -- I mentioned, besides line, up there, 53, besides
14 Kijanovic, I also mentioned Vujic --
15 THE INTERPRETER: Line 55, interpreter's correction.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Slavko Tomic. I also mentioned the surname Muncan and you said
18 you knew that. Did you hear that name then?
19 A. I heard of the Muncan last name, I don't know in what context. As
20 far as Bogdan Vujic is concerned, I read about him from some testimony. I
21 don't know which one. I don't know before which court, at which organ.
22 In any case, I heard that he had testified somewhere.
23 Q. At that time during the meetings at the Negoslavci command, did
24 you see then-Colonel Nebojsa Pavkovic?
25 A. I saw him once in the OG South command.
1 Q. At the time, did you have information that he was included in the
2 negotiations on the surrender of the Mitnica group and also in the
3 evacuation of the civilians from Vukovar?
4 A. I learned that later and I saw him, that he was at Ovcara before
5 the Mitnica group left, before they were taken to Mitrovica.
6 Q. So on that day - we won't say which day - but on the day that the
7 Mitnica group was leaving, on that day, the hangar in the morning, that's
8 when you saw Nebojsa Pavkovic there at Ovcara. Is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Just one more question on this topic. How far was your Negoslavci
11 command post from the command post of the Guards Brigade or, rather, the
12 OG South command post?
13 A. I think that it was 1 to 2 kilometres at the most.
14 Q. Thank you. We're moving to the next topic. I'm going to ask you
15 a couple of questions now about the Mitnica group evacuation. We
16 presented considerable number of written exhibits and there were quite a
17 number of testimony that the Mitnica group was accommodated in the
18 afternoon on the 18th to the Ovcara hangar and that they left the hangar
19 on the 19th in the morning. But -- well, you've already said that you are
20 not so good with the dates, so we are going to move on.
21 You said that you could have received that assignment either from
22 Mrksic or from Panic. Is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Just one moment. Can you please take the operations diary --
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is Exhibit 371.
1 Q. I would just very briefly like to look at the first page of that
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It's all right if the witness doesn't
4 have a copy. Perhaps we can just look at it on the screen. Could we just
5 look at the first page of the diary. Can we please zoom in on this? The
6 lower portion of the page, please. There.
7 Q. This is your brigade's operations log. Right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. One thing I want to know about - we haven't heard a great deal
10 about that - column number 4. It reads: Signature, received - as far as
11 I can see - recipient's signature and sender's signature. I think that's
12 what it says.
13 A. Yes, yes.
14 Q. So what sort of information is entered here into this column
15 number 4 of the operations log?
16 A. Well, it's self-explanatory, isn't it? Whoever enters a
17 particular piece of information into the operations log is someone who
18 forwards the information, and whoever was on duty was supposed to enter
20 Q. I personally - tell me if I am wrong --
21 A. Very well.
22 Q. I think the information entered here is the information provided
23 by the person who informs the duty officer about whatever information is
24 supposed to be entered. We have your name in several different places. I
25 suppose the information came from you; it wasn't that you entered the
1 information or recorded it?
2 A. Well, yes. There's somebody providing information and there's
3 somebody recording information.
4 Q. So here we see the name of whoever provides information to whoever
5 keeps the log. Right?
6 A. Yes, that's right.
7 Q. That's fine. So much for the log. We've all seen enough of it
8 and we'll be glad to see the back of it, in a manner of speaking, and I
9 suppose the same applies to you.
10 I do want to know something else, though. You were asked by both
11 Mr. Moore and Mr. Vasic about Captain Karanfilov. I'm talking about the
12 18th, I'm talking about the Mitnica group, I'm talking about their day, as
13 it were, when they arrived. You said you didn't know him at the time, you
14 didn't know if he was there or not. And then Mr. Vasic asked you
15 yesterday, he confronted you with your own statement from the Novi Sad
16 investigation. This might have been the person you saw back then -- well,
17 I'll move on to something else because there's something else I want to
18 ask you about.
19 I want to know about some facts you stated at the Belgrade trial.
20 Would you have issued an order to Vezmarovic to take orders from
21 Karanfilov? That is what I really want to know, and you provided a very
22 specific answer at the Belgrade trial to this one. Therefore, could you
23 please go back to your statement -- or your evidence, dated the 25th of
24 November, 2004.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] For the benefit of my learned friends
1 and the Chamber, the reference is the 25th of November. The English
2 reference is page 2, line 32, third paragraph from the bottom up.
3 Q. And for you, Witness, the B/C/S reference -- or rather, the
4 reference in our language -- just a minute, please. Page 2, sir. I was
5 instructed by the Chamber the last time around not to read the question.
6 It says: "Presiding Judge," ten lines from the bottom up, just by
7 way of an example, but the Presiding Judge is here confronting you with
8 the statement of another witness and we have different rules governing our
9 procedure here. It's not the same as the rules that apply back where we
10 come from.
11 I'll just read your answer: "I did not know Captain Karanfilov
12 either; that is for sure. I only knew Vukasinovic and I may have seen him
13 at some meetings."
14 "Presiding Judge --" I'm skipping the first sentence -- "Is it
15 true or not that you told Vezmarovic that he was to take orders from
16 Karanfilov or not?"
17 Answer -- your answer: "I did not say that to Vezmarovic.
18 "Presiding Judge: He says that you did and that is why I am
19 asking you, that is why I am telling you this."
20 Your answer: "As far as I can now remember, I did not say that to
21 Vezmarovic. I heard that Vezmarovic said that he only took orders from
23 "Presiding Judge: What did you hear?"
24 Your answer: "I heard that Vezmarovic said that he only took
25 orders from Karanfilov, as he was a security officer and that was a
1 military police unit.
2 "Presiding Judge: When did you hear this from Vezmarovic?"
3 Your answer: "I later heard this from someone out there that
4 Vezmarovic had stated that he would only be taking orders from the
5 security officer, from Karanfilov."
6 Let us now move on to page 7. That is the B/C/S reference. The
7 English reference is page 7, line 23. Your answer seems to be very
8 determined here.
9 "Presiding Judge: In the investigation procedure -- you also said
10 possibly it was I who told Captain Vezmarovic that he was to take orders
11 from Karanfilov."
12 Your answer: "I did not personally tell him that he was to take
13 orders. I later heard -- I did not hear that I told him this to do that,
14 but I only heard that he said that he would only take orders from
15 Vezmarovic -- or rather, from Karanfilov, him being a security officer and
16 that he would obey his orders."
17 Is that accurate? Did I read this accurately, the exchange
18 between you and the Presiding Judge?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Do you agree with your own evidence from the Belgrade Ovcara
21 trial? You did not order Vezmarovic to take orders from Captain
22 Karanfilov; rather, you said you heard this later on, that you had heard
23 him saying this. Right?
24 A. I heard him saying this, that he would be taking orders from organ
25 Karanfilov. I think he was a major at the time or something, from
1 Karanfilov. I don't remember actually raising this issue with him. I see
2 that Karanfilov is involved, so probably after all that happened. There
3 may have been some omissions or something, but certainly no additions.
4 Q. All right. Let us try to be as precise as possible. You don't
5 remember giving Vezmarovic an order like that, do you?
6 A. No, I don't.
7 Q. And let me add this for your information and also to corroborate
8 my own theory: Karanfilov was a security clerk in a battalion-level unit.
9 You will agree with me, won't you, that in view of his position he had no
10 authority to impart any orders to anyone at all. Right?
11 A. First I hear of him being a security officer in a battalion-level
12 unit. I, myself, believed that he was some sort of a clerk or something
13 from the security of OG South. I really didn't know his assignment.
14 MR. MOORE: Could I just ask my learned friend -- I know there's
15 translation of the word "clerk," and I've seen that on several occasions.
16 Our understanding that that word doesn't mean "clerk," that in actual fact
17 it means "staff officer." In English it tends to mean -- there's a rather
18 big difference, and that's the third time it's happened.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think it is up to Mr. Moore to have
20 this clarified in re-examination. When I say "clerk" that perfectly
21 corresponds with my information. Yes, of course, a staff officer is one
22 thing and a clerk is a different thing. But I think the word "referent"
23 is exactly the word used by the interpretation service. "Staff officer,"
24 that is a very broad concept and can entail a lot of different things, but
25 certainly this particular witness does not have any information about
1 that, and I believe we will be able to establish all these facts later on.
2 Q. Mr. Vojnovic, however, based on all the regulations that we looked
3 at a while ago -- you've seen those. You've given me all the answers in
4 keeping with those regulations. A security officer cannot impart any
5 orders to anyone from the military police. Right?
6 A. Following approval from one of the superior officers, yes, they
7 could. My approval specifically.
8 Q. Yes, that's right. Following your approval, a security officer
9 could, couldn't he?
10 Another simple question: A security officer from a superior
11 command conveying an order to the military police of a subordinate unit,
12 what would the military police company commander first be expected to do
13 upon receiving an order like that? What would be the first thing they
14 should do?
15 A. He should first inform the security officer. But it is very
16 seldom that assignments are given to the company without the security
17 officer's knowledge or the commander's knowledge or the Chief of Staff's
19 Q. I won't ask you any questions about the day when the large number
20 of buses arrived, but I will ask you about something else. However, this
21 is outside the scope of anything that you have been asked so far, so
22 please focus on this. I think you told Mr. Borovic today that you had had
23 some of your units attached to other units in the Sotin area. Right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Your duty and the duty of the command of OG South was to inform
1 the superior command about the killing or wounding of any of the members
2 of your units. Right?
3 A. Yes, precisely.
4 Q. If a soldier or an officer from your unit were killed I suppose
5 you would have to inform your superior command; the OG South command in
6 your case.
7 A. Yes.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown
9 Exhibit 421.
10 Q. You will see a document come up on your screen shortly.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please just zoom in on the
12 upper half of the page, please.
13 Q. Mr. Vojnovic, this is a regular combat report of the OG South
14 command dated the 20th of November, 1991, 1800 hours. This was sent to
15 the command of the 1st Military District and to the SSNO cabinet. Right?
16 A. Yes.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we have page 2 of the same
18 document, please. The lower half of the page, if you can please zoom in,
19 where it says "paragraph 3."
20 Q. Sir, what we see here is information on those killed, seriously or
21 slightly wounded on the previous day from the previous report. Right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. All right. As for those killed, are there any members of the 80th
24 Brigade? I'm talking about the night between the 19th and the 20th, in OG
25 South. Please wait for my question. Please say it now. Do you see
1 anyone there or not?
2 A. No, none.
3 Q. Do you see -- just a minute, please. Thank you. No further
4 questions about this document.
5 At any rate, my question is -- well, let's try to tackle it this
6 way: Do you remember if within your brigade if any members of your
7 brigade were killed on those days?
8 A. No, none. I know what the total was of those killed throughout
9 our time there, throughout our time in Vukovar.
10 Q. But none of your soldiers were killed on those days throughout the
11 area covered by your brigade. Right?
12 A. That's right, none at all.
13 Q. Let's move on to the 20th of November now. I will try - this is
14 will no doubt be easy - to sum up what you say you saw in the hangar. I
15 can't help but observe that there are some discrepancies in your evidence,
16 even over the last two days. You arrive at the hangar sometime in the
17 afternoon. You stand outside the hangar for a while. Once everyone is
18 inside, you join them inside. The highest-ranking person you see there is
19 Major Ljubisa Vukasinovic. You ask him who these people are. He says:
20 These are people from the hospital. You then call for help. You say you
21 called for help even before you entered the hangar.
