Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9777

1 Wednesday, 31 May 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

6 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Good morning to you all. I'm afraid we

7 still have to sit without Judge Parker today. So Judge Thelin and myself,

8 pursuant to the Rules, will sit alone.

9 Mr. Moore.

10 MR. MOORE: May I deal with one small matter before we start?


12 MR. MOORE: It takes no time at all. With regard to the next

13 witness, Grujic, he is not able to come next week. He can conclude his

14 evidence this week, and then I believe it would have to go over, because

15 of his professional commitments, until almost mid-June. So we have asked,

16 but it is impossible for him next week.

17 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: I'm very sorry to hear that, Mr. Moore.

18 So, Mr. Lukic.

19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just to follow up on

20 what Mr. Moore has just shared with us. I have some additional

21 information in relation to Mr. Grujic, something that we find worrying, or

22 may find worrying, but that depends on the Chamber's decision following

23 what Mr. Moore has just said.

24 I'm sure you know that we have received a great deal of documents,

25 very comprehensive ones. Most of these documents we received last Friday.

Page 9778

1 The following Monday afternoon more material was disclosed to us, which is

2 the bulk of documents in relation to this witness, if I may say. These

3 are documents in relation to Vukovar and nothing but Vukovar. And

4 everything else that we have so far been receiving has mostly been in

5 relation to Croatia as a whole and was about the both previous times he

6 testified in the Milosevic and Martic trials. What we received two days

7 ago is entirely new, entirely unfamiliar. It is only in relation to our

8 indictment. It is to a great extent about Ovcara itself and about

9 Vukovar, generally speaking, as well as the territorial extent of our

10 indictment.

11 Given the sheer bulk of documents that we received, I don't think

12 we shall be in a position to cross-examine Grujic as soon as tomorrow. We

13 would only like to ask you to take into account our position in view of

14 the 48-hour dead-line. That is too little time for us to run all the

15 checks that we deem necessary. The best thing for us might be that

16 Mr. Grujic be examined in chief and then for cross-examination to proceed

17 at some later date, once we have been given a chance to go through these

18 documents that I say again are entirely new to us.


20 MR. MOORE: I am not specifically dealing with this topic but I am

21 obviously aware of what is occurring.

22 I am a little surprised at my learned friend saying that he

23 received documents on the Monday, because I am informed that in actual

24 fact those documents had been delivered to the Defence on Friday but it

25 was the ERN copies on Monday.

Page 9779

1 The best way ahead, if I may submit, is for Mr. Smith to be

2 contacted and perhaps at the next break for him to come down and deal with

3 the matter more specifically, because he actually deals with that

4 material. I have other areas that I have to deal with.

5 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you, Mr. Moore.

6 Mr. Lukic.

7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] On Monday we received batch 177; that

8 was disclosed to us on the 29th of May. That's what we received, and this

9 is the key document containing references to all of this. This is

10 entirely new to us, and we received this on the 29th from the OTP. The

11 afternoon of the 29th, if I may add.

12 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Well, I can see that there is a serious

13 problem for the cross-examination. I suggest that we see where we get

14 this week, and if it's impossible for the Defence to finish

15 cross-examination then we will have to resort to the solution that

16 Mr. Moore proposes, which is a bad solution, but which is inevitable, I'm

17 afraid, if we can't properly finish the cross-examination this week.

18 So we shall proceed with the evidence now.

19 Witness, may I remind you of the affirmation you took yesterday,

20 which still applies today. Thank you.

21 WITNESS: WITNESS P-030 [Resumed]

22 [Witness answered through interpreter]

23 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Good morning,

24 Your Honours. Good morning all.

25 Cross-examination by Mr. Vasic: [Continued]

Page 9780

1 Q. Good morning, sir. May I just remind you of what we said

2 yesterday about you making a short pause after each of my questions so

3 that the interpretation may proceed smoothly.

4 A. Very well. I'll try to keep that in mind.

5 Q. Thank you. First of all, I would like to clarify something that

6 we discussed yesterday briefly. You said you never did your regular

7 military service because you decided to press on with university?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you remember testifying before this Tribunal in a different

10 trial where you said that you never did your regular military service on

11 account of eyesight-related problems that you suffered at that time. Do

12 you remember that?

13 A. No, I don't.

14 Q. I'll read the relevant portion of the transcript from the

15 Dokmanovic case. Page reference is 721, lines 10 through 13.

16 "[In English] Very well. Did you see anybody wearing these

17 five-point stars, did you serve the army, by the way?

18 "A. No, because of my eyes."

19 Q. [Interpretation] Do you remember this, sir?

20 A. Yes, but that wasn't about me not doing my military service

21 because my eyesight was poor. This was about poor eyesight on account of

22 the fact that my glasses had just been shattered.

23 Q. What was your prescription back in 1991?

24 A. It was minus 2.25.

25 Q. On both your eyes, right?

Page 9781

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Was there anything else in addition to you being short-sighted?

3 Were you suffering from any other illness of your eyes?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Thank you very much. You told us yesterday that the HQ of your

6 unit was at Olajnica. Was this at a distance of about 200 or 300 metres

7 from the Vukovar Hospital?

8 A. Yes, roughly speaking.

9 Q. I hope you will agree with me that this is a part of Vukovar

10 which, with the exception of Borovo Naselje, had remained under the

11 control of the Croatian forces for the longest time?

12 A. I don't know about Borovo Naselje, but I do know that the Croatian

13 forces left Olajnica on the morning of the 20th. All resistance ceased

14 and defence forces had been disbanded already on the -- I'm sorry, I've

15 just made a mistake. Not on the 20th, but on the 19th. The morning of

16 the 19th. All resistance ceased on the morning of the 19th.

17 Q. Thank you. Were there any foreign mercenaries among your ranks

18 who came to give you a hand with fighting the JNA?

19 A. No, not as far as I knew.

20 Q. Did you ever meet an HOS member named Jean-Michel Nicolier who was

21 a sharpshooter in Vukovar?

22 A. I met a French man who had been wounded. I met this man at

23 hospital, but I had no clue he was an HOS member. People were saying that

24 he was indeed a sharpshooter.

25 Q. Thank you very much. What about a person by the name of Zlatko

Page 9782

1 Ovcar, also known as Deda, grandpa?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Do you know if he was perhaps an HOS member?

4 A. Yes, I do.

5 Q. He was a member of your unit. What were his precise duties?

6 A. He wasn't in my unit, but he was often in the Olajnica area. I

7 can't be more specific about his duties. I do know that he was an ethnic

8 Croat, and I think he hailed from Zagreb.

9 Q. Did you have any indication that this man had taken part in the

10 liquidation of Serbs in Vukovar's shelters and houses as combat operations

11 were already under way?

12 A. I didn't know about that. There was no indication.

13 Q. Upon your return to Croatia, did you ever meet this man and talk

14 to him?

15 A. I went to university in Zagreb, and I once caught glimpse of him

16 through the window of a passing tram.

17 Q. Does that mean that you didn't talk to him, you just laid eyes on

18 him, as it were?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you tell me who Ivan Korac is?

21 A. This was another man who was at Olajnica at the time. I think he

22 was from Vukovar originally. But he wasn't in the same group as me

23 either.

24 Q. Was this person a member of the military police of the National

25 Guards Corps, those were in charge of supervising the warehouse at

Page 9783

1 Olajnica?

2 A. I do know that he was a member of the National Guards Corps. I'm

3 not sure if he was a military policeman though. I'm not sure what his

4 task was, that he was supposed to keep an eye on the Olajnica warehouse.

5 I do know that he spent a lot of time in the area.

6 Q. We talked about your direct superior yesterday, I'm not mentioning

7 his name, but you know who I'm talking about, don't you?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. In addition to keeping an eye on the Olajnica warehouse, were he

10 and your unit also not tasked with watching the Vukovar warehouse?

11 THE INTERPRETER: The Vukovar Hospital, interpreter's correction.

12 A. It wasn't more than once or twice that we were told to go and

13 secure the hospital courtyard.

14 Q. In actual fact, you were standing guard there, right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you remember the exact time when you received these

17 assignments?

18 A. I think that was sometime in late September.

19 Q. You said something about staying in the Olajnica shelter

20 yesterday. Are you familiar with the fact that in October 1991 ZNG

21 military police officers killed ethnic Serbs called Milko and Mirka [as

22 interpreted] Orescanin, who were saying in this shelter. These people had

23 previously resided in Otokara Kersovanija Street, number 59?

24 A. I didn't know about that.

25 Q. My next question may jog your memory. Do you know about this pub

Page 9784

1 called Sid which used to be on Otokara Kersovanija Street?

2 A. No. Never heard.

3 Q. And did you know anything about a pub being blown up on

4 Otokara Kersovanija Street at some point in July 1991?

5 A. I was never, in fact, aware of a single pub on that street, not

6 ever. The only catering establishment along that street that I knew of

7 was the butcher's shop. That's all I can remember.

8 Q. Thank you very much. Throughout your time in the shelter at

9 Olajnica and for as long as you were carrying out your assignments there,

10 did you know of any ethnic Serbs being taken away from the shelter by any

11 ZNG members?

12 A. I don't really know that anyone was ever taken away, abducted, if

13 you like, from the shelter, regardless of their ethnicity.

14 Q. Were people being abducted or taken away from the nearby high-rise

15 buildings, perhaps?

16 A. Not that I was aware of.

17 Q. Thank you. Your unit was supposed to provide logistics support to

18 other units. You were supposed to look after civilians and the wounded

19 and tracking down any spies, right? Fifth columnists?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Where were your supplies coming from, where did you get your

22 logistical supplies from?

23 A. What exactly do you mean where did we get that from? Where was

24 the base?

25 Q. You said your task was to get supplied, logistics; in other words,

Page 9785

1 food, water, and other necessities. What I want to know is where were

2 these goods kept before you eventually took them to other places?

3 A. These goods were from Vukovar shops. The ones that had warehouses

4 before the war. We were given permission to enter these warehouses and to

5 distribute the food to civilians. In addition to that there were also

6 clothes available. People fled from their homes with just small plastic

7 bags; they had no change of clothing. The children didn't have diapers,

8 so we found these supplies for them in warehouses of various department

9 stores, shops and so on, upon receiving permission to do that.

10 Q. Thank you. As for the food, given that Vukovar is in a hilly area

11 and that there were many storage areas in town before the war where the

12 food was stored, I suppose that this is what you used to provide these

13 supplies for them?

14 A. I did not understand one of the words you used. Could you explain

15 that?

16 Q. In Vukovar before the war broke out there were many underground

17 storage areas where food was kept?

18 A. Do you have in mind basements?

19 Q. Yes. I have in mind the large basements where the food was

20 stored.

21 A. Most likely there were basements where food was stored. But we

22 didn't take food from those basements; we took it from warehouses of

23 shops. Food shops. In addition to that, we went to silos on the Danube

24 where flour was stored.

25 Q. Thank you. Was food delivered also via the so-called corn road up

Page 9786

1 until November of 1991?

2 A. I'm not aware of this corn road. The supplies that we used were

3 located in various warehouses belonging to the shops in town.

4 Q. Thank you. Do you know that there were also other groups

5 providing logistic support? One of them was located in the basement of

6 the Vupik supermarket near the municipal building?

7 A. I'm not aware of that.

8 Q. Are you familiar with the group for logistics which was active in

9 the Hungarian school in a street --

10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the name of the

11 street.

12 A. I heard about that after the war, but I didn't know about it at

13 the time.

14 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Thank you. I can see that the interpreters didn't hear the name

16 of the street. It was Radiceva Street.

17 I suppose that you distributed food and water on a daily basis to

18 these shelters that were in your area of responsibility?

19 A. Almost daily. And towards the end, as the shelling became more

20 intense, perhaps we didn't distribute it on a daily basis at all.

21 Q. I assume that you would turn over the supplies to the head of the

22 shelter, who then would distribute it among the people in the shelter; is

23 that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you bring this -- these supplies also to the unit which was

Page 9787

1 stationed in the palace of Count Eltz?

2 A. Perhaps on one occasion we took some clothes to them. Perhaps we

3 took some clothes to them once, or some food on one or two occasions.

4 Q. Thank you. Tell me, please, the distribution of supplies to the

5 shelters would be conducted in such a way as to take the supplies to a

6 centre, central area and then distributed further on on a daily basis?

7 A. Yes. Normally we would take it to the storage area that existed

8 in each building. It was an area under the staircase where people

9 normally kept their bicycles. We would put it there, and then from there

10 on it would be distributed on a daily basis, as needed.

11 Q. Thank you. Tell me, please, about one of the tasks your unit had,

12 which was to care for the wounded. Can you describe it in detail, please,

13 this care for the wounded?

14 A. If someone was wounded in that area in Olajnica, wounded by

15 shells, and later on by bullets, we would transport that person to the

16 hospital. In addition to that, some people who were lightly wounded and

17 for whom there was no more room at the hospital would be sent back and

18 cared for, their wounds dressed, in the nuclear shelter, as needed.

19 Also, if the hospital needed blood supplies, we would inquire

20 about possible blood donors. On one such occasions my mother went to give

21 blood, and she was then wounded. She was wounded in the area of her

22 liver. In addition to that, the driver who took her to the hospital, on

23 his way back, was wounded as well. Therefore, it was extremely dangerous

24 to carry out any tasks, including the most humane ones.

25 Q. Thank you. Please tell me this: Given that you had these tasks

Page 9788

1 to care for the wounded, did the command of your unit have a direct

2 contact with the Crisis Staff which was located in the Vukovar Hospital?

3 A. I don't quite understand what kind of contact you have in mind.

4 We were in the hospital area almost daily. I don't think that there was

5 any radio communication with the hospital Crisis Staff.

6 Q. Yes, it's clear to me now, thank you. Let us now turn to the task

7 of your unit pertaining to uncovering the fifth columnists or traitors. I

8 assume you uncovered them or located them amongst civilians who were

9 hiding in the shelters of buildings, residential buildings.

10 A. We started having suspicions that there were people who were loyal

11 to those attacking the town and shelling civilian targets. We started

12 having these suspicions when there were occasions when water tanks --

13 water tank trucks would bring in water. Up until the -- mid-October,

14 these trucks would bring in potable water. There were large numbers of

15 civilians, and they would bring us water for food preparation and for

16 drinking. Every time such a truck would arrive, a large number of people

17 would gather.

18 Q. Just a minute. You told us about that yesterday. I'm interested

19 in something else. It seems that you had suspicions about people being

20 informants, and I would like to know about the procedure your unit applied

21 regarding that?

22 A. I was just about to describe that to you. So whenever a water

23 tank truck arrived, within minutes very intense shelling would begin in

24 the immediate vicinity of the water truck. We were on the look-out to see

25 people peering through windows, and we could hear some soft firing sounds

Page 9789

1 as though a small pistol was being fired, omitting some kind of a signal.

2 Q. And then you would what, arrest these people and turn them over to

3 the military police of the ZNG?

4 A. I was simply trying to locate the area from which these shots were

5 fired. Other people who were not part of my group tried to locate more

6 closely these people. I think they were then detained.

