Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9025

1 Wednesday, 17 May 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.31 a.m.

6 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Good morning. I'm afraid Judge Parker is

7 unable to sit today as well, but we are certain that he will be able to

8 join us tomorrow. So for today it will still be Judge Thelin and myself

9 conducting the hearing.

10 Good morning, Mr. Vojnovic. May I remind you of the affirmation

11 you took yesterday which is still applicable. Now we are going to

12 continue with the cross-examination.

13 Mr. Borovic.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

15 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

16 WITNESS: MILORAD VOJNOVIC [Resumed]

17 [Witness answered through interpreter]

18 Cross-examination by Mr. Borovic: [Continued]

19 Q. Just to finish what we began yesterday. If I were to tell you

20 that Captain Radic had to go into coordinated action with his unit with

21 two detachments of the Territorial Defence and with your 3rd Battalion,

22 would he be able to do something like that of his own accord or would

23 there have to be a decision on something like that?

24 A. He couldn't do it of his own accord. He couldn't choose who to go

25 into coordinated action with.

Page 9026

1 Q. But based on what could he do something like that?

2 A. On the basis of an order by the superior command.

3 Q. Thank you. You've already stated that you attended the daily

4 briefings at the command post of OG South in Negoslavci. Is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You said that at those meetings Mrksic was also present with his

7 staff. That's what you told the Tribunal investigators.

8 A. Yes, that is correct.

9 Q. Do you know who comprised this staff?

10 A. I think the staff comprised the Chief of Staff, some of the

11 operations organ, people in the staff, the security chief, the assistant,

12 and the most serious senior officers from the OG South command.

13 Q. Thank you. And is that the main place where the command of the

14 Vukovar operation was conducted from?

15 A. Yes, that is correct.

16 Q. On the critical day when you went for the regular briefing on the

17 20th of November, 1991, could you please list all the officers of yours

18 who remained at Ovcara at that time.

19 A. I think that those who were at Ovcara on that day, on the 20th,

20 other than me, were the following people: Vezmarovic -- I'm not

21 mentioning the name of the person who was in the Ovcara sector.

22 Q. You mean the local commander of Ovcara?

23 A. Yes, yes. Him. Then, later, Captain Vukic and Captain Dacic also

24 came. I don't know of any others.

25 Q. Thank you. Was Dragi Vukosavljevic there with some officers?

Page 9027

1 A. I think that he was there with Dacic and Vukic.

2 Q. Thank you. The military police company under the command of

3 Vezmarovic numbered about 30 soldiers. You said that to the Prosecution.

4 A. Yes, that was a platoon.

5 Q. Then on transcript page 8807, line 25, you said that a military

6 police company is comprised of a military police platoon and a traffic

7 police platoon.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. For the Prosecution, this is page 8827, line 25.

10 You said that the military police platoon numbered between 25 and

11 30 and the traffic police had two detachments, numbering from 15 to 16

12 soldiers. Is that correct? If we add that up, doesn't that come to about

13 40 soldiers?

14 A. Yes, that's about it.

15 Q. If we added the 16 soldiers who came with Vukic, does that mean

16 that then there were about 50 soldiers at a certain point together with

17 Vezmarovic's company?

18 A. No, the traffic platoon was not at Ovcara.

19 Q. How do you know that?

20 A. I know that the traffic police was not at Ovcara, the traffic

21 police detachment.

22 Q. How do you know that?

23 A. I never heard such information other than now from you that the

24 traffic platoon was at Ovcara.

25 Q. If I were to tell you that Vezmarovic said that when he came to

Page 9028

1 the command post he heard that his company of the military police was

2 engaged at Ovcara, that means that if the military police company was

3 engaged there, the traffic -- a platoon was engaged there as well.

4 A. No, he probably made a mistake. The traffic platoon was not

5 engaged there.

6 Q. How would you recognise members of the traffic platoon?

7 A. They had slightly different equipment. They had white sleeves and

8 they had the traffic bats, and they also had batons and handcuffs and so

9 on.

10 Q. The location of the Ovcara hangar as a location where the

11 prisoners would be detained, is that something that was chosen by

12 Vezmarovic together with you? I think we talked about that a little bit.

13 A. I was at that facility at Ovcara. I don't remember specifically,

14 but I know that this building was meant to be used in the event that there

15 were any prisoners of war, and it was supposed to be used for other

16 purposes, too.

17 Q. You said that as the commander of the 80th Motorised Brigade.

18 A. I don't know if I planned that or someone else allocated that

19 facility for that. But the facility was there, it was the only one, there

20 were no other buildings available.

21 Q. So you felt it was the most suitable building?

22 A. Yes, that is correct.

23 Q. That means that you allocated that as the future prison.

24 A. No, I can't really say that.

25 Q. Very well. Based on your statement, we see that when you came to

Page 9029

1 Ovcara you found Vezmarovic already there - is that correct? - with the

2 members of the military police company?

3 A. No, I think that Vezmarovic came later.

4 Q. We are going to establish that now slowly. You said there were a

5 lot of people there wearing white cross belts. Does that mean that these

6 were members of the military police company?

7 A. No, it doesn't mean that. Somebody could have gotten white cross

8 belts in some other way and could have worn it without being a member of

9 the military police. In any case, white belts are an indication of

10 membership of the military police. I don't know if any of the Territorial

11 Defence members had white belts.

12 Q. Your military police company commander said that when he came to

13 Ovcara, he, threw out all the military members and only his military

14 police company remained behind and they were wearing white cross belts.

15 So if you saw people with white cross belts in the hangar it is logical

16 that these would be members of the military police company who belonged to

17 your 80th Battalion.

18 A. I know that it was there.

19 Q. All right, very well. Thank you. Now, let's go back now to the

20 time when you were there, because several times you said you spent from 20

21 to 30 minutes there.

22 A. Yes, that is correct.

23 Q. You said that you stopped by at the hangar on your way from Sotin,

24 in your statement, and I think my colleague Vasic gave you that statement

25 and I can give it to you to look over.

Page 9030

1 A. No, that is correct; I stopped off at the hangar on my way from

2 Sotin.

3 Q. You said there in a statement you gave to the security organs of

4 the 12th of November --

5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the date and the

6 place.

7 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. You said that there were from 20 to 30 members of paramilitary

9 groups and Territorial Defence members at about 1200 hours you stopped off

10 at the hangar in Sotin.

11 A. Yes, probably that is what I stated, but I think that later I

12 confirmed that. I think there were more than the number quoted there.

13 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please provide the

14 Trial Chamber as well as the Prosecution with -- I thought that Mr. Vasic

15 left everything to the witness yesterday.

16 Q. You gave a statement to the military court on the 28th of

17 December, 1998. This is page 3, paragraph 2. The English version is page

18 3, paragraph 1. And there you also said that you arrived at 1700 hours

19 and that you saw a person there making lists. You also said that you

20 stayed there for about 20 minutes. There is another thing: You said that

21 you didn't notice members of any regular units there.

22 A. I'm sorry. I'm missing one of the lenses from my glasses, but

23 very well. I don't believe that Vezmarovic --

24 Q. No, you said that.

25 A. No, no, I want to go back to the first part of what you said, that

Page 9031

1 Vezmarovic threw out all the military personnel from the hangar, because

2 he could not have thrown out all the TO members from the hangar, that's

3 for sure. Maybe some of us or maybe he chased out some other people, but

4 these people he could not have chased out of the hangar. I'm thinking of

5 the TO members.

6 Q. Well, then, let's finish up what you are commenting on yourself.

7 So Vezmarovic said not only that he threw out members of the units

8 belonging to the local commander of Ovcara, but he also threw out all the

9 members of the Territorial Defence, and he also stated that at the time

10 there were no officers or soldiers from the Guards Motorised Brigade at

11 that location. What would your comment be now, because that was his

12 statement?

13 A. All I can say is that Major Vukasinovic was at the hangar --

14 Q. We have already heard that.

15 A. -- and around him were a group of persons wearing regular military

16 uniforms. I don't know if these were senior officers or soldiers. I

17 don't know. In any case, they were not our soldiers, and they were around

18 him all the time.

19 Q. Very well. What do you say about your statement that you provided

20 to the security organs - that I read for you earlier - from the 12th of

21 November, 1998, page 1, where you say: "I did not notice members of any

22 regular units." You do not mention Vukasinovic there or those other

23 soldiers. Vezmarovic doesn't mention them either.

24 A. Well, Vukasinovic does not constitute a unit.

25 Q. Very well. Thank you. My colleagues asked you a little bit more

Page 9032

1 about that so I'm not going to go into that so much. Were you at Ovcara

2 that day at 1400 hours in passing and then after that at 1700 hours. Is

3 that correct?

4 A. Yes, that's correct.

5 Q. Thank you. You said that you wanted to visit your units in Sotin

6 and then after that you wanted to visit your unit in Ovcara. Is that

7 correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Thank you. If you said that you wanted to see your commander and

10 see your unit -- so isn't then your unit part of the 80th Motorised

11 Brigade? You were saying something else yesterday.

12 A. No, it's not part of the 80th Brigade, but he is my officer who is

13 temporarily out of that brigade. But I knew that in a few days he would

14 come back to the brigade, so I couldn't just ignore him and pass by

15 without checking to see what he was doing.

16 Q. You said that you passed by at 1400 hours on your way to Sotin.

17 Is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. How long did you stay in Sotin, approximately?

20 A. I think that I stayed there -- I can't say exactly. I had lunch

21 with them. Then I did some personal hygiene things for myself.

22 Q. Very well. How long did you stay there?

23 A. About two to two and a half hours.

24 Q. When you arrived at Ovcara, how long did you make efforts on

25 behalf of the prisoners there?

Page 9033

1 A. It's not very easy to be talking constantly about the time-line.

2 I know the events, I know some details. I can say some things about

3 Ovcara as a facility, about the Mitnica group, about the prisoners. So I

4 cannot really say I was there for 20 minutes and then later you will say:

5 Well, you said you were there for 30 minutes. So I'm not sure how many

6 minutes I was there. I was there for as long as it took me to make sure

7 that all the prisoners entered Ovcara.

8 Q. So let us go on. How much time did you need as long as the

9 gauntlet was active and until all the prisoners entered?

10 A. Well, I can't say how much --

11 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers please not overlap.

12 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. How much time did you need for that operation?

14 A. No, I really cannot tell how much time it took.

15 Q. How much time did you spend in the hangar?

16 A. I said that I spent about 30, up to 40, minutes in the hangar. I

17 don't know myself, I'm not sure how long it was. Mostly it was, I think,

18 about 30 minutes. I already said that.

19 Q. How much time did Vukic need after you called him to come to

20 Ovcara? You can assess that.

21 A. You can estimate that.

22 Q. To organise the troops and all of that.

23 A. Perhaps it was 30 to 40 minutes, an hour at the most.

24 Q. Is that in contradiction with your statement, something that you

25 repeated several times, that you spent a total of between 20 and 30

Page 9034

1 minutes inside the hangar at Ovcara? Would that not mean that you could

2 not possibly have seen Vukic if 20 or 30 minutes later you left for

3 Negoslavci?

4 A. I waited for Vukic, that's why I'm saying this. Don't hold me to

5 a precise time-line. I'm telling you about what happened and how it

6 happened.

7 Q. Sir, our task is to check if you're telling the truth. If there

8 is a 20-minute discrepancy regarding your time in the hangar, then I have

9 to check several things with other witnesses, because for all I know, you

10 may have arrived at Ovcara at 1400 hours and that would seem to tie in

11 perfectly.

12 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] I have to ask this one directly, I

13 apologise, Your Honours.

14 Q. Were you at Ovcara from 1400 hours until your departure for the

15 Negoslavci command?

16 A. I cannot really say that I was or that I wasn't.

17 Q. Thank you very much.

18 In the transcript of the trial, the Special Court for war crimes

19 in Belgrade, dated the 24th of November, page 70 - the English reference

20 is page 101 - you were asked the following question by the President of

21 the Trial Chamber: "Were there any other units?"

22 And you said: "No, no one."

23 And after that, on page 70, you said: "No one. All I can say is

24 I think there was a patrol of the traffic police in that task that was

25 sent there to help with the traffic flow when those people were coming out

Page 9035

1 of the hospital. Traffic patrol was requested to provide security."

2 My question is: Your traffic patrol from the 80th Motorised

3 Brigade, was it involved in any way with the captured persons coming out

4 of the hospital?

5 A. No, it wasn't.

6 Q. And yet I have just read out to you your own testimony from the

7 Special Court in Belgrade. Is that true what you stated there?

8 A. Yes, that was indeed what I said, and yesterday I said I thought

9 there was but there wasn't.

10 Q. Who was it that persuaded you that there wasn't?

11 A. I just talked to people and it donned on me at some point that

12 there wasn't.

13 Q. I suppose that one of those people you talked to must have been

14 Vezmarovic, too, that you colluded with him to decide what your testimony

15 would be, right?

16 A. No, I never met Vezmarovic before any of the trials nor did I

17 actually see him at any of the trials.

18 Q. What about the meeting in Kragujevac; did you see him there?

19 A. I saw Vezmarovic in Kragujevac, when my daughter --

20 MR. MOORE: I'm sorry. My learned friend is posing a question to

21 the witness. He is not giving him a chance to refer specifically to the

22 issue. I have managed to locate the evidence that my learned friend is

23 referring to. Initially I thought he had been submitting to the witness

24 or asking the witness about what he saw at 2.00 when he was there. My

25 understanding in relation to this section of the transcript relates to

Page 9036

1 later -- later that day, in relation to the -- what I would call the

2 gauntlet issue. I don't know if that is right or wrong. My learned

3 friend moves so quickly, it's difficult to catch the documents, but it

4 seems to be in relation to a different part of the day and a different

5 issue, but perhaps I'm wrong.

6 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Can you clarify that, Mr. Borovic?

7 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it's all crystal clear.

8 There is a method that I'm using in my cross-examination by which I

9 managed to obtain an answer from the witness. It may have been the case

10 that he was at Ovcara that day from 1400 hours onwards. He said: Yes.

11 The Prosecutor wishes to reprocess my question in order to obtain a

12 different answer, but that is a very different kettle of fish, Your

13 Honours. By now the witness understands that he's expected to change that

14 answer, so ...

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I never told you that I was at

16 Ovcara throughout. You are trying to convince me that I was.

17 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, should I do that

18 again?

19 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: I'm sorry, I'm reading from the

20 transcript on page 10, line 14, on my transcript and the witness answers:

21 "I cannot say that I was or wasn't," so he hasn't answered yes to your

22 question, according to what I see on the transcript. So maybe you can

23 clarify this, please, Mr. Borovic.

24 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Q. When I say that you were there throughout from 1400 hours onwards,

Page 9037

1 that is until your departure for the command post in Negoslavci, inside

2 the hangar, is there any possibility that you were there throughout?

3 A. My answer was -- I am not saying that I was there throughout and I

4 wasn't there inside the hangar, if you mean.

5 Q. Would you allow for the possibility, if I may just jog your memory

6 a little, that you were, after all, there throughout this whole time until

7 you left for the command post in Negoslavci, from 1400 hours onwards. Do

8 you allow for that possibility? Do you leave that possibility open that

9 you were perhaps wrong on that?

10 A. Negoslavci. I left for Negoslavci at about 1700 hours.

11 Q. Before you left for Negoslavci. I am being crystal clear here.

12 Please don't twist my question around.

13 A. I am not trying to do that at all.

14 Q. What would you say if I told you that you were at Ovcara from 1400

15 hours until you left for the command post in Negoslavci for your regular

16 briefing, as you suggest, at about 1700 hours. You have just said that,

17 haven't you? 1700 hours was the time of your departure for the command

18 post in Negoslavci; right?

19 A. Yes, that's right.

20 Q. Isn't it obvious, then, that what you've been talking about for

21 two days, that you had reached Ovcara a lot earlier than you originally

22 suggested?

23 A. When I finally came, I don't know if I was there all the time, but

24 I know that I left at about 1700 hours for the command post.

25 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Vojnovic, I think we've managed, finally,

Page 9038

1 to shed some light on this particular issue.

2 If I told you that Dragi Vukosavljevic stated that he had been to

3 Ovcara on your orders twice, would that be correct?

4 A. Well, that's what Dragi sent. I know that I sent him once and

5 maybe he went yet another time.

6 Q. Thank you very much. The second time around that you sent him to

7 Ovcara, was that in order to convey your express orders to the military

8 police to withdraw, to pull out?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. I don't know if anyone asked you: Do you know who Novica

11 Trifunovic from Kragujevac is?

12 A. No. I heard that he was a soldier, but -- actually, excuse me,

13 you probably mean an officer who was here recently. A man named

14 Trifunovic testified here recently. I read about that in the newspapers.

15 I'm not sure if that's the same person. Is he an officer or whatever?

16 Q. No, Novica Trifunovic from Kragujevac. That is the person I'm

17 asking you about. Your commander of your military police company claims

18 that he found Novica Trifunovic at Ovcara with soldiers and that he

19 chucked them out of the hangar.

20 A. Yes, but I still don't know who Novica Trifunovic is, do I?

21 Q. I'm talking about Jovan Novkovic, my apologies.

22 A. Jovan Novkovic, yes, yes, I know that person.

23 Q. And do you know that he was chucked out of the hangar by

24 Vezmarovic on that day?

25 A. No.

Page 9039

1 Q. Very well. You got pretty emotional yesterday when you explained

2 to Mr. Vasic that the actual fact was you came across Ovcara and the

3 hangar quite by accident and that is where the problem arose, and I'm

4 asking you: Were not members of your 80th Motorised Brigade at the hangar

5 even prior to your arrival? Would that not be true?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Didn't you say yesterday that the rope had been set up already at

8 Ovcara?

9 A. Just several soldiers.

10 Q. Did you not say yesterday that the rope had already been set up by

11 the time you arrived?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Just a minute, please. Yes or no.

14 A. Yes. The rope had already been set up by the time I arrived in

15 the hangar.

16 Q. Do you know that this rope was strung up by Vezmarovic, or at

17 least, that's what he claims before this Chamber?

18 A. I have no idea who set it up. All I know is when I came there it

19 was there and it was up already.

20 Q. What if I told you that this was Vezmarovic, that his military

21 police company did that? Would it not seem to imply that they preceded

22 you at Ovcara inside the hangar? I will do my best. Thank you.

23 A. I can't confirm that. I believed Vezmarovic to be on his way from

24 Mitrovica to Negoslavci at the time. I didn't realise that he had been to

25 the hangar previously.

Page 9040

1 Q. What about members of his company? Maybe they were the ones who

2 put the rope up, the rope that you claim to have seen when you arrived.