22 A. I'm not sure if it was before or after, but I did call for help.
23 Q. Two of your officers arrived, Vukic and Dacic, with a group of
24 soldiers. You tell them to go and speak to Vukasinovic, and the next
25 thing you do is you leave. You claim the whole thing took about 30
1 minutes, although you told my learned friend Mr. Borovic today that it may
2 have taken longer. Be that as it may, this was an attempt to sum up what
3 you, yourself, stated. Has that been your evidence over the last two
4 days, sir?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You were not outside the hangar at the moment the buses arrived,
7 but, rather, as the buses were already being emptied, and then the
8 gauntlet and everything else you went on to describe. So this is the
9 point in time when you arrive outside the hangar. Right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. As soon as you entered the hangar, and inside you saw Vukasinovic.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. This was after the last people from the bus were brought inside.
14 A. That's right.
15 Q. And you saw someone making some kind of list in the hangar during
16 the time you were there, and you saw that the rope was set up. Is that
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. When you said that the rope was set up, you didn't explain what
20 that was. Was it to separate the prisoners from the other people? Was
21 that the purpose of the rope?
22 A. Yes, that was the purpose of the rope. It was used to separate
23 the prisoners from the members of the Territorial Defence.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we move into private
25 session for a moment?
1 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Private.
2 [Private session]
14 [Open session]
15 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. You testified that you don't remember -- or rather, that you did
18 not see Lieutenant-Colonel Panic at that time when you were in front of
19 the hangar but that later you heard from him - you probably followed his
20 testimony, as you say - that he confirmed at that time that he was in
21 front of the hangar. Is that correct?
22 A. I heard it from him directly, that he was there, I didn't see him,
23 and I also heard it from the man that was there.
24 Q. All right. Very well. I'm going to ask you something else now.
25 Do you remember - and I think I read that in some of your testimonies,
1 there were many of them so I cannot really recall which one - but do you
2 remember that at the time you saw an unknown colonel as he was leaving the
3 hangar in a Renault 4 vehicle and leaving Ovcara?
4 A. I did see a Renault 4, but it did not go out of the hangar. I saw
5 a Renault 4 standing there. I saw a military person in uniform, the
6 licence plates were Sremska Mitrovica plates, and he left.
7 Q. But that was a colonel by rank; is that what you said?
8 A. I think that it was a colonel, but I am not sure. He left right
9 away. He got into the car and he left.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think it is time for
12 our break now, and then we'll be moving to a different topic.
13 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Public session -- sorry, we are in
14 public. I was confused. Okay, so we will adjourn for -- oh, I'm sorry,
15 Mr. Weiner.
16 Mr. Weiner: Good afternoon, Your Honour, I am Phil Weiner for the
17 Office of the Prosecutor. We were advised by the Defence that they will
18 be spending at least another session with this witness, and then if you
19 add to that examination in chief -- sorry, redirect examination, that
20 should take most of the day. We have the next witness here. Since we
21 will probably be running most of the day with this witness, may I release
22 that witness until tomorrow morning?
23 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you, Mr. Weiner.
24 Mr. Lukic, can you confirm that timing?
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I can confirm that we will need more
1 than one session, at least for my cross-examination. We might even take
2 to the rest of the day. I have a lot of questions arising from the
3 questions of my colleagues, so in any case I think that it will not be
4 possible to begin with a new witness today, especially since Mr. Moore
5 also needs time for the re-examination.
6 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you very much.
7 Okay, Mr. Weiner, you may release the witness.
8 MR. WEINER: Thank you.
9 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Okay. We will adjourn now and convene at
11 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.33 p.m.
12 --- On resuming at 1.33 p.m.
13 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Good afternoon.
14 Mr. Lukic.
15 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 [Interpretation] Before I continue, I just wanted to correct a
17 thing for the transcript. Page 66, line 10, there was my question which
18 hasn't been recorded adequately. The reference should have mentioned page
19 66, line 3, and instead what has been recorded was 663.
20 Q. I asked you about the colonel whom you saw leave in a Renault 4.
21 Timewise, did you see him leave before you entered the hangar?
22 A. I wanted to clarify something. I didn't tell that to Mr. Moore
23 either, and I apologise -- or to anyone else, for that matter. I told
24 this only to the chief of security when I gave my first testimony or first
25 statement, and that was that while the prisoners were entering the hangar
1 I looked up and in a distance, some 20 to 30 metres away, I saw a colonel
2 in a uniform standing next to a Renault 4. And he was observing the
3 struggle I had to get the prisoners inside the hangar. I approached him
4 immediately, I addressed him. I said: Colonel, sir, what is this all
5 about? Please help me to get those people inside the hangar. He didn't
6 say anything. He got in the car, in that Renault 4, and left. He was
7 somewhat short. I don't know his name and I don't remember having seen
8 him ever afterwards. That's what I stated the chief of security when I
9 gave my first statement, but he hasn't entered that into it although I
10 signed it. I also mentioned that that person resembled him and then he
11 jumped up to his feet and said: "No, no, I wasn't there."
12 Q. You said that the plates were those from Sremska Mitrovica. Isn't
13 that correct?
14 A. Yes, from Sremska Mitrovica.
15 Q. When you said that the person resembled a person to whom you gave
16 the statement, you mean Mr. Gajic at the security directorate?
17 A. Yes, I was joking somewhat. He was of the same height but he
18 didn't look like Mr. Gajic.
19 Q. And you also mentioned that in your testimony at the Belgrade
20 Ovcara case?
21 A. The way I phrased it here and now, no.
22 Q. Yes, that is correct. This is the first time I've heard some of
23 the details and I believe this is new for all those in the courtroom.
24 A. Yes, this is the first time they can hear it. I didn't know the
25 man, and Colonel Galic [as interpreted] did not include that in the
1 statement and I basically kept silent from then on, although I shouldn't
3 Q. And because he failed to enter that in the statement, you thought
4 it necessary to avoid mentioning the fact ever after, and you did provide
5 additional statements subsequently.
6 A. Yes, more or less that is as you described.
7 Q. You used to go to the command of OG South and the Guards Brigade
8 to meetings and you don't remember having seen him there?
9 A. No. The only way I remember him is the way I described him; a
10 thin, short man.
11 Q. Thank you. We heard testimonies here that there was some other
12 lieutenant-colonels and colonels at that time during the afternoon and
13 that some senior officers came from the security directorate as well. Do
14 you remember seeing anyone else of that approximate rank?
15 A. No, I didn't see anyone with any rank. I kept repeating, and I
16 probably overdid it, that I saw Vukasinovic and another group of people
17 without any hats but in proper uniform, although I don't know who they
19 Q. Thank you. Just one more question before we go into the hangar,
20 so to say. When you were leaving the hangar and leaving Ovcara, the buses
21 that had been there, did they leave when you left for Ovcara?
22 A. They left one after another. They were parked on the road closer
23 to the western part of the hangar, but I didn't see them when I was
24 leaving the hangar.
25 Q. Yes. I'm interested in the part when you left Ovcara.
1 A. I didn't see them anymore.
2 Q. As regards your leaving Ovcara, when you came out of the hangar
3 did you see any pit with any corpses next to the hangar?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Did you see a tractor in front of the hangar?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Or a backhoe loader?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Let us now move into the hangar itself. There is Vukasinovic,
10 there is the rope, there is the person compiling the list. You've
11 described those in detail. Then Vukic and Dacic came and they report to
12 Vukasinovic, and then you leave.
13 A. They went to see Vukic; he was the group commander.
14 Q. I wanted to read out a portion of your testimony of two days ago
15 in the same context. That is page 8845, the transcript of the 15th of
17 [In English] "They arrived headed by reserve Captain Vukic. He
18 arrived with 15 or 20 men. There were no military police. Perhaps some
19 of them did have military police belts on, but they were not actually the
20 military police because Vezmarovic at that time was still in Sremska
22 [Interpretation] According to your testimony on the first day
23 here, the 15th, when you testified in chief, when you came to the hangar,
24 there was no Vezmarovic to be seen, neither -- nor was Mr. Dragi
25 Vukosavljevic there, your chief of security. The only person you could
1 see there was Ljubisa Vukasinovic. Is that correct?
2 A. Yes. At the first moment I saw Vukasinovic only.
3 Q. And when you gave your statement to the OTP investigators, the
4 investigators gave you your statement before the military court. You had
5 no corrections to make, apart from the fact that you failed to mention
6 Mrksic. That is what can also be seen in your statement given to the OTP.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. When you testified in the proceedings in Novi Sad before Judge
9 Alimpic, you were also faced with your statement given to the military
10 court and you said that you stood by it in full. Do you remember that?
11 A. Yes, I do.
12 Q. Mr. Borovic referred you to that statement on several occasions,
13 but I need to go back to it yet again. Please could you take your
14 statement given before the military court. Page 3 in the English, line 9,
15 this is what you said before the military court. I'm reading from the
16 bottom part.
17 "In the hangar there were those for whom I thought were
18 paramilitaries, perhaps around 20 of them." And today -- yesterday you
19 explained that there were more. "They were guarding those in the hangar
20 and they were all armed. I did not particularly notice that anyone in the
21 hangar was maltreated except when somebody recognised someone, they would
22 approach them and utter a threat or use abusive language, but nothing more
23 than that, at least while I was there."
24 I'm interested in the following portion in particular: "I warned
25 the men in the hangar to treat correctly the people they referred to as
1 their prisoners of war and not mistreat them, stressing that they should
2 take care of how they treat them and behave towards them. After the
3 warning I gave in the hangar, I did not notice that there was any
4 mistreatment anymore."
5 That's what you stated then. Does this jog your memory that back
6 in 1998 you probably remember those events better than you do today, and
7 that is that you actually spoke to those TO members?
8 A. I don't know who I spoke with, but each new testimony jogged my
9 memory, I would remember additional things, and I thought it necessary to
10 mention here that after what I saw in front of the hangar and after what I
11 realised they were doing, I warned them not to mistreat them any further.
12 Q. A few lines further down: "At that time in the hangar or outside
13 of the hangar I saw no other regular units of the JNA or any of its
14 members. I only saw those men who I judged were some kind of paramilitary
15 army, given the clothes they had on. None of them had either JNA uniforms
16 or cap," and so on and so forth.
17 In the subsequent statements, you confirmed that there were some
18 additional JNA people there; and then back in 1999 you stated that you saw
19 no one from the JNA in the hangar. Is that so?
20 A. Yes, apart from Vukasinovic.
21 Q. But in this statement you don't mention Vukasinovic, Dacic, Vukic,
22 or anyone else. You remembered that later.
23 A. I never failed to mention Vukasinovic. He was the only one that I
24 could recognise. I have always claimed that he was there.
25 Q. So as not to waste anymore time, perhaps during the break you
1 could go again through your statement to the military court, and there is
2 not a single mention of Vukasinovic there.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps Mr. Moore could corroborate
4 that as well.
5 MR. MOORE: We don't corroborate that. We have, actually, a
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I believe this will be clarified in
8 redirect. I don't think I saw any mention of Vukasinovic in this
9 statement, but then again, I may be wrong. Perhaps Mr. Moore will deal
10 with this in his redirect.
11 Q. In this statement given to the military court, did you ever
12 mention that you asked for some assistance?
13 A. I don't remember. The only way for me to know is to go back and
14 read the whole thing. That was given in 1998. I don't remember having
15 said that, but I did ask for assistance and it is certain that Vukasinovic
16 was in the hangar. I'm absolutely certain of that.