7 Q. Do you know that in the high-rises near the shelter in Olajnica

8 elderly people were arrested, allegedly in possession of radio

9 transmitters and so on.

10 A. Yes, possible. If it was related to what we discussed previously.

11 I personally never saw it.

12 Q. The fifth columnists, the informants who were arrested, were they

13 ethnic Serbs?

14 A. I don't know.

15 Q. After being detained, do you know where they were taken and

16 questioned?

17 A. I think they were taken to the command headquarters, and as to

18 what happened to them there, I don't know.

19 Q. When you say the command headquarters, do you have in mind the

20 nuclear shelter under the municipal building in Vukovar?

21 A. I'm not sure whether they were taken there or to the military

22 police, which was in the building next to it.

23 Q. Do you know anything about the fate of the people taken into

24 custody and detained there?

25 A. I don't know what happened to them.

Page 9790

1 Q. Thank you. Up until the 15th or 16th of November, 1991, you were

2 hoping that the Croatian leadership would send military assistance to

3 Vukovar, as requested by Mile Dedakovic; isn't that right?

4 A. Yes. Not only military assistance, but also civilian aid. Water,

5 food and reinforcement.

6 Q. And it was only after the 15th or the 16th of November that you

7 realised that the help wasn't going to arrive, and it was then that you

8 became aware that Vukovar would fall?

9 A. As I was very young at the time, I didn't have an abundance of

10 information about the situation as a whole, and this is what I knew at the

11 time.

12 Q. And on the evening of the 18th November 1991, you took off your

13 uniform and the insignia of the ZNG, you threw away the membership card of

14 the HDZ, you took off your rosaries and that -- your valuables, and then

15 you decided to go to the hospital. Is that right?

16 A. Yes, everything is correct except for the membership card of the

17 HDZ. I never belonged to any political party.

18 Q. Please tell me, why did you do that on the evening of the 18th?

19 Did somebody tell you to change into civilian clothing and go to the

20 hospital on the following day? Did perhaps your commander tell you this?

21 A. I think that he was already at the hospital at that time, that he

22 wasn't in the Olajnica region at all. We heard, I don't know from whom,

23 that all resistance was to be discontinued and that it would be smart to

24 discard all of these belongings.

25 As for the decision to go to the hospital, it wasn't made until

Page 9791

1 the 19th in the morning when the lady came wrapped in a white flag, the

2 one that we described yesterday.

3 Q. Thank you. On the 18th in the evening, did other members of your

4 unit who hadn't decided to leave Vukovar also take off their uniforms and

5 discard their weapons?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Your commander, the one we mentioned earlier, was somebody trusted

8 by Dr. Vesna Bosanac. He was in constant communication with her, wasn't

9 he?

10 A. Yes. It was due to the nature of our tasks. As the time went by,

11 I'm now referring to late October and November, we were also tasked with

12 providing some of the food supplies to the hospital. The bread was baked

13 at Olajnica and delivered daily to the hospital for the wounded. Also,

14 whenever possible, we took other food supplies to the hospital. So the

15 commander was in constant contact.

16 Q. Thank you. Did he ever tell you that it was actually Dr. Bosanac

17 who informed him that the defenders of Vukovar should come to the hospital

18 in civilian clothing so that they could leave Vukovar in convoys?

19 A. I never heard that from him.

20 Q. When you decided to go to the hospital in civilian clothes, you

21 certainly expected the International Red Cross or some other international

22 organisation to peacefully evacuate you and your fellow fighters to

23 Croatia. That's what you told the Canadian officers; isn't that right?

24 A. Yes, that's correct.

25 Q. Thank you. We heard that unfortunately your mother was wounded,

Page 9792

1 and that at one time you went to visit her, I assume in your uniform and

2 with your weapons, when you were not on duty, and that this happened on an

3 almost daily basis?

4 A. Yes, that's correct. But I did not have a uniform except for

5 yellow boots, which were civilian boots. And I did not carry weapons into

6 the hospital.

7 Q. Thank you. Now that you mention those yellow boots, was there

8 anything written on them?

9 A. Not as far as I can remember. Those were yellow boots produced by

10 the Borovo factory for export. They were civilian boots, but they were

11 very high quality and very comfortable, which is why we were given them.

12 Q. You don't remember that the shipment that was issued to you was

13 stamped with the words "Defenders of Vukovar."

14 A. I remember that the boots I received certainly did not have the

15 words "Defenders of Vukovar" stamped on them. As to whether there were

16 any letters on them or not, there may have been a logo or a trademark name

17 of foreign origin. I cannot be certain about this.

18 Q. Thank you. On the 18th of November in the evening when you took

19 off all the things you mentioned, were you already aware that the

20 commanders of the Vukovar defence had already left Vukovar?

21 A. I think that information was going around at the time.

22 Q. You didn't leave Vukovar, as you told us yesterday, because of

23 your mother, and because you hoped, as you told us today, that you would

24 be peacefully evacuated by some international organisation. Was another

25 reason for your not attempting to leave Vukovar the problem of minefields,

Page 9793

1 which were laid by various groups of defenders in various parts of town,

2 and you were not sure where precisely they were, so it was risky to move

3 along those routes. Isn't that correct?

4 A. It's correct that there was great fear of leaving the town on

5 one's own initiative. Both because of the minefields, as well as the

6 forces, the hostile forces, the JNA forces and others surrounding the

7 town, and there was also fear of being involved in a direct fight with

8 them, being taken prisoner. So I did not dare go along those routes. I

9 knew that Vinkovci was the closest free area, and that was over 12

10 kilometres away through the fields. It was a very dangerous and uncertain

11 route to take.

12 Q. Thank you. On your arrival in the hospital on the 19th of

13 November, which you have already described, and during that night you saw

14 many of your fellow fighters in the hospitals. They were in civilian

15 clothes and, like you, they wanted to leave with the hospital convoy; is

16 that correct?

17 A. Yes, it is.

18 Q. Some of them put on plaster-casts and bandages to make it appear

19 that they were patients of the hospital; is that correct?

20 A. Some of them were wounded, and they had bandages, but there were

21 also others who were not wounded and put bandages on.

22 Q. Thank you. Others put on white coats so it would appear they were

23 hospital staff; is that correct?

24 A. That's correct.

25 Q. You then saw a soldier, Damjan Samardzic, whom you mentioned here,

Page 9794

1 who was wearing a white hospital coat; is that correct?

2 A. Yes, that's correct. Maybe not on the 19th but on the 20th, but I

3 did see him wearing a white coat.

4 Q. You did not put on a white coat because you thought you would be

5 included in the convoy as your mother's escort; is that correct?

6 A. I didn't want to put on a white coat at all. And yes, I did think

7 I would be accompanying a wounded person; that is, my mother.

8 Q. I now wish to move to that part of your statement which concerns

9 your arrival in the barracks and my friends -- my colleagues will deal

10 with the rest. I would like to go back to what you said about some people

11 leaving the bus and entering another bus, and that they received some

12 blows as they were passing by. When you spoke about this beating, you

13 said it wasn't very serious. Do you remember that?

14 A. These were slaps and kicks in the bottom, or in the stomach. As

15 for their seriousness, it was less serious than what happened later on to

16 the other people in the hangar at Ovcara.

17 Q. When you arrived at Ovcara, you told us yesterday that you were

18 met by a gauntlet of Chetniks and that there were more of them in the

19 hangar. Outside there were some 10 of them, and some 15 inside. Is that

20 correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You told us that after passing through the gauntlet --

23 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, 10 on each side.

24 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. -- you said they took your money and your jackets. Is that

Page 9795

1 correct?

2 A. Yes, it is.

3 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Can we see Exhibit 256, photograph 22,

4 please. Thank you. Can we zoom into the hangar we are discussing in the

5 centre? Thank you.

6 Q. Do you see this photograph, sir?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can you show us the hangar in which you were detained?

9 Excuse me, could the usher hand you a pen so that we can all see

10 this in the courtroom.

11 A. It's this hangar here. [Marks]. This is where we came in, this

12 is where the gauntlet was. This is the direction from which the buses

13 arrived. [Marks].

14 Q. Thank you. Could you please mark this hangar with the number 1?

15 A. [Marks].

16 Q. Put number 1 there and circle it.

17 A. [Marks]. Yes.

18 Q. Could you mark the place where the gauntlet was with 2?

19 A. [Marks].

20 Q. Would you be kind enough to indicate the place where your

21 belongings were taken, your jackets and so on?

22 A. Here, at the entrance, and they threw them here. [Marks].

23 Q. Would you be so kind as to mark that with 3?

24 A. [Marks].

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 9796

1 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I wish to tender this

2 photograph into evidence.

3 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: It will be received.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this photograph will be Exhibit 527.

5 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. We will not need this

6 photograph any longer. Thank you.

7 Q. Yesterday you told us that your glasses were broken right after

8 you entered the hangar; is that correct?

9 A. Yes, it is.

10 Q. After your glasses were broken, bearing in mind the situation you

11 described in the hangar, you described it yesterday, and the fact that you

12 are short-sighted, and quite badly, would you agree with me that by the

13 light entering the hangar only from windows which were high up, you

14 couldn't really distinguish or discern details in the hangar. Is that

15 correct?

16 A. There was also light coming in through the door, not just through

17 the windows, which were high up. But it's true that my perception was

18 diminished and that as I was unable to see details. I was, however, able

19 to see the overall situation very well.

20 Q. Would you agree that in view of the fact that you are

21 short-sighted you could only see what was happening close to you, but you

22 couldn't see what was happening further away. I'm referring to your

23 observation of detail.

24 A. Yes, that's correct.

25 Q. Thank you. Yesterday you said that at one point a person made a

Page 9797

1 list.

2 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps it might be better to move

3 into private session at this point.


5 [Private session]

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 9798











11 Pages 9798-9801 redacted. Private session.















Page 9802

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 [Open session]

19 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.

20 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

21 Q. You were asked by my learned friend yesterday about those sounds

22 of heavy machines. One seemed to be nearby, and the other seemed to be at

23 some distance. Would you agree with me if I told you that you never

24 mentioned this to the OTP investigators who took your statement, did you?

25 A. I did mention this at some point, I can't remember which specific

Page 9803

1 statement that was. But I'm sure I did mention the sounds of heavy

2 machinery working nearby. The sound spread far and wide. I am positive

3 that I mentioned this somewhere. I'm just not sure about which statement.

4 Maybe the questions were not sufficiently specific for me to answer in

5 some other statements.

6 Q. Well, one thing I can tell you is that you never mentioned this in

7 any of your numerous statements, the numerous statements that you gave

8 upon your return to Croatia, or those that were taken by OTP investigators

9 or, for that matter, during your evidence in the Dokmanovic case, or

10 during your evidence to the investigating magistrates in Zagreb, Osijek

11 and Belgrade. The only time you ever mentioned this was in the Dokmanovic

12 case. But what you said was quite different. You said you heard sounds

13 of heavy machines at work somewhere in the distance, which is quite

14 different, I'm sure you will agree, from what you told us yesterday and a

15 while ago?

16 A. It's a matter of distance, right? I did say at some point that I

17 had heard heavy machines at work. I did say that. So much for that. One

18 thing that is open is the distance, the actual distance of these machines.

19 When I arrived outside the hangar the sound seemed to be coming

20 from the right, this sound of heavy machinery operating. The distance is

21 definitely open to debate. It certainly wasn't that nearby, because if it

22 been I would have seen the machines. I'm not sure where they were

23 exactly. They may as well been somewhere behind the building, somewhere I

24 couldn't see them. But one thing is certain: I did hear these sounds of

25 heavy machinery.

Page 9804

1 Q. These heavy machines sound, this was a sound that might have been

2 produced by a self-propelled machine-gun or by a tank or by another piece

3 of machinery that wasn't exactly light?

4 A. Yes. It might have been excavators, for example, or loaders,

5 tanks. Any piece of machinery with a powerful engine. It's very

6 difficult to distinguish these different sounds, and that's why I wasn't

7 particularly specific when I said heavy machinery. It's a very general

8 description.

9 Q. Can you please just explain why you failed to mention this in any

10 of your statements to the OTP or in your evidence before the Osijek and

11 Belgrade courts?

12 A. Can you tell me one thing: Did anybody ever ask that specific

13 question?

14 Q. No, I don't think you were asked.

15 A. My apologies, so that may be the reason I never gave the

16 reference. When I was actually prompted, I did say so with no hesitation.

17 Q. But do you remember that perhaps in the Dokmanovic trial you

18 weren't asked this specific question, and yet -- the page reference is

19 711, line 25, and 722, lines 1 through 4. That's the reference. Do you

20 remember that?

21 A. I don't remember being asked. I do remember saying that

22 somewhere. You say this was in the Dokmanovic trial. If there is a

23 transcript that shows that I said this, then that is probably the case.

24 But I can't remember whether I was actually prompted on that occasion or

25 not.

Page 9805

1 Q. Over the last 15 years, which is the period covered by the various

2 statements that you gave, did you ever talk to members of the special

3 department of Croatia's government for proofing witnesses who are bound to

4 testify before the Tribunal in The Hague?

5 A. Which Tribunal?

6 Q. This Tribunal.

7 A. No, I didn't talk to anyone from Croatia about this Tribunal. No

8 one ever accosted me on behalf of Croatia as a state over anything to do

9 with this court. I only ever talked to personnel of this court,

10 investigators as a matter of fact. People who introduced themselves as

11 employees of the ICTY.

12 Q. Did you ever discuss your testimony here with other persons who

13 gave evidence about Ovcara?

14 A. I didn't talk to anyone.

15 Q. Thank you very much for your answers, sir.

16 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

17 questions.

18 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you, Mr. Vasic.

19 Mr. Borovic.

20 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the best thing for us

21 might be to take our break now and then be back so as I can start my

22 examination. But if you think the best thing to do would be to start now,

23 I might as well do so.

24 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: [Previous translation continues] ... so

25 please go ahead.

Page 9806

1 Cross-examination by Mr. Borovic:

2 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon. My name is Borivoje Borovic on

3 behalf of Miroslav Radic.

4 A. Good morning.

5 Q. You testified in chief yesterday that in your neighbourhood there

6 were houses inhabited by civilians and civilians only during the JNA

7 attack, right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. However, you also stated yesterday that control of your

10 neighbourhood shifted. At times it was JNA-controlled, and at times it

11 was ZNG-controlled, the paramilitary unit known as the ZNG; is that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Does that mean that at certain points in time you were stuck, as

14 it were, between the JNA units on the one hand and the ZNG units, the

15 paramilitary units on the other, caught in a cross-fire, as it were?

16 A. During that period of time, from the 24th of August until the

17 15th of September, this entails 22 days, I never left basement during that

18 period of time. Therefore, I can't tell you whether my house was ever

19 caught in the cross-fire between these two forces.

20 Q. Thank you. And how do you know that at a certain point in time

21 your neighbourhood was under the control of one forces and later on the

22 forces on the other side, those belonging to paramilitary formations? How

23 did you know about that then?

24 A. Because in front of my house, in the street there was a

25 check-point with sandbags belonging to Croatian forces.

Page 9807

1 Q. Thank you. Does this mean that in front of your house and further

2 down the street there ran a defence line of the ZNG?