3 A. It may have been the local commander, whose name I shouldn't

4 mention. Maybe there were two or three members of his group with white

5 belts, but Vezmarovic was not there at the time.

6 Q. Furthermore, you stated that you had found there a regular JNA

7 soldier who was drawing up some sort of list, right?

8 A. No, I didn't say he was a regular JNA soldier. He was a soldier

9 who was seated there. He wasn't wearing a cap or anything. I'm not sure

10 if he was JNA or anything else.

11 Q. So who is it drawing up this list now? You were the commander

12 there and you were protecting the prisoners and there was somebody drawing

13 up lists of those prisoners. Did you check that or not?

14 A. I didn't check who it was. I realised that there was a person in

15 uniform seated at that table there, or desk, and drawing up lists. Now,

16 as to who he was, from which unit, I really don't know.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please be

18 asked to remove his hand from his mouth while speaking; we can't hear him

19 properly.

20 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation].

21 Q. If I tell you that this member --

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge, please.

23 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Mr. Vojnovic, can you remove your hand,

24 because the interpreters can't hear you. Can you remove your hand from

25 the microphone. Thank you.

Page 9041

1 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] May I continue, Your Honour?

2 Q. When talking about Vezmarovic, you have stated several times that

3 you believed him to be on his way from Mitrovica back to Negoslavci and

4 then on to Ovcara at the time, right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. What if I told you that he, while testifying before this

7 International Court, clearly stated that he had been in Nijemci on that

8 day and not in Mitrovica at all, but rather that it was from Nijemci that

9 he eventually reached Negoslavci and, after that, Ovcara? Would that

10 change anything about the way you feel about this particular incident?

11 A. No, it does not at all. To the best of my knowledge, whether he

12 went from Mitrovica to Nijemci, I don't know. All in all, I'm saying he

13 wasn't there, because why else would I be requesting assistance?

14 Q. Let's leave this story alone for a while. You've been repeating

15 this over and over for two days; he wasn't there.

16 A. Yes, but that's the very same thing you're telling me about those

17 two days.

18 Q. I asked you about Nijemci.

19 A. I don't know.

20 Q. Are you saying Vezmarovic isn't telling the truth when he says

21 that he was in Nijemci on that day?

22 A. No, I'm not saying that. He may have left Mitrovica and drove

23 through all the villages on the way in order to get there.

24 Q. Very fine. Thank you. Did you have any military of your own in

25 Nijemci?

Page 9042

1 A. I think that I did, but I don't know exactly which one.

2 Q. Would you please be so kind -- try to remember something specific,

3 at least.

4 A. I may be wrong: I think it was an engineers unit or something.

5 Q. Thank you. You say that you had a Campagnola with a piece of

6 radio equipment; right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Is this vehicle usually referred to as the small command staff

9 vehicle?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Is that MS -- MKSK, is that the abbreviation normally used?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Was this vehicle typically not at the disposal of battalion

14 commanders only?

15 A. Yes, in terms of the establishment, but not always.

16 Q. That means that some lower-ranking officers, company commanders

17 and so on, could not have had it.

18 A. No, the battalion commanders did not have all this equipment. In

19 terms of establishment-wise, they were supposed to have all this

20 equipment, but in actual fact they didn't.

21 Q. What about your military police company commander? He is a man

22 within whose remit it is to guard the prisoners at Nijemci. We believe

23 this was the case. Who could possibly have summoned him back for a new

24 assignment?

25 A. I think he came of his own accord, not having been summoned by

Page 9043

1 anyone, he came to Negoslavci. At Negoslavci he heard at the brigade

2 command that there was some sort of a mess at Ovcara. Without waiting, he

3 just drove straight on to Ovcara.

4 Q. And he arrived without any of his military policemen?

5 A. I don't know who he came with.

6 Q. I'm asking you.

7 A. I don't think he came alone.

8 Q. What about his military police company? Were they perhaps at

9 Ovcara already by the time he arrived?

10 A. Not that I saw them.

11 Q. But you're saying that you do know. Firstly you say that you know

12 that no one summoned him back and then I asked you: How do you know that

13 no one summoned him back? Who told you that?

14 A. The duty operations officer.

15 Q. What exactly did he tell you?

16 A. That he had been told that Vezmarovic had already gone back.

17 There was a mess at Ovcara, the commander was there, and he said something

18 else. He wasted no time driving back and he drove straight back.

19 Q. Thank you very much. Does that mean that when he got to Ovcara he

20 found you there since the duty operations officer told him that the

21 commander was already there?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Thank you. Does that now imply that you actually saw him arrive

24 at Ovcara?

25 A. I'm not sure if I saw him arrive that very minute.

Page 9044

1 Q. When was it, then?

2 A. It's very difficult for me to say. There were a lot of people

3 milling around. There was a lot of coming and going. I do know that he

4 was there, though.

5 Q. Who was in charge at this time? You know that he was at Ovcara.

6 Who was in charge of establishing order, imposing discipline? Would that

7 be the military police company commander or you?

8 A. No, it was Major Vukasinovic.

9 Q. For what, in charge of what?

10 A. He was the one who brought the prisoners there, he was the one who

11 took them inside the hangar.

12 Q. Just a minute, sir. Who was it that pulled the rope up? Was that

13 done by Major Vukasinovic?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Was Major Vukasinovic drawing up lists that you saw?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Was Major Vukasinovic physically imposing order inside the hangar?

18 A. No, but that would have been his duty.

19 Q. Was all of this not in fact not done by members of your 80th

20 Motorised Brigade?

21 A. It should have been --

22 Q. I'm asking you about the facts.

23 A. Facts about what?

24 Q. All you're telling us about.

25 A. No.

Page 9045

1 Q. All these actions, all these steps, everything that I've just told

2 you, what about the facts? Were all these things not done by members of

3 -- your members of the 80th Motorised Brigade?

4 A. Yes, pursuant to orders of Major Vukasinovic because he --

5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the speakers please

6 kindly be asked not to speak at the same time.

7 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Who issued the order to the military police company, to Vukic, to

9 the soldiers of the Ovcara local commander to carry out these tasks that I

10 just asked you about? Was it you?

11 A. I told --

12 Q. Did you issue this order to all of them?

13 A. I issued an order to Vukic to report to Major Lukic [as

14 interpreted] --

15 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers pleased be asked to slow

16 down, especially Mr. Borovic. It is very difficult to have an accurate

17 transcript at this pace -- actually, it's impossible.

18 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Did you see Major Vukasinovic ordering any kind of order or not in

20 your presence?

21 A. They were talking to some people there; we don't know who they

22 are.

23 Q. I'm going to repeat my question for the third time: Did you see

24 Major Vukasinovic issuing an order members of the military police company,

25 to the soldiers of the local commander of Ovcara, to you, or to anyone

Page 9046

1 else, or not?

2 A. No. I -- no assignment was issued to Major Vukasinovic. I don't

3 know whether he said anything to members of the military police.

4 Q. So you didn't hear it.

5 A. No, I did not.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we now briefly

8 go into private session.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

10 MR. MOORE: Before we go into private, or even when we're in

11 private, 21:3, I wonder whether in actual fact that is correct. There is

12 a reference to a Major Lukic.

13 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Moore. It should

14 state Major Vukic.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Vukic is not a major, it's not

16 Vukic.

17 MR. MOORE: No, that can't be right either. Perhaps the question

18 could be asked again.

19 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

20 Q. When Vukic came at your summons, did you order him to do anything?

21 A. Yes, I did.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] I asked us to move into private

24 session.

25 MR. MOORE: But we haven't dealt with the topic.

Page 9047

1 [Private session]

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

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21 (redacted)

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23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 9048

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2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11 Pages 9048-9054 redacted. Private session.

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

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Page 9055

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 [Open session]

10 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

11 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Can the witness explain to us, in case of an urgent necessity, how

13 can he get in touch with the commander of the military police company when

14 he needed him for an urgent assignment and he was not at the command post?

15 A. I don't know. He was constantly in communication with the chief

16 of security. Not with us, though, because he did not have a radio device

17 installed in his vehicle. He didn't have an adequate vehicle. These were

18 just provisional ill-equipped vehicles that were used at the time.

19 Q. Did Vezmarovic drive a Campagnola?

20 A. Yes, but not every Campagnola is equipped with a radio device.

21 Q. Thank you. Do you know if members of the military police company,

22 together with the prisoners, arrived at Ovcara before you came?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Do you know where they were at the time?

25 A. Members of the military police company? I've explained that. I

Page 9056

1 assumed they were somewhere between Sremska Mitrovica and Negoslavci.

2 Q. Thank you. You've also stated to the investigators of the OTP

3 that you've learned from some local inhabitants at Negoslavci about the

4 crime at Ovcara.

5 A. Yes, the next day.

6 Q. My learned friend asked you a question yesterday and I wanted to

7 follow-up. Did you have any physical contact with any investigator after

8 the events, physical contact? Did you meet with any investigator?

9 A. Do you mean investigator from this Tribunal?

10 Q. No, from Vukovar.

11 A. No.

12 Q. Can you explain to the Chamber how it came that you left Slovenia?

13 A. Slovenia: In an organised fashion, together with other units that

14 were pulled out of Slovenia.

15 Q. Thank you. Before this organised withdrawal, where were you in

16 Slovenia?

17 A. I was in the Slovenska Bistrica garrison. I was commander of the

18 11th Partisan Brigade, and almost 100 per cent of our troops were

19 Slovenians.

20 Q. How did it come about that you left the garrison?

21 A. An order came from the superior command.

22 Q. Did you withdraw without any fighting from the garrison in

23 Slovenia?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Please explain.

Page 9057

1 A. We secured our facilities that were attacked, and in the meantime

2 an agreement was reached to have a cease-fire, and that's how we pulled

3 out.

4 Q. Thank you. Would you agree with me that you haven't fired a

5 single bullet before pulling out of Slovenia?

6 A. I do agree, and luckily so.

7 Q. Did you fire a single bullet at Ovcara before you left and

8 abandoned the prisoners at the hangar?

9 A. I did not.

10 Q. If we are to go back to the Mitnica group now, did your military

11 police company represent the main part of the security detail at Ovcara at

12 the moment?

13 A. My officers who were securing the Mitnica group in the hangar were

14 there together with some members of the military police company.

15 Q. Thank you. The local commander of Ovcara, whose name we are not

16 going to mention, was he the chief negotiator between the European

17 Community and the Operations Group South?

18 A. When the Mitnica group was there?

19 Q. Yes.

20 A. I don't know. But I think he was assisting with the transport and

21 security of civilians, of women and children, since he spoke English, and

22 he offered -- he lent a hand there.

23 Q. Thank you. Did he do that with your approval or his own?

24 A. People were talking there, and he took part. He would explain to

25 both sides what the requests were, what the opinion was, and he would pass

Page 9058

1 on orders, and I believe it functioned well.

2 Q. My question was: Did he do that based on your approval?

3 A. We were together. I didn't tell him: Please translate this for

4 me. When they would ask questions, that was the first time that I

5 realised that (redacted) spoke English, and this was a conversation we

6 had. I didn't prohibit him from talking. Why would I?

7 Q. You said that the task had been carried out successfully.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Concerning that particular task, how many members of the 80th

10 Motorised Brigade were there together with officers?

11 A. I don't know; not too many.

12 Q. How many, approximately?

13 A. I really can't say. There was an officer there, perhaps some of

14 his associates, a group of soldiers, myself, some of our officers. I

15 didn't need to remember that. It was done successfully, and I'm quite

16 happy because of that.

17 Q. Who commanded over the entire situation? Did you?

18 A. I was the most senior officer at the time there.

19 Q. And so you were in command?

20 A. I believe so.

21 Q. You were. Did you say you were?

22 A. Yes. I don't know whether I commanded, but I was the most senior.

23 Given that was a military situation, there was no need to have that

24 clearly defined.

25 Q. I asked you specifically who led the entire action. You said you

Page 9059

1 were the most senior person there. I want to have a clear answer for the

2 transcript: Were you the main person there and did you have the

3 operation, did you follow it through?

4 A. I know there were seven to nine buses of women and children.

5 Q. We know who was there. With your 80th Motorised Brigade, did --

6 were you in charge of the entire operation?

7 A. We secured the people and they were taken away in an organised

8 way, but I don't know exactly where.

9 Q. Can we agree that the soldiers of your 80th Motorised Brigade

10 carried out the entire operation of securing the prisoners, doing the

11 negotiations by themselves, that it was only them there?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Thank you. Another question: Why didn't you repeat the same

14 thing on the 20th of November with the same troops? You had done that on

15 the 18th.

16 A. It wasn't the same operation; it was a completely different

17 situation. On the first occasion I was the most senior. There were no

18 officers from the superior command; in the latter example, there were.

19 Q. On the 20th of November, did you ask for any assistance from where

20 you were? You had your MKSK. Did you ask for a military police battalion

21 to be sent or did you ask for any other unit that you may have deemed

22 helpful? Did you ask that other members of the 80th Motorised Brigade

23 come there because you could issue orders to them and you could ask for

24 their assistance on the 20th of November from the location where you were?

25 A. Only the person who organised the whole thing and brought the

Page 9060

1 people to the hangar could have done that.

2 Q. I will repeat the question: Did you ask for assistance --

3 MR. MOORE: I'm sorry. I have no idea why the witness is being

4 asked the question. He's given a perfectly clear answer. Why should the

5 witness have to answer the question when he's answered so clearly?

6 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Mr. Borovic.

7 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, excuse me. The witness

8 did not provide a clear answer; he rather switched to another topic. My

9 question was quite clear. Since he had a radio device in his MKSK, did he

10 personally ask for some assistance, since he was on the location? As to

11 who had the right to do that or not, that's another issue.

12 Q. To repeat the question: Did you ask for any assistance from

13 anyone?

14 A. I answered already. I didn't ask for any assistance. The person

15 who brought those people was the only who could have asked for some help.

16 He was the one to bear the responsibility.

17 Q. Could you read out a paragraph -- but before that, I'll ask you

18 this: Were there any proceedings instigated against you before the court

19 in Belgrade for the incidents at Ovcara?

20 A. No, this is the first time I've heard of it.

21 Q. Were you ever interviewed as a suspect by any security organ or

22 the police?

23 A. No. This is a statement given to the security organ. Maybe you

24 had that in mind. I gave a statement to the security organ of the general

25 staff and to the military court.

Page 9061

1 Q. In your statement in paragraph 42 - and that was the statement

2 given to the OTP investigators - the same number in the B/C/S and in the

3 English - that was in September and October of 2003 - you stated the

4 following. I will read it out and please follow.

5 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] And I would kindly ask the usher to

6 give that statement to you since I don't see it before you. We have an

7 extra copy here; perhaps it could be passed on to the witness.

8 Q. Please go to paragraph 42. In the first sentence of paragraph 42,

9 does it state the following: "Considering my experience as JNA commander,

10 and specifically my experience from Vukovar, I would not have handed over

11 the evacuees/prisoners to anyone but the legitimate government."

12 Is that what is stated here?

13 A. Yes, it is.

14 Q. And then a few lines down does it state the following: "If Mrksic

15 had ordered me to hand over the evacuees to the --"

16 MR. MOORE: I'm sorry, if my learned friend is going to read the

17 passages, he must put the whole paragraph so the witness has an

18 opportunity of seeing the context.

19 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] I will continue, Your Honour, and

20 perhaps my learned friend can clear things up in his redirect. We needn't

21 go through the entire paragraph; we know the context. And I'm interested

22 in particular in the lines I wanted to read out.

23 "If Mrksic had ordered me to hand over the evacuees to the local

24 Serbian TO, I would have obeyed the order on the condition that the

25 evacuees were given no trouble. However, if I had been there alone as the

Page 9062

1 most senior officer, I would have seen to it that the evacuees were taken

2 to a safe place and would have sent the TO away. (I would have barred

3 their presence)."

4 Q. Is that what is stated there, Mr. Vojnovic?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. First of all, was Dragi Vukosavljevic trying to warn you to do

7 something similar to as described here?

8 A. What do you mean "to do something"?

9 Q. To do as you stated in this statement, had you been at Ovcara and

10 had you been the most senior-ranking officer?

11 A. No, no.

12 Q. But this is what is stated here. You said --

13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.

14 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Did Dragi Vukosavljevic try to warn you that those evacuees should

16 be taken someplace else and the TO members sent away?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Had you been the most senior officer, why wouldn't you have done

19 that, as you stated here?

20 A. Had I been the most senior and had I been responsible, I would

21 have secured them. I wasn't the most senior, however; it was Major

22 Vukasinovic. He had brought them there and he was tasked with their

23 security. This was -- what I tried to do with the prisoners can clearly

24 be seen with the situation with the Mitnica group and the way I handled

25 the situation there.

Page 9063

1 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't catch the last part of

2 the answer.

3 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. With the 80th Motorised Brigade and your members of the military

5 police company as well as your officers -- on the 20th of November,

6 together with your officers, with your military police company, and other

7 members of the 80th Motorised Brigade, would you have been able to see

8 this task through successfully had you had the orders and the authority

9 you stated here?

10 A. I had no authority of command over the TO.

11 Q. But suppose you did. With the troops you commanded, could you

12 have seen the tasks through successfully?

13 A. I had no powers over the TO.

14 Q. But assuming you had, my question was quite clear, and do not try

15 to interrupt me. With the forces you had and considering the way you

16 handled things the first time around, could you have done this

17 successfully the second time?

18 A. I would have had I been given the responsibility of the prisoners.

19 Q. Does that mean that you had the sufficient troops who could have

20 seen that through?

21 A. Not only the troops. Had I been given the task, I would have done

22 so.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] This concludes my cross-examination.

25 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you, Mr. Borovic.

Page 9064

1 Mr. Lukic, are you going to start? We have 15 minutes before the

2 break. That's --

3 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think this was not

4 recorded properly. I asked: "Would you have had sufficient forces to

5 complete that task had you been entrusted with it?" And the answer was:

6 "If I had been given the assignment, I would have had sufficient forces

7 at my disposal to complete the task."

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, as was the case previously with

9 the Mitnica group.

10 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Thank you very much.

12 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you, Mr. Borovic.

13 Mr. Lukic.

14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I've just checked the

15 time. I may as well begin now, but then the next session would only be a

16 one-hour session. It might be more helpful to have the break now, but it

17 might be better to give the witness a chance to rest and then resume after

18 that.

19 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Very well, Mr. Lukic. We will have our

20 break now. Since there has been a redaction, we will have half an hour

21 break, so we will gather at 20 past 11.00.

22 --- Recess taken at 10.50 a.m.

23 --- On resuming at 11.24 a.m.