17 Q. All right. One step at a time. Mr. Vojnovic, I need to describe
18 our position here. Based on the information we have, together with the
19 OTP, as regards Mr. Vukasinovic, he did indeed state that when the last of
20 the buses arrived he was there. He said so himself, so I'm not trying to
21 deny the fact whether Vukasinovic was there at the time when the buses
22 were there, but I'm just trying to point out that you failed to mention
24 A. Yes, I -- perhaps I may have omitted.
25 Q. There are some other facts that they be disputed, and I wanted to
1 discuss that as far as Major Vukasinovic. You described the people you
2 saw with Major Vukasinovic and you said they were wearing M-77 uniforms
3 but you couldn't tell whether they were soldiers or officers, but those
4 were standard-issue uniforms for both file and rank.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Do you remember Vukasinovic, was he wearing the same uniform?
7 A. I think he had the same uniform.
8 Q. You said that he didn't have a cap.
9 A. He didn't.
10 Q. But that he wore this M-77 uniform.
11 A. I believe so. I believe it was M-77 or whether it was a
12 combination of two types of uniforms, I don't know.
13 Q. You see, Mr. Vojnovic, some facts are particularly important. If
14 you don't know, please state so. What's important to me is that you did
15 see Ljubisa Vukasinovic. As you say, you exchanged a couple of words with
16 him. My question is: Was he wearing the same kind of uniform as the
17 persons surrounding him? Can you see the image in your mind's eye?
18 A. I can't be 100 per cent certain. I can't commit.
19 Q. Yet you remember exactly what the people around him were wearing.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. But you don't know what he was wearing?
23 A. I don't know. I can't remember. You're pressing me on this,
24 but --
25 Q. Fine. Let's move on. Yesterday you told Mr. Vasic that you had
1 requested officers from your command in Negoslavci, two officers, as you
2 specified, and some soldiers, because you know -- you knew that Vezmarovic
3 was away at the time. Isn't that what you said?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You told Mr. Borovic today that you thought that later on Dragi
6 Vukosavljevic returned with Vukic and Dacic. They came. Right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You do remember that -- or is that what you told Mr. Borovic? Do
9 you remember him coming with those two men?
10 A. I don't remember for sure, but I think he came with them. It's
11 because the vehicle, I don't know who he possibly could have come with.
12 [Defence counsel confer]
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Let's look at these facts, what you find in the hangar. In the
15 Belgrade Ovcara trial, page 67 of the first day of your testimony, the
16 24th of November. Page 67. The English reference is 97, page 97. The
17 following words in English:
18 [In English] "... what I could."
19 [Interpretation] I will now read out to you a slightly longer
20 portion. Have you found 67?
21 A. No.
22 Q. The 24th.
23 A. Where?
24 Q. In Belgrade.
25 A. I'm not quite there yet.
1 Q. [In English] "I did what I could."
2 [Interpretation] In English, it says, "I did what I could."
3 I'm not sure where on the page that should be.
4 A. And our reference is --
5 Q. Our reference is 67, page 67, the 24th of November. You got that?
6 A. Just about.
7 Q. It's a large portion, but I'll be asking you questions as I go
8 along, because I think there are a couple of discrepancies in relation to
9 your testimony of two days ago.
10 "I did what I could. Later on what I saw around the hangar was
11 some people coming and going. I don't know now how. I can't say for sure
12 how Dragi Vukosavljevic happened to be there, this captain of mine. He
13 was the chief of security, and while this commotion was going on, he
14 proposed -- or rather, he asked whether we should do anything else and
15 asked what it was that we could do to help those people to keep them from
16 being mistreated. We agreed that a military police detachment should
17 come, one of ours from Negoslavci; a Pinzgauer with seven, eight, or nine
18 soldiers, I don't know how many exactly. However, in the meantime,
19 Captain Vezmarovic had arrived."
20 Here is where I'll pause. You agree with me that your testimony
21 in Belgrade is not consistent with what you told us here two days ago. In
22 the Belgrade trial, it comes across that you are conferring with him:
23 Should we call a military police unit or not? And at this point in time
24 Vezmarovic arrives. That's what you said in Belgrade. Right?
25 A. I was there with Dragi. We talked about this. We did ask for
1 help to be sent. I don't know if Vezmarovic came first. I still think
2 Vukic was the first to come, but I can't be certain.
3 Q. One thing at a time, please.
4 A. I can't confirm or deny.
5 Q. Let's move on.
6 "Vezmarovic, I can't remember his name, but no matter. It's clear
7 who we're talking about. All right. When he came back from Sremska
8 Mitrovica, he was driving a group of prisoners, members of the Croatian
9 army, led by Filip Karaula. He returned to the command to report that he
10 had completed the task as necessary and that those people had been handed
11 over smoothly. Someone told him -- someone at the brigade command told
12 him that there was some sort of a mess happening at Ovcara, and he
13 immediately went there to see at his own initiative and out of curiosity
14 and also for reasons of self-promotion. He went there to see for himself.
15 This coincided with the very same thing that we were thinking, that there
16 should be a reinforcement, a military police unit, so there he was."
17 Further down: "In the hangar I saw that Vezmarovic put up a rope
18 separating those people from the group that had brought them there, so to
19 speak, with a rope. I saw that a desk was placed there. Someone was
20 making list. I saw that. Whether it was finished or not, be that as it
21 may, this is what I saw."
22 I'll continue reading, but let me first ask you about this. At
23 the Belgrade trial a year and a half ago, you describe Vezmarovic's
24 arrival, him putting up that rope, and you say you saw the whole thing
25 happen. In Belgrade a year and a half ago you remembered all these
1 things. I see that there is another discrepancy. Can you tell us now:
2 Were you, in fact, speaking the truth in Belgrade when you said this, that
3 you saw Vezmarovic arrive and put up a rope?
4 A. I did see Vezmarovic at Ovcara. I don't know if I saw him the
5 moment he arrived. I don't know who arrived first, again, whether it was
6 Vukic or he. Anyway, they were both there.
7 Q. Fine, but you will agree that there is at least a slight
8 discrepancy from your present testimony.
9 A. Well --
10 Q. Fair enough. Let's move on. You testified under oath in Belgrade
11 and the same seems to be the case now, but that was the way you remembered
12 things at the time. It's as simple as that. Let me move on.
13 "In the hangar I saw for the first time since I entered Major
14 Vukasinovic. Major Vukasinovic, he is from the Guards Brigade, Major
15 Sljivancanin's deputy then he was. He was standing at a distance from
16 that rope, or rope, whatever I should call it, about 10 metres away, and
17 he was watching what was going on. I approached him and asked him what
18 this was, where all these people were from, who was this and what was
19 going on, and he told me something, but now I really can't remember the
20 details of what it was that he said. I surveyed the situation a little
21 more and realised that things were back to normal. Some of those people
22 in there - what should I call them? - detainees, people, civilians, were
23 standing along the hangar wall. Some were actually sitting on the ground.
24 There was some hay, and some were sitting on the floor. I mean there was
25 some kind of order when Vezmarovic arrived, excuse me, in the hangar. I
1 thought, therefore, that there was nothing there for me to do, although I
2 could not understand at all how this could have happened and that I, as
3 the subordinate commander, had known nothing about it."
4 We all know that there's an audio recording of the Belgrade trial.
5 You spoke these words and you understand that you did, indeed, say this at
6 the trial in Belgrade?
7 A. Yes, I understand that.
8 Q. Well, the first discrepancy I can notice is you say you address
9 Major Vukasinovic. You don't know what he told you a year and a half ago,
10 and two days ago you tell us he spoke to you and he told you these were
11 people from the hospital.
12 A. Yes, indeed.
13 Q. What is it that jogged your memory in relation to this?
14 A. Well, events. I read reports from the trial. I read Major
15 Vukasinovic, who told me there and who stated that he knew that the
16 members of the prisoners would be surrendering or would be handed over,
17 that they were surrendering, not that they were being beaten but that the
18 TO people were interrogating them, or what should I know.
19 Q. So this jogged your memory that he told you these were people from
20 the hospital?
21 A. Yes, and this was confirmed by Lieutenant-Colonel Panic that he
22 knew that people from the hospital would surrender to the TO.
23 Q. I do believe I have to interrupt you, Mr. Vojnovic. Don't draw
24 your own conclusions based on what you heard, what another person told
25 you. Rather, please, if your memory is jogged by what somebody else said
1 about something that you remember because now you are giving us other
2 people's accounts and some of your own conclusions. If you remember
3 something based on something that you heard later, you may as well tell
5 A. I heard later --
6 Q. Very well.
7 A. -- from Lieutenant-Colonel Panic that a decision was made.
8 Q. We know that. We know that.
9 A. You don't know that. Everybody seems to have known. Only we
10 didn't know.
11 Q. That's fine, but Mr. Moore has something to say.
12 MR. MOORE: All I wish to submit is a witness is entitled to give
13 an account of what he has been told by another person who may well be a
14 participant in what I would call the act. It may go to weight in relation
15 to the evidence itself, but it does not mean it's inadmissible.
16 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you for that, Mr. Moore. I think
17 you're right it's not inadmissible, but I think it's important for
18 Mr. Lukic to identify those parts which are direct memory and those parts
19 which are indirect memory.
20 So, please employee, Mr. Lukic.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No, no. I just -- I mean, I think the
22 witness provided a far broader explanation than I wanted, a far broader
23 one, and that's what I asked him, what jogged his memory, what caused him
24 to remember that he was told this by Ljubisa Vukasinovic, but he didn't
25 remember that a year and a half ago --
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As well as his testimony and his
2 statement, and I still have all that written down in my notebook.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. So you say it was from his statement, which I believe you read in
5 the newspapers, you understood that he told you that those were people
6 from the hospital?
7 A. No, he told me so on the spot that those people were from the
8 hospital, and this is something I read later on. His testimony, I mean,
9 what he testified.
10 Q. Please, Mr. Vojnovic, please. Did you -- I mean, when reading the
11 various testimonies of Ljubisa Vukasinovic, hear that he testified about
12 telling you that those were people from the hospital? Did you ever read
13 anywhere that he so testified when you now remembered?
14 A. Yes, I do remember that, but I'm telling you he informed me that
15 those were people from the hospital. Informed in the hangar. I may have
16 omitted that, but in all my further testimony, I kept pointing that out.
17 Q. Very well. Very well. In Belgrade on the 24th of November, 2004,
18 you testified for two days, for a full two days. Not a single word about
19 Vukic arriving at Ovcara. Not a single word. Right?
20 A. Yes, that's right. I just didn't remember at the time. If you
21 hadn't reminded me about the colonel today --
22 Q. So you remembered when you heard what Vukic's testimony had been
23 about. Right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did you actually meet Vukic and Dacic? You say you met Vezmarovic
1 and Dragi Vukosavljevic. Can you just wait a minute, please. Did you
2 actually meet at any time before or after your testimony Svetolik [phoen]
4 A. I did not meet Svetolik Vukic in any way -- any way after his
5 testimony sometime.
6 Q. But that was before you came here to testify. Right?
7 A. No, no -- well, yeah, yeah, before this testimony, yes.
8 Q. You talked and he jogged your memory about all these various
9 points, about the exchange between him and Vukasinovic, that sort of
10 thing, and so on and so forth. Right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. But you never remembered that earlier on, did you?