3 A. Occasionally there was a line positioned in Otokara Kersovanija

4 Street.

5 Q. Thank you. My second question. We learned here that in the

6 water-tower there was a cache of weapons. I'm asking you whether you know

7 that there were sniper nests in the water-tower belonging to the

8 paramilitary ZNG forces and, if so, during what period of time?

9 A. Let's just take it fact by fact. I never heard that there was a

10 cache of weapons in the water-tower. Second, I never heard that snipers

11 were positioned in the water-tower. And third, these formations in town

12 were not paramilitary formations but rather those of ZNG, the Croatian

13 army.

14 Q. Thank you. Does this means [as interpreted] that in your view the

15 ZNG was a regular Croatian army with regular uniforms, insignia and with

16 legally procured weapons or not? Or was perhaps everything illegal and

17 paramilitary?

18 A. In my view, the ZNG was a regular army of the Croatian state.

19 Just a minute, let me complete.

20 Q. Yes, please go ahead.

21 A. Please let me complete. The uniforms were different. The town

22 was encircled for two or three months. People couldn't change into

23 different uniforms, and as the weather grew colder they started wearing

24 civilian clothes. As for the origin of weapons, I am not familiar with

25 that.

Page 9808

1 Q. You say that you didn't have a uniform. Can you please explain it

2 to me how come in a regular army you did not have a uniform, and you were

3 a member of the ZNG?

4 A. I just explained to you that it wasn't possible to have the

5 uniforms delivered to us. There was no access into town. There was no

6 way a truck could have delivered shirts to us. The bird couldn't fly into

7 town.

8 Q. All right. Let us conclude with this: If you were indeed a

9 member of the regular army, were you properly trained? Were you prepared

10 to be a member of the regular Croatian army?

11 A. I wasn't prepared and trained, but I wasn't involved in military

12 operations either. I was involved in taking care of civilians.

13 Q. All right. You went to the Vukovar Hospital. Do you know which

14 ZNG unit acted or was active in the hospital compound at the time when you

15 went there?

16 A. I don't know which unit.

17 Q. Do you know which unit was positioned on the roof of the hospital

18 and opened fire from there when you went to the hospital?

19 A. As far as I know, there was no one on the roof of the hospital,

20 because the upper storeys were extremely unsafe. The hospital was

21 constantly shelled, targeted from the planes. You know the occasion when

22 a large bomb, this so-called Krmaca fell on the hospital. There was

23 absolutely no one on the upper storeys of the hospital. It was senseless,

24 there was no point in putting anyone on the roof because the hospital

25 building wasn't high enough to gain any advantage from that.

Page 9809

1 Q. Thank you. When did you go to the hospital on the first -- for

2 the first time?

3 A. In September. This is where -- when I donated blood, and I think

4 that I spent a night standing guard in the hospital compound.

5 Q. Thank you. What weapon did you have?

6 A. Some kind of a hunting rifle.

7 Q. Do you know that in accordance with all Geneva Conventions firing

8 from hunting weapons is banned because it inflicts very serious suffering

9 and bodily injury?

10 A. I'm not familiar with Geneva Conventions. I suppose that serious

11 and grave injuries can be inflicted with hunting rifles, and I myself

12 never fired from one.

13 Q. All right. And before we break, please tell us this: Which

14 nuclear shelters in the hands of the ZNG did you know about at the time?

15 A. In the nuclear shelter at Olajnica -- or, rather, that shelter was

16 not taken by the ZNG.

17 Q. Were there any Serbian military formations there, or just the ZNG

18 units?

19 A. There were several members of the ZNG inside the shelter itself.

20 However, when in shelter, they were unarmed. In one building entrance

21 there were 400 to 500 civilians. Those civilians were of all ethnic

22 backgrounds, and in that nuclear shelter there were no Serbian forces.

23 Q. Did you hear of the nuclear shelter in Borovo Komerc and do you

24 know under whose control it was, under control of which forces?

25 A. I heard about that shelter, but I can't tell you anything about it

Page 9810

1 because I'm not really familiar with it.

2 Q. Did you hear of it?

3 A. I heard.

4 Q. Just a minute. Did you hear that that nuclear shelter was also

5 under the control of the ZNG?

6 A. I heard that perhaps some 10 years later in Zagreb.

7 Q. Thank you. Did you hear that the nuclear shelter at the hospital

8 where you as a member of the ZNG stood guard was also under the control of

9 the ZNG and the Vukovar MUP?

10 A. As far as I am aware, the nuclear shelter at the hospital was not

11 under control of any army or the MUP or the ZNG. It was a civilian and

12 medical facility; it was not under anyone's control.

13 Q. Thank you. Who stood guard at the hospital? Members of which

14 formations?

15 A. Members of the ZNG. But they did not guard the nuclear shelter

16 itself, just the outside perimeter of the hospital.

17 Q. Thank you. Is this nuclear shelter located inside the hospital?

18 A. I believe it's in the basement of the hospital.

19 Q. Thank you. Do you know, was there any nuclear shelter under the

20 MUP building?

21 A. I'm not aware of that.

22 Q. What about under the ZNG headquarters, was there a nuclear shelter

23 there?

24 A. There was one there. I think that that was the former military

25 department office.

Page 9811

1 Q. And -- thank you. And it was under the control of the ZNG, wasn't

2 it?

3 A. That is -- that is the shelter that was under the control of the

4 army and MUP, and I believe that there were no civilians there.

5 Q. All right. How many people could fit into the Olajnica shelter

6 where you had your ZNG base?

7 A. As I told you, about 400 people. Towards the end, as people from

8 Olajnica started leaving buildings on fire --

9 Q. I'm asking you how many people could fit.

10 A. Occasionally over 500 people would cram inside.

11 Q. In your previous statements the figure you mentioned was 700, but

12 that's all right.

13 A. When I said 700, that pertained to the hospital. When I came

14 there on the 19th.

15 Q. All right. And my definitely final question. Was there a large

16 shelter where there were civilians, ZNG and MUP members in the Vupik

17 basements? Do you know anything about that?

18 A. Under the Vupik restaurant, across from the Eltz palace there was

19 a nuclear shelter -- no, I apologise, not a nuclear shelter, rather that

20 was an old wine cellar. And there were only civilians there. I know

21 about that because we took some food to them several times, and water. I

22 didn't see any ZNG members there or MUP members either.

23 Q. And finally can we agree that all nuclear shelters and all larger

24 shelters during war operations in Vukovar were under the control of the

25 ZNG and MUP of Vukovar and not, as you call them, Serbian forces? Can we

Page 9812

1 agree on that?

2 MR. MOORE: I'm sorry, the witness has given a series of answers

3 to specific questions. And all my learned friend is trying to do is to

4 structure a question in a way that circumvents the earlier answers. And I

5 would submit it's an unfair question.

6 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I fail to understand

7 what my learned friend Moore was trying to say. The witness gave very

8 firm answers to all questions. I'm not trying to avoid any topic. I

9 think that this question was a completely fair one. Since this man took

10 part in logistical support and since he toured all of these shelters, and

11 that's by his own account, all I'm trying to do is to reach a conclusion

12 that would be helpful to the Trial Chamber in establishing what the

13 situation was in all the large shelters in Vukovar. So I'm asking that

14 the witness be directed to answer this question.

15 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you, Mr. Borovic. But I don't

16 recollect the witness saying that the shelters were under the control of

17 the ZNG and the MUP. So I think you're taking it further than what the

18 witness actually said. That's my understanding, but you may wish to clear

19 it up. But we have to have a break soon, so can you clarify it.

20 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] I certainly will. I suggest for us

21 to take a break now. Thank you. If you think that it's time for the

22 break. I had just one more question remaining regarding this topic.

23 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: I think for the sake of the tapes that we

24 need to have the break now.

25 So we will resume just before half past.

Page 9813

1 --- Recess taken at 11.08 a.m.

2 --- On resuming at 11.33 a.m.

3 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Mr. Borovic. Before you start,

4 Mr. Borovic, may I ask you to think of the pace of your questioning

5 because the interpreters have been struggling with this. Okay.

6 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] All right. I'll bear that in mind.

7 Q. In all larger nuclear shelters that we have mentioned so far, did

8 you ever see in any of them members of these so-called Serbian forces or

9 not?

10 A. In the shelters I mentioned previously, I didn't see members of

11 the Serbian forces.

12 Q. I think that we have clarified this and we can move on.

13 Did you say to the Trial Chamber who was in command of the ZNG

14 forces in Olajnica?

15 A. I mentioned the commander of my group, but there were some other

16 members of the ZNG there who would come there to rest. They were members

17 of other units of the ZNG.

18 Q. Thank you. Marin Mercep was the commander of your group. Isn't

19 that right?

20 A. That's not correct.

21 Q. Who was in command of your group then?

22 A. I think that we discussed this in private session. I don't know

23 if I am allowed to say this now, publicly.

24 Q. Thank you. Was Marin Mercep somebody in charge of the group with

25 which you tried to break through out of Vukovar?

Page 9814

1 A. That's not correct. Marin Mercep was in charge of the group with

2 which I wanted to, I intended to leave. However, I never departed with

3 them to attempt to break through from Vukovar.

4 Q. All right. Thank you. Did your group engage in any combat during

5 these Vukovar events?

6 A. My group was not active in combat.

7 Q. Thank you. Can you please tell us who directed the civilians to

8 go from the nuclear shelter in Olajnica to the hospital in an organised

9 fashion? Was that done by you?

10 A. After the woman in a white flag arrived, the civilians split.

11 They formed groups going to the direction of the hospital and the market.

12 I assisted them in finding the route from the shelter in Olajnica to the

13 hospital, because the situation was a very difficult one. There were

14 children, six, seven and eight years old, and even some younger ones, and

15 they had emerged into daylight after three months of darkness. They were

16 terrified.

17 In the vicinity, one could still hear shooting and occasional

18 explosion. In the crowd of civilians, including women, children and the

19 elderly, I was one of the very few males. As I was accustomed to moving

20 via the routes which were not frequented by civilians between Olajnica and

21 the hospital, I helped these civilians in finding the proper road to reach

22 the hospital.

23 Q. Thank you. I would like to ask you to give answers that are

24 brief, because we have to cover a lot of material.

25 My question was: Did you lead the column on their way from

Page 9815

1 Olajnica to hospital? You could have just answered with a simple yes.

2 A. I want to be as clear as possible, so I'm giving the answers that

3 I find appropriate. Whatever time it takes, no matter how long it takes.

4 Q. I think that I am in charge of this cross-examination, so you will

5 have to follow my cues.

6 When asked by Mr. Vasic, you said that you dug parts of your

7 uniform, your weapons and rosaries into ground before going to the

8 hospital. Why did you do that?

9 A. I was afraid. I was afraid of them finding these items on me

10 personally. I had no use of weapons any longer. And as for rosaries,

11 they were an evidence of me being a Croat. As for the uniforms and the

12 boots, that was yet another thing that could have given me away as a

13 member of Croatian forces. So I went from Olajnica to the hospital as a

14 civilian.

15 Q. Thank you. When asked by Mr. Vasic, you also said that the ZNG

16 members put on fake bandages or plaster on parts of their bodies which

17 were not injured, hoping to appear as the wounded. You also said

18 something similar to the investigators. And when asked by Canadian

19 investigators earlier and today by Mr. Vasic, you said that some members

20 of the ZNG put on white coats hoping to pass themselves off as hospital

21 staff. My question, once again, is why?

22 A. My answer is that all this was done out of fear. We were afraid

23 we would be punished as members of the ZNG, which had offered armed

24 resistance to the Serb forces.

25 Q. Thank you. Did someone attempt to surrender with weapons after

Page 9816

1 the 18th, to the best of your knowledge? Someone who was a member of the

2 ZNG? Did they hand in their weapons, put their hands up and say, "I am a

3 prisoner of war," thereby acquiring all the privileges pursuant to the

4 conventions?

5 A. I'm not aware of any such case in the area I was in.

6 Q. Thank you. Are you aware that Marin Mercep was a member of a

7 special ZNG group laying minefields in town?

8 A. It's possible he was a member of that group, but I don't think

9 minefields were laid inside the town, only outside the town.

10 Q. Are you guessing?

11 A. Yes, I'm guessing.

12 Q. Thank you. When you arrived in the hospital, on page 3 of both

13 the B/C/S and the English versions, you said that in the evening of

14 the 19th of November nothing was happening in the hospital, and that you

15 slept on a chair until the morning. Is that correct?

16 A. I would have to check the documents.

17 Q. Go ahead. You have them before you. This is your statement to

18 the Office of the Prosecutor, page 3.

19 A. Could you tell me the date of the statement, please?

20 Q. The only statement you gave to the OTP, and it's on page 3. I

21 will tell you the date. It's the 19th of June, 1995. Just a moment.

22 A. Yes, that's correct.

23 Q. And do you confirm today that that's how it was?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Thank you. At what time did you reach the barracks coming from

Page 9817

1 the hospital?

2 A. I cannot tell you what time it was precisely. It was certainly in

3 the morning hours, before noon.

4 Q. Thank you. You told my colleague that you spent at least two

5 hours at Ovcara?

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. So if you spent three hours in the barracks and that you left

8 Ovcara when dark fell in a van, that would mean that you spent at least

9 three to four hours at Ovcara?

10 A. I suppose one can check meteorologically when dark fell on the

11 20th of November, and you can work out the precise time of my departure

12 from Ovcara. It's very difficult for me to pin-point the time period.

13 Q. Well, I was simply calculating. You told us at what time you were

14 separated off in the hospital, then you went to the barracks, you say you

15 spent three hours there, and finally yesterday you said that it grew dark

16 at around 1700 hours, that's 5.00 p.m., in November. And this would mean

17 that the time was three to four hours. However, that's not so important.

18 My question is the following: During the time you were at Ovcara,

19 did you see anyone taken outside in front of the hangar and killed on the

20 spot? Did such things happen?

21 A. I did not see it.

22 Q. Thank you. While you were there, did you see some group separated

23 off and taken to be shot or not?

24 A. You mean at Ovcara?

25 Q. Yes, at Ovcara.

Page 9818

1 A. I did not see this.

2 Q. Thank you. How long were you there standing in front of the

3 hangar before you went towards Velepromet by van?

4 A. I think it was about an hour.

5 Q. Thank you. Across from the entrance-way to the hangar, during the

6 time you spent there, and you said you set out when it was dusk, which

7 means that you could still see for a while, did you notice across from the

8 gate to the hangar, across the road from there, a big hole in which there

9 were corpses? Did you see that or not?

10 A. I did not notice that.

11 Q. Thank you. Yesterday answering Mr. Moore's question you described

12 the first person to arrive in the hospital on the 20th of November. You

13 described his appearance, his uniform, but you didn't tell us his age.

14 The first person.

15 A. You mean the first person who entered the hospital and told us to

16 go outside? My assumption was that he was around 50, but I can't be sure.