24 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Mr. Lukic.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Again, good morning, Your

Page 9065

1 Honours, good morning to all.

2 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

3 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Vojnovic, good morning. I am Novak Lukic,

4 one of Veselin Sljivancanin's Defence counsel. I will be asking you some

5 questions. You have your own statements in front of you and some of the

6 documents that we shall be looking at in search of answers. First I'll

7 ask you a couple of questions. This was something that was raised by

8 Mr. Moore at the beginning of his examination-in-chief, something about

9 your statements. It is quite obvious that you have provided quite a

10 number of those and you have given a lot of evidence on these events that

11 you have been talking about here over the last couple of days. Some of

12 those testimonies were quite extensive and quite detailed. You will agree

13 with me on that, right? I mean, primarily in relation to Ovcara in

14 Belgrade. You testified for two days. You were confronted with the

15 testimonies of other witnesses, and you were asked a lot of questions.

16 Right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. In relation to your statement to the OTP, and you have that set of

19 statements in front of you so you can have a look, please. Your statement

20 to the OTP, there's one thing that I've noticed. This conversation went

21 on for three days; 24th, 25th -- the 25th and 26th September, 2003, and

22 the 2nd of October, 2003.

23 A. The best part of the conversation lasted for two days. The third

24 day I only came back to go through the statement and sign it, but we

25 finished most of the interview on the first two days.

Page 9066

1 Q. That's fine. Thank you. Another thing that I've noticed is the

2 OTP had a very strong team representing it. There was Mr. Theunens, there

3 was Kristina Carey, and I realise that an observer was present from the

4 General Staff of the armed forces, Dragan Dusenovic. He was there

5 throughout, right?

6 A. Yes, there was a colonel representing the General Staff the first

7 two days, not the third day.

8 Q. I believe that you provided detailed answers to a wide range of

9 questions raised by the OTP in relation to just about everything they

10 wanted to know about, and you probably had some answers. Right?

11 A. Yes, at least to the extent I now remember.

12 Q. So much for the statements. Thank you. I'll ask you the usual

13 question I ask witnesses here, something about my client. A couple of

14 questions about Veselin Sljivancanin. You told Mr. Moore that when you

15 arrived in Negoslavci you knew virtually none of the officers from the

16 Guards Brigade. I do assume, however, that you met my client at the

17 command of the operations group of the Guards Brigade. Did you know

18 Sljivancanin back then?

19 A. I did not know a single officer from Operations Group South until

20 my arrival in Negoslavci. It was in Negoslavci that I met the innermost

21 circle of brigade commanders, including Major Sljivancanin.

22 Q. Thank you. I concluded from your evidence - I'm now talking about

23 the 20th of November alone, the afternoon hours - regardless of how long

24 this took, throughout that time you did not see my client inside the

25 hangar or around the hangar there. You didn't, right?

Page 9067

1 A. That's right, I didn't see him there.

2 Q. That was your evidence in all the different trials in which you

3 testified. Can you look at paragraph 46 of your statement to the OTP.

4 You were shown a photograph of my client. I'll just read that to you, and

5 you say: "Veselin Sljivancanin, I did not see him at Ovcara or at the

6 meeting on the 20th of November, 1991, at the command post of the Guards

7 Brigade. However, I was late to that meeting and by the time I arrived,

8 the other officers were leaving already."

9 This is what you stated back then. Just for the sake of

10 precision, I will ask you to do this: Can you please get the transcript

11 from the Belgrade trial, dated the 25th of November. You should have it

12 right in front of you. The reference is page 20, and for the benefit of

13 my learned friends and the Chamber, the English reference is page 23, line

14 8. You provided very specific answers to these questions, and I want that

15 to be reflected in our records, too.

16 A. Where exactly is that?

17 Q. Page 20, the transcript is the 25th of November, 2004. Have you

18 found that, the Belgrade Ovcara trial? Page 20. Further down the page,

19 Deputy Prosecutor Dusan Knezevic, halfway down the page, this question:

20 "I should like to know whether Major Sljivancanin was present when the

21 witness Lieutenant-Colonel Vojnovic informed Colonel Mrksic of the

22 situation with the prisoners."

23 A. I don't know --

24 Q. Just a minute, please. Let us just finish this. I'll read the

25 entire paragraph and then can you please start answering after that.

Page 9068

1 "Presiding Judge: You did answer that question yesterday, didn't

2 you?

3 "Witness Vojnovic: What I said was I cannot confirm 100 per cent

4 whether he was there or not.

5 "Presiding Judge: But you did say no to that question yesterday.

6 Right?

7 "Witness Vojnovic: Well, I'm still saying the same thing. I did

8 not see him.

9 "Presiding Judge: Yesterday, when answering a question of mine to

10 that effect, you answered no. You said that Mrksic, yourself, and

11 Vukosavljevic were there, whereas you didn't see him. You are talking

12 about a room where there are a number of people and that is now in this

13 group.

14 "Witness Vojnovic: I didn't see him then. I mean, Mrksic is

15 quite a striking man. He stands out and people knew him. I think I would

16 have noticed him, and I knew him.

17 "Presiding Judge: Never mind noticed. Did you talk or didn't

18 you?

19 "Witness Vojnovic: I did not contact him personally, but I did

20 not see him. I do not know whether he was there.

21 "Presiding Judge: Sljivancanin, yes, probably, but he says

22 Mrksic is tall and a striking man. He said 'Mrksic.' All right."

23 The final question by the Prosecutor: "So was he in that room or

24 wasn't he?"

25 Your answer: "I did not see him."

Page 9069

1 Mr. Vojnovic, there's a slight discrepancy there. Mrksic, his

2 striking looks, then Sljivancanin, you were obviously talking about

3 Sljivancanin. Do you still stand by everything you said in Belgrade?

4 A. Yes. I did not see him then.

5 Q. Thank you very much. Let's move on. Now, I'll ask you something

6 else about my client, Mr. Sljivancanin. Let's go to the very end of the

7 time-line, if I may put it that way, the meeting at Velepromet. My client

8 says - and tell me if I am wrong - that the meeting was held on the day

9 the Guards Brigade was about to leave, the 24th at about 1400 hours. That

10 very day when the Guards Brigade was about to withdraw, there was this

11 meeting at Velepromet, the one you described for us. Is that possible?

12 A. I'm sure the meeting took place. What he said is true. I said

13 that was just before the Guards Brigade left, but I didn't give the date.

14 I thought it may have been a day or two earlier, but that makes no

15 difference.

16 Q. Let me jog your memory about something that my client claims.

17 Mr. Vojnovic, do you remember that the main subject discussed at the

18 meeting to which my client had been invited by the TO commanders was the

19 fact that the TO commanders then requested from him that the money be

20 handed over to them that the army had previously found in the Vukovar

21 bank? Sljivancanin replied they couldn't have the money, that the money

22 would be given to the civilian authorities once these had been

23 established, that the money would then be returned. Do you remember that

24 being the main subject discussed at the meeting?

25 A. I can't really remember that this was the crucial thing discussed

Page 9070

1 at the meeting. They were saying things like that, but I'm not sure if

2 that was the most important subject matter actually raised at the meeting.

3 There were references later on to other requests for money, the money from

4 the post office. And I know people were saying that they would be given

5 the money through some other channels or through someone else's mediation.

6 This may have been mentioned by Major Sljivancanin and it certainly was

7 discussed.

8 Q. So this was discussed.

9 A. Yes, and it was also discussed later on.

10 Q. Both Vujovic and Vujanovic were adamant about the money, weren't

11 they? People from the TO staff, but Sljivancanin stood firm and refused

12 to hand the money over to them, didn't he? Is this possible?

13 A. Yes, it's possible. It may have been like that.

14 Q. Fine. Let's move on.

15 You've talked a lot about the area of responsibility, about the

16 relationships within OG South. You understand, given my client's profile,

17 I'm especially interested in the relationships between the military

18 police, the security, and the commander. So I'll ask you several

19 questions about that. I believe the Prosecutor previously examined you on

20 this. I heard - and I believe this is beyond dispute - that your military

21 police company of the 80th Motorised Brigade remained there as a staff

22 unit when you arrived in Negoslavci. Right?

23 A. Yes. Right there, near the command.

24 Q. They were going about their regular duties in terms of providing

25 security for the command post for the commander himself. There was a

Page 9071

1 check-point, we heard; all of this was going on in Negoslavci. Right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. In general terms, and I'm talking about the staff units that

4 remained under your direct command, did any of those officers ever tell

5 you about any lack of discipline in those units, disciplinary violations?

6 I especially want to know about the military police company. Did any of

7 the officers ever mention anything like that?

8 A. The entire unit was made up of reservists. It was difficult to

9 mobilise. It was difficult to actually bring there. There were problems,

10 there were a number of incidents, but nothing that would have caused any

11 major concerns.

12 Q. I suppose you received reports about this both from the chief of

13 security and the company commander. Right?

14 A. I wasn't much in touch with the company commander. He did come to

15 see me once and he said a thing or two about that.

16 Q. Mr. Vojnovic, we are on the verge of being cautioned by the

17 interpreters. Please make a short pause so that the entire question and

18 the entire answer may be recorded.

19 I realise by looking at your CV that at one point in time you were

20 a commander of a military police company. Right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You completed a six-month training course, specialised training,

23 in Pancevo for military police officers. Right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now, we've heard evidence before this Court and we've looked at

Page 9072

1 the regulations. I don't want to press the issue -- well, depending on

2 any answers I may be getting from you in due course, but what I want to

3 know now is the provisions that were in force at the time when all of this

4 was going on in Vukovar. You will agree with me that the rules governing

5 the work of the armed forces are fundamental, the rules govern governing

6 the military police in the armed forces, and the rules governing the work

7 of the security officers in the armed forces. These are the main sources;

8 right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Based on these regulations, who commands a military police

11 company?

12 A. Based on the regulations -- well, that could change. Sometimes it

13 was a staff unit and sometimes it was directly under the command of the

14 commander of a superior unit. But for the most part it would be the unit

15 commander through his own technical organ, the chief of security.

16 Q. You say that under the regulations the security organ is in

17 command of the military police directly?

18 A. Yes, they provide professional and technical guidance.

19 Q. All right. That's right. We have to look at the regulations.

20 You have them right in front of you. I don't want to press this issue,

21 but do you agree with me that a military police company is commanded by

22 the company commander, and his superior officer, in terms of the chain of

23 command, is the commander of a superior unit? A brigade, let us assume

24 that for the time being, if it's a staff unit, and in terms of technical

25 guidance, it is the security organ from the brigade command that is in

Page 9073

1 charge of this unit. Right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And the security organ makes proposals to his superior in terms of

4 the chain of command, the brigade commander, the use of a military police

5 company proposes measures in relation to the military police company but

6 cannot directly issue an order except by the commander's approval. Right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. I hope we don't have to go back to the rules and look at them just

9 because of this, but still --

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe you, too,

11 have ... Just a minute, please. Let me ask the witness for his

12 professional expertise. He seems to be extremely well-versed in these

13 matters. Exhibit 107, the rules of service for the security organ.

14 Q. Mr. Vojnovic, you have in front of you the rules of service both

15 for the military police, but we'll not be looking at that now. I believe

16 we've covered that ground, as it were. But can you please have a look at

17 the rules of service for the security organ. This is Exhibit 107. Let's

18 look at Article 16. Have you found it? I'm going to read it.

19 A. The jurisdiction of the military police, is that it?

20 Q. No, no, it's the rules of service for the security organs.

21 Article 16, controlling the security organs. We've marked it.

22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter's note: We don't have a copy of

23 the original.

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I am reading. For the interpreters, I

25 hope it will be slow enough.

Page 9074

1 "Controlling the organs of security, Article 16.

2 "The security organs -- the security organ is directly

3 subordinated to the officer of the command of the unit or institution or

4 the armed forces staff in whose establishment formation it is placed and

5 is responsible for its work to that officer. Security organs of the JNA

6 in organisations of the MVO are responsible to the federal secretary of

7 the federal organ."

8 Q. Mr. Vojnovic, we don't want to interpret the article, but it is

9 clear that the security organ is directly subordinated to the command

10 officer, or to say in the example of your particular unit, Dragi

11 Vukosavljevic is immediately subordinated to you according to the line of

12 command.

13 And now we have Article 18, because we also discussed that. These

14 are the relationships of the security organs between the commands at

15 different levels.

16 "The security organs --" I'm reading Article 18.

17 "The security organs of the superior command unit, institutions,

18 and staffs of the armed forces control in the expert sense the security

19 organs in subordinated commands, units, institutions, and staffs of the

20 armed forces; provide assistance to those organs; and organise, direct,

21 coordinate, and inspect their work."

22 You would agree with me that the relationship between the security

23 organs at various levels is only at the expert level and there is no

24 command or subordinate aspect there?

25 A. Yes.

Page 9075

1 Q. Thank you. So to conclude, in relation to Captain Vezmarovic,

2 according to the line of command, only the brigade commander who could

3 have commanded him -- or rather, you, Vukosavljevic would have guided his

4 work from the expert aspect, and some other officer, for example, the

5 Chief of Staff whom you mentioned, could have commanded Vezmarovic only if

6 you authorised him to do that. Is that correct?

7 A. Yes. Or any other officer if something was needed.

8 Q. Right. But only in accordance with your approval?

9 A. Yes, that is correct.

10 Q. I assume that your security chief, either at daily briefings or

11 during the regular daily briefing, regularly informed you about all the

12 information pertaining to his area of responsibility.

13 A. Yes. He would inform the commander about any matters pertaining

14 to his duties that he felt were necessary.

15 Q. When you testified two days ago - this is on page 8826 of the

16 transcript - when Mr. Moore asked you about the relationship -- you don't

17 have that in front of you, I'm just going to read it to you. The

18 relationship between Vukasinovic and Sljivancanin, you said, answer -- the

19 Prosecutor asked you whether Sljivancanin had any duties in relation to

20 your brigade. Your answer was: [In English] "I am not aware of that now,

21 except that he was the chief of Operative Group South and he probably

22 cooperated with my security organs."

23 [Interpretation] You probably meant chief of security and not

24 chief, but I'm interested in something else. You said that he probably

25 cooperated with your security organ. Is that correct?

Page 9076

1 A. Yes, and that's how it is in practice. The security organs of the

2 superior and subordinate command mostly cooperate.

3 Q. Yes. But you said, and I am concluding, because Vukosavljevic

4 informed you personally -- I spoke with Sljivancanin, we exchanged

5 information, or something else. When you said "probably" --

6 A. He never said anything like that, but as far as I know, I did -- I

7 think that he did cooperate with him.

8 Q. Very well. Are you aware that your security organ, from the

9 moment when he -- or, rather, you came to Negoslavci, had continuous

10 contact with the Kragujevac security organ on the -- of the 24th, did you

11 have information about that?

12 A. No, I had no information of -- about him maintaining contact with

13 anyone from the Kragujevac Corps.

14 Q. My question is not clear. I am -- I meant the Kragujevac Corps,

15 the 24th Corps - and this is page 52, line 2 - and we have an answer to

16 that question.

17 Did Vukosavljevic inform you that along the expert line he had

18 contacts, information, reporting with the security organs from the 1st

19 Military District who were in Sid at the time?

20 A. I don't know the details, but I know that he did have some

21 contacts with them.

22 Q. Were these contacts maintained from early November while you were

23 still part of OG South? Do you remember that?

24 A. I don't remember that, and Dragi could not have been in touch

25 immediately. He needed to see exactly where he was, assess the situation,

Page 9077

1 but he probably established contact quite quickly. He probably found

2 those people from the superior command quite quickly and that he got in

3 touch with them.

4 Q. Thank you. We're now moving to another topic. You testified that

5 you were regularly at OG South meetings in the Negoslavci command, which

6 were usually held in the afternoon. Is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Do you recall that at any of those meetings there was talk about

9 the evacuation of the hospital and there was also talk about who would be

10 carrying out the evacuation of the hospital?

11 A. No, there was no discussion about that and I don't recall that.

12 Q. Thank you. Very well. Let us continue. We're moving to another

13 topic now. From your testimony during these two days, I have drawn the

14 conclusion and I gained the impression that you knew Major Ljubisa

15 Vukasinovic from before, before the time that you said you saw him at the

16 hangar. My question is: Where did you know him from?

17 A. I knew him from the OG South command post. I didn't know him

18 before I came. That's where I met him.

19 Q. The command post of the operations group?

20 A. Yes, that's where I saw him in the group of the officers and

21 senior officers.

22 Q. Tell me, do you know specifically what his post was? You said

23 Sljivancanin's deputy, but I would like a soldier's precision. Do you

24 know exactly what his post was?

25 A. I don't know his specific establishment post, but if Sljivancanin

Page 9078

1 was the chief of security of Operations Group South, then according to my

2 logic and according to the establishment formation, he should have been a

3 clerk in the security organ. As to whether this was really so or not is

4 something that I really cannot assert.

5 Q. Well, I'm going to tell you, and I'm sure my learned friend from

6 the Prosecution would like to know what my position is.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please repeat the post.

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Okay. I'm going to repeat the answer.

9 Q. Major Ljubisa Vukasinovic was the assistant chief of security in

10 the Guards Motorised Brigade for staff and police affairs at that time.

11 Are you aware that at the time Major Ljubisa Vukasinovic was also

12 the local commander of Negoslavci, at the same time?

13 A. I didn't know that, but I did read that just now in these reports.

14 Q. I'm just going to digress now. I see, Mr. Vojnovic, that very

15 often when you testify you testify about something that you learned later.

16 What I would like you to do is, when you say something like that, if you

17 could please tell us when you heard it. But it's all right. Yes, let's

18 go on, let's go on. It's not a problem.

19 I see that you followed the testimony of other people and that you

20 have information that you acquired later, and this is something that

21 always needs to be told.

22 A. Yes, I did follow the testimony. I also have some notes. I don't

23 have them with me, but I do have them.

24 Q. At the time did you hear that in Negoslavci, in Vukovar, and at

25 Ovcara on that 20th of November, there were also certain officers from the

Page 9079

1 security administration and from the security organ of the 1st Military

2 District? I'm specifically talking about the 19th and 20th of November.

3 Did you hear that at that time?

4 A. I couldn't really be certain about that -- I mean, I didn't see

5 them.

6 Q. I see that you followed the trial, but don't tell me that you

7 heard that during the trial. But later, subsequently during those days,

8 did you hear those names and were these names familiar to you, such as

9 Kijanovic, Tomic, Bogdan Vujic, Muncan --

10 A. Vujic Bogdan is a name familiar to me. Muncan too. The others I

11 don't know. Vujic also I'm aware of. It's a name that is familiar to me.