13 A. No, I didn't.
14 Q. Just a minute, please. In answer to a question by Mr. Vasic
15 yesterday - the page reference is 8959 - you said:
16 [In English] "When help had arrived from the brigade command led
17 by Vukic, when I went inside the hangar, when I realised Vukasinovic was
18 there, he told me who these people were and then there were a group of
19 soldiers that was brought over, between 15 or 20 of them. I thought to
20 myself, here was a man from my support command. I supposed that he had
21 been given assignment. I offered him my help, and he refused."
22 [Interpretation] This was on page 8959 of yesterday. Do you
23 recall saying that like that yesterday?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Another correction: The page was 8959. And then you said
1 yesterday to my colleague Vasic that you offered assistance and that he
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Yesterday, just three pages before that, I found -- just three
5 pages before that, page 8596, Vasic asked you -- [In English] "...
6 Vukasinovic if he needed any assistance." The page is 8956. Your answer
7 was: [No interpretation]. [Interpretation] So you gave two different
8 answers on the same facts.
9 A. No. I offered assistance and he refused. I didn't offer it
10 directly but I did it through Vukic.
11 Q. Your answer to Mr. Vasic was quite a definite one and this was
12 page 8956, decisive answer.
13 [In English] "Did you ask Major Vukasinovic if he needed any
15 [Interpretation] Your answer: [In English] "No, I didn't."
16 A. I did not ask the major directly. I sent Captain Vukic to him to
17 speak to him and ask him if he needed help.
18 Q. All right. Thank you. You explained that nicely to us. Let's
19 move on.
20 Do you recall that during the time you were in the hangar, whether
21 some people were taken to the side -- taken aside, people who claimed to
22 be JNA soldiers, they didn't even enter the hangar because they were
23 separated outside of the hangar. Do you remember anything like that?
24 A. No, I don't remember that. People were going in and out of the
25 hangar, returning. They were talking to somebody. I don't remember
1 anything like that.
2 Q. Very well. I have to go back to the transcript of the day before
3 again. Please don't mind that I am going so much into details. This is
4 important for both you and me so that we could establish the facts.
5 Testimony from two days ago, page 8845. It's not clear to me what
6 you answered in reply to Mr. Moore's question, which was as follows:
7 [In English] "Why did you leave the hangar?"
8 [Interpretation] Your answer: [In English] "First of all, I left
9 the hangar because I wanted to ask for assistance and security from my
10 brigade command. They headed -- They arrived headed by Reserve Captain
12 [Interpretation] I'm asking you -- now, Moore asked you why you
13 left and you said you went to summon assistance, but I see in your
14 testimony that you didn't go until they came. Is that correct?
15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the witness's
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Would you now please tell the Trial Chamber -- please, could you
19 repeat your answer, it was not recorded, but could you please wait a
20 little bit. Can you please repeat your answer.
21 A. I really don't know where it was that I looked for Vukic. All I
22 know is what I told him once he arrived.
23 Q. Very well. Who was Captain or Captain First Class Vukic in your
25 A. Vukic was the chief of the PNHBO in my command. He was a reserve
2 Q. Very well. And who was Captain Dacic?
3 A. Dacic, yes, Dacic. Yes, I can't remember his Christian name. He
4 was, I think, an artillery desk officer in the command.
5 Q. He was also a reserve captain. Is that correct?
6 A. Yes, a reserve captain.
7 Q. Do you remember his face? Do you remember seeing him, that he
9 A. Dacic, yes, I know what he looks like, but I don't recall seeing
10 him there.
11 Q. You said today that it's possible that your security chief
12 Vukosavljevic also came with them. Is that correct?
13 A. Yes. I do know that Dacic and Vukic were close, that they spent a
14 lot of time in each other's company, not just there but before that, too,
15 and that's probably why they came together.
16 Q. You will agree with me that Captain Vukic's arrival was something
17 that you never mentioned in any of the statements that are in front of
18 you. You didn't mention it to the OTP or before the military court or to
19 the Novi Sad investigative judge or in your testimony in the Belgrade
20 Ovcara case. Vujovic you mentioned for the first time now following
21 Vukic's testimony which you heard. Is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Since yesterday and the day before, I am not counting, but you
24 really mentioned the name of this Vukic 15 times or more. I obviously
25 think that, for you, you consider that to be an important fact, to mention
1 him here.
2 A. That's right. The man came in compliance with a summons, an
4 Q. So how do you explain the fact that you never remembered this man
5 before now?
6 A. I didn't remember him. Just like perhaps there's some other
7 details that a person might not recall. I really didn't remember that.
8 Q. But you knew all the details of his testimony in the Belgrade
9 Ovcara trial besides this dialogue with Vukasinovic.
10 A. Well, not really. It was just a small article and he explained
11 about what I was talking about.
12 Q. It would mean a lot to me if you were to tell me in which
13 newspaper you read that.
14 A. Well, I will take it upon myself to send that article clipping to
16 Q. Thank you. I would be very grateful.
17 And you further assert that you sent Vukic to Vukasinovic and that
18 you then left and that they later, as you testified on the first day, told
19 you after a couple of days at the command that Vukasinovic told Vukic that
20 he was free to go and that he then practically left.
21 A. Yes, that he had no assignment for him.
22 Q. Went back to the command. Is that right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now I'm asking you this: You ordered that assistance be sent to
25 you. This assistance arrived. And you ordered Vukic to report to
1 Vukasinovic. Please tell me: Did you order Vukic to return once
2 Vukasinovic allegedly told him that there was nothing for him to do, or
3 did Vukic come on his own initiative?
4 A. No. When actually Vukasinovic ordered him that he was free to
5 return to the unit.
6 Q. Ordered him?
7 A. This man asked him if he had an assignment for him. He said, no,
8 he didn't have an assignment. Again he asked him: Can I return to the
9 unit? And this man said, yes, you can, so he returned to the unit.
10 Q. Very well. What was your order then? That assistance needed to
11 come to help with the security? That was your order. Vukic came in
12 compliance with your order.
13 A. Yes. The order was carried out, order was established, the
14 prisoners entered the hangar, so there was no longer any need for him to
15 stay there.
16 Q. But did you issue him an order to go back? You ordered him to
17 come, so who can order him to go back? Who can tell him to go back other
18 than the person who issued the order?
19 A. Well, at this point Vukasinovic was the most senior-ranking person
20 there, so Vukasinovic could do that.
21 [Defence counsel confer]
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Very well. You claim that Vukasinovic was the most senior-ranking
24 person there. Is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. He had the rank of major and came from the superior command,
2 according to you. Is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. In the hangar, does he have a higher rank and position than you
6 A. I did not stay in the hangar the whole time.
7 Q. At the point when you saw him and when Vukic came, did Vukasinovic
8 Ljubisa, have a higher rank than you, and we know that he did not, and did
9 he occupy a higher position?
10 A. No, he did not, but he was the only person in charge and was
11 tasked with bringing the prisoners to the hangar.
12 Q. Very well. Now I'm asking you the following: Were you present
13 when the buses were arriving in a column to Ovcara?
14 A. I was not present when they came in a column to Ovcara; they were
15 already parked there.
16 Q. Very well. You did not see who was at the head of the column and
17 who brought the buses to Ovcara. You didn't see that.
18 A. No, I did not.
19 Q. We heard from your testimony that you heard that
20 Lieutenant-Colonel Panic was there, and today we heard that there was also
21 some colonel there who left.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You cannot rule out that they were at the head of the column when
24 the buses arrived. Is that true?
25 A. Yes, I really cannot rule that out. I cannot say who was at the
1 head of the column.
2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the last part of
3 the witness's answer.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Ljubisa Vukasinovic did not tell you that he was the person in
6 charge of the evacuation then. You didn't talk with him about that?
7 A. No, I did not. I read that in later reports, that he was
8 conducting this evacuation operation.
9 Q. So you don't know who brought the column and who was the person in
10 charge of the people who brought the prisoners to the hangar. You don't
11 know that, you didn't know it then when you were talking with Ljubisa
12 Vukasinovic, but this was something that you heard later while reading the
13 statements or testimonies. Is that correct?
14 A. Yes, by reading, and of course it seemed natural to me that he was
15 the only most senior-ranking person from the operations group.
16 Q. I'm now going back to the previous question. Was Ljubisa
17 Vukasinovic more senior by the nature of his post or was he lower in his
18 duties than you were in both of your posts? It's a simple question.
19 A. He's a man from the superior command.
20 Q. I entirely agree with you.
21 A. And I don't know how many times I've already said that.
22 Q. Well, let me ask you this -- very well. Who is your superior
23 officer in Vukovar in 1991 when you joined the Operations Group South?
24 What was your superior officer?
25 A. Colonel Mrksic.
1 Q. The commander of the operations group.
2 A. South.
3 Q. We all know what the principle of the singleness and unity of
4 command is. You know that principle.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And subordination.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Was Ljubisa Vukasinovic of a higher rank in relation to you by his
9 rank and position? Yes or no.
10 MR. MOORE: I object to that question. The witness has asked --
11 been asked this question probably ten times and he's answered it equally
12 ten times. He has a perception of it. And in my submission Mr. Lukic has
13 had the answer many, many times. It's a question of the superior command,
14 and the question has been asked so many times.
15 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: I think it has been asked a lot of times,
16 yesterday also by Mr. Vasic. So I think we have gone as far as we can
17 with the witness on this. You think you can take him still further,
18 Mr. Lukic?
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it is probably clear to
20 you from the testimony of this witness how many times he mentioned the
21 name of Ljubisa Vukasinovic as the person who was the most senior person
22 there. I am repeating the question because I simply think that he's
23 evading to answer that question, which is very simple. Mr. Vasic asked
24 that about the commander. I'm asking him now: If that person comes from
25 the superior command, would he be more senior by post than he is?
1 Q. So is Vukasinovic more senior? I don't want to keep on with this
2 subject, but by position is he more senior than Colonel Vojnovic?
3 A. At that point in time I was not in the hangar. I was there for a
4 very short time. I could not take away his functions just because I was a
5 lieutenant-colonel. He had received an assignment, and he knows whom he
6 received it from, and he was carrying it out.
7 Q. Mr. Vojnovic, if the hangar is in the area of responsibility of
8 your brigade, the Ovcara zone, could you have thrown Ljubisa Vukasinovic
9 out? Yes or no.
10 A. No.
11 Q. If somebody, without being called to do so, comes to your area of
12 responsibility from whatever command, is it not your duty to call your
13 superior commander to say who is it that's arriving, who is -- who has
14 come? Is that correct?
15 A. Yes, that is correct. Secondly, he was obliged to stop and to ask
16 whether he could enter the area of responsibility. He had to have an
17 order to be able to enter the area.
18 Q. Is it not your duty to ask him if he had an order and to introduce
19 himself to you; and if he refused to do that, then you would need to call
20 your own commander. Is that correct?
21 A. He entered the area of responsibility using his position and the
22 position of the superior command without any permission at all. I said
23 that yesterday. Anyone who enters the area of responsibility without the
24 knowledge takes upon himself the risk for all that happens in that area.
25 Q. And whose function is it to protect the area of responsibility if
1 anyone can enter without the knowledge of the person who is responsible
2 for guarding that area of responsibility? Let's ask that.
3 A. Well, you know how it is: While combat operations are being
4 carried out the area of responsibility is known. He wouldn't have entered
5 had combat operations been going on. This was a peaceful time, movement
6 was free. All he needed to do was to stop and say: All right. We're
7 coming in to do this and this.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Would you kindly slow down, please.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. You gave us that example with somebody's front yard and a bomb
11 being chucked into somebody's front yard.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Anybody could just walk by and you don't know who they are.