17 Q. All right. Thank you. After this in your statement to the

18 Prosecutor, and yesterday answering my colleague's question, you said in

19 great detail that after they lined up, as you said, Major Sljivancanin

20 arrived, accompanied by another officer whom he addressed as Captain

21 Radic, and when he said that he should search the people you were asked by

22 my learned friend, Mr. Moore, that he said more than once, Captain Radic,

23 search the people; Captain Radic, search the people; Captain Radic, search

24 the people. That's what's on the record. You also stated that

25 Sljivancanin and Radic did not issue orders to the members of the

Page 9819

1 Territorial Defence. Is that correct?

2 A. Yes, it is.

3 Q. Thank you. But you did say that this captain issued orders to his

4 own men; is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. My question is: Did you notice whether the people receiving

7 orders had white belts on, like the ones worn by members of the military

8 police?

9 A. I don't recall that detail.

10 Q. Thank you. What do you remember then?

11 A. I remember that the men to whom orders were issued were wearing

12 olive-drab uniforms of the JNA, that they were youngish, and I would say

13 they were conscripts. They searched us.

14 Q. We heard that.

15 A. That's what I remember.

16 Q. Would you be kind enough to tell us whether during the time you

17 spent in the hospital, before you left the compound, you noticed soldiers

18 with white belts anywhere?

19 A. I saw one with a white belt, but he was from Vukovar. And he was

20 older. He wasn't a conscript, certainly.

21 Q. What was this man from Vukovar with a white belt on his uniform

22 doing?

23 A. Nothing. He was just standing there talking to some people. He

24 was threatening some people.

25 Q. He didn't participate in the search?

Page 9820

1 A. No, he didn't participate in the search.

2 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to have

3 Exhibit 170 shown on the screen. That's page 3, please. Could the usher

4 please give the witness a pen?

5 Q. Do you see this photograph on the screen?

6 A. Yes, I do.

7 Q. Is this a photograph of the Vukovar Hospital?

8 A. That's correct.

9 Q. Could you now indicate the place from which you observed what we

10 have just been talking about?

11 A. I was somewhere around here.

12 Q. Could you mark this with 1 and circle it.

13 A. [Marks].

14 Q. Can you mark the place where Mr. Sljivancanin was standing?

15 A. Around here. Shall I put 2 and circle it?

16 Q. Yes.

17 A. [Marks].

18 Q. And where was the captain?

19 A. Right next to him.

20 Q. Right next to him. Mark it with 3.

21 A. [Marks].

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I wish to tender this

24 into evidence, this photograph.

25 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: It will be received.

Page 9821

1 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 528, Your Honours.

2 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 Q. You also stated that this captain was about 180 centimetres tall,

4 that he had a moustache and a solid-colour military uniform, and that he

5 had a Bordeaux-coloured beret on his head, a dark red one?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And you also said he entered the bus with a list?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Yesterday we heard from you that you made a great many statements,

10 that in 1992 you made a statement to Lavoslav Bosanac, the husband of

11 Vesna Bosanac. We did not understand in what context and where the

12 statement is, as it has not been delivered to the Defence. What we do

13 have, however, is your statement to the Canadian investigators which you

14 made in March 1993. Is that correct?

15 A. As for Mr. Lavoslav Bosanac, I did make a statement to him, but he

16 did not write it down. It is not documented.

17 Q. I am now asking you about your statement to the Canadian

18 investigators in March 1993.

19 A. Yes, it was around that time, I agree.

20 Q. In order to avoid wasting time, I see you have all these

21 statements in the file before you. Then you made a statement to the

22 Croatian authorities in Osijek some three months later; that is, in

23 December 1993.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Then to the centre for gathering documentation about the Homeland

Page 9822

1 War in 1994?

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. To the OTP in 1995 and before a court in Zagreb in 1996 and 2004.

4 Is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You stated, among other things, before the centre in Zagreb for

7 gathering documentation about the Homeland War in 1994 in paragraph 1,

8 page 2 of English, of the English version --

9 A. May I look?

10 Q. Just a moment. It's on page 2, paragraph 4 in B/C/S. You told us

11 that the captain was a security officer, and you said before the court in

12 Zagreb that he was aged between 35 and 40. On the 27th of March, 2006 --

13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, 1996.

14 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. On page 9 on Rule 61 you said that he was wearing a dark red

16 jacket [as interpreted]. My first question is: How do you know that he

17 was a security officer? Excuse me.

18 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] There is an error in the transcript.

19 Instead of leather jacket, it says dark red jacket. I read leather

20 jacket.

21 Now colleague Moore is on his feet.

22 MR. MOORE: I have no objection to the question; it's a perfectly

23 reasonable question. But what has preceded it has been reference to a

24 number of statements. In my submission, the witness should have an

25 opportunity at least of having access to those statements and his

Page 9823

1 attention directed to them. Because the way it is now, it's very

2 difficult to follow for anyone.

3 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: That's a fair comment, Mr. Borovic.

4 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] I agree, but there is a follow-up.

5 I simply listed these statements for the witness to confirm, but before I

6 go into details I wish to have some footage played. It is very brief.

7 And I would like to ask the witness to look at it. It concerns the

8 hospital.

9 MR. MOORE: Is this an exhibit or another document?

10 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] This is footage delivered by the OTP

11 to the Defence.

12 MR. MOORE: I don't --

13 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] I will give you the number. It's

14 V000-0625-1-A. So this is something in the possession of the OTP, but it

15 has not been tendered into evidence.

16 MR. MOORE: I'm very grateful to my learned friend for that

17 assistance, but would he be kind enough just to remember perhaps to serve

18 on the Prosecution if he is going to be cross-examining on any document or

19 exhibit -- or indeed video, that we could have some notice of it. I

20 thought the understanding was 48 hours.


22 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I respect my learned

23 friend's suggestion, but this has not been done by the OTP so far. We

24 have had footage, and this is the first time I've heard that I have to

25 deliver in advance something in the possession of the OTP. It's not a

Page 9824

1 problem, but it has not been the practice so far.

2 By your leave, I would like to proceed. If this is to become the

3 practice, in accordance with Your Honours' ruling, I will certainly comply

4 with it. We would be very happy if what the Prosecutor wanted to show to

5 the witness would be delivered to the Defence 48 hours before the precise

6 footage that is to be shown.

7 May I play it now?

8 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Please proceed, Mr. Borovic.

9 [Videotape played]

10 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. We can stop it right

11 there, please.

12 Q. This is a JNA officer. Do you recognise the environment shown in

13 this footage? Is this, in fact, outside the hospital on the 20th of

14 November?

15 A. Could be the 20th, but could be the 19th too. I didn't approach

16 the hospital from that side.

17 Q. Thank you. Do you know that there were wounded JNA members in the

18 hospital too, since you seem to have been to the hospital a number of

19 times.

20 A. I heard about this perhaps as much as 10 years later in Zagreb. I

21 have heard about this, but I didn't witness this myself when I was there.

22 Q. Thank you. What about this person in the previous footage armed,

23 wearing a beret and a moustache?

24 A. Can I have a full screen shot, please? Stop right there and zoom

25 in, if you can, or do a full screen view of the image? Thank you. Thank

Page 9825

1 you, this is fine.

2 [Videotape played]

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am certain that I'm not, in fact,

4 able to identify this person.

5 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Thank you. What led you to believe that the captain you have been

7 mentioning was a security officer?

8 A. Can I get the transcript, please, if the usher could give me a

9 hand with this. And if I could please have a look at the document you're

10 talking about?

11 Q. You have the statement right in front of you.

12 A. Am I free to have a look?

13 Q. By all means. It is the centre for gathering documents on the

14 Homeland War, the date is the 6th of July, 1994, paragraph 1, page 2. The

15 English reference is page 2, paragraph 4. It's just a single sentence. I

16 didn't make any copies for the Chamber.

17 A. I have the Croatian in front of me, and can I just have a minute

18 to find this?

19 Q. Page 2, paragraph 1. That's your reference, sir. Have you got

20 that?

21 A. Yes, that's right. I've got it. But ...

22 Q. You want me to read that portion out to you?

23 A. I see what it says, but --

24 Q. Does the statement not indicate that Captain Radic, who was in

25 charge of that list, went from bus to bus and that he was some sort of a

Page 9826

1 security officer there?

2 A. Yes, that's what it says. But the time reference here is to the

3 barracks.

4 Q. That's fine. That's fine.

5 A. He was some sort of -- their security officer. The sentence

6 implies that this is an assumption on my part. It is not a fact that I am

7 stating with any degree of certainty.

8 Q. What does this mean to you, be a security officer, security. What

9 does that word imply?

10 A. I can't give you a definition.

11 MR. MOORE: [Previous translation continues] ... the Court don't

12 have a copy of it, and my translation does not say he was "a security

13 officer." The translation I have was "he was their security guard." And

14 there is a big difference in relation to that, in my submission.

15 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] In both B/C/S versions the gist

16 appears to be the same, that this was their security officer. If the

17 English reads "their guard," I can accept that, I can live with that, as

18 long as this is confirmed for us by the witness himself. It might be that

19 one of these versions is simply erroneous.

20 Q. Was there a captain who acted as a guard or was Captain Radic, in

21 fact, a security officer?

22 A. As you can see the whole statement was based on some accounts.

23 You can see in terms of the time-line that I was already in some sort of a

24 row here, and a little later I'm talking about what happened at the

25 barracks. So I would not really be very adamant about this sentence as

Page 9827

1 providing a definition. It's in more general terms that I'm discussing

2 this situation. He came there, he read out names from that list, and

3 those people were eventually returned. They were sent back to the

4 hospital. That's what I'm saying here. I didn't know this at the time.

5 There are certain inaccuracies in this statement. Inaccuracies

6 about things that I said at the time, but not based on my own experience.

7 It was actually later on that I learned that those people had been sent

8 back to the hospital, which was, in fact, true, but which I didn't know at

9 the time.

10 When I give evidence before a court, I normally get specific

11 questions and I try to provide specific answers.

12 Q. Thank you very much. As their security, I'm quoting you, what

13 exactly did you mean by that, regardless of any possible interpretation?

14 Did you imply that he was a member of the Security Service?

15 A. No, I wasn't implying that. I was implying providing security

16 right there. I wasn't implying that he was a member of any service or

17 anything. I am unfamiliar with any military services.

18 Q. And secondly, what about your statement on the 27th of March,

19 1996? Have you got that? The OTP can follow, I'm sure. This is page 9.

20 You said the captain was wearing a leather jacket. Do you remember that,

21 sir? Do you remember stating that?

22 A. You said the interpretation was erroneous because it wasn't a dark

23 red jacket, it was a leather jacket.

24 Q. Let me clarify this, Witness. It's not a poor translation, the

25 statement that I'm showing you. It was the interpretation that I was

Page 9828

1 receiving a while ago. In this Rule 61 statement, you were quite

2 specific, you said Captain Radic was wearing a leather jacket?

3 A. That's fine, but I do need to go back to that statement. If I

4 could please have a copy made available to me.

5 Q. Again, we do have a copy. The statement was given on the 27th of

6 March, 1996.

7 A. I don't have it in my set of documents. Can I please be allowed

8 to receive a copy?

9 Q. This one is in English. Can you use that or not? I'll give you a

10 copy anyway. There you go. Even a glancing look will easily reveal to

11 you that the reference there is to a leather jacket.

12 A. I don't remember saying that it was a leather jacket. It's

13 possible that there was some confusion about the colour.

14 Q. Just to keep this straight, can we please have this placed on the

15 ELMO. Therefore, everybody can see for themselves that the reference here

16 is to a leather jacket as being worn by that person.

17 This is the fourth sentence down the page. It's a very brief

18 answer. Number 3. I've had this shown to the OTP and to the Chamber. My

19 question: "Was he wearing a monochrome military uniform or, in fact, a

20 dark red beret? Which is true? You stated all these things, which is

21 true?"

22 A. As for the barracks and the bus, I still see his face, his

23 appearance in my mind clearly. I was under the impression that this was a

24 leather jacket, but I may, in fact, have been talking about the colour

25 here. It may have been a leather jacket, but then maybe not. If we're

Page 9829

1 talking about when this person got on the bus, then it must be the same

2 person, right.

3 Q. I was asking you about the jacket, not about the person.

4 A. The leather was maroon, dark brown, verging on grey and greenish.

5 Q. Are you trying to say that he was not wearing one of those

6 monochrome military uniforms?

7 A. This jacket may as well have been part of a uniform.

8 Q. Thank you. Did you see anyone else outside the hospital wearing a

9 uniform consisting of a leather jacket, the top and the bottoms a

10 different item of clothing? Did you perhaps notice anyone else within the

11 hospital compound wearing an attire as motley as this and still a member

12 of the JNA?

13 A. No, not within the barracks.

14 Q. What about the hospital compound?

15 A. No, not within the hospital compound either. It was -- it wasn't

16 before the next day that I actually clapped eyes on a person wearing that

17 sort of clothes.

18 Q. Thank you very much.

19 We shall no longer be requiring this on our screens.

20 We have established that there were a large number of persons on

21 the bus outside the hospital, many of whom have testified before this

22 Trial Chamber. The Trial Chamber is familiar with their names, is privy

23 to their names. I will comply with our established practice and will not

24 be giving you the names of all these witnesses who testified to the same

25 circumstances as our present witness. I will be using transcript

Page 9830

1 reference numbers to point you in the right direction.

2 There is a particular witness who testified before this Court.

3 The reference for the Chamber and the OTP is page 5279, line 21. The

4 transcript date is the 1st of March, 2006. The statement -- or the

5 evidence reads as follows: "Once we had been searched, I heard Major

6 Sljivancanin say that we should all get on the buses. It was an order

7 that he issued."

8 The question was: "Who was the order issued to?"

9 And the witness answered: "A man who didn't appear to have a rank

10 and must have been aged about 40."

11 As for the situation in the barracks after the hospital, on 5459,

12 line 6, the question was: "Do you remember anyone getting on the bus and

13 calling their names out?"

14 And the witness answers: "Not as far as I remember. No one read

15 any names out. There were no lists there. Nothing."

16 This is a witness who appears to have been on the same bus as you.

17 It's a fact which is still to be tried by the Trial Chamber.

18 The next reference is 6330, line 7, the transcript date is the

19 20th of March, 2006:

20 "Q. There were these two men you say were in charge of the entire

21 operation of searching the people there and of separating them off. Do

22 you know who these two men were? Do you know their names?

23 "A. No idea."

24 Page 6335, line 1, further down, the same witness says in relation

25 to the barracks: "Two soldiers got on the bus, one of them was carrying a

Page 9831

1 list from which he read out names. I can't remember whether any of the

2 people inside my bus were taken off. I did notice, however, that people

3 from the other buses were, in fact, taken off. Those two soldiers, can

4 you describe which group they might have belonged to?"

5 And then the witness answers: "The JNA. They were JNA men."

6 So this other witness mentioned no officers, just two soldiers,

7 not a word about an officer wearing a leather jacket. If indeed there had

8 been one, he certainly could not have been identified as a member of the

9 JNA; this is at least what the Defence claims.

10 On 3240, line 4, dated the 25th of January, 2006, that's the next

11 reference, the witness says: "Yes, at the time this JNA major was in

12 charge of the entire operation. Everything that happened was being

13 supervised by him and was done pursuant to his orders."