12 Vujic is known to me from some testimony.

13 Q. Please tell me -- I mentioned, besides line, up there, 53, besides

14 Kijanovic, I also mentioned Vujic --

15 THE INTERPRETER: Line 55, interpreter's correction.

16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Slavko Tomic. I also mentioned the surname Muncan and you said

18 you knew that. Did you hear that name then?

19 A. I heard of the Muncan last name, I don't know in what context. As

20 far as Bogdan Vujic is concerned, I read about him from some testimony. I

21 don't know which one. I don't know before which court, at which organ.

22 In any case, I heard that he had testified somewhere.

23 Q. At that time during the meetings at the Negoslavci command, did

24 you see then-Colonel Nebojsa Pavkovic?

25 A. I saw him once in the OG South command.

Page 9080

1 Q. At the time, did you have information that he was included in the

2 negotiations on the surrender of the Mitnica group and also in the

3 evacuation of the civilians from Vukovar?

4 A. I learned that later and I saw him, that he was at Ovcara before

5 the Mitnica group left, before they were taken to Mitrovica.

6 Q. So on that day - we won't say which day - but on the day that the

7 Mitnica group was leaving, on that day, the hangar in the morning, that's

8 when you saw Nebojsa Pavkovic there at Ovcara. Is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Just one more question on this topic. How far was your Negoslavci

11 command post from the command post of the Guards Brigade or, rather, the

12 OG South command post?

13 A. I think that it was 1 to 2 kilometres at the most.

14 Q. Thank you. We're moving to the next topic. I'm going to ask you

15 a couple of questions now about the Mitnica group evacuation. We

16 presented considerable number of written exhibits and there were quite a

17 number of testimony that the Mitnica group was accommodated in the

18 afternoon on the 18th to the Ovcara hangar and that they left the hangar

19 on the 19th in the morning. But -- well, you've already said that you are

20 not so good with the dates, so we are going to move on.

21 You said that you could have received that assignment either from

22 Mrksic or from Panic. Is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Just one moment. Can you please take the operations diary --

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is Exhibit 371.

Page 9081

1 Q. I would just very briefly like to look at the first page of that

2 exhibit.

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It's all right if the witness doesn't

4 have a copy. Perhaps we can just look at it on the screen. Could we just

5 look at the first page of the diary. Can we please zoom in on this? The

6 lower portion of the page, please. There.

7 Q. This is your brigade's operations log. Right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. One thing I want to know about - we haven't heard a great deal

10 about that - column number 4. It reads: Signature, received - as far as

11 I can see - recipient's signature and sender's signature. I think that's

12 what it says.

13 A. Yes, yes.

14 Q. So what sort of information is entered here into this column

15 number 4 of the operations log?

16 A. Well, it's self-explanatory, isn't it? Whoever enters a

17 particular piece of information into the operations log is someone who

18 forwards the information, and whoever was on duty was supposed to enter

19 it.

20 Q. I personally - tell me if I am wrong --

21 A. Very well.

22 Q. I think the information entered here is the information provided

23 by the person who informs the duty officer about whatever information is

24 supposed to be entered. We have your name in several different places. I

25 suppose the information came from you; it wasn't that you entered the

Page 9082

1 information or recorded it?

2 A. Well, yes. There's somebody providing information and there's

3 somebody recording information.

4 Q. So here we see the name of whoever provides information to whoever

5 keeps the log. Right?

6 A. Yes, that's right.

7 Q. That's fine. So much for the log. We've all seen enough of it

8 and we'll be glad to see the back of it, in a manner of speaking, and I

9 suppose the same applies to you.

10 I do want to know something else, though. You were asked by both

11 Mr. Moore and Mr. Vasic about Captain Karanfilov. I'm talking about the

12 18th, I'm talking about the Mitnica group, I'm talking about their day, as

13 it were, when they arrived. You said you didn't know him at the time, you

14 didn't know if he was there or not. And then Mr. Vasic asked you

15 yesterday, he confronted you with your own statement from the Novi Sad

16 investigation. This might have been the person you saw back then -- well,

17 I'll move on to something else because there's something else I want to

18 ask you about.

19 I want to know about some facts you stated at the Belgrade trial.

20 Would you have issued an order to Vezmarovic to take orders from

21 Karanfilov? That is what I really want to know, and you provided a very

22 specific answer at the Belgrade trial to this one. Therefore, could you

23 please go back to your statement -- or your evidence, dated the 25th of

24 November, 2004.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] For the benefit of my learned friends

Page 9083

1 and the Chamber, the reference is the 25th of November. The English

2 reference is page 2, line 32, third paragraph from the bottom up.

3 Q. And for you, Witness, the B/C/S reference -- or rather, the

4 reference in our language -- just a minute, please. Page 2, sir. I was

5 instructed by the Chamber the last time around not to read the question.

6 It says: "Presiding Judge," ten lines from the bottom up, just by

7 way of an example, but the Presiding Judge is here confronting you with

8 the statement of another witness and we have different rules governing our

9 procedure here. It's not the same as the rules that apply back where we

10 come from.

11 I'll just read your answer: "I did not know Captain Karanfilov

12 either; that is for sure. I only knew Vukasinovic and I may have seen him

13 at some meetings."

14 "Presiding Judge --" I'm skipping the first sentence -- "Is it

15 true or not that you told Vezmarovic that he was to take orders from

16 Karanfilov or not?"

17 Answer -- your answer: "I did not say that to Vezmarovic.

18 "Presiding Judge: He says that you did and that is why I am

19 asking you, that is why I am telling you this."

20 Your answer: "As far as I can now remember, I did not say that to

21 Vezmarovic. I heard that Vezmarovic said that he only took orders from

22 Karanfilov.

23 "Presiding Judge: What did you hear?"

24 Your answer: "I heard that Vezmarovic said that he only took

25 orders from Karanfilov, as he was a security officer and that was a

Page 9084

1 military police unit.

2 "Presiding Judge: When did you hear this from Vezmarovic?"

3 Your answer: "I later heard this from someone out there that

4 Vezmarovic had stated that he would only be taking orders from the

5 security officer, from Karanfilov."

6 Let us now move on to page 7. That is the B/C/S reference. The

7 English reference is page 7, line 23. Your answer seems to be very

8 determined here.

9 "Presiding Judge: In the investigation procedure -- you also said

10 possibly it was I who told Captain Vezmarovic that he was to take orders

11 from Karanfilov."

12 Your answer: "I did not personally tell him that he was to take

13 orders. I later heard -- I did not hear that I told him this to do that,

14 but I only heard that he said that he would only take orders from

15 Vezmarovic -- or rather, from Karanfilov, him being a security officer and

16 that he would obey his orders."

17 Is that accurate? Did I read this accurately, the exchange

18 between you and the Presiding Judge?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you agree with your own evidence from the Belgrade Ovcara

21 trial? You did not order Vezmarovic to take orders from Captain

22 Karanfilov; rather, you said you heard this later on, that you had heard

23 him saying this. Right?

24 A. I heard him saying this, that he would be taking orders from organ

25 Karanfilov. I think he was a major at the time or something, from

Page 9085

1 Karanfilov. I don't remember actually raising this issue with him. I see

2 that Karanfilov is involved, so probably after all that happened. There

3 may have been some omissions or something, but certainly no additions.

4 Q. All right. Let us try to be as precise as possible. You don't

5 remember giving Vezmarovic an order like that, do you?

6 A. No, I don't.

7 Q. And let me add this for your information and also to corroborate

8 my own theory: Karanfilov was a security clerk in a battalion-level unit.

9 You will agree with me, won't you, that in view of his position he had no

10 authority to impart any orders to anyone at all. Right?

11 A. First I hear of him being a security officer in a battalion-level

12 unit. I, myself, believed that he was some sort of a clerk or something

13 from the security of OG South. I really didn't know his assignment.

14 MR. MOORE: Could I just ask my learned friend -- I know there's

15 translation of the word "clerk," and I've seen that on several occasions.

16 Our understanding that that word doesn't mean "clerk," that in actual fact

17 it means "staff officer." In English it tends to mean -- there's a rather

18 big difference, and that's the third time it's happened.

19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think it is up to Mr. Moore to have

20 this clarified in re-examination. When I say "clerk" that perfectly

21 corresponds with my information. Yes, of course, a staff officer is one

22 thing and a clerk is a different thing. But I think the word "referent"

23 is exactly the word used by the interpretation service. "Staff officer,"

24 that is a very broad concept and can entail a lot of different things, but

25 certainly this particular witness does not have any information about

Page 9086

1 that, and I believe we will be able to establish all these facts later on.

2 Q. Mr. Vojnovic, however, based on all the regulations that we looked

3 at a while ago -- you've seen those. You've given me all the answers in

4 keeping with those regulations. A security officer cannot impart any

5 orders to anyone from the military police. Right?

6 A. Following approval from one of the superior officers, yes, they

7 could. My approval specifically.

8 Q. Yes, that's right. Following your approval, a security officer

9 could, couldn't he?

10 Another simple question: A security officer from a superior

11 command conveying an order to the military police of a subordinate unit,

12 what would the military police company commander first be expected to do

13 upon receiving an order like that? What would be the first thing they

14 should do?

15 A. He should first inform the security officer. But it is very

16 seldom that assignments are given to the company without the security

17 officer's knowledge or the commander's knowledge or the Chief of Staff's

18 knowledge.

19 Q. I won't ask you any questions about the day when the large number

20 of buses arrived, but I will ask you about something else. However, this

21 is outside the scope of anything that you have been asked so far, so

22 please focus on this. I think you told Mr. Borovic today that you had had

23 some of your units attached to other units in the Sotin area. Right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Your duty and the duty of the command of OG South was to inform

Page 9087

1 the superior command about the killing or wounding of any of the members

2 of your units. Right?

3 A. Yes, precisely.

4 Q. If a soldier or an officer from your unit were killed I suppose

5 you would have to inform your superior command; the OG South command in

6 your case.

7 A. Yes.

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown

9 Exhibit 421.

10 Q. You will see a document come up on your screen shortly.

11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please just zoom in on the

12 upper half of the page, please.

13 Q. Mr. Vojnovic, this is a regular combat report of the OG South

14 command dated the 20th of November, 1991, 1800 hours. This was sent to

15 the command of the 1st Military District and to the SSNO cabinet. Right?

16 A. Yes.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we have page 2 of the same

18 document, please. The lower half of the page, if you can please zoom in,

19 where it says "paragraph 3."

20 Q. Sir, what we see here is information on those killed, seriously or

21 slightly wounded on the previous day from the previous report. Right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. All right. As for those killed, are there any members of the 80th

24 Brigade? I'm talking about the night between the 19th and the 20th, in OG

25 South. Please wait for my question. Please say it now. Do you see

Page 9088

1 anyone there or not?

2 A. No, none.

3 Q. Do you see -- just a minute, please. Thank you. No further

4 questions about this document.

5 At any rate, my question is -- well, let's try to tackle it this

6 way: Do you remember if within your brigade if any members of your

7 brigade were killed on those days?

8 A. No, none. I know what the total was of those killed throughout

9 our time there, throughout our time in Vukovar.

10 Q. But none of your soldiers were killed on those days throughout the

11 area covered by your brigade. Right?

12 A. That's right, none at all.

13 Q. Let's move on to the 20th of November now. I will try - this is

14 will no doubt be easy - to sum up what you say you saw in the hangar. I

15 can't help but observe that there are some discrepancies in your evidence,

16 even over the last two days. You arrive at the hangar sometime in the

17 afternoon. You stand outside the hangar for a while. Once everyone is

18 inside, you join them inside. The highest-ranking person you see there is

19 Major Ljubisa Vukasinovic. You ask him who these people are. He says:

20 These are people from the hospital. You then call for help. You say you

21 called for help even before you entered the hangar.

22 A. I'm not sure if it was before or after, but I did call for help.

23 Q. Two of your officers arrived, Vukic and Dacic, with a group of

24 soldiers. You tell them to go and speak to Vukasinovic, and the next

25 thing you do is you leave. You claim the whole thing took about 30

Page 9089

1 minutes, although you told my learned friend Mr. Borovic today that it may

2 have taken longer. Be that as it may, this was an attempt to sum up what

3 you, yourself, stated. Has that been your evidence over the last two

4 days, sir?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You were not outside the hangar at the moment the buses arrived,

7 but, rather, as the buses were already being emptied, and then the

8 gauntlet and everything else you went on to describe. So this is the

9 point in time when you arrive outside the hangar. Right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. As soon as you entered the hangar, and inside you saw Vukasinovic.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. This was after the last people from the bus were brought inside.

14 A. That's right.

15 Q. And you saw someone making some kind of list in the hangar during

16 the time you were there, and you saw that the rope was set up. Is that

17 correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. When you said that the rope was set up, you didn't explain what

20 that was. Was it to separate the prisoners from the other people? Was

21 that the purpose of the rope?

22 A. Yes, that was the purpose of the rope. It was used to separate

23 the prisoners from the members of the Territorial Defence.

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we move into private

25 session for a moment?

Page 9090

1 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Private.

2 [Private session]

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 9091

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 [Open session]

15 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. You testified that you don't remember -- or rather, that you did

18 not see Lieutenant-Colonel Panic at that time when you were in front of

19 the hangar but that later you heard from him - you probably followed his

20 testimony, as you say - that he confirmed at that time that he was in

21 front of the hangar. Is that correct?

22 A. I heard it from him directly, that he was there, I didn't see him,

23 and I also heard it from the man that was there.

24 Q. All right. Very well. I'm going to ask you something else now.

25 Do you remember - and I think I read that in some of your testimonies,

Page 9092

1 there were many of them so I cannot really recall which one - but do you

2 remember that at the time you saw an unknown colonel as he was leaving the

3 hangar in a Renault 4 vehicle and leaving Ovcara?

4 A. I did see a Renault 4, but it did not go out of the hangar. I saw

5 a Renault 4 standing there. I saw a military person in uniform, the

6 licence plates were Sremska Mitrovica plates, and he left.

7 Q. But that was a colonel by rank; is that what you said?

8 A. I think that it was a colonel, but I am not sure. He left right

9 away. He got into the car and he left.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think it is time for

12 our break now, and then we'll be moving to a different topic.

13 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Public session -- sorry, we are in

14 public. I was confused. Okay, so we will adjourn for -- oh, I'm sorry,

15 Mr. Weiner.

16 Mr. Weiner: Good afternoon, Your Honour, I am Phil Weiner for the

17 Office of the Prosecutor. We were advised by the Defence that they will

18 be spending at least another session with this witness, and then if you

19 add to that examination in chief -- sorry, redirect examination, that

20 should take most of the day. We have the next witness here. Since we

21 will probably be running most of the day with this witness, may I release

22 that witness until tomorrow morning?

23 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you, Mr. Weiner.

24 Mr. Lukic, can you confirm that timing?

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I can confirm that we will need more

Page 9093

1 than one session, at least for my cross-examination. We might even take

2 to the rest of the day. I have a lot of questions arising from the

3 questions of my colleagues, so in any case I think that it will not be

4 possible to begin with a new witness today, especially since Mr. Moore

5 also needs time for the re-examination.

6 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you very much.

7 Okay, Mr. Weiner, you may release the witness.

8 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

9 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Okay. We will adjourn now and convene at

10 1.30.

11 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.33 p.m.

12 --- On resuming at 1.33 p.m.

13 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Good afternoon.

14 Mr. Lukic.

15 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 [Interpretation] Before I continue, I just wanted to correct a

17 thing for the transcript. Page 66, line 10, there was my question which

18 hasn't been recorded adequately. The reference should have mentioned page

19 66, line 3, and instead what has been recorded was 663.

20 Q. I asked you about the colonel whom you saw leave in a Renault 4.

21 Timewise, did you see him leave before you entered the hangar?

22 A. I wanted to clarify something. I didn't tell that to Mr. Moore

23 either, and I apologise -- or to anyone else, for that matter. I told

24 this only to the chief of security when I gave my first testimony or first

25 statement, and that was that while the prisoners were entering the hangar

Page 9094

1 I looked up and in a distance, some 20 to 30 metres away, I saw a colonel

2 in a uniform standing next to a Renault 4. And he was observing the

3 struggle I had to get the prisoners inside the hangar. I approached him

4 immediately, I addressed him. I said: Colonel, sir, what is this all

5 about? Please help me to get those people inside the hangar. He didn't

6 say anything. He got in the car, in that Renault 4, and left. He was

7 somewhat short. I don't know his name and I don't remember having seen

8 him ever afterwards. That's what I stated the chief of security when I

9 gave my first statement, but he hasn't entered that into it although I

10 signed it. I also mentioned that that person resembled him and then he

11 jumped up to his feet and said: "No, no, I wasn't there."

12 Q. You said that the plates were those from Sremska Mitrovica. Isn't

13 that correct?

14 A. Yes, from Sremska Mitrovica.

15 Q. When you said that the person resembled a person to whom you gave

16 the statement, you mean Mr. Gajic at the security directorate?

17 A. Yes, I was joking somewhat. He was of the same height but he

18 didn't look like Mr. Gajic.

19 Q. And you also mentioned that in your testimony at the Belgrade

20 Ovcara case?

21 A. The way I phrased it here and now, no.

22 Q. Yes, that is correct. This is the first time I've heard some of

23 the details and I believe this is new for all those in the courtroom.

24 A. Yes, this is the first time they can hear it. I didn't know the

25 man, and Colonel Galic [as interpreted] did not include that in the

Page 9095

1 statement and I basically kept silent from then on, although I shouldn't

2 have.

3 Q. And because he failed to enter that in the statement, you thought

4 it necessary to avoid mentioning the fact ever after, and you did provide

5 additional statements subsequently.

6 A. Yes, more or less that is as you described.

7 Q. You used to go to the command of OG South and the Guards Brigade

8 to meetings and you don't remember having seen him there?

9 A. No. The only way I remember him is the way I described him; a

10 thin, short man.

11 Q. Thank you. We heard testimonies here that there was some other

12 lieutenant-colonels and colonels at that time during the afternoon and

13 that some senior officers came from the security directorate as well. Do

14 you remember seeing anyone else of that approximate rank?

15 A. No, I didn't see anyone with any rank. I kept repeating, and I

16 probably overdid it, that I saw Vukasinovic and another group of people

17 without any hats but in proper uniform, although I don't know who they

18 were.

19 Q. Thank you. Just one more question before we go into the hangar,

20 so to say. When you were leaving the hangar and leaving Ovcara, the buses

21 that had been there, did they leave when you left for Ovcara?

22 A. They left one after another. They were parked on the road closer

23 to the western part of the hangar, but I didn't see them when I was

24 leaving the hangar.