14 A. Yes. They just throw the bomb over the wall, and you say, well,
15 it's not the fault of the person who threw the bomb but of the person on
16 the other side of the wall who failed to catch it in time and throw it
18 Q. All right. Let's move on. It's up to the Court to judge both my
19 questions and your answers.
20 You, I mean in the hangar, or having come out in front of the
21 hangar, asked to your command to send some help and some security people.
22 A. Yes, this must be the umpteenth time I'm saying it.
23 Q. That was perfectly in keeping with your own powers. And when this
24 command was obeyed and when Vukic, as you say, and the soldiers came, you
25 returned to the command and you went to Mrksic's headquarters. Right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Fine. So you say you heard in Vukic's testimony or that jogged
3 your memory because Vukasinovic allegedly told him and that he then
4 returned to the command. Right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. We have heard evidence before this honourable Trial Chamber - I
7 will remind my friends, on page 8676 and on page 8686, dated the 11th of
8 May - that the two of them in fact returned together that evening with
9 Dragi Vukosavljevic and Vezmarovic. When all of them were withdrawing
10 pursuant to your order that Vukosavljevic then conveyed or on the order of
11 Karanfilov, we can discuss that. But we've heard testimony before this
12 Court, we've heard evidence that Vukic did not leave right away, as you
13 claim, after talking to Vukosavljevic [as interpreted] but he stayed there
14 until the end. That's what we've heard here. Would you leave that
15 possibility open?
16 A. I can't commit on either of these. Maybe he didn't stay for too
17 long, but then --
18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The witness trailed off and
19 we didn't hear him.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I read what I saw and what I said.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. Page 95, line 6, my
22 question: "After talking to Vukasinovic ..." and it says "Vukosavljevic."
23 I will now repeat, I mean this question, because your answer was not
25 Q. Hold on a minute, sir, Mr. Vojnovic. We have so many problems
1 with all these surnames that all sound alike. We've heard evidence before
2 this Trial Chamber that they returned together, when everybody was
3 withdrawing, including Vezmarovic's entire unit stayed all the way until
4 the end. Do you remember this as a possibility, that this is what they
5 told you or that this is what you heard later on at the command?
6 A. I can't commit on this 100 per cent. I know we did talk later on
7 and I heard the next day what Vezmarovic had told me, who had ordered him
8 to withdraw his troops from there. If he stayed there until the end with
9 him, Vukic or whoever you mentioned, Vukosavljevic --
10 Q. Yes, that's right.
11 A. Well, you see, I don't know if they were both with him.
12 Q. We've heard before this Court from a witness who is a first-hand
13 witness, if I may call him that, who says that he drove back together from
14 Ovcara with Vukic, with Dacic, with Vezmarovic, and the military police,
15 that they all came together once the hangar had been vacated.
16 A. So what's the problem? They may have gone together for all I
18 Q. Well, there is an enormous problem, but that is up to some other
19 people to judge. My position is Vukic did not exchange a single word with
20 Vukasinovic. My position is Vukasinovic spent a very brief time outside
21 the hangar and then left. That is my position. That is why I have
22 confronted you with evidence that we heard in this courtroom that Vukic
23 stayed until the end, that he stayed on until the end. That's what I'm
24 telling you. What do you have to say about that?
25 A. I'm telling you that I saw Vukasinovic there. I'm telling you
1 that Vukic spoke to him, that he was given an assignment, and what
2 Vukasinovic responded to him. As for how long Vukasinovic stayed there,
3 that is not something I can say.
4 Q. But about Vukic addressing him and what Vukasinovic responded to
5 Vukic, this wasn't something you actually saw because you had left
6 already. You heard this from Vukic later on. Right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Vukic told you that he had left immediately, that he had left the
9 hangar immediately. You have been saying this for a couple of days here,
10 haven't you?
11 A. Yes, yes.
12 Q. And now I'm telling you that we've heard evidence -- there was a
13 witness - I'm not naming that witness but the Court knows who this witness
14 is - who claims this is not true, that Vukic stayed on until the end. And
15 not a single word about Vukasinovic. Not a single word. All I'm asking
16 you is: Is it possible that Vukic stayed on until the end?
17 A. I really can't say. I read his statement and that's what I said
19 Q. So you read his statement. You believed his statement in its
20 entirety. It is based on this, that you are telling us that this is what
21 happened because this is something you read in the papers. Right?
22 A. I read this in the papers. I talked to Vukosavljevic, and he
23 confirmed that Vukic had been there with him. As to when they returned, I
24 don't know.
25 Q. Well, I don't think there will be any objections from Mr. Moore as
1 far as this is concerned: Vukosavljevic has claimed before this Court
2 that they returned together late that evening.
3 A. That's what I'm telling you: I don't know when it was that they
5 Q. We have an entry into the log. It says about 2230 hours, but
6 we'll discuss that some other time.
7 I'll move on to my next set of questions. That's why I'm checking
8 the time.
9 Mr. Moore asked you on day one whether on that particular evening
10 - and I'm talking about the 20th of November - you spoke to Vezmarovic or
11 Vukosavljevic. On page 8853, the 15th of May this year, you answered the
12 question in the following way:
13 "Q. [In English] Did you that evening speak either to Vezmarovic
14 or Vukosavljevic about what had happened at Ovcara after you had left?"
15 [Interpretation] Your answer -- hold on a minute, please, sir.
16 I'll read the answer out to you to jog your memory.
17 [In English] "I think that we spoke briefly. Vezmarovic informed
18 me that he had already got the units ready to move, had them all packed,
19 and that Major Karanfilov came and told him that Territorial Defence --
20 actually, the prisoners should be handed over to the jurisdiction of the
21 Territorial Defence, in view of the fact that some government -- I guess
22 the government of Krajina was informed ..." et cetera, et cetera, et
24 [Interpretation] My question to you now -- this was your answer to
25 Mr. Moore. Do you remember -- please don't try to tell us what other
1 people told you. Do you remember that evening -- first I'll ask you about
2 Vezmarovic. Upon your return, did you meet Captain Vezmarovic, the
3 commander of the military police company?
4 A. I think he reported that he had been ordered to go back from
5 Ovcara, that Karanfilov had ordered him this.
6 Q. One thing at a time, please. One thing at a time. Do you
7 remember talking to him, you, in person?
8 A. Well, like I say, I think - I think - that he reported to me.
9 Q. Very well. On that occasion, did he tell you that he had managed
10 to get everything under control and that there were now no problems at
11 Ovcara, as he was about to drive back?
12 A. I don't remember.
13 Q. But you do claim that he told you about Karanfilov. Did you check
14 who had authorised Karanfilov to be there in the first place? Did you ask
15 him that?
16 A. No, I didn't.
17 Q. What about the next day, the meeting the next day, with your
18 officers at your superior command? Did you tell them that Vezmarovic was
19 sent back pursuant to orders by Captain Karanfilov, although you said
21 A. Perhaps major first class, I don't know.
22 Q. I'm asking you if you told your superior officers about what you
23 were allegedly told by Vezmarovic.
24 A. I'm sure the brigade officers were familiarised with this, were
25 informed about this, the next day. We heard about what had occurred.
1 Q. You're not listening to me. We may be getting a little tired
2 here. Not about the events. You told us about informing them about what
3 people had been saying, what you had heard, but did you actually inform
4 these officers about the fact that Vezmarovic had told you that he had
5 been told by Captain Karanfilov to go? That's what I'm asking you.
6 A. It's a detail that I don't remember, whether I in fact said that
7 or not.
8 Q. This leads me to conclude that information was exchanged between
9 Vezmarovic and Vojnovic, just the two of you, no entry in the log-book.
10 No other officer knew at the time about the fact that Karanfilov was the
11 person who had told Vezmarovic to leave. He told you and no one else.
12 This did not spread any further. Is that right? Is that right?
13 MR. MOORE: How can this witness answer that question, with the
14 utmost respect?
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'll try to rephrase; no problem.
16 Q. Did you hear from any other officer from your unit on that day
17 this same piece of information that had been conveyed to you by Vezmarovic
18 allegedly, that Karanfilov had given him orders to withdraw?
19 A. I think I heard that from Dragi Vukosavljevic as well.
20 Q. Well, you see, Dragi Vukosavljevic testified here that he heard
21 about this for the very first time in 2003. Again, did you hear the same
22 thing from any of the other officers or is it your submission that you
23 only heard this from Dragi Vukosavljevic?
24 A. As I've already pointed out, I heard this from Captain Vezmarovic.
25 I think if you'll look at this in terms of the chain of command, because
1 the military police is a technical body, and Vezmarovic was cooperating
2 very successfully with the security officers, I think he must have been
3 familiar, but there may have been another officer who told me about this,
5 Q. What about that evening or over the next days? Did Vezmarovic
6 inform you, too, about the fact that Dragi Vukosavljevic had conveyed to
7 him your order to withdraw from Ovcara? Did Vezmarovic confirm that as
9 A. I think he did.
10 Q. You said a number of times that you were in touch with Vezmarovic
11 and that you followed his testimony. We heard him in this very courtroom
12 a couple of days ago. He did not confirm before this Trial Chamber, he
13 could not remember, that he talked to you at all on the evening of the
14 20th. Is it possible that you two did not, in fact, talk that evening?
15 A. I cannot say for certain, but I think we not only talked but he
16 reported to me when he came, saying that he had left the Ovcara sector and
17 that the prisoners had been surrendered to the TO men.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we go into private session for a
19 second, please?
20 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Private.
21 [Private session]
11 Page 9126 redacted. Private session.
9 [Open session]
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. We're going back to what I read later, what you told Moore on page
12 8853 regarding Vezmarovic. You said:
13 [In English] "Vezmarovic had already got units ready to move, had
14 them all packed, and that Karanfilov came."
15 [Interpretation] Did I understand you correctly that you stated
16 that Vezmarovic was ready to move when Karanfilov arrived? Did I read
17 your statement correctly?
18 A. I don't know how Vezmarovic interpreted that. There was nothing
19 much for him to get ready. He had two Pinzgauers with soldiers and
20 weapons. He didn't have any other equipment.
21 Q. You said that two days ago.
22 A. That's what it means, he was getting ready to go.
23 Q. When Karanfilov arrived?
24 A. When Karanfilov told him.
25 Q. Why was he getting ready to move when he was supposed to be there
1 for security?
2 A. He didn't get ready until Karanfilov told him.
3 Q. But two days ago you said something slightly different.
4 A. Well, it could be, but I don't know.
5 Q. Should I tell you why, my opinion?
6 A. Yes, go ahead.
7 Q. I assert that Dragi Vukosavljevic conveyed to him the order to
8 move out on the orders of Dragi Vukosavljevic. Dragi Vukosavljevic told
9 us that.
10 A. Dragi was sent from the OG South command post to convey the order,
11 and in the meantime Karanfilov arrived, so they kind of overlapped.
12 Q. Very well. You do not rule out the possibility that Vezmarovic
13 was told to move out by the chief of security of the 80th Motorised
14 Brigade, Dragi Vukosavljevic. You cannot rule that out.
15 A. No, I am not ruling it out, but publicly Karanfilov told him in
16 front of everyone why he was pulling out.
17 MR. MOORE: Again, I object to the question because the way it was
18 phrased and an inaccurate record of what was said in evidence. Now, may I
19 just find it for one moment.
20 "I assert that Dragi Vukosavljevic conveyed to him the order to
21 move out on the orders of Dragi Vukosavljevic." This is a question.
22 "Dragi Vukosavljevic told us that."