14 Further down the page the witness explains that this was Major

15 Sljivancanin. On page -- I won't be quoting the whole page for you, since

16 that's not necessary for you at all.

17 On 3240, line 20, the question reads:

18 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this -- this was at

19 one of the hearings where a lot of things weren't clear, even the

20 Presiding Judge Parker stepped in to make sure that everything was

21 clarified.

22 Q. So then we have the following dialogue on that page:

23 "Q. Did you see any other JNA officer wearing a uniform at the

24 time?

25 "A. At the time, I did not see any other JNA officer. However, it

Page 9832

1 was later on that I found out from the detainees who were in the camp with

2 me that there had been another officer within the hospital compound. He

3 was a lieutenant and he was involved in the searches conducted by the

4 soldiers and in escorting people to the buses."

5 The same witness, on page 3248, lines 4 through 20, stated as

6 follows. The question was:

7 "Q. You mentioned that officer who got on the bus. I think you

8 used the word 'lieutenant.' Who was that lieutenant? Was he familiar

9 from before?

10 "A. I don't know who the man was. I couldn't get a proper look at

11 him. He stood at the front door of the bus. He was the officer who was

12 in charge of lining people up, of searching people, and physically taking

13 prisoners to the buses.

14 "Q. Can I try to clarify this situation, just to avoid any

15 misunderstanding. You say that you found a major there, you found out his

16 name was Major Sljivancanin, as well as this lieutenant. But that was

17 earlier at the hospital, whereas here you mention a lieutenant as being on

18 that bus. What everybody would dearly like to know is whether this

19 lieutenant you saw on the bus was the same as the one you had previously

20 seen at the hospital. Can you perhaps help us with that?

21 "A. Yes.

22 "Q. Well --

23 So I think this was Mr. Moore's question, if I remember

24 correctly.

25 "A. It was the same man."

Page 9833

1 And now, Witness, in addition to these three witnesses there are

2 another three, a total of six witnesses in relation to the bus, P-009,

3 P-012, and another witness who I believe you have referred to yourself;

4 I'm not repeating his name here. Not outside the hospital, not outside

5 the buses, not in the barracks, not one of them ever heard that there was

6 another captain, Captain Radic, standing next to Major Sljivancanin. Nor

7 did anyone hear anyone else calling out for Captain Radic to go and search

8 you and yet you were together in all these different places.

9 All right. Having confronted you with all of this, my question to

10 you is: Do you stand by your previous statement, or is there perhaps a

11 trace of uncertainty now? Are you perhaps now no longer sure that this

12 person was Captain Radic?

13 A. Sljivancanin was addressing the man standing next to him as

14 Captain Radic. He did this more than once.

15 Q. So you abide by what you said?

16 A. Yes, I do.

17 Q. As you abide by this claim, I have submitted this statement to

18 Your Honours, pages 13 and 14, I have also delivered it to the OTP. It is

19 a statement made in March 1993. Excuse me, I don't think these have been

20 handed over.

21 MR. MOORE: We haven't got any document.

22 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Moore, do you have it now?

23 MR. MOORE: It's the Canadian document, and I can return it.

24 Thank you very much.

25 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Although the witness does have this

Page 9834

1 document, and we have established that the Court has it also, would you

2 please find -- this is the first statement officially made by the witness,

3 and it refers to the following. The witness says: "On the 20th of

4 November" --

5 A. Could you please give me the page number?

6 Q. I said pages 13 and 14.

7 On the 20th of November, 1991, in the morning, as you stated on

8 page 13, first they took out some people on the list and so on and so

9 forth. And then you said the following, and I think you underlined it.

10 (redacted) "Then an order was issued by a JNA officer

11 over there. I don't know what his rank or name was. That all men should

12 go outside. He lined us up there in rows. We were searched twice in

13 detail. We were searched by two younger soldiers, which means they were

14 conscripts doing their regular military service. Sljivancanin was

15 coordinating this."

16 So you said he was coordinating it and another one was issuing the

17 order for the search. You said that you did not know the rank or the name

18 of the officer who issued that order. That's what you told the Canadian

19 investigators.

20 My question is the following: Why did you not then say what you

21 told the Court in great detail yesterday? Why did you not help those

22 investigators establish who this other officer was and he is very

23 important? You only said that you do not know his name or his rank, and

24 it was only six months later, making a statement in Croatia, that you said

25 this was Captain Radic, and then you went on repeating this, and this

Page 9835

1 exacerbates his position.

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: [Previous translation continues] ...

9 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] All right. Thank you.

10 Q. What do you say about the statement which you made then?

11 A. The statement was made, and you can see there are parts here which

12 are inaudible, and on page 13 --

13 Q. Leave aside the inaudible parts. I have been very clear.

14 A. I would be very clear if you did not interrupt me.

15 MR. MOORE: I wonder if the witness could be allowed to answer the

16 question.

17 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: It's a fair comment, Mr. Moore.

18 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] My question was did he mention

19 Captain Radic anywhere in that statement, or did he, when a precise

20 question was put to him, say that he did not know the name or the rank of

21 the person participating those activities, whereas later on he identified

22 him as Captain Radic.

23 A. Captain Radic's name is not mentioned anywhere in this statement,

24 but there is no direct question either asking me whether I knew the name

25 of the person issuing the order. I was not faced with that question,

Page 9836

1 which is why I did not reply to it.

2 Q. Very well. That's your response. In that same statement when you

3 said, and you confirmed this today, that a bus with husbands and relatives

4 of the medical staff was released, as you learned later nowhere in the

5 statement to the Canadian investigators or here do you mention Captain

6 Radic in connection with the barracks. Can we agree that this is not

7 there in your statement?

8 A. Yes, we can agree.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think it is time for

11 lunch and to give the interpreters a rest.

12 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you, Mr. Radic [sic].

13 We will now have a lunch break that will last until a quarter

14 to 2.00.

15 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

16 --- On resuming at 1.49 p.m.

17 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Good afternoon. I see Mr. Smith on his

18 feet.

19 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour. Good afternoon.

20 This is just a brief scheduling matter. I received some

21 information this morning in relation to the next witness and the Defence's

22 concerns about their ability to cross-examine him this week.

23 Just to clarify one matter, in relation to the material that was

24 disclosed to the Defence, the Prosecution admits that some very

25 significant material was disclosed to the Defence on Friday and that was

Page 9837

1 addressed with Judge Parker in Chambers; and then on Monday one further

2 document, which was a list in relation to 16 people; and then on Tuesday a

3 map was disclosed, just a very simple map. But as far as the issue of

4 whether or not the bulk of material was disclosed by the Prosecution on

5 Monday or whether it was disclosed on Friday, I've spoken with my learned

6 friend, Mr. Lukic, and it's quite clear, and he's had a re-look at his

7 disclosed materials, and I think he accepts that the material, the bulk of

8 the material was, in fact, disclosed on the Friday.

9 The meeting with Judge Parker was on the basis that if the Defence

10 had any issues or problems with cross-examining this accused -- sorry,

11 this witness in relation to the new material, that we could clarify that.

12 And as a result of that meeting, as you know, this witness and the next

13 witness were swapped in the order of appearance to give the Defence more

14 time to prepare for cross-examination.

15 The Prosecution are prepared to proceed with the next witness.

16 However, the Prosecution's concern is if cross-examination is delayed

17 until a later date because, even as of this date they say that they are

18 not in a position to cross-examine him on the new material, we would ask

19 that the examination and the cross-examination be kept together, because

20 the material, in fact, was new to the Prosecution as much as it was to the

21 Defence. We only received that on Friday. However, we only received

22 notice today that the Defence perhaps would like further time to

23 cross-examine.

24 We assumed that the witness would be heard this week. The witness

25 has some pressing issues back in Croatia. So if, in fact, the

Page 9838

1 cross-examination was put off, we would ask that they be put off together,

2 because he kindly accepted to be -- to being placed out of order last week

3 as a result of what had happened. But the Defence have one particular

4 issue, I think, in relation to the basis of the charts and tables that

5 were presented to the Defence and would be led in court, and perhaps they

6 will explain more clearly that they would like the underlying

7 documentation in relation to do that. The underlying documentation in

8 relation to people killed, missing, detained, expelled in relation to

9 Mr. Grujic's report, would be enormous. Absolutely enormous. And the

10 question is there needs to be a compromise, I would submit, between

11 presenting the picture through the statistics by this witness and only

12 having relevant documentation provided to the Defence. But perhaps the

13 Defence may be able to clarify.


15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the first matter of

16 principle is this: The Defence does not wish for any postponement in the

17 trial, and up to now we were prepared on many points to cross-examine this

18 witness. You now find yourselves in the situation where you do not know

19 what the position of the parties is. Perhaps I'm going to take a bit of

20 your time, but I think it's important.

21 We have had excellent cooperation with Mr. Smith so far concerning

22 problems and various solutions to problems. The main portion of material

23 arrived on Friday. We received it on Monday with ERN numbers, but what

24 concerns us is what arrived on Friday.

25 When we had a meeting with Judge Parker, in that meeting we told

Page 9839

1 him that at that point in time we didn't know anything about the material.

2 We had no information concerning it except for what Mr. Smith told us just

3 before the meeting. What is truly worrying for us is that we want to find

4 an efficient solution.

5 As for Mr. Grujic, two weeks ago we received material which was

6 related to his main expertise and his testimony in the Milosevic trial,

7 then in the Martic case, and we also received some charts. What we

8 received on Friday and several days prior to that, I think on the 22nd

9 and 26th, and this is something that Mr. Smith can confirm for you, places

10 the expert report of Mr. Grujic in a situation where it becomes of crucial

11 importance, because Mr. Grujic has now started analysing the status of

12 persons, their position, and he embarked on a completely new analysis

13 concerning the persons who were moved from the area of Vukovar. And this

14 is the material that we received on Friday.

15 He now submits to us the results which were compiled by his

16 office, and these results are truly important. So far in our

17 cross-examination you have an able to see what they pertain to. So we

18 have only the results, but we do not have sources based on which these

19 results were based. This now relates to a certain period of time.

20 We spoke to Mr. Smith, and we said that this would open Pandora's

21 box if we now asked for thousands and thousands of pages to be delivered

22 to us. We do not wish this. We wish to find a compromise. And as a

23 result of that we suggested for the examination-in-chief of Mr. Grujic to

24 commence, even perhaps the cross-examination to commence. However, we

25 will be unable to get a lot of answers, and that in turn would open

Page 9840

1 Pandora's box. Mr. Smith can confirm this to you.

2 We have received charts so far where Mr. Grujic put in the number

3 of civilians, the number of defenders, the number of refugees. So we have

4 these results, but we cannot verify the sources for these results. And

5 this is what concerns us right now.

6 My colleagues and I discussed this at length. We are prepared to

7 have Mr. Grujic start testifying, but there is this problem that we

8 thought it was our duty to inform you about if we embark on a detailed

9 analysis of his testimony.

10 So, once again, we are prepared to have this witness come into the

11 courtroom, but in the last few days completely new material was delivered

12 to us, and this is something that Mr. Smith can confirm.

13 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Mr. Lukic, may I ask you what was agreed

14 upon with Judge Parker was about the bulk of the documents except for

15 those, the witness statement and the map that were you given yesterday.

16 So at that moment in time your estimate was that you were going to be able

17 to cross-examine within the two days that are available this week. Is

18 that correct? Yes.

19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We had a very constructive, albeit

20 abstract conversation with Judge Parker. At that point in time when we

21 were talking to him, we didn't know what was to be disclosed to us that

22 afternoon. We did not receive that material until after the conversation.

23 Once we received it, we informed Mr. Smith and Judge Parker that this new

24 material pertained to the persons who were from the indictment but were

25 found in different graves, which was a new and significant fact.

Page 9841

1 As for the information submitted to us, as Mr. Grujic's lists that

2 pertain to his final results for those who were killed, expelled,

3 detained, and so on, from the municipality of Vukovar, at the time, at the

4 relevant time I had no such information available to me. We discussed

5 only 15 persons. That was what we discussed with Judge Parker. And we

6 agreed to have a change in the scheduling of witnesses at that time.

7 However, now, after we have been able to study this material, we

8 now fear that a lot of new questions can emerge from this, and I would

9 like for Mr. Smith to confirm this.

10 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: I'm sorry, Mr. Smith. But in the time

11 you have had so far -- let me put it differently. You are sort of, in

12 terms of a compromise, waving the possibility to see the whole set of

13 underlying set of materials, so what you were then going to do anyway, if

14 we would have cross-examination next week, was to base yourself on the

15 material that you have now in your -- at your disposal, and you are saying

16 that this is something you can't do by Friday, basically, that's the

17 problem.

18 Mr. Smith.

19 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 No, I do confirm Mr. Lukic's point that the material that was

21 given to the Defence on Friday was very significant in relation to the

22 case, and they hadn't received that material before that. We handed it to

23 the Defence as soon as we received it.

24 In relation to the material they received on Monday, it wasn't a

25 witness statement, it was a list of 15 names in relation to one grave

Page 9842

1 site.

2 If the Defence had happy to commence cross-examination of this

3 witness immediately after the examination-in-chief, if that's what I

4 believe Mr. Lukic had said, the Prosecution would be quite obviously

5 prepared to start.

6 As far as underlying material being provided by the Prosecution to

7 the Defence, in previous cases of this type, because the amount of

8 underlying material can be so great in relation to statistics of this

9 type, sometimes it's just unreasonable in terms of resources to be able to

10 do that. Maybe a compromise could be that if the cross-examination --

11 they hear the evidence in chief, if the cross-examination commences, and

12 then subject to that cross-examination Your Honours might either determine

13 whether it would be appropriate for underlying material to be provided to

14 the Defence or not. Because it could become an endless exercise in

15 that -- to that degree.

16 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Is there a reason, Mr. Smith, why we have

17 received this material only now?

18 MR. SMITH: The material -- there is, in the sense that when the

19 expert report was filed with the court, it was an expert report that was

20 used in the Milosevic case and the Martic case that related to Croatia

21 more generally. As a result of scheduling of the witness, the expert

22 report was reviewed, and it was realised it was deficient in terms of the

23 material in relation to Eastern Slavonia in this case. So, in that sense,

24 there is a lateness on the Prosecution in that regard, but as soon as we

25 received it we handed it to the Defence.

Page 9843

1 And one thing we might add, is the witness, I think it's been

2 discussed already, cannot attend court next week. He would have to come

3 back -- he can come back on the 12th. But we're happy to start the

4 examination-in-chief, if the cross-examination would follow immediately

5 after.

6 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: This Trial Chamber has to reconcile the

7 interests of a fair trial with the need of an expedient trial as well in

8 the interests of justice. So I think it's in everyone's best interests

9 that we continue with the examination-in-chief.

10 I see, Mr. Smith, that the time that you have scheduled is four

11 hours. If perhaps you could try to reduce a little bit on that time, and

12 the Defence could, from its side, try to organise themselves in the very

13 efficient manner that they have been organising themselves so far, maybe

14 we could try to see where we get on Friday. And if it doesn't work, then

15 we will reconsider the issue and decide accordingly.