25 Q. Yes. I'm interested in the part when you left Ovcara.

Page 9096

1 A. I didn't see them anymore.

2 Q. As regards your leaving Ovcara, when you came out of the hangar

3 did you see any pit with any corpses next to the hangar?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Did you see a tractor in front of the hangar?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Or a backhoe loader?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Let us now move into the hangar itself. There is Vukasinovic,

10 there is the rope, there is the person compiling the list. You've

11 described those in detail. Then Vukic and Dacic came and they report to

12 Vukasinovic, and then you leave.

13 A. They went to see Vukic; he was the group commander.

14 Q. I wanted to read out a portion of your testimony of two days ago

15 in the same context. That is page 8845, the transcript of the 15th of

16 May.

17 [In English] "They arrived headed by reserve Captain Vukic. He

18 arrived with 15 or 20 men. There were no military police. Perhaps some

19 of them did have military police belts on, but they were not actually the

20 military police because Vezmarovic at that time was still in Sremska

21 Mitrovica."

22 [Interpretation] According to your testimony on the first day

23 here, the 15th, when you testified in chief, when you came to the hangar,

24 there was no Vezmarovic to be seen, neither -- nor was Mr. Dragi

25 Vukosavljevic there, your chief of security. The only person you could

Page 9097

1 see there was Ljubisa Vukasinovic. Is that correct?

2 A. Yes. At the first moment I saw Vukasinovic only.

3 Q. And when you gave your statement to the OTP investigators, the

4 investigators gave you your statement before the military court. You had

5 no corrections to make, apart from the fact that you failed to mention

6 Mrksic. That is what can also be seen in your statement given to the OTP.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. When you testified in the proceedings in Novi Sad before Judge

9 Alimpic, you were also faced with your statement given to the military

10 court and you said that you stood by it in full. Do you remember that?

11 A. Yes, I do.

12 Q. Mr. Borovic referred you to that statement on several occasions,

13 but I need to go back to it yet again. Please could you take your

14 statement given before the military court. Page 3 in the English, line 9,

15 this is what you said before the military court. I'm reading from the

16 bottom part.

17 "In the hangar there were those for whom I thought were

18 paramilitaries, perhaps around 20 of them." And today -- yesterday you

19 explained that there were more. "They were guarding those in the hangar

20 and they were all armed. I did not particularly notice that anyone in the

21 hangar was maltreated except when somebody recognised someone, they would

22 approach them and utter a threat or use abusive language, but nothing more

23 than that, at least while I was there."

24 I'm interested in the following portion in particular: "I warned

25 the men in the hangar to treat correctly the people they referred to as

Page 9098

1 their prisoners of war and not mistreat them, stressing that they should

2 take care of how they treat them and behave towards them. After the

3 warning I gave in the hangar, I did not notice that there was any

4 mistreatment anymore."

5 That's what you stated then. Does this jog your memory that back

6 in 1998 you probably remember those events better than you do today, and

7 that is that you actually spoke to those TO members?

8 A. I don't know who I spoke with, but each new testimony jogged my

9 memory, I would remember additional things, and I thought it necessary to

10 mention here that after what I saw in front of the hangar and after what I

11 realised they were doing, I warned them not to mistreat them any further.

12 Q. A few lines further down: "At that time in the hangar or outside

13 of the hangar I saw no other regular units of the JNA or any of its

14 members. I only saw those men who I judged were some kind of paramilitary

15 army, given the clothes they had on. None of them had either JNA uniforms

16 or cap," and so on and so forth.

17 In the subsequent statements, you confirmed that there were some

18 additional JNA people there; and then back in 1999 you stated that you saw

19 no one from the JNA in the hangar. Is that so?

20 A. Yes, apart from Vukasinovic.

21 Q. But in this statement you don't mention Vukasinovic, Dacic, Vukic,

22 or anyone else. You remembered that later.

23 A. I never failed to mention Vukasinovic. He was the only one that I

24 could recognise. I have always claimed that he was there.

25 Q. So as not to waste anymore time, perhaps during the break you

Page 9099

1 could go again through your statement to the military court, and there is

2 not a single mention of Vukasinovic there.

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps Mr. Moore could corroborate

4 that as well.

5 MR. MOORE: We don't corroborate that. We have, actually, a

6 reference.

7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I believe this will be clarified in

8 redirect. I don't think I saw any mention of Vukasinovic in this

9 statement, but then again, I may be wrong. Perhaps Mr. Moore will deal

10 with this in his redirect.

11 Q. In this statement given to the military court, did you ever

12 mention that you asked for some assistance?

13 A. I don't remember. The only way for me to know is to go back and

14 read the whole thing. That was given in 1998. I don't remember having

15 said that, but I did ask for assistance and it is certain that Vukasinovic

16 was in the hangar. I'm absolutely certain of that.

17 Q. All right. One step at a time. Mr. Vojnovic, I need to describe

18 our position here. Based on the information we have, together with the

19 OTP, as regards Mr. Vukasinovic, he did indeed state that when the last of

20 the buses arrived he was there. He said so himself, so I'm not trying to

21 deny the fact whether Vukasinovic was there at the time when the buses

22 were there, but I'm just trying to point out that you failed to mention

23 that.

24 A. Yes, I -- perhaps I may have omitted.

25 Q. There are some other facts that they be disputed, and I wanted to

Page 9100

1 discuss that as far as Major Vukasinovic. You described the people you

2 saw with Major Vukasinovic and you said they were wearing M-77 uniforms

3 but you couldn't tell whether they were soldiers or officers, but those

4 were standard-issue uniforms for both file and rank.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Do you remember Vukasinovic, was he wearing the same uniform?

7 A. I think he had the same uniform.

8 Q. You said that he didn't have a cap.

9 A. He didn't.

10 Q. But that he wore this M-77 uniform.

11 A. I believe so. I believe it was M-77 or whether it was a

12 combination of two types of uniforms, I don't know.

13 Q. You see, Mr. Vojnovic, some facts are particularly important. If

14 you don't know, please state so. What's important to me is that you did

15 see Ljubisa Vukasinovic. As you say, you exchanged a couple of words with

16 him. My question is: Was he wearing the same kind of uniform as the

17 persons surrounding him? Can you see the image in your mind's eye?

18 A. I can't be 100 per cent certain. I can't commit.

19 Q. Yet you remember exactly what the people around him were wearing.

20 Right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. But you don't know what he was wearing?

23 A. I don't know. I can't remember. You're pressing me on this,

24 but --

25 Q. Fine. Let's move on. Yesterday you told Mr. Vasic that you had

Page 9101

1 requested officers from your command in Negoslavci, two officers, as you

2 specified, and some soldiers, because you know -- you knew that Vezmarovic

3 was away at the time. Isn't that what you said?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You told Mr. Borovic today that you thought that later on Dragi

6 Vukosavljevic returned with Vukic and Dacic. They came. Right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You do remember that -- or is that what you told Mr. Borovic? Do

9 you remember him coming with those two men?

10 A. I don't remember for sure, but I think he came with them. It's

11 because the vehicle, I don't know who he possibly could have come with.

12 [Defence counsel confer]

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Let's look at these facts, what you find in the hangar. In the

15 Belgrade Ovcara trial, page 67 of the first day of your testimony, the

16 24th of November. Page 67. The English reference is 97, page 97. The

17 following words in English:

18 [In English] "... what I could."

19 [Interpretation] I will now read out to you a slightly longer

20 portion. Have you found 67?

21 A. No.

22 Q. The 24th.

23 A. Where?

24 Q. In Belgrade.

25 A. I'm not quite there yet.

Page 9102

1 Q. [In English] "I did what I could."

2 [Interpretation] In English, it says, "I did what I could."

3 I'm not sure where on the page that should be.

4 A. And our reference is --

5 Q. Our reference is 67, page 67, the 24th of November. You got that?

6 A. Just about.

7 Q. It's a large portion, but I'll be asking you questions as I go

8 along, because I think there are a couple of discrepancies in relation to

9 your testimony of two days ago.

10 "I did what I could. Later on what I saw around the hangar was

11 some people coming and going. I don't know now how. I can't say for sure

12 how Dragi Vukosavljevic happened to be there, this captain of mine. He

13 was the chief of security, and while this commotion was going on, he

14 proposed -- or rather, he asked whether we should do anything else and

15 asked what it was that we could do to help those people to keep them from

16 being mistreated. We agreed that a military police detachment should

17 come, one of ours from Negoslavci; a Pinzgauer with seven, eight, or nine

18 soldiers, I don't know how many exactly. However, in the meantime,

19 Captain Vezmarovic had arrived."

20 Here is where I'll pause. You agree with me that your testimony

21 in Belgrade is not consistent with what you told us here two days ago. In

22 the Belgrade trial, it comes across that you are conferring with him:

23 Should we call a military police unit or not? And at this point in time

24 Vezmarovic arrives. That's what you said in Belgrade. Right?

25 A. I was there with Dragi. We talked about this. We did ask for

Page 9103

1 help to be sent. I don't know if Vezmarovic came first. I still think

2 Vukic was the first to come, but I can't be certain.

3 Q. One thing at a time, please.

4 A. I can't confirm or deny.

5 Q. Let's move on.

6 "Vezmarovic, I can't remember his name, but no matter. It's clear

7 who we're talking about. All right. When he came back from Sremska

8 Mitrovica, he was driving a group of prisoners, members of the Croatian

9 army, led by Filip Karaula. He returned to the command to report that he

10 had completed the task as necessary and that those people had been handed

11 over smoothly. Someone told him -- someone at the brigade command told

12 him that there was some sort of a mess happening at Ovcara, and he

13 immediately went there to see at his own initiative and out of curiosity

14 and also for reasons of self-promotion. He went there to see for himself.

15 This coincided with the very same thing that we were thinking, that there

16 should be a reinforcement, a military police unit, so there he was."

17 Further down: "In the hangar I saw that Vezmarovic put up a rope

18 separating those people from the group that had brought them there, so to

19 speak, with a rope. I saw that a desk was placed there. Someone was

20 making list. I saw that. Whether it was finished or not, be that as it

21 may, this is what I saw."

22 I'll continue reading, but let me first ask you about this. At

23 the Belgrade trial a year and a half ago, you describe Vezmarovic's

24 arrival, him putting up that rope, and you say you saw the whole thing

25 happen. In Belgrade a year and a half ago you remembered all these

Page 9104

1 things. I see that there is another discrepancy. Can you tell us now:

2 Were you, in fact, speaking the truth in Belgrade when you said this, that

3 you saw Vezmarovic arrive and put up a rope?

4 A. I did see Vezmarovic at Ovcara. I don't know if I saw him the

5 moment he arrived. I don't know who arrived first, again, whether it was

6 Vukic or he. Anyway, they were both there.

7 Q. Fine, but you will agree that there is at least a slight

8 discrepancy from your present testimony.

9 A. Well --

10 Q. Fair enough. Let's move on. You testified under oath in Belgrade

11 and the same seems to be the case now, but that was the way you remembered

12 things at the time. It's as simple as that. Let me move on.

13 "In the hangar I saw for the first time since I entered Major

14 Vukasinovic. Major Vukasinovic, he is from the Guards Brigade, Major

15 Sljivancanin's deputy then he was. He was standing at a distance from

16 that rope, or rope, whatever I should call it, about 10 metres away, and

17 he was watching what was going on. I approached him and asked him what

18 this was, where all these people were from, who was this and what was

19 going on, and he told me something, but now I really can't remember the

20 details of what it was that he said. I surveyed the situation a little

21 more and realised that things were back to normal. Some of those people

22 in there - what should I call them? - detainees, people, civilians, were

23 standing along the hangar wall. Some were actually sitting on the ground.

24 There was some hay, and some were sitting on the floor. I mean there was

25 some kind of order when Vezmarovic arrived, excuse me, in the hangar. I

Page 9105

1 thought, therefore, that there was nothing there for me to do, although I

2 could not understand at all how this could have happened and that I, as

3 the subordinate commander, had known nothing about it."

4 We all know that there's an audio recording of the Belgrade trial.

5 You spoke these words and you understand that you did, indeed, say this at

6 the trial in Belgrade?

7 A. Yes, I understand that.

8 Q. Well, the first discrepancy I can notice is you say you address

9 Major Vukasinovic. You don't know what he told you a year and a half ago,

10 and two days ago you tell us he spoke to you and he told you these were

11 people from the hospital.

12 A. Yes, indeed.

13 Q. What is it that jogged your memory in relation to this?

14 A. Well, events. I read reports from the trial. I read Major

15 Vukasinovic, who told me there and who stated that he knew that the

16 members of the prisoners would be surrendering or would be handed over,

17 that they were surrendering, not that they were being beaten but that the

18 TO people were interrogating them, or what should I know.

19 Q. So this jogged your memory that he told you these were people from

20 the hospital?

21 A. Yes, and this was confirmed by Lieutenant-Colonel Panic that he

22 knew that people from the hospital would surrender to the TO.

23 Q. I do believe I have to interrupt you, Mr. Vojnovic. Don't draw

24 your own conclusions based on what you heard, what another person told

25 you. Rather, please, if your memory is jogged by what somebody else said

Page 9106

1 about something that you remember because now you are giving us other

2 people's accounts and some of your own conclusions. If you remember

3 something based on something that you heard later, you may as well tell

4 us.

5 A. I heard later --

6 Q. Very well.

7 A. -- from Lieutenant-Colonel Panic that a decision was made.

8 Q. We know that. We know that.

9 A. You don't know that. Everybody seems to have known. Only we

10 didn't know.

11 Q. That's fine, but Mr. Moore has something to say.

12 MR. MOORE: All I wish to submit is a witness is entitled to give

13 an account of what he has been told by another person who may well be a

14 participant in what I would call the act. It may go to weight in relation

15 to the evidence itself, but it does not mean it's inadmissible.

16 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you for that, Mr. Moore. I think

17 you're right it's not inadmissible, but I think it's important for

18 Mr. Lukic to identify those parts which are direct memory and those parts

19 which are indirect memory.

20 So, please employee, Mr. Lukic.

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No, no. I just -- I mean, I think the

22 witness provided a far broader explanation than I wanted, a far broader

23 one, and that's what I asked him, what jogged his memory, what caused him

24 to remember that he was told this by Ljubisa Vukasinovic, but he didn't

25 remember that a year and a half ago --

Page 9107

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As well as his testimony and his

2 statement, and I still have all that written down in my notebook.

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. So you say it was from his statement, which I believe you read in

5 the newspapers, you understood that he told you that those were people

6 from the hospital?

7 A. No, he told me so on the spot that those people were from the

8 hospital, and this is something I read later on. His testimony, I mean,

9 what he testified.

10 Q. Please, Mr. Vojnovic, please. Did you -- I mean, when reading the

11 various testimonies of Ljubisa Vukasinovic, hear that he testified about

12 telling you that those were people from the hospital? Did you ever read

13 anywhere that he so testified when you now remembered?

14 A. Yes, I do remember that, but I'm telling you he informed me that

15 those were people from the hospital. Informed in the hangar. I may have

16 omitted that, but in all my further testimony, I kept pointing that out.

17 Q. Very well. Very well. In Belgrade on the 24th of November, 2004,

18 you testified for two days, for a full two days. Not a single word about

19 Vukic arriving at Ovcara. Not a single word. Right?

20 A. Yes, that's right. I just didn't remember at the time. If you

21 hadn't reminded me about the colonel today --

22 Q. So you remembered when you heard what Vukic's testimony had been

23 about. Right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you actually meet Vukic and Dacic? You say you met Vezmarovic

Page 9108

1 and Dragi Vukosavljevic. Can you just wait a minute, please. Did you

2 actually meet at any time before or after your testimony Svetolik [phoen]

3 Vukic?

4 A. I did not meet Svetolik Vukic in any way -- any way after his

5 testimony sometime.

6 Q. But that was before you came here to testify. Right?

7 A. No, no -- well, yeah, yeah, before this testimony, yes.

8 Q. You talked and he jogged your memory about all these various

9 points, about the exchange between him and Vukasinovic, that sort of

10 thing, and so on and so forth. Right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. But you never remembered that earlier on, did you?

13 A. No, I didn't.

14 Q. Just a minute, please. In answer to a question by Mr. Vasic

15 yesterday - the page reference is 8959 - you said:

16 [In English] "When help had arrived from the brigade command led

17 by Vukic, when I went inside the hangar, when I realised Vukasinovic was

18 there, he told me who these people were and then there were a group of

19 soldiers that was brought over, between 15 or 20 of them. I thought to

20 myself, here was a man from my support command. I supposed that he had

21 been given assignment. I offered him my help, and he refused."

22 [Interpretation] This was on page 8959 of yesterday. Do you

23 recall saying that like that yesterday?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Another correction: The page was 8959. And then you said

Page 9109

1 yesterday to my colleague Vasic that you offered assistance and that he

2 refused.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Yesterday, just three pages before that, I found -- just three

5 pages before that, page 8596, Vasic asked you -- [In English] "...

6 Vukasinovic if he needed any assistance." The page is 8956. Your answer

7 was: [No interpretation]. [Interpretation] So you gave two different

8 answers on the same facts.

9 A. No. I offered assistance and he refused. I didn't offer it

10 directly but I did it through Vukic.

11 Q. Your answer to Mr. Vasic was quite a definite one and this was

12 page 8956, decisive answer.

13 [In English] "Did you ask Major Vukasinovic if he needed any

14 assistance?"

15 [Interpretation] Your answer: [In English] "No, I didn't."

16 A. I did not ask the major directly. I sent Captain Vukic to him to

17 speak to him and ask him if he needed help.

18 Q. All right. Thank you. You explained that nicely to us. Let's

19 move on.

20 Do you recall that during the time you were in the hangar, whether

21 some people were taken to the side -- taken aside, people who claimed to

22 be JNA soldiers, they didn't even enter the hangar because they were

23 separated outside of the hangar. Do you remember anything like that?

24 A. No, I don't remember that. People were going in and out of the

25 hangar, returning. They were talking to somebody. I don't remember

Page 9110

1 anything like that.

2 Q. Very well. I have to go back to the transcript of the day before

3 again. Please don't mind that I am going so much into details. This is

4 important for both you and me so that we could establish the facts.

5 Testimony from two days ago, page 8845. It's not clear to me what

6 you answered in reply to Mr. Moore's question, which was as follows:

7 [In English] "Why did you leave the hangar?"

8 [Interpretation] Your answer: [In English] "First of all, I left

9 the hangar because I wanted to ask for assistance and security from my

10 brigade command. They headed -- They arrived headed by Reserve Captain

11 Vukic."

12 [Interpretation] I'm asking you -- now, Moore asked you why you

13 left and you said you went to summon assistance, but I see in your

14 testimony that you didn't go until they came. Is that correct?