23 That was not what he told us. The sequence is wrong.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I will find the reference during the
25 break from my cross-examination when Dragi Vukosavljevic said that it's
1 possible that he conveyed the information to Vezmarovic. I'm sure that
2 Dragi Vukosavljevic provided that answer in this courtroom. But let's do
3 it like this:
4 Q. Sir, you assert that you heard that Karanfilov said that in front
5 of everyone.
6 A. Publicly.
7 Q. Who did you hear it from?
8 A. From Vezmarovic.
9 Q. When did he tell you that, or did you hear that in his testimony?
10 A. No, no, not in his testimony. That's not when I heard it.
11 Q. Did he tell you later in your conversations or did he tell you
12 that that evening when he came?
13 A. I think he told me that evening, possibly that evening or the next
14 day when we talked about it, in any case, that he conveyed to him what it
15 was that Karanfilov told him there. Perhaps Dragi also told him that, but
16 I don't know whether it was done in the same way.
17 Q. You mean you don't know in what way, but perhaps he told him that
19 A. I think so.
20 Q. Very well. Could you tell me one thing, please. We've heard
21 testimony here that in your brigade there was one chief of security and I
22 think six desk officers, I think six security desk officers. Do you know
23 if this is so? Do you know that situation? How many of them were there?
24 A. They were in battalions, the security desk officers, and Dragi was
25 the security chief in the brigade. I don't know how many of them there
1 were, I don't know if all the posts were filled, but in any case the desk
2 officers were in the battalions.
3 Q. Could a security desk officer issue a brigade in a battalion or a
5 A. According to the expert line, he cooperated with them and he
6 coordinated their work.
7 Q. That is correct. He cooperated and coordinated their work. He
8 did not command. Is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we make the break
11 now? I would like to just go over my questions, and I hope to finish
13 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
14 We will resume at a quarter past 3.00.
15 --- Recess taken at 2.56 p.m.
16 --- On resuming at 3.18 p.m.
17 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Mr. Lukic.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I looked at the transcript, and I
19 would like to agree with Mr. Moore that it was possible that Witness Dragi
20 Vukosavljevic said it was possible that he conveyed that information.
21 Q. Now, Mr. Vojnovic, we are going to move. I asked you in relation
22 to the information from Vezmarovic. Moore asked you about Vezmarovic and
23 Vukosavljevic. I'm going to ask you a couple of questions about the
24 informing of Dragi Vukosavljevic in relation to you in relation to what
25 you asked him to do, and you said how you sent him to Ovcara after that
1 meeting in the OG South command. And now, practically, you asked
2 Vukosavljevic to carry out a task, to inform Vezmarovic that the unit is
3 supposed to come back. Do you recall whether Dragi Vukosavljevic reported
4 to you that the assignment was carried out and that the military police
5 company was withdrawn in the spirit of your order?
6 A. I said that yesterday, so perhaps we can take whatever I said
7 yesterday so that I don't have to repeat myself. I don't know if the
8 Trial Chamber can do that. I have nothing else to say about the events
9 regarding OG South and the whole operation than what I said yesterday.
10 Q. Well, I understand you're tired. Your time here is almost over,
11 but I just asked you one thing, whether Dragi Vukosavljevic that evening,
12 on the 20th, and I'm speaking about November 1991, or the next morning, do
13 you remember that he told you that Vezmarovic -- that the military police
14 of Captain Vezmarovic came and that they returned in the spirit of your
15 order? This is what I'm asking you. Do you remember that? Yes or no.
16 Let's go on.
17 A. I really couldn't say one thing or the other right now.
18 Q. And do you remember whether you asked your chief of security at
19 all if he informed Vezmarovic that he needed to withdraw from Ovcara?
20 A. I think that he was given an assignment and he carried that
21 assignment out.
22 Q. And did he inform you about it later?
23 A. I think that he did inform me about that.
24 Q. Thank you. To convey your order that they should withdraw?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Thank you. And now, let's continue. I asked you in the beginning
2 and then we looked at that operations diary of your brigade and that
3 section 4. You said the person who received and who sent out the
4 information. We all know - and we don't need to look at the diary again -
5 that it says in the diary that information at 2230 hours, they were
6 withdrawn. In section 4 it states Major Jankovic. I think that Mr. --
7 Just one moment, please.
8 I see that I made a mistake. It states Premovic. In that section
9 it says Premovic. That is, as you said, this director of some enterprise
10 who was just trained but he was an officer, he was provisionally trained.
11 Who could have given that information to him so that he could have entered
12 it into the diary?
13 A. First of all, Vezmarovic, when he came to the command post in
14 Negoslavci, did not immediately go. He came before the time that is
15 stated there.
16 Q. That's what is stated there.
17 A. He brought in the weapons, the equipment - this is a couple of
18 houses away from the command - then he told them to go to the command. I
19 believe that he probably came to inform them. I don't know whether this
20 was Premovic or whoever making the entries, he asked him to enter that
21 particular piece of information, so Vezmarovic actually came to the
22 command before, to his post.
23 Q. So you assume that it was Vezmarovic who informed me about that?
24 A. Well, I assume it was one of those two.
25 Q. Or Dragi Vukosavljevic.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Very well. I asked you before about the security desk officers in
3 your brigade. There was the chief and there were these who were there at
4 the units. This is something that Vukosavljevic said, too, and you said
5 that along the expert lines they could have managed the units but they
6 could not have issued orders. You said that earlier.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Does that principle generally apply for all the JNA brigades?
9 Does it apply for the Guards Brigade as a rule?
10 A. Yes, it does. Generally the security organ works according to its
11 rules of service for the security service, and the principle is the same
13 Q. Very well. Thank you. Now I'm going to move to another topic.
14 You were shown a document relating to the clearing of terrain and the
15 removal of bodies. This is Exhibit 400. You said how the -- the corpses
16 were taken away. Do you recall when you were in the town command, whether
17 there were any other corpses that were buried? Was it a period of
18 cleaning the terrain that lasted for a while during your stay there?
19 A. As far as I know, all the bodies that were found in the streets of
20 Vukovar or in any of the buildings were taken across to the area
21 around the brick factory. They were studied there by our forensics
22 expert, Stankovic. As for organising the burials, the person put in
23 charge of this was Colonel Basic, on behalf of the 1st Military District.
24 I don't know his first name.
25 Q. Do you by any chance remember that next to the Dubrava forest
1 there was a graveyard? Do you remember that?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Very well then.
4 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Mr. Lukic, the number of the exhibit does
5 not seem to be correct. It seems to be a map, Exhibit 400.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right. This is a document
7 tendered by Mr. Moore. There is a reference there to 400 bodies, but that
8 is not the exhibit number. But that is of no consequence right now. This
9 is the document that talks about the operation to clear the terrain, and
10 the witness has discussed that.
11 Q. [Interpretation] You say that you found out about what had
12 occurred at Ovcara over the following days from the local people in
13 Negoslavci and you informed your own superiors at this meeting that was
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please go briefly into private
16 session -- or rather, I'll try to phrase my question in the following
18 Q. Some of the officers -- some of your officers were at Ovcara, too,
19 right? Vezmarovic was there, Vukosavljevic, Vukic, Dacic, Novkovic, and
20 some others, too. These officers that we have been mentioning for a
21 couple of days now as having been at Ovcara, did they attend this meeting
22 at the brigade command where you informed everybody about what had
23 occurred at Ovcara?
24 A. I'm not sure that all of them were there. I'm sure that Novkovic
25 did not attend. He was not attached to the brigade command. And I don't
1 know about the others. Some people had information, some people didn't,
2 and this was an official thing for people to learn what had happened and
3 not to go on about that.
4 Q. So the conclusion was that this news should not be spread. Right?
5 A. People made their own erroneous conclusions, sometimes inaccurate
6 ones, or arbitrary ones. And this was done in a bid to keep this sort of
7 thing from being discussed, especially with the locals in Negoslavci.
8 Q. At this meeting did any of those officers who had sure and direct
9 knowledge of the facts of what had happened at this meeting say what they
10 knew about the facts?
11 A. I don't know if they said anything, but they probably talked among
12 themselves about what had happened.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please briefly go into private
15 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Private, please.
16 [Private session]
11 [Open session]
12 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. I asked you about Vukasinovic - I'm about to wrap this up. Can
15 you remember where it was that you met Ljubisa Vukasinovic?
16 A. I think I met him at the command post of OG South. We weren't
17 personally introduced. I remember seeing him there. I remember meeting
18 him there for the very first time.
19 Q. Prior to your meeting inside the hangar at Ovcara, how many times
20 had you seen him prior to that, can you remember that?
21 A. I don't think I can. We used to go there every evening and I
22 really can't say.
23 Q. But you remember him as being at the operations group meetings,
24 don't you?
25 A. No, not specifically. He never took the floor or anything. Not
1 really. There were some people who spoke at these meetings, but I never
2 noticed him speaking.
3 Q. But he regularly attended meetings at the command of OG South.
5 A. I can't really say whether he came regularly or not.
6 Q. You remember him from those meetings at the command of OG South
7 and that is why you actually recognised him at Ovcara. Right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. I must tell you this, Mr. Vojnovic, Ljubisa Vukasinovic, in terms
10 of his position, was not a member of OG South. He never attended a single
11 meeting at the command post of OG South. Not a single meeting. What
12 would have to say about that, if anything?
13 A. Then I must have met him elsewhere. Sometimes staff members came
14 to the command post of OG South. I did find officers there who were not
15 members but who were staff members.
16 Q. How many times did you see him and what sort of meetings were
18 A. I really can't say how many times or what those meetings were.
19 Q. You say he had the rank of major.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What sort of uniform was he wearing? Was it an M-77? You did see
22 him many times, didn't you?
23 A. Well, I don't know. Just before his departure for Belgrade, the
24 Guards Brigade were given camouflage uniforms M-something or other. I
25 forget. Was he wearing one of those or not? We didn't have those.
1 Q. Let me conclude this. You saw him many times but you don't
2 remember his uniform.
3 A. That's right.
4 [Defence counsel confer]
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Just a couple of questions to wrap this up. Sir, does the brigade
7 commander have sole command over all units from the composition of his
9 A. Yes, for as long as these units are within the composition of his
10 brigade, that is definitely the case.
11 Q. Fair enough. Do you agree with me that the only thing this word
12 can possibly mean is that only the commander has the power to issue orders
13 to subordinate units?
14 A. Yes, or someone else with previous authorisation from the
16 Q. Only the commander can provide this sort of authorisation to other
17 officers from his own command to exercise command over any of the units
18 from within the composition of his unit.
19 A. That's right.
20 Q. Thank you very much.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have no
22 further questions. I would also like to take this opportunity to thank
23 Mr. Vojnovic for providing all the answers.
24 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
25 Mr. Moore.
1 MR. MOORE: May I have the lectern, please? Mr. Lukic has got it,
2 and I'll try not to disgrace it.
3 Re-examination by Mr. Moore:
4 Q. I have only about 20 minutes of questions. Will you be able to
5 survive, do you think, or would you like a break?
6 A. Let's give it a go, yes.
7 Q. You've been asked many, many questions about your position as
8 being in charge or the commander of the 80th Motorised Brigade, and you
9 have said that a superior command had entered your zone of responsibility.
10 And what you've also said is that you could not control that area because
11 there were members of a superior command who had, as I say, entered that
12 zone of responsibility. Now, can you, in layman's language, please
13 explain what that actually means and why you were not able to become
14 involved. Are you able to do that?
15 A. Well, each command -- well, each brigade command is assigned an
16 area of responsibility. This is usually assigned by the superior command.