16 MR. SMITH: I will do. I will start cutting my questions now,

17 Your Honours. Would Mr. Grujic be starting first thing tomorrow morning

18 or would you expect him to be starting this afternoon, just to be able to

19 advise him?

20 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: If possible, this at afternoon, but that

21 obviously depends on the rest of the cross-examination.

22 So Mr. Borovic, Mr. Lukic.

23 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Let me just

24 remember where we left it off.

25 Q. A question for the witness --

Page 9844

1 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: [Previous translation continues] ... do

2 you think that you may, you and Mr. Lukic, finish the cross-examination in

3 such a way this afternoon that we can stall call upon the witness or, in

4 the alternative, that we have to schedule him for tomorrow morning?

5 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] My question is yes, as far as I'm

6 concerned. I don't know about Mr. Lukic. I don't know how long he will

7 take. I believe that we will conclude today, because I won't take long.


9 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe that my

10 cross-examination will take an hour and 15 minutes. Could be less, but to

11 be on the cautious side I would say what I said.

12 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Well, it seems, Mr. Smith, that we won't

13 be able to call the witness. So let's schedule him for tomorrow morning.

14 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.


16 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

17 In the documents disclosed by the OTP to the Defence there are two

18 documents, one of which I provided to the Chamber but with two ERN

19 numbers, which are 0357-1712, and the other one is 0357-7958. As regards

20 this document, I would like to put several questions to the witness, but

21 prior to that I would like to establish what he knows from these

22 documents.

23 Q. My first question is: Do you know Igor Kacic?

24 A. I used to know him.

25 Q. Thank you. Emil Cakalic?

Page 9845

1 A. I know him.

2 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Mr. Borovic, I'm afraid the Chamber is

3 not with you. Those documents, what are you referring to? Is this the

4 last, 1993?

5 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] I submitted it to the registry, to

6 the Chamber. That's the second document. In this set of documents there

7 are two documents.

8 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: [Previous translation continues] ...

9 sorry for interrupting you, Mr. Borovic.

10 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] I almost started criticising my

11 colleague here.

12 Q. My question to the witness: Do you know Kemo, the Albanian who

13 was the member of the ZNG?

14 A. Yes, Kemal Saiti. I used to know him.

15 Q. What about Zvonko Vulic?

16 A. I knew him.

17 Q. What was his nickname?

18 A. Salas.

19 Q. Thank you. What about Professor Ivo Matic?

20 A. Yes.

21 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I submitted the

22 English version to the Chamber, so you should have it. Thank you.

23 Q. This statement that the usher just gave you has all of these

24 names, and these are allegedly the names that you provided to the person

25 who wrote the statement together with you. So I wanted to check whether

Page 9846

1 you were the source of information for these names, because that's what it

2 says in the heading. And I would like for you to confirm it.

3 And based on that, Your Honours, I am now putting to the witness

4 this document, and I will ask him to read out the fourth line of this

5 document.

6 A. Am I supposed to read it out?

7 Q. Yes, please.

8 A. "In the hospital compound they put them into buses, into six

9 buses. Officer Sljivancanin was present there. He later became a

10 general. And there was another officer Simic there? Not sure that that

11 was his name."

12 Q. Thank you. Do you see that in this official note you say that in

13 the -- you say the hospital and then the barracks, and then you mention

14 the person who was taken out of the barracks, but nowhere do you mention

15 Captain Radic. You only mention Officer Sljivancanin, this is beyond

16 dispute, and Officer Simic.

17 So if I were to tell you that it is the position of the Defence

18 that the commander of the military police company Simic was the one who

19 secured the hospital on the 20th, together with the military police

20 company, and that they were the ones frisking you, would you then, in this

21 third attempt, perhaps start doubting your statement about Captain Radic?

22 A. I don't see the date.

23 Q. I didn't ask about that. Just leave this be for the time being.

24 A. Yes, but may I answer your question?

25 Q. I'll try to be clearer to begin with so as not to confuse you.

Page 9847

1 Regardless of the fact that there is no date on the face of this

2 document, regardless of the fact that the only name being mentioned there

3 is your name, this is an official note that the OTP has served on the

4 Defence. Fortunately for us there is information indicated here which you

5 provided. The officer who was right there in addition to Sljivancanin was

6 Officer Simic, rather than Captain Radic.

7 What I'm telling you is that on the 20th of November, and there

8 will be a lot of Defence witnesses to corroborate this, Simic was an

9 officer of the military police company. Is this clear enough? That is

10 the position of Captain Radic's Defence. Would that affect your testimony

11 that the person you saw there was Captain Radic then?

12 A. It's possible that Officer Simic was there, but that does not in

13 any way affect the heart of this matter. Because Sljivancanin was

14 addressing the man standing next to him as Captain Radic. I heard that

15 loud and clear.

16 Q. My next question. You said you didn't do your regular military

17 service with the JNA, right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Although you didn't serve your term with the JNA, do you know that

20 officers are only addressed by using their ranks but never their names?

21 That's what all the rules say. If it really had been the case what you

22 have told the Court, Captain Radic, do this or do that, it would follow

23 logically from your statement for Captain Radic to say, I understand

24 comrade, Major Sljivancanin, which would never, possibly not even then, be

25 the case in the JNA. There's one reason for you.

Page 9848

1 Another reason. A while ago, and this is evidence too, you drew

2 Sljivancanin and Radic, their respective positions, as standing next to

3 each other.

4 MR. MOORE: With the utmost respect to my learned friend, I have

5 no objection to questions being asked on the relevant material but it's

6 not a case for my learned friend to give either explanations or attempt to

7 give evidence in relation to the issue. In my submission, that's what

8 he's trying to do.

9 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Proceed, Mr. Borovic.

10 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. All I'm trying to do is

11 be as fair as possible in telling the witness that certain circumstances

12 are just not possible. We shall have our own military experts testifying

13 to that. I'm just trying to show that there could have been no such

14 communication. On the other hand, we have had a photograph admitted into

15 evidence showing Sljivancanin and Radic standing next to each other side

16 by side, as the witness said.

17 Q. My question: Would there be any reason for someone who is

18 standing next to you to be addressed five times in a row as Captain Radic,

19 Captain Radic, Captain Radic? He wasn't calling to him over a great

20 distance. The man was standing right there, let's face it.

21 A. I don't know how officers address one another in the JNA. I'm

22 entirely unfamiliar with that. As for the first part of your question.

23 Secondly, I'm only telling you what I saw while I was there, what

24 I heard. Sljivancanin addressed the man standing next to him as Captain

25 Radic. I'm not sure if that's by the book or not. I know that this was

Page 9849

1 the case. He said this a couple of times. He repeated this just because

2 there were quite a number of people that needed frisking. I suppose that

3 was the reason why he addressed Captain Radic several times, not just

4 once.

5 Q. I'm not going back to the fact that none of these witnesses who

6 might have had reason to blame Captain Radic never said they'd seen him

7 anywhere near the buses or in the hospital. But let me just refer again

8 to your statement, what you said the first time around during your

9 evidence to a Croatian court in a statement that I've quoted from, right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did any of the Croatian authorities, Croatian police, or anyone

12 from the Croatian judiciary ever show you any photographs of the men that

13 stand accused here before this Tribunal?

14 A. I don't remember.

15 Q. Do you think there is a possibility that they may have shown you

16 photographs?

17 A. I don't think anyone in Croatia has ever shown me any photographs

18 of the accused.

19 Q. Perhaps some other people or officials did show you photographs?

20 A. No. I think it was actually officials of this Tribunal who showed

21 me the photographs.

22 Q. You mean the OTP, not necessarily the Tribunal as a whole?

23 A. Yes, I mean the OTP. I mean their investigators.

24 Q. Just one photograph or several?

25 A. Several.

Page 9850

1 Q. Thank you. Would you please be kind enough to say how many and

2 just whose photographs?

3 A. Perhaps as many as two photographs of Captain Radic and one or two

4 photographs of Major Sljivancanin.

5 Q. Thank you. I will not go into the technical aspects of this

6 situation, but when the investigators showed you these two photographs,

7 you know what the rules are in the whole wide world for situations like

8 these when someone is being formally identified via a photograph. They

9 should have shown you quite a number of different photographs, including a

10 photograph of the accused. It's some sort of a line-up, and we all know

11 how that is done by the book. There have to be a lot of different faces

12 and you have to pick one. Is this how they did it?

13 A. They did show me a great number of photographs, all sorts of

14 photographs, and then once I have ID-ed the accused, they showed me some

15 photographs of the accused.

16 Q. When you identified Captain Radic, the accused, how exactly did

17 this work? Did they place on the table in front of you a large number of

18 different photographs showing different people, asking you to pick out

19 Captain Radic or did they just show you his photograph asking you to

20 identify him?

21 A. I think they only showed me his photograph, but this occurred 10

22 years ago, so my memory of the event may not be perfectly accurate.

23 Q. Perfectly accurate in relation to what?

24 A. If they showed me this 10 years ago, I can no longer quite

25 remember if there was just one photograph being shown or several.

Page 9851

1 Q. Do you perhaps -- are you inclined to believe that there was just

2 one or are you inclined to believe that there were several?

3 A. Later on at a later stage there was just one, but I can't say what

4 the case was originally, whether there was one or many being shown.

5 Q. My apologies, Your Honours. I'm not pressing this further.

6 When was this one photograph being shown to you?

7 A. There was this one time that I was interviewed where this one

8 photograph was being shown, and then perhaps several different photographs

9 were shown at a later stage.

10 Q. Whose photographs, these other photographs?

11 A. After several different photographs were shown, then individual

12 photographs were shown, and those were photographs showing Captain Radic.

13 Q. Who else was depicted in these photographs that you were shown in

14 addition to Mr. Radic?

15 A. People whose faces meant nothing to me.

16 Q. Thank you. In relation to what happened in Vukovar and the

17 accused, the only photographs that you were shown were photographs of

18 Captain Radic, right?

19 A. Yes, as far as I remember.

20 Q. These other photographs that you have mentioned, you are starting

21 to modify your initial answer, and I am sorry, I don't think I can

22 possibly give up on this now. You say there might have been several

23 different photographs being shown of several people, and you say the faces

24 were unfamiliar. What did these people look like; do you remember that?

25 A. I have no idea what these other people looked like. They do

Page 9852

1 appear to me to have been wearing uniforms in those photographs, but I

2 couldn't possibly be more specific about what they looked like.

3 Q. Fair enough. Thank you. At any stage during your evidence did

4 members of the security and intelligence service of the Croatian state

5 take part, the SIS or the HIS people, Croatian intelligence service, at

6 any stage during your proofing for your testimony here or during the time

7 when the indictment was still in the pipeline?

8 A. No. At no time was I approached by anyone like that, or at least

9 the people that did approach me did not introduce themselves me in this

10 way.

11 Q. If these people did not introduce themselves in this way, who was

12 it that you worked with while being proofed for your testimony here in

13 The Hague?

14 A. I was not prepared by anyone for my testimony here. None of the

15 official Croatian bodies.

16 Q. Thank you very much.

17 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we now please go

18 into private session briefly.


20 [Private session]

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 9853











11 Pages 9853-9860 redacted. Private session.















Page 9861

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 [Open session]

22 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

23 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I

24 apologise once again for not stating this right away.

25 But here is our position. On the 20th, in the hospital, Captain

Page 9862

1 Radic did not take part in any selection process, in any issuing of orders

2 to frisk the person entering buses. Captain Miroslav Radic did not write

3 any lists, nor was he at any point in time in the barracks in Vukovar,

4 especially not on the 20th of November, 1991.

5 At the time Captain Miroslav Radic was 29 and not 35 to 40, as you

6 described in some statements. Captain Miroslav Radic is not 180

7 centimetres tall, but rather 192 centimetres. Captain Miroslav Radic

8 never had a dark red beret, and he always wore a uniform. He never ever

9 wore the leather jacket, which is perhaps a minor detail. This means that

10 we challenge your evidence in its -- in all of its portions.

11 You were a member of the ZNG, and you were influenced by the

12 Croatian media and Croatian organs, and you invented what you said here.

13 The film that I asked you about called "100 Days of Vukovar,"

14 which was adduced into evidence here, depicts an officer with a helmet and

15 moustache uttering the words, "Vukovar must fall tonight." The Croatian

16 media, for years, while showing that movie, stated that that was Captain

17 Radic. All of these are manipulations and you fell victim to them too.

18 This person on the footage is not Captain Radic but another person, and

19 all of this is known to the Trial Chamber because we provided the name of

20 that person to the Trial Chamber when adducing evidence.

21 So I am telling you now that it was only Captain Simic who could

22 have been in front of the hospital doing things that you described. This

23 means that you either malevolently or by virtue of being in error did what

24 you did to implicate the accused, and you did that by providing this

25 information.

Page 9863

1 That's all I have to say to you. Thank you.

2 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you, Mr. Borovic.

3 Mr. Bulatovic.

4 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Good

5 afternoon to everyone.

6 Cross-examination by Mr. Bulatovic:

7 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.

8 A. Good afternoon.

9 Q. I am Momcilo Bulatovic, one of the Defence counsel of Veselin

10 Sljivancanin. On behalf of Mr. Sljivancanin's Defence team, I will be

11 putting questions to you now. I will do my best not to repeat the

12 questions put previously by my friends, unless I need to clarify something

13 for my own benefit. I would like to ask you to wait before answering my

14 questions so that we do not compromise your identity and protective

15 measures.

16 A. All right.

17 Q. As you were answering the questions of Mr. Borovic you mentioned

18 some photographs which were shown to you by investigators and so on. A

19 statement was written, was drafted by The Hague investigators on the 19th

20 of June, 1995. Please tell me: Was a note compiled or a statement about

21 photographs being shown to you? And, if so, which ones?

22 A. I don't remember.

23 Q. Do you remember how many photographs were shown to you? You said

24 a large number. Do you remember from what period of time these

25 photographs were? Were they photographs of uniformed men, civilian and so

Page 9864

1 on?

2 A. As far as I remember, there were several photographs of men in

3 uniforms.

4 Q. Were those individual or group photographs?

5 A. I don't remember.

6 Q. Do you remember whether any video footage was shown to you as

7 well?

8 A. I don't remember that any video footage was shown to me. If you

9 are now referring to the 19th of June, 1995.

10 Q. Yes, precisely the date that I was interested in. As I see that

11 you keep referring to the 19th of June, 1995, questioning whether that's

12 what I have in mind, and knowing that Mr. Borovic put questions to you as

13 to whether you were prepped for testimony by SIS and HIS, you said that

14 no, you were not prepared in any way.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. But the way you phrased it could indicate that you were perhaps

17 prepped for some other testimony?

18 A. Yes. Some video footage was shown to me when I came here in 1998.

19 It was shown to me by officials of this Tribunal.

20 Q. Do you remember what case it was?

21 A. Dokmanovic.

22 Q. You testified before courts in Croatia in two cases. One was the

23 case versus Veljko Kadijevic in the cantonal court in Zagreb; and the

24 other one was in the Osijek court in the case against Vuletic, Ivica; is

25 that right?

Page 9865

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Before testifying there in these cases, did you have any

3 discussions with any members of any Croatian bodies, organs, and was any

4 material shown to you?