15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the witness's

16 answer.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Would you now please tell the Trial Chamber -- please, could you

19 repeat your answer, it was not recorded, but could you please wait a

20 little bit. Can you please repeat your answer.

21 A. I really don't know where it was that I looked for Vukic. All I

22 know is what I told him once he arrived.

23 Q. Very well. Who was Captain or Captain First Class Vukic in your

24 command?

25 A. Vukic was the chief of the PNHBO in my command. He was a reserve

Page 9111

1 officer.

2 Q. Very well. And who was Captain Dacic?

3 A. Dacic, yes, Dacic. Yes, I can't remember his Christian name. He

4 was, I think, an artillery desk officer in the command.

5 Q. He was also a reserve captain. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes, a reserve captain.

7 Q. Do you remember his face? Do you remember seeing him, that he

8 arrived?

9 A. Dacic, yes, I know what he looks like, but I don't recall seeing

10 him there.

11 Q. You said today that it's possible that your security chief

12 Vukosavljevic also came with them. Is that correct?

13 A. Yes. I do know that Dacic and Vukic were close, that they spent a

14 lot of time in each other's company, not just there but before that, too,

15 and that's probably why they came together.

16 Q. You will agree with me that Captain Vukic's arrival was something

17 that you never mentioned in any of the statements that are in front of

18 you. You didn't mention it to the OTP or before the military court or to

19 the Novi Sad investigative judge or in your testimony in the Belgrade

20 Ovcara case. Vujovic you mentioned for the first time now following

21 Vukic's testimony which you heard. Is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Since yesterday and the day before, I am not counting, but you

24 really mentioned the name of this Vukic 15 times or more. I obviously

25 think that, for you, you consider that to be an important fact, to mention

Page 9112

1 him here.

2 A. That's right. The man came in compliance with a summons, an

3 order.

4 Q. So how do you explain the fact that you never remembered this man

5 before now?

6 A. I didn't remember him. Just like perhaps there's some other

7 details that a person might not recall. I really didn't remember that.

8 Q. But you knew all the details of his testimony in the Belgrade

9 Ovcara trial besides this dialogue with Vukasinovic.

10 A. Well, not really. It was just a small article and he explained

11 about what I was talking about.

12 Q. It would mean a lot to me if you were to tell me in which

13 newspaper you read that.

14 A. Well, I will take it upon myself to send that article clipping to

15 you.

16 Q. Thank you. I would be very grateful.

17 And you further assert that you sent Vukic to Vukasinovic and that

18 you then left and that they later, as you testified on the first day, told

19 you after a couple of days at the command that Vukasinovic told Vukic that

20 he was free to go and that he then practically left.

21 A. Yes, that he had no assignment for him.

22 Q. Went back to the command. Is that right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now I'm asking you this: You ordered that assistance be sent to

25 you. This assistance arrived. And you ordered Vukic to report to

Page 9113

1 Vukasinovic. Please tell me: Did you order Vukic to return once

2 Vukasinovic allegedly told him that there was nothing for him to do, or

3 did Vukic come on his own initiative?

4 A. No. When actually Vukasinovic ordered him that he was free to

5 return to the unit.

6 Q. Ordered him?

7 A. This man asked him if he had an assignment for him. He said, no,

8 he didn't have an assignment. Again he asked him: Can I return to the

9 unit? And this man said, yes, you can, so he returned to the unit.

10 Q. Very well. What was your order then? That assistance needed to

11 come to help with the security? That was your order. Vukic came in

12 compliance with your order.

13 A. Yes. The order was carried out, order was established, the

14 prisoners entered the hangar, so there was no longer any need for him to

15 stay there.

16 Q. But did you issue him an order to go back? You ordered him to

17 come, so who can order him to go back? Who can tell him to go back other

18 than the person who issued the order?

19 A. Well, at this point Vukasinovic was the most senior-ranking person

20 there, so Vukasinovic could do that.

21 [Defence counsel confer]

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Very well. You claim that Vukasinovic was the most senior-ranking

24 person there. Is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 9114

1 Q. He had the rank of major and came from the superior command,

2 according to you. Is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. In the hangar, does he have a higher rank and position than you

5 do?

6 A. I did not stay in the hangar the whole time.

7 Q. At the point when you saw him and when Vukic came, did Vukasinovic

8 Ljubisa, have a higher rank than you, and we know that he did not, and did

9 he occupy a higher position?

10 A. No, he did not, but he was the only person in charge and was

11 tasked with bringing the prisoners to the hangar.

12 Q. Very well. Now I'm asking you the following: Were you present

13 when the buses were arriving in a column to Ovcara?

14 A. I was not present when they came in a column to Ovcara; they were

15 already parked there.

16 Q. Very well. You did not see who was at the head of the column and

17 who brought the buses to Ovcara. You didn't see that.

18 A. No, I did not.

19 Q. We heard from your testimony that you heard that

20 Lieutenant-Colonel Panic was there, and today we heard that there was also

21 some colonel there who left.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You cannot rule out that they were at the head of the column when

24 the buses arrived. Is that true?

25 A. Yes, I really cannot rule that out. I cannot say who was at the

Page 9115

1 head of the column.

2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the last part of

3 the witness's answer.

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Ljubisa Vukasinovic did not tell you that he was the person in

6 charge of the evacuation then. You didn't talk with him about that?

7 A. No, I did not. I read that in later reports, that he was

8 conducting this evacuation operation.

9 Q. So you don't know who brought the column and who was the person in

10 charge of the people who brought the prisoners to the hangar. You don't

11 know that, you didn't know it then when you were talking with Ljubisa

12 Vukasinovic, but this was something that you heard later while reading the

13 statements or testimonies. Is that correct?

14 A. Yes, by reading, and of course it seemed natural to me that he was

15 the only most senior-ranking person from the operations group.

16 Q. I'm now going back to the previous question. Was Ljubisa

17 Vukasinovic more senior by the nature of his post or was he lower in his

18 duties than you were in both of your posts? It's a simple question.

19 A. He's a man from the superior command.

20 Q. I entirely agree with you.

21 A. And I don't know how many times I've already said that.

22 Q. Well, let me ask you this -- very well. Who is your superior

23 officer in Vukovar in 1991 when you joined the Operations Group South?

24 What was your superior officer?

25 A. Colonel Mrksic.

Page 9116

1 Q. The commander of the operations group.

2 A. South.

3 Q. We all know what the principle of the singleness and unity of

4 command is. You know that principle.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And subordination.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Was Ljubisa Vukasinovic of a higher rank in relation to you by his

9 rank and position? Yes or no.

10 MR. MOORE: I object to that question. The witness has asked --

11 been asked this question probably ten times and he's answered it equally

12 ten times. He has a perception of it. And in my submission Mr. Lukic has

13 had the answer many, many times. It's a question of the superior command,

14 and the question has been asked so many times.

15 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: I think it has been asked a lot of times,

16 yesterday also by Mr. Vasic. So I think we have gone as far as we can

17 with the witness on this. You think you can take him still further,

18 Mr. Lukic?

19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it is probably clear to

20 you from the testimony of this witness how many times he mentioned the

21 name of Ljubisa Vukasinovic as the person who was the most senior person

22 there. I am repeating the question because I simply think that he's

23 evading to answer that question, which is very simple. Mr. Vasic asked

24 that about the commander. I'm asking him now: If that person comes from

25 the superior command, would he be more senior by post than he is?

Page 9117

1 Q. So is Vukasinovic more senior? I don't want to keep on with this

2 subject, but by position is he more senior than Colonel Vojnovic?

3 A. At that point in time I was not in the hangar. I was there for a

4 very short time. I could not take away his functions just because I was a

5 lieutenant-colonel. He had received an assignment, and he knows whom he

6 received it from, and he was carrying it out.

7 Q. Mr. Vojnovic, if the hangar is in the area of responsibility of

8 your brigade, the Ovcara zone, could you have thrown Ljubisa Vukasinovic

9 out? Yes or no.

10 A. No.

11 Q. If somebody, without being called to do so, comes to your area of

12 responsibility from whatever command, is it not your duty to call your

13 superior commander to say who is it that's arriving, who is -- who has

14 come? Is that correct?

15 A. Yes, that is correct. Secondly, he was obliged to stop and to ask

16 whether he could enter the area of responsibility. He had to have an

17 order to be able to enter the area.

18 Q. Is it not your duty to ask him if he had an order and to introduce

19 himself to you; and if he refused to do that, then you would need to call

20 your own commander. Is that correct?

21 A. He entered the area of responsibility using his position and the

22 position of the superior command without any permission at all. I said

23 that yesterday. Anyone who enters the area of responsibility without the

24 knowledge takes upon himself the risk for all that happens in that area.

25 Q. And whose function is it to protect the area of responsibility if

Page 9118

1 anyone can enter without the knowledge of the person who is responsible

2 for guarding that area of responsibility? Let's ask that.

3 A. Well, you know how it is: While combat operations are being

4 carried out the area of responsibility is known. He wouldn't have entered

5 had combat operations been going on. This was a peaceful time, movement

6 was free. All he needed to do was to stop and say: All right. We're

7 coming in to do this and this.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Would you kindly slow down, please.

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. You gave us that example with somebody's front yard and a bomb

11 being chucked into somebody's front yard.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Anybody could just walk by and you don't know who they are.

14 A. Yes. They just throw the bomb over the wall, and you say, well,

15 it's not the fault of the person who threw the bomb but of the person on

16 the other side of the wall who failed to catch it in time and throw it

17 back.

18 Q. All right. Let's move on. It's up to the Court to judge both my

19 questions and your answers.

20 You, I mean in the hangar, or having come out in front of the

21 hangar, asked to your command to send some help and some security people.

22 A. Yes, this must be the umpteenth time I'm saying it.

23 Q. That was perfectly in keeping with your own powers. And when this

24 command was obeyed and when Vukic, as you say, and the soldiers came, you

25 returned to the command and you went to Mrksic's headquarters. Right?

Page 9119

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Fine. So you say you heard in Vukic's testimony or that jogged

3 your memory because Vukasinovic allegedly told him and that he then

4 returned to the command. Right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. We have heard evidence before this honourable Trial Chamber - I

7 will remind my friends, on page 8676 and on page 8686, dated the 11th of

8 May - that the two of them in fact returned together that evening with

9 Dragi Vukosavljevic and Vezmarovic. When all of them were withdrawing

10 pursuant to your order that Vukosavljevic then conveyed or on the order of

11 Karanfilov, we can discuss that. But we've heard testimony before this

12 Court, we've heard evidence that Vukic did not leave right away, as you

13 claim, after talking to Vukosavljevic [as interpreted] but he stayed there

14 until the end. That's what we've heard here. Would you leave that

15 possibility open?

16 A. I can't commit on either of these. Maybe he didn't stay for too

17 long, but then --

18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The witness trailed off and

19 we didn't hear him.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I read what I saw and what I said.

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. Page 95, line 6, my

22 question: "After talking to Vukasinovic ..." and it says "Vukosavljevic."

23 I will now repeat, I mean this question, because your answer was not

24 recorded.

25 Q. Hold on a minute, sir, Mr. Vojnovic. We have so many problems

Page 9120

1 with all these surnames that all sound alike. We've heard evidence before

2 this Trial Chamber that they returned together, when everybody was

3 withdrawing, including Vezmarovic's entire unit stayed all the way until

4 the end. Do you remember this as a possibility, that this is what they

5 told you or that this is what you heard later on at the command?

6 A. I can't commit on this 100 per cent. I know we did talk later on

7 and I heard the next day what Vezmarovic had told me, who had ordered him

8 to withdraw his troops from there. If he stayed there until the end with

9 him, Vukic or whoever you mentioned, Vukosavljevic --

10 Q. Yes, that's right.

11 A. Well, you see, I don't know if they were both with him.

12 Q. We've heard before this Court from a witness who is a first-hand

13 witness, if I may call him that, who says that he drove back together from

14 Ovcara with Vukic, with Dacic, with Vezmarovic, and the military police,

15 that they all came together once the hangar had been vacated.

16 A. So what's the problem? They may have gone together for all I

17 know.

18 Q. Well, there is an enormous problem, but that is up to some other

19 people to judge. My position is Vukic did not exchange a single word with

20 Vukasinovic. My position is Vukasinovic spent a very brief time outside

21 the hangar and then left. That is my position. That is why I have

22 confronted you with evidence that we heard in this courtroom that Vukic

23 stayed until the end, that he stayed on until the end. That's what I'm

24 telling you. What do you have to say about that?

25 A. I'm telling you that I saw Vukasinovic there. I'm telling you

Page 9121

1 that Vukic spoke to him, that he was given an assignment, and what

2 Vukasinovic responded to him. As for how long Vukasinovic stayed there,

3 that is not something I can say.

4 Q. But about Vukic addressing him and what Vukasinovic responded to

5 Vukic, this wasn't something you actually saw because you had left

6 already. You heard this from Vukic later on. Right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Vukic told you that he had left immediately, that he had left the

9 hangar immediately. You have been saying this for a couple of days here,

10 haven't you?

11 A. Yes, yes.

12 Q. And now I'm telling you that we've heard evidence -- there was a

13 witness - I'm not naming that witness but the Court knows who this witness

14 is - who claims this is not true, that Vukic stayed on until the end. And

15 not a single word about Vukasinovic. Not a single word. All I'm asking

16 you is: Is it possible that Vukic stayed on until the end?

17 A. I really can't say. I read his statement and that's what I said

18 here.

19 Q. So you read his statement. You believed his statement in its

20 entirety. It is based on this, that you are telling us that this is what

21 happened because this is something you read in the papers. Right?

22 A. I read this in the papers. I talked to Vukosavljevic, and he

23 confirmed that Vukic had been there with him. As to when they returned, I

24 don't know.

25 Q. Well, I don't think there will be any objections from Mr. Moore as

Page 9122

1 far as this is concerned: Vukosavljevic has claimed before this Court

2 that they returned together late that evening.

3 A. That's what I'm telling you: I don't know when it was that they

4 returned.

5 Q. We have an entry into the log. It says about 2230 hours, but

6 we'll discuss that some other time.

7 I'll move on to my next set of questions. That's why I'm checking

8 the time.

9 Mr. Moore asked you on day one whether on that particular evening

10 - and I'm talking about the 20th of November - you spoke to Vezmarovic or

11 Vukosavljevic. On page 8853, the 15th of May this year, you answered the

12 question in the following way:

13 "Q. [In English] Did you that evening speak either to Vezmarovic

14 or Vukosavljevic about what had happened at Ovcara after you had left?"

15 [Interpretation] Your answer -- hold on a minute, please, sir.

16 I'll read the answer out to you to jog your memory.

17 [In English] "I think that we spoke briefly. Vezmarovic informed

18 me that he had already got the units ready to move, had them all packed,

19 and that Major Karanfilov came and told him that Territorial Defence --

20 actually, the prisoners should be handed over to the jurisdiction of the

21 Territorial Defence, in view of the fact that some government -- I guess

22 the government of Krajina was informed ..." et cetera, et cetera, et

23 cetera.

24 [Interpretation] My question to you now -- this was your answer to

25 Mr. Moore. Do you remember -- please don't try to tell us what other

Page 9123

1 people told you. Do you remember that evening -- first I'll ask you about

2 Vezmarovic. Upon your return, did you meet Captain Vezmarovic, the

3 commander of the military police company?

4 A. I think he reported that he had been ordered to go back from

5 Ovcara, that Karanfilov had ordered him this.

6 Q. One thing at a time, please. One thing at a time. Do you

7 remember talking to him, you, in person?

8 A. Well, like I say, I think - I think - that he reported to me.

9 Q. Very well. On that occasion, did he tell you that he had managed

10 to get everything under control and that there were now no problems at

11 Ovcara, as he was about to drive back?

12 A. I don't remember.

13 Q. But you do claim that he told you about Karanfilov. Did you check

14 who had authorised Karanfilov to be there in the first place? Did you ask

15 him that?

16 A. No, I didn't.

17 Q. What about the next day, the meeting the next day, with your

18 officers at your superior command? Did you tell them that Vezmarovic was

19 sent back pursuant to orders by Captain Karanfilov, although you said

20 major?

21 A. Perhaps major first class, I don't know.

22 Q. I'm asking you if you told your superior officers about what you

23 were allegedly told by Vezmarovic.

24 A. I'm sure the brigade officers were familiarised with this, were

25 informed about this, the next day. We heard about what had occurred.

Page 9124

1 Q. You're not listening to me. We may be getting a little tired

2 here. Not about the events. You told us about informing them about what

3 people had been saying, what you had heard, but did you actually inform

4 these officers about the fact that Vezmarovic had told you that he had

5 been told by Captain Karanfilov to go? That's what I'm asking you.

6 A. It's a detail that I don't remember, whether I in fact said that

7 or not.

8 Q. This leads me to conclude that information was exchanged between

9 Vezmarovic and Vojnovic, just the two of you, no entry in the log-book.

10 No other officer knew at the time about the fact that Karanfilov was the

11 person who had told Vezmarovic to leave. He told you and no one else.

12 This did not spread any further. Is that right? Is that right?

13 MR. MOORE: How can this witness answer that question, with the

14 utmost respect?

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'll try to rephrase; no problem.

16 Q. Did you hear from any other officer from your unit on that day

17 this same piece of information that had been conveyed to you by Vezmarovic

18 allegedly, that Karanfilov had given him orders to withdraw?

19 A. I think I heard that from Dragi Vukosavljevic as well.

20 Q. Well, you see, Dragi Vukosavljevic testified here that he heard

21 about this for the very first time in 2003. Again, did you hear the same

22 thing from any of the other officers or is it your submission that you

23 only heard this from Dragi Vukosavljevic?

24 A. As I've already pointed out, I heard this from Captain Vezmarovic.

25 I think if you'll look at this in terms of the chain of command, because

Page 9125

1 the military police is a technical body, and Vezmarovic was cooperating

2 very successfully with the security officers, I think he must have been

3 familiar, but there may have been another officer who told me about this,

4 too.

5 Q. What about that evening or over the next days? Did Vezmarovic

6 inform you, too, about the fact that Dragi Vukosavljevic had conveyed to

7 him your order to withdraw from Ovcara? Did Vezmarovic confirm that as

8 well?

9 A. I think he did.

10 Q. You said a number of times that you were in touch with Vezmarovic

11 and that you followed his testimony. We heard him in this very courtroom

12 a couple of days ago. He did not confirm before this Trial Chamber, he

13 could not remember, that he talked to you at all on the evening of the

14 20th. Is it possible that you two did not, in fact, talk that evening?