17 It is assigned in order for everyone to know who is responsible within
18 that -- within that area, if there are any combat operations underway, or
19 units are involved. This area of responsibility must not be entered by
20 anyone else without the unit in charge knowing about that. The superior
21 command can. There is no way we can stop that because they were the ones
22 who assigned the area to us in the first place. Whoever enters that area
23 must --
24 Q. Slowly, please.
25 A. Whoever enters an area of responsibility unbeknown to the
1 commander in charge of the area must assume responsibility for everything
2 that occurs in that area. We were not able to exercise effective control
3 over that section of the area, given the fact that certain elements had
4 entered the zone led by an officer from our superior command. Therefore,
5 we could not be held responsible for anything that occurred within that
6 sector where, in this particular example, this unit happened to be.
7 Q. So when we talk about Vukasinovic coming in, as you believed him
8 to be, in charge of the prisoners from the hospital, who was his superior?
9 A. Major Sljivancanin; that was my reading of the situation. He was
10 from Operations Group South, from my superior command.
11 Q. And what position did Mrksic hold within that equation?
12 A. Mrksic was the commander of OG South.
13 Q. And so when you were talking about members of a superior command
14 who had entered the zone of responsibility, your responsibility initially,
15 who was the superior commander?
16 A. If he entered my area or zone of responsibility, Vukasinovic
17 specifically in this case, then that would be his superiors; that is, the
18 OG South command.
19 Q. Thank you very much. Now, let us deal with one area that you were
20 cross-examined on by Mr. Borovic. Would you be kind enough, please, to go
21 to your witness statement that you compiled for OTP, and it is paragraph
22 42 which was only partially read. I'd like to deal with it all, please.
23 Do you have a hard copy there or is it on soft copy? Well, perhaps if I
24 read it, that -- we can move on quicker that way. It's paragraph 42,
1 Now, I'm going to read it out and the interpreters have got a copy
2 and you can follow it. It reads as follows: "Considering my experience
3 as JNA commander and specifically my experience from Vukovar, I would not
4 have handed over the evacuees/prisoners to anyone but the legitimate
5 government. I certainly would not have handed over them over in a
6 situation like that. If I had not seen the officers of the 1st Guards
7 Motorised Brigade in the hangar, I would have assumed responsibility for
8 the situation. I would have inquired to establish why the
9 prisoners/evacuees had been taken there. I would have called for buses
10 and ordered that they be taken to Sremska Mitrovica because it would have
11 been more convenient for us if they had been in a place where we could
12 provide them with accommodation and food. If Mrksic had ordered me to
13 hand over the evacuees to the local Serb TO, I would have obeyed the order
14 on the condition that the evacuees were given no trouble. However, if I
15 had been there alone as the most senior officer, I would have seen to it
16 that the evacuees were taken to a safe place and would have sent the TO
17 away (I would have barred their presence)."
18 I've asked you questions about the superior command, I hope in
19 theory and principle in a way that is intelligible. Can I direct your
20 attention, please, to the sentence: "I certainly would not have handed
21 them over in a situation like that," and then the following: "If I had
22 not seen the officers of the 1st Guards Motorised Brigade in the hangar, I
23 would have assumed responsibility for the situation."
24 What was the significance in the command structure of the 1st
25 Guards Motorised Brigade -- the officers of the 1st Guards Motorised
1 Brigade being at the hangar? Why did that influence your decision not to
3 A. I made the decision to not do anything at the time because I saw a
4 major, an officer, a security officer, there inside the hangar. I assumed
5 that he had probably been given the assignment because those prisoners did
6 not just come there of their own accord.
7 Q. Can we use a little more precise language, please. You are
8 referring -- or I am referring to the passage that you saw -- you said:
9 "If I had not seen the officers of the 1st Guards Motorised Brigade in
10 the hangar ..."
11 What is the significance of the 1st Guards Motorised Brigade
12 officers in the hangar in relation to your decision? Who were they
13 attached to? Who was their commander?
14 MR. BOROVIC: Objection.
15 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Mr. Borovic.
16 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] We are talking about a single
17 officer there. My learned friend Mr. Moore keeps saying "officers" of the
18 1st Guards Motorised Brigade. Nor did the witness actually phrase it in
19 this way.
20 MR. MOORE: I am just reading from the witness statement.
21 Q. Now, do you understand the question?
22 A. Yes. To me, the absence of Major Vukasinovic inside the hangar
23 was, I mean, an assurance that he had an assignment and that he would make
24 sure to carry it out and that nothing might possibly befall the prisoners
25 since he was actually there.
1 Q. We have, I believe, an error in the translation on 118:18;
2 "absence" as opposed to "presence." Is that right or not? It has a
3 fairly important bearing. Witness, I'll ask the question again. The --
4 sometimes we have -- can you please listen?
5 MR. MOORE: Mr. --
6 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.
7 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Mr. Vasic.
8 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I can confirm to my learned friend
9 that this is, indeed, an error. It reads "absence"; it should read
10 "presence." As for the rest, I believe that the witness has said
11 everything himself.
12 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much for playing with a straight bat.
13 Q. May I just deal with one other aspect of that paragraph.
14 Mr. Vojnovic, could you just listen to the question, please.
15 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Mr. Vojnovic? Mr. Vojnovic, can you --
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I'm listening.
17 MR. MOORE:
18 Q. It just helps if you say "yes," because we're not sure if the
19 translation gets through or not.
20 A. Yes, yes, I'm listening to you..
21 Q. It's as if I'm talking to myself again.
22 Can I ask you, please, to look at paragraph 42. I want to deal
23 with the sentence: "If Mrksic --" starting: "If Mrksic had ordered me to
24 hand over the evacuees to the local Serbian TOs, I would have obeyed the
25 order on the condition the evacuees were given no trouble."
1 Do you see that?
2 A. Yes, yes.
3 Q. Now, can you just put that witness statement down for a moment,
4 please. Thank you very much. So the question that I want to ask you is
5 this: If Mrksic had ordered you to hand over the evacuees to the local
6 Serb TOs, you would have obeyed the order on the condition that the
7 evacuees were given no trouble. What do you mean by that, please?
8 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have an objection.
9 During the examination-in-chief and cross-examination, the witness never
10 said that Colonel Mrksic had, in fact, issued an order like that.
11 Therefore, I think this question, too, might confuse the witness. It is a
12 hypothetical situation that we are discussing here. The witness never
13 said that Colonel Mrksic had, in fact, issued an order for this unit to
14 withdraw and to handover to the other unit. My learned friend, I think,
15 is in a position himself to confirm that.
16 MR. MOORE: I don't, respectfully, agree with my learned friend,
17 but I will move off the topic and deal with it another way, if I may.
18 Q. Mr. Vojnovic, can you just set that statement aside for a moment.
19 Could you just set it to the side. Thank you very much indeed.
20 You're being asked various questions about why is it you did not
21 mention the name of Mrksic in what I will call the military
22 investigations/inquiries in 1998. Now, do you remember those questions
23 being posed to you?
24 A. I do. The investigation was led by a security officer, a colonel
25 at the time. I can't remember his name, but it's probably in the document
1 somewhere. This was the first document ever, and I stated to him and to
2 everybody else that I had informed Colonel Mrksic of what I had seen at
3 Ovcara, but this was not recorded. I don't know what the reason was for
4 this omission. I did not read the record myself right there, but the same
5 thing applied as applies to most interviews: The witness has read the
6 statement and hereby confirms its authenticity by signing the statement.
7 I only ascertained that at a later stage. Later on, every time I
8 testified or gave evidence, I established this and I asked that this be
9 recorded. The same thing applies to when I testified before Colonel
10 Gojovic, the then-president of the military court. And we were very close
11 to yet another omission of this fact, actually. We nearly omitted again
12 the fact that I had informed my superior officer, but I was adamant that
13 this should be recorded. And then Colonel Gojovic got it down again. It
14 wasn't my phrasing, it wasn't quite the way I had told him. And then this
15 problem dragged on and on, and every time I gave a statement, the same
16 thing happened.
17 Q. I would like, if possible, please, for you to be shown the
18 transcript of the military court in Belgrade. It's the transcript dated
19 the 28th of December, and the -- it should be 02188268 to 8272.
20 Now, what I want to do is -- I don't know if there's an English
21 version that can be shown to assist all parties, but I want to try and
22 deal with it in general terms really to deal with the structure of the
23 statement rather than the content of the statement. Now, have you got
24 that in front of you, Mr. Vojnovic?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. 28th of December, 1998.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. I will try and deal with it in the following way: Really, there
4 is an introduction. It shows investigating Judge Lieutenant-Colonel
5 Radomir Gojovic, then there's various articles that relate to -- that
6 relate to rights, and then there's a topic saying general questions. And
7 you'll give a basic account of what happened in very general -- in a very,
8 very general way. No question, no answer, more in reported speech. Do
9 you see that? Now, I want you to go towards the end of that particular
10 interview procedure. In the English it should be almost the second-last
11 page, the penultimate page, and it should be -- I think it needs to come
12 back one. It should say: "Upon a question, a question, of the
13 investigative judge the witness stated the following ..."
14 That's bottom right-hand corner of the English translation 506.
15 Now, have you got that? There's: "Upon a question of the investigating
16 judge, the witness stated the following ..." Have you got that?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, I want to go below that one paragraph that deals with a
19 question, and then there are two entries. One should be starting: "At
20 the end ..."
21 Do you see that? It might be the next page in the B/C/S. It
22 should read: "At the end I would like to state that none of the
23 units ..." Have you got that?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Thank you. So that's the first paragraph I want to deal with, and
1 then the second relates to a sentence starting: "When I came back to my
2 command post I met Colonel Mrksic ..." Do you see that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And it is actually the last paragraph. Can we just clarify, is
5 this the reference to Mrksic that you insisted on it being placed in the
7 A. Well, yes, that is the one. Still, it was not recorded the way it
8 had been told by me.
9 Q. Well, thank you very much. We'll just leave that topic, if we
10 may. May I deal then, please, with the investigation or otherwise of what
11 happened at Ovcara. So can you please just put your mind to the period
12 after Ovcara. Now, we know clearly that a large number of people were
13 murdered in Ovcara. While you were in Vukovar, were you ever officially
14 spoken to by the military police -- officially spoken to by the military
15 police and a statement taken or inquiry made about what happened?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Thank you. When you left Vukovar, when was the first time you
18 were actually ever officially spoken to or any inquiry made about this
19 atrocity at Ovcara?
20 A. The first time, I think, was when the security service called me,
21 and that was also when I gave my first statement.
22 Q. And what year was that?
23 A. 1998.
24 Q. You have told us that you actually spoke to Lieutenant-Colonel
25 Panic. Spoke to. Now, is that right or not?
1 A. Yes, that's right.
2 Q. And when was it you actually met and spoke to Lieutenant-Colonel
4 A. I met Lieutenant-Colonel Panic for the first time at the military
5 court when we both gave evidence. I didn't know that he would be there,
6 and he didn't know that I would be there. Panic probably testified before
7 I came along. I saw him leave. I realised that he had given evidence.
8 On our way back -- or rather, he drove me back in his own car. He was
9 still in active service, and he told me about those events. And that was
10 the first time I heard -- I first heard from him that he had been there,
11 too, and the first time I heard about a decision being taken by some
12 government that the prisoners from the hospital should be handed over to
13 the TO, to my great surprise.
14 Q. And in that conversation, did Lieutenant-Colonel Panic indicate to
15 you whether he had spoken to Colonel Mrksic about the transfer of
17 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.