5 A. I never talked to any Croatian officials, not while preparing to

6 testify, and not in relation to these events. Before these two instances

7 when I testified, I never talked to anyone, either Croatian

8 representatives or any international official, so I didn't talk to anyone.

9 I received notice to appear to testify, and as provided by the Croatian

10 law, I went to court to testify.

11 Q. Did you talk to any media representatives before or after your

12 testimony?

13 A. Which one? Which testimony?

14 Q. Any of your testimonies and any of the instances where you gave

15 statements. Both statements given to the OTP investigators in the

16 Dokmanovic case, when you gave statements to the commission for detained

17 persons, and when you testified in Osijek, in Zagreb, and when you were

18 interviewed by the judge from Belgrade?

19 A. The only time was in 1993. And that was a statement I gave to the

20 ITN, a British media outlet, and also a portion was given to the HTV,

21 Croatian television.

22 Q. Can you tell me what was the reason for you giving statements?

23 A. The British officials contacted me first. They wanted to

24 establish the truth; that was back in 1993. Nothing was known about those

25 people. And these men came to me with some information and they said that

Page 9866

1 in order to put the whole process into action, to establish the truth, was

2 for me to testify. You know, what the journalists normally tell you. And

3 it was then that I gave a statement. I think that the gentleman who

4 interviewed me was called Terry Lloyd. And after this was made public, I

5 was invited by the HTV to come to a programme called Slikom na Sliku where

6 the host was Mr. Kopljar and that was the only media appearance. The

7 reason for that was that I wanted to have the truth established about what

8 happened to those people.

9 Q. Let me ask you: In 1993, and we all know that the events at

10 Ovcara occurred in 1991?

11 A. That's correct.

12 Q. Why did you keep silent for two years and wait for some sort of

13 ITN to turn up with some sort of information instead of approaching some

14 Croatian or international services to report what you knew about Ovcara?

15 A. My first statement was made immediately after I arrived in

16 Croatia. It was made to Mr. Lavoslav Bosanac. As far as I know, he did

17 not record it, and that happened right after I arrived in Croatia. So I

18 did not wait for two years. I immediately spoke out. And you asked me

19 about the media, this was my first and only testimony in the media.

20 Q. Let's move on to this statement that you made to Lavoslav Bosanac,

21 which was not recorded. How did you come into contact with him? Did you

22 call him, did he call you, did anyone mediate in this, why did you go to

23 see him of all people?

24 A. I arrived in Zagreb in order to put some documents in order. I

25 think I wanted to report my arrival to the Vukovar club in Zagreb, and

Page 9867

1 there I heard that the government office for displaced persons was in

2 Zagreb. It was located in a street called Brace Oreski, which is now

3 called Republike Austrije. And I asked who was employed there, and there

4 was some journalist there, Mr. Estereiher, and Mrs. Vukovic, and

5 Mr. Lavoslav Bosanac was also there. I knew him as the husband of

6 Dr. Vesna Bosanac. In this capacity, I thought that he was a suitable

7 person for me to tell the truth to, and he was very surprised at this.

8 That was the first time, as far as I know, that people on the Croatian

9 side heard about Ovcara.

10 Q. On that occasion when you made that statement to him did you write

11 it down in your own hand, or was it just a conversation, an internal one?

12 A. It was just an internal conversation, and then he told me to go to

13 the medical headquarters of the Croatian army, which was in the Maksimir

14 area in Zagreb, and there I made a fuller statement.

15 Q. When you say "fuller," does that imply that it was recorded

16 somehow?

17 A. I don't know whether it was written down or whether there were any

18 transcripts. I did not sign anything to the best of my recollection, and

19 I wouldn't know whether the statement was recorded or not.

20 Q. When speaking to Lavoslav Bosanac and in this medical headquarters

21 in Maksimir, were you alone with the person taking the statement, Mr.

22 Bosanac, in the former case, and I don't know who in the latter, or were

23 more people present?

24 A. In the case of Mr. Bosanac it was just the two of us; whereas, in

25 Maksimir there were several people. The only person I recall is Dr. Juraj

Page 9868

1 Njavro. There were some other people there, but I don't remember who.

2 Q. Now that you mention Dr. Juraj Njavro, what was he doing at the

3 time? Did he have a post or an office in the Croatian government at the

4 time you made the statement?

5 A. I'm not aware of this, but you can check it. It was in February

6 1992. One can check what he was doing at the time.

7 Q. I am asking you whether you know.

8 A. No, I don't know. But I knew his face from Vukovar. He was a

9 doctor from Vukovar.

10 Q. Did you see him in Vukovar Hospital at the time you went there in

11 the way you described before the 19th and throughout the time you visited

12 the hospital from the 15th of September onwards?

13 A. I met him once or twice in passing within the hospital.

14 Q. I'm interested in your departure on the 15th of September. You

15 say you went to Olajnica. (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 A. I think about 500 metres as the crow flies, and 700 metres maybe

18 by road.

19 Q. Did you know anyone at Olajnica when you went to report there,

20 which would mean you had information as to where the headquarters was, or

21 did you go to that shelter and then find there was a staff there and then

22 report? How did your reporting to the defenders of Vukovar happen?

23 A. I came there with my mother, we settled in. And there were a few

24 armed people there. They were defenders and they started keeping guard.

25 I immediately reported saying I wanted to stand guard too. And, when

Page 9869

1 necessary, I volunteered to go to fetch food or water or clothing. We

2 can't really call it a proper headquarters in the nuclear shelter or in

3 Olajnica.

4 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have omitted to

5 mention something. I asked the witness something on page 91, line 7, and

6 it might reveal the identity of the witness, because it mentions the place

7 where he resided.

8 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: [Microphone not activated].

9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

10 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: So let's play it on the safe side and

11 redact it, although I'm not sure it's really necessary, but to play it on

12 the safe side.

13 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 Q. Did you join a unit right away and did that unit belong to some

15 kind of military formation at Olajnica or in Vukovar in general?

16 A. A day or two later I joined my unit in which I remained until the

17 end, and it was part of the 204th Vukovar Brigade of the Croatian army.

18 Q. Do you know who was in command of the 204th Brigade, who was your

19 superior?

20 A. Mile Dedakovic was the brigade commander.

21 Q. We have heard here that you had parts of a uniform, so I would

22 like to know with what you were issued when you joined the unit. We heard

23 something about boots, but did you get any other gear or equipment and, if

24 so, what?

25 A. At the beginning I was not issued with any uniform parts. About a

Page 9870

1 month later I received boots, some caps or hats. We couldn't really call

2 that a uniform. And weapons were issued at night for the needs of the

3 guard.

4 Q. Were you issued with any insignia of the Croatian army and, if so,

5 what insignia?

6 A. I was not issued with any insignia of the Croatian army.

7 Q. In the unit where you were, were there fighters who had uniforms

8 and insignia and, if so, can you describe what kind of uniforms and

9 insignia these were?

10 A. Only the commander had a uniform. It was a complete uniform, and

11 his insignia were a chequer-board emblem on his cap.

12 Q. Were there any other insignia?

13 A. A few of those who had caps would sometimes put the chequer-board

14 coat of arms on them, and a few others had parts of uniforms. We, as a

15 logistics unit, were not issued with uniforms because uniforms were

16 scarce.

17 Q. Answering a question by my colleague, Mr. Vasic, you described how

18 you went to the hospital on the 19th, and you say that the evening before

19 that you took off all your insignia, everything that had to do with the

20 guard, that you discarded your papers, your rosaries and everything else.

21 So what I want to know is how many people removed their chequer-board

22 insignia, how many people destroyed those papers, how many people threw

23 away those rosaries and so on?

24 A. I think it was five or six from that group and a few others from

25 outside.

Page 9871

1 Q. When you say "from outside," who do you mean?

2 A. Who happened to be in Olajnica, and they were not members of that

3 group.

4 Q. What group were they members of?

5 A. They were members of the Croatian army, the 24th Brigade, but not

6 that group.

7 Q. Were all the weapons and all those other things buried in one

8 place or different places?

9 A. I know of only one place. In the sand behind the nuclear shelter

10 at Olajnica.

11 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm looking at my

12 watch. Is it time for a break?

13 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Normally it's at a quarter past, because

14 we started at a quarter to. So we have one hour and a half. But if you

15 would prefer to have it now, we could have it earlier if that suits you,

16 Mr. Bulatovic.

17 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] No, no, Your Honours. I can

18 proceed. It's not a problem. I do apologise.

19 Q. In this group of which you were a member were there special groups

20 laying mines in certain parts of the territory and how many such groups

21 were there, if you know that?

22 A. There were no people laying mines in my group.

23 Q. In that army which was at Olajnica were there groups dealing with

24 that?

25 A. As far as I know, there were no such groups in Olajnica. They

Page 9872

1 were located somewhere else.

2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the name of the

3 place.

4 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Do you know in the Vukovar Hospital area what parts were mined?

6 A. I don't know that any mines were laid around the hospital.

7 Q. I did not say in the hospital; I said around the hospital.

8 A. That's what I said. I don't know that any areas around the

9 hospital were mined.

10 Q. Up to the 20th of November, you say that you visited the Vukovar

11 Hospital on numerous occasions?

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. And you explained the reasons and everything else.

14 What I would like to know is the following: When you were

15 visiting the Vukovar Hospital, did you see any defence commanders, I'm

16 referring specifically to Mr. Dedakovic, in the Vukovar Hospital, and did

17 you see that he had any contacts with the people from the Vukovar

18 Hospital? I'm referring to the staff here, the doctors and so on.

19 A. I never saw Mr. Dedakovic inside the hospital on any of my visits.

20 Q. Have you heard of Borkovic?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can you explain who he was?

23 A. He was the commander of the Vukovar defence after Dedakovic, but I

24 learned that only later. I never saw him in Vukovar.

25 Q. Have you heard of Ivica Arbanas?

Page 9873

1 A. Yes. And I saw him on several occasions.

2 Q. Can you explain who this is and what he was doing in Vukovar?

3 Describe the situations and places where you saw him.

4 A. He was a Croatian soldier. I saw him at Olajnica. He would

5 sometimes come there to rest, because it was relatively quiet there. So

6 he would come there to rest.

7 Q. Where did he rest?

8 A. As far as I know, in a flat in a residential building at Olajnica,

9 as far as I know.

10 Q. Are you aware that your commanding officer, whose name we will not

11 mention, or any of those people maintained contacts with Vesna Bosanac or

12 Dr. Njavro in the Vukovar Hospital?

13 A. I think there was contact with Dr. Vesna Bosanac during the

14 visits. When my group went to visit, there were oral contacts with

15 Dr. Bosanac. We would report what we had brought, when we would bring

16 something else, ask if the hospital needed anything else, and after

17 unloading the food or the clothing we would leave. That is the contact I

18 am referring to.

19 Q. Apart from this immediate contact was there any contact by

20 telephone, radio or in any other way?

21 A. As far as I know, not a single telephone in the town was

22 functioning, and I'm not aware of any radio contacts.

23 Q. When you were interviewed by the Canadians you said that you saw

24 there was no other way out, that it was all over, and that you had to take

25 the civilians to the hospital. Do you remember saying that?

Page 9874

1 A. Will you let me look at the document and then I will be able to

2 confirm.

3 Q. Of course. Look at page 8 of your transcript. That's the

4 transcript from that interview. The ERN number is 0059-6125.

5 A. Yes, I see it. That's my statement.

6 Q. As this is a transcript, this is probably a verbatim transcript of

7 what you said; is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What I would like to know is the following. You say: "We had to

10 transfer these civilians to the hospital." I want to know what "had to"

11 means. Who was it who issued this decision? Who reached the conclusion

12 that civilians had to be transferred and who issued the order?

13 A. Around the 18th, we came to understand that all resistance was

14 over. I don't think the precise date is mentioned here. This decision

15 was finally made when the woman in the white flag turned up who has been

16 mentioned more than once, yesterday and today. And then it was said that

17 civilians and whoever else wanted to go to Serbia should go to the piazza;

18 those who didn't want to go to Serbia should go to the hospital. And then

19 we transferred the civilians as I described. I helped the women, the

20 children, the elderly, and I showed the way to the hospital.

21 Q. Sir, I understand that. But what do you mean by "we had to," why

22 this compulsiveness? What exactly was the reason that you had to?

23 These civilians had in no way been involved in the fighting. What was the

24 reason for so urgently taking them across to the hospital?

25 A. This woman carrying a white flag came over, and she said it loud

Page 9875

1 and clear, those who wanted to go towards the army should head for the

2 square, and those who wanted to go back to Croatia were to go to the

3 hospital. She appeared to be in possession of some sort of information.

4 She looked quite dependable as she was saying this, and she was carrying a

5 white flag. This was the morning of the 19th. We realised that all

6 resistance was hopeless by this time and we just gave it up.

7 Someone came along carrying a white flag, and we all know what a

8 white flag normally means; it is a symbol of surrender. We heard what

9 this lady had to say and we decided to follow suit, to try to get our

10 civilians across to the hospital. That was our conclusion. That's my

11 conclusion, if you like.

12 Q. This was on the 19th of November, right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do you know about the surrender of the Mitnica group on the 18th

15 and about the civilians from Mitnica, what became of them?

16 A. I know now, but I -- or we had no inkling at the time of their

17 surrender.

18 Q. Prior to your arrival at the hospital on the 19th, did you know

19 about any attempts by the so-called Croatian army and the town's defenders

20 to leave Vukovar, to escape from Vukovar and what became of those

21 attempts?

22 A. I know that there were attempts, but I didn't know at the time

23 what, if anything, those attempts had come to.

24 Q. Did anyone offer you as a defender of Vukovar to leave Vukovar in

25 this way?

Page 9876

1 A. I wanted to leave with a group that included Marin Mercep. I was

2 asleep, having stood guard for some time, that was two or three days

3 previously, that was between the 15th and the 18th. I was asleep, and

4 they simply failed to inform me that they would be off. They just left

5 town, and I stayed behind. I later heard that there were other groups

6 heading out, but I did not wish to join them.

7 Q. So the reason you didn't go was the fact that you happened to be

8 asleep at the time, right?

9 A. It may sound strange, but that is a fact. If you stand outside in

10 the cold for 12 hours in a row, the next morning you're likely to be

11 knackered, aren't you?

12 Q. So you wake up the next morning, you realise that your fellow

13 fighters are gone, your commander is gone. As far as I understand, he is

14 at the hospital by this time, right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So what do you do?

17 A. Nothing. I was just there with those civilians. I do have to say

18 that there were close contacts with those people -- or, rather, we were

19 close by this time. We had been through a lot together. They trusted me.

20 I was the one who brought them food. The children looked at me as though

21 I was some sort of Santa Claus. I always had bubble-gums in my pockets to

22 divvy out to these kids.

23 We didn't do much, really. We just sat there. There was an air

24 of uncertainty surrounding the whole situation, and we were afraid to even

25 think of what would become of us.

Page 9877

1 For the last two days, there were no operations going on. We used

2 up whatever old stale bread we still had and some that we managed to bake

3 ourselves. As for our water supplies, there was less than a glass -- a

4 daily glass per person.