15 A. I cannot say for certain, but I think we not only talked but he

16 reported to me when he came, saying that he had left the Ovcara sector and

17 that the prisoners had been surrendered to the TO men.

18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we go into private session for a

19 second, please?

20 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Private.

21 [Private session]

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 9126

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11 Page 9126 redacted. Private session.

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 9127

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 [Open session]

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. We're going back to what I read later, what you told Moore on page

12 8853 regarding Vezmarovic. You said:

13 [In English] "Vezmarovic had already got units ready to move, had

14 them all packed, and that Karanfilov came."

15 [Interpretation] Did I understand you correctly that you stated

16 that Vezmarovic was ready to move when Karanfilov arrived? Did I read

17 your statement correctly?

18 A. I don't know how Vezmarovic interpreted that. There was nothing

19 much for him to get ready. He had two Pinzgauers with soldiers and

20 weapons. He didn't have any other equipment.

21 Q. You said that two days ago.

22 A. That's what it means, he was getting ready to go.

23 Q. When Karanfilov arrived?

24 A. When Karanfilov told him.

25 Q. Why was he getting ready to move when he was supposed to be there

Page 9128

1 for security?

2 A. He didn't get ready until Karanfilov told him.

3 Q. But two days ago you said something slightly different.

4 A. Well, it could be, but I don't know.

5 Q. Should I tell you why, my opinion?

6 A. Yes, go ahead.

7 Q. I assert that Dragi Vukosavljevic conveyed to him the order to

8 move out on the orders of Dragi Vukosavljevic. Dragi Vukosavljevic told

9 us that.

10 A. Dragi was sent from the OG South command post to convey the order,

11 and in the meantime Karanfilov arrived, so they kind of overlapped.

12 Q. Very well. You do not rule out the possibility that Vezmarovic

13 was told to move out by the chief of security of the 80th Motorised

14 Brigade, Dragi Vukosavljevic. You cannot rule that out.

15 A. No, I am not ruling it out, but publicly Karanfilov told him in

16 front of everyone why he was pulling out.

17 MR. MOORE: Again, I object to the question because the way it was

18 phrased and an inaccurate record of what was said in evidence. Now, may I

19 just find it for one moment.

20 "I assert that Dragi Vukosavljevic conveyed to him the order to

21 move out on the orders of Dragi Vukosavljevic." This is a question.

22 "Dragi Vukosavljevic told us that."

23 That was not what he told us. The sequence is wrong.

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I will find the reference during the

25 break from my cross-examination when Dragi Vukosavljevic said that it's

Page 9129

1 possible that he conveyed the information to Vezmarovic. I'm sure that

2 Dragi Vukosavljevic provided that answer in this courtroom. But let's do

3 it like this:

4 Q. Sir, you assert that you heard that Karanfilov said that in front

5 of everyone.

6 A. Publicly.

7 Q. Who did you hear it from?

8 A. From Vezmarovic.

9 Q. When did he tell you that, or did you hear that in his testimony?

10 A. No, no, not in his testimony. That's not when I heard it.

11 Q. Did he tell you later in your conversations or did he tell you

12 that that evening when he came?

13 A. I think he told me that evening, possibly that evening or the next

14 day when we talked about it, in any case, that he conveyed to him what it

15 was that Karanfilov told him there. Perhaps Dragi also told him that, but

16 I don't know whether it was done in the same way.

17 Q. You mean you don't know in what way, but perhaps he told him that

18 also.

19 A. I think so.

20 Q. Very well. Could you tell me one thing, please. We've heard

21 testimony here that in your brigade there was one chief of security and I

22 think six desk officers, I think six security desk officers. Do you know

23 if this is so? Do you know that situation? How many of them were there?

24 A. They were in battalions, the security desk officers, and Dragi was

25 the security chief in the brigade. I don't know how many of them there

Page 9130

1 were, I don't know if all the posts were filled, but in any case the desk

2 officers were in the battalions.

3 Q. Could a security desk officer issue a brigade in a battalion or a

4 brigade?

5 A. According to the expert line, he cooperated with them and he

6 coordinated their work.

7 Q. That is correct. He cooperated and coordinated their work. He

8 did not command. Is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we make the break

11 now? I would like to just go over my questions, and I hope to finish

12 quickly.

13 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

14 We will resume at a quarter past 3.00.

15 --- Recess taken at 2.56 p.m.

16 --- On resuming at 3.18 p.m.

17 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Mr. Lukic.

18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I looked at the transcript, and I

19 would like to agree with Mr. Moore that it was possible that Witness Dragi

20 Vukosavljevic said it was possible that he conveyed that information.

21 Q. Now, Mr. Vojnovic, we are going to move. I asked you in relation

22 to the information from Vezmarovic. Moore asked you about Vezmarovic and

23 Vukosavljevic. I'm going to ask you a couple of questions about the

24 informing of Dragi Vukosavljevic in relation to you in relation to what

25 you asked him to do, and you said how you sent him to Ovcara after that

Page 9131

1 meeting in the OG South command. And now, practically, you asked

2 Vukosavljevic to carry out a task, to inform Vezmarovic that the unit is

3 supposed to come back. Do you recall whether Dragi Vukosavljevic reported

4 to you that the assignment was carried out and that the military police

5 company was withdrawn in the spirit of your order?

6 A. I said that yesterday, so perhaps we can take whatever I said

7 yesterday so that I don't have to repeat myself. I don't know if the

8 Trial Chamber can do that. I have nothing else to say about the events

9 regarding OG South and the whole operation than what I said yesterday.

10 Q. Well, I understand you're tired. Your time here is almost over,

11 but I just asked you one thing, whether Dragi Vukosavljevic that evening,

12 on the 20th, and I'm speaking about November 1991, or the next morning, do

13 you remember that he told you that Vezmarovic -- that the military police

14 of Captain Vezmarovic came and that they returned in the spirit of your

15 order? This is what I'm asking you. Do you remember that? Yes or no.

16 Let's go on.

17 A. I really couldn't say one thing or the other right now.

18 Q. And do you remember whether you asked your chief of security at

19 all if he informed Vezmarovic that he needed to withdraw from Ovcara?

20 A. I think that he was given an assignment and he carried that

21 assignment out.

22 Q. And did he inform you about it later?

23 A. I think that he did inform me about that.

24 Q. Thank you. To convey your order that they should withdraw?

25 A. Yes.

Page 9132

1 Q. Thank you. And now, let's continue. I asked you in the beginning

2 and then we looked at that operations diary of your brigade and that

3 section 4. You said the person who received and who sent out the

4 information. We all know - and we don't need to look at the diary again -

5 that it says in the diary that information at 2230 hours, they were

6 withdrawn. In section 4 it states Major Jankovic. I think that Mr. --

7 Just one moment, please.

8 I see that I made a mistake. It states Premovic. In that section

9 it says Premovic. That is, as you said, this director of some enterprise

10 who was just trained but he was an officer, he was provisionally trained.

11 Who could have given that information to him so that he could have entered

12 it into the diary?

13 A. First of all, Vezmarovic, when he came to the command post in

14 Negoslavci, did not immediately go. He came before the time that is

15 stated there.

16 Q. That's what is stated there.

17 A. He brought in the weapons, the equipment - this is a couple of

18 houses away from the command - then he told them to go to the command. I

19 believe that he probably came to inform them. I don't know whether this

20 was Premovic or whoever making the entries, he asked him to enter that

21 particular piece of information, so Vezmarovic actually came to the

22 command before, to his post.

23 Q. So you assume that it was Vezmarovic who informed me about that?

24 A. Well, I assume it was one of those two.

25 Q. Or Dragi Vukosavljevic.

Page 9133

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Very well. I asked you before about the security desk officers in

3 your brigade. There was the chief and there were these who were there at

4 the units. This is something that Vukosavljevic said, too, and you said

5 that along the expert lines they could have managed the units but they

6 could not have issued orders. You said that earlier.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Does that principle generally apply for all the JNA brigades?

9 Does it apply for the Guards Brigade as a rule?

10 A. Yes, it does. Generally the security organ works according to its

11 rules of service for the security service, and the principle is the same

12 everywhere.

13 Q. Very well. Thank you. Now I'm going to move to another topic.

14 You were shown a document relating to the clearing of terrain and the

15 removal of bodies. This is Exhibit 400. You said how the -- the corpses

16 were taken away. Do you recall when you were in the town command, whether

17 there were any other corpses that were buried? Was it a period of

18 cleaning the terrain that lasted for a while during your stay there?

19 A. As far as I know, all the bodies that were found in the streets of

20 Vukovar or in any of the buildings were taken across to the area

21 around the brick factory. They were studied there by our forensics

22 expert, Stankovic. As for organising the burials, the person put in

23 charge of this was Colonel Basic, on behalf of the 1st Military District.

24 I don't know his first name.

25 Q. Do you by any chance remember that next to the Dubrava forest

Page 9134

1 there was a graveyard? Do you remember that?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Very well then.

4 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Mr. Lukic, the number of the exhibit does

5 not seem to be correct. It seems to be a map, Exhibit 400.

6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right. This is a document

7 tendered by Mr. Moore. There is a reference there to 400 bodies, but that

8 is not the exhibit number. But that is of no consequence right now. This

9 is the document that talks about the operation to clear the terrain, and

10 the witness has discussed that.

11 Q. [Interpretation] You say that you found out about what had

12 occurred at Ovcara over the following days from the local people in

13 Negoslavci and you informed your own superiors at this meeting that was

14 held.

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please go briefly into private

16 session -- or rather, I'll try to phrase my question in the following

17 way:

18 Q. Some of the officers -- some of your officers were at Ovcara, too,

19 right? Vezmarovic was there, Vukosavljevic, Vukic, Dacic, Novkovic, and

20 some others, too. These officers that we have been mentioning for a

21 couple of days now as having been at Ovcara, did they attend this meeting

22 at the brigade command where you informed everybody about what had

23 occurred at Ovcara?

24 A. I'm not sure that all of them were there. I'm sure that Novkovic

25 did not attend. He was not attached to the brigade command. And I don't

Page 9135

1 know about the others. Some people had information, some people didn't,

2 and this was an official thing for people to learn what had happened and

3 not to go on about that.

4 Q. So the conclusion was that this news should not be spread. Right?

5 A. People made their own erroneous conclusions, sometimes inaccurate

6 ones, or arbitrary ones. And this was done in a bid to keep this sort of

7 thing from being discussed, especially with the locals in Negoslavci.

8 Q. At this meeting did any of those officers who had sure and direct

9 knowledge of the facts of what had happened at this meeting say what they

10 knew about the facts?

11 A. I don't know if they said anything, but they probably talked among

12 themselves about what had happened.

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please briefly go into private

14 session?

15 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Private, please.

16 [Private session]

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 9136

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 [Open session]

12 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session.

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. I asked you about Vukasinovic - I'm about to wrap this up. Can

15 you remember where it was that you met Ljubisa Vukasinovic?

16 A. I think I met him at the command post of OG South. We weren't

17 personally introduced. I remember seeing him there. I remember meeting

18 him there for the very first time.

19 Q. Prior to your meeting inside the hangar at Ovcara, how many times

20 had you seen him prior to that, can you remember that?

21 A. I don't think I can. We used to go there every evening and I

22 really can't say.

23 Q. But you remember him as being at the operations group meetings,

24 don't you?

25 A. No, not specifically. He never took the floor or anything. Not

Page 9137

1 really. There were some people who spoke at these meetings, but I never

2 noticed him speaking.

3 Q. But he regularly attended meetings at the command of OG South.

4 Right?

5 A. I can't really say whether he came regularly or not.

6 Q. You remember him from those meetings at the command of OG South

7 and that is why you actually recognised him at Ovcara. Right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. I must tell you this, Mr. Vojnovic, Ljubisa Vukasinovic, in terms

10 of his position, was not a member of OG South. He never attended a single

11 meeting at the command post of OG South. Not a single meeting. What

12 would have to say about that, if anything?

13 A. Then I must have met him elsewhere. Sometimes staff members came

14 to the command post of OG South. I did find officers there who were not

15 members but who were staff members.

16 Q. How many times did you see him and what sort of meetings were

17 those?

18 A. I really can't say how many times or what those meetings were.

19 Q. You say he had the rank of major.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What sort of uniform was he wearing? Was it an M-77? You did see

22 him many times, didn't you?

23 A. Well, I don't know. Just before his departure for Belgrade, the

24 Guards Brigade were given camouflage uniforms M-something or other. I

25 forget. Was he wearing one of those or not? We didn't have those.

Page 9138

1 Q. Let me conclude this. You saw him many times but you don't

2 remember his uniform.

3 A. That's right.

4 [Defence counsel confer]

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Just a couple of questions to wrap this up. Sir, does the brigade

7 commander have sole command over all units from the composition of his

8 brigade?

9 A. Yes, for as long as these units are within the composition of his

10 brigade, that is definitely the case.

11 Q. Fair enough. Do you agree with me that the only thing this word

12 can possibly mean is that only the commander has the power to issue orders

13 to subordinate units?

14 A. Yes, or someone else with previous authorisation from the

15 commander.

16 Q. Only the commander can provide this sort of authorisation to other

17 officers from his own command to exercise command over any of the units

18 from within the composition of his unit.

19 A. That's right.

20 Q. Thank you very much.

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have no

22 further questions. I would also like to take this opportunity to thank

23 Mr. Vojnovic for providing all the answers.

24 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

25 Mr. Moore.

Page 9139

1 MR. MOORE: May I have the lectern, please? Mr. Lukic has got it,

2 and I'll try not to disgrace it.

3 Re-examination by Mr. Moore:

4 Q. I have only about 20 minutes of questions. Will you be able to

5 survive, do you think, or would you like a break?

6 A. Let's give it a go, yes.

7 Q. You've been asked many, many questions about your position as

8 being in charge or the commander of the 80th Motorised Brigade, and you

9 have said that a superior command had entered your zone of responsibility.

10 And what you've also said is that you could not control that area because

11 there were members of a superior command who had, as I say, entered that

12 zone of responsibility. Now, can you, in layman's language, please

13 explain what that actually means and why you were not able to become

14 involved. Are you able to do that?

15 A. Well, each command -- well, each brigade command is assigned an

16 area of responsibility. This is usually assigned by the superior command.

17 It is assigned in order for everyone to know who is responsible within

18 that -- within that area, if there are any combat operations underway, or

19 units are involved. This area of responsibility must not be entered by

20 anyone else without the unit in charge knowing about that. The superior

21 command can. There is no way we can stop that because they were the ones

22 who assigned the area to us in the first place. Whoever enters that area

23 must --

24 Q. Slowly, please.

25 A. Whoever enters an area of responsibility unbeknown to the

Page 9140

1 commander in charge of the area must assume responsibility for everything

2 that occurs in that area. We were not able to exercise effective control

3 over that section of the area, given the fact that certain elements had

4 entered the zone led by an officer from our superior command. Therefore,

5 we could not be held responsible for anything that occurred within that

6 sector where, in this particular example, this unit happened to be.

7 Q. So when we talk about Vukasinovic coming in, as you believed him

8 to be, in charge of the prisoners from the hospital, who was his superior?

9 A. Major Sljivancanin; that was my reading of the situation. He was

10 from Operations Group South, from my superior command.

11 Q. And what position did Mrksic hold within that equation?

12 A. Mrksic was the commander of OG South.

13 Q. And so when you were talking about members of a superior command

14 who had entered the zone of responsibility, your responsibility initially,

15 who was the superior commander?

16 A. If he entered my area or zone of responsibility, Vukasinovic

17 specifically in this case, then that would be his superiors; that is, the

18 OG South command.

19 Q. Thank you very much. Now, let us deal with one area that you were

20 cross-examined on by Mr. Borovic. Would you be kind enough, please, to go

21 to your witness statement that you compiled for OTP, and it is paragraph

22 42 which was only partially read. I'd like to deal with it all, please.

23 Do you have a hard copy there or is it on soft copy? Well, perhaps if I

24 read it, that -- we can move on quicker that way. It's paragraph 42,

25 please.

Page 9141

1 Now, I'm going to read it out and the interpreters have got a copy

2 and you can follow it. It reads as follows: "Considering my experience

3 as JNA commander and specifically my experience from Vukovar, I would not

4 have handed over the evacuees/prisoners to anyone but the legitimate

5 government. I certainly would not have handed over them over in a

6 situation like that. If I had not seen the officers of the 1st Guards

7 Motorised Brigade in the hangar, I would have assumed responsibility for

8 the situation. I would have inquired to establish why the

9 prisoners/evacuees had been taken there. I would have called for buses

10 and ordered that they be taken to Sremska Mitrovica because it would have

11 been more convenient for us if they had been in a place where we could

12 provide them with accommodation and food. If Mrksic had ordered me to

13 hand over the evacuees to the local Serb TO, I would have obeyed the order

14 on the condition that the evacuees were given no trouble. However, if I

15 had been there alone as the most senior officer, I would have seen to it

16 that the evacuees were taken to a safe place and would have sent the TO

17 away (I would have barred their presence)."

18 I've asked you questions about the superior command, I hope in

19 theory and principle in a way that is intelligible. Can I direct your

20 attention, please, to the sentence: "I certainly would not have handed

21 them over in a situation like that," and then the following: "If I had

22 not seen the officers of the 1st Guards Motorised Brigade in the hangar, I

23 would have assumed responsibility for the situation."

24 What was the significance in the command structure of the 1st

25 Guards Motorised Brigade -- the officers of the 1st Guards Motorised

Page 9142

1 Brigade being at the hangar? Why did that influence your decision not to

2 act?

3 A. I made the decision to not do anything at the time because I saw a

4 major, an officer, a security officer, there inside the hangar. I assumed

5 that he had probably been given the assignment because those prisoners did

6 not just come there of their own accord.

7 Q. Can we use a little more precise language, please. You are

8 referring -- or I am referring to the passage that you saw -- you said:

9 "If I had not seen the officers of the 1st Guards Motorised Brigade in

10 the hangar ..."

11 What is the significance of the 1st Guards Motorised Brigade

12 officers in the hangar in relation to your decision? Who were they

13 attached to? Who was their commander?

14 MR. BOROVIC: Objection.

15 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Mr. Borovic.

16 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] We are talking about a single

17 officer there. My learned friend Mr. Moore keeps saying "officers" of the

18 1st Guards Motorised Brigade. Nor did the witness actually phrase it in

19 this way.

20 MR. MOORE: I am just reading from the witness statement.

21 Q. Now, do you understand the question?

22 A. Yes. To me, the absence of Major Vukasinovic inside the hangar

23 was, I mean, an assurance that he had an assignment and that he would make

24 sure to carry it out and that nothing might possibly befall the prisoners

25 since he was actually there.