18 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Mr. Vasic.
19 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Objection. I do believe that this
20 subject, whether Colonel Mrksic talked to Lieutenant-Colonel Panic, was
21 never raised in the Defence's cross-examination of this witness. I
22 believe my learned friend, therefore, should not be allowed to re-examine
23 on this topic.
24 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: I think that's a fair comment, Mr. Moore.
25 MR. MOORE: I would respectfully submit it is not a fair
1 submission to make. There has been evidence about whether Panic was
2 spoken to. There was a reference about the conversation with Panic. I
3 objected at the time because there had been an objection by the Defence
4 that keep, as it were, that he should keep his mind, and his answers
5 specifically, on what he knew. And I -- because he was referring to the
6 Panic conversation. And I submitted to Your Honour that it did not mean
7 that it was inadmissible, that it went to weight. And in my submission,
8 that topic has been opened by the Defence in relation to a conversation
9 with Panic. So the topic has been raised, and I think it was raised, I
10 think actually on two occasions. The witness -- the witness, I seem to
11 remember, mentioned it on one occasion and, indeed as I say, I also
12 mentioned it in objection to the cross-examination.
13 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Okay. Please proceed, Mr. Moore.
14 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.
15 Q. Can you please assist us, when you were speaking to Panic in the
16 car, did he ever inform you whether he had told or had a conversation with
17 Mrksic about the handover of prisoners?
18 A. Panic told me that he had been to a government meeting and that he
19 had heard there that the prisoners were to be handed over to the TO. When
20 he returned to his command post, he informed Colonel Mrksic that a
21 decision had been taken by them to have the prisoners handed over to the
22 TO and not to the JNA, whereupon Colonel Mrksic replied: Fine. If that's
23 what they decided, they may as well see what happens then. This was an
24 unequivocal reply to me by Panic, and I remember that clearly.
25 Q. Now, can I deal with Colonel Panic, because you also referred to
1 my learned friend Mr. Vasic that you had spoken to Mr. Vasic who is
2 Defence counsel for Mr. Mrksic. Have you been in contact or have they
3 been in contact -- perhaps I'll rephrase that. Have you spoken to the
4 Defence of Mr. Mrksic in relation to this case?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And how many times have you spoken to them?
7 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Mr. Vasic?
8 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you, Your Honour. I
9 must object. I think this was certainly not raised in cross-examination
10 or in chief, whether the witness actually talked to the Defence. I never
11 raised the issue. No one else did. I don't think this constitutes an
12 appropriate topic for re-examination. There is nothing to invoke.
13 Secondly, I never asked the witness about what Lieutenant-Colonel
14 Panic had told him. I never asked the question. I think this subject
15 matter is entirely outside the scope of any possible re-examination that
16 my learned friend may or may not have.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 MR. MOORE: I would submit that it is a relevant element. The
19 witness has said that there has been an attempt to avoid the name of
20 Mrksic being involved in any statements. I was going to ask the witness
21 whether in actual fact he had any conversation and whether, as far as he
22 understood it, there was an attempt to avoid the name of Mrksic when he
23 made the statement to the Defence.
24 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, what my learned friend
25 is trying to establish is no problem at all for me. Simple fact is I
1 believe this was never raised in chief or in cross-examination. What my
2 learned friend is invoking now about the statements made by Mr. Vojnovic,
3 statements given to these bodies, they were the subject of
4 cross-examination in a different way. But fair enough. We've heard the
5 witness. The witness says he tried to avoid mentioning the name in these
6 statements. However, the Defence's interviews or conversations with this
7 witness were never raised at any point in time during this witness's
8 testimony. Therefore, I do not believe that my learned friend is entitled
9 to ask these questions now.
10 MR. MOORE: Might I ask one question, and if the Court deems it
11 inappropriate, then I will move off to another subject.
12 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Well, I was going to allow the question,
13 Mr. Moore, because I believe it has not been raised in the
14 cross-examination but it has arisen in the cross-examination from an
15 answer of the witness. So for that reason I would allow the question, so
16 please proceed, Mr. Moore.
17 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.
18 Q. When you saw the Defence, who was the person who facilitated the
19 introduction with the Defence?
20 A. The person who facilitated the introduction was a retired colonel.
21 I believe his name was Mojsilovic. He worked at the General Staff. He
22 summoned me and I met Vasic in the General Staff building at Banjica.
23 That was when I told Mr. Vasic about everything that we are now discussing
24 here. He asked me to write a statement for him -- or rather, he typed up
25 a brief statement. I remember clearly, it was in a corridor. He did not
1 mention the name of my commander at the time, Colonel Mrksic. I then
2 asked him -- I was adamant that the name had to be in the statement, and
3 he said there was no need for that and that I should just let him get on
4 with it.
5 Q. Can I just ask you one question before we move off this topic.
6 Did Colonel -- Lieutenant-Colonel Panic, was he involved in the
7 introductions between yourself and Mr. Vasic?
8 A. Yes. That was the first meeting, in Backa Palanka. Mr. Vasic
9 came with Panic. They asked me to come; I did. We met at the Fontana
10 Hotel. We didn't talk long, but this was what we discussed.
11 Q. Thank you very much. I won't go into it any further.
12 MR. MOORE: Now, could I ask, please, for Exhibit 422. It should
13 be a document that is the 21st of November, dealing with the
14 resubordination of TO units, and I think it's at about 6.00 in the morning
15 but I can't be sure of that.
16 Q. Would you be kind enough to look at the screen, and hopefully
17 you'll be able to see it.
18 A. I see that.
19 Q. You have been asked questions about this -- this is the
20 frontispiece. I would like to go to the second page, please, and to the
21 persons who it was addressed to, because you were asked whether you
22 received this and you said you couldn't remember, but you didn't see the
23 second page. So, it's from Colonel Mrksic. It's to do with the
24 resubordination of TO units, and those are the individuals to whom it was
1 MR. MOORE: I see there's an objection.
2 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Mr. Vasic.
3 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour. I believe my
4 learned friend knows full well that this document was not sent by Colonel
5 Mrksic. He's had occasion to hear this from numerous witnesses. I think
6 that is beyond dispute. He did not sign or send this document. I think
7 this question is leading the witness astray.
8 MR. MOORE: Well, I'm not actually adducing it for that reason,
9 and if that's the case, my apologies. But he certainly has been asked
10 questions whether he received this document, and all I'm trying to
11 establish is he's not one of the targeted recipients and that it's a false
12 point. All right.
13 Q. So can we choose, please, the -- is -- are any of those addressees
15 A. No.
16 Q. Thank you very much.
17 MR. MOORE: Would Your Honour forgive me one moment while I just
18 search through my book.
19 Q. Yes. You've been asked many questions about previous statements,
20 court appearances, and accounts given. And the question is asked: How
21 can this Court rely on the accuracy of your testimony today when in actual
22 fact in previous occasions you have omitted facts and there are obvious
23 discrepancies? Why do you say that you are more accurate today than on
24 other days?
25 A. Because I obtained some information. I monitored -- or rather,
1 followed all the trials that took place in Belgrade. I followed all the
2 witnesses testifying in different situations and on different occasions.
3 Needless to say, it's been 15 years. One can't remember every single
4 detail. I may as well remember something to add tomorrow, something that
5 I can't for the life of me remember today, but that is just how it works.
6 Q. Thank you very much. You have been asked about the timetable of
7 the meeting which allegedly was between 5.00 and 6.00, which was cast in
8 stone by all accounts. Would you be kind enough -- or would somebody be
9 kind enough, please, to turn up a 65 ter document 573, and the number is
10 03271235 going through to 1236. Now, this is -- this is a daily combat
11 report and there's been reference to them. Now, can we go to the second
12 page, please, and perhaps the third or the end. Well -- no, that's fine.
13 Thank you.
14 Now, I want to just draw the Court's attention, if I may, to an
15 English reference and then I want to go back to the B/C/S because I can't
16 do both together, and it is at the very bottom and it relates to the
17 stamping, stamping for receipt, and the time is 6.55.
18 Now, can we please go to the B/C/S version. Now, this is this
19 same document. Combat reports, like everything else, are transmitted. Do
20 you know by what means they are transmitted? Is it electronic or by hand?
21 A. I think by hand. We did not work electronically there.
22 Q. Well, let's just see what is actually entered. What does the
23 first word show then, please?
24 A. I don't have that in front of me. I have page 2.
25 Q. Well, I've got the stamp on my screen. Have you not got a stamp
1 on your screen, which is enlarged?
2 A. Yes, yes. I see the stamp, yes.
3 Q. And do you see the box down below and we've got various times?
4 We've got 1855, 1720?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, what does the first time relate to? What is the word we've
7 got on the left-hand side? Can you assist us?
8 A. "Received." It's not perfectly legible, but "received" is what I
9 think it says.
10 Q. And what time is that?
11 A. 1855.
12 Q. So it certainly had to be sent before 1855. Can we look, then, at
13 the next word.
14 A. Yes. "Processed." This document was processed at 1920 hours.
15 Q. And then I think the next word is "submitted." Is that right?
16 A. Yes, yes, "submitted." 1930 hours to five past 8.00.
17 Q. Thank you very much. Could we look --
18 MR. MOORE: I don't need that document anymore. Could we look,
19 please --
20 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours. Your Honours, I think
21 it would only be fair, since my learned friend is dealing with this
22 document in this way: This document was raised in cross-examination, but
23 perhaps he should ask the witness what do these things mean? Who do the
24 codes mean? What do these words mean, "processed," "submitted,"
25 "received"? Who wrote these codes? Who sent this? Who received this?
1 Who processed this? Otherwise, we might just be left in the dark as to
2 the meaning of the entire box. I think it would be only fair to show the
3 witness and ask him if he knows.
4 MR. MOORE: I'd be happy to do that. Can we now go back so we see
5 the entirety of the document. Thank you very much.
6 Q. Now, this is a daily combat report. We've heard about it. And it
7 is sent to whom by Colonel Mrksic, do you know?
8 A. The 1st Military District.
9 Q. And when we see the box with all the titles, namely "received,"
10 "processed," "submitted," do you know the actual system for receiving the
11 combat report or not? If you don't know, we'll get evidence elsewhere
12 about it.
13 A. I think this is a document that was processed at the OG South
14 command, probably by the officer in charge of encryption or someone else.
15 That's when he received it, that's when he processed it, and that's when
16 he passed it on.
17 Q. Well, as I say, we'll leave that topic and we'll move on to
18 another and deal with it from perhaps another source. Can we just remove
19 that, please.
20 I have one final question and it is this: I go back to the night
21 of the 20th of November. As far as you were aware, or are aware, why did
22 Vezmarovic withdraw his troops from Ovcara?
23 A. Vezmarovic withdrew his troops from Ovcara because he had received
24 an order. The order was loud and clear, both from Vezmarovic, erů, that is,
25 both from, Vukosavljevic and, erů, Karanfilov. The troops were there, they
1 were left alone, and Vezmarovic withdrew. I realised, when I spoke to
2 Colonel Mrksic, that I had no business being there, that I was not needed
3 there. That was what I realised. I had not been given any assignment.
4 MR. MOORE: I have no further questions. Thank you very much.
5 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you, Mr. Moore.
6 Mr. Vojnovic, you'll be pleased to hear that this brings your
7 evidence to an end. You are now free to go.
8 We are going to adjourn for the day, and we will gather again
9 tomorrow morning at 9.30.
10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.23 p.m.,
11 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 18th day of
12 May, 2006, at 9.30 a.m.