5 Q. Sorry, I will have to interrupt you here. I'm just asking what

6 you eventually did.

7 A. You asked me what I was doing, the he answer is nothing, nothing

8 much.

9 Q. What time it was when you eventually reached the hospital?

10 A. This was sometime in the morning hours, but I can't be more

11 specific.

12 Q. How many civilians were in that group that came with you?

13 A. I would say several hundreds, between 600 and 700 civilians left.

14 There were about 500 from the nuclear shelter. And perhaps another one or

15 200 joined on the way, people who were leaving the residential buildings.

16 Across Olajnica.

17 Q. This was on the 19th in the morning hours. I just wish to have

18 that confirmed because it's not reflected in the transcript.

19 A. Quite correct, yes.

20 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, would this be a good

21 time for our break?

22 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: It is, indeed, Mr. Bulatovic.

23 We are going to have a break of a half hour because there is a

24 need for a redaction.

25 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, before Your Honour leaves, if that's all

Page 9878

1 right, with regard to the next witness Grujic, I've actually requested

2 that he remain just in case it's feasible for that witness to be started.

3 I have looked at my re-examination, and I believe it will be very short.

4 So I don't know if that assists my learned friends in any way.

5 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Mr. Bulatovic, you said one hour and a

6 half, so perhaps we may be able to reach it?

7 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] An hour, an hour and a quarter

8 perhaps. I hope that I will be able to finish this witness and leave the

9 rest to Mr. Moore. I don't think he will need so much time in

10 re-examination, but -- I really don't know how we can do this. We should

11 be done by 4.30. I only have 45 minutes. I really have no idea how

12 Mr. Moore can re-examine this witness. I will try to wrap this up as fast

13 as I possibly can. I will try to stick to my previous promise. I am not

14 sure what the chances are though.

15 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: [Previous translation continues] ... on

16 that, Mr. Bulatovic. Thank you.

17 --- Recess taken at 3.18 p.m.

18 --- On resuming at 3.48 p.m.


20 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 Q. Let us continue, sir. Were you asked by Mr. Vasic a question, and

22 you said that you knew about some of those arriving in the hospital

23 putting bandages on with no injuries or applying plaster-casts on

24 different parts of their bodies and some of them were putting on white

25 overcoats in order to pass themselves off as medical staff?

Page 9879

1 A. Yes, quite correct.

2 Q. What I want to know is how many of those who had bandages with no

3 injuries. Can you tell us that, sir?

4 A. I know about two, three perhaps.

5 Q. What about their names?

6 A. I don't remember.

7 Q. Do you know about the number of people who had plaster-casts

8 applied for no reason at all?

9 A. I am referring to that whole group, plaster-casts and bandages, I

10 would say is comprised two or three individuals whose names I'm not aware

11 of.

12 Q. What about the number of people who put on white overcoats?

13 A. Without being medical staff, you mean?

14 Q. Yes.

15 A. The same figure; two or three of them.

16 Q. You said that on the 19th there was an evacuation of civilians to

17 the Velepromet facility. On the 19th during the evacuation, did you see

18 Vesna Bosanac anywhere inside the hospital?

19 A. No, I didn't. Not at the time.

20 Q. What about Dr. Juraj Njavro?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Does the name Zeljka Zgonjanin ring a bell?

23 A. No, it doesn't. It's not familiar.

24 Q. Zeljka, Zeljka, it's actually a lady.

25 A. There was a lady named Zeljka. I didn't know her surname. She

Page 9880

1 was a member of the Vukovar Red Cross.

2 Q. That is precisely the person I'm talking about. I want to know

3 whether she was involved in the evacuation on the 19th. Is this something

4 you are aware of? I'm talking about the evacuation of civilians to

5 Velepromet.

6 A. Yes, I got that. I'm just thinking. Not as far as I know, she

7 wasn't.

8 Q. During your time at the hospital on the 19th, and the 20th, did

9 you hear people talking about the civilians possibly being taken to

10 Velepromet?

11 A. Yes, people were talking about that.

12 Q. You talked about this officer who you described when prompted by

13 Mr. Vasic. He came along, he gave that order for men to be separated off,

14 some to the left and some to the right, you said he was about 50 years

15 old. What I want to know is, do you think you would be able to recognise

16 this man if you saw him again? Is his face lodged in your memory?

17 A. No, I don't think I would be able to identify that person.

18 Q. Can we have Exhibit 338 shown, please? The ERN number is -- I'm

19 sorry, 0036-6995. This is Exhibit 338. Not the photograph. 0036-6995.

20 And this is 6973, so what I want is 6995. There we go.

21 Sir, have a look, please. Look at this photograph closely. Is

22 this an environment that you recognise?

23 A. I don't think I saw this at the time, but I recognise this to be

24 the nuclear shelter in the basement of the hospital.

25 Q. In this photograph you see a man wearing a uniform, right?

Page 9881

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Might that perhaps be the officer you saw at the Vukovar Hospital

3 on the 20th of November?

4 A. I can't be certain.

5 Q. But you can't rule out the possibility, can you?

6 A. You're quite right. I can't.

7 Q. Aside from this officer, the officer you have mentioned, the

8 officer who ordered for the men to be separated off in the way that you

9 described, did you see any other officers arriving at the Vukovar Hospital

10 with this one?

11 A. I don't remember about inside the hospital, several officers.

12 Q. You have your statement in front of you; you gave this statement

13 to the centre for gathering information and processing data regarding the

14 Homeland War. The date is the 6th of July, 1994. Can you find that

15 statement for us, sir?

16 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] For the benefit of my learned

17 friends, the ERN number is 2746, being the last four digits.

18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't get the first four

19 digits.

20 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Sir, have you got that?

22 A. Could I have the date, please?

23 Q. The 6th of July, 1994.

24 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't catch the witness's

25 answer.

Page 9882

1 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Have you got that?

3 A. Yes, I do.

4 Q. Would you please read paragraph 2, which reads: "On the 20th of

5 November in the morning."

6 A. "On the 20th of November in the morning at around 8.00 a group of

7 JNA officers arrived and ordered for the women, children and wounded who

8 could still move about to leave the hospital compound. After that we" --

9 Q. Thank you, thank you, thank you. I'm not interested in the rest

10 of this. Is this your statement?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Do you see a reference there to a group of officers who arrived in

13 the hospital and ordered -- and so on and so forth. So not just one, a

14 group of them in fact?

15 A. Yes. If back in 1994 I said there were several, that should be

16 more accurate than what I'm saying now. This was 12 years ago. My memory

17 was a lot more vivid.

18 Q. Do you then allow for the possibility that the officer you have

19 mentioned who was conducting the frisking and those other ones was perhaps

20 not the only officer checking the injuries of those inside the hospital?

21 A. I do allow for that possibility, yes. Especially in view of the

22 fact that they might have been in other rooms, rooms that I was not in

23 myself. I was in the hospital hall. I didn't go anywhere else.

24 Q. You talked about a list. And then names were called out based on

25 that list of hospital patients?

Page 9883

1 A. That's quite right.

2 Q. Do you remember how many names exactly were called out from this

3 list?

4 A. About five or six names, as far as I remember. Up to 10, perhaps.

5 Q. All the names were called out and at this point one of those

6 officers told you to leave and go outside. How much time elapsed between

7 the order and the time you eventually left the hospital?

8 A. A couple of minutes. Two or three minutes.

9 Q. From the moment you left the hospital building to the moment the

10 officer arrived that you identified as Veselin Sljivancanin, how much time

11 elapsed between these two things happening?

12 A. Five to 10 minutes, perhaps.

13 Q. You referred in your testimony to a number of names of people who

14 were on the bus with you and who went to Ovcara with you. What I want to

15 know is: Were any of the people you mentioned standing there with you

16 before the frisking began? Do you remember anyone? Could you name anyone

17 who was standing there with you?

18 A. I don't remember anyone who was there during the frisking. But

19 there are two lines of people lined up against the wall, and your angle of

20 vision does not really cover a lot of your surroundings. You see the two

21 men standing right next to you on either side but not much else.

22 Q. We know about that officer who you described the way you did. You

23 identified this officer as Veselin Sljivancanin. Can you tell me exactly

24 what he was wearing?

25 A. He was wearing a uniform, a Tito cap, and military boots.

Page 9884

1 Q. What sort of uniform? Was this the traditional olive-drab

2 uniform?

3 A. No, it wasn't. I think some components of the uniform were

4 camouflage.

5 Q. Where was his rank displayed?

6 A. I know nothing about ranks.

7 Q. I didn't ask you to define the person's rank?

8 A. I didn't hear you properly. Can you please repeat your question?

9 Q. Where did he have his rank displayed?

10 A. I don't remember seeing his rank displayed on the uniform.

11 Q. You say Sljivancanin stayed there for about 15 minutes. And then

12 you left for the buses and you didn't see Sljivancanin after that. Is

13 that correct?

14 A. Yes, that's quite correct.

15 Q. You didn't see him at the barracks when the buses arrived, did

16 you?

17 A. I did not see him again, full stop.

18 Q. So you didn't see him at the barracks, and you didn't see him at

19 Ovcara. We agree on that?

20 A. We definitely do.

21 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we have

22 Exhibit 256 shown, photograph number 13. The ERN is 0053-1243.

23 Q. Do you see the photograph, sir?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you recognise the buildings in the photograph?

Page 9885

1 A. This is a bird's eye view of the Vukovar barracks.

2 Q. Perhaps the usher could help you and hand you a pen, which you can

3 use to make markings on the screen.

4 Can you please mark where the buses were at the time you were

5 brought into the barracks? Try to mark this semi-circle, the disposition

6 of the buses that were parked there. Can you mark that, please? After

7 that I would like to ask you to use a special mark for your own bus.

8 A. Fine. It was like this. This is how the buses arrived, like

9 this. [Marks]. And I think there was one bus right here. [Marks]. The

10 next one was parked just in front of it. This was the third bus.

11 [Marks]. The fourth bus. [Marks]. And the fifth bus. [Marks]. This

12 was the arrangement, the spacial arrangement, roughly speaking.

13 My own bus was right here. I am circling my own bus and I'm

14 marking it with a number 1. [Marks].

15 Q. Fine, thank you. Were you seated on the left-hand side of the bus

16 or on the right-hand side?

17 A. On the right-hand side. The seats at the rear, at the rear door.

18 The two extra seats, auxiliary seats.

19 Q. When you arrived it was quiet at first, if I understand you

20 correctly, and then some paramilitaries arrived?

21 A. There was a lot of commotion from the moment we got there. There

22 was a turmoil. Threats were being made. A lot of people milling about,

23 wearing all sorts of different uniforms, peering through the bus windows,

24 yelling at us, brandishing knives. It was in this area that they smashed

25 some sort of civil protection closet and extracted from it some spades and

Page 9886

1 axes. They splintered some sort of a log that was there. All they kept

2 were handles. They said they would go and sharpen their knives, and then

3 we heard the sound of knives being sharpened.

4 Q. Fair enough. We heard that yesterday.

5 Let me ask you this: On your way out of the hospital, or at least

6 this is what you indicated in your statement to the OTP, you said names

7 were called out by this officer holding a list. He called out the names

8 of some people, including the three Dosen brothers?

9 A. So we're back at hospital now, right?

10 Q. My apologies. I seem to have got my chronology in a twist, so I

11 think I skipped that previously.

12 The three Dosen brothers were taken away and you never saw them

13 again; is that right?

14 A. Quite right.

15 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I seek that this

16 marked photograph be admitted into evidence.

17 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: It will be received.

18 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 529, Your Honours.

19 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation]. We don't need the photograph now.

20 The usher is now free to go back to his seat. Thank you.

21 Q. The buses at Ovcara, how were those emptied? One by one and then

22 on to the hangar, or all at the same time?

23 A. One by one, and people got off the bus on an individual basis.

24 One by one. Not en masse, as it were. As soon as someone got off the bus

25 this person would immediately be beaten, and the buses were parked in such

Page 9887

1 a way to make it possible for people to go straight into the gauntlet.

2 Q. Did you see what was happening to the buses which had just been

3 emptied, were they moved elsewhere or did they just leave them right

4 there?

5 A. I didn't see that.

6 Q. Based on all of your statements I noticed that you draw a

7 distinction between the regular JNA, the so-called JNA on the one hand,

8 and Chetniks on the other. Would that seem to be a fair assessment, sir?

9 A. By all means.

10 Q. This gauntlet that was set up, did that comprise any JNA men,

11 members of the regular JNA?

12 A. I really can't say. Most of the men standing there -- or, rather,

13 some of the men standing there were wearing JNA uniforms but they were

14 slightly older and they were more unkempt than regular JNA recruits. They

15 struck me as TO members who were wearing the same kind of uniform,

16 generally speaking. There were some people in that gauntlet wearing no

17 uniforms, no proper uniforms at all, but who were displaying Chetnik

18 insignia, cockades, long beards, long hair, that sort of thing.

19 Q. You are a local from Vukovar. Did you notice any local faces

20 there in that gauntlet?

21 A. At the far end there were several of those, yes. I recognised

22 one.

23 Q. Once you were inside the hangar what time was it, roughly

24 speaking? Do you remember that?

25 A. I can't really be very specific at all, but you could have a

Page 9888

1 proper time-line if you go from dusk backwards, or the other way around,

2 but it's very difficult for me to say exactly what time it was.

3 Q. You remember there being a desk inside the hangar and someone

4 seated at that desk obviously trying to draw up a list of people inside

5 the hangar?

6 A. I don't remember that, no.

7 Q. Do you remember a rope inside the hangar used to separate the

8 groups of people inside?

9 A. What sort of rope are you talking about separating groups of

10 people inside?

11 Q. Let me clarify this. We have heard evidence here that there was a

12 rope inside the hangar?

13 A. I know what a rope is.

14 Q. This rope was strung the whole breadth of the hangar in order to

15 separate the various groups of people inside, to keep them apart?

16 A. I don't remember that particular detail.

17 Q. Apart from the officer you described who had a whistle, and you

18 told us why you thought he was a security officer, and that was because

19 the person who gave him the list told you he was a security officer, were

20 there other people there who you think were officers?

21 A. Along with him there were two others, or three, who I thought were

22 officers. JNA officers, that is. I recognised them by their uniforms,

23 ranks, Tito caps, and because they were older than the others.

24 Q. Were these junior or senior officers? Can you tell us something

25 about their age, their uniforms, their ranks?

Page 9889

1 A. They wore olive-drab uniforms, they had ranks on their shoulders,

2 they wore Tito caps. They were aged around 40 or 45 and up.

3 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we move into private session

4 now?


6 [Private session]

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 9890











11 Pages 9890-9897 redacted. Private session.















Page 9898

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 [Open session]

7 MR. MOORE: Might being advisable to do it tomorrow morning.

8 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Yes. So we shall do it tomorrow

9 morning.

10 Then unfortunately, Witness, we can't finish today, so you will

11 have to come back tomorrow morning, but it hopefully will be very short.

12 So we will resume and gather tomorrow at 9.00 because we have a

13 morning session.

14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.34 p.m.,

15 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 1st day of June,

16 2006, at 9.00 a.m.