Page 9143

1 Q. We have, I believe, an error in the translation on 118:18;

2 "absence" as opposed to "presence." Is that right or not? It has a

3 fairly important bearing. Witness, I'll ask the question again. The --

4 sometimes we have -- can you please listen?

5 MR. MOORE: Mr. --

6 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

7 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Mr. Vasic.

8 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I can confirm to my learned friend

9 that this is, indeed, an error. It reads "absence"; it should read

10 "presence." As for the rest, I believe that the witness has said

11 everything himself.

12 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much for playing with a straight bat.

13 Q. May I just deal with one other aspect of that paragraph.

14 Mr. Vojnovic, could you just listen to the question, please.

15 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Mr. Vojnovic? Mr. Vojnovic, can you --

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I'm listening.

17 MR. MOORE:

18 Q. It just helps if you say "yes," because we're not sure if the

19 translation gets through or not.

20 A. Yes, yes, I'm listening to you..

21 Q. It's as if I'm talking to myself again.

22 Can I ask you, please, to look at paragraph 42. I want to deal

23 with the sentence: "If Mrksic --" starting: "If Mrksic had ordered me to

24 hand over the evacuees to the local Serbian TOs, I would have obeyed the

25 order on the condition the evacuees were given no trouble."

Page 9144

1 Do you see that?

2 A. Yes, yes.

3 Q. Now, can you just put that witness statement down for a moment,

4 please. Thank you very much. So the question that I want to ask you is

5 this: If Mrksic had ordered you to hand over the evacuees to the local

6 Serb TOs, you would have obeyed the order on the condition that the

7 evacuees were given no trouble. What do you mean by that, please?

8 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have an objection.

9 During the examination-in-chief and cross-examination, the witness never

10 said that Colonel Mrksic had, in fact, issued an order like that.

11 Therefore, I think this question, too, might confuse the witness. It is a

12 hypothetical situation that we are discussing here. The witness never

13 said that Colonel Mrksic had, in fact, issued an order for this unit to

14 withdraw and to handover to the other unit. My learned friend, I think,

15 is in a position himself to confirm that.

16 MR. MOORE: I don't, respectfully, agree with my learned friend,

17 but I will move off the topic and deal with it another way, if I may.

18 Q. Mr. Vojnovic, can you just set that statement aside for a moment.

19 Could you just set it to the side. Thank you very much indeed.

20 You're being asked various questions about why is it you did not

21 mention the name of Mrksic in what I will call the military

22 investigations/inquiries in 1998. Now, do you remember those questions

23 being posed to you?

24 A. I do. The investigation was led by a security officer, a colonel

25 at the time. I can't remember his name, but it's probably in the document

Page 9145

1 somewhere. This was the first document ever, and I stated to him and to

2 everybody else that I had informed Colonel Mrksic of what I had seen at

3 Ovcara, but this was not recorded. I don't know what the reason was for

4 this omission. I did not read the record myself right there, but the same

5 thing applied as applies to most interviews: The witness has read the

6 statement and hereby confirms its authenticity by signing the statement.

7 I only ascertained that at a later stage. Later on, every time I

8 testified or gave evidence, I established this and I asked that this be

9 recorded. The same thing applies to when I testified before Colonel

10 Gojovic, the then-president of the military court. And we were very close

11 to yet another omission of this fact, actually. We nearly omitted again

12 the fact that I had informed my superior officer, but I was adamant that

13 this should be recorded. And then Colonel Gojovic got it down again. It

14 wasn't my phrasing, it wasn't quite the way I had told him. And then this

15 problem dragged on and on, and every time I gave a statement, the same

16 thing happened.

17 Q. I would like, if possible, please, for you to be shown the

18 transcript of the military court in Belgrade. It's the transcript dated

19 the 28th of December, and the -- it should be 02188268 to 8272.

20 Now, what I want to do is -- I don't know if there's an English

21 version that can be shown to assist all parties, but I want to try and

22 deal with it in general terms really to deal with the structure of the

23 statement rather than the content of the statement. Now, have you got

24 that in front of you, Mr. Vojnovic?

25 A. Yes.

Page 9146

1 Q. 28th of December, 1998.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. I will try and deal with it in the following way: Really, there

4 is an introduction. It shows investigating Judge Lieutenant-Colonel

5 Radomir Gojovic, then there's various articles that relate to -- that

6 relate to rights, and then there's a topic saying general questions. And

7 you'll give a basic account of what happened in very general -- in a very,

8 very general way. No question, no answer, more in reported speech. Do

9 you see that? Now, I want you to go towards the end of that particular

10 interview procedure. In the English it should be almost the second-last

11 page, the penultimate page, and it should be -- I think it needs to come

12 back one. It should say: "Upon a question, a question, of the

13 investigative judge the witness stated the following ..."

14 That's bottom right-hand corner of the English translation 506.

15 Now, have you got that? There's: "Upon a question of the investigating

16 judge, the witness stated the following ..." Have you got that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now, I want to go below that one paragraph that deals with a

19 question, and then there are two entries. One should be starting: "At

20 the end ..."

21 Do you see that? It might be the next page in the B/C/S. It

22 should read: "At the end I would like to state that none of the

23 units ..." Have you got that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Thank you. So that's the first paragraph I want to deal with, and

Page 9147

1 then the second relates to a sentence starting: "When I came back to my

2 command post I met Colonel Mrksic ..." Do you see that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And it is actually the last paragraph. Can we just clarify, is

5 this the reference to Mrksic that you insisted on it being placed in the

6 transcript?

7 A. Well, yes, that is the one. Still, it was not recorded the way it

8 had been told by me.

9 Q. Well, thank you very much. We'll just leave that topic, if we

10 may. May I deal then, please, with the investigation or otherwise of what

11 happened at Ovcara. So can you please just put your mind to the period

12 after Ovcara. Now, we know clearly that a large number of people were

13 murdered in Ovcara. While you were in Vukovar, were you ever officially

14 spoken to by the military police -- officially spoken to by the military

15 police and a statement taken or inquiry made about what happened?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Thank you. When you left Vukovar, when was the first time you

18 were actually ever officially spoken to or any inquiry made about this

19 atrocity at Ovcara?

20 A. The first time, I think, was when the security service called me,

21 and that was also when I gave my first statement.

22 Q. And what year was that?

23 A. 1998.

24 Q. You have told us that you actually spoke to Lieutenant-Colonel

25 Panic. Spoke to. Now, is that right or not?

Page 9148

1 A. Yes, that's right.

2 Q. And when was it you actually met and spoke to Lieutenant-Colonel

3 Panic?

4 A. I met Lieutenant-Colonel Panic for the first time at the military

5 court when we both gave evidence. I didn't know that he would be there,

6 and he didn't know that I would be there. Panic probably testified before

7 I came along. I saw him leave. I realised that he had given evidence.

8 On our way back -- or rather, he drove me back in his own car. He was

9 still in active service, and he told me about those events. And that was

10 the first time I heard -- I first heard from him that he had been there,

11 too, and the first time I heard about a decision being taken by some

12 government that the prisoners from the hospital should be handed over to

13 the TO, to my great surprise.

14 Q. And in that conversation, did Lieutenant-Colonel Panic indicate to

15 you whether he had spoken to Colonel Mrksic about the transfer of

16 prisoners?

17 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

18 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Mr. Vasic.

19 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Objection. I do believe that this

20 subject, whether Colonel Mrksic talked to Lieutenant-Colonel Panic, was

21 never raised in the Defence's cross-examination of this witness. I

22 believe my learned friend, therefore, should not be allowed to re-examine

23 on this topic.

24 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: I think that's a fair comment, Mr. Moore.

25 MR. MOORE: I would respectfully submit it is not a fair

Page 9149

1 submission to make. There has been evidence about whether Panic was

2 spoken to. There was a reference about the conversation with Panic. I

3 objected at the time because there had been an objection by the Defence

4 that keep, as it were, that he should keep his mind, and his answers

5 specifically, on what he knew. And I -- because he was referring to the

6 Panic conversation. And I submitted to Your Honour that it did not mean

7 that it was inadmissible, that it went to weight. And in my submission,

8 that topic has been opened by the Defence in relation to a conversation

9 with Panic. So the topic has been raised, and I think it was raised, I

10 think actually on two occasions. The witness -- the witness, I seem to

11 remember, mentioned it on one occasion and, indeed as I say, I also

12 mentioned it in objection to the cross-examination.

13 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Okay. Please proceed, Mr. Moore.

14 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

15 Q. Can you please assist us, when you were speaking to Panic in the

16 car, did he ever inform you whether he had told or had a conversation with

17 Mrksic about the handover of prisoners?

18 A. Panic told me that he had been to a government meeting and that he

19 had heard there that the prisoners were to be handed over to the TO. When

20 he returned to his command post, he informed Colonel Mrksic that a

21 decision had been taken by them to have the prisoners handed over to the

22 TO and not to the JNA, whereupon Colonel Mrksic replied: Fine. If that's

23 what they decided, they may as well see what happens then. This was an

24 unequivocal reply to me by Panic, and I remember that clearly.

25 Q. Now, can I deal with Colonel Panic, because you also referred to

Page 9150

1 my learned friend Mr. Vasic that you had spoken to Mr. Vasic who is

2 Defence counsel for Mr. Mrksic. Have you been in contact or have they

3 been in contact -- perhaps I'll rephrase that. Have you spoken to the

4 Defence of Mr. Mrksic in relation to this case?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And how many times have you spoken to them?

7 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Mr. Vasic?

8 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you, Your Honour. I

9 must object. I think this was certainly not raised in cross-examination

10 or in chief, whether the witness actually talked to the Defence. I never

11 raised the issue. No one else did. I don't think this constitutes an

12 appropriate topic for re-examination. There is nothing to invoke.

13 Secondly, I never asked the witness about what Lieutenant-Colonel

14 Panic had told him. I never asked the question. I think this subject

15 matter is entirely outside the scope of any possible re-examination that

16 my learned friend may or may not have.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 MR. MOORE: I would submit that it is a relevant element. The

19 witness has said that there has been an attempt to avoid the name of

20 Mrksic being involved in any statements. I was going to ask the witness

21 whether in actual fact he had any conversation and whether, as far as he

22 understood it, there was an attempt to avoid the name of Mrksic when he

23 made the statement to the Defence.

24 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, what my learned friend

25 is trying to establish is no problem at all for me. Simple fact is I

Page 9151

1 believe this was never raised in chief or in cross-examination. What my

2 learned friend is invoking now about the statements made by Mr. Vojnovic,

3 statements given to these bodies, they were the subject of

4 cross-examination in a different way. But fair enough. We've heard the

5 witness. The witness says he tried to avoid mentioning the name in these

6 statements. However, the Defence's interviews or conversations with this

7 witness were never raised at any point in time during this witness's

8 testimony. Therefore, I do not believe that my learned friend is entitled

9 to ask these questions now.

10 MR. MOORE: Might I ask one question, and if the Court deems it

11 inappropriate, then I will move off to another subject.

12 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Well, I was going to allow the question,

13 Mr. Moore, because I believe it has not been raised in the

14 cross-examination but it has arisen in the cross-examination from an

15 answer of the witness. So for that reason I would allow the question, so

16 please proceed, Mr. Moore.

17 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

18 Q. When you saw the Defence, who was the person who facilitated the

19 introduction with the Defence?

20 A. The person who facilitated the introduction was a retired colonel.

21 I believe his name was Mojsilovic. He worked at the General Staff. He

22 summoned me and I met Vasic in the General Staff building at Banjica.

23 That was when I told Mr. Vasic about everything that we are now discussing

24 here. He asked me to write a statement for him -- or rather, he typed up

25 a brief statement. I remember clearly, it was in a corridor. He did not

Page 9152

1 mention the name of my commander at the time, Colonel Mrksic. I then

2 asked him -- I was adamant that the name had to be in the statement, and

3 he said there was no need for that and that I should just let him get on

4 with it.

5 Q. Can I just ask you one question before we move off this topic.

6 Did Colonel -- Lieutenant-Colonel Panic, was he involved in the

7 introductions between yourself and Mr. Vasic?

8 A. Yes. That was the first meeting, in Backa Palanka. Mr. Vasic

9 came with Panic. They asked me to come; I did. We met at the Fontana

10 Hotel. We didn't talk long, but this was what we discussed.

11 Q. Thank you very much. I won't go into it any further.

12 MR. MOORE: Now, could I ask, please, for Exhibit 422. It should

13 be a document that is the 21st of November, dealing with the

14 resubordination of TO units, and I think it's at about 6.00 in the morning

15 but I can't be sure of that.

16 Q. Would you be kind enough to look at the screen, and hopefully

17 you'll be able to see it.

18 A. I see that.

19 Q. You have been asked questions about this -- this is the

20 frontispiece. I would like to go to the second page, please, and to the

21 persons who it was addressed to, because you were asked whether you

22 received this and you said you couldn't remember, but you didn't see the

23 second page. So, it's from Colonel Mrksic. It's to do with the

24 resubordination of TO units, and those are the individuals to whom it was

25 sent.

Page 9153

1 MR. MOORE: I see there's an objection.

2 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Mr. Vasic.

3 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour. I believe my

4 learned friend knows full well that this document was not sent by Colonel

5 Mrksic. He's had occasion to hear this from numerous witnesses. I think

6 that is beyond dispute. He did not sign or send this document. I think

7 this question is leading the witness astray.

8 MR. MOORE: Well, I'm not actually adducing it for that reason,

9 and if that's the case, my apologies. But he certainly has been asked

10 questions whether he received this document, and all I'm trying to

11 establish is he's not one of the targeted recipients and that it's a false

12 point. All right.

13 Q. So can we choose, please, the -- is -- are any of those addressees

14 yourself?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Thank you very much.

17 MR. MOORE: Would Your Honour forgive me one moment while I just

18 search through my book.

19 Q. Yes. You've been asked many questions about previous statements,

20 court appearances, and accounts given. And the question is asked: How

21 can this Court rely on the accuracy of your testimony today when in actual

22 fact in previous occasions you have omitted facts and there are obvious

23 discrepancies? Why do you say that you are more accurate today than on

24 other days?

25 A. Because I obtained some information. I monitored -- or rather,

Page 9154

1 followed all the trials that took place in Belgrade. I followed all the

2 witnesses testifying in different situations and on different occasions.

3 Needless to say, it's been 15 years. One can't remember every single

4 detail. I may as well remember something to add tomorrow, something that

5 I can't for the life of me remember today, but that is just how it works.

6 Q. Thank you very much. You have been asked about the timetable of

7 the meeting which allegedly was between 5.00 and 6.00, which was cast in

8 stone by all accounts. Would you be kind enough -- or would somebody be

9 kind enough, please, to turn up a 65 ter document 573, and the number is

10 03271235 going through to 1236. Now, this is -- this is a daily combat

11 report and there's been reference to them. Now, can we go to the second

12 page, please, and perhaps the third or the end. Well -- no, that's fine.

13 Thank you.

14 Now, I want to just draw the Court's attention, if I may, to an

15 English reference and then I want to go back to the B/C/S because I can't

16 do both together, and it is at the very bottom and it relates to the

17 stamping, stamping for receipt, and the time is 6.55.

18 Now, can we please go to the B/C/S version. Now, this is this

19 same document. Combat reports, like everything else, are transmitted. Do

20 you know by what means they are transmitted? Is it electronic or by hand?

21 A. I think by hand. We did not work electronically there.

22 Q. Well, let's just see what is actually entered. What does the

23 first word show then, please?

24 A. I don't have that in front of me. I have page 2.

25 Q. Well, I've got the stamp on my screen. Have you not got a stamp

Page 9155

1 on your screen, which is enlarged?

2 A. Yes, yes. I see the stamp, yes.

3 Q. And do you see the box down below and we've got various times?

4 We've got 1855, 1720?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, what does the first time relate to? What is the word we've

7 got on the left-hand side? Can you assist us?

8 A. "Received." It's not perfectly legible, but "received" is what I

9 think it says.

10 Q. And what time is that?

11 A. 1855.

12 Q. So it certainly had to be sent before 1855. Can we look, then, at

13 the next word.

14 A. Yes. "Processed." This document was processed at 1920 hours.

15 Q. And then I think the next word is "submitted." Is that right?

16 A. Yes, yes, "submitted." 1930 hours to five past 8.00.

17 Q. Thank you very much. Could we look --

18 MR. MOORE: I don't need that document anymore. Could we look,

19 please --

20 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours. Your Honours, I think

21 it would only be fair, since my learned friend is dealing with this

22 document in this way: This document was raised in cross-examination, but

23 perhaps he should ask the witness what do these things mean? Who do the

24 codes mean? What do these words mean, "processed," "submitted,"

25 "received"? Who wrote these codes? Who sent this? Who received this?

Page 9156

1 Who processed this? Otherwise, we might just be left in the dark as to

2 the meaning of the entire box. I think it would be only fair to show the

3 witness and ask him if he knows.

4 MR. MOORE: I'd be happy to do that. Can we now go back so we see

5 the entirety of the document. Thank you very much.

6 Q. Now, this is a daily combat report. We've heard about it. And it

7 is sent to whom by Colonel Mrksic, do you know?

8 A. The 1st Military District.

9 Q. And when we see the box with all the titles, namely "received,"

10 "processed," "submitted," do you know the actual system for receiving the

11 combat report or not? If you don't know, we'll get evidence elsewhere

12 about it.

13 A. I think this is a document that was processed at the OG South

14 command, probably by the officer in charge of encryption or someone else.

15 That's when he received it, that's when he processed it, and that's when

16 he passed it on.

17 Q. Well, as I say, we'll leave that topic and we'll move on to

18 another and deal with it from perhaps another source. Can we just remove

19 that, please.

20 I have one final question and it is this: I go back to the night

21 of the 20th of November. As far as you were aware, or are aware, why did

22 Vezmarovic withdraw his troops from Ovcara?

23 A. Vezmarovic withdrew his troops from Ovcara because he had received

24 an order. The order was loud and clear, both from Vezmarovic, erů, that is,

25 both from, Vukosavljevic and, erů, Karanfilov. The troops were there, they

Page 9157

1 were left alone, and Vezmarovic withdrew. I realised, when I spoke to

2 Colonel Mrksic, that I had no business being there, that I was not needed

3 there. That was what I realised. I had not been given any assignment.

4 MR. MOORE: I have no further questions. Thank you very much.

5 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you, Mr. Moore.

6 Mr. Vojnovic, you'll be pleased to hear that this brings your

7 evidence to an end. You are now free to go.

8 We are going to adjourn for the day, and we will gather again

9 tomorrow morning at 9.30.

10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.23 p.m.,

11 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 18th day of

12 May, 2006, at 9.30 a.m.